Cynthia Chung traces elite control—from Babylonian mystery cults (Apollo, Marduk, Horus) to modern "Brotherhoods" like Freemasonry and the Mafia—through shared occult practices, including ritual sacrifice and adrenochrome trafficking. She links Jesuit flags, Tavistock’s psychological engineering (Operation Phoenix, MK Ultra), and corporate infiltration (Unilever, Johnson & Johnson) to systemic manipulation, dismissing global warming as a fabricated narrative. While questioning genuine mysticism in Christianity, she argues institutions like Esalen and the Vatican have been corrupted by trauma-based conditioning, yet humanity resists through movements like Greece’s economic pushback or Canada’s trucker protests. Her research, Through Glass Darkly, urges exposure of these patterns while promoting gold/silver investments over "made-up history." [Automatically generated summary]
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Welcome at last to the Delling Pod, Cynthia Chung.
Mum's Ballet Dreams00:04:34
I've been trying to get you for quite a while and finally I've got you.
And the first thing I want to ask you is, you work with Matt Erett, don't you?
I mean you write pieces together and how do you guys you're so prolific.
You do these deep dives into all sorts of subjects like Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, the Knights Templar and so on.
And you do these long involved deep dives.
How do you have the time?
I mean, for me, I feel like I'm pretty blessed to be able to afford to work at home with, for now anyway, the the substack situation.
But um, for me it's it's actually kind of slow going and and I don't feel like my output could be as as large as as it could be right.
But um definitely, I think, being married to, to Matt Errett um, we have a lot of fruitful discussions and it it's very, you know, it really helps with the creative uh flow um, by being able to bounce ideas off of another person on a regular basis.
For sure, that's funny.
Cynthia, I had no idea you were actually married.
You don't make it clear.
It's not like my, my husband, Matt.
I thought you were just kind of collaborative partners.
Um, so do you are you?
Are you Canadian?
Yeah yeah, I was born in Canada.
My, my mom was born in Hong Kong, but my dad is a French Canadian right now.
I wanted to ask you that.
I mean, is your mum a tiger mum?
Uh, you mean like personality wise?
No, I don't mean that.
I mean one of those mums that that that the Chinese children are famous for having, where you kind of get up at sort of five for your first ballet class and then you go and learn how to fly a helicopter and then you go and breed koi or something, or you know, and then you then you have, then you have, advanced maths, did you?
Did you have one of those children?
Well, I mean, it is typical that I was put into extracurricular math, Kuman math, which is uh popular in Canada, I don't know about uh in the Uk.
I did learn yeah well, I didn't.
I, I didn't mind it.
I think that it's, it's not bad I.
I never had anything so strict um as, like maybe some other.
The competition is very high, especially if you live in South Korea or China.
Um, they're very competitive with their exam systems.
But yeah, I did learn how to play the classical piano as well.
And uh, I did go into ballet and and gymnastics when I was young, but I didn't.
I think it was also typical.
It's mostly white, white girls in in my class uh, for gymnastics and and ballet.
But you know it's, it's good because you're you're feeling things out too when you're young, of like what, what are you interested in?
You know, I also played soccer um, and and various other sports, so it was just good to have a lot of these kinds of activities.
Um, I think I got a bit more of it as the the firstborn child of my family, so I was pretty lucky.
I do envy you, even if it were forced that you, you you've now, you're now in adulthood and you've got this skill of being able to play the piano really well, which must be great.
Yeah, and I, I want to eventually learn how to play the cello um, because I think the stringed instruments are the most beautiful.
But um yeah, though there's a appreciation for for music on um, I guess, another level, when you can, when you can play the instrument uh, for sure yeah yeah um, and obviously then you're gonna have eventually have an orchestra in your, in your home.
Origins Of The Mafia Cult00:12:07
You're gonna teach Matt to play.
What's he gonna do?
Play the timpani or something.
Maybe he'll be lead violin.
I don't know.
He'll be the creative dancer.
The improv dancer.
By the way, when you see Matt, which will probably be quite soon, tell him I haven't forgotten that he's going to do a podcast with me on how the Khazarians were actually goodies.
Because that's going to be quite popular, I think.
That's quite a tasty line to take with my audience, who presumably a lot of them will think that the Khazarian Mafia are the reason that the world is as it is.
Can I ask you a big question?
Because you've looked into Freemasonry.
You wrote an essay, which I didn't finish.
A very involved essay on the connections between the Scottish Rite Freemasons and the Mafia and this organization in 15th century Seville, I think.
I mean, this is all just like meat and drink to me, but does it get you anywhere?
What I mean is, can you, have you worked out yet who it is that runs the world and what their evil master plan is?
Or do you think it's lots of different groups with different agendas?
Where are you on this?
And I mean, for the audience to be aware, that wasn't one article.
That was a series.
So, like, you actually talked about a lot already in what you just did in that summary.
And yeah, people can read that on my sub stack through Glass Darkly by Cynthia Chung.
But I think that it does, there is definitely, I think, a Babylonian origin and Egyptian origin.
And not to say that everything in Egypt was bad.
I think that, you know, in the ancient times, it was very common for there to be the mystery schools, what we would maybe call today secret societies.
And it was common to have cults, right?
Like it wasn't just like how they use the term cult isn't how we think of a cult today, where, you know, you dress all the same, maybe, and, you know, you drink the Kool-Aid sort of thing, right?
But it was common back then to have like the cult of Apollo or the cult of Marduk in Babylon, the cult of Horus in Egypt, which I've really found that there is a connection, especially between those three nodes in Athens, ancient Athens, ancient Babylon, and ancient Egypt that seemed to have been on a certain level corresponding with each other.
So these cults, which were temples, they had oftentimes priestesses.
I know that the cult of Apollo definitely had the priestesses.
I'm not so familiar with exactly how the cult of Horus was set up.
The cult of Marduk, for instance, when Cyrus the Great went into Babylon and took it over, and this was going to be the beginning of the Persian Empire.
The story goes that the gates were opened to him in Babylon by the Marduk priesthood and that the king and his court and all of this, they were slaughtered by Cyrus the Great.
The Jewish captives were freed, but the Marduk priesthood were allowed to continue without any kind of interference.
They didn't miss a beat basically in their day-to-day organization.
So that's very telling.
And I think that, you know, when we're looking at the Roman emperors as well, they're like when Octavius became the emperor of the Roman Empire, there seems to have also been certain dealings that he had with like certain civil cults.
So it seems that there was, I'm not saying that every great leader or very prominent leader had to be like totally bought, but there seems to have been a situation where any great leader would have to have a certain working relationship with powerful cult centers.
And again, not that they were all terrible and bad, but I would say the Marduk priesthood was looks pretty bad to me.
Is that right?
Sorry.
They look bad to you.
Presumably, this is because they practiced human sacrifice.
I mean, everything that is coming out of the Babylonian culture, I mean, yes, human sacrifice.
Although human sacrifice was also like it was happening elsewhere as well.
It was, I think, pretty common for a while.
I think that that was one of the interventions of Jesus, right?
Was to kind of intervene on, not to say that there wasn't prohibitions in the Old Testament, but there was really, I think, a shift at that point of the sacrifices need to stop altogether, even animal sacrifices.
But I think that everything that has come out of the Babylonian culture, you know, I've heard about the debt forgiveness and all of that, but in terms of the cultural aspects, the religious practices and so forth, it just doesn't seem very good ultimately.
And, you know, I have to do more work into how the Jewish captives even, right, were influenced with the being captives in Babylon for as long as they were and how much did that possibly shift and have a reinterpretation of their history and their identity in things.
It's very complicated.
But that is like for me, the origin.
And that's why Freemasonry, there is a lot of clear emphasis on the Egyptian rites.
I still have to do more work on this, but definitely, you know, Garibaldi, you know, Napoleon Mazzini, Aleister Crowley, they're all very much involved in like the Memphis Misraim Egyptian rites, which I don't, I still don't know enough to talk about.
And I had to stop that series at a certain point and actually start this Rosicrucian series, which is starting to give me a better handle on how to eventually complete the Mafia Brotherhood series.
But yeah, it's a lot to chew on.
And because you threw out the mafia in there, I'll say for people who want a little bit of a teaser that it looks like the origins of the Mafia Brotherhood started with some of the Catholic militant groupings that have, it seems, all of their origins come from the Benedictine order.
So like the Templars, the Knights of Malta, the Cistercians, and so forth, all have their origins with the Benedictine order.
And the Mafia Brotherhood seems to have had its origins within that construct.
Spain as well had militant orders that were, again, had their source with the Benedictines.
Well, that's interesting in itself, isn't it?
Because Benedictine monks, are they normally associated with being baddies?
I, you know, I'm coming at a lot of this research without previous, I guess you could say, baggage in a sense.
Like, I didn't have solid, you know, opinions or, or I guess you could say, prejudices.
I'm kind of like following threads.
And because I feel that my generation, especially, that was when classical education kind of really stopped.
And I feel that I'm constantly going into a subject with a great deal of ignorance.
But, you know, Nicholas of Cusa has the term learned ignorance.
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
But from what I've looked at from my research, the Benedictines, which seems to be the oldest order, has very bad, yes, origins to it.
And again, I can't say too much from it right now, other than, like, for instance, Matt's Revenge of the Mystery Cult book series, he talks about the Apollo connection with Saint Benedict and his sister Scholastica.
It's very odd that they were buried together in an urn, which was like they were very close to each other.
I don't even know if they were twins, but they were very close.
And they died very close to each other as well.
And they were buried together in an urn that was actually a church that had been built on top of an Apollo temple site.
And I find that not to be a coincidence.
And also, a very big indication that the Benedicts were not the best was, I don't know if you're familiar, you probably are with like Tiberius's Capri escapades and the fact that there was a lot of human sacrifice going on there as well.
Tiberius was one of the like the second or the third Roman emperor.
I'm not fully remembering the order, but he was there still at the very beginning of the Roman Empire.
And he eventually started to just vacation most of the time in Capri, which became a huge cult center, if not already.
And this center was given to the Benedicts later on.
I forgot the name of the person who gave that.
So there's all of these very disturbing connections with these groupings that are playing off of each other into certain, I guess you could say, forms of psyops that you can see that there's a lot of continuation in the world that we live in today, even though it's not exactly the same.
And I think that there is a clear attempt to kind of re-usher in that old age of mystery cults.
And I think that with our kind of zeitgeist being ever more connected to social media type things, but also things like Netflix or Prime Video or whatever you're watching, like Netflix is international now.
So, there are every country has like a certain kind of formula that kind of has a tinge of their culture with their language and their quirks.
Formulaic Horror Nudges00:14:46
But there's this like repeated formula that's now being done throughout the world on certain kind of key formulaic experiences that they want people to go through via Netflix, which is kind of homogenizing people in some ways towards and nudging them in certain directions.
And I feel that this is very much akin to how things were done in the olden days in terms of like the mystery cult ways of controlling how the masses are viewing the reality that they're living in.
I don't know if that sounded crazy.
That sounded really well, like everything you said, really, really, really interesting.
You are a fund of information.
Tell me about the things that you're seeing on Netflix, the sort of the patterns which are being repeated across in the different languages.
How are they trying to condition us?
I mean, the obvious one for me is that the number of lesbian relationships in Netflix is off the scale.
And there was also a kind of crime drama thing where the police, I'm going to call it a police thing because I couldn't work out whether it was a man or a woman, was transgender.
Is that the sort of thing?
Were you thinking of other stuff?
Oh, that's part of it, definitely.
And I do think that it's getting a little bit weird, you know, when people of the more, I guess, liberal woke perspective, how they're viewing themselves as becoming emancipated, empowered, politically active, is all revolving around sexuality.
And like sexuality is the most, and like having sex is just like the most important thing in the world.
And I find it very disappointing and like honestly, just like the lowest, you know, level of being.
There's this show, Industry, and it's about like, you know, people in the finance market in the UK.
And it has like a 7.5 IMDB rating.
And so I'm like, I'll look at it just to see like, how are they talking about the finance situation in the UK and like these young people who are getting in the field?
And it was like so crazy centralized around sex like and like really crazy, you know, types of things.
You know, SM is becoming like really normal now, but there wasn't any actual intellectual or like there wasn't any intelligence around actually talking about the finances.
And I feel that, you know, when you when you make sexuality the most important thing, to me, that's like you're kind of accepting being controlled by pleasure queen stimulus, which is basically akin to being treated like, you know, an animal.
And, you know, Harari, for instance, was famous for his speech at the World Economic Forum, where he was saying, you know, they're going to be able to have these algorithms on the internet, right?
So like if you are watching whatever, a podcast or a movie, it's going to be able to measure your heart.
It's going to be able to measure how your eyes are moving and maybe like how much you're sweating or whatever.
And so it's going to know your thoughts on things.
And I found that to be like the most basically, he was talking about a somewhat more, you know, fancy polygraph, which are, by the way, notorious for not being reliable.
But he was talking about things as if you were like an animal.
Like, how could you possibly know like how someone is thinking about things on a higher philosophical plane by just how their eyes are moving and how fast you're basically just measuring, you know, excitement, anger, you know, very basic emotions.
And it's clear that Harari identifies at that lower level.
And I think that that's how I view these kinds of shows that are focused on that.
It's to train you to think at the lower level.
It's like game theory, too, right?
It trains you to accept limited parameters in an artificial scenario so that you think that you have to react with this pleasure punishment incentive in order to get ahead, which makes you actually more easily controlled.
So that is how I view that whole construct.
And I mean, I could care less, honestly, about someone's sexuality.
And I don't even want to have arguments over that.
I'm just, I'm of the viewpoint, it's not something to celebrate or, you know, think that you somehow accomplished something by being like whatever on the sexuality scale.
But there are other things on Netflix that are very like oriented towards popularizing witchcraft, like satanic rituals, horror films that are getting into like sort of initiation programs.
I was listening to someone who has, even though they're a believer in a lot of this like occult mystical stuff that they were talking about, they were useful because they talk about it somewhat from an academic standpoint, bringing up books and all that.
But they had a watch party on this movie called Hereditary, which was done not that long ago.
You know, one of these, I think, A24 films.
And A24 is just taking over on this higher level occult social engineering stuff.
But they were talking about this film and they acknowledged themselves.
And some of these people are practitioners of like black magic.
So they're either Thelemites or Golden Dawn, you know, priests.
But they're like very normal, nerdy people, which is interesting.
But they were saying themselves that they were shocked at how many people after watching Hereditary, which was about a specific demon called Paymon, went onto social media platforms looking up how to be Able to become a practitioner of magic so that you could conjure demonic spirits.
Yeah, that would figure.
So, was this this film was a drama?
Was it?
Yeah, I didn't watch it.
I did like a quick kind of overview because I refuse to like sit through a whole movie like this because it's these things also like they.
No one, I think, is immune to being influenced a little bit, even on your subconscious when you, when you're constantly watching these things.
So I only look at summaries now when it looks like something that is pretty influential in a negative way for social engineering.
And it basically is a movie that is talking about this Paymon devil that somehow you know if there's a satanic cult and it's being passed down through a bloodline, but there are three sacrifices within this family of the elder woman the, the mother and then her child, and but it's to ultimately unleash this Paymon demon.
He's one of the four kings of hell according to the, the John D. Aleister Crowley demonology lore right and I mean it goes before John D, but the end is to unleash the Antichrist, like Paymon is sort of like an Antichrist kind of character.
I guess that is also supposed to be able to talk to, like to, I guess, unleash all the other demons.
You know, it's like a kind of rift in hell sort of concept and it was very interesting to listen to these people talk who believe that they can, they can conjure spirits, and they say oh, Paymon isn't really like this when I talk to him um, but that what was very interesting is that they would have preferred, they said, if the movie had just stayed psychological and that you didn't know whether everything was happening in the main character's head or not,
and that the Satanic cult wasn't really real and they also don't like that.
These occult groups are always uh, portrayed as Satanic, which is also funny but um, they would have preferred it to stay psychological.
But the last scene really shows that it was real.
And the director also later said in interviews, no, this was all real and they didn't like that.
And uh, especially the, the Golden Dawn priest guy his, his name is Aaron Leech, who was in this like watch party on uh, the youtube page, Esoterica is uh, where I was watching this and he said I would have preferred uh, if that last scene just wasn't there.
And for me the movie is uh, you know, ends before that last scene, because I reject that last scene and it was so bizarre that these people didn't realize, like they think, that Alistair Crowley, for instance, isn't an a Satanic person.
They themselves rejected that ending, that it was about an antichrist.
You know storyline, so that was a Huge tangent about Netflix.
There's other things about Netflix too that I could talk about.
The movie Nasferatu was also like, holy crap.
That is, I'll just say something really quick on that.
That is about necrophilia on, and that was like a mainstream-ish movie, right?
Nosferatu with Johnny Depp's daughter, Rose Depp, or something like that.
And super disturbing.
She was, there's Willem Defoe even makes a reference to her being a priestess of Isis in this Nosferatu movie.
And if people are not aware, the Frankfurt School Adorno, Theodore Adorno from the Frankfurt School, had said that necrophilia was going to be the last stage of like, you know, what they wanted to bring about.
As the last, I forgot now, it's actually in that article that you said that you were also interested in talking about the false flag paper on William Sargent and MK Ultra and all that.
I can find it very quickly because I have it already open.
So he wrote, yeah, that there are to achieve maximum suggestibility.
Theodore Adorno wrote in the philosophy of modern music that it would come in four steps to achieve maximum suggestibility.
The first one was depersonalization, the loss of connection to one's own body.
Two, hepphrenia, which he defined as the indifference of the sick individual towards the external.
Three, catatonia, which he wrote as a similar behavior is familiar in patients who have been overwhelmed by shock.
And four, necrophilia, to which Adorno wrote, universal necrophilia is the last perversity of style.
And yeah, I felt that Nosferatu was definitely for that.
And this guy is the one who did like the Northmen, which is another thing with the whole Viking stuff being brought in to also get into this sort of weirdness.
Willem Defoe is like in all of this guys, all of these guys' movies, Robert Egerton, I think his name is.
Anyway, that was a long rant.
Sorry.
No, no, this is all interesting.
I hadn't thought.
I think I saw the Northman thing.
Is that the one film in Iceland where they're always beating hell out of each other?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was like a very stylized film, and there wasn't like too much like with Nicole Kimmen, right?
Like there wasn't anything like too overtly weird in that.
But if you look at, I think his name is Robert Egerton, something very similar to that.
He's clearly a Satanist on a high level.
And Willem Defoe is like in all of his movies and with the Northmen, the thing that I guess is of particular interest to me is the initiation process for the kid.
First of all, this idea of like, what is shamanism?
Bjork, you know, is the shaman in the movie.
And this return to the end scene, you know, where they're fighting with the fire all around and everything.
I think that part of that is again to have us return.
And there's like a scene too, right, where the guy's wearing like a deer head or whatever with the fire.
I loved it.
It's to get us right.
You went hunting yesterday.
But I was hunting foxes.
That's different.
Ah.
Okay.
But yeah, that's, it's to have us return to a very, I think, primitive, you know, way of being, which I think, again, just ties us to raw emotion.
And I think that basically it's a chaos factor.
And they want that chaos factor.
They want to get us out of what we've been taught the last few decades in terms of, under the Kennedy era.
We thought we were civilized people.
We thought that we had progress and we were going to just have a more positive future always.
Advancements for Humanity?00:03:45
Advancements were going to be for the benefit of humankind.
And now, increasingly, I would say the majority of people don't believe in that.
And partially because these advancements, the scientific achievements have been largely now controlled by the gatekeepers of the military-industrial complex, right?
So anyone who does make a very large discovery within universities is the funding, the grants are already very difficult for you to get as a researcher.
But then, so oftentimes, it's the military-industrial complex that offers you funding, but you have to kind of sign away your control over the project and they can ice you out or they can, you know, they can do whatever they want with the project.
They could, they can kill the project.
So, you know, I think that this idea of like the not believing in the ability to achieve, you know, positive developments, there's like this huge wave, I think, of people wanting to return to, you know, a more natural way of living, but like from the standpoint of like living in the woods, you know, living in caves, living on a really basic level.
And I think that that is again to try to get people to be more easily controlled, you know, these ideas of living in communes and stuff.
It's going to be easier, I think, to control these kinds of situations.
They've been encouraging communes since like the 1800s.
And if you look at the people who started, you know, the communes and the kind of weird stuff, like there's a lot of historical documentation on the weird things that were happening in the communes.
They were human experiment, you know, societal experimentations.
Ascona is probably one of the more popular ones, but that was more for like, you know, bourgeoisie, you know, more rich type people.
Where was Ascona?
Ascona is in Switzerland, and it seems to be one of the biggest hubs for what would later start the counterculture movement that was connected with the Esalen Institute kind of offshoot.
And like, so you had very interestingly in Ascona, I'm forgetting now the name of the, so they had like dance sections, they had psychologists in Ascona, they had writers like D.H. Lawrence, but very interestingly, the psychologists, they were both Freud's disciples.
Otto Gross was the first Freud disciple, and he, you know, had very radical ideas of how to basically destroy the patriarchal Christian civilizational matrix and replace it more with like a kind of matriarchal Bacchafen type view.
And Carl Jung, who became the second disciple of Freud, was recruited into Ascona when Otto Gross became his patient.
And Otto Gross seems to have like, not that Carl Jung didn't have his problems before then, but that Otto Gross like totally got him recruited into this Ascona thing, which also started this weird sun-worshipping and like Aryan component.
Why Global Warming Is A Scam00:05:33
There was a movie made on that weird story between Carl Jung and Otto Gross, A Dangerous Method with Kieran Knightley and Vigo Mordensen, and I forgot the other actor.
Global warming is a massive con.
There was no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition to my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, to take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011, actually, the first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when the people behind the climate change scam got caught red-handed, tinkering with the data, torturing till it screened in a scandal that I helped christen Climategate.
So I give you the background to the skullduggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us.
We've got to act now.
I rumbled their scam.
I then asked the question: okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands out.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk forward slash shop.
You'll probably find that one.
Just go to my website and look for it, jamesdellingpole.co.uk.
And I hope it helps keep you informed and gives you the material you need to bring around all those people who are still persuaded that, oh, it's a disaster.
We must amend our ways and appease the gods, appease Mother Guy.
No, we don't.
It's a scam.
Got him recruited into this Ascona thing, which also started this weird sun-worshipping and Aryan component.
There was a movie made on that weird story between Carl Jung and Otto Gross, A Dangerous Method with Kieran Knightley and Viggo Mordenson, and I forgot the other actor.
Right.
Sorry, I was just distracted then.
It came into my head.
The Black Sun.
The Black Sun is what's on the Jesuit flag, isn't it?
Is that right?
Well, it's like not, I think, officially called a Black Sun, but that is interesting.
I never actually thought about it that way.
I actually don't know how many spokes the black sun has, but the Jesuit has 32 spokes.
And on that interesting note, the Smithsonian has a Jesuit son with 16 spokes, and it's definitely connected with Jesuit activity.
And they also did weird stuff with the Native Americans, which I wrote a book on.
But yeah, I didn't actually think about it from that angle.
That's interesting.
I shouldn't have distracted you with that because you were doing brilliantly on your fantastic tangents anyway, Cynthia, which I've been loving.
I'll tell you what, talking to you is like going to see the conspiracy doctor.
You know, you've got doctor, I've got all these, I've got all these conspiracies in my head.
Can you explain them to me?
And you're pretty good at grinding it all in research.
And can we just take a step back for a moment?
Because I'll tell you where I've got to in my five years of researching this sort of who runs the world thing.
I had more or less reached the conclusion that everything from the behavior of pop stars and movie stars in photo shoots, all this sort of stuff, to the child trafficking trade and adrenochrome and the general kind of ritual sacrifice among the elites, the way that we useless eaters, we goim,
whatever you want to call us, are controlled and despised by the ruling elites.
Babylonian Mysteries Unveiled00:04:55
And indeed, the religious views of the people who run the world, they call themselves the Brotherhood, I think, among other things.
That all of this stuff can be traced back to what we know as the Babylonian mystery religions.
But as I understand it from you, it's not as simple as it's all down to Babylon.
You're saying that there were actually three loci, you might say, that we can connect it to.
So there's Apollo worship in ancient Greece.
There's Memphis, the Egyptians, and Babylon is the third of this.
Is that right?
And also, when you were talking about Horus Marduk, was it called?
Horus Marduk and the Lord.
Are these all ultimately the same root god?
I mean, because in my book, all these different gods that different ancient races worshipped are essentially fallen angels rebadged, given a kind of local name.
That they're basically the demons, the angels that were flung out of heaven and united under Lucifer.
They're all the kind of, these are the sort of the gods that have been given free play in this world.
Do you share that view?
I am of the view where I don't really believe in, it's like there's a, I guess, a fine line, right?
Or like, there's like, what is real versus what is not real?
What is material reality versus like, does something have to have material reality to be real?
And so, from that standpoint, I understand that there are things that are real that don't have a material manifestation that I know through my own self, right?
That I have a soul and I have a mind, I have reason.
And clearly, if people share an idea, there is a manifestation that will occur in certain ways.
Is that what an integral means?
A what?
Egregor.
Is that how you pronounce it?
Egregio, egregor.
I don't know what that is.
I think an egregor, if I'm pronouncing it right, is a kind of a collective idea which becomes a thing because it is shared.
But I could have got my definition wrong.
Anyway, it doesn't matter for the so to pin you down here, because I've noticed this with Matthew as with Matt as well.
I get deconstructing some of some of his myriad podcasts that he's done, and I've listened to quite a lot of them.
I get the vibe that he doesn't really believe in the reality of gods and demons and stuff.
He thinks of them as ideas, not real entities.
I don't want to talk about Matt's view, but I want to find out what you think.
Do you believe in God, for example?
A God, the God.
Yes.
Yes, I believe in the God.
Yes, God is definitely there.
I don't have a concept of God as having anything identifiable, though, in terms of like, you know, oh, God was angry, you know, and so this happened.
Like, I feel that how I've come to an understanding of God, again, like, I think that all of us are kind of limited to this way of having a concept of God is that you can only know it through what you have access to within your own, you know, sphere of being.
And over the years, I've come to believe that there is a creator, that there is an organized principle to creation that has an intention towards ever perfectibility and that it is good and that we are born sacred.
I do, you know, believe.
And Matt also, you know, believes in this as well.
Parallel Myths and Free Will00:15:12
And that we have, you know, free will.
And so when there are satanic things that are occurring, I don't view anything that is happening to us as humans in our zeitgeist and all of this as something of a as a external spiritual phenomenon,
but that we ourselves have a very complex process that we do have to go through from ignorance to something that is akin to wisdom.
There's this irony, right?
That everyone, you know, Plato made the point that, or Socrates in a Platonic writing, was making the point that I don't think that anyone, even like a bad dictator, right, an evil dictator, he said this in the Gorgias, has the intention to do ill will upon themselves.
And so it's an interesting concept that the evil has become twisted in its conceptualization of like what is the best.
Now, I don't, I agree with you that it is very disturbing to see this continuation of the mystery cult schools from like the evil mystery cult schools and how it's been able to be continued for as long as they have.
And why are they so like obsessed with this very evil conceptualization of what they want to bring about?
And I agree, this is it's very perplexing and it's very disturbing.
And there doesn't seem to be enough like good people organizing against it in a more organized fashion.
I'm also disappointed at how many people seem to be able to be recruited into this.
Like even if you think about it from like an average person level, the fact that people are watching the stuff that they're watching on Netflix and they're just accepting it as entertainment is highly concerning and not realizing like this isn't first of all, it was already questionable that you would want to see something like that as entertainment.
Like I was disturbed when I was in my 20s when so many of my friends loved movies like Saw, which was just about like the most brutal torture, various scenes of torture, and that was what you were going to see.
It wasn't even like these people trying to escape from it.
It's like, oh, yeah, this is like Saw 11.
We're going to see some more people get tortured and hacked to death.
There's something very disappointing that people are going in that direction.
And I think part of it is that there is a psychology in this that when you're feeling disempowered, you know, the way that we have outlets and the way that we have coping becomes dark.
And most people are unfortunately, they follow whatever construct is given to them.
They cannot, they're not able to create the construct.
But for me, that doesn't mean that that is a that is our nature, or that's like something we have to go through, and that there aren't solutions and that there isn't a way out.
But it is, I agree with you, like it's very heavy-hitting to look at the course of the mystery cults.
And for me, like at the end of the day, all I can think of is it's best to have the be equipped with the information so that we can recognize it and we can kind of know the players behind it.
Like, for instance, today, like what is behind it, so that you don't get kind of trapped into it or you don't get sucked into a paralyzing, depressive state where all you can do is like, you know, get high and check out and hope that the madness, you know, peaks somewhere far from where you're living.
So that's the best I can do.
And I guess for me, the problem, yeah, with like external manifestations is If we're going to say that we don't play a role anymore in this huge fight of external manifestations of like evil versus good spirits, it we i feel that like our whole free will at that point becomes really obsolete.
Um, but on that note, you know, this concept of magic, this concept of like evil conjurations or whatever, there is a reality to obsessing over something and wanting it to manifest.
Like there, there is a real component.
Um, and um, a lot of people actually, funny enough, will hear the most disturbing things that are being said, even by certain guests on podcast shows talking about like um purgative violence.
You know, like things are getting really crazy in the States, for instance.
And there are people who are making the rounds who are selling themselves still as like family-oriented.
They want just like you know, the Christian values and society and all that, and they're calling for purgative violence as the solution because it's either kill or be killed.
And who says you might have heard of it?
Former Green Berets who former Green Berets who are parading themselves as like financial, I mean, they are, I guess, like financial, you know, financially savvy.
There are a lot of, yeah, there are a lot of actually people who are involved in the military formally who are now like on a lot of podcast shows in the States and in Canada that are confusing people, saying that you, you know, you need to man up, you need to be like, you need to, because it's true, right?
Like the whole woke liberalism thing has turned people into what I would call like more hamster-like.
And obviously, you want to not be a hamster in life, like a suburban hamster, but you also don't want to have like grandiose delusions that you can be a Rambo either.
And so there are a lot of like really good intentioned people who hear extreme phrases and they're not able to take it in.
They make all kinds of excuses for why that wasn't, even though the person literally said it, it's not, it isn't really like that.
So I don't know how I got onto that tangent from what we were talking about before.
I distracted you slightly.
I've just so the reason I was asking you that question about your beliefs is not because I'm a kind of Christian nutcase who insists that everyone else must be exactly as I am.
It's more that I mean, I suppose there are two possible ways of looking at the mystery schools and their successors, the secret societies that run the world, which all seem to be preoccupied with these signs and symbols and traditions like sacrificing children to their gods and stuff, sexual sort of aberrant sexual behavior.
So they do all this stuff.
Now, there are two ways of looking at it.
Either they do this because it's just what they do, and they get their some of them get their perverse kicks from it.
Most of them do it just because it's required to get on.
And this becomes a form of compromat, a form of ritual binding, and a sort of an elite signifier that they're following the club rules.
That's one interpretation, but it's not real.
They think that they're worshiping these dark gods, but they're not really, the dark gods don't exist.
Or, which is my view, you would go, yeah, they do this stuff because unfortunately it works.
If you make obeisance to these dark gods, the dark gods will reward you because they have been given this realm by God's permission to that they have a certain they have a certain freedom.
And if when humans worship them, which the elites all do, they call it the old religion.
They think that people like me in that case is worshiping God when they know who we should really worship.
And their dark gods give them power.
Now, are you in category one or in category two?
Are you with me, or are you more of a kind of rationalist?
It might be said.
I guess my question in what you're talking about, because I believe that there's only one God.
And so if there is only one God who is an all-perfect God, there's only one God with a capital G, but there are lots of fallen angels.
He created these angels and a third of them rebelled because they didn't like it when God created man in his image.
And they then mated with humans.
It says in Genesis, whatever it is, Genesis 8, is it?
They found the daughters of the children of men.
And they have sex.
It says that in Genesis that I thought that was just in the book of Egypt.
Well, for me, just from like a, well, I will definitely review that.
For me, I guess, again, because there's philosophy in this, right?
So I'm a fan of like the Leibnizian approach to Christian thinking.
And, you know, Leibniz was the one who had the famous debate with Samuel Clark on the behalf of Newton on like how does God actually operate in the universe that he created.
And I think that I'm a very big fan of how Leibniz was debating the Newtonian viewpoint, which I think, you know, Newton was also a part of the kind of groupings that we're talking about in a culture.
So for me, it's like, if God is the creator and he's all good and all perfect, I don't understand how something, you know, like that Satan has like some kind of like a yin-yang situation at that point.
And also, like, for instance, Albert Pike in his Morals of Dogma, he plays on words, right?
So at first, and I have not read the whole thing, but on archive.org, you can search certain words.
So it allows you to skip around very, very easily.
And he talks about God and Christianity for like the beginning parts of the book.
So it kind of sounds almost like he's Christian, kind of like how the Rosicrucians were speaking too, right?
They were not very honest and they're very delphic with how they were speaking about God and Christianity.
But then you look up Lucifer in the book of morals and dogma and you realize that he is of the viewpoint that God is pretty much like a Luciferian God.
The worshiping of Apollo, for instance, is kind of like you could say a prequel to Lucifer.
And Apollo is the sun god and is the god of prophecy.
There's a lot of parallels to Apollo and Lucifer.
And if you look at a lot of the writings of these people, including the Rosicrucians, right?
Like the first Rosicrucian manifesto is about the world reformation by order of Apollo, is what it's called.
And then the last one is on Pegasus from Mount Parnassus to Apollo, Apollo's realm.
So the Rosicrucians are very clear that it is the order of Apollo that they want to reinstall.
Right.
And, you know, so in my book, Apollo would be basically Lucifer.
Now, that's what I was really asking you about: Marduk and Horus.
Were they actually Lucifer as well?
Have they got anything in common with Lucifer?
I would say that all three of them are archetypes of Lucifer.
And we bring that up too in like our episode one of the Hidden Hand Behind UFOs, Lifting the Esoteric Veil, how we are thinking about the old pantheon of gods, like the Greek pantheon of gods, which I'm most familiar with compared to Babylon and Egypt.
But that these gods there's many different versions as well, right?
The mythologies will have one god go through many different, and that's the thing too, right?
Like people have to realize how much of the mythologies have been clearly shaped by writers and thinkers, right?
So like Aeschylus, who was an ancient tragedian in Athens at the time, very famous.
He wrote the Orestes trilogy, which was an intervention into the eye for an eye problem in Athens and was using the Trojan War and the curse of Agamemnon with Cassandra and all of this.
That Orestes killed his father because Agamemnon killed, sacrificed his daughter, Iphigenia, Orestes' sister, for good wins on his journey to Troy.
What about that?
Which again is very interesting.
Yeah, I know.
So it's even referencing.
The war is really plummeted in my estimation.
Agamemnon has really plummeted in my estimation.
Bards and Religious Hijacking00:16:01
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like for his brother, for his brother's wife being stolen, right, Menelaus, he sacrifices his daughter.
But it's also to show like there's an ominous thing to this whole Greek involvement in the Trojan War.
And there's clearly criticism of the Greeks basically really hurting themselves spiritually as a people by participating in this war, which ended with them slaughtering all of the men, enslaving the women and the children.
So it was a very, very criminal, terrible war that was criticized heavily by a lot of the tragedians like Aeschylus and Sophocles.
But Aeschylus is also like reshaping the mythologies, right?
And like the Arines, the Furies, are the creatures of Apollo.
And they are the ones that, so Orestes kills his father, but now he's cursed.
You are guilty of, you know, killing your father, parasite.
They're going to chase him until he meets his undoing.
And this was like the belief, you know, that the furies will get you whenever you break one of the cardinal rules, even though Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter.
And so, to end this, like, this eye for an eye situation where you as an individual need to take it upon yourself for the revenge aspect of things, Aeschylus brings in the Areopagus, which is the court system, and has Athena head this.
And, you know, so that the Arinis are not obliterated, but and they're trying to be respectful and everything, but they're saying, like, we don't really need you anymore, but thank you for your services.
And it's interesting because Aeschylus even writes in this trilogy that the Arinis were like these, you know, very disgusting creatures, dripping and stinking.
And they would like, their base was at the Apollo temples, which I think is also kind of saying something more subtle, like, because, again, the Apollo cult was super powerful in intelligence operations.
And, you know, people were giving their money for the prophecy of the oracle, but really it was just like basically telling them your plans.
And then they coordinate with these nodes in Babylon and Egypt, according to my theory.
And they can orchestrate how war scenarios are going to play out.
Yeah.
So anyway, Aeschylus shaped a lot of that mythology.
There are a lot of other people who were like shaping and reshaping the mythology, retooling the mythology.
So there is very much like a battle of like the storytellers.
That's why, interestingly, Queen Elizabeth seems to have like killed all of the bards because they were apparently like did she were apparently insane radicalism.
I don't know about it, but she killed all the bards.
Yeah.
Gloriana, lovely, lovely Gloriana, the virgin queen.
Yeah, she was responsible for a lot of it.
And I don't know, like, you know, like the Pied Piper type concepts, like, because there were bad bards, right?
Or like the pan concept.
I'm not saying all the bards were bad, but there were a lot of like bad bards.
And they would travel from town to town and they were like spreading things that were not so great.
But interesting story, I don't know enough about it.
And obviously, the Queen Elizabeth court is a mixture of a whole bunch of things.
And I can't really pinpoint exactly whether she was ultimately doing something good or bad, but it's very complex still.
That period of time is like.
We could do a whole podcast, couldn't we, on that period.
And I think that we shouldn't skitter over it because it's just too big a subject.
We'll only scratch the surface.
But interesting about the bards.
So how many are the records about this?
Was it a policy?
Yeah, I think bard eradication.
I know that if you searched it on the internet, you will get something like it's acknowledged that it happened.
I mean, I was quite surprised to discover that in Henry VIII's reign, one of the estimates of how many people were killed in his reign was 72,000, which, as a proportion of the population, must have been quite, I mean, that's slaughter on quite a large scale, isn't it?
Yeah, I mean, Henry VIII was, I think, a disaster.
I think that it's still the popular conception of him.
We all know he was a Roman, or despite being sort of charismatic and into jousting and hunting and stuff, and a ladies' man, and he wrote green sleeves, allegedly.
But I think we still tend to think of him as a bit of a psycho.
But Elizabeth I, I mean, presumably she didn't kill that many.
Oh, Queen Elizabeth killing, like, again, I don't know exactly, you know, what that it sounds like she was introducing stability.
But again, I haven't really looked too much into like how people were.
I mean, they call it the golden age.
So I guess it must have been doing okay for Cynthia.
You know, that's not necessarily the case.
Anything that gets a label like that, that's almost certainly a psyop.
But listen, I'm conscious because I wanted to talk to you.
We could go anywhere.
Before we go into that, I just want to note, though, that King Henry VIII was the one who began the Anglican Church.
And I don't know.
Well, it seems that the Anglican Church, if you look at King Louis XIV, who called himself the Sun King and was into Apollo big time, and he's called, you know, the Sun King and his own valet and all this, but he started the Gallican Church.
And there seems to be similarities between, because, you know, the monarch becomes the head of the church, right?
And so they become like equivalent.
I mean, already the monarch was sort of considered this way, but it's of even more power.
And with the Gallican Church, which I think is very telling, which seems to have a lot of linkage with the Anglican Church, under Napoleon, he was announcing under this Gallican church that he would be the head of all, you know, all religious institutions in the world.
I think, you know, he was even including the Jewish synagogues, you know, in this view of his.
So I think that the Gallican church especially became very, very clear in that orientation.
In the research that I'm doing with the Bohemian brethren, which later became the Moravian Brethren and all of these, the Anglican Church was known for, I think, having a very open-door policy and sort of incorporating a lot of these different sects, religious sects into it.
But I feel that there was a very political agenda in how there was this kind of re-warping of things.
I don't know what basically, what do you think of Anglicanism?
Well, I am an Anglican myself.
I mean, I was born into the Church of England, as we all are, if we're born British, you automatically, regardless of your part of it.
Yeah, you become part of the parish.
But Look, I mean, it's given us the Book of Common Prayer, Cranmer's Liturgy.
It's given us the King James Bible, which is pretty good, apart from the fact that it was commissioned by a guy who was probably an occultist himself.
I think I'm very suspicious about the kings and queens of England, about their genuine, as opposed to their ostensible spiritual affiliations.
They all pretend to be Christians, but I'm not sure that they actually are or were.
But yeah, I think that the Catholic Church historically is well dodgy.
I think that there are clear that it's been hijacked by the forces of darkness.
And although there are sort of individual Catholics who are great and good people, the church itself is dodgy as.
But then you look at the Anglican churches, well, all the churches have been infiltrated.
I mean, I'm a massive fan of the Orthodox, but I know that on the Satanic Council or whatever it is, along with people like popes and judges and things, there's also Orthodox bishops.
The rot is everywhere.
So I think John Calvin was, his real name was Cohen.
I think the Jesuits were crypto-Jews who became who infiltrated the Catholic Church.
Inevitably, if you're Satan, your chief target is going to be the church.
It would make sense.
I mean, he's quite clever.
he's quite good at his job station so inevitably he's going to infiltrate oh sorry Well, that's it.
No, you asked me what I mean.
I'm quite, in a way, I'm quite open-minded in as much as I'm always interested in learning more and adjusting my position.
For example, I did a Psalms podcast the other day with an evangelical Christian who absolutely convinced me, at least for the duration of the podcast, that Christmas was a was never really a Christian festival.
That it was.
It was just a sort of a syncretized pagan festival and and so this person didn't celebrate Christmas with his children at all because it was ungodly.
And then I and he recommended this fascinating book sort of explaining how all Catholic traditions are just basically re-badged, mystery religion practices that, that the Virgin Mary is just a re-badged.
I can't remember which goddess it is, it's Asherah or anyway.
I then get, get another, another chap who's an Orthodox Orthodox priest in in America America, and he sends me a message saying, well, this is all rubbish.
Christian Christmas was a Christian festival and your guys talking nonsense.
So it's a particularly.
Christianity is a really really big, big rabbit hole, maybe the biggest of them all, and it's very, very hard to get absolute handle on it when there are so many good players.
But you know, you today have have opened another kind of tunnel in the rabbit hole.
St. Benedict was a baddie.
I don't know anything about St. Benedict.
I'm going to look him up now and find out about it because you think about the Benedictine, all the Benedictine monasteries.
I thought monks were basically good because they sing psalms and they, you know?
And now I'm thinking, well, hang on a second, St. Benedict, maybe he was buried on an Apollo tomb with his brother, did you say, or with his sister?
His twin sister.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I think that, you know, the parts of the Catholic, because obviously, you know, like, I'm a fan of St. Augustine.
Like, I do like a lot of, I mean, and there was only the Catholic Church at the beginning, you know, of the church history, but I do think that there were a lot of really good contributors to the teachings that, you know, are still like kind of the foundation of some of the best lessons of Christianity.
But I think that Benedict was, he introduced forms of mysticism that, you know, were pagan mystery cult.
And I mean, pagan, for me, the word pagan isn't, it's not specific enough, but like that they were the mystery cult practices that were being kind of brought in.
And Catholic mysticism is a very, you know, I find dangerous and troubling section.
And whenever, and that's the problem too, right?
With like any kind of, I guess, religious experience that if you are, and there's a lot of connection with this and what they're trying to do now, right?
Like, so for instance, the Immortal Key, I forgot the name of the author and it's a very hard name to pronounce, but the Immortal Key is a very big book right now that's being promoted where taking, you know, whatever kind of mind-expanding drug is going to now allow you to connect directly with God.
And I don't think that that's a new concept.
I think that that's actually a very old concept.
But the question remains, like, are you really speaking to God or are you speaking to someone else?
You know, or like, or someone pouring certain ideas into your mind?
Because, you know, with in the Immortal Key, the way it starts out, which I haven't completed the book, but it was very interesting that this woman was talking about her experience of how she was an atheist her whole life.
And then when she took, I don't know if it was LSD, but I mean, these things are being fine-tuned more and more at this stage.
So like LSD is not specific enough, but you need to have like a guide, right?
Mystical Experiences and Corruption00:13:37
Like your therapist is your spirit guide throughout this.
So, who is your therapist?
Like, people need to be, you know, really asking questions about the sort of experience that you're being led upon.
And Carl Jung was very much also a part of that.
Like, for people who don't know, he was into the Illusinian mysteries.
He was into the mystery cults.
Again, Ascona, his connection with Oscona is also very indicative of this.
But also, his idea of descending into the depths, you know, he envisioned that, and this is a very, this is the framework now of like where they break you, they break you down and rebuild you.
And if you can survive it, it's a very painful process, but if you can survive it, you become almost godlike, is the belief in this, right?
So that's what a lot of people are doing who get very power crazy.
The Thelemites, you know, the followers of Aleister Crowley believe in a very pretty much the same framework that you have to like really break yourself down, survive the trials in the depths.
And if you survive, you become like a demigod or a god-man.
And his imagery of his process himself personally was like, you know, a male body with a lion's head with the serpent around it.
And that statue, the Leon Stophelis, sorry, I still have to read.
There's a paper specifically on this, I think, by Richard Knoll, who wrote a great book on Carl Jung and used to be a Jungian, if I understand correctly, so an insider.
But that exact statue is also on the Vatican grounds.
And it's very interesting because Carl Jung was ultimately someone who was very critical of Christianity because his viewpoint was that Christianity was a Jewish religion that was forced upon the German people and that that wasn't their real religion.
Their real religion was Odin.
Yeah, yeah.
And that was a lot of like, that's why I like also this idea that like, you know, the things that were kind of leading up to Hitler, these Viking movements, they believe in Odin as their God, right?
Like they don't believe that there was a rejection of Jesus.
And, you know, under the Nazi realm too, there wasn't really, it wasn't really Christian.
It was a kind of German Volkish mysticism that had a huge amount of its roots in this sort of revamping and reinterpretation of even the Viking history, which a lot of it isn't even like archaeologically, historically provable.
It's through the storytelling, which becomes real for the people.
And this is their real, and this is the concept of blood and soil, too, right?
Like that, depending on where you were born in the world, you're going to have a different God.
You're going to have a different connection.
I don't know exactly how they view how these different gods are connecting with each other and stuff, but there is this viewpoint that where you're born is like what you are spiritually connected to, sort of thing.
But anyway, Jung rejected Christianity as this.
But that's what's so interesting is that this was the imagery that he identified in his transformation into a god-like man.
And that statue is in the Vatican, is also in the Vatican grounds.
So again, if people want to know more about this, they can look up Carl Jung on my Through a Glass Darkly substack.
But yeah, Richard Noel is the one who did a lot of work on this.
And yeah, it's interesting.
The problem is you know too much.
But I sometimes sense that you've got all this knowledge at your disposal, but you haven't found a kind of a line through it yet.
You're sort of, you've been in so many different directions and absorbed so much information, but you haven't found a kind of simple line.
Because I'm more basic than you, I found a line, and I pretty much know where I'm going, but I'm always open to if an obstacle comes in my route, I'll go around it.
You've given me a wild card today, St. Benedict, bad, which has caused me to sort of think a little harder about my attitude towards the monastic traditions.
I mean, the Benedictine rule was...
You see, I could spend the rest of this podcast picking you up on that point.
You see, I am quite curious that if you're ruling out mysticism within Christianity, aren't you taking away one of the things that makes it exciting and real?
I mean, if it's just a kind of, if it's just a sort of behavioral mode, if it's just a question of, yeah, read your Bible, do good things.
I mean, great if you can do it.
But I think some of us like signs that God is there with us, that he's got our back.
We like our miracles and things.
And I have great respect, for example, for those monks who, you know, people like Simon Stylites, you think he was sitting on a pillar for no end or perhaps even a not good end.
But maybe he was communing with demons.
I mean, is that your or or he was just sort of conjuring up weird stuff in his head, which had no relation to anything.
You don't think these people are communicating with God?
I don't know that person's story in the world.
Simon Stylites is the one that lived on top of a pillar.
But there's a great tradition of all these ascetic monks and hermits and things who go off in remote places.
There are ones in the modern, people who died quite recently, like St. Paisios in the Greek Orthodox tradition.
The saints and martyrs.
It sounds like you're kind of ruling them out.
Well, I mean, the thing too is that in the recognition of a certain grouping of saints and prophets, you're also ruling out perhaps the Islamic idea of right, like their prophets and so forth.
And there are other religions that have their view on people who could prophecy and all of this.
So there's a like.
Yeah, but I'd say they were talking to demons, not, I mean, it's not that I don't like Sufi mystics.
I'm not necessarily calling them badas exactly, or even in the Eastern religions.
I mean, well, the further Eastern religions, like the sort of the gurus and stuff.
But it's where they're getting their information.
It seems to me that if you're saying, which is what you seem to be saying, is that monks who have mystical experiences, they're essentially not really Christian experiences.
Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to say, I'm saying that there was something introduced that was problematic into Christian mysticism, right?
Which had certain components that you can say did open the doors to the mystery schools who were the experts, I would say, in mystical manipulations, which I think we see today as well with the whole Esalen Institute, you know, route of mystical experience.
And you said yourself that there's corruption.
I've read to you about the Esalen before, but I can't remember what it is.
Is it quite influential?
Oh, yeah, it's super influential.
It's kind of like the lighthouse for the New Age movement.
And a lot of prominent lecturers in psychology and the LSD field and basically talking about your spiritual experiences through these kinds of conduits.
So psychology and drugs are and a kind of idea of spirituality that not so much centered on God is like what they're promoting, which I view as very similar techniques, but like honed with modern day science from the mystery school stuff.
And like, you know, the corruptions of the Catholic Church, I think that have been infiltrated with the bad mystery school traditions most definitely enter into the field of mysticism.
And so I'm not trying to discount all of mysticism.
I don't think I agree with you.
I don't think that that is something that would be ultimately constructive.
And I'll say more about how I view mysticism in a moment.
But as soon as you have something that is so personal as a mystical experience and you have what appears to be a corruption that has come into the Catholic Church, right, that I think we agree upon that has ties to the mystery schools, how are you going to begin to know how this has come into this part of things, right?
So like, for instance, the Dominicans, like the Franciscans, the Dominicans, and the Jesuits all seem to have a certain kind of coordination as well with certain things.
And there are certain things that are tied to mystical practices.
And it's not like Christian mysticism didn't exist before these people.
So I'm not trying to talk about the entire history of Christian mysticism, but just that there have been, it seems, things that have gone into it that are problematic.
And how do you even begin to start differentiating it?
Is it a huge problem for the faith?
And I'm not trying to put myself in a situation where I'm going to tell you what you should discount and what you should not discount.
But there is, I think, that element that obviously needs to be aware of.
And you say yourself that people who are influenced by something bad are influenced by an evil influence from whatever the source may be.
Well, then this idea of a mystical experience, which I can at least agree with you on this, it opens the gateway to something good or to something bad, or possibly just confusion as well.
So for me, when there isn't an ability, I guess, to fully assess and think about things outside of just an experience, I feel that there's no way that you can possibly know, right?
Like, was that a good or was that a bad experience you had?
Like, we have to have some ability to think about and reflect upon the experience and not just be like an empty vessel where that experience comes into us.
So, obviously, there is, I don't think that a mystical experience is to be discounted or is something that is not real.
The Role in Experience00:10:12
But I think that we play a role in that experience as well.
And you have to be also in the driver's seat a bit and not just be taken on for a ride and not ask questions about where you're headed kind of thing.
Do you think we have time for you to give me a potted history of the thing that I originally wanted to talk to you about?
We don't have to do it this time, but I was just quite intrigued by you've looked into the history of the Tavistock Institute.
And it's, I mean, I was interested, for example, to learn that the eldest son of the Duke of Bedford is called the Marquis of Tavistock, isn't he?
And they live at Wobanau Abbey.
And their family name is Russell.
And Russell, the Russell family, is identified by Springmeier as one of the 13 satanic bloodline families.
So the Russells are obviously in deep in this stuff and that connection with.
So can you just talk about this for a bit?
Tell me about this, this sort of what, why did the Russells get into this?
Who devised the Tavistock Institute and what was the purpose?
Oh, well, that, you know, that is a really hard thing for me to.
I've been trying to research this in terms of like the root and the origin.
And the Russell connection is the best in terms of that.
There is a historical account by an insider of the Tavistock history.
I think his name is H. V. Dix.
And I can say something on the insights I gained from reading that, but it's very much not open in terms of this older Tavistock history.
There seems to also be a possibility that Hitler was in this.
I think there was another notable Nazi that definitely was directly tied to Tavistock.
I think, yeah, as a subject.
So you're suggesting that it's possible Hitler, I actually know some Russells.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they're nice girls.
And the thing is, you meet people from these families and they don't always know that they're bloodlines.
And that's the thing.
I think that's a really important point, you know, for you to make because it's easy, you know, for us who have been, you know, born, like a lot of people are born into families where the family history is just, it's also just like, it's not known, right?
Like I don't, I guess that's why like things like ancestry DNA is like, it's, it's so popular, but is also a way for them to get your biological information.
But it's just, it's unfortunately not practiced by, I think, the average family to have a history of like what your family was a part of and everything, which is important.
But even, and so then when we see these families that do have that sort of legacy, we sometimes, I think, yeah, like think too much about it, that everything is so uniform as an understanding within those families, which is not necessarily the case either.
I also like to make the point with people that Aldous Huxley and Julian Huxley, right?
Julian was the older brother.
They had a middle brother.
Their father also is not a well-known name, right?
It was their grandfather, Thomas Huxley, who was the great figure in the family.
They had a middle brother who hung himself on their grounds because the amount of family pressure on the family was so high.
It's not like these aren't people who themselves, like Julian was going through electroshock therapy during the London bombings.
Aldous Huxley was noted for saying he was happy that he lost his eyesight because the expectations wouldn't be as heavy upon him as they were on Julian.
But that was, you know, that's an exception, but also shows that these are still people.
At the end of the day, they're not just these like hollowed out, you know, shells that are kind of like robots that have been just totally programmed to do something.
And that there's all of this struggle as well, because it's unnatural, right?
It's unnatural to ultimately be tasked with these sort of mandates.
And there's, it takes time to corrupt someone.
And so I think that it's very humanizing to see, like, for instance, that Julian did have to go through electroshock therapy to get to a point where he's now creating UNESCO and he's like the co-founder of transhumanism with Thayelle de Chardin and this sort of stuff.
But it doesn't just happen.
It's not even enough for you to be going through that as a child.
And on that note, too, with like the blank slate, right?
William Sargent, who did a lot of work for the Tavistock Institute, basically doing experimentations on soldiers after World War I with PTSD.
The idea was always that they want the ideal was that they wanted a blank slate.
They wanted to be able to write anew on someone.
And they found that they couldn't do that.
So even though there's undoubtedly a lot of success that they have achieved with MK Ultra Tavistock processes, it's very comforting to realize that even William Sargent has to acknowledge in his book that if someone has a strong conviction in something,
whether it be true or not, but if you have a strong conviction in something, you have a strong foundation, you cannot just break that with a hammer or a sledgehammer and just rewrite upon it.
And William Sargent said, with those people, you basically have to like kill them.
You know, so he said the psychiatric asylums or the hangman's noose are for those people.
So I think that that is oddly comforting because it shows that we do have a lot of ability to resist.
Yeah, we can be killed instead of locked up.
Well, the fact that they have to resort to that, right, is a form of weakness.
And obviously, you can't do that with everybody.
Ultimately, the goal is they need the masses to worship them and accept them.
That's the whole idea, too, of bringing upon it a new Roman Empire type construct, which is what I see is what they're trying to do-a more revised Roman Empire with the mystery cults that were associated with the Roman Empire.
But you need the masses to love it.
You need the masses to want it, you know, the gladiator games, all that, and to corrupt the masses, but they need them to worship them.
So there is always, I feel, that optimism, because at the end of the day, I still believe that people are born sacred.
I believe that there is all of this energy that is constantly put to trying to get people to go in a certain line that is clearly very unnatural.
And there's like so much energy.
Like, think about everything that's going on with the entertainment industry and all that.
So, like, in one way, it's very disappointing to see people corrupted in like Hollywood and stuff like that.
But when you look at the masses and how much work that they're trying to do to get people to think a certain way, that is sort of proof in of itself how unnatural it is for us and how we would so easily switch to something more natural if all of a sudden we were allowed,
you know, it's like we're going to now have this kind of positive outlook and we're going to have this constructive outlook and cooperation and so far, so forth.
Like people will immediately go for that.
Greece is a good example, right?
Where Greece has been like totally gutted economically, but for like a short period of time, there was this like pushback from Greece that maybe they could stand up and become economically sovereign.
And, you know, there were a lot of Greek people that we knew who were like very disembodied, which is sad, right?
When you think about like how much of civilization, Western civilization comes from the Greek influence in a positive way, from like Solon of Athens and so forth.
But They became like totally different like overnight when they saw that there was a certain kind of leadership that was like a David versus Goliath type, you know, feeling, but like, you know, that they were feeling very positive and optimistic, and that was in them the whole time.
Operation Phoenix: Lit00:15:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so they were totally disempowered for like decades and then instantly lit.
Like the Greek people can be a unified people, a strong people, a sovereign people.
It was there the whole time.
So I think that that is a really positive thing to keep in mind.
You know, like during COVID, right before the Truckers protest, Trudeau had said, you know, and it was very scary.
It was very isolating.
When I would go out to the grocery store and stuff, it seemed like everybody was on board with this and they were masked up and they were going to get the third vaccine or whatever.
I mean, to be fair, I think it was only the second vaccine that had come out, maybe, or the first one.
I think it's the first one.
And Trudeau was like saying, anyone who is not vaccinated is a misogynist and a racist.
And I was ready to be sent to a concentration camp at that point.
And like you had heard stories, I'm pretty sure that they had empty like hotel type prison cells for people that lock on the outside of the door that they were prepared to send people to who didn't go along with this.
And obviously it was a minority who had not been vaccinated.
And then the trucker protest happened like really shortly after that.
And I was so relieved because I was really thinking, oh my God, did everyone just go along with this and like goodbye to any conception of citizen rights?
And it was interesting because even though the majority have been vaccinated, there were clearly so many people who had been vaccinated who were also along the streets cheering on these truckers who were going across the entire country to protest peacefully in Ottawa.
And that was so powerful.
And I was so surprised because I never had high expectations for Canadians to do anything of an organized, intelligent pushback.
And it was so smart that the message was still very loving and is family oriented.
And, you know, there were setbacks in terms of like what exactly should, as with a lot of these movements, unfortunately, like if you have like a seat at the table, what do you want to see?
At least there was this clear pushback of like, you know, we should have the right to decide our medical issues and especially on the vaccination of the children.
So when that happened, it again lit a light for so many people instantly.
And there was this idea of a unity in a very positive way.
And it wasn't to try to like, you know, hunt down the people who were for the vaccines or anything.
It was a very positive thing.
So for me, I see these as like very big indicators.
And I'm sure like most people who are watching this, they identify themselves as being in connection with something that is good within themselves.
I think that a lot of people, the majority of people, they have that.
And it can be lit in a good way, in a positive, peaceful way.
It can be lit in a really powerful, constructive, loving, beautiful way.
But they need to keep us isolated in our, that's why things are becoming more and more divisive as well.
And there's increasingly an inability for dialogue on people who even see things differently, right?
Because obviously, no one's ever going to see everything on the same page.
But if we're in agreement that it is possible to live in a world where you know, it's not a zero-sum game that someone has to suffer.
Someone's got to get the short end of the stick.
This is a myth.
It's a lie that we've been told in order to have us fight each other instead of realizing who is pulling the strings.
And I know a lot of people, they want me to say like the list of the names, like who are the baddies.
And for me, it's more the methods that are being used because the names can change.
There are new families that are brought in.
There are new, you know, high-level, like Kissinger types who are brought in that don't even have like a whole, you know family legacy that I know of anyway for Kissinger.
But it's more the methodology, but the fact too, that we have such an extremely power, a huge power for the good, and that most people really are on this side, and and even though I understand that there's this idea that maybe Satan rules the world, I believe that you know, especially if we have yes job, but if we also believe,
but if we also believe that there is a grouping of people and there's no set number here right, who can who accept the teachings of of God and they reject Satan's rule.
to me, there is an odd optimism in that, that you still have people who are truly following the teachings of God and rejecting Satan's rule.
And so for me, that doesn't mean that that has to be a disempowered grouping.
And anyone who follows the teachings of the true teachings of God should have a certain, from my understanding, they should have actually more power.
because it is God's creation after all.
Yeah, I mean, God's going to win.
I'm in agreement with you there, but that doesn't mean we can't indulge ourselves with the gory details of institutes like the Tavistock.
Because, yeah, I mean, I agree with what you say, but it is kind of, I think that if we're going to defeat the enemy, one of their key weaknesses is when we expose their secrets.
because they they operate through secrecy and stealth and if you show their workings, they are left exposed.
It's like when the tide goes out and people can see who's not wearing any swimming trunks suddenly.
I mean, if you asked ordinary people, let's say, I'm not going to call them normies for this.
Actually, normies.
Yeah.
If you ask most normies about Tavistock, if you told them there was an institution which had been set.
up what?
In the early 20th century, with a view to brainwashing, mass brainwashing the populace in all manner of ways, including later on with the Beatles um, they'd go well Hello.
If this place really existed or if it served the function you described, there would have been a load of articles in the Daily Mail about it, a load of inside investigations, which would have explained to me.
And BBC Panorama would have covered it.
And because it's such a good story, how would the media not have told us about this thing?
Because people don't realize that the media is part of the deception.
So we need to, I think it'd be very helpful if you could outline the Tavistock and how it came about and what it does.
Yes.
So as you were bringing up that there is a link to the Russell family and the Tavistock town.
Interestingly too, if you look at the Tavistock symbol, which I don't know if you do images in your podcast, but someone can just look up Tavistock Institute on the internet and you get the coat of arms of like the sheep that's kind of like with the skin opened and hanging out.
Or do you?
The Fabian.
Fabian.
It's very similar to the Fabian.
It's very similar because the Fabian has the wolf wearing sheep's clothing, which I think later on they got rid of.
And I don't know how many people even are aware of that original logo, which is very telling.
But the sheep being hung like that is also the symbol for the Order of the Golden Fleece, where, you know, especially the Spanish Catholic monarchs were the grand masters of this order for a long time.
I think there were other countries involved as well, but I don't know too much of the details of all of the grand masters, but all to say that that is also a connection to that, the Habsburg Catholic kind of entity.
So very interesting.
I just recently found that out doing the Rosicrucian research.
So the Tavistock Institute, from its more institute and clinical history, I rely on H.V. Dix's accounts of the history.
So it's only from an insider that I've gotten the most information.
And what's very interesting is that at first it was selling itself as a clinic to treat, you know, people and including soldiers with like their issues, but they actually had a purge within maybe, I think, less than 10 years of its founding.
And it was called Operation Phoenix, which is very interesting because it is totally tied to Vietnam's Operation Phoenix.
People who haven't, I'm sure most people have not seen our film called Operation Phoenix.
They can see that for free on my substack through Glass Darkly, which goes over a lot of what I'm about to talk about with the Tavistock link to the Vietnam war and the kind of experiments they were doing on people in Vietnam.
But they interestingly called it an Operation Phoenix because the Phoenix is known to burn its nest and with this idea of like it's a purgative cleanse.
And I do feel that there are a lot of people who are calling for a purgative form of cleansing right now.
You know, it's so corrupt, just burn it all down.
And remember, Vietnam was burned the village to save the village kind of insanity.
And so it's very interesting that and the Phoenix symbol also has Rosicrucian significance and all that.
That's too much for me to go over all right now.
But again, people can see my substack for more on this.
So very interesting that the Tavistock says this about itself because there's an internal disagreement within Tavistock as to what route they were ultimately going to go in.
And the route that they went along with under the guidance of John Rawlings Rees, who wasn't the original head, was to become directly in partnership with the British military.
So at a very early stage after Operation Phoenix, they become jointly aligned with the British military in their conceptualization of psychiatry, which was a societal form of psychiatry.
So it became less about the individual and more about how to perform psychological therapy on the masses.
Hence also, you could say social engineering.
It's not to say social engineering didn't exist before this, but in the form that we know it today, Tavistock has a lot to do with that.
And John Rawlings-Rees would also be heavily involved with the World Health Organization and this concept of mental hygiene.
So a lot of the health practices.
So basically, Tavistock did what later on the RAND Institute would also do very much in the United States, which was they went into a whole bunch of these institutions and they reorganized them.
And part of one of the prominent therapists of Tavistock, I'm forgetting his name now, but Groupthink and Group Therapy also is being conceptualized through Tavistock.
Like Orwell was very creative in his 1984, but he wasn't actually making stuff up.
Like these things were actually being discussed and he was linked to British intelligence.
He actually worked as a Burmese policeman and was already involved in like shock therapy in Burma.
And Burma, Malaya were like the prototypes before what happened to Vietnam War.
And the Vietnam War, the Green Berets who were involved in this, the CIA under Lansdale Special Forces, they were even saying that Malaya and Burma were the models that they were later going to do in Vietnam with their Operation Phoenix, which was an attempt to wipe the slate clean on a societal level and rebuild a new identity, a new cultural matrix with that.
And one of the ideas is you need to shock, you need to shock the people and scramble things enough so that there is increased suggestibility and an ability to introduce radically different concepts.
And so again, people should keep in mind the sort of stuff that you're even watching for entertainment or this idea of returning to a certain kind of chaotic kill or be killed thing.
This is all part of the phase to eventually have a peak in chaos so that after that chaos, they're able to reinstitute a different kind of matrix that they want to see upon.
It's a bit like trauma.
You inflict trauma on the victim to make them susceptible to whatever stuff you want to pour into their heads.
Yeah.
Naomi Klein wrote the doctrine on that.
So I can see that it started off initially, started off as, well, the cover story was, we are treating victims of shell shocks.
Survival of the Fittest Trauma00:14:43
Already you've got a readily available market of numerous shell-shocked victims from the First World War.
So their brains have been fascinated.
And also, yeah, and also people like people forget that there was a lot of positivity in the 1800s because of there was a huge increase in standard of living through, you know, technological industrial developments that happened in the 1800s.
And H.G. Wells complains that the worst thing that has happened is that the world's population has something like tripled because the standard of living was really getting better.
The wealth of the average person in countries who were developing economically were noticeably improving and optimism.
So my hypothesis, as well as Matthew's, is that the First World War was orchestrated to artificially get countries to fight each other, to disrupt this process of, you know, things going in a certain direction, which was for positive, you know, things for the people, economic sovereignty and political sovereignty.
And so after the First World War, there wasn't just the shock for the soldiers.
There was the shock for the general populace of like, what just happened?
You know, like it was one of the highest body counts.
And I mean, the U.S. also went through a civil war, like not that long ago.
But for the world to go through this shared trauma, or a lot of the world went through a shared trauma experience.
And even if you weren't on the field, you were affected, right?
As the wife of a soldier, as a child of a soldier.
And just even how society, like London, you know, like you had like the siren alarms, right?
For the potential bombs.
So that was a huge, and William Sargent talks about that, right?
That people had to still go to work every day, not knowing if bombs were going to drop.
And you would even pass by sometimes like a building that had been bombed.
There might be live people in the building.
And like William Sargent found that for the normal person, the coping mechanism was ironically your survival instinct.
And so that's like how they've kind of warped something that obviously you should have a survival instinct.
Like it's not bad to have a survival instinct, but it can be, it can be used against you to actually be like a frog in slowly boiling water kind of scenario.
And a lot of the post-apocalyptic films that we have is basically, you know, very much pumping this idea of like, you need to be a survivor.
You need to be a survivor.
Be prepared for whatever comes your way and just survive.
But there is also this problem of you're supposed to just accept it, right?
Like don't go through the process of like, oh my God, why is this happening?
How could this be?
Because you need to just focus on surviving.
And paradoxically, that will also get you to sort of accept the parameters and readjust to a radically different situation, which is part of the shock therapy.
Right.
So, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a survival instinct, but you should also never shut off why is this happening and not be kind of led where everyone is kind of being herded to in a masterful way through game theory type, you know, nudging.
But yeah, so that was part of the brilliance of this shared shock trauma.
And so, that was also the justification for the Tavistock saying that everybody now needs therapy after the First World War.
Right.
Okay.
And, but all along, presumably, the people who conceived it, whatever the individual psychiatrist thought, the people who conceived it knew it was for societal brainwashing, mass brainwashing, mass formation.
Yeah, I think that I can't say for certain that every person at the origin of the Tavistock clinic had that mandate, right?
But I would say that even I forgot now the name of the other leader before John Rawlings Rees, but he was a follower of Carl Jung.
And Carl Jung was actually involved in the, he was in discussions with Carl Jung as to how to go about setting up the mission and the mandate for the institute.
So I don't think he was a great person either, but I don't think it was necessarily the viewpoint from the very beginning, we're going to work with the British military and we're going to combine psychological therapy with the military.
I think that it's normal for a lot of these kinds of institutes where you have people who don't have great ideas to begin with, but they're not necessarily wanting to do certain types of things.
And then there's just like gang countergang operations as well.
Like that, I feel that the original person involved with the Tavistock, which again, I'm sorry I forgot his name because I didn't, I do so many different things and it's, I don't have a great memory for names, but I don't think he was a great person either.
It's just, you know, they use this the Fabian approach, right?
The Fabian approach is that you have to be in constant combat mode, even with your colleagues.
And it's the survival of the fittest.
The RAN Institute was like that too.
They had all types of internal disagreements within.
And the concept is it's the survival of the fittest.
And whoever wins out is they're clearly, they were meant to rule the institute and dictate it.
So it's not to say that anyone in there was a saint, but there are like disagreements and there is this approach to that that is pretty brutal as like to how you treat people working in these institutes, which on some level is definitely a religious identity idea as well.
Like you have to be kind of fanatical to put yourself through something like that.
There's also clearly a striving for personal power, but there is definitely an element of fanaticism.
So how did the Tavistock Institute shape culture?
How did it brainwash the masses?
I think that A lot of the sort of opinions, the way that cultural norms were shaped, these were things that were being brought in through the education, through all of the different groupings.
Even I found out that they own this company called Uni.
I forgot the full name of it.
It was Uni something, but it was for all like household products.
And I thought that that was also really disturbing that Tavistock was actually in control of a lot of household products that were being sold, which kind of explains why you hear weird things like Johnson-Johnson baby powder.
They found like talk, talk, like a toxic company.
You mean Unilever?
Yeah, Unilever.
Yeah, Tavistock is a...
Unleave is a huge, a huge corporation.
I know.
I know.
And that's like loads of household products.
Yeah, there's that's it explains why there's all of these problematic ingredients in these products because it's not enough to say, oh, these companies were taking a shortcut to save money.
Like there's even now like products that are being found where there's undeclared ingredients in the products.
Like they're not even being declared.
And in Canada and the United States, it's a real shit show.
We don't have the same kind of protections as European products do even.
But it explains why there was a lot of these problematic things.
But it's an infiltration on like a very high level.
And then the question is, how was that allowed to happen so quickly?
And Tavistock is what, you know, influenced what would become MK Ultra in the United States.
But it was, I think, a different kind of, you know, strategy for internal warfare that people to this day don't fully realize.
And like RAN, I think, is probably also modeling itself off of a sort of Tavistock model.
And again, RAN ended up being in control of like the educational system in the States and the housing situation in the States.
The RAN is connected to that.
There's a really good book called Have it there.
There's a really good book by the RAN History.
I'm forgetting the name of it now, but it was this guy was allowed to actually go into the archives of the RAN Institute where these things were not necessarily open to the public.
I think it's one of the few recent RAND books, though.
So people could find it on the internet.
I can't find it on the bookshelf.
All this sounds like auto ab KO Kao.
The idea that before you get the new order, you have to have this period of chaos.
So as I understand it, Tavistock, one of its functions was to sort of divide the generations.
So it was instrumental in creating the British rock and roll scene, British music scene with the Beatles and the Stones.
So I think we're both Tavistock babies.
And you mentioned Adorno, didn't you?
Theodore Adorno.
I think he was involved in the Tavistock clinic, one of the cultural Marxists, wasn't he?
Was he?
I don't know.
I don't know if he was, but I know that Artie Lang did work for the Tavistock Institute.
And he was later on brought into the Esalen Institute to educate them on how to induce schizophrenic traits.
So it's very interesting that during this time, and I have it actually in this paper on my substack called Cywar False Flags and the Psychology of Shaping Another's Reality or House Mask Perception is Manufactured.
Sorry, that's a really long title.
But in that article, there is a clipping of an old Esalen Institute article from their own publication, a 1967 pamphlet, yeah, called Where It's At.
And yeah, it's being talked about how Artie Lang, this is from them, Artie Lang of London's Tavistock Clinic on a proposal to establish a blowout center at Big Sur, where a small selected group of psychotics will be treated as persons on voyages of discovery and allowed to go through their psychoses.
It appears that the non-paranoid acute schizophrenic break is relatively short and is followed by a reintegrative process so that the individual returns from his trip.
They even have it on quotes trip with a higher IQ than at the beginning.
We hope to find new ways to make such breaks, valuable, functioning, heightening experiences.
So this is, as you are correct to say, directly connected to Theodore Adorno's work with the Frankfurt Institute, who was also calling for, in his case, his specialty was music.
He was actually quite an accomplished pianist to use music to induce schizophrenic breaks.
So yes, I think that Adorno clearly was also involved with this, either directly or not, you know, but this Tavistockian type process, which the Beatles were brought into, and the Grateful Dead actually had as one of their agents, a relative, like I think the agent of Grateful Dead, his father was from the Tavistock Institute.
Again, I'm sorry, I'm very bad with names.
I think it's Trist, right?
Eric Trist.
But so yeah, the point is that there's this focus on inducing schizophrenic breaks, inducing fragmenting the mind with clearly, as they even say themselves, a reintegrative process.
So you need to shock and have the schizophrenic breaks, and then you can kind of reassemble things.
You can rebuild things.
And at the time, these words were not, didn't have like as much of a negative connotation as they do now.
And the Tavistock Clinic clearly didn't have, like, I don't think today the Esalen Institute would publicly align itself with Tavistock theory because it's more known now.
Cultural Revolution Echoes00:09:15
But there is definitely a connection with that.
And yeah, it's unfortunate that the Beatles are still as popular as they are.
But a lot of these rock groups, like Jim Morrison from the Doors, his father was not just any high-level guy from the U.S. military, but a lot of them are tied directly to the U.S. military.
But Jim Morrison's father was directly connected to the Gulf of Tongka incident.
He was in charge of the U.S. fleet in the South China Sea during the Gulf War.
He initiated the Vietnam War effectively.
Yeah.
So, yeah, This all makes sense why LSD was so important to the whole birth of the hippie scene and why Grateful Dead were giving out free acid tabs at their gigs.
That if this was the mission to kind of fracture the personalities of a generation, then that's the obvious shortcut way of doing it.
Tell everyone to tune in, turn on, tune in, and drop out.
So they, so they, they were very influential.
Because, I mean, I don't know about you, Cynthia, but when I was when I was a sort of young, when I was being intellectually formed, let's say, by the culture and by wide reading, but wide reading of books which had already been promoted by this system, not outside of books, I sort of was given the impression that the 60s was this sort of the peace and love and everything was organic.
It was just sprung from this natural expression of the desires of youth and stuff.
But it wasn't.
It was all top-down, wasn't it?
It was all invented and then kind of facilitated.
Yeah, it's unfortunate.
And you know, like before the hippie generation, you had the lost generation, right?
Which was Huxley's generation after the First World War.
And they were also a kind of like, you know, young people who kind of like dropped out as well of life because it was like the existentialism was like, what's the point if everything is, you know, as corrupt as we have viewed it after the atrocities of the First World War.
And I think that that was a kind of prequel to what would later be the hippie movement.
And Aldous Huxley, you know, wrote The Doors of Perception, which was hugely influential in the counterculture movement.
Again, it's called counterculture.
It's very much Theodore Adorno Frankfurt School concept of like you need to wage war on the classical ideas of art and literature.
Interestingly, you know, and like they're talking about Mao a lot in this.
And it is interesting to note that the Chinese were also going through the cultural revolution during this time.
And they were also, I think it's complicated and it wasn't so black and white, but there was definitely an attack on the traditional aspects.
And Confucianism was also being attacked during this period.
There was oddly a kind of syncretization that was happening at the same time there.
And you see that actually Joseph Needham and Russell did have influence in China.
And Joseph Needham is still really respected by a lot of, I think, Chinese intellectuals, unfortunately.
But that's also interesting that there was that.
I think that that's not a coincidence that they were happening both at the same time.
And one of the openings to the end of the Cultural Revolution was actually, I forgot his name.
Surprise, surprise.
Lin Den or something like that.
But he was, he's a maestro and it had been forbidden to play music like Beethoven and stuff in China.
And he actually opened up with like, and it's beautiful.
There are pictures of like a huge audience where they again played like Beethoven's Ode to Joy.
And it was kind of also an announcement that the Cultural Revolution was over in China.
And, you know, the classical music came back very quickly.
You said, you know, like most Chinese kids learn how to play a classical instrument in classical music now.
And Confucianism is also now very much prominent in the culture today.
But very interesting that they also went through this kind of clearly controlled shock to the population during the same time that it was.
But oddly, it was done in a very It was obviously done in a more heavy-handed way, and there was more of an idea of liberation, I think, all around in the West.
But for I think the youth in China, they thought that this was liberation, what was happening as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting, isn't it, that some people have this view that somehow Russia and China are different, or the BRICS nations are somehow freed from this control system, or they're different entities whose values may yet prevail against this evil Western blob.
But they're at the highest levels.
They're all the same people who started the Soviet revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, basically got Mao into power.
They're all connected, aren't they, at the highest levels?
Well, at least, you know, Putin, I mean, first of all, I would like to, I guess, make the discount that the Chinese civilization is extremely old.
And that's why it'll be interesting too for Matt to talk about the Khazarian history, because there was this odd cooperation that was happening during this time between the Confucian Chinese, the Muslims, and the Jews in having something that seemed to actually really work in terms of a positive ecumenicism.
Or like Syria, for instance, was.
Unfortunately, Syria's gone through a lot of brutality, but it was one of like the cradles of civilization and had a real mixture of religions.
And it seems to have had a positive, has been a positive center that really shows that you can have like a dialogue of cultures, a dialogue of religions.
But, you know, the Chinese civilization is very old.
So in terms of its role in the mystery cult stuff, I have not been able to connect that.
And I think that there are a lot of positive, just like there are positive things in the West.
I think that Christianity was a positive.
There are a lot of positive players and it is a positive thing that has occurred.
Phenomenally speaking, there was also positive things civilizationally in China.
But in the 20th century, 19th century, there was a lot of common infiltration, yes, that was happening in Russia, in China, and in the West.
And I am of the opinion that the communist revolutions were like not as organic as were said that they were, and that there was a lot of foreign influence actually in bringing this about.
And Putin has actually said this publicly, that he does not think that the Bolshevik Revolution was an organic thing that occurred, nor does he think that it was positive.
Now, how much he thinks about the idea of wanting to return to a tsardom of Russia, I don't know.
But all to say is that I do still think that there is some disagreement, as even there are within these institutes, as we're bringing up in terms of like economic development, like the states.
I think that there were real things that were happening in terms of economic sovereignty that really did clearly increase the standard of living of people, increased, you know, the prosperity of a people, and there was a richness in ideas for the good.
Trump's Alternate Universe00:06:06
So I don't think of everything as just being bad.
However, right now, in this moment, it's very confusing at this point, you know, like to even the strategy of Trump right now is not something that you can ever read literally.
And even the people who follow Trump know that you can't receive what he's saying in a literal way, which to me is very problematic.
And I understand, you know, the concept of like, if you want to drain the swamp and you want to, you know, address corruption, you can't, you can't say every, you can't announce everything you're about to do, but it, it's kind of reaching a ridiculous stage at this point in terms of like, just be consistent in what you're asking for, especially on just like the economic front, right?
And like his Davos speech recently, and just saying that like there's all of these accomplishments that were made in the last year, which are clearly that's not being really honest.
And, you know, the fact that they're now like producing more energy than China in just one year, which is like physically impossible for you to, you know, backtrack 50 years of deindustrialization in one year, 50 plus years, actually.
And this whole thing of like talking two opposite meanings at the same time, especially when you're talking about the economy, you have to start, you know, calling bullshit on this and say like you need to start talking more honestly.
And it's the there is something weird going on, I agree, where it's not clear like where other countries are even fitting into the weird Trump alternate universe construct.
So, I mean, they're very good.
They're very good.
They've clearly switched things up so that you can't do the kind of geopolitical analysis, like the approach and the understanding to geopolitics.
You cannot apply it to how things are now because of the whole weirdness.
Trump even says, you know, he uses the World Wrestling Foundation as his model for which what is the World Wrestling Foundation?
It's about, you know, Fakery.
Someone can be.
Well, and also, it's like a villain, like you're the good guy is pitted against the villain, but at any moment now, the good guy can side with the villain, become a villain, or the villain can side with the good guy and become the good guy.
Yeah.
Like it's it can just switch at any moment and forth.
If Cynthia, you are correct that the aim, the ultimate aim of these people is to recreate Imperial Rome, then it has got to be a good thing that within a few months, years at most, we are going to see Mark Carney and President Bieber, as I call him, Justin Castro,
being paraded through the streets of DC in chains.
And then I don't know what happens.
So they don't get chucked off the Tarpian rock, do they?
Do they get fed to the lions?
Something is it doesn't end happily for them.
And you've got to admit, well, you repeatedly said in this podcast, there's an upside.
There are always moments where things turn out right.
And amid the misery, I think a lot of people will be cheered by that moment in Canada, especially, but across the world.
Canadians have no idea what Mark Carney has actually done as his legacy.
And a lot of Canadians just like him because they don't like Trump.
And, you know, Trump obviously didn't become more popular after he announced crazy tariffs on Canada, Canadian steel, and things like this, which were already being given, you know, sold to the states for very good prices.
But I know Mark Carney has really done a number on the UK as well.
Yeah, he's had a terrible legacy.
Thank you.
Thank you, Cynthia, for sending him over to us.
We're never going to forget that, you know, what Canada did to us.
It's like...
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Anyway.
Well, we have King Charles as our head.
So we're not in charge of anything.
We don't really have a constitution.
Our prime minister can be removed anytime, like they did for Australia if the head monarch of Britain decides so.
So, you know, at the end of the day, we're all subjects of Charles.
Talking of royals in Canada, have you ever looked into the Kamloops thing?
The weird, disturbing thing that allegedly happened when Queen Elizabeth II came to Canada in the 1970s.
In British Columbia, Kamloops?
It's dark, man.
It's dark.
Anyway, I think, Cynthia, I could talk to you for hours because you know so much and it's fascinating.
And I've learned many new things.
Please tell us where we can find out more about your researches, where we can read you.
Yeah, the best place is by Substack, CynthiaChung.substack.com, titled Through Glass Darkly.
Although Obviously00:01:36
And it has my, I do various subjects, including Rising Tide, positive cultural lectures.
It's not just doom and gloom.
Although, obviously, we have to talk about that aspect because there's a lot of that going on.
There is.
There is.
Thank you.
And again, say to Matt, obviously, I'm still up for doing that podcast about why the Khazarians are good.
I don't think he's going to persuade me, but I know he'll fight a good fight.
Okay.
I look forward to watching that.
Yeah, yeah, it'll be good.
It'll be good.
And everyone else, I hope you've enjoyed this epic podcast as much as I have.
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I mean, I'm way better than, I mean, I'm way better than the rest is made-up history, for example.
And they get paid 90,000 a month.
Well, they did two years ago.
Probably get paid double that now.
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