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Feb. 20, 2021 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:29:35

David Kurten

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	I know I always say I'm really excited about this big special guest but I am.
	I love this man and I owe him a podcast.
	with me i love deli pod welcome to the deli pod with me james deli pod i know i always say i'm really excited about this big special guest but i am i love this man and i i own him a podcast i mean the number of months uh i've i've been saying to myself you must get david curtain on the podcast He's a great guy.
	David, one of the things I like about you is you're about the only politician or the only leader of any political party or whatever that I've seen at anti-lockdown demos.
	I mean, they should all be there.
	They should all be.
	Where is Nigel bloody Farage, for example?
	Well, this is what I think.
	I mean, it's astonishing that all this is going on in our country, that our civil liberties have been taken away and destroyed.
	And there's nobody there from politics apart from me.
	You know, you're sounding quite, quite fuzzy.
	Sorry.
	Okay, if I should I just move this up?
	I don't know if that's yeah, that's that better sounding.
	Sounding a bit better.
	Yeah, because particularly for the audio, people will just get, you know, always having a go at me.
	They're always whining about my sound and stuff.
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm not, I'm not a sound engineer.
	Okay.
	Tell me or rather tell us for those of those who don't have a clue who David Curtin is.
	You lead the Heritage Party?
	Yeah, that's right.
	It's a new party and we started setting it up in the summer, announced it in September and I set it up to be a socially conservative party because there just isn't one of those in the United Kingdom.
	You know, you've got the conservatives are supposed to be conservative but they're anything but and there's a lot of people who vote for Labour in the traditional heartlands who are actually very socially conservative but the Labour Party long ago abandon the laboring man.
	So that's why I set up the Heritage Party as a party that will defend and speak up for our heritage, our history, our culture, and so on, and free speech, and liberty, which has become increasingly important this year with all of the COVID situation.
	And I wouldn't say COVID itself, but the response to it from the government, which has been absolutely appalling.
	Yeah, you totally get that.
	And I respect you for that, because what we need, I think you'll probably agree, what we need now more than anything is a kind of political movement, which reacts to this.
	I I mean, we've got a situation at the moment where our two main political parties, are both dedicated to the destruction of the British economy.
	I mean, the Conservatives are bad, but if you're looking for opposition from Labour, Labour are saying, yeah, we should lock down even harder than we are.
	They're not saying, end the lockdown now.
	Yeah, that's absolutely right.
	I mean, you might expect this from Labour.
	I mean, I don't know if they would have done this, but the Conservatives have been absolutely shocking.
	But, you know, Labour are doing the same thing in Wales and the SNP are doing the same thing in Scotland.
	So, you know, it's all working together.
	So, you know, they would do exactly the same thing, whoever was in power.
	But, yeah, I mean, I first saw this happening in March and I thought, look, there's something wrong with this here, because Just on one day, the media narrative suddenly changed, and it was all, let's go to lockdown, if you don't agree with us, you're an idiot, you're selfish, you're a fool, whatever.
	You're a Cov-idiot.
	Yeah, that's the word that they made up, I heard that, it's one of these new smear words that they've made.
	Right back then I thought this is wrong and I initially it was because of the destruction of civil liberties that this was going to bring in.
	I mean if if this really were something that was a serious serious disease like the black death that killed a third of people in Europe, yeah I might say okay we need to have a few restrictions but this is clearly nothing like that at all.
	This is just like what happens in a normal season.
	I would contend, David, that even if this were the Black Death, and even if a third of the population were being killed, that still would be no argument for lockdowns.
	Because we know, for example, that the vaccine that they've come up with doesn't stop you catching or transmitting COVID.
	Because if it did, they wouldn't be saying, you've still got to socially isolate and you've still got to wear your masks, although those are ineffective too.
	But also we know, because there's at least 30 studies on the subject from around the world, telling us that lockdowns do not work.
	Some of the countries that have had the strictest lockdowns, for example, Peru, Argentina, have also had the highest death tolls.
	So there's no correlation between lockdowns and low mortality.
	At the other end, you've got Sweden, which didn't have a lockdown, but which has had mortality rates not dissimilar to those experienced in very lockdown-y countries.
	It seems that this virus does its own thing.
	And probably this is what happened with the Black Death as well, that it seemed to strike some people.
	I've just been reading my Bernard Cornwell.
	Um, it's set in 1346 where, um, when the black deaths first started going around Europe and it, it was all the way.
	It just sort of took some people and didn't take others.
	And the ones that survived, well, the, the, the, the plague became endemic in the population and not everyone died.
	They acquired immunity, which is what happens.
	And there we are.
	So, even if we were having the Black Death, or even if we're having the Spanish Flu, I still think lockdowns are wrong, and I hope you do as well.
	Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
	I mean, now it's really a moot point, because Black Death actually is a bacteria, and now we have antibiotics, which you didn't have in those days.
	So, you know, I mean, now we can... Oh, that's a good point!
	Yeah, we can treat it now.
	You had bubonic plague, and you had pneumonic plague, didn't you?
	You had the two different sorts, one which was spread by Breathing was spread by flea bites.
	Is that right?
	Sounds like you're more clued up than I am.
	I don't know too much about the pneumonic plague, but the bubonic plague, yeah, that's the one that's spread by flea bites, I think.
	So yeah, that can be killed with antibiotics now.
	So that's not an issue really anymore.
	So maybe a better example would be the Spanish flu, which did kill, what, at least 10 times as many people.
	Certainly as a proportion of the population than this pandemic has done.
	And we didn't close down the global economy then, did we?
	No, no, we didn't.
	Not at all.
	You know, it took its toll.
	And again, I think people with underlying health issues probably were affected more.
	You got another example of the Hong Kong flu in 1968, 1969, and everyone was just getting on with life and going out to these big festivals during the season.
	And nobody seemed to even think about it.
	You know, they're just people were getting on with things.
	And so you know, this is... Yeah, I'm thinking 68.
	Was that when the Stones released Paint It Black?
	I think it might have been.
	Wasn't Wasn't Altamont in 1968 as well, the one where the Hell's Angels beat a man to death at the race circuit?
	It was the sort of, it was the death knell of the peace and love 60s, wasn't it?
	But even so, life went on regardless.
	It did, it did.
	And so it should today as well.
	This is what you've been saying and I've been saying and a few other brave souls have like stuck their heads above the parapet Right at the beginning, you know, and you know, they'll always be honoured for that.
	And other people have joined in.
	But yeah, I think some people, as we've gone on, have seemed to have jumped on the bandwagon and seen, oh, there's maybe a lot of political capital in being anti-lockdown and so on.
	Whereas at the beginning, they kept their mouths absolutely quiet.
	But, you know... Will you say that, David?
	I would love it.
	I don't care.
	If, if people join our side who would have been awful at the wrong at the beginning, but I'm not sure I share your optimism.
	I don't think that people are joining us.
	I think on the contrary, you've got people who were skeptics, people like Alistair Hames, who I did a podcast with.
	He's, he's sort of done a pulled a Yui.
	Um, There's the think tankers from the Institute of Economic Affairs, the IAEA, a free market think tank run by alleged libertarians.
	And all these libertarians have suddenly become ardent enthusiasts of big government and the crushing of small businesses and the destruction of jobs through this weird authoritarianism.
	Tell me if you're finding people joining our camp now?
	I think the people in the Brexit party, for example, Richard Tice and so on, might have been for it at the beginning.
	I mean, certainly now talking about the Great Barrington Declaration came out in support of that, as I did as well.
	So there's one.
	You know, Julia Hartley Brewer has sort of come on, you know, through the summer, I think, and is now, you know, very much against the lockdown because of the effect it's having on schools and so on.
	These kind of things, you know, good on that side of things.
	But then you say there's others that have gone the other way, which is quite shocking as well.
	I think, you know, this year what's happened is that the government and the mainstream media have added another ingredient to the mix of their propaganda, which is now with the rollout of the vaccines is like they're saying vaccines are the way out of this.
	And the thing that that's really diabolically clever, I mean, it's wrong and it's wicked, but it's very clever, is that it's got people who are against the lockdown to kind of accept vaccines because, OK, well, let's all take a vaccine because that's our way out of it.
	And that's then stopped people from focusing against the lockdown, which is what we should be doing, because whether there's a vaccine or not, the lockdown is wrong.
	It's unnecessary.
	It's disproportionate.
	It's destructive.
	But people are now taken on that narrative and are thinking, OK, well, we'll just get everybody vaxxed up and then we can get out of it in April and May or July, which is exactly what the...
	um behavioral psychologists behind the government want everybody to um assimilate and uh some people have done that which is uh rather frightening i think and uh i'll tell you another thing i think sorry i'm talking a lot but another interesting thing i noticed yeah um with the you know
	back last month in january there was this whole fabricated argument between the uk and the eu and how wonderful britain is because we got the vaccine all All the mainstream media who for years and years and years were all completely against Brexit, Europhiles to the extreme, are now bashing the EU because aren't we wonderful?
	Let's all be patriotic and Support our government for getting all the vaccines into us.
	And that was a very, very interesting sub-narrative that's gone on to try to get, I think, patriotic people and Brexiteers to support the lockdown and the vaccine strategy, which the government seems to be pushing.
	So there's a couple of things, I think, that have actually, if you're not really looking into it and you're not keeping on your toes and watching the You know, the possible strategies of the behavioural psychologist, these could trap you into accepting the narratives.
	That is well observed and well remembered.
	I'd forgotten about that dirty little trick.
	In fact, one of my editors said, do you fancy doing a piece about about how, you know, thanks to Brexit, we've got access to these vaccines.
	And I said, Fuck off.
	I'm not, I'm not running, I'm not writing a government propaganda article, which is, which is actually all I'll be doing.
	You're absolutely right.
	It stank.
	In fact, I think the whole, the whole business, and you might agree with me, despite being a fellow ardent Brexiteer, that when I, when I see, when I see a conservative column, columnist, Exalting or just discussing Brexit generally, I reach for my shotgun because I know that what's going on here is a distraction technique.
	It's designed to pretend that we are living in the old normal still and that somehow Brexit remains our priority and that we've still got this government that we voted in to deliver Brexit and it's all okay.
	We're all free and government does its job.
	And I'm thinking, no, this Brexit is utterly meaningless, actually.
	You remember back during the days where we were all trying to get Brexit and make it happen, and there were remainer economists and suchlike telling us that we would lose X amount of our GDP if Brexit happened.
	And I can't remember what percentage of GDP they claim we lose, but this is the year when, in one quarter, GDP fell by something like 20%.
	We've had the worst economic collapse in 300 years, since the Great Freeze, when the Thames froze over.
	And I don't think it's over by any stretch.
	We're living on methadone at the moment.
	The furlough money.
	Borrowed money.
	It's either borrowed from what we have now or we're going to have to borrow it in the future to pay back the Bank of England, you know, that are creating the money for the government to borrow.
	So yeah, you're right.
	I mean, all these stories come out.
	In the so-called conservative mainstream media saying how wonderful Brexit is but then you know because oh we could do more business but there aren't any businesses doing much business so in particularly the shops and the the hospitality businesses and so on that have been absolutely decimated.
	I mean I think that there's still some manufacturing going on perhaps but You know not not as much as before i'm with the businesses that are doing really well at the massive global corporations in big tech and.
	Business is like amazon and so on which is like soaked up the market share from the small businesses which are getting decimated so actually.
	You know, you can ask in any kind of crisis like this, Cui Bono?
	I mean, who is benefiting?
	It is the big global corporations.
	So they're benefiting.
	So they've got no incentive to call for an end to lockdown because they're going to lose their market share back to the small and medium-sized businesses as soon as it ends, you know, providing that they still exist and can reopen, which, sadly, I think a lot of them won't.
	Yeah, I know.
	So, do you...
	You're a member of the London Assembly?
	Yes.
	Is that your day job?
	That's my day job.
	Well, I did go in there.
	Actually, I don't go in there anymore physically because we're not allowed in the building.
	Are you on full salary?
	Yes, I'm still on full salary.
	We didn't have a pay rise this year, so they didn't do that.
	Are you working for your money?
	I still am.
	So are the other assembly members and so on.
	Are you working for your money?
	I mean, do you have the sort of Zoom calls?
	Well, the committee meetings and mayor's question time is still going on, but they're done like this.
	They're done on Zoom or Microsoft Teams or something like that.
	So yeah, we still do.
	And there's still a lot of emails come in and reports that they write and so on.
	But yeah, but we can't go into the buildings.
	I mean, one of the great things about, you know, it is, Yeah, it's not a very pretty building, but it's in a nice location next to Tower Bridge.
	And so people can come and meet us and we can talk to business people and other people from around London who come to the building to talk about what's going on in London.
	But we can't do that at all now.
	Actually, let me get your perspective.
	Do you think it's fair to say that London is finished?
	I mean, I don't see how Two reasons.
	First of all, we seem to be entering a new world where the hospitality industry, the pubs and restaurants and stuff, are going to be so constrained by...
	Regulations that a lot of people find really off-putting, like to do with masks and one-way things and Perspex screens and so on.
	I wonder whether many of those restaurants and bars that have closed will recover, number one.
	And number two, you've got the issue of why would you go to London?
	Why would you commute to London to your overpriced or to, yeah, why would you commute to London or buy an overpriced property in London when you can work from home?
	How is London going to survive?
	Yeah, it's going to be very, very difficult.
	I mean, especially central London, which is in the past was a huge generator of economic activity and, you know, income and revenue for the country.
	I mean, the central zone and Canary Wharf are massively disproportionate.
	Part of the economy, I think it's even an eighth or something just in the central London zone because of the financial services industry.
	But a lot of that's just going to go because, yeah, as you say, the working patterns have entirely changed.
	And even if we do get back to a situation where All the restrictions are lifted.
	People have now got used to working at home.
	And so a lot of businesses who have got office space are actually cutting their office space because they save money and it's more efficient for them to have people go into the office maybe two or three days a week.
	But, you know, work at home from two or three days a week and then people don't have to commute in every day.
	So, I mean, that's something that might have happened anyway because of advances in technology.
	But instead of it happening gradually over 10 or 20 years, it's happened all at once.
	And I don't think that that's going to go back to normal.
	But because of that, you know, you say all the sort of Hospitality businesses, many of which rely on the financial services industry for customers.
	You know, you're going to work, then you go out and you have lunch or you have dinner, you go to the theatre after work.
	And they've got money to burn.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, a lot of them are gone already, you know, because we've been in this nearly a year.
	So, so many pubs and, you know, cafes and restaurants have already closed, you know, for good.
	And small shops have closed for good.
	They're not coming back.
	The ones which, you know, might come back might have some connection to a chain, you know, pub or a chain of, you know, hospitalities, a bigger parent company.
	I mean, they'll probably come back.
	But you know, as you say, no one wants to go to the theatre if you've got to wear a mask and then not sit next to anybody.
	Or no one wants to go to a pub if you have to stick a face visor on you and you can't go to the bar and you have to sit on your own.
	And all of these rules, I mean, it's just not nice!
	That's it!
	This is what I'm already detecting on social media chat groups, you know, Telegram and stuff.
	with all these restrictions and rules and people barking at you because you're you know you're not wearing a lanyard that says you've got an exemption or something you know it's uh ridiculous ridiculous this is this is what i'm already detecting on social media chat groups you know telegram and stuff people are saying right i'm going to make my own entertainment to the
	People are forming little kind of collectives of whatever you want to call them, of friends and their social life in future will be outside the commercial system.
	So people, the market will always find a way, individuals will always find a way to find a kind of Modus Vivendi regardless of how yeah, even even in the in this behind the Iron Curtain people found a way didn't they of grabbing what pleasures they could and I'm sure it'll it'll be the same in the new totalitarianism, but it's it seems to me that We are having a great reset of our economic system.
	Do you get any sense at all from the London Assembly that people are alive to this problem?
	You've got the awful Sadiq Khan.
	Do you have to see him every day?
	Unfortunately, not every day.
	I actually only get a very small amount of time every month
	to question him because Mare's question time is only once a month and we each get six minutes of time to question him so I don't get very much at all but I try to make the most of it and you know throw him some pertinent questions about what's going on and he never or very rarely gives a straight answer and then just diverts into you know trying to make me look silly or something else I mean I asked him
	About the vaccines the other day and which I'm concerned about because I'm Personally, I think they're experimental, they're rushed.
	You know, I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but I wouldn't take these COVID vaccines, some of which are experimental RNA vaccines, the Pfizer one and the Moderna one.
	So I said to him, you know... Are any of them not RNA?
	The AstraZeneca one is not.
	It's more like a traditional vaccine, but it's basically genetically modified chimp adenovirus, you know, which is grown in human kidney cells.
	So it's not something that I particularly want myself and not something I particularly think I need because, you know, for all of us, our own immune systems are more than able to cope with SARS-CoV-2.
	You know, the one who sadly die, you know, have an average age of 83 and most have underlying health conditions.
	So I think it's utterly ridiculous to try to get everybody vaccinated for something that the vast majority of people can overcome with their own immune systems.
	That's why we've got an immune system, and it can cope with mutations as well.
	I mean, the idea that is being put out at the moment that we'll need modifications of the vaccine for every mutation that happens, I mean, that's just ridiculous, you know, in my opinion.
	So I asked Sadiq Khan about this and I particularly asked him about, you know, how can you say they're safe when there hasn't been any long-term safety testing, particularly for pregnant women and women of childbearing age?
	And then he just basically started talking about Well, there's people who are dying and how do you think they feel?
	And he started going into the emotional, telling the heartbreaking stories, but not answering the question.
	I had to bring him back to the you, not answering the question and so on.
	This is how he deflects, you know, with the answers and doesn't give a straight answer, for example.
	But, you know, everybody can see that he's not giving a straight answer because he doesn't have an answer to something like that.
	And if he was going to give a straight answer, it would be completely against the narratives that Tory and Labour are pushing together almost in lockstep.
	David, did you start, were you in the Brexit party or were you in UKIP or any of those?
	Yeah, I was in UKIP.
	I was in UKIP back in the glory days of UKIP, you know, 2012 to 2016.
	So I was elected onto the London Assembly just before the referendum.
	That's when it was.
	It was just about five years ago now.
	And yeah, sadly, after the referendum, UKIP just went downhill over the next three years and it never became The party I'd hoped it would become, I always hoped it would become a properly socially conservative party, which we need.
	And I tried to steer it in that direction, but it never quite got there.
	What direction do you think it went in?
	Gosh, for two or three years there were a lot of people fighting each other about what it was going to be.
	And the thing is it's had so many leaders since Nigel Farage stepped down.
	I think it's now on its 10th leader.
	So with every leader they sort of tried to steer it in a slightly different direction.
	You remember Henry Bolton, for example, he was a leader and he got ridiculed for the sort of things that he did when he was a leader.
	He did?
	Unfortunately.
	But in a way, do you not think that the UKIP was destroyed by the Brexit Party?
	Because Farage knew that he was the crowd puller.
	And once he kind of dissociated himself from UKIP, that was it.
	It was game over.
	He used their pull to big up the Brexit party.
	Yeah, you're absolutely right.
	Yeah, that was a big factor, a massive factor in his decline because a lot of, yeah, he started up the Brexit party, which I think was needed.
	And it was a unique time that was never, never happened again.
	But it was everything was just right.
	You know, all the waves came together.
	They did.
	Nigel Farage to start the Brexit party.
	You know, Theresa May had betrayed Brexit.
	There were the European elections just coming up a few weeks afterwards.
	And everyone was just absolutely incensed at the Conservative Party.
	And so he started that up.
	They ran an amazing campaign.
	You've got to hand it to them.
	Back in April, May 2019.
	Really, really fantastic campaign.
	It was quite Trumpian, I thought.
	There were There were lots of rallies, well attended, with rousing speeches by Nigel, obviously, and by unlikely guests like Václav Klaus, for example, the former Czech president, who's an ardent libertarian and sort of anti-communist.
	I mean, I think he's one of the few Global politicians who really gets it because he's lived he's lived under under communist oppression So he knows whereof he speaks a lot of them a lot of them But just just they'll blow with the wind weren't they I think and I'm afraid to say I would include Nigel in in that category he's There's no question in the early days.
	He helped fight, you know put put some leaving the EU as an issue on the map and and and and He fought a good fight, but in the last 18 months, he's been almost my biggest disappointment.
	You saw him clapping like a demented seal for the NHS, you know, when we had to go through this kind of cultural revolution type compulsory display of worship for the dear leader of the NHS.
	or maybe i'm confusing with north korea but it's it felt pretty pretty totalitarian to me and then uh he really hasn't held the government to account he hasn't he hasn't called them on their lockdown policy or on their mask policy or any of this else why do you think that why do you think he's been such a wet fart yeah it's a mystery to me you know because back in the day we were we were in ukip together i mean i you know it was fantastic but but yeah
	since since then i you know it's um The Brexit party was a very strange phenomenon because it did so well in the European elections and then a few months later, six months later, in the general election that Boris Johnson won, he said he wasn't going to stand, he pulled out, almost crushed the party and handed power on a plate to the Conservatives.
	Yes, now what's your theory there?
	I mean, I was actually still standing for UKIP in those elections because after they pulled out, you know, I saw an opportunity to try to, you know, be a candidate myself.
	So I stood in, you know, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton where I'm from, but unfortunately didn't do very well because everyone just rallied to the Conservatives.
	I mean, you know, there's two theories and, you know, I don't know which is the correct one.
	You know, some people... Tell me the two theories.
	Some people think, you know, he did it for Brexit.
	He did it because, you know, Brexit was everything and all and this was the only way to get Brexit.
	Other people think he did a deal, you know, behind closed doors with the Conservatives and And everything he did handed power to them.
	And that was some kind of deal.
	I mean, I don't know one way or the other.
	I mean, because I don't... I'm not party to, you know, the conversations which were had.
	I was never... No, no.
	He keeps his cards close to his chest.
	See, my other problem... I think Farage is controlled opposition.
	I don't trust him at all.
	In the past, I found him very agreeable company.
	You know, he used to be a Thatcherite, I think.
	He used to be where I am.
	I wouldn't describe myself as a Thatcherite particularly now, but but but he was He believed in limited government personal responsibility free markets all the sort of the basic things that I think we should we on the what you might loosely call the right ought to believe in but I've had quite a few dealings with him over the years and and I don't trust him.
	I think he's control opposition.
	And I think worse than that, I think he is totally dog in the manger.
	He loves to destroy any insurgent parties that aren't under his control.
	And in a way, he's actually harming the system at the moment.
	Because what he's doing is by still sort of He's making out that he is a political alternative.
	He's attracting votes that might otherwise go towards people who would genuinely resist this tyranny.
	And he's not doing that.
	But what he's doing is he's helping to kill the chances of people like you and people like Lawrence Fox with his party.
	I mean, they've even got similar names, haven't they?
	The Brexit Party is now called the... Reform.
	Reform UK.
	Reform.
	And Lawrence Fox's party is called?
	Reclaim.
	Reclaim.
	Exactly.
	I mean, they're bloody similar, aren't they?
	Yeah, they are.
	It's like, if you wanted to name your party something to screw up Lawrence Fox, that would be the thing to do, wouldn't it?
	Yeah, it would.
	I mean, you know, I announced the Heritage Party publicly at the end of September, and then Lawrence Fox announced his reclaim a couple of days later.
	And then that's what I said earlier.
	About a month or a month and a half later, Nigel Farage, you know, who had deactivated the Brexit Party, which is why I did this, because they weren't doing anything.
	Suddenly, it says, oh, I'm going to bring the Brexit Party back to life and we're going to rename it reform and change politics for good, which is what they said.
	And, you know, I bought into that propaganda back in 2019, the whole change politics for good.
	We're here to stay.
	But they weren't here to stay.
	And then they deactivated.
	But then suddenly something viable comes along, you know.
	And then he activates the party again.
	Yeah, change politics for good and we're going to reform everything.
	We're anti-lockdown.
	When actually there's genuine grassroots anti-lockdown movements, you know.
	Well, I'm not a movement.
	I'm a political party, you know, with a full manifesto.
	And yeah, like you said, this is...
	There is controlled opposition around and it doesn't surprise me that the powers that be will deliberately try to split the vote of any challengers.
	I've seen this with the London elections.
	Last January, it was just over a year ago, I'm going to stand for the London Mayor and Assembly elections and there was no competition at all for, you know, seven or eight months and then suddenly there's Brian Rose and there's this other woman called Farrah London and then Richard Tice is thinking of standing for it as well and UKIP have stuck a candidate in called Peter Gammons I didn't even know Ukip was thinking of standing, but suddenly you got...
	Three or four candidates who are representing similar things to me, but they didn't come to say, oh, can we work together?
	They're just setting themselves up as opposition.
	And so I would, you know, some of them are probably genuine individuals, but some of them I wouldn't be surprised if they were controlled opposition funded by, you know, the Tory donors and so on, which are there to split the vote.
	Well, it's not that I really care, because I think... Is Sadiq Khan standing again?
	He is.
	Yeah, he's standing.
	So he's going to win?
	Because he's... We've got to try and stop it, you know.
	Of course we have.
	The only possibility is I've got to go for it, you know.
	Got to try to stop it.
	David, I would like nothing more than for you to be mayor, and I'd much prefer you over Ghastly Sean Bailey who's just you know another squishy conservative doesn't probably hasn't got a conservative bone in his body Or at least not a not a kind of not on the terms.
	I outlined earlier He's just going to be more of the more of the same, but I mean you haven't got a chance.
	No well I I'm positive, James.
	I'm being positive.
	I'm going for it, you know, I'm going for the win, but obviously it's, um, you know, you've got to be, understand the reality of the situation.
	One reason I wouldn't vote for you.
	You wouldn't?
	One reason I wouldn't vote for you is, no, the one reason I wouldn't vote for you is the sound is still, no, no, it's your sound is still really shit on your, on your, on that microphone.
	I mean, I know, I know you, It's important that you prepare for your future career as a telephone salesman.
	What are they called?
	The people who sit on the end of the telephone and answer your queries?
	Operators or something?
	Yeah.
	Well, whatever.
	I don't know.
	This is bad coming from me because I'm famous for my bad production quality, but I would say that your microphone is not doing its thing.
	Wow.
	Because actually, in real life, you've got quite a presence, and I think it's diminishing you slightly, because it's making you sound slightly reedy, which you're not.
	That's terrible, isn't it?
	I'm going to have to sort that out.
	I'm glad you told me.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Honestly, how much did that equipment cost?
	Those headphones?
	I think it cost about £25 or something like that.
	Yeah, £25 from Mr... I was about to say Mr. Byright, but Mr. Byright.
	Did they do men's clothes?
	I forget.
	about um 25 pounds or something like that yeah 25 pounds from mr mr by right but mr by right did they do do they do do men's clothes i forget do you remember mr by right i don't i don't the Is it like Poundland, is it?
	It was spelt, it was spelt Mr. and then B-Y-R-I-T-E.
	I don't know.
	There's a whole world that one is completely forgotten about.
	You know, the world before.
	I mean, Klaus Schwab is right in one respect.
	We are going to talk about the world before COVID and after COVID.
	And basically, before COVID is the entirety of Western civilization.
	And after COVID is just this new kind of totalitarian technocratic terror.
	I'm so bleak about things.
	I don't know about you.
	Do you find any cause for optimism anywhere?
	I see some things happening in Europe.
	You know, I see more resistance in some of the countries like the Netherlands and Austria.
	They're going out marching in the streets of Vienna every weekend with huge, huge demonstrations.
	I see pushback in Denmark.
	You know, there's a lot of people going out there marching, banging their pots and pans.
	Denmark still wants to bring in vaccine passports.
	No, no!
	Actually for freedom, thank goodness, you know, which is what we should be banging our pots for, you know, not the sort of, yeah, the clap for the NHS, dear oh dear.
	But yeah, you know, there's Florida, you've got Governor DeSantis who's like, yeah, we're not enforcing any of these rules, people are just going out.
	Yeah South Dakota you got really good governor there who's like it never never done any lockdowns on Mars so that there are small areas of the world where people are resisting but this country.
	I mean, what on earth has happened?
	I mean, there was some resistance back in the summer and, you know, I was part of it.
	You had these wonderful freedom rallies in Trafalgar Square.
	I spoke at one of them on the 19th of September.
	And these were the ones where the police came in with, like, squads of riot police.
	They came in hard.
	And they've been so brutal in London.
	It's been so shocking.
	But I think people are actually now genuinely terrified of, you know, either being attacked by a policeman or getting one of these draconian fines, which was 100 and then it was 200 and then...
	A thousand now is up to 10,000.
	You know, this really is totalitarian.
	The governance that we've got here from... I call it the Johnson regime because it is like a regime now.
	You know, it's not like a government at all.
	But, you know, I think when the weather gets a bit warmer, I hope that we'll start to see more resistance like this again in this country.
	But I just think that there's a growing Under the surface, you know, tension.
	I wouldn't call it a rage, but an opposition.
	You know, we're just a dissatisfaction.
	You know, I think this could bubble up, you know, and we might see people going to the streets again like they do, like they're doing in certain parts of Europe.
	Barcelona, for example, is interesting because I think there some of the police are now taking the side of the citizens.
	You know, some of the police have said, right, we're not going to enforce this.
	We're actually marching with the citizens for freedom, which is incredible.
	You really need to, you know, any kind of real resistance to this has got to get the police and the military On the side of the people.
	And it's crazy that I'm talking like this.
	Here I am, you know, I've always supported the police and the rule of law all my life.
	But honestly, these laws are repugnant.
	They are so repugnant.
	They're repugnant like Nazi laws and Bolshevik laws.
	They really are that level of tyranny and we need to speak out and resist.
	I don't think you're exaggerating.
	Have you noticed the difference?
	How do you explain the difference in policing between the way that the Light touch policing of the Extinction Rebellion rallies which lasted days at a time and involved the closing down of thoroughfares, of bridges and damage to property and all manner of things.
	We know that The cost in police overtime ran into millions.
	We know that the economic damage ran into the millions, and yet the police were very, very gentle with the demonstrators.
	Same with Black Lives Matter.
	The Black Lives Matter, they vandalized statues, they were threatening, they chased the police, and yet the police sort of shrugged their shoulders and didn't really fight back.
	But with all the lockdown rallies, Anti-lockdown.
	A, the police have turned up mob-handed.
	I mean, in numbers, out of all proportion to the number of demonstrators.
	And secondly, they've deployed the most aggressive elements in the police.
	I mean, some of them didn't even have English accents.
	It's almost as though, I've had rumours, I don't know whether you've heard these, that they've been sort of recruiting mercenaries from other countries, you know, thugs, to do this policing.
	I've heard rumors of that, but I haven't been able to back it up.
	I mean, that might be true, it might not be true, but I have seen them.
	You know, I've seen the TSG in London, the Territorial Support Group.
	They come in, they're the riot police and they, you know, they come in batons drawn and some of them hit people over the head, you know, and draw blood of peaceful people.
	I mean, I've been in situations.
	Most shocking was I was at a A small protest.
	It was in about, you know, the end of October in Parliament Square.
	And there was, you know, as many police as there were protesters.
	They were going in, picking off individual people.
	And some of them were women, you know, just women, young women, 20 guys picking off a woman, bundling her to the ground.
	You're kneeling on a bun, you know, causing incredible distress to someone who's just, you know, they're protesting, you know, for freedom, you know, again and again.
	And peacefully protesting as well.
	There's no violence there, was there?
	Exactly.
	There would be no violence at all if the police had just left people alone.
	I mean, they were not blocking the public highway.
	I mean, all of these things have either been on Parliament Square Or on Trafalgar Square, not in the roads, unlike Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion.
	But they've gone in, as you say, mob-handed, and it's been absolutely appalling.
	But, you know, so the Extinction Rebellion, it's what the state wants.
	I mean, they support the whole Green Agenda, Agenda 2030, sustainable development, let's all get rid of cars, because, you know, The powers that be and the World Economic Forum and so on.
	They don't like people having the independence of cars to drive around.
	So basically they're just useful idiots who are helping them to create a total control system where, you know, we'll be controlled because we give up our independence and You know, we just have a bicycle.
	Well, you're not going to get very far on a bicycle if you're in trouble, are you?
	So they're actually, I think these people, some of them are agitators, some of them are just silly, useful idiots, you know, and they don't realise, you know, what they're actually doing.
	Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you.
	Well, I mean, we're entering some very, very scary times.
	Do you think about it?
	You think only two years ago, if we if we'd been talking about this situation, we could we could barely have conceived of a scenario in which when you went on a protest in London, About anything, because, you know, we pride ourselves on our right to protest and on freedom of speech, that the police would go in hard if you were protesting peacefully.
	That wouldn't have happened before.
	I can't remember when it would have happened.
	No.
	This was different.
	Yeah, it was.
	We have got fascism.
	Yeah, fascism, Bolshevism, they're all of both of the left.
	I mean, there's not much difference between the two, to be honest.
	I mean, you think about it.
	But yeah, that's that's exactly what we have got.
	And I think the last five years in total have been absolutely crazy.
	I mean, after the referendum, you know, I think that was a big kickback to the global powers that be the one to, you know, destroy national sovereignty and people says, no, we want our national sovereignty.
	We're not having your plans.
	And, uh, we had four and a half years of them trying to overturn it.
	And eventually we got Brexit, but I would say, well, it's, it's only really a half Brexit.
	It's not really a proper Brexit in many areas, but you know, it's something, but it's not everything.
	Um, but, but as soon as, you know, well, even before that, you know, we've got this, um, destruction of our civil liberties and destruction of our economy and small businesses going on and I never would have imagined that this would happen in England.
	I grew up watching films about what happens the other side of the Iron Curtain.
	What was portrayed there is what's happening in England.
	I mean, I went down to the beach earlier today.
	First time I've been to the beach for months just to get some fresh air.
	But normally I'd go and sit in a cafe.
	Everything's closed.
	And so, you know, it's bleak as well as...
	You know a place where we don't have our liberties and freedoms as you know, they don't what they don't want you to associate with other people I mean, that's that's part of it, isn't it?
	That they don't want you going to pubs because then we could be having conversations like this with large groups of people Talking about this this ain't right and and and formulating plans that They don't want that to happen.
	Tell me, what's your background?
	Are you working class?
	I guess I would say maybe lower middle class, I don't know, working lower middle, something like that.
	I mean, I grew up in Sussex, but you know, it was on a council estate, but it was sort of with houses.
	I wasn't in a tower block or anything.
	So my mother, I was with a single mother and my grandparents on her side.
	Um, my father's Jamaican, but he left before I was born.
	So, uh, unfortunately I never met him.
	So, you know, I, I was brought up in, in England, um, entirely.
	So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm English British, you know, obviously with a mixed heritage as you, you might say, but, uh, yeah, so that's my background.
	People can't see how, how, how tall you are.
	I w I was quite struck by, by.
	You are quite a presence.
	I don't think I'd met you before that rally.
	Was it Hyde Park?
	That was one of the first ones.
	It was!
	I went to lots of those in the summer just to watch what was going on, on both sides.
	Uh, you got your collar felt by the police, didn't you?
	One of them.
	I almost got, I almost got arrested.
	Yeah.
	They suddenly threatened me with, but I mean, I was there as you know, as a, as a reporter, covering it coming apart from anything else.
	But tell me this is this, here's a, here's a thing that's been worrying me as well to do with it's clear to me.
	And I'm presuming to you too, that the conservative party is, Finished as a as a vessel for people who believe in limited government freedom free markets.
	It's it's become a it's become part of the globalist problem.
	It's a.
	They've become the facilitators of the globalist elite.
	They're completely on board with the green agenda.
	They don't seem very much interested in free markets or freedom of any kind.
	They have become totalitarians.
	You've got Labour under Keir Starmer, who's a member of the Trilateral Commission, which is behind The World Economic Forum behind the United Nations Agenda 2030.
	So they're very much on board with the Great Reset and everything.
	And we we've got Nigel Farage being useless, Richard Tice being fine.
	But I mean, you know, I don't think it's enough.
	We've got you.
	We've got Lawrence Fox.
	We're going to need some some coalition of rebels to overthrow this corrupt system.
	And I'm not really seeing that energy at the moment.
	And what's more, and this is the really thing that worry.
	I think that the government have been preparing for this for quite some time.
	And I tell you what, one of the things I've really disturbed me, you know, when you take the red pill and you realize that the blue pill world is the Construct of the evil machine creatures, you know that that the world is not as as it as it seems and one of my early red pill moments was watching the way Tommy Robinson was treated.
	I don't know.
	How do you know Tommy Robinson?
	You ever come across him?
	I met him very very briefly once, you know for about a couple of seconds.
	So I mean, I don't I wouldn't say I really know him as such.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I first became interested in Tommy Robinson because there was a very, very strong media narrative.
	Pursued with the same unanimity and rigorousness of the media's denial that Trump had his election stolen.
	I mean, you know, the entirety of our media refused to acknowledge that this was a stolen election by Joe Biden, that Trump got all the votes.
	Nowhere did you read that in even the conservative newspapers.
	And in the same way, nowhere, nowhere would you find anyone with a kind word to say about Tommy Robertson, he was a bit like the Emanuel Goldstein of politics, you know, in 1984, where Emanuel Goldstein is the target for the hate of, you know, the
	Everyone can demonstrate that this is this is this is the evil against which the regime is said, you know, he is the other in the same way that I saw Tommy Robinson being earmarked for that role.
	So I was quite curious to find out how much truth the wars and I interviewed him a few times and I thought yeah, he's a he's a working-class boy.
	He's you know, he likes to fight look handy with his fists, you know, he comes from a I grew up on a estate in Luton, but one of the things I noticed was this guy is not racist.
	He's got black friends.
	He's got Muslim friends because he's grown up in this world where you're not really bothered by people's skin color anymore or by their, you know, it's not like that.
	So that sort of brought me up short slightly.
	I thought, why are they demonizing this guy?
	I heard the background to why he became this political animal and it was to do with with, you know, the rape gangs and understandably.
	They weren't being dealt with by the police, you know, for years.
	So the local victim groups, i.e.
	the white working classes and the Sikhs, who were the main victims of these rape gangs, they started sort of forming street patrols or whatever.
	I mean, I forget the details, but they started out as a resistance to an injustice that the police were not correcting.
	So I followed I followed Tommy Robinson's career since, and I've been to some of the court cases he's been involved in.
	Some of them he wasn't as well prepared as he might be, but it was very clear to me that the English justice system was not fair in its treatment of Tommy Robinson.
	He'd been singled out for special treatment.
	In fact, I almost think that it would have quite suited them had he been killed in prison.
	I think they were that.
	Now, Um...
	Parallel with that, related to that rather, is this.
	You hear London, some of the London police chief bods, talking about the threat from the far right.
	The far right.
	Now, this thing called the far right, I'm very suspicious of, because I'm often called far right.
	I mean, what?
	For being a kind of classical liberal straight libertarian.
	You know, I'm not far right.
	But there is that has been this this campaign by the authorities to brand anyone who speaks out against the status quo from a kind of freedom ish perspective as far right.
	And I think that they are they are sort of they were preparing the ground.
	for shutting down people like you and me and Lawrence Fox and anyone who goes outside the Overton window of the main political parties.
	Have you got any thoughts on this?
	You're absolutely right because I mean when you look at terrorism I mean in this country and around the world The main threat from terrorism is Islamist terrorism.
	No question.
	I mean, it makes up, what, 85% or something of all terrorist attacks and all people who die from terrorist attacks.
	The remainder is about half far left and half what they might call far right, you know, and, you know, that sort of... Far left are far more active, I think.
	Yeah.
	I mean, a lot more violence, just on order of magnitude, probably, from the so-called far right.
	You get these little group of schools of people that seem to have a fondness for Nazi insignia or whatever.
	But they don't seem to do much.
	No, I mean, you look at...
	They don't seem to be a threat, put that in mind.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, occasionally there is something going on, but, you know, it's usually of the sort of order of magnitude of someone sticks a notice in the letterbox saying white lives matter or something and you get the screeching headlines.
	Oh, white supremacists with this hate message.
	It's just like, well, Black Lives Matter?
	White Lives Matter?
	Cool, they're both true.
	What's the problem?
	And then they pursue this narrative of, like, the far right is everywhere, it's endemic, we've got to root it out when it's not an issue at all.
	But yeah, the far left, as you say, you've got Antifa, you've got Black Lives Matter, you saw how violent they were in London last summer, particularly on the 6th or 7th of June when there was the protests in Whitehall where they were intimidating some of the police.
	They got on their knees and then afterwards there was a lot of trouble on the South Bank.
	Marauding gangs of Black Lives Matter, leftists going and attacking people and robbing people and so on.
	You know, this was happening.
	There's been terrible violence and this is nothing compared to what's going on in America.
	Even now, you know, even now they've got their guy as one.
	The election, you've still got riots going on in Portland and Other places around the United States.
	I mean, this is all far left.
	The media don't want anything to do with it.
	They just pretend like it's not happening.
	But you know, some someone would go around with a confederate flag and make a little bit of noise.
	And suddenly, oh, my goodness, the far right call the Marines is crazy.
	But this is a global strategy that is going on.
	And London, It's part of the network of cities which are called the Strong Cities Network.
	You might have heard of it.
	The Strong Cities Network, I mean, it's trying to implement policies outside of the democratic system and you've got also the What's the other one called?
	The Smart Cities Network is another network.
	Most of the same cities are in both networks.
	So the Strong Cities Network is mainly, ostensibly, to do with counter-terrorism.
	But the terrorism that they are countering is always far-right.
	So they're completely focused on far-right.
	But then, when it comes to Islamist terrorism, it's like, well, we need to tone down what we say about that because we need to make sure there's good social cohesion and diversity and make sure that everybody feels included.
	So we shouldn't talk about Islamist terrorism or terrorism from ethnic groups if they come from there.
	It's all far-right, far-right, far-right.
	Even if there isn't any far-right terrorism, the Strong Cities Network is there to actually try to find it and magnify it and create these narratives.
	You've got in this country London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester, Luton.
	It's interesting because that's where Tommy Robinson is from.
	Luton, small town.
	Well, I suppose it's a large town but it's, you know, not huge compared to other cities.
	So how come you've got seven or eight towns or cities in the UK and then in the Strong Cities Network and one of them is Luton?
	Which is smaller than Plymouth or Southampton or Norwich.
	They're not in it.
	It's very interesting.
	That's where they're focused on this activity to generate the idea that there's a far right that needs to be fought with the apparatus of the state.
	So yes, I think that's certainly going on.
	Are you finding any support for your party?
	I mean, what's your membership?
	Well, you know, we're a few hundred at the moment with members and volunteers, so we're very small.
	You know, we don't have a huge donor like some of the others.
	I mean, I think that the Brexit Party, which is now reform, I mean, I think they had 17 million pounds or something of donations and income in the last year.
	You know, obviously we haven't got anything like that, you know, because we are really grassroots at the moment.
	I mean, we are But it's it's really fantastic.
	You know, I'm enjoying leading a party.
	I never thought I would lead a political party, but here I am doing it.
	But it's people are joining, but everyone is so keen to get involved and start branches at the grassroots level.
	So I think the difference between us and some of the other things you've mentioned, reform, reclaim and so on, they're very centralised parties.
	I mean, the Brexit Party was very, very centralised.
	I mean, it was Nigel Farage, Richard Tice and then everyone else was a supporter.
	There weren't branches.
	Oh yeah, totally.
	They didn't want branches to form, people get to know each other and have any autonomy, whereas we do.
	You can look on Facebook, we've got Heritage Party Warwickshire, Nottinghamshire, North East, Surrey, Kent, London.
	Already we've got branches all over the country are setting up.
	You know, there's maybe one or two dozen people at the moment in each, but people are coming and joining and it's really lovely, lovely people who are joining, who genuinely care about the country.
	And, you know, what we found in the Heritage Party is that the vast majority of people Are people who've never been involved in politics before, but they think, well, this is just so crazy.
	We've got to get involved and we've got to do something.
	We've got to stand as candidates to try to overturn the madness, you know, get our civil liberties back, get our businesses open again, stop, you know, LGBT propaganda going to primary school kids and, you know, make sure we don't have vaccine passports and all of these kind of things that the Tories are bringing in with the help of Labour, you know, and people want to fight it.
	There's got to be a market for a party which is in the business of recapturing.
	I'm not sure it can ever quite be regained, but the old normal.
	The Britain that we all grew up in and love and the Britain of, I don't know, the 1958 Dunkirk movie, not the stupid glossy modern version.
	And I don't know, went the day well.
	And just the sort of growing up in the shadow of World War Two and the values of those people who stood up against Hitler and the sort of You know, when we used to say things like, it's a free country.
	Yeah.
	And, and, and took it for granted that it was a free country.
	Um, when people were generally tolerant, but not in that kind of weaponized tolerance way that, you know, whenever you, you, you had the Cameron regime talking about what are our British values and it was, we are tolerant.
	Yeah.
	Well, maybe we are, but that, that wasn't, that's not a defining characteristic where I think George Orwell probably He covered it better, didn't he, in his Lion and the Unicorn essay, when he talked about all the characteristics.
	We're suspicious of intellectuals and we're suspicious of demagogues, but we sort of quietly know we're the best without having to boast about it.
	All this stuff.
	Now, if somebody like you, or Laurence Fox, or you and Laurence Fox, or whoever, could capture that and bottle it and turn it into a political party, Then it would be great.
	But the problem is, is it not?
	I saw this at going to early UKIP meetings, for example, that if you I mean, I like your decentralized approach, but the danger of that is that you get people with very strong feelings about what your party's policy should be.
	I remember going to one UKIP meeting and being buzzed a hole by somebody who wanted to ban fox hunting.
	And I was thinking, well, I'm not really sure it's UKIP's business to be banning fox hunting.
	And I'm not sure that you should be in UKIP if that's what you think it is.
	We should be thinking about Bigger pictures than that about limited government and about protecting ourselves from arbitrary authority, which is what we're experiencing now.
	But I worry about both you and Lawrence because you're both really nice.
	Oh, thank you.
	Yeah, but you are nice.
	And it's not going to be enough.
	I mean, I'm not saying I want you to be Hitler, but Maybe I'd like you to have a bit more of Hitler's kind of... What am I saying here?
	Look and see how I question Sadiq Khan.
	You know I don't pull any punches.
	I ask him the questions that People want to ask.
	I've asked him about grooming gangs.
	I've asked him about vaccines.
	I asked him about the police bashing crowds with, you know, like sending the riot police in.
	I've stood up.
	Did you?
	And I bet he didn't answer that one at all.
	He didn't have an answer.
	He looked really, really uncomfortable.
	Every time he said, well, I don't really know.
	I'll have to ask somebody.
	I can write to you about it.
	Because really, I mean, back in September when this happened, There was an outcry, you know, about the behavior of the police and so I asked him about that.
	What was that?
	Have you got a lot of kind of fellow travellers in the London Assembly?
	No, I mean there's obviously Peter Whittle.
	Peter Whittle, he's good.
	Yeah because we were elected both for UKIP in 2016 so we still sit in the same group together.
	I mean when we both left we changed the name of the group to the Brexit Alliance because you know at the time we were still fighting for Brexit but you know we still called that because You know, we're nearly at the end of the term, so there's no point in changing our name now.
	But very few others.
	There's one or two of the conservatives who will come up and say quietly, I really love what you said.
	I agree with everything you said.
	But they wouldn't say it themselves publicly because they're so scared of being called.
	Islamophobic or homophobic, transphobic or xenophobic or whatever.
	So they won't say all of these things that they actually believe in, which is really kind of strange.
	They're so adherent to the party line, which is basically wishy-washy woke, I would say, in cultural terms.
	Um, oh yeah.
	So I was just, I was just waving at my wife to say that, that yes, a cup of tea would be welcome.
	I mean, we are, we are English after all.
	Um, I was, this is, this is quite, um, this is quite a tricksy topic.
	So, so the other day I had on the podcast, a guy called Josh.
	Did you see the video he made?
	No, no.
	On Twitter.
	He was running as he was talking.
	It was very moving and very persuasive and he was talking about how his business had been affected by the lockdown and it was a sort of cry for freedom and I thought I'll get him on the podcast and we had a very interesting conversation.
	I thought he was a charismatic character and then afterwards people people in my patreon pointed to his telegram and they say some of some of his stuff was like white nationalist it was it was there were there were anti-semitic stuff going on and i mean that was that was sort of that bothered me um obviously for for the obvious reasons i'm
	I mean, I'm actually I'm rather fond of Jews.
	I'm you know, I'm the other way.
	I'm massively fellow Semitic.
	Although I have to say I'm I've started to abandon my kind of Israel is the best place in the world attitude ever since I've seen how they've handled the coronavirus.
	I mean, they've really revealed themselves as
	Brutal authoritarians, you know like everything that the ever think that the palestine lot say accuse israel of being they've shown themselves to be in the in this their brutal vaccine enforcement, so but but What i'm what i'm wondering is There are If we are if we are to defeat this menace, and I don't know whether we're going to do it I mean, I I think
	You understand, I think, and I understand that what we're experiencing is a global coup by some very nasty, very powerful people in the form of the technocratic movement and their useful idiots or their agents, if you like, their enablers.
	In government.
	I mean, you know, I look at Boris Johnson.
	I look at Michael Gove.
	I look at Hancock and I do not see representatives of a conservative government.
	I do not see an autonomous individuals representing Britain.
	I see puppets of the next layer up of powerful, you know, powerful forces, the technocratic movement, the Trilateral Commission and so on.
	This problem is serious.
	It's going to destroy our economy.
	It's going to kill millions of jobs that are never going to come back.
	It's going to create this.
	People are going to be dependent on the state more than ever before.
	We probably have universal basic income.
	We might even have these compulsory mRNA vaccines, which could alter our DNA permanently.
	I mean, it could be really, really, really frightening.
	And I don't get the impression that people who might be sympathetic to our cause realise how bad the situation is and how desperately we need a united political movement.
	To fight back.
	I see you as part of that.
	I see Lawrence Fox as part of that But I also see these people like like Josh that although I feel uncomfortable with the idea of white Nationalism, you know what it's about skin color I do very much feel that there is there is a movement which ought to embrace nationalism itself and embrace The things that make us British, you know, regardless of our skin colour, regardless of our of our religion.
	I'm sure there are lots of Muslims who would be on board with this.
	I'm sure lots of loads of black people, obviously, because I think a lot of black people don't even think of themselves as, you know, It's true, isn't it?
	When I have a conversation with somebody who's black, who's not woke, I don't even see their skin color.
	They're a British person, aren't they?
	I mean, they're just, we're all the same.
	So how do we sort of capture people like Josh and stuff?
	Find a formula that enables them to realize it's not just about white nationalism, it's about something more than that.
	How do we do that?
	There's so many people doing really good things, but all sort of separate.
	I know that's the issue at the moment, isn't it?
	I think it's something that is, you know...
	More of an issue, sort of, you might say the traditional right, if you like, rather than left, although those terms don't have so much meaning anymore.
	Because we're all competitive and entrepreneurial and we're all doing different things.
	You know, I'm starting the Heritage Party, your guy Josh is running across the country, there's people starting the newspapers and so on, publications to fight.
	For freedom.
	There's all these different freedom groups doing, you know, there's about seven, five or six different groups who organize rallies, you know, with different characters at the head of them.
	So we're all doing something, but we're all sort of like, you know, Making our own paths, if you like.
	It's like a loose connection between us all.
	But you know, what I'm trying to do with the Heritage Party is something specifically in politics.
	And I know people have said to me in other things, why don't you get involved in this?
	We're doing a legal case.
	And that's fantastic.
	But I don't think that's my role at the moment to get involved in legal cases.
	And other people say, why don't you come and do this activism with us?
	And that's great, but it's not my job.
	My time needs to go into what we're doing here in politics.
	And so we do need action across the spectrum.
	I think we need activism on the streets so that people again see large numbers of people.
	We've got to have that.
	Yeah, we've got to have that.
	We've got to have people taking legal action, judicial reviews.
	They haven't worked so far, but other cases, for example, against discrimination, if certain businesses or sectors are not going to give you services because you don't have a vaccine, there's a huge need for people to start preparing and bringing these legal cases.
	So that people are not discriminated against if they don't wear a mask or they don't have an injection of mRNA.
	But we need the politics as well.
	So that's what I'm trying to do is to start a political party that will grow.
	I hope we'll get so much support that, you know, we'll get 10 million people voting for us.
	I mean, that's my ultimate aim.
	Well, I like your name.
	Heritage embraces a lot of things and it's a nice... I mean, it's quintessentially English, isn't it?
	Or British.
	We've got more heritage than almost anybody, haven't we?
	We've got heritage coming out of our ears.
	But heritage embraces not just architecture and art and culture.
	It embraces Morris dancing and fox hunting and football matches and all the different bog snorkeling, all the different things that people might be interested in, which are, I think, slowly going to be erased.
	You know, I was reading... I'm reading a book at the moment by Brough Scott.
	You're probably not into horses.
	It's about it's called Churchill at the saddle.
	And it's a history of Churchill seen through his riding.
	And I was reading and Churchill's mother was a racehorse breeder and had a When Churchill was at Harrow, his parents had this fantastic racehorse which kept winning loads and loads of races.
	And you can imagine what this must have done for young Winston's ego.
	He must have been a total hero to his schoolmates.
	And you probably had boys, members of staff, I don't know, greens keepers, whatever they're called, or all sorts of making money out of putting bets on the Churchill horse.
	Yeah.
	Anyway, in the in the.
	Brough Scott mentions the the five English classic races, you know, they are.
	Oh, goodness me, Epsom.
	I'm going to test you because you were quite knowledgeable about the black death.
	I'm not, I'm not so knowledgeable about sport.
	I don't know.
	Gosh, classic races.
	Are you talking about horse races?
	Five, they're called the five classics.
	And it's not, it's not a kind of, you know, it's not some... The Grand National, I imagine?
	No.
	No?
	No.
	The Derby?
	They're the, yeah, that's one of them.
	Okay, um... You'll be here, Edge.
	You'll never get it.
	I have to give up on this because I have no knowledge of this, unfortunately.
	So, there's the 1000 Guineas, the 2000 Guineas, there's the Oaks, there's the Derby, and the St.
	Leger.
	Now, the only reason... the reason I mention that is that there would have been a time, probably up until, I would say, the 1980s, when most people would have known Because they're part of our culture.
	Yeah.
	And can you imagine now how many people would know, even though racing, I mean, horse racing, it's in our blood.
	It's it's everyone.
	Everyone loves a flutter on the Grand Nationals, don't they?
	Well, they did.
	But Are they going to, is that going to happen in the future when nobody's allowed to go to the Grand National?
	I mean, you need the excitement of the horse race, don't you?
	That's part of the, I'm sure it spurs the jockeys on, it excites the horses.
	Remove that and what have you got?
	You've got this sort of sterile site of horses running around a track.
	Yeah, you'd be there thinking, what am I doing?
	It's going to be so bizarre, isn't it?
	I suppose what I'm saying is that there is so much of our culture that is not about race.
	It's just ours.
	It belongs to all of us.
	If we can somehow find a formula, find a party that pursues those rigorously and doesn't get distracted by loons who want to ban fox hunting, say, or whatever stupid idea they've got, which is antithetical to our liberties, then we might be on to something.
	But I'm not seeing it... The other point I wanted to make was that I don't think we can...
	This thing that people started doing when they looked at Josh's telegram feed and saying, oh, I'm not sure you should be associating with him.
	I remember going to one of the early rallies for the lockdown.
	And I regret saying this, but I, but I, I did say this.
	Somebody said to me, why don't you speak up at one of these rallies?
	Will you come and speak up?
	And I said, rather snobbishly, I said, the problem at the moment is that, that the people here, they, they, they kind of, they're all sort of slightly weird.
	They're all five anti 5g and they're all anti-vaxxers and they're all, you know, they're all David Ike fans.
	Shame on me for saying that, because these were the people out there from the start who recognised what was going on.
	I don't think we can reach for the smelling salts every time somebody has a view which might be suspect.
	We need to bring them on side to channel their energy, not to encourage antisemitism or anything else, but to recognise that there's going to be a very disparate bunch of people fighting this fight and we can't afford to lose allies just because we're getting sort of squeamish about this or that.
	We need to unite and find a kind of compelling vision.
	Well, I think that's what's really fantastic about some of the rallies that have happened.
	I need a cup of tea.
	I need a cup of tea as well.
	They will!
	Covid-sceptic dies of coronavirus in podcast.
	Oh, do you know, the other day there was a very sad story of a man who died in Shropshire, and he was a, you know, so-called COVID denier, as they said, you know, he was just a normal guy, but he'd liked one of my tweets, and there was a massive story in the Standard about this, you know, COVID denier, and he retweeted me, and he retweeted something from Julia Hartley Brewer, and he liked one of my tweets, and suddenly it's my fault.
	Sounds like a fascist to me, David.
	He sounds like Far-Right.
	He's a lovely artist, apparently.
	But anyway, that's the sort of stories that get made up.
	I'm responsible because I don't agree with the Lockdown and mask wearing.
	So if anybody dies because they don't wear a mask, which you don't die, my words are wrong there, you know, you don't die because you don't wear a mask.
	But if someone dies of COVID and then they, um, it's found that they were against mask wearing, it's like, oh, well, they're a COVID denier and they died.
	You know, it's, uh, they make, they make horrible sort of political capital out of these things.
	I know, but, um, What were we talking about before?
	I was going to ask you, I think I've got to eat my toast now.
	Otherwise I might get, you know, I might starve.
	People have got to see what a lovely guy you are.
	But can I say, so I wanted to ask you, I mean, apart from your dangerously nationalistic iconography in the background there, I see you've got a union flag, which is, which is pretty much the kind of thing.
	It's the kind of thing Hitler would do.
	You got to admit it.
	It's like you are, you are literally Hitler.
	But tell me, how do you get, how do you get treated?
	I mean, do they, do they call you far right?
	I mean, I get an awful lot of abuse on social media.
	I've been called all kinds of things, you know.
	You know, Uncle Tom, the usual things, Coconut, all this kind of stuff.
	People who don't know my colour, I was in a really interesting debate on a television channel.
	It was about something to do with BLM.
	And, you know, I was just saying that, you know, we should be proud of Churchill.
	And the other person, they couldn't see me because we were like this, but we couldn't see each other.
	And they said, from a white man, you're a white man, you would say that.
	So I get this idea because I have a certain Opinions of people who don't see me.
	They assume that I'm white because of my opinions or something, which is, you know, it's just sort of unconscious bias, if you like, to sort of put that back on them.
	But yeah, no, I used to get called far right more.
	than I do now.
	Maybe back in the days when UKIP was still going on, I was still in UKIP and Brexit was still going on, but I don't now.
	People now sort of, now they call me a Covid idiot and an anti-vaxxer and also I'm a granny killer because I'm responsible for the deaths of people who die from Covid because I say I don't think that masks are necessary, and so on.
	And I don't think that vaccines are necessary.
	So the kind of abuse and the lexicon of smearage has changed.
	It's quite a good phrase, isn't it?
	A lexicon of smearage.
	I bet you're proud of that.
	Yeah, exactly.
	That's worthy of Shakespeare.
	Well done.
	The lexicon of smearage.
	Yeah, that's good.
	That's good.
	No, it's interesting.
	That you do get exposed to this lexicon of smearage because that's how they how they roll, isn't it?
	It's it's about it's not really about engaging with your views.
	It's about closing you down.
	It's about other as they would say if we were on a lefty University course, they would say they were othering you and now using whatever you know, If they didn't know you were mixed race, they accuse you of being a white person, and when that particular insult fails, they'll just move on to whatever's handy.
	They used to call me a homophobe all the time, or a transphobe, because I don't agree with Stonewall's policies.
	It's political, I don't agree with those things.
	So that's a very common smear that gets thrown at me like all the time.
	I mean, I think I keep pink and using business because they do a story on me every other month because it's something I've said.
	But I'm a homophobe.
	I'm a transphobe.
	And now there's a queer phobe.
	Or that's another one that's just just, you know, been invented.
	but But I think people have now, like, they've moved on from that because they know, oh yeah, it's Curtin, he says that, it's just what he does.
	But yeah, it's great.
	You've given me a fantastic list of epithets.
	When I describe who you are, for the blurb, I can say David Curtin, Transphobe, homophobe, coconut, far-right, fascist, Covid-denying granny killer.
	It'd be great.
	See, I'm not such a nice person after all, am I?
	Yeah, you are.
	You are, though.
	You're really nice.
	That's the thing.
	You exude niceness.
	It's like you're a big cuddly teddy bear.
	And that could be your undoing, David.
	I'm sorry.
	Well, you know, I've survived five years so far, so I hope I'll get another five.
	In politics.
	More than that.
	More than that.
	We need you.
	David, thank you for being on the podcast.
	It's been an absolute pleasure.
	And if you've enjoyed this podcast, please don't forget to support me on Patreon and or Subscribestar.
	You can find my podcast at Delingpoleworld.com.
	I think there's an archive there and I'm on... Well, you know where to find me, yeah.
	Anyway, again, thank you, David.
	Great to have you on and good luck.
	Thank you.
	It's been really great.
	I've enjoyed it.
	Thanks, James.
	Good.
	Thanks a lot.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye.

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