The Delingpod - James Delingpole - Fred Pawle

Nov. 1, 2025 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:39:16

Fred Pawle

Fred Pawle is a journalist, filmmaker and mad keen surfer from Sydney who thinks it’s about time Australians stood up to the shark menace, like they used to when Aussies were Aussies. They’ve taken down the shark nets, banned shark fishing - and shark attacks and human deaths are skyrocketing. You can watch his documentary The Heart of Sharkness here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdaRygsOoWY His Substack is https://fredpawle.substack.com ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ Tickets are now available for the James x Dick Christmas Show 2025 on Saturday, 6th December. See website for details:https://www.jamesdelingpole.co.uk/Shop/?section=events#events ↓ ↓ ↓ If you need silver and gold bullion - and who wouldn’t in these dark times? - then the place to go is The Pure Gold Company. Either they can deliver worldwide to your door - or store it for you in vaults in London and Zurich. You even use it for your pension. Cash out of gold whenever you like: liquidate within 24 hours. https://bit.ly/James-Delingpole-Gold ↓ ↓ How environmentalists are killing the planet, destroying the economy and stealing your children’s future. In Watermelons, an updated edition of his ground-breaking 2011 book, JD tells the shocking true story of how a handful of political activists, green campaigners, voodoo scientists and psychopathic billionaires teamed up to invent a fake crisis called ‘global warming’. This updated edition includes two new chapters which, like a geo-engineered flood, pour cold water on some of the original’s sunny optimism and provide new insights into the diabolical nature of the climate alarmists’ sinister master plan. Purchase Watermelons by James Delingpole here:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk/Shop/ ↓ ↓ ↓ Buy James a Coffee at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/jamesdelingpole The official website of James Delingpole:https://jamesdelingpole.co.uk x

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	Global warming is a massive con.
	There is no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
	It's a non-existent problem.
	But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
	Well, I've just brought out the revised edition to my 2012 classic book, Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, to take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
	It's a shocking story.
	I wrote it, as I say, in 2011 actually, the first edition came out.
	And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
	The era when the people behind the climate change scam got caught red-handed tinkering with the data, torturing till it screamed in a scandal that I helped christen Climategate.
	So I give you the background to the skull juggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us, we've got to act now.
	I rumbled their scam.
	I then asked the question, okay, if it is a scam, who's doing this and why?
	It's a good story.
	I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
	I think it still stands out.
	I think it's a good read.
	Obviously, I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
	You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk forward slash shop.
	You'll probably find it won't.
	Just go to my website and look for it, jamesdellingpole.co.uk.
	And I hope it helps keep you informed and gives you the material you need to bring around all those people who are still persuaded that, oh, it's a disaster.
	We must amend our ways and appease the gods, appease Mother Gaia.
	No, we don't.
	It's a scam.
	I love Dellingpole.
	Go and subscribe to the podcast, baby.
	I love Dellingpole.
	And listen on the town, subscribe with me.
	I will love Dellingpole.
	To the Delling Pod with me, James Dellingpole.
	And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest.
	But before we meet him, let's have a word from one of our sponsors.
	Have you seen what the price of gold has been doing recently?
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	I mean, I'm no expert, but I've been right so far.
	I think gold and silver right now are an essential, maybe even more so silver, actually, because silver, I think, has yet to take off.
	Just my opinion.
	I'm not a financial advisor.
	I reckon that it's worth holding both of them at the moment.
	And you don't want them, of course, you don't want to buy paper gold.
	You don't want to buy paper silver.
	You don't want to buy ETFs.
	You want to buy the actual physical thing.
	Go to the Pure Gold Company and you will be put in touch with one of their advisors and they will talk you through the process, which you want to do, whether you want to have it in bullion or in coins.
	I mean, there are advantages to having coins because coins are considered, well, Britannia is anyway, considered legal tender, which means that you don't pay tax.
	Weirdly, this, but even my accountant didn't know this.
	You don't pay tax at the moment on your profits.
	Go to the Pure Gold Company.
	They will talk you through all these things and follow the link.
	Follow the link below this podcast and it will give you all the details.
	Go to the Pure Gold Company and they will give you what you need, be it gold or silver.
	Do it before it goes up even more.
	I think you'd be mad not to.
	Welcome to the Delling Pod, Fred Paul.
	I think that this podcast could well be peak dellingpole in that it combines two of my morbid fascinations.
	Sharks, obviously, and kind of conspiracists to kill us all.
	And they align perfectly in Australia, where you're speaking from.
	You've nailed it, James.
	That's exactly what attracted me to this story.
	Like you, I am conscious, and like all your listeners, I'm highly conscious of the many conspiracies around the world these days that seem to be conspiring to make us less free and less wealthy and less alive.
	Most of them, that's where it ends.
	It's just we're just less free and we're less wealthy.
	Whereas when it comes to sharks, we're less alive.
	Or we have fewer limbs.
	Before we go on, tell us about yourself.
	I mean, I met you with Bella when you, you've actually been to my house.
	You've walked around.
	And I completely forgot.
	You were just this random Australian that came around.
	And yeah.
	And then here you are back saying, mate, I've just made this docco, as I suppose you call them.
	Do you call them doccos?
	I've made a docco, mate.
	Sharks, mate.
	Sharks, mate.
	So, yes, we had a wonderful day at your place.
	My wife, Bella, actually helped bring you to Australia.
	She did.
	10 years ago.
	Which was great.
	Thanks, Bella.
	Yeah.
	So just to fill in the background, my wife, Bella, is actually a PhD history graduate from Cambridge University.
	Never heard of it.
	And I'm a humble high school dropout.
	So we were opposites attract.
	If opposites do attract, then we're a case in point.
	But we came and saw you in your lovely little, it's barely even a village.
	It's a couple of houses a month.
	At least a hamlet, yeah.
	Yeah, it's a hamlet, yeah.
	And we had a wonderful walk around the area around your, your, your house.
	And, I mean, to an Australian like me, James, that was just pure, pure English charm.
	I mean, we walked into this 13th century church, which had connections to the Washington family, if I'm not mistaken.
	Yeah.
	And anyway, it was probably very dodgy.
	Yes, yeah, yeah.
	Well, most things are, James, which is why.
	Most things are.
	But yeah, I mean, I thought it was a good experience for an Australian to walk through countryside where not everything is trying to kill you.
	So there were no king browns or taipans lurking in the undergrowth.
	There were no funnel webs.
	Had you gone for a swim in the lake, there would have been no sorters in there.
	No, you live on a land surrounded by things that want to kill you.
	Indeed, yes.
	And we're very nonchalant about it too, which is, it kind of leaves me conflicted about this shark thing.
	You know, should I just, you know, brush it off like a tough Aussie and go, oh, well, it's just a great white.
	You know, don't worry about the great whites.
	The crocodiles eat them.
	Yeah.
	There is some of that.
	I think we're going to talk a lot about this because this is a very interesting issue.
	And it's, I suppose ultimately, what it comes down to is, do you believe what the Bible tells us, which is that man is, God has given man dominion over all the creatures of the earth and they come under him?
	Or do you believe, like the eco-loons do, the econances, that we are just no better than the amoeba?
	We're no better, that we're just like a kind, we might as well be a lichen or a lichen or a, I don't know, that fish that swims up your urine flow and the kanderu fish, which when you're having a piss into the Amazon, it swims up your stream and embeds itself in your urethra.
	I mean, this is the logical conclusion of what the environmentalists think, that we are no better than these creatures.
	That is exactly the distinction we're at.
	And if I'm not mistaken, James, it's Genesis 1.26 that declares that man, all of nature is in man's dominion and it's our responsibility to look after nature.
	And there are, I mean, Aquinas looked into it.
	He, excuse me, he he investigated or sort of, you know, analyzed the morality behind the way we manage the environment.
	And it's, it's, you know, that the management of animals is our responsibility.
	But it, Aquinas drew the line at whether or not we can be cruel to animals.
	Because if animals have no will and no conscience and don't have a soul, obviously, then, you know, a less ethical or religious person would think, well, you know, you can be as cruel as you like to them.
	Aquinas said, no, you can't.
	There is still a level of ethical responsibility towards animals, but the primary responsibility for us is to look after each other.
	We are superior to animals.
	There's a really good section at the very start of my movie where I go along Manly Beach, the promenade at Manly Beach on a very sunny day.
	Everyone's out enjoying the sunshine.
	There's a lot of surfers in the water and swimmers around.
	And I've carried a billboard on my front and on my back.
	And it's got a picture of a shark about to swallow a hook.
	And it says on the billboard, support the campaign to cull sharks and save lives.
	And all I copped, James, was abuse.
	It was incredible.
	So I watched this scene and Congratulations on the movie, which I'm only halfway through, but I've been enjoying it very much.
	I thought it was braver of you to wear that billboard on Manly Beach than it was going, it would have been to go swimming, say, in that bay without the shark nets.
	Because I know what Australians are like now, particularly urban Australians.
	They are annoyingly self-righteous, up their own asses, woke, uptight.
	And you got given grief by all these, well, a lot of women, I think, let's face it.
	A lot of them were.
	I mean, there were two Karens at the end who really put on a show for me.
	They flipped.
	They really flipped.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But was that quite scary?
	Wearing that plaque.
	I mean, 24 years ago, I would have been offended.
	Sorry, go on.
	Was that quite scary?
	A scary experience?
	Exposing yourself to the cameraman.
	Yes, the cameraman who I hired, he was just a commissioned videographer.
	When we were driving to do it, he couldn't believe I was going to do it.
	He said, are we going to wind up in a fight?
	And I said, well, if we do, mate, I want to make sure that you get it all on video.
	But yeah, Manly is especially woke.
	Is it a very woke neighborhood?
	So yeah, you know your Australian geography pretty well.
	It's the federal representative there is a skier in the Olympics.
	I've forgotten her name, but she's as woke as they come.
	And they, so everyone there, when I walked along the promenade, said, nearly everyone said, well, the ocean is the shark's home.
	And we were visitors in the shark's home, as if sharks have this conscious concept of territory.
	They don't.
	They're just dumb animals that swim around and eat things.
	Well, they probably do have territory, but the idea that sharks have property rights, I think, is moot.
	Moot at best.
	That's the problem, isn't it?
	It's this assumption that sharks have sort of areas that we should allocate to them regardless of the injury they might cause to human beings.
	That's the tricky part.
	Yeah.
	So the root of this idea is that, as I explained later in the film, that there's this modern, the modern liberal world thinks these days that the natural world is sacred and all human activity is in one way or another destructive.
	And so as soon as you enter the ocean, you're being destructive in some way.
	You know, you're intruding on the or imbalancing the delicate eco-environment, marine environment.
	And I just find that attitude to human behavior and human life really disheartening, James.
	And it's rampant in Australia.
	We used to be such a fun and adventurous country.
	And now we're just a bunch of, you know, just a bunch of woke wimps who want to make it dangerous to swim in the ocean.
	And I just find that really unacceptable.
	We should put this in context, Fred.
	We've been talking around the subject, but we haven't really got to the cut to the chase.
	And I was explaining to my wife last night what I was going to do this podcast on.
	And I set out the scene about how bad things have got in Australia.
	And she was, She thinks I'm in that case conspiracy theorist, but in this instance, she was absolutely gobsmacked.
	She sat up and listened because she could not believe, for example, that you've been taking down the shark nets.
	She couldn't believe how many people have been killed.
	So tell us what's happened in Australia.
	What's changed in the last what?
	When did it start?
	It started in July 2000.
	I can put the political context.
	I can explain the political context very clearly.
	In the 90s, in 1996, Australia voted in the Howard government.
	Most people in Britain would understand this.
	He was our equivalent of Thatcher.
	I wouldn't say he was our Thatcher because he wasn't quite as robust as Margaret was.
	But he was a very conservative and principled and traditional Australian.
	His focus politically was the economy, specifically taxation and industrial relations.
	And he considered the culture wars a distraction from his agenda.
	And so he allowed the culture wars to, he compromised on the culture wars.
	And included in that was the environment.
	So he introduced a thing in 1999.
	He introduced legislation called the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act.
	It sounds like something that a Labor government would introduce.
	It was done by a Conservative government and it consolidated every federal responsibility towards the environment under one act.
	It's, you know, it's a, you'd have trouble jumping over it these days.
	It's been amended so many times and it's thick and detailed.
	But essentially what it does, James, is it handballs the responsibility and all the process for environmental protection over to bureaucrats and academics.
	And so at exactly the same time, there was this, there was an agenda to protect great white sharks.
	There was concern among researchers around the world, unsubstantiated, I'll have you know, but they just saw that this was an opportunity.
	And we can come back to the conspiracy aspect of that later.
	But they saw through the protection of great whites in Australia and it was introduced in July 2000.
	And since then, James, at least 58 people have been killed by sharks, especially mostly great whites in Australia.
	That's at least because there have been some disappearances at sea that haven't been confirmed as shark attacks, but almost certainly were.
	And that's not including the injuries.
	There's been 79 serious injuries around Australia in that time, including people who've lost limbs.
	And on top of that, our beach culture has been thoroughly, well, not thoroughly destroyed, but people are questioning whether Australians love the beaches as much as they used to.
	And certainly people in Britain would be wondering whether Australia is worth going to if going to the beach is one of the attractions.
	So that's what's happened in the past 25 years.
	It was done mostly by people, faceless people, researchers and bureaucrats and so on, who have connections to the United Nations and various international NGOs.
	And to come back to your main point, this fits very neatly into a conspiracy because not only is it making us our lives less happy and less free, but people are dying.
	And People behind it, we don't know who they are.
	No, I think you make the point in the documentary that at no point was this issue discussed in parliament.
	Nobody, MPs didn't talk about whether or not you should remove the shark nets from the beaches or ban shark fishing.
	It was just it was just introduced by the Green Blob.
	And this was the inevitable consequence was that people would die.
	And yet it wasn't discussed in Parliament.
	How can that be?
	And also, James, two months after the protection came into effect, two young men were killed by great white sharks 300 kilometres apart in the Great Australian Bight in South Australia on successive days.
	And that was a real warning that there were already too many great whites in the water.
	And it didn't raise any alarm in Canberra or anywhere.
	And what about I know that your media is about as woke as it gets?
	I mean, the ABC makes the BBC look like Fox News.
	Even your Conservative newspapers.
	It's the MSM.
	What am I talking about?
	But presumably, they don't think it's shocking anymore when people get chomped to bits by bloodthirsty fish.
	It's been normalized.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I've got to give credit to The Australian.
	I did a lot of my campaign for this.
	I've been doing this for 10 years.
	I've been writing about it for 10 years now.
	And I was working at The Australian at the time, and they unquestioningly supported me for years, arguing that the nets had to be used more widely and they were effective.
	And all the research and protection that was going on around Australia was not only a waste of money, it was futile because it wasn't getting us anywhere.
	And on top of that, fishermen around the country were just saying there's more sharks than ever, especially great whites.
	So the argument seemed to me to have been to be rather conclusive.
	So the Australian was very supportive, but you're right, the media in general, when there's an attack, they milk the sensation of it, the tragedy and the drama and often the graphic images.
	But then they just go back to quoting the same old self-interested conflict of interest experts saying, there aren't more sharks in the water.
	You're just imagining it.
	I mean, I actually quote Orwell in the film saying, because everyone is seeing more sharks, especially fishermen.
	I mean, I've got footage in the film of dozens of sharks following fishing boats and sharks swimming right to the edge of the sand at suburban beaches.
	And the experts are saying, oh, no, there's not more sharks in the water.
	You know, what are you thinking?
	You're imagining it.
	And I quote Orwell saying from 1984, you know, the party said to ignore the evidence of your eyes and ears.
	It was their, what was it?
	It was their final most important command, I think the quote is.
	And that's what they're telling us to do.
	It is 1984.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I can, well, look, the casualty rates do not lie.
	I mean, people are either being eaten.
	More people are being eaten by sharks or not more people.
	And I think the evidence shows that more people are being killed by sharks.
	Exactly.
	So when did this, When did Australia become aware that it was surrounded by am I right in thinking that sort of sea bathing as a kind of widespread activity started in about the 1930s?
	So presumably that's when they started putting up, well, started worrying about sharks and putting up nets.
	Well, 1910, I think, is the key year because that's when governments, it was mostly New South Wales and Queensland.
	It was a pretty nascent federated nation at that point.
	As a nation, in 1910, we were only nine years old.
	And most of the population was in New South Wales and Queensland and Victoria.
	In Victoria, it's too usually too cold to go swimming anyway.
	So in New South Wales and Queensland, they relaxed the Victorian era restrictions on bathing costumes, James.
	And so suddenly we were free to enjoy the therapeutic benefits of saltwater and surf without having morality police measure the length of our costumes.
	And that's when things really took off in around 1910.
	And then by the mid-1930s, in the three years to March 1937, there were nine fatal attacks in Sydney.
	Sorry.
	Nine in what space of time?
	In a three-year period.
	So it's essentially one every four months.
	Someone was getting taken.
	Right.
	It's brutal.
	I love that word taken that you Australians use.
	It's a wonderful euphemism.
	Taken.
	Taken away.
	Well, he got nibbled or he got chomped.
	Taken to the deck.
	But the government then, this is how much Australia has changed, James.
	The government formed what it called the Shark Menace Advisory Committee.
	Back then, sharks were considered a menace and they were and they still are.
	So the shark menace advisory committee came up with this amazing idea and that was to set these nets off the beaches.
	And people often hear, you hear the word net and you think, oh, it just encloses the beach and it keeps a barrier between the sharks and the people.
	No, it just acts like a trap.
	And so if the shark comes into the beach and happens to swim through the net, it can go around it or under it.
	But if it's stupid enough to swim through it, it'll get caught and it'll drown.
	Right.
	And so that's what this is just a genius bit of thinking.
	And I don't think they realized just how brilliant it was even then, James, because what happened was that since then in New South Wales, the number of fatalities at beaches where there are nets in place, there have been only two since 1937, pretty much 90 years.
	Two fatalities at protected beaches.
	So you have to wonder why.
	And there is ample evidence from fishermen and from scientists.
	It's been observed many times that when a shark is killed, when a shark dies at a particular location and the corpse is left, the body is left to hang around, sharks of that specific species stay away.
	Fishermen have told me this.
	That makes sense in the same way that right now, the gamekeeper on our estate leaves the corpses of birds, of crows and things on the wheat fields and stuff.
	And it seems to have an effect, a deterrent effect on all the other crows and things.
	So it would make sense, wouldn't it?
	The sharks, no, don't go there.
	Because you made Bruce died there the other day.
	Oh, what happened to Bruce?
	Oh, he went to Bondo.
	We haven't seen him since.
	Then I'll stay away from Bondo.
	Yeah, that would make sense.
	So they're not stupid, these sharks.
	But am I right in thinking that this was because I used to be really, really into sharks, right?
	We used to be.
	Because I'm a Jaws generation.
	I was just the right.
	I was 12, I think, when the movie Jaws came out.
	And before that, 73 was it?
	I remember my parents giving me 75, giving me extracts to read of this book, but the Pete eventually.
	And I knew all about how terrible sharks were and what perfectly evolved, killing machines they were in the days when I believed in evolution.
	And on the subject of nets, I seem to remember that the nets tend to capture the sharks when they're leaving the bay rather than when they're entering it.
	So they come through the nets, have a good swim around.
	They could theoretically take a swimmer.
	But they work anyway.
	This is the argument.
	Yeah, this is the argument that the shark huggers, I call them shark huggers, use.
	And that is they say that the shark is often caught on the beach side of the net swimming out.
	So their theory is that it's come into the beach, had a look around, decided that humans aren't very tasty, and is leaving and is rudely entrapped in this net for no reason at all.
	It's just they, these shark huggers will try any argument to disprove that the sharks work.
	But the stats don't lie.
	It's happened in Queensland.
	It's in South Africa, in South Africa at one of the beaches down there.
	They were having enormous trouble back in the 50s, I think it was.
	And they borrowed the technology and they haven't had a fatal attack since.
	This is down in Durban, I think it is.
	In Durban, so those will be bull sharks and tiger sharks in Durban.
	Well, Great Whites, yeah, as well.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	The biggest came in South Africa is Great White.
	Oh, I know.
	I had a bowl of shark fin soup in Hong Kong recently, and I asked the restaurateur where the fin came from.
	I said, What was it?
	A shark, is it?
	And he went, Oh, from the movie, you know.
	And I said, What, you mean, Jaws?
	He goes, Oh, yeah.
	I said, So it's a great white.
	And he said, Yes, it is.
	I'm going, wow, great.
	And then I said, Where did it come from?
	He said, Oh, I think I'm from South Africa.
	So I feel if you know, I may have saved the life of a South African surfer just by the South Africa was the scene of, I think, maybe the worst great white shark massacre.
	You know about this, the Birkenhead.
	The Birkenhead, I think this was possibly during the Boer War or around that time.
	It was a steamship.
	I mean, I've completely changed my views on the Boer War.
	I kind of think the British had it coming to them, whatever, but but what happened to the passengers on the Birkenhead was you wouldn't want to happen to anyone.
	So it went off, it sank off Cape Town.
	And that's where that's where most of the great white sharks are in that particular because you've got two oceans meeting, haven't you, at the bottom of South Africa?
	That's right.
	And so, so, so on the Cape Town side, you tend to have the Great Whites, and on the other side, the Pacific side, you tend to have the bulls and the tigers, particularly.
	So, this was a troop ship, and the and it was carrying horses as well.
	And the ship went down quite a long way offshore.
	And this was when the men let the women and the children go in the lifeboats.
	This is why it's known as the Birkenhead Drill, women and children first.
	And this was when it was sort of, it was codified as a result of this incident.
	So the men and the horses had to take their chances and their chances were not good.
	And the horses were, you could hear the screams of the horses.
	They were being eaten alive by these great whites.
	Will you be familiar with the was it the USS Indianapolis?
	Indianapolis.
	Now, you see, there's an interesting one.
	So that was the one that Quint talks about in Jaws.
	In a scene which was written apparently by John Millius.
	John Millius, I'm sure, was deeply suspect.
	I mean, as is almost everyone in the movie industry, of course, Spielberg is dodgy ass.
	But, yeah, so that was...
	John Williams was a surfer.
	Yeah, I'm sure.
	I mean, I'm not saying that Satanists can't be surfers as well.
	Satanists can't indulge in good activities.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, well, of course he wrote Apocalypse Now, didn't he?
	Charlie Don't Surf.
	That was probably his, that was his scene, wasn't it?
	And he did Big Wednesday as well, which was a very influential universe movie.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So you have to.
	I can now get back to Jaws.
	Can I bring you back to Jaws because I haven't.
	Yeah, sure.
	I have a, not a theory, but I have something to say about Jaws because what people forget about Jaws is that the shark only plays, the shark's just a bit player in the film.
	It's mostly the drama, the actual drama is about real estate in a seaside holiday town off New York.
	And the evil character is a guy called, I think it's Larry Vaughan, and he's a real estate mogul.
	And he knows that if the summer crowds are driven away by the fear of shark attacks, then his real estate investments will suffer.
	So he pressures the local constabulary to not alarm the holidaygoers about the presence of this shark.
	Now, the equivalent of Larry Vaughan today, these days, are the shark researchers who are telling everyone in Australia, oh, it's not that dangerous in the water.
	It's pretty safe.
	You just have to think about this rationally.
	The sharks don't want to eat you.
	Whenever they get caught in the nets, they're on their way out and all that sort of stuff.
	So they are the equivalent.
	Jaws, the warning from Jaws is real and the villains are real.
	And they have taxpayer-funded Australian researchers and academics.
	Yes, you've just brought up another of the excuses used by environmentalists.
	And they've been using this one for a long time.
	I mean, even when I was a child, I was reading books saying, well, of course, when a great white attacks a human, it does so by mistake.
	It thinks it's a seal.
	Humans are not its natural prey.
	Sharks don't want to eat us, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
	Mate, I've seen footage of them chomping on boat propellers.
	I mean, these are not discriminating at all.
	They're not discerning.
	They're not gourmons, you know.
	So, yes.
	And to further emphasise that point, there have been many attacks, and this is really grim, where the attack has been repeated.
	So, you know, the shark will take a chunk and the person will try to get back to safety.
	And then the shark will come back for more.
	There was a case in South Africa at Jeffrey's Bay a few years ago, probably in about the, I think it was like the late 90s or something, where a swimmer was taken by a shark and there were still some bits of him left floating in the water.
	And so a guy went out on a kayak to try to retrieve what was left of this poor bugger.
	And the shark attacked the guy on the kayak because it was, it, you know, didn't want it, didn't want its feed to be taken away.
	Wow.
	Yeah, this, I mean, and this is, James, this is what really riles me up.
	I mean, there's a lot of academics who are, who, who say that, that, you know, when sharks wrap their teeth around a human body, all they're doing is they're, it's exploratory and they're just because they haven't got hands.
	They haven't got hands.
	So they're just saying, oh, what's what's this thing?
	But it's rubbish.
	They, they will eat anything and humans included.
	And it's really grim.
	It's so interesting you say that because even I swallowed, swallowed these.
	In the past, I myself have regurgitated these lines about how, yeah, the thing about sharks is they haven't got arms, they haven't got hands.
	So all they've got is their teeth.
	So when they come in and bite you, they're just, I mean, if they bite you in half, it's kind of of their jaw strength, but they don't really mean to eat you.
	I too repeated these canards.
	And it's only after spending years studying environmentalists and what they're like and what they do, they are paid liars.
	They will just make up their science.
	Just, there's another example, I mean, not so deadly, but we have this out-of-control bird of prey called the red kite.
	And environmentalists will tell you all sorts of lies about the feeding habits of the red kite.
	They're saying that it only feeds on carrion.
	It won't unbalance the ecosystem.
	But it's just not true.
	These things don't just eat carrion.
	And they do get out of control, which actually brings me back to this.
	Why are they protecting?
	What's...
	Ah.
	What's the attraction of the red kite?
	Well, I think what it is, is it's the fetishization of top predators.
	Oh, what a beautiful phrase.
	What a beautiful phrase, James.
	I've been groping for a phrase like that for some years now.
	Because, I mean, they're called apex.
	Great whites are called the apex predators, you know, and there's this, all you have to do is utter those two words.
	And everyone thinks, oh my God, if you tamper with the great whites, then the entire marine ecosystem will collapse.
	It's absolute garbage.
	It's catastrophic.
	How does that work?
	Yeah.
	Anyway, we're the apex predators because we worked out how to make fishing hooks and boats and guns.
	So, you know, until the sharks learn to, you know, you know, have opposable thumbs and work out how to make tools with which to kill other species, then they're not the apex predators we are.
	They've got quite good tools already there.
	They've got these rows and rows of razor-edged teeth.
	I've got a mate who has been chomped, right?
	And he's a good friend of mine.
	We met him through this.
	Like, you know, he's, he's, he, after he got bitten, he kind of went down the rabbit hole to use the Dellingpole colloquialism.
	Yeah.
	And he's never really come back out of it.
	And he's a lovely guy.
	Like until he got chomped, this guy was just an ordinary suburban family guy.
	He loved surfing, had his own business, raising kids, married, living in the suburbs.
	Then he got chomped and his life just went completely upended.
	And he described to me what it was like.
	And it's, you know, I mean, people sort of, they nonchalantly say, oh, sharks don't have hands.
	And so all they can use is their jaws to find out what they're eating.
	You hear what it's like from someone who's had the jaws of a shark wrapped around his leg.
	And it's not that, it's not pretty because what they do then is they've got this muscly body that they use to propel themselves into your flesh.
	It's ghastly.
	And this is what really upsets me, James, is that, you know, what we're talking about here, you know, it's easy to be flippant about it because it makes it easier to discuss.
	But I mean, essentially what we're talking about here is about as horrific as life can get.
	And it's happening to teenagers.
	And I think it's like of those 58 fatalities, I think off the top of my head, I think it's 19 of them were teenagers.
	So they come in, they bite, and then they sort of thrust themselves forward to sort of separate the.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you know, we talk about they don't have hands.
	We have hands.
	We can grab stuff and we can pull it towards us or, you know, manipulate it or whatever.
	All they've got is forward thrust and downward pressure on their jaws.
	That's all they've got.
	And it's brutal.
	And I've heard it from someone who's had it happen to him.
	And it can mess you up for life.
	I've got to add that there are some people.
	There's a guy in Western Australia called Sean Pollard who lost one hand and another half of another limb.
	And he's completely turned his life around.
	He hasn't let it define his life.
	And there's Bethany Hamilton, who's a pro-surfer, she lost an arm.
	And she, you know, these, these are people who very nobly and beautifully let their lives continue as positively as possible.
	I don't know how I would respond.
	I'd probably lose it myself because I kind of like having all my limbs.
	I would find it quite difficult to forgive the sharks.
	I mean, I know as Christians, we're enjoined to forgive, forgive us, forgive our debtors and everything.
	But sharks, I'm not sure they come into that category.
	Well, James, this is where, see, this is where the environmental aspect of it becomes, I think, crosses over with religion.
	Because I think that the reason, like you said, you know, the, was it the reverence of apex predators?
	The fetishization, yeah, yeah.
	The fetishization, yes.
	So great whites are fetishized enormously in Australia.
	And yet, I mean, you know, when kangaroos get out of hand, you know, we'd get rangers out with rifles and they just pop them off in their thousands.
	At the moment, you do.
	How long will that last, do you think?
	Because they breed like rabbits.
	I mean, we'd pop off rabbits as well.
	I get that, but it seems to me that one of the symptoms of environmentalism is an aversion to any form of conservation activity.
	You think about, think about right up until probably about the 1970s, let's say, that's probably the cutoff point.
	So from all civilization, as long as we've been on the earth, what, maybe six and a half thousand years, up until 1970, man took his cue from Psalm 8.
	So the fowls of the air and the fishes of the sea and whatsoever walketh through the paths of the seas.
	These all were part of man's dominion and man could arrange nature in his interests, acting as a kind of steward, obviously.
	So not following Thomas Aquinas, maybe not being needlessly cruel, but managing it, managing his environment.
	So, for example, stopping, reducing the wolf population and shooting any bears that came encroaching on the village or well, I mean, we wiped out wolves in England in about what, I think the last wolf was killed in about 17th century or something.
	But we understood that nature was there to be managed.
	And this concept of management is missing from ecology altogether.
	It's like we have no right.
	We have no right to interfere.
	So this is why I'm wondering where Australia is going.
	I know, for example, that besides sharks, you've got a massive overpopulation problem with your saltwater crocodiles.
	I mean, the populations are nuts.
	Oh, it's crazy.
	But how does Australia benefit?
	How does the world benefit from having that many saltwater crocodiles?
	Well, unless you're making belts and handbags out of it, we don't benefit at all.
	I mean, I looked into this.
	The two are very closely related.
	And so the crocodile problem is mostly focused in the northern half of Australia.
	And the fatality rate is one to two a year from crocs.
	But they are increasingly a dangerous pest and they are protected.
	But then, see, this comes back to what happened in the 70s?
	What was it?
	What was that turning point?
	To me, it was that was the turning point when we pretty much discarded Christianity as our primary moral framework.
	And as you say, you quoted Psalm 8 or Genesis 1.26, as I said earlier, that, you know, that nature is man's dominion and it's our responsibility to manage it.
	So what is it?
	Like, I mean, put aside the fact that we cull kangaroos, they're a pest and they do come into people's houses and stuff.
	So when we cull kangaroos, it's generally in suburban areas just to keep them out of people's yards and off the streets.
	So that's a sort of practical form of management.
	I agree with you that the idea of managing the environment is no longer acceptable, that we have to somehow let nature take its course and whatever the consequences are for humans, then so be it.
	But the other aspect of this, James, is that why crocs and why the red kite and why the great white?
	These are the so-called apex predators.
	They're religious symbols, I think.
	Because what creature symbolizes nature's power?
	If nature is your religion, what would symbolize the power of what you revere?
	It's essentially pagan.
	I mean, what we're returning to is pre-Christian paganism, where we, I mean, especially in Australia, one of the things about Australia, living in Australia, is it's a land of absolute extremes.
	We're the land of sweeping plains and flooding rains.
	You know, it could be flooding one day and drought for 10 years the next.
	And so our reverence for nature comes with this kind of awe about its power.
	Like, you know, what's nature going to impose on us next?
	Is it going to be a flood?
	Is it going to be a drought?
	You know, it's, it's a, it is a land of extremes.
	And so what would symbolize the awesome power, the indomitable power of nature?
	Well, step up the great white.
	But that sort of that awe and terror of nature up until, well, say the 90s would have been channeled into sensible responses.
	What we would, what you and I would, and probably most people watching this would consider sensible responses, which is to say things like shark nets.
	In terms of managing the brush, it would be about cutting down the brushwood and managing all these acacias that you have, the gum trees, because otherwise they'd go up like fireworks down there.
	I mean, they like Roman candles that now you live in whether I think John Howard actually introduced these laws where you cannot burn the brushwood.
	You cannot you cannot.
	You cannot clear your land, even when you own the land, even when your property is jeopardized.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And then they, so they let the fuel gather on the, on the ground, on the, on the, on the ground, in the bush, and the bush becomes a tinderbox and it all goes up and they go, oh, it's climate change.
	Yeah.
	Well, Australians live essentially in hell.
	And the only reason that you've turned it into an approximation of paradise is through human intervention.
	And now your greenies are letting it go to hell again by design.
	They are.
	It's amazing what we've achieved in 237 years or something.
	I just, you know, I'm such a patriotic Australian.
	I just, you know, for most of my life, I thought I'd, you know, won the lottery by being born in this country because it was so prosperous when I was growing up and so free.
	And because I grew up by the beach, I was just had this enormous good luck of growing up being a surfer, which is just how much tell me about that.
	When you go surfing, how much are sharks on your mind?
	Oh, when you're surfing alone, it's hard not to think about sharks because if a shark comes by and it's hungry, you're it, you know.
	So there's this funny, there's this strange phenomenon in Australia now where people prefer to surf in crowds.
	And in a crowd, there's, there's no, you know, there's fewer waves to go around.
	You know, there's only so many people can catch a wave.
	And the more people in the water, the fewer waves you're going to catch.
	So until recently, the ultimate objective of surfers was to find the least crowded beach they could find where there's good waves.
	And now it's like, oh man, there's nobody out.
	Like I was up in Ballina a couple of years ago and just me and a mate were surfing this really fun little wave and Balliner is one of the hotspots in Australia.
	And we had a really good session, but we were both a bit nervous.
	And then we came in and this one guy came in from, came down the beach from the car park and he looked at us getting out of the water and he was so disappointed because there's really fun waves out there, but he just didn't want to paddle out by himself.
	He goes, are you guys coming in?
	I'm going, and we said, yeah, yeah, man, it's really fun out there.
	And he went, oh, no, I don't know if I want to go out because, you know, people have died up there.
	So is it because like when you're out there, when there's two of you, you think, well, there's a 50-50 chance of which works.
	Is that how it goes?
	Yeah, that's right.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I was, I, I walked, I drove past, I was up at Lennox recently and one of the best waves in Australia.
	And there was a fun way I drove past.
	This is a few years ago when the shark problem was quite bad up there.
	I drove past and I saw that the waves were quite good.
	And I was on my way to an appointment and I thought, oh, well, I wouldn't mind having a crack at that.
	But there was no one out.
	And then I went off to this appointment, came back about an hour later.
	And obviously one person or two people had paddled out.
	And then another 20 joined them because everyone just wants to be in a group now.
	Right.
	It's dangerous in the water, James.
	But it must cramp your style as a surfer, as you say, because you need to catch those waves without other people getting in your way.
	Yeah.
	Well, you know, one of the benefits of being born in Australia, apart from the fact that we've got lots of surf here, is being so close to Indonesia, right?
	And Indonesia has the best surf in the world, hands down.
	There's no better country in the world for surf and there's so much of it.
	And it's most of the year round, it's really good quality.
	And most surfers go up to from Australia, hardcore surfers, go up to Indonesia at least once a year.
	And they don't stop and think, oh, hang on a sec, there's not a shark problem up here because the Indonesians know how to manage the environment.
	If there's a shark hanging around, they'll kill it.
	They'll feed knowledge with it, you know?
	So they're not squeamish about killing these predators, whereas we are and we've made our own waters unsafe as a result.
	It's crazy.
	I remember when I went out.
	Do you know David Archibald?
	On my Australian trip, he sort of looked after me in Perth, which was my first port of call in Australia.
	And I spent about a week there.
	And every morning we'd get up and we'd go to City Beach to swim.
	And I remember thinking, you know, like, because there had been a spate of shark attacks before I arrived in Australia and actually quite a few afterwards as well.
	It was when the shark attacks were really taking off.
	And Western Australia at the time was where it was all happening.
	And you'd be looking around and looking at the numbers in the water and thinking, well, it is a numbers game, essentially.
	If a shark comes.
	It's so random too, James.
	You know, that's what plays on your mind is, you know, you're sitting on your board in the water and every attack has been, you know, well, most attacks, when it happens, the victim doesn't see it coming.
	And so you're sitting there thinking, well, is it going to happen or not?
	I mean, the odds are still very low, but it does play on your mind.
	It's so random.
	Yes.
	Do you ever see sharks when you're surfing?
	I've seen one.
	I saw one at a reef offshore in Western Australia many years ago.
	We went out there by a boat.
	My dad had a little dinghy and we went out there, anchored it in the channel and we were surfing on this reef and we're waiting for waves to come through and a wave came through and a shark swam across it.
	I'll hasten to add it wasn't a big one, but it was a shark.
	And, you know, we got a bit nervous, but we just thought it was kind of swimming away from us.
	And we just thought, oh, well, we'll probably safe.
	I mean, we didn't have time to get back to the boat anyway.
	So if the shark wanted to take us, we were there for the taking.
	But I did spend a lot of time in South Australia.
	I spent it in the early 90s.
	I lived in Adelaide for a couple of years.
	And I used to surf alone quite often in fairly remote places.
	And so, I mean, I could probably safely say that I've been in the vicinity of sharks without knowing it.
	Yeah.
	Because they are, you know, they are there.
	And that's one of the arguments that the shark huggers use is that they show footage of, they love to repeat or share footage of sharks swimming in and around swimmers and surfers and not being interested and not bothering them and the swimmers and surfers don't know they're there.
	And so this is their example of how harmonious things can be, you know.
	But, you know, it just takes one to take a nibble and, you know, someone's life is over or completely upended.
	So, you know, I don't, sorry, go on.
	Do you know how close I've been to a great white shark?
	Oh, how close?
	Did you go cage diving?
	Yeah, I did, yeah.
	Well, I went cage diving for the for the for the movie because we went to Port Lincoln.
	But we got skunked.
	We didn't get any sharks.
	So what was it like for you, James?
	tell you what it was like um i went to this place called hunts by in in south africa which is one of the great and there's there's an island called dire island and And between Dyer Island and another island, I think, is what's known as Shark Alley.
	And all these seals come to breed on the island.
	So it's shark bait, shark shark cherry, and the great whites love it.
	And the cage was really, get this.
	The cage is really flimsy.
	The cage is, it was, because I was going with something like called the White Shark Research Institute.
	So it's a kind of tourist thing posing as a research project.
	So they, so they sort of cover their asses.
	So the cage is round so that it doesn't have any nasty edges that might bump the shark.
	And the bars of this cage are so flimsy, it's like you might as well be surrounded by chicken wire.
	How does it show an interest in you?
	So we go out the first day and the sharks don't turn up.
	And the second day, the sea is so choppy that we can't even put down the shark cage.
	So time is running out.
	I think it was the third or the fourth day.
	And I was thinking, all my fear had gone.
	I was thinking, I want to see a bloody shark now.
	I don't care if I die.
	I want to see that shark before I go home because I cannot go home, having told everybody I'm going to go cage diving and come back home and say, yeah, well, they couldn't put down the cage or the sharks wouldn't come up.
	So by the time the shark turned up and it came close enough to me for me to touch it, I was not thinking, whoa, that's scary.
	I was thinking, thank goodness, finally, few, few.
	all my fear had gone um yeah it was it was like we were showing you this didn't you there didn't we Did it want to take a nibble?
	No, it didn't do the thing where it chomps the cage.
	That would have been exciting.
	It just sort of comes to check you out.
	What's amazing is how quickly they appear.
	One minute they're not there and the next minute they're there.
	And you're talking about a really powerful current that would, if you were diving, you'd be swept backwards.
	You couldn't swim against it.
	These sharks can just go, whoosh, out of the murk.
	They're suddenly next to you.
	Yeah.
	So one of the mitigation strategies that they spent millions and millions of dollars trying to develop was this electromagnetic field from a little device that irritates the sensory, there's this sensory gel in the nose of a great white.
	Yeah.
	That is irritated by it.
	And so they spent years researching and experimenting with it off South Africa and off South Australia.
	Yeah.
	And the researchers found that it did deter, these electromagnetic emissions did deter great whites if they were just curious.
	But in attack mode, which is up to, I think, 30 kilometres an hour, there's nothing stopping those things.
	You know, I mean, I think that's why people want to get up close to them in those cages and just sort of, you know, get an understanding of just how powerful these beasts are.
	But when they're in attack mode, that's an entirely different, you know, animal.
	When it's got its mouth open and it's at full speed, nothing is going to stop it.
	I've got to say, when I went shark cage diving off Port Lincoln, I was actually relieved that we didn't get sharks.
	You know, I mean, they didn't even put the cage in the water.
	They were just waiting all day.
	And then we turned around and went home again.
	I was like, great.
	I spent my whole life trying to stay as far away from these stupid things as possible and I've managed to do it again.
	I was just thinking, you say millions have been, I mean, what did all the money go on?
	So much money is spunked on pointless scientific projects, isn't it?
	And they're such technocrats, James.
	It's so typical of these people.
	They think they have these technocratic solutions for problems that sort of defy common sense and proven more practical and crude methods.
	They think that they have to use cutting-edge technology to solve all these problems and it's ridiculous.
	I mean, these shields, these electromagnetic shields, they became a commercial product.
	They were sponsored by the state government in Western Australia.
	There was a $200 rebate.
	You could stick them on the back of your surfboard and they supposedly emitted these electromagnetic charges.
	And they actually, I spoke to people who used them, you know, every time you went underwater and you'd get an electric shock yourself.
	I mean, they were very uncomfortable to use.
	Anyway, the company that made them went broke despite the state government in Western Australia spending enormous amounts of money supporting the research for it and then rebates on the units, the company went broke because, you know, technocrats, man, they just, they don't have a very practical solution to things.
	Everything they do has to be complex and expensive.
	You know, it's like vaccines, like the mRNA vaccines, when all we needed was, was...
	Nothing.
	Nothing.
	That's right.
	Nothing would have been much, much cheaper.
	I'm not a scientist and I'm not involved in vaccinology or public health, but I know that nothing is cheaper than an mRNA kill shot.
	I think so.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Maybe we should have been jabbing the sharks instead.
	Well, yeah, I'm not even sure that even the sharks deserve that.
	Who was the guy, the really annoying guy, the official?
	Obviously, he wasn't going to be quoted on your documentary, but the shark guy.
	He's a real apparatchik of the eco-Nazi system.
	Mate, you know, I'll talk in general terms now.
	These people sometimes look like sharks.
	They have dark eyes, James.
	You know, they look kind of, you know, callous and inhuman to me, the people who make money out of sharks and make careers out of it.
	But they're buying.
	Sorry?
	Do they swim?
	I mean, these.
	I doubt it.
	I doubt it.
	They've got no skin in the game, as we say.
	You know, I mean, these people are very bold in telling us surfers that we have to take all these increased risks.
	But these guys don't go in the water.
	The guy you're referring to is a guy called Barry Bruce.
	And he said on Barry Bruce.
	Yeah, funnily that.
	That's like a faded Australian name, isn't it?
	Barry Bruce.
	Yeah.
	So he went on national television in 2016 when Newcastle beaches were closed in the middle of summer, middle of school holidays, for 10 days straight.
	No one could go in the water because there were all these great white sharks swimming around.
	And so the Channel 9, one of the national broadcasters here, got Barry Bruce on TV and said, you know, what's going on?
	And he said, oh, there's nothing.
	It's all right.
	You know, these are just acting.
	These are sharks doing what they do, you know.
	So no one should be alarmed because this is nature at its finest.
	You know, it means that oceans are healthy, blah, blah, blah.
	But the key thing that he said was that the people of Newcastle need to show these animals respect.
	When I saw that, I just thought, yes, that's exactly that conforms to my theory that these great whites are somehow religious totems.
	You only respect things that are superior to you.
	And if you have to respect great whites, he's essentially saying that they're a better creature than human beings are.
	It's not an uncommon attitude, to be honest.
	Yes.
	Well, we ought to go into the deep conspiracy thing about this.
	Actually, before we do, though, I mean, you give the impression that most Australians are buying this stuff.
	I mean, what percentage of Ausses would you say buy into the idea that, yeah, we should respect the great white shark?
	And when it's in the sea, it has more rights than we do, is what they're saying.
	Well, again, very well put, James.
	I mean, I wish I knew.
	I mean, I don't, I can only have my anecdotal experience and the experience I get on social media.
	I mean, for example, the most recent fatal attack in Sydney was a bloke my age, surfer, you know, very much like me, a guy called Mercury Solarchus, a Greek guy.
	He had a twin brother.
	So sadly, his twin brother's, you know, going to suffering the loss of his twin now for forever.
	And he had to traumatise you, wouldn't it?
	If your twin got got by a shark, you'd be forever thinking.
	Yeah, it's hard to know the depths of grief that that guy has to suffer now.
	I mean, I've spoken to a lot of these people, James.
	The grief is pretty deep.
	Especially if the body's never recovered, because you've got nothing to bury.
	There's no grave to visit.
	There's no closure.
	You know, we've buried our dead since time immemorial.
	And we've done it for a reason.
	It's a feeling of closure and it's a place to visit.
	Well, you think about Antigone and Creon forbidding her to bury her brother's body.
	And this is, you're right.
	It's built into our deep consciousness.
	So to get back to your question, it's a difficult one to answer for a variety of reasons.
	Australia has changed a lot.
	And I think your listeners will be interested to know just how much it's changed.
	You know, the country of Paul Hogan just simply doesn't exist anymore.
	We are not the rugged larican, free-thinking, free-spirited rebels that we once thought we were.
	I'm not sure if that ever existed.
	It might have just been a bit of a caricature that managed to survive for a while.
	But it certainly doesn't exist anymore.
	Demographically, we are an entirely different country now.
	It might alarm you to know that 31% of people living in Australia weren't born here.
	Well, mostly from India and China and Nepal.
	That must have had a cultural impact.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	See, these people don't go to the beach.
	You know, I mean, our beach culture, which was once central to our entire culture, is now, it's just a kind of fringe activity now.
	So that's gone.
	So we've kind of lost that Anglo-Celtic love of the ocean, which was part of the Australian culture, which, you know, began in 1910 when we discovered that we had this natural beauty surrounding our island continent.
	And we started to really embrace it.
	So we don't embrace it quite as much anymore.
	We're a much more urban society.
	A lot of us now live in apartments.
	You know, we don't, the Australia of a freestanding house with a barbecue out the back and a Holden Kingswood in the front yard and three kids, you know, running in and out of the front door, that doesn't exist much either anymore.
	So demographically and socially, we've changed a lot.
	But on top of that, as we've discussed, we've become one of the sort of key new moral frameworks of Australia since we abandoned Christianity is this environmentalism and the need to revere sharks.
	So when, that's right, I was going to say, when Mercury got taken, social media, whenever this happens, social media lights up because photos get shared and some of them are quite graphic and everyone's going, you know, is it, who is it?
	And, you know, is he okay?
	Is he going to survive?
	Anyone else hurt?
	All that sort of stuff.
	And half of the posts underneath, or half of the comments underneath all these posts are people saying, well, he knew the risk.
	You know, he got in the water.
	You know, it serves him right.
	He was in the shark's home.
	You know, these people make me sick, James.
	I mean, no society that has that kind of attitude towards their fellow citizen can survive.
	Yeah, I sensed that when I, when was I in Australia?
	Was it about 10 years ago?
	Oh, it was 2017, I think, was it?
	Oh, don't know.
	I have to look at my diary.
	I forget.
	Time.
	I lose track of time.
	But I definitely felt the sense that Australia was not I'd been expecting it to be based on Gallipoli and the odd angry shot and Rockeadel Dundee.
	And Les Patterson, for that matter.
	And Les Patterson.
	Although it's quite interesting, since going down the rabbit hole, I've realized that this stuff goes much, much deeper than possibly even you would imagine.
	So, okay, so we can understand this in terms of environmentalism, which is that greens fetishize.
	Well, the whole basis of ecology is that it rejects the idea that man is the top species and that the world has been given by God for his dominion and pleasure and stuff.
	It rejects that idea and sees man as just one creature among many in this biosphere.
	So we have no special place in it.
	We might as well, well, the earth has a cancer, the cancer is man, as the club of Rome once put it.
	So you can see it in terms of, okay, so it's the green ideology.
	But of course, as you've hinted, green ideology is essentially paganism, which is essentially the new age.
	It's actually a form of demon worship.
	When it comes down to it, all these alternative religions are basically demon worship.
	They're worshiping the old gods.
	They're worshiping the fallen angels.
	They're worshiping the gods who come under the aegis of Satan stroke Lucifer.
	I couldn't agree more.
	Yeah.
	And the shark is like a satanic creation.
	It is like a satanic.
	The devil could hardly, I mean, had the devil been responsible for creating the animal pieces, the shark would have been.
	The other side of it, James, which is of benefit to our adversaries in this debate is that environmentalism can be used to control the population.
	So once you establish that climate change, and you're the expert on this, once you establish that climate change is a threat, then people live in fear and they can be controlled.
	I mean, one of the things about the shark industry, I call it the shark protection industry in Australia.
	That's essentially what it is.
	I mean, it doesn't, industries generally create stuff.
	These guys are just parasites living off taxpayers' money.
	But it is, for all intents and purposes, it's industry.
	They create false solutions to an unnecessary problem.
	But these people are one of the leading organizations is the CSIRO.
	It leads most of the research into sharks.
	And this organization is very closely connected to the United Nations now.
	It used to be wholly funded by the Australian government.
	It now does collaborations with all sorts of international NGOs, mostly in the field of climate change.
	It's all connected.
	Yeah.
	So it's basically Rockefeller money because the Rockefellers own the UN pretty much and they're behind the whole climate scam.
	I mean, I'm not saying that other zillionaires aren't in it up to the neck too, but that's how it works.
	Yeah, the CSIRO was one of my bé noir when I came on my Australian tour.
	Well, they don't love me.
	And the Australian media, I was reported to your whatever your press complaints.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Because I quoted.
	Congratulations.
	I quoted an Aussie sheep farmer telling me that wind farmers were next to paedophiles.
	Which, of course, is absolutely true.
	What was the complaint about?
	I can't see anything wrong.
	I don't know.
	I would have thought that it was factually accurate.
	So the question I meant to ask you before we move on to before we examine this Satanist thing, but fishermen, what are the fishermen saying?
	Presumably, are the sharks a problem for them?
	Oh, it's extraordinary.
	Like I interviewed four of them from two from Ballina in northern New South Wales, one from Port Lincoln, and one that's in South Australia, and one from another town about 300 kilometers away called Streaky Bay.
	And they, all of them, used to actually used to catch sharks.
	You know, shark fishing used to be an industry in Australia, and it was shut down gradually throughout the 90s.
	And I spoke to, I actually spoke to a former shark fisherman in Ballina.
	He stopped catching sharks in 2015.
	And that's exactly when there was a spate of attacks in Ballina.
	And I'm including there was a fatality among that.
	And he was driven out of business.
	The state government comes in and controls all this stuff.
	There used to be hundreds of shark fishing boats along the south coast of Australia.
	Now there's only two or three.
	And these sharks, they were catching, we call it, we buy flake.
	We call it flake in fish and chip shops.
	You know what it is.
	And they were gummy sharks and school sharks, generally pretty, you know, harmless sharks, but still tasty to eat.
	And they would, because they're hunting sharks, they would catch great whites as bycatch.
	And so the government just came down and came in and shut them all down.
	And those fishermen, they were catching, each of them were catching a couple of hundred a year.
	And so, oh, sorry, there was a couple of hundred boats and they were each catching, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 a year.
	So hundreds of sharks were being caught up until, say, the early to the mid-90s.
	And now they're not being caught at all.
	And so the fishermen are saying, you know, their boats are being trailed by sharks and there's just sharks everywhere.
	You don't want to fall overboard.
	Oh, well, I can tell you a very grim story, actually.
	Oh, no.
	A friend of mine, well, a contact of mine was on a fishing boat in Queensland.
	They were on a seven-week trawling mission.
	And one of the deckhands, this is off Queensland.
	One of the deckhands was a troubled young dude and he committed suicide by jumping overboard.
	And the rest of the crew watched it happen.
	It's awful.
	So yeah, you don't want to fall overboard, James.
	What a way to choose to go.
	Choosing to go that way.
	I mean, dear me.
	Yeah.
	And are the sharks eating the are they reducing the size of the catches?
	Or they must be.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, yeah, there are fishermen saying, you know, I'm losing half my catch to sharks.
	Just, you know, especially sport fishing.
	It's really hard to do sport fishing in Queensland now because, you know, a guy hauls in a, you know, he's got a marlin or a tuna or something like that.
	And the and the sharks just come along, go, oh, there's a free feed and away they go.
	I've had that even in back in the, when would it have been?
	In the 80s.
	I was sports fishing off Lamu in Kenya.
	And even then, I was riding in an amber jack and my amber jack got bitten in half by a shark.
	So if it was like that then, you can just imagine what it's like now.
	So the reason I asked the fisherman question is that it goes to the broader point that environmentalism is about the satanic war on man, on mankind.
	So it stops us.
	They want to immiserate us.
	So they want to deprive us of hobbies like surfing, sports fishing, swimming.
	These are all things, God-given forms of enjoyment, which they want to take away from us.
	But they also want to reduce our ability to feed ourselves.
	So you've got the fishermen being deprived of their catches and their livelihood.
	And then you've got the ultimate expression of this misanthropy, this satanic hatred of God's creation and of man particularly, which is people actually dying.
	They want us to die.
	That's what really underlies all this.
	They hate us.
	I love the fact that you say that the joys of life are God-given.
	I mean, somewhere along the line, we've forgotten that, that it's okay for us to live a happy life.
	You know, these Puritan Haridans who say, I mean, one of them on the beachfront at Manly said to me, you know, I said, you know, do you think too many people have been killed in the water, you know, by sharks?
	And he immediately said, well, maybe we shouldn't be swimming.
	I'm like, why wouldn't you?
	You live in a beautiful country.
	It's a beautiful coastline.
	The water is unreal.
	It's refreshing.
	There's a lot of therapeutic benefits or qualities about salt water that I think are, you know, probably scientifically explain it, but I can testify to it.
	And all these people who think that sharks need to thrive off our beaches and that we need to pay the price, they're so casually dismissing the idea that life should be enjoyable.
	And to me, man, there's nothing more enjoyable than surfing.
	I don't think there's any, you know, I consider myself extremely blessed to have grown up a surfer because it's just so amazing.
	You look like it's done you good.
	It looks like you've just trying to, I was just trying to do something.
	Enterpass one.
	Oh.
	No, I don't know if I can find it.
	You look quite well in it.
	I mean, I might, because I've tried surfing, like learning to surf, and it's very, very physical.
	It loses the balance and the core strength it uses.
	You must be pretty pretty hench.
	You have to be pretty fit.
	I actually, I lived in London for a couple of years in the mid 80s.
	And until then, I'd surfed all my life.
	And I just wanted to get away from sort of, you know, the beach thing for a while.
	And I lived in London.
	And then a friend of mine was passing through London.
	He'd just been surfing.
	He sold me his surfboard.
	And I went down to Morocco and took this board with me and went surfing in Morocco.
	And for the first time in my life, I think I was about, I don't know, I would have been about 23, 24.
	I realized you actually had to be fit to surf because I just surfed all my life and I wasn't fit enough for it.
	I had to get back into shape.
	So yeah, you have to be pretty fit.
	Have to learn it when you're young.
	The thing about surfing is that it actually looks easy and it's not, you know, you look like you're just sort of standing on this little flimsy little disc and you lean one way and it goes in that direction.
	You lean that way and it goes in that direction.
	It's not that simple at all.
	One of the most important skills in surfing is just being able to read what the wave is going to do and how will you respond when the wave does what you know it'll do next.
	And it's all you know, it's all finely tuned after decades and decades.
	But yeah, I do feel you're making me very envious, Fred.
	I think surfing is.
	Do you get the same thing from fox hunting?
	I mean, it's a very zen thing.
	Yeah.
	I tell you, I tell you what, what the two the two sports have in common.
	You are living totally in the moment for as long as it goes on.
	It's just absolutely, you become like a like a wild animal in that you're living on your nerves, on your instincts, because you've got to be.
	I mean, one second's lapse of conversation and you could be dead.
	Same with surfing.
	Yes, exactly.
	And it's also a freedom of movement.
	Like if you're, you know, you're going, it's all sort of multi-directional movement.
	You can be going in any direction to respond to whatever happens.
	You know, like you're sitting in the water and you see a wave come and, you know, you're paddling it.
	You've got to get in exactly the right position to catch the wave and then make the most out of it when it when it happens.
	And, you know, like you say, one mistake, especially in places like Indonesia, where you're surfing over sharp coral, you know, a long way from a hospital, if anything bad goes wrong, yeah, it can get dangerous, but it's thrilling.
	Yeah.
	I've certainly been battered by my brief experiences with surfing, I've been battered by waves.
	And it's when you just get roiled and on the rocks and the you don't know where it's going to end.
	I tell you one thing about being a surfer, one of the real, I don't know, it's almost a primal joy you get is how comfortable you become in the water, even when it's dangerous.
	Like I can swim into really dangerous waters and be very comfortable knowing how to avoid getting completely, you know, pummeled by big waves, you know, knowing where to dive under and how to use the currents to your advantage and all that sort of stuff and read the currents.
	Most people can't even see a rip at a beach, you know, like that happens at Bondi all the time.
	A rip will form, a set of waves will come through and a rip will form and all these people get washed out.
	And, you know, it's because they don't, they can't read the water.
	And it's, it's just one of the thrills of being a surfer is being so comfortable in danger conditions.
	You've become like a shark.
	It's your environment.
	The people who say that you shouldn't be there are talking nonsense.
	You've developed the skills to survive like a shark in this environment.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	It's my prerogative to kill them.
	I was going to mention, I don't know enough about, this is what I was trying to look up from my Proton Mail account, which I can't open right now.
	But before he died, a high-level Australian Satanist described the successes that the forces of darkness have had in Australia.
	There seems to be a particularly strong satanic element in Australian society.
	Your politicians, a lot of the kind of High-level people sexually abusing women and participating in satanic rituals and stuff.
	Are you aware of all this?
	Well, there's been a bit of gossip about Gough Whitlam lately.
	He had a pretty shady background.
	And he was like Gough Whitlam was the turning point for sort of modern Australia.
	He ended the Conservative.
	I think Conservatives were in government federally in Australia for over 20 years, I think it was, mostly under Menzies.
	And Gough Whitlam swept into power in 1972.
	And it was just this wave of liberalism just swept over the country.
	I was just a kid at the time, but it was, you know, the suburbs were sort of just became awash with this new feeling of liberalism.
	And it's starting to become, I'm hearing rumors, persistent rumors, that Gough Whitlam wasn't quite as saintly as people thought he was.
	There was a pretty dodgy side to it.
	I think let's not forget when we sort of view politics through our awake eyes.
	We realize that everything was actually, it might seem accidental, but everything is planned.
	So, for example, I think it's quite significant that John Howard could pose as a conservative, fiscal conservative, while allowing on his watch, kind of under the shark net, as it were, all this green, this green legislation to, or rather, even capitulation to the green movement.
	This would all have been part of the plan.
	It wasn't a kind of act, it wasn't that John Howard took his eye off the ball.
	That would be the explanation for sort of red meat conservatives in Australia that, yeah, he took his eye off the ball.
	He didn't realize what a threat this woke stuff was.
	I'm sure he knew exactly.
	He would have been following orders being given at a supranational level by organisations like the Club of Rome.
	None of this stuff is accidental.
	That's the thing.
	Nothing.
	That's the key word, James.
	That's the key word.
	It's not accidental that sharks are being protected in Australia when beach culture is so central to our happiness.
	You know, it's not accidental that children in kindergartens are being told to hate themselves and revere the Indigenous culture that supposedly is superior to the Western one that tamed this continent.
	You know, none of these things are accidents.
	And you're right.
	John Howard introduced the first, it was some sort of carbon quota or something.
	But he definitely did introduce the first legislative sort of acknowledgement of our responsibility to reduce carbon emissions.
	And that has been absolute bollocks right from the start.
	So, you know, why would a conservative do that?
	I mean, the other thing is, James, that we live under the illusion that we are in a democratic country.
	It's nothing of a kind.
	No important issues are raised during elections in Australia.
	And we only have one party anyway.
	Both sides of politics, just like in Britain, are the same, two sides of the same coin.
	Yes, exactly.
	How, by the way, do you, you've put your film.
	Tell us about where we can see your film.
	Oh, it's on YouTube.
	Yeah.
	And my account is Fred Paul123.
	So if people look for me on YouTube, the title of the film is called The Heart of Sharkness.
	And that's okay.
	That's very clever, James.
	But someone has actually beaten me to it.
	The Shark NATO people have got a documentary up called Something to Do with Sharkness as well.
	So someone beat me to the pun.
	So if you search for sharkness on YouTube, you'll find it there somewhere.
	But if you look for Fred Paul 123, you'll find me there too.
	But how do you make money out of this?
	Oh, James, I don't.
	I mean, you know what it's like.
	Just like you, James, I spent my, well, you spent some time in the media.
	I spent most of my career in the mainstream media.
	Oh, no, I did as well.
	Most of my career.
	Like you, we're both old.
	Yep, we're both awake.
	You still dabble in the mainstream media, don't you?
	You still dabble to please my, to please certain members of my family who like me to think that I'm still kind of engaging with the world of normality.
	But that's about it.
	Well, I'm the same.
	I'm the same.
	I mean, every now and again, I get a call from a mainstream newspaper or something and say, do you want to write a piece about sharks?
	I go, yeah, because I'm the guy, right?
	I'm the guy who lies about shark.
	But I'm not making money, James.
	We know what it's like.
	This movie has cost me, it's cost me tens of thousands of dollars.
	Like, it's probably cost me about 30, 40 grand to make.
	And if I make half of that back, I'll be lucky.
	But it's a passion project.
	I really care deeply about this issue because I've met the victims of it and it's unnecessary and it's evil.
	It's pure evil what's happening.
	It's totally unnecessary, all this carnage and trauma.
	So yeah, I'm not making money out of it, James.
	I mean, I'm not even in your league.
	I mean, you've got 10 times more followers than me.
	Yeah.
	They limit you, though.
	A substack is, it's got these algorithms where for every new paid subscriber you get, they take another one off.
	It's bizarre.
	Everyone's reporting this.
	They're making you platter.
	So all the kind of, all the platforms that people like us might use are controlled by the intelligence services.
	They'll allow you so much of a living, but nothing more.
	Sort of like penury living.
	So have you got a, you've got a website that we can mention?
	Yes, I actually got your website guy to build me a website.
	Oh, well done.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I saw he'd built your website, which I really like.
	And he's a designer as well as a developer.
	Andrew, yes.
	Big shout out for Andrew.
	He doesn't get any shout outs.
	Andrew Hero.
	Lovely bloke.
	Yeah, and he's on side.
	So he's a designer, he's a developer, and he's on site.
	I thought, oh, wow, he's just ticked all the boxes.
	So I got him to build a website.
	It's fredpaul.com.
	And he's designed it beautifully.
	And I hope my personal biographies up there.
	So, yeah.
	I hope people can bung a few Australian dollars your way to help support you.
	Where is Gina on this?
	Do you think Gina is pro-shark or anti-shark?
	I think she's pragmatic enough to be anti-shark.
	She's a very pragmatic person.
	So I imagine she'd be, you know, why are these things swimming off our beaches?
	Yeah.
	She's pragmatic.
	I wish she'd put more of her money into causes like us.
	Particularly you.
	I mean, given that you live in the same country.
	Yes, yes.
	Well, I hope she's watching.
	Maybe you've got the Arnold Windows doing well for you.
	It's lovely meeting you out.
	Thank you for that dinner you gave me when I was last there.
	She shouted me a few dinners too, just quietly.
	So I am.
	Yeah, she's all right.
	Yeah.
	Anyway, mate, it's so good talking to you.
	I'm going to go and have a coffee and a fag now.
	You're probably going to get better.
	What time is it there?
	Oh, it's 20 to 10.
	It's time for another Negroni and off to bed, I think.
	Are you going to have an is that is that because Bella's got the Italian influence?
	You have a Negroni?
	Yeah, yeah, Bella's actually a whiskey lover, you know, because she spent many years in Scotland.
	So, yeah, we'd love a good single malt tipp at the end of the day.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	That's interesting.
	But you're going to have a Negroni tonight.
	Yeah, yeah, I love a Negroni.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm not a beer drinker anymore, James.
	Those days are over.
	I've drank.
	I drunk enough beer to kill 10 men.
	I bet you have.
	I bet you have.
	No, you're right.
	I think there comes a point, actually, in a man's life when he realizes that you're basically drinking sugar and yeast.
	Oh, yeah.
	Which is just going to look not good for your system.
	No, no, it's terrible.
	Only young men can, only young men can do it.
	Yeah, no.
	Whiskey and negroni is for me, mate.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I've started drinking sherry.
	Oh, how good is sherry?
	It's wonderful.
	Hey, you mentioned fags, too.
	I took up smoking very deliberately.
	Yes.
	Because I wrote the book about, did you ever meet Bill Leake?
	I'm not sure.
	Did you meet him?
	The cartoonist.
	I don't think I ever did.
	Yeah, you should have.
	You would have got on famously with him.
	He was my best mate.
	And he died in 2017.
	And he was virtually driven to his grave by the forces of wokeness because he dared to speak freely as a cartoonist.
	Anyway, I wrote his biography between probably around 2018 to about 2020.
	And I found because when you write a book, you spend a lot of time alone and it can get a bit disconcerting.
	And you can get stuck with writers' block.
	And so I just found that going to the window, smoking a durry, it kind of broke the block and it stimulated.
	Nicotine is a stimulant.
	A durry.
	A darry.
	Yeah.
	How do you spell that?
	D-U-R-R-I-E.
	Yeah.
	Great.
	Not that.
	I'm going to have a darry now.
	A durry's.
	Can you have, are they roll-ups or ready-mades?
	Well, I only smoke roll-ups.
	Do you smoke roll-ups?
	I'm only roll-ups.
	Yeah.
	And I smoke, I use organic tobacco.
	Who knows what's in those things?
	They taste terrible.
	I think.
	Although I quite like Russian cigarettes.
	Oh, do you?
	Yeah, you've just been to Moscow.
	Yeah, well, I liked the, I did rather like the cherry flavor and vanilla flavor.
	I just think everything Russian is better.
	In Indonesia, they've got clove cigarettes.
	Yes, I had one the other day and they're really good.
	How's the taste?
	The flavor that stays on your lips?
	No, I didn't get that.
	Oh, yeah.
	I just got another one.
	How unhealthy they are, though, because I don't think there's much nicotine in them, but they taste wonderful.
	But cloves are healthy, they're herbs, aren't they?
	Yeah, yeah, why not?
	I'm with you, though.
	I think that cigarettes are probably good for you.
	I think if they tell you they're bad for you, they're good for you.
	The only bad thing in cigarettes is the ingredients they put to make them burn more and the cancer ingredients that they put in to kill you.
	Yeah.
	Enjoy your dirty.
	Enjoy your dirty, James.
	I will enjoy my dairy.
	So it only remains to say thank you, dear viewers and listeners.
	Yeah, it's probably true what I said about Substack and probably all the platforms, but I know that don't see that as a sign that you should just give up.
	Try and get through the get under the shark net and attack me through the medium of sponsoring me on Substack.
	Buy me a coffee.
	That still works.
	Go to my website, jamesdellingpole.
	I keep forgetting the bloody.
	Let's have a look.
	JamesDellingpole.co.uk, is it?
	It is.
	Go to my website, jamesdellingpole.co.uk.
	You might even be able to find a way of supporting me there.
	Come to my events, buy me a coffee, support me on Patreon if you want.
	But just keep listening mainly and tell everyone about how lovely my podcasts are.
	Thank you again, Fred Paul.
	Mate, it's so good to speak to you.
	Good to see Bella briefly.
	And come again soon if I don't come to us.
	Oh, we're going to catch up again, mate.
	We'll be there soon.
	It's great to see you.
	Off for my dairy.
	See you later, James.
	Later.
	None of us see you first.

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