June 16, 2020 - Jim Fetzer
10:17
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| This is Jim Fetzer on Jim Fetzer News with my special guest Judith Barry Baker. | |
| We're talking about a controversy that has arisen over what I took to be a misinterpretation of a word on a tape recording of a conversation Judith had at one point in time with David Lifton. | |
| Lifton has now put up a post on an internet forum in which he claims that Judith has been inconsistent about where she was supposed to meet with Lee Oswald at a certain point in time when they were planning to marry. | |
| Judith, I want to read for you the four different examples or quotes he gives and discuss with you whether they are or are not inconsistent, okay? | |
| Okay, the first example one, Judith Vary Baker, Internet Forum Post, October 9, 2004, quote, "The Cancun matter was an assertion by my literary agent "that was missed by Dr. Platzman. | |
| "He took the blame for allowing it to remain in the manuscript, "but it was my fault, too. | |
| "Lee and Dean said that we would meet in a fine hotel, "but his voice was so full of irony, "I didn't know if he was joking. | |
| He never said we would meet in Cancun. | |
| Typos and errors will happen. | |
| That we would meet in an area near present-day Cancun is always what was meant, and if I type Cancun instead, God forgive me." End quote. | |
| Can I ask you each one? | |
| I would like to make an explanation between them. | |
| So I'd like to talk about this one right away. | |
| Of course, yeah. | |
| Peter Cox was my agent. | |
| He lived in London and he flew over to New York and I met him there. | |
| And at that time we met at a public library and he asked me to show me a globe where Lee and I planned to meet. | |
| Now this was the first time that Lee and I planned to meet. | |
| There were two different plans. | |
| One was when we went to Mexico City. | |
| We thought we'd be able to meet because Lee had been promised he'd be able to stay in Mexico City after handing off the bioweapon. | |
| But Ochsner had been angry at both me and Lee and he didn't want us to be together. | |
| So he had Lee ordered back to Dallas. | |
| Or he had someone order him back, of course. | |
| I mean, I don't mean that he did it himself directly, but he made sure that we wouldn't have our plans go through, that we could meet and live together and marry and everything else. | |
| We do know that there's a record that the FBI had that when Lee returned from Mexico City, nevertheless, he stopped at the border, went to some towns, and inquired about quickie divorces. | |
| Okay? | |
| That's been pretty well hidden, but it's in the Warren Commission records. | |
| Now, so, we have Peter Cox telling me, well, where is it? | |
| I point on the globe, put my finger down at the Yucatan, and he says, oh, that's Cancun. | |
| I said, well, actually, back then, it's the middle of nowhere, it was all jungle, and the Chichen Itza was very popular in the news in 1963, and they also mentioned a small village called Cancun. | |
| And Cancun, it was a village back then, that's what I told Cox. | |
| But he put in the book Cancun without mentioning it was a village, and it's my fault for not correcting it, I suppose. | |
| I didn't have any... But this didn't originate with Lee anyway, and the area you specifically, he was mentioning to you to go, it was a general area, but how did he designate it? | |
| Well, he designated it, it was basically the Yucatan, and there was a beach there, Where CIA would land planes. | |
| It was a sandy beach that acted like an airstrip would. | |
| Smugglers used it in this kind of thing. | |
| But what's interesting is that Lee wanted to go there, and I wanted to go there, because of George Demore and Schilt. | |
| Now, I have the records from Willem Oltman's friend. | |
| I have George on tape, okay, and reading from his book, and so we know everything he's saying there is completely accurate, whereas online there are some differences that Dave Reitz has introduced into the book. | |
| In other words, he's taken a few things out from the tapes. | |
| So I have the regular tapes, but it's in both places that George DeMornschild and his wife, Jean, made a long trek after George's son died of, I think, cystic fibrosis. | |
| And he was very devastated. | |
| They took this long trek, wore out 22 pairs of shoes, a piece or something like that. | |
| And Lee said, I wanted to do the same thing. | |
| He said, but my wife is Marina. | |
| You know, she's not an outdoor girl. | |
| She doesn't care about any of that. | |
| But, you know, Lee and I had fallen in love, and when he said, would you like to do something like that? | |
| I said, you bet! | |
| And I love to fish, and I just love to see Chichen Itza. | |
| He said, well, go and see Chichen Itza, because, you know, I have a degree in anthropology. | |
| Archaeology is one of my favorite subjects. | |
| Lee loved the whole idea, and George Des Moines said Lee wanted more than anything to do the same thing. | |
| So we had decided After he completed his mission, he would try to see if he could become an informant for the CIA. | |
| He said that's what George did, and his wife, when they were going through these places, they collected information. | |
| We would do the same, and little by little, we hoped to get out of CIA involvement altogether. | |
| Judith, if Lee used any geographical index at all, it would have been Chichen Itza? | |
| Chichen Itza. | |
| Yeah, I mean, he would have said that when you pointed to the globe. | |
| And the village of Cancun. | |
| In fact, that whole area of Cancun means basket of snakes. | |
| And they just used that when they built the resort city. | |
| We weren't planning to go to any resort city. | |
| Now, Lee did mention Merida. | |
| I thought that maybe that's where we would get married, but I wasn't sure. | |
| And besides, this was just our first plan. | |
| When Lee was ordered back to Dallas, we changed our plans and we didn't Have that same plan. | |
| We did still hope to meet in Mexico somewhere, and we thought we'd have to go and we might make it to Merida. | |
| We wanted to get married, but then we'd probably be flying to the Cayman Islands or even to the Virgin Islands and stay for a year. | |
| Okay, Judith, here's a second quote from Shackelford on September 27, 2004. | |
| Quote, it has nothing at all to do with the resort being there in 1963. | |
| They weren't planning on going to a resort. | |
| They were planning to go to the Yucatan and look at the ruins. | |
| So that's a basically accurate statement by him. | |
| Here's example three, Judith News Group Post, July 5th, 2004, quote, The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet. | |
| We were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believe from a book we read together, was in Quintana Roo. | |
| We were going to go to a fine hotel, maybe that was a joke of Lee's, and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us, end quote. | |
| Well, there's no inconsistency there. | |
| It's just like I said, you know, we plan to meet there. | |
| We plan to find a priest to marry us. | |
| It would be kind of a corrupt priest, because usually they had to have bans. | |
| That is, they announce it, you know, a couple weeks in advance before marriage, and we want it right away. | |
| So we plan to get a quick divorce somewhere in Mexico, which was very common at the border. | |
| Then we were going to go and get married by a priest that we could bribe to get marry us right away, you know. | |
| And we thought, Lee mentioned Merida, but I was never sure whether we would end up there or not. | |
| All those plans were inflexible and to try and put this down is, you know, set in stone. | |
| Our second set of plans were that we were going to hide for a year in the Cayman Islands and to let everything calm down because the assassination problems, you know, we didn't want to get involved in all that. | |
| We hopefully would have got out alive. | |
| Now the fourth quote, Judith, is from you on the internet, October 9, 2004. | |
| Quote, Lee never mentioned the name of this city as a meeting place. | |
| He sped of Merida in other contexts. | |
| I decided this must have been the city in the Yucatan where we hoped to marry. | |
| On my own, as he mentioned, we would be flying from the city where we would marry on the Cayman Islands. | |
| When later I learned that flights from Merida to the Cayman Islands were known to occur, I then assumed the city was Merida. | |
| Yeah, Merida, Merida, Merida, Merida. | |
| Yeah, my mispronunciation. | |
| Well, he said there was a CIA presence there, and he had hoped, as Gene and George DeMarshall did, that we could get a little income by being FBI informants. | |
| And so that's what we planned. | |
| And we just wanted to explore. | |
| We wanted to get out of all that stuff, you see. | |
| We were in love. | |
| So, you know, we were young. | |
| And I, from the time I was four years old, I've been fishing, I've been swimming, I was very athletic. | |
| Lee started exercising. | |
| It's in Marina and Lee. | |
| And he was starting exercising because he wanted to be strong. | |
| So he could climb up those pyramids. | |
| And it was all in ruins at that time. | |
| It wasn't a tourist attraction. | |
| You know, we had no intention of going to any resort city or anything like that. | |
| In fact, I gave him a hunting knife. | |
| A black and gold hunting knife to use and that's in his possessions. | |
| That hunting knife, Mary Farrell looked it up because we talked about it. | |
| She said it had been issued in August of 1963 and I bought it for him. | |
| It was new in the box, you know, but from a garage sale. | |
| Apparently somebody had just bought it and they didn't like it or something. | |
| I bought it and I gave it to him. | |
| It was my last gift to him before we parted. | |
| Well, Judith, based on our conversation, I don't see that there's a great inconsistency here, that there's different emphasis because you're in different contexts, but I think the claim that there's a fundamental inconsistency in your account here regarding this Cancun, Cancun business is frankly a gross exaggeration by your critics. | |
| Well, if you just look at the quotes and see what I've said, and I've told you how it was, you really have, what are you trying, as they say, you're trying to Take out pieces of fly poop from a pudding. | |
| Judith Barry Baker, I want to thank you for addressing this issue. | |
| Jim Fetzer from James Fetzer News. |
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