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July 6, 2023 - Jim Fetzer
49:57
The New JFK Show #286 The Ruby Transcripts
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Welcome to the new JFK Show.
Gary King's temporarily missing in action, and I'm, of course, recovering from double bypass.
But I wanted to get back on the air, especially when Larry has so much good stuff to report.
Tonight he's going to be talking about the Jack Ruby trial transcript, and related, among other Events, publications to JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglas, which many of us admire greatly, even though we may regard it as having its own flaws, which is unsurprising since there is yet to be published the unflawed work of anyone,
Larry, I'm making you the host, my friend, so you can carry on from here.
It's yours.
And I'm going to do my best to aid and abet, but under the circumstances, it may be limited.
Larry, yours.
Sure, sure, sure.
Well, first of all, I'm very happy to see that you're well on the way to recovery.
All right.
And that's the number one thing is the health.
And I myself had been indisposed for about a month because of a situation, a personal situation where my mom was in an accident, a car accident.
So that has, you know, taken up a lot of my time lately.
Now she's recovered quite well.
She's still going to be recovering for the next couple of months, but You know, it's not as bad as it was a month ago.
So, we had talked about these transcripts that have come out since, I believe, 2015 or 2016.
Now, this is not the first time that they have come out.
In fact, in the Warren Commission, and I have, if I can get the, so I can share the screen here real quick.
I've given you a host, so you're all set.
And we did this right after the information came out, because there's still a lot of good information in the complete transcripts.
I believe there's more than 2,000 pages of these.
And Mark Shaw, who did a book on Dorothy Kilgallen, investigated Melvin Belli, the attorney, who was supposedly there to defend Jack Ruby's interests, when in fact he was brought in to sabotage the thing, the whole Jack Ruby trial, and make him look like a lone nut.
You know, one lone nut kills another lone nut.
You know?
I don't know if you remember George de Morenschild, There's an interview of him, and he's actually mocking this.
He's saying, you know, I can't believe, you know, this only happens, you know, in America, where, you know, one lone nut takes out the president, and another lone nut takes out the assassin.
You know, the lone nut who did the... You know, so... Of course, it's ridiculous on its face.
Yeah, so... Jack Ruby and his trial happened In 1964, went from March the 4th to 14th, and obviously the guilty verdict was rendered.
And he had a group here of lawyers led, like I said, by Melvin Belli, but Joe Tonehill, who was actually the only one who tried to advance Ruby's interests, you know, and bring in
Certain angles of the case here, and it's very interesting because if you read the transcripts, you can tell that Belli is pulling one way and Tonehill is pulling the other way, all right?
So Belli was a sham cover lawyer, whereas Tonehill was actually trying to give him a defense.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Why not surprise?
No, of course not.
So from the beginning, he tried to paint him as local, you know, and attempting to make it an open and shut case based on, and this is really something, you know, because it's laughable, you know, a state of mind that only happened on November the 24th as a result of a rare variant of epilepsy, which could be temporary or permanent.
Well, look at it, Larry.
We know that the whole shooting was fake.
So they had to make up something that would give Ruby a reason not to remember the action they're claiming he perpetrated when he did not do so.
So it's going to have to be something fantastic.
I mean, this is so improbable.
It's beyond reason to accept this as a defense.
Yeah.
And the thing about all this is that where Dorothy Kilgallen inserts herself into this and goes to Dallas and starts to dig.
Heck, one of the first things she dug when she got to Dallas was that it wasn't William Whaley who was the first cab driver.
It was a guy named Daryl Click.
And that was in the newspapers and everything.
So, I mean, she gets to Dallas and, you know, people are shaking, you know, because she's there.
She's there investigating.
And that's another thing that I have to give women, the women of JFK, that I say, a lot of credit.
A lot of the early investigation and impulse to, you know, to clarify what was going on came from women.
You know.
Mary Farrell, Beverly Benson.
Beverly, yeah, you name it.
Outstanding examples.
Shirley, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know.
So, that's why I always, you know, like to give them their proper place, you know, in the JFK investigation thing.
Now, the unwritten rule, of course, was not to bring any witnesses who might have associated Ruby with Lee, and of which there were plenty.
All right.
Belli tried to change, unsuccessfully change the venue, having noted that no juror had missed Ruby shoot Lee Oswald on TV, obviously.
And as a result, the prosecution, which was led by Henry Wade and Bill Alexander, that was a cream of the crop there, was able, they were able to get that quick guilty verdict, you know.
Now, once the trial ended, the defense appealed, And obviously, you know, they saw, you know, so much malfeasance here that the verdict was tossed out in order to do a retrial, you know.
And this is from the website that actually comments on the trial.
how this whole thing ended up getting a new trial, and then Ruby conveniently dying of a rare stomach or cancer, the liver, They found liver in his liver, brain, lungs.
Might that have been related to perhaps Judy's work?
Absolutely.
A hundred percent.
Yes.
And of course, if it were not for Ralph and Kay, we'd still think that Jack Ruby had shot Leo Oswald.
So I got to give Ralph a compliment when deserved, even though in other regards, I think he's gone off the wall.
Oh, there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, Especially that incident where they put the bag over the guy's head.
You'll see it in a bit.
I wish Gary was here.
He's got it tucked away somewhere.
So, like I said, I was talking about Mark Shaw and he went and he did presentations because he's written two books.
One on Dorothy Kilgallen and one on Belli.
Okay, and now we all know that she met an untimely and suspicious death by suicide, where she joins a long list of convenient deaths.
All right, which we know is so prevalent in this case.
And, you know, and she was the only one who was allowed to spend precious private time with Jack Ruby alone.
Yes.
And then she publicly stated that she was close to breaking the case wide open.
Which I think led to her untimely demise.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
So, like I said, the transcripts, the full transcript collection finally, you know, rears its ugly head because, you know, there's stuff there that still, you know, has not been clarified.
Mark, for example, has declared these a real smoking gun on the assassination, you know, and where all these books that have been published before these transcripts came out might as well just be thrown, you know, into the trash can.
And he includes James Douglas's book, which we're going to just very briefly go over something very interesting that he writes in his book.
You know, and one of the things that I agree with him is that he really goes after the Sixth Floor Museum, you know, as the main purveyor of the Lone Nut.
We all know that.
Did its disinformation campaign, which of course has been thoroughly disproved and discredited in the 21st century.
And we all know that that's the house that Larry Dunkle built, and talking about, of course, Gary Mack.
And So, after finding the transcripts, and I received emails from other people who have looked at this, and here's one that they had never seen, which was the entire witness list, all right?
And very interesting, because obviously, you know, a lot of people that we know here from the DPD, Lavelle, Graves, you know, Rose was the forensic guy.
Yeah, he's a medical examiner.
Right.
Fritz, you know, let's see, John Neumann, but not Bill Neumann, it's Newnham.
And we're going to talk about him now.
He's very important in this whole thing.
Because he worked at the Dallas Morning News, okay?
And Jack Ruby was at his desk all during, before and during the assassination.
Right.
And there's other confirmation on that.
And here you go, Wes Weiss.
Now James Shaney, that's our James Shaney, one of the JFK horsemen.
Right.
You know, and I've been trying to find his transcript, and we're looking for it, you know, in all these pages that were released, but his testimony is not there.
Very, very strange there.
So, Jack Beers, Jack Revelle, Audrey Bell from Parkland, Harkness, another cop, Patrick Dean, okay, Gus Rose.
So, and here is a cover of the docket, all right, and all this good stuff.
Now, the reason that this stuff is important is because The people who have followed the show in the past know that we talked about Jerry Coley and the pool of blood, and how his co-worker Jim Hood, when he was a photographer for the Dallas Morning News, he went and took pictures of the pool of blood at the top of the country steps there before the pergola.
Okay?
And I have to go here in this direction.
One such case of reinterpretation happens to be related to a blog post that I did, and it's also mentioned in the book, six years ago on Jerry Coley and the Pool of Blood.
Now, he had an interview with Len Osanic, okay?
Probably one of the best pieces of information that Glenn has ever put out, I have to say.
You know?
And where he mentioned the two co-workers of his at Dallas Morning News.
And these guys were Don Campbell and John Noonan.
Now Don Campbell is also here on the list.
Very, very important.
Okay?
Because he's one of the confirmations on the whereabouts of Jack Ruby.
But it's very, very interesting, because these three guys had breakfast and coffee with Jack Ruby at 8.30 in the cafeteria of the Dallas Morning News that morning, because Jack Ruby used to put his ads in every Friday for the weekend of the Carousel Club, okay?
And, you know, all the Whatever entertainment was going to be happening that weekend.
So he had the, he was on, he was in the habit of doing that every, every Friday morning.
So he knew these guys, you know, and they would have breakfast together and talk and shoot the breeze and talk about sports and whatever, especially boxing.
You know, one of the things that I was amazed was that Jack Ruby, one of his best friends was a, a, a boxer by the name of, let me see if he's here.
Actually, a Jewish boxer, and they were both in the army together, and Jack Grewe was very close to him.
In fact, they brought him as a character witness, because he was still around at the time, but he was retired.
So, these next four pages that we see here are Don Campbell's testimony, and as you can see, Jerry Coley, who had the best information of all, Obviously about the pool of blood, he's conspicuously absent from any mention whatsoever, you know?
That's why it is so important to, you know, you get pieces of information here and there.
Now, we've listened to this Jerry Coley, and he is extremely lucid, even though he's in his probably early 80s now, okay?
And everything that he said was true and checked out, you know?
So, and we talked about, in that show, about Charlie Mulkey and Jim Hood, okay, knew about the pool of blood at the top of the country steps, and the fact that Hood had taken pictures, photos of, which were confiscated by the FBI the following Monday morning.
Of course.
Furthermore, no, and the way in which it was done, you know, you'll see.
Furthermore, Coley's name had been in the news when Hugh Ainsworth, of all people, wrote an article that reported that Ruby, that Friday morning, having coffee with Coley, but not Campbell.
Okay?
Or Newnham, for that matter.
The article cited Coley at the news.
That's why the FBI came looking for Jerry the following Monday morning, not Campbell.
And Given this information, the prosecution had to tread very carefully around Don Campbell's testimony.
If you look at this, it's very superficial, you know.
They just wanted to know where he was, at what time, you know, what they did, you know.
But, you know, they don't even go in and, okay, where were the other guys, you know?
Was somebody else there?
Okay?
And it doesn't happen.
And the same thing happens, okay?
With Noonan.
Now, Noonan had been interviewed by the FBI later on, on December the 4th.
Okay?
Both of them.
Now, and Coley was never formally interviewed by the FBI.
In fact, he was told to forget everything he witnessed and to shut the hell up.
That's all in the, you know, you have to go to that blog, that blog post that I did six years ago, and all the information is there.
But that's, you know, Basically what happened was, you know, once that article came out by Ainsworth, he started getting threatening phone calls because, you know, the way it was laid out, it sort of gave the idea that maybe Coley, you know, had something to do with Ruby and helping him in some way.
So he starts getting threatening phone calls, you know, and his wife starts to, you know, receive these calls, you know, and That's what really hit the fan there.
It was Coley, who really was in deep water because of the pool of blood, and they really had to shut him up.
So, December the 4th, John Noonan, who is the other guy in the advertising department there, and he gets interviewed by the FBI, okay, and he confirms that when he arrived in the office,
And I'm talking about after the assassination, so it says here that he goes down, they went down there, I believe at 1225, now he comes back at 1240, okay, 10 minutes after the assassination, and Jack Ruby is sitting at his desk, alright?
And a short time after that, It's Jerry Coley.
And this is the first time they mentioned him.
They don't mention Jerry about the pool of blood at all.
He comes in and he states that the president has been shot.
And what's interesting is that Newnham at the time did not know that the president had been shot.
He finds out from Jerry Coley.
Okay.
So everyone in the room and the people that were there and they turn on the TV, you know, and all this, you know, and then Ruby doesn't leave until 1.30.
Okay.
Could not state the exact time, but he estimated it to be around 1.30.
Then again, that's an FBI document, you know, just take it whichever way you want.
So like I said, both of them had left the building before 12.25 to watch the parade, okay?
But you could see the parade from afar, from that northwest corner of the Dallas Morning News building.
You know, you could see the cards and you could see them going up Houston and then turning Elms and whatever.
Okay?
So... Similarly, Coley's co-worker, John Noonan, is called by the prosecution.
Okay?
The prosecution.
And... He tells them, you know, uh, what's your profession, you know, your occupation, you know, how long you've been working there and whatever, blah blah.
You know, uh...
Would you recall whether or not that was the day the President did the parade I did?
You see Jack here in this courtroom?
Uh-huh.
When you got back to the office at 1240, was he there?
Yes, he was.
Okay, so he's confirming.
Okay?
And that he was sitting at his desk.
How long he had seen him.
You know, the whole gist of the relationship, you know?
And...
Right here goes, where was he?
He was sitting at my desk, yeah.
Okay?
And what Jack, you know, it was customary for him to do, you know.
So, there's a passage here that says how long it took for him to walk back, okay?
So he says 10 or 12 minutes.
It's here somewhere.
And that's one of the things that I found very interesting because if he goes and he walks from Dealey Plaza back to the Dallas Morning News, 10 to 12 minutes, and he's a young guy, so we can use that as a yardstick for
James Autchins making it back to the Dallas Morning News from a much farther away position at the scene of the crime on Elm, and where he was captured in a lot of photos hanging around Daly Plaza well after the assassination, okay?
Where this admission here, as far as I'm concerned, says, you know, this throws away any remaining idea that Alton's could have made it back on time to get the Alton 6 out at $12.57 or $1.03, obviously not true, okay?
So I just put that as an aside, okay?
But here's what's really, really interesting, okay?
Because they bring in this guy, Garnett Claude Hallmark, and he ran the Allwright parking business at 1208 Commerce.
Okay.
And they asked him, you know, did you see Ruby that Saturday?
Okay.
So Ruby shows up at his place of business to borrow the telephone on the afternoon of the 23rd.
According to Hallmark, Ruby made two phone calls.
His attorney, Joe Tonehill, wanted to make sure the second phone call was brought into the record.
Now, Tonehill is the one that we just mentioned.
He's fighting for Ruby, you know?
Obviously, it wasn't Belli who would, you know, bring this into the record.
He wanted to establish that Jack had been roaming.
Tonehill also wanted to establish that Jack had been roaming the halls of City Hall, playing the part of a reporter and mixing in with many reporters who had arrived in Dallas to cover the assassination.
Okay.
And right here, Tona Hill, and he goes, what was the occasion?
The 22nd or the 23rd?
The 23rd, Saturday afternoon.
What did he say with reference to being a reporter, if anything?
He said he was making like a reporter.
Now, the phrase, making like a reporter, was mentioned twice in here.
It's a little bit at the top here.
But yeah, Which of course made reference to Ruby's known presence at City Hall the night before, where he even corrected Henry Wade when he mentioned Lee's involvement in the pro-Cuba committee, and Ruby responding that it was the fair play for Cuba committee, of course.
And then Ruby asked for Wes Weiss, and this is a conversation of the parking guy, you know, Hallmark, okay?
This is the testimony of him.
And it said, no.
Making like a report?
Yes.
While dialing the number, did Ruby ask you anything that you recall?
No.
He commented about what had happened to the president.
It was terrible.
Did he mention anything with reference to the Colony Club?
Yes.
He asked if the Colony Club would be open.
And what did you say?
I told him I don't know.
Okay.
And a little further down, Okay.
Now, how about the next one?
Phone call, okay?
Did you know who he asked for, or did he ever get who he was calling, or couldn't you tell for sure?
And he said he was asking for Wes Weiss.
So, this second call is to the radio station where Wes Weiss worked, and he's obviously has some kind of information for him, okay?
So the concept of Wes Weiss having a relationship with Jack Ruby is new.
And we're going to see why Wes Weiss is important in this narrative here.
You were very close to hear what he was saying.
Is that right?
Yes.
Now, Tona Hill appeared to continue to defend Ruby's interests, and at that point drew attention to the fact that, as witnessed by Hallmark, Ruby told whoever he was talking to that he would be there.
He would be there.
Then, inexplicably, he changed the subject to make change for a $10 bill.
I mean, that's, you know, that you would not expand on that is, I mean, if you want to, you know, No, it's bizarre, you're right.
Yeah, clearly he said something he didn't mean to say.
Yeah, and so now we have this comment here of Ruby saying that he would be there, and it opens up obviously a whole new aspect to this.
But the gist of the testimony appears to show that Jack was scouting the Dallas Police Department on Main and Houston, attempting to find out exactly when the Oswald transfer from City Hall to the County Jail at the DPD would take place.
Now, don't forget, Jack can go in and out, you know.
DPD, we already saw him at the Midnight Conference, you know.
He went and he took sandwiches, remember, to the cops and everything.
Uh, and he was in and out of there, so he knew what was going on inside the DPD.
So he's feeding, he's trying to feed this to Weiss so that Weiss could get the scoop, so to speak.
All right?
So obviously, you know, there was a delay and it didn't happen until the next day.
So, but when they, they, uh, when Weiss, uh, uh, was, uh, We're gonna see now.
He made it look like Jack was some kind of crazy ass groupie, you know, just trying to, you know, be at the place, you know, where it happened and talk to important people, you know, and that's not the case at all.
Now, I want to stop this share here and I want to go to.
It sounds like Weiss is trying to cover his ass.
Oh, we're going to see now.
OK.
Here we go.
Now, for those who are familiar with this book, JFK and the Unspeakable, and he witnessed something very, very important on the day of the assassination.
And so on December the 4th, at that time, he was a newscaster specializing in sports.
Okay, and he gave a luncheon to talk to the Oak Cliff Exchange Club at El Chico's Restaurant.
At the urging of his listeners, he changed his topic from sports to the President's assassination, which Weiss had covered.
He described to his luncheon audience how he, as a reporter, had become a part of Jack Ruby's story.
Weiss's encounter with the man he knew as a news groupie came on the grassy knoll the day before Ruby shot Oswald.
Okay?
Weiss had just completed a somber day-after-assassination radio newscast from the site Bank with Reese.
While he sat in his car in silent reflection beside the Texas School Book Depository, he heard a familiar voice.
Hey, Wes!
Okay?
And, you know, he sees this poorly figure, you know?
And so he's, you know, all this that you're seeing here is another angle here where Jack Ruby is trying to play him into being, you know, some kind of crazy guy, okay?
Which obviously, you know, came in very, very handy.
Okay.
Now, this is the important stuff here about Wes Weiss.
At the end of Weiss's talk.
Yeah, Weiss about his mechanic having seen Oswald.
At the end of Weiss's talk to his absorbed audience at the Oak Cliff Exchange Club, Mac Pate, who had walked across the street from his garage to listen, gave the newscaster a new lead.
He told Weiss about his mechanic having seen Oswald, and he asked to go immediately with Pate to speak with his employee.
As Wes Weiss told me in an interview four decades later, he then put a little selling job on Mr. White to reveal what he had seen.
Weiss said to the reluctant auto mechanic, well, you know, we're talking about the assassination of the President of the United States here.
Okay.
So, convinced of his duty, T.F.
White took Weiss into El Chico's parking lot and walked him step by step through his full-face encounter with Oswald.
Weiss realized the car had been parked at the center of Oswald's activity in Oak Cliff that afternoon.
One block from where Oswald got out of the taxi, six blocks south of his rooming house, eight blocks north of his arrest at Texas Theater.
Taking notes, Well, I said, I just wish you had died.
Wait, wait, wait, Larry.
I want to call you on this.
And it says in only five blocks from Tibbetts murder on a route in between the route was not in between his rooming house and the theater.
It was way off in the opposite direction from the theater.
So that's a very disturbing that partial Santa.
So, but, but, uh, yeah.
And, and this is what's so important about this, because this is the second Oswald scenario.
Where we have witnesses.
And he goes, I wish you had gotten the license number.
He says, well, here it is.
He hands it to Weiss.
He notifies the FBI of Weiss' identification of Oswald in the car parked in El Chico lot and cited the license plate number.
FBI agent Charles T. Brown Jr.
reported from an interview with Milton Love, who's Plymouth that was, Carl Amos Mather, of Garland, Texas.
Agent Brown then drove to that address.
He reported that the 1957 Plymouth-bearing license plate, PP4537, was parked in the driveway of Mathers' home in Garland, a suburb of Dallas.
Thus arose the question of how a license plate for Carl Amos Mathers Plymouth came to be seen on the Falcon in El Chico's parking lot with a man in it who looked like Oswald.
Yeah, it was a Falcon.
We jumped a little bit Okay, so, and that's the information that they had on the second Oswald, okay?
So, take it whatever way you want to, but, you know, this is another instance here of people being identified as being
Having a little bit more to do with the case than, you know, than previously known, and we only know about the Weiss-Ruby relationship because, you know, because of this, okay?
So, that's where this is going, and this is where they say that he would be there, okay?
He would be where, okay?
And then all of a sudden, Inexplicably, Tony Ho goes, I believe, then you change a $10 bill for him?
I mean, he just answered a question that says, he would be there?
Yes.
Okay?
Now, as somebody running the questions here, I would have wanted to know more about, you know, he would be where?
What was he talking about that he would be there?
You know?
So... Yeah, absolutely.
100%.
So, yeah.
You know, that's something that we only know about, you know, 50 years later, Jim, 50 something years later.
So the DPD was ready for anything that Hallmark might have said to involve Weiss with Ruby.
And this very rare letter from Detective L.D.
Stringfellow to Captain Galloway speaks for itself and was written two weeks before the trial.
And it also established the Weiss-Ruby encounter at 1 p.m., not at 3 p.m.
Okay, for whatever that's worth.
Okay, so, that's that.
Now, the letter attempted to change history by discrediting Hallmark's Weiss-Ruby connection before it came into court.
To Hallmark's credit, he never deviated and testified the truth about the conversation they had from his place of business at 250 instead of 1, like it says here in this letter here.
Now, this is Wes Weiss, and he later became mayor of Dallas.
And again, he's mentioned here in JFK and the Unspeakable.
Now, again, like I said, I already mentioned this, you know, he made, you know, Ruby come across as some kind of groupie, you know.
And that's about it here on this thing.
Ruby was a patron of the police.
He had lots of connections, free drinks, you know, I don't know, free girlfriends.
Now, I would say I put women at the top of the list.
Yeah.
And the booze and all the other stuff.
Sex is a positive influencer of behavior.
Now, a couple of issues here, Larry, I'd like to address and invite your thoughts, which include, you know, The different sightings of Oswald.
We know some of these were obvious imposters, shooting on the range, driving their car at high speed, all that nonsense.
But on the other hand, John Armstrong had made an industry out of the idea of the two Oswalds.
I am personally convinced that Oswald, the second Oswald that Armstrong recounts, was a CIA's false history for Lee so that he could return to private lives, was a personal history that they'd already established, and that if you wanted to prove there were two false, well, you had to actually prove three because you had Lee in his history.
No, no, but I found a fourth one.
I found a fourth one that he doesn't even write about in his book, and it's very well-documented, you know, Edward Varner Vance, and he picked up a guy that matched Lee Oswald completely, 100%, and he drove him from Irvin, and he brought him down to downtown Dallas, and he drove him from Irvin, and he brought him down to downtown Dallas, and that's one that is never even mentioned in his Yeah, you know, if there's space for two, there's space for three or four!
All right, let me go back then to the pool of blood, because it seems to me Most likely explanation?
I mean, you got Roscoe White there.
He's a serious guy.
We believe he may have murdered as many as 50 witnesses.
He was his body double for early in the backyard photographs.
He fired a shot.
He had to pull a shot because it would have injured Jackie, and it wound up in the grass, picked up by Lieutenant Day, and never seen again.
The pool of blood.
Would someone have tried to interfere and Roscoe shot him dead?
It was even seen by Jean Hill.
She reported the pool of blood exactly where Coley and Hood took the picture, which is so incredible, you know, that once it hit the FBI, man, it was Deep six years forever.
But what, what did Jean, did she see someone shot or stabbed?
I mean, where did the blue blood originate?
She didn't see, uh, if you look at the, uh, the bell, the bell film, you can see where she is racing up, uh, the steps.
Okay.
And her, and her red coat and everything.
And, uh, What they tried to make it out when in the FBI report or I don't know where it was that actually was a soda pop, which she had read.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or a slurpee or something like that.
Yeah.
Ridiculous.
What do you think?
What do you think, Larry, explains the pool of blood?
Well, There were actually, and I was speaking to a colleague a couple of weeks ago, and we know that there was also one at the corner of the TSBD building, the northeast corner of the TSBD there on the sidewalk.
There was also a pool of blood there, okay, and we were going back and forth on whose blood that could have been.
You know, I'm not going to go into the details, you know, but Because that's a theory still, you know, it's not even something concrete, you know.
But it could have been two.
Now, on this one, now that we have Jerry Coley, and it's inequivocal, you know, that pool of blood was up there.
Now, how it happened, I'm thinking, and you and I have talked about this many times, there was a firefight down there on Elm Street.
You know, and there were shots taken and shots received and shots, you know, and we don't see that in the Z film and we don't see that in any other photos, you know, but based on the Newcomb tapes, we know, you know, that Secret Service agents dismounted and passed the limo, at least four or five of them with arms drawn, including long guns.
All right.
And of course, Douglas Jackson, you know, says, hey man, that film has been all cut up, you know?
And Shani says, hey, you know, Har just ran right in front of me, in between the two limos, you know?
And so the result of all this and where there we now we know that there was a failed Secret Service agent who was registered as Mr. X at Parkland whose head was covered with a suit coat and they rushed him into one of the trauma rooms.
And then we never heard anything from from the guy.
You know, and Richard Hook did some pretty good research and actually found that found out the guy's name and how the family continued to receive his pension checks, you know, thereafter.
Okay, and and the and the ambulance that was running around, you know, that Beverly Brunson, you know, wrote about, you know, and.
And so, we get this totally different version of events there.
I think the most stunning, and I know that you agree with me on this one, is where Stavis Ellis says, where one of the agents took the chunk of skull From a kid, and he grabbed it and tossed it into the limo.
Hey, you know?
And I've said so many times, that's the first time that we know of the desecration of JFK's corpse there.
It started right there on Elm Street.
And I believe it was indeed the Harper Fragment they were later brought back and planted further down on the street.
Yeah, that's crazy, crazy.
And of course, the great work that Dr. Mantic has done on the Harper Fragment and And yourself on finding further down in the Z film, you know, the blowout in the back of the head, you know, on 374 and also on 343, where Jackie's glove... I love how you discovered Jackie's glove outlines the deep fact, Gary.
I mean, that's unbelievable.
How can you, you know, put something Like that, you know, not give it the proper importance, you know.
But I think AI is gonna turn this around.
I mean, it's already, we already know what happened, but what's your thoughts on AI moving forward on the case?
Well, it all depends Larry.
I mean, it's simply how it's used.
Sophisticated application of computer program that is in accordance with programming instructions and therefore you can use it to derive false conclusions as well as true.
And there are, you know, it's got to be safeguarded by original.
It's got to be safeguarded by original research, as you have been pioneering with your 3D reconstruction and the like to verify whether it's on the right track.
And then you can fine-tune what AI turns out to verify that its results are, in fact, independently corroboratable.
So what you're saying is that calibration is going to be essential.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so that you get the same set of circumstances— And program a computer to get 2 plus 2 equals 5.
I mean— Yeah, of course, of course, of course, of course.
However, if the correct AI program or routine can be applied, you know, obviously, you know, the man in the doorway is going to be number one.
And going back that now, it's been eight, almost nine years, since we did that, and not a single person has come forth to refute the findings on the man in the doorway.
And especially after following the methodology that is that is Painstakingly laid out in the book, in the paper, you know, in the research, and where nobody, not a single person, Jim, has come out and said, okay, I took the same images of Love Lady, and Oswald, and The Man in the Doorway, and I have different results.
Bring them.
Right.
Which is a way of scientific— It's the beauty of science, Larry.
It's replicable, and you get the same results.
And the reason no one has undertaken to replicate David Mantic's findings is because they would get the same results and they want to conceal the fact that he blew the whole case apart.
I mean, you go back to assassination science and the unraveling of the camera was decisively established there as it had been by his and Bob Livingston presentation in 1960.
And murder in Dealey Plaza, those are essential reading, you know, and I have to, you know, if you don't, if you never,
Picked up Murder in Dealey Plaza, Assassination Science, or The Great Zapruder Film Hoax, then, I mean, you know, because those are three of the most important books, and they're still relevant today, you know, there are things that have, we've been able to move forward, you know, like The Man in the Doorway, you know, obviously, you know, The Great Zapruder Film Hoax, you know, with the people that you, that contributed to that book, you know,
Jack White, Costella, Lifton, exactly.
Those are the books that you will not see at the Sixth Floor Museum.
That's right.
It's ironic because even Vincent Bugliosi acknowledged in his massive effort to resuscitate the Warren Report reclaiming history that these were the only exclusively scientific books ever published on the assassination, and yet he ignored the conclusions.
I mean, it's so blatant, Larry.
It's so blatant.
That's right.
Thank you for wonderful stuff about Jack Ruby's trial.
When we get Gary back in the saddle, we may add to it.
I'm going to invite him to add if he might want to this rounded out to an hour even, but I'm very appreciative of this opportunity, Larry, because we want to keep the ball moving, pushing the envelope.
Yeah.
You're doing a great job of it, my friend.
Well, we still have a little ways to go, but, uh, Now with the 60th coming around, you know, and seeing that mainstream media continues to, you know, I mean, it's incredible, you know, that there is still the
Feeling, you know, in the mainstream media that Lee Oswald, you know, shot Kennedy from up there, and that's it, you know, and then Ruby did, you know.
Remember what James Files said to me, once the government takes a position it sticks with it, it will never change.
The government will never change, so it's committed to its Warren Commission conclusion, regardless of the evidence.
That's right.
Which shows this is all politics, this has nothing to do with science, investigation, truth, research.
No, no.
No, no, no, not at all, not at all.
And now that we have the information on Lee Oswald's passport, you know, and so, and everything that you just keep The latency of the fraud just grows to staggering, mind-boggling abortions.
Yeah, we're not even going to go into Mexico City.
Wonderful stuff, Larry.
That stuff has been, you know, completely... Thanks, my friend.
Gary will give this a number and add whatever he likes, but I appreciate having this opportunity to converse with you, my friend, once again.
And in the background, this is Richard's, you know, Richard Hook's 50 Points of Light.
Still relevant today.
Still relevant today.
Absolutely.
He was a good guy.
A good guy.
Yeah.
What we did was we just built on top of his research and confirmed his findings.
Very nice.
Nice ad.
All right.
Thanks so much.
Take care.
Okay.
Gary King will add an intro and a conclusion for tonight's program.
Thanks.
I can't hear you.
I can't hear you.
I said Gary King will add a conclusion and an introduction.
Okay, now.
Gary King will add an introduction and a conclusion to tonight's program.
OK.
OK.
Thanks, Larry.
OK.
Take care, Jim.
Bye now.
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