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July 10, 2021 - Jim Fetzer
01:00:27
The Real Deal (10 July 2021) with Bill MacGregor
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This is Jim Fetzer, your host on The Real Deal.
Today's a highly unusual Interview with Bill McGregor, who is a pastor of Trinity Baptist in a Canadian church, who has views that most will regard as highly unusual.
He's offering a theological framework for understanding UFO phenomena.
I am interviewing him to give an opportunity for him to present his views without thereby endorsing them.
And of course, Bill will be, I'm sure, glad to respond to various questions and comments I may have as we proceed.
Bill, welcome to The Real Deal.
Please give us a little background about yourself.
Thanks for having me on, Jim.
And it is my privilege.
So yes, I'm Bill McGregor.
I'm the pastor of Trinity Baptist Church here in the City of Toronto.
Address is 1175 Victoria Park Avenue, Toronto.
And our website is trinitybaptistchurchtoronto.com.
That's where the website is for the church.
And so yeah, I'm born in 1966.
I'm a father.
I got children and also I'm a pastor here.
My dad is the pastor emeritus of this church.
And so we are operating here in the City of Toronto I have been for a number of years now, and I'm also perhaps more well known than maybe some of your audience for a book that I wrote a couple years ago called The Tuning Fork, and that's found at thetuningfork.com, thetuningfork.com, and that's a book that I wrote, which I do happen to have a copy of right here, and you can access it there.
Tell us a little about your educational history.
You're obviously an intelligent, articulate guy.
Tell me a little about where you went to school and such.
Sure, I went to London Baptist Bible College in the city of London, Ontario, Canada, and then I did my Master's at Hiles Anderson College, which is outside of Chicago, and that was my education.
And from there, I've taken other courses and degrees that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I'm always studying, that's for sure.
I mean, you're a good student.
You'll always be a good student.
I think you understand that, Jim, yourself, right?
What is it?
Honesty in advertising?
You may or may not know that I am an agnostic.
So, you know, I'm skeptical both about the existence of God and about the non-existence of God.
Having been a professional philosopher for 35 years, offering courses in logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning, I recognize That the reason belief in God is an article of faith is because it's not amenable to proof.
Inductively, deductively, abductively, we're talking about a transcendent God outside of space-time, and insofar as scientific reasoning is limited to those things that can be subjected to observation, experiment, and measurement, The existence of a transcendent God lies beyond the scope of science.
Therefore, as I believe every priest, every minister, every rabbi would acknowledge, belief in God is an article of faith.
One believes Either in the absence of evidence or in the presence of evidence to the contrary, except that, as I see it, you cannot have evidence to the contrary or evidence in support for a transcendent being.
Your thoughts, just in general, about what I've just sketched about my own position philosophically.
I'm happy to hear your honesty about that, and I certainly know That kind of attitude is a welcome framework of philosophy to deal with, obviously.
If everyone thought like you, we'd have a better world, I'm sure.
But it can be better, obviously.
I'm a Christian, so I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
And that what God wrote in the Bible is the revelation from the Creator.
But obviously, you're right, it takes a certain amount of faith to really 100% believe that.
But I do believe that there is evidence, empirical evidence, that can point to the fact that there... Well, first off, I mean, without believing the Bible or being a Christian, Obviously, when you look at science, whether it's DNA and the intricacy of the code, the four-digit code that creates the DNA strain, I just suggest to people, and you can take this for what it's worth, Jim, I'm not going to convince you probably in this one conversation to be a believer in God or not, but
I mean what I usually tell people is that just by looking at DNA alone I mean if I was to right now I'm talking to a laptop computer and there's a there's obviously a hard drive in here and there's there's data and code and software that creates that this our ability to interface right now and there's millions and millions of calculations that are taking place just for my hand to be on that screen with the colors that are there so so for me to suggest or for you to suggest that this whole technology that we're using right now the software the data and the organizing of data was just a cosmic accident Perhaps by two rocks that collided and then several other collisions and time and space expanded and then we have a computer in front of us by random chance.
Obviously, people are free to believe that sort of framework if they want to, like having no designer and no engineer behind the universe.
But I think looking at the evidence, it should be pretty clear that just looking at DNA alone, we know that DNA is a four-digit, not a two-digit like ours, it's a four-digit computer code that like a masterful alphabet puts together all the entire biosphere and all of its idiosyncratic features.
So we're obviously to be just As foolish as it might be for me to suggest that this computer was a cosmic accident with no designer, I think it's infinitely more, shall we say, defies reason to suggest that DNA, as one of the many elements, was just a cosmic accident.
Because it is computer code, but infinitely more complex than even the stuff we use.
So I think that as you know a philosopher like yourself that's considering that you know the possibility of whether there's a designer to the universe or not to look at nature and then to say that there is no designer that would of course which of course is an atheist and you're not an atheist I know that but an atheist would
Looking at that data, I could not continue to be an honest atheist, okay?
You'd have to graduate to an agnostic, at least, and say to yourself, okay, when I look at nature, I say to myself, there has to be a god, or a designer, or somebody, an engineer behind it all, but I don't know who he is necessarily, whether he's The Hindu God schematic, or whether he's the Muslim schematic, or whether it's the Christian, or the Roman Catholic, or the Pagan schematic.
But there has to be somebody that designed this universe.
So that's kind of where I start with people that say their agnostics, Jim.
I hope that's food for thought for some of your listeners.
Well, that's all very, very interesting and appropriate to your position.
I believe my suggestion would be that we have here a specious bifurcation between complete random chance or design, whereas there's an intermediate position for which I would advocate to wit.
And all of this is a product of genetic and cultural evolution, on which I published a book entitled The Evolution of Intelligence—Are Humans the Only Animals with Minds?, where I point out that the complexity of the phenomena When we're talking about, say, geological strata, the fossil record, other aspects that come into play here, we find we need a more complicated theory of evolution
And one you might be positing of, as it were, genetic mutation and natural selection.
Indeed, I identify four different mechanisms of genetic diversity.
Not only genetic mutation, but sexual reproduction.
Genetic drift, which is extremely important, and then genetic engineering, and four counterpart methods of selection, natural selection, sexual selection, group selection, and artificial selection.
And depending on the complexity of the phenomena we need to invoke, it turns out all of those, but I would submit Once you can account for those, and where cultural evolution is fascinating and it's divergent from the mechanisms of genetic, because genetic evolution is very slow.
For example, with humans it takes nine months to reproduce another member of the Gene pool but with cultural evolution virtually it can happen or be transmitted at the speed of light through radio waves television and the like so fads and fashions can change virtually overnight but from the point of view of cultural evolutions that's impossible because of the causal processes that have to do with the
Gestation and reproduction.
My submission, therefore, would be that, in fact, we can account for the data and that
positing in addition, therefore, a divine creator is superfluous from the point of view
of a Occamite approach of accounting for the phenomena by the simplest explanation that
can account for all the phenomena, where we sort out, of course, the authentic from the
inauthentic.
This is a procedure we use in scientific reasoning generally so that it would turn out that we
don't need the God hypothesis once we have a sufficiently complex theory of evolution.
But Bill, I'm fascinated to hear everything you have to say.
I think these are wonderful issues for us to be discussing and I'm already very pleased where we are in terms of the intellectual content of our conversation.
That's great.
I enjoy it too.
I mean, you're right in my wheelhouse when you talk that way.
But I don't know your audience as well as you do, but I think that the language and the lexicon that you're deriving your conversation from is, again, that's my wheelhouse.
I'm enjoying every minute of it.
But to keep it simple, if I haven't done that already, is to simply say that this is a cell phone.
Okay that was designed by let's say uh well just for lack of argument Bill Gates or that's an iPhone so that I think that would be uh the other guy I've forgotten his name now Steve Jobs.
So this this phone proves that there is a Steve Jobs.
I just turned it on that's it's even talking.
So this proves that the existence of a Steve Jobs.
Now I don't know what kind of marriage he has.
I don't know how many kids he's got.
I don't know if he's a jerk or a nice guy.
All I know is that there's a guy that's very intelligent Apparently I found out his name is Steve Jobs, and I can derive that from the existence of something that he made that's highly advanced technologically so that it couldn't have just been a set of rocks that collided through time and space and became a phone.
That's the simplest way.
Now I heard your argument, I know what you're saying, and it's fascinating, but that's just the way I posit it for the general viewership that's out there.
Now, obviously, to know more about Steve Jobs, I would have to find another source of information than just looking at the fact that he created something.
I would have to go meet him, perhaps, listen to him speak, and then I can find out if he is a jerk or if he has a family or, you know, the details about him are available, but the fact that he exists is made evident by the complex structures that, obviously, someone like him put together.
So, I believe that, you know, the biosphere, the universe in general, And there is, obviously, Jim, there is some faith involved here, obviously, because you and I were not there when creation took place, so we're only theorizing anyway.
And it's harmless to do so, and pleasant, in fact, and wise to converse the way we are.
But because I believe that, you know, obviously God There's a designer that created everything, then he must have something for me to say and to hear.
Like, for example, if I was walking along the beach and I found a radio, a shortwave radio on the beach, and I was a, let's say I was a, for lack of a better word, a savage.
I'd lived on an island all my life and, you know, just had a small tribe of people.
We were primitive.
There's a radio and somehow I have the presence of mind enough intelligence at least to get that radio and figure out that it's it's some kind of device that that because it has batteries on it it's making noise I can hear voices so it's receiving some kind of through the air it's receiving some kind of signal and so what I would be able to obviously conclude in my primitive state would be to realize that somewhere out there There's a transmission.
If I've got a receiver on my hand, then there must be a transmission somewhere that maybe made the receiver.
And so I'm suggesting to my listeners, at least when I have this conversation, is that we have a mind You talked about the mind of a human being.
Animals have a certain amount of it too, but human beings, for lack of argument, have a mind, for sure, that is designed to receive abstract data information that is obviously abstract, in other words, outside of what's the normal experience.
And so the fact that we have a receiver indicates that there must be a transmission.
I can look at nature, I can look at the biosphere, I can look at DNA if I'm smart enough, and I can see that somebody designed this whole thing.
I want to know more about him, and he wants to communicate to us, and he has a transmission for us.
That's why we have the ability to receive data and abstract ideas, alphabets, lexicons, we're able to absorb that.
So whoever designed everything must have a data source, a data stream, so that we can find out more information about him.
Now I believe, as I'm saying this by faith, The Bible is that data source.
Now, there are other people that say, no, no, it's not the Bible, it's a guru in a cave somewhere, or it's a philosopher, or it's maybe some religion, or it's a set of books, or whatever.
How do you know that the Bible is the actual transmission from the Creator and not the other claimants?
Because obviously, James, if we're talking about finding out what God says about things, then we're going to be accessing data that is very valuable.
We might even be able to access how to solve the problem of death Because obviously if the designer made the universe, then he might know how to solve health issues and death.
So this is going to be an asset worth more than oil, worth more than gold, all the things that we fight and have wars over.
Finding out what God says about how to solve the problems of this world would be a very valuable asset.
So obviously if it's valuable, then there's going to be counterfeits.
Anything that's got value, obviously if I had a five dollar bill here, like that's for let's say a hundred dollar bill that's not but a hundred dollar bill then if it's real then you can guarantee that there's some shyster somewhere that's going to be creating counterfeits and they're going to look similar else that why would he be in business right so obviously we're suggesting that the bible is the real source of god's what god says about things
And that there are obviously dark forces in this universe that want to counterfeit this data source with other options for people to look at that have a certain amount of, you know, nuances and seem believable, but when you study it out you can see that there's problems.
And the verification that this is the data source that's real is a number of things.
First off, fulfilled Bible prophecy.
One-third of the Bible's prophecy from Predicting future events in world history, 100% accuracy.
The other miracle of it, Jim, and this is the content of my book, if you don't mind me making this closing comment, sort of a sales pitch, if you might say, but this book that I wrote actually exposes a phenomenon that's in the Bible.
There's 66 books in the Bible.
One of the books in the Bible is called Isaiah.
It was written 600 years BC, and that's borne out by the archaeology done at the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Isaiah Scrolls are extremely replete in the Dead Sea Scrolls and are completely and thoroughly intact, even though they're a thousand years older than the ones that the King James translators had.
So, the Book of Isaiah has 66 chapters.
The Bible, 66 books.
Isaiah wrote his prophecy when two-thirds of the Bible was not written yet.
It didn't exist on earth yet.
So here's the miracle, Jim, and this one little tidbit will prove that the Bible is by far and away the most miraculous, supernatural document that claims to be God's Word in this world.
And that is that Isaiah, when he wrote his prophecy, each of his 66 chapters bears abundant Apparent and below the surface cross-referencing links to each of the corresponding books of the Bible.
So if you've got the book of Genesis here— Bill, Bill, Bill, yeah.
No, this is good.
This is good.
You've made your point.
So I would respond In three ways.
Number one, you've clearly demonstrated my observation that you're an intelligent, articulate guy.
You obviously know your stuff in terms of your worldview and your ability to present and defend it.
Number two, I have done a great deal of research on the nature of mind, of consciousness, and of cognition.
I've developed a completely causal theory of mind based upon Charles S. Peirce's theory of signs, where what it is to have a mind is to have the ability to use signs, which are things that stand for other things in some respect or other, And I explain and lay out the evolution of mentality through earlier species up to animal mind, primate mind, mountain gorilla for example, up to human mentality, none of which requires positing a divine creator.
But third, some might suggest when you talk about Steve Jobs and creating his iPhone and so forth.
You talked about, you know, wanting to meet Steve Jobs and find out if he's a jerk or not.
One might suggest there's a flaw to the analogy if you're suggesting you want to meet God and discover whether he's a jerk or not.
God does not appear to be accessible to us by virtue of his transcendence.
But look, I know you're very capable of arguing your point of view, which I greatly appreciate.
What I would like is for us to proceed with your presentation vis-a-vis these more contemporary issues regarding unidentified flying objects and the like, which I know you have keenly pursued with very provocative theories ...beliefs about what's really going on here and I welcome your going forward, Bill.
I want to turn it over to you and then I'll raise questions and comments as we proceed.
Well, yeah.
So what we'll do, Jim, then, if you don't mind me suggesting it this way, is we'll jump ahead of the philosophical progression of that conversation and make the assumption that I've convinced you that there is a God and the Bible is his source of information.
Well, I just put it this way, Bill.
You're going to take those as presuppositions.
That's okay with me.
You take them as presuppositions.
It's all right clear that those are presuppositions I do not endorse, but I mean from your point of view, You're entitled to take them as free supposition so you can explain to us how you interpret UFO phenomena and the like.
So I say just go forward, Bill.
Go forward on that basis.
That's what we're doing.
Very good.
So Obviously it has become of keen interest to a lot of people because of the Pentagon release that turned out to be somewhat of a nothing burger last week.
Many of us were anticipating that they were going to try to voice some kind of an alien life, kind of a UFO narrative on the public.
They did not do that.
They left it open as a possibility but So I did make a talk about that, and I did discuss and show people what the Bible says about the UFO phenomenon, and Jim, I do believe that the Bible does talk about UFOs.
It doesn't call them UFOs, obviously, that's a modern term for them, but an aerial phenomenon that has the navigational abilities likened unto what we saw in some of the leaked videos that came out from the Navy off the coast of San Diego, the tic-tac-shaped object, the one that went into the water, and the one that was flying across the water and leaving waves behind, and it was going mock I think it was like two or three, turning on a dime and not rotating.
These were a phenomenon that were a part of the leak that they had no explanation for.
They threw out a couple of theories, hot air balloons, whatever, but they had no explanation for some of the phenomenon that were there.
But the Bible does.
And so if you'll let me, Jim, yeah, we'll go ahead and do that.
Because I believe that there's a God, I think, yeah.
So I believe what you're looking at there, Jim, is a vehicle that in fact God himself made. Now God made a lot of things
obviously. Look at Genesis. He made the whole world with the word of his mouth. But I believe that
UFOs are actual mechanisms that God made using technologies that if we had the drawings we
could actually make them ourselves as well if we knew exactly how he did.
If we could reverse engineer, if we were smart enough, we could also create these crafts that God himself created.
I believe that God put on his Henry Ford hat just temporarily and played human inventor and made a flying vehicle that he used in this world for some very important purposes which we may or may not get to those purposes but let me show you what the bible says about these objects because because the uh
The book of Ezekiel is the first place where we would go.
Ezekiel, the Old Testament prophet, in chapter 1, he refers to these flying objects as wheels in the middle of the wheel.
Now, when you're reading Bible prophecy, if you should do so, you need to understand that when you're reading Bible prophecy, you're looking at somebody, you're reading the writings of somebody that saw an event, eyewitnessed an event, That God showed him in a vision, whether he teleported that person to actually view it in real time, or whether he showed him a video, shall we say, of a future event.
So the prophet sees the event, and then God commissions him, using his current vernacular, and the dictionary available to him, and the words in that dictionary, To describe what he saw.
So Ezekiel, living obviously 500 years BC, is going to describe a flying vehicle that embarrasses the most intelligent engineers of our day.
So this is going to be a tall order for him.
But he does it quite artistically in Ezekiel chapter 1.
If I may, I'll read you some of the highlights.
Verse Ezekiel chapter 1, I'm reading verse 4 really briefly here.
And I looked, and behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, and a great cloud and a fire enfolding itself, much like a mushroom puff, and a brightness was about it.
And out of the midst thereof as the color of an amber, and as the midst of a fire.
And also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures.
The King James uses creatures.
In other words, I'm a creature.
I'm created.
So here, these living persons are coming, are now being manifested.
They had the likeness of a man.
So obviously he's seeing people that look like human beings that are that are going to be in control of these flying vehicles.
Verse six.
And every one of them had four faces.
Every one of them had four wings.
And their feet were straight feet.
And the sole of the feet was like the sole of a cast foot.
And they sparkled like the color of burnished brass.
So he's talking about obviously the pilots are that are going to be flying these things that look like humans and they have got regalia uh that has four faces on the regalia much like we have an eagle with wings on our on our helmets you're in the military or whatever so they got regalia that has four faces and four wings on the regalia that they're wearing and they've got they've also got metallic clothing so obviously you know one could very easily
Imagine that this could be a pilot of an advanced flying vehicle.
Now let's read about the vehicle now.
That's the pilots.
Let's read about the vehicle.
We read about that now in verse 15.
Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold, one wheel upon the earth by those living creatures with his four faces.
The appearance of the wheels, so plural now, and their work was like under the color of a barrel.
Notice it's polished.
And they four had one likeness, and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
So he's saying that this flying object now is like a wheel, but this wheel isn't just a wheel.
He's saying that there's a wheel, if you can see that, and then there's a wheel in the middle of the wheel.
Is that visible?
Sure.
Okay so now so we've got we got a wheel that spins and another wheel spinning inside the wheel.
Let's keep reading and find out how that's possible because obviously there's friction.
How do we deal with the friction of two of a wheel spinning inside of a wheel?
Well let's read about let's read about that.
So we'll see exactly what it says about that.
Okay so we have got we've got um verse 17.
When they went they went upon their four sides.
So obviously four sides would be north South east and west those are the four navigational sides of the of the navigational compass so it's going it's able to go four directions on their four sides and they turned not when they went so in other words it's obviously
It's pointing a certain direction and it's able to navigate four ways without having the vehicle apparently is not turning.
This is exactly what was going on with some of these aerial phenomena that I saw in the video.
It was something moving quickly.
It was able to go four directions very quickly without having to rotate in order to have the afterburner projecting its energy in the direction it was going.
Let's keep reading.
Verse 18.
Bill, if I might interject.
Your north, south, east, west, of course, are suitable for a flat surface.
We also need up and down because this is a three-dimensional space.
I've seen some of those triangular shapes moving around and frankly they look to me like they were being moved by a cursor on a screen.
I found those Examples of what were alleged to be UFO phenomena, highly unconvincing.
I mean, to me, I was not impressed, but I'm open to various interpretations, but to me, Those aspects.
And I'm familiar with some of the evidence that has been released that is alleged to be UFO phenomena.
And of course, we want to make this point a clarification.
There are many unidentified flying objects.
It happens all the time.
The question becomes whether any of them have an extraterrestrial origin.
So, you know, there can be a blip in the sky and it turns out to be a weather balloon, but it was initially an unidentified flying object.
Another turns out to be a small plane that got off course, was flying in an unusual situation and all the like.
So we want to distinguish between unidentified flying objects generally and those of extraterrestrial origin.
Moreover, One could suggest that some of the passages you're describing from Ezekiel and so forth involve imaginative interpretation to achieve applicability to these current phenomena, which is not an objection per se, simply to observe that the degree of imaginative interpretation leaves it open to alternative imaginative interpretations
That may be competitors, and ultimately where we may have to resolve, you know, their differences on the basis of various criteria that apply to scientific theories generally, such as the clarity and precision of the language involved here, the scope of application for explanation and prediction of the phenomena, their degree of empirical support, and then that question of the simplicity, elegance, or economy with which they achieve Those first three desiderata.
So I just want to interject here, you know, because otherwise you're offering so much and in such detail, it might be impossible for me to recapture the points I wanted to make in the beginning.
Please do proceed with those caveats that I'm introducing on my behalf.
I'm completely in favor of those caveats.
And for the benefit of the audience, yeah.
Of course, and stop me anytime if you need to do that, because obviously that's a valid point.
And needless to say, the Bible has been around for many centuries, and obviously good, honest, Bible-believing Christians have interpreted these passages with different scenarios, obviously, because they're groping at, you know, obviously trying to understand something that even Ezekiel didn't understand when he was explaining them.
But I think what happens, Jim, is as the data flow piles in on top of what we're seeing, it becomes evident that we actually are on the right track, finally, because there's so many of the pieces of the puzzle fit, not just two or three, and then we have to guess at the rest.
So Watchman says in verse 18, here's another piece of the puzzle that piles in on top of our model that we are, of course, I admit, we are theorizing.
But here's another piece of the puzzle.
Verse 18 was next.
As for their rings, it says, In other words, these wheels have got rings that are involved.
Watch what it says.
They were so high, they were dreadful.
Now, when an engineer talks about something that's a ring or an object and it's high, it's referring to the kind of steel, high-speed steel.
This is something that's made of high-speed steel that's able to travel at high speed to reduce friction.
I was a machinist as a trade when I was a young child, so I can tell you that Something that's high, you're referring to its hardness and its ability to have no friction.
So now watch what it says.
It refers to the fact that their rings were full of eyes, round about.
So the rings that are making this thing be able to spin, those rings have got eyes in them.
Now, once again, where Ezekiel, and you're looking at a ball bearing, a large ball bearing, That ball bearing is full of eyes.
Now my eye is a ball and it's sitting in a socket and it can roll about freely because the socket suspends the friction.
So what we're seeing then is that we are seeing a ball bearing.
Okay so he in other words he's saying these rings that are like wheels inside the wheels are able to spin because the friction is suspended by ball bearing technology.
And then it goes on and says and when the living creatures wench the The wheels went by them.
So the living creatures have some kind of a, whether it's a telepathic or a virtual joystick, these creatures, it says, when the creatures went, the wheels went by them.
And when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
So we're seeing that there's a technology involved in piloting these wheels that are born by this ball bearing technology, so that they're able to be controlled by Telepathic joystick, shall we say.
But, you know, obviously there's some conjecture there, of course, Jim.
We're reading, like I say, you're very eloquently captured the mental process that we are going through in order to read that.
But that's at least a clue to show us that there's some kind of flying object that's got wheels inside of the wheels that's got rings that are full of eyes that are spinning to make this thing so that in a sense Jim we're suggesting there's gyroscopic technology which as you know suspends a certain amount of of the the second law of thermodynamics so that you're
You know, gravity can be suspended when something's spinning very quickly, as you know.
So what happens then, obviously this is not an engineer drawing, this is not a conclusive, you know, God's not saying, let me show you how I made this.
No, he's telling Ezekiel to describe something that he saw, which is obviously a very difficult task.
We have to then deconstruct what we're seeing, if we can, and then reconstruct what So we're suggesting that the flying saucers, which of course we know the Nazis were toying with as well, and in fact if you know this, if you understand what happened with Admiral Byrd when he went to the South Antarctica, there was allegedly a fairly well-documented invasion of these, of what seemed to be flying discs that attacked his fleet.
So I'm suggesting that if that's all true, then it's possible that these are vehicles that in fact God created for a use in bible era times but i believe also because the bible's i believe the bible's true so we have another series of people in the world called demons satan and his devils and they have got the ability to observe mankind in history
As an outside observer, over the period of millennia, you and I can only learn and watch for 75, 80 years, 3 score and 10, and we're gone.
Our learning curve is finished.
But Satan and his demons are able to learn and watch things happening over millennia, and then obviously deconstruct.
So I think that Satan has seen these vehicles that God has used in the world, and has sort of figured out how they work, And then has like Ra whispering in the ear of Pharaoh.
I believe that Satan, because he has an evil agenda, I believe that he has taken what he knows about these crafts and he has spoken them to evil overlords that are obviously given over to Satanism.
And he's told them about these vehicles, perhaps the Nazis, or whoever else would be willing to give their agenda to Satanics, to Luciferian objectives, then Satan might reveal to them things that he knows, which are reverse engineered from stuff Like this aircraft that God made.
So that kind of explains the overview.
There are more scriptures that I can show you what God used these things for, which I think is really, really important, which obviously touches other topics in Bible prophecy that are happening around us, like the COVID thing, and the earthquakes, and the abundance of tumult that's in the world right now, is explained in connection with what God used these flying discs for, we see in the Bible.
Let me add a few comments.
I'm open-minded about extraterrestrial visitation.
For example, I've seen a Vannevar Bush report about the Roswell incident, and I do believe something happened there, and that the region has been declared off-limits for multiple reasons, and I'm open to the possibility that we had the impact of an alien craft of extraterrestrial origin that occurred there back in, what, 1947 or so.
I've also seen footage of small greys.
These are purported to be alien visitors.
They bear a striking resemblance to the figure in the Steven Spielberg's film E.T.
Very striking similarity.
I'm open to the possibility that that is real footage and not simply some sort of Hollywood-style fakery.
I do not know what happened in terms of Admiral Byrd's visit to the Antarctic, but I certainly have the impression there were very strange and seemingly inexplicable phenomena that took place there.
Now, Let me just observe that for a general point of view, we're talking about alternative hypotheses to explain the data, and when it comes to the data, it would include everything I've just described here, and potentially other phenomena you've been addressing, where we now have alternative hypotheses such as
H1, your favorite hypothesis that these UFOs were created by the hand of God.
A second might be that these UFOs are a hoax being perpetrated on the American people, that they're actually Hollywood-type products, that they don't have bona fide Credentials.
Number three, that there really have been visitations by extraterrestrials to Earth that the government's been very reluctant to release.
Those are at least three basic alternative hypotheses that require consideration, and with the acquisition of new evidence or alternative hypotheses, we may have to Have we arrived at a tentative and fallible conclusion that one of these or the other is correct?
Reject hypotheses we previously accepted, accept hypotheses we previously rejected, and leave others in suspense.
So what I particularly value about our conversation is your articulation of One among a group of alternative hypotheses to explain the phenomena that, of course, are going to include what's been released by the Navy as ostensibly unidentified blind objects to which I return.
That does not mean they're necessarily of extraterrestrial origin.
So if the Navy doesn't know what they are, For them, they're unidentified, but it may be others who do know what they are, for whom they are identified, and it's entirely possible for those who do know what they are that they're not of extraterrestrial origin.
But, I repeat, Given what I know about the data, I am open to the hypothesis, my H3, that these actually are bona fide phenomena, that we actually have had visitations of extraterrestrial origin, and that
There has been what you have referred to as reverse engineering.
I've been told by multiple sources that the U.S.
has possession of anti-gravity craft that were reverse engineered from the flying saucers, shall we call them, that actually impacted with Earth and that there are other forms of very sophisticated technology that were far advanced to As a kind of a global overview, I would suggest that's roughly where we stand.
earthbound technology, even by the most sophisticated of our military scientific industrial projects.
As a kind of a global overview, I would suggest that's roughly where we stand.
I'd like to invite your comments on all of the above, because I think this is a very
productive conversation we're having, where you're a strong proponent of H1.
on. I.
I gravitate toward H3, but I certainly see reason to believe that some of the phenomena that have been offered appear to be fabricated or faked, and therefore, you know, by discerning that they are fabrications or fakes, we gain further insight into the situation we confront here from an intellectual, scientific, and philosophical point of view.
I'm understanding your numerical schematic was the H1 was the possibility of them being an earthbound?
H1 is divine.
H1 is of divine origin.
H2 is sacred.
H3 is bona fide, but you know of extraterrestrial, but Not a divine creation and not fakery.
So I think at the least we have those three where you're a strong proponent of H1 and I'm gravitating toward H3.
But where, you know, I'm convinced some of what we've been presented with has been fabricated or fake.
So just go ahead and address that, Bill.
You're right.
I think there's a blend of all, I think there's a blend of H3 and H1, that's my opinion.
A lot of it's fake, but some of it's real, and of those phenomena that I believe are real, there's two subheadings.
One is directly God's hand involved in the vehicle's operation, and the other subheading, or shall we say H1 A and B, so HB would be that other forces have Have a reverse engineered what God made.
So when we see phenomenon, if I'm an H1, by using a schematic, then that means that I believe that the appearance of these flying objects could either be God himself and God's people, shall we say, In operation or it is also possible that it is a the evil forces of this world having reverse engineered this technology that are also operating.
So I think there's the possibility of both.
Then the third possibility is H3 where you're seeing something's totally fake and I think the triangle object is probably a good could be a good example that although we are theorizing.
So those are the three options.
I'm two subheadings for H1 and I'm a dose of H3.
May I say, by the way, when it comes to, you know, classic arguments, creationist arguments and so forth, that Earth or the solar system or the universe at large did not have to have a beginning in time.
We have the two alternative theories, George Gamow's steady state universe, you know, that the universe has always been roughly the same.
Indefinitely going backward in time and forward in time.
Then we have, of course, the alternative Big Bang theory that there was all matter or energy were compacted and there was the enormous explosion.
We have Stephen Hawking talking about the first, I think, seven seconds, you know, the creation of the universe.
And the fact it appears to be that there's a point at which the expansion of the universe reaches a gravitational limit and you begin a massive contraction and you can have a compaction of all of matter and energy once again.
Which, I point out, could lead to another Big Bang.
In other words, we can have an endless succession of Big Bangs, expansion, contraction, consolidation,
Big Bang expansion, contraction, where we don't know in which of the various expansion
stages, for example, we might be here contemporarily, but where it does not require, therefore,
that there have been a first, because you could have them indefinitely going backwards
and forwards, just as we have the numbers.
It would be zero to one, two, three, and then zero to minus one, minus two, minus three.
So Bill, I'd like for you to just bring forth any further evidence, including any screen
share you want to give us for the big picture of the situation as you see it, without our
necessarily going into all the details and aspects of, for example, the biblical sources
you would cite, because we understand your ability to do that with success.
Can you do the share or did I need to make you host again?
No, I've got it.
I thought you had something pretty interesting there.
Well, this is a graphic that I, that I, is it up?
No, not yet.
Not yet.
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I gotta go screen share.
It's a hostess disabled participants screen share.
Okay.
I'm going to make you a host again.
Not a problem.
Okay.
So go for it.
You can do it now.
All right.
Okay, you might see something now, is that right?
Yeah, there we go, there we go, there we go.
Okay, so this, what I'm going to be doing now, that's actually the wrong screen, I'll give you the right one.
Yeah.
That was the wrong one. Sorry. One second.
Sure, sure.
I noticed it wasn't the same as what you had shown before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's not it either.
Thank you.
Take your time.
Yeah, I know you're offering.
in there. That one? No. Might be the first, I'm not sure.
Go through all three, and we'll find the one that's the right.
Oh, here it is.
Okay, that's the screen I want to share.
Okay, good.
Go for it.
Okay, we're back on.
Okay, so yeah, so Jim, that's a good point.
Like I say, I would consider myself, I really like your schematic, and so H1, A and B, right?
God or devil.
And then H3 is, there are a lot of frauds.
Sure.
And now the reason, obviously, I'm a biblical, you know, a biblicist, I believe the Bible's, you know, the Word of God, and to be interpreted literally, unless the context indicates otherwise.
So just for one quick example, in Genesis 3, verse 20, the Bible says, Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
So there's just one little statement that makes it pretty clear that categorically any
living persons that are on the earth are going to be descended to the earth.
So that tells me that if the Bible is true, that there are no other, shall we say, living
creatures that are able to obviously have a mind and think about abstract ideas like
people do, or animals that are animated.
That's why we call them animals.
So the only ones that are out there that are descendant of Eve.
So humans and human-like beings are all descended from Eve.
So you don't have Lilith.
I know the Talmud talks about Lilith.
You don't have the serpent seed.
The Nephilim giants slash, you know, half people have demons that turn out to be these giants.
That's fantasy.
I don't think that's true.
Those are fables.
The Bible says every person that's in this world, human being, descended from Eve.
Now, that being the case, Then you're right.
There are these phenomena that I think are explainable in scripture called the greys.
Some call them the whites or greys.
We do know that right now they're developing technology called chimeras.
And chimeras are genetically mutated pig slash human and they take the DNA and create a creature, apparently, that be able to harvest organs from whatever else.
So I think that whatever you're seeing in the media is only going to be a fingernail clipping of what they're actually really doing behind the scenes and not telling anybody.
That's usually how they operate and you know these these people that run these uh kind of technologies and the media and government and so on.
So I think that what they're showing us as far as the fingernail clipping of the you know the chimeric pig human that we're getting organs from, I think they probably have developed through a series of generational chimeric operations in a laboratory.
They may well have developed A near-humanoid creature that seems human-ish, but has got other, perhaps, serpentine DNA that's mixed together?
Now, the Bible tells us that God, when people are born out of the woman's womb, God sends a spirit to them so that person becomes a living being.
So, whatever these, if they have such beings, like the greys you talk about, Then I think that they've been created in a lab, but there's no spirit in them.
They're just an object coming out of a lab that has the ability to animate, but is not animated.
But I do believe, the Bible tells us, that Satan and his demons are in the business, one of their main obsessions, is to possess a body that they can function and be apparent and visible in the world and step out of the spirit realm.
And so I think that what's happened is by the permission of God, because God permits, the devils only operate by God's permission, so God has permitted them To indwell these chimeric creatures that they potentially may have developed in a lab so that at the right time they can roll out a narrative.
Which would be your H2 narrative that says that these are people from other planets and here's the vehicles that they fly and see what they'll do.
And that's what the media is always doing.
They're always trying to undermine, you know, traditional Christianity and the morals and the fiber that made our, that made Western countries peaceful.
The Bible's not so.
They're constantly knocking at Christianity and Jesus being real and All kind of crazy stuff they're doing in the media all the time.
So this will be another narrative that they'll say look see there are people on other planets according not in accordance with scripture and here they are and here's their spaceships when in fact really what they are is they are chimeric creatures that have been demon possessed so that they can animate and the the spacecraft are things that they have they have reverse engineered with Satan's assistance from the vehicle that God made.
That's how I would explain any kind of My opinion propaganda that might promote the H2 possibility for explaining this phenomenon.
I believe that it would be a contrivance of man working in partnership with Satan at the highest levels of our evil world that we live in to create a narrative that will cause people to not believe what the Bible says about how the world came to be.
That's why I think, I hope I've answered your question there.
Bill, could you stop the screen share and we'll have a final segment here.
I like what you're doing in terms of your presentation of your view.
Suppose now I were to ask Bill, we know you're very deft in citing the biblical sources to support your position based upon the presumption that the Bible can be taken as an authoritative source on whatever grounds that might be, typically grounds of faith.
For those who may not be disposed to grant that premise, How would you make your pitch for your hypothesis, H1, that the UFO phenomena are actually creations of God?
I notice you have H2, then fakery is by the devil or Satan.
Leaving, of course, H3, that they're bona fide phenomena, but which you want to explain using H1.
H2, in fact, your position is roughly a combination of all three, but where your principal explanatory
desideratum is the role of God here in creating… So, Bill, here's the opportunity for a closing
argument as though you were addressing a jury in a trial.
This, of course, is an intellectual exchange, not a legal one.
But I want to tell you right off the bat how much I've been enjoying our conversation today, which deals with a lot of philosophical, theological, and other issues I don't normally have opportunities to address.
The platform is yours.
I must write back at you.
I'm really refreshed to be able to talk to somebody that's articulate in explaining and quantifying the position of somebody that's an open-minded agnostic.
There's not many around.
Most people are closed-minded and just I'm not able to articulate either, so it's a pleasure to talk to you, Jim, that's for sure.
So yeah, we're talking about the UFO phenomenon, and I think that to make my position really clear, we're suggesting that the flying disc phenomenon has a biblical explanation.
In as much as the flying discs were created by God himself as if he were a human engineer using technologies that if we had the drawings we could duplicate and we could reverse engineer if we had the ability of explanation on how to.
So that's what he did.
Ezekiel chapter 1 tells us that.
So that phenomenon that's happening in the world today can be explained thusly.
Either it is A. God is flying those vehicles in the world today and doing His business with those vehicles in the world today, or B. Satan, who has the ability with his demons to observe the biosphere over millennia, and then obviously reverse engineer things, He has had the ability to reverse engineer what God made and has whispered into the ear, like Ra, into the ear of Pharaoh on how those vehicles might work with garbled information, obviously, so that the Nazis and whoever else has fumbled with some
While groping, with some information, has been able to somehow create vehicles that are like the one God had, with probably some deficiencies involved as well.
So there's God doing it, there's, with the assistance of Satan, man doing it, and furthermore, as far as the Greys are concerned, Chimeric technology with DNA obviously rewriting.
I believe that they've been able to create a a being that could look like it came from another planet that is a mixture of human perhaps some serpentine DNA that has been indwelled by a demon So that it can animate and behave like a person, yet, but the Bible says that there are no people that are naturally occurring on this earth but what descended from Eve.
That's Genesis 3 verse 20.
So this is my explanation for whatever propaganda they might try to foist into the public, whether it's through Hollywood or through the news media or through holographic or from blue beam technology, I believe the Bible, and because I believe the Bible, that such phenomenon are explained either by God doing it, or man doing it with the assistance of demonic assistance.
So this is what I believe about the UFO phenomenon as far as what the Bible says about it, and what God is doing in this world today.
We believe that we're in a very tumultuous time right now, Jim, where God, the second coming of Christ is at hand, and that's why you're seeing an abundance of this, these craft, because they are up to something, which we could perhaps discuss in another conversation.
Well, this has all been excellent, Bill.
I'm very pleased.
I mean, at the very least, it expands the range of alternative interpretations of what we're encountering here with regard to unidentified flying objects, the question of whether they're of extraterrestrial origin, Whether there might be transcendent forces at work.
You're offering interpretations of H1 that these are the products of God.
H2 that fakery or deception is the work of the devil.
H3 that man may have reversed engineered God's work to produce variations of a human type, including anti-gravity craft and all that.
Bill, I've really enjoyed this immensely, and of course it's open to everyone to sort these things out for themselves.
I think it's very clear where you and I respectively stake our position, but I believe you've argued your position with great clarity, force, and verb, so I have particularly enjoyed featuring you today here on The Real Deal.
You're welcome with a final thought of your own, my friend.
The final thought I'd like to share with you is obviously, you know, the gospel of Jesus Christ is what the Bible's main point is.
And Jim, if you might let me articulate it in 30 seconds, and that is the message of salvation.
Man is a fallen creature.
We have an evil tendency.
We're capable of good, but we're also very evil.
And because of that, we are under the condemnation of the judge of this universe.
And in order to have that condemnation lifted, you have to have a sacrifice, and that sacrifice is the Lord Jesus Christ, who came to this world as the Son of God, died on the cross, shed His blood, rose again on Easter, and He did that to pay for our sin debt.
To satisfy the justice of God's legal system so that He could let us into His holy presence after this world is finished without soiling heaven.
And so by taking the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as your only valid fare of entrance to heaven, and by believing that and trusting Him as your personal Savior, then immediately God gives you a legal standing before Him that's righteous.
For God so loved the world, right, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him Not your works, not your religion.
Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And that is the most important thought I could share with your readers and listeners, Jim.
And that is that salvation is available through Jesus Christ, and you avail it by calling upon him and telling that you believe it.
So you could pray a prayer, one sentence prayer like this.
You could say, Dear Jesus, I know I'm a sinner.
I don't deserve heaven.
I believe that you died on the cross, paid for my sins, so right now, Jesus, I'm calling on you, I'm asking you to save me, I'm trusting you, and I'm believing you as my only valid fare or sacrifice to enter God's heaven.
If you tell Jesus that in a prayer from your heart and mean it according to the Bible, you will become saved, justified, and you will have been given the legal access to enter heaven for free.
That's the gospel, Jim, and thanks for letting me preach the gospel on an agnostic program.
I snuck it in, didn't I?
Well, my guest today has been Pastor Bill McGregor of Trinity Baptist Church in Toronto, Canada.
At the very least, Bill has exemplified how the traditional Gospels can be interpreted to explain or cope with even modern phenomena such as UFOs and potentially extraterrestrial visitations.
I'm very grateful to him for the opportunity for this exchange, which I've enjoyed immensely.
I hope all of you do as well.
This is Jim Fetzer, your host on The Real Deal.
Thank you all for being here, and Bill McGregor especially, for being such an interesting, even extraordinary guest on this show.
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