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April 14, 2022 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:36:27

Jerm Warfare

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	I love Denny Paul.
	Come and subscribe to the podcast, baby.
	I love Denny Paul.
	And listen another time, subscribe with me.
	I love Denny Paul.
	Welcome to the Denny Paul with me, James Denny Paul.
	And I know I always say I'm excited about this special guest, but how could I not be excited?
	I've got Germ Warfare.
	And Germ, this has been really too long.
	You had me on your show.
	I should have had you back.
	And it's only because I'm not very efficient that I didn't.
	But I do love you a lot.
	Seriously, brother.
	That's okay.
	The feeling's mutual.
	And I was very... How are you?
	I'm all right.
	I was very impressed.
	Actually, I didn't have to get my son to make me a cup of tea.
	You're drinking a cup of tea or whatever you're drinking.
	Are you drinking whiskey?
	Coffee.
	Coffee.
	No, no, it's too early.
	It's too early for whiskey.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Um, I, um, what was I saying?
	Uh, I've got to stretch a bit on my tea thought.
	You said you have to get your son to get you a cup of tea.
	Yeah, I did.
	No, what I was going to say to you was I was really impressed that you managed to bag a double, uh, double bill with, with Robert F. Kennedy and Katherine Austin Fitz.
	Well, it's because they know each other quite well, so there's great rapport between the two of them, and I happen to have had both of them on my podcast before, so I was very fortunate.
	I've started to notice, now I've gone down the rabbit hole, that there's a quite limited number of us.
	Welcome.
	I think there are a lot more than you think.
	They're just silent because they're scared.
	Yeah, there is that.
	And also, there are actually people out there who would be really, really good podcast guests that They've sort of fallen through the cracks or they're on slightly sort of, they're out on a different wing of our movement, say.
	So for example, the other day... In what sense?
	Well, the other day, I'll give you an example.
	The other day I discovered, and I should have known about him ages ago, Alexander Waugh.
	Do you know about Alexander Waugh?
	No, tell me more.
	Okay, so I haven't even approached him yet.
	Okay, so Alexander Waugh is the grandson of Evelyn Waugh.
	And, you know, Evelyn Wall, yeah?
	Novelist, like one of the greatest early 20th century novelists in English literature.
	I mean, he's, I think he is about the finest, one of the finest pro stylists there is.
	Anyway, yeah, yeah, he was very successful.
	But the point is that Alexander Wall was a bit like me.
	He was a sort of jobbing journalist and critic who was, Having a perfectly reasonable living in the normie world, and suddenly he fell down the rabbit hole.
	And his rabbit hole, which we're not going to talk about today, but it is an interesting rabbit hole, is William Shakespeare.
	Or rather, Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, who really wrote most of Shakespeare's work.
	You listen to his podcast and it becomes an absolute, it becomes so obvious that Shakespeare was a construct.
	I didn't want to talk about Shakespeare, but it's just an example of how there are different roots I mean, we know that there are many tunnels underground, but there are different entry points, aren't there, where we bunnies can go down, follow them down.
	So he did it through Shakespeare.
	Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting point that you make, James, because The idea of a rabbit hole shouldn't be strange.
	I mean, 2000 years ago, or however many thousands of years ago, you had some people plotting to take out Julius Caesar.
	And if anybody had got wind of it, they would have said, ah, that's a conspiracy theory.
	That's not true.
	It's not going to happen.
	Don't go down the rabbit hole.
	And the next thing you find out, he gets killed.
	I mean, this is pretty normal human behavior.
	In fact, I think Not going down a rabbit hole is abnormal.
	Well, we can agree on this shit now, but look, it brings us back to the perennial question, which is how do we red pill the normies?
	And the answer is, I'm afraid, that you cannot truth bomb normies into awakeness.
	It's a personal journey.
	Oh, well, some of them you can.
	Some of them you can.
	I mean, Matthias Desmet says that... Go on.
	Well, so Matthias Desmet says that about 30% of people you're simply not going to go anywhere with.
	But he reckons there's that sort of 40%, 30 to 40% in the middle who just need to be nudged.
	And so those you can.
	And by doing what you're doing right now, for example, is exactly how you do that.
	Hi there.
	Can I have a cup of tea, please?
	Oh sorry, can you ask Ivan to make a cup of tea?
	Thank you.
	Yeah, no, you're arguing a slightly different point.
	I'm not saying that there isn't a certain percentage which is susceptible.
	That's a given, otherwise we'd all have to kill ourselves now because it would be hopeless.
	I'm not saying that there are people who are ripe for conversion.
	What I am saying is if we called them into our Studios now, one by one, and try to present them with some killer bit of information, which would suddenly make them go, wow, I've been brainwashed.
	I've been deluded all this time.
	And now you've woken me up from my stupor.
	It wouldn't happen.
	They have to make that decision.
	And it's the you never know what the trigger point was.
	So that's why the Alexander War thing was so interesting that for me, for example, What woke me up was starting my research into the environmental movement, but I was only half awake there.
	I gave all the answers in my book, but I didn't take them on board myself to their full extent.
	What woke me up were the shenanigans, bizarrely, over the Trump election, or over the Biden election.
	Now that's kind of a An odd Red Bull moment, I think, because I think for most people it's more obvious things like 9-11 or Kennedy or the moon landings, whatever.
	The whole Biden thing was quite a low-key conspiracy relative to some of the really, really big ones.
	But you don't know.
	You just don't know what is going to tickle people's fancy and pique their curiosity.
	Yeah, it's, you're right, it's the journey, it's the personal thing.
	What I was meaning, I was saying that you just have to keep saturating people's environments with ideas that you think are superior.
	And perhaps, like, I don't know, if you throw a handful of darts at a dartboard, like one of them is bound to stick.
	Yeah, what do you think?
	So I wanted to share with you a, do you listen to London Calling at all?
	You know, the podcast I do with Toby Young.
	Uh, no, no.
	Some people... I know of it though.
	I know of it.
	It's, it's kind of, it's a bit like my, I use it as my ground bait to chuck it into the water and, or it's my, um, it's my, it's the gateway drug for normies.
	It's like they, they get lured in by trusting, trusting Toby.
	He was a normie.
	And then occasionally some of them... Sorry, your, your chair, your chair behind you just fell over in the, on the grass.
	Oh, because it's, well, yeah.
	Well, that's cool, isn't it?
	It's a bit like... That was quite funny.
	It's a bit like the huge black panther that people occasionally see.
	The beast that wanders across my lawn.
	I only wish you could see the lambs frolicking and gambling in the fields beyond, because they're one of those sights that really cheers me up every year, even though, you know, I've seen it for 12 years now.
	But I never fail to have joy in my heart when I see all the lambs, particularly the bit where they form gangs.
	In the early days, they stick with their mummy and you go near them and instantly they run to mummy's teats for comfort.
	But then later on, especially in the evenings, they form these gangs and they just kind of run around in circles and things and just like gangs of teenagers having fun.
	Anyway, I derailed your conversation.
	I'm sorry, but that chair was hilarious.
	That's cool.
	What were we talking about before?
	You were talking about getting a bunch of people into a room, normies, and how to red pill them.
	So we have different routes.
	I think the biggest problem that people have is they've been brainwashed since Well, since birth, by parents starting off who also believe the normie narrative, they then get to schools and they get taught the official history of the world.
	And I've developed this theory recently as I've become more and more extreme and loopy and dangerous, as normies would see me, you know, like whatever happened to James Dellingpole.
	And I've come to the conclusion that The amount we're taught about stuff is in inverse proportion to its truthfulness.
	So, for example, Who are we told are the most significant figures of, say, the early 20th century?
	Who are the people who we should really value?
	Well, Freud.
	Freud, of course, is really important and he taught us how to understand our mind in a way that had never been understood before.
	And Einstein.
	E equals MC squared.
	I mean, nobody apart from a few kind of, you know, science wonks knows what E equals MC squared actually means, but everyone pretends they do because it's like, and it's an article of faith among all of us that E equals MC squared is really important and it had something to do with Did it with with with the atom bomb, you know, which was a really important project.
	And then there were the moon landings and they were they were like a really major leap for mankind.
	No, no.
	Stop that.
	Stop that.
	It was really important.
	And we all know Neil Armstrong.
	And I mean, I had an actual astronaut come to lecture at my school to talk about about what it was like landing on the moon.
	And I remember it well.
	He was called John Irwin.
	John Owen, I think.
	And I bought his book, or rather my dad bought his book, because, you know, you can just put it on your bill at the end of term.
	And he wrote in the book, God walking on Earth is more important than man walking on the moon.
	And knowing what I know now, I think there was a kind of, a bit of, well buyer's remorse is not quite the phrase, but here is a guy, he obviously found God, and I'm thinking, yeah, why would you be writing that in a book?
	Maybe it's because you didn't actually walk on the fucking moon.
	Yes, and did you see Neil Armstrong?
	Yeah, Neil Armstrong did something similar when he gave that That one speech, I forget all the details of the speech, but I remember initially seeing it on Joe Rogan's show.
	And again, the point is that Neil Armstrong in front of an audience gave a very weird kind of cryptic message also.
	I mean, James, if you're going to be part of the team that did probably the greatest thing in human history, right?
	I mean, how many people have Apparently left Earth's surface, what, 600?
	When I say surface, I mean, sorry, the atmosphere.
	So let's say what, 600 and 700 people max.
	And so that's a very small number of people.
	And if you're one of that even small handful of people that walked on the rock that's above Earth, surely you're not going to speak cryptically.
	Surely you're going to be celebrating like there's no tomorrow.
	I mean, it's a pretty massive feat.
	You you would think which is why I'm sure you've listened to those deconstructions of interviews that that Neil Armstrong gave when talking about about what it's like going to the moon and he kept going into the into the um second person you know you you do this or um No, it would be like, yeah.
	And then I got out of the spaceship and it was just like, so weird.
	All around me, I could see this blackness, but these pinpricks of light, more intense than I'd ever seen before.
	It didn't do any of that.
	Now, I've got some tea now.
	Buzz Aldrin was also somewhat cryptic in a few of his interviews.
	It's just weird.
	It's just strange why they were all so vague.
	Yeah.
	You see, the charitable explanation, or rather the normie desperately convinced by the lie explanation, would go something like this.
	These are not ordinary men.
	They were selected for their coolness under fire.
	They're all sort of ex-test pilots and things, and they're unflappable, but also unemotional.
	And because of their scientific training and their scientific background, They weren't quite capable of as articulating emotions as us.
	Of course, of course.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Which probably explains why Neil Armstrong became an alcoholic and went away from the public eye for two decades, or whatever the number of years was.
	Imagine what it must be like.
	I mean, no wonder they had to be selected very carefully, because the real selection was not about their physical suitability or their intellectual aptitude.
	It was about, can these guys accept having to live a lie for the rest of their lives and to be fated For something they didn't actually do.
	I mean, that must be such a weird experience.
	You'd crack up.
	You'd pop yourself.
	I think you're right.
	That was one of the big ones.
	But I think you skipped JFK.
	I mean, that assassination is a pretty pivotal moment, particularly in terms of the Red Bull concept.
	I mean, that was the era of the weaponization of the term conspiracy theory.
	You know about the CIA and how they, after the Warren Commission report, where they decided to try and go after All those people who are criticizing the official story, you know, I mean, they even infiltrated, I mean, everybody knows Operation Mockingbird.
	It was a real thing.
	But at the time, at the time, if you had said anything, you would have been labeled a conspiracy theorist.
	And it's still, it's still very effective even, even now.
	Yeah.
	It's completely effective.
	It's, When I started out, probably you had the same experience.
	I thought to myself, well, look, you know, obviously I understand that this conspiracy theory is true, but those other conspiracy theories out there, they're, you know, there's a bad conspiracy theories.
	Those are for the crazies.
	And then as you examine each one in turn, you realize, no, actually these ones are, these ones are true too.
	But I mean, I still struggle with this idea of using the term in a pejorative sense.
	I've never quite understood it, because if you're labelling somebody a conspiracy theorist, what you're effectively doing is trying to discredit or silence them.
	You're saying, I don't appreciate what you have to say, so I'm going to label you something, and racist doesn't work right now, so sexist doesn't work right now, so I'm going to use conspiracy theorist.
	What it says is that you actually are not thinking critically, because if you assume that people do not act nefariously, then you're living in some kind of utopian nonsense fairy tale, because everybody conspires on a daily basis.
	World War I started off With people conspiring.
	World War II, every single war, in fact, is about conspiring.
	You know what I mean?
	It's just different levels of conspiracy.
	I think the problem is that people don't like established narratives being challenged.
	A lot of the, as you say, the normies, they don't like their views being challenged because they don't want that carpet to be pulled out from underneath them.
	But if we can agree that JFK's assassination was not according to the official story and there were CIA links, You know, linking Leo Harvey Oswald, etc, etc, etc, right?
	Then if one story that's official is not true, then you can assume that many others are also not true.
	Yeah, but Jim, you can say that and I can say that we can we can say we're perfectly cool about being conspiracy theorists because we know we're right.
	But actually, we do have to live in the real world with many of our loved ones are our norm, most of our loved ones are normies.
	And given that our holy mission is to try and bring them around, we have to kind of accept The terms of debate are to some degree decided by people who are not in our camp.
	It's a bit like when you're talking about conspiracy theorists and why we should we should rehabilitate it and, you know, reclaim it for ourselves.
	It's a bit like those people who say, I want to reclaim that wonderful word gay, meaning happy.
	Yeah, well, sure, it is.
	It is happy.
	Are you happy?
	But you're going to struggle.
	It would be nice living in that world, but it doesn't exist.
	And I think it would be a fruitless struggle to try and get that word back.
	So I think we've kind of got to work with the material that we're given and we have to.
	And I mean, I think.
	Yeah, I was going to say, and I think the term conspiracy theory is just a pejorative.
	I mean, you can use any term, but basically you don't even have to use the term.
	You could just simply question something.
	Let me give an example.
	Pretty much most of the world.
	Actually, I'm not sure.
	I'm not sure.
	I'm just going to thumbs up.
	But I think most people who I've interacted with over the years probably still buy the official 9-11 story.
	There's one that we all remember.
	This isn't some weird moment in history that we have to read about in the history books.
	You and I were there.
	Well, not there, but we were around and we remember it.
	Let's start off like this.
	Yeah.
	What were you doing that day?
	Can you remember?
	Oh, totally.
	I remember it all.
	Because I had Lodger at the time, who lived in my basement.
	I used to call him Lodger.
	And Lodger came up from the basement and said, you've got to see this.
	Something amazingly weird is happening.
	I'm not sure quite what it is, but come and have a look.
	So I watched this thing.
	I think I possibly watched the second plane hit the second tower.
	Yeah, everybody missed that first plane.
	Yeah, even at the time, I thought...
	The optics didn't look right.
	If you had to imagine what it would be like for a jet full of fuel hitting a tower, it didn't seem to do what it was supposed to do.
	I haven't spent enough time on the 9-11 rabbit hole to work out whether they were holograms or whether it was actual planes or what, but it did look odd.
	Well, I think the point is that if you accept the official story, then you're not really concentrating or thinking terribly much.
	The easiest thing to do for anybody is just to go and have a look at some footage of Building 7.
	Ignore the Twin Towers, ignore everything else.
	Just go and watch Building 7 because everybody forgot about that.
	I mean, it fell five hours later into its own footprint within seven seconds and nothing flew into it.
	It just fell because of supposed office fires, which of course has never happened before at any other point in history for that kind of building.
	If that doesn't make you wonder things, okay, then let's just talk about something else.
	But if it does make you wonder things, It's funny you say that, because when I was writing for The Spectator, and people sort of down the rabbit hole would occasionally write to me saying, you know, like, you're getting there, but you've got a long way to go when you dismiss 9-11 as a kind of crazy conspiracy theory.
	Look at Building 7.
	And I have to say, Building 7 is not the killer thing that got to me.
	People's brains are funny.
	What about 9-11?
	What was the killer thing?
	The killer thing was possibly the report into how jet fuel can't melt girders, that kind of thing.
	But you know what, I think it's partly dependent on what podcast you listen to and there's a lot of, you could waste a lot of nut life worrying about 9-11 and actually it's not my favourite conspiracy theory.
	My favorite one is Antarctica.
	No, but Whitney Webb made the point.
	She was on my podcast last week and she made the point that the fact that people had closed their eyes to the 9-11 fraud, the entire narrative fraud, she said, that has led us to a place where we are now.
	She said, if a lot more people Had looked into that then already, could have avoided perhaps the last two years because it's all linked.
	It's all interconnected in terms of how willing you are to challenge official narratives.
	And it doesn't mean that every official narrative is false, obviously not, but you need to question every established narrative because you need to challenge it and you need to triangulate and find where the truth is.
	And imagine if everybody a year later after 9-11 had completely rejected the official story.
	We might have ended up in a different position today.
	Oh yeah, but you can say that about everything that we were told one thing and it turns into another one.
	You could definitely say that about Kennedy.
	Yeah, for sure.
	The Kennedy one, I listened to a very good podcast called Everything is a Rich Man's Trick.
	I don't know whether you've listened to that one, but it goes into great detail about the... I think they had an eight-man kill squad.
	Um, just positioned all over the, you know, either side of the, you know, some on the grass, you know, some in, in a, I think the ones that got him were, were, were hiding in a storm drain.
	I think, I think, but there are all sorts of weird... Lee was the, yeah, Lee Harvey Oswald, but he was just the, um, the setup.
	He was the patsy, yeah.
	And then you had things like, um, One of the team, I think, actually killed a policeman who looked like JFK in order that his body could be... Anyway, it's... But I suppose what I'm saying is you can spend a lot of time getting really involved in every last detail of these...
	fake stories and getting to the truth but actually it doesn't really matter once you know that that we are being lied to systematically about everything you're there aren't you i mean for example i think so i think so you you said for example okay um had we had everyone understood the truth about 9-11 then we wouldn't be where we are now But you could say exactly the same thing about, had we understood about the invention of AIDS, we wouldn't be where we are now.
	Because that's even more... Oh, I see.
	You chatted with my friend Hugo recently, I think, didn't you?
	No.
	Who did you chat to about AIDS?
	You had a podcast about it.
	John Rapoport.
	Oh, him.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Great conversation.
	Sorry.
	I forgot.
	He's good.
	I've spoken to other people since, you know, it was one of those, those other kind of, one of the many conspiracies that I hadn't looked at yet.
	And, you know, even last year when I reviewed an AIDS drama for the, there was an AIDS drama on Channel 4 by the guy who wrote, you know, the Doctor Who guy.
	And it was, you know, characteristically Amusing, entertaining, and charming, and moving, and all these things.
	But even then, I did not know the truth about AIDS.
	What do you think is the conspiracy theorist conspiracy theory?
	Do you mean the?
	The number one?
	where uh if you're prepared to go there the the number one yeah um i think the ultimate conspiracy theory of all conspiracy theories the one that trumps all of them and this is one that i do not buy into but it's the flat earth um I think that is, I don't think you get, I don't think you can go higher than that one.
	I think that's the ultimate, you know, that's, that's boss level.
	I don't think there is nothing higher than that.
	But the problem, the problem for me with that one is that, I mean, I find it interesting.
	I'll be honest.
	I really enjoy chatting to people.
	Who argue that Earth is flat because I've often thought that they were idiots and it's exactly the opposite.
	They think very critically, a lot of them think very critically about this.
	They have very good arguments and it's fascinating for me.
	I'm just not convinced by it because the paradigm shift is just simply too massive.
	Yeah.
	Because let's just assume for a second, just assume that Earth is flat.
	It will uproot absolutely everything in existence, from education system to health to everything.
	It's just too big.
	It's just absolutely ginormous.
	It's not just a Imagine tomorrow, James.
	Imagine tomorrow that it comes out officially that Earth is flat.
	Think about how that will dramatically change everything from religion to maps, to everything you thought about space, stars, the works.
	Your entire existence gets uprooted.
	So for me, that is a conspiracy theory that is just too large to buy into.
	But I certainly do enjoy the chats.
	Because there are, there are things, there are, there are aspects of it that make sense.
	Like somebody asked me the other day, well, how do you prove earth is round and floating in space?
	Well, easy.
	We've got photographs from, from outer space.
	Okay.
	Well, do we?
	Turns out that a lot of photographs are CGI'd.
	They're all composite.
	Yeah, they're all composite.
	So that kind of broke me a little bit.
	Like, why are there almost no photographs of Earth?
	And then they'll say, yeah, but there are plenty.
	Yeah, some from the space station.
	Well, that's just a really high up shot of a small section of Earth.
	It's not the entire Earth.
	Then you go, okay, well, look at these photographs from up in the sky.
	No, no, no.
	But those use GoPro type lenses.
	So everything becomes fisheye.
	So it looks round.
	And then you see footage like you do on YouTube, where you've got cameras that go really, really, really high up and the horizon is completely flat.
	I've looked out the airplane window and the horizon is completely flat, but the counter-argument is that it's because you aren't high enough to see the curvature, and so on and so forth.
	So I do enjoy that kind of conversation.
	And I have learned that it's extremely, extremely difficult, James, to prove that Earth is round and floating in space if you don't have the scientific knowledge.
	I was going to say, Jerm, that I aspire to being a Flat Earther.
	I'm certainly not there yet, because it's, it's, you've got to... It's too much.
	You've got to put in the hours, but I, you know, I feel like I'm copping out slightly.
	Because it was interesting, the reason you gave, that it is too much of a paradigm shift, even for you.
	And I kind of rather feel the same about it.
	But at the same time, There's a line in, I think.
	Think about this.
	Think about this, James.
	If you go camping for a weekend and you look up at the sky and you're away from the city, it's incredibly beautiful, right?
	And you lie there thinking, how amazing is that Infinity of space.
	And those stars that you're just seeing, they're so far away and it's taken so long for that light to reach you.
	Now, if you believe Earth is flat, those are not stars and they're not very far away.
	They're just all, I don't know, they're just apparently what they call luminaries that are just floating inside this dome that I guess God put there just so that it looks pretty and to create some form of navigation systems for Over the last few thousand years, because people always use the stars as some sort of navigation.
	That's apparently it.
	So they don't lie there in awe and wonder of the magnificence of it.
	And I find that quite sad.
	Yes, yes, I know.
	I agree.
	But at the same time, I kind of think, when I look at the moon now, I think, oh, I wonder if that's, you know, what's on the dark side?
	Yes, I also wonder that.
	I also wonder that, I can't lie.
	And also, if it's not as sold, what exactly, what is the deal then?
	Who organised this?
	Is it the Truman Show?
	Yeah, I mean, that's essentially it.
	And that's why the paradigm shift is, for me, just too big.
	Mark Shuttleworth, I've never met, but he grew up basically around the corner from me, you know, 15 minutes from my house.
	So, he did go to the space station, he did go to Russia, and he learned how to speak Russian.
	He did the whole thing, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I remember two years ago, I had a guy called Mark Sargent on my podcast.
	He's a flat earth guy and he had a documentary that was on Netflix.
	Can't remember the name of it.
	And he said to me, is Mark Shuttleworth a billionaire?
	And I said, well, yes.
	And he says, well, then he didn't go to the space station.
	How do you know that?
	How can you just say that?
	But he did.
	And he said, no, if he's rich, then it was all a hoax.
	Oh really?
	And so what you're essentially saying is that, you know, Mark Shuttleworth is a liar.
	And for me, that's kind of strange also.
	I mean, why would he lie?
	Why would he go learn to speak Russian and go through all the theatrics just for what?
	Just to say that he went to the space station?
	No, I think you did go to Space Station.
	This is the other problem, isn't it, of doing?
	Well, I should come to that.
	I just wanted to quote from one of my favorite Psalms, Psalm 8.
	This is the Coverdale translation.
	And he says, well, this is the Psalm.
	So, you know, David wrote this many, many years ago.
	And he writes, For I will consider thy heavens, even the works of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained.
	And you think, well, hang on a second.
	Maybe they knew something.
	Maybe David knew something that we've contrived to forget, that this was... David, he certainly did know something.
	He had 900 concubines.
	Did he?
	Did he really?
	I think it's something like that.
	Solomon had the concubines.
	Oh, sorry, Solomon.
	Solomon had the concubines.
	Solomon.
	Oh, sorry, Solomon.
	No, David.
	No, it was David.
	Was it?
	David had the concubines.
	And then he went and he saw that one called Bathsheba, and she was showering or bathing on the rooftop.
	How does the story go?
	And he lusted over her, etc.
	Yes.
	What's it called?
	The Hittite.
	David had him sent to the front and killed and it was a naughty thing.
	I'd forgotten about that.
	I remember that Solomon had lots and lots of concubines.
	I thought David had spent most of his life trying to flee people trying to kill him.
	But anyway, yeah.
	Okay, I'm not going to argue because I could be wrong now.
	It's been a long time since I read about King David, but I think it was him who had the concubines.
	If it was Solomon, then whatever.
	Sorry about that.
	There's so much crazy stuff in the Bible, isn't there?
	I'm reading the Old Testament now and some of the stories in there just make me go, wow, what's this all about?
	I think it's fantastic.
	I think more people should read the Bible.
	Totally.
	Actually, I think it's a great book.
	And I think the last two years of all this nonsense around us, it's a double-edged sword.
	On the one hand, you realize that you have been duped by a lot of globalists and sort of rich elite and technocrats.
	But on the other hand, it's forced a lot of people back to faith.
	And I think that's a good thing.
	Oh, totally, totally.
	And actually, when you look at the wisdom contained in the Psalms and in Proverbs, which fantastically prefigure the words of Christ in the Gospels, And it's got a wonderful circularity to it.
	Everything connects.
	Everything makes sense.
	And you look at the precepts that are being taught to you, and they're absolutely right.
	You know, be merciful.
	Be truthful.
	You know, trust in the Lord with all thine heart.
	Lean not to thine own understanding.
	Once you make this part of your life, A, it becomes Easier.
	I mean, you feel like you've got kind of supernatural backing, which you have.
	But these are just the sensible ways to live your life.
	And I don't think religion was really offering this to any great degree outside the Bible.
	I think these precepts are quite rare.
	It's an interesting parallel because human behavior, or I think human nature, is one that desires a higher purpose.
	And if you happen to be one who is lacking in that sense of higher purpose, you know, let's say you're Christian or you're Muslim or whatever, but at least you've got a foundation, you've got some sort of value structure that aligns with that belief system.
	Now, let's say you don't believe any of that.
	We can see what's happened in the last two years.
	You've got people now suddenly attaching themselves to science, science with a TM, or scientism.
	Trust the science and let's listen to our government and let's listen to the scientists.
	Suddenly, the pulpit reappears, but it's certainly not By, let's say, Christian leaders or whatever leader you ascribe to, it now becomes Bill Gates or Fauci.
	And people are always going to look for that spiritual leader, no matter what their belief is.
	So my guess is, well, I would rather put my trust into a biblical God than a science God, let's say.
	Yeah, well, I mean, that's a given.
	I think if you read, for example, C.S.
	Lewis, have you read C.S.
	Lewis's That Hideous Strength?
	Oh no, I haven't read that one, but I've read the other.
	Okay, so he sets out this conflict between, and actually I think Bowie talks about this in his song Saviour Machine as well, and this is what transhumanism is all about.
	It's about trying to replace God.
	It's like, It's what the Tower of Babel was about.
	People will always try and find God somewhere.
	Yes, you're correct.
	But more than that, they were trying to supersede God.
	You see, the people on the other side, the dark forces, believe that actually God is ultimately dispensable and that man can transcend God through it.
	You know, there have been adverts, I think, recently going around, you know, do you want to live forever in the metaverse?
	You know, why do you need to die?
	Which of course is antithetical to the Christian message, which is, you know, you die and then you have this afterlife with God, but it's not the earthly life, the earthbound life that the metaverse is effectively creating.
	Yeah, so there is this massive struggle going on and once you Once you understand that this is what it's really all about, this battle between these two forces.
	I mean, I personally don't see why people choose the dark side.
	I really don't.
	I mean, okay, sex, drugs and rock and roll, but they're so ephemeral.
	They're not satisfying, are they, as the really good things?
	But I mean, sex, drugs and rock and roll, I mean, I've spoken about this recently, but have you noticed how that whole kind of rebellious anti-establishment foundation of the entire rock music scene in the last two years has just crumbled?
	It's disappeared.
	You know, they've all become establishment hacks.
	Yeah.
	I mean, even one of my heroes, John Lydon, I think I heard him in a podcast at the beginning of this year and he said, you know, he wanted to stay indoors and he was worried about this virus and, you know, and he won't tell people to get the jab, but he thinks it's a good idea.
	Like, oh, come on, really?
	This was Johnny Rotten.
	Seriously?
	Like, what happened?
	What happened to that rebellious spirit?
	Maybe he was never real in the first place.
	Look, have you read Weird Seasons Inside the Canyon?
	You must have done.
	No, I haven't actually.
	Can you believe it?
	The book that demonstrates... I mean, this is a rabbit hole and a half.
	The book that demonstrates so convincingly that The entire peace and love movement of the late 60s was the creation of the CIA.
	Yes.
	I don't know that.
	So, for example, I think it was Stephen Stills of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young.
	I think it's Stephen Stills, who wrote the song For What It's Worth, which was the anti-war anthem that always gets, whenever you see a NAMM documentary and you see the pictures of flower children confronting the National Guard at Kent State and all this stuff, they always play For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield in the background.
	And it turns out that Stephen Stills may have served in Vietnam before America was officially at war with Vietnam.
	So in other words, if you'd gone in at that stage, you wouldn't even have gone in as official military, you'd have gone in as a kind of an advisor.
	I didn't know that.
	But the book is full of these things.
	I actually had to stop reading it because it was just doing my head in.
	Don't you enjoy it?
	Don't you enjoy these?
	I mean, it doesn't really add or detract, I suppose, from your life unless you get consumed by it, but isn't it interesting some of these These moments in history and you go, okay, was that really what it was?
	You know, like JFK, we kind of know that it wasn't the official story.
	9-11, we pretty much know that it was an official story.
	But there are some more interesting obscure ones that people don't talk about that I also find interesting.
	Like, for example, the Titanic.
	You know, have you heard that one?
	Love the Titanic one.
	Absolutely love it.
	It was basically for the Cabal to bump off their enemies.
	But what's so funny about it is that parts, I mean, you don't know what's true or what's not, and it was a very long time ago, so it's hard to verify.
	But I mean, JP Morgan was supposed to have been on the ship and he cancelled, I think, the night or two nights before, you know, just coincidentally.
	And of course, the footage that they've managed to take of the ship that's on the ground.
	I mean, it's old, but, you know, there are stories that it doesn't match up to.
	The one that sank Titanic, it was an insurance job.
	Yes.
	So it was both an insurance job and a kind of an assassination thing, which is just great, isn't it?
	No, the reason I feel uncomfortable reading this stuff, and obviously I enjoy having my brain explode as I read this shit, but the problem is I can't share it with anyone other than people like you and the listeners to this podcast.
	I can't.
	I can't.
	Because people think you're nuts.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's the problem.
	That is the problem.
	I feel saner than I've ever felt in my life.
	I feel that I know more than I've ever known before.
	And I feel liberated from having to look up to people that actually I now realize were not worth looking up to.
	So in other words, the entirety of the journalistic trade.
	There's nobody in journalism that I look up to and go, yeah, I aspire to be you.
	I think they're all, they're all shit.
	You mean, you mean who's alive or?
	Well, yeah.
	Or past, or do you include past journalists?
	Well, okay.
	So let me give you some examples of the, I thought that, are you familiar with Charles Moore?
	Because.
	Oh yeah.
	Yeah.
	There, there's a great journalist.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	But he was, he was, he was one of us.
	And the fact that he... He was ahead of his time.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
	I suppose what I mean is people like, to pluck an example from the air, Charles Moore.
	Charles Moore, editor of the Sunday, former editor of the Sunday Telegraph, former editor of the Spectator.
	You know, I used to read him when I was at university and then I think I would, for most of my journalistic career, I would have aspired to be where he is now.
	So maybe I'd get to write some hefty biography, you know, he wrote, he wrote the Thatcher, the authorised Thatcher biography, and I'd be, I'd get well-paid columns, and I'd be, I'd be, I'd be a talking head on, you know, whenever they wanted to kind of, a distinguished figure from journalism to comment on something, and I'd probably get a place in the House of Lords.
	And then I look at him and it's unfair to pick on Charles particularly, but he's just another normie journalist promulgating a false narrative.
	His views on everything are just not worth having.
	That's where I am about my journalistic contemporaries.
	Do you think journalists like him are aware of it though?
	No.
	Of course they're not.
	And the only reason I know this is because I was the same.
	I did not know what I did not know.
	No, they don't know.
	They don't know.
	I had an interesting chat with this about, that's right, that was the anecdote that you killed by referring to the chair blowing over.
	London Calling.
	Toby, you know, my wife.
	Yes, that's right.
	Toby and I have arguments about, Mummy and Daddy fight about things.
	And I'm definitely the Daddy, whatever Toby may think.
	And so the other day, Toby runs a story, a very learned article on his website about the fluorine, sorry, the fluoride scam.
	You know about fluoride.
	I mean, just briefly.
	Fluoride, there was a toxic byproduct of the nuclear research program.
	And it was starting to kill people involved in the nuclear research program.
	And with the help of Edward Bernays, the godfather of the propaganda, which has brainwashed us all, they decided to get around the problem by rebranding fluoride as something good for your health.
	And they did this through the process of assertion.
	There is no scientific evidence that fluoride is good for you.
	Definitely not good for your teeth.
	So what they did was they simply got lots of corrupt scientists to produce these
	Fake fake studies demonstrating the efficacy of fluoride in in dental health and lo suddenly all the institutions you know all those institutions which should be protecting uh you know dental associations which which should be subjecting these these claims to scrutiny or instead going yeah we must have fluoride fluoride in toothpaste and fluoride in the water supply and so on yeah and and here we are um however many decades on pumping this stuff into our our children's
	Bodies and reducing their IQ level.
	So anyway, Toby ran this piece and I said, congrats, Toby, you've finally gone down one rabbit hole, the fluoride rabbit hole.
	Well done.
	And he said to me something like, yes, I don't always agree with everything I publish, but I said, well, why are you distancing yourself from this piece?
	It seems to be an open and shut case.
	This guy presented plenty of evidence and You know, what's not to like?
	And he said, well, I accept his points about the case for fluoride has not been proved, but I don't accept that it's dangerous and that this is... I said, Toby, come on, it's a neurotoxin.
	This is known, this is established.
	Why are you disputing the bits of the truth that make you feel uncomfortable?
	And what I realized in the course of this conversation, which unfortunately was not recorded, or it was recorded, but there was interference, so we had to do the whole show again, and the show that went out didn't include this discussion, I realized that Toby
	And so many people like him in the mainstream media are like, they've got the same instinct in their head that salmon have when they're swimming mysteriously upstream, not knowing whether they go, but they know they've got to go there.
	In the same way, his brain tells him, don't deviate, don't step off the reservation, don't go outside the Oberson window, because it's bad.
	Bad things happen out there, you know.
	And so he doesn't.
	There's a sort of blocking device in his brain.
	So I think what you're saying is true across the board.
	The term conspiracy theory again, as I was saying earlier, is pejorative because another term could be propaganda because these things work together and not necessarily every one of these items in the conspiracy list of top 10 or whatever it might be, not every single one of them is By design.
	I think a lot of these things also are emergent.
	It's a collection of moments in history that kind of happen one after the other.
	Let me give an example.
	Yes, it was probably Almost definitely true that they wanted to wipe out JFK.
	Right.
	Done.
	Okay.
	But it might not have been true that they wanted to, let me think of, let's say, let's say COVID.
	Now, perhaps, perhaps nobody actually sat in a room and said, guys, let's, let's come up with an invented Let's make the whole world believe that this thing is a real thing so that we can implement our next stage of sinister planning.
	Not necessarily the case.
	It could be a series of things.
	We know actually that they were trying to work on pathogenic stuff in various laboratories around the world.
	A lot of what Fauci was involved in.
	Obama wasn't particularly happy.
	He pulled back And so on and so forth.
	But at the same time, you had people like Klaus Schwab, who wanted to implement a more technocratic approach to the world, and so on and so forth.
	And you got Gates, who wanted to implement digital IDs.
	And a lot of this stuff was happening independently, but kind of at the same time, which is why I'm saying emergent, as opposed to all of them sitting around a table going, okay, guys, let's bring all our our global domination ideas together into one sweep and we'll call it COVID-19.
	No, that's not what I think.
	No.
	I think a lot of different things were happening sort of simultaneously, hence the term emergent, and some instances by design as well, because Event 201 is an eye-opener for those who haven't seen it or heard of it.
	No, I think what you're describing is convergent opportunism, which is...
	Yes.
	I agree.
	It's much more helpful when trying to explain stuff to normies.
	Because one of their favorite phrases is, I believe in cock up, not conspiracy.
	And one of the problems that they have... And I don't agree with that.
	I don't agree with that position.
	I think because what they're trying to do there is they're trying to dilute a real planned event.
	JFK was planned.
	There's no doubt about that.
	9-11 was planned.
	Absolutely 100% planned.
	We can go into a full discussion around who planned it, but what we do know is that it was planned.
	And it was planned for that particular day with all those buildings.
	None of that was by coincidence.
	However, What's happened over the last two years, there might be a number of coincidences, but not necessarily completely disconnected.
	They could be related.
	We don't know all the details yet, but we do know that there are a number of incidents that have happened in the last two years that were by design, and we also do know that some of them were probably emergent.
	Oh totally, yeah.
	My objection to the cock-up not conspiracy argument, or rather it's not even an argument, it's just a cop-out, is that it ascribes good faith to the people responsible for this shit and they are not acting in good faith.
	They are undoubtedly malign.
	In fact, I'd go even further than that.
	I would say, I mean, we were talking earlier about the Bible and we're talking about People are, there are debates about what exactly is going to happen when all this things come to an end.
	Is there going to be a rapture?
	Are we going to be all the righteous going to be called up into heaven?
	And what form will this, is it a thousand years of kind of peace and harmony?
	What will it look like?
	And I sometimes wonder whether We humans, I mean you're a human and I'm a human definitely, but I'm not sure about some of the people involved in this world.
	We're not entirely certain about Elon Musk.
	You're absolutely right, absolutely right.
	I think that our instincts, our natural instincts, are not towards war and destruction.
	I think that these things are actually imposed on us by forces which are not like us.
	I mean, have you had Cliff High on your show?
	Cliff High.
	No, but I have thought about it quite a lot, I'll be honest.
	Okay.
	So, you know, Cliff High talks about the bug.
	Yours or your show?
	He talks about this alien intelligence and this alien intelligence seeks to direct human behavior Are towards paths which are not towards which humans are not naturally suited.
	I mean, communism is inimical to what we like to do.
	We like to we like to communicate.
	We like to trade freely.
	I think This was the feeling I used to get when I went on the various anti-lockdown marches and so on.
	It was like how humans are meant to be when left to their own devices, freed from these constricting forces of authority.
	Yes, I agree with you.
	That we are about love and about cheery conversations and joy and celebration.
	And we want a better world.
	And these... Yeah, go on.
	No, I was just going to say, I think if people are just left to their own devices, they generally will find ways to live harmoniously and peacefully.
	Because I think it's the minority of people that are chaotic and are hateful that want to cause havoc.
	Most people just want to get on with their own lives and handle their own affairs without interference.
	That's it.
	People just want to be left alone.
	That's ultimately what it is.
	And people want to be free to make their own decisions.
	And whenever you see totalitarianism happening in any form, eventually people push back against it.
	This has happened throughout history.
	And this is the problem, I believe, with Western democracies, essentially, is that it's basically a stepping stone to more tyrannical forms of government.
	Democracy, I think, is better on paper than it is in reality.
	And I don't think democracy is a very good concept on paper either.
	Not for large populations, maybe for tiny populations, like people that you can actually know by name, but I think once you get beyond a certain number of people, democracy is a complete and utter failure.
	And I think it's part of the reason why the West is crumbling, why Peter Hitchens said the West is dead, you know, because it allows for too much liberalism and that's really proven to be a terrible thing.
	I think, just going back to basics, what is it that we all like?
	Left to our own devices, what would we do?
	We just want to be able to grow our own food.
	We want to be able to, if you're very good at, I don't know, growing cabbages and And I'm very good at growing tomatoes and we happen to live close to one another and we swap, you know, and you go, okay, well, I'll have a handful of yours and you can have a handful of mine.
	And that's pretty much, you know, the origins of trade.
	So we trade, yes?
	We trade and we communicate and we talk.
	Yeah, we talk and we find things that are common ground because I think human nature is to find common ground with people.
	It's not to go and kill people.
	That's what happens when you're wanting to control groups of people.
	Then you start politicizing, because again, that's connected to large populations.
	But you don't find that historically in communities nearly as much.
	I mean, of course, you'll always have people getting into arguments and whatever, right?
	But generally speaking, if you have a small community of people, disputes, conflicts get resolved very quickly.
	It's always been like that.
	Yeah.
	But for some reason, when you have massive populations with the same rules applying to all people, You end up with a huge amount of conflict.
	You cannot possibly have a population like South Africa of, let's say, 60 million people, have 11 different official languages, multiple ethnicities and cultures, and apply the same rules and laws to all 60 million of them.
	It makes zero sense because different groups of people have different ways of doing things.
	Also, for some reason, it's very controversial these days to say that, because apparently everybody must apply the same thinking, and that's not true.
	You can't expect, I don't know, let's say Vietnamese people to live exactly the same way as people from Ireland.
	No.
	They've got different cultures, different backgrounds, different heritages, et cetera, et cetera.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And that convergence of differences, when they're forced into one another, you end up with conflict.
	But I mean, have a look at the animal kingdom, right?
	Animals don't have borders between them.
	Now, I'm not saying that they need borders between them, but what I'm trying to say is they respect For the most part, and always have throughout Earth's history.
	They respect the territories of other animals.
	Why?
	It's because it's the natural way of doing things.
	They don't want war or violence.
	They just want to be left alone to do their own thing.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	And I think humans are precisely the same.
	For the most part, humans are peaceful and are friendly and are willing to get on with one another.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, if we accept That humans tend naturally towards peace and to things like, okay, exchanging ideas, telling each other stories, growing stuff, enjoying the fruits of the vine, procreating, forming families, bringing up children that they want to give a better life than they had themselves, if that's possible.
	And so these are all natural, wholesome things.
	I think that for millennia there has been a, what I call, a parasite, a predator class, a sort of parasitic elite, a bit like in the Hunger Games in the Capitol.
	And they've been feeding, you know, feeding off us like Well, like we are cattle or something like that.
	Yeah, they are parasites.
	If somehow we could free ourselves from this parasite class, I think we could be living in the Garden of Eden again.
	I think it would be possible.
	I think what you're talking about is also true.
	There's definitely a parasitic class that exists that tries to always manipulate and control in some way or form.
	And you can't necessarily point fingers because I think the people in that class, it's mobile, it changes.
	I think you're right to some degree, but I think you should be careful because I don't think utopia exists at all.
	And I think utopia is precisely where the sort of ultra-left, communist, socialist mindsets have gone wrong because they're not seeing the world, I believe, as it is, but they're seeing the world as they would like to see it.
	And the moment you do that, you start disconnecting yourself from reality, which is why I say that I don't really believe right-wing exists.
	I think everybody is just a degree of left-wing because left-wing essentially means progress.
	And as Michael Malice said, conservatism is just liberalism going the speed limit.
	So I think what I'm trying to say is that you You don't want to try and disengage yourself too much from reality and go towards what you think could be utopia, because that's going to end up being disappointing.
	You're going to find too many breakages along the way.
	But rather accept what is, and then celebrate that, if that makes sense.
	Okay, so I don't want to...
	I don't want to fantasize about utopias exactly, but I think what we can both accept is that the status quo is unsupportable and lots, lots more people, not as quickly as we like, but lots more people are waking up to the fact that the world is a rich man's trick.
	I mean, not just a rich man's trick, a very, very, very, very, very rich man's trick.
	And that these people have been doing it for generations.
	And a lot of these evil families pass on the evil to their sons who carry on doing this stuff.
	You know, I've got this phrase that I invented, they've got the Rolexes, they've got the time.
	Because they have, they think in terms of centuries or even millennia for their power play.
	And they are exact families.
	I mean, there are families like the Rothschilds is definitely one of those families.
	But But those groups of people seem to be, what I was saying is that they, because it's so ongoing, you know, that the individuals in those families change over time.
	Yes.
	Well, I think what happens is that the ones who don't make the grade tend to get offed actually, because they can't afford to have people who aren't psychopaths in their families, because that's part of the deal.
	Ah, keyword.
	Keyword, psychopath, you're quite right.
	And sociopath, definitely.
	Yeah, yeah.
	This is why I just, and are these families even the ultimate, are they at the top of the pyramid?
	You know, perhaps there is a kind of another sort of alien species.
	I, that's kind of where I stop.
	So like, like with the Flat Earth discussion, I don't really, I don't, I don't want that paradigm shift and who's right at the very top of that, that hierarchical structure that you're referring to.
	I also don't like to think about it because it's, it's also a paradigm shift.
	That's, that's quite large.
	If you were talking about structure.
	It would be so boring, wouldn't it?
	Imagine having no limits on anything.
	You could buy anything.
	You could do anything.
	You'd have anyone you dislike rubbed out just like that.
	What would the British strive for?
	The thing is, I think you will scratch your head and you will go around in circles and circles and circles until you're 100 years old trying to figure out who's at the top of that pyramid.
	What I have come to realize is that, yes, there are people at the top of the pyramid.
	There are a handful of families.
	We could probably name names.
	It doesn't matter.
	Yeah, people.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So let's just stick within that paradigm for now, right?
	But to try and figure that out is ridiculous because you're going to end up going off your head.
	So I kind of just...
	10 to stick it with the idea that, yes, there are a few families right at the top.
	It could be 12, 13 families.
	Who knows?
	What do you call it?
	The Club of Rome.
	Something 300.
	The Trilateral Commission.
	Yeah.
	Bilderberg.
	But I mean, there are these...
	They are definitely, but right at the very top, you've got a handful of families that have been around for a long time, but that's where I end because to go beyond that is, you just, you'll go off your head, you know?
	So, and if you're suggesting that there's something else above that, well, that's again, that's the paradigm shift that's a bit too far away for me.
	Let's briefly come down to earth.
	How are things in South Africa at the moment?
	In what way?
	Well, I mean, what's the latest lunacy being imposed on you by your government?
	Are they still forcing objections on you?
	Yes, sort of.
	So our state of disaster is now officially lifting.
	So it took, what, 21 days to flatten?
	what, 21 days to flatten?
	No, it took 750 days or whatever of 21 days to flatten some apparent curve.
	Now they're lifting that state of disaster that they call it, but they're essentially writing in legislation or law that's going to pretty much extend all of that forever.
	So, So they won't officially force you to be jabbed.
	But they're essentially outsourcing it to the private sector.
	So you might struggle to fly or you might struggle to get a job at a particular company or something because of the mandates that the government will support.
	So the answer to your question is it's the same pretty much as it always has been for the last couple of years and it's going to continue.
	Is it worth visiting South Africa?
	Should I come again?
	Yes, you absolutely should.
	Let me tell you, so while the COVID nonsense and the technocratic sustainable development rubbish is pushing ahead just like it is everywhere else, being on the African continent is also a blessing because we are a failed state.
	And I've said this before, but a failed state is a great place to be when you're trying to get out of tyrannical governance because A government that is too corrupt and too inept to oppress its people is a great, is a great government.
	Oh yeah, you're absolutely right.
	You don't watch kind of German efficiency.
	I don't want to be in Canada.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I don't want to be in Canada right now or Australia.
	That's exactly it.
	You know, we can, we can still I was going to say, in Australia, they handed in all their guns in the 90s, so they can't really push back.
	In South Africa, you can still be armed.
	They can't stop people from getting legally armed, etc.
	It's a pretty good place to be at the moment.
	Yes, you're talking my language.
	Finally, I've just done another podcast with some refugees from Canada who've been sort of going around the world trying to find out where to live.
	And we agreed that the two places you want to be are either in either in the third world, where, you know, failed states, as you say, are incapable of policing you to the same degree that Germany or Canada might.
	Or, You want to be in a former communist country like Bulgaria or Albania or Russia?
	Right now, Russia is probably the safest place to be right now.
	I think you're right.
	I think you're right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I mean, so you've got China on your side, so China's not going to fuck you over, which is rare, I think.
	And the West is too afraid to attack you.
	Because they know they're going to lose.
	Long may that fear continue.
	I mean, that's my big worry at the moment.
	If I had to name my biggest worry at the moment, it probably would be that we are being gaslit into taking part in a war against Putin based on those false war atrocity stories.
	Yeah, but let's be honest, James.
	Putin is quite possibly the world's greatest chess player right now.
	The West sanctions him.
	Think about this.
	The West sanctions him and says, you may no longer trade in US dollars.
	He says, no, that's fine.
	We're going to trade in our currency.
	I've seen some comments on the internet saying that this is really good for stuff like gold.
	I don't quite understand the mechanics of it.
	Russia's going to come out on top.
	Russia's going to come out completely on top.
	The West is going to come out worse.
	It's like Biden basically threw a boomerang and it's flying back straight at him.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Or rather the people who hold his boomerang throwing hand through the boomerang, because I don't think Biden makes any decisions.
	No, he's not able.
	Yeah, no, no, he can't do anything.
	I mean, Putin is just looking at this and laughing.
	I want to give a big shout out to a South African company, Tungela Resources.
	Do you know about Tungela?
	No.
	I was hunting the other day, the last day of the hunting season.
	And you have great conversations when you're out hunting because everyone's kind of like completely out there because of how would you not be if you go hunting and I was talking about investments and stuff and this this guy was talking about he said coal is a really good buy at the moment and I said I said really and he said well yeah because like they're realizing the limits of their sustainability agenda and they need they need cheap energy
	And even though the fund managers won't invest in coal companies because of ESG, nevertheless, they're a very good place for retail investors to go because you're exposed to this great value.
	People need coal, regardless of whether the fund managers won't invest in them or not.
	And I said, well, who is doing it?
	He said, well, there's a South African company called Tangela Resources.
	So had I bought them at Immediately after the hunt, there would have been 800 pence.
	There were 200 at the beginning of this year, I think.
	And now, I bought them at 900, and they're now at 1,100.
	I imagine they're going to hit 2,000 soon, which is just great.
	So thank you, Tangela.
	Thank you, South Africa, for producing stuff.
	Oh, OK.
	You should definitely come visit when you're able to.
	When you and I chatted, you actually did Say that you came, I think you said you were in shark cage diving.
	Yeah, we still spoke about that.
	I went to Gansbaai to go diving with the great white sharks, you know, the shocks.
	Gansbaai, Gansbaai, with the horrible salmon sheet.
	Yeah, I did my best.
	I did my best.
	Did I mention this before?
	The place I really want to go, more than anywhere in the world, I want to go to the place in the Okavango.
	Where you, I know that's not in South Africa, that's in Botswana, where you go with the horses, you go on horse safaris, and in the morning you swim across the river with your horse prior to going, you know, riding.
	I mean, how cool would that be?
	That sounds amazing.
	Yeah, that does sound pretty amazing.
	I mean, my first question naturally was, what about the crocodiles?
	Don't they wait to get you as you swim across?
	But apparently they swim across a bit where there aren't any crocs or something.
	I did hear this horrible story.
	A guide told me, when I went to Namibia, one of the guys had worked in the Okavango and he said that one of, you know how they, have you been there?
	No.
	To Namibia?
	To the Okavango Delta.
	No, I haven't been there.
	Okay, so apparently you get around by by canoes and there's a guy on the back with a sort of pole that sort of pulls you along.
	And this guy told me the story that on one occasion, this tourist couple had been out there with their guide, and a crocodile had gone and taken the guy with the pole off the top.
	They'd gone and snapped him in his jaws and pulled him out of the water, and they were kind of stuck out there, absolutely.
	I mean, what would you do?
	Can you imagine how... I mean, that's the downside of that.
	What's scarier to you?
	What's scarier to you, a crocodile or Great White?
	It's very interesting you say that, because I've just come back from Costa Rica, and I went to this place where... We always come around to animal horror stories, don't we, I think, when we have a chat, which is one of my favourite topics.
	So we went to this place where there are bull sharks, which you know are one of the world's But it's the aggressive, aggressive sharks.
	I mean, the top three are the great white, the tiger shark and the bull shark.
	You call them Zambesian sharks?
	I think the Zambesian and the bull shark are actually the same thing, but whatever, you know, those are the ones that take surfers in South Africa and elsewhere.
	We went to this river mouth where the bull sharks come in because bull sharks are the only shark that can swim in fresh water.
	And they like to hover around the river mouth.
	Yeah.
	And they have battles with the crocodiles and the crocodiles win every time.
	So crocodiles are worse than sharks.
	It would be mine.
	A crocodile is a strange animal.
	I mean, I can't think of anything that eats it.
	But then again, I can't think of anything that eats a great white.
	I think when it comes down to it, a great white can grow to what?
	30 feet, I think?
	Possibly?
	30 foot great white?
	Is there such a thing?
	I don't know.
	That sounds a bit big.
	Well, let's call it 20 feet.
	20 feet.
	Okay.
	We should Google it.
	Yeah.
	Anyway.
	Actually, you could be right.
	You're talking in feet.
	So that's not something I can easily calculate, but okay.
	10 meters.
	Yeah.
	Let's Google it, because otherwise people are just going to be, you know, it's going to ruin their day, not knowing how big a great white can get out.
	I think a 10 meter great white is, I don't know, I think it's plausible.
	Sounds a bit big.
	I think six to eight meters is probably more realistic for a big one.
	They tend to, so they talk about the largest.
	1200 kilos is the largest.
	Okay.
	1.2 tonnes.
	That's quite big.
	20 feet in length.
	I think the thing is, rather than growing long... 20 feet?
	Yeah.
	Rather than growing long, they tend to grow sort of fat on the bottom, don't they?
	So that's where they're, when they get older.
	So they don't just keep on going long.
	But what is 20 feet in metres?
	What is that conversion?
	That is 6 metres.
	6 metres.
	Okay.
	All right.
	There we go.
	So the largest is 6 metres.
	Is that what you said?
	Yeah.
	I think it's academic.
	It's more dangerous.
	A 6-metre Great White or, say, a saltwater crocodile.
	I mean, you're a goner either way, aren't you?
	You definitely don't stand a chance.
	No.
	But as my mum always said, a crocodile makes a nice handbag.
	Yeah, but you wouldn't want the handbag made out of the crocodile at your son, would you?
	Not really.
	No, probably not.
	Every time I look at my handbag, I think I'm no fan.
	I'm no fan of crocodiles.
	I do not like, I don't, I think they're okay to look at from a distance, but I don't know.
	They don't, they don't generate feelings of happiness and joy within me.
	What, what, what animal are you most scared of?
	I mean, and don't say man, because that's the obvious one.
	It's like, it's like there was a ghastly sign in, I knew that London Zoo had gone to the bad when, when You go there and there's this kind of sign saying, World's Most Dangerous Creature, and below is a mirror.
	So you look in the mirror and you see a piece of London Zoological Society.
	No, you just want to turn around and leave.
	Your question is, what animal am I most afraid of, did you ask?
	It's a good question.
	I'm going to actually chat to my wife about that.
	I'm going to ask her also, because that's a great question.
	What animal am I most afraid of?
	It's weird because you also need to encounter those animals to be afraid of them.
	Otherwise, you're just afraid of them in theory.
	Yeah, but I mean, they're all far away.
	I don't know.
	I mean, I think some sort of large carnivores, obviously scary.
	I mean, if you go into a game park and you open your window and you pull up next to a lion, it's a It's a pretty scary, yet magnificent looking animal.
	And you know that you stand no chance.
	But it's not really realistic because you're not actually outside with it.
	So that's why I don't know how to answer that.
	Maybe like, I suppose, like some sort of snake.
	Because that you can encounter all the time.
	If you go on a hike or something.
	Black Mambas, basically.
	Maybe.
	I don't know.
	I actually think it's a great question.
	I don't know the answer to that.
	I suppose it depends on context.
	What is yours?
	What is your favorite?
	Oh, I think probably crocodiles.
	Um, I think a crocodile, but I mean, come on.
	How often do you, how often do you engage with a crocodile?
	You can live this stuff in your head.
	Oh, my wife just tripped me.
	She said a Chihuahua.
	Why, why, why would that be so dangerous?
	Oh, she says because everybody has one and they bite like crocodiles.
	It's true.
	You're probably more likely to be bitten by a chihuahua than a crocodile.
	It is.
	And it's also a very dangerous dog.
	It gets stuck in the throat of very big dogs.
	Yeah.
	So don't eat a chihuahua.
	That's, that would be very dangerous.
	In terms of things.
	But your crocodile, your, your, your, your, your, your crocodile comment is weird because you don't really go, I mean, I get it.
	It's like academically you'd be scared of it, but I mean, you never anywhere where you see a crocodile, are you?
	Yes.
	I've just been in Costa Rica.
	I told you.
	And that crocodile could have got me.
	I've also been in Australia.
	I've told you I want to swim across a river in Botswana with horses.
	Crocodile could get me there.
	But snakes, I like snakes a lot.
	And in where you live, you've got diverse problems.
	At one end, you've got the black mamba, which is aggressive.
	I mean, black mamba is one of the very few snakes that will actually chase after you and try and, you know, they're that bad.
	The black mamba.
	Black mamba.
	And they will kill you easily.
	The corollary of that kind of poisonous snake is the ones that just Don't chase after you, but they don't move, so you can easily step on them in the dark.
	So the pit viper, that kind of thing.
	That's what I was talking about.
	Which kill more people, which kill more people.
	And here's an interesting thing.
	When I was in Costa Rica, there were these, a lot of their poisonous snakes hang about in trees.
	And there's one called a palm viper, I think.
	And the baby ones are only about like, like, how do I, you know, maybe two, three, four fingers long.
	And they look innocent.
	They look like kind of geckos or something without legs.
	And you think, oh, that's kind of cute.
	That couldn't do me any harm.
	But the babies are more dangerous than the fully grown ones, because the babies will inject all of their venom into you, whereas the mature ones.
	Oh, oh, wow.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's all calculated.
	I suppose babies don't know about how much venom to put in because they're not very experienced, whereas the grown ups are more, you know, I'll save some of this.
	It's not worth it.
	Do you know what the most dangerous animal in Africa actually is?
	Now, I think I sometimes get this wrong.
	It's a trick question.
	Is it the cape?
	It's a trick question.
	Oh, okay.
	It's the bee then.
	Is it the bee?
	Or the mosquito?
	No, no, no.
	No, it's... Are we talking about mammals?
	No, it's not.
	No, no, no.
	No, it's not an insect.
	Okay.
	Well, it could be.
	I suppose you could argue it's the mosquito, but we're not going to talk about that.
	Okay, what about cape buffalo?
	That's not what I mean.
	Cape buffalo?
	No, no, it's not the buffalo.
	So it's actually the hippo?
	The hippo, yeah.
	I think you asked me this one before, and I think I got it wrong the last time as well.
	Hippos, yeah.
	You wouldn't want to be... I'm not sure if I asked you.
	You wouldn't want to be... Hippos, they get you when you're walking past a river and you accidentally stray across one of the runs that they go down, and then they mow you down like a tank.
	And obviously, I've seen a guy being chased by hippos in a canoe down a river.
	Well, or rather I heard about it because he was, you know, we lost him for about half a day.
	And that wouldn't be fun either.
	I mean, if they upturned your canoe and they bit you in half with one of their, with their, those square teeth they've got and those powerful jaws.
	I don't think you'd even know.
	If a hippo bit you, you wouldn't even know.
	No, that thing is ridiculous.
	Have you seen a hippo?
	Have you seen how massive those things are?
	Yes, I have.
	I wouldn't mess with a hippo.
	It's a ridiculous animal.
	It's so huge.
	I feel the same way what you said about hippos I think also applies to great white sharks that when I was when I was about 11 I was obsessed with sharks and it's about the time Jaws came out and I had lots of books about shark attacks and stuff and the classic story was I think he was called Rodney Fox.
	And Rodney Fox was an Australian diver who got bitten by, or a surfer, got bitten by a shark.
	And there were incredible before and after photographs.
	And the before photographs looked like a kind of can of pedigree chum, which had been opened.
	It was just all kind of, you know, yeah, it was ew.
	And he described what it was like being attacked by this shark.
	And he just said it was like being squeezed really, really hard.
	But There didn't seem to be too much terror involved, and I think maybe that would be the deal.
	I think if it got you, you'd go fairly quickly.
	Maybe.
	You'd hope.
	Are you talking about a hippo or a shark?
	Well, both.
	I think it applies to both.
	Yeah, both.
	Yeah, definitely.
	But I mean, look, I mean, a hippo is, it's, it's deceiving because it's a very cute looking animal.
	If you, if you're watching it from, you know, if you're driving past it and you see it from the distance and, and they always look so calm because they've got like 560 of those little birds sitting on their back.
	The oxpeckers.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You see that you remind me of when I come to Africa again.
	So I can see your, you know, I want to see some lilac breasted rollers and oxpeckers and Well, if you visit again, you must go to the Kruger National Park.
	Yeah.
	That's where you'll see everything, just about.
	Where do you live?
	Well, I live in Cape Town, but the Kruger National Park is diagonally on the other side of the country, sort of up to the upper right-hand side of the country.
	Yeah, it's near Joburg.
	Yeah, it's north of Joburg.
	Yeah, well, no, not really.
	I mean, yes, I suppose if you're looking at a map, yes.
	But I mean, I'm at the very bottom left and right the other end of the country is where the Kruger Park is.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Is Cape Town still alright?
	Johannesburg is sort of still in the middle of the country, kind of middle upwards.
	What was your question?
	Is Cape Town still livable or is it over?
	Cape Town.
	No, Cape Town's great.
	It's probably the best city in the country.
	But I mean, it depends on what you mean, because again, you live in the UK, so your point of reference is different.
	My point of reference is the African continent, and more specifically, South Africa.
	So South Africa is a failed state, and it has this very, very diametrically Opposite class structure.
	So in Cape Town, you'll fly in and you'll see absolute beauty and you'll see Table Mountain and you'll see the wine lands and everything.
	And right next to it, you'll see very, very poor areas, excessively poor areas, which we call townships.
	And you've got this kind of juxtaposition happening, which, you know, you don't really see if you're flying into Paris, you know, getting into London.
	But with that in mind, when you know that that's how life is in South Africa, Cape Town is still great.
	But you get carjackings and things like that, and when they carjack your car, they shoot you?
	I think Johannesburg is more dangerous than Cape Town, but you also, again, living here, you tend to be a bit more streetwise, just otherwise you will get hijacked or you will be, like, you know, you generally know which areas to avoid and what time of day you shouldn't be driving there and that kind of thing.
	I don't know if it's still the case, but on one of the highways here in Cape Town, you know, they've got a series of red lights that run for a few kilometers on the highway.
	And what that means is that you mustn't stop.
	That means it's a hijacking area.
	Yes.
	That's a bit counterintuitive, isn't it?
	Having red light, because most people stop at red lights and these red lights are designed to make...
	No, but they run along the sides.
	So it's basically warning because there's perhaps a suburb, like a very poor area that's there where people come out at night and try and stop cars or something to that effect.
	I remember a few years ago, my wife and I were driving home from somewhere and at the very last minute, I saw this big object in the road.
	You know, this wasn't in Cape Town though, but it doesn't really matter.
	It's still in South Africa.
	And there was this big object in the road and we hit the brakes and it was this massive Like concrete block that was put in the road, obviously designed to stop a car so that they could, maybe the guys were hiding in the bush on the side of the road to hijack us once we'd hit it.
	We saw it, and so we drove around it.
	But, you know, when we contacted the police, if I remember the story correctly, and it turns out that there was a car that was in the bush on the side.
	I don't know.
	I can't remember the full story.
	But the point is that there was this big concrete block that they put in our lane at night.
	Yeah.
	So you kind of just have to be alert, you know, but I mean, South Africa is also not exactly what you see in the media.
	It's not this like, it's not this war zone.
	You know, like Syria, you know, whatever.
	You have bad areas and you've got good areas.
	It just depends on where you live and where you go.
	And once you live here, you kind of know the areas quite well and you know where to not go.
	Yeah.
	Well, you've reached out to myself to come out there.
	No, I mean, I mean, Jeremy Clarkson loves it.
	Yeah, he keeps coming back.
	He loves, he loves.
	Okay.
	So he's, he's weird though, in the sense that he loves Johannesburg.
	I don't know why he does that.
	Why he loves Johannesburg.
	Johannesburg is horrible, but I mean, at least, at least he's, he's, he's from your side of the world promoting, you know, South Africa and not in the way that, that we've seen in the media.
	Yeah, well, I mean, we know that nothing is as presented in media.
	I mean, it's just all... Yeah, and again, I mean, my car hasn't been broken into in years.
	I mean, there was a time where I had a lot of break-ins, and I think I've had a total of nine break-ins in my cars over the years, but nothing in recent years.
	So again, I keep saying this, but it all depends on where you are and the time of day it is.
	I'd rather be where you are than where I am, really.
	Not now, I think winter's arriving and you're in the UK, so you want to enjoy the summer now.
	Yes, well, that's true.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, I didn't mean, I wasn't meaning that I should come in the winter.
	No.
	I mean, I suppose spring is the time to come and visit, isn't it?
	When's that?
	When is your spring?
	November?
	When your autumn is, yeah.
	So I think September, October, November there.
	I think that's spring, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	But I mean, just to make you jealous, my wife and I are going to the Kruger National Park at the end of the month, you know, and it's a great time to go because the weather is not too hot now.
	And it's the end of the dry season, is it?
	Is it the end of the dry season?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	That's a good question, because I think it's... Is it?
	Up there.
	Yeah, up there.
	Up there's the end of the dry season.
	You wouldn't believe this, John, but I am actually an old safari hand.
	I've been on more safaris than you can shake a stick at.
	I'm sure you have.
	In terms of wildlife viewing, the time to go is when there's not too much vegetation.
	Because once the leaves start forming, you know, anything too far off from the side of the road, you can't actually see.
	I mean, I suppose it's more verdant and beautiful in different ways, but yeah, dry is dry.
	And also the animals are forced to come to the waterholes, whereas they're much more widely dispersed when there's water everywhere.
	So yeah, it sounds like you've picked a good time.
	And also, you know, it's extremely big.
	So, you know, if you're going to spend time, you know, staying there for a few days, you also need enough time to, to try and cover some ground.
	Oh, totally.
	Yeah.
	You want it?
	Yeah.
	I'm glad we, I'm glad we finished by having a conversation about, you know, like nice, nice fun things like Vaunt and the Deaths and the joy of Safari.
	Cause we have to remind ourselves that actually it's not all bad.
	There are still some.
	But that's how you push back, James.
	But that is how you push back.
	You know, at the end of the day, you need to try and just reconnect again with the things that matter and the things that are important.
	Totally, totally.
	This is this is exactly my philosophy, which is why I'm I'm happy, because, yeah, I totally, totally agree.
	I'm on a mission to have as much fun as I can.
	I think it's you know, it's part of our job.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And like I said, when you're down here again, which, hey, listen, are you allowed to travel without being jabbed?
	I think so.
	Yeah.
	Until they decide not.
	Can you exit and enter the UK without a vaccine passport?
	Totally, yeah.
	In fact, I've just done it.
	I just did it in a country where you're supposed to have a, you know, vaccine certificate.
	And I just, when there were people with the masks checking you, I just looked at my phone and Actually, I wasn't even pretending to faff.
	I genuinely was faffing around because I'm not very good with technology.
	And as I looked at my phone, I just kind of sidled past and then they just let me go.
	So there are tricks.
	Oh, well, well, congratulations.
	Yeah, no, it's fine.
	It's fine.
	Yeah.
	If there's time, I think it'd be a good place to go.
	I think we've established that we can talk about anything.
	So let's do another show soon-ish, because it's been great talking to you.
	You too.
	I feel like we're brothers.
	Yeah, me too.
	And it's nice that we can be almost in the same time zone.
	Yeah, exactly.
	It's good.
	It's civilized that.
	Yeah.
	Well, Jim, thank you very much.
	And is there anything you want to plug your podcast?
	Why don't you, before we move off?
	Germ Warfare.
	There you go.
	Germ Warfare with a J. Just search for it on Apple or Spotify or go to my website, germwarfare.com.
	There you go.
	And also, as well as Jerm Walther, I can recommend a podcast called The Delling Pod with me, James Delling Pod.
	And you can support me on Patreon, Subscribestar, Locals and Substack, you know.
	Help me make this stuff and help me entertain you.
	Thank you very much, Jerm.
	It's been great.
	It's been a pleasure, James.
	Great.
	Take care, mate.
	Bye-bye.

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