Tobias Nuttall is the co-host of the Waking World podcast. He talks to James about his stint with Ordo Templi Orientis, how to pronounce Aleister Crowley and who REALLY runs the worldhttps://www.youtube.com/wakingworld
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Welcome to the DellingPod with me, James Dellingpole.
And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest.
But before we meet him, a quick word from one of our sponsors.
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I'd definitely give the silver a go.
I've got gold, but I like silver because silver has the potential to go much, much higher.
If you're of a sort of more adventurous disposition, which I am.
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Welcome to the Delling Pod, Toby Nuttall.
Toby, I have to say, I think you are one of the more splendid-looking guests that I've had.
I didn't know what you looked like.
And looking at your Jason King moustache...
Is it a Jason King moustache?
I was thinking of the chap that died in The Village People, but I'm more flattered by your comparison here.
I never watched an episode of Jason King.
Nor did I. I'm a Luddite, completely.
But I'm sure he looks better than the chap from The Village People.
But you know who he is?
Not at all.
Not at all.
Okay. There was a series in the 19...
Late 60s, I think, called Department S, or possibly in the early 70s.
And Jason King had a moustache like yours.
And the other trivia fact I know about him is that he was played by an actor called Peter Wingard.
That was his stage name, W-Y-N-G-A-R-D-E, which sounds very exotic.
I like that.
He must have resembled a sort of Celtic woed raider with the upper lip unchonged.
Peter Wingard, he sounds very dashing.
His real name was Cyril Lovis Goldbart.
Sorry. I do like that.
I don't know where from the recesses of my mind that came, but yeah, trivia fact.
And his agent made him change it.
Can you think why?
I mean...
Cyril Goldbart.
Well, it really rubbed off here.
At least, you know, 50 years later, the listeners to this podcast will be echoing his name.
Now, Toby, are you in Perth at the moment?
Indeed I am.
Indeed I am.
For the last month I've returned to the western part of the Antipodes.
Do you know what?
Is this a bad thing?
I really liked Perth.
I like its time zone.
I find it more convenient than the...
The more eastern provinces of your continent.
And I like the fact that every day you go swimming could be your last, you know, on City Beach.
We have something similar to the sort of Stuka sound in the Battle of Britain when the sharks come in and you can witness the choppers go out with their marksman.
It really is quite a sight, you know.
Do they still, because they're so incredibly eco-Nazi now, aren't they?
They probably fire kind of vitamin shots at the sharks rather than bullets.
Well, I can share an interesting story.
Many years ago, I was dating this delightful...
A lady at university, and she was one of these land rights for gay whales times.
And, of course, to maintain the relationship, one did have to put on the airs and graces.
And I remember one morning we woke up, and she was renting a coastal villa, and there was this kind of awful, awful sound coming from the kitchen.
And, you know, she was making a cup of tea for the two of us.
It was very nice, very traditional.
And she's like, God, they're doing it again.
I said, what are they doing?
She goes, they're murdering the sharks.
And I thought, let's go watch it.
But I had to really kind of rein in my excitement there.
I thought, you know.
Like you wrote in a wonderful Spectator article, nature's red in tooth and claw, but you can't say that here.
No, and it is a tragedy, isn't it, that often it's the fit birds, as one might say, that are really into this eco-animal rights shit.
Exactly, man.
It's all the butch ones are down at the Kwinana racetrack, you know, they've got more tattoos than the boys, so, you know, you've got to learn to bridge both camps.
I'm not, I don't think it's at all sexist or unreasonable of me to say.
I mean, obviously I'm very happily married and stuff, but if I were a young man and I were to meet a woman who was all animal rights and stuff, however attractive she might be, I would very much consider her not good wife material.
Well, it's interesting what you raise, because it gets piggybacked with a series of other ideologies.
That's what I find.
It's like, we all have drawbacks, but you can be damn certain that if that's, you know, one of the strings to their bow, there's going to be a lot of others going on there, you know, that aren't too savoury.
So I completely agree with you there.
Yeah, no, really, really, you wouldn't.
I can't.
And I think it's so important.
I mean, I feel this more so now that I'm...
A Christian, and I believe in the family and the sanctity of marriage and stuff.
Being a wife is a really, really, really important job.
And it requires a bigger skill set than even men are required to have.
You're basically the rock of the...
I mean, the husband goes out and sort of kills stuff and, you know...
Whatever, whatever husbands are meant to do.
Supposed to bring home the bacon, I guess.
But imagine if you had a...
Anyway. So, I came upon you, Toby.
I was stuck in the traffic jam.
In fact, I'll tell you the story very briefly.
It's quite boring, but it's not totally boring.
I want to know how you found Dale and I. Okay.
So, what happened was...
My wife was ill, and I went off to our fitness trainer that we go to at the weekend on my own, because she wasn't well enough to.
And as I was driving back, I saw that there was a big build-up of traffic, and I thought, I know what I'll do.
I will hop onto the motorway.
And I will come off at the sneaky route.
There's a service station called Watford Gap, and it's only well known because snobby peoples divide England into north of the Watford Gap and south of the Watford Gap, and north of the Watford Gap are northerners and south of southerners.
Anyway, there used to be this cunning thing where even though there wasn't an official exit on the Watford Gap services, You could drive through the lorry park and sneak out illegally on a brilliant way that took me closer to home than the other exits, the official exit.
So I thought, I'll be really clever.
I'll get onto the motorway and I'll surprise and delight the wife.
I'll be back for coffee and a fag in record time.
And this journey should take no more than half an hour.
And I was on the motorway.
The motorway was...
I got onto it and I realised it was nose-to-tail traffic.
And when I tried to get off it on the Watford Gap trick, I discovered that they blocked it off.
So I had to get back on the motorway.
It took me about two hours to get home when it should have taken me an hour and a half.
And the only consolation on this journey of hell, when probably my wife thought I'd gone off to have an affair, because, you know, it was a half-hour journey and I was taking two hours.
The only consolation was listening to your podcast that you did with Dale, your sparring partner, about your adventures meeting a member of the Illuminati.
Yes, yes.
Now, it was a really interesting podcast.
I moved.
No, well, but it was great.
And so I don't know...
I don't know how obscure you are or how well-known you are in Australia.
I mean, what's the deal with your podcast?
Is it big?
We're extraordinarily obscure types, you know, and that's why I'm very moved, because we're both familiar with The Delling Pod.
Dale is the chap who's more of a techie than I am.
If I were the one in charge of broadcasting, we'd still just be having chats around the coffee table when we first met.
So it's something where he's kind of grown it.
And as a result of making a connection because of our mutual stance on the COVID situation and all the nonsense that played out during that.
I came across lovely Dale who decided to say, look, let's maybe broadcast some of our conversations.
You know, you've had association to things like Audio Templar Orientis.
We're going to talk about that.
Absolutely, man.
That'd be fantastic.
Yes. I'm looking very forward to it.
I have some of my old manuals sitting there.
Have you got any of your cloaks?
Do you want to wear your robes?
I was thinking that, you know, the kind of Jay-Z, you know, hands going up.
Is it black with a red silk lining?
Interesting that you should say that there was a group that supplied them very similar to the way in which the Freemasons had their suppliers.
But the only time I remember wearing robes to rituals, they were somewhat similar to what you might wear to communion if you're a choir boy.
So, no, it was actually quite an interesting use of what you might call Rosicrucian iconography that borrows from some of that Knights Templar imagery.
But with respect to the episode that you were listening to about the chap associated with what we might term the Illuminati, I mean, you know, as you would know, that's more of a common term today to refer to a hidden hand.
I mean, the actual Illuminati.
Probably existed from 1776 through to the middle part of the 1780s as a creation of Adam Weishaupt that infiltrated various Masonic lodges.
But the term itself has come to denote, I guess, you know, the puppeteers.
And this particular fellow in that particular episode, where I did my best to obscure some of the family associations, cutting to the chase, his brother had married into, I guess, the Mountbatten line.
And he himself appears in various peerages.
So his brother had married a Mountbatten.
A Natchbull, to be precise.
Yes, so I know the Natchbulls.
I've met Natchbulls at parties.
In fact, I met the Natchbull who wasn't blown up on the boat when Mountbatten was assassinated.
Yes. Probably not.
The excuse they used was it was the INLA, although it's rumoured to be the intelligence services, because he was getting just out of hand, yeah?
You're on the money there, man.
And it's very interesting you should say that, because I can share another personal anecdote.
You see, there are a lot of mix in Perth, and the boarding school I was at, you came across some of the well-to-do types.
I remember one of my old friends who was...
Descended from a sort of Trinity College Dublin background.
He was kind of this Irish girl.
And after one too many drinks, she informed me that her now deceased father was the getaway driver at the death of, you know, the last Viceroy of India.
And I found that extraordinary.
And I remember saying, you know, you should probably keep those cars close to your heart.
They're probably still after them.
And, you know, I put that back at the back of my mind from years ago, and then I came across this associate, and over the course of our conversations, he said, no, it's absolutely true that he was knocked off, in fact, by British intelligence because he was becoming far too out of hand for a variety of reasons.
One was his paedophilia, and the other was the fact that apparently in this...
That happens a lot in the context of these bloodliner families.
There was a bit of muscling going on from, you know, what you might refer to as the old Battenberg line interfering a bit too much with the Saxe-Coburg Gothers and who was at the helm.
That's really interesting.
What I loved about that particular podcast was that I think it's about...
I mean, I've been down this rabbit hole for the last four years, tunnelling frantically, like my life depended on it, like I'm trying to escape from Stalag Luft.
Which one was it, 19?
I forget which one it was.
I don't know, it was a 12 where they shot them all.
One of them was better than the other.
Was it 12?
It's all the tip of my tongue there.
I know I was going over some of the Nuremberg trial notes at Kaltenbrunner.
It was 12 or 19. So the war buffs and I going, it was...
No, they're shouting out the number.
I'm not going to look it up because we might ruin our flow.
So I...
It's the question we all want to ask or want answered.
Who are these people?
What's the hierarchy?
Who's in charge?
Who's calling the shots?
Is it the Jews?
Is it the Catholic ones?
The Jesuits?
The Jesuits.
Is it a sort of combination of kind of mafia families, rival mafia families, or whatever?
Is it the black nobility?
Who are the black nobility anyway?
And it seems to be a mishmash of the lot.
Indeed. Indeed.
You're quite on the money there, James.
And I proceed with a degree of epistemic humility here.
So everything that I sort of come across here, as I'm sure you've found on your own journeys, you're kind of going in an area of kind of grey certainty, if you will.
And what...
Dale and myself, I guess, with our little humble podcast somewhat concluded, although always open to new information, new interpretations, is that it's a combination of definitely Semitic bloodlines, definitely what would you call the black nobility European bloodlines, and definitely a sort of papal elitism of which the Jesuits with their black Pope Superior General seem to play a huge role.
For the sake of distilling it down to two very good sources that I could recommend for your listeners out there, and what I intend to sort of riff off, and which I did run by this scion of an elite family.
Oh, did you, right?
Yes, yes.
I think that's what it offers.
When you meet people in there, you can say, look, I've got all of this.
What have you come across?
And he said, first and foremost...
And this is the one that's been really good.
Dr. John Coleman, ex-intelligence officer, born 1935, in his book, The Conspirators' Hierarchy, The Committee of 300.
Now, that's one that you often see that in some of those...
Global domination pyramids, there is the often repeated group, the Committee of 300, it sits beneath, you know, Council of Nine, which sits beneath, you know, the demiurge itself.
People get very creative with those pyramids.
What I like about Dr. John Coleman's writing is that, you know, he was an ex-intelligence officer who had postings throughout...
Africa in particular, the end of empire.
So he could see what was really going on with the machinations among nouveau colonialism, basically like, let's pull the troops out and depopulate the people.
But he also, in that text, one of the big claims that he made was that The Black Nobility, Bloodlines, which for people out there who are unfamiliar with that, that refers to a group, they're usually commonly referred to as the Gelfs, or they grow out of the House of Wealth.
And they are somewhat, you know, wholly Roman Empire-related elector positions that supported the papacy while at the same time advancing their own ends as they grew out of Germany and northern Italy into all.
All of the other areas.
They also owe some of their right to rule to being related to Charlemagne, who I guess is also equally significant to the French control system.
If you want to run with some of David Icke's research, and this is very interesting, and this I did run by the bloodliner and he confirmed it, you could even trace those lines back to Babylon.
And that's something in my personal excavations in history.
I can't be 100% certain of, but you can definitely trace some of those lines back to a sort of Phoenician, suffering people.
Before we go too far down that line, the other text which I'd recommend to people, which initially I wasn't too sure of until I realized the author had been absolutely pilloried, which I thought was a sure sign the guy was onto something, is Fritz Springmeier's Bloodlines of the Illuminati.
That's really worthwhile reading.
He does love his genealogies, doesn't he?
Yes, yes, because they're essential.
As you would, I suppose, if you were writing about bloodlines.
Exactly, exactly.
Because the thing that became apparent to me, certainly in the context of my conversations and, you know, friendship that I cultivated over east with this fellow and in my own research, is that one doesn't get anywhere in this world.
And this is a bitter pill to swallow for us, you know, peons out there, without having a relation, an actual genetic relationship to these lions.
Yes. That does seem to be the case.
And do you know what?
That was the kind of...
This was one of my eureka moments where I always used to wonder when I was at Oxford trying to kind of...
I thought, well, you know, I can talk like a reasonably posh person.
I can drink wine quite well.
I can wear tweed.
But there was something missing.
And the English upper classes, they can be absolutely delightfully charming.
Especially if you can talk things like fox hunting with them.
And they make you feel like you're one of them.
But there is a point beyond which you cannot go.
And I think this would tie in with that, wouldn't it?
Absolutely. They know.
They can sniff it.
Yes. They're probably with their reptilian eyes.
They can probably sense.
They can sniff.
That you've not got the right rhesus negative or whatever it is.
Exactly. And correct me if I'm wrong, James, you're a Christchurch man.
Yeah. So that's the elite college there, really, in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is.
It was weird.
Yeah. Gottfried von Bismarck was in Christchurch when I was there.
His name popped up with this chap that I knew as a...
He was a member of the Piers Gaveston Society, right, where he was doing all sorts of stuff.
Yeah, you see, that's an interesting one.
So, I was...
I didn't get into the Buller, and I was quite disappointed not to have gone to the Piers Gaveston, which, of course, was named after the favourite of Edward II, Edward II's catamide.
And it was famed for its debauchery.
And I thought, well, I'd quite like a bit of debauchery.
But actually, I think had I gone, I would have felt very, very embarrassed.
Because I think it's mainly sort of gay rather than heterosexual, or at least it's both.
Sodom is the rule of the day.
Yeah, and sort of by that stage in my life, you know, I dabble a bit in prep school because folk demure.
But I wasn't really interested in boys.
By that stage.
Drugs, yes, and I think there were probably drugs at these things.
But this is a thing I've noticed about the upper classes, that more than a few of them seem to prefer buggery to heterosexual sex.
It seems to be a thing.
I mean, I've talked to people...
About Winston Churchill, for example.
Winston Churchill, during the war, used to fly off to Tangier to have sex with Arab boys.
Mountbatten, you've mentioned.
I remember a friend of mine from those circles, I think he was in the Pierce-Gaveston.
Although he's married and stuff and has got children, In front of my, within my son's earshot about how much he really wanted cock and he missed cock.
Talking about sort of nostalgie de la bouille.
Damn good bugger, I guess.
Yeah, exactly.
And I, maybe I'm weird that way.
Maybe this is what cuts me out from membership of that elite.
I don't hunger for cock.
I don't quite like.
I quite like girls.
I like the idea of pretending to be gay, but actually, you know, when push comes to shove, I don't mind girls that look a bit like boys.
Or haircuts and eyes.
Yeah, short haircuts, but I really like the equipment to be lady equipment, not blokes tadger.
Anyway, so that's a long digression.
Let's go back to the much more interesting, because I think it really is.
This is absolute.
I've hit a very rich seam here with you, Toby.
It's an honour.
Just remind us, just take us back, give us a sort of briefish account of your encounter with this chap, how you discovered him and what the deal was.
Well, it was quite interesting.
You see, Dale and I, we'd been conducting our little broadcasting experiment for nearly a year.
And, you know, we'd had some interesting interactions with people.
We'd started to interview some types.
And I'd had a bit of a falling out with a family member of mine who's a doctor.
And as a kind of peace offering, he said to me, look, I've met this chap.
In fact, one of my colleagues is looking after him.
You know, he's quite interesting.
I think you'd get along really well with him.
And he claims to have, you know, some friends among the Rothschilds and has an associate with Mountbatten.
And I'm sitting there, I'm looking at this guy and I'm like, are you...
Absolutely pulling my chain with this one, man.
Like in Australia, in a really, really obscure part of northern New South Wales, full of hippies, demented drug burnouts and other types.
Very interesting people, don't get me wrong.
And then I thought, well, I've got fuck all going on right now.
I'd be down for an interesting conversation, you know?
I mean, this guy, I'm...
You know, nine-tenths certain is absolutely diluted, but I'm always down for meeting a character.
So I thought, all right, I'll go for the drive.
And we hopped in a four-wheel drive and went to this very obscure part of this volcanic caldera that at the time Dale and I were residing in, which kind of became the stronghold for non-compliant people among the COVID pandemic.
Is it where we all flee to when it kicks off again?
In fact, that's where we all go.
That's where we all go, man.
It's in the sight of this delightful, you know, old volcano.
Exactly. As long as you believe in a creator, it's very Masonic like that, you're welcome.
And so I went along for this journey and I arrived at this house.
And the house was owned by another doctor who was looking after this chap.
He'd been through dreadful...
A series of experiences, and I'd heard we'd had a terrible flood there that had destroyed a lot, and some of his land holdings there had been destroyed, and, you know, it wasn't in good condition.
And so I've arrived there thinking, okay, you know, here we go, another character.
And immediately this chap came out, you know, wearing a Savile Row suit, immensely, you know, well-polished shoes and a cane.
And it's all in the middle of the Australian bush and with the most impeccable Queen's English, you know, welcomed us into his home.
And I thought, God, he's a bloody good actor.
But I walked in there and we immediately hit it off.
And what was great was that he didn't really, you know, beat about the bush.
He got down to brass tacks right away and asked me if I was familiar with the Jesuit oath.
I said, what, the one, you know, from the counter-reformation that says, you know, using the poignard and the steel ball and the poison cup, I'll go against everyone, really?
And he said, yes, yes, that.
And he said, because that's where our story's going to begin as a real power player.
So I sat down and I listened, absolutely enwrapped with what he had to say.
And after a couple of hours of this, you know, taking tea and having smoke, he proceeded to Casually, pull out a family photograph of a wedding from Halloween 1987 that had in it at the time Prince Charles, obviously Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, a series of other characters, about two or three Rothschilds.
And, you know, the extended Mountbatten family.
And there he was.
And I thought, oh, my Lord, either you're very good at Photoshop or I've hit the jackpot with this one.
And that's really how the friendship began.
So I think what I'll do, because yours was a long podcast and it was very involved, and I don't really want to kind of rehearse it.
Again, because people should go and listen to this, but what I want to do is sort of fill it out, your take-homes from this.
So I know that this chap was sexually abused, as they all seem to be.
Was that the impression you got, that this is the deal, that they all get...
The impression that I got was that his experiences were absolutely vile at Ampleforth College, which is, of course, the Catholic Eton.
And that began the discussion of how English Catholics and various other Catholic lines, particularly sort of the lapsed nobility from Poland, there's a lot of figures who moved there after the war, are still movers and shakers behind the scenes.
And I'd always been of the opinion, you know, attending an Anglican school myself, that it was a C of E scene, but it was like, no, no, no.
And one of the other takeaways that I found was that a lot of these Catholic English bloodlines, when you trace them back a few generations, come from Italy.
And when you trace them back a little bit further, they're actually Converso Jews from...
Spain sometimes, other areas, and that's how they became Catholic.
So this is where we really got into the bloodline elements here, and that's when he started meandering down the path of, and then you go back further, and you go back further, and you really discover these figures are movers and shakers through a lot of history.
Right. So you're saying that the Catholics hold more sway than the Church of England people?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And that was a really difficult pill for me to swallow because I'd always thought, you know, going back to King Henry VIII...
It had been a massive demonstration of, you know, English individualism and breaking away from the church and, you know, obviously the issues of Bloody Mary and all of that and that, you know, after eventually we'd told the continent to stick it, you know, the C of E spread with the Empire.
But no, it seems, at least according to this interpretation and a man who had mixed with a lot of these people that even...
Like, for instance, he'd done a lot of work for the Goldsmith family before he came to work for Saatchi and Saatchi over here.
And one of the things he stated was that there was an immense Catholic presence and influence among what was a seemingly Jewish-English line.
Another figure that he mentioned, who I, with Dale, have done some presentations on, and he's certainly someone...
Without going into too much of a meander here, but I would enjoin listeners to your podcast to look this fellow up.
He really emphasised the importance of looking at Ernest Castle, the figure who was one of the big backers for Churchill, Castle's creature.
I've not even heard of him.
This is extraordinary, isn't it?
This is it, man, and you're a very educated fellow, and I have brought this up with a lot of contacts of mine.
I'd been vaguely aware of Churchill's kind of nickname was Castle's Creature, but that was it.
That was it.
What, K-A-S-S-E-E?
C-A-S-S-E-L.
And he was, at the time of his death, or for a period of the 19th century, the wealthiest man in England.
So isn't there a publisher called Castle?
I believe there may well be.
What's interesting about Castle is that...
I think he was associated with the regions of Heskastle and Hesdarmstadt where the Battenberg and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha lines originally hail from.
And he, like the Rothschilds, was a sort of, you know, they had court Jew Ashkenazic backgrounds associated with those Germanic lines which, you know, from the beginning of the Hanoverian era had obviously held a lot of sway.
In England.
But what's interesting about Ernest Castle is that obviously we're aware of people like Nathaniel Rothschild having a huge influence in the Bank of England in the 19th century.
But this fellow, he's the one that basically takes young Churchill under his wing and ensures that well beyond his pay as a politician, he's got multiple houses, multiple mistresses, his debts are all cleared up.
Long after Randolph Churchill, his father succumbed to syphilis.
So this character is a real power behind the throne.
And what's interesting is, obviously, he's an Ashkenazic Jew, but when he was ennobled in the UK, he chose to convert to Catholicism, not to Anglicanism.
And this is something that my friend really emphasised.
He said, a lot of these Semitic lines will become English Catholics.
They won't become Anglicans.
So that would mean, for example, that the Duke of Norfolk, Yes.
Who is Britain's premier, well, so we're told, premier Catholic nobleman.
He's obviously a pretty powerful figure.
It's so hard to, so you get two schools of thought, well, actually probably more than two schools of thought.
I was listening to a podcast only the other day which said, Oh, of course, the Rothschilds are just fool guys.
Everyone knows their name.
And the fact that we know their name means that they are not really, they have no influence because the real movers and shakers keep their identity secret.
And against that, you think, well, what about the Battle of Waterloo?
Exactly. What about, if you, was it Nathaniel Rothschild?
I believe after Mayor Amschel, he sends Nathaniel to London as that branch.
So if Nathaniel Rothschild, with the advantage of his carrier pigeons or his telegraph or whatever, knew that the Battle of Waterloo was won by the British and pretended it had been lost, pretended to sell his shares and then bought up the stock when it started plummeting.
Bought it up really cheap and ended up owning 90%, I believe, of the UK Stock Exchange.
Yes. That would seem to me to be quite a successful route to massive wealth.
And if, as I've also read, the Rothschilds are worth 500 trillion.
Indeed, I've seen that figure.
Half the total money in the world.
Then that would indicate to me that they're not just kind of minor players whose names we happen to know because they've been bigged up by the real movement.
So you get these...
We're never going to get to the bottom of that.
But what we can do is what you're doing now is repeat gossipy snippets that we've heard from insiders.
And that's kind of almost enough for me.
Indeed. The Jesuits...
Anyone who's looked into Jesuits intelligently and seriously knows that possibly Ignatius Loyola and certainly all the other leading Jesuit founders were Converso Jews.
Yes. So the military wing of the Catholic Church was infiltrated by the Jews in the mid-16th century.
Yes. But then you've got...
Complications like, who even are the Jews anyway?
Very good question, because we're talking about a Kazarian development if we're dealing with Europe.
It's the Kazarian.
Yes. We know that the Jews...
Pride themselves.
You can be a Jew without being religious, in any way subscribing to the Talmud or the Torah.
You don't even have to know who Moses is, pretty much.
But what you do have to have had is a Jewish mother.
So they're very big on bloodlines, funnily enough.
But whence does this bloodline derive?
Where does it go back to?
And if all it does is go back to...
You know what I mean?
It's not really religious heritage.
It's just a kind of random thing that a certain faction of the world's bad people have invented.
Indeed. Well, we know that, I mean, people are familiar with the Khazar Empire, and you can look at the king's list around the time of the 700s or 8th century AD.
They go from, you know, these very Bulgar-like names to suddenly, you know, King Jacob and Aaron.
And they represent one of the few times in the history of Judaism, and you can see this in Orthodox history.
This is not something fringe here, where there was a massive conversion on the part of a...
An empire that occupied a key trading post around where present-day Ukraine is under pressure to convert from both Eastern Orthodox Christian and Muslim factions.
The story goes they chose the third of the Abrahamic faiths.
And it was one of the few times where this had actually been accepted supposedly by the diaspora community of Jews who actually have since had nothing really to do with them genetically.
It's very interesting because some of the more untoward practices of the Khazars.
Probably tie a lot more into, I guess, what I refer to as blood libel myths that we see proliferating today.
I can't think what you possibly mean.
So, but lest anyone accuse us of being anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists, which is, that is part of the...
They get out of jail free, isn't it?
Exactly. It shuts down debate.
I mean, look, I'll say here and now I have fantastic Jewish associates.
I have relatives who have been born into that faith through their mother who are exquisite human beings, some of whom practice, some of whom don't.
I would liken it...
To, you know, a criticism of the Catholic Church or criticism of Freemasonry.
You know, there's plenty of chaps who are a bit like your local Rotarians.
You know, they go around, they fundraise, they just wear funny aprons, and that's a great front for it.
There are plenty of Catholics who, you know, rock up and they, you know, have a rosary gathering dust at home.
And there are plenty of Jews who, you know, did some rudimentary Hebrew at shul who are not representatives of what we're criticizing.
So that, I say.
Hand over heart.
No issue with what you belong to, you know?
Oh, totally.
And they even have the kind of the super elite Khazarian mafia, whatever you want to call them, the real dark lords.
They have a word for ordinary Jews, which is Schnorers.
These are the kind of expendable...
They don't care if they end up in concentration camps or whatever because they're collateral damage.
So it's not like there's a sort of brotherhood.
It's a kind of...
Well, it applies across the board, doesn't it?
Indeed. If you are a member of the elite, you count.
And if you don't, you're cattle.
Whether you're born into a Jewish family or a Christian family or a Muslim family, whatever, you're expendable.
You're scum.
You don't count.
Exactly, man.
So, you see, you've confirmed something that I think is...
Ought to be obvious when you spent time down the rubber hole, which is that these ruling families go back ages, to roam at least probably back to...
Sumeria. Sumeria, exactly.
And you've got the complication of the Phoenicians, because these people are sometimes referred to as the Phoenician Navy.
Well, when was Carthage destroyed?
This is very interesting.
The Second Punic War is a fascinating one.
I believe Scipio Africanus finally bests Hannibal sometime in the 200s BC.
I'm not too sure exactly when Zama was, but that...
Was an interesting reverse takeover, if you will.
I mean, we all hear that story of how they ploughed salt into the fields around Carthage to get rid of this dreadful empire that was the last bastion, the Phoenician empire, which related to the Canaanites.
They traded where Lebanon was.
We hear stories of their Baal worship, and Moloch was certainly a deity that they venerated.
I believe that the state deity of Carthage was...
Baal or Baal Hamon, who was venerated with a sacrifice of your firstborn, with a lot of the activities that we hear about going on behind the scenes today.
Now, why I want to mention the fall of Carthage, and it's very important that you brought it up, was that as much as we think that Rome came and absolutely eradicated them, the festival of Saturnalia, it was actually taken back, and some of these customs were taken back in almost Operation Paperclip.
Style reverse takeover to Rome.
And this is something I think people need to really look at.
When you see clashes, it's not so much, you know, us and them.
Our error, fatal error, as the common man, is that we see in terms of black and white.
This is a dialectic that they're playing all the time.
And every so often, it comes time for one group to oust the other.
Like we said at the start, there's a good chance that Mountbatten himself was offed by members of a different line that all hobnobbed together.
But I would say that if you keep going back, You can certainly find that, you know, say we go back Pre the fall of Rome, and then you look at the East and the Western Roman Empire, and then you go back and you look at the rise of the Roman Empire.
They've taken on Carthaginian behaviours.
You keep on going back further.
You have what Alexander had touched on with his massive expansion, which is hinted at in The Man Who Would Be King, where they've all got the Masonic imagery on them, and it comes to the eye when they go to the East.
Fantastic film.
Absolutely love it.
Recommend everyone watch that.
It makes you want to be a Freemason.
Oh, it does.
It does, man.
I want it to be like, you know, I'm on the level.
I'm traveling to the east from the west.
Peachy. Yes, peachy.
And, you know, you keep going back further and further, and you eventually will find yourself, certainly with the Macedonian expansion, you get through the Ptolemaic dynasty after his empire split up.
They have...
Egypt and Egypt and all of its practices, you know, we need to remember that Cleopatra married at one point her own son.
And I think that some may have been born by her own brother to consolidate power before she shagged Caesar and then tried it on with Mark Antony, but then Octavian, you know, had that good Roman strength to resist.
You know, you're seeing then that get absorbed into the empire afterwards.
So I know I've mentioned a series of groups here, but each time it's not like one just randomly ends.
The ruling class is absorbed into the next, and you can keep going back very far.
Yes, because we're sold these stories like when the Romans turned up in Carthage and saw the practices there, they were appalled and they were vomiting in disgust to all the kind of babies thrown into the fire and so on.
But you're saying, nah, that was just the story.
Another line we were sold.
It's a bit like Trump being the opposite of Biden.
Yes. They're all the bloody same.
Exactly. There's a good chance they're all attending Bohemian Grove at some point or an equally sordid, you know, practice and pastime.
And even that, you know, the image of the Owl of Minerva, which is the Roman equivalent of Moloch, you know, shown as an owl, which I must add here actually now that it's come to the surface of my mind like a magic eight ball.
My associate from that family said one of the dead giveaways in bloodliner houses when you go to a really stately home.
He mentioned Clevedon House as one of the ones that really made use of this.
You'll find the real players in this, the bloodlines who still practice, always have an owl prominently displayed in their drawing rooms or other rooms around the house.
Owls are very popular, and that's something that's significant certainly to the veneration of Moloch and its equivalent in Roman practice, Minerva.
Here's something you've never heard before.
I know it's only just occurred to me.
When I was at Oxford, there was a debating-stroke-dining society at Balliol College called the Arnold and Brackenbury Society.
Boris Johnson was the president of the Arnold and Brackenbury Society, and he once invited me to one of their dinners.
And guess what the mascot of the Arnold and Brackenbury Society is?
An owl.
A stuffed owl.
Good lord.
The owl presides over the Arnold in Brackenbury.
Now, I hadn't made any connection until you told me that.
I just thought, oh, how funny, an owl.
Yes. Lives in a barn, hunts mice, you know.
Lives in a barn with big eyes, turns its head round.
Yes. Well, it's the head.
Apparently the significance is that, very much like the Roman figure Janus, who could see both ways, an owl sees everything.
It can turn and see everything.
Similar to the double-headed eagle that you see in 33rd degree Scottish Freemasonry or the Rothschild logo.
Toby, I wish I had you for about five hours because there were so many...
I feel like I found my brother from another mother from the other side of the world.
Absolutely. Because it's not...
I find that as I've been doing this stuff more, I find it very, very difficult to find guests who are as batshit crazy...
Immersed in this crazy stuff as I am.
But you seem to have the goods.
And your man is just absolutely...
So, the owls, yeah?
Yes. The Catholics.
Just sort of reconfirm.
It's a kind of big sort of mafia of families.
And presumably there's rivalry between them, like when Mountbatten got offed for being too pedo.
Absolutely, even by their standards.
Imagine being too pedo for these...
You need to be really sordid to get to that level.
You've got to think, God, man.
And they're all into...
I mean, they're basically essentially Satanists, aren't they?
He's the top dog.
Yes, I mean, you know, to use the term Satan here, certainly, you know, post the coming of Christ and, you know, I mean, we look at the language of Satan and what Satan represents, you know, the adversary.
Satan, as I understand it from reading a lot of Kabbalistic texts and certainly within Jewish theological law, is kind of the figure in the book of Job.
Who works on behalf of, you know, the Creator God.
To test individuals, to force you to account for your base and natures in the face of God, tempt you.
So there's various definitions there, but I think when we use the term Satanism today in the 21st century, as an individual who is entirely given over to evil actions at the expense of other people, man is just another animal and better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
I think it's fair to say they're Satanists, but I'll qualify it with this.
If you were to talk with someone who belonged to one of these bloodlines or who...
You know, their family had been a very long period of time.
None of them would use the term, I'm a Satanist, you know, or I, you know, I'm going to have an upside down cross.
Exactly, very vulgar.
It's for the common man.
You know, it's for the Marilyn Manson aficionados and the Church of Satan, kind of the Hollywood, you know, the exorcist and all that.
And I'm not saying that stuff doesn't have some really dark.
I'm not dismissing it, but the best description I ever came across, and I'm indebted to the work of a gentleman known as Mark Passio, who I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with.
He had been a priest in the Church of Satan when Anton LaVey was still alive.
He said that when you mix with the real movers and shakers, they just called it the old religion.
They didn't have a name for it.
They just said it was so old.
It's gone through so many iterations.
They don't look at it like...
We're this.
This is our faction.
That's for whatever era we're in.
I'm sure if we were having this conversation in ancient Rome, we're saying, look, Scipio's come back from Carthage and he's got some really weird behaviour.
We might have whatever the equivalent of the adversary was there in Latin.
So they just call it the old religion.
Yes. And you corrected me earlier on the use of the word Illuminati.
How do they refer to themselves as a kind of group?
I don't really know.
I know that in the context of my conversations with this fellow, you're really taught to have absolute loyalty to your family, your bloodline, and that comes at the expense of everything else.
A big part of that is that the eldest son, in particular, will be initiated into those secrets.
Oftentimes you'll find that there will be a tragedy.
There'll be the death of a child somewhere along the line.
Absolutely. The Rothschilds are beset with that.
It's actually quite disturbing to read about.
Even lesser members of the family, and this is in the 21st century, have lost a child at three to fever.
And you're thinking, my God, if you're worth half a quadrillion dollars, surely you'd have access to adequate medical care that you wouldn't be suffering from infant mortality.
But it is cause for concern.
Suicide is also quite common among these cliques, and it was revealed to me that a lot of the time that is they're prepared to off people who are going to bow out of it, and also sometimes the biggest threat to their continuation is having a child with a conscience.
Let's put it that way.
I can see that.
Yes, it seems that their old religion, the forces, because I mean...
You're probably with me.
These forces are real, these supernatural forces.
They're not just kind of human invented shit that we shouldn't take seriously.
They seem to require blood sacrifice.
Yes, absolutely.
And you definitely get promotion if you allow one of your...
And you see it with rock stars as well.
The number of successful rock stars who've lost children tragically.
Yes. Yes, and actors, all of these figures, you know, I mean, statistically, it's a complete abnormality when you look at it.
And it's not as though these people don't love their children, they don't think.
There's a very interesting and telling thing here.
I mean, obviously, it binds you more, given that you did love that figure in the family.
I mean, if it was as easy as just...
You know, the discharge of protein that was required to create it.
You know, it'd be cool, throw it in the fire, that's fine.
But one of the rituals that I remember reading about, that was used in Carthage to Baal Hermon, which, you know, at really seriously trying times in the defence of the city, or you're wanting to attract rains or abundance.
Is that individuals would have to take their firstborn child or a loved child and the mother in particular would have to walk up to this, you know, golden or brass bronze ball that was...
You know, basically heated till it was like an oven and, you know, you had these awful dreadful drums beating and the clergy would basically sit there and they'd stare the mother in the face and the mother would have to very carefully put her infant or younger child on there where it was roasted alive.
And you could imagine it was dreadful to see, you know, screams and everything.
And if she shed a tear, it was said to...
Basically weaken the power of the sacrifice.
It was a very, very interesting form of trauma that they were subjected to.
I mean, obviously, you know, I can't imagine, you know, I'm not a parent, but I certainly couldn't imagine what it would be like the bond of a mother to a child to go through that.
And the reason for that, it was reserved for the elite, that the most trying times they had to go through it.
There was something about harvesting that trauma, that energy, that sacrifice that really counted.
I tell you what, next time I hear about Hannibal crossing the Alps on elephants, I'm not going to be thinking, yeah, cool, elephants, go Hannibal.
I'm going to be thinking, you bastard.
The things your people did, I'm not on your side.
Pause an avalanche.
Just stomp up and down.
I want an avalanche to...
Yeah. Yeah, that is...
I mean, it's not as bad, but it's analogous.
You see this used in...
What's it called?
Mark Miller's movie about...
Kingsman. Kingsman.
About how you get given a dog and you train it from a puppy and then you have to kill your dog.
Do they do it in that?
I've never seen it.
That's interesting.
I think they talk about it.
That's what the SS had to do, apparently.
The SAS in Australia have to do it with a chicken, interestingly enough.
I have a few chaps that I know have been through the training, and one of the final initiations is you're basically dumped out in the middle of nowhere, and you're having to forage for survival, but the whole time you have to keep this little hen alive, and at the very end of it you wring its neck.
Part of the process is...
Interesting. They nicknamed the chicken killers by the rest of the Australian army.
I was in the Western Sudan once, and we'd been living on tin food for a while, and we came to this village.
The Sudanese are absolutely lovely and generous.
They were starving, but nevertheless, they gave us these two very scrawny chickens.
And I was 19 at the time, and I felt that as a meat-eater, well, you know, this weird thing goes through your head, I felt that I ought to be capable of killing the animals that I ate, well, at least if they're chicken-sized.
I still haven't slaughtered a bull.
So I remember trying to kill these chickens and, you know, do the thing where you grab them.
Grab them by the head and use their body weight.
It didn't have much weight on it.
It was very scrawny to try and break its neck.
And then watching it sort of scurry off, you know, even when it's dead, it still runs away through the dust.
Anyway, I did it.
Can you see how hard I've become?
It's brutalized me, Toby.
The thousand-yard stare.
Yeah. I sometimes freak people out when they look into my eyes and they see the dead blackness of a chicken killer.
So, I think we should talk about your time.
We can always go back to the Illuminati people.
Absolutely. But I want to hear about your time with the Ordo...
What is it?
Templi Orientis.
Okay. Was that Alistair Crowley's?
Yes, it's Crowley's Little Lot, and he's got a very interesting one.
I'll just say, actually, for everyone listening here, it's not me being a stickler for pronunciation, but you can, a dead giveaway with Thelemites, or people who've actually been associated with one of his two orders.
That's O-T-O.
Templi Orientis, Order of the Temple of the East, which is kind of his quasi-Masonic group, or AA, Argentium Astrum, Order of the Silver Star, which is more of his inner elite SS unit, if you will.
You find that the pronunciation for Crowley, you'll find that's the dead giveaway.
A lot of conspiracy podcasts always say Crowley.
And the reason why I say this isn't to be a stickler for pronunciation, but it's because...
Crowley himself wrote a very interesting poem for his followers to memorize.
And so I say this to people because it's a bit of a shibboleth among Thelemites.
He said, those who treat me foully call me Mr. Crowley, and those who think me holy call me Mr. Crowley.
And I just want to put that out for people because there's a lot of chaps out there who will, you know, go on about how much they know about...
Alastair Crowley.
And there is nothing worse than when you hear them talking as though they knew the man himself and they drop that.
But it's a shibboleth I want to put out there.
Did I say Crowley?
No, no, no.
And you have impeccable pronunciation.
Don't worry about that.
I just want to say that because it's a giveaway for people that know it and have been in it.
It's Crowley.
I think that David Bowie gives you...
Doesn't he say immersed in Crowley's uniform?
Uniform. Does he say Crowley or Crowley?
I'm not too sure, because I'm so used to saying Crowley, but I know Ozzy Osbourne says Crowley, but Bowie, I think, in Quicksand, that delightful song.
Actually, now that you mention that, that Bloodliner fellow told me something very interesting.
You won't find this anywhere on the internet.
He said, because he spent some time around the band Killing Joke in the 80s that were a real sort of Crowley outfit, that when he was mixing with Jazz Coleman and the like, and they had Jimmy Page, because he knew Jimmy Page personally for a brief period of time, they revealed that...
Bowie named himself not after the Bowie knife in, you know, imitation of Mick Jagger sounding like a dagger.
I think that's what everyone kind of hears because he was originally David Jones.
Apparently there was an entity that Crowley couldn't bind in Egypt and the young David Jones in his early experiment as a Thelemite apparently aligned himself with an entity that Crowley had named Bowie.
Something I've heard from this chap that I haven't been able to see anywhere else.
I wanted to put that out there, because I've not seen any record of that, but it was very interesting.
But Crowley couldn't bind it?
Yes, yes.
What does that mean?
One of the things that you come across, either if you're a sort of armchair aficionado of Crowley and you read lots of books about him, the one that I'd recommend for listeners is Lawrence Sutton's biography of him, and also the work of Richard B. Spence, Secret Agent 666, which I'll go into a little bit later.
One of the things that you come up often with is that Crowley was a phenomenally adept ceremonial magician, and two of the big workings that he did was...
A big working burleskin house in Scotland.
Now owned by Jimmy Page.
Exactly. It was owned by Page.
Page then got rid of it because he found it so haunted.
And then when I was still a member of OTO, before I walked under somewhat indecorous circumstances, one of the things that was offered to all of us was because the place had finally burnt down.
It's a wretched place.
I visited it there in the noughties as a schoolboy.
And just on a kind of lake, it was near Loch Ness, in fact.
All the sightings of old Nessie kind of begin after he occupies it.
All this dreadful stuff goes on.
But he has a working called the Abremelin working.
It's kind of an old Kabbalistic ritual.
And he doesn't really finish it.
And so he didn't bind, as they say in ceremonial magic, a lot of these entities there.
And some speculate that the Loch Ness monster is related to that.
Similarly, the fact that I believe one of the...
Keepers of the house murdered his whole family, one of the stories goes, and the fact that Page wouldn't reside there.
So he did that there, but he also did a lot of work in Cairo, and apparently one of the entities that he couldn't find, at least according to this associate of mine, was called Bowie.
I like your digressions.
It's good that we've, in the space of this podcast, we've sold the mystery of the Loch Ness Monster.
Exactly, man.
Demonic spirits raised by Crowley, but half-arsedly.
Totally. I mean, look, for a man who also loved cocaine at a time where you can get it 100% pure, manufactured in Switzerland for free at The Chemist, you know, it's a wonder that he'd give up on more things in life.
But yes, my association with OTO.
So, I want to say for the record here, the grade that I was was Minerva, named after that figure, that delightful figure we were discussing earlier.
The owl.
And that's the grade sign, the Owl of Minerva.
Minerva also gets its name because it's the first degree in the Illuminati that Adam Weishaupt formed.
He was a Jesuit professor of canon law at the University of Ingolstadt.
And when he developed the Order of the Illuminati as an addendant body, or a pendant body, sorry, to Freemasonry as it existed in the late 18th century, his equivalent of the three Blue Lodge grades, which are what Entered Apprentice fellow craft and Master Mason, his equivalent of the Entered Apprentice was Minerval.
So when Crowley made the OTO, the introductory grade was Minerval.
Now, when you join the OTO, like I did for about 18 months, You know, it's a very kind of formal association.
You're going there usually for a kind of mass, you know, an inversion, if you will, of the Christian mass.
It's called the Gnostic mass or Lieber 15. It's not quite, you know, everyone in black robes.
In fact, it's the robes that I described earlier.
You know, the white ones are sort of Rosicrucian crucifixes on the front.
You do oftentimes, at least when I went to my lodge, you know, there'll be a naked woman on the altar.
A chap with a kind of, you know, role-playing pharaonic outfit simulating sex with a spear into a chalice and they'll be on a sort of black and white checkerboard with a bit of a pyramid, sometimes with an illuminated eye, but usually what's known as the stele of revealing or something that was from Exhibition 666 at the Egyptian Museum of Antiquities at the time that Crowley was performing all sorts of strange acts there.
When I joined it, I maintained that level.
And I want to say this for all of your listeners out there, there might be some thelemites.
So as a Minerval, you're considered an honoured guest of OTO.
And you can stay at the Minerval grade for as long as you want.
The reason for the trepidation about moving up a level to the first degree, man or brother or man or freighter or sister or soror, Is that you do sign a contract which states very clearly if you choose to leave the OTO will be with you till the day of your death and you basically agree to binding arbitration with disputes with other members to be decided by the governing body.
So that leap and the very early stage is very serious and I do take my word.
Seriously, you know, I'm one of those chaps who still does believe in oaths and does believe, you know, when you sign a contract, you've got to honour it.
So I want to say, you know, for the record here, that was the level I was at, you know, and there are, you know, to the best of my knowledge, about 12 degrees, the 12th being the outer head of the order.
Currently a chap who goes by the name of Hymenaeus Beta.
He was born on a CIA base.
Very interesting fellow.
William Breeze, I think, is his real name.
But, yeah, it's a very, very compartmentalised group.
So the account I'm going to give is from someone who was at the zero-degree minerval grade, who knew even when he was in it, you don't want to get too deep into these practices.
I suppose that you were inspired to join or to dabble in it.
By that sort of curiosity that we all have, which is, does this stuff really work?
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely. I had begun a correspondence with them as early back as my 21st birthday, which would have been around 2014.
And at the time, it belonged to a kind of odd cult in the area.
I was, you know, in my search for God, I'd aligned myself with something of an ayahuasca doomsday cult.
And I think when you get a strong personality whispering sweet nothings into your ear under the influence of powerful hallucinogenic drugs, you can believe all sorts of weird things.
So at that time of searching...
I nearly aligned myself with the OTO, but even the chap that was running the cult, I was part of in the midst of his madness and said, listen, Toby, you don't want to get involved with that sort of mischief.
And it put, you know, the fear of God in me, if you will.
And then about four years later, that had worn off.
And I thought, well, it's time for the next deep dive.
And it was a very interesting experience.
I mean, look, before I necessarily share a lot of personal stories, there are three...
Triads to the OTO structure.
It's built around a sort of Kabbalistic system for those out there familiar with the Tree of Life, people who may have read, you know, books on ceremonial magic or be familiar with a group known as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which Crowley was initiated into along with people like William Butler Yeats and other society figures in late Victorian England.
They had a system of grades very similar.
Sorry. No, no, no, please go.
I just, as a side issue, I studied Yeats and you sort of come across this biographical detail that he was involved with this stuff.
But actually, you can't really understand Yeats and you shouldn't study Yeats unless you understand that this is absolutely key, this kind of thing.
It's not something you just do, oh yeah, every...
Every Friday, one Friday in a month.
I mean, it's a commitment, yeah?
Exactly, man.
Exactly. It's not like a sort of lodge piss-up.
You know, by and large, and certainly in the case of Yates, he was a magician, a wanderer, and the man absolutely believed in the reality of it.
Right. Okay.
And he himself had, I believe, I mean, some biographers have disputed this, but he apparently had a physical altercation with a young Crowley when Crowley was still at, I think he was still at Trinity College, Cambridge, and had become a bit of an upstart in their local lodge.
But the reason why I'm mentioning these facts is that, like any system where terrible things happen, It's very compartmentalised.
And as you progress, and I'm sure people are familiar with the Scottish rites of Freemasonry with its 33 degrees and Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, where he writes very clearly, I think it's after the 30th degree, it's revealed that the brothers are venerating Lucifer as the light of our lodge.
There's a process of vetting.
So there's a lot of chaps, and in the instance of OTO, they welcome women, too, because you sort of need them for the sex magic.
Otherwise, it's a bit too much buggery.
So there are these three triads, and they all represent the ten spheres of the Kabbalistic tree of life, which I'd enjoin people to look at to understand how these things are structured.
And my reading into it and my personal experience is that it's also a way of testing members because, you know, even something that is pretty to the point with its magical practice like OTO, I mean, it doesn't beat about the bush like low-level masonry does.
I've seen a very interesting chart that it actually had equivalent layers of awareness between, say, the 12 degrees of OTO and the 33 degrees of...
Scottish Rite Freemasonry, and it's very clear that each degree you go up in OTO, you jump way more.
You know, you're privy to a lot more things if you want to put them together.
But there's also, you need people down the bottom who are a bit dull, or they're a bit, you know, they're the normies who aren't going to get far.
You know, I mean, it takes you a long time to reach the fifth degree.
In fact, they have a rule.
You don't interact with the upper echelon.
Not one bit, man.
And that's the big thing I want to let people know here, that it's very rare that you will access testimonies from Thelemites who've really been beyond degrees higher than that first triad, because the things you're doing...
And the oaths you're taking get more and more serious.
I mean, people can go on YouTube or Rumble, Bitshoot, and you can find some testimonies from lodges around the world, usually with a kind of spectrum member of a lodge in the US, you know, with speech impediments, and it really puts people off joining it, you know, a fashion disaster.
And, you know, they're the face of it, you know, because it becomes very clear later on.
You know, I mean, the sodomy rituals, the tattooing of bizarre things over your heart, the use of, you know, blood and feces and semen to sustain demonic entities isn't for the faint of heart.
So for people out there who want an expose, because I will only ever share what I've experienced directly, you know, I want to be absolutely...
You know, clear about that.
There is a fantastic book, and the author of this, Francis X. King, who was a member of the Ordo Templarientis, I think in the 60s and 70s, won a very, very long and drawn-out legal case against OTO to publish a book called The Secret Rituals of the OTO.
And I really, really encourage listeners to go out and source a copy of that book.
Original editions are rare as rocking horse shit, but it's worth its weight in gold.
And the story goes they had to vary up their rituals a bit after that, but certainly I compared what he'd revealed of the Minerval initiation ceremony with what I went through, and it was identical, you know, so I think they lacked the imagination to really digress from what Crowley had drawn up in the early part of the 20th century.
How... I hesitate to use the word authentic, but, I mean, did Crowley just...
Invent this shit, or does it have a kind of heritage?
Very good question.
It's very similar to what we were discussing earlier about these bloodlines, how one grows from another group.
So you need to go back with the family tree of the mystery schools, and this owes its existence entirely to masonry.
In fact, when Crowley was initiated into this lodge, these lodges are what you call irregular masonic bodies.
So they're not necessarily recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England, the UGLE, which is usually the premier authority, certainly for things like the Scottish Rite and the York Rite.
And I think...
Correct me if I'm wrong, it's the Duke of Kent that's sort of the ceremonial head of that.
He's the head of one of the branches, yeah.
Yes, yes.
So that body, they defend their rights of whatever entity it is and their ritual very, very fiercely.
Usually, as I understand it, when you get through the first three degrees, the Blue Lodges, then you're open to go study various branches and you get the invitations to that.
And originally OTO was developed not by Crowley, it was a German.
A lodge that was developed by two figures, Karl Kellner and Theodor Reus, in the late 1890s.
And these chaps were kind of members of continental Masonic bodies.
And in many respects, they were sort of very wealthy, very indulgent fellows who really wanted to have a means to explore sex magic because they had, over the course of their travels and reading, come across some of the tantric practices of India.
And it's very clear that things like the Kama Sutra and its translation by that fantastic explorer Richard Burton That had a huge effect on a lot of people and the public imagination.
So they, like a lot of Masons, they're looking to find a sort of grand unified truth that spreads everywhere.
And that's why one of the prerequisites to become a Mason is that you have to have a belief in a sort of singular deity.
And I think my reading into that, and I say this, I'm not a Freemason.
is because part of the brainwashing there is that then you're corralled into believing at a certain level that in fact it is the light of Lucifer that illuminates all things everywhere in India, in China, South America.
It's certainly a very interesting force that permeates all these places but there is a very very interesting form of brainwashing that goes on there.
A very close Jewish friend of mine was saying that An uncle of his who's a very, very acclaimed figure.
He was in a lodge and, you know, they had a muller there.
They had a, interestingly enough, they had a Catholic priest there, even though they're supposed to be excommunicated.
And they had this chap and they're all just sitting around talking very openly.
Yes, it's all the same entity that we worship.
So it's very interesting that.
So with OTO, it was formed by these Germans and Crowley.
And I recommend people read this other biography that I mentioned in addition to Lawrence Sutton's.
It's by Richard B. Spence.
It's called Secret Agent 666.
Crowley is enlisted by British intelligence to basically penetrate German lodgers in the First World War, and he spends a lot of time.
In New York, he gets across there on the Lusitania and it looks likely that he's the one that writes up the plan to sink the Lusitania to bring America into the war, to drum up that anti-German sentiment.
And I can qualify that by, you know, suggesting people read that book.
I've interviewed the Emeritus Professor of History at the University of Idaho who wrote that and he has fantastic resources.
This isn't kind of fringe conspiracy.
Well, he sounds good.
Is he a good podcast guest?
Absolutely, man.
I recommend, James, you reach out to Richard B. Spence.
He's a fantastic man, real gentleman, very humble fellow.
In fact, he has just done a lecture series on secret societies, which is released, I think people can access it on YouTube, but basically they go to...
University professors who are considered experts in their field, and he's considered, I guess, the university expert in the occult, and he's fantastic.
Real good.
You should get him as a guest.
I'm sure your listeners would love to listen to him.
Okay. So, basically, to answer your question about did Crowley make the OT on his own, the story goes that before he fully immerses himself in it as part of British intelligence, he publishes some very, very sordid work in a book called The Book of Lies in the early parts of the 20th century.
In it, there is apparently a very cryptic poem that basically refers to a form of sex magic.
One of the leaders of OTO in Germany read it and they realised, hang on a minute, how's this guy aware of our ritual?
This is how the story goes.
And they rocked up to where he was and on the spot said, look, we'd like to offer you a position.
You can be one of our delegates in the UK because it's clear.
You're aware of our secret.
And Crowley was getting a bit of a name for himself as this figure who was popularizing certainly the use of psychedelic drugs in England at the time.
There's a good chance, and Richard Spence talks about this, that he was on a mission on the path of naval intelligence in Mexico in the early 1900s to investigate the uses of mescaline on the human mind.
So there's the Huxley.
Yes. Yes, man.
You're quite right.
The doors of perception.
They're all in it.
Yes. And the Huxley family, another bloodline one, you know, T.E. Huxley, Darwin's Bulldog and all of that.
These fellows, you know, these eugenics families.
And Aldous Huxley, I mean, obviously, you know, people need to read Brave New World because that's a sort of playbook right there.
He's celebrated alongside Albert Hoffman with LSD as the chap that really did the research into psychedelics.
I would counter that with, no, it was in fact Crowley.
And Crowley was a master drug user.
And it's true that he was a master drug user.
Very good at it.
Like a lot of Trinity College boys, I'm led to believe.
He spent time in Mexico, you know, hobnobbing with some Masonic orders, but also researching the effects of San Pedro cactus, I believe.
And he wrote, people in OTO are somewhat aware of this.
It's interesting, when you talk about this with other thelemites, they're not prepared to acknowledge that he was maybe just an intelligence operative.
But he wrote a...
One of his Libri, because most of his publications are called Liber, and then you have the ensuing Roman numeral, one called Liber Cactus, and it's a lost one.
There's references to it in his diaries, but it looks like it was his notebook from the intelligence services on how to interrogate people under the influence of psychedelic drugs.
And there's a funny little story I want to share here that Richard Spence confirmed.
Crowley, he did a lot of work in World War I, and seemingly a lot of biographers thought that he was working for German propaganda, but they could never explain why he wasn't hung when he came back to England, so it was pretty clear that he was a mole.
And then in World War II, he was reactivated, and one of the jobs he had was interrogating Rudolf Hess after he did that fateful flight to the UK, which was very strange, as early as 1941.
Exactly. I'm sure you've gone down that rabbit hole.
It's a very compelling one.
Yes. And the story goes that when he lands and Hess is taken to be interrogated, some people say it wasn't Hess.
I'm not too sure.
But for the purposes of this story, let's say it was.
Hess was one of the arch occult aficionados within the Nazi party.
One of the things that Hess complained about...
And I'd read rumors of this when I was a real hardcore thelemite, that Crowley was the one that they'd contacted because they said, look, you can level with this guy, and you also know the German mindset pretty well, was that Hess had complained that he was being basically spiked with what he referred to as Mexican brain poison.
Now, Richard Spence confirmed this.
He said that the nickname for San Pedro cactus and mescaline throughout that period...
In the 20th century was Mexican brain poison and Hess would have been familiar with it and he said, look, I'm being subjected to very unethical interrogation here.
And it looks likely that Crowley, who on regular occasions, I believe in New York, he even had a chemist synthesize something like a pound of the stuff that he'd just walk around consuming all day and spiking people with.
He would have been the premier.
A dreadful man.
We would have one hell of a trip next to the Statue of Liberty in 1915.
And as one of the few men qualified to conduct these interrogations, it's as good evidence suggests they brought him in and they sat him down across from Hess and they basically allowed him to do dreadful things to him under the influence of Mescaline.
And of course, people familiar with all of the later MKUltra experiments and how vile they are know that that would have definitely been an integral building block to that study in the intelligence agency.
So, we've digressed.
So, is that, okay, so the Germans, this German offshoot of, German Freemasonic offshoot sort of put together the rituals that were later kind of developed by Crowley.
Yes. Do these rituals, do you think that the Sumerians or the Babylonians would have been familiar with this kind of stuff?
Is it the same thing?
So to answer your question where it came from, so Crowley, when he wrote the rituals, had to get permission from the United Grand Lodge of England to have it, and they said it's too similar to masonry, so you had to vary it up a bit.
I think if you trace it back, because of course the big daddy of this lodge system is Freemasonry, which according to the Orthodox textbooks, the first lodge is formed in 1717 in England.
If you go back further through the Masons' guilds in Europe, You'll eventually get to stories about the Templars, and that's where you need to really go to understand where this comes from.
So where the Templars got their, I guess, their immersion in the mystery schools, which your question was whether or not it goes back to Samaria, was, of course, as a result of the Crusades.
This represents a fantastic cross-pollination of ideas in the late 1090s.
When, you know, the first crusade happens, you know, you have a lot of nightly orders coming and traveling.
I think that the earliest is the Knights of Spittler, and they get things like Malta later on.
The Templars are formed shortly after that.
And as all these chaps are coming to the Holy Land, they're getting exposed to some of the really, really interesting teachings in Islam.
And one of the things, and I'm indebted to the work of William Cooper here.
People out there probably have listened to Bill Cooper's The Hour of the Time.
I recommend people go on to Rumble and access an episode here devoted to Islamic mystery schools.
And I did one with Dale, paraphrasing some of that research, my own research.
And one of the things that happened with the Templars, who are of course the...
One of the progenitors of this lodge system is that these chaps became intimately acquainted with what I'm led to believe is a form of Shi'i mysticism.
It's not typically Sunni.
In Shi'i inner teachings and some of their hidden cliques, because of course as a minority in Islam, they had to be very careful with their teachings, so they were more prone to forms of secrecy here.
There was a group known as the Hashashim, where we get the word assassin.
And there's a figure when you read about him, he's known as the old man of the mountain, Hassani Sabah.
And this chap, it looks likely from my reading of what he was up to.
He's supposedly a Muslim.
It's very clear.
It's in name only, in the same way that these Khazars, Jews in name only.
This chap occupied an area that isn't...
That far from the Tigris and the Euphrates, where the, you know, early Mesopotamian civilizations, the Sumerians, got up to what they were doing.
And it's very clear that the actions of this fellow had a huge effect, not only on the Crusaders, and obviously the period of the Crusades, you know, the fruitful times, probably a couple of hundred years, you know, obviously you've got Saladin.
Who defeats the crusaders at Hatton in the 12th century.
Saladin himself had to...
He did come to blows with the assassin order.
In fact, I believe he had to make an alliance with them after they got very close to his tent one day.
They even managed to put an assassin in the court of one of...
Oh, in the bedchamber, in fact, of one of the kings of England.
So they had a far reach, but this lot had some very interesting forms of initiation.
And there was a handbook that they were familiar with to be an initiated assassin that basically made use of, well, they were called hashashim because they made use of hashish, to take an aspirant and lull him into a state of absolute, soporific, deep sleep.
And then they would take this individual, who's usually a desert boy, and they'd take him to the old man of the mountain stronghold, which was designed like a sort of model version of what Islamic paradise is.
You know, virgins, he had canals of milk and honey everywhere, and of course you imagine you're a sort of ignorant desert boy, wake up, for three days you're allowed to shag your brains out and drink whatever you want, and then they'd spike him again, and then they'd wake up in their desert shithole.
And they'd think, my God!
This man really can, you know, take us, you know, interdimensionally to heavenly places.
And so they basically worked on earlier forms of mind control.
And it's pretty clear that at some point the Templars, who had battles and then occasionally formed alliances with the Hashashim, took on some of their teachings.
And there was a, I believe it was a seven-stage process.
To be fully initiated into this order, and oftentimes they would find, like the Jesuits do, your weakest points, where your faith is, and you're encouraged to really run with that faith, and then at the very end, you have it completely taken away from you.
You're instructed that your holy books are wrong, that you only have the order to depend upon, and then they'll do terrible things to you.
And it's really a form of early MKUltra, in a way, fracturing the consciousness of the aspirant.
So it's clear, to answer your question, where our lodge system in the West came from, that the Templars, who towards the end of their time in the Holy Land, I believe a good number of Templars, we tend to picture them as sort of, you know, like Ridley Scott's Kingdom of God.
They're sort of Western types, very dashing, you know, Orlando Bloom knights.
In fact, most Templars by that stage were Arabs.
They'd been completely inducted into the Western system.
These were dark fellows.
In fact, I believe they had some grandmasters over there who were born in that region.
So there was a huge amount of cross-pollination.
So then when we fast forward to, you know, the death of Jacques de Molay, you're supposedly at the hands of a conspiracy with the French king and the pope.
And they've become a banking clan.
That needs to be acknowledged here that, you know, the genesis of banking is among the Templars, you know, holding the goods of pilgrims to the Holy Land and then eventually issuing promissory notes and that, you know, they amass this immense wealth and they have immense forms of secrecy there.
Now, one of the charges people might be familiar with is they were said to worship an idol known as Baphomet.
And there'll be people out there who, you know, Talk about Baphomet, the Eliphaz Levi drawing of this sort of sabbatic goat.
Now Baphomet's very interesting, and this is telling to see where it all came from.
Baphomet is an early bastardization of the word Mahomet or Muhammad.
So what they were getting at was that these chaps had been exposed to a form of Islamic mysticism, which in turn It definitely goes back to the mystery schools of Babylon, which in turn goes back to the Mesopotamian-Sumerian religion.
And they were practicing that.
And I guess the infection, for want of a better term, spread to Europe.
So it really is the old religion.
Exactly. It makes so much more sense now when you see everything.
And when you were talking about the crusaders going out to pick up the arcane rituals from the...
The Hashashin.
That it's a bit like the Beatles going to India.
The Transcendental Meditation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Tavistar Institute probably is familiar with the Crusades and thinks, oh, yeah, let's get our guys to go on this and then George will play the sitar.
All I'll say is that, you know, Tomorrow Never Knows is a fantastic track.
Yeah. I must say, it's very sad waking up to realising that the Beatles were not sold.
You kind of want to believe that Ringo was the funny one and that George was, you know.
I think the power behind the throne there was George Martin.
You've got to look at a figure like that.
He was pulling those strings.
I think so.
I mean, wasn't he ex-naval intelligence, I think?
I knew he'd been a pilot.
I'm sure that there was a connection to intelligence.
I met a chap over east who I dined with on a couple of occasions who was the studio manager at Montserrat.
And he's a very interesting fellow.
He worked...
Before that at Ayer Studios in London in the 70s.
And, you know, he was an American fellow and was obviously in absolute awe of George Martin.
He'd done some lectures with him afterwards.
Whenever I did try to push the conspiracy thing, though, and I respect this fellow because obviously he was there, you know, there's photos of him and Paul McCartney and George Martin and Stevie Wonder working on tug of war at Montserrat.
So I wasn't going to guess him, but, you know, I kind of hinted.
I said, well, you know.
Do you think there was something else going on?
And, you know, then next thing you know, we're having a debate about the moon landings, and I'm like, how can you fucking believe that?
They actually happened, or at least the footage is there.
So I tried to ask this guy, but I didn't get anywhere.
You don't.
I once went, I went walking with Andrew Ridgely from WAM.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
And he's a lovely guy.
Delightful. He's really into his cycling.
But did I get any dark secrets of the Illuminati stories out of him?
I did not.
I think they compartmentalise.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, the fractured consciousness.
Also, the fact that I imagine if you're Andrew Ridgely and you're the straight one in the band, you're spending a lot of time making up for all those lovely but disappointed groupies who are after George.
I didn't even know one of the ladies from Bananarama.
He finished up well.
This is what I don't understand.
Because we know that from the chief commander interview that Bob Dylan gave, that once you sign the contract, you can't get out.
No matter how bone-tired you are and how spent your creative juices, you've still got to go on.
Cranking out these crappy albums and going on tour.
But Ridgely seems to have been given a free pass.
He seems to be, yeah, okay, your guys, the talent's dead.
Yes. Go cycling.
Exactly. The blood dead is paid.
You're quite right.
That's a very interesting point to raise, you know.
I hadn't thought, because, yeah, Wham!
was a two-piece, and it is interesting to consider that, but...
You know, again, they have to pay the blood guilt, you know, and I think so long as you're not the one, you know, on the dinner table, you know, if you can justify that to yourself.
I mean, I really love the images of Andrew Ridgely smiling there, dancing in the background.
I'm sure he's a decent fellow.
I hope he's a decent fellow.
But you're right.
When you...
I mean, I imagine OTO fancied themselves as the kind of...
Sort of special forces as opposed to regular army.
So they would consider Freemasons sort of regular army, but they're kind of, they're like the SAS or the SBS or something.
Is that right?
Quite right.
There's more of an immersion, I'm led to believe, in the esoteric.
To give you an idea of numbers, and this, my initiation, took place in 2018, I asked of my two sponsors, because of the requirements.
Identical to masonry, you know, you've got to be a chap in good standing, well, you can be a woman too, nominated by two members and you, you know, basically checked out by the lodge.
And I did say to them, or ask of them at one point, I said, you know, how many members are there worldwide?
Because at the time it was divided into, you have the outer head of the lodge, the 12th degree, Hymenaeus Beta.
And then you have, under him, I believe, there are five kings.
And they're all considered tenth degrees kings, I know.
You know, lots of role play going on here.
Do you get a crime?
Well, I think you get to bugger people at a certain level.
That was a very old rule.
I can't vouch for that now.
Exactly, exactly.
And there was one in Australia, because these are places with grand lodges, one in England.
One in America, one in Italy, and one in Romania, of all places.
It was very interesting.
The vampires.
Exactly, exactly, man.
And... So they had a very interesting take on numbers.
I said, you know, how many?
And he asked, you know, including Minervals?
I said, yes, including Minervals.
He said there's about 3,000 worldwide, but he said there's about 1,000 active members.
So that gives you an idea.
Compared to Masons, there's bugger all.
You know, there's very few Thelemites.
I don't know the state post-COVID, but I will say this.
I mean, look.
At that low level, you're going to meet some very interesting fellows.
You're also going to meet some people you would never ordinarily mix with were it not for the lodge.
There is, of course, the bottleneck effect of trying to work out who's going to go further.
I will say this.
One of the things that put me off it, aside from some very old esoteric phenomena that took place that I guess led me down a different path, was that I found that a lot of the individuals, and this was proved as COVID hit, You know, for all of their interest in, I guess, sexual freedom and drug use and, you know, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, were remarkably aligned with the ideology you and I were talking about at the very start.
You know, they were incredibly...
Normal. I mean, you know, about the...
There was a bunch of noise.
Exactly. Exactly, man.
There were a bunch of really soft left, coloured haired, you know.
I mean, I listened to something.
I remember just when I left, it was a lecture by still that bottom triad fellow, but he was saying, oh, you know, I just want to say that there's conduct expected of the lodge and transphobia isn't allowed.
And I looked at him like...
Are you fucking kidding me?
Like, please define what that is, but shouldn't we be a bit more selective over who's going to be joined?
O-T-O-W-T-F.
I mean, that's just...
Exactly. I know, and I found that dreadfully off-putting.
I thought, well, if we're going to be real evil, nasty people...
Yeah, right!
I thought...
Did you experience any kind of spooky...
Did you get any taste of the supernatural while you were...
Absolutely. Absolutely.
There was a chap.
I mean, we did some group rituals.
So the Gnostic Mass that I mentioned earlier, where, you know, there's the Stelia of Revealing from Exhibition 666 in the Cairo Museum, and that's where Crowley, his partner at the time, Rose Kelly, in 1904, received a sort of revelation where he transmitted over the course of three days what they call the Book of the Law, which is their Bible.
You know, that's represented there.
You venerate it.
You're giving a sort of honour and energy to this whole process.
Part of that is you imbibe something called a cake of light, which is composed of the menstrual blood and the semen of the priest and priestess.
So that's a very...
Imagine handing that out on pockets.
Has it got a bit of polenta in it and honey to sort of...
This is the thing, you know, I remember it came to me the first time.
This is before I was an initiated member.
They said, look, you've got to come along to mass, you know, introduce yourself to people.
I thought, all right, you know, I'm prepped for this one.
And, you know, I'd done my due diligence.
I'd been a real Crowley aficionado since, you know, high school.
And I thought, well, I know a lot about this.
And I rocked up and I was led to believe, you know, I'd done my sleuthing, that there was a temple in one of the really bougie suburbs in Perth.
And I'd known a guy who knew a guy in the music industry I was hanging around who was a kind of, must have been quite high up there, who was an artist.
And Jimmy Page has actually flown to Perth some years before to procure a piece of Crowley's original art from this fellow.
So I thought...
Far out, man.
This is awesome.
You know, I'm going to join this and we're going to be in this wonderful temple in a nice suburb and there's going to be lots of Mercedes and BMWs pulled up the front.
And then it was revealed to me that after one of their rituals, I guess, gone wrong, it had burnt down.
Very interesting.
No one really told me what happened.
So when I eventually went to one of these masses, it was in this fucking awful industrial area, like a really dreadful part of Perth.
And I kind of pulled up there and I'm, you know, at the time trying to dress the part.
I've got a black suit on with a red button up shirt.
I thought, you know, some nice, nice little cufflinks on and smile.
I've got my Egyptian hieroglyph hearing in.
That's the fashion disaster.
And I've gone there.
I thought, this is a shithole.
And we've gone through this somewhat spooky temple.
I remember telling Dale, it smelt like semen, because it turns out that the chap who owned the lease, he was this real untoward Eastern European fellow, and I think his son lived there when we weren't having rituals, and he was a swinger, or he used to throw these sex parties, so he'd come into this sordid sort of place, and there'd be this dreadful smell.
And it was real sort of cringy plastic furniture from the 70s vibe in the background.
But they'd done their best to create a somewhat, you know, sinister vibe.
But when I got there, I remember I sat in one of the pews and I knew what was probably going to happen.
But then the host was presented to me.
And I remember, you know, the angel on my shoulder was a bit like, are you going to eat that, Toby?
And I thought, well, it'd be terribly rude.
You know, they say in some tribal cultures, turning down the worms they give you is a great insult.
So I ate it, but I think they cooked it beforehand.
But at the same time, I was thinking, is it going to come here like on a sort of, in a taco, or you dip, you know?
But it varies lodge to lodge, I'm led to believe.
And did it taste horrible?
Well, it had been cooked.
It could have done with more sweetness.
It was very doughy, in fact.
That's what I found.
It was very doughy.
I realised in this conversation, I realised fairly early on, we're going to have to do at least another podcast.
Because here I am trying to kind of cram in everything.
It just doesn't work.
We've got so much to say to you, you particularly to me.
I mean, I haven't even told you the story about the time I held Alastair Crowley's wand.
Because I know the bloke who owns it.
And I've seen several of his paintings, including one called Pilgrims on the Road to Nowhere.
I'll tell you that sort of another time.
But just tell me about the entities that you saw.
Well, it was interesting.
It was when I had gone back to the apartment with one of the chaps that had vouched for me.
This sort of dreadful, you know, 90s sort of house, purple light, constant music going.
It seemed like a trap house of sorts.
And I remember he had a massive...
Dildo collection on the windows.
And these were real girthy fellows, you know, and I'm thinking, do you have a girlfriend around here?
He goes, no, they're for me.
I thought, you're a very slender man, you know, and while we were sat there and imbibing a few substances, it was very interesting.
Whenever I did drink or indulge in other things with these champs, their eyes go over.
And no word of a lie there, this chap's eyes had a tendency, now he already had dark eyes, and I was blown away by this, and it wasn't just dilated pupils.
On a number of occasions, I remember sort of calculating it, after about four drinks, or, you know, a line, this chap's eyes would literally go over far more than the dark, you know, they'd almost black over.
It was something very odd, and I'd have to do a bit of a double take, and his voice would become incredibly deep.
And I remember thinking, you know, you're sort of the rational side of your brain is questioning, am I just seeing it?
Am I under the influence?
And so, you know, being somewhat an investigator, the inner Sherlock Holmes was like, all right, next time you hang out, you can't imbibe or you can have one drink.
You need to be absolutely sober and on the ball here.
And it happened every bloody time.
And I did find that very odd.
It's like the voice would change, this man's eyes would change.
It happened with a lot of them.
He's becoming a vessel for the demons.
Indeed, indeed.
And the term vessel here is very important, James, because I'm led to believe in my own experience with that particular path, and similarly in Freemasonry.
In Rosicrucianism, in, you know, the inner parts of the Mormon temple, any of these, the process of advancement comes at great cost.
You know, a lot of people think, you know, if they genuinely believe in it, oh, you know, there'll be great wisdom, great riches, if indeed that actually happens.
I think really you become food for something.
And the longer you're around it, the further you advance into it.
And, you know, having read a lot of these texts and practiced a little bit outside of it at that time in my life where it seemed appealing, you realize that people who reach the top of that layer cake, they're not wholly there at the end.
You know, I mean, that saying, what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul, is very applicable here.
I don't think you get to the top of that with, you know, where you're corpus mentis.
And that's what I want people to take away from this.
You know, I've done some presentations on OTO in the past and I felt very guilty because I had some lovely people write in and they actually wrote in and they said, oh, where do we join?
You know, and they showed me books.
And I said, that wasn't my intention.
It really wasn't.
So, yes, that's something.
A vessel is the operative word here.
That's really interesting.
I'm going to say to everyone, look, everyone who wants more of Toby, and I agree, but I don't like going on for much longer than an hour and a half.
I get knackered, and also I think, you know, I think that's long enough.
Absolutely. I can promise you, viewers and listeners, that we would definitely do.
This conversation is to be continued, because there's lots more questions I want to ask you.
Absolutely. Once
you understand the signs and symbols of this world, it blows the mind, doesn't it?
Indeed, indeed.
And I think it's hidden in plain sight a lot of the time.
You know, we're encouraged to go back to sleep.
I think so.
Quick final question.
Do you think David Bowie is actually dead, or do you think he's in Antarctica or similar?
Did you see that very interesting thing?
I think it was a BBC interview where that chap appeared from the record label, and it was exactly like him.
Channel 4. Channel 4, that's correct.
He looked like, he was exactly like Bowie, and he made jokes about, you know...
And I believe that, maybe I'm misrecalling this, but there was one point where he slipped into the first person.
A bit like Barack Obama talking about Mike...
With Bear Grylls.
And then Mike, Michelle.
I love it.
And I suspect he's in Switzerland still.
You know, that's where he spent a lot of time around Lake.
Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely. Okay.
So, it's a deal.
We're going to talk to continue this conversation.
Where do people find your obscure and wonderful podcast?
And where do they find you?
I mean, not to...
Thank you.
Well, I'm, as I said before, I'm something of a Luddite.
I like being in the shadows.
Dale is the gentleman who has put his heart and soul into Waking World.
So the best place to find us is on Spotify, Waking World.
All one word.
Not wanking world, as Dale is fond of saying.
That might lead you to a different website.
And we're on Podomatic as well.
Apple Podcasts, all good platforms.
And we're sort of just growing that right now.
So thank you so much, James.
It's been an absolute honor.
You have definitely won yourself some more DellingPod listeners.
They're going to migrate now.
Yeah, DellingPod's all very well, but it's a bit like...
Trigonometry. It's more...
It's a bit like...
I love it.
I love it.
Your one with Johnny Cerucci, I really enjoyed.
That one about the Jesuits was fantastic, man.
And I love your mix of guests.
It's been an honour today.
I really appreciate that, James.
Well, likewise.
It's been an absolute joy.
Obviously, if you've enjoyed this podcast, you might feel tempted.
Not in a satanic way, not in a Luciferian or OTO way, but you might feel morally obliged to support me in some way.
Now, I'd love it if you did.
You can do that on Substack, probably the best place, or locals.
Or you can support my sponsors if you just want to buy shit, like gold and whatever, or nice.
Pain balm.
Or you can buy me a coffee.
But if you do the subscription thing, you get early access to my podcast.
Anyway, thank you for listening.
Thank you again, Toby.
And I should come on your podcast and you'll come back.
Absolutely. Thank you, James.
Great. Global warming is a massive con.
There is no evidence whatsoever that man-made climate change is a problem, that it's going to kill us, that we need to amend our lifestyle in order to deal with it.
It's a non-existent problem.
But how do you explain this stuff to your normie friends?
Well, I've just brought out the revised edition to my 2012 classic book.
Watermelons, which captures the story of how some really nasty people decided to invent the global warming scare in order to fleece you, to take away your freedoms, to take away your land.
It's a shocking story.
I wrote it, as I say, in 2011, actually.
The first edition came out.
And it's a snapshot of a particular era.
The era when...
The people behind the climate change scan got caught red-handed, tinkering with the data, torturing till it screamed in a scandal that I helped christen ClimateGate.
So I give you the background to the skullduggery that went on in these seats of learning where these supposed experts were informing us, we've got to act now.
I rumbled their scan.
I then asked the question, OK, if it is a scan...
Who's doing this and why?
It's a good story.
I've kept the original book pretty much as is, but I've written two new chapters, one at the beginning and one at the end, explaining how it's even worse than we thought.
I think it still stands up.
I think it's a good read.
Obviously, I'm biased, but I'd recommend it.
You can buy it from jamesdellingpole.co.uk And I hope it helps keep you informed and gives you the material you need to bring round all those people who are still persuaded that, oh, it's a disaster, we must amend our ways and appease the gods, appease Mother Gaia.
