Survivor's Stephen Fishbach on his New Book About Reality TV and Its Cultural Impact
Steven Fishbach, a Survivor two-time finalist and reality TV insider, reveals how casting directors sought a "nerdy nerd" for Season 9 in 2008 via Facebook, bypassing traditional fame-driven contestants. His new book, Escape, dissects reality TV’s cultural grip—from its 73M-viewer peak in 2000 to COVID-era lockdowns fueling primal jungle bonds—while exposing its exploitation, where producers weaponize contestants’ delusions (e.g., voting out "Glenn") for entertainment. Even Survivor’s rare uplifting moments, like Sari Fields or an autistic contestant’s authenticity, pale next to sensationalism, mirroring broader societal trends from Trump’s Apprentice-to-politics pivot to journalism’s attention economy. Fishbach’s analysis frames reality TV as a reflection of deeper societal cravings for connection and spectacle, reshaping media consumption forever. [Automatically generated summary]
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All right, I am super excited about our guest today who I've been looking forward to speaking with in this context for a long time.
Reality TV's Magnetic Pull00:15:48
It may seem like it's a topic a little off the beaten path from what we normally cover, but actually I think with a little bit of examination, you'll see not only is it relevant, but relevant in a way that brings a lot of unique insight.
My guest is Steven Fishback, known for lots of things.
He is a two-time contestant on the reality TV show on CBS News on CBS, Survivor.
He got to the finals of one of those seasons.
Didn't get a lot of votes.
Didn't get any votes, actually, but nonetheless made the finals a big accomplishment.
Also has become just a very influential and well-liked voice within reality TV podcasts, ones that are very popular.
And the thing we wanted to talk to him about today is his new book.
He's written a novel that relates to reality TV, but also a lot of the themes that make reality TV and its emergence so interesting.
The novel is Escape.
I have read it.
I've actually been trying.
We've been trying to set this up for a few weeks.
So happy to finally do it.
Already a national bestseller on the USA Today and other lists.
Stephen, it's so great to see you in this format.
Thanks for joining me.
This is such a tremendous honor.
I'm sort of honored.
Like I'm incredulous and a little dazzled to be here.
So thank you for having me.
Yeah, we were joking before we began that I needed a few minutes to kind of orient myself because I'm used to listening to you.
I do listen.
I think I've talked before that my secret vice is I do watch Survivor.
I find it super fascinating.
And the only podcast I listen to is the one you're on after each episode where you analyze it.
So actually talking to you directly, even though we've talked by text and the like, is still something I'm getting used to.
So I'm going to make you talk most of the time so that my weirdness is not super visible.
All right.
Let me begin.
You know, it is interesting.
I do, you know, reality TV is something you obviously, if you're an American, you don't, you can't avoid even if you want to.
It's become such a gigantic part of our cultural discourse of just of media, of entertainment, of television, really like this dominant force.
And having watched it, as I just confessed to having done, there are a lot of people who I look at and think, oh yeah, this is obviously like the type of person who's just made for reality TV, who would obviously do anything to get on television.
Reality TV is their best avenue in because of how they behave, how they conduct themselves.
And then there are other people, not many, but some who end up not just being on reality TV, but doing quite well.
You think, wow, this is not really a person I would think would be on reality TV.
And that's definitely a thought that I think I and a lot of people have about you.
And not only did you go on reality TV, but you've also kind of made it a career.
You've worked in TV on it.
You do podcasts and commentaries on it.
Now you've written this novel about it.
What is this call, this attraction that reality TV has for you?
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, I never expected to be on reality television either.
And in fact, when I was first recruited for Survivor, I literally was one of those people who did not even know that it was on the air.
But there was something so beguiling about this opportunity to step into the jungle and play this incredible game.
And I feel like that is such a like a call, like you called it, like, you know, a call that's sort of like relevant for people today, where we're all kind of living this mediated existence.
We're all, you know, in offices, you know, constantly beset by screens in this idea of being able to sort of step into this kind of primal environment, you know, build shelter, search for food, and at the same time, play this like very fascinating social strategy game, which was sort of, of course, my, like my initial kind of the appeal initially for me, I think was just really compelling on a human level.
Like, what was that process?
Because I think the perception that a lot of people have of reality TV contestants is these people who just go to cattle calls, like are super desperate to get on TV, will do anything for it.
You're not one of those people.
They actually came to you.
And so my question has always been, I guess, this is a great opportunity to ask you, like, why you?
Why did they decide like, hey, they looked at Steven Fishback?
They somehow you attracted their attention in a way that you didn't try to do.
And then suddenly they were calling you to come onto the show.
Like, what was that process?
What happened there?
Yeah.
So I got an email in my Facebook inbox in 2008, like, hey, Stephen, do you want to be on Survivor?
Let's make it happen.
So Survivor, I think most reality shows, but Survivor at the time, especially cast in terms of archetypes, right?
There was like the hot alpha male.
That's obviously what I was.
There was like, you know, there's like the beach beauty.
There's like the crazy older lady.
And they had cast their season, season 18 in Token Chinese, Brazil.
And they had cast a nerd, but they had decided he wasn't nerdy enough.
And so my friend who worked in casting was like, I know, I know a real nerd for you.
I've got, I've got a nerdy nerd.
So they reached out to me.
And my initial impulse was absolutely not.
You know, I had worked in television and I knew, you know, you can look like an absolute dolt.
Like it's literally in the contract.
We can make you look stupid on television, you know?
But then I started to watch this show and see this brilliant social strategy game that they're playing in this environment in the jungle.
And I thought to myself, you know, I love social strategy games.
I could win this.
Now I was wrong, but I was like, almost right.
I was close to being right.
Yeah.
I mean, you did, I mean, I was joking at the beginning about how you got no votes, which, you know, is something that you can be self-effacing about, but getting to the end of Survivor, not just in terms of like the survivability of it, the physical part, although that is very difficult.
It was, you know, it's now 26 days, but it was 39 days when the two times you did it.
But also, you know, to navigate all of just like the vipers and the social part of the game that I assume is what you like best requires a lot of different skills.
I mean, people can get there kind of at the end almost through luck or they get dragged there because of the perception that nobody will respect them.
That wasn't your case.
You really had to fight continuously throughout your season to get to the end.
And I assume you felt like you had proven to yourself that you could do something that probably previously you were unsure that you could do or even assume that you couldn't.
Like, did you get that sense of personal accomplishment?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, even though I didn't take away the million dollars or the title of Soul Survivor, you know, I did, you know, you step out there just like praying you're not the first person voted out.
And then when you sort of get your feet under you, you think, well, well, hopefully I can make the merge, which is this point in survivor where all the different tribes come together and sort of compete as one.
And then the fact that I was able to navigate this and get to the very end with an alliance partner of mine, it really did give me a sense of competence.
And especially like the surviving in the elements, you know, I do think that that contributed to it too.
Like, you know, I grew up in Los Angeles.
I worked in New York in a corporate environment.
So like the fact that I could make fire in a rainstorm, you know, and like go like catch fish.
It was just like enormously empowering as a human being.
So I want to get into the book and like sort of the themes that you intended to provoke and give insight into.
But before we do that, just tell me or tell the audience, I kind of already know what else you've done in reality TV, because it's not just appearing on Survivor that has been your touchstone for understanding how this medium works enough to write a book.
Like, what else have you done to kind of inform yourself, to give yourself insight about what reality TV is?
Yeah, so I worked on television.
I worked at MTV for most of my career and logo TV.
So I was on the network side.
I also worked for a reality TV producers trade group and I've just freelanced for a lot of reality TV companies.
I used to write these things called story Bibles, which feature in the book as well, where literally in advance of a season airing, you know, or even in advance of it being picked up by a network, someone will like write up a script of like, here are the characters.
Here's the episode breakdown, kind of like plotting out what is supposed to happen episode by episode.
These two characters are going to go off and do this thing.
These other characters are going to go do this thing.
So, and that's like part of what I love about the whole idea of reality television.
It's part of what I wanted to evoke in the book is this sense of like, it's real people's lives.
It's playing out in the most chaotic environment you can imagine.
And yet, to some degree, it's scripted in advance.
Now, that doesn't end up like directly impacting you, but there is this vision of the show that the producers want to happen and in fact need to happen because that's what they pitched the network.
Like that's what is going to, you know, get them a season two.
You know, I was thinking about this like in preparation talking to you.
And it was like one of the things that as I was reading your book, I was thinking about a lot as well.
There's, I think there's like, there's, there's this kind of historical narrative that reality TV really exploded with the advent of Survivor, the finale of the first season back in 2000.
Like had Super Bowl numbers.
I think it was like 73 million people watched.
Obviously, this was before the internet really offered a lot of options, before even cable news was giving tons of different choices.
So the network still, you know, carried a huge weight, but still, I mean, it was a gigantic hit.
And obviously, when network TV executives see something working that well, they're going to start replicating it.
And that kind of gave birth to the reality TV industry.
There were some like reality TV shows at MTV, like in the 90s.
I think like some on cable that were kind of precursors.
But, you know, the reality is, is that there's always been this reality TV or reality component to our entertainment.
I was, you know, I think like probably the single biggest entertainment event in my lifetime was the OJ Simpson case, you know, the murders, the fleeing and the white Bronco, the trial, like not scripted at all, pure reality, something that, you know, compelled people's attention in a way that scripted films or scripted television can't.
There's obviously something.
And even now, you see this like proliferation of real crime that's incredibly popular on the internet.
Like, what is it about this notion that this isn't fiction?
This is not contrived.
This is really based in reality that attracts people so intensely when it comes to the desire to be entertained.
Yeah, it's such a rich subject.
And I think there's so one of the things I think is that you get to have your own opinion, you know, as it's sort of playing out.
You know, with a scripted TV show, you're being told, this is the villain, like this is the hero.
Here's, you know, what, you know, what you should be feeling, what you should be rooting for at any moment.
But I think with like reality TV and kind of too, with the OJ trial, as it progressed, like we were all sort of like deciding as it went on, you know, what our perspective was, like, which of the witnesses we felt were compelling.
Like, how did we as a society, you know, feel about Kato?
You know, you get to kind of participate.
And it's interesting, like, even when you watch like a craft show, like a cooking show on television or Project Runway, you get to feel like an informed decision maker.
Like, oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have made that choice with that dish, you know?
And I think that's part of the appeal.
Like with Survivor, for example, you get to choose, this is my favorite character.
This is the hero.
Like, this is who I associate with.
It's not necessarily like forced on you in that respect.
And of course, too, I just think like the very fact of it being like authentic or having the illusion of authenticity, you know, it feels like you're seeing a glimpse into something that this sort of, you know, facade can never really portray, you know, accurately, like both in terms of like people doing sort of like devious and unexpected things, but also even in terms of like the sincerity that you see on a reality show, you know, you can see emotional moments on a reality show, like on Survivor.
These two guys who were adversaries, like bonding over the fact that they had both lost their moms.
You know, if it was on a scripted show it would feel maudlin, it would feel like you know uh, you know simplistic, but because it's real, it's like the genuineness of this emotion is just so powerful.
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I want to delve into a little bit is like things don't just become cultural phenomenon by accident.
They, they reflect something about the culture and if something really resonates it's typically because people are craving something they're not otherwise getting from societal connection or from the broader culture.
In the event of reality tv, and just how intensely, like insanely popular it's become still, you know, 25 years later it's, I mean, Survivor itself is like insanely popular after all this time.
But so many of these other shows as well that have become dominant in the culture.
And you know you're right, it is interesting, like if you watch a film, you read a novel, you watch tv show, like a scripted tv show, you can like have opinions about whether it's good or bad, about what the motivate, but the way in which people viciously debate and like intensely and passionately debate, you know, did this contestant deserve to win.
Did production do the right thing here?
Who's the villain?
Who act?
I mean, they inspire so much intense emotions, like huge communities and podcasts and all that noise that scripted television or even film can't like.
What is it that that is tapping into in in the culture like this this, why?
Why do we have this desire to feel like we're part of something that only reality tv can give?
I, I think you're right, and I think we've all just been exhausted by this sense of we're being produced all the time or, like you know, like everything we see is mediated and I think that was obviously a big, you know, theme in politics too right, this sense that like everything was so scripted, everything was so orchestrated, that like, when you finally get a glimpse of something authentic, you just feel like such this, this sense of like relief almost, because it's like so unusual um, and I definitely think that was true with reality, I mean the fact that people make mistakes right,
like you can see a mistake on reality tv like that's incredible, like everything is going well for this person, and then they screw it all up with some like enormous blunder, they say the wrong thing at the wrong time, you know, like that doesn't happen unscripted.
You know like the hero doesn't suddenly like get an injury and get medevaced off the page.
You know like that.
Or have like really severe stomach problems on television yes yes, I have severe gastrointestinal distress, as happened to me.
Like you just don't get that and it's like it's funny and it makes you laugh.
But it's also like it's just like the reality of our lives and so like, while in the one sense, like you know, a reality show is structured by the producers into like a three act narrative that's compelling, like that is in the context of these like real events happening that you just literally couldn't see in another format, in a scripted format.
Yeah, you know it's interesting.
I uh, what I, when I wanted to have you on, I wanted to have you on because I love your book, because I, you know i've harassed you over the years to make make you talk to me about survivor and give me insight.
Um, because I I feel you have such a an interesting perspective, but also um, you know, I I have it did make me start thinking about, like what is it in our culture spiritually politically psychologically, emotionally, that has caused this to resonate so much?
I I started off saying it's like a secret vice of mine that I watch survivor, that I almost never tell anyone.
And then I started thinking like why is that?
Like I could justify it with very, you know pretentious, pseudo intellectual language, like it's a social experiment.
You take all these people who are from different walks of life and you put them together in these very extreme situations and see what they're willing to do for a million dollars all of which is totally true, like I think that is real.
But also there's a there's other aspects to it besides that kind of like high-minded appeal.
And I think one of the reasons why people like me say oh, it's a secret vice, we don't talk about the fact that we like it is because it's taken on this kind of tawdry, you know sort of primitive component to it.
Like it has this feel of very cheap, craven entertainment.
And I think part of that is reflected in one of the main characters of your book, this kind of desperation for fame.
Like the one of the characters that's under your book is somebody who kind of had this peak of fame and admiration for being uh on on a reality show and years later start trying to cling to that fame, rediscover it.
I saw this interview with a very famous reality tv contestant, Lisa Rena, who I guess became famous from the Housewife series.
She was just on trader.
Desire for Human Connection00:08:40
She has a new book out, so she's everywhere and she gave an interview NEW YORK Times and and she's talking about reality tv and she said, look, let's face it, the truth is, whether people admit it or not, everyone wants to be famous.
Like it just feeds off this desperation for people to want to be, to want to acquire fame, to want to be known, to want to be seen.
Now we've always kind of had that, like in Hollywood.
How many people, millions of people have you know gone to Hollywood and subjected themselves to all sorts of indignities to just be known, have a career in film or or whatever?
Those are very notorious.
There's something about reality tv show and I think our contemporary culture that makes it different, in kind of tone, like it seems more desperate but also more important for people to just find a way to be seen and famous.
I'm wondering if you think that too and, if so, what explains that?
Yeah, I think you know well.
First of all, I think everyone is sort of competing for that, even whether now, like you know whether or not you're on reality television.
Like we're all kind of like curating this vision of our lives now on social media, you know, on whether it's like the pictures you're posting on X, or like your, your witty aphorisms that you're posting or sorry, the pictures you're posting on instagram, or your Witter witty aphorisms on X, like everyone is trying to like present this like sort of like curated vision of themselves as be, you know, to get those likes, to get those retweets so, and it does like it just feels good um and, of course, like the more that people are celebrated, you know, the more that you see other people getting those retweets,
the more that like you do see like people having this, like being celebrated, like the more you crave it for yourself.
Like that becomes the.
You know that becomes the currency.
You know I wasn't somebody who wanted to be famous.
Like I didn't want to be on tv.
I wanted to play a game, I wanted to like go into the wilderness, and then I was on tv and it was awesome.
You know, it was so cool.
It was like the way that people treated you.
They started to treat me with like a little, a little bit differently, not like I wasn't like famous, I was on reality television but like I was on TV, you know, there was something to that.
And people were inviting me to more parties.
You know, people were, I could just see in like my social interactions that people were listening harder to the things I said.
And then five months later, I was, I wasn't on TV anymore.
And that started to go away.
And like, as much as it was like fun to have it, it was like painful to lose it.
And that was what I found interesting: the pain of seeing it go away was almost worse than the pleasure of like, of like having it.
And that was one of the things, of course, I wanted to explore in the book was just this like it creates this need in you almost where you're like, I want to like have that esteem.
Like everyone wants the esteem of their peers.
And now there is like this sort of like very simple way to get it by like having some kind of public profile.
And I just think that's like a fascinating thing.
I mean, the other thing too, though, that I wanted to capture about reality TV contestants, I don't think a lot of them are just going for the fame.
You know, I think a lot of people want this experience because of the way that we all sort of have these like, you know, mediated lives, because of the fact that like every tropical adventure you can go on is a zillion other people have gone on it.
And you can see it on Instagram.
You know, you can see it on like whatever like website about like all the cool tropical adventures to go on.
And it's super safe and managed and curated and like created for you.
So everything you're about to do, you almost have no choice.
So it's just like a path that you walk down that's been built for other people by other people.
Yeah, there's literally like rails predictable as possible.
Yeah.
You're climbing a mountain path and there's like literally a handrail on the side, you know, and there's no handrails on survivor.
You know, there's no handrails on naked and afraid.
Those people are naked.
They're literally naked.
So I think that the idea of like going into this and doing something where there are no rules, there are no guardrails is like, it's such an impossible thing to capture.
But the fact that, and the fact that you can only capture this kind of freedom, I mean, there's other ways, obviously, but this is a path to capturing this freedom in this like extremely structured, mediated environment of a reality TV show is really interesting.
You know, one of the things that strikes me a lot, and like it used to be part of the entertainment of survivor in the early years, and I think other reality TV shows too.
People still like this.
You know, people go there and they just hate each other.
They have like constant drama and conflict and tension and like they just talk shit about each other, like behind their backs or even to their faces.
And that's clearly part of what people are attracted to.
But I think there's been this change, like maybe it's deliberate, maybe it's just part of the culture as well, where that kind of like animosity, interpersonal animosity is almost de-emphasized on these reality TV shows in favor of this very like intensified,
hyper rapid connection, like that community that forms where these people who didn't even know each other, you know, a few days earlier seem to have like the deepest emotional bonds with one another to these people have like very outsized importance in one another's lives.
And it seems to be to me part of what people are attracted to both in terms of doing it and watching it is this desire for this kind of connection with other people, this formation of communities that we used to have living in small towns or in churches or in unions or all kinds of things that have kind of disappeared as we all live in these tiny apartments and cities and work in cubicles behind screens.
I think your book has a lot of that, this kind of like craving for human connection that people unfortunately can't find a way to get except for these kind of experiences like reality TV.
How does that all play in in your view?
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I think like we are sort of all starving for connection.
And like, that's part of why when people go on these shows, they like immediately form these deep bonds.
You know, survivor exploded once again, like in terms of like viewership numbers during the pandemic, right?
During like during the COVID lockdowns, when people were sort of forced to be in their homes, and then suddenly they get to like, in their minds, have this jungle adventure.
They get to like through the screen, go on this adventure with 16 people.
And you're right, it wasn't just about going on the, into the jungle.
It was about being with people and this like intenseness of community and like literally like sleeping next to strangers.
You know, it is this sort of like, I mean, I was, I was shocked when I went on there how powerful it felt to be that close to that many people, you know, to have that sort of like, just like animal physical connection to people.
And so, you know, then, and then we were all kind of like forced away from that.
And I do think that's something that still tell me about that.
I'm really interested in hearing about that because, you know, we have these cliches, like we talk about how all the time, like we're political and social animals.
And, you know, like the past few years, I spent a lot of time on a farm.
We got a small farm.
So I like constantly around these like, you know, just farm animals, pigs and goats and horses and cows and really like observing their behavior and how central social interactivity and community and family and connection are to their lives.
Like there's almost nothing you could do worse to torture a goat or a pig than remove it from its social environment and stick it into some isolation, which is why like factory farms are so hideous.
So you really see it in social animals, which we are the importance of this, this constant connection.
And yet that's what's been like torn away from us in modern society.
You know, we like take our kids and we drop them off in daycare.
We go to work.
When our parents are old, we don't have them live with us.
We, you know, throw them into nursing homes.
Everybody's just dispersed as quickly as possible.
Whereas, you know, these bonds used to be central for thousands of years to the way we evolve.
And that physical and primal aspect is something I don't think a lot of.
Although, like, I do like when I'm laying on the ground in the mud with pigs and just like having them all around me, like I do feel that humanness kind of reactivated that we bury and suppress so much.
What was that like for you?
Like, especially, you know, you were saying you grew up in, like, like I did, like in cities or suburbs where you're really alienated from those primal roots.
Like, what, what was that experience like and forcibly having to reconnect to it?
Yeah, I've never been a big hugger or whatever, or I had never been a big hugger.
You know, I've always been a little bit physically awkward, a little bit, you know, more cerebral than in my body.
But then you, you know, I remember there was one night when I was with just one other person.
We were on this sort of remote island together called Exile Island.
It was pouring rain.
It was freezing.
And those just like that inherent distance you feel from people or like discomfort with another, like a stranger's body or even a friend's body, like immediately dissipates because like you need that other body for like literally like for their body heat.
So I have like never been as close to another human, you know, maybe my wife, yes, but like, you know, other than that.
Right, just like people with whom you're not intimate otherwise.
Psychological Manipulation in Politics00:10:13
Right.
Yeah.
And just like that primal experience.
And it really opened up something for me.
And like when we were, you know, subsequently, like when we were just being the shelter together, you know, we get very, very, very close.
And it is this like deep human connection you have with other people, like simply because of that, really, like simply because of the fact that like, I am there for your heat, you know, and I'm like providing my heat to you through my chest.
I mean, again, like it was something I wanted to get in the book too, which is like this, this sense of like, you are creating this like deep primal bond, but then at the same time, you're like on a reality show, you know, and you're like betraying people on a reality show.
And so, like, who has to betray people in their normal day-to-day life?
Like, I don't like betray anybody.
I don't lie to people's faces.
People who work in politics, people who are, I guess that's fair.
I guess that's fair.
I guess like for, yeah, there's a whole subclass of people who do that professionally.
Yeah.
Um, lawyers.
Uh, by the way, I like in the book, there's, you know, a bunch of different characters.
It's not just reality TV show contestants, but it's also reality TV show producers and how they're kind of manipulating and working with a kind of facimile of reality, but at the same time, as you said, kind of having an idea of what they want to force it to be or what they want to kind of turn it into.
They look ahead of time, not just picking randomly.
They're purposely putting people together to create some kind of social dynamic that they find that the thing will be entertaining that a lot of people want to watch.
It kind of has both components, like reality, but also something very mediated, which probably is, I think, our reality as well.
But I think that's part of what also gives it this kind of shameful, lowly kind of, you know, scummy feel to it.
Reality TV has that connotation that it's not just a bunch of people desperate to be famous, but the exploitation of them and their personhood that is permitted in that desperation and the way in which TV executives are more than happy to take advantage of that.
How much of a dynamic is there in that?
And do you think that's different in kind than, say, the Hollywood star system or other ways of fame making that came before it?
That's a really, really interesting point.
Honestly, I hadn't thought about it.
Like that, that reality specifically has this stigma.
But like Hollywood obviously is built on exploitation and you just hear constantly these stories of exploitation of like of people, you know, I'm laughing, but it's actually horrible.
The music industry, music industry too, same thing.
Yeah.
And often like, you know, young people in Hollywood too, or at least with a reality show, for the most part, it's all consenting adults, you know, who are who are agreeing to this, like stepping into this with, you know, knowledge of the trade-offs.
And in some way mitigated by the fact that it does seem so tawdry, like, you know, Hollywood is so, you know, you're so starry-eyed about the whole thing.
So you're like, I'll do anything for that, for that, that brass ring.
But like, you know, with reality shows, at this point, you kind of should know what you're getting into.
But, but yeah, I mean, I think that that is sort of what is interesting to me about it, which is the sense of there's this manipulation happening, but it's like, it is a willing manipulation.
It's like psychological manipulation.
It's not like you're being, you know, in the way of a Hollywood manipulation.
Like you have to do this like truly terrible thing in order to like achieve this wonderful thing.
Like with a reality show, it's like it's more subtle and insidious where they're kind of like getting in your head about like, don't you want to do this thing?
Like, aren't you know, and more really playing to one's own delusions, right?
Like you're going to be a hero.
People on TV are going to love you if you, you know, vote out this person.
You know, if you vote out Glenn, like everyone's going to love you, you know, and you're like, oh, I really should vote out Glenn.
Like, and then you start to believe it yourself.
It's not just like that they're telling you to do something.
It's like they get you to say something like, I want to vote out Glenn.
And then suddenly you start to believe that you truly want to vote out Glenn.
And like the way that that kind of, you know, I think that's a manipulation that's probably, you know, pervasive throughout society.
And it's just this, I was interested in exploring it in this really one concentrated way.
But, you know, I do think you're right that like the more respectable industry of Hollywood has like a much more, you know, maybe probably a much more toxic environment.
Yeah.
You know, I still have a couple more questions, but this is the part that I think probably like fascinates me the most, which is, you know, when we were talking about doing this, you were, you said a couple of times, like, hey, I know this isn't the sort of thing that you normally cover.
So, you know, thanks for doing this.
I was like, I know, actually, I think this is exactly what I cover, just from kind of a different angle, which sometimes if you do it from a different way in can give insights that are otherwise unattainable if you just keep coming at it the same way.
And I don't think it's a coincidence, given everything that we're talking about, that easily the most consequential political figure in the United States of this century, the 20th century, the 21st century is Donald Trump, who prior to becoming to getting elected president spent 10 years as a very successful host of what essentially was a reality TV show program, The Apprentice on NBC, where he really honed these skills that I think ended up serving him so well in terms of his ability to attract attention,
constant attention, you know, to understand like what buttons needed to be pushed through the screen that provoke people's emotions.
I mean, these are the things that are indispensable skills, probably like the defining skills to doing reality TV in a successful way.
They've clearly spilled over into politics, into journalism, where everybody is competing on the internet and this like attention economy.
Everybody needs a way to find it, you know, get attention to themselves.
I talk to like young journalists all the time.
They're like, you know, what advice can you give me?
Which is how you know that you're old and when young people start asking you like, oh, what advice can you give me?
And you're like, well, when I started off, and this is like decades ago and you want to kill yourself.
But anyway, you know, what I always say is like, look, I mean, it may not seem particularly uplifting, but the reality is, is that people consume their news and information and entertainment, which you're also providing people if you're doing well through the internet, which means there are infinite numbers of choices that people have.
And you have to provide a way to attract attention to yourself, to get people to be aware that you exist, to look at you, to want to see what it is that you're saying and doing, which obviously is the key ingredient for reality TV as well.
It's kind of seeped into every one of our societal sectors, including politics and journalism and news and business, almost anything.
Do you think that in a way that reality TV just kind of came to reflect these pre-existing conditions in society that it started to fulfill just like these other things do?
Or do you think that there's actually a kind of conscious attempt to replicate the success of reality TV and things like our politics and media?
Well, kind of what you were saying earlier, I think like what reality TV brought was this sort of like explosion of authenticity into a, into a world that felt very like, you know, scripted.
So like, I mean, you know, that's obviously was a lot of Trump's initial appeal, right?
Was that he was felt authentic when you like, you know, you had Marco Rubio next to him, like giving like the same talking point like six times in six in rapid succession.
And then Trump was just kind of like off the cuff and you felt like, wow, I'm seeing like a real person up there rather than like a team of people who have written something.
And I think like what is the challenge, I guess, is creating an authentic moment that like, you know, being able to sort of create an authentic moment that also feels interesting to the audience.
And so you have to sort of like, in a way, like kind of like script your authentic moments in a way that, you know, is like attention grabbing and interesting, but doesn't feel like you've like thought about it in advance and is scripted.
And like, I do think that is what reality TV gives you.
And I do think has, which what has taken over the, you know, our attention economy is like what feels fresh and new, but also like doesn't feel like someone like planned it out to be fresh and new.
And again, like, that's the tension of these shows.
It's like these things are, someone is pushing towards these things, but they also have this sense of, you know, authenticity.
No, but I remember this moment, which is so transformative for me, which was it was 2015.
Trump was kind of at the, you know, in the lead in the polls in the Republican primary, but still very early, like the kind of lead that people all over professional media was assuming would just evaporate.
It was just due to name recognition once things got serious.
And he gave this interview where he was asked about John McCain, who, you know, is as close to a secular saint in the United States as it gets, especially among the media, which adored him.
And that was when he said, yeah, I don't really like John McCain.
I don't really think he's a hero.
I prefer our soldiers who don't get caught and don't end up as POWs to the ones that do.
And there was this big article in the Washington Post on the front page the next day by the kind of dean of political reporting, Dan Baltz, who's just been around for decades, understands all the rules.
And he was like, okay, this is the end of Trump's campaign.
There's no way anyone can survive having said something like that about John McCain.
There's no way Republican voters are going to tolerate it.
And as it turned out, not a single Republican voter gave the slightest shit about John McCain or what you say about him.
All those moments of Trump's accumulated and made him more popular precisely because the rawness and authenticity of it, as you suggested, is exactly what they were looking for.
Now, the problem is, is that oftentimes the way to attract attention most easily and to seem most authentic is to kind of descend into the dirt or mud much more casually than anyone previously would.
And you see a lot of that on reality TV, like the kind of people who end up as successful in the sense that they're attracting attention are just people behaving very poorly, you know, just people who are behaving like assholes or douchebags or just drawing negative attention themselves, but it's still better than no attention.
And I'm wondering, in looking at it through the prism of reality TV and then kind of trying to generalize it more broadly to these other sectors that have adopted similar dynamics, whether you think that kind of authenticity can be achieved in a way that's like uplifting and positive in the sense like, oh, there's something unique here, but it's uniquely inspiring as opposed to just authentic and unique because people would never have done this because these are lines people wouldn't have previously crossed.
Negative Attention Success00:02:22
That's so interesting.
It's such a great question.
I mean, I've seen it in like my little subculture in the survivor subculture.
You know, the people that the fans root for the most are the ones who do feel like the most inspiring.
Like Sari Fields, who's now playing on Survivor 50, like that's everybody's favorite contestant.
You know, I mean, not everybody, but like the more people I speak to, like she is always at the top.
And her whole storyline is this is a person who was afraid to get off the couch, who was afraid of leaves, and now sort of has like progressed over time by like consistently pushing herself to become one of the best players ever.
And not just because she's nice, but because she's like conniving and strategic, but also just so authentic that you love her, even as she's kind of destroying what you're trying to.
Well, yes, there's that negative.
But I do think like the core of it.
No, but I think that that's what people respect, right?
Is that like she's playing the game well, even the cutthroat parts, but it's just always paired with this like authentic human goodness.
Right.
There's like always a warmth to her, even as she is blindsiding people.
So I've seen it in like a microcosm.
Now, like, can that attract scale attention?
Like, I'm a little suspicious that maybe not in this day and age, but you know, we can, we can, we can hope for something for the future.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess there was that big viral moment in Survivor.
I think it was last year, the year before, but they had on a woman who had severe types of autism and she kind of would disconnect and go into a panic mode under stress.
And there was this contestant, this big, strong guy who took on the role of like comforting her and being her security blanket, even at the expense of his own game.
And I didn't particularly love that.
It was just a little too much for me.
But that really was the kind of thing that I think resonated for people because it was so real, but it wasn't, you know, tauddry.
It was just sort of like benevolent.
Yeah.
I mean, the thing about those moments is like, you can't really maintain them.
You know, you can have one big moment and it can have like one big impact.
But like, because it is so, you know, such an authentic thing and because it is like such a, you know, a, you know, a situation specific thing, like you just can't like, you know, Joe couldn't then like go on and have that same hero moment again and again with like multiple other people.
It would just look, then at that point, it looks contrived.
Whereas to your point, you can keep, you can keep going lower.
It's hard to keep going higher.
Why Reality TV Took Over Entertainment00:01:03
All right.
Well, Stephen, I'm so happy I got an advanced copy of your book so that I could spend the time I wanted to reading it.
I read it from front to back.
I loved it as much, pretty much as every other critic of major outlets and literary blogs and pretty much across the board, it was widely applauded, which is very hard to do with a novel.
It's doing well in terms of how many people are buying it.
I really hope people will read it and see that like it's not just about reality TV, although it is.
And that should be something you're interested in just because of how dominant it is in our culture, but it provides so many windows into like why this thing just took over our entertainment.
It didn't happen arbitrarily, but because of a lot of, I think, very complex dynamics in terms of how we as human beings are craving things that we're not getting, how society is structured to deny us certain things that we probably need.
And we're turning to things like that together.
So congratulations on the book.
I know from experience how hard and miserable, but also like inspiring writing a book can be.
So I really appreciate your taking the time to talk to me.