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Dec. 27, 2022 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:30:11

Dr Michael Mew

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	I love Denny Paul.
	Come and subscribe to the podcast, baby.
	I love Denny Paul.
	And there's another time subscribe with me.
	I love Denny Paul.
	Welcome to the Denny Paul with me, James Denny Paul.
	I know I always say I'm excited about this special guest, but before I introduce him, Thor, Thor has come over from the, from London calling to do a, an advert on my superior podcast.
	So I'm gonna read it.
	Actually, it's a bit wordy.
	I think it's a bit long, Thor, actually, for the Deling pod, but I'm going to read it anyway.
	Dear fellow Delling Pod listener, I used to think America was a land of pioneers until I found myself sat upon an American lavatory and this thought struck me.
	How could these people have gone to the moon?
	Duh, they didn't though.
	Because you see, special friend, I've spent a fair bit of time in the USA working with tech entrepreneurs at MIT to help them master business pitching skills, assisting all companies in Houston with their positioning and business presentations, and what did I see?
	Every time I took a few minutes for a private lavatory pit stop, I saw the faces of all my fellow lavatory users through the massive uneven gaps which every American lavatory stall apparently possesses, and I thought, Can a country that can't manage basic carpentry really pioneer space travel?
	Thor, this is a very weird ad.
	Seriously though, you and I both love James and his Deling Pod, don't we?
	We love him because he is truly a pioneer.
	An idea pioneer.
	James and his guests push the boundary of ideas and the Deling Pod has been my secret ideas pleasure trove for many a year.
	Who am I, special friend?
	I am non-executive director, executive coach, and pro bono counsellor for the Free Speech Union.
	My name is Thor, and I believe thought pioneers like James are doubly precious in this 2022, or almost 2023, culture of conformity.
	So I'm getting up off my metaphorical private lavatory seat, Whipping out my wallet and saying it loud and proud, I sponsor the Idea Pioneering Dealing Pod.
	So, you could do with some problem-solving ideas in your life.
	Connect with me, Thor Holt, at LinkedIn or on Telegram at Thor underscore Holt.
	And yes, Telegram user means that Thor doesn't trust the science since 2019.
	Kind regards, Thor.
	Actually, Thor's better, I think, than the copyright and the advert suggests.
	I would contact him.
	He's a really good sort of coach and will add brilliant amounts of value to your business.
	Anyway, now I can, after Thor's wordy intro, I can finally introduce my special guest that I'm delighted to have.
	Mike Mew.
	I've been trying to get you for ages.
	It's great to have you on the Dallying Pod.
	Thank you very much.
	So, Mike, I gather you know nothing about a Delling Pod.
	I mean, you've lucked out here.
	It is the greatest podcast in the world.
	But I'm not used to doing it this early in the morning.
	Because you've got lots of clients coming up, haven't you?
	Yes, yeah, I'm a busy boy.
	I first heard of you when I was reading that book about breath.
	By by James Nesta.
	Yeah.
	And I got very excited because I'll tell you a story.
	I mean, you are a trained orthodontist and I'm always interested in the subjects.
	I've got terrible teeth, you know, crowded like like a lot of English people.
	I think of my generation particularly and I I went to see recently, or a year ago, one of those places that specialises in making your teeth better.
	And you talk about all the stuff about Invisalign or versus braces and stuff.
	They were talking to me.
	They're very nice.
	Nice and expensive and stuff.
	Positively expensive.
	Yeah, reassuringly expensive.
	And they took me through it all and I was on the verge of signing and I thought, Hang on a second.
	I really don't like the idea of shaving off bits of the edges of my teeth.
	This makes no sense to me.
	This seems wrong.
	Even if it's a tiny amount.
	So I never went ahead with it and I'm really glad I didn't because I think that maybe The thing that you do is actually much better than the mainstream stuff.
	So tell me a bit about your dad, first of all, because you inherited this strange business you do, where you're not really an orthodontist, you're orthotropist.
	Yeah, we refer to this as orthotropics, because if you're going to be different, you might as well have a slightly different name, because that then identifies you, you know where you stand.
	Yeah.
	So we came up with some orthotropics because we're orthodontics, orthos straight, dontos teeth, straightening teeth.
	Well we're saying orthos straight or correct.
	And tropos growth.
	So we're looking at orthotropics, we're trying to correct the growth of the face.
	Clearly, we're looking at the whole problem very differently.
	And, you know, sometimes I find the easiest way to breach this difference is to ask the question, why?
	So I was one of those annoying kids, as was my father.
	And of course, you know, we've got to contribute quite a lot of this back to my grandfather.
	But I start with the question, why are teeth crooked?
	It sounds like such an obvious statement, but that's kind of, you know, often what sciences are supposed to do.
	You know, they're supposed to ask the really simplistic, basic question, because many ways you could say, if you don't understand the cause of a problem, you don't understand the problem.
	And medicine is supposed to be about treating the causes of these problems.
	And, you know, I couldn't tell you if our ancestors had type 2 diabetes.
	I couldn't tell you if they had sleep apnea.
	You know, lots of these things, I don't know, because they're dead.
	They're gone.
	We haven't got them anymore.
	We can't look.
	There were no research, you know, done at the time, so we've got no idea.
	But I can tell you where the teeth were.
	In fact, I can tell you where the teeth still are, because we've got the skulls.
	I can go down to a museum and I can have a look.
	And, lo and behold, they never had crooked teeth.
	In fact, none of our ancestors really look much like us at all.
	You know, these guys had, you know, we're supposed to have our wisdom teeth as well, so that would be 32 teeth.
	All of our ancestors always had all 32 teeth in these, you know, in this fantastic cranio, you know, craniofacial, so that's, that's your structure, you know, this fantastic architecture, you know.
	You see anyone walking off the, um, uh, African Savannah, you know, this Masamara guy standing up, perfectly tall, you know, almost perfect facial forms, facial structure, and a big, broad smile with 32 teeth, perfectly straight.
	And that, in fact, because we know from our ancestors that he looks more like our ancestors than we do.
	And see, it's not just this one guy.
	You find it in all the tribal groups.
	You know, the Australian Aboriginals, a lot of the Inuits, the guys walking off the Amazon jungle.
	You know, all of these indigenous peoples, they've all got fantastic facial development.
	They grow well.
	They have all 32 teeth, perfectly straight.
	They stand up straight.
	They don't need orthodontics.
	They don't need teeth taken out.
	I mean, whoa, I've got all my fingers on my hands.
	Am I just lucky?
	You know, and sometimes you need to ask these really basic questions of why, what's happened?
	Because we can make teeth straight.
	We know we can make teeth straight.
	I mean, in fact, you know, I studied as an orthodontist.
	I studied apparently in one of the top, easily one of the top five schools in the world.
	And probably for growth and development, the best school in the world.
	So I went to the Royal Aarhus Dental College in Denmark.
	And, you know, we really learned about the growth and development.
	But, and the science of orthodontics has been fantastic.
	You know, we've got these systems where we can make teeth straight.
	But we still want to ask out, you know, what else might be going on?
	And what I'm suggesting, and what now quite a lot of people are suggesting, and this is clearly, my father was probably the leading light in this, but a lot of people have come on board since, is that the faces of modern humans are not growing properly.
	And crooked teeth, sleep apnea, a lot of the otolaryngology or the ENT problems, and forward head posture, jaw joint issues.
	These things are all symptoms.
	So they're symptoms of a bigger problem that's going on.
	And this has caused me a certain amount of problems.
	Because I'm questioning the status quo within my profession.
	I'm questioning why we're doing things, what we're doing, and I'm also asking if there's potential negative effects from what we're doing.
	And that hasn't gone down very well.
	Well, I ran this campaign to have a debate on why teeth are crooked.
	I thought that was a sensible thing.
	I'm a professional.
	It's supposedly a scientific profession.
	And I've simply said, OK, so in, I think it was 1937, the General Dental Council held a debate on the etiology of malocclusion.
	You know, why are teeth crooked?
	And I felt here we were in early 2000s and 20s, 21, 22.
	In fact, I started this in 2009.
	And so I wrote at the editorial, a black swan in the British Dental Journal, in which I challenged my profession.
	I said, look, we need to have a debate on why teeth are crooked.
	I then start, so I wrote to the All Party Dental Committee, I wrote to the General Dental Council, what four separate chairs, I wrote to the Quango above the General Dental Council, the Royal Society, the British Orthodontic Society, I mean endless letters.
	Um, questions in the British Dental Journal, um, you know, what I did was I exhausted every sensible avenue, well, any avenue I had available to me, in my attempt to say, look, come on, we're a scientific profession, what are we doing?
	Why are teeth crooked?
	And, well, I got nowhere.
	Got nothing.
	I've got all these letters.
	They're online.
	I'll give you a link.
	It's all there for anyone to look at.
	Because I felt, you know, we should be, what do you call it, the Minister of Health and all the others.
	Everyone I wrote to.
	And I just said, look, we're spending a lot of money on orthodontics.
	We're treating, on the National Health, we're treating about a third of the population.
	If you add in private and adult treatments, it's easily above half the population.
	So we've got, and don't underestimate,
	the how invasive this this this thing is orthodontics just because everyone's having it done doesn't mean someone's you know it's not quite a fundamental thing to have done to you and we're doing it to over half the population in the developed world and sometimes more I had one girl who said that you know a patient of mine so she was having treatment
	And she said that everyone else in her class has racism.
	That's 100% of that class.
	Now, you know, I'm just asking for more scientific inquiry.
	You know, my grandad made some observations.
	My father came out with a very fascinating treatment system that deserves a deeper dive into.
	But principally, we should be asking some basic questions within my profession.
	And I'm, you know, It's a shame that doesn't move forwards.
	You've got me dying to know now.
	Why are our jaws not doing what they're supposed to do?
	I mean, I'd love to have teeth like a Maasai warrior, I have to say.
	I'd love to have a jawline like a... Yeah, but the two would go together, wouldn't they?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know?
	So, so the two things you know that, you generally, people with fantastic facial development, with the best architecture in the world, you know, the people that adorn the magazine covers, and are considered the most attractive people, generally have straight teeth.
	Yeah.
	Generally have space for all 32 teeth, and these big broad smiles.
	And the people with the, the, the faces that You know, it's such an emotive subject, James, you know.
	But, you know, I'm a scientist, so that's what I'm talking about.
	But people whose faces, let's say, haven't grown as well tend to have crooked teeth.
	That'll be me.
	So what's gone wrong?
	Okay, so the two biggies, I mean, you know, we could point to lots of things.
	You could point to the constituents in the diet, you could point to breastfeeding, early weaning, and I think there's potentially lots of these things are important, but the two really big ones is we've moved from this incredibly rough, tough, hard diet that, you know, to gain your calories every day, you'd eat whatever you needed to eat.
	Because otherwise you were going to starve to death.
	And we've moved over to this diet that is, well, you know, trying to cover the brand name on this cup.
	In this cup, I could easily get, what, um, three, four hundred calories.
	That's, what, a quarter of my daily calorific, not nutritional, but calorific intake.
	How much chewing do I need to do to get that on board?
	In a drink?
	Virtually none.
	So, you know, I'm not using these puppies here.
	So if you're not, it's use it or lose it.
	You know, I've got a strong jaw, a famously strong jaw, and famously strong chewing muscles from lots of chewing.
	Now, how are they related?
	You know, strong jaw, strong chewing muscles, because it's a system.
	You use it or lose it.
	It's the ultimate use it or lose it.
	So how do you get strong chewing muscles?
	Gum.
	Chew.
	Chew.
	Use them.
	If you have a very soft modern diet, you're not using your muscles, and the research on that is really clear.
	It's staggering.
	You talk to anthropologists and archaeologists, it's a done deal.
	Strange enough, it's the anthropologists and archaeologists who seem to do more research on this subject than the orthodontists and dentists have.
	Because they see it, you know, ultra-anthropology, they go, well, crooked teeth, sign of modern society, isn't it?
	You know, we dig up these ancient burial sites, they've all got straight teeth.
	We dig up these modern burial sites, they've all got crooked teeth and distorted faces.
	It's obvious.
	No question about it.
	But that, you know, it's interesting how orthodontics and these other sciences hold completely different viewpoints and never talk.
	But then the other biggie is we're getting blocked noses.
	Now, we all know we live in this polluted modern society.
	Now, it's not my area, but we're getting blocked noses.
	Now, if you're getting a blocked nose, you've got two choices.
	One is you pack up your bags and die.
	Fascinating how many SIDs Sudden infant death syndromes are these kids with these high palates.
	In fact, I think, um, uh, what's-his-name found every single one.
	Of SIDS, have these high narrow palates and little narrow faces.
	Fascinating fact.
	But, you either, you're going to die, or you're going to breathe out your nose.
	Um, you'll breathe out your mouth, sorry.
	So if you've got a blocked nose, you've got these two options.
	Now, for everyone who lives, what they've done, is they've taken the tongue off the roof of the mouth, they've dropped it down, they've separated the lips, they've separated their teeth, and developed an open mouth breathing posture.
	Ah.
	That's great, because when your nose clears, you can close your mouth, put your tongue up, and there's probably very little damage goes on, as long as you only did it for a short period of time.
	But that's not what happens.
	This becomes what started as an obligatory need so that you could breathe, then becomes a habit.
	And the suggestion that we're making is that if you hang your mouth open, Because that's become your habit, and you have weak muscles, then your face lengthens.
	It's a little bit like, have you seen someone who's had a stroke?
	So you've had a stroke, and now remember, that's just the surface musculature.
	That's just, you know, the muscles of facial expression, usually.
	Now, I've seen people who have had road traffic accidents, and that's cut the power nerve, the trigeminal nerve.
	And they drop, it's amazing how fast they drop.
	But just take people who've had a normal, everyday, household stroke.
	One side of the face, it drops down, and that face gets longer.
	It's predictable, it's reproducible, and it's relatively rapid.
	And what I'm saying is that most of modern humanity is like... Sorry, James, can I mention your face?
	Yeah, of course you can, yeah.
	So, you know, your face is longer.
	And it's dropped down, and if you've only got so much face, as it drops down, the cross-sectional area reduces.
	And you've got less space for teeth that are crooked, and slightly narrow dental arches.
	And that's you.
	You, description of you.
	And the problem is that, yes, you know, we get crooked teeth, we don't like crooked teeth, so you can make them straight, but hang around, crooked teeth is just, it's one symptom of this distortion.
	But if a face is distorted, there are going to be other problems.
	And you know, we've seen the incidence of crooked teeth escalate, but we've also seen the incidence of other things like sleep apnea escalate.
	You know, when I qualified as a dentist, that's my undergraduate, my first qualification.
	When I qualified as a dentist in 93 at the Royal London Hospital in the East End of London, Sleep apnea wasn't in the syllabus.
	There was something else with the term sleep apnea in it, and I remember that, so I know that sleep apnea per se wasn't in the syllabus.
	Now, I talked to a North London ENT surgeon About 18 months ago, and we're having a chat, and I said that I thought 10% of the population was going to die 10 years early because of sleep apnea and its consequences.
	And you said, I think it's more like 20.
	like 20.
	Now, we're not talking about, we just need to talk.
	We need to have the scientific process.
	I want to be able to engage with people in my profession and principally because of prevention.
	You know?
	I've got some interesting ideas and I could argue that I'm getting the best facial outcomes.
	You know, I'm making kids who come in to see me who are visually challenged And we're making them... I'm making them beautiful.
	You know?
	It's not cost effective.
	I can't really do it and make much money.
	That's a problem.
	But... and it's hard work.
	But basically you can break down what I'm saying to stand up straight and shut your mouth.
	That's not a new idea.
	You know, and you could, or you could, you could, you could take everything I've said so far, and you could describe it something like, shut your mouth or the wind will change and your face will set like that.
	New one?
	Yeah.
	None of this is, none of this is new, you know?
	Um, but it, it, it confronts an industry that, you know, who makes money, a dietician or a liposurgeon?
	Yeah.
	Right, now who's making the real health benefit?
	Yeah?
	Now I'd argue that the dietician doesn't even know when the committee meetings go on.
	And the liposurgeon who's bringing big bucks in, he's on the committee meetings.
	He's making big decisions.
	And realistically, the answer is dieticians.
	And the answer for what I'm saying is prevention.
	Literally.
	So I really think that simple public health messages could reduce this problem.
	What I'm saying is there's a problem with the way that faces are growing in a modern society.
	Go and see these indigenous tribes.
	Go and see how they look.
	Because they've grown well.
	And of course, I think people who grow well, they've grown to be healthy, We're hardwired to be attractive to healthy people, so we call this attractive.
	Good looking.
	And that's such an emotive thing, that everything I'm saying is just wound up with... You know...
	How can you get by this?
	I'm making people good looking.
	People who are good looking are healthier.
	You know, is good looks and health two separate sides of the same coin?
	I mean, it's very judgmental.
	You know, I've always been fascinated.
	I've had people come in, particularly, you know, ten years ago, before the internet, people would just come in to see me because they'd been told by an orthodontist they'd need four teeth taken out, and probably eight actually, because you're not going to get your wisdom teeth in either, probably.
	So, they come in to see me, they bring their child to see me, and they just want another method to make the teeth straight without taking teeth out.
	And I'm trying to explain what I'm doing, and the fact that I'm not going to... I'm going to try to change the way the face grows, so the face fits all the teeth.
	Rather than removing the teeth, just accepting the growth of the face, taking teeth out to match what the face has developed.
	Now, clearly, any, you know, a lot of mothers would understand what I'm saying, and they'd jump ahead and they'd say, you know, they've come in and they've literally laughed at little Johnny's teeth.
	Their mother's laughing, ha ha ha ha, his teeth are all over the place, what a mess that is, looks terrible, ha ha.
	But as soon as they twig that I've suggested that little Johnny's face hasn't grown properly, they stand up and express insult.
	They lose their sense of humour.
	And this is this thing, you know, and it's held this whole science back.
	It's faces.
	You know?
	I'm suggesting that most people... My face hasn't grown properly.
	Most people in the modern world's faces haven't grown properly.
	And in fact, you know, we can chart this back because, you know, you go back to the medieval period and, you know, up till the sort of 1400s, Faces weren't, it wasn't a perfect situation.
	They weren't like the, you know, hunter-gatherers.
	But right up to the medieval, end of the medieval period, nearly everyone had all 32 teeth in their head.
	They were more or less straight from when they were born to when they died.
	And they had reasonable facial proportions.
	And it has progressively gone downhill since, with the Industrial Revolution clearly being a relatively large turning point, and we're getting an exponential growth now.
	But we're also seeing this exponential growth in sleep apnea.
	What is sleep apnea?
	Sleep apnea?
	Well, it's not the most perfectly defined problem.
	And I would suggest that's because it's a symptom of something else.
	Like malocclusion and crooked teeth.
	It's hard to define malocclusion because I think it's a symptom of something else.
	The same way as sleep apnea, I think, is a problem for someone else.
	You know, there's lots of different definitions of sleep apnea, you know, we can have upper nasal restriction syndrome, or sleep disordered breathing, but basically what's happening is your tongue's going in your airway, and the more you breathe in, it just acts like a bung.
	So, and it's happening, usually people, well, it'll happen at night.
	People start, they're snoring.
	Remember, if you're snoring today, you've got a high likelihood of sleep apnea in the future.
	So take note of it.
	And of course, you can use those apps, you know, you can buy phone apps that listen to snoring.
	And it's a really good thing to do.
	Remember, knowledge is power.
	You know, I recommend everyone takes records, you know, it's vital.
	But sleep apnea is when you try and breathe in and you occlude your airway because the more you suck in, the more you pull your tongue in your airway.
	And of course, you're going to die now if you can't breathe.
	So what you need to do is pull your tongue forwards.
	However, you often need to wake up to do that.
	So what you're doing is you're fragmenting your sleep.
	And that is incredibly, incredibly bad for you.
	So the fact that your oxygen saturation falls way down as you as you're starting to occlude your airway, particularly after you've become used to this for a while.
	So, you know, constant, constant, you get used to it.
	So now your oxygen saturation has to drop right the way down before you are stimulated to wake up.
	And the fact that you are stimulated to wake up, and this can be repetitive, like 50 times in a night, obviously not as many, but let's say, you know, even, you know, you know yourself, if someone wakes you up, have you got kids?
	Yeah.
	You know yourself.
	You've only got to be woken up twice in the night to feel destroyed the next day.
	Yeah.
	If you're woken up 50 times in the night, you know, you're completely destroyed.
	And that then becomes a normal pattern.
	And this, you know, it stresses every system on the body.
	Massively, you know.
	It upsets your hormonal balances, it upsets your stress levels, it upsets your diet.
	You know, the old question, do people become obese and get sleep apnea?
	Or do people get sleep apnea and become obese?
	You know, you could make an argument both ways.
	The first way is a more common argument.
	But when you've had sleep apnea, you really crave the very foods that make you obese.
	Yeah, the comfort foods.
	But hell, you've had a terrible night, you know?
	Don't you deserve it?
	Yeah.
	No, I was just thinking, I remember once I did a speaker event in Southern California, and it was hosted by this guy who'd become a millionaire, if not a billionaire, selling devices for people with sleep apnea.
	And you're absolutely right, it's the people who are in on the cure for all these conditions, who are making all the money, and the people who are talking about preventing... Did you say cure?
	Well, okay, not cure.
	The people who are... yeah.
	Palliative treatment.
	Yeah, palliative treatment, exactly.
	Because, apart from my own messed up teeth and jaw and stuff, one of the reasons I'm very interested in your experiences and your story is that it aligns with so many of my other discoveries about the The morally bankrupt world of the food industry, of the pharma industry.
	For example, I mean, we needn't go into this one, but the cancer industry.
	They don't want to cure cancer.
	I mean, it would be a disaster if they cured cancer.
	Because, what, 80% of big pharma's profits are from the fear of cancer, followed by the treatments for cancer which don't actually stop you dying, but they just keep you on a sort of life support.
	And we know that there are ways of not getting cancer and dealing with it, but they've been suppressed in the same way that you... Yeah, remember, I'm a paid up member of the medical establishment.
	I've got to be...
	You know, James, I think there is concern that what you're saying needs to be looked in in more light.
	More light needs to be shone about this.
	And I think that it's a great You know, I don't like to, it just worries me.
	All I'm calling in my profession for is debate.
	The scientific process.
	And I'm shocked how it's got me nowhere.
	Literally, well it has got me somewhere.
	I'm up in front of the General Dental Council and they're trying to take my license away.
	Yes, well, tell me about that.
	I was shocked to read that.
	I think it's a witch hunt.
	I think you should be entirely free to pursue your interests.
	I mean, you seem to be doing good.
	The crazy thing is here, there's no suggestion of harming anyone.
	It's a philosophical debate.
	I mean, we've got three cases against me.
	The first case, the mother overjoyed with the treatment.
	I think the case has gone brilliantly.
	I mean, literally, I think I've taken someone who wasn't growing as well and I've transformed her life.
	Literally, the mother, mother and patient and the whole family overjoyed.
	With the outcome of his treatment.
	Absolutely overjoyed.
	Second patient down the line, well, I treatment planned the patient, I didn't treat them.
	Someone I employed, I was trying to employ a dentist, it was a vain attempt to try and expand my clinic.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, I struggled.
	You need to.
	It's the money thing.
	If you don't make money, how can I afford to employ a dentist?
	Because by regulation, no one else is allowed to do this except a dentist.
	It's all sewn up nicely.
	Then how do I... I can't afford to employ a dentist to come and do this.
	The only way I can make this treatment work is me taking a very low salary.
	It's the only way I can make it fly.
	But, you know, then I can't... I mean, I'm just... Hopefully, we're just getting to the point now where I can move forward.
	Anyway, I was employing a dentist.
	She actually did the treatment.
	I don't want... Clearly, this is the point.
	And this is... There's a really... James, this is a really difficult thing.
	I cannot tell you too much about what's going on because... Self-determination.
	And this is the whole, you know, I want to stand out and shout, this is wrong.
	This is wrong on so many levels, but I can't get into the details, so... I mean, you're stymied, aren't you?
	You know, it's like, this is how we do it.
	We're going to silence you so you can't stand out and say anything, and then we're going to slightly gut you.
	Are you allowed to tell me what they're trying to get you on?
	Well, they're trying to say so anyway that the second patient I didn't do the treatment mum I never got on with mum and What can I say?
	What can I say?
	They never went.
	Literally, a couple of months of treatment.
	It didn't go well.
	I didn't do it.
	Someone else did it.
	So, in theory, the only thing you can have a go at me about is the treatment plan.
	What we set out attempting to do.
	And, of course, it was a very similar treatment plan to patient A, the first patient.
	Well, if I got a result on the first patient, well, guess I should have been able to get a result on the second patient.
	I had it.
	They stayed in treatment.
	The third allegations is that this is a tranche of allegations.
	So I think it was something like 12 allegations.
	So one of the members of the one of the high up people within the British orthodontic society.
	Went through my videos, trying to find, you know, hunting for places where they felt uttered and said something that they could scientifically demonstrate was wrong and that I was misleading the public.
	Yeah.
	So they got 12 allegations.
	And it was the whole way it was done.
	I mean, you know, they didn't... You know, normally you'd expect... Remember, this is like my union.
	They're my union.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, the British Orthodontic Society.
	I'm a paid up member.
	You know, they provide me with resources and help if I get into problems.
	Now, what they've done is they've made a whole list of allegations and rather than phoning up and saying, look Mike, we're not very happy with what you're doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Maybe we could tone this down or we could do this or this.
	Let's have a chat about these.
	Rather than doing that, They wrote them down, now I know exactly what it is, now I know, they wrote it down in a strange way, they wrote it down as a General Dental Council legal charge sheet.
	You know, this allegation being broken, this is a rule broken, and I mean, all set up perfectly, so it could be copy and pasted by the General Dental Council into a legal action against me.
	I'm writing, you know, I was, you know, I tried to get the British Orthodontic Society to debate why teeth were crooked previously.
	Then they gave me a chance to defend these same allegations before they threw me out.
	And I said, you know, Can we, before, I can't defend those specific allegations, this list of 12 allegations made, without an understanding, an acknowledged understanding, that It's not a genetic problem.
	You know, all the evidence suggests, I mean, there's piles upon piles upon piles of evidence, suggests that this is something to do with our modern lifestyle.
	It's a lifestyle problem.
	You know, it's an environmental problem.
	It's not a genetic problem.
	And unless we get that, we have that as a general acknowledgement, I'm going to struggle to defend my case here.
	So we need that debate now.
	And also, you're a scientific organisation.
	That's what you should be doing.
	Having that debate.
	And to them, no, that was a red herring.
	And they threw me out.
	So I've been thrown out the British Orthodontic Society.
	And then clearly those allegations are already on the desk at the General Dental Council.
	And now I've got to defend them.
	The General Dental Council actually have looked at the allegations and they've whittled them down to two.
	So I think that says something about the allegations in the first place.
	However, those are the three allegations.
	Patient A, Patient B, and this list of allegations on the videos from my YouTube channel, Orthotropics.
	And you know, I would have loved to engage and discuss these things.
	In fact, I would love to give anything with the British Orthodontic Society.
	In fact, I would love to have a chat like this with any orthodontist on the planet.
	Any professor on the planet.
	You know, I just want to talk.
	I'm going to go through these things.
	I want an open, normal, genuine conversation.
	Like this.
	But I want to ask searching questions.
	And I want other people to ask those tough questions of me.
	I mean, maybe you're not in the position yet to understand the weakness and holes in my argument, but please, I want the tough questions.
	That's what I want.
	I want the scientific process.
	I want to think how we could do prevention.
	You know, Please support, promote, whatever, my campaign, Prevent Crooked Teeth.
	Because, you know, we've got this idea, we've got this concept, but it's not cost-effective.
	What's cost-effective is telling a child to eat with their mouth shut.
	The value of simply getting a child to eat with their mouth shut is... It's massive!
	Breathe through their nose!
	Chew some gum.
	Go and get some chewing gum.
	And after school, get your kids to chew gum.
	It's not rocket science.
	It's so goddamn cheap, this stuff's untrue.
	And the potential side effects?
	Well, you're not going to get jaw joint problems at under 10 years old, realistically.
	You know, why not?
	You know, I did a video the other day, the Five Point Prevention Plan.
	And I simply say, ask your kids to stand up straight and shut their mouth.
	Ask them to eat with their mouth shut.
	Chew gum after school.
	Lip tape at night.
	And take good records.
	I mean, it's just so simple.
	This isn't complex.
	And, you know, I really think this could have a major impact on how the faces of modern people in modern societies grow.
	I walk down to the corner shop here and I'm passing disaster, car crash, victim.
	It seems every single face I pass has been damaged.
	And that's either happened through ignorance or inappropriate treatment.
	Because if you don't understand the cause of the problem, because you don't also understand the pathology, you know, if you have an environmental influence, so if the environment influences how something happens, there must be a pathological process via which that happens.
	And simply not knowing is not an excuse, because you're not interested in finding out.
	Can I just pick you up on the chewing gum thing?
	It's very interesting hearing somebody with dental training singing the praises of chewing gum, because I'm pretty sure that when I was growing up, dentists were generally against chewing gum because it was, I don't know, the sugar was bad for your teeth and so on.
	And I was, well, there are two questions here.
	First of all, am I right that dentists generally are against chewing gum, aren't they?
	I mean, there were when I was younger.
	I don't hear people talking about it much these days, but you know.
	But do you think that the decline in chewing chewing gum may be partly the reason for this?
	I think food generally, our food's just got softer.
	I mean, I saw this wonderful diagram at a conference where they had In the past and the present.
	And they had a line going down of the amount of home-cooked food in the average house.
	Right.
	And of course, home-cooked food tends to be tougher.
	Less well processed.
	Mmm.
	And I think it's just that, you know, it's... for every calorie of... every easy calorie you get, you're going to have one less tough calorie.
	For example, if I give you a mouth bar, and what's that, about 330 calories, 300-400 calories?
	130 calories, 300 to 400 calories.
	Well, you're going to eat less food that day, or you're going to get fat eventually.
	You've got two things.
	Either your body system is going to understand you've taken more calories on, cut down your calorific intake for that day, or you're going to put on weight.
	There's only two options realistically.
	So, if you eat that Mars bar, those were easy calories.
	400 calories gained instantly with utterly no effort to gain that.
	So that means these muscles are going to do less that day.
	Because you took so many easy calories.
	Okay?
	Yeah.
	Now, sugar's hiding in everything.
	So those easy calories are going in everywhere.
	All around.
	Yeah.
	And so we're reducing the masticatory effort.
	You know, we're using our masticatory system less.
	And that's a use it or lose it.
	We know that if you go, if you use your car every day, rather than walking or going by the bicycle, that has an impact on your physical structure.
	And I'm saying the same thing happens when we don't chew.
	I mean, one of these fascinating things is that my, um, antidotes are my brilliant secret exercise.
	I say I've got this super secret exercise to help Grow people.
	You know?
	It's super simple.
	Really, really, you know, don't tell everyone this, James, you know.
	I say, well, we know that if you do a brisk 10-minute walk every day, you can reduce your chance of cardiovascular disease.
	You know, a heart attack.
	You know, it's well known, all we've got to do is get all of these old people to have a brisk 10-minute walk every day, and the reduction in cost to the national health is staggering!
	You know, it's crazy what this reduction, and the reduction of their mortalities and their problems, staggering!
	Stop it!
	I'm sorry.
	Ah!
	Do you know what, Mike?
	I get people grumbling about my phones in my podcast, and I cannot stop it.
	Hello?
	Oh, no, I'm in the middle of a podcast, Ratty.
	Please call back.
	It drives me up the fucking wall.
	And people say to me, people get angry about it.
	People attack me, saying, why do you do this?
	And I say, well, if I unplug my phone, I have to unplug my internet as well, or something.
	And I can't.
	Anyway.
	Unerringly, unerringly, they ring me during my podcast.
	Anyway.
	So, and you were about to tell me the really interesting thing, which is... OK, so what I'm saying is that it's simply, you've got to think, ten minutes every day for an adult could have a profound effect on their health.
	I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it.
	What is it?
	What is it?
	Just walking, just walking every day.
	Oh no, sorry, I thought you were going to tell me about the mouth exercise thing.
	The mouth exercise, okay?
	It's a super... So if I can get young children to do 30 to 40 minutes of a pre-described exercise every day, it could have a profound effect.
	That's a lot.
	30 minutes.
	Yes.
	For a child.
	So we've got this special exercise.
	And this special exercise is in a, um...
	A sort of situational specific situation.
	Okay?
	So what you do is when you're in this situation, you always repeat the same pattern of behavior.
	Because then that situation reminds you.
	And that's what we call this.
	So when are we going to be using the mouth the most?
	Well, when you're eating.
	So we're going to call this the Mealtime Exercise.
	Okay?
	So the Mealtime Exercise, super secret, don't tell anyone, right?
	It's sit up straight, Elbows off the table.
	Eat with your mouth shut.
	Yeah, that's a good one.
	Chew your food properly.
	Then remember, food to you, not you to your food, to keep your back sitting up straight.
	Yep, still got it.
	And then, after you've chewed your food properly, and don't speak when you're eating.
	It's a good one.
	Then, you chin tuck, and bite together and swallow.
	Now, I'll give you another secret here.
	Apart from that chin tuck, because everyone's got a forward head posture, that's not particularly new.
	It'll never catch on.
	It'll never catch on.
	Yeah.
	So I'm reinventing the wheel here.
	I'm just going to change the battery on my light, because otherwise people get a strobe effect.
	Yeah, there's a lot of wisdom in folk wisdom and tradition, isn't there?
	Yeah, I mean... I guess trial and error over a significant period of time is good enough to gain... some wisdom.
	Yeah.
	You know?
	And... You know, it's just... It's what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to get the message out to more people, because...
	It just, it really upsets me.
	You know, I, I wish I could get the school.
	I mean, problem is, this court case puts such immense pressure on you.
	You know, I, I, I decided so, um, in about, with 2009, I wrote this editorial, The Black Swan, and then I wrote, um, continued with letters and a letter writing campaign to just Get my profession to do the site, do the decent thing, you know, follow the scientific process.
	Yeah.
	Because it got nowhere.
	Um, then I, but in about 2010, I moved down to pearly where I've got my clinic and I move within a five minute walk, less than a five minute walk.
	So I can be here and I can really focus my time.
	And then, then I put, then I spent all my money.
	Um, my mother died to all that inheritance.
	Everything I've got I've just pumped into trying to create a center here where we change how faces are growing.
	But of course it's not easy to do that because As I said, who makes money, a dietician or a liposurgeon?
	Changing people doesn't make money.
	You know, for all the great concepts, the great ideas, the great appliances, sometimes I'm sat there with little Johnny, saying, are you gonna wear the brace?
	And Johnny goes, nah, I'm not gonna wear the brace.
	And where do you go?
	I mean... Yeah.
	You know, there's no amount of highfaluting philosophy or qualifications or research or whatever.
	Nothing is gonna persuade Johnny to wear his brace.
	And that's what it comes down to.
	And I've got to get him to try and swallow with his mouth closed.
	I mean, he doesn't like doing that.
	And most parents kind of... As much as... As much as... As much as I can engage them...
	Mentally, I gauged them with cognitive, you know, discussion, they still think, hello doctor, here's the money, make my child pay.
	Of course.
	Because that's what we've got in medicine.
	Yeah.
	You know?
	And I think that, you know, so another example, Jeremy, I make is, if I went outside on the street here and I got hit by a London Red double-decker bus, then I'd want modern medicine on my side.
	It's been absolutely brilliant.
	There was nothing like it, you know, anaesthetics, antibiotics, hygiene theory, you know, I don't want to get infection, you know, I want someone to wash their hands before they put them inside me.
	And, you know, I've taken on an ambulance and, you know, no doubt we have achieved absolute brilliant success with modern medicine.
	However, if I've got a chronic condition, well, almost by definition, then modern medicine hasn't fixed it.
	That's why it's chronic.
	And it's kind of about time we started looking for other explanations or other answers.
	And I think that would be the grown-up thing to do, that would be the scientific thing to do, to look at all of the chronic problems we have in medicine, because that's what's costing the money.
	You know, when you actually look at the cost of medical health, the acute problems, that's a very small scale of the national health.
	The national health is spending its money on all the chronic problems, and by definition, if a problem's chronic, you're not correcting it.
	Okay.
	And we just, you know, we need...
	To go through the chronic problems and just saying, OK, well, who else has got some ideas?
	And having that open debate about things and it's strange when you're in
	You know, me in my situation here, I start to see, I see orthodontics and the orthodontic profession from this particular angle, and that kind of wakens me up to looking at the other bits of medicine and how, well, you know, unfortunately I'm not completely alone in beating the drum and saying something's wrong here.
	Yeah.
	Well, you're not.
	I mean, there are parallel stories across the... I mean, I sense that you didn't want to talk about them, because you're still... part of you is wedded to the... you can't quite get rid of... No, I'm not completely wedded to them, but I'm just... I'm just getting disappointed.
	And I don't want my... you know, I'm just progressively getting more disappointed.
	And...
	No.
	Cognitive dissonance, maybe.
	I just don't want to, you know... I totally see where you're coming from.
	The more I look for her, the more worried I get.
	You don't need to fight the battles of other branches of medicine.
	You've got your own battle to fight, and that's fine.
	Can I ask you, Mike, never mind the kids, what about people like me?
	Is there anything we can do, we oldies, to Unruined.
	Well, this is the problem with adults is your bones so weak.
	Yeah, it doesn't have the growth capacity that is going to be very important in rehealing problems if any problems occur.
	Mm hmm.
	And you're now set in your ways.
	And you're set in your ways in two ways.
	First of all, you're set in the way because of muscle memory and those things we know.
	But also, if you think about it, you have... So, you've got a slight forward head posture.
	If you tried to chin tuck, possibly like this, you've got no airway.
	You've got no space.
	Because your face should be further forwards.
	And since your face isn't further forwards, You've got lack of space for your tongue, so effectively, I would say, this is my, um, postulation, you know, I've come up with this concept of craniofacial dystrophy.
	It's my suggested pathological process for these problems.
	You know, how faces aren't grown well.
	Craniofacial dystrophy.
	So, you've had to hold your head forward, because if you do that, you're constricting your airway.
	And you've got the angel on one side that says, well, what Mike says is really important.
	Stand up straight.
	Shut your mouth.
	New idea.
	That's what I really want to do.
	Yeah.
	You're the devil on the other side's going, breathe.
	So the problem is you've got this structural deficit.
	And your current posture, your current function, is the most comfortable to do in your current structure.
	Sure.
	So, changing is difficult, not only because of muscle memory, but because of what I call structural memory.
	So the structure, the memory of the structure you have, the memory inherent in the structure you've got, is diverting your patterns.
	Now, as I said, when I talked to that senior surgeon in North London, he said he thought that 20% of the adult population were going to die 10 years early because of sleep apnoea's consequences.
	And you don't want me to tell you where I think you are in that spectrum.
	Well, actually, you'd be wrong, because I do Bottega and I tape my mouth up at night, so I don't think your analysis is... Your pessimism is not justified, and also I'm sensing a gauntlet shut down here.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	You are, because you're telling me that I'm irreparable, and I'm saying... Well, you're suggesting that I haven't got the will to do the... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're jumping it.
	So, what I'm saying is that...
	It's, it's, you know, you've got the, you know, you would, what you'd need, realistically, to change, you would need a sudden dramatic change in structure, then enforcing postural and, um, functional changes with every single angle.
	Right.
	Okay, now I can start imagining what that's going to look like, but I think we're going to need a little bit more technological advancement.
	But, if 20% of the population are going to die, let's say this is an arbitrary number, in 10 years early because of sleep apnea's consequences.
	Well, that's where the real money is.
	That's where the real market is.
	These kids with crooked teeth, where we can look at prevention, we can start preventing them, correcting them.
	You've got this concept of, you know, I never heard of this concept of mewing. - Well, I wanted you to tell me about that.
	Yeah, OK.
	Well, I'll come back to that.
	But right now, if you're a teenager and you're a young adult, and if you can really get into mewing, well, that can really help you.
	But I think over about 25 years old, you're going to struggle.
	Because as I said, you know, our ancestors were only living on average till about sort of late 30s, 40 years old.
	So at 25, you've gone middle age.
	But this is where I've got to get the spotlight of modern medical research to shine on this problem.
	That's my goal because I've got lots of ideas and lots of...
	It's really, really, really hard to push this stuff forward.
	When I work just as crazy... I was getting to that point when I came down here a decade ago, and I've worked just crazy hard.
	And I've spent everything I've got, and I've pushed myself to my health is in... you know, my health's in bits.
	I didn't realise until recently how far I'd pushed my relationship.
	I've pushed everything.
	What I've got to do is I've got to stimulate the scientific process, because it's not going to be one person that comes up with all these answers, or even a family that comes up with these answers, or even a small team.
	We're going to need big teams of dedicated researchers to start unpicking this, because it's a massive problem.
	I mean, this is the biggest problem most people have never heard about.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, no, I'm with you, I'm with you.
	But people are going to be watching this podcast, and they're going to be thinking, this is really interesting, I'll get my kit sorted, but what about me?
	What can we do?
	Ultimately, mewing is the way forward, because that's actually trying to literally change your posture and function.
	Saying it's been caused by weak muscles, hanging your mouth open, well, you do the reverse of that.
	But then you get into problems like people getting jaw joint problems.
	Problems, as I said, when people are just too narrow, you know, they can't stand up straight because their tongue's in their airway.
	Or they're getting blocked noses so frequently that they can't, um, properly breathe out of their nose.
	And then you've got to... Sometimes you've got to make some type of intervention.
	to help them with that now clearly i'm i've been working i've been using appliances and actual mechanical systems to hype help try to change people but it's it's really hard me doing the research here you know i'm trying as hard as i can but you know and then i get the court case on top of me taking just thousands of hours of my time and you know nightmare it's a nightmare
	and because you know i had medical insurance so indemnity insurance and i got had one of the top indemnity insurance i i just i was worried that you know yeah you are different so So I had one of the top companies, I won't mention names, but when it came to it, and I met my defence team and I started going through things, you know, they were really good with all this, you know, the run-up, you know, this, this case is, it's five and a half years since this, the first case was first reported, so.
	There's been a lot of going on.
	And my indemnity, my insurance, the legal team provided my indemnity insurance.
	They were fine.
	They covered all of those, you know, all of the paperwork stuff, you know, the run-up to the trial.
	But when we came close to the trial, it was... I mean, it was simple.
	They were saying, well, where's your evidence?
	Your treatment works.
	We haven't got published research a day.
	That's it.
	You know, and everyone tells me you're wrong, and lots of these guys were trained as dentists before they went into legal work for legal dental work, and they're saying, well, we know you're wrong.
	You know, this is the way, everyone's against you, and it was just like, I'm going to lose this.
	These guys aren't, they're not going to give me adequate legal protection.
	It's not going anywhere.
	And I talked to, we had a christening, and I talked to a mate of mine, and he goes, you need this bloke, you need Stephen Vullo.
	and guys not cheap, but I tell you, he's brilliant.
	You know, that's the legal response I need.
	And so at least I'm going to have decent legal representation.
	And but that was my house, you know.
	This is getting ready to buy a house and there it goes.
	Off it goes.
	Luckily, I had that money.
	People should be free to come and see somebody like you.
	It's just outrageous.
	I would probably do it for free.
	I mean, I lose money anyway.
	I mean, I've lost massive money over the last decade.
	You know?
	Yeah.
	And you think, well, you know, your fourth decade in life and into your fifth decade, this is when you're supposed to be earning bucks to, you know, make a life for yourself, make your future.
	And I've lost money.
	Ah.
	I'm so sorry.
	Well, I hope that, um... Well, if you get... What can they do to you?
	I mean... Take my licence to practice away.
	They can't put me in prison.
	OK, and if they do that, what does it mean?
	You won't be able to do anything?
	I'll write a book or something.
	But what if somebody like me wanted to come along regardless and didn't care about your...
	You're not allowed to do that, then you can throw your job.
	Oh, for fuck's sake.
	And this is the thing, you know, because as a country, we've given dentists a legal monopoly.
	Yeah.
	Now, they were given that me-bullockery, and there was quite strict rules underlying that, that they shouldn't do precisely what they are doing.
	So, but, you know, no one's going to look at that in my court case, are they?
	That's, that's, um, it's a terror.
	No, of course not.
	It's a terror.
	Oh, you shouldn't be doing this.
	Oh, really?
	But we are, and here's the allegation list, and you've got to respond.
	Sure.
	But, you know, you can't, you can't give, give a professional legal monopoly unless you have, you try and lay out rules on how they should behave, and, but then they don't have to, they don't have to follow those rules.
	You know, we, you know, the scientific process will solve that if it's getting way of, you know, a good business.
	Yeah.
	This is really, really horrible and upsetting and so consistent with everything else I've learned about across the board.
	I mean, you are just an example in your field.
	But this is universal.
	And it's evil.
	It is absolutely evil.
	This is people protecting vested interests.
	It's closed shops.
	It's like mafia style.
	It's... it's... yeah, it's crooked, it's corrupt, and it's wrong, and I'm sorry for you.
	Yeah, well, but... I aim to win, James, and I aim to change all of this.
	I guess I'm naive and I'm a little bit stupid.
	But my aim is, you know, because if I can make... you know, sometimes...
	It's, you know, it's like they've got Al Capone on his tax returns.
	Sometimes it's a little odd subject, like orthodontics, that can spearhead the way forward to gain change in other places.
	Yeah.
	Because, you know, we could talk about lots of the more serious conditions, but only a few people get those conditions.
	And, you know, what's it to you?
	Do you really need to get involved when, you know, very unlikely you'll get that condition?
	But, crooked teeth?
	Well, most people are getting crooked teeth.
	Hmm.
	And really, what I'm saying is only really interesting to people with faces.
	However, if you happen to have a face, this is, it just, this is going to be one of the most interesting things.
	You know, you, you realising that that thing that is you, you know, your face, you know, when, when I go through, when I, um, enter a country and I hand them my passport, what bit of the passport do they look at to check if that's me?
	Your face?
	Mmm, the face, the face.
	Yeah.
	So, what looks back at any mirror anywhere in the world at me?
	Yeah.
	It is me, isn't it?
	And here's me telling me... James, I'm telling you, your face is wrong.
	It's not grown right.
	Mmm.
	I'm telling you, basically, that you're wrong.
	You haven't grown right.
	Yeah.
	And this is... Whoa!
	I mean, when you start unpicking these sort of arguments, it's just, you know, just absolutely crazy.
	So, tell me about mewing.
	How do I do it?
	How do we do it?
	Okay, mewing is trying to have your tongue stuck to the roof of the mouth.
	So, when you look at old textbooks on anatomy, they always have this little line that goes down to just above the top of the tongue, and it has negative pressure.
	And the idea is your tongue is supposed to be stuck to the roof of the mouth.
	Just before, you know, on that point, just before you put it down.
	Then you're supposed to have your teeth together, lips together, and then you engage the back third of the tongue.
	So if you watch my high-eyed bone, watch my Adam's apple.
	Sorry, I need a bit more fluid.
	So you're holding your Adam's apple higher up.
	And that's because you're holding the back third of your tongue higher up.
	And you could hold your back third of your tongue higher up there, you suck it into place.
	So, it's effectively... So if I just relax, and with my mouth open like that... That's comfortable, in that position.
	Now, if I engage my tongue and I suck it to the roof of the mouth, see how much better I stand.
	Then that's comfortable.
	That's actually where I want to stay.
	You know, people who keep saying, oh, stand up straight, do this, but it's uncomfortable.
	Probably using the wrong muscles, all these things with strings and shoulders.
	You know, most of them are fake.
	You know, they're not quite right and they're causing other problems in the way.
	But getting the back third of the tongue up, you can then hold it with some suction.
	And as long as you keep your lips together and don't allow that suction to be lost, you stand up straight.
	And that's mewing, and the profound effects on your whole body.
	I mean, for example, you engage the back of your tongue, push your head back a little bit, then all of a sudden, you could fall forwards, or you could fall backwards.
	Now you're in an equilibrium.
	Most humans are spending all the time with their head forward.
	So the muscles up your back are doing far too much, and the muscles down your front do nothing.
	And then we wonder why our tongue is hanging out.
	Well, you used to do that.
	Stand up straight.
	Start walking on the street.
	You're more or less instantly barefoot walking, without thinking how that happens.
	And you can feel your abs contracting.
	Bang, bang, bang, bang, as you're walking along.
	It just, wait, it just, it seems that as soon as you get this top segment, I mean, you know, I say the keystone.
	I mean, this area's the keystone.
	As soon as you get this top segment in place, you suddenly find how, without even thinking about it, You're, you're walking better, you're standing better, you're, you're, you know, your neurology's working better.
	You know, I've, I mean, I'm not here to give sort of crazy wild, um, benefits of things.
	It, it, I find it, it is interesting.
	You know, maybe I just stumbled on something that was quite useful.
	But I also want to see is I see these kids and this is what surprised me because I came up with this concept.
	I didn't term it Mewing.
	It just got termed Mewing on the ether somewhere.
	But I gave a lecture for a Someone called the 21 Convention.
	It was the type of lecture that I wouldn't have given if I'd done any research.
	Any research at all, you know.
	The other people around me were pick-up art- the other lecturers were pick-up artists and bodybuilders and, you know, it was all a little bit- I think what they're calling this, um, incels.
	It was a bit incel-related.
	Anyway, I- I didn't know.
	I mean, it was at the, um, Charing Cross Hotel.
	And my girlfriend was working in Soho.
	Yeah, in Covent Garden.
	And it was just so convenient.
	It was just right at the time, just before I would pick her up.
	So we were going to go out.
	So great.
	Fantastic.
	I did the lecture.
	And so if you want to Google that, you can you just Google Mike Mew 21.
	And I gave this lecture.
	And I knew it was to young people, because I'd asked them in advance.
	And it seemed to resonate with people.
	You know, I made a clear, logical argument.
	I think an irrefutable argument.
	I think what I'm saying is irrefutable.
	I don't have any evidence against what I'm saying.
	And these people jumped on The concept.
	And at the end of the lecture, I was sort of the throng of crowd around me of people saying, how can we make our faces better?
	And that's kind of not what I said in the lecture.
	I said that I was using appliances.
	I'm saying this was the problem.
	This is how I was correcting it, et cetera, et cetera.
	And then I was mobbed by these kids saying, how can I look better?
	I said, I said, you'd be crazy to try.
	It's so difficult.
	Change is such a difficult thing to do.
	However, I guess you'd be crazy not to try.
	Yeah, exactly, Mike.
	Come on.
	I'm sure my son must have been exposed to some of this because he now chews this Matcha, is it, gum?
	What's the... Mastic gum.
	Mastic gum, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Mastic gum.
	So he must know, but it's filtered out to the youth.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, who was it?
	It was in the papers the weekend on Saturday that Bella... Bella Hadid?
	Bella Hadid.
	Bella Hadid, yeah.
	Sorry, I'm just not... Yeah, yeah, we don't know about these people.
	So, um, she's mewing.
	And of course, I look on TikTok, you know, and I look at the, someone pointed this out to me, so now I do it once in a while just to feel good, but, um, I go to the hashtags on TikTok, and it was, um, the hashtag mewing has been seen 1.9 billion times on TikTok.
	And... Whoa.
	I think, you know, I'm gaining traction.
	You are.
	Yeah, it's going so, and I've got, I've got, finally I'm going to get a Mewing app, you know, because I've got quite a lot to say about this.
	And when I went and I produced these, um, I did, went on this 21 convention and I had, I, I then was, you know, we had a, we had an, uh, a Google Alert on my name, because Mike Mews is quite a, you know, there are not many Mike Mews around the world, it's quite a simple little name.
	So, we were picking up a, um, people talking about me and asking questions about the video.
	So I went and then supplied the answers to these questions.
	Mm-hmm.
	And then I put videos up for my patients, directed to the general ether, general world.
	And this is how the Mewing Craze got going.
	And I haven't actually put that much information up about what I was truly meaning.
	However, I then see images of people on the internet who have been mewing.
	If you Google, um, mewing before and afters, or mewing results, or something like that.
	Yeah.
	And you see these guys, and it's crazy.
	You know, you see this guy go, um, Vlad from Kazakhstan, and he's, you know, like this.
	And then you see him two years later.
	He's got a jaw like this, and you can see it's not fake.
	The whole of his facial structure has changed unbelievably.
	And here's Vlad, who's got the jaw.
	So there you are.
	He's chewing.
	And I just, you know, you can't put this back in the box, because it's clearly true.
	You can see the results.
	Then, you know, the letters I get from people who are saying just, it's really nice to understand their problem.
	You know, if you've got jaw joint problems, if you've got sleep apnea, if you've got, you know, I would say a lot of, a lot of the problems with this structure are related to it not forming the right shape.
	And if you've got crooked teeth, or you lack space for all 32 teeth, then you've got a problem with the way this grew.
	And that will have knock-on health effects.
	I mean, that's not so unreasonable to assume.
	But, yes, I wish I could get a little bit further within the medical community with that.
	Well, can I ask you something that I wondered earlier on?
	Who invented this idea that you need to take wisdom teeth out?
	I mean, presumably they're there for a reason.
	This is crazy, I mean, and this is, this goes, let me, um, um, row, row, row, row, row this all the way back to the court case as well.
	So, when I go in to this court case, everyone there, including until recently my legal team, but we're going to go the committee, who are going to make the decision, the opposite legal team, the independent lawyer, the clerk, even the guy who sweeps the floor, Think that wisdom teeth are just extra teeth we don't need any longer because they're being genetically wiped out.
	So they all hold a view that is wrong, scientifically wrong, and they're biased against me before we start.
	Everyone there will think that the way their face grew was genetic.
	So I'm going in, not only am I going into the lion's den, It was all set up by the, um, medical professionals.
	But also, I'm going into a loaded situation where everyone believes something that's completely wrong.
	Yeah.
	But, um, you know, wisdom teeth, you know, when you look at wisdom teeth removal, it started, um, I imagine about a hundred years ago.
	But like many things, like orthodontics, it would have started with richer people.
	You know, you've had people who, I call it downswung, so you're slightly downswung.
	Go and look at busts of Julius Caesar.
	Julius Caesar was downswung.
	His face had dropped down.
	Maybe not to the level where he's got clearly, obviously crooked teeth, we don't know.
	He wasn't smiling in any of those busts.
	But... Within the rich and wealthy, this has been going on for a long time, and I think that's another I'm not a great wordsmith, but I think there's another interesting aspect.
	You go back, it's interesting, you'll see a photograph from the late 1900s, so 18, sort of 90s, 1895, you know, Esquire Jones standing there with his prize ball.
	And then there'll be five or six farm workers.
	And you look at Mr Jones and his face has dropped down.
	He's got less, you know, he hasn't developed as well.
	And all the farmhands, fantastic facial development.
	Fantastic.
	And, you know, you've heard that time, that phrase, you know, she, they, she, often it's used, she has the common look.
	Well, because she's really beautiful!
	But it's like all the common people are.
	Hmm.
	And you talk about him having distinguished features.
	You know, he has a noble nose.
	Right.
	Why do people have big noses that stick out?
	Because the rest of the face has collapsed!
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So why have you got a big nose?
	Yes, clearly there can be genetic variation.
	You know, this is the only time I've ever banned someone from YouTube.
	I don't even look at the YouTube thing.
	But when I first started, I did one on the Roman nose.
	And someone was claiming that I was racist because actually it was a Jewish nose and the whole thing went off.
	My first experience of internet nonsense.
	But I think there's a way, because it was the noble, distinguished, educated people whose faces weren't growing well, initially we had this sort of Almost desire.
	And because they were the ones that could afford orthodontics, the rich people.
	They were the ones who not only could afford it, but they were the ones getting it.
	Because they could afford to live off milk and honey.
	Yeah.
	And they were the ones first getting these problems.
	So, it's a little bit when you get these, like, counterculture things.
	Like, where are we?
	We used to be Rubenesque, used to be attractive.
	Then, as everyone became fatter, well, we wanted skinny.
	Because you always want what we can't get.
	Then we used to have pale and pasty skin was attractive.
	Then we went to the form where we've got a, you know, because that meant you weren't out in the fields.
	And then all of a sudden that meant you were in the office and you weren't on holiday on a beach somewhere.
	So it's, you know, and I think that These, I don't have words for these things, but these traits, I have, they're counter traits, you know, we find this more attractive, and you know, it's often what's less available.
	Yeah.
	But I'm sure that affected people's viewpoint, and of course it was the rich and privileged who could get their teeth, were having their teeth removed, and who could afford to have their teeth removed, and I imagine that happened about a hundred years ago.
	Or it may be earlier.
	Yeah.
	It's a mess.
	It's a hot mess.
	Um, so, okay, so, um, this will be very interesting.
	So, if we can put in the effort, we mew and we chew gum.
	Yeah, stand up straight.
	Chew, mew and stand up straight.
	Yeah, you're sounding like Jordan Peterson now.
	Well, it's fascinating that he in his first Rule of Life talks about the psychological importance of standing up straight.
	I don't quite, you know, he talks about shoulders back.
	Actually, Jordan, I'd love to have a chat with you about the details of that from a medical perspective, but the basic, you know, the broad overall viewpoint is spot on.
	And, you know, I think that When I'm... I was talking earlier on about, you know, you... I think when you're mewing and you've got proper placement of your tongue, I think there are neurological benefits from that.
	And I think that's where I'd cross with Jordan Peterson and say, yeah, I totally agree with you.
	And I think it has real profound differences.
	But I've been... I've been having a half-arsed attempt at mewing now and again.
	Do you produce extra saliva when you do that?
	A lot of people say that when they first start, yeah, because what you want to be doing is swallowing a lot in the correct way to gain the vacuum to get your tongue stuck to the roof of the mouth.
	But if you lack tongue space, you get your tongue on the roof of the mouth, teeth together, and chin tucked, you've got no airway space.
	And in that group, which is probably a very large group, well, they're gonna need that helping hand to get out of that hole.
	And that's where I want to get the spotlight of modern medical research.
	On this area, because it's desperate.
	You, you definitely... The rates of sleep apnea are going up like this.
	Sleep apnea, as I said, it wasn't in my syllabus in the 80s, and it's now late... what, 80s?
	No, 93 I qualify.
	So, and it's... we'd be late 80s.
	So, and it's gone up.
	There's absolute epidemic proportions, along with lots of other ENT problems, forward head posture, jaw joint problems, um...
	It's no one saying what's happening.
	All of these problems associated with the same parts of the face are going up, and they're parallel each other, a bit later each one, but... Yeah.
	And then, you can take, you know, listen to what Professor Sheldon says.
	Professor Sheldon from Chicago, you know, one of the top guys in paediatric sleep apnea in the world.
	He's saying, there's no such thing as ADHD.
	The kids who can't breathe at night.
	Mm.
	If you've ever had, let's see, not one, but if you've got three or four kids who are all sleep-deprived, how do they act?
	When they start bouncing off each other, they look just like kids with ADHD.
	Just like them.
	Now what do we give to kids with ADHD to calm them down?
	Ritalin.
	Amphetamines.
	Uppers.
	Keep them awake.
	Yeah, good point.
	You see?
	Now, I don't, you know, you may have a good point, but then, if that's true, and we've got sleep apnea rumbling up like this, well, maybe this rapid rise in, um, people on the spectrum is related to just the kids, they're not sleeping properly.
	Yeah.
	They're not getting a decent night's rest.
	And the compound effect of that, night upon night upon night, was gonna be something.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And, you know, as I said, when you really look at this, you know, prevention.
	That's what we should be looking at.
	I just, you know... You need to... Mike, you talk a good game and I think you're fighting for truth and justice.
	You need... I'm trying.
	No, you are.
	And I can see that it's taken its toll on you.
	You need to find...
	Somebody who's clever enough to be able to say, Mike, this is how your app will monetize you.
	Because you need, you've invented something brilliant or rediscovered something brilliant.
	Yes.
	And codified, I think.
	Yeah, you've codified it.
	And it's really important that you get support in your work and financial support.
	And I think the only way, you know, what you've mentioned about, what you've mentioned about the response of the kids That's that's where you're going to make your money.
	You've got it.
	Well, that's why I said, you know, I mean, I know that, James, and actually after this 10, 11 year slog, you know, damaging.
	So I've got Crohn's disease and at the moment I eat.
	My diet is such a simplistic monk like diet with no alcohol, no everything, just so that I don't because of my Crohn's disease.
	And you've got Crohn's?
	Oh, blimey!
	That kicks off with stress.
	Have you tried Bottega?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd say keep at it, because it's got me through some hard times.
	I was supposed to have, literally, at 11 o'clock this morning, I was supposed to be interviewed by Patrick McKeown, who is a good friend of mine, who I've known for years, who's one of the leading proponents of Buteyko.
	There it is.
	Yeah, and he teaches, I would rent the room upstairs for him.
	But this effort, I'm now going to cut down on the patients I'm seeing, I'm going to cut out adults for a short period of time, I'm going to cut the clinic just to the most simplistic element that is reproducible, simple, and I can, you know, I need to stop making, you know, all this inquiry, trying things on You know, I get so many people coming, they're really, really, you know, they're desperate for me to treat them.
	And I just have to now say no, because yes, I could help you, I could improve your situation, but stick to something simple for my own sake.
	Because the hassle and the stress and the working so hard and not making money, it is hard work, that.
	So I'm going to cut down and focus more on these other things, like these mewing apps, these other apps, and I'm going to try and gain governmental change.
	I want systemic change within the system, because if I can get systemic change in this small little area of orthodontics, well then I think I can work that through to other areas as well, because, you know, I mean, as you were pointing out earlier on, there are other problems in medicine.
	I know that.
	And I want to do something about that, and I want to try and push my profession into a brighter path.
	I'm with you.
	Look, lots of people watching this, Mike, are going to be wishing you all the very best.
	You're a good man, and you're doing great work, and thank you for sharing.
	That's OK.
	It just needs more media attention.
	This whole thing.
	This is it.
	Your moment has come.
	You're on the Deling Pod, mate.
	You've made it.
	This is peak Mew.
	You know, three generations of Mew have worked towards this moment where Mike, the grandson, appears on the Deling Pod and everything is magically restored.
	It's great.
	It'll be good.
	So, it's been good talking to you.
	Thank you very much.
	I'm going to go and, listen, I'm going to go and look up MikeMew21, and I'm also going to, I'm going to learn how to mew, and I'm going to do some mewing.
	Yes.
	I wish you all the best.
	The problem is that old jigs, dogs, new tricks.
	And if you don't get some change in the sky, I'm sorry.
	Look, stop it.
	Stop being so negative, man.
	Give us hope.
	We want hope.
	People want hope.
	OK, well then, James, take good records.
	Yeah.
	Take nice photographs in profile, in repose, so not making, at a decent distance.
	You know, I talk about it on my YouTube channel, particularly in that five-point prevention plan, but, um, or, you know, come here because we've got 3D cameras, so we can take your face with 3D cameras, and we, you know, I'm trying as hard as I can to be as scientific as I can to follow, to be as pure as I can in every respect.
	It's got to be worth it.
	Um, yeah.
	I hope so, you know.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, well, I like the fact that you've got strong jaws and, you know, I'm quite envious of that.
	Well, that helps.
	I mean, sure, that's helped the message.
	Bastard.
	But, you know, I'm generally regarded within my profession as a known charlatan.
	As a what?
	Known charlatan.
	Oh, well, they can fuck off.
	Seriously, Mike.
	They seriously can.
	Absolutely, they can fuck right off.
	Anyway, I've got to go now, because the Hunt is meeting outside our church, and I've got to go and look at them in their splendour.
	So, thank you very much for being on the Delling Pod.
	That's OK.
	Is there anything you want to...
	Well, please support the Prevent Crooked Teeth campaign, and there's some places there where you can donate to the cause if you so wish.
	And then when the Mewing app comes out, please buy a copy, because that will help out.
	Definitely.
	Definitely.
	Is that going to be soon?
	Yeah, sort it out, mate.
	Seriously.
	I'm an orthodontist.
	Yeah, I know.
	Well, this is the problem.
	We're not very good at this kind of thing, you and me.
	I can tell.
	No.
	Get the app out.
	OK.
	My beloved listeners and viewers, just Let's be honest here.
	They are trying to close me down.
	They don't want people like me or Mike, indeed, to make a living and they will put all sorts of obstacles in your way.
	So whichever way you can support me, whether it's on Locals or Substack or Subscribestar or Patreon, please try and get it past your bank and fund me because this is my sole source of income.
	And you don't want me not to be doing this stuff.
	You really don't.
	You want to be supporting me just because you like what I do.
	I mean, never mind the perks.
	So, please, get off your arse and do it, OK?
	Seriously.
	Thank you.
	Mike, thanks a lot.
	That's OK.
	Cheers, James.
	Listen, thank you very much for having me on your show.
	I hope this will lead to maybe bigger, better things or even coming back at some point.

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