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April 28, 2021 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole
02:35:43
Jerry Marzinsky
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Welcome to the DellingPod with me, James Dellingpoll.
And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but this week's guest is going to totally blow your mind.
I think some people are going to listen to this and go, no, I'm not having it.
I refuse to believe this stuff.
And others of you will go, this has completely changed my view of the world and its cosmology and everything.
I imagine you get that quite a lot, don't you, Jerry, that reaction?
It's funny because I had that reaction myself for decades.
You know, it's like I just didn't want to believe what I was seeing and it went Well past the point where the evidence was totally overwhelming.
I just didn't want to believe it.
It's a nasty, ugly, alternative Universe I know that surrounds us all the time.
We I don't I don't want to give it I don't want to give away any spoilers because because I think I So I want to talk.
Okay.
Let me just introduce you first Jerry Mazinski is a psychotherapist from Arizona You've won you've won awards for your services to Psychotherapy you've had great success particularly in the field of treating schizophrenia, haven't you?
Well, yes, they say there is no cure.
There is a cure.
Yeah.
But it's not in the mindset of psychiatry or psychology right now.
It's the same thing that I struggled with and what you were talking about.
It's the cause is Stranger than fiction.
Yes, I agree.
It totally weirded me out when I got to the point.
I ought to say thank you to the Sheep Farm podcast, which was how I discovered you.
And the Sheep Farm podcast is two lads from Yorkshire, and they grew up on a sheep farm, hence the name of their podcast.
And they've been producing some really good stuff.
I don't know how they found you, but I mean, you are a great find.
Do you know how they came across you?
All I heard from them was, we've been watching your videos for quite a while and we'd like to have you on.
And I'm like, no, I'm going on the sheep farm.
Okay.
Yeah, no, it just they were pleasant.
They were very pleasant to talk to.
They were very interesting and interested.
They are.
They're obviously intelligent seekers after truth.
And I urge everyone to go and check out the interview that you gave to them a few weeks ago.
Because I think it will supplement what we say here.
Because I'm going to ask you questions that perhaps weren't answered in their podcast.
Because, I mean, this is a huge can of worms we're about to open.
And I also wanted to relate it to some of my own experiences with drugs in my misspent youth, particularly with LSD, which wasn't mentioned in your in the podcast you did with them, and I wanted your thoughts on that.
But before we do any of that, just tell me, you've been a psychotherapist.
You're not a psychiatrist, you're a psychotherapist.
What's the difference?
Well, a psychiatrist can dish out drugs and a psychotherapist works through talking therapies and other methods Other than drugs, which the psychiatric mafia labels quackery for the most part.
Right.
Yes.
And you've been a psychotherapist for how many years?
Oh, over 40 at this point.
Right.
I'm still kind of working in the field.
Started out at the biggest psychiatric institution on the planet.
Central State Hospital in Milledfield, Georgia.
That's 1,500 miles from here, 2,000 miles from here.
Yeah.
What was interesting, that was, what, 40, 45 years ago.
And the voices that the schizophrenics were hearing at the state hospital there ran the same exact patterns as they do 2,000 miles away here in Arizona.
Yeah.
Let's not jump the gun, because I am interested in the voices, obviously.
But it's, did you, I mean, is it, in the field of psychotherapy, is it considered a bit of a kind of an unwanted area to have to deal with schizophrenic patients?
Because I mean, I imagine they're among the most potentially dangerous, aren't they?
I mean, most psychologically interesting, but also the most dangerous.
Oh, they can be.
Yeah, and they're kind of, I mean, they've been treated as throwaway people.
Psychiatry will say there is no cure.
You have to take these toxic medications for the rest of your life.
What are the symptoms?
They basically want to control me.
How do you identify a schizophrenic patient?
What are the telltale signs?
Well, they start withdrawing.
They become hostile.
They start hearing voices that they seldom speak about.
They start isolating.
They start doing bizarre things.
They become difficult to control.
They're kind of like rageaholics and things upset them and they go off.
They turn away friends.
They mistrust people.
And there's different kinds of schizophrenia, but the most prevalent and the most disturbing and the most difficult to deal with is paranoid schizophrenia.
Right.
Because they're paranoid.
Right.
And does it normally set in at a particular age, or could it happen at any time to anybody?
Well, the particular age, and I don't know why this is, is around 25.
Right in that area is it hits the most people.
I have no idea why that happens at that particular age.
Right.
And does it always include having voices?
Is that one of the defining qualities of schizophrenia?
Well, that's one of the defining qualities of paranoid schizophrenia, which is the biggest category.
Right.
Of schizophrenia.
There's, you know, they have a bunch of different ones, catatonia, differentiating schizophrenia.
There's a bunch, but the most prevalent one and the most curable one is paranoid schizophrenia.
Right.
Schizophrenia is one of the top 10 health problems in the world, according to the World Health Organization.
Is that right?
I mean, what percentage of the population suffers from this, this problem?
Worldwide, about 1%.
I wonder, I had the figures as to what that translated to, but I think it was something like, in the US, it was something like 250 million, and worldwide it was millions, many millions.
And money spent on research is less than virtually any of the other top 10 maladies that the World Health Organization has identified.
That sounds a crazily large number, a large percentage, 1%.
Are we talking all the varieties of schizophrenia?
I mean, are there kind of mild versions that you kind of, just a bit troubling, but manageable?
Yeah, there are.
And, you know, since I worked in institutions where I saw the worst of the worst for years and years, I was under the impression that, you know, Schizophrenia is schizophrenics couldn't function in society.
Yeah, you know, that that's what I've been dealing with.
Until one fellow who saw our website contacted me and said, Hey, listen, I'm a therapist.
In New York, I worked in psychiatric institutions there.
I'm still hearing voices, I'm still struggling with them.
This happened when I started abusing amphetamine.
And it's not true that there aren't schizophrenics out there functioning.
So he invited me to one of his groups, and here were a number of people who were hearing voices who were functioning in society.
They held down jobs, but they seldom told anybody about the voices.
Yes, for reasons which we can understand, because no one... If you hear voices in your head, and you tell people, They're gonna, A, think you're mad, and B, probably try and commit you to some ghastly institution where you get, well, I mean, tell me, how do schizophrenics normally get treated by the medical system?
Well, working, all the years I spent working in the ER, the medical doctors didn't know what to do with them.
They didn't know how to talk to them.
They didn't know what to do with them.
They just wanted them out of their ER.
So, you know, that's where, you know, after I retired from the psychology department at the state prison where I'd been working for some 18 years with schizophrenics and criminally insane, went to work for this private and big hospitals in the ERs dealing with schizophrenics that were brought in by the police or came in themselves or whatever.
The way they're normally treated is the medical establishment has been, for almost 200 years, trying to prove that schizophrenia was a biological disease.
And they've failed completely.
There is no valid evidence that this is a disease caused by some physiological problem.
They started blaming it on a chemical brain imbalance when Eli Lilly put out Prozac back in the 60s.
And they've been trying to prove that it was caused by physiological factors.
And they completely failed.
They blamed it on a chemical brain imbalance.
Yeah.
And they promoted that because it sold drugs.
But they haven't been able to find any such imbalance.
Matter of fact, not only could they not find it, it's been disproven, but they keep continuing to try to push that this is a biological, physiological disorder that can be treated with their expensive toxic drugs.
Matter of fact, I ran into this from the Mayo Clinic the other day, and I punched up, you know, Mayo Clinic and causes, and this is what they say.
It is not known what the causes of schizophrenia are.
Okay.
So they come out and they say, we don't know what it is or what causes it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's start out with that.
And they go, but researchers believe that it's a combination of genetics, brain chemistry, and environment that contributes to the development of disorder.
Okay.
So that kind of negates, you know, we don't know what it is.
So, There has been no genetic proof.
There is no genetic marker.
There is no schizophrenic gene.
They have absolutely no tests, no biological lab tests, any kind of physiological test, any kind of EKG or EEG.
There are no valid tests to diagnose any of these, you know, 295 schizophrenic or mental disorders that they have in their dictionary You know, it's DSM-5 right now.
So there's problems with certain naturally occurring brain chemicals.
So here they are back to brain chemicals again, which has been disproven, including neurotransmitters.
There's 300 different brain chemicals in the brain.
Yeah.
Okay.
So called dopamine and glutamate may contribute to schizophrenia.
Neuroimaging studies.
Now this is interesting.
Neuroimaging studies show differences in the brain structure and central nervous system of people with schizophrenia.
What they don't tell you is that autopsies of schizophrenics who have been on these neuroleptic meds for years consistently show brain shrinkage and peripheral nervous system damage consistently.
So when researchers found that out, they, hey, you know, there's a, there's a one-to-one correlation between Schizophrenic patients who've been on these, you know, neuroleptic drugs for years, and shrunken brains and damaged nervous systems.
And the psychiatric mafia and their big brother of, you know, pharmaceutical handlers.
But no, no, no, it's caused by the disease of schizophrenia.
So what they did is they ran twin studies, they ran rat studies, they gave one group of rats these toxic neurological drugs.
They gave one twin these drugs, and then they measured their brain.
They could take pictures of it.
They found that their brains were shrunk.
Right.
So these drugs are destroying the brain and the central nervous system of these patients.
And here they're saying, the neuroimaging studies show that schizophrenia causes this again.
It's not the schizophrenia, it's the toxic drugs that they're using to treat these things, which are major tranquilizers.
So you have a schizophrenic who's hearing all these awful voices saying all these terrible things, and they hit him with major tranquilizers, which kind of stuns the brain, starts shutting it down and induces a chemical lobotomy.
Yes.
The side effects are horrendous.
I think we call them chemical kosh, don't we, in the UK?
I don't know if it's the same in America.
It's like being whacked over the head with chemicals.
That's exactly right.
It's like throwing a hand grenade in your brain.
The brain struggles to keep its own balance.
Yeah.
So no matter what's going on with it, it's struggling for its own balance.
So what you find is when they hit these people with these very strong major tranquilizers, it kind of knocks them silly for a while, but it doesn't get rid of the voices and they weaken them.
And then after a while, the effects kind of wear off and the brain struggles to get back to where it was again, to its own balance.
The voices return and the symptoms all return.
These drugs cure absolutely nothing.
They don't fix anything.
They're like a temporary band-aid where they drug the guy silly and the symptoms disappear.
So what they're after is treating the symptoms.
They have no idea what causes it.
Yes, yes.
But if it's proven, and it has been proven, that this is not a chemical genetic Yeah.
Well, they're not, are they?
By the sounds of it.
has got to be asked is what in the blazes are they treating?
Well, they're not, are they?
There is no.
By the sounds of it.
Yeah, no.
They have no idea what they're treating.
That's the problem.
Yeah.
They're going after the symptoms.
They're trying to control the patient, one, because they don't want to be sticking them in straitjackets.
It's easier to get them to take pills and put them into a chemical straitjacket than it is to wrestle them down and tie them.
It's controlled.
The bottom line is controlled.
Yeah, I get that.
Before we go on, I'm just wondering, is there anything you can do to the input level, maybe?
I can hear you, but I'm sort of straining.
I can turn up my headphones, but I don't know if that's going to help on your end.
I don't know.
Is this any better?
Slightly.
We can move this thing closer, maybe.
Yeah.
Is that better?
That's a bit better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, so you, you Started out, I mean you've been working in, well you mentioned 18 years I think, you were working in a prison hospital for like paranoid schizophrenics, the most dangerous people.
Yeah, everything under the sun.
Yeah, yeah.
And you told me something, you said on your previous podcast, something which really surprised me, which was that you were, as a professional psychotherapist, it was considered completely wrong to ask your patients about what the voices were saying or anything like that.
Is that right?
Yeah, yes, that's right.
I got in trouble with that twice with psychiatrists.
One time being pulled up into the chief psychiatrist's office after a patient, now this was at the state hospital.
What's interesting is psychiatrists were getting beat up by schizophrenics at a horrendous rate at the state hospital.
So they didn't want anything that upset them unless they actually had to do something.
So, I think they were kind of intimidated by schizophrenics and they didn't want anybody doing anything that would upset them because you didn't know what they were going to do.
So, I got pulled up there after a schizophrenic guy I was working with complained that his voices got louder after I started asking questions about him and he was upset.
And the psychiatrist said, these are hallucinations.
You're reinforcing them by asking questions about them, and you're making the patient worse, and you're upsetting them, right?
I'm ordering you to quit right now.
Stop doing this.
Now, yesterday, I think I talked to Ben, and I said, hey, what I'll try to do is hunt up a case record, a real case record of when I was exploring this stuff.
So what I have in front of me here is a record when I was still asking patients about the voices.
So I have a page or two here of that dialogue between one patient who was hearing some very strong voices and the questions I was asking him.
If you want, I can read this and point out some of the patterns that they run and what it was like to ask these guys.
about their voices and what they were saying.
Yeah.
Tell me.
I have it here.
So this is one of your, this is one of your early, early patients.
Explorations.
This was 6-13-2001 at 8.40am in the morning.
And this was in the prison.
Now the difference between the state hospital and the prison is that if a patient in the state hospital complained about being upset that he was being asked about their voices.
That was a big deal to the psychiatrist.
In the state prison, if a prisoner went up to the warden and started complaining that the psychologist was asking about his voices, that wouldn't even break the ambient noise level.
They'd kick down my face.
Yeah, I've got other things to deal with other than something like that.
So what I had around me the whole time I was in prison is a handful of select inmates.
who were schizophrenics and had been for years.
And I made a promise to them, I will do everything I can to help you out.
You know, I'm as curious about these things as you are.
I'll do everything in my power to see what we can do to help you.
The only thing I'm going to be asking you is that you tell me in real time what these voices are telling you when we're talking about them, that you try some things and you bring me back the results of what happens.
So, and if I said, if anything, if you start losing it, you come up to my windows, throw some pebbles in my window, and I'll get you in as soon as I can.
So yeah, I always had around me a group of 10 to 15, I guess you would call them criminally insane prisoners that I was constantly working with.
Right.
So this exploration is one of the first ones where I was asking This one prisoner about his voices.
So he comes in and he says, the voices are getting louder.
He said the medication slowed them down for a while at first, when I first started taking.
So here's what I was talking about where the medications hit.
They're major tranquilizers.
They work for a while by calming these guys down and stunning the brain.
The voices don't completely go away in most cases.
But I have seen them disappear.
One case I remember now, this is very unusual.
This guy was bouncing off the walls.
He was psychotic as a bed bug.
They gave him a dose of Thorazine and he came back down to normal, which absolutely amazed me, and functioned that way as long as he had that.
But that is very, very unusual.
Most of the time, what it does is it lowers the volume of the voices.
It calms these guys down, allows them to sleep and to function better.
What it's doing is destroying their brains in the meantime.
So he goes on with, he said, with the new medications, I was able to get some sleep for the first week.
Now, as these are starting, the brain is starting to rebalance itself and take this into account.
He says, now I'm all up all night dealing with the voices.
He said they were screaming at him all night.
Okay.
So that's one of the patterns they run.
They keep these people up.
They do the same thing to these guys.
As we do to prisoners of war.
They keep them up all night.
They harass them constantly.
They don't let them get any peace.
The same thing as the armies do to prisoners of war.
So he says, I'm up all night dealing with the voices.
He says, they are deeming.
They are demons.
Now, back then, I wasn't sure.
But he comes right out and he says, they're demons.
He says it's the same ones.
I asked him, how many are they?
He says, maybe 12 or more.
I said, do they take turns harassing you or do they come all at once?
He says, they come all at once.
They pick on and mock everyone around me.
They find fault with everybody.
They tell me to watch out for everyone and to watch my back.
I try reading the Bible.
When I read the Bible, they aren't as strong and they don't come as frequently, but they're still there.
I still have a hard time concentrating when I'm reading the Bible.
I read a murder mystery or something negative, and I can remember everything that the murder mystery says.
So I found this out back at the state hospital.
I found that the schizophrenics, when the chaplain had a prayer meeting and an ice cream social in the psych rehab center I was working in there at the time, all the schizophrenics didn't go.
They stayed on the ward.
And I found that very curious.
So I started asking them why.
And they didn't like the preacher.
They didn't like churches.
They didn't like the Bible.
And I said, the voices are telling me not to go.
And they go, yeah, the voices are telling me not to go.
And I'm going, well, that's pretty odd for a hallucination.
It's supposed to be an auditory hallucination, according to the psychiatric mafia.
Why would a hallucination have any beef with the Bible?
You know, why would a hallucination want these people to stay away from preachers.
So when I heard something like that, I never took it to the bank.
I started asking all my other schizophrenic patients, has this happened to you?
Do the voices operate this way with you?
And yes, time after time after time after time, they would say, yeah, they hate churches.
They hate the Bible.
They hate preachers.
And that broke down into three classes I found eventually.
If the voices were weak, they would complain, scream, kick, and moan when the patient thought about going to church.
But once they got in there, they shut up.
If the voices were of medium strength, they'd kick, moan, scream, try to discourage the guy from going to church.
But once he got in there, they didn't go away.
They just got louder to block out what the preacher was saying.
And if they were very strong, the guy went to church, when the preacher started talking, They would actually drive him out of the church.
He would get up and run out the doors.
So I found that very odd.
And then when this guy said, when I'm reading a murder mystery, I can remember everything that said, you know, when he's reading something negative.
So the first thing was like, why would a hallucination have any beef with church, the Bible, and psychiatry and preachers.
I mean, and this is consistent among hundreds of different schizophrenics.
I didn't know that at the time.
This was one of the first times I heard of it.
But once I heard of it, I started doing some experiments with this murder mystery thing in the Bible.
So I got all the schizophrenics that I was working with, and I would get a phrase out of the Bible and a phrase out of the murder mystery book that was about the same size.
And I'd say, okay, what I want you to do is read each of these, and then write down what you remember about each of them.
And then I would switch the order, you know, one would be the Bible verse first, and the next one would be the negative verse first, and then the next guy would switch the order.
Consistently, the schizophrenics remembered much more about the negative crap than they did about the positive stuff.
So then I switched away from the Bible and just put, you know, like spiritual positive stuff and it was the same effect.
Their memory was, it was like something else was reading the negative stuff with them.
And that was registering much, much more solidly than the Bible or the positive spiritual stuff.
So they're drawn to anything negative they're drawn to.
Yes.
They're drawn to negativity, like sharks are drawn to blood.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was wondering actually about the anti-sleep, you know, like the prisoner of war sort of treatment, where doesn't that reduce levels of dopamine, which I imagine they feed on kind of misery?
They do.
They feed off negative emotional energy.
That's another interesting phase where I didn't know that for years and years and years.
But what I did notice is that after the voices attacked these people, their energy levels went down to nothing.
You know, some of the prisoners I was working with couldn't even get out of bed in the morning.
They couldn't even get up to eat breakfast.
They were so drained energetically.
And for decades, I thought that this was due to the negative content of the voices.
We're going to kill you.
Somebody else is going to kill you.
You're no good.
You're rotten.
You're stupid.
Everybody hates you.
I mean, it's a constant negativity.
That's one of the patterns.
The voices are constantly unswervingly, persistently, predictably negative and self-destructive in nature.
So you'd done this fascinating, what must have seemed fascinating research, you'd done stuff that you'd all but been forbidden from doing and could only get away with because you were in the prison system where you weren't getting reprimanded for this stuff.
Exactly.
But you must have thought at the time, well this is interesting, but you didn't reach the conclusion that you would reach later.
When was it that you had your your eureka moment where you realized your amazing discovery?
Well, it was years past, you know, this transcript here.
I did not want to.
This guy comes right out and says they're demons.
I didn't want to believe that.
They're demons.
You know, I didn't believe in demons.
You know, I've heard of them.
I never thought I saw any inaction.
I mean, I never saw any demon appear in my door or any kind of anything that looked like a demon other than maybe some of these patients I was working with.
So what I figured out was that these things ran patterns.
So they weren't hallucinations.
Hallucinations don't run fixed, repeatable patterns.
They're random.
Right.
So what I saw that not only were they always negative, so destructive, self-sabotaging to the patient, they were the ones that appeared to be causing the dysfunction when the patient listened to what they had to say.
And what they had to say wasn't word salad.
You know, it wasn't just a bunch of words, you know, that made no sense.
The voice has spoken complete coherent, negative sentences that were always destructive, that were always demeaning, that were always negative.
And, you know, I saw patients at the state hospital just carrying on conversations with them.
It was like one side of a telephone conversation.
So, you know, I knew the voices had something to do with it.
And it appeared that they were driving this.
I didn't want to believe they were demons.
But I knew that they were the cause of this somehow.
And I didn't quite know exactly why.
So I started experimenting with ways to interfere with the messages they were giving to these people.
And there were different, a number of different ways to do that.
I started off, I read one researcher back in the 20s, he was choosing static electric shocks to shock these people and the voices would shut up temporarily.
So I racked my brain, how do I do that?
Without getting fired?
Yes.
And at that time, I was working with Wilson Van Dusen, who was a clinical psychologist, who was working at his private psychiatric institution in California.
And he read this.
And he sent me the book and then he started sending me advertisements for static shock machines.
I'm like, I can't bring one of these into the prison and start shocking prisoners.
They've locked me up.
What are you doing?
So, you know, I had the concept in my brain and I'm like, okay, what, what can I do?
How can I prove this?
I mean, it has to be proven somehow.
And I thought about it for weeks and weeks and weeks.
And that went into months.
And then one day I was talking to her secretary.
And I looked down at her desk, and here was this big rubber band on her desk.
And I stared at it, and I went, there it is.
There it is.
So I scarfed up the rubber band.
Next morning, I called in one of my patients I was working with, and I said, here, I want you to try something.
Now, since the voices, and I got reports that the voices hated the 23rd song.
And several patients said, Repeating the 23rd Psalm is like throwing worms onto a hot frying pan.
That's how the voices reacted to it.
And time after time after time, the patients I asked to repeat the 23rd Psalm, there was a vehement reaction from the voices consistently.
They didn't like it.
So I'm going, well, anything they don't like has got to be bad for them.
And so repeating the 23rd Psalm, You know, they don't like it.
That's got to be bad for him.
Let's hit him with that.
So it was like, I realized I was at war with these things.
And so was the patient, but we didn't know what kind of weapons to use against them.
But I knew that something had to be done, something had to interfere.
So I gave the first patient the rubber band, told him to put it around his wrist.
Every time he heard the voices, to snap it hard and to repeat the 23rd song.
So I called him in the next day and I said, well, how'd that work?
He said, it worked great.
You know, his wrist was red.
He said, yeah, soon as I snapped the rubber band, they shut up.
It was like, it stunned them.
They didn't shut up forever.
They shut up for 15, 20 seconds to a couple of minutes.
But he said that that snap of the rubber band hurt the voices much more than it hurt him and that it worked.
And then the repetition of the 23rd Psalm was like, You know, slapping them in the face.
So even with that rudimental, this was the first rudimentary strike back at the voices.
Even with that, the patient felt like now he had some control over these things and they weren't just rough shodding over him.
When they came, he knew he could throw something back and hit them back.
So, you know, we went on with that.
And then patient after patient after patient, I had all these guys, schizophrenics running around with rubber bands, repeating the 23rd song.
And it was working.
I mean, it was actually working.
It gave some temporary relief where the medications were no longer working.
This was shutting them up at least for a short period of time.
When the chief psychologist found out about this, I was again called up on the red carpet and called up to his office and you will stop this.
You're doing religious stuff.
That's for the chaplains to do.
And I want you to stop handing out these rubber bands that these guys are stinging themselves with, right?
So I was ordered to stop it, even if it worked, and he didn't want to listen to anything else.
You know, that was it.
So it went from... Do you think there was any ulterior reason why he... or was it just he felt uncomfortable with the religious stuff, you think?
I mean, was he being honest, what he was saying?
Well, the first thing that comes to mind in answer to your question, which I remember when I was working in a private psychiatric hospital, and a bunch of patients got together and they were going to do an exorcist on this one patient, an exorcism on this one patient.
So they all gathered in the room.
One of them, and I thought this was quite amusing, one of the nurses saw this and instead of stopping it, she just went, you know, it's probably harmless.
I'll let it go.
She was aware of it.
She let it go.
When psychiatry found out about that, they called her in and they threatened to fire her.
Yeah.
They don't want any digging into this area.
Yeah.
It's almost like it's subconsciously right on the tip of their tongues.
They know that something is there other than all these things that they're, they're blaming this on.
They're spooked out by these guys.
You won't find most psychiatrists spending much time talking to these people.
And all the ones in these institutions, they bring them in, they drug them senseless, they turn them loose.
When they go off their meds, they bring them in again, they put them on meds again.
Most regular talking therapies don't work.
Yes.
Okay, so I shouldn't have interrupted your story.
So you've established that Psalm 23 and the rubber bands work, but you've been banned by the head shrink.
So where do we go from there?
What was your next breakthrough?
Where do we want the next breakthrough?
Oh, there was the girl, wasn't there?
The three strikes and you're out.
That was, yeah, that was later on.
That was toward the end of my term at the state hospital.
So the three strikes you were out was before the prison.
This was a girl in the psych rehab center.
Yeah, this was before where I was gonna tell you.
It was coming to the end of my seven years that I spent at this giant hospital.
I mean, when I got there, there were 12,000 psychiatric patients.
She had gone off her meds twice.
And, you know, I kept asking these guys, why do you go off your meds?
Well, the horrible side effects.
I mean, I can read it.
There's five pages of horrible side effects.
I mean, they're awful.
But the experience of being psychotic or schizophrenic is worse.
Especially if you can't control it and the voices are very strong.
It's worse.
It just destroys your life.
The medications have horrible side effects, but they lower the symptoms.
They lower the voices and they allow these guys to function for some length of time while the medication is destroying their brain and nervous system.
Yeah.
It does allow them to function.
It does bring them under control.
They don't have to use straight jackets.
Um, they can take the pill and it keeps them under control.
So, This was a girl I was working with, she was doing good in her classes.
She went off her meds for the third time.
And, you know, I did some experiments with this.
And, and I gave all these guys I was working with a listing, okay, these are all the right down, I asked them to write down the side effects of the medications that they experienced, because they don't all experience the same ones.
So it was a handful of nasty side effects they complained about.
And then I gave them a listing of all the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia, which was pages, you know, with checkboxes.
And after they gave me the listing there, I gave them both sheets.
And I said, check the symptoms of schizophrenia that you've experienced.
So they checked all these horrible symptoms.
And I asked them, which is worse?
And they, and they'd look at both things.
They go, well, the schizophrenia is worse, consistently.
And dealing with being psychotic is much worse than these, you know, these horrible side effects.
And then I'd ask him, well, then why do you keep going off your meds?
Because they were all going off their meds.
Very few of them would stay on the meds.
They would eventually go off them.
The response I got was, through the first inquiry, was because of the side effects.
And so when I started doing this experiment and found out that Side effects weren't as bad as the psychosis, and they were still going off their meds.
And I'd ask them, well, okay, if the effects of being psychotic are much worse than taking the meds, then why do you keep going off the meds?
You know what their response was?
I don't know.
I don't know.
This went on for years.
And I felt like a crazy guy asking them the same questions over and over and over again.
And I kept getting the same answer, you know, until this girl came along.
And then this was like my last year at the state hospital.
And we were about to throw her out because she went off her meds three times.
And this was a psychiatric rehab center.
If they won't take their meds, that's the only solution that was known at the time.
If they won't do that, then there's nothing more we can do for them.
And we'd kick them out after they went off the third time, because they're proving to us they're not going to stay on these meds.
When we went to discharge her, her mother called me and said, please don't do that.
I can't control her.
I can't handle her here.
I'll come up and talk to you.
We'll find out why she's doing this.
I, you know, work with you.
Please don't discharge her.
So she, the mother comes up and we bring her in and the mother's pleading with her.
Why are you going off your meds?
Why'd you do this?
You know, you're going to get kicked out.
And I'm going, yeah, we, we gave you, this is your third strike.
You went off your meds again.
Why do you do this?
Why do you keep doing this?
You know what happens when you go off your meds.
You get crazy.
You lose it.
You can't function.
You know, horrible, you know, hallucinations start happening.
You start getting suicidal.
Why do you keep doing this?
And she goes, well, you won't believe me.
I said, listen, I've been working at this giant state hospital for seven years.
I don't think you're going to tell me anything that's going to surprise me.
And she goes, okay.
The voices told me not to take the medications.
They told me that the psychiatrist was poisoning me.
And she pointed to all these side effects as proof that she was being poisoned.
And that's what the voices told her.
Yeah, you're being poisoned.
Look at all these horrible things happening to you.
The psychiatrist is poisoning you.
So I went, bam, you know, all these assaults on psychiatrists throughout the hospital.
I mean, and the schizophrenic patients were all beaten on psychiatrists.
They weren't beating up psych nurses.
They weren't beating up psychiatrists.
They weren't, they weren't beating up, uh, uh, you know, nurses, um, even psych nurses who were handing them out their meds.
They weren't assaulting them.
They were assaulting psychiatrists.
The ones who prescribed the drugs.
Yeah.
That were prescribing the drugs that would weaken the voices.
and caused the side effects that the voices didn't like.
So here was another clue that came up.
Oh, the voices are telling these people not to take their medicine.
So that was another one that I could start asking these people.
So the voices were either telling them directly not to take their side of the medications, or they were highlighting the side effects.
So they were bringing up the side effects of these medications and putting them in front of the patient's nose.
So here was a second, so okay, the voices don't want the medications.
So that was another clue.
The next one was that they were liars.
They were consummate liars.
They would make up any lie that the patient would believe, and then they would get them to interpret this lie as the truth.
So that's where the interfering with them came in.
So asking the patient, well, how much do you think you can trust these things?
And they go, well, I can't trust them at all.
They lie all the time.
So trying to bring out the fact that they were liars.
So thing after thing after thing, I experimented with some of them.
I only read you the first page of this transcript.
I think we ought to get back to it at some time.
So these things that would interfere with patterns of the voices ran.
The voices didn't like it.
So I was constantly getting feedback from from the schizophrenic patients I was working with, especially at the prison as to what these different tactics did, and how effective they were with the interfering with the voices.
So as the combination of these different tactics built up, the These patients started coming in and going, the voices are really getting pissed off with you.
And I'm like, is that so?
You know, so here's a hallucination getting pissed off with them.
Why would a hallucination get pissed off with, you know, and, and that's, I got several different reports from some different, all these different guys I'm working with.
They're all, and they didn't know each other.
You know, they come one after another.
They eventually would say, yeah, the voices don't like you.
They're getting pissed off with you.
Until one day, this one guy I was working with, pretty intensively, because he was very interesting, and he was very honest.
As he leaves the office one day, he stops in the doorway, turns around and looks at me.
And he goes, you realize what you're doing is dangerous, don't you?
And I looked at him, I was perplexed.
I was like, what?
They're stuck in your, I'm thinking, you know, they're stuck in your head.
They're not, they can't come out of there.
They're stuck there.
They're in you, they're not in me.
And I'm thinking this, I didn't say anything.
I was just dumbfounded by his statement.
You know, I was like perplexed, like, what danger?
And I didn't say anything because I was taken aback by his statement.
Then he turns around and walks off.
And I'm like, well, what was all that about?
You know, it didn't make any sense to me.
I'm like, OK, these are supposed to be hallucinations.
And even then, you know, I still was kind of going, well, maybe this is some kind of subconscious.
And next time he comes back, he's getting better.
You know, so we continue.
I ignore what the voice is saying.
He knocks on my office door one day without an appointment.
And he said, the voices want to talk to you.
And that took me aback, because that had never happened before.
What would happen is I'd ask the patient questions, and then he would respond.
And I'd say, well, what are the voices saying?
And he'd tell me what the voices were saying.
There was no direct conversation at that time.
There was later on.
I was carrying conversations on with them.
But at that time, I wasn't.
So I was getting all the information through the patient.
They never wanted to speak directly to me.
It was always, well, tell him this and tell them that, you know, kind of thing.
So I brought him in and I was kind of, you know, befuddled.
And I said, well, what is it they have to say?
So he looks at me and, and his voice changes slightly lower and out come these words and never forget them.
You have no right to interfere with our way of life.
That was it.
And he said, that's them.
I said, and I'm looking at him like, you know, now you're shitting me, ain't you?
No, that was them.
That was the voices.
And he said, I didn't say that.
Did that freak you out?
Oh, freaked me totally out because I was already approaching, you know, I was my denial system was already tattered badly, and just barely standing.
Yeah, it was like, here's all this evidence that has already come in.
And like psychiatry, I, I kind of blotted it out, because I didn't want to deal with it.
I didn't want to see it.
I didn't want to believe there such thing as demons.
I didn't want to believe that these things were conscious entities.
But when he said that, and then he comes back shortly right after and said, that wasn't me.
I didn't say that.
That was them.
And then I said, I said something.
And he said, Oh, you don't have to tell me they can hear.
You know, so it was like he was also saying they they're hearing through my ears and they're seeing through my eyes.
They can hear and see everything you're saying.
All you got to do is say it and they get it.
Which was another like, It's like a one-two punch.
The first one was our way of life, which couldn't have been the guy because he was single.
He was one guy in my way of life.
It was our way of life.
Then he says, that wasn't me.
I mean, and he's honest about it.
You know, I didn't sense any duplicity.
And then here comes this second one, you know, so it's like a one-two punch and I was real, you know, after that, I, I, uh, I kind of shut down for the day.
I was like, They are real.
They are separate entities.
It isn't in their heads.
They are not hallucinations.
You know, and who can I talk to about this?
Nobody.
Yeah.
Who could you talk to?
Nobody.
I couldn't talk to anybody.
Nobody.
I couldn't talk to my wife because she was scared shells.
You know, I tried to tell her any of this and she said, Oh, no, no, no, you shouldn't be doing that.
We talked to a psychiatrist and, you know, Hey, I just got talked to by schizophrenic voices.
I mean, or tell, tell one of the other psych staff or, you know, hey there, they came out and they talked to me.
I know you're a Met case, man.
You're the only people I could really talk to about this were the schizophrenics themselves.
Yeah.
So that, that was kind of like a shot across my bow.
You know, it was a warning shot, but I wasn't going to stop.
You know, it was like, it scared me.
But I wasn't going to stop trying to figure out what was going on.
So the other thing I noticed about this time was that every schizophrenic that I was working with after the voices attack were drained.
They were completely energetically drained.
And that was a one-to-one correspondence between the appearance of the voices and their energy level being dropped to nothing.
You know, some couldn't even get out of bed.
You never saw a real energetic Schizophrenic, unless he was angry or pissed off at something, then they're supernaturally strong.
So I was thinking that it was the negative messages that they were being given all the time.
And the voices screaming in their ears, telling them they were no good and to kill themselves and all this stuff.
I mean, I was thinking, well, that's the dream.
And so one day I was assigned to the jail for the prison.
So you have all of these massive prison units, And the worst of the worst are sent to this jail.
And that was the psych over the jail at that time.
They always assigned me to the...
And I kind of liked it because I was an adrenaline junkie.
That's one of the reasons I kept pushing this.
It's like, you know, the adrenaline would surge and I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, no, no.
It's like, yeah, there's a trip.
I understand that.
Here I come into my office one day and here's a letter from a one of the inmates at the at the central detention unit, the jail.
And he's locked in with a florid psychotic inmate who is standing and staring at him at three in the morning, just standing over his bed, staring down at him, speaking to voices, walking the floor all night, having conversations with some invisible something or other, acting very strange.
The cell is a mess.
He won't clean anything up.
He's touchy.
He's irritable.
He's acting strange.
And, you know, he goes, you got to do something about this guy.
And that was from the captain of the unit.
So then at the same time, I get another, an inmate letter from the guy who's relatively normal, who the psychotic guy is watching over.
And I look him up on the computer and find that he had snitched off one of the big gangs, the Aryan Brotherhood in the prison.
He'd snitched off one of their drug deals.
And the administration not only took all their drugs, they took all the leaders of that gang and they broke them up and spread them all over the state.
So they pretty much destroyed the leadership for that gang in the entire complex.
And they were so pissed with this guy, that they were, they had members of their gang that were purposely getting in trouble.
So they could get thrown into the central detention unit to have a chance to kill this guy.
And they'd already stabbed him once.
They already got him once.
And he was put in there for protective custody.
And they were there and they were throwing notes on the restorers saying, we're here.
You know, we're right here.
Soon as we get a shot at you, you're dead.
But they only let these guys out one at a time.
And they only let him out if he had a guard and they would only allow him in these cages with no other inmates.
So they couldn't get at him.
So they would just terrorize him by throwing these notes under his door and saying, yeah, we're here.
We're going to get you.
You're not going to get out of this unit alive.
So you couldn't be under more stress than this guy was.
Yeah.
So I'm seeing them back to back, and it's this perfect experimental situation.
Same staff, same cell, same food, same environment.
You know, everything's the same.
It's just perfect.
So I'm watching as this first guy, the guy who the gangsters are trying to kill, comes up the steps to the control room next to the interview room.
And he just kind of bounds up those steps and doesn't even use the rail, comes in, he's got plenty of energy.
You know, he's upset, he's anxious, he's somewhat depressed, but his energy level is good.
I mean, his speech is coherent.
It's quick.
He's explaining the situation.
He's talking about how upset he is and how afraid he is.
He wasn't like a dish mop.
I mean, he had plenty of energy.
And he's begging, he's got it.
You got to get me out of here.
You got to get me out of this cell.
This guy's a weirdo.
I don't know what he's going to do.
He's acting strange.
He's doing all these crazy things.
Please help me.
And I said, well, you know, I'll talk to the captain, see what we can do.
But I can't guarantee you because they're the guys who run the place.
So he went back and next I pulled in his psychotic roommate and this guy could barely make it up the steps.
He was using the handrail.
He was pulling himself up.
He was slumped over.
He kind of shuffled into the office, fell into the chair like a dishrag.
And I asked him, are you hearing voices?
And he said, yeah, I'm hearing many very strong voices.
And he was not on any medications at the time.
So he was he was floridly psychotic, not being treated for anything.
He was just raw.
And they were beating the crap out of him.
And after I was done with him, I watched as he shuffled back to his cell and they let him in.
And after I was finished with those two guys, I was going, it's not the anxiety caused by the voices.
There's something else that is causing that energy dream.
What is it?
This same information I was about to give you.
Yeah.
It caused a shitload of bizarre stuff to happen in my office.
Did it really?
It did.
And it's the same stuff.
They don't want this particular part out.
They don't want people to know that they are energetic parasites.
Yes.
So that upsets them more.
More than anything else, because people, you know, if you had a leech on your body, you wouldn't just ignore it and go, Oh yeah, that's just a leech.
You know, you should do something to try to get it off of there.
But the schizophrenics didn't know.
I mean, although they were aware that they were being trained, they had no idea as to the cause of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so I'd ask them, you know, scores of them, you know, scores of, All the ones throughout the state hospital, you know, every time the voices come, do you feel an energetic level drop?
And they, yes, yes.
I even did a graph, a study, one to 10, and had them circle how much energy they had before the voices came and how much after.
And we did an analysis of variance on it, and it was significant.
It was statistically significant.
There was a statistically significant drop in their perceived energy level after the voices attacked than previous to the attack.
It was consistent.
They didn't know what was taking their energy.
They just knew it was happening.
So then I'm going, well, if there's a one-to-one correspondence with the voices are coming and their energy disappearing, Why don't they notice it?
Why can't they make that connection between the appearance of the voices and their energy level?
So I started asking them, I said, well, you know, they'd admit, okay, yeah, when the voices come, my energy level disappears.
And I asked them, well, how many times has that happened to you?
And it's, you know, they go, thousands, you know, thousands over the years.
And I go, well, where does your energy go?
And they go, I don't know.
And that was consistent among hundreds of them.
They didn't know where their energy went, you know?
So, you know, I'd say, if you stuck your hand in a fire and got burned, what would be burning?
Oh, the fire.
Well, if you stuck your hand a hundred times in the fire, what would happen?
I'd get burned a hundred times.
Well, if the voices come thousands of times and each time your energy level drops, where did it go?
Well, I don't know.
Some of them would say they take it, you know, like question, they take it.
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
Now that made a huge difference.
Once they were aware that these things were energetic parasites.
So that's why they don't want people to know that.
So that's why with this one patient, I was telling you, I was about to pull him in when, when the, you know, you lost your... See, these kinds of things, when I'm talking about this subject, for your Wi-Fi to go out is nothing new.
Yeah, you know, there's all kinds of electronic stuff that happens when I'm talking about this stuff.
They don't like it.
Yes.
So what, what happened with this case was, I brought this one prisoner in where whose voice to say, you have no right to interfere with our way of life, brought in this book by the shaman Miguel Ruiz, talking about the energy drain, and how these entities take the energy Yeah.
And what I was wanting to do, I was constantly questioning and asking questions of these guys, very much unlike psychiatry that says, Oh, yeah, they're hallucinations, take these drugs and go away.
You know, I wanted to find out everything I could about these voices, which I knew were not hallucinations, you know, but you couldn't talk to them about it.
So I read this paragraph, and I started into it.
And when it got to the point where he was talking about These entities being energetic parasites, they only could feed off of negative emotional energy, which accounted for their constantly giving negative, inserting negative thoughts and kill yourself and kill your mom and kill everybody.
And, you know, all this whole plethora of negative, horrendously negative, awful things.
You're not, you know, you're not worth living.
You're going to die.
Everybody hates you.
I mean, all this negative stuff.
It creates that negative emotional energy that they feed off it.
So when I started reading this to this fellow, you know, and I was saying, I said, give me your opinion on what this guy says.
What's what's your reaction?
What's your reaction to the voices to what this guy had to say?
I know, no sooner got to the part where they were parasites, then the office wall behind my head started crackling.
like an electrical arc welder, and it was loud.
It was like, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, and I'm like, what the hell is going on?
And I'm looking around, and it's like, shit, what is this?
And it didn't just go, they did it for one second, it kept going.
And then it starts moving up the wall, my right office wall, and it's like, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, all the way up the frigging wall.
And I'm looking at the patient, and he's just got this zombie look on his face, like, you know, like some kind of, you know, it's like, no emotion, just flat affect, just staring at me, you know, and just not moving, just completely, you know, silent and motionless.
And that freaked me out.
I'm like, okay, this guy's gonna attack.
So you know, the only thing we had for a guard in the medical unit where I worked with a they always put the female guards there.
So You know, but if you were to get attacked, you know, you're on your own, really, you're basically on your own, they'll call for help, but then take them 15 minutes to get there.
And by then you're toast if you don't fight back.
So I push back against the office wall, so I can kick this guy back if he comes at me.
And then I'm trying to divide my attention between keeping an eye on him and looking for whatever was causing this crackling.
You know, And I saw nothing.
I smelled nothing.
I could sense nothing else, but I could clearly hear it and it was moving.
And then it started moving across the top of the office in the corner, right over his head.
So I could keep an eye on the crackling and him at the same time.
But I saw nothing coming from where the crackling was.
There was no smoke.
There was nothing else other than this loud electrical crackling.
And it just kept moving, moved across the office.
And this is going on for like 20 or 30 seconds.
And I'm like, what the hell is this?
When it's going to stop?
And what is going on?
And what is this guy doing?
And why does he look like a weirdo?
And is he going to attack me?
And I got all this stuff going through my head.
And I'm like, trying to figure this out.
And it's making no sense.
And it's like, what the, you know, and then the thing starts cracking down the office wall, right next to me.
And it jumps into this Rubbermaid trash can right at my, you know, right near my feet.
And I look at him and he's still sitting there.
I look down in that trash can and it's completely empty.
It was emptied by the inmate porter last night.
There's nothing in there.
But yet it's crackling.
And then all of a sudden I look up at him and it just stops dead.
It just stops.
And you know, I asked him, did you hear that?
And he doesn't get any, there's no response.
And he just gets up and he goes, I gotta leave.
And I'm like, get the hell out and go!
Oh, yeah.
And I'm, you know, I'm like, freaked out and totally freaked out.
Yeah.
Like, and he shuffles out of there.
And he walks down the hall and he disappears.
And I'm sitting there completely, completely shocked, stunned.
You know, my mind's like, what the freak just happened?
So I go out into the hallway, and I start checking all the doors.
And all the doctor's doors are locked.
There's nobody there.
The nurse isn't there yet.
The only person there is me and the guard out front.
That's it.
And there's no machinery.
There's nothing running that would cause this phenomenon.
I'm completely blown away.
I was in such shock, I just stared out the window.
I closed my office door and all day I canceled all my appointments and just stared out the window.
And it was like, what am I getting into?
And what was even scarier was I didn't think these things could affect physical reality.
But if they could do that, it could affect physical reality.
And my next question is, what the frick else can they do?
If they can do this, what else?
No.
So I was so freaked out that I didn't call that guy back for probably three to four months until I got my nerve up, you know, to call him back and ask him what the hell just happened.
So my The Nile system at this point was ashes.
It was now completely destroyed.
It wasn't hanging on by a fingernail.
It wasn't hanging on by a thread.
It was now completely destroyed.
And my entire concept of the world and psychological reality and all reality had just like an earthquake had just hit.
And it was like everything changed.
And it was like, okay, where do I go now?
What's going to happen?
You know, what am I messing with?
Am I starting to go crazy?
Because I couldn't talk to anybody about that either.
There was nobody I could talk about that phenomenon.
You know, not while I was working anyway.
I can talk about this stuff now that I'm retired because they can't do anything to me.
If I said that while I was working, forget it.
So that's basically it.
The reason you can talk now is because they can't sack you.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm retired.
They can't, they can't come at me.
They can't take my, matter of fact, I dropped my license because I knew they would take it.
You know, they would go, Oh, this guy's a dingbat.
We're going to take his license and break down his dingbat.
So I just dropped it.
So they couldn't take it.
Yes.
I mean, I imagine for most of your career, if you'd met a psychotherapist who'd come up with this stuff, you know, I've been treating these schizophrenic patients and I've discovered that the voices in their heads are real and they're demons.
What do you think?
How would you react to that?
He's a dingbat.
He's a complete dingbat.
Everybody knows their hallucinations.
It says it in the books.
It says it in the textbooks.
They're teaching it in the university.
The psychiatrists are all saying it.
They all attest to it.
The whole world believes these are hallucinations, and you're the only one who has experienced that.
Once you experience this stuff, it doesn't matter what they say in the books anymore.
I mean, this is your real-life experience.
This has happened to you.
And here's hundreds of schizophrenics attesting to these same patterns, and you can't come out and say anything about it because you'll be labeled a crazy dingbat.
The only people who can confirm your thesis are all crazy!
It's one hell of a situation to be in!
So how did you deal with that?
Well, I couldn't talk to anybody about it.
The only people I could talk to about it was the schizophrenics themselves and I thought I was going crazy.
Yeah.
I called.
I did.
I thought, you know, I'm going nuts.
I mean, something has changed in my brain from talking to these guys.
And I'm starting to get crazy.
Was this a hallucination?
Was this reality?
Did it really happen or did it not happen or what just happened?
You know, but I heard it.
I experienced it.
You know, I thought he did, but he didn't say anything.
So four months later, I call him back.
I have the guards bring him down to my office.
And he comes in and he looks good.
You know, I thought he was going to be a wreck.
I thought he'd be a complete wreck, because if they can do that, and they were living in him, then I'm thinking they probably, you know, he'd be a mess by the time I called him back.
But it took me three or four months to get the courage up to call him back.
So fine, I called him back, he comes in, he looks good, he's got plenty of energy, and I'm shocked.
I'm like, I thought he'd be destroyed.
He said, No, no, I've been working with the techniques you gave me.
I'm able to keep them down.
I'm able to keep the voices under control somewhat.
Enough to, you know, to where he was able to function okay.
He didn't get rid of them, but he had them under somewhat control.
And, you know, I asked him, I said, you know, the last time you were in my office, you know, did you hear that crackling that went around the room?
He goes, Yeah, I heard it.
But I'm surprised you did.
And I'm like, what the hell was that?
And he said, well, that was them.
And I'm like, what?
Them who?
Was that the voices?
And he goes, yeah, that was the voices.
And I said, you know, first of all, I didn't think they could do anything like that.
And I said, well, you know, what were they doing?
And he said, well, they were trying to scare you away.
And I said, well, you know, they did a good job of that.
They scared the hell out of me.
And then I asked him, You know, you look pretty weird when you were leaving my office that day.
I said, what were you thinking?
What were the voices telling you as you left the office?
And he said, they were they were telling me to go get a shank and stick it in your belly.
A shank is a homemade prison knife made out of a piece of metal that they sharpen and stab each other with.
And I'm, you know, all confident.
I've been working with you for six months.
You wouldn't do anything like that.
I was confident that he'd say, yeah, but I wouldn't do anything like that.
And I said, well, why didn't you do it?
And he went, like a sucker said, he said, because I couldn't find one.
And he left it at that.
He never fully recovered.
He never fully recovered.
So that's when it was deadly serious.
And yeah, I couldn't tell anybody about this.
I had to keep it to myself.
And I'm thinking, am I losing it?
Am I going crazy?
You know?
But once they found out that these things were parasites, that changes their whole concept of what's going on.
When I was working for the ERs in the hospitals, in the private hospitals, in these big psychiatric emergency rooms, They didn't give you much time to work with the patient.
They wanted you to just diagnose him.
Can we get rid of them?
Can we get him out of here?
Can we send him to a mental health clinic?
Can we send him home?
Do we have to commit him?
But they wanted them out of the emergency room because they didn't know what to do with them.
They didn't know how to handle them.
They just wanted them gone.
Yeah.
So I'm left with figuring out what to do with them.
But I was still trying to help these guys.
They didn't give you very much time to do that.
So if I could just get that one point across to these people, that these voices, if they knew they were entities different than themselves, that's a big one.
Because these things try to convince these people that they are their own thoughts, that they belong to them.
And we're taught as youngsters that all thoughts that flow into our head belong to us.
They are us.
You know, that they belong to you.
When you start talking to schizophrenics, and it becomes very clear that these thoughts and these lines and these sentences that enter their heads are not them.
Yeah.
And these thoughts do not belong to them, and that they're inserted into their thought stream to upset them, and to upset them to generate negative emotional energy, which these entities feed off of.
And once they understand that... I imagine that in the prison hospitals, a lot of the people are there are inside for having murdered people, having done really terrible things.
And presumably, if your thesis is correct, then these demons are driving them to kill people in order to generate the negative energy which they feed off.
Is that the kind of thing?
Well, not only to kill other people, but to kill themselves.
So what you have is a suicide rate for schizophrenics that's approximately five times higher than the normal population.
Right.
And it is these voices that drive them to that.
Now, the psychiatric mafia will say, oh, these are hallucinations.
And they tell their patients to ignore them.
If they were to take any time to check out their recommendation that patients ignore them, They would find that the voices get louder when they're ignored.
You can't ignore them.
They get louder consistently.
And I've talked to hundreds of patients about that.
It's the same with all of them.
They run these patterns, they get louder.
So they go, take your medications and ignore the voices.
You know, they're hallucinations.
As long as they're hallucinations, there's nothing you can do about it.
And they haven't ever studied them.
You know, without any research, they proclaim these are hallucinations because we said so.
And we're doctors and we're psychiatrists and we know it all.
What would the rationale be, though, of if these are parasites, why would they persuade the host to kill himself when presumably then it's over?
Or do they get an extra buzz, do you reckon, when he kills himself?
You know what, that's a question I've asked myself for a long time.
The first thing is it generates one hell of a lot of negative emotional energy when you're thinking about killing yourself.
And a lot more when you've tried it 10 or 20 times and you survive each time, each time knowing that this might be your last time.
That generates one hell of a lot of negative emotional energy.
It's not easy to kill yourself.
You know, figure out how, what you can do, how's it gonna affect your family?
I mean, a lot of negative energy.
But the question I had was, well, okay, if they kill themselves, then what are these things feeding on if the guy's dead?
Yeah.
Why are they killing their food source?
Yeah.
I don't have an answer for that.
Now, there was one case where the voices, they convinced the patient to kill himself.
He was about to do it.
He had a gun to his head and they stopped him.
You know, they stopped him from killing himself and then went on tormenting him.
That was just one case.
Now, what's interesting is that the suicide rate of psychiatrists is equivalent to that of psychotics.
Why is that?
And they have one of the highest suicide rates.
Well, you know, I have my theories about that.
It is.
It's as high as dentists and higher than The suicide rate of any other doctor.
So I think there's one, there's two things.
There's one, the voices hate their guts because these medications, although they're toxic, they do interfere with the, they're major tranquilizers.
Yeah.
And a major tranquilizer will interfere with the patient becoming out of control, crazy, paranoid, you know, all that stuff.
Yeah.
They cramp their style, basically.
Cramp their style, you know, they interfere with what they're trying to do.
Yeah.
You know, despite the fact that these, these medications are, are toxic and they are destroying the brain slowly.
Uh, the second thing is I think psychiatrists know what they're doing.
I mean, they've, they've, they've been doing this for centuries.
You know, they would, they would bleed people.
They would, they, they do electroshock therapy on their brains.
They would give them insulin shocks.
They would put them in straitjackets.
They would hang them from ropes.
They would give them emetics to make them throw up.
All these things to keep schizophrenics and psychotic people under control.
Now, when they make them sick with emetics, they'd throw up and they wouldn't feel like causing any trouble.
They'd just feel sick.
You know how you feel sick when you get carsick or airsick?
You don't feel like doing anything for the rest of the day.
No.
So they'd give them these medicines that would make them sick.
And then they would just go for the rest of the day and just go, I don't feel like causing any trouble.
But if you did the same thing with insulin, insulin suck.
But is your theory that the demons are actually getting inside the psychiatrist's heads and persuading them to kill themselves?
Well, when you think that all behavior emerges from thought first.
You have the thought first.
You do.
You know, when you perform an intentional action, the thought comes.
I'll pick up this pen, or I'll go to the store, or I think I'll drink a glass of milk.
You have the thought first.
Same thing with these schizophrenics.
The thoughts are flowing into their heads.
Kill yourself.
Nobody likes you.
You're worthless.
You're worthwhile.
You're worthless.
You know, Kill yourself and make it easy on everybody.
You're no good.
You're rotten.
You know, all these thoughts emerge first.
Same thing, unless it's an automatic fixed pattern, you know, like something you practice over and over and over and over again, where you really don't think about it.
But yeah, killing yourself is an intentional, prevaricated, thought out act.
Yeah.
So when you consider that, it's like, okay, The thought is driving the action.
They don't just all of a sudden, one day out of nowhere, just pick up a gun and shoot themselves.
I mean, they think about it for a while.
So, one thing that goes back to, where do thoughts come from?
You never ask that question.
Do all thoughts belong to you?
And if you just think about it a minute, Everybody's experienced a time where they're just cruising down the sidewalk and, you know, looking at the trees and just, you know, kind of mellowed out and doing whatever they're doing.
All of a sudden, this horrendous, terrible thought comes into your head and it's like, well, BAM!
You know, where did that come from?
The last example I remember of that happening to me is, you know, out here in Arizona, we don't cut grass.
You go out in the backyard with a machete and chop away the cactus that are starting to overrun your yard.
So I was out there with my dog, who's a beautiful Siberian Husky, pure white.
And she's out there just running around, not causing any trouble.
And I'm chopping cactus with the machete.
And she comes running by and here comes this thought, chop off her head.
And I'm like, what?
What?
Where the hell did that come from?
That wasn't anything I've ever considered.
She didn't do anything to provoke that.
That wasn't anything I would certainly ever carry out.
It wasn't anything I would voluntarily think on my own.
You know, it just didn't fit.
And it just sent willies up my spine.
It's just like, Oh, where did that come from?
You know, it didn't belong to me.
It's not mine.
You know, I would never do anything like that.
I would never think anything like that.
I would never have that intention.
So where did that frickin come from?
I knew where it came from, but still it upset me.
Even though I knew it wasn't mine.
Even though I knew where it came from, just that idea entering my mind was upsetting.
And it took me 15-20 minutes to calm down from that.
I've had that experience so many times.
In fact, once, probably not far from where you live, at the Grand Canyon, when I went... Jump over, jump off the cliff.
Yeah.
That's a common one.
I had a preacher tell me that same thing.
He was standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon, And a thought came into his head, jump!
Yes, yeah, yeah.
You're not the only one.
I wanted to talk to you actually, Jerry, about, because I, after listening to that podcast you did, it suddenly made sense of an experience that I had early in my life.
Because later on in your podcast, you talk about the Crystal meth seems to be a particularly a gateway to this bad stuff.
Yeah It's like opening the doors and saying come on in.
Yeah so I had a similar we'll talk about crystal meth in a moment But I had a similar when I was when I was, you know in my early 20s, I think I was doing LSD and I had
A really, really bad trip in which I became convinced that a man on the end of my cigarette, and I could see him, it was like a nightmare.
A man on the end of my cigarette stole my soul.
And he was wearing a tall hat, and no matter how much I flicked the ash of my cigarette, he would always be there.
And it was like he'd taken control of my brain.
And it took me a very long time to get over this bad trip.
I mean, I was drained emotionally.
I was...
Yeah, I wondered whether I was ever going to get my mojo back, in fact, whether I was ever going to... I felt a bit like Sid Barrett, you know, in Pink Floyd, after he'd had his bad acid trip.
Must have done.
It was terrible.
And I was wondering whether... Have you spoken to people who've taken hallucinogens, who've had this experience?
Or is it purely crystal meth?
Nothing like that.
What did this thing look like that you saw on the edge of your cigarette?
He had a tall hat on him and he seemed to be smoking a sort of pipe almost.
It was weird.
Was it like a shadow or could you make out the facial features?
Or was it just like a humanoid figure?
Just a sort of shadowy figure.
Shadow people.
Shadow people?
Yeah, shadow people.
I first became aware of them while I was working with prisoners.
And prisoners were getting thrown into the prison by the droves because they were using crystal meth.
And then they got into trouble.
And then they started hearing voices.
So not only did they start doing criminal stuff, they started hearing voices and the voices did not go away.
So what they thought when they first started, and this is talking to scores of them, what they first thought when they started using crystal meth was they heard voices, they thought they were hallucinations, And when they came down, the voices went away.
So they were convinced that the voices were hallucinations because when they came down and got off the drug and the drug wore out, the voices disappeared.
So they just went on going, Oh yeah, they're just hallucinations, even though they said bad stuff.
And then maybe weeks or months later, then they didn't go away.
They stayed and they were the same voices that the schizophrenics were hearing that I had studied earlier.
So, The meth had opened the door to the entry of these things, and now these guys were as schizophrenic or psychotic as any of the mental patients that I worked with in any of the hospitals.
Now, the shadow people, I'm still not exactly sure what they are, but I got a fair amount of feedback from them.
Not from them, because they seldom speak.
It's interesting you saw that on an LSD trip.
You're the only guy I've ever heard of who has seen one on an LSD trip.
Usually it's meth trips or other kinds of drugs, but I've never heard one on psilocybin or any of the psychedelic drugs.
This is the first time.
But if it was a three-dimensional shadow, you couldn't make out the facial features, and that's them.
And both the meth people and the schizophrenics were all reporting they were seeing these shadow people enter their rooms.
And they never saw the face and they never spoke.
Now, as I got working in the emergency rooms with some of these, some of the worst meth users coming in on an emergency basis, they were reporting they saw their eyes and the eyes were either green or red, lime green or red, which isn't a good color for eyes.
So I was, I was actually using that as a clinical indicator with these meth addicts that would You know, I've come across in the emergency room.
If they saw the eyes, they were in worse shape than the ones who didn't see the eyes.
And by, you know, like a magnitude of difference.
Yeah.
Now, these things never spoke to them.
They scared them all the time.
They walked through walls, they showed up at their beds, they showed up on their beds.
And they were just watching them.
And then I spoke to one gal who felt them enter her, and she said when they entered her, her whole demeanor changed.
Her whole outlook changed.
It turned very negative.
It turned very sour.
And then when they left, she became herself again.
But I haven't received a lot of reports of them actually possessing people, just two that I can remember.
And then I came across one inmate in the prison who reported that he and one of his friends were experimenting with what they were, they both experienced these shadow people.
Yeah.
And they were wondering what they were, and then they were wondering if they were both seeing the same ones.
And that got my attention right away.
Because, you know, normally what happened was, if the person spotted the shadow people, The prisoners called them tree people.
They said they stayed up in the trees all the time.
But if they stared at them, they would start moving in toward them.
It was like they could sense that somebody was able to see them and then start moving toward them.
And then I'd ask, well, what happened?
All of them ran away.
I mean, all of them.
Nobody waited for that thing to come up to them and do whatever it was going to do.
When they saw that coming, they left.
I never got any feedback with what they did, if they did move in.
So here was these guys, this guy began telling me the story.
He said, me and my friend decided we were going to go out to the Indian reservation out there, Three Points, which is in the middle of nowhere.
And we were going to experiment.
We were going to see if we're both seeing the same ones.
And they were injecting, they were injecting heroin.
They were shooting, not heroin, but meth.
So they both went out there in the truck and the first guy shot up.
And he started seeing the shadow people, and he started asking the other one, hey, do you see the one over there by the tree?
No, I don't see it.
How about this other one over here to the left?
No, I don't see him.
So they determined that the guy who had shot up was seeing the shadow people, and the guy who didn't wasn't.
So the guy who wasn't seeing the shadow people injected the meth, and then in a few minutes started asking each other, you see that one over there?
Yeah, I see.
What's he doing?
Well, he's just sitting there doing this thing.
What about over there?
Do you see any over in the left over there?
Yeah, yeah, I see one over there.
So they, they compared notes for a good while while they're watching these things.
And they both determined that they were seeing the same entity at the same time.
So they were seeing the same thing.
Now, you know, what they were doing while they were watching these things is, you know, like, like all these other guys have told me, When you concentrate and you look at them, they start moving in on you.
So these guys were so fascinated with their little experiment that they didn't realize that they were being surrounded by these things.
They were completely surrounded by shadow people out in the middle of the desert at night in the middle of nowhere.
And they're both full of meth and they're both seeing that they're surrounded by these things and they're moving in on them because they're paying attention to them.
So they jump in the truck, they lock the door, and they're walking inside the truck thinking, oh yeah, we're safe in the truck.
And then all of a sudden, the back of the truck goes down like, bam!
And the front jerks up.
And they look at the back of the truck, and the whole back of the truck is filled with these things.
So right away, that sent a shock of alarm through me.
Because if whatever these things are can make a truck recoil like that and can affect physical reality like that, my next question was the same question I had before.
If they can affect physical reality, what else can they do?
If they can make a truck recoil like a big boulder hit the back of the bed and the front of the truck jumps up, what else can they do?
I was going to change my light.
Hang on.
Give me one second.
Okay.
So you asked the guy, yeah.
You know, I asked the guy, I said, well, did they follow you?
Because they started the truck and almost wrecked it getting out of there.
So I said, well, did they follow you?
And he said, no.
So, you know, I saw that they could affect physical reality.
I saw that they can change the state of if they enter somebody, they can change their mood.
They can change their state.
But I've never heard anybody say that one entered them and it wouldn't come out.
You know, everybody who said that one entered them, they said they eventually came out.
I saw one of these things out of the corner of my eye once.
I mean, it was this big black blob.
And when I turned, I mean, I could see it out of the corner of my eye.
It darkened the whole side of the room.
When I turned to look and stare at it, nothing was there.
If they turn on the light, they're gone.
You know, they vanish.
It's quite interesting that this stuff when I when I recommend I've got a telegram channel where I talk about stuff like this idea that looks like my light's not working.
Telegram channel where I talk about stuff like this and people referred me to Carlos Castaneda.
Have you read any of his stuff?
He writes a lot.
Yeah, he's he is the one that got me started on this.
You know, and so I've read all his books.
I've been studying them for years.
While I was working at the state hospital, I was, I was, you know, the state hospital was taken by storm by Castaneda, who was mentored supposedly by a yaki shaman called Don Juan.
So they're talking about the shamanic view of reality.
So I started practicing some of the things that Castaneda said, and they rang true to me, but I couldn't prove them.
So one day I went out in the woods and I was doing one of these exercises that he suggested.
And I was out in the middle of the woods at night and all of a sudden this spark appeared out of nowhere.
I mean, a bright spark, like from a fire.
And it just went at a 45 degree angle downward, past these bushes and down into the ground.
And I saw that.
And it was like, I saw that.
There's no doubt I saw it.
So it weirded me out.
And then there was one time I went with a girlfriend.
So I knew that these entities existed.
And I took her out to this place where there was a ring of trees out in the middle of a big farm field.
And I felt that if I took her out there, I would be able to show her some of this, whatever this weirdness was.
So we went out there at night and we're sitting there and I'm waiting for something to happen.
It's like something new that If I took her out there, some sign would happen.
So we're sitting there and all of a sudden in the tops of the trees that surrounded this kind of water hole were crack, crack, crack, crack, crack.
Branches were being broken up above our heads.
And then it comes down and on the leaves on the ground, it was like somebody urinating on leaves.
The sound you have when somebody's urine pissing on leaves.
And it's moving right towards both of us.
And I'm like, whoa, what the hell is that?
And she screams out, don't piss on me!
And then it was gone.
Just like that.
So here's all these strange things happening that were based on Castaneda's work.
So they're like verifications of what he was trying to say.
But the most important one that I ran into was that the human mind When it confronts something that is outside of its box, like these voices, when it confronts something that doesn't fit in with its reality, that, you know, here's this thing that happens, like the things that happen with the voices.
And you look at that, it doesn't fit into your cognitive map.
It doesn't fit into your view of the world.
It doesn't fit in with the reality that you understand at all.
Castaneda says, you know, What's going to happen is that your mind is going to do a couple, one of a couple of things.
It'll either blot it out and say, I didn't see that, you know, or, and just, just push it out.
You know, well, I didn't see that, or I didn't see a ghost or I didn't, you know, just, you just ignore it.
Kind of like psychiatry going, Oh, These voices are not conscious.
They're not entities.
They're, you know, there's a blotting them out.
Doesn't fit into their reality.
The second thing, if it does fit in your reality, which you grab ahold of it and your mind is going to try to fit it into your reality somehow.
It's going to pound a square peg into a round hole and try to come up with some rational explanation.
Yeah.
Even though it doesn't fit.
I got, I got an engineer friend who does that all the time.
It doesn't fit, but it sounds logical.
It sounds rational, but it doesn't fit.
Or it's going to make you forget the entire thing.
So what I had to do was come up with an experiment where I could generate a bizarre situation And again, I was working at the state hospital when I did this.
I read Castaneda.
I'm going, I have to see if this is true.
This is the key.
If your mind will blot out anything that does not fit into its reality, or change it, or morph it, where what you see vanishes and is swept away, that's critical to know.
Because I was seeing all this weird stuff that didn't fit.
So I had, I was thinking like, okay, how can I verify this?
How can I freaking verify this?
And I was thinking about it for months and months and months, you know, how can I verify this without getting fired?
Yeah, it was like, you know, one day, one day it dawned on me, it was like, there was one fella I was working with who We rehabilitated.
He became a friend.
I kept track of him.
He stayed in Milledgeville.
He opened up a little beauty shop and he was making a living and he was doing good.
I stopped in and visited him.
They gave me free haircuts for the rest of the time I was there because we worked together at the hospital.
He was a patient and I got him through the cosmetology class and helped him get a new start on life.
He was an interesting character.
I'd stop by his beauty shop every once in a while and see how he was doing, get a haircut.
He was an ex-prisoner and he was crazy like a fox.
So they were about to send him to prison again, and he convinced them that he was crazy.
So instead of going to prison, they sent him to the psychiatric unit I was working on at the time.
And I saw that he was crazy like a fox, but he didn't have any vocation.
He didn't have any training where he could do anything legally other than rob people.
So I sent him to a vocational school.
He graduated from that, got a job and, and probably still working as a cosmetologist.
But he was, he was not clinically crazy, but crazy, crazy, stupid, crazy, you know, he, he do bizarre things, but he wasn't clinically nuts.
So, One day it just dawned on me, a friend of mine that I had as a kid, he gave me this Nazi uniform that I'd wear to costume parties and Halloween.
I got a German helmet.
I bought a replica MP40 Smitzer machine gun.
I had a string of machine gun bullets across my, you know, so I virtually had a Nazi stormtrooper outfit.
Yeah.
You know, I'm like, Okay, I got this thing.
That's pretty bizarre.
You know, and boom, it dawned on me how to use it.
Rick, a friend of mine, worked at one of the psych units.
And I had had a date with these two psychiatric social workers.
Now, Rick lived out at the lake.
And there was like a long dirt road that you had to take to get there.
So I'm thinking, here's my chance, here's my chance.
So I call up James, and I tell him, James, I need your help with something.
This is crazy, and you're the only one crazy enough I know that will do something like this.
Funny he's called James, yep.
Well, that was his real name.
So I tell him what it is.
I said, listen, this is what I'd like you to do.
You know, this is what I want to find out.
If what Castaneda had to say is real enough.
I mean, I need to know this.
I need your help, because I don't know anybody else who will help me with this.
You got to help.
So I said, what I'd like you to do is James, Rick and I have a date with these two psychiatric social workers on Saturday night.
And it's going to be out at his place on the lake.
So What I want you to do is dress up.
I'm going to give you the machine gun.
I'm going to give you the bullets of the Nazi uniform and all that kind of stuff.
And I want you to walk out in front of the car that I'm taking these guys in.
Don't turn toward the car.
Just walk out and then disappear to the other side.
So we had it.
We went out there and we found a clump of bushes where he could hide in that Nazi uniform.
So what I've set it up to where I'd have the The high beam headlights on, I would stop the car and go investigate something and then disappear off the road into the bushes to my left.
Soon as I disappeared off to the left, James would come out in this full fledged Nazi uniform with the machine gun.
With the jackboots, with the Nazi insignias, with the Nazi armbands, with the machine gun, with the German helmet, right in front of the high-beam headlights, and slowly walk in front of the car, not turn toward them, not act like they didn't exist.
The point was not to scare them.
It was to see what their reaction would be to something like that happening that made absolutely no sense at all.
A Nazi stormtrooper appearing right in front of the car in the middle of frickin nowhere at night.
You know, so soon as soon as I disappeared into the bushes, James came out and slowly walking around the car.
Now what I told him is walk slow enough to give me time to run back toward the car and be at the driver's door before you go into the bushes on the other side.
And I didn't want them to have time to be scared.
I didn't want to let them sit there alone.
You know, I wanted to be there when James disappeared.
Yeah.
And it worked like a charm.
It went off just like, you know, you know, he hit his car somewhere else.
He took himself back.
I got back in the car and started driving.
And I didn't say anything.
Yeah.
And then then they asked that they were quiet for a long time.
They didn't say anything for a long time.
And then they asked me, well, what did you see?
And I went, well, you know, I thought I saw a tank, but there's, there's no reason for a tank to be here.
You know, we're not near any army bases.
It's a middle of nowhere, but I didn't see anything when I, there's nothing there, you know?
So we drive a little further and they don't, they still don't say anything and I'm sitting there on pins and needles, you know, I don't want to egg them on or pick or anything like that.
I want them to, Fill me in on what their reality was.
And then one of them says, probably minutes later, we saw a soldier.
The first degradation, it was no longer a Nazi stormtrooper with a machine gun and a Nazi helmet, Nazi signature.
It was a soldier, which made a whole hell of a lot more sense than a Nazi.
What would a Nazi soldier be doing in the middle of absolutely nowhere, walking around with a frigging machine gun, machine gun bullets, dressed to the hilt with a Nazi insignia, helmet, jack boots.
Why would such a thing happen in the middle of nowhere?
You know, but they both saw it.
So, you know, they both saw it.
But the thing is, they weren't, you know, while we were driving, it wasn't like, hey, did you see that?
Or yeah, they weren't comparing notes.
You know, they were just sitting there silent when one of them blurted that out.
And I said, soldier, come on, there's no army base near here.
How could you see a soldier near here?
You know, there's there's what would a soldier be doing in the middle of nowhere?
So they went quiet again.
So we got to Rick's house.
And I told Rick later on, I said, Hey, Rick, it's been a weird night.
These guys, you know, I thought I saw a tank.
These guys said they saw a soldier walking in front of the car or they saw a soldier walking from the car.
And I said, could it have been a hunter?
Is it hunting season right now?
Or they, they changed it to hunter.
I said, tell Rick what you saw.
And they said, well, we saw a hunter.
So it went from Nazi soldier to soldier to hunter.
And then I asked Rick, you know, hey, Rick, is it hunting season?
No, it's not hunting season.
Is there any reason for a hunter to be walking around at night without a flashlight?
What would he be hunting?
No, it doesn't make any sense.
So look at the degrations right in front of my eyes.
It went from a Nazi soldier to a soldier to a hunter.
And then when they were finished their internship, I was taking the, I was with them both driving one of them back to the airport.
And on the way to the airport, I said, Hey, uh, you guys remember that weird night we had at Rick's house?
Um, something, you know, what, something odd happened.
What was it?
And they go, they didn't remember.
They didn't, they wiped it out.
So here it was right in front of my eyes.
So from that time on, every time something weird happened with a schizophrenic, I wrote it down because I would start forgetting.
So I knew that if it didn't fit into my mindset, I would forget it, my mind would wipe it out.
Yes.
Yeah.
So at that point, it was like, okay, when I get this stuff, I'm going to put it down and write it.
And I'll have it on record.
So I don't forget it.
Because who knows how much I forgot before I got to that point.
I'm just going to do that flashing light again so that I don't give people epileptic fits.
So The various things I want to go back to.
Oh, you want to go back to this transcript?
Yeah, go on.
Tell me.
I mean, OK, so here we were talking to this one guy.
This is when I was exploring it.
And it's I ask him, are you hearing your voices right now?
Because, yeah, they're telling me that they will never go away and that no medication will ever help.
And I ask him, how do you deal with these voices screaming at you all the time?
He says, I take meds and try to sleep.
I've cut down on the coffee.
I can't tire myself out when I drink coffee, so I stopped using it.
I have to completely wear myself out in order to go to sleep.
The voices continually mock and provoke me and find fault with me, my family, and all my friends.
That is one of their patterns.
The voices constantly mock, provoke both the patient And the family and all their friends.
So they don't like these guys having any contacts in the real world.
They want to isolate them so they have them all to themselves.
And I asked him, do you ever challenge your friends with what the voices tell you about them?
He said, no, if I did that, I wouldn't have any friends.
I learned that the hard way.
So here's his voices telling him, oh, this guy did that, or this guy said that.
And then when he checks it out, he loses his friends.
That's what they want.
What kinds of things do the voices tell you about your friends?
Well, they tell me not to trust them.
They tell me they're just using me to watch my back.
So here comes the paranoid and paranoid schizophrenia.
Don't trust anybody.
Don't trust your friends.
Don't trust your wife.
Don't trust your mother.
Don't trust anybody.
So here's this pulling in that you see, this isolating that you see, driven by the voices.
And this happens consistently with virtually all paranoid schizophrenic patients.
You start withdrawing from their friends, their family, and the world, driven by these voices.
I asked him, you hear these voices 24 hours a day.
He says, as long as I'm awake, I stay awake all night and they try to keep me all the time.
They try to keep me, keep at me all the time.
When I do sleep, I have crazy dreams and nightmares about my mother.
So that's another thing they do to keep these people from sleeping.
They insert these nightmares.
And the guy wakes up from his nightmares, and then the voices start in on him right away.
You're stupid.
You're crazy.
So they do everything they can to prevent sleep.
If they prevent sleep, then they're more suggestible because the guy's getting worn down.
So they're more likely to act on what these guys are saying.
They're like, oh, for God's sake, stop.
Stop.
Enough.
I'll do whatever you say.
Stop.
And then they wear him down, and then they do something.
They get in trouble.
They get thrown in prison.
I've heard a couple of times where they said to two patients, if you poke out your eye, we will go away and leave you alone forever.
So one patient poked out his eye and then when, you know, the voices didn't stop and I asked him, well, what did they say when you challenged him about that?
He said, they laughed at me.
They said, see, you're stupid and you're crazy.
You listened to us.
You were stupid enough to listen to us.
Now you poked out your eye.
And now you're permanently deformed, stupid idiot.
So I heard that from one other one, too.
So they tell him to do stuff like that.
And he says, as long as I'm awake, I stay awake all night.
They try to keep at me all the time.
When I do sleep, I have crazy dreams and nightmares about my mother.
She died long ago.
In my dreams, she's getting on me for stealing stuff and holding me down on the bed and hitting me.
These dreams are very vivid, as if it were really happening.
Like she was actually holding me down and beating me.
In my dream, it was like she hated me and was really trying to hurt me.
I said, did your mother hate you in real life?
She beat me a lot.
What did she beat you with?
She beat me with a belt when I was a kid.
My father used to beat me with his fists until they both finally gave up on me.
After that, they didn't beat me as bad.
They would just lock me in my room and nail the window shut.
I said, were you hearing the voices back then?
He said, yes, but they weren't as bad as they are now.
Eventually I started drinking a lot and tried to drink myself to sleep.
This is another thing that the voices do.
Stop taking those stupid, nasty medicines that are causing all these side effects and just go out and get yourself some whiskey, you know, and that will drown them out while they're, you know, the sedative effect of the alcohol will, It's a sedative hypnotic, so it sedates them.
But there's a rebound effect for every ounce of alcohol you drink.
There's a two-hour sedative effect and a 10-hour rebound effect where your nervous system is going like this.
So you see these chronic alcoholics who are drinking all this?
They're like this because they're rebounding.
They're recovering from the toxicity of the alcohol.
And chronic alcoholics, who are drinking a ton, if they stop drinking suddenly, they're going to something called alcohol psychosis or delirium tremens, which is they start hallucinating, they get psychotic, and they're shaking.
And the best treatment for that is to drink more alcohol.
So the voices want them to drink alcohol, cocaine, heroin, all these addictive drugs that have nasty rebound withdrawal effects, and they don't want them using marijuana.
They do not like them using marijuana because it doesn't have any of these bad rebound effects.
It sedates them without any negative addiction or withdrawal.
So they don't want them using it.
I found that interesting too.
And many of them would say, no, they don't like me using alcohol and marijuana.
They tell me not to use it.
They tell me to use these other things.
So that's another common thing.
They try to steer them toward these addictive drugs.
And things get worse.
So I asked him, I said, did things get worse when you stopped drinking alcohol?
He tried to stop.
He said, yeah, they got much worse.
I got to the point where I lost control of my drinking.
I went to several rehab centers, but they never helped.
As soon as I got out of the rehab centers, I started drinking again.
The only thing that seemed to shut the voices up was to drink myself unconscious.
So this is what the psychiatrists call self-medication.
Oh, you're self-medicating with alcohol?
No, don't do that.
Toxic psychiatric drugs instead.
So he said, none of the medications that psychiatry has given you has helped at all, I asked him.
Only when they start me on a new medication.
So the voices get less, but after a while, it gets to the point where they stop working.
So here's where I was talking about, the brain has its own balance, and it struggles to get back to that balance.
And when psychiatry throws in these hand grenades, You know, and just blows out of balance all the brain chemistry, which, you know, it's interesting that they don't know what is out of balance or how much it's out of balance, but they still insist that there's a chemical imbalance because they can sell drugs for that.
And the drug companies are making $3.7 billion a year selling these toxic anti-psychotic drugs to cure nothing, but just put a band-aid on this stuff.
So he says the only thing that has helped has helped me with Thoracine.
That's one of the first, I mean, that's pretty rough neuroleptic drug because it knocks me out.
And they had me on a ton of it.
So I asked him, do the voices never, they never have, so you never have any peace?
And I asked him, he said, no, not really.
He says, I said, that's like hell.
He said, yeah, it's terrible.
And I asked him, do you go to church?
He said, sometimes.
How do the voices react when you go to church?
Well, they ask me what I'm doing.
They tell me I'm going to hell.
So what am I doing in church?
They get much louder when I'm in church and try to block out what the preacher is saying.
So what the frick would a hallucination have care at all whether this guy goes to church or not?
And it isn't just this guy saying this, it's hundreds of schizophrenics who are saying the same thing.
This is another one of those patterns.
So it can't be a hallucination if it's running a pattern.
I said, do they do anything else while you're in church?
No, not really.
But they do go berserk when they find out I'm planning to go to church.
And they demand that I not go.
They tell me that the people in church aren't Christians and that they aren't serious.
They're just going to show off to others.
And they're frauds.
They say that the only reason they're in church is to get money out of people.
So why would a hallucination be doing this?
And why would a hallucination care?
And why would a hallucination be saying the same kind of things to hundreds of schizophrenics?
So I asked him, do they calm down at all if you stick it out and stay in church?
He said, yeah, they eventually calm down.
And I feel like I won the battle against them when I'm able to stay through an entire church service.
So this guy knows it's a battle.
He knows that it's going to require movement in a positive spiritual direction.
That's all he's got right now.
I said, why do they come down after church?
I asked him.
He said, I don't know.
I think it's because they lost.
They hate me going to church.
They hate anything that gives me some peace of mind, even if it's for an hour or so.
So going to church is one area where you're beating them back, I asked him.
How long do they stay quiet after church?
For about an hour.
They start telling me that everyone is out to get me again and to watch my back.
And I ask him, is there anything else you found that would help you beat the voices back?
So I'm constantly asking, what have you found that has helped?
What have you found that impacts these things?
I'm talking to them, unlike psychiatry that is saying, you're crazy as a bed bug.
You're destroyed for the rest of your life.
You're a deficient person.
Nothing's going to help except these medications.
Ignore the voices and take this crap and go away.
They don't ask them anything about the voices, because in their minds, they're hallucinations.
So they've shut that door.
They've shut it not only to the patient, they've shut it to researchers, because what researcher in his right mind is crazy enough to start studying hallucinations that are supposed to not be real?
I mean, who would do that?
Well, too right.
I was going to ask you, Jerry, since you've written about this stuff, and I'm going to put the details of your book on the website.
What's been the reaction from the psychiatric community to what you've been saying?
Well, you know what?
I haven't got any direct reaction from them, and I'm waiting for one.
I knew they would probably take my license if I had it.
Yeah, of course they would.
They'd probably go after it to try to discredit me, come up with some kind of bullshit saying, oh yeah, we took his license because he did this.
But I haven't heard a word from any of them.
And I'm waiting for it because this is the truth.
If they will look, they will see it.
They won't look.
Has there been any media reaction at all?
I mean, you know, if it hadn't been for that Sheep Farm podcast, I wouldn't have heard of you.
I mean, what you're saying is, if true, just mind-blowing.
And you would have thought that lots of people would be fascinated in writing about it, if only to dismiss it.
But I, you know... What I have got is a plethora of reaction from people who were schizophrenic, are schizophrenic, or have had these symptoms, coming back and saying stuff like, now I know what it is, now I can do something about it.
I've heard this.
If you go to my website, you'll see where you can order the book, but you'll also see a whole list of testimonials of people who've been helped with this information.
People who've read the book, and once they realize what's going on, have helped themselves.
So the truth will set you free.
Now, you're not going to get a media reaction for this because the drug companies are making a fortune selling these toxic drugs.
The psychiatrists are making a fortune, you know, pulling people in and re-prescribing these same expensive toxic drugs over and over and over again, they're making a fortune doing this.
They don't want this kind of information out.
They're gonna discredit it.
As you read in the, you know, what I read you from the Mayo Clinic, it is believed that these are a biological dysfunction of the brain.
It is believed that, but they have no proof.
They've never studied these voices as I have.
And if they were, they would see the same things I have, but they won't do it because they're hallucinations.
They're not real.
And any researcher who tries to get into any of these institutions I've worked in to do any kind of research, They're not going to get into the prison.
They're not going to get into a private hospital.
They're not going to get into a state hospital.
They're not going to get into any psychiatric hospital if they say they're researching the voices because they're going to be thrown out for one of the voices or hallucinations, which they've been taught to believe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and oh it's too dangerous we can't let you in because you might get hurt or you might upset a psychiatric patient or you don't know anything about clinical and you're not licensed they'll come up with any excuse in the world to let them get keep them from coming in and doing this research But I am hearing from psych nurses that are coming back and going stuff like, not from psychiatry, but the psych nurses saying, yeah, I always suspected this.
You know, I really suspected this and other nurses coming.
Yeah.
I think it's true because I've seen these same things.
Yeah.
So I'm getting feedback at that level.
So, okay, so we've got static shocks, we've got the 23rd Psalm.
Oh, by the way, I meant to say to you, I imagine that these creatures particularly feed, I bet they love war.
Oh yeah, that's a hard trial for them.
I was once friendly with a World War II bomber pilot.
It was a lovely man called David Heersey, and I said to him, he flew on about, I don't know, I mean, you know, dozens of missions.
He lost almost all his comrades.
And I said, how did you get through it?
And he said, Psalm 23.
He said, Psalm 23 got me through the missions.
And it is a very powerful piece of sort of talismanic, almost magical incantation, isn't it?
It's extraordinary.
Yes, it is.
And the voices hate it.
But I was wondering, obviously, In earlier ages, in the sort of the pre-psychiatric age, you know, the classic example being, they call us Legion for we are many, Jesus casting out.
You must have thought of that many times when you encountered these people talking about their voices.
What I found strange is that there's 23 places, more than 23 places in the Bible where it mentions Jesus casting new things out.
We're supposed to be a Christian society.
What happened to that?
Why are they ignoring that?
The medieval people knew these things existed.
They had all kinds of incantations for them.
These things existed back to the beginning of human civilization, you know, back in Egypt and all civilizations believed in this.
The Islamic civilization called them jinn.
They've been around for thousands of years.
But when science shows up 200 years ago and goes, oh, no, we can't measure it.
We can't see it.
We can't feel it.
We can't.
If we can't test it, if we can't measure it, then it doesn't exist.
It just doesn't exist.
But culturally, I was thinking we still do acknowledge it.
For example, in cartoons, there's often this scenario where you've got a devil and an angel on the shoulder.
And that's exactly what's happening.
That's exactly what's happening.
So we do know on some subconscious level that this thing is true.
Right.
And I think that's why psychiatry is kind of pushing back.
Because if it is this, then what the devil are they treating?
What are they doing?
They don't know what the cause of this is.
They admit that.
Yeah.
So what they're doing is just drugging these guys down.
They're tranquilizing with major tranquilizers.
And so, you know, I think they know that it's right on the verge of their their consciousness.
But then in society, you have stuff like, I don't know what got into me, or the devil made me do it.
Yeah, what was I thinking?
Things like that.
So people are aware at a lower level.
And this, this is why Dracula movies are so scary.
Because on a subconscious level, that's what's happening.
These things are parasites, and they are feeding off the energy Of all of us, it's not just the schizophrenics.
Every negative thought about yourself or anybody else comes from them.
Just like this guy in the transcript was saying, they tell me bad things about my friends and tell me not to trust them.
It's a constant bombardment of negative things about myself and other people.
So that's one of the other markers.
Every negative thought about yourself or somebody else is put into your mind by these entities.
Can I ask you a weird question?
It's a weird subject.
Do you think horses... I never get negative thoughts when I'm on a horse.
I was just wondering whether these things didn't like certain creatures.
Well, they don't have language.
So if you notice that these things are communicating with their victims.
Yeah.
So babies don't have language.
Yeah.
So they're innocent.
These things can't get you if you don't have a language.
And they attack people in their own language.
You won't find somebody Very rarely will you find a schizophrenic whose voices are talking to him in another language, because it's like pissing in the wind.
It doesn't do anything.
It doesn't work.
They have to be able to communicate with you.
They have to be able to influence your thought processes.
And a horse doesn't have any rational... No, but I was just wondering whether perhaps the presence of a horse sort of frightened them off or anything.
I don't know.
I mean... Well, I think animals give Schizophrenics, a sense of peace and, you know, because humans kind of abandon them.
They're afraid of them.
They think they're possessed.
They cause trouble to other humans.
The demons are constantly telling them to get away from other people.
Isolate yourself.
You can't trust them.
But a dog, you know, like a dog is just constantly there.
It's a companion, you know.
That's true.
Some of these guys badly treat animals too, but some of them don't.
So, there's got to be language.
We know that Christian iconography and texts frighten them off, but I imagine that, say you're a Muslim and you're faced with, you call them jinn, do Islamic texts, religious texts work as well?
Have you discovered any other holy texts that Yeah, yeah, they do.
The Islamics are more aware of these things than we are.
And, you know, I spoke to an Egyptian psychiatrist who contacted me, but he just couldn't break out.
I told him, this is what you watch for, you know, in your patients.
Ask him these questions.
This is what you watch for.
He talked a little bit about the jinn, but he never did follow through to look at these things, you know, and ask his patients about those things.
So you've heard no evidence of say, I don't know, what bits of the Quran might do or whatever?
Yeah, there were some Egyptian or Islamic prayers that they gave me.
Yeah.
But yeah, the effect is the same.
They don't like it.
They don't like anything that moves the person in a positive spiritual direction and they will resist that, be it Islam, be it Christianity, anything that moves the person in a positive, productive, spiritual path will be resisted by these entities.
What was I going to say?
These things, have you ever managed to sort of successfully cure somebody of paranoid schizophrenia?
I mean, have you ever got rid of the voices altogether?
Yes, many times.
And mostly with prisoners.
There was one guy where when we got rid of him, finally, you know, we just keep throwing these tactics at him.
They have to be motivated.
They have to understand that the voices aren't who they are, that these things are invaders.
Yeah, they're, they're parasites.
So there's, there's some truths that they have to understand before they begin the battle.
They have to understand that there is a enemy, there is an opponent, and that these things are not hallucinations as a psychiatric mafia has, has spit out with their propaganda.
And as the medical schools are teaching currently, and as the drug companies continue to back with their toxic medications, Yeah.
The truth is stranger than fiction.
So you've, but I mean, this ought to be a kind of a world.
I mean, it's ought to be around the world.
You know, if you are curing the incurable, that ought to be a big story.
No?
It ought to be.
But let me tell you what happened at the prison when they found out this was happening.
Okay.
So unlike all the other sites on the staff that I worked with, They didn't understand schizophrenics at all.
So it would be like, there's nothing we can do for them.
They were convinced there's nothing they could do for them.
Talk therapies didn't work.
You know, they were causing trouble.
The only thing you could do is either lock them up or drug them with medications and that's it.
So why waste your time with them?
So here I was studying the voices and experimenting with all these different ways to interfere with them.
And then these guys started completely recovering.
The voices were gone.
They started going off their medications, which wasn't supposed to happen according to psychiatry.
This is supposed to be a lifelong disease that never goes away.
And the only treatment is drugs.
So then all of a sudden, one of these guys appears, his voices are gone.
He tells the psychiatrist, I don't want any more medications.
I don't need them anymore.
The voices are gone.
Whatever Jerry was doing in there, we got rid of them and da da da da.
That kind of targeted me.
It was like, okay, now they're watching.
So as these guys continue to recover and go off to the meds, the chief psychologist, the same guy who made me stop the rubber band thing, got nervous about this.
And I told my supervisor, I said, Listen, I found a way to get rid of the voices.
Yeah.
And instead of being instead of being like, excited about that, like, oh, yeah, well, how do you do it?
He got all worried.
And he started pacing back and forth, like he was possessed with, you know, something and it bothered him.
You know, and I'm like, what's with that?
Why isn't he happy?
Why isn't he even asking why I can show him?
Why?
Why doesn't he?
Why is he acting so weird?
Why is he acting?
He acted like he was possessed.
He got all nervous.
He started pacing back and forth.
You know, the next thing I know, he's told the chief psychologist, the head, that I told him that and that there are patients who he has talked to who verify it.
But when, When they asked the patients who recovered what we were doing and how it was done, they wouldn't tell them anything.
They wouldn't, because they knew what they were doing.
They didn't tell them anything.
So here they, my supervisor runs into one who has been taking medications for years.
Now his voices are gone.
He's gone off him.
He's an intelligent guy.
And they have a valid MMPI on him.
Which is one of their, you know, gold standard tests for psychosis.
And it's valid.
And it showed at the time he entered prison, he had a very high psychotic rating and that he was schizophrenic.
I mean, a valid profile.
So this is their gold standard.
Right.
So what my supervisor asked him is, would you be willing to take another one?
Yeah.
And well, first he asked him, What were you and Jerry doing in there?
What were you talking about?
What were you doing?
And he said, What was he doing?
And this guy turns and he said, Well, he's helping us not like you asshole.
Oh, he could have gone all day without saying that.
So it just got deeper.
So he goes, Well, I hear your voices are gone.
Is that true?
Yeah, that's true.
And you're not taking your meds anymore, and the voices are still gone.
You go, yeah, they're gone.
I don't need those meds anymore.
They're gone.
You know, I have silence in there anymore.
I'm good.
I'm back to normal.
And he goes, well, would you be willing to take another MMPI?
And he goes, yeah, I'd be willing to take another one of your tests.
So he takes it.
They take it and they score it.
The psychotic range is down to nothing.
He's no longer considered psychotic by their own measurement.
Which got me in more trouble.
So he goes back and he goes, well, this is what happened.
He's doing something.
He's experimenting with something.
He's doing something in there and whatever he's doing ain't right because these guys aren't supposed to recover.
And I've talked to others who said the same thing.
So he drug me up in front of the frigging medical director for the entire complex, accusing me of experimenting with inmates.
And, you know, I'm like, I've never been under an investigation like that before.
But all these Christian guys all of a sudden run up, you know, these Christian supervisors and stuff who knew me and said, don't tell them anything.
You don't have to.
You know, answer their questions as briefly and as cursely as possible.
Don't give them any more information than you absolutely have to.
So I did.
I survived that inquisition.
The chief psychologist was furious, you know, because what are you doing with these guys?
Well, I'm just talking to him.
That's it.
I'm not.
I'm just talking to him.
I mean, is anyone complaining to you about anything?
No.
Well, what's the deal there?
I mean, what do you do with them?
You talk to them.
You know, what are the rest of the guys doing?
They're talking to him.
So what are you getting on me for talking to him for?
Yeah.
Well, what else are you doing in there?
Nothing.
I'm talking to him.
So they couldn't get anything from me.
They couldn't get anything from them.
And these guys kept recovering, you know, one after another.
So what they did is the chiefs, the head medical director, since he didn't have anything, he goes, well, if this is happening, this is good because it saves us on drugs.
These drugs are expensive.
If it's happening, that's great.
Then he turns to me and he goes, but otherwise, you listen to your supervisory, are you done?
Catch 22, you know?
Okay, we're saving you.
We're saving you on drugs for curing these people, if you're actually doing that.
But on the other hand, you listen to this friggin lunatic who's blocked you in every step of the way.
You know, otherwise you're done.
So what he does is he transfers me to a Spanish speaking unit where I can't communicate well with these people.
And it was there where they gave me, but by that time I had enough time to, I had enough time in to retire from the prison system.
Thank God, just barely.
So that just hit the ejection seat.
The real shame is that my favourite story from the Sheep Farm podcast was the story about the guy who gets directed to the weed place in Oregon.
Was this by The Shadow People or was this The Voices?
Which demons?
Voices.
This was voices.
This guy wasn't reporting shadow people.
And I think there's a connection between the shadow people and the voices only because that one guy where the crackling was said that it was the voices that was causing the crackling.
Right.
You know, but I don't I don't understand.
I mean, whatever they are, they're bad, you know, because they scare people.
And the patients who did report that they entered them, They felt bad.
You know, they felt depressed.
But I still don't know what the devil they are or what to do about them other than turn the light on.
I mean, do they have a go at you apart from telling you to kill your dog?
Do they?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
What was weird is that after a while, Especially in the emergency room, I got to feel when it wasn't so much of a problem until I started telling patients that these things were parasites.
Okay, once I did that, they went nuts.
They went friggin nuts.
And that's when I could feel I was being attacked.
You know, and it It was almost like, you know, on Star Trek, where the spaceship has this energetic field around it, and that it can ward off attacks for a while.
You know, and it's, and they, you know, here's Scotty at the bridge.
Oh, well, the shields are about to fail, man, we got to get out of here.
Well, it felt kind of like that.
Felt this, you know, when they were pissed off like that.
At me, I felt this all over my body.
It was like a cold, electrical feeling that there's nothing else like it.
You know, it was like electrical chill.
And I could tell how strong they were and how angry they were based on the intensity of this electrical chill.
So how did you ward them off?
Well, I would do a lot of praying.
You know, I would ask Archangel Michael for help.
And, you know, if I just hung in there long enough, one thing you can't do is show fear.
Because if they can scare you off, they've won.
This whole battle with them was a process of them trying to scare me off.
You know, the voices, these energetic attacks.
There was one time, more than one time, there was a couple of times where not only was this tingling thing happening, but I could no longer think.
I couldn't my thought processes, it was like somebody opened my brain and poured a quart of maple syrup in there.
I could not think I could not formulate any words.
I was like, you're completely mentally stunned.
It was like, what the hell just happened?
What is happening?
And I knew it was the voices doing this.
Yeah, but I have no idea how they did it.
I have no idea how they did this electrical They can feel too.
But for me, no longer.
Once I got that sense, I think they could no longer hide because I'd asked the patient, you know, especially in emergency room when I only had a brief period of time to work with them.
Are you hearing voices now?
They couldn't lie to me because I could feel the voices.
I couldn't see them.
I couldn't hear them, but I could feel their presence.
And what this evolved into is something very interesting.
Because once you go and they realize that you're about to tell the patient that they are parasites, then the voices react explosively.
And they'll react in a pattern of three.
They will tell the patient, first of all, not to listen, that I'm crazy and I'm stupid.
But by that time, usually I've got enough information to them that they realize, you know, they've been through a lot of doctors, a lot of psychiatrists and therapists, and they've never had anybody who understood their reality as I have.
So they weren't going anywhere because I'm the only one they could talk to who understood.
So they blew off the voices when they say, don't listen to him, he's crazy and he's stupid.
Then they'd say, get out of the room, leave the room, you know, escape from him, get away from him.
Yeah, if they didn't do that, they would then tell them to attack.
And it would go like clockwork.
I mean, it would just roll off like clockwork.
So what was so interesting that I would tell the patients that I knew, not all patients who came into the ER realized that these were separate entities, that they were intelligent, And that they were not, they were not their thoughts and they were not, but some of them had figured that out, but they didn't figure out and have any idea what to do about them.
They didn't like the medications, but if they got that far, I could add this extra bit of information to them, but I knew it was going to cause an explosion of some kind.
I didn't know how big.
Um, so what I would tell them ahead of time, once I figured that out and that I could help this guy by giving him that bit of information, But I was risking an explosion on their part, and I didn't know how big an explosion was.
I'd tell them ahead of time, I'd say, OK, are you hearing the voices right now?
And they'd say, well, no, I'm not hearing them now.
And I said, well, you will be in about four minutes.
And this is what they're going to say to you.
I'm going to give you some information.
They're going to tell you that I'm stupid, I'm crazy, and not to listen to anything I'm saying because I'm a dingbat.
Yeah.
But if you stay here and you listen, then they're going to tell you to get out of here.
They're going to tell you to escape the ER, get out of the office and run.
Don't try to get out of the ER because they're going to, you're not going to get out.
You're locked in and they're going to hold you here.
So you can leave the room if you want, but you can't escape.
So don't think about that before you do it.
So if you still stay here, they're going to tell you to attack me.
You know, the guy goes, Oh, I would never do that.
I know you wouldn't, but that's what they're going to tell you.
So what happened after that is, is that after many, many months of just blurting this out to the patient and watching this reaction, once the voices, the voices are intelligent, once they started to suspect that that's where I was going, they would kick up right away and start trying to drive the patient off.
So what I do is I would just withhold You know, I'd get as much information into them as I possibly could.
These are entities, they put these thoughts into your thought stream.
They're not who you are.
They have a very different intention than you.
All this stuff that wouldn't set them off what was true information about the voices, but wouldn't set off the kind of explosion that telling them that a parasitic would.
So I get all that information I could ahead of time, before I started leading into the fact that these things are parasites, because There was gonna be an explosion.
So once I was able to predict what the voices said, and then after I gave them that information, I'd say, well, did it happen?
They go, yeah.
They told me that even before you started telling me these things in some cases.
And I said, well, there you go.
And I could get rid of them myself for short periods of time, because you have to in order to shut them up.
And what's interesting is that what you vividly imagine happening to them actually happens in their world.
So when they were interfering so much that I couldn't talk to the patient, you know, I'd ask Archangel Michael to help me shut them up.
And then I vividly imagined duct tape being wrapped around their mouth so they couldn't talk.
And then I'd imprison them into this box of white light.
So they couldn't, once you put them in the box of white light, they couldn't attack the patient physically.
So they couldn't make them nervous.
They couldn't make them sweat.
The, you know, the frantic screaming, you know, would stop, but they could talk through that box.
I didn't know that.
So once I visualized the duct tape around the mouth, they shut up.
And the patient would say, yeah, they shut up.
There was one guy who said, well, they stopped talking, but now they're going, well, that's interesting.
Yeah.
So it's a whole new area of mental warfare.
Because what you vividly imagine happening in their world actually happens in their world.
This is so bizarre.
Psychiatry will never, you know, they need to shift gears and realize that this is the spiritual battle and that they don't know what the crap they're doing.
You can't treat a spiritual condition with physical toxic drugs.
And that's what they're doing.
They're poisoning these people.
They're destroying their brains.
They're just shutting them up.
They're dismissing them as lunatics, as madmen, as there's nothing that can be done for them.
You've got to take these toxic drugs for the rest of your life.
They're pushing all these false narratives.
I don't know what it's going to take to wake them up.
If they'd just look!
If they'd open their eyes and look and see these patterns that I'm talking about.
And these things run very specific patterns.
Here's a quick list of them.
They're constantly and persistently negative.
They're anti-religious.
What would hold them on a negative path like that?
Why aren't they random like all other hallucinations?
Why aren't they all over the place like other hallucinations?
Why are they just constantly, persistently, unswervingly negative?
What holds them to that pattern?
They're anti-religious.
They're constantly against any kind of religion.
Why would a hallucination be anti-religious?
Why would it care?
Why would it consistently run a pattern of being anti-religious?
They foster or create negative emotion.
So the thoughts that they are inserting into the minds of schizophrenics are constantly negative and designed to generate negative emotional energy.
They're energetically drained, their victims, like we've talked about.
They get louder after sunset, which is really strange, you know.
And older people that are more susceptible to damage from these psychiatric drugs, they call it sunsetter syndrome, where they start hearing voices and acting out crazy after sunset.
They foster self-destructive behavior.
So a lot of the schizophrenics I work with that we put into vocational schools would just all of a sudden just stop doing their classes or start disrupting classes.
And the voices would be telling them to do them.
They foster isolation of the patient from themselves, from friends, from family.
These are all repeatable patterns among hundreds of schizophrenics.
They're the same patterns that they were in Georgia at the state hospital there as they are in the psych hospitals 2,500 miles away here in Tucson.
They demand the attention of their victims.
They will not be ignored.
If you try to ignore them, they get louder.
They're constantly maneuvering for increased control over the victim.
You know, you do what we say.
We want you to do this.
They gaslight.
They set up a reality like Something like, oh, I lost my cell phone, and the voices will say, well, your mother took it, or you never had a cell phone, or...
You know, some complete lie.
They're consummate liars.
They lie about everything.
You can't trust them with anything.
And if you do trust them, and they seem to be positive, they can do that for a while.
But eventually, once they hook you, and they gain your trust, then they'll start turning on you.
The positive side seldom talks in voices.
They speak in feelings and intuition.
Very few people will hear positive voices.
I've met a handful who did, and they didn't have any negative voices, and the positive ones didn't turn on them.
But that is very rare.
They have complete access to your memory.
So they can enter your memory, and they can pull out stuff that you've done decades ago, that you've long forgotten about, and rub it in your face and say, remember when you did this to this guy?
Oh, look at what a terrible son of a bitch you are!
They know everything bad you've done.
They can go in your mind, they can pull that up and they can rub it in your face until you start generating the negative emotional energy you want.
And then with that, whatever you've done, then they start telling you, oh, you're no good, you're rotten, you're stupid.
They start piling it on, and it's all negative, to generate that negative emotional energy that they will eventually drain off.
They demand that the victim not tell others about them.
And that if you do, they hate that.
You know, maybe we can get George on later, who hears voices now.
He's the therapist I was telling you about.
Yeah.
You know, we can set up another appointment.
Let's do that.
We come on together.
I'm thinking, I'm thinking, Jerry, we've we've covered a lot of territory here.
And I imagine that 75 percent, 80, maybe more of my audience are going.
Wow.
This is I've got to hear more of this.
I mean, the other ones are just kind of thinking you're a nutcase.
We can arrange it where they can hear it from the horse's mouth.
And so I'd like that.
I'd also you've got to tell me the story about the drugs trip to Oregon, which is I just think the best anecdote ever.
I love it so much.
I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.
But look, Let's wrap this one up now.
It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.
There's all sorts of more questions I want to ask.
I'm going to leave the audience hungry for more, hungry for more flesh.
It's been great talking to you, and I'll put all the details about your book and your website.
It's been really great.
Let me show that thing for a second.
Here it is.
You can get it on our website at Lulu.
JerryMorzinski.com.
You can order it through there.
That's good.
And already that shimmery cover has lured me into wanting to buy a copy.
Geri, thank you.
And everyone who's enjoyed this podcast, please remember to go to Geri's website and buy his book, but also please support me on Patreon or Subscribestar.
I'm terrible about soliciting support and I need it and I appreciate it.
And after all, it will help me ward off the demons, I'm sure.
Thanks a lot, Jerry.
It's been great talking to you.
Have a good day in Arizona.
Okay, so let's save the fisherman marijuana thing for the next time.
Yeah, you save that story for the next time.
Okay, thanks a lot, Jerry.
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