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Feb. 14, 2019 - The Delingpod - James Delingpole
01:04:21
Delingpod 7: Lauren Southern
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So, welcome to the Delling Pod.
And I have, you know, I have been spoiling you, you special listening friend, with guests.
Guests beyond your wildest dreams.
And here I have found another one, possibly the starriest of all.
I've got Lauren Southern here!
Well, thank you so much for having me.
No, it's a real thrill.
Lauren, I have to ask you, because this strikes me as so bizarre.
Just remind the special listening friend why it was that you can't come to the UK anymore, can you?
No, I can't.
And it is on charges of racism, allegedly, because I said Allah was gay.
I'm not sure what that has to do with race.
If you figure it out, you can let me know.
But still trying to figure out how gay people in Allah are a race.
Or how suggesting Allah being gay is offensive to progressives at all.
Yeah, exactly.
Because that would imply that there's something wrong about being gay.
Right.
Why can't God be gay?
Isn't that beautiful and stunning and brave?
And isn't he everything anyway?
Right.
Wow.
I should have used that one.
Maybe I'd be allowed to do this interview in the UK if I were that sharp.
You know who you should have had advising you?
If you'd got the Imam of Peace, he would give you the theological grounds for arguing that case.
Well, you know, what's that show, Make a Millionaire or whatever?
The show Millionaire where they give you like a phone a friend.
Who wants to be a millionaire, yeah.
Who wants to be a millionaire, yeah.
So I had one phone a friend and it was only after like two hours because when you're detained under Schedule 7, For your first hour, you're not allowed to talk to anyone, you're not allowed legal representation, and you don't actually have a right to remain silent, which makes it a very unique law in all of the world, actually.
But after an hour, I demanded to speak to a lawyer, and they couldn't find me one.
So that's one of the only reasons that I got out of that horrific questioning sessions.
They couldn't find you a lawyer because, why, it was the funny time of day, or...?
Well, it was a funny time of day.
It was like the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, like 6am or something after they'd been questioning me all night.
And we were on the French side of the UK because I was coming over the channel from Calais to Kent.
So you were in France when this happened, in a kind of British customs zone, as it were.
Precisely.
And they couldn't find a lawyer there to come represent me.
I see.
But just backtracking a moment, you are a Canadian citizen.
Yes.
Yes.
As far as I know.
And hitherto, I mean, generally, when we British exclude foreigners from coming into our country, I mean, I would assume that anyone excluded from the UK would have done really bad shit, like there would be a terrorist...
Or have terrorist affiliations.
I would not expect them to turn back at the border a blonde Canadian girl who just participated in a kind of frivolous film stunt.
Well, apparently questioning Allah's sexuality is an act of terrorism now because they did pull me in under the Terrorism Act.
So yeah, it was Schedule 7 Terrorism Act.
So you are speaking to a terrorist face-to-face right now.
Ask all of the wildest questions you've ever wanted to ask a real terrorist.
Have you ever puzzled over that situation?
About how high the orders came from and how you even came up on these people's radar.
I mean, when do customs officers have time to look at the internet and see what amusing shorts people have made?
Now, before I get banned from any more countries, I do want to reiterate I am not actually a terrorist.
I do not support terrorism.
But yes, I have asked this question many times, staring at the ceiling at night, wondering how in the world did this end up being my life?
What I think was the reason they used Schedule 7 was they didn't have any legitimate reasons to pull me in and detain me for that long.
but Schedule 7 can be used quite powerfully to detain you for a long time without any legal help, right?
So they needed to come up with a reason to not allow me in the country.
So they used Schedule 7 to make sure I could be stuck in one spot while they came up with a reason.
Because when they gave me the form from the home office saying, you're banned, it was like there were typos on it.
Tons of people thought it was fake because of the typos.
So it seemed like they just woke up in the morning.
They're like, racism.
Yeah, but that's an interesting question.
So are we talking about rogue officers, rogue kind of low-down people in the system, or do you think we're talking Home Secretary level or higher?
To do Schedule 7, I think you'd have to be pretty high to bring someone in under that.
That's just my assumption.
I don't think, like, the officers were actually quite nice that did the questioning, just bizarre questions, but I don't think, like, they were just following orders as far as I'm concerned.
Right.
Just the timeline here.
What year was this that you were banned?
This would have been March 2018.
Right.
So quite recently, the wound is still raw.
And never again will you see in the flesh the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben, Stonehenge.
You know what?
I want nothing to do with it.
I want nothing to do with the United Kingdom.
I know you say, like, oh, we are the best people in the world.
You might be great people, but your country, it's doomed.
I want nothing to do with it.
I'd rather not be looking over my shoulder to see if there's a trolley about to run me over.
I would feel really, really pissed off.
And I think what happened to you is outrageous.
Let me run a theory past you.
I think that there has been a pretty concerted effort by the deep state, if you like, or by...
Yeah, by the political establishment.
To create a kind of moral equivalence between Islamic terrorism and this far-right bugbear that they've got.
They recognize that Islam is a growing threat, or Islamism is a growing threat in the UK, and therefore they have to create this parallel bugbear to show that they are not being racist or Islamophobic.
And people like you are...
Convenient for that narrative.
Yeah, well, they really have to...
I think there was a drill they did a little bit ago in the UK to practice how to respond to a terrorist incident.
And in the fake drill, the terrorist yelled out, allow Akbar.
And it was massively controversial because they said, how dare you use someone yelling out allow Akbar in your training session?
They never do that.
Right, because they never do that.
And it was massively offensive.
So now there's this huge push to try and portray, oh, it could be anyone.
You could never pick them out.
Little old granny, 83 years old, with her walking stick, could blow up at any second, right?
Two of the interns here at the European Union, where we are right now, I have...
I was just talking to them about this and they said they did a little quiz online and it says you need to pick out the terrorists and it's one of those police quizzes that they put on Facebook and they say do the quiz.
So they've got all these pictures.
It's like guess who board.
And all of them, there's tons of Muslim men, Pakistani or whatever.
And then there's like one white guy in the list and his face is there and it says, pick the terrorist.
And of course, you pick someone who just looks Muslim or whatever.
And it's like, wrong!
It was the white guy.
Was it?
Yes!
So they clearly should be arresting more white guys, if that's the case.
I didn't know about this.
I love that we need to have like quotas for terrorists based on race and gender and everything.
I don't know if you saw there's a huge UN Women's Initiative where they published something saying 20 it was like 10 or 20 percent of journalists who die in the field are women and they were just like trying to point out like oh this is horrific and everyone in the comments was very confused they were saying Do we need more women to die?
Is this supposed to be 50% women dying in the field?
Are we missing that?
It's 80% of men dying!
I am not going to rest until we've got 50-50%.
I'm not going to...
Actually, I can't say that.
I was just about to be...
Actually, because of the dangerous things you do, you don't want to be tempting.
You're a brave girl.
I am just trying to equalize the amount of genders dying in journalism here.
I am very progressive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is an act of supreme sacrifice.
I want to come on to your latest project in a minute, but first of all, I want to know the story about how you became Lauren Southern.
Tell me a bit about your background and...
I have an extraordinarily boring backstory.
There's absolutely nothing interesting about me.
Very normal.
Grew up playing video games, going to school, playing volleyball.
Lovely family.
I wasn't beaten up by immigrants in the street or something and decided to become right-wing Batman.
I don't know.
I'm pretty normal.
I think like most people these days, it's just a matter of there's a huge contradiction going on In the media, the things that were being told to me in my classrooms and my university lectures growing up just seemed completely bizarre and detached from reality.
So I said something about it and apparently I said it at the right time when there was an upswing or rather a huge vacuum waiting for people to comment and criticize feminism.
Which allowed me to get the platform I have now.
I literally just said something that I think plenty of people were thinking.
And it was at the very beginning of the spark of kind of this resistance to mainstream narratives.
What did you say?
Oh, I made a video where I explained why I'm not a feminist.
And I just showed all of the statistics of men's issues...
How men are being murdered in the workplace, how they are more likely to commit suicide, how they have very high rates of rape in prisons, for example, and these are just not issues we talk about, so I couldn't connect with the feminist message that was being sold to me at the time.
And that was something that a lot of people were thinking, apparently.
And the video went viral?
It went completely viral.
I still honestly, the video when it was put on Facebook, I think the link has been taken down now, but it had about 30 million views on Facebook, more views than anything I've ever made since then.
Well, you went from complete nobody to, I mean, a legend.
It was terrifying.
I was 19 years old, so my entire adult life I have been kind of a social media personality, and it's a very bizarre thing to think about.
Luckily, doing these documentaries now, I have a bit of time to kind of back away and be normal.
But yeah, it's been a whirlwind of three, four years of just hammering these stories and talking about these major issues.
Was there a good bit?
Before it all became too much, as I imagine it did, was there a period where you just thought, yay, this is just like cool?
The Trump period, I think everyone had immense fun that was involved in this.
And everyone watching it as well because it was a massive cultural shift.
It was a turning point.
So you felt like you were surfing a really good wave.
Yes.
And that's always fun, isn't it?
Yes.
But now I think the right wing in general is kind of like a dog that was chasing cars and they've caught it.
Now they don't really know what to do other than rip up the seats.
So it's...
Right.
So I kind of was thinking, like, I've made all these videos.
I've made all my points.
Many people have made their points.
Now, I guess, the best way that I can contribute to this, because we all rode that wave, and that wave has kind of settled down now.
The best way I can contribute is by doing long-form, really well-considered, really well-thought-out content in the documentary form.
And it's been a very enlightening and humbling experience, Rather than this sort of very invigorating and exciting five-minute viral videos situation that I was in for years and years before that.
Yeah.
Well, we saw this morning, before this interview, some excerpts from you.
You haven't edited your new movie yet.
Tell us what it's called.
It's called Borderless.
Borderless.
And can I just pick you up on one thing?
You were talking about the dog chasing the car and it's got to the car and it's ripping up the seats.
Actually, can I remind you that you still have President Bieber in charge of your country?
Yeah.
In the UK, we still haven't got Brexit and we've got this kind of left wing deep state.
Europe is in chaos.
So I think you do actually have a lot of work to be done.
Oh, absolutely.
So tell us what you do in this movie.
Well, initially, the Borderless Project, we were hoping to highlight and discuss what has happened to Europe since this mass influx of migrants.
How the culture is changing, our language is dying, our small towns slowly changing into Sharia law.
You hear about We're good to go.
We've got to try and drive around the country and stay places and film and buy equipment with $5,000.
We'll see how that goes.
So this was a much bigger project.
And we figured we could go with security to the other side of the crisis, to the other side of the Mediterranean, and investigate what's going on in Turkey and Morocco as well.
And when we did that, the whole...
This borderless movie, what we were approaching it, the way we were approaching it completely changed because we realized one of the most fascinating parts of this whole crisis is Europeans are not the only victim here.
They are definitely a victim dealing with terrorism, cultural decay, financial collapse, but these migrants are being sold a lie.
They are being told by these traffickers, they are going to paradise.
They are being told, give me 5,000 euros and I will send you there and you'll have a place to live.
You'll have tons of money.
There's no crime here.
Europe is amazing.
It's perfect.
And these migrants then get in these dinghies.
Some of them drown.
Some of them die.
They get to Europe and they're living in camps with criminals, sleeping on wet mattresses, getting attacked if they're actual refugees that are Christians.
Crap food.
Even if they do make it to Europe, they're living under bridges.
It's insanity.
Is there not an end goal beyond that where it suddenly gets all right?
Once they get within the welfare system, aren't they going to be okay?
Well, the issue is some of them do manage to get welfare and some of them do manage to get into the system, but there are so many people coming.
The infrastructure in Europe just can't handle it.
And one of the biggest problems is on the advice of these traffickers, a lot of these people, well, most of them, Throw their passports into the sea so that they can't be deported back to their home country, or if they have criminal records so that they can't figure out who they are.
How do you expect border force, how do you expect countries to process these people, give them asylum, give them jobs, even give them welfare, if we have no idea who they are?
I'll tell you how I expect, because it seems to me that the European nations are completely supine when it comes to refugees, and it seems to me that they don't have the appetite or the ability to deport them, therefore they are within the system de facto.
Well, at one point, it may have been that way, but the gravy train is running out.
Is that right?
They'd love to, I mean, I'm sure these people that promised migrants the world would love to just keep giving them money, but I said this in my speech, our compassion may be endless, but our resources are not.
There are literally not enough hotels in Paris to put these people up in.
They've filled them up, so when new ones come, they have to kick them out after eight months.
So they're running around in these Afghan camps or these African camps, delirious on drugs and Just in the streets of Paris in Porte de la Chapelle.
They've moved all the way up to the complete most northern points of Europe, desperately just trying to find somewhere that can give them welfare.
That's why they're moving all the way to Sweden, because they've just sucked Greece dry.
They've sucked Italy dry.
They've sucked France dry.
Where do they go next?
Spain seems to be unusually welcoming at the moment.
Yeah, but they're not going there to stay in Spain.
They're going there because they'll instantly get a lawyer.
They'll instantly...
They won't be deported when they go there.
It's a great starting point to get into the Schengen zone.
But yeah, like as much as...
I will not deny, Europeans are a huge victim in this.
Just their culture, their towns, money that should never be spent on people who are just false migrants pretending to be refugees coming in.
Absolute waste.
It should be spent on your own people, your own homeless, your own struggling...
But these migrants, they are being told from every which media outlet, Macron, Merkel, they want you to come.
They welcome you.
This is a country of immigrants.
We want you here in Europe.
So where are they seeing this stuff?
Well, they would see it online.
It would be spread to them by NGOs or anyone that went and worked on the other side of the water.
Certainly the traffickers love They love, love, love when European politicians say, refugees welcome.
They love when the left-wing media show videos of migrants being invited to the Vatican, as they have been.
Migrants getting their own Olympic team.
Because that's the image that is then put in the head of these migrants when they sell their homes to get 5,000 euros to give to a human trafficker.
And the trafficker is laughing all the way home at us idiot Europeans.
That are selling this lie to their customers.
And then they get there and it's a whole scam perpetrated both by the traffickers who want people to believe this and by the leftists promising these people paradise.
And the victim of this are the people there purporting to love and want to help that are now sleeping under bridges.
I think what I saw of your film, one of the good things about it is that you don't demonize the migrants.
There's a lot of sympathy for migrants and I think this is going to make your message more powerful.
That the real villains of the piece are the people smugglers and also the Soros-funded, presumably, NGOs, the left-wing NGOs, which are working to help these people, some of them who may be criminals.
So tell me a bit about that, about what you found the NGOs doing.
Right.
So one of our biggest investigations, which we did publish on YouTube, was into a group called Advocates Abroad.
They are a lawyer.
They offer legal advice to migrants, which it's supposed to be how it's advertised, is legal advice for refugees.
People who need to leave the Middle East, people who need to leave Africa because they are being, the government that's after them, they're Christians being persecuted by Muslims, and then they help them find a place in Europe as refugees.
To be a refugee, the bar is quite high, isn't it?
You've got to have been in danger of persecution in your home country.
There's nothing else you can do but flee for your life.
Correct.
But what has ended up happening with this group, Advocates Abroad, is instead they are training migrants, economic migrants, how to pretend to be refugees.
So they've gotten a list of the EASO, so Border Control's requirements for a refugee.
They basically have points.
They say, are they a Christian?
Can they prove that they're a Christian by telling us what it means to be a Christian?
Can they explain to us which part or which country they're in and which city they lived in because these are cities where there's genuine persecution going on?
Can they tell us this?
So they've got a list of requirements.
Advocates Abroad got that list and they just give it straight to migrants and say, all right, we're going to do a session, basically role-playing.
We're going to pretend to be the migrants.
You pretend to be the officers and watch what we do.
And they'll They'll cry.
They'll weep.
They'll say, I'm a Christian who's being persecuted.
And then they'll switch and they say, okay, now you pretend to do that.
And then when you go in front of the officers, don't tell them you're Muslim.
Don't tell them that you're from this city.
Lie about all of it and you'll get in.
So they are literally hurting people.
Genuine refugees, because now these genuine refugees are going to be put on the bottom of a long list of people who shouldn't be brought in as refugees in the first place.
They could have to wait years to get into Europe, because now they're processing all of these fake applications.
Or even the applications of people that would have been initially discovered to be terrorists or ISIS fighters that have now been taught how to get into Europe.
Yeah, that's a bit frightening.
Yeah, absolutely.
Sue, did you try and enter the mindset?
You talked to these advocates.
Yeah.
And what are they like?
Well, I personally was not the one that was undercover.
It was one of my producers, George.
I couldn't do it because they might recognize me.
So we kind of split our team up and I was in contact texting and talking to my producer.
But nice people.
Obviously.
Naive.
Probably quite highly educated as well.
Yes, absolutely.
Naive, though.
And I think there's two sides to this.
One is a genuinely naivety to what they're doing.
They wouldn't want to tell themselves, ooh, I'm potentially letting criminals and terrorists.
No one would want to believe that they're doing that, so they just ignore the potential consequences of their actions.
And then the other side is, I mentioned this in my speech, I don't think our society can see a difference between seeking attention and seeking good anymore.
We've been told what makes us seem like good people.
is to say refugees welcome.
We've been told what makes us seem like good people is to work for one of these NGOs.
And the actual facts of the situation, that's an afterthought.
Who cares about that?
Who cares about what the actual consequence of what you're doing is?
Look at Tom's Shoes, for example.
They had a whole situation where if you bought a pair of shoes, they would then send a pair of shoes to Africa.
They started doing that and what they found was all the local shoe shops were being shut down and it was destroying local industry in Africa.
It's like Bill Gates' mosquito nets for the whole of Africa.
What he did was he killed the mosquito net trade for the local people.
Precisely.
So truth, fact, that's an afterthought.
The actual consequences of our actions are an afterthought because there's no difference between seeming good, seeking attention and wanting to be perceived as good and actually doing good.
Because sometimes actually doing good will make you look like a horrible person.
Sometimes you'll be like, I don't know if you've seen the movie Shane, but like Shane the gunslinger.
So he goes, he used to be a, he used to be like a cowboy and shoot all these people.
And then he decided to settle down and he moved to this little town and he's like, I'm done with my days of behaving like that.
And he sees all these criminals just absolutely destroying the town, wreaking havoc on the local people.
And he says, screw it, goes, and he shoots them all and Kills all the criminals.
And then everyone says, look at the chaos you've caused in our town.
How could you do this?
So he leaves the town and walks off into the distance.
And everyone hates him.
He's seen as the bad guy.
But it's like the unsung hero, right?
So people don't want to be the unsung hero.
They want the credit.
They want to look like the good guy.
They want to get the praise.
So who cares what's actually good?
I want to be the one that looks good.
But it seems to be like a religion for the left.
Open borders.
Yeah, yeah.
It's unquestionable.
It's sacrilege to question that it's a good thing.
So that's problematic, I would say, to use a kind of Rolling Stone type of word.
When you've got, I mean, look, you know, the people listening, the special friend listening to this podcast is going to be saying, go, Lauren, and agree with every point you make.
But you've got these kids coming out of uni, and they all believe as an act of faith.
I mean, it's a part of their religion that open borders are good and people who oppose it are, you know, you're a Nazi, basically.
So how do we counter that?
Yeah, well, I also don't want to even put...
Everything is more gray than I initially perceived it after doing this documentary.
And I'd say that as well for the college kids that come out and do this very silly stuff with groups like Advocates Abroad.
They've...
It's like Pavlovian for them.
If they say far left things, they get good grades.
If they say things that could be deemed offensive, they'll get a bad grade.
They'll get talking to from their friends.
They'll get kicked out of their groups.
And suddenly they get this Pavlovian response where I have to be a leftist.
That's the good thing to do.
I want to be a good person.
I want to be deemed as the best in society.
So I'm going to behave this way.
And they're almost scared to question that because they may lose friends.
They may not be deemed the good guy anymore.
And it's hard to blame people for behaving in that way.
We're human.
You're very sympathetic in the documentary too.
There was the guy you met on the Moroccan border who wanted to be a rapper, didn't he?
Yes.
That's why he agreed to appear in your video.
Oh, it was one of the reasons, I reckon.
Sweet, isn't it?
He's nice.
These are just ordinary guys who have a dream that somewhere over the rainbow is this amazing place where the land of milk and honey.
I mean, it's atavistic, isn't it?
We all believe that the grass is greener on the other side.
So they're coming from Africa.
Do we know where they're all coming from?
Is it sub-Saharan Africa?
It's sub-Saharan Africa for the most part.
There's a lot of people, though.
A lot of Gambians, Senegalese, Sudanese, a lot of them.
We met a young boy, a Gambian, who his big plan was to play soccer for Chelsea.
Right, yeah.
That'll work.
They believed this.
And they...
They believe it because they are seeing the media and they are getting this narrative from the traffickers saying, yeah, you are gonna have a perfect life in Europe.
They literally think of it as paradise.
It is paradise on the other side of the water.
And everyone, we all function based on hope.
What keeps us going when you are in the worst situations in your life, what makes you wake up the next day and move forward is hope for a better tomorrow.
So they almost need this idea of paradise.
But once they get to Europe and that hope is crushed, that's a broken soul to have a dream like that crushed, to have paradise crushed when you've sold your house, you've left your family, you've sold all your worldly possessions and traveled some of these people for years to get to Europe.
And then you get there and you're living under a bridge.
And then they keep hoping.
So that's why they keep moving as well.
They keep moving from country to country.
Maybe if I just get from Italy to France.
Maybe if I just get from France to the UK, to Sweden.
That's why I'm going to go to Calais, because they have to keep believing in that hope.
It's like chasing bad money.
Otherwise, you're going to have a lot of crushed souls.
We all operate that way.
We all operate on hope.
I might not act any differently if I were one of them, born in one of their countries, being told the same lies that they were told.
Absolutely.
And I think, isn't it very important for us on the right to show that we are not evil bastards who don't care about people, just to show the consequences of this kind of lazy thinking?
Tell me about, you were filming, were you not, in the Moroccan mountains where those two Scandinavian girls got decapitated by ISIS. Yeah.
We weren't in the exact mountain range that they were, but we were in a dangerous area of the Moroccan mountains, for sure.
And you're blonde, you're good-looking, you're a target.
Gotta be.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, were you not scared?
I remember when I crossed, it was so hot.
It was so hot when we went to Morocco.
And I was crossing the border, and it's quite a crazy border from the Spanish enclaves to actual Morocco, because there's so many people trying to...
Hide on the buses to get in under the border.
There's so many people being arrested and just being dragged, like proper dragged and kicked by cops all over.
It's an insane border.
I've never seen anything like it.
In fact, when they brought me into the border for questioning, to be like, are you a journalist?
Are you a journalist?
As they handed me my passport, one of the border guards to my left was smashing a guy's face into the bars.
Right.
Oh my gosh.
And what did you say?
You presumably said you weren't a journalist.
I was just like, nope, no one thinks I'm a journalist.
The mainstream media would say I'm just a crazy activist.
Good.
Yeah, that's what you want them to think.
Because they've seen activists before.
I've got my fixer, and we walk in, and as soon as we cross the border, it's literally like going to the Stone Age.
You're going from the First World, and you're stepping straight into the Stone Age.
And I see all of these people...
So I'm in shorts and a tank top.
And this older boy and his young 13-year-old brother look at me, and the older brother just smacks his hands over his brother's eyes because I've got my shoulders showing.
And my fixer looks at me, and he's like, you better put something on.
So I instantly like cover my hair and we get in a cab and get going.
And then, yeah, when we went up to the Moroccan mountains, we had to meet a guy who would show us where the camps were.
And he was so nervous that we were police.
He was waiting and watching us for an hour before he actually met up with us just to see if we had any police come and talk to us.
And then we went to get in the car and our security told us, they were like, okay, whatever you do, make sure he sits in the front seat because we don't want him to be able to kind of grab you and put a knife to your neck or something from the back seat, the driver or the passenger and take you hostage.
So just make sure he sits in the front seat so that we're safe.
Because we also, at this point, we didn't know we were going to go meet someone who was part of the trafficking ring.
We didn't know if we were being brought into a trap.
So if we were just going to roll our car up into a compound and then all get kidnapped and killed or whatever.
So we just wanted to take what little precaution we could.
And as soon as we went to get in the car, he completely refused.
He said, I'm not sitting in the front seat.
I want to sit in the back seat.
And I'm thinking, what possible reason would he have for wanting to sit in the backseat?
Other than to chop your head off.
Other than to chop my head off, right?
So I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, we get the interview and we take this dangerous risk or we just don't get the interview.
And I'm like...
Well, I want the interview.
So I decided to sit in the seat in front of him.
And the entire time we're driving, I'm just like leaned forward, just making sure like totally like folded in half, trying not to lean back in my seat.
Yeah.
While trying, presumably, to make it look natural, like you've always got a crooked neck and a crooked back.
Yes.
Sorry, I'm like the hunchback of Notre Dame here.
Right.
So you got through that interview and you were in Morocco, presumably.
Am I right in thinking that there are these territories within Morocco which belong to Spain and that's what they're trying to get into?
Yes, Sueta and Malila.
Right.
And they've got huge fences around them and Dogs walking between them and guards everywhere and even when you walk around the fences you can see clothing cut up in the barbed wire between the fences because all of these men that are in the camps one of those camps we went to they gather and they wait for more and more men to come from sub-Saharan Africa and come join the camps and they've got them split up by race otherwise they'd fight so they've got them but they all kind of communicate with each other and have camp leaders
that all talk to each other and they decide a date they say all right April 2nd, when we have about a thousand people in this one mountain range area, we're all going to go and storm this side of the wall.
And if we all do it at once, then it's like a game of British Bulldog.
You have so many people and only one person in the field or two or three guards in the field trying to stop them.
At least some of y'all are going to get by.
And it's just that hope, that chance, even though most of them know they're going to have their legs ripped to bits and they were showing us the scars from dogs ripping them off the walls.
They're going to potentially die trying to climb up and fall off onto spikes or whatever.
If some of them get over, as soon as your foot touches Spanish dirt, you get a lawyer and you're good.
That's extraordinary.
Yeah.
You can't be kicked out.
What judgment did you form on that particular issue?
Do you think we're just inviting, we in Europe are inviting our own destruction by being such pusses, or did you think, well, it's fair, they've gone through all that trouble, they should get a lawyer?
It makes no sense that we wouldn't guard our borders, but also, to their credit, the fact that they only have to worry about the border security in Morocco and Turkey and Libya, and they don't have to worry about European border security stopping them, and they get a lawyer, and they have boats picking them up, and they have politicians say come.
Who can blame these migrants for thinking that they're welcome?
Funny you should say that.
As you were describing it, I was thinking, this is a fantastic tribute to human ingenuity and organisation.
The fact that there's some presiding intelligence which knows you cannot mix the Afghans with the Senegalese because they'll kill each other.
And that they build up these camps until they've got enough people to go and storm them.
And presumably women and children are not allowed in the...
No, they're not allowed in the storming camps at all because they'll slow them down.
And they're called storming camps, are they?
They're not called that.
I just called them that.
I think the world has now had that coinage from you.
Storming camps.
So...
Presumably, there are not many women and children migrants, are there?
No.
Where are they?
Are they left behind, never to come with a level on?
It's a tough and it's an expensive journey.
So first of all, if you're actually a poor and destitute person that needs help, you're probably not going to be making the journey from Morocco to Spain, which, by the way, is the biggest pathway to get to Europe right now.
Since the Italian ports have been shut down, now most people are going through Morocco.
You can't really afford that if you're actually destitute.
So it's people that would actually have a home and a job within Sub-Saharan Africa that are making the trip.
But it is a difficult trip.
So as a woman or a child, you're definitely going to be in a very small minority in these groups.
And you'd only be in the boat camps.
You would not be in these storming camps.
So this is another point.
I don't know whether you have time to address this in your film, but these are the cleverer people, the wealthier people from these countries, leaving their country behind.
The country needs these people.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
So it's a tragedy for the countries that are being abandoned, as well as for the Europeans who are having to live with these unskilled labour criminals and stuff.
Well, I was speaking with the MEP, Janice Atkinson, who invited me to the European Union, and she was saying...
Oh, I've just had a complete mind blank.
Oh, I get this all the time.
Because I've got Lyme disease, which occasionally in three-week cycles, these bugs eat your brain.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have sometimes complete brain fog.
It's a nightmare.
So it doesn't matter at all.
Janice Atkinson, I'll chat away while you're waiting to remember what your thought was.
No, just give me the last sentence you were saying.
This is bizarre.
Janice invited me over as well.
She's doing a fantastic job.
We were talking about the loss of the countries of the migrants.
Yes, that's exactly.
I don't know where my brain went there for a minute to space.
But yes, Janice Atkinson, the MEP who most kindly invited me here to the European Union, she was saying when she went to Cali and was speaking to these migrants, She was asking what their careers and jobs were, and some of them were saying, I was a teacher back in my home country.
I taught chemistry or physics.
That is so sad.
And it's like, yeah, we don't...
She told them, we don't need you in Europe.
They need you in your home country.
We need teachers in Africa.
We need people that are going to prop the country up.
The brain drain is one of the most tragic things that has happened to third world countries...
It's been absolutely horrific for them.
It's heartbreaking.
And now his name slipped my mind.
An Oxford professor who is ahead of thinking on this issue.
The British policy towards refugees and towards migrants is actually, particularly from places like Syria, is not to, say, come on in, wir schaffen das, like Angela Merkel does, but to keep them in countries near to their country of origin, like but to keep them in countries near to their country of origin, like Jordan, and hold them in camps where they can wait till the civil war ends and they can Precisely.
It isn't one of the great tragedies of the European Union and Europe generally that we have a situation where young Italians and young Spanish and young Greeks, there's no work for them, so they have to move to find work.
The European Union has created that problem, and in the same way, we've now got these young Africans and people from the Middle East who can't have a future in their own country because they're being lured by this issue.
These chimeras were lured by this fantasy that they have about the paradise that awaits them.
And it's all wrong.
So what should we be doing more of, do you think, to stop this bad shit happening?
Well, we need to stop encouraging it.
I think someone who's saved just thousands and thousands of lives is Matteo Salvini.
I know that sounds shocking and horrific to leftists, but he has saved so many people by just saying, you know what?
No, we are not going to allow human trafficking over into Italy.
We are not going to allow people who come here legally.
You can apply legally to come here.
But do not take these dinghies over here, drown in the ocean, and come to a country that can't accept you and you don't have ID that is overwhelmed already.
And part of that as well is not just an act for the preservation of his own country, but it's telling them the truth.
Telling them the truth.
This isn't a country that is going to accept you.
Because when they end up in Italy, they end up leaving anyways because they can't be processed.
They realize it's, quite frankly, just crap to be there.
So then they use their hope and try to go to France and then try to go to Sweden.
So if you say these countries aren't going to accept you, which is true anyways, even the ones that purport that they will...
Well, these people aren't going to chase this dream.
We need to just tell the truth, quite frankly, and do what countries have been doing for centuries, and that is just defend your border.
These traffickers, these people, if you talk to people on the other side of the border in Morocco and in Turkey, they look at us and they say, what are you doing?
The traffickers are laughing because they get the money from it.
But we interviewed a Turkish farmer at like 3am who was in one of the coastal cities that constantly saw traffickers and migrants going through.
And he was telling me, like, I don't know what Europeans are doing.
We need more border security in Turkey, he was saying.
These migrants going through our town, they're breaking our windows to charge their cell phones in our houses.
It's been disastrous for us.
We need more border security here.
You guys need more border security in Europe.
Any sane country.
You don't see the Japanese being criticized for not bringing in tons and tons and tons of people.
You don't see African countries or Arab countries being criticized for not bringing in tons and tons and tons of people.
Everyone gets to protect their borders except European nations for some reason.
It's not racist.
It's not a horrific thing to do.
Sure, have legal migration.
No problem.
But you have to have sovereignty to have a country.
Yes.
Well, but...
I mean, Mattia Salvini, how many people in sub-Saharan Africa, you're saying the message gets through quite quickly?
Oh yeah, because the business is shut down instantly.
Because the people that keep the business going on are these NGOs that pick up the boats that won't make it over.
These are not ships.
The traffickers send these boats out saying, you are 100% going to get over, knowing full well those ships aren't going to make it there.
And the only chance their business is going to still go is if the NGOs pick them up.
So they will not send the ships if the NGOs aren't there.
So the NGOs aren't there anymore?
In Italy, the ships are being impounded and shut down and stopped.
But in Spain, I imagine they're still there.
They're still operating, absolutely, yeah.
They call them salvation ships.
Spain at the moment is the weakest link.
Yes.
This is the problem with a borderless entity like the European Union.
This is the problem with the Schengen zone.
The Schengen, yeah.
All it takes is one weak link.
All it takes is one left-wing government with those open border attitudes and the whole of Europe is stuffed.
And you know what's fascinating is the only reason that there are some routes being shut down in Spain, like the Tangier route to Tarifa is being shut down.
That's like the closest route right across from Gibraltar.
It's because the Moroccans are shutting it down.
There are Moroccan coast guards shutting it down.
How bizarre is that?
That Turkey, Libya, and Morocco are doing more for European border security than Europeans themselves.
It blows my mind.
Do you know why they're doing that?
They just don't want the refugees in their country, I suppose.
Well, they realize that it's a complete mockery of their borders, as well as they've got a huge trafficking ring that they have to deal with as well.
And they've got Men who are completely undocumented living all over their towns and their streets across the borders of Malilla and Soweta.
Sorry.
I'm very bad at these words.
It's disastrous.
It's spelt C-E-U-T-A, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's disastrous.
So now the police have tried to get them off the streets because it's making it even more of a Stone Age country than it was before.
And also, to be fair, Morocco has a thriving tourist industry.
Yes, they do.
The tourists don't want bloody...
I'm not going to lie.
There's some beautiful...
Morocco is beautiful.
And the Moroccan people, a lot of them are lovely.
And their cuisine is fantastic.
Wonderful food.
They have lovely hotels and cities.
But if you have people all over the streets causing crime that have...
And they do.
Migrants do cause crime because when you're in desperate situations, you don't have money, you don't have a job, and you need money to pay your trafficker or your camp leader...
Well, sometimes crime is going to be your only option.
So it's causing chaos in Morocco and for the Moroccan people and the Moroccan government.
And if they can manage to shut down the trafficking rings, then they've got a lot less problems as well.
But the Europeans aren't helping them at all.
They're doing no...
No help whatsoever by having these boats go out and allowing them to just step foot in the country and not be deported.
If they've thrown away their passports, where do you deport them to?
That's why they throw them away.
So how do you solve that problem?
Can you even solve that problem?
Well, you can tell them and be quite explicit.
If you don't have a passport, we can't process you because that is the truth.
You can't be processed.
You can't be offered a spot in this country.
You're going to be living on the streets.
You're not going to be able to get a job.
I seem to recall that was Australia's policy.
Yeah, so Australia, they stopped the boats.
They stopped the incentive to come over.
And they said, if you land in Australia, we can't offer you anything because you have no identification, this and that.
And the boats have stopped.
Zero.
Didn't they get deported somewhere like Nauru or something?
They had islands for them, like Christmas Island and stuff.
Just going back a bit, your first big film venture was going to South Africa and reporting on the white genocide, the murder of white farmers.
Did that make a difference?
I think that our film Farmlands has had a massive impact.
I mean, it's more of a warning of what I think unfortunately is inevitable to come in South Africa.
But if someone has to keep the history books, that's what a journalist is supposed to be.
They're supposed to keep a journal of the things that happened in a time so that in the future we can look back and see what occurred.
And the mainstream media were not keeping any such journal of what was going on in South Africa, so we hoped to do that.
And it's got over 2 million views with the accompanying ministries, over 6 million.
Trump tweeted about it.
It was on huge shows like Michael Savage, one of the top radio shows in America, discussed the documentary.
Of course, you had Tucker Carlson talking about it.
I don't know if we directly impacted that, but I think we certainly helped it.
Bring this into the news cycle and at least warn people.
Like, there are governments, I know people don't want to admit it, but there are governments that are biased against white people.
And maybe this hyper-Marxism of...
Always, always trying to, we have to have this many of this race and this gender in our workforce, which they did in South Africa.
They said, if you've only got 10% white population in your city, you can only have 10% white workers.
They ended up laying off all these excellent engineers and excellent employees.
And now they've got massive crisis in their energy industry.
They've got like a huge water crisis.
It's just caused complete chaos in the country.
And now to the point where they have built up so much hatred and resentment against white people that it's gotten to murder, complete and utter, just horrific murders.
I liked that brief potted history of the development of anti-white prejudice in South Africa, because I'm old enough to remember.
I mean, you're a mere child of how old are you?
I'm 23.
I'm old enough to remember a time when people would say, the thing you've got to understand is that South Africa is never going to go the way of Zimbabwe.
There are these various structures there.
There's so much investment there.
It has a thriving economy and they have a sensible relationship between...
They're not so stupid as to get rid of the people who would keep businesses going.
The farms you visited, I mean, no black people are even interested in farming in these areas, are they?
Well, I mean, a lot of the workers on these farms would be...
They're ecstatic to have their jobs.
They're happy that they're working on these farms.
And you're absolutely right in saying that when they confiscate these farms and...
It's usually done with a corrupt government.
It's just nepotism.
So they end up handing off these farms to people who have no idea what they're doing.
And in fact, in a lot of the black tribal homelands, which is an area of South Africa that white people literally can't live in or buy.
It's just for black people.
Some of the farms there, they're so poorly farmed that they've destroyed the land forever forever.
If you have animals that are overfeeding in areas or you're planting too much without doing proper crop rotation and allowing the ground to get fertilized again, what happens is these massive rivets are caused.
It looks like a giant canyon almost and the earth just cracks and gets so dried up and it just collapses in itself and it will literally take...
Tens of thousands of years to go back to normal.
So by allowing people who don't know how to farm to take over these farms, you're getting rid of farms that are feeding millions and millions, literally millions and millions of people, black and white, starvation doesn't care about your skin color, are going to potentially die because of this.
That's so sad.
That's so sad.
It's tragic.
Yeah, it is.
I've travelled a lot in Africa and I know how important it is.
They used to call Nairobi half London and then you got to South Africa and it's the closest thing to Europe and Africa in a continent which is otherwise pretty messed up.
And if you've got that sort of Europe in the south of Africa turning into just another African failed state, it ain't going to be good.
And there are people there that realize this that aren't just the victims yet.
So there are people that realize...
I was speaking to a woman from Zimbabwe that came over and she was telling me, if we continue with this expropriation bill...
I don't know where I'm going to go.
I moved here from Zimbabwe because my family became poor and destitute after they kicked all the farmers out and now I've come to South Africa to find more prosperity and now they're doing the same thing here and I don't know what I'm going to do.
I don't know where I'm going to flee to next.
And there are a few black politicians that are within the government right now that are saying, are you mad?
Are you guys completely insane?
Can you not see what happened in Zimbabwe?
And unfortunately, they seem to be lone voices in a sea of people that are far more concerned with the outrage culture within South Africa that just says, get out, whitey.
Well, tell me, can you go back to South Africa now?
I wouldn't.
You'd be presented in Gratia and probably you might be under threat.
Yeah, I wouldn't go back.
This is what I mean.
I'm trying to take a little more of a long-considered approach to things so that I don't have so many giant red X's on my world map.
But even my long-considered approach to South Africa may have added another X to that.
Well, it sounds like...
But Caitlin was telling me that you are sort of trying to find a...
A softer path, which is going to reach out to more people, which I applaud.
But how do you do that without diluting your message?
Well, I found it's interesting.
With Borderless, I didn't have to dilute the message because the message was more gray than I thought it was before.
That's just the truth.
Not all of these migrants are invaders intent on destroying the Western world.
It can be fun to portray it that way, and it can certainly rile people up and hype things up.
But the truth is, we're all victims of a very messed up...
Basically business.
Business in the form of selling people that has been held up and propped up by politicians that are more interested in being popular and getting attention than they are in truth.
And we're all victims of it.
We're all victims of people trying to make money.
Bad men trying to make money.
No matter what your skin colour is.
And apparently you've mastered Instagram.
You've...
You've got a sideline as a kind of fashion icon now.
Oh, yes.
Now I'm a fashion icon, but I don't dress myself.
My producers do.
I don't know how to dress.
Do you not?
Are you really shit at fashion?
Oh, I literally had a closet of just black tank tops.
I'm like the Steve Jobs, but in a female body, and it was just black tank tops and jeans, because that was easy!
But it horrified my producers.
They were disgusted.
Can I mention the fact that they're gay?
Is that allowed?
Because I think it helps, having gay guys sorting out your wardrobe.
Well, you know, it was like one of those scenes from a chick flick where the montage music starts and we all walk into a store and they're throwing clothes over the dressing room and I pop out and they're all like, I can't believe she was hiding this all this time!
So, queer eye for the straight chick.
And your outfit today, for example, is that your own devising?
No, the boys chose this in Paris.
It's very good.
Thank you.
What are those trousers called?
If I looked at these trousers, they're very high fashion.
If I looked at them, I would think, that makes me look like Oliver Twist.
I am not going to buy that.
I'll wear a black tank top and jeans.
But they made me try it on and it actually looks quite cute.
Because they're sort of cropped at the bottom, aren't they?
They're cropped at the bottom.
We see a bit of bare leg, which is probably a good thing.
A bit of ankle.
That's pretty unacceptable within some countries.
Yes, you don't want to go back to Morocco.
With the ankle showing.
No, but this is good.
You've got to...
I mean, look, PewDiePie.
PewDiePie manages to get...
I mean, God, he would be...
Even though it's nice having Lauren Southern on the interview, it would be good to get PewDiePie, wouldn't it?
He manages to get down with the kids...
Get down with the kids.
And get sort of, is that a now discredited phrase?
Excellent.
Hello fellow kids.
That he reaches out to people and he shows that there is another way, other than being an SJW, that you can be likeable and funny and you don't need to be woke.
And that is clearly the path for you as well.
I hope so.
Yeah, I try.
I'm a bit of a socially awkward person.
Oh, are you?
Oh, yes.
I'm just pretending.
This is all an act that I can actually public speak and do all these things.
I mean, I believe what I say, but...
Oh, no, no.
I'm super awkward when I'm in normal conversation.
Oh, are you?
Sorry.
I didn't...
I can't dress myself.
I'm super awkward.
Honestly, public speaking terrifies me.
I mean, do you think maybe you're on the spectrum even?
Or do you have...
Caitlin is laughing so hard.
Do you think you have male qualities that...
Do I? I'm, you know what, we'll just say, I'm on the excellent spectrum.
Right, right, right.
But, okay, and finally, what do you, are your parents happy with what's happened to you, with where you've gone?
Do they want you to get a proper job?
Sorry.
No, they are very supportive of what I do.
But I think it certainly stresses them out a bit when they get calls in the middle of the night from me saying, Hey, Mom and Dad, I might be going to jail for three months in Turkey, just letting you know they're about to take my phone.
Love you.
Bye.
Yes, because they're of the generation that will have seen Midnight Express.
Correct.
And they know exactly what Turkish jails like.
Correct.
So that probably gives them a little bit of anxiety.
They were not very impressed with that when I came home.
Right.
But I didn't go to jail, so it doesn't matter.
Well, if you were my daughter, I have to say, I would be shitting myself about your career.
I mean, I would be very proud, but I would be worried about you.
And I want nice things to happen to you and for you to carry on being...
Aw, thank you.
No, no, I do.
I do.
You're doing great work.
Not very many people want nice things to happen to me, so...
Am I missing some aspect of you that I've forgotten to mention, that there is a kind of evil Lauren Southern?
What have you done that's objectively bad?
A lot of people seem to think so.
Well, apparently I drowned a lot of migrants with a flare gun in the Mediterranean.
I didn't know I did it.
I may have been sleepwalking, but there are a lot of people who think that.
Tell me, what do you mean?
Oh, so basically I was involved in this activist thing a few years ago and I held up, I was filming it.
They were blocking a ship called the Aquarius, which actually has become like a huge issue in Italy right now.
Salvini has impounded it completely and they've been charged with dropping like 24 tons of toxic waste into the Mediterranean.
But that's beside the point.
I was trying to film Generation Identity blocking this ship, and I needed light or I couldn't get the shot, so I lit a flare so that we could make sure you could see the boat and the ship.
When that went out to the media, it was Will Sommer, I believe, who said, Lauren Southern just fired a flare at a refugee rescue boat.
And a bunch of other people picked this up.
All these journalists, even people on the right, saying...
And it just kept getting more and more out of control.
People saying, Lauren Southern just fired a flare at a refugee boat.
Lauren Southern just fired a flare at a drowning migrant.
Lauren Southern just fired...
One Italian paper said, I fired a torpedo.
That would have been cool.
Sorry, I would have quite respected you.
You know, quite evil, but it's cool evil.
But you didn't fire.
It was literally a handheld flare.
Like, it didn't leave my hand.
It didn't go anywhere.
But they claimed that I was literally, like, firing...
Flare guns to set this ship on fire and kill immigrants.
There were no immigrants in the boat.
Zero.
It was a handheld flare, but it just kind of got out of control.
And I still, to this day, get tweets constantly at me from people saying, weren't you the girl that shot a flare gun at a bunch of immigrants?
Like, it's bizarre.
Can you just clear something up for me?
Who is Will Summer?
He writes for the...
Some DC newspaper.
I mean, presumably he's about...
He's just a left-wing, one of those verified journalists.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, verified.
He writes for The Hill.
That tells me all I need to know.
And are you, presumably, are you off...
You've been driven off social media of most kinds, I imagine.
Surprisingly, no.
I've been driven off Patreon and Stripe, and I've been banned and definitely had timeouts on Facebook and Twitter, but somehow I've not been completely driven off, so that's nice.
What was Patreon's excuse for driving you off?
They said that I was killing immigrants, too.
Well, come on.
Actually, that's fair enough.
If you have been killing...
I think maybe you should fess up now.
If you have been killing it...
Actually, it's not a laughing matter.
Hello?
Yeah, okay.
I think this could be the end of your career.
Well, that's happened too many times before.
When asked whether she killed immigrants, she laughed and laughed and laughed.
Yeah.
And isn't it ironic, as you Canadians would say, isn't it ironic that the person who exposed your full evil was a journalist who writes for Breitbart?
I mean, isn't that awful?
I'm glad that you got the exclusive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But actually, can I tell you something?
Not that you don't know this already, but the SJWs are increasingly unhinged, and they have the most extraordinary capacity...
To home in on any non-story, any facet of your character.
I mean, for example, were you to go into the elevator or lift, as I would call it, in the European Parliament now and break wind, probably a story would emerge that you'd poisoned an elevator full of people trying to...
The other day, get this, I wrote a piece, a really, you know, bread and butter piece about the World Trade Organization.
So get this, so in my piece I thought, what is the World Trade Organization?
So I went to the WTO website and I just kind of copied out what it said.
I mean, I may have changed the odd word, whether I did or didn't, it doesn't really matter, I don't care, because it's It's the World Trade Organization website, and it's there to help you discover what the fuck the World Trade Organization does.
And somebody on the internet said, I think he just plagiarized that paragraph.
And I'm thinking, what?
And somebody else said, yeah, I think he did.
I think he plagiarized that paragraph from the World Trade Organization.
It's like a copy, literally a rip-off, uncredited.
He didn't put it in inverted commas.
He didn't put it in quote marks.
He just quoted it, unattributed.
And I was thinking, what kind of insane world do we live in?
Where if you take a self-description from the WTO website, that you are somehow impinging on the creative rights of whichever low-level grunt it was that was in charge of copywriting for the organization.
And I can see this one escalating a bit like, you know, Lauren Southern kills the refugees with her flare gun.
It's going to be, James Dellingpole is even worse than Johan Hari or any plagiarist ever.
He is the king of journalistic plagiarists because he didn't attribute the self-description from the WTO. That's how the left rolls.
Yeah, it snowballs.
And to the point where it just becomes laughable and you can't control it.
You just have to accept it.
So if people ask me about it, I just totally joke.
I'll be like, oh yes, all of those immigrants I killed this morning.
All of them.
But it gets to a point, though, where I have been joking like that for so long that sometimes I forget normal people are actually freaked out and believe me.
So it started to bother me to an extent where I'm like, oh, maybe I should try to clear this up.
I did not kill people.
It's just so ridiculous that...
This is the problem, that we find it ridiculous and we laugh about it.
But I know, every person I know in our game, Stefan Molyneux, Katie Hopkins, or whatever, there's a kind of, there's a sort of stigma that has been successfully attached to them by the SJWs.
And even people who might be open to our side of the argument, they have at the back of their mind, hang on a second, Patreon wouldn't have got rid of Lauren Southern if you hadn't done something pretty bad.
That's the problem.
We have been anathematized.
I can't remember what my bad thing is.
I'm sure I've done some bad things, but I'm just saying, I understand what you're going through, sister.
We're all in the same boat.
Thanks, sis.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for being on the DellingPod.
This has been very lovely.
Thank you for having me.
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