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Jan. 31, 2021 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole
01:11:43
Dr Raymond Perrin
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Welcome to the DellingPod with me James DellingPod.
And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but I really am because this week's special guest is very special to me.
His name is Ray Perrin, Dr. Ray Perrin.
And Ray is one of the people who has genuinely, genuinely improved my life.
A lot of you will know that I suffered from Lyme disease for many years, and Ray and his Perrin technique, you've really helped sort me out, Ray.
I mean, thank you.
Thank you.
If I could illustrate or express the difference between when I first came to see you And now, my life has... I don't even think about Lyme disease anymore.
It's not an issue in my life.
And I know Lyme disease is not your speciality, but nevertheless, it's a by-product of what you do, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's wonderful to see you, James, and to hear you.
You know, I always say to my patients when they improve, I always say, I wish we had a video of you when you first came, And you're here now.
But we don't do that in clinic, obviously.
Ethics dictates we don't video all our patients.
But it'll be great to be able to see before and afterwards.
And, you know, I remember when you first came and your friends and the people who watch your blog will probably know what you were like when you had the illness quite badly.
And looking at it now, you look in a much better state of health.
You look bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, as we call it.
Yeah.
The only thing I have to go on about how bad it was, I did make a health diary at one point.
I mean, I'm very, very poor at keeping diaries.
I wish I could because the last year would have been brilliant.
But I did I did keep a health diary and there were so many symptoms because as you know the Lyme disease is known as the great imitator and it imitates all number of other diseases which is why it's so hard to diagnose and why people don't know they've got it for a long time.
Well, they go to their GP and the GP probably writes in his notes, hypochondriac or worried well, because he can't get to the bottom of these myriad complaints.
One of the dominant ones, I think this is the characteristic problem of people with Lyme disease, is brain fog.
And I think you almost need to have experienced brain fog to be able to know what it is.
But it's like your brain is just like made of marshmallows or sludge and everything slows down.
I don't get that anymore.
I have one of my patients calls it a foggy brain, which is a combination of foggy and something else.
And I think that's the best way.
Yeah, best way.
I mean, it really is.
I mean, brain fog People will probably wonder what, I'm an osteopath and a neuroscientist.
I'm not an immunologist and I'm not a specialist in infectious diseases.
So what am I treating Lyme disease and how do I do it?
Good question.
I suppose that's, that's what probably you're going to ask.
Well, yeah, but you've asked it for me, Ray.
And actually that is a very good, you know, how come?
Yeah, that's very true because To put you in context, your treatment doesn't just work for Lyme disease, it works for chronic fatigue syndrome or ME and other stuff too.
Was it Crohn's disease or any of those?
What are the other ones it works for?
Well, there's one of the things that I've treated which I'm hesitant to advertise in any way because I'm not saying I don't want to get involved in it, but I'm so involved with ME and it's such a difficult, but if you catch, I believe if you catch Alzheimer's very early on, we can probably help that as well.
But we need to do research before we can make those claims.
But I have treated a patient very early on with Alzheimer's who kept to a reasonable level of health for about four years.
He wasn't going, in fact every month he came to me for treatment and he said he's had the best month yet.
It was only when he fell and injured his head that his symptoms went right downhill.
But for four years we kept him going and I have treated a few others with Alzheimer's as well.
and had some success in helping reduce some of the symptoms.
So basically the pairing technique is a treatment for the neuro-lymphatic system.
That's my baby.
And I discovered this 32 years ago now.
It's a long time ago.
I discovered I could help Chronic fatigue, ME.
In those days they used to call it yuppie flu.
And one of the main symptoms of ME is the brain fog.
So where does Lyme disease fit into this?
Basically, I believe that there are many conditions and Alzheimer's is one of them.
I think there's research done to show Krugfeld-Jakob's disease is also one of them.
My work is on ME and chronic fatigue syndrome, and also fibromyalgia, which is a subset of the same condition.
And these are all, and Lyme disease, are all what I believe are neuro-lymphatic disorders.
If you look on the website, neuro-lymphatic disorders, you wouldn't have much about it, except my work and a few others, because this is a new section of disease that has now just been recognised as a real problem.
Because what I said years ago now, that ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, was caused by a problem in the drainage of the brain of toxins into the lymphatics.
And when I said that, and this was quite a few years ago now, it was completely against medical thinking.
Completely.
In those days, when I first came up with this, the idea of a connection between the lymph and the brain was totally poo-pooed by the medical and scientific world, because you had to understand what the lymphatic system was there for in the body.
According to the science, and this is accepted science, the lymphatics are mainly there to drain away large poisons, large toxins.
And the small toxins can all go away through the blood, the capillaries.
And there's a very easy way I'd describe it.
And I remember when you first came, I went through all this with you.
But basically the capillaries have a wall that's like a mesh filter, and that allows small molecules into the blood to go away.
So any small toxins, small molecules will drain away through the blood.
The lymphatics, their capillaries, have got walls like the gills of a fish, opening and closing, and they allow larger molecules in, and that's the purpose of the lymphatics really, to drain away the larger molecules.
In the brain we have a barrier called the blood-brain barrier, and that stops any large molecules entering the brain.
And therefore we don't need a lymphatic system.
And that's why in all the books and all the textbooks I learned when I was in college and beyond that, all the medicine accepted the fact there was no lymphatic drainage of the brain because we don't need one.
Because large molecules can't get into the brain in the first place.
And this is so wrong on so many levels.
But a few scientists like myself thought, well, wait a second.
What about hormones?
Hormones are huge molecules.
And hormones are controlled by the brain, by an organ in the brain called the hypothalamus.
That, basically, is the mother of the hormonal system.
And, basically, hormones enter the brain, and the hypothalamus in the brain measures The hormones and then it sends messages back.
The example I always give is insulin.
Insulin is produced in the pancreas in your tummy.
This goes into the brain and then your hypothalamus measures this and sends messages back to the pancreas to produce more or less insulin.
Insulin is a huge molecule.
Massive!
The molecules that get through the blood-brain barrier, because it's a barrier of cells with tight junctions, The only molecules, very small molecules, like water.
Water is made up of 18 Daltons.
Dalton is a measurement of a molecule, named after John Dalton from Manchester.
I just have to plug the Manchester flag.
Yep, you're a Manchegian, you've got that, yep.
And anyway, so 18 Daltons, very small molecule, water can get through the blood-brain barrier.
But look at, insulin is 5808 Daltons.
It's walloping.
How on earth can it get through the blood-brain barrier?
Surely it can't, but it does, because the hypothalamus measures that.
We know it's got receptors on the hypothalamus that measures the hormone insulin, and all the other hormones as well.
So how does this work?
And we now know there are seven areas in the brain with gaps in the blood-brain barrier.
These seven areas are known as circumventricular regions, and these are areas in the brain where there's no blood-brain barrier to stop any large molecules getting in, to allow the hormones and other large molecules in, so toxins can get in.
And then we have a problem.
If toxins can get in from day one, as soon as you're born, or before that even, What happens, how does the body drain away those large toxins?
Because the blood can't cope with the large toxins, it needs the lymphatics.
And that's why a few scientists like myself for years and years and years have been going on about, standing on the rooftops and shouting, yes there is a drainage system, there has to be.
And it's through Some areas of the brain and down the spine, and one of the main areas is the bone above the nose, called the ethmoid bone, where you've got a plate with little perforations that allow olfactory nerves, nerves that control smell, to go through into the lymphatic system in the nose.
So the drainage goes through these little passages in these spaces, and these spaces are around the blood vessels that supply the nerves.
And it's not just in the olfactory pathway, it's in the optic pathway, the auditory pathways, and also trigeminals within the cheeks and down the spine.
And if these pathways don't work properly because there's damage from physical damage A person could be born like that.
It can run in families.
And this leads to a problem of drainage of toxins from the brain into the lymphatic system.
And we can see that when you have a virus, some people have a severe virus and end up with post-viral fatigue, chronic fatigue, ME.
And this is what we're now seeing with COVID-19.
We're seeing this post-COVID syndrome, this long COVID, where people are getting coronavirus-19 and that leads to this very ongoing fatigue state with brain fog as one of the main symptoms as well.
And if you think about the pathway to COVID, what do the people with COVID first suffer?
Usually anosmia, loss of smell.
So it's through this pathway, this drainage system that we now know exists.
And by the way, this drainage system was only proven to exist in humans in 2017.
So it's only four years ago, they finally did scans on humans showing that there's a lymphatic drainage system of the brain.
So now they're looking at what conditions can be caused by a dysfunctional disturbance of this drainage.
And I've been working since 1989 on ME.
And others have been looking at Alzheimer's and other conditions.
And post-COVID syndrome, this long COVID, is another neurolymphatic disorder.
And you can see that they have loss of smell affecting this pathway.
And then it goes into the brain and affects the hypothalamus.
And in the hypothalamus, there's a little nucleus that controls fever.
So when that gets affected by the toxins, by these cytokines, you know, everybody now knows about the science, I've been working for years, cytokine storm you hear, viral load.
And these cytokines are inflammatory toxins that go into the brain.
They don't have to be inflammatory.
Some of them are non-inflammatory.
But they still damage the brain if there's too much of them.
And they stay lingering in the brain.
And this is what causes post-viral fatigue.
And this has been proven that the cytokines cause this for most patients who've had a virus and end up with ME.
By work in America, in Stanford University, they found 17 cytokines stuck in the brain with ME.
And there's Alabama University as well, done research.
Professor Jared Young is a neuroscientist who does work with ME.
And this has been proven.
So we knew that this was going to happen, but with coronavirus, that there'll be the same thing.
And we're now seeing this epidemic of long COVID around the world.
And the Parent Technique is helping this.
Some of my practitioners are having really good results with helping their lung Covid.
And this gets back to what we started with, talking about Lyme disease.
Lyme disease is caused by the bacteria Borrelia.
And you get Borrelia burgdorferi, which is the classification, Burgdorferi, I never know how to say Burgdorferi.
Bergdorferi, yeah.
Bergdorferi, yeah.
And Borrelia is a bacteria that comes from being bitten, usually by a tick, most commonly a deer tick.
And the parasite that From the tick, what happens is that the tick sucks some of the blood and this bacteria goes into the blood of the patients.
But it can end up in the brain.
And this is the key.
When these bacteria end up in the brain, it causes an inflammatory reaction and damage of the brain itself.
And that's known as neuroborreliosis.
And it's when people don't have this drainage to drain away the Borrelia, they end up with what we call Lyme disease, which is this neuroborreliosis which is very severe.
Because a lot of people can be bitten by a tick and not end up with anything.
They don't have to get the Borrelia.
And when people get the Borrelia, they don't have to get the neuroborreliosis.
So they get the rash, they get the famous bullseye rash, and then they feel fine.
They maybe need a bit of antibiotics, doxycycline by the doctor, and within a few weeks they're fine.
No problem.
And sometimes no symptoms at all.
But the ones that end up is the ones that drainage doesn't work in the first place.
So when the toxins go into the brain, they just build up.
And this drainage is a two-way affair.
And it's affected by the lymphatics.
And it's the lymphatics pumping the wrong way.
which happens when there's lots of poisons in the hypothalamus, which is a major control of the nervous system, of the autonomic nervous system.
And it's the autonomic nervous system, specifically the sympathetic nerves, that control the lymphatics.
So if the lymph pumps the wrong way, which is what I've discovered with ME, and with Lyme's, it pumps all the toxins back into the brain, pumping the, in this case with Lyme's, the Borrelia, It's not coming out, it's going back in and more and more Borrelia will go into the brain and stay in the brain and cause all the damage in the cytokines,
With COVID, this causes the same thing in the brain as people with long COVID.
So this is what causes this brain fog.
Because the hypothalamus and the frontal area are very close.
This is where the prefrontal cortex of your brain is the pathway from the nose into the hypothalamus.
And you go through this whole area which causes your thoughts to go completely chaotic.
Because it's where the centre of thought in your brain is this area.
And that's why you get this brain fog.
That's a very good, long answer.
Very long answer.
Hopefully people have followed it.
They should play it again if they haven't, Ray.
There's something I want to make clear.
This is not some kind of special James Dellingpole podcast for people only with Lyme disease.
What you're saying applies equally.
Two, people with so-called long COVID, which I think is a fancy name for the standard post-viral syndrome, which you get after flu, after every similar thing like that.
It's not some unique phenomenon that has arisen out of COVID-19.
It's normal.
It's normal for those unlucky to get this post-viral fatigue.
It applies across the board.
In the same way, it applies to people who've got ME and chronic fatigue syndrome, to people who've got fibromyalgia.
It's all a function of a malfunctioning limbic and lymphatic system, isn't it?
Yes.
And it's the functioning of the neuro-lymphatic system.
It's not just the limbic.
I know you call it the limbic system because the limbic system in the brain, the hypothalamus is part of the limbic system, the emotional side and the thought processes side of the brain.
But the limbic system is just part of it.
The toxins can go anywhere.
And this is what really puzzles most doctors.
Because there's a 100 billion nerves in the brain.
And those toxins can go anywhere in the brain.
So causing any symptom.
And the chemicals will affect the neurochemistry of the brain.
And neurochemicals pass between one nerve and another through synapses, and there's trillions of synapses in the brain.
So those trillions of synapses can be affected, and everybody's different.
So there's not one patient I've seen, and I never will see, one patient exactly the same as another.
Every patient, I've seen over 2,500 patients with ME in the last 31 years, and not one patient is the same. - What, they have different symptoms you mean?
Different symptoms, yeah.
It's a collection of symptoms, but everyone's different.
In my new book, which comes out in March, by the way.
We'll put the name of it below this podcast, but just tell us now what it's called.
Well, it's the Parent Technique, second edition.
And the first edition was published in 2007 by Hammersmith Vessel.
Hammersmith Vessel is publishing the second edition, which I've worked on for the last five years now.
And this second edition has all the evidence to back up all the theories I said in my first book.
We've got massive scientific evidence.
So it's a much larger book and it has details of of most of the conditions and all the conditions I'm talking about today and much more.
And it helps practitioners and patients get to grips with chronic fatigue syndrome, ME, fibromyalgia and similar conditions.
And it's called, the subtitle for it, it's the Parent Technique 2nd edition, but the subtitle is, the diagnosis and treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome, ME, and fibromyalgia via the lymphatic drainage of the brain.
And that's the key.
It does what it says on the tin.
Yeah.
And it's not just a treatment, it's a diagnosis as well, because over the years I've discovered diagnostic signs that show up in patients with these neuro-lymphatic conditions.
You have?
I mean, on me they're obvious, because part of the treatment is what you call effleurage, which is daily sort of massaging, isn't it?
Down the neck and up the chest and so on.
You've got to do this to help get the, get the, the lymphs draining properly.
And there were these things that you see under the skin, like little white maggots.
Now, presumably, are these peculiar to people who've got these, got this condition?
Do normal people not have them?
No, no.
These are like lymphatics that you can feel and sometimes see under the skin.
Yeah.
And they're varicose megalymphatics, as their name gives them.
They were originally discovered by Professor John Kinman, who was a professor of anatomy and surgery at St Thomas' Hospital and Guy's Hospital in London.
And Kinman discovered this, but he, as a surgeon, and he wrote a big book on the lymphatics years ago, in the 1990s.
And his work was never accepted fully because he talked about these varicose lymphatics, but he could never prove their existence beyond doubt.
And I took a photo, which is in the book, I took a photo of varicose megalymphatics.
Now what they are, basically lymph vessels are little beaded vessels, very, very small.
And the ones next to the skin are so small, you can never see them.
And their lymph fluid is colourless, so it's even harder to see them.
However, with ME patients, chronic fatigue patients and patients with Lyme's and non-COVID, they have this backflow of lymph because the lymph, controlled by sympathetic nerves, goes wrong.
So there's a backflow.
It pushes against the normal lymph.
So these beads become bigger and bigger and bigger.
And eventually they come to a size in some patients, not just you can feel them, you can see them.
But it's very rare to see them, but you can feel them just beneath the surface.
And you can't, the reason why you can't see them so easily is because the lymph is colorless, it's not like blood.
So they're like varicose veins, but they're colourless.
So they'll have the same colour as the skin tone.
And this is what we see always, or not see, but we feel always in the chest, because this is the main drainage of the lymph in the body, just underneath the collarbone.
And if there's a backflow, the first port of call will be the chest.
So I said that the hormonal link for the hypothalamus is the reason why women get ME much more than men.
It's the reason why women get fibromyalgia more than men.
And I'm not sure about Lyme disease though.
If it's more with women than men.
I'm not sure about that.
That we'll have to look at.
But the one thing definitely is that this hormonal link, hormones obviously are much more changeable than men, that affects the hypothalamus.
And this is one of the main reasons why women affect ME and fibromyalgia more than men.
And then it's the chest as well.
The back flow of the lymph goes into the vest tissue and there's much more lymphatic ingestion in women than men.
So this is one of the second reasons why you have a high number of women getting fibromyalgia and ME compared to men.
And long COVID.
It's very interesting.
Long COVID is the same.
Sorry.
Sorry, because COVID affects men more severely.
COVID-19 is hitting men more than women, which is interesting.
But the long COVID is hitting women more than men.
And it doesn't seem to follow.
So women are struggling to cope after being hit by the virus.
And that, again, is the same reason why women get ME and fibromyalgia more, because of this hormonal link and because of this backfill of lymph.
You've also mentioned to me before that you're more likely to suffer this problem if you're a firstborn, or if you had an athletic youth.
Yeah, this is it.
This comes back to the osteopathic principle of the cranial rhythm.
The cranial rhythm is something we feel, osteopaths feel in their head, and a lot of people, including members of the royal family I believe, have had cranial osteopathy over the years.
And cranial It's actually a very interesting technique to stimulate the fluids of the brain and it's a technique that's been used over a hundred years and I wrote a seminal paper in 2007 on it that was published in the American Journal of Osteopathic Medicine, the Journal of Osteopathic Association of America.
And this paper showed that the drainage of the brain into lymphatics is this cranial rhythm.
And it's very easily explained.
A lot of doctors and even some osteopaths are very dubious when you talk about the cranial side of things.
Cranial rhythm, this rhythm we feel, is around a 7, 8 to 12 beats a minute.
So where does it come from?
And with my research I've discovered the origins of it.
Cerebrospinal fluid in the brain, the fluid in the brain is produced by the blood and goes back to the blood.
So we know, any neuroscientist, any neurologist, anybody who does neuroradiography, looks at the brain, We'll know that the amount of the rhythm within the brain of fluid is the same as the heart rate.
It's produced by the blood and goes back to the blood.
So it's 50 to 100 beats a minute within the brain.
But now we know there's this drainage pathway from the brain and from the spinal cord as well into the lymphatics.
And the lymph has a pump mechanism, pumped by the sympathetic nerves, that pump the main duct of the lymph, the thoracic duct, and other parts, at a rate of around 4 beats a minute.
This was discovered by this Professor John Kimmon that I mentioned earlier.
So basically, you've got this pumping mechanism of 4 beats a minute, and now we know some of the drainage of the brain goes into this lymph.
So two pumps, two waves come together, and physics dictates what happens next.
When you have two waves coming together, they combine and cause an interference wave, a third wave.
You don't need to be a physicist for this, you just have to have been to a beach.
And most of us have been to a beach and seen a big wave coming in and a small wave going out.
And when they crash together, they produce a third wave.
And that third wave is the interference wave.
And this in the body, the third wave is produced by the cerebrospinal fluid draining into the lymph.
The two waves come together and produce this, what we as osteopaths call the cranial rhythmic impulse or the cranial rhythm.
And with ME patients and chronic fatigue syndrome patients, And many other patients with this neuro-lymphatic problem, including Lyme disease, they have a problem in the cranial rhythm.
And we need to stimulate that.
And the treatment, the parent technique, stimulates this cranial rhythm, but also stimulates the lymph drainage as well, to go in the right direction.
And that's how it works.
It just drains off the toxins.
So I can vouch personally for this technique, and you haven't paid me.
Or anything like that.
I just... It's nice to see you again, actually, because I haven't seen you for about, what...
A year or so.
No, no, no.
Unfortunately with COVID it's kept my travel to the bare minimum and staying in Manchester at the moment.
I will come back down south eventually, don't worry.
So, um, but I think people will be wondering, well, hang on a second, like Lyme disease is a major problem and lots of people have got it.
Um, ditto chronic fatigue syndrome or ME, ditto fibromyalgia.
There are people suffering all over the country and the world actually, Some of them in awful conditions where some people I hear about that confined to their bedrooms can own or some of them have to keep night hours.
They can only go out at night.
They can't bear daylight.
Horrible, horrible, miserable lives.
If you've got the solution, why isn't, why isn't the world, why doesn't the world know about you?
Why isn't, doesn't everywhere have a kind of... Well, as soon as I, as soon as I talk about this, and patients, when patients know my work, they all say the same thing, and you probably said the same thing when you first When it clicked, the penny dropped.
This makes sense.
In my new book, I list over a hundred symptoms and explain why all these symptoms occur because of the problem of the neurolymphatics and the problem of the sympathetic nerves not working properly because of the toxins building up in the brain.
It all explains every single symptom.
You get with Lyme's, you get with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, you get with ME, Fibromyalgia, all these are explained.
And once you understand that, then it all makes total sense.
I'll give you an example.
A lot of patients, not all, but a lot of patients get severe pain in different parts of the body, especially with Lyme's, and Fibromyalgia definitely.
So how to explain that?
And it's very easy to explain when you know what's going on.
In the research of the neuro-lymphatics, they discovered the main area when the drainage wasn't working, they did this experiment in mice, they showed that there were certain areas of the brain affected mostly.
And the two areas mostly affected were called the basal ganglia and the thalamus.
The basal ganglia produces a chemical called GABA.
There's a lot of GABA in the basal ganglia and these are very close to the hypothalamus that I talked about earlier.
These are part of your limbic system.
The basal ganglia contains things like the amygdala and other things that are very involved in the emotional side of your brain, but also the GABA acts as a pain suppressant.
And when that gets poisoned by toxins building up there, you end up with severe pain throughout the whole body.
All pain reception is heightened.
But then there's also the thalamus, and that produces a chemical called neuropeptide P.
or substance P, and that actually produces more pain.
And when that gets irritated by toxins, you get more pain from that.
So there's two areas, the two main areas in the brain affecting pain stimulation and pain sensation, really, centralized pain, are affected by the toxins not draining out, And this was shown all the years in 2012 by Jeff Illiff and his cohorts in Rochester University.
So they discovered this then.
And this proves what's happening with the brain of people with fibromyalgia, why they get such severe pain.
And this is the same with, you get pain with ME and pain with Lyme disease, severe pain, and this is why you get this.
So when you look at this drainage system not working, it explains everything that's going on.
That's a very good medical explanation of a common symptom of ME and Lyme and so on.
You sound very plausible, but I just know that there are going to be some people are going to be saying toxins.
That sounds like really new age.
That sounds like dangerously close to colonic and irrigation and the kind of new age stuff that I'm suspicious of because I believe in, you know, whatever.
So, when we're talking about toxins, okay, so you've given an example, cytokines, which are what, sort of protein lumps?
Well, cytokines are large protein molecules that are in the body.
People might have heard of them anyway, interleukins, interferons, people have had cancer therapy, have had chemotherapy, they often use cytokines.
And what are these cytokines?
They don't kill the virus, cytokines.
What do they do?
These are basically signalling molecules.
They attach to a bacteria, in Borrelia it would be a bacteria, with viruses, with Covid-19 it would be a virus, and the cytokines attach to the The invader, basically.
So anything that's not self, it would attach to.
Now, what it does then, it signals to antibodies to come along and kill the virus, kill the bacteria and get rid of it one way or the other.
But the thing is, if there's loads of them, in this cytokine storm, they don't all attach to just the viruses, they can attach to healthy cells as well.
The reaction, the response is almost identical to people who have chemo, when they have an injection of a major amount of these cytokines that will attach to the cancer cells but also attach to healthy cells, which then causes the side effects that people see when they have chemotherapy.
And it's very interesting that some people who have chemotherapy, by the way, end up with post-chemo syndrome, which is a form of ME from the cytokines.
But the cytokine storm that you see in other conditions, and these are part of the toxins, but there's also environmental pollution, heavy metals.
You talked about childbirth and the firstborn getting it, and sorry, we didn't actually answer that.
I became almost like a politician, not answering the question asked.
But I'll come back to that, because the firstborn has more trauma usually, because they're the first to go through the birth canal, so it will affect the cranium, and therefore we see a large number of firstborns having symptoms from day one.
They might have tonsillitis, they might have lots of runny noses, or sinusitis from very early on in life, All because of the pressure build-up on the cranium from day one of birth.
It might have been a very long labour, it might have had forceps delivery, or fontuse delivery, where there's going to be pressure on the head.
And the head, as a newborn baby, is very soft and very subtle, and it can easily be changed from the trauma, and it can affect these small passages that allow the drainage to occur.
So right from day one, you might have a reduction of drainage of the cranium, of the head, from a newborn baby, which can then lead to problems later on in life.
But toxins can come in different forms.
The post-viral, we look at the cytokines, but there's also chronic infections cause things like prostaglandins to form, which are inflammatory can be inflammatory chemicals in the body that cause problems.
But there's also toxins from the environment, heavy metals.
There's years ago, there was a big, big hoo-ha about vaccines.
Now it's a bit better.
But the vaccines, years ago, contained thimerosal, a lot of them, as a preservative, which was a heavy metal, which was mercury.
So they inject mercury-based into a chemical as vaccines.
Now they've taken away thimerosal, thank God.
But there's still other sources of mercury in the body that when dentists put amalgam fillings in, that could be a toxin that some people just don't get well to.
So there's a lot of toxins in the environment.
I mean there's thousands upon thousands of chemicals let loose every second of every day by chemical firms around the world.
And many of them are toxic to the body.
So the environment, unfortunately, isn't the best place.
But we also have stress.
And now we're under massive stress with this COVID-19.
And anybody who says they're not stressed is on a different planet.
But this stress is the biggest cause of neuroinflammation.
It's the biggest cause of neurotoxicity.
So inflammation builds up because of the stress.
Society can be triggered by stress alone.
So it's a combination of different factors.
Stress, physical stress, physical injury, it can cause inflammation.
So if somebody's had a trauma on their head or trauma in the spine, that can cause it as well.
Yeah.
So lots of different causes of toxicity.
Yeah.
So there are unlucky people out there.
And I'm one of them.
It's a structural problem, isn't it?
It's ultimately about, is your system functioning well or not, as it's meant to?
And if you're unlucky like me, for whatever reason, I'm a firstborn, I took lots of exercise when I was young, which could have caused damage, lots of factors which make me more likely to be susceptible to this kind of thing.
Would it be right to infer from that, that for example with coronavirus or flu, if this system is not working properly, that you are more likely to suffer badly from the the viral problem, or is it just the post-viral area where it's going to be problematic, and before then?
I mean, are you more susceptible to cytokine storms and the damage they can do if you've got this problem, or does that not come into it?
Yes, absolutely right, James, in every way.
This is what we're trying to say, you know, lots of people get viruses.
You know, years ago they used to call They used to think it was Epstein-Barr virus, glandular fever, that led to ME.
Now, glandular fever is a virus, Epstein-Barr virus, that targets the lymphatic system, so it's like a lymphatic virus.
And therefore, patients who got that, they call it glandular fever.
So, it affects the lymphatics, but most people get over it.
I had glandular fever.
And the doctor told me to rest for a few weeks and I had to stop for a few weeks and then I eventually recovered and I was able to carry on as normal.
Why didn't I get ME post-viral fatigue?
Because my lymphatic drainage works.
Yeah.
Thank God.
If it didn't work, I would have ended up with a buildup of poisons in the brain, toxins, cytokines after the virus and I wouldn't have recovered.
And this is the thing.
So patients who get this post-viral and get the long COVID and get Lyme's.
Unfortunately, their drainage system doesn't work beforehand.
We see this in families a lot.
And I'm the only person in the world that says you can prevent these conditions in the first place, because the physical signs are there before the symptoms start.
So we can feel that the problem's there.
We can feel the drainage system not working in the head.
We can feel the lymphatic varicosities, the backflow of lymph.
And there's also sensitive points and tender points and spinal problems.
We can feel all that.
So sometimes in families, and you might know yourself, in families, sometimes there's other people with very similar symptoms and we can examine those people and catch it early enough to stop the major symptoms starting.
So we do this with families who have ME, And chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia all the time.
We see members of their families, children, and just check them out.
And sometimes we find physical problems and we treat them there.
And sometimes we don't and the other person's fine.
The trouble is we can never prove that we can prevent this because the person doesn't get ill.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a no win situation.
So, but the thing is, we know that the physical signs change, we can see them changing and we can see the general, we can feel the cranial flow working better.
So this is how we work with the patient.
So, yeah, it is a susceptibility, definitely.
Doing the pairing technique.
I mean, you've got practitioners all over the country.
I've got a wonderful woman who does me.
But it ain't cheap because it's a hands-on process and it requires skills.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Does that mean that they're never going to... how are they going to...
I mean, it's very effective, but how are they ever going to roll it out in the NHS?
This is a big, big problem we've got.
And it's good you mentioned the NHS because the reason why, you know, my professor, Jack Edwards, who was a professor I worked with right at the beginning of my research work at the University of Salford,
He said to me when we published our first results showing that the treatment did help ME patients, it was completely thrown away by the scientific world because he said it wasn't done in the right way and even though they just hoped that I would probably be unsuccessful and we showed a 40% improvement in the patients compared to minus one of the control groups But it wasn't as good as we wanted it to be, and unfortunately, because it wasn't a drug, I wasn't accepted.
And this is what my professor said, if you were a drug, you'd be licensed years ago.
And this is the thing, because we'd be able to make a lot of money for pharma and companies, and the government would love it.
Just like they're rolling out the vaccines, and they're spending a lot of money, but the drug companies are are going to be paying lots of revenue back into the government.
So the thing is that unfortunately it is a hands-on treatment and it can become quite expensive if you're having months and months and sometimes in various cases years of treatment.
So how can it run out?
So it's very difficult but we are doing a research project starting this year at the University of Manchester And it's going to be in combination with Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust, which is a NHS hospital.
I'm working with the team there, and we're rolling out this do-it-yourself treatment plan for post-COVID, for long COVID.
We hope this is going to work on a long-term strategy that it will actually help reduce the symptoms of long COVID by just doing simple exercises and self massage techniques.
The stuff I do every day.
Yeah.
And if it shows that there's any improvement in the group who are doing this, we're going to compare to the ones that aren't, then we'll hopefully be able to roll it out throughout the country.
And it won't cost a penny.
And that's the beauty of it.
We're hoping it will help some people, but it's not the same as having treatment when you've got full blown ME and you need the treatment.
And then it's difficult because we are private practitioners, but there are some, hopefully in the future, some hope of getting NHS interested eventually in what I do.
But it's going to take, it's taken 31 years, 32 years now to get this far.
And hopefully it won't take another 32 years to get the whole of the NHS interested.
What about people who live in other countries, people like live in America, Australia, whatever, can they get access to this stuff?
Yeah.
Well, I have trained up practitioners around the world in South Africa, in America, but not as many as we hope in Germany.
And I do teach my techniques at grassroots level in the colleges in osteopathy in Europe, in Poland, in Germany, in Greece.
So they learn my techniques as part of their course of osteopathy.
So it's spreading the techniques.
My book will do stage-by-stage techniques for osteopaths, physios, chiropractors, physical therapists in the States and other places who have a grounding in cranial knowledge to be able to help those patients when they can't come to my courses.
But I am hopeful.
I've got about 100 practitioners worldwide and 50 of those are in the UK who are trained, licensed practitioners and some of them We'll be learning how to teach it in the future, because I'm not going to be here forever, and I know that I need to pass on my knowledge to others.
So there'll be other practitioners who will be training other, again, a new generation of practitioners.
So hopefully we'll spread around the world eventually, but it's going to take time, unfortunately.
I think another question people are going to be wondering is, why you?
I mean, how on earth did you chance upon this discovery?
Are you a genius?
Are you lucky?
Are you... what?
I think luck or fate comes into it a lot.
I was very much making my career in sports medicine.
In 1989, I did the World Student Games in 91.
But before that, I was treating leading Olympic athletes, leading sportsmen in their fields, especially what was known as the Raleigh Banana Team.
Um, I don't know.
I think you're, you're, you're a keen cyclist.
No, no, no, no.
I used to do it in London, but not now.
I prefer horses.
Well I've treated a few equestrians over the years as well and it's interesting because Princess Anne, she's a Chancellor of the University of College of Osteopathy and I'm one of the vice patrons so we meet up every so often and she's very keen on osteopathy as an equestrian.
But going back to my work in sports medicine I was working with the Valley Banana team, which was the forerunner of the Sky cycling team in Manchester, and one of their members had MA.
And this was 1989, in the days they used to call it yuppie flu.
The derogatory term that young upward mobile people get this illness because they're just not fit enough.
Get them out and make them play more football or whatever and they'll be fine.
And they used to drop like flies and I used to pick up the remnants.
So one of the patients who had this ME um was a was a former cyclist for the Raleigh Banana so he was recommended to come to me because he had back problems and when I examined his spine he was telling me that he's not been cycling for seven years because he's had ME and this was 1989.
So I said well I can't help the ME but I can definitely get his spine and your posture working better and this is what I did and whilst I was working on his posture and doing cranial which I always do in all my patients and did a
I didn't realise how much we worked on the lymphatics, because osteopathy, you should work on the lymphatics a bit, but I didn't realise how important lymphatics was in those days, but I was working on his spine and his manual problems and his physical problems, I should say, and then His symptoms improved, his spine improved, but he also told me his A-symptoms, for the first time in seven years, were improving.
And within a few months, he was completely symptom-free.
Completely.
He said, you've cured me.
And I said, no, I couldn't have.
He said, you have.
And he came along with a whole wad of information about me that he'd amassed over the seven years before.
And he said, read all this, because you've got the answer.
Nobody else has, and you've found the answer.
And I started reading, and I thought, well, what have I done?
And I knew that I'd worked on his thoracic spine, the top part of the spine.
And I knew from learning anatomy, and especially applied anatomy, that the sympathetic nervous system was a major central part of the of the main, the upper part of the spine.
It funds out from the upper part of the spine to the rest of the body.
And I said, well, perhaps I've stimulated the sympathetics to work better.
And that's how it's worked, how I've got you better.
He said, that's exactly it.
And I started noticing other patients who came in who had similar symptoms to him.
So probably had ME without being diagnosed.
And they all had Physical problems on the spine, very similar.
And over the years I discovered other physical signs that they also had, and the lymphatics was so important part of this.
And then eventually I discovered these five physical signs.
And by the way, we did a study within the NHS on these five physical signs that was published in 2017 in the British Medical Journal.
And I was very proud of the British Medical Journal, not an osteopathic journal, because it was a doctor's own journal that published this paper in the online journal.
And it showed 84% success in diagnosing just using these physical signs that I discovered, compared to 44% when an NHS consultant examined the same patients compared to 44% when an NHS consultant examined the same patients using reflexes, using patella hammers, looking at neurological signs using patella hammers, looking at neurological signs
How do they look?
Do they look ill?
And he was only able to diagnose 4% of the patients correctly.
And these are without any conversation, without any note-taking.
We just examined the patient.
I wasn't allowed to get involved.
I had to have two practitioners who I'd trained up.
To make things harder, I had one patient practitioner who I'd trained up just for the study.
So I had no prior experience with ME at all.
To teach, to show the NHS that we could teach people to do this.
So it could be taught in hospitals to diagnose using these physical signs.
And they still showed an 86%, sorry, 86% diagnostic compared to a 44% of the NHS consultant.
And he was amazed by it.
He just couldn't believe that he got 56% of the ME patients diagnosed as healthy.
He thought they just looked healthy because that's the trouble.
And that's the thing with Lyme's as well.
You know, some patients with Lyme's and ME and fibromyalgia look healthy, but they're not.
If you examine them, there's a lot of things wrong with them and you go through the history and it's post-exertion malaise that really hits them.
This post-exertion, they can manage.
And as soon as they exert themselves, they go downhill.
And this isn't seen when you see somebody in clinic.
You say, how are you?
Fine.
And they have a whole conversation.
And they do!
You know from coming to me, the new consultation is about an hour and a half, sometimes goes on to two hours or more.
And you think, well, this person can survive a two-hour consultation.
They're fine, but then afterwards they suffer.
And I always tell the patient, we never start treatment straight away.
Because of the whole stress of the consultation, that's enough for the patient to cope with.
But my basic golden rule, and this is what I talk about in my new book a lot, is ME patients, fibromyalgia patients, and also Lyme's as well, To treat it, you have to look at it like a jigsaw puzzle.
You get the corners first.
When you make a jigsaw puzzle, the best thing to do is get the corners first.
So what are the cornerstones for treatment?
And they're very simple.
Rest.
So not to push yourself, but rest.
Relaxation, which is different to rest, because you can rest and be as stressed as anything mentally, but you want to rest and relax at the same time.
Chillax, as they call it.
And then, also, if you can't, if you're under stress, some people have got a very stressful life.
And they're resting, but they're still not relaxing.
And they can't relax.
But then they should meditate.
Mindfulness.
Thinking of the present, not thinking of the past or the future.
Concentrate on some good that's happening now.
And that's so important.
And then the most important thing, and the thing that I started in 1989, Which was completely against the trend at the time, when it was yuppie flu, was pacing.
Pacing.
I was literally the first person in the world to say you should pace.
Everybody else was saying push, push, push, and I was saying no, you have to pace.
Half of what you feel capable of doing, and this is pacing.
So 50% rule, I tell patients, you know yourself, I told you this, it's very difficult for people with a busy life.
It's very difficult, particularly, because you remember, I was recommended to you by the youngest female British Airways pilot.
And it seems to me, you mentioned this before, that you get a disproportionate number of people who would be called A-types, really physically active people, which is why it's so cruel that it strikes It's the cruelest illness.
ME is the cruelest, yeah.
ME, fibromyalgia, Lyme's are so cruel because it hits the most active.
And this is because they've overloaded their body for so long, so they're built up, their drainage system doesn't work and they're pushing themselves to the very limits and then suddenly, wham!
And by the way, Ray, I have a confession to make, which you know is, well, you probably know because I bet you hear from other patients too.
I quite often ignored your rule and I'm sure it probably set back my treatment.
But now, I mean, for example, I run about 25 miles a week.
No problem at all.
I don't get, and you've just reminded me because one forgets what it was like living with Lyme disease.
I used to go on a walk.
I used to be capable of going on sort of long walks, you know, with my family or with friends.
But what I got afterwards was this exhaustion, like literally, I mean, it felt like being bone tired.
It felt like a degree of exhaustion that I think normal people don't ever experience.
And it's that.
It's a complete draining and it's hard when you're trying to push And the thing is, and this is very interesting because, you know, willpower, everybody knows willpower can get you through anything.
People have been cured, been known to cure themselves from cancer from willpower alone.
So what is going on there?
How does that work?
Well, the power of the mind is, again, through this sympathetic nervous system.
Through the sympathetic nervous system, it stimulates the immune system to work better.
So by willpower, if you concentrate Push all your energies into saying, I'm going to beat this.
Then the sympathetic nervous system can kickstart your immune system and make you get rid of all sorts of illnesses.
However, it's the sympathetic nervous system that's going wrong with ME.
Because of this overloaded toxicity in this area of the brain that controls, that's the main control of the sympathetic nervous system.
So your sympathetic nervous system is dysfunctional.
So the more you say, I'm going to beat this, the worse you get.
Yes, that's so true.
So true.
This is the big problem.
And this is the big problem with this.
And that's why it's such, it's not the worst illness in the world, but it's the cruelest.
When you have a problem in the drainage system of your brain, it hits usually very high achievers and A-type personalities, and it's the cruelest illness.
I know myself because I'm like that.
I always say I joined Workaholics Anonymous many years ago, but the first meeting was cancelled because everybody was too busy to attend.
I'm just, that's my nature.
I'm pushing myself to the very limits all the time.
And if I had, I mean, I don't know how I'd manage.
You'd be a terrible patient.
I'd be the worst patient ever.
So I do appreciate that, but we know it's the way forward.
And I said that this jigsaw puzzle, the cornerstones are this, this, and then the next thing you do with the jigsaw puzzle is the border.
And the border, I feel, is the pairing technique itself.
Looking at the structure, getting the neuro-lymphatic system working.
And how do we do that?
And it goes back to a very simple... Again, it's all based on physics.
When you push down the lymph, down to the drainage points, below the collarbone, and push up, you create a concertina effect.
This drainage pushes into the pressure builds up there and then it goes into the bloodstream and that creates the drainage and then it that creates another physical phenomenon called the siphon effect and we all know if you've ever had a fish tank when you're younger or have one now if you're cleaning a fish tank out you take a tube and you suck it up and it drains off all the toxins.
I know some people We always joke, some people, that's how they get their petrol, but we don't.
This siphon effect, how does it work?
Well, once you've created negative pressure, by building up this pressure here, it pushes the fluid through.
When you have a change of pressure from one fluid part to another, it creates this siphon effect, which then continues on this drainage.
So the drainage continues down the drain, From the brain down into the lymphatics, through the nasal passages, into the drainage in there, and the same for up.
So we do up and down, the back and the front, creating this concertina effect and this siphon effect, eventually draining off all the toxins.
And it takes time, as you know.
It does.
Once the drainage is working.
Once then your health is returned.
It's taken me years, but I wouldn't have it... I mean, I'm so happy with what... I'm so much better than I was.
And I'm really excited to make this podcast with you, Ray, just because I know that we're going to help.
There are so many people out there we're going to help.
That's it.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is, yeah, I mean, it's true.
And to be frank with you, the problem started maybe from birth.
So for many, many years, the drainage wasn't working properly.
That's why it took forever.
Some patients, it only takes a few months.
As my first patient, it only took a few months before he was symptom free.
But some people aren't all that lucky, and that's the jigsaw puzzle.
So that's where the sea and the sky piece is.
And some patients are 100-piece jigsaws, too bad.
Some people are even less, 10-piece jigsaws.
But some people are 1,000-piece jigsaws.
And that's a lot of complexities, and that's why it takes time.
So, if I have helped you, dear viewer, listener, I'd really appreciate if you, well, I mean, regardless whether I help you or not, you can support me on my Patreon and my Subscribestar.
You can also go to my website dellingpoleworld.com and you can support me via PayPal or even Bitcoin if you like.
It's greatly appreciated if you do get early access to my podcast.
Ray, If people want to try out the Perrin Technique, how do they get hold of you?
They can look on the website www.theperrintechnique.com.
If people want to find out, there's a map on there with the nearest licensed practitioner.
And as I said, if people aren't living near a licensed practitioner, my new book, which is published by Hammersmith Press, comes out March 11th in the bookshops.
It's available on Amazon now at a massively discounted rate if you pre-order.
So we'll get one sent to you, James, don't worry!
So, but the thing is that I'll sign one for you.
But the Amazon Prime is offering amazing discounts for the book if you pre-order.
So that should be, and that's if you pre-order before I think February the 19th.
But then it's March 11th, it's going to be out in bookshops on general sale.
So if there's no practitioner on the Perrin website, if you want more information, they can go on info at the perrintechnique.com or info at the perrinclinic.com.
We'll both get, we'll be able to send information.
But if you look on the map, you'll see the nearest practitioner to you.
So hopefully that will help.
That's good.
One more question before I go, while I've got you, because it's always great having a doctor or an expert on something to ask questions to.
People who've got Lyme disease tend, in my experience, to get very obsessed about the Borrelia spirochetes and various co-infections which clearly overload the system, and they become obsessed with this quest to destroy these bacteria and viruses that have invaded their body.
But the viruses, they're not really the thing you should be worrying about, are they?
How is it that they aren't really the issue?
In the end.
Not so much.
Can we just hold a second?
There's a phone.
The phone's going behind and nobody's answering it.
I don't know what's happening there.
Just hold on one second.
Sorry.
Anyway, I can just say, while you're waiting... I'm sorry about that.
I don't know what's happened there.
That's all right.
Sorry about that.
Okay, right.
Sorry, what was the question again?
Can you edit this or is this all just... No, it doesn't matter.
People kind of like the shambolic nature of it.
But I've sort of inferred from what you've told me that unless you treat Lyme disease very early, I mean, if you get bitten, by the tick and you get the telltale bullseye rash.
You can whack it with nasty antibiotics, which are going to screw up your digestive system and stuff, but will probably zap the spirochetes, which is the bacterium in time.
But there comes a point, maybe two or three months into it, where it ceases to become a bacterial infection and becomes a chronic immune disease problem.
Is that right?
Right yeah there's a the thing is that I mean I'm not saying I'm not against antibiotics if necessary so it's the quickest way if somebody's been bitten by a tick and shows the bull's eye rash it's always good to get the back you know kill the bacteria if you can straight away but the thing is and natural antibiotics are also very useful but it's not just that I mean we do we do advise patients to take a whole gamut of
Excuse me, natural antibiotics.
And there's lots of, nature's provided loads of really good natural, one of them is allicin max, which is wonderful.
Allicin is from garlic and it's an incredibly good natural antibiotic.
It's been used for centuries and Chinese medicine uses it a massive amount of garlic.
So allicin does help.
And there's lots of other things that are useful for bacterial infections.
However, You're right.
The problem will not go away by just killing the bug.
A lot of times people have antivirals or antibacterials for different infections, and dead bacteria, dead viruses, are still toxic.
You know, you can have a build-up of all sorts of rubbish, debris, that's still going to affect the body.
And therefore we need to drain these toxins away.
And that's the job of the lymphatics.
And if it's not working properly, you're going to end up working the wrong way.
Whatever drugs you put into your system, you're not going to beat the problem.
So the key, as I said, that's the middle part of the jigsaw puzzle.
That's the different supplements, different medicines, different diets, all these things, and different maybe talk therapies as well.
Some people might need those as well.
That's the sea and the sky of the jigsaw puzzle.
But you've got to get the basis, you've got to get cornerstones, you've got to pace, you've got to rest, you've got to relax, meditate, you've got to get the structure working better, and you've got to get the neurolymphatic system working better.
And that's the key to getting people better from this disorder, rather than just Putting elastoplast on it or just giving you a drug to help reduce the symptoms but not actually cure it.
Well, Ray, it's been great to have you on and it's made a nice change from my kind of politics because there's so many things that have been bothering me in the world that I normally deal with in this podcast.
This has been a sort of like a holiday from all that, so thanks very much and I really hope you can help lots of people because you've helped me and I always like the word.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for this.
I've really enjoyed that.
It's great seeing you, and hopefully we'll meet up in person soon without masks on, hopefully.
Yes, definitely.
In the future.
Well, in my case, definitely.
I don't wear the buggers, but... No, well, you should, because it reduces the viral load.
No, we're not going to go there.
We're totally not going to go there.
That's it.
Anyway, Ray, thank you so much.
I won't say.
Okay.
God bless and take care, and I'll see you soon.
Bye-bye.
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