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March 14, 2023 - Jim Fetzer
01:05:49
History and Critique of Virology by Dr. Tom Cowan
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Thank you.
I'm your host, Seth Holhaus.
I think I would be safe in saying that over the past couple of years, there's been a lot of things that we've learned that we thought were true that weren't actually true.
And according to my guest today, Dr. Tom Cohen, what he's saying is that one of the biggest things that we thought was true actually isn't true.
So this is going to be an incredible interview.
And this will, I know for me, This conversation just changed my perspective of so many things as it relates especially to the health and the medical system So I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation before we jump in folks So make sure you're following me on social media at man in America and all places and Twitter.
It's at man in America us Also, every show is put out as a podcast as well So if you want to listen this at a watch just go to your favorite podcast app and search for man in America And you'll find me there All right, folks, enjoy this interview.
All right, Tom, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's an honor to have you here.
And I think that this discussion that we're going to have is going to question a lot of the very fundamental beliefs that people have.
But now is the time to do that.
So thank you for being here.
Thanks, Steph.
Good to meet you.
We haven't met before, but it's always good to talk to somebody new, and you seem like a very friendly, open, warm-hearted fellow, so I'm happy to be here with you.
I was born and raised in Ohio, so I have a lot of those Midwest niceties.
My mother is from Mansfield, Ohio.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I grew up about an hour and a half from there.
So.
Yeah.
I would like to believe that the warm presentation I have is very sincere in terms of who I am.
It feels sincere.
So that's good.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So you've actually, I'll go and pull the book up just so people can see this for conversation's sake.
So one of your recent books that you published with Sally Fallon Morrell, who I've interviewed before is a brilliant woman, is a book called The Contagion Myth.
And which is why viruses, including coronavirus, are not the cause of disease.
And so I've looked into this a little bit.
I'm no expert on it, but I understand a little bit about germ versus terrain theory.
But I'm really looking forward to this because I want you to walk me through just the thinking that we have about germs and viruses and where your conclusions have led you.
All right.
By the way, I probably would have changed that title now.
I know a lot more about this than I did three years ago, because basically my thesis will be, and I just want to say, anybody listening and including you, Seth, I absolutely don't want anybody to believe what I say unless they check my facts and think for themselves.
Right?
That's all I'm asking for.
But it turns out there is no evidence that there's any such thing as a virus.
So, not only don't they cause disease, they don't even exist.
Now, I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me, but let's go, if we can walk through the history of virology, I think you'll see what I mean.
Okay?
Is that fair enough?
Yeah, let's do it.
I'm ready.
Okay, so let's, and again, I always encourage, if you hear something that doesn't seem right, then we got to stop there and go through it.
So, the first thing is, now we're, let's just put a time frame, like 1850 or so, right?
So, what people noticed is that people in the same place would often get the same symptoms And that naturally led them to think something was transmitted from one person or one animal to the next.
Right?
We've all had that experience.
Right?
Now, that's a long way from proving that there is a particle, right?
When we talk about a virus, we're talking about a thing, right?
Not an idea or an emotion.
It's meant to be an actual physical particle.
So right now, we're talking about transmission or contagiousness of illness.
Right?
You with me?
Yeah, I'll say something quickly as it reminds me of, I'm a big fan of Little House on the Prairie, and there's a couple different episodes in that where, I'm not sure whether it's yellow fever or some of the diseases that come in and it wipes out a third of the town, and that's what I kind of go to in my mental picture when you describe that.
Right, or people saying they went to Chicken Pox and their daughter got Chicken Pox or something like that.
So, the important thing is to unpack the principle behind this.
The principle is if people in the same place get the same scent, people or animals, that proves that something is transmissible.
So how about this?
You go to a house and there's a hundred rats in your basement.
And unbeknownst to you, somebody puts rat poison in the basement, and the next day there's ten dead rats.
They all bled to death.
Same symptoms, same place, same time.
The next day, 10 more rats die.
Bleed to death, all the same thing.
Next day, 30 rats.
Next day, they're all dead.
Now, if it was true that people are animals who get the same symptoms at the same place, then we must think that rat poison is a virus or is a contagious transmissible illness.
And hopefully you would agree that that's not the case.
Yeah.
They were poisoned all together and then one got it first and then the next and the next.
And so the idea that people in the same place are animals who get sick, it's a transmissible illness, is simply not true.
Now here's another example.
For hundreds of years, people noticed that sailors on ships, their teeth got loose, and they went into heart failure, and they died.
And they said, this must be transmitted from one to the other.
So they quarantined the sailors, and they quarantined them when they went into dock, and all that.
And nothing worked.
They still died.
And it turns out that somebody gave a sailor a lemon or a lime to eat, and the whole thing went away because they had scurvy.
And that example is another one, and there's literally hundreds of examples you can give that prove that that thinking does not prove transmission, and it certainly has nothing to do with the virus.
Right?
Even if there was something transmitted, you don't know what was transmitted.
Does that sound fair enough to you?
Yeah, it does.
And not only that, it underscores the importance because for hundreds of years they treated people with scurvy by quarantining them.
Whereas if you just gave them a lemon or a lime, then they got better and the whole thing went away.
And so it makes a huge difference to be wrong about this.
As that example shows.
Or, if you happen to like rats in your basement, you just don't poison them with rat poison, and they get more and more and more, and that's a problem.
But, I think you know what I mean there.
But anyways, that led to the appropriate question, is there something on this little house in the prairie, is there something with chickenpox that's transmissible?
Okay, so that was the next step.
So then, now we're 1870s and we have a microscope.
So they look in the microscope, and here we're going to talk about viruses, not bacteria.
It's a little bit different.
And they see bacteria in some people who are sick and not others, even the same symptoms.
And in some people who were not sick, they see the bacteria, but they didn't see any virus.
And in some people who are sick, and initially it was polio, right?
They see children getting paralyzed, people getting sick.
No bacteria, nothing.
So they said, as a hypothesis, I wonder if there's something smaller than a bacteria.
Right?
That sounds like an appropriate thing.
We just can't see it.
We don't have the microscopic power.
So they did something appropriate, which is they made a filter, like a coffee filter, that the holes were the size so that they filtered out bacteria and fungus and dead cells and all the liquid part.
That would have the virus in it or something smaller, right?
They'd never seen a virus.
They didn't know what it was.
But everything soluble would go through that.
Okay?
And then, so they didn't know what was in there, and then they took that liquid part, which I think most, you would have to agree, is not a virus, right?
In the sick part, like if you take the spine of somebody with polio and you grind it up, and you filter it, there's enzymes and maybe poisons and proteins and nucleic acids and minerals, and maybe a virus.
Okay?
Got it?
Now, they took that solution and they exposed it over many years to animals and people, etc.
And they did that with smallpox, they did it with polio, they did it with the flu, they did it with many other diseases.
And I will essentially bank my career on what I'm about to say.
They were not able to demonstrate that one animal or person got sick.
Not once.
By the solution which would have contained this small particle, not with polio, not with smallpox, nothing.
Now, for me, I would have said, there's nothing in that solution that makes people sick.
So I'm done.
But that's not what happened.
So what happened, and this was particularly with polio, they took, and so you have to get the process here.
They took a child who was paralyzed.
We don't know why.
We don't see a virus.
We take some of their spine.
We grind it up in a blender.
We filter it.
We take the liquid.
We inject it into the brain of two different monkeys.
We don't do a control, meaning we don't inject saline or water or something.
One monkey died, one monkey got paralyzed.
That was the proof that polio was a transmissible disease caused by something smaller than a bacteria.
That single experiment was the proof?
That single experiment, 1908, published, that proved that there was a transmission of polio And then they did that same type of experiment over and over again.
They would take the liquid, they couldn't get any animal sick by spraying it on them or drinking it, so they would intubate them, put a tube down their throat, Stick the liquid down their throat that the animal would get a cough or you know a pneumonia and they would say that proved there was something transmissible and it was smaller than a bacteria.
Now, I don't know about you, and I don't want you to agree if you don't.
That does not prove to me, if you don't do a control, anything.
But if you're a monkey and somebody wants to inject 10 cc's of ground-up, filtered spinal goop into your brain, your best bet is to run away.
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I can't say that that proves anything either.
I mean, it might, you might think it might be the case, but it doesn't, certainly doesn't prove it because there's, there's too many other variables.
Is it, is it the human spine, you know, the DNA in the human spine that's having some sort of interaction with them or it's, Right, or proteins or something.
You'd have no idea.
So now we're talking now around 1918 and they did two famous experiments with the Spanish flu.
One is the most important called the Rocino experiment and anybody can look it up and it's in the Contagion Myth book.
So they said, okay, this is the most contagious transmissible disease ever, right?
So they took a hundred volunteers.
These were prisoners, so they made a deal with them.
We're going to expose you to people who have the active Spanish flu.
These were prisoners who never had the flu.
They made sure of that.
And they did the following.
They coughed in their face.
They took snot from their nose and injected it up their nose.
They took mucus and stuffed it down their throat.
They injected blood into them.
All 100.
And you can look it up.
Boston Health Department.
They say not one prisoner got sick.
And they repeated this, it's called the Ritchie Experiment, with some island.
Nobody got sick, and their conclusion was, this is hard to transmit, and we don't understand the mode of transmission.
Now, my conclusion would have been, this is not a contagious disease.
Period.
So if you have those two things, the solution doesn't cause an animal or person to get sick, and the whole person doesn't cause anybody to get sick, to me, you've disproven transmission.
Now then they did that with things like chickenpox lesions, right?
They had a child with a blister.
They took syringe.
They squirted it on the child with chickenpox.
Nobody got sick.
We have all the references.
You can see them.
There is no example of any Part of a sick person or any normal exposure, so I'm not talking about injecting it in their brain without a control, those sort of things.
And then you get local symptoms.
So they would take the pus out of somebody with smallpox and inject it in their arm and then they would get pus there.
That's different than transmitting an illness, especially because there's no control.
And at that point, you've not even looked for a virus, right?
All you've looked for is transmission.
Okay, so then the next thing happens, 1930s, end of 1930s, up to 1950, they invent the electron microscope.
Now, for the first time, they could see particles in the mucus of somebody with measles, in somebody with smallpox, in a chickenpox blister, and et cetera.
Now, when you realize that with an electron microscope, you take fluid, like biological material, like mucus or the blister, And you macerate it in a blender and then you freeze it to 150 degrees and then you stain it 150 degrees below zero and then you stain it with heavy metals and then you dehydrate it get all the water out and then you shoot an electron beam at it
You could say, if you did that with your hand, and I said, let's see if that is what your hand looks like.
You cut your hand off, macerate it in a blender, freeze it to minus 120 degrees, dehydrate, et cetera.
Now powder, that is not going to be what your hand looks like.
So that is not... So they have these little particles that they see under electron microscope, but they were never uniform.
Never, not once.
So they get all different kinds of particles and they say, see, that's the virus.
Now, we know now with SARS-CoV-2 and many other, that's the virus that supposedly exists to cause COVID.
There are now maybe 10 different references showing that the breakdown of tissue and cells is the origin of those particles.
Now, I can prove that to you, and I've done webinars on this.
I can show any virologist electron microscope photographs of kidney biopsies from the 90s versus what are called SARS-CoV-2, and nobody can tell the difference.
There's article in JAMA, there's article in Lancet, there's article in Nature, there's article in Kidney magazines showing that all these electron microscope pictures are the same whether they're from kidney biopsies or from these particles alleged to be viruses.
So, they realized by 1954 that there's nothing uniform, these are probably just cellular debris that we're staining, so there's no evidence of a virus.
1954.
1954, virology got saved by a guy named John Franklin Enders.
He, quote, isolated the virus for the first time.
Now, Let's just talk about that word isolation.
Isolation, I could ask you, but I'll tell you.
Isolation, and tell me if you disagree, is if I isolate a pencil, I take the pencil away from everything else, and now I have only a pencil.
Yeah.
Does that sound right?
If you drop that pencil into a five-gallon bucket and it was empty, I'd look in there and say, yes, that is an isolated pencil.
Yes.
If I want to isolate a frog from a pond...
I go to the pond, I find the frog, I take the frog out, and now I have only a frog.
If I want to isolate a hammer from a toolbox, you go to the ecosystem of the hammer where you think you'll find it, you get the hammer, show people the hammer, and the importance of that is a prerequisite for understanding, A, what a hammer does, and what it's made of.
Because if I just grind up the toolbox, I'll never know what a hammer is made of.
If I just grind up the pond water that may or may not have a frog, I'll never know what a frog is made of or what a frog does.
Make sense?
Yeah, yes.
Okay, so you gotta isolate it.
So, there are now Maybe let's take a guess.
10,000 papers that say that the title is the isolation of smallpox virus, polio virus, SARS-CoV-2, Ebola virus, HIV, Zika, etc.
10,000 papers.
And I'm saying they've never once isolated a virus.
So who's right here?
So let's go through how they did it.
It's all the devil is in the details.
So here's how Enders did it.
And you can look up the paper.
It's all over.
You know, it's in all our stuff.
They took a child who they said had measles.
Right, all the symptoms of what we call measles.
They took some of their mucus, they mixed it with milk and fetal bovine serum and cow serum and horse serum.
And then they filtered it a little bit just to get the bacteria and cells out.
So actually first they did that and then they added the serum and milk.
And then they took that liquid, which they didn't look for a virus in there, they didn't do an electron microscope, and they added that to a growing cells from monkey kidney cells.
Right?
So they take monkey kidney cells, put it in a dish, add the liquid part of a child with measles, horse serum, cow serum, fetal calf serum, milk.
Then they add antibiotics to it to kill the bacteria, which happen to be poisonous to kidney cells.
And then they withdraw the nutrients from the medium because they said, now we don't need so many nutrients.
And then they waited for three or five days, and the kidney cells died.
And they said, that means the virus has been isolated.
That's called the isolation of the virus, because they say the death of the kidney cells, called cytopathic effect, otherwise called CPE, Proves that there was a pathogenic virus in the measles snot that killed the kidney cells.
And every single isolation done from that day until now, because that guy got a Nobel Prize for something like, for doing that, you know, teaching Pete, teaching the world, it wasn't exactly what the prize was for, but it was close, for teaching the world how to find, i.e.
isolate a virus.
Now, interestingly, in his paper, the original paper, which we've gone over many times, he actually did something very interesting.
He did all those steps.
Fetal bovine serum, cow serum, horse serum, milk, antibiotics, took away the nutrients, and he didn't add anything from anybody with measles.
Right?
So that's kind of a control.
And he says, I've said this a hundred times, the results were indistinguishable.
Which means that it wasn't something in the measles liquid.
It was all that other stuff.
We don't know which of that stuff, right?
We don't know whether it's the antibiotics or taking away the food or, you know, maybe kidney cells don't like horse serum.
So kind of like a really simplistic analogy for that.
So it's almost like imagine I baked two cakes and I put this this guy I found this white substance under the sink and I put it in one of them and that cake killed somebody and I said, oh the white substance.
That's what killed the person.
Take the identical cake without the white substance that still kills them, right?
It's like, well, it doesn't prove anything.
Is that is that the right way of understanding that?
Except there's a different.
The only difference is they never actually looked for the white substance.
To put in the cake.
Wow, so they didn't.
They they didn't look for the virus in the mucus.
Never.
They never found a virus in the mucus.
So have they ever found a virus?
So now we're, so that's 1954.
You can do the math, right?
2023, it's 70 years.
So here's the next question.
I want everybody listening to hear what I'm about to say.
So every isolation experiment has been done exactly the same as that ever since.
And when they use a control now, they call it a mock infection.
The definition is everything is the same, but you take the virus out.
But they can't find the virus in there, so they never do that.
What they do is they do the whole thing, And with the snot versus nothing.
Now, it turns out that they don't actually tell you whether the other antibiotics were the same and the nutrients were the same.
And so they also reduce the antibiotic in the control because they say, well, we didn't put any mucus in there, so we don't need to kill the bacteria.
Now how do you know that it wasn't the higher dose of the antibiotics that killed him?
Right?
You don't.
That's not how you do science.
So there's two points here.
If you say, has anybody ever found SARS-CoV-2, Ebola, HIV, directly in any biological fluid of any animal or human being,
we now have approximately 225 freedom we now have approximately 225 freedom of information requests from the CDC, the NIH, Robert Koch Institute, Louis Pasteur, Malaysia, everywhere, California.
Nobody has a paper showing any particle that you could call a virus in the fluid of any human animal who's sick or otherwise.
Not one.
So therefore they can't take the virus out because they can't find it in the mucus.
Now, when you ask a virologist, why can't you find this particle in the mucus, right?
Because they tell you there's 100 million viruses in a sneeze.
You should be able to find one.
How do you find it?
You filter it, you ultra centrifuge it, it comes out as a band, you suck the band out, you look under an electron microscope, and you show uniform particles that band at the same density.
It's easy to do with all kinds of things that are smaller than viruses.
In fact, you can do it with something called bacteriophages, which is when you take a bacteria like strep and you stress it in a culture, it forms little spores that have it look like geometrical spaceships.
And you can easily find those and purify them and ban them out.
But they say you can't find them in the mucus.
Why not?
They say there's not enough to find.
If you ask them, which we did, how about if you make 10,000 people with COVID, you say, would there then be, if you mix their mucus all together, would there be enough to find in a band?
No.
And they tell you they can't find it.
If you think about what I just said, and that is how they prove there are viruses and that they cause disease, there is no part of that process that even proved that they exist.
The only thing they see is forms which are now, I would say, proven to be cellular debris that's stained because of the way they do electron microscopes.
Now, just let me say one thing and then I'll sort of shut up about this.
We decided, we, a bunch of us, you know, decided to run this experiment again.
The whole thing with the three steps, which are the CPE, the Culture, the Electron Microscope, and the Genome.
So, we hired a lab.
This is with our friend Stefan Lenka.
That's a whole long story.
So, we took cells that are growing, right?
Like these kidney cells.
And we fed them the normal nutrients, and we fed them a little bit of antibiotics, but not much.
Five days later, they were fine.
Okay?
Then we added the same cells, and we added fetal calf serum, which is added to every culture experiment done since 1960, to see if it was the fetal calf serum that was killing the cells.
The cells were fine.
Okay.
Then we did the next experiment, which was cells.
We added the antibiotics, same concentration as they add in every culture experiment.
We added the same nutrients, same as everyone, the same fetal calf serum.
Three days later, the cells died, called CPE, proving there was a virus.
When there was no virus anywhere or nothing from any sick person ever introduced into the experiment.
It was the experiment that the antibiotics or the nutrients or the mix together that killed the cells.
And then finally, we added RNA from yeast, right?
Like brewer's yeast has a lot of RNA in it.
We added that and it killed the cells even more.
No virus, nothing from anybody who's sick, proving that it's either the antibiotics or the nutrients or the fetal calf serum or maybe adding yeast, maybe kidney cells don't like yeast.
But the reason we did that is then we sent that to a biostatistician type and we said, Is there a SARS-CoV-2 genome in that mix?
Now remember, there was nothing from anybody who was sick, and they found the SARS-CoV-2 genome.
And then we asked, is there the measles virus genome in there?
All there was was the kidney debris and the RNA from yeast and the fetal bovine serum.
He found measles virus genome.
He found HIV.
In fact, HIV was the biggest match from that mixture, proving that those genomes aren't in the mix.
What they are is little pieces of RNA and they stitch them together to create a computer model of a genome.
And if you give it a template, it will make whatever genome you tell it to make.
As long as you have some biological material like fetal calf serum or yeast RNA or kidney cells.
And that proves there is no genome in there.
So the three proofs of virology are the kidney cells died.
That's called isolation.
That's the opposite of isolation.
That's adding crap to a culture and seeing if it dies.
That's not isolation.
The next is they see pictures of it.
We saw pictures of it too, but there turns out they're just dying kidney cells.
Third, they have the genome.
We got the genome too, but there was nothing from any virus or anybody who is sick anywhere near that mix.
Seth, that is the end of virology.
This is like unicorns and I sometimes say, you know, like Sasquatch, although I'm willing to negotiate on Sasquatch, because I don't really know if he's there or not.
Or aliens, you know, and I don't know if there's aliens or not, but there's more evidence for aliens than there are for viruses.
So there's no transmission, there's no physical evidence, and every other bit of evidence they use can be explained in another way, and I'm happy to do that if you want.
Yeah, well, I've got all kinds of questions.
I mean, this is just, I mean... Great.
And it all makes, I mean, kind of the narrative you're walking through, it makes sense.
I've kind of looked at a lot of science with a very suspicious eye, and especially nowadays, you see what's happening, and it's like, yeah, they're fudging the studies.
There's not even confirmation bias.
It's like, you will only get your funding if you do this research and it proves this point.
And so this, you know, like for instance, you know, my wife and I, we drink raw milk.
You know, we get raw milk once a week and we stop drinking pasteurized milk because it's just, you know, the FDA is going to say that we're suicide terrorists for drinking raw milk.
You know, there's just so many things to say.
You look pretty good.
Yeah.
I'm actually 78.
So, you know.
You're 78?
No, no, no.
I'm actually only, I'm actually only 36.
Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to start drinking more raw milk.
Yeah, I bathe in raw milk and honey every day.
You and Cleopatra, right?
Yeah.
So, gosh, so where my mind goes to with this is, well, I guess the first question, this is really the, to anybody that's watching it, maybe as a skeptic, it's like, well, Polio was real.
People became paralyzed and died.
You know, even COVID, when COVID first came out, I thought, okay, the PCR tests are false.
You know, flu disappeared, or they're just rebranding flu as this.
But also, I met people that I know, and their symptoms were not like anything else I've seen.
So, I was like, okay, there's something going on here.
And so, If, you know, or even say sickness kind of passing around, you know, like my daughter might go to a, you know, she's only two and a half.
She goes to gymnastics and the kids there have, one of the kids has pink eye.
Two days later, she's got pink eye, right?
So if you can't isolate, okay, but then what's, what is causing, like what is spreading?
Because we do see that these things do spread.
The Spanish flu, for instance, right?
A lot of people die.
No.
Oh, okay.
So there's, so Seth, That's why I started this with this.
So you have to separate.
First of all, now we're talking about transmission, not viruses.
Right?
So that to be clear.
So we already know there's no such thing as a virus.
Now let's talk.
So the other thing I would say, which is very important, is It is a fact that one does not have to know what is the truth to know something isn't true.
Good point.
And let me give you an example.
If you've ever looked into how clouds form and rain, it's unbelievably complicated.
Because the water should be heavier than the air and why does it float around?
Anyways, I've looked into it and I can't figure it out.
Right?
So somebody comes along and says, Tom, I know why there's rain.
It's a bunch of elephants floating around in the sky, pissing on us all day long.
So I would ask them, how high up are the elephants?
What are they?
Are they normal?
What color are they?
Etc.
It says they're a mile up this side, etc.
So I go up with an airplane.
There's raining, not a single elephant in sight.
I can tell you it's not elephants.
I don't still know why there's rain, but I know it's not elephants.
Now, the first real reported cases of polio were in Vermont, and at the same time, interestingly, that they started spraying lead arsenic on all the apple trees.
Lead arsenic is a specific neurotoxin for the anterior horn cells, which is the part that carries the nerves that make your muscles move.
Every single person with polio was exposed to lead arsenic.
That's the rat poison.
Then they started growing sugarcane with lead arsenic, and the lead arsenic would concentrate in the sugar, and especially from Cuba and Hawaii.
And that's why they associated polio with eating sugar.
Now, people said this over and over again.
This is not contagious.
You go to Wikipedia, they say there's no animal model.
Which means you can't make an animal get polio.
But if you feed them lead arsenic, you can.
So polio was a lead arsenic poisoning, one after another.
Then they started using DDT instead of lead arsenic, which turns out to be another Specific neurotoxin for the anterior horn cells of the nervous system causing paralysis.
And this happens over and over again.
It happened with COVID.
It happened with smallpox.
It happened with leprosy.
It happened with many other situations.
The way you make an epidemic is by collating different diseases and calling them one disease.
So in 1953, if you were paralyzed for a day or had weakness in your legs, you were diagnosed with polio.
In 1958, after the polio vaccine, and after essentially getting rid of DDT, you had to be paralyzed for six months in order to be called polio.
So the disease incidence went down overnight by 98% because even at the worst of it, most people don't get paralyzed for six months.
98% get paralyzed for a day.
Now, if you change the diagnostic criteria, then 98% suddenly don't have polio, and then they have, you know, like MS, or they have,
you know, Guillain-Barre syndrome, peripheral you know, Guillain-Barre syndrome, peripheral paralysis, or they have, you know, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or they have flaccid paralysis, of which there's 400,000 cases in India, you know, the last decade.
Exactly the symptoms of polio, but because they have a polio vaccine, but they still have DDT, Then you don't call them polio, you call them acute flaccid paralysis, and we don't know what causes that.
Even leprosy was decreed by the church in the early days.
If you were a sinner, Right?
And who defines sinner?
I mean, not me, not you, but some boss in the church.
If you were a nasty person with a rash, you had leprosy, go to the penal college.
They did the same thing with COVID.
What are the symptoms of COVID?
I have a screenshot, but I don't want to take time.
Exactly the same as the flu, RSV, and a whole lot of other common diseases, you want an epidemic, you mix them together.
You want to cure the epidemic, you break them apart, and now you don't have COVID, you have RSV, you have the flu, and you can see the same pattern over and over again.
Now, is it true that your child got chicken pox by going to a chicken pox party?
All I can say is if you do science, I would defy you to show me one paper in the scientific literature that any fluid from anybody with chicken pox made somebody else have a diseased chicken pox.
Now, I would admit that I have theories about what causes that phenomena that you see.
So here's one, but this isn't proof.
And one of the reasons is we've spent $100 trillion on the virus delusion.
You know how much money was spent on saying, I wonder why that child had a rash?
Like zero.
But here's at the height of the chickenpox epidemic, People had wallpaper, right?
There was a wallpaper craze in the United States.
And they were soaking the wallpaper in arsenic.
And the arsenic would outgas, and guess what?
It causes fever, mucus, and rash that looks exactly like chicken pox.
So your child goes to a house that they've recently wallpapered, and those children are sick, and they get fever, mucus, and rash.
They come to your house, and suddenly you can't show contagion.
And I can tell you, if anybody can send me a study showing any communicable disease is transmitted in the way that we think, I will recant what I said and say that I was wrong.
But we have 20 doctors and scientists scouring the literature for any study.
Show us a proper study showing that any child got chicken pox by exposure to somebody else with chicken pox and we can't find it.
It's very interesting piecing this all together, because I've interviewed a handful of people, like Dr. Robert Young, for instance, or just finished up an interview with Attorney Todd Callender, and they talk about EMF.
And there's also, from a different perspective, they're saying, yeah, they're saying there's no virus.
They're saying, like, if you look at Wuhan, I think it I think Todd calendar in my recent interview said that I think it was on Halloween night in 2019 They activated 5g as the first 5g city in China was Wuhan right at the beginning of the pandemic and so That goes to say it's like well.
Yeah, I mean is that what caused it.
I mean, I don't know but I There's a lot of very credible people that are saying that, you know, kind of similarly, that there is no virus and that it's being caused by external factors and they're using it.
Right.
So, but just to be clear, where we're at right now is we know there's no virus.
And I would go so far as to say, if from what I heard, and then you go looking into the references, you are unable to come to that conclusion, it's because of a psychological problem.
Or maybe you have nefarious interests, like you want to fool people.
But most people, it's not that.
It's just, I can't think that because my Aunt Bessie will disown me for my inheritance or something like that.
There is no science.
Now, given that, are there other factors that make people sick?
I mean, bad food, fear, electromagnetic fields, glyphosate, DDT, lead arsenic, you know, GMO stuff.
That's a whole can of worms because it's not really GMO, but that's another story.
I mean, right, you can make a list as long as your arm.
Is that why those people got sick?
Is it because they turned on 5G?
I mean, I don't really know.
But what I do know is it's not a virus, and if we're going to get anywhere in this world, somebody should start taking a look at why people are getting sick.
Because it's back to the scurvy thing.
This makes a difference.
As long as you thought scurvy was an unseen, invisible, infectious disease, you quarantine people and guess what?
They all died.
If you gave them a lemon or sauerkraut, for God's sake, they were fine.
It makes a big difference.
If it's the 5G tower, you either got to get rid of it or you got to figure out some way to deal with it.
If it's glyphosate, you got to stop spraying glyphosate in the food and to use it as a desiccant to dry your wheat.
If it's lead arsenic in the sugar or DDT in the sugar, you know, at some point if we're going to live as normal people, we've got to figure this out and stop doing that.
Right, we don't know yet because nobody is looking at it and the entire normal community, and by the way, the entire freedom community has bought this hook, line, and sinker.
And I just want to say one more thing.
By the way, the lab leak virus thing is exactly the same.
There is no lab leak virus.
That is the Patsy.
Because you've got to give people something to get all excited about and, oh, we caught him and it's Fauci's fault.
This is way bigger than that.
There's no lab leak virus because there ain't no virus.
It's, it's gosh, what, what timing to have this discussion.
And this is, so this is new information for me.
It's just like, Oh, it's like almost like redoing.
It's almost as if someone came to me and said, actually the whole theory of gravity is wrong.
Right.
And it's like, there's a cellular structure that we don't see that it's a membrane that holds us all to the earth.
It's like, well, that changes everything, but the, you know, with this, cause you know, OK, you mentioned you mentioned glyphosate.
You mentioned all this is OK.
They're putting fluoride in our water.
You know there.
Whether you believe in Kim Trails or you call it air pollution, there's some nasty stuff going up into our skies is coming down in our rain, right?
Right?
The food that we're eating.
And the Ohio thing, right?
I mean, that's two hours away from me.
And I don't know what was in there, really.
I mean, I don't know if you do, but it's not nice.
I know that.
I know that, yeah.
But what's crazy with this is that if you look at all of these potential causes of illnesses and you trace them back, you could probably say that actually it was this, it was DuPont, for instance, that put the lead arsenic in the paint.
Yes.
Bayer or Monsanto, it wasn't some random guy, it was these big corporations that if you look at what these corporations have grown into, you look at the control they have, you merge the pharmaceutical industrial complex with that, look at the control they have over the media, the scientific journals, the medical schools, wouldn't it make sense
That the virus thing is the ultimate red herring where they can actually say, look, we're not guilty for poisoning you with the food or poisoning your water or poisoning you this way.
It's just a virus.
So it makes sense that like, that like, there's no medical journals that probably want to talk about this or no medical schools teaching this or no doctors or keeping a license.
It just, it makes perfect sense.
It's the ultimate coverup for them.
Right, now I try to be very fastidious in not ascribing motives to people who I don't know, right?
Because I don't know that they did it deliberately.
But I do know, just like you said, I mean you figured it out in an hour, it's not hard, that these are the same people who propagated the germ theory and viruses.
The same people who make vaccines to fight the virus.
Right?
The same people who fund these institutions and these bio labs and all this to fight the virus.
The same people who own the media who tell us about the virus.
The same people who have World Economic Forum conferences and World Health Organization.
The Marburg virus and the HIV virus and on and on and on.
I mean, is it deliberate?
I don't know.
Yeah, I'll leave that to smarter people like you because it's it looks damn suspicious to me.
It's like it's like you're walking in the guys goes a dead body.
He's got blood on his hands and a knife in his back pocket.
It's just yeah, you know, it looks it looks pretty guilty and It's crazy because even what you mentioned about polio, and actually I heard someone else talking about polio, I think it was polio, but saying that it happened also right at the same time when they released a new radio technology.
So there's a new kind of frequency that was all of a sudden showing up across the world right at that same time.
But let's just look at You know, we mentioned the lead arsenic.
But what's crazy, though, is that they bring the vaccine out.
They then change the way they're measuring the they're measuring the, you know, the illness.
And they say, OK, well, no longer is it if you're paralyzed for a day has to be this long.
And they say, wow, look, our vaccine, you know, cured 98 percent because that's like when when the COVID vaccine first came out and I was talking to my friends and family, a distinct conversation with a family member.
And I said, look, I really recommend you stay away from it.
Give it some time because they were pressuring me.
And I was like, I'm not going to take it.
And I was kind of a little more soft and saying, well, I'm going to see what happens with it.
Right.
That was my kind of quiet, kind of polite way of saying there's no way I'm taking it.
But I said, one of the excuses that they made, well, look, vaccines are really good.
Look at how successful the polio vaccine was.
And that's one of the most common arguments I hear people say, even actually doctors that really see through what's happening with COVID and the current jab, that they still go back and say, well, in some instances, the vaccines are effective, like as an example, polio.
I mean, it seems like it's a giant psychological operation.
It is a pure PSYOP and there is no evidence of that.
But the thing is, people like you have to ask people, show me how they isolated the poliovirus.
Because if you ask them, did they isolate it?
They'll say yes, and they'll show you 20 papers with the title, Isolation of it.
And Seth, I guarantee everyone, they took the ground up stuff, put it on a kidney culture, put antibiotics.
That is not isolation by anybody's stretch of definition or thinking.
And they never had a polio virus.
And by the way, there was a lot of doctors even then who said, this is poisoning.
There's no, even the epidemiology that, that it happened where they started lead arsenic.
It happened where they did the sugarcane.
It happened where they had DDT and they get rid of DDT and the thing, and it changes the picture.
So there is no case that the polio virus ever did anything but made a whole bunch of people sick.
And then they go on with, you know, even the whistleblowers, they say, oh, well, there's this simian virus 40 contaminated the polio virus.
I don't know if you've heard that.
Andy Wakefield talks about that.
That's the problem with the polio virus.
Simian virus 40.
So where does that come from?
So they take kidney cells, like simian cells, and they poison them and they break down and there's 50 different forms they break down into just because it's just debris.
It's like throwing out your garbage.
And they start counting them.
And then there's 40 of them.
So that's simian virus 40.
And why is that harmful to people?
Because they just injected you with dying kidney cells from a monkey, with genomicin, a potent neurotoxin, amphotericin, a potent You know, kidney toxin and neurotoxin.
They put other stuff in there.
They put fetal calf serum sucked out of the heart of a newborn cow in the vat to stimulate the growth or something of the cells.
And that stuff injecting into your two-month-old child is not good for you.
I mean, it sounds insane hearing it that way, that anybody would go- It's insane!
And do that, but from a certain perspective, it also makes perfect sense, because historically, what's one of the best ways to control people?
It's through fear.
And if you can concoct this situation where there's this invisible enemy, it's everywhere all at once, and you know, wear your mask, wear your double mask, you know, put a plexiglass sheet in between you, all of these different things are all about building fear.
And it's like, is there a virus?
I don't know.
It's like, you know, it's, you can't even see it.
So of course people are going to be so frightened of it.
They, they see the videos of people falling over in the streets in China and they, they, they see CNN with their death count because they've changed the PCR testing and everyone's got had flu now has COVID.
And it's just, they created a pandemic of fear based on illusions.
And here's another thing I want everybody listening to this to do, and the problem is people are too scared to do it, but you're the boss of your medical encounter, right?
You're paying.
You go to your doctor, your primary care doctor, and say, walk me through the steps of how a virologist knows there's a virus, proves it exists, and causes disease.
And I guarantee you he or she will have no clue.
Now, they will say something like, well, you do a PCR test or something.
Which is ridiculous, because how can you say that a piece of something belongs to something that you've never found?
So, in other words, like I didn't know this three, five years ago, right?
I wrote books on this stuff, and I would not have been able to walk people through.
Nobody ever said anything to me in all of my medical training or internship, resident, nothing.
So, they don't know.
They just believe.
And, you know, it's gotten so weird now, this thing with, now, like, the World Health Organization and the executive, the head of Pfizer says, we never studied whether the COVID shots prevent transmission, right?
Everybody knows that.
So you go to somebody and say, why'd you get the COVID shot?
Well, I didn't want my grandmother to get sick.
So then you say, you know that the Pfizer CEO said it doesn't stop transmission and we never studied it.
You know that, right?
Yes.
So why did you get the shot?
Because I didn't want my grandmother to get sick.
This is a mental illness.
There's like no talking to that person.
Because they checked out.
And if you have a checked out population, you've got a problem.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, that's our population right now.
There's some of us that see what's going on, but so many people.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, even if you tell them, look, show them the Pfizer executive, he's testifying.
Joe, did you ever study Trent?
Nope, never studied him.
Why did you take that shot?
Well, I didn't want my friend to get sick.
It's altruism, right?
Protecting the other.
But he just told you that it doesn't work like that.
They just said it, like, Fred, it doesn't do that.
Doesn't matter.
Yeah, there's some sort of psychosis.
That's a problem.
Yeah.
Also the same thing that a parent has an 18-year-old kid that drops dead while playing football all of a sudden, and they're not in outrage over it.
They're just like, well, he died because of climate change, because that's what Anderson Cooper said.
Right.
It's like, oh.
Yeah, lots of 18-year-olds have heart attacks and died.
I mean, I was a general practitioner for almost 40 years, never once saw that. - Yeah. - I never heard of that.
I was an ER doctor for 10 years on, you know, moonlighting.
I never once saw any of these things.
The number of people with a new diagnosis following the injection is astronomical.
And, you know, everybody's telling me, Tom, nobody cares about this, like, virus thing.
You got to play nice and just say it's just whatever.
I don't agree with that, because if knowing there's no virus doesn't get you to not take a shot to protect you against the virus, then...
I mean, I don't know what to say then.
It's like I'm done.
Yeah.
Well, it's a good message to people that are watching or listening to share this video or this podcast because more people need to understand this.
So, Tom, I'll direct people to your website.
So it's drtomcohen.com.
This is where you can find the books.
You've got a ton of information on there.
It's a really good website.
So I'd recommend that folks go check that out and check out your book with the contagion myth, which you wrote with Sally Fallon Morrell, which is an amazing woman.
And I just, you know, thank you for, obviously, for being here today and kind of giving us this information.
It's really important.
But also, thank you for putting yourself out there, being the person that's really screaming that, hey, the emperor is not wearing any clothes, because it's like no one else is talking about it.
Well, there's more and more of us, so yeah.
We are a growing movement and I think we can do this.
And I would love for your help.
And mainly just anybody who you interview who gives you the virus line, just how do you know this?
Because now you know what to ask.
Oh, I do.
Yeah.
Now I know.
Yeah.
Now you know.
You have to get people back on and to say, well, hold on.
Let's, let's start here.
Yeah.
Start here.
All right, Seth.
Thank you, Tom.
It was very nice to have you on.
Okay.
You take care.
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