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Sept. 3, 2022 - Jim Fetzer
01:41:12
Drs Mark & Sam Bailey with David Parker and Dawn Lester, Sept. 3, 2022
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I mean, that's the one of the good things about this whole COVID myth is that it's woken more people up now than have ever woken up before to the lies of the authorities.
And it's not just the misconceptions of the medical system, but the actual lies that are going on behind it and the agendas, the political agendas, because it is a political thing.
that are going on in the background.
And more people have woken up to that now and then are starting to question the whole political system.
They're starting to question the banking system and see what a fraud that is, the legal system.
And so this is a good thing.
Dawn Lester and David Parker spent more than 10 years investigating the real reasons that people become ill using an unbiased and logical approach that enabled them to follow the evidence with open minds.
The results of their investigation are revealed in their groundbreaking book, What Really Makes You Ill.
Well, welcome David and Dawn.
Thank you so much for agreeing to come on our channel.
You're a very popular guest.
Thank you.
Well, thank you for inviting us.
We're really delighted to be talking to you.
It's fantastic.
Thank you very much for making the time.
As busy parents, we know.
Now, the first thing I'd like to say is that we do have a copy of your book and we're avid book collectors, to be honest, and we can't stand electronic books like Kindle.
And the funny thing is your book is the only one we have on Kindle.
I'd love to see, it's in paperback isn't it, but I absolutely love hardcover books and will there be any plans to maybe make a hardcover edition one day?
We don't know because it's such a big book, I mean it's nearly 800 pages with all the 40 pages of citations in the back so it's quite a tome it's quite heavy already and uh we uh we had difficulty getting you know publishers don't like big books you know they like something about 300 pages not i mean originally
it was well over a thousand pages and we're having to alter fonts and all sorts of things just to get it down to 800s So whether we do a hard actual hardback is, I don't know, we'll have to see about that.
But it seems to be doing well.
I think it might make it expensive too.
Well that's the other thing, we wanted to keep the price down as much as we can because it's quite an expensive book to produce.
But people do like the electronic copy as well, because it's easy to search, you know, you can search for words and things.
Yes, the paperback doesn't have an index and so, but at the same time, you know, if you've got a searchable facility or a search facility, then you can search any word or any term or whatever, because an index that covered everything would probably be Another 50 pages or something ridiculous like that.
Oh, it might not be that many, but it would be loads.
Yeah.
But yeah, some people have both, you know, who want to do research work and they have the electronic copy to help them do the research.
And of course, it's much cheaper than the book.
But as you can see, I like books, real books too.
Yeah, we have an extensive library.
This is just a small portion of it.
Yeah, curling up with a good book.
Yeah.
It's great.
And I know one of the books you've got in your library is a first edition of Virus Mania.
Yeah, that's the little one.
And we've joked with you previously that you were actually reading Virus Mania before Sam knew anything about it, because she became a co-author, obviously, in 2020.
But for your book, you were looking at the first edition.
Yes, and I think we actually bought this soon after it first came out in 2007.
I think we had this before we published our small sort of book, when we were first looking at it, we put a small book out.
And I think we already had that then.
So that was about 2010.
So, yeah, I mean, we came across virus mainly fairly early on.
And I think that was partly due to Stefan Lanko, because we found him on Virus Myth.
Because we were looking to the HIV-AIDS, and so we came across Stefan Lenker's work, and I think that took us to Jocelyn Engelbrecht and Klaus Körnlein's work, and I think that took us to this book.
So it's just, it was a while, you know, a few years ago, so I can't remember the exact kind of, you know, trail, exactly, you know, what came first, but I know we've had this book for a while, and it just was a really, really amazing part of our journey of discovering Just the nonsense of, you know, the idea that viruses cause disease.
I mean, it took us a while to kind of go, you mean no viruses?
So it was... Well, like many people, I mean, going back 15, 17 years ago, you know, we'd been brought up to believe that germs made you ill, either bacteria or viruses, and that vaccinations were good for you.
Forgive me for saying, but we were told that doctors knew what they were talking about.
We were told it too!
So you know that we're saying it not, you know, sort of, it's not a personal thing, it's because of your training, you know, I mean that.
The same for virologists, you know, they can, like anyone, you know, if it was me with electrical engineering, you know, when you go to college, you believe what your lecturers are telling you.
And you have to regurgitate it to pass your exams.
So it's no different for doctors, virologists, engineers.
But of course, if what you've been told is incorrect, then that's the problem.
And that's the problem, of course, for doctors and virologists.
You know, as we often say to people, you know, doctors are not evil people who are deliberately deceiving the public.
The people behind it, you know, behind the World Health Organization or the people who are perpetrating this crime against humanity, because that's what it is, they are evil people, but that's a different story.
And one of the first doctors that we came across that were exposing the problems was Robert Mendelsohn in his book Confessions of a Medical Heretic.
I mean, we came across that pretty early on.
Back from the sort of 2000s and 2007 or something like that.
And that was a real eye-opener for us, because he was really exposing that a lot of what the medical establishment does, you know, the way doctors are trained, doesn't actually help the patient.
So, you know, I mean, that was quite a big influence in kind of showing us, you know, that the way they're trained doesn't actually do what What we are told that doctors do, which is help people back to their health.
And it's, you know, all the problems with that.
And I mean, he was mainly a paediatrician, I think he was sort of dealing with, I think one of his other books is how to bring up a healthy child.
So he was looking at, you know, the way doctors are trained for, you know, helping children, you know, with all sorts of vaccines and everything.
And yeah, so that was a good starting point for us to show that even doctors knew that there were problems in the system.
Well, he actually called it the Church of Modern Medicine and, you know, talks, or talk, I mean, he's no longer with us, of course, but sadly, yes, because a great guy.
And, you know, he realized that, you know, it was the white coat stethoscope type of problems where people in the same way that within the priesthood, you know, people Look to a guy in a particular uniform and then accept what's been told to them, whether it's about religion or the medical system.
And so it was quite an apt name for him to call it the Church of Modern Medicine.
And he drew quite a few parallels between religion and modern medicine.
So yeah, good book for anyone to read who likes to read books.
It's quite interesting.
So I know you did ask About people that have influenced us over the years.
And of course, Dr. Stephen Lanker and Robert Mendelsohn are two of them.
The Perth Group, which I know you.
And again, because one of the first Illnesses, we'll call it that, rather than a disease, because people have this wrong impression whenever you mention the word disease that it's something infectious, which of course it isn't.
And that happened to be the first illness that we came across, which was HIV AIDS, which was the big eye-opener for us.
When we realized, because we'd grown up in the 80s of course, we were adults in the 80s, and so we had the whole HIV-AIDS scam.
We didn't know it was a scam then, which terrified everyone, including us, because we still thought there was some deadly virus on the loose and that Although we were told it had originated in the homosexual community in San Francisco, when it was going to spread into the heterosexual community and rampage around the world, and we were given figures of 50 million people going to die, which didn't come true of course.
AIDS has both sexes running scared.
Research studies now project that one in five, listen to me, hard to believe, one in five heterosexuals could be dead from AIDS at the end of the next three years.
That's by 1990.
One in five.
So this was the minefield that we suddenly found ourselves in and realised there was big problems.
And as I say, to this day, I still remember Dawn and I saying to one another, crikey, you know, if they got this one wrong, what else have they got wrong?
And that was really the start of our 10 years research to look at every sort of illness that we knew about and that the public knew about to try and see if there was any of them.
that could be scientifically proved to be caused by a germ of one sort or another, and we couldn't.
There was nothing there.
We couldn't find any scientific papers to back it up, or only erroneous ones, which there seems to have been even more of them now.
And so, which I know you've looked at lots of them yourself, and no one's been able to find any truly scientific papers that prove either bacteria or viruses such as they are.
Are actually responsible for any illness and we know that through the work of Christine Massey in Canada has sort of challenged I think at least 200 of the governments of the world and their medical departments to come up with the information that they're basing their sort of draconian measures on and none of them can.
None of them have got any which again Makes it all very suspicious as to why all these governments and medical institutions have been closing the world down when they know very well they don't have any sign of the information to back up what they're doing.
So again you come back to what is going off and there is I know some people think oh it's just some sort of conspiracy you know so they like to try and dismiss you with well you're just a conspiracy theorist or you're insane which we've been called before now I'm sure you had some of these lovely terms applied to you over the years but that just shows they have no argument you know they can never ever
come up with any uh scientific information um to prove that you're wrong and that's our fallback you know because we we've been touring around the UK giving uh live talks as we call them um and occasionally we get some awkward person who wants to try and uh as I say call us insane or something like that
and we just fall back on well look if you can give us the evidence to prove that you're right and we're wrong we'll retract what we say but they never can and we even say well send us some papers you know send us a link to something but they never do we're still waiting there was somebody yeah there was somebody who challenged us and said well okay send us the papers you know you've got our So they contacted us through the website.
That was a couple of months ago.
No, it was a few months ago now.
Never actually contacted us.
And this was someone who was telling us what a clever scientist and microbiologist he was.
He was very full of himself, but he still can't produce any evidence to prove that he's right and we're wrong.
And I'm sure you've had a lot of this too.
So so we go on, you know, we continue to through like talks with yourselves and others to try and inform the public
of the size and magnitude of this lie which it is because the people right at the top they know very well that what they're saying and doing is is incorrect um so uh we have to inform the public because as we know the fear factor um is generated out of ignorance and people are ignorant of the in the nicest sense of the word truly ignorant of the facts
And that's where the fear comes from.
When people are ignorant of what's really going on, they become fearful.
When people are fearful, they're much more easy to manipulate.
And that's what governments and Local authorities have done with devastating consequences where people have been coerced one way or another into taking the jab as we best to call it I guess and it's costing lives thousands of lives probably tens of thousands of lives we know in the UK with the government's own yellow card system Um, which is only filled in by about two or three percent of doctors.
But even then, their yellow card system shows that over 2,000 people have died as a direct result of the jab.
And there's something like one and a half million people have had very severe adverse effects.
Now, you would think that that would be enough for any drug to be withdrawn from the market.
Which normally would have happened a few years ago.
But no, the government in the UK, even though they know because it's their figures, are still recommending that you take the jab and telling you that it's safe and effective, which is patently obviously not true.
Again, it indicates that there is some sort of criminal agenda which is going on, you know, there's no other word for it really.
It is criminal what's going on because it's costing lots of people's lives.
And so that's why we do what we do, and I'm sure that's why you do what you do, is to try and inform people so they can make informed decisions and realize there is nothing to be afraid of.
There's no germs out there that's going to get them and make them ill.
And there are very simple ways to maintain health and live a long and healthy life without recourse to vaccinations or any pharmaceutical products for that matter.
And that's again was all part of our research and what we talk about in our book to explain the simplicity of natural health.
I wanted to ask you, just before we get into the real nitty gritty of things, is how, and I know you've said this story before, but I really am interested in how you guys connected up.
How this, before there was any talk of book or HIV or anything, how did you get there?
Because it's, yeah, it's always an interesting journey.
Okay, well, as I said, we, Don and I have known one another for about 20 years, so we sort of met when, because I was, I've always been particularly interested in the nature of reality, nothing to do with the medical system, with what this world is, you know, what's life about, is it some sort of biological accident, you know, is there a purpose to it, what happens to us when we die, you know, these were always important things to me as a teenager.
And I was always surprised that no one else seemed to be particularly interested.
So I sort of went on on my own.
But then in later years, as I studied comparative religions and Eastern philosophies and all sorts of things, and met Dawn at, I was doing a talk at a local venue and met Dawn and realized we both had very common interests in that respect.
And eventually, to cut a long story short, We decided, because we were asked to do it, to write a little book about the nature of reality, which does still exist.
You can still get it on Amazon, dare I say, and other places.
But we were writing under our pen name, N.O.R., Nature of Reality.
Not very imaginative, I know, but it's only a small book, but it's about the nature of reality and We, it was during writing that book where there was a little bit in it where we needed to write about health and how people got ill and how that Coincided with consciousness and what people thought about basically what people would now think of as the nocebo or placebo effect.
How consciousness worked with that.
And so we had to do some research about viruses because we realized we really didn't know anything about them.
As I say I'm going back about 17 years now.
Yeah because we still believed that there was such a thing as infectious diseases back then so you know we thought well how do we infectious disease how do we get those get yes Inverted commas, get those things, catch them.
if consciousness is sort of how we have our experiences through consciousness.
So it was, well, how can we get these diseases if we can actually control our own health?
Because we came across Bruce Lipton's work, The Biology of Belief.
So again, that was how our beliefs and fears and all that affect our lives and our health.
So again, it was all connected.
And then we thought, well, how do you get these things like colds or flu if they're viruses?
How can we, how do we get these?
How does that happen?
What's the mechanism?
Yeah.
So that was really the start of it.
And so we thought, okay, well, we'll have a look at some diseases.
Purely by coincidence, if you believe in such things, which we don't, it was HIV-AIDS.
And we thought, OK, we'll have a look at that, because this is this big scary thing, and let's have a look at it.
And that was the start of it.
Big rabbit hole, that one.
Big rabbit hole, yes.
Huge, huge.
And of course, we came across People like Dr. Stefan Lenker and many others, Carrie Mullis, and there was no turning back then.
I mean, and it was huge, as Dawn said, we produced a little book, which is still out there, called Why Germs Don't Make You Ill and Drugs Can't Cure You.
So it says it all in the title, really.
Yes, that was published in 2010 as well, so it shows that, you know, we kind of were at the beginning of this journey, yeah, 12 years ago.
So we put that out there because we thought, crikey, there's so much wrong with what we've been told.
We need to tell people, you know.
So we got that out there, but we realized that we've got to do more work.
And hence that started then on the big book, the big tome.
But we didn't expect it was going to take 10 years of research, but we thought we've got to do this very thoroughly because we were expecting, because, you know, I come from an electrical engineering background and Dawn from accountancy, And we thought, you know, we're going to get hammered by the whole of the medical system by talking and taking apart, basically, the medical system.
Because most people don't seem to realize that, you know, if you pay due diligence to a subject and follow the evidence and are meticulous in what you look at, you can study anything, you know, in the same way as you guys started out You know, you weren't born from your mother's womb as a doctor.
You know, you had to study it and learn.
And the same for me as an electrical engineer.
And it's the same for any subject.
So, you know, we spend 10 years studying the medical system and studying disease.
And that's why we feel qualified, if you like, to have written what we've written.
But at the same time we did actually look at the wider picture because we knew it wasn't just the medical system in isolation.
We knew there were lots of other aspects that they were all interconnected and so we had to do a dive into many other areas to see how they were interconnected and then realise that it was, you know, the whole system, not just the medical system, but it's just a part of the bigger picture.
So we have included certain aspects of that bigger picture to help people see that it is all interconnected.
And it's, you know, not just us kind of having a go at the medical system, but to see how it does play into, I say the agenda, it is the agenda, you know, Agenda 21 and 2030 Agenda, you know, that's what these documents are called.
So it was to show people how the medical system sort of is part of that.
Of course, if we'd have covered all the subjects in the same depth, it would have been a, you know, 10 book set rather than 10 chapters.
So, you know, we thought, well, we wanted, we knew we could write a lot about all these, but we wanted to keep it into one book to give people an overview of how it is all connected, but mainly in terms of what people can do about taking control of their own health, of their own bodies, what they do, And their own actions can affect their own health and can take responsibility for their own health, which is the complete opposite of what we're told.
What we're taught that, you know, if you're ill, you go to the doctor.
No offence, but you know, it's you have to put your health in the doctor's hands.
But it's now, you know, it's taken that back.
And it's, it is quite a big thing for a lot of people to realise that It's not about blame.
You know, people think, oh, you know, blaming the victim.
No, not at all.
But it's understanding how the body works.
And that's then being able to put it into practice and then taking control and seeing things, seeing effects for yourself.
And I think that's By far the best way that people can realise something is working when they do something for themselves and see the effect.
So that's really what we did and of course we didn't want to shortchange people, we didn't want it to be a book which was just about the problems, we wanted it to also be about solutions and that's why the first part of the title is What Really Makes You Ill.
And why everything you thought you knew about disease is wrong, because we just thought, well, that's where we were 17 years ago.
So we thought we'll have that as the title of the book, because most people will find out, yeah, everything you thought you knew about disease is wrong, which, of course, a lot of, dare I say, a lot of doctors found out, as you said, you know, what they were taught in medical school isn't actually how the human body works and isn't what health is.
It's not why you get ill.
So then we spent the time on when we were examining all the different diseases which are in the contents of the book.
It slowly became clear to us what did really make people ill and the basis of why people become ill is oxidative stress.
Which we found was caused by what we call our four factors, incorrect nutrition, overexposure to EMFs, electromagnetic frequencies, toxification, exposure to various toxins, what you put in and on your body, and prolonged emotional stress.
Because we found that stress not only has a psychological effect, it has a physiological effect as well.
And we found that all of these four factors I just mentioned will produce in the body free radicals.
which are basically, from an electrical point of view, I understand them as ions, which is spelled I-O-N-S, of course, which are whenever a molecule or an atom loses one or more of its electrons, it becomes a positively charged, which is a free radical.
And these can be destructive, as we found, and this is what oxidative stress is, and can start to damage tissue.
But the human body, through its nutrition, produces antioxidants, which neutralize, I'm giving a simplified view here, which neutralize these free radicals.
And so the human body stays in balance, and no one's even aware that this is happening, until it starts to get out of balance either, They are not taking in sufficient and correct nutrition or they're exposed to excessive amounts of things like EMFs or toxicity or stress.
And so there's an imbalance between free radicals and, you know, the neutralizing agents.
And that's when people start to then show symptoms of illness.
And it can be just something as simple as the common cold, which as we learnt is not caused by a virus.
It's the body's symptoms of trying to get rid of over-toxification.
If you can't get rid of the toxins in the normal way, the normal sort of excretory methods, which can be sweat, you know, excrement, urine, all of those things, it will sort of pull in the mucous membranes, hence the sort of congestion.
And those are the symptoms people see.
And influenza, again, is just a more acute form of that, really.
And so on, without going into them, because they're all in the book.
I know I keep plugging the book, but it's all there.
And this is what we found, time and time again.
And why we spent so long looking at it, to make sure that we weren't wrong, that it did actually pan out.
And so we even looked at animal diseases.
To see whether there were some different factors.
And we found it was just the same with animals, particularly farm animals.
Of course, they have lots of medication through vaccinations and incorrect feeding.
So two of those four factors animals suffer from as well and misdiagnosis.
They can suffer from the sort of stress if you know they're herded and you know kept in unnatural conditions so you know that's... And having their young taken away from them with cows in particular you know as we know their calves are taken away from their mothers at a very early age so that the cows continue to produce milk.
Which is a stressful thing, you know, these sorts of animals, you know, they're sentient beings.
And so, you know, we obviously Dawn and I take a great interest in this anyway, because we're plant based and we make no secret of that.
We don't call ourselves vegans because there's a lot of a lot of confusion about veganism, isn't there?
You know, as we often say to people.
It's becoming political rather than sort of to do.
Yeah, I mean, vegan isn't sort of, you know, A diet anyway but it's it's not about diet because again diet is missing the point it's about kind of choices and you know it's about nutrition people make their own choices in terms of nutrition it's it's really having as natural sort of foods that are as natural as possible rather than being processed and then you know
Lots of toxic chemicals added because they are not actual food ingredients, even though they're called food additives.
So, you know, it's such a big topic.
We do explain this and because people like Bill Gates started to get involved in veganism, of course, that raised a lot of people's suspicions and gave veganism a bad name.
And in a way, it's good that people are sort of more wary because as we often point out, people can be vegans and live on, you know, cakes and Coca-Cola.
You're not eating any animal stuff but you're not going to be on a healthy diet but you may want to call yourself vegan.
So that's why we say plant-based for us.
We know it's not for everyone and we know that there's still a school of thought that believes you have to eat meat.
You know that if you don't eat meat you're missing some vital ingredients and I say well For me personally, I've not eaten, you know, I've been on a plant-based diet for 50 years and I'm perfectly healthy.
I think I would have found out by now if there were some vital ingredients I was missing.
And of course there are millions more like me, you know, Buddhism and many Hindus, of course, who've been doing it for thousands of years, you know.
So obviously you don't need to eat meat but I can understand that people may want to eat meat and but that's a different thing altogether.
It's whether you need to and all as we try to point out is you don't need to if you don't want to and because we care a lot about animal welfare of course that you know the ethical side of it comes into it as well but also the health side because of the factory farming methods
And as we mentioned earlier, animals get injected with all sorts of things, the residues of which are often retained within the meat products, which you then eat, and can be one of the ways that various toxins get into your body.
So, a big subject in itself, but...
We could write a book just on that bit but these are the factors that we started to come across as to what really makes you ill and in no cases ever did we find it to be germs and as I say it boiled down into the four factors that I mentioned earlier.
Yeah I mean I think you really hit the nail on the head with the dietary stuff because we are meat eaters and we consume dairy in our family and like you're found with longevity The Baileys also have a long history of longevity and most of our ancestors eating meat products have lived into their 90s on both sides of our family.
I think you're really correct in what you say.
It's about being conscious of the food that you are consuming, whether it is plant-based or meat or dairy.
So for us, we know, we drink raw cow's milk, and we know the farm it comes from, we know the farmer, we know how well he takes care of his animals, and similarly, if we're Eating a chicken for dinner.
We know the farm that it comes from.
We know that the animals are free range and well cared for.
Because, I mean, as you say, you can get people who say that they're vegans, but they might be sourcing their vegetables from a supermarket where they have no idea where it was originally sourced from.
So, yeah, I think the most important thing with diet is to be conscious of where the food is coming from, how it's been treated, what additives it's got into it, all that sort of thing.
And, I mean, unfortunately, probably like you guys, you get attacked because you don't eat meat, and we sometimes get attacked because we do eat meat.
And it's pretty hard to win, isn't it?
I'm not quite sure what you're supposed to do here.
But I think it comes down to an individual choice and choosing what's right for you and your family.
Now, one thing I want to do, do you know, I think in your book, one of the most important things that we cannot emphasize enough, and I know you reached this conclusion with your own research, was the whole model of diseases is completely wrong because people think of diseases was the whole model of diseases is completely wrong because people think of diseases as like a specific entity when, in fact, the body just has certain conditions that
And the medical, the allopathic system has invented, you know, thousands of what they say are specific disease entities.
And we were taught these.
When you're a medical student... We fell for it!
Yeah, you kind of fall for it and you think, you know, halfway through your medical training you have a bit of a crisis where you think that there is two and a half thousand diseases that could strike you at any time.
Whether it be a germ, you know, that's the theory on a lot of these things, or some other thing that just happens to strike you down.
And it's a really backwards way of looking at things.
And obviously too, I mean you know this from looking at doctors like Montague Levison, who I know you quote in your book.
And he was saying over a hundred years ago, he was pointing out to the other doctors, basically saying, you fools, you're looking at things completely the wrong way.
Smallpox is not a thing that goes around.
It's not an it.
It's a condition.
It's a toxic condition that people get in.
And there's only certain ways that the body can respond.
And it happens to be through a skin eruption.
Um, and obviously, yeah, you talked about, it sounds like you're influenced by the Perth group with the oxidative stress models as the basis of conditions like AIDS.
So yeah, I think, um, I think for people it's really hard to get their head around and we've noticed it a lot in the COVID era because People will watch Sam's videos, they'll read the material, but then they'll call you or send an email saying, oh, I've just got it.
And we'll say, got what?
Oh, I got the COVID.
And you'll say, what do you mean?
Oh, I felt really crook for three days, took one of the tests, it was positive, I've got it.
And it's really hard to undo.
And I think, because as you know, the medical system promotes this kind of model.
It's a really hard thing to undo.
I think, yeah, I'd have to say, for me, that was one of the, I was really happy to see that in your book, that you come to that same conclusion, that this, and Dawn was talking about it before, you don't catch things, they don't strike you down.
There's things that happen to your body and it is difficult as you know because for most people they need to reflect that there probably is something they're doing wrong and none of us want to think that.
We all want to think that we're doing things absolutely perfectly and if something goes wrong it must be because someone else did something or for whatever reason but I mean Sam and I find in our own family life with our health We just find little things all the time that you can improve.
Up to two years ago, we admit that we were consuming some tap water, whether it was drinking it or cooking with it.
And we wouldn't dream of doing that now.
We're absolutely horrified.
Our water comes through a four-stage filtration system.
Our kids have learned never to drink tap water at anyone else's house.
They can actually smell the difference now.
And it's all these little things.
You know, even when you've been doing this for years, you notice something that you're doing and think, how could I have missed that?
You know, and you have to constantly think, what is the best way to keep healthy?
I've got a question I wanted to ask you because you've got a chapter in your book about vaccination.
And I wanted to know, before you, I guess, woke up or started investigating, had you been vaccinated?
or what was your, both of your experiences with that?
I, I sort of had strange kind of ideas about vaccination, but I mean, the last one I had was about 40 years ago.
But, you know, again, because we're sort of, you know, I'm older that I wouldn't have had that many As a child, so I did have some, but I mean, obviously, but not hesitant to the point where I thought, oh, I'm not going to have any.
I mean, obviously, once we started looking at it, it was obvious, there was no way.
So I suppose I was sort of open to it, so it wasn't like I was, oh, you know, I don't know.
But with me?
I suppose just because we were open-minded, or I was open-minded, I was able to sort of say, okay, well, that means vaccinations are out.
So, but yeah, I, yeah, obviously, you know, thought that they were, they did prevent disease, but.
And I was the same because I was brought up to think that, you know, my parents, I'm somewhat older than Dawn.
So, you know, my parents thought they were doing the right thing to take us along as kids to be vaccinated against all the usual stuff.
But even as an adult, many, many years ago, I worked and lived in West Africa.
But before I could go out there, you know, I had to have a whole raft of vaccinations, just about everything you can possibly think of, you know, including things like yellow fever.
And it almost killed me.
While I was out there, I almost died.
They all thought I'd got malaria.
I didn't know, you know, as I say, we all thought malaria was a real thing.
We do talk about that in our book.
But I was actually now looking back and can see what happened.
You know, I was poisoned.
I'd had so many vaccinations, really unpleasant ones, in quite close proximity in order to literally have to have a vaccine passport to go into West Africa at the time to work.
And it almost cost me my life.
You know, everyone thought I was going to die, including me.
I was ill for weeks, bedridden for weeks.
I was really ill.
So, You know, yes, I have some very unpleasant experiences from vaccinations, but now as we started to educate ourselves and realised and looked into the history of vaccinations, what's in them, if they've ever been proved to be safe and effective, and we realised that no, they're not safe and effective.
No way can they for confer immunity so we had to look into does the body actually have this mythical thing an immune system and we realized no the body doesn't it doesn't work like that it has a repair and maintenance system it doesn't have an immune system where you can inject something into it And it will produce specific antibodies which then lurk around in your system waiting for those horrible germs to attack you and then they swoop in and kill them off.
The body just doesn't work like that.
So and quite often we have a lot of difficulty with people when we have to talk about the myth of the immune system and say well it doesn't actually work like that.
And they go, what?
What?
No, that can't be true.
And so, you know, that's just one of these myths that people have to get by.
But of course, as we point out, it's important that the medical system keeps that myth going because it goes hand in glove with vaccinations.
You know, if they admitted the body doesn't have an immune system that produces specific antibodies to a germ, And people are going to ask the next question, well, what are vaccinations for then?
So they need to keep those myths going.
But that alone causes lots of damage.
And the historical evidence, I mean, we show graphs to people which show that all the most common so-called diseases were sort of on a massive decline long before vaccinations actually came into force.
But the medical establishment Don't, yourselves excluded of course, the medical establishment generally, don't make that information available to the public.
So we do, you know.
It's public information if people knew where to look and they could see that.
So we tell them, you know, these are false claims.
By the medical establishment, you know, vaccinations have never been proved to be safe and effective ever.
In fact, just the reverse.
And that's quite provable.
So, but yes, I fell foul of that many, many decades ago and almost died because of it.
So, you know, I have, I'm particularly sort of attentive to what's going on now with the COVID jab, which is continuing to kill people.
So I sort of make no, I don't hide, you know, I don't pull my punches when I talk about that and if lots of people get offended, then so be it.
You know, people need to know the truth and that's plain to see.
And the historical evidence and scientific evidence backs up what we say, so... Yeah, well, I'd have to say, I think my favourite chapter title, I think it's Chapter 2.
Vaccinations, ineffective and dangerous.
I mean, it's the opposite of safe and effective.
Yeah.
And did you know the safe and effective mantra is not new?
It's been recycled over and over again by the pharmaceutical industry.
So it was used for thalidomide famously.
They used it over and over again, even when they knew it was dangerous, highly toxic.
Proprietors continued to call it safe and effective.
So yeah, I thought that that title chapter was genius.
I really appreciated that.
Yeah, and the other thing is, yeah, it's certainly like you, we find with vaccination.
So when we were at medical school, we were told this is not something you need to question.
This is all established science and they never provided us with any research or figures.
Certainly not randomised control trials, that sort of thing.
to back up what they were saying.
They just said, look, you're crazy if you even look into this because they're the greatest public health invention since sliced bread.
Now, what Sam's co-authors, Torsten and Klaus Tauter, and what they do is you simply write to a health authority and you just say, I see you're making claims about vaccinating children and the general public.
Can you please provide the evidence, just one paper that we can have a look at?
Because surely with such strong claims you're making, there must be some really sound evidence and that they simply do not have it.
It doesn't exist.
And as you say, this stuff's all publicly available.
We're not making things up.
But I think the, The medical establishment has made this, I think it's going to be their downfall, potentially, by attaching themselves to something which is not scientifically established and which has been shown now to be incredibly harmful.
So, yeah, it's really interesting.
And the other thing too, you probably, I think you knew this from your own research, was People used to proudly call themselves anti-vaccination.
It's interesting how that's become, you know, such a negative term that they try and use these days.
A hundred years ago there were people, it was well known to be part of anti-vaccination groups and places like that.
Yeah, George Bernard Shaw and some quite prominent people, yeah.
Yes and they had public debates back in those days as well and you know the the arguments were strong they had plenty of people and they included humour as well because I mean there were some transcripts of some of the debates that have that went on I mean over a hundred years ago I think back at the either the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th so I mean you know there's there's there is a lot of information available but you have to know How to look and where to look.
And it's obviously becoming more difficult to find it.
For those who know how to search or the terms to search for, you can find it.
But, you know, for general searches, you know, chances are you just get the establishment narrative put up in the first 50 pages or certainly 10 pages of whatever it is search engine you're using so that you never actually get to anything that possibly questions it but as you say it's sort of you know being anti-vax now is is a derogatory term and and it but it's not even being i i don't even know if we can say sort of like anti-vax it's just to say well we don't agree that they are useful effective
they don't have any use you know they're they're proven harmful and uh you know they don't do what they say because it's based on a complete lie because once you take away the germ theory that that's the whole vaccination all Although vaccinations did start with Jenna before Pasteur's germ theory so again you know it wasn't based on the germ theory so it started before but again that's that was all based on a sort of a misunderstanding of things as well so.
But some of the things that we we try to warn people about because there are certain people in the so-called truther movement well in fact I'll name one of them Dale Bigtree And sort of campaigns for safe vaccines.
Well, you know, that's just a misnomer.
There is no such thing and can never be any such thing because of, as we've said, how the body works.
And so this misleads people where they think that if they put enough pressure on the medical establishment, they can produce safe vaccines, which is a nonsense.
And it takes people down completely the wrong avenue.
And it's disappointing that people like him, and he's not the only one, who've got large audiences, and it's not because the information is not available to him, but he, well I won't go into it now, but he deliberately shuts off from that because of certain other, what shall we say, reasons that would affect his interests, his business interests.
And that's a great shame and there's a number of people within the class themselves as I say in the truth movement who are doing a disservice to people in And all of the information, which is a great shame, but I suppose it's only to be expected.
There's a very good business model with the pharmaceutical companies, isn't there?
You know, to keep themselves supplied with ready and waiting consumers.
You know, if they could really cure everybody of things, I mean, they would soon lose their... They'd have no customers.
They'd have no customers, wouldn't they?
So that's not a good business model.
But it's not only just about making models.
I mean, we do cover vested interests in our book.
It's not only people may think it's just about making money for the pharmaceutical companies, but it isn't.
You know, yes, they make vast amounts of money, obscene amounts of money.
But there is an agenda behind that, which is making no bones about it.
It is the control of humanity worldwide.
And that's really what the COVID Scandemic, don't give it a word, is about really, it's about the agenda that people, if people like to talk about the pyramid of control, and so if we use that metaphor, the people at the top of that pyramid who are perpetrating this crime against humanity, let's call it what it is,
They know full well what they're doing, and they know full well that they're looking to gain control of the people, because we're difficult to control, aren't we?
They've already got control of the world resources, you know, but getting control of people is like trying to herd cats, isn't it?
You know, it's really difficult, and particularly people like yourselves and us, you know, who can see through their Lies and falsehoods you know we're not having any of it and that's a growing number of people I mean that's the one of the good things about this whole Covid myth is that it's woken more people up now than have ever woken up before to the lies of the authorities and it's not just the misconceptions of the medical system
But the actual lies that are going on behind it and the agendas, the political agendas, because it is a political thing, that are going on in the background.
And more people are woken up to that now and then are starting to question the whole political system.
They're starting to question the banking system and see what a fraud that is, the legal system.
And so this is a good thing.
So, in a way, and I have used the term, I'm coming from some criticism, when I said it's sort of the Covid thing is like a blessing in disguise, really.
That it's, like Charles Dickens said at the beginning of his book, Tale of Two Cities, you know, it's the best of times and it's the worst of times.
And that's really what we're at, you know.
But people then say, well, what about all the people that have died from Covid?
And I said, nobody's died from Covid, I can assure you.
I see the same thing, yeah.
I said, no, no one.
I said, and I've challenged people.
I said, show me, show me somewhere where someone has proved that someone's died of COVID.
And I said, look at what happened in the UK and other countries.
I said, as soon as they brought in the emergency measures, At the beginning of 2020, they banned autopsies on anyone that was supposed to have died of COVID.
I said, now ask yourself, why would they do that?
It's for the simple reason that, you know, a genuine autopsy would show that there was no new disease that that person had died of.
It was something, you know, common a garden.
All people die all the time.
And we found the same thing had happened in Sweden.
And we're talking to some Swedish guys in an interview that one clinic decided they were going to do an autopsy or two on COVID people, people that had died of COVID supposedly.
And they realized that again, there was no new disease.
They died of, you know, the common garden stuff.
And so they were quickly closed down.
And this is what happened.
So again, these pointers show the public, if they're aware of it, that the authorities are lying to them and deliberately concealing the truth about this whole tragedy that we're going through.
There are still sort of a lot of people that are confused about certain things, as you were saying before, Mark, about the kind of, you know, the The different labels, you say, well, Covid is just a relabelling of the flu.
You say, well, actually, the flu isn't what we are taught about the flu either.
So again, it's getting people to those next stages.
And we find that a lot of people find it Really difficult to think, you know, to get to that point that there are not, there aren't lots of different kind of diseases that they can get or whatever and catch.
And so that is quite a big step for them.
So they, they think, oh, well, you know, at least if people are realizing that, you know, vaccines are dangerous, then that's a good step.
You say, well, yes, it is a step, but they need to keep going and not get lost in the idea.
Well, you know, this vaccine is dangerous, but there are other viruses and you can get infected.
No, because of the situation that we're in, you know, it is important for people to take that next step to realize that there aren't lots of other conditions and to understand what symptoms actually are.
And, you know, I know you're doing the same thing as well.
It's so important for people to To take that next step.
And I know a lot of people find it confusing because I'm sure you get the same thing.
Oh, you know, as well as people saying, oh, well, I, I got COVID.
Oh, well, you know, we, we got this or, you know, we had that.
Well, what about, you know, so again, the, what about chickenpox and measles?
And I know you've, you've covered that as well.
So you must have got the same kind of thing.
You know, people ask and say, well, you know, and again, why did we all get in at the same time?
You know, there's all those sorts of things.
And it's really difficult to say, well, it's not this, If it's not that one thing, it's not this other one thing, because there's always multiple combinations of possibilities.
And so it's very difficult to say, well, we can't give you the answer because they want a replacement for their idea of what it was.
They want a replacement, and it's not easy to say what it could be.
So we often say to people, look, because we don't live your life, we don't live in your environment, we don't know what you eat and drink in your workplace, so we can't tell you what it is that's made you ill, but we can certainly tell you what it isn't, and it isn't a germ.
So I said, you know, start from that basis.
Forget the idea that it's bacteria or fungi or viruses or something.
Forget that.
And then you've got to look at what it is that's made you ill.
And let's start from a sound, solid, scientific basis.
And once people get that idea in their head, then they can start to examine their life, their lifestyle.
You know, as we've pointed out to people, you know, cases of people becoming ill because of their clothes, you know, what they're wearing, you know, the fact they may have them dry cleaned.
And the dry-cleaning chemicals soak into their skin when they sweat.
I mean, we often quote the case of the pianist Liberace, who almost died because he had his suits dry-cleaned every night.
And eventually he nearly died because his kidneys were shutting down because of the dry-cleaning chemicals that were soaking, when he sweated, soaked into his skin and were poisoning him and he almost killed him.
And when you say, you know, that was just through your laundry, as it were, I feel sorry for people who work in dry cleaning places.
I mean, you know, you can smell the chemicals, but I mean, you know, they're pretty nasty.
So these are the things we try to point out to people so they can start to re-examine their lives, literally what they put in and on their body.
There are some things, you know, that people are exposed to that they can't control.
For instance, chemtrails, you know, we talk about that.
There are still people that think it's just condensation.
But as we point out, you know, we've talked to pilots, we've looked at how what jet engines are, you know, modern jet engines do not produce great long trails that across from horizon to horizon that then sort of slowly spread out for the rest of the day.
Modern jet engines don't do that.
So you have to ask, so what is it something's been sprayed?
And I've Examine the skies over a number of years to watch what these things are and you know with good pairs of binoculars you can see when some of these planes you know the stuff is coming from uh nozzles which are placed on the near the tail fin of the planes they're not coming from the engines and another thing is with software that I've got which is quite legal software anyone where you can track planes because all planes
Commercial or any plane is supposed to put out a call sign, a number which is distinct to it, which tells you everything about the plane, where it comes from and where it's going.
And you can see this.
But whenever you try to track the ones that are making these trails, they emit no signal at all, which tells you that they're not commercial airlines or anything like that.
They're military or military contractors, which means they're up to no good, really.
Because why are they keeping it secret as to who they are, what they are, where they've come from, what they're doing?
So it's little things like this that are the pointers to realize that chemtrails are not natural exhaust from aircraft.
It's additional poisoning, you know, some people have been able to get samples and I think some of it's been seen to be nanoparticles of aluminium, there's barium I think in there, even fly ash in some of them, you know, which is the sort of extracts from coal fired Power stations, stuff that has no business being spread into our atmosphere and is toxic.
So again, we can't control that, but we can only, if you like, draw it to people's attention.
And at least something, I think when these lies are exposed and enough people start to understand they're being lied to about chemtrails, then they can, there may be things that they can do.
EMFs, again, as an electrical engineer I have meters where I can measure what the strength of various EMFs are and I often recommend to people that as a group they can buy one.
A decent one costs in the UK a couple of hundred pounds.
A Trifield meter, yeah a Trifield meter.
It will measure up to about six gigahertz so you can at least get an indication.
And we sort of say, yeah, it's not cheap, you know, you can buy cheaper ones, but they're just not accurate enough.
So if they spend, as you say, a couple of hundred dollars, a couple hundred pounds on one of these meters as a group, and we find that, you know, the little discussion groups, you know, they club together and buy one because you don't need to use it all the time, and then they can all share it.
I just put in a few pounds in each but it's the only way you can really see what's going off in your environment as regards EMFs and then you can make decisions about it you know you may want to move your favorite armchair away from your router or find out what's coming through the wall from your next door neighbor or something and but some things you can't do much about but if you mitigate the circumstances you know like don't hold your
Cell phone to your head, you know, use it hands-free.
One of the surprising things that I tell people, because it was surprising to me, is the Bluetooth earphones, you know, Bluetooth headsets, you know, which work on about two and a half gigahertz.
And you really, if you stick them, you know, the in ear buds, it's like putting a radio transmitter in your head really, which is not a good idea.
And when I measured the power output from the ones I had from some years ago, I was horrified.
So they went back in the box and I've never used them since.
So go back to, it's not as convenient, but go back to the wired ones, you know.
Not as convenient, I know, but you have to ask yourself, well, what price health?
Do you really want to, over the years, end up with a brain tumour because you've been sticking a radio transmitter in your head?
You know, not really.
So it's little things, you know, you can do to mitigate your exposure to EMS.
Stress, of course.
Take away the fear, you know, stress is born out of fear and fear of germs, which they've, I mean, I'm sure it's been the same in New Zealand as it's been in the UK, where the government and the media have bombarded people every day, every day, about the dangers.
Oh, you know, there's more people died this week than last week.
All sorts of nonsense and scaring the hell out of people.
What do you both see as some of the remedies for...
The kind of situation that we're in right now.
What do you both, what are your thoughts on that?
The first thing is to remove anything that makes you fearful.
And so knowing that there are no germs removes a huge amount of fear.
And also the information, you know, with a lot of what Dave was just saying, it's not about making people scared of what's in their environment, but it's to provide them with the information because then you can do something about it.
It's not it's not to say, oh, you know, there's all this stuff you've got to be scared of.
But when you when you have that information, you can then start looking at everything, you know, the products that you buy, you know, especially cleaning products and things with perfumes and things.
So it's really what you expose yourself to.
And the more you can, you know, yeah, read the labels of what you're buying and then reduce those with chemicals, try to get back to more
Natural products, although you've got to be careful of the label natural because it doesn't always mean what we think it means So it's it's just we often say arsenic is natural It's really starting to Just just take be more proactive with what you're doing what you're buying what you're exposing yourself to I'm sorry, excuse me, but also if you're taking yourself out of a place of fear and
That is also a large amount of it because when you're in that place of fear, you know, you just, it just affects everything.
So when you come out of that place of fear, you can be more proactive and you, you know, it's, it's much more uplifting and beneficial mentally and physically.
So again, you can start taking more, more action and you know, it's, it has a,
a sort of a sort of a self-fulfilling kind of prophecy that the better you feel the more you do the better you feel the more you do so it's it does actually keep keep going forward it helps you to keep going forward making different decisions and that's and sharing the information with other people connecting with like-minded people trying not to be drawn into other people's fears and worries and if you can't
Help them come out of their fears and worries, then you might have to just change the people you interact with.
And that's what we found a lot of people are doing.
That if they have people in their lives that, you know, are really on the completely opposite side of the fence, as it were, you just, you say, well, you just can't interact with them.
But if people are curious, then, you know, you know, you can start having a conversation.
You know if they're open minded and say, oh, you know, that sounds interesting, you know, you can have a conversation and start helping them and then building more interactions and connections and just when you start seeing that sort of out there in the world it starts spreading and so it's It helps you feel that you know you're sort of doing something.
It's taking actions but also taking yourself out of the fear.
But there's also another aspect which I won't go into in great depth because it moves into the nature of reality really and the nature of what human beings are, you know, as conscious beings.
And so I sometimes refer to you may be familiar with the story they called the hundredth monkey.
Have you come across that the story of the hundredth monkey?
I'll just briefly say what it is.
It was some anthropologists some years ago on the Japanese islands and they were observing a troop of monkeys on one of the islands.
And they could see that when they threw them some sweet potatoes land in the sand and gravel they'd just pick them up, the monkeys that were, and eat them.
But after a short while they noticed one monkey started to take its sweet potato down to the water's edge and wash it and then eat it.
And then after a little while the rest of the monkeys in the troop did the same.
Now you may think, oh well nothing too remarkable about that, that's a sea monkey, monkeys just copying one another.
But what the really interesting thing was, is that on the neighbouring island, Japanese island, which had no physical contact with this first troop of monkeys, all the monkeys in that troop started doing the same thing, going and washing their sweet potatoes.
And it's called The 100th Monkey, you can look this one up.
But what that says to me is something that Dr. Rupert Sheldrake had written about many, many years ago.
I think, did he call it bioresonance or something like that?
Morphic resonance.
Morphic resonance, that's what he called it.
But it's this strange connection through consciousness of things.
And he'd noticed it with, like, birds.
Back in the day, of course we don't have it anymore, when milk bottles had got aluminium tops on them.
And that, you know, first a few blue tits, which are little birds in the UK, had started realising they could peck through the tin foil and get the cream off the top of the milk.
And after a while, lots of them, they're all doing it, you know, in different parts of the country.
So obviously we know, and human beings are the same.
I'm not liking them to Troops of Monkeys or Flops of Bluetits, of course, but we are connected.
We are connected through consciousness as indeed all things are.
As I say, I won't labour it too much because it gets very deep and it's a separate subject, but This is where my and Dawn's optimism come from.
We know that because of how humanity is connected and because there is an awakening, you know, us and people like you and many thousands of others, and even though we don't have physical contact with everyone in the world, but our consciousness does, And it ripples out like throwing a stone in a pond.
It ripples out through consciousness and it affects all things.
And this is where the real power of people realizing what they are and the power they have and just how fantastic they are, not only from a physical body but what their true nature is and what the true nature of reality is.
And it was seen in archaeology many thousands of years ago when pyramids all started being built.
You know there may be pyramids being built in Egypt and then they were built in South America and other parts Mesopotamia all where the civilizations had no physical contact with one another at the time but everyone started building pyramids.
That's just another little example where there's something happens and it's all through conscious connections and this whole thing this whole Crime against humanity will be overturned by humanity, not appealing to the authorities because they're the problem, they're not the solution, but humanity is the solution and this connection through consciousness will overcome the difficulties that many people are experiencing in the world.
And we'll bring around a much more enlightened age.
I have no doubts about it.
And that's what this is really all about.
That's why I can say it's a blessing in disguise.
Yes, there are people being killed by vaccinations.
And that's very unfortunate and we're trying to help people realise that so that less and less people are killed by vaccinations.
So yes, we're optimistic for the future.
We do see it coming to an end and for some of the reasons through education and through this mysterious connection in consciousness that we all have as human beings.
Just coming back to what you were saying a little bit earlier about the, there's a little bit of a rift in the Truth in Movement, if you want to give it a name.
And I think you guys are very much on the same page as us in terms of... We love you!
Aw, we love you too!
But there's no, we don't have some, we don't start with some agenda and then see how to fulfill it.
What we do is we research topics and we just keep on going.
Until we get to the bottom of them.
And you don't set out with a preconceived idea.
I mean, as you know, we were trained in the conventional system.
We believed what we've been taught to a large extent.
And these days we simply go back and go right through the research and see what we can find.
So when people want to get into debates about face masks, for us it's pointless because there's no such thing as contagion.
When people want to look at One vaccine over another vaccine, etc.
We said there's no point.
That's the wrong model.
Germ theory is completely false.
You don't need to do that.
And I think, as you say, it gets confusing for people when some people who are saying, I'm searching for the truth, stop at a certain point and say, I'm not going beyond this point.
I'm not going to look into germ theory, or I'm not going to look into whether some vaccines Whether there are any vaccines that are okay.
They stop at a certain point.
And I know we feel that's what we really loved about your book.
You didn't have like a line where you stopped and said, I'm not going over this line.
You just keep on going.
And I mean, you guys started out in the same place as we did, that you thought that germ theory was valid.
You thought that vaccines were okay.
And now you're at the same place we are, where you say this is simply not true.
And I think also for us, um, it's really interesting now because people ask us, well, how do I find a good doctor?
You know, which GP can I see?
And you're like, well, did you listen to what we're saying?
You don't need us in the sense of, um, you know, we're not like mechanics or something.
We can just, um, provide education to the public now and we're not talking about acute things like someone's in a car accident and you know they need help but almost that's that's not really medicine in some ways that's more like technical skills that can be used um no i was just going to say one of the questions that we get asked about well you know what kind of doctor do i look for is because often people are on a number of medications and
I mean, obviously, we, you know, we tell them we can't help them.
But we can't give them advice, you know, in that way.
But if they're on lots of medications, they want to come off them.
Because some of them, people can stop.
And some of them need to be tapered some, you know, the person needs to be monitored as they come off and that kind of thing.
So there probably is a role for people who can help people In that place, you know, so that's their transitioning because obviously, you know, as I say, some medications, as far as I'm aware.
Well, they're addictive.
Yeah, but they can't be stopped immediately.
So again, there would be a place for people with your kind of knowledge to be able to help them know what they can taper off and how they can taper off and what they would need to do and what they need to monitor, you know, which particular you know, sort of things they would need to keep checking, you know, you know, sort of their blood or the blood pressure or various different things as they taper just to make sure that their body is coping with that reduction.
Because obviously the body then needs to adapt to looking after itself without all that other stuff coming in.
So again, it's like coming off something like heroin.
But it takes time.
You can't just come off it, you know.
Well, I mean, that's with some of the work.
I mean, one of the influencers we had was Dr. Peter Breggin with his work on toxic psychiatry.
I mean, we don't agree with everything he says because he still believes in germs.
I know but his work on just how dangerous the psychotropic drugs are that you know in his early in his early days that he was giving to people for as medication and you know he's written numerous books you know things like you know your drug could be your problem you know and
done research with a lot of the like the school killings in America over the years you know and the young men who were then seem to be on some of these medications which some of the so-called side effects are you know self-harming and all sorts of things suicidal yeah so anyway but that's that's a whole new topic but that was something again we had to look into And I'm pretty sure we write about that in the book as well.
It's a number of years.
So, so yeah, it's those sorts of things of where, you know, as I say, people can't and like you say, you know, people don't need to go to the doctor, you know, just because they've got, you know, a fever and something else.
But at the same time, there are There will be a transition for many people.
So there is a place for something to help people transition into the place where they then can take full responsibility.
Well, I think people like you are going to be ideal for people to go to.
I mean, I don't know.
I mean, legally, we can't give medical anything that can be construed as medical advice.
You know, this is the constraints of the legal system, certainly in the UK.
We better clarify here that neither can we anymore.
That was going to be my question.
The problem is obviously people talk to us about drugs and we don't know what they are.
You're more likely to know what they are.
So you'd be in trouble if we couldn't pass people to you then?
No, we're not practicing within the system anymore.
I mean, in New Zealand, like most places, our medical council are basically a criminal organisation.
It's a cult.
A cult.
Yes, yes.
Do you know, I actually got out of clinical medicine in 2016 because I was not happy with allopathic medicine, and back in 2016 I was encouraging Sam to get out of it as well, but she actually had a research job that she loved with a lot of patients that loved her, and she stayed on doing that.
And anyway, earlier this year, there's a message on my phone from the Medical Council saying, Oh, we're, we're investigating you because of, you know, what you've been saying and that you're not supporting the vaccine program.
And I didn't even respond, of course.
I'm not going to get involved with that.
And ended up issuing an equity notice to them, which is, you know, through equity law.
Like common law, yeah.
It's like a common law thing.
And anyway, I served them with two notices and said that basically they had no case whatsoever.
And then they took me off the public register, which is good.
That's what I wanted to be off.
So, in fact, it's quite funny now.
Now that I'm off the register, I can actually give people advice about their medications.
And it's really strange.
Whereas when I was on the register, they'd say that I was practicing without a license.
But, yeah, coming back to your point, yeah.
Yeah, for most people they can get off their medications.
If they've had, there are certain situations, if they've had an organ transplant or if they've had various procedures, surgical procedures to their bodies, that there may be medications they do need to stay on.
But for your average person, They can really get off their medications.
The other thing I really think about, which I've sort of come to appreciate more recently, is that we can all become our own experts in these areas.
Like, I think there's this phobia of this, because we're like, I don't want to make the wrong decision, I need someone else to make that decision for me.
But it's like, if I really want to learn about electrical engineering, I know I can, and I know, you know, I don't want to be arrogant about it, but it's that thing of like, whatever you want to learn about, you can do it.
And you guys are the perfect example of that, of showing You're going to write a book, this phenomenal book, and blow the lid on all sorts of things and help people, you know, really help people.
And I think people shouldn't feel fearful of doing their own research and looking into it themselves because it's amazing.
And I'm probably like you guys too, the audience, the people that follow me, I mean, they, for all I say, they ask the most incredible questions.
And I'm like, okay, I don't know about this.
I need to look into it.
You know, they really challenge you.
And it's this, you've got to like step up your game to keep up with everybody else.
And, and I think you have done a phenomenal, phenomenal job with your book.
Yeah.
And I'd also say you, you don't have to worry about being accused of not having the right qualifications because we have the right qualifications and then we're told that we don't get to have an opinion either.
I mean, I think it's the weakest argument, as Sam says, we've met people who have no formal education in the system.
One person I think you guys know is Steve Faulkner, for instance, he's from Spacebusters.
Yeah, we're actually talking to him in a couple of days.
Doesn't he just blows your mind?
We'll be looking deeply into a topic and we think we've uncovered everything and then you have a chat to Steve and then he'll send you something that's so left field that you never even considered and it's just amazing and he's one of those guys that's just got this natural curiosity and he didn't need to be formally trained he just taught himself how to do it.
He has a great knack of in his videos of being able to put it in simple terms that anyone can understand and that's a real gift I mean, we tried very hard to do that in our book, you know, to write in ways that everyone could understand.
You know, you didn't need to be a microbiologist or something to understand what we were saying.
I know there's a lot of information in there, but we tried to write it in a way that anyone could read it and understand where we were going.
And Steve has that great knack of being able to do that in a video, you know, and he's a great down-to-earth guy and has a real gift for that.
So that's great.
But it's good that, you know, there's sort of lots of us coming from different backgrounds and have different styles.
And so, you know, not everyone might like our style or, you know, or whatever it is, you know, so that they can pick up information from, you know, all of us, you know, in different ways.
But I do have to say, it is really lovely to hear that two people who were trained in the medical system, you know, are agreeing with what we've got in our book because again that you know it's It's really heartening to know that because we do get that, well, how do you know?
You're not a doctor, so how do you know?
Yeah, because there was an attack hit piece.
I never read it, but it was on science-based medicine.
I'm familiar with that site, and basically as soon as... I forget the guy's name, but he's an egregious character.
Well, somebody told me about that and I looked at the title and it said, no, everything you thought about disease isn't wrong.
So I just thought, no, it's a hit piece.
I didn't even bother reading it.
Because, yeah, it was early days and it, you know, might have upset me a bit but anyway I've just ignored it.
There'll always be the naysayers.
Yes, there was no point engaging in that argument.
There'll always be people who want to criticise and some of course are paid to do it, let's make no bones about it.
There are people out there, trolls who are just rude, but there are people that are paid to try and disrupt the sort of things that we say and i did just want to say as well and i hope i'm not sounding sycophantic because we're great fans of your videos that you do as well we think you you do a great job and put and put things forward in a really good way and obviously they're very popular so i hope you realize that you're doing a damn good job too thank you oh thank you and No, it's lovely to, I mean, the feeling's all very mutual.
I think, I was just going to say, I had a person, like a little blog, write, why Sam Bailey is wrong, and it just, that was the title of the blog, of the, you know, and it just, in some ways, I just think, oh, isn't that cute?
This is what they have to do!
I can't help but laugh at them.
That's the best thing to do.
I think too, and you guys will know this, Sam's found her audience size is basically limited by censorship.
Back when she was allowed to promote most of her stuff on YouTube, she was getting thousands of subscribers a day were joining the channel.
There was such an appetite to see this material.
And, you know, Big Tech basically worked out what the message was that was going out and started doing it.
And very heavy censorship and, you know, that's why we can't go on Facebook or Instagram or anything like that.
Twitter, yeah.
All of our material basically gets banned straight away.
So, it's interesting and I'm sure for you guys it would be the same.
I mean, if Oprah Winfrey had you guys on as Book of the Week, Suddenly you'd be the New York Times bestseller.
And that's just the reality of the world that we're living in, is that the sort of content that we're producing, there's actually a really healthy appetite for it, but only a tiny proportion of the population is aware that it even exists.
Most of them just simply, they haven't heard the name of your book, or they haven't heard the name of Sam's channel.
But I think it's important that we know that that's what the limitation is.
It's not because people are not interested.
I think they genuinely are.
Yeah, I mean we stopped putting anything on YouTube because any of the real meaty stuff just got deleted.
So I actually put a little video on there saying we're not posting to YouTube anymore.
Come and look at our website or Odyssey.
We've not had anything deleted off Odyssey.
So yeah, so we don't, which is a great shame because Unfortunately a lot of people go to YouTube and you could get lots more views but there's no point if they take it down sometimes within hours of you putting it up there so it's pointless you know.
But I also wonder if the actual subscribers and the numbers and all that kind of thing is manipulated as well.
So as you say, you know, your numbers were dropping, but was that, were they real?
Or was it, you know, behind the scenes, they were actually, you know, clicking your numbers down and stopping, you know, so we know they can do all these sorts of things behind the scenes.
So again, even if you appear to only have a small number of subscribers, are there really more people who are
interested but you know the numbers are artificially kept low for some reason but again all we all we can do is just keep delivering the message put it out put the information out and know that it's it's going out it's being shared you know we we see our stuff in some you know surprising places you think oh i didn't know they'd picked up on that so it's lovely to see that it's you know it's out there and i'm sure you must get the same you know with your videos and people sharing them
Mirroring them on their odyssey channels and different things so you know it is The information is getting out there.
Big time.
Sorry, where can people find you and your book and buy your book?
Because I would strongly recommend people to buy your book.
Thank you.
Well, the easiest place to go for any information about us or the work we do is our website, which is whatreallymakesyouwell.com, which is also the main title of the book.
Obviously, you can't buy the book off our website, but you can buy the audiobook.
There's an audio version of it and you can only buy that off our website.
The actual Kindle, as you know, and the actual book itself appears in all sorts of online bookstores.
And including Amazon, yeah.
Well, I think the Kindle's only available on Amazon.
Well, it's only sold by Amazon.
But so, I mean, all books end up on Amazon.
Well, unless they get banned, but we didn't get banned.
People have often said to us, how come your book didn't get banned?
And I said, well, because there's not, it doesn't say COVID in that.
In fact, because we, our book was released at Christmas 2019.
So it was just a few weeks before COVID hit the world.
What did you think of that?
Yeah, that's a little bit suspicious.
It sounds to me like you have some inside information.
Yeah, I know.
We sort of planned the whole thing.
It was amazing timing because your book talks about Agenda 2030.
What did you think of this?
How did you react to that?
These things are meant to be, aren't they?
And we smile about it quite often.
That's why we say we don't believe in coincidences.
We had genuinely no idea that... Which is just as well.
Yeah.
And it just so happened that our book was ready with the publishers.
And out he came, Christmas 2019, and then within a few weeks, COVID hit the world, you know, and people going, oh, this is amazing!
When I first saw the book, I thought it was, it had come out in 2020.
And I thought that, I thought that is an astounding amount of work to do within the space of a few months, because I thought that had been, and then I looked back and said, oh my goodness, that was actually published in December 2019, which meant that it was being prepared well before that.
It's probably helped your book sales a bit.
Definitely, yeah.
I mean it did.
It surprised us, you know.
On some days we couldn't believe, you know, because we can track the amount of sales in any particular day of course.
It was amazing, you know, we thought, crikey, you know, if this continues, we'll buy a yacht and an island.
But I must say, book sales are much harder than most people think, aren't they?
And you have to keep It's hard work because, as I say, unless you're getting promoted by the Wall Street Journal or Oprah Winfrey or something like that, we find it funny too that people think that, oh, Sam must have taken this position to make a whole lot of money or something, and you're like, books are not the way to do it.
They're not.
And talking, I mean, all of these, like yourselves, all our interviews we do, we don't charge for them, we don't make any money out of it.
No.
When we've been touring around the UK, you know, England and Wales and Scotland, all of which we've done, I mean, it's all at our expense.
You know, people ask us, well, how much do you charge?
We say, well, we don't charge, you know, if you make enough, because people obviously sell tickets for these things.
We said, if you can cover your costs and you've got a bit left over you want to share with us, All well and good, but I mean, it doesn't cover our costs.
We do it because we want to get the message out there.
I'm not trying to say we're sort of saints or anything like that, but we have a passion to share the knowledge and that's why we do what we do.
Fortunately, I mean, I'm retired from engineering some years and Dawn doesn't work as an accountant and we just spend that time doing this and we're fortunate.
To be able to do that.
And, well, we can pay the bills.
If people keep buying our book, we can pay the bills and continue to do what we do.
You're so youthful and lovely.
I just want to give you a hug.
One day, yes.
One day we'll come and see you.
I do have relatives.
So one day when all this nonsense has stopped, which it will soon, I mean, we've been invited to go to America and do talks, but America still insists on vaccinations.
And so we said, no, we're not.
We'd love to come.
But whenever they've got these restrictions, we're not.
We've never taken part in it.
We've never worn masks, social distanced or done anything.
You know, we've got, we go out of our way not to do these things and we've been okay.
It's not very often we get challenged and we always put them down.
So not literally, but no, we, and we encourage people, you know, We often use a quote from Solzhenitsyn, which I can't remember word for word, but he's basically saying, you know, to be a courageous person, just don't take part in the lie.
And that's really all people need to do.
Just don't take part in the lie and it will collapse.
And that's easy to do, isn't it?
Relatively easy to do.
So what is the situation in New Zealand at the moment then?
Yeah, I mean it's still COVID mania here.
Masks.
People are wearing masks.
The radio is constantly telling people to go and get their third and fourth Injections it's absolute it's madness.
They've got a lot of children wearing face masks in the schools at the moment It's really it's really disgusting what's going on here, but I mean like you we just try and lead by an example, and we don't we've never Taken part in any of the rituals that have been going on here for the last two and a half years like last year Sam gave
Birth to our youngest while in the hospital and we arrived and we said we're not doing any of your COVID things and this was during the most severe lockdown period.
It was actually quite funny because I totally freaked out.
The obstetrician, you know the... We just said we're coming in.
We're coming in and there's these crazy anti-vaxxer doctors that are coming in that don't want to wear masks and I think they were so nervous about us.
And we arrived, you know, and the security's there going, oh, you need to put masks on, and I'm just going, Sam's waters are broke, you know, on the floor, and I'm like, what are you going to do?
We're coming in.
They let us in, and the hospital environment, it was absolutely terrible.
The staff were all stressed out with this COVID nonsense, and we actually got out of there incredibly quickly.
Sam had barely recovered, and we just left the place.
You know, because people always say to us, oh, but you have to do this and you have to do that.
And we said, well, we just went into the hospital and didn't do any of it and came back out again.
And I think it's, and you guys understand because you've looked into more than just health as well.
A lot of this stuff has no standing in law.
It doesn't matter when they set mandates or have press conferences and this sort of stuff.
If we don't agree to it, we're not contracted to do these things.
It's standing your ground and realising just what...
Right you really have because again, but you don't have to argue with him It's just just knowing that you don't have to do that and to say no.
thank you very much, I'm not doing that, and just carry on.
And I'm sure, you know, because you've both got a very calm manner and, you know, that you would have just said no, no thank you, and carry on.
And that's it.
You don't have to get yourself worked up and have an argument with somebody.
You just stand.
And quite often, if you are confident, that energy is sort of projected out and the people know it, and somehow they leave you to just get on with it because you're just projecting the right energy.
Somehow you just keep going.
And it's great, you know.
But well done, both of you, you know, because, you know, going into the hospital environment in the way you had to, I mean, that's going into the lion's den, isn't it?
You know, and then not not complying.
I mean, so, you know, hats off to you for that, because most people had gone, oh, you know, I want to see my loved one or whatever it is, so I'll do anything you tell me so I can get in there.
And of course, that's that's the trap, isn't it?
You know, where they coerce people into obeying their stupid rules.
So, yeah, so well done that you stood your ground and didn't comply.
Well, the other thing you would have loved was... I had to have an emergency seizure, unfortunately.
Yeah, but soon after he was born, we're in the theatre there, the delivery suite, and everyone's, you know, there's the nurses and the midwife and the obstetrician and everyone.
And then they say, all right, now do you want us to put, now what are the details for the vaccination register?
And I say, no, he's not going on the register.
And you could have heard a pin drop.
We're standing in this room and everyone's just looking completely awkward.
You know, it was absolutely priceless.
And for us as doctors who had come through the system, Just to see what it must be like for people who are not familiar with all this stuff and the absolute pressure that they must feel under to comply with all these rituals.
And I think it was eventually the obstetrician who broke the silence and said, Well, that will save some paperwork for us, OK?
Brilliant.
But it's great that you call them rituals, because that is all they are.
Yeah, our kids, they don't go to a doctor, obviously, and we don't consider ourselves mainstream doctors either, but it's often when people ask us, They say your kids look so remarkably healthy.
And we say to them, that's because we don't take them to the doctor.
And you get such an awkward kind of reaction.
They don't go to the doctor and they're not vaccinated.
And I think as you guys know, it creates quite a problem for them because the evidence is that people like us Have been through this COVID era.
We haven't done any of their suggested remedies and quotes.
We haven't taken any of their toxic injections etc.
We haven't worn face masks and yet somehow we're all perfectly healthy and happy.
Exactly.
Yes, we're thriving, thank you.
Yes, we're the control group.
We're the control group, aren't we?
Yeah, it was interesting.
I don't know whether you get the newspaper, the Light newspaper, I know it's online, I don't know whether you ever pick it up, but it was interesting and you've probably heard of Dr Vernon Coleman.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, for some strange reason, he still believes in viruses.
I've never understood that.
In spite of the fact that he has written a lot of good stuff over the years.
I mean, he's a retired GP.
But it was interesting to see that he made a comment in the Light newspaper only about a week or so ago, where he said, the person most likely to kill you is your doctor.
And I thought that's quite a bold statement from an ex-GP.
So yeah, we agree with some of that.
Yeah, well, I mean, you're obviously aware of Barbara Starfield's work in 2000, where she basically blew the lid on these 225,000 deaths a year.
And keep in mind, that was just hospital deaths.
And we know from being inside the system, I mean, we've seen patients be, you know, killed by treatments within the system, and just watch how the system just covers it up and says, well, it was the result of the disease it was the system yeah but we could see it was the system that killed them so i mean starfield's work should have caused the entire medical systems around the world to to pause to stop what they were doing and say well look at this we're actually killing people
Yeah, true.
One of the things I've noticed recently is something that's come up that's shown that because of all the lockdowns and everything and that a lot of children were missing out on their sort of usual vaccine sort of schedule and in fact the rate of SIDS has dramatically dropped.
Really?
Interesting.
But I mean, again, we cover that in the book.
And even though it's not recognised to be a direct sort of causative effect, there is a correlation between vaccines and SIDS.
And but the fact that it's noticeably dropped in 2020 when, you know, because of the lockdowns, you know, nobody was going anywhere and you couldn't get to a doctor and all of that.
So, yeah, I mean, that's That should be very interesting material for people who still think that vaccinations are important for protecting children, when in fact there's plenty of evidence that shows it's the complete opposite.
There's a recent report where the rise in liver transplants for children under five Which sounds incredible, doesn't it?
But this is reported in the... This hepatitis thing.
Yeah, mainstream press over here.
And they're all sort of mystified.
Why should this be?
Why should there be, you know, but when you think about it, you know, when they start vaccinating children from, I think, about two months old, and then they, you know, the vaccination regime is quite horrific, really, isn't it, for children and young adults.
It's you know as we know the liver is the main detox organ you know anything toxic is going to go through the liver.
It's hardly surprising that younger children than ever have got damaged livers and of course now it's
been reported in the mainstream but of course they don't attribute the fact that these under fives are requiring liver transplants to uh you know it's just one of these mystery things because it's uh yeah a habitat one of the hepatitis viruses oh is it no it's a new it's a oh they're given a new one isn't it attributing it to an adenovirus yes yeah okay so and this is what they do
It's changing the names and messing people about and creating all these different new names.
Well, and hiding the real problem, you know, always.
Anything to hide the real problem, absolutely.
So anyway, but this is the sort of stuff we come across all the time and obviously, like yourselves, you know, the research doesn't stop.
I mean, we're looking into sort of areas like genetics more.
I mean, it's not something we're unaware of, but Obviously, we know, as I'm sure you do, you know, we're not prisoners of our genes.
You know, genes are not fixed things.
Geneticists are starting to realize this.
I was interested to see, not so long ago, one of their conferences.
The team of high-level geneticists couldn't even agree on what an actual gene was.
Yeah.
And I thought, well, that's quite an astounding statement to make.
So, yes.
So, and of course, consciousness is a big interest of ours as to quite the role that plays.
And the body, you know, is the biofield, the body's biofield a real thing?
It appears to be.
And what effect that can have on interaction?
So these are areas of research that we're looking into.
And so if we write another book about this, maybe they'll be part of that.
If we get time, that is, to write another book.
I feel like I'm just grateful for your time and to be able to talk about, finally connect really, even if it's across the digital sphere.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, no, it's a great pleasure.
And as I say, we've been aware of your work and admired your work for some time.
And so it's great to actually be able to talk to you.
You know, you're lovely people, you're natural people, you know, there's no edge to you.
And we like to think we're the same.
We have no edge.
We're just, we are what you see and we try to be as natural as possible.
And I think people relate to that as they relate to your work, you know, so onwards and upwards, as they say.
David, thank you.
Dawn, thank you.
And hopefully we'll catch up again soon.
That would be brilliant.
Thank you very much.
Thank you both very much.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
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