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Oct. 7, 2020 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole

01:08:20

Ivor Cummins

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	I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but I really am in Ferrero Rocher ambassador mode.
	I am spoiling you with the treats.
	Welcome to the Deling Pond with me, James Deling Pond.
	And I know I always say I'm excited about this week's special guest, but I really am in Ferrero Rocher ambassador mode.
	I am spoiling you with the treats.
	I've got Ivor Cummings on the podcast here.
	Hello, Ivor.
	Hello, James.
	Great to be here.
	An honour.
	No, listen, the honour is all mine.
	Some people will be really excited and jumping up and down on their chairs or however they watch my podcast, or whether they're just jogging along, listening to it.
	Other people will say, like, Ivor who?
	You have a podcast.
	As the Fat Emperor.
	And already I can see one thing you've got way over me.
	You have quality.
	You've got your logo in the background with a kind of trendy wall of some kind.
	I don't know, symbolizing strength or urban... Cohesion.
	Cohesion.
	And you've got this fancy mic sticking out.
	I mean, I've got mine, but yours looks fancier than mine.
	And how long have you been doing this for, podcasting?
	Whoa, it was I think March 19 really, where I really kicked off.
	So not that long, but pretty quickly I got good gear because dietdoctor.com, the guys, the sound audio guys I worked with there, I just asked them, what do I need that's the best?
	So it's a Procaster mic.
	And a zoom H5 recorder, a couple of hundred pounds each.
	And that's the sound.
	And then the video is expensive.
	It's a Canon EOS R with a macro lens.
	And it goes through a connector to allow it to be my webcam, but obviously it's quite a good camera.
	Oh, okay.
	No, I don't mind.
	No, I don't mind throwing money at things.
	If I thought it was going to make a material difference to the quality of my podcast.
	I think the real gap with me will be the technology, for example, I mean, I can't edit.
	I have people who help me out, but I don't know how hard it is to do.
	But anyway, look, I'm really, really glad to have you on the show.
	I've just been watching some pornography on the internet, and by pornography I mean your incredible video you made, your thing that was big on Twitter for a long period, the one where you told it like it was about the state of coronavirus.
	For example, the Gompertz curve, which in Western countries, the flu or coronavirus, that's how they operate, isn't it?
	That's how they roll.
	They go like this and then...
	Absolutely.
	These respiratory viruses have their own dynamics and they follow the curve.
	And whether you do a big lockdown or a small lockdown or a medium lockdown, the curve is pretty much the same.
	And some people would argue, well, the curve was lower in severity.
	So same shape.
	But the reality is we have many analyses now that show that the curve was turning before the lockdown really impacted many countries so lockdown has been overrated to a incredible degree but the other thing is a hard lockdown.
	Should at least stretch out the curve if it was really person to person transmission you should get a big long curve.
	Guess what that doesn't happen the curve starts and ends around the same time for certain regions so there's so much data now around lockdowns not really being effective and causing huge societal damage and costs.
	That it's just amazing we're still talking about them but yeah i guess china just led such a leading light for europe china was such a.
	An incredible inspiration for us, because it looks like lockdowns basically came from looking at China.
	I want to go into your theories, conspiracy or otherwise, about why this craziness is happening a bit later on, and I hope you've got some, because I'm just...
	Normally I've got an explanation for everything, but on this occasion I'm thinking, what this?
	If you put this stuff in a dystopian novel, people would be going, ah yeah, there's flaws in that.
	No one would believe this shit.
	No reputable government would behave like this.
	It would be madness.
	But first of all, that video, the porn video I referred to, just because I I loved it so much.
	And hearing you in your measured lovely Irish accent talking in a kind of, you know, I mean, if I was doing it, I'd be like, I'd be sounding like Hitler because I get excited about things and I'd be saying, this is disgusting.
	How could it happen?
	But you're, you've honestly got one of those brains.
	Am I right?
	That you're good at statistics and you're good at looking at charts and you're technically minded.
	You understand science.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	I mean, from very young age.
	And when I came out of school, I was top in mathematics and in English, even though I'm Irish.
	So the both sides of the brain kind of work reasonably well.
	It's not my credit.
	I'm lucky.
	So there you go.
	But yeah, I went straight into engineering.
	It was a no brainer.
	I used to build my own bicycles when I was a kid.
	Everything in the world of technology fascinated me.
	It's been my whole life and i spent thirty years then in complex problem solving so it's really at the epicenter of where things get really tricky where most engineers actually often fail when you have multifactor complex interacting highly ambiguous problems.
	Uh, that are just really tough, you know, to resolve quickly and you can lose millions of dollars if you don't resolve them quickly.
	So I was very successful in my career because I found that I could go in and solve problems.
	And as the decades passed, I used more and more actual tools of problem solving, statistical, logical, comparative analysis.
	Uh, so I built up all my innate talent.
	My increasing experience and bringing in then skills and tools.
	So when I hit the health scene in 2012 to kind of root cause all the problems that cause chronic disease and then in Corona, you know, it's all just second nature really at this stage.
	It's a shame actually that we've got so much to talk about.
	We're not going to cram it all into one episode because I'd love to talk to you about the health side of things as well.
	Diseases of civilization, you know, the chronic health problems, Crohn's disease, and I mean, I actually think Lyme's disease is actually a manifestation of that.
	I think people obsess about the tick bite, and I think it's nothing of the kind.
	I think it's another form of ME, actually.
	But we can talk about that on another occasion.
	I just think that, and I want to talk to you about keto as well.
	I mean, you're a big keto advocate, aren't you?
	Am I right?
	Yeah, actually, we myself and Dr. Jeffrey Gerber from Denver wrote our book Eat Rich Live Long two years ago now, but it's low carb and keto.
	And I'm not a real hardcore pushing keto person.
	I'd say low carb, you know, minimal ultra processed food and eat real foods like meat, fish, eggs, you know, some vegetables, just a healthy low carb for most people is ideal.
	And then people who have type two diabetes, entrenched insulin resistance problems, And more difficult challenges can often be better to push towards keto for many people.
	But we wrote the whole book on it anyway.
	I feel that we definitely should do another podcast on that.
	But can I ask you a very quick question?
	I like the idea of low-carb, keto, whatever diets.
	But what about when I go on holiday to Italy?
	I mean, how does one deal with Italy and not eat pasta and pizza?
	That would ruin everything, wouldn't it?
	Yeah.
	That's a tough nut to crack.
	Yeah, the Italians, funny enough, 50 years ago, their pasta was made with a lot of egg protein, which makes the kind of wheat and carbohydrate not so bad to digest.
	So it's changed.
	And they used to have small little bowls of pasta as a starter and a side.
	And now you have huge bowls of pasta with a little bit of meat juice.
	So things have changed a lot.
	But pizza's gorgeous.
	But they used to have really thin, wood-fired base pizzas.
	And loads of toppings so as a percentage carb with a very thin base traditional.
	It wouldn't actually be that bad, and they are gorgeous.
	Pizza, it's just so good.
	Although I have to say I am slightly disappointed with that argument, that answer.
	I was hoping you were going to say, no, Italy's fine.
	When you go to Italy, their pasta is actually, it is low carb.
	It may look high carb, but it's in fact really good for you.
	And you can eat it as part of a balanced keto diet.
	But you didn't say that.
	Well, yeah.
	No i can't i can't i can't lie that's what i'm like superman i can't lie no but.
	Not quite i've been a manager of people for fifteen years so yeah i can i can twist the truth but i never twist the technical truth that's a principle of mine it offends me when the technical truth is twisted.
	Uh, for various ends and that's why this Corona thing drove me crazy for six months.
	Uh, but yeah, there's alternatives.
	You can use cauliflower rice and you can make bases of pizza using almond flour.
	So there's all these recipes on the web where you can have an alternative, or you can decide I'm in Italy on holidays.
	And you know what?
	Screw it.
	I'm not advising that, but that would be my, my preferred solution.
	Yeah.
	I actually interesting what you were saying there about how you can't tell a lie because.
	This is... My regular listeners may know this about me, that I have a particular problem.
	I'm virtually incapable of... Well, I can't lie convincingly.
	And because of that, I've generally told the truth, even when it's got me into an awful lot of trouble.
	And I suspect that this is the case with quite a lot of us, the people who've emerged during this coronavirus madness.
	The people who speak out tend to be people who are congenitally incapable of following a mendacious narrative.
	Would you agree with that?
	Yeah, I think in general what I've seen, like Professor Michael Levitt, the Nobel laureate who's spoken out, huge bravery and he got huge abuse.
	I met him in london there to filament with a film crew a few weeks ago at lovely man and professor be the startler.
	I went to switzerland interviewed him the vaccine pope of europe the top immunologist professor.
	And he's speaking out and getting abuse but again we talked about recipes about children grandchildren philosophy lovely person so honest so i think yeah.
	I'm seeing a huge amount of that in the people who are stepping up and calling this, um, they're decent, honest, upright people.
	And then the people who are pushing the hysteria, I would say very shady, often with lots of, you know, the saw, I think valence, isn't it?
	Big Pharma backgrounds and... 600,000 quids worth of investments in, in is it Glaxo I think?
	One of the companies manufacturing...
	Absolutely, but I mean, conflicts of interest don't mean that you're biasing the narrative, but equally you can't ignore them.
	But also a lot of Twitter doctors who fight back and say, we're all going to die and you're being irresponsible, sharing facts and data.
	It could kill people.
	Those ones tend to be very, they're a certain type.
	You know that i'm not the type we were just talking about and a lot of them are connected as well to grants from pharma then the big organizations driving this the who the world economic forum has said that this is a big opportunity for the great reset to bring in a managed control world these guys.
	These guys are low on empathy and are high on kind of probably avarice and, you know, deceit.
	These are corporate type.
	You know the type.
	Hancock is one of them.
	Grant Shapps is another.
	You've got these... In fact, one of the depressing things is the kind of people that you knew at school who were just conventional, career safe, really not going to distinguish themselves in life in any way.
	And suddenly these are the guys in charge.
	I mean, I was at school with Chris Witty.
	No, I mean, I didn't know, know Witty at all.
	I mean, apart from the fact he was called Witty.
	I mean, that was the only thing one knew about him.
	He was not, he was not one of the talents that you were going to see in the future.
	And yet here he is effectively dictating the The policy of the entire United Kingdom right now.
	Him and Patrick balance.
	It's like we're being ruled by the grey men.
	And, again, we should come to that later on.
	First of all, you've been... That video I mentioned, if people just... Where can they find it?
	What Google search do they do in order to get your killer video?
	Yeah, OK.
	Well, I say Google Ivor Cummins because you Google my name, you get my YouTube and website all on the first page.
	And so it's easiest.
	And just go to the YouTube.
	And if people look at the videos on YouTube, I think you click videos.
	It's around three videos back.
	It's dated the 8th of September.
	So there you go.
	36 minutes.
	Just my dulcet tones and pure data all reference to government and university sources and i just go through all the data and people.
	It amazes me that people just don't have any grass whatsoever of just basic data and logic because they basically got plugged into the media and the media is just a firehose of.
	Kind of propaganda i mean your own uk doctor john lee professor of pathology he's been writing in the spectator since march he was my one ray of light at the start when i realized they were ruining everything for no benefit.
	And dr lee was talking about this so i interviewed him and basically.
	You know there are people in the uk who are decent upstanding forward looking thinking of the next generation good people.
	Who are highly technical of work this out and they have said that the media is essentially propaganda because dr lee said.
	Propaganda is when the media keep repeating a story we already know.
	And reinforcing it all the time, and that's what they've been doing since March.
	Investigative journalism is when you challenge a story and want to re-look at all the data and make sure there isn't another way of telling the story.
	Investigative journalism is basically gone since March 2020, and it's creeping back now.
	You're seeing the odd article popping up here and there, kind of going, uh, hold on a second.
	But you know, Ivor, I'd just quibble on one thing.
	It's not even investigative journalism we're talking about here.
	It's just basic journalism.
	It's Journalism 101.
	And we're not even seeing that at the moment.
	People are not listening to... If I were a journalist now, on say... I started out my career on the Daily Telegraph.
	Say I was on the news pages and I was doing the coronavirus beat.
	I've been looking around and there was so much low-hanging fruit.
	There were so many experts.
	Now, maybe not at the beginning when we were a bit more confused, but now there's so many good stories about experts coming up with really interesting information to show that the reaction to coronavirus has been completely overblown.
	It's not anything to worry about now that the pandemic died ages ago.
	It's just in its death throes.
	And yet these stories are not being told.
	That's amazing.
	But take me through your greatest hits.
	Say I'm a great believer in, imagine for a moment, that I really believe that I'm going to die of coronavirus and that we should be doing more, that we should be wearing masks and we should be locking down again, that there's going to be a second wave.
	Just take me through the talking points about why this is bollocks.
	Okay, well, one to think about is, what's the excess mortality in Europe?
	There's countries in Euromomo, a database for mortality.
	It's around 360 million people tracked, and we have the last many years.
	And they've done reports, and I've taken the data from them.
	And basically, 2018 was a bad flu.
	There were some newspaper articles in UK where hospitals were kind of overrun.
	People don't remember that now.
	2018 and 360 million people there around a hundred and forty thousand excess mortality in the respiratory season the flu season and that's not abnormal some years it's a hundred K 2015 was maybe closer to two hundred K but that's the kind of numbers it's a tiny percentage of the population but they're the numbers this year be around a hundred and eighty five.
	So, 185 this year versus 140,000 in 18.
	No one did anything in 18.
	15 was worse again, and 2000 I think was quite high, over 200,000.
	That was the millennium year.
	It was a really bad flu year.
	Worse than this one.
	But it was just spread out over 4 or 5 months, whereas Corona happened in a very short space of time, which made it very visible.
	So there's a fact.
	Another fact.
	The grocery workers during the peak of the epidemic in Ireland and in America, millions of grocery workers worked eight hours a day, no masks, completely not locked down with the great unwashed flowing in all day long, all the stores, right?
	They were so exposed.
	They obviously got dead like no tomorrow.
	No.
	There was no real extra infection signal and no extra mortality signal.
	Right.
	So anyone who's all terrified, and this is back in the epidemic.
	When it really was going on and the grocery workers who were the opposite of lockdown had no extra sink signal of mortality or infection.
	And even healthcare workers in a report with the ONS English database, generally speaking, healthcare workers were not really much higher.
	You know not included ambulance drivers and all kinds of guys and that was data from before when the masks were coming in as a big thing however.
	Care home workers had higher mortality and security guards had very high mortality.
	Right and taxi drivers but that's more to do with your metabolic health and your socio economic status.
	Right?
	But, you know, there's so many points of logic.
	We have five analyses now that show that the lockdowns, essentially in Europe, happened generally after the peak was reached and really didn't change the overall impact.
	But people all want to go around locking down.
	Ireland all summer for four... Hmm?
	Because it just feels, it feels like the right thing to do.
	It sort of makes intuitive sense, doesn't it?
	That if you shut people in their houses, The nasty disease cannot leave the home.
	And so no one, no one will get affected in the diesel.
	Yeah, but they don't realize Professor Sinatra Gupta from Oxford was correct.
	She was saying back in March, April, this is all over the place.
	And the thing is, we know now the first UK known man to die was in December.
	He died.
	This was in Europe in November.
	They have it in the sewage in Spain in November.
	It's a high circulation virus.
	We've all been told that endlessly.
	And from the November up until March, it was allowed to travel with no real controls whatsoever.
	So the thing is, it got all over the place.
	So it was there before we could do anything about it.
	By the time we even thought about doing something, it was way too late.
	Uh, essentially, uh, sorry, the screen went blank there.
	Uh, but yeah, essentially.
	And if you read hope Simpson, the British doctor who studied influenza for 50 years, and he wrote a book, the transmission of influenza.
	Um, there's lots of data he puts together about a dormancy and endemic nature that the virus comes, it can fill out and then it can trigger seasonally.
	So these people who have a perception that, Oh, you're hiding yourself away.
	It's not going to spread.
	You know, it was all over the place by March, but no one was really testing.
	Yeah, and then the seasonal trigger occurred.
	So it was lurking all over the place, just waiting to get people.
	Well I'd say yeah, in Brazil it has been proven, in Brazil it was in the sewage water, in community circulation November 2019, same as Europe.
	But while Europe triggered seasonally, the virome triggered in kind of March, back down again, in Brazil we got the big hump out in May, June, July.
	But they all had the virus in the sewage back in november so you know the viral is very complex and pervasive and these simplistic human ideas that will just lock people down cuomo in new york came out with astonishment after they did a lockdown in new york and they found out weeks later that sixty six percent of the new cases where people who are locked down at home and they couldn't understand it but.
	Lockdowns don't really work unless you lock down a country when there's hardly any virus and you get in so early and lock down a big geographic area like maybe an island and you truly keep it out.
	But once it's in and circulating for months, the lockdowns just can't keep up with it.
	You just get the natural curves.
	So, what are the countries that have emerged as shining examples of how to deal with this problem?
	I mean, Sweden, obviously.
	Sweden has taken so much stick.
	And maybe you can help me out on this one.
	Whenever I cite Sweden to a true believer in the coronavirus monster, They always say, ah yes, but the neighbouring Nordic countries had a lower death rate.
	There seems to be a certain series of set excuses to explain why, even though Sweden looks good on paper, in fact, in reality, it is just disastrous.
	Well that's back again exactly James to propaganda because that's not science this propaganda so I'll try out a couple of things one is that the Nordics and Sweden when they took their actions you could say Nordics lockdown Sweden obviously didn't completely different approach.
	At that stage, whatever you did would affect the death rate around three and a half weeks later.
	Because obviously if you stop infections now, the deaths you've stopped will begin to show up three and a half weeks later because of latency.
	But the reality was Sweden was rising up in death rate way before that three weeks passed.
	So Sweden was already destined, right, to have a much higher rate than the others, independent of the lockdown measures.
	So that's just a reality and the other thing is that there's now a paper published 16 reasons why Sweden has a higher death rate than the Nordics that's the actual title published and the first one they put up is mine my favorite one is.
	Prior flu season severity so it looks like the one of the big yeah the biggest determinants of a country's actual impact on mortality is how severe the prior flu seasons where so Sweden had a much lower mortality of elderly than you would normally expect.
	And then they got a high peak of mortality and it's very sad but the reality is there are people who who would have been taken in a prior year and they're still here which is great.
	But when a tough virus like corona that's like a bad flu equivalent comes along.
	They're rapidly going to obviously be in in the firing line so it's it's sad but that's reality and we see across seventeen or eighteen countries nearly always the same pattern if the mortality in the past year and a half two years is kinda normal they get a low home for corona.
	And if they've got kind of a trough in their mortality, lower than you would expect, below, significantly below, then they get a peak.
	And that's just one of the 16.
	The 16th is lockdown.
	And this team said, to be honest, with all the other, you know, immigrant populations, density, with all the other factors, lockdown doesn't really have anything left to offer.
	And that's why there's multiple papers showing that.
	Yes, you call it the dry tinder effect, don't you?
	I'm avoiding the word because would you believe it's a word I took from someone else's published paper.
	It wasn't mine, but a lot of people get offended by it.
	You know, so I'm sure you're not worried about that.
	Not my audience.
	My audience like it good and hard.
	They do.
	They like steel dildos, probably.
	Steely Dan.
	Some iron in the glove.
	Yeah, exactly, they do.
	Unless I've grossly misunderstood my audience.
	Yes, tell me about Brazil versus Peru.
	Yeah, so there's endless examples of this, but I give Brazil, Peru, because Brazil, the president very publicly said no lockdown.
	Now some boroughs did their own lockdown because they were panicking, but that was the country strategy.
	And he was attacked like Sweden, seriously attacked, obviously.
	And Peru then did military style lockdown.
	And I think they had the mandatory masks as well from way back.
	But the two of them, Peru has the worst deaths per million.
	And they both peaked and are humping seasonally out in May, June, July, even though they had the virus in November, same as Europe.
	So I'm just going to make that point again, that the virome, it just doesn't respect lockdowns.
	It's kind of like, sorry, guys, I've been here for a billion years.
	You came from me.
	We have all come from the virome.
	All species on Earth have a hundred viruses associated with them.
	Even bacteria have hundreds of viruses.
	They were here before us.
	They don't respond to simple little intuitive things like lockdowns.
	So it's true about Mr Burns from The Simpsons that he's kept alive by all the different viruses and things in perfect harmony?
	In a sense, yeah.
	He came from the many way like we all did but yeah did you did you see the simpsons where.
	It's an episode release in twitter one minute clip where they actually are planning to release a virus like the government and all.
	Oh no but was it was it very precious.
	I, it's just so funny.
	I'll send you a link later.
	I think I put it on the hard drive.
	Someone sent it out.
	They actually go through it and it's literally a comedy carbon copy of what's happened here.
	Now I'm not, this one wasn't released, but they went through all of the scaremongering, how they'd managed the media.
	And they went through how the Americans reacted and the media, you know, came out with all the graphics of how it's spreading like every hour.
	And all of that was just prophetic.
	Oh dear, oh dear.
	Just briefly returning to Brazil.
	I mean, I'm quite a fan of Bolsonaro.
	Is he going to emerge from this with flying colours?
	Are we eventually going to realise that Brazil and a few others, Belarus, did the right thing?
	Or do you think they'll always try and arrange it?
	They being, I don't know, the people in charge.
	They're always going to arrange it so we don't know the truth.
	Yeah, I'd say the latter, unfortunately, James.
	I mean, it's just too big a mess up to ever allow it to be perceived as what it was.
	No way.
	So Sweden is a real problem because Belarus, you can say, oh, they're lying about their debt figures.
	I have people there.
	They're not.
	They did not get that overloaded.
	It's to do with population health, really.
	And they're just lucky.
	And prior seasons.
	I'm not sure the politics of Brazil You know, but again, you know, this thing can't be admitted afterwards.
	And I think this is a terrible thing, but we've locked down and we've had mass all summer, which was crazy because we should have been allowing safe spread and more immunity to build up when there's no real impact in the summer in Europe.
	And now they've probably caused more impact to happen in the winter.
	That's tragic but the other thing is there doubling down on lockdowns now coming into the winter and i think part of it is an instinctive fear that if we don't lock down now and do measures and the winter goes ahead and is kinda normal.
	Everyone's gonna say.
	But hold on a minute, then seasonality is true, herd immunity is true, all the stuff that the other people were saying, it looks like it's all true.
	So they almost have to keep up the pretense now, with all this pantomime that we're seeing in the UK and Ireland.
	It's crazy, but yeah.
	It's a massive face-saving exercise by the political class.
	Part of it, and part of it is, There are lots of organizations in the world that that really this is a huge opportunity shall we say and they're very influential so there's a lot of vectors pushing it but one of them is that instinctive.
	You know realization we better do a lot of fanfare so if the winter turns out ok.
	We'll have done that and we can credit that.
	And the old one is the fable of, you know, the tiger horn that keeps away the tigers.
	And after a year or so of blowing the horn every night, a boy says, but there aren't any tigers.
	And of course they say, yeah, see how effective the horn is.
	I want to get one of those tiger horns.
	They sound really good.
	Well, the governments are all blowing them now!
	There is actually a Simpsons episode again where Lisa and Homer talk about a similar thing.
	Do you remember that?
	Anyway, okay, now imagine that I'm one of those people who thinks that masks are really important and we should be wearing them more often and we should be clamping down harder on people like me who refuse to wear them.
	What would you say to, how would you Yeah, you attract a lot of flack when you say anything not supporting maths because they are a religion.
	So I'd say, well, Sweden have gone through all the studies like I have, and they've concluded, their top epidemiologists have concluded the evidence is very thin.
	They were never recommended in WHO guidelines up until early 2000 and 20 for a reason because the science many studies showed they had very little impact on viral transmission.
	There was a great study published in a dental organization 2016 and it went through with lots of references why it's a faith-based system even for dentists to wear them and it's been shown again and again they're ineffective.
	But that study was taken down around a month or two ago and the dental organization said, oh, in line with the current environment, we think it's not appropriate for this study, published study to be here.
	So they're actually censoring science.
	So you can go through endless science that says for influenza transmission, they're very ineffective.
	And that includes randomized control trials, associational studies.
	Recently, Denmark or was it Finland?
	It was one of the, one of the guys anyway, country said that masks might, if 200,000 people wear a mask, you'll probably maybe stop one infection.
	And, you know, this is the kind of reality.
	It's just, it's a new religion and everyone has adopted it.
	Uh, if you were just allowed to wear them, you know, out of the good of your heart, or you believe in them, that's fine.
	But we got fines and they've become law in the middle of the summer.
	And that's another thing.
	In the middle of a rising epidemic, with your ICUs filling up and your hospitals potentially overloading, like back in March, precautionary principle, you could say, well, let's throw everything at it.
	Masks, some lockdowns, we'll do everything just in case.
	But why do we do it in the middle of July or even June?
	Why were masks all suddenly coming in as the godsend in the middle of the summer when Europe had already clearly finished with the epidemic and there wasn't going to be anything happening till next winter?
	Why would you wear masks then?
	So even on that single point, even if they had some function, Why the hell would you bring them in the middle of a summer when nothing's happening?
	Because if you bring in something like that, when nothing's happening, if you start blowing your tiger horn, when are you going to stop blowing it?
	So when are you going to stop?
	I mean, when that came out, that was one of the worst days I had because I had told my wife, who's also a first class honours engineering, so she obviously has all this data and gets it.
	I told her in April, I said, look, the curves are turning.
	We knew that Italy turned before the lockdown really came into effect.
	If you look at the data, and we know China as well, Professor Leavitt did all the analysis.
	So this curve's going to turn down independent of their lockdown, and then they're going to have to drop it all and claim it worked.
	But what happened?
	In May, they weren't really dropping the measures.
	And in June, they weren't dropping the measures.
	And I was Pulling my hair out, hair I don't have.
	And I said, they're actually just going to keep going with this even though it's gone.
	And I thought, where is this going to end if that's what they're going to do?
	And then in July, they started talking about mandatory masks.
	And I just went, oh Jesus.
	We are in the twilight zone now.
	Because they no longer need any science or any logic They literally don't need anything anymore.
	They're just doing stuff.
	I mean, what did you think when mandatory masks came in in the summer?
	I just thought, I went, I was on holiday in Greece a couple of weeks ago and I was just, it was like 32 degrees every day, which is why I love Greece in summer.
	And, and the, The staff of restaurants were having to wear these plastic visors and all sorts of nonsense to queue for breakfast in the hotel.
	We couldn't choose our own buffet.
	We had to have people pointing at the olives and cheese and stuff.
	And I just thought, how not obvious can it be?
	I mean, how can you not know that hot weather kills viruses?
	You don't get flu in the summer.
	You don't get coronavirus in the summer.
	Yeah, I agree.
	The world has lost... It's like it's fallen off its axis.
	The spheres are not in harmony anymore.
	I don't know what the...
	I feel like we've entered the age of sort of medieval superstition again.
	That's the word Professor Levitt has been using for many months.
	He said, the world has turned basically to medieval superstition and away from science.
	It's an age of unreason.
	Now, it's being driven by a lot of significant international bodies and a lot of players.
	So it's not just happening.
	It's not a complete stupidity on everyone's part.
	And politicians are benefiting from all of this because they've got a big issue that they're taking care of.
	The people all believe it.
	It's great, great to be a politician in those times.
	So there's loads of reasons why it's happening.
	But what's happening is insane.
	And I've been saying this since May.
	I supported the lockdown in principle because precautionary principle, even though I knew it wouldn't really do anything, it was too late.
	But I supported it because, you know, and even mask use.
	Maybe.
	I talked about this on my show back in April.
	You know, masks could help, blah, blah, blah.
	But by May then, everything had gone Twilight Zone, like we described.
	And this is a first in human history in ways.
	Unless you want to go back to the Salem witch trials and, you know, this century past, nothing within a billion miles of this has happened.
	This is unprecedented.
	It's mad.
	Not just scientifically, but politically.
	I keep saying, and I don't know how you'd measure this, but I think that this is the most Draconian, anti-freedom, authoritarian government we've had in Britain probably since Cromwell's Commonwealth, you know, when they banned Morris dancing around the Maypole and they cancelled Christmas.
	And look, here they are.
	They're threatening to cancel Christmas again unless we really behave ourselves.
	It's like we're naughty children.
	And I mean, my kids are both at university.
	I've got two at university and one grown up in Hong Kong.
	And the ones at university, if ever they were going to vote Tory at any time in their lives, they're certainly not going to do so now because the government is treating them like miscreants.
	And where's it going to end?
	I don't know it's it's it's truly it's psychosis i've been funny enough the belarus president gave an address back in march and he basically said all this in advance to a packed room with no masks of all those people in the gymnasium i think.
	Any basically said that all of this is gonna happen he said for some governments will be to get the yellow jackets off the streets for others it will be to profit.
	After others will be other drivers but he said this is basically like a bad flu i've looked at the data we're not going to be doing anything and he called the corona psychosis now i know.
	People give out about him and no bella ruse needs a dictator the end of the day called correctly.
	No you can't argue with that where is it going.
	I don't know, I suppose when a magic sauce vaccine that was developed in months rather than five or six years, and they've never succeeded in a coronavirus vaccine over 20 years because of the technical nature of it.
	And the influenza vaccines anyway can be 20 to 30% effective.
	You know, so this magic vaccine, even if it's got good efficacy, it'll come for last year's virus.
	Right.
	And it's not going to make any difference.
	It's going to cost an absolute fortune for next to nothing.
	But I think for them, it'll be an exit.
	Oh, look, we've got you the fix.
	And you say, but yeah, that's not a shut up.
	Shut up.
	It's the fix.
	Now you can take off your silly mask.
	You know, now you can now you can stop all the silly stuff because you got the placebo.
	I don't know.
	Is that it?
	I think you're right.
	I mean, I think they are now so... They've set the trajectory where the only answer can be for the vaccine to arrive.
	But I mean, it may not arrive for a while.
	It may not arrive for years.
	I mean, I'm not gonna take it.
	Are you?
	Well, no, and the point is I've taken vaccines going, I'm clearly 100% history of no anti-vax.
	So screw you, everyone who wants to attack me.
	And I make the point a couple of years ago, I went to Shenzhen in China and I had to get vaccines for, I don't know, some Chinese stuff that's going on.
	I went in and I got them.
	I didn't even ask what it was for.
	I just went, it was just a nuisance.
	I just went to the doctor and she, the doctor did the vaccine.
	I didn't even ask what they were for, I didn't care.
	So there's zero anti-vax, right?
	But the fact of the matter is, I would never take a flu vaccination, not because I'm worried about what it could do.
	I just never would.
	Why would I?
	Because I know the efficacy is so low on average, and I know it's aged people overwhelmingly, and I'd let my immune system do it.
	It's just the way I am.
	And the swine flu when it came out, my wife...
	She actually went and got the kids in herself.
	And her mother was a nurse.
	She said, oh, you have to get the swine flu.
	And she said to me, oh, are you coming down?
	Are you getting it?
	And I said, why would I?
	And she said, oh, swine flu, swine flu.
	I said, have you seen the data for swine flu?
	Because I'd actually looked.
	And I'd seen it was Mexican drug takers had died.
	And I just realized there's so few people dying a day per million.
	What are they talking about?
	And, you know, that was a scandal.
	I suddenly remembered what I wanted to ask you, because this is quite tropical.
	I read...
	Some people who really should know better have fallen for this.
	For example, Melanie Phillips.
	I don't know whether you've come across her.
	She's a sort of conservative commentator.
	She should, by rights, have gone the Peter Hitchens path, but she didn't.
	She's become like, aha, you think Sweden's doing well, but actually, here is the latest news from Sweden.
	And I see that Anders Tegnell, the guy in charge of Sweden's health policy, he kept his nerve for so long.
	is now wavering.
	He's now talking about local lockdowns, possibly compulsory masks.
	Have you read this?
	I have.
	And, you know, the headlines go way ahead of the content, really.
	I think they've played a very good game.
	And I noticed during the height of it, when they were getting abused, that he was crediting Kind of exaggerating their lockdown emphasizing that oh, we're doing loads of lockdown even though they weren't really because a CNN video was done on the 6th of May in the middle of the epidemic and they're going around to hairdressers women getting their hair caught.
	The haircut is right over the old woman's ear interviewing them bars people having drinks so that was it but i think they were politic about it they knew they were getting so abused that maybe they they over emphasized what was happening now i think.
	It might be a way out of it now to move people away from country lockdowns, to talk about, like, if a local area gets a real hotspot, you know, we'll do something locally, what he said.
	It might be giving a little ground, maybe.
	I'm just, I'm theorizing.
	And also, they've done so incredibly well.
	That maybe there's an element as well of just guarding their prize of low mortality, lowest cases in Europe.
	That maybe they're willing to do belt and braces now because they're on the perch, you know, on the peak.
	You know, there could be lots of... But we know that belt and braces don't work.
	We know that they're an illusion.
	It's...
	Yeah but sometimes you do things that are a placebo just for appearances.
	I'm not saying that's what they're doing but you know they could be massaging and I don't know.
	Yeah, they know that lockdowns don't work.
	They know that distancing and hygiene with no masks is the guideline for the last 50 years.
	And they know that that does the same thing.
	Why are they talking about lockdowns?
	Maybe they're trying to repatriate themselves back in with the rest of Europe who went crazy.
	That would be my worry.
	They don't like being the outlier.
	They want to be in the normal gang.
	Do you think that, okay, looking at our politicians, and I know yours is at least as bad, if not worse, do you think the politicians, do they know?
	Do they know the shit that you've explained so well on your podcasts and that we know on Lockdown Skeptics?
	I mean, it's not like this information is hidden in a dark vault that no one can read.
	It's out there.
	Yeah, that's a tricky one.
	Politicians, well, first there's a selection bias.
	So people who will go into politics will tend to be the opposite of being technical type people, you know, because the talent set is completely the opposite end of the spectrum.
	So in fairness, politicians are going to be really dense when it comes to anything technical.
	It's their nature in general.
	So I would say.
	That partly due to that, and partly due to the propagandizing, most of them kind of believe their own BS now.
	They've been steeped in it for months.
	Everyone's saying it.
	All of their experts have been saying it.
	Second wave could come, and they kind of believe it.
	And I think there's a few who are smarter.
	And they know it's a very tricky situation.
	And they know that the Tiger Horn needs to be upped in volume to cover all of their collective ass.
	So I think there's a few in the know who kind of get this.
	Like they see my video and they're gonna go, that's embarrassing.
	But they know it's pretty much true.
	But they know that the show must go on.
	There is no way they can countenance, acknowledging, well, maybe the winter will be just like excess debt and excess ICU, like prior winters.
	Maybe we're through the worst.
	They can't say that now.
	And all the overlords in the WHO and the other organizations, they're going to get really angry if any politician says that.
	If any politician starts saying, looks like it was seasonal, it's kind of past, looks like there's a lot of immunity, maybe we should just monitor the ICUs.
	And like back in March, if the ICU and mortality rises threateningly, then we'll bring in the magic sauce.
	But they know they can't say that.
	You know, so some of them will know we got we got to keep this going at any cost.
	Also, they put billions into vaccines and trump them for months.
	And that whole thing is just going to collapse like the swine flu vaccine.
	That'd be a complete debacle.
	If it turns out this winter is like prior ones for excess, not that different.
	And the reality was this was a flu-like bad illness that has largely passed.
	So they'd be conscious of that too.
	There's a huge amount of stock and investment in that.
	It's so challenging a situation for politicians, isn't it?
	So, let's just go through, without sounding like conspiracy theorists, because I don't think we are, the reasons why the politicians are pursuing this agenda.
	I mean, okay, so there's China, presumably, WHO.
	Just take me through the guilty parties.
	Yeah, well, luckily, there's no conspiracy, as someone quipped on Twitter recently, when they actually tell you they're doing it.
	The conspiracy is when you say there's stuff going on that's hidden, but you know what's going on.
	That's a conspiracy.
	This is just data science, management policy, strategy, international stuff.
	No big deal.
	So, if you look at the organizations, rough and tough, the WHO has been very clear.
	They have driven, you know, Mike Ryan and all the guys have driven fear.
	And they came out and denied seasonality.
	Just when it was becoming obvious that it was seasonal, they came out with an announcement.
	It's not seasonal.
	It's going to be here forever.
	It's going to keep going.
	So they have been scaremongering nonstop at that's patently obvious so why well they are an organization that benefits hugely.
	I guess huge power and control and influence when there's an epidemic going on.
	Because they are handed the baton.
	So of course there's an enormous self-interest to keep it as max concern as possible.
	And they have many other drivers too.
	They're industry-funded, pretty heavily in many cases.
	And there's a lot of commercial interests connected into that, you know, in terms of medications.
	So there's all that stuff.
	It's not conspiracy, it's just reality.
	Then the World Economic Forum, very influential.
	Top influencers huge funding from all the corporates and they have come out openly no conspiracy at the great reset is something that they say this is a huge opportunity for us to get.
	Control tracking tracing climate laws all of this worldwide management and control that's what they're there for the world economic forum right.
	I need publish the EU has a whole wing on vaccines and a published a five year plan up to twenty one.
	I know that is vaccination passports tracking tracing so obviously all those strategies which they're doing with the best will in the world.
	Can enormously benefit from a corona crisis.
	So I think there's no conspiracy here.
	It's just big international organizations, often with conflicts, but not always, have all of their raison d'etre, their plans, their strategies to manage the world.
	And it's all hugely buoyed up by a Corona crisis.
	So they're going to automatically always bias towards, oh, it's, you know, it's a big problem.
	It's not a passing problem.
	So you got all that.
	And then you got the politicians, self-interest.
	You know, you've got to protect your people.
	You've got to be seen to protect your people.
	The people are spooked.
	You're going to protect the hell out of them.
	And then you're going to get to like it.
	And the SAGE committee, as an example, they published that they would use mass media and social media and make people scared so that they'd follow the rules.
	And they also called out there was a danger with making them scared.
	They called it out in a different column.
	That people could get over scared and could cause divisiveness you know an unrest so they talk this all through in March.
	Well, that's what's happened.
	They've propagandized the people so much at this stage, in kind of April-May, that the people are actually now demanding that the politicians do more lockdown stuff and shut schools.
	So, there's a self-reinforcing loop here of catastrophic proportions.
	They've actually created A psychosis, a hysteria, and the hysteria is now driving the politicians to do more.
	You couldn't make it up.
	They should never have created hysteria.
	Sweden proved, you can call them more compliant, but Sweden proved that you tell the people about the risk, you tell them about protecting Granny, you make sure they know that there's an epidemic and we need to be responsible, and that's all you do.
	The people generally Do that.
	In fact, in countries all over Europe, including England, it's clearly shown that, if anything, just knowing there was a big problem, people took measures that may have affected the curve, and the lockdown and draconian didn't add anything to lowering the curve.
	So the English people are not all crazy.
	The Irish are not either.
	Look at them now.
	They're all running around hiding under the bed.
	You don't need to propagandise them.
	You don't need to.
	Did you see that that German, there was something on Twitter recently that they found some documents in Germany where the phrases used were even more explicit about how to frighten people.
	One of them said that you should, it was a leaked government document, that you should dwell on the physical effects of dying of coronavirus.
	And I've noticed this a lot.
	People love dwelling on the physical horrors of how unpleasant it is to die of coronavirus.
	I mean, it's unpleasant dying of flu, I imagine.
	Lots of things are unpleasant to die of.
	Absolutely.
	I mean, you know, pneumonia and flu and a friend of mine, a pathologist said years ago in Ireland, it was called the old man's friend.
	And it was just because the aged and infirm, it would take them away.
	Uh, but this one is, it is a really bad cough and, and, and, and discomfort, but we've got drugs nowadays to take away most of the discomfort.
	Uh, but you're right.
	I heard about that report and I've seen it elsewhere as well.
	They were talking about long-term effects should be used increasingly to spook people.
	And I predicted that one...
	Long COVID.
	There was no long flu.
	There's no long shingles.
	All these viral illnesses, most of them, I've been told that by countless doctors, they do often have long-term fatigue and effects because of the whole immune system response and over-response.
	This is kind of normal.
	And in eight months, with 40,000 publications on COVID, there isn't one credible one.
	In eight months, we have millions of people had it, not one credible publication.
	Actually calling that out.
	And because they're all interested in making this appear as hysterical as possible, if there was good data for that, we'd have 50 publications.
	Trust me, we don't have any.
	So there are long term effects.
	And that happens as well with influenza.
	I know people just personally who are six weeks fatigued after a bad flu, one that only caused me a sniffle.
	This is not abnormal.
	But they are going to milk it.
	And I predicted this two months ago, because when I saw the deaths were going to follow, well, four months ago, I knew that, or six months, when they began to fall, and then they began to bring in more measures, and then they're bringing in masks, I said, they're going to start milking long COVID now, because they're still going to have no deaths and no ICU, and they need something.
	And sure enough, that's what happened.
	By the way, was it you who coined the phrase case-idemic?
	I didn't actually, but a small person on Twitter, I'm not sure who they were, very few followers, I think I saw it, I'm not 100% sure, and I immediately latched on to it.
	Yeah, but I popularise, I democratise.
	You democratise it.
	Just explain briefly what you mean by caseidemic and how it relates to the second wave that's going to kill us all.
	Yeah, so I just actually before this, I interviewed a professor of biology who's all over this like a rash from a Croatian guy, but a case them again, we clarify the definition.
	It means that you have lots of a PCR positives, but relatively very little real impact.
	So it doesn't really mean anything.
	In other words, if you magically took away all the PCR tests, no one would know anything was going on.
	That's a case demic.
	But because you're doing hyper-testing with PCR, and the UK, I think, since August up till now, the graph of their testing, they've gone up 3x and more of testing.
	Hey, Presto.
	If you test, you'll find coronaviruses in summer, you'll find influenza viruses, you'll find rhinoviruses.
	But usually we don't hypertest.
	So when you hypertest, you have a case demic.
	Nothing's really happening.
	Like one in a million is dying per day.
	The ICU is nothing heavy, but you've got cases.
	The other thing about a case demic is some people want to call it a test demic or a PCR demic, which is more accurate.
	But they're calling PCR positive cases and that is not right.
	So, the power behind the throne in Sweden, the epidemiologist, you know, he was Anders Tegnell's boss.
	He wrote a book.
	Yeah, he wrote a book on epidemic management and on one of the pages clearly called out, a case is a hospitalization or significant or severe impacts from a disease state coming from a virus.
	That's a case.
	They're calling these cases and most of them are asymptomatic.
	So there are only PCR positives and that finds a fragment of the virus.
	And it could be from two months ago you had it.
	You could have been asymptomatic then.
	It could be a false positive.
	1% maybe are false positives.
	And they're getting around 1% prevalence.
	Most of them could be false positives.
	They're just PCR tests.
	So it's not even a case demic, it's a PCR demic.
	And I will say it did happen before.
	And If you google Spiegel swine, those two words, you will get the most unbelievable article in Spiegel newspaper in 2010.
	And they talked about the disgrace of the swine flu.
	And they explain how basically a case demic happened.
	They had rapid PCR tests were available suddenly, you had massive cases, you had hysteria, but the deaths were not that high at all.
	And then they tried to sustain it with PCR testing.
	And then they ended up having to dump billions of dollars, Germany, especially many countries of vaccines in the bin because the thing was gone.
	But that Spiegel article will explain a good chunk of what we're seeing at the moment.
	It's a 10 page comprehensive article.
	And I just say to your listeners, Spiegel, swine flu, read that article and a lot of this will become clear.
	Before we go, can you just give me any grounds for hope at all that this lunacy is going to end?
	Can you see any way it will?
	Yeah, well, in terms of predicting, people are saying, oh, second wave.
	I think the best guess from the science is we'll go into the winter and we'll see a reasonably normal excess mortality winter in Europe.
	That's what the science would say.
	You can never say never.
	Maybe something weird will happen.
	Maybe it'll be a soft winter because many susceptible have passed.
	In the Corona spike in March, April.
	But let's say it's a normal winter.
	I think as time goes on and increasing pressure against the lockdowns, which we're seeing, especially in the Telegraph and in other newspapers and in Ireland, now in the Irish Times, we're seeing a lot of pushback and a lot more awareness of K-STEMIC and a lot more awareness of immunity from all the publications that have come out.
	I think there'll be more pushback And their position will become more and more strident looking.
	And if they don't really get anything but a normal winter, increasingly their position will look precarious.
	So I'm hoping that the people will rise.
	A tipping point.
	Once you get 10% of people to realize something and they're vocal, you can often tip the herd over.
	And I think we may get near 10% in the next few weeks, hopefully, of the population.
	And I hope they're vocal.
	The biggest killer, James, and the most shameful thing of all, the media has been shameful.
	Doctors and specialists all over the world know a lot of what we're saying.
	And they can't really speak up because they'll get in trouble.
	And I think that is just an awful shame.
	There's 400 doctors in, uh, I think Belgium the other day came out with letters to the government saying everything we said at the six 50 in Germany, there's, I think 700 in some other country.
	Canada have a big bunch as well who are coming out publicly in groups.
	We need doctors and specialists in medicine to be standing up and calling this thing.
	We just do.
	Yeah, I agree.
	Um, well, I hate this.
	I mean, you've got to laugh because otherwise you'd want to kill yourself, wouldn't you?
	I just, I never expected.
	Oh, sorry.
	No, James, I was going to say, you know what?
	I really let myself go here because it's you.
	And usually it's like a podcast talking about all the issues, but I knew there was a more, Bubbly element to this.
	So I actually found myself really letting go.
	So my normal audience will look at this and say, Oh, has I ever been drinking?
	But it's been great to let it out.
	Oh, good.
	I'm glad about that.
	Actually, because no, just podcasts.
	I don't, I don't look at many other, other, other podcasts.
	And, um, I, I was watching, uh, Joe Rogan the other day for the first time and he's much more sort of even than me, isn't he?
	He's just kind of, he's more neutral.
	I tend to try and work up my guests into a pitch of something or other.
	No it's great actually and it makes it makes a change a joe rogan is all measured and makes the occasional funny joke and then he's back to deadpan but you know.
	Yeah there has to be a difference most podcasts are just a serious conversation so i love the way at the start you made.
	Multiple jokes.
	It lightened it up.
	It was actually energizing.
	And then I found I just kind of followed that.
	Oh good!
	I'm guaranteeing something, right?
	Because I think my wife and kids think I'm just fucking wasting my time.
	Yeah, it'd be nice if I could make it work.
	Anyway, it's been really great to have you on the show.
	Anyone enjoying this, please remember to support me on Patreon and Subscribestar and you'll get more guests like Iva.
	Do you do this, by the way, for yours?
	Is that how you make your living?
	Yeah, I put at the end of each podcast.
	I was working for a heart disease charity for many years, stopping heart disease, basically, and I ended my contract.
	So I was kind of left Do I go back towards corporate work, contract work, or keep going with this mission?
	So I went Patreon as well, and a PayPal monthly or one-off, which was strongly suggested.
	Some people don't really like Patreon, so you give them a PayPal monthly or one-off option.
	And it's worked out quite well.
	It's replaced a good chunk of my salary, and it's allowing me with other projects to keep going.
	Is this your main source of income, this and your books, or what?
	Yeah, the books don't make much money, as you may be aware, but you know, you get a dollar... Is it even worth writing a book anymore?
	I wonder about this.
	It's a right of passage that you know in the in the movement i was in with all the lecturing you kind of have to have a book but once you do it you've done it.
	No point doing books for money but you know you have your book out and you refer people to it and it puts together all we have three hundred and fifty scientific references in it we have recipes we have all the science it was just a huge work.
	Active work that have to be done so it's out there but it doesn't make much money so but if you add in patreon and paypal and then i can always turn on a top of contract work so i'm working with people in the states and heart disease reversal.
	I'm working with new zealand a good body of mine from a year ago who does nutraceuticals and so i've been working with him a new products so like i. I've got multiple projects but i always have to prioritize.
	At the moment I'm prioritising Corona because of a public need.
	What's the big story on this?
	It's quite topical.
	It is quite topical.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And, you know, I thought, why not talk about it?
	But no, in fairness, no.
	People need to be, as we said, getting the data out because the world is going in a sinister route.
	So I'm putting a lot of time in that.
	But luckily, the Patreon guys, I have new guys come in because of Rona, because I was keto and low carb.
	So probably a lot of people are coming in supporting me because they're seeing me delivering a crucial function.
	But, you know, It's just I'm a self-employed kind of out there guy now, and I was a corporate manager and technical, you know, master for 30 years.
	And now the last couple of years, I'm kind of out there.
	So it's good in a way.
	Midlife reset.
	Yeah, that's good.
	But not but not the great reset.
	We don't want one of those at all.
	No, no.
	Good.
	Last thing, just one quick.
	My daughter is a medical student and she obviously gets all of this.
	She's been asking me every day for the last couple of months, what's the latest?
	But I explained to her about the Great Reset and about the drivers behind this.
	And, um, I kind of explained it.
	It's not a conspiracy theory.
	I said, think of like Singapore.
	I worked in Singapore a lot and they have a managed society.
	That's kind of like a benign dictatorship and everyone's kind of tracked and traced.
	You know, you probably know how Singapore is, but they still get to go and do their sports and have their phone and work, but you don't step out of line.
	I said the world economic forum and all these other organizations, they want something like a kind of a Singapore for the world.
	And, uh, she said.
	It sounds like they want a fucking ant farm.
	She didn't like the idea of that.
	Your daughter has just explained, in the best possible way, what the Great Reset is.
	It's like in London Zoo.
	Have you been to London Zoo recently?
	But they've got rid of all the animals.
	I mean, all the lions and tigers are pretty much anything big, anything you'd want to see they got rid of because, you know, because it's cruel keeping them in cages or something.
	But they've got a fantastic leaf ants.
	Their leaf ant collection is unrivaled.
	You see these ants crawling along these ropes, carrying their leaves and doing their ant shit.
	They've got a great ant farm.
	I bet you they've all got their health passports as well if they want to go to other colonies.
	The best health passports.
	Let's do another podcast soon, I hope.
	It's been great having you on the show.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you, James.
	I'm all fired up now for the evening.
	You've energized me.
	Thanks a lot.
	Anytime.
	Thank you, mate.
	Bye-bye.

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