Triple H details how Vince McMahon punished him for "The Click" friendship at Madison Square Garden, yet later embraced edgy DX content that won the Monday Night War. He recounts the Bret Hart Montreal incident, Steve Austin's rise via the "Austin 3:16" promo, and his own romantic gamble with Stephanie McMahon during the McMahon-Helmsley era. After a 2001 injury shifted audience sentiment, Triple H learned that creating hated villains is essential for compelling babyfaces, contrasting modern fatigue with timeless good-versus-evil narratives. Ultimately, the discussion reveals how WWE manipulates perception like reality TV, proving that authentic storytelling and calculated hatred drive enduring success in professional wrestling. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
|
Time
Text
Wrestling as Cultural Mirror00:13:30
Guys, I'm sure you're all familiar with the old proverb: everything is wrestling.
Politics, business, entertainment, every industry thrives on character development, storytelling, and building an audience.
Wrestling is a mirror for whatever is happening in culture.
So, if you want to understand culture, just watch wrestling.
And no one understands the art of storytelling and brand building better than our guest today.
He's a 14-time WWE World Champion, a two-time Royal Rumble winner.
And now he's behind the scenes running World Wrestling Entertainment.
He's a man of many monikers.
Terror Ryzen, Jean-Paul Levesque, Hunter Hearst Helmsley, the game.
But today we're going to call him Triple H. Give it a front.
Okay, first question.
I'm doing some research on you, and I come across this story.
I don't know if it's legend.
You can break it down for us.
But basically, one of the worst moments in your career, you get punished unjustly.
And because of that punishment, one of the greatest superstars in the history of wrestling is created.
Tell us how we get there.
Yeah, I'll just lead you into what's supposed to happen.
So at that point in time, I'm starting to get some momentum going in my career.
And there's a plan in place that I am going to win a very, especially at the time, was a very prestigious tournament called the King of the Ring.
I would be crowned King of the Ring, which would then launch me into a program or an angle with Sean Michaels, who was champion.
Or I think at the time when they brought it up, he was either champion at that time or was going to be champion by that time.
And I was going to sort of escalate myself up into that higher level of being a heel, a bad guy.
And Sean was a babyface champion.
So we were going to go into this program into that year.
So it would have been a huge, what we would call push for me in the business.
Yeah, yeah.
It just would have really been the thing that launched me.
Well, so this is years into the business.
This is not early.
Yeah, it's years into the business, but early for me in WWE to a degree.
Right.
And at that same point in time, you know, the business was going through transitional changes, right?
So I'm at that time, I'm still Hunter Hurst Helmsley.
I'm the blue blood snob.
There's still like everybody's got to have sort of gimmicks and characters that are not necessarily just like you're a wrestler, you're a fireman or a cop or the clown or two by four.
Yeah, whatever it is.
The gimmicks are larger than life, sort of cartoony characters.
But backstage, there's a group of us that hang out together that were known as the click.
Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Sean Waltman, Sean Michaels, myself.
And I was kind of, they were kind of just friends that all hung out together.
Sort of Luger gave them the name The Click because they were always together.
I sort of come in at that same time.
For whatever reason, I get along great with those guys.
We all end up as a group.
We're known as the Click.
Now, you're known as a group backstage.
Backstage.
Because on stage, some of you guys are babyfaces.
Some of you guys are heels.
And from my understanding, the heels and the babyfaces never even really hung out that much backstage.
They would never ride around together.
There was like a real to a degree.
Slightly before that, you go a generation before that.
Yeah, nobody even associated with each other.
If they walked into a bar and there was a bad guy in there and a good guy walked in the bar, you just leave.
So you basically keep the K-Fabe going.
You keep it going all the time.
And, you know, that was at a period of time where guys were getting into fights over is the, you know, if somebody came to you and said, that stuff's fake, whatever, or, you know, try to criticize it.
And there was a lot of badasses in the business at that time that were not afraid to do that.
Yeah, guys like Harley Race and things like that that would really, you know, they were legitimate badasses.
And if somebody questioned the business, they'd end up beaten up, knocked out, broken leg, whatever.
And the idea is that you have to protect the business because without the business, there's no job.
And it's all predicated on this idea that this is 100% real, not scripted, that people need to believe.
Yeah, though, as you move forward out of that, I think people became accepting of it's just great entertainment.
Yeah.
So I want to get to this like later because I don't want to interrupt the story.
But like, I think one of the coolest things that I've learned now, especially different from when I was a kid watching wrestling, is like how aware the average wrestling fan is of what's going on.
And it's become really meta.
To click away.
Yeah, to click away all the information.
And what's fascinating about our business is as interesting as the characters we put on TV, right?
So there's a moment where there's some people that are just interested in what they see on TV.
There are some people that are just as fascinated, if not more so, with what happens behind the scenes, the sort of the who that person is in real life, the politics of it.
They make up their own stories in some manner of the things that are going on.
Well, I know that guy hates that guy and they don't get along at all.
And we will even perpetuate that through the internet and things like that, where it might not have anything to do with the story that is happening on the show, but we'll perpetuate that partially.
As we get into this, I think that's important that you brought that up because I think that's a huge game change that I hope you get credit for in wrestling and blurring the lines of what's happening backstage and on stage.
Part of that translates into or relates to this story of what you're talking about.
So that group, the click, were all very tight backstage.
It's not like common knowledge.
I wouldn't say everybody knows it, but there's a section of fans that at that time, you know, this is before the internet, are really beginning to understand what goes on behind the scenes and who's really tight and who's not.
These guys are friends and that guy isn't and they don't like this guy and there's politics with that, whatever.
Right.
So Kevin Nash and Scott Hall make a deal with WCW to leave.
The rival league, who's throwing money around at this point, signing away a bunch of people.
There's a thing of Monday Night War going on.
Vince is coming off of trials and all this stuff where the business is sort of down.
WCW goes on the attack and one of the things that they do is they start really coming after talent with big, big checks.
And right.
Whereas Vince sort of puts you into a position where you are participating in the revenue of the business.
So if we went to Madison Square Garden and it was sold out, the gate is this.
There's a percentage of that gate that gets paid to talent.
That's divvied up amongst the talent, right?
There's percentages.
So if business is good, you make more money.
If business is down, you make less money.
And that's why you protect the business.
Yes.
And so WCW, they were just paying guys money.
Yeah, guaranteed.
So, you know, Scott Hall decides he's leaving shortly thereafter.
Kevin Nash goes through this big thing where he doesn't want to leave, but they're offering him so much money.
And, you know, our schedule in WWE was at that point in time, we were working, you know, 200, 250 days a year.
We were on the road all the time.
Physically grueling.
Yes, just non-stop.
Just the travel wears out a comedian.
If I see traveling to sit on a stool on stage, I'm exhausted.
You guys are flying through pages.
And in the same business, right?
Like the best part of what you do is when you're on that stage, when you're in that ring.
And that other 23 hours and 20 minutes of the day is the shit you put up with to get to do your job.
Yeah.
Right.
And, but guys are doing it.
It's grueling.
It's relentless.
And, you know, Kevin gets into a place where they're offering ridiculous money, but he still doesn't want to go.
And there's a moment where he tells me, right when he has to give the answer, I'm home.
He calls me and he's like, I'm not going.
Staying.
I can't do it.
And then, like, two days later, we're at TV and he's like, I just gave Vince my notice.
I'm like, I thought you weren't going.
And he's like, basically, my wife said, you don't either take that money, I'm not raising this kid by myself with that schedule anymore.
Like, you take that money.
They shrunk the schedule for WCW.
Yeah, WCW was working, you know, they were mostly just doing TV.
You know, they were doing some live events, right?
But probably the schedule was half.
Oh, wow.
How are they able to give out bigger checks if they weren't doing as much?
That's why they're out of business.
Yeah, it's, you know, it was Ted Turner.
It was, it was TBS, right?
A lot of money, a lot of, and there's a certain point in time where, like, when you, when you're just paying a lot of money and the revenue's not coming in, like, well, you know, it's a time bomb.
Yeah.
You know, any fool can run a business in the red.
It doesn't take a genius to do that.
So Kevin and Scott are leaving.
Sean and I are staying.
There's another guy in the group, Sean Waltman, but he isn't at Madison Square Garden.
But we're doing a show at Madison Square Garden.
It's their last time at Madison Square Garden.
They're leaving shortly thereafter.
And Sean comes to me during the day and he's like, hey, I mentioned something to Vince about us all going out at the end of the show and having a moment together.
And I said, what did Vince say?
And he was like, yeah, I guess if that means a lot to you or something like that.
And so it was kind of very vague.
But what was weird about it was funny.
That's how what's weird about it is to the business is Scott and I are going to wrestle earlier in the show in like a street fight.
And I beat Scott and the whole thing.
And then Sean and Kevin are going to work a cage match for the WWE F-Time F, I think, WWE title, whatever.
And the close of the show.
So us coming out there to have a moment together is sort of contrary to the show.
Of course.
And but when now, when the time comes to do this, Scott and I wrestle earlier.
We have this knockdown, drag out street fight.
And then now Kevin and Sean go in there.
And we're kind of at the end of the show.
And there's a the way the garden was set up in the past, there's a side bomb that like guys would always stand at to watch the show.
Vince would stand at this curtain.
His dad would stand at that curtain, right?
That's where they would watch from.
And Scott and I were standing there and they kind of get to the end of the match.
And Sean is kind of looking back at us.
And Scott says to me, Are we supposed to go out there?
I'm like, I don't know, dude.
And then Scott looks at Vince and he goes, Are we supposed to go out there?
And he's like, kind of like we're all unsure.
And then Scott's like, fuck it, I'm going.
And he just goes, right?
And I think in his mind, like, I'm quitting.
Yeah, I'm out of here anyways, right?
There's no cost to him.
Yeah, fuck it.
I'm going.
And like, I'm like, well, fuck.
Then they're kind of looking, waving back at me.
And I'm like, shit.
All right.
Here I go.
So we go out there and we have this moment.
I mean, the garden sold out and they go ballistic.
So the people are happy to see you all acknowledge that you're friends and break this crazy moment, right?
Like it's this crazy moment of like most people, I believe, at that time, probably in the garden, especially New York, is so savvy to everything.
Like they know we're all friends.
They get it, right?
And they know they're leaving.
And this is like an incredible, real, real life moment.
First time in wrestling history, this has happened where you kind of break probably one of the big, yeah, one of the big moments where it actually happens.
So we do it.
When we come back, Everybody's gone, like everybody, and like usually there's at the garden, like there's people back there, the agents, all this.
So we come back, everybody's gone.
I'm like, that's not a good sign.
But so Sean goes and talks to Vince, and Vince says, Well, that was a lot different than what I thought it was going to be.
Um, and Sean said, Hope I was okay.
And he said, Well, did that mean something to you?
And Sean goes, Meant the world to me.
And he goes, Then I'm okay with it.
And we left.
And we used to stay in at the time, we stayed in Newark.
And there's a place that we all diner that business is different now.
We all drive back.
If we were doing the garden, Long Island, all that stuff, New York was a big hub.
We'd go stay in Newark at the airport and just make the passage.
Right?
So you could stay in one place.
Yeah.
So we went back.
We all had dinner together at this diner and stuff like that.
And we were all like, well, that was crazy.
What just happened and all that shit.
And, you know, big moment.
So the next day, I'm off.
The next day, I'm going to, I'm driving up.
I lived in New Hampshire at the time, driving back up.
And as soon as I get home, there's a message from Vince's office, his secretary, saying, Vince would like to see you first thing in the morning tomorrow.
And I'm like, fuck.
Like, this isn't going to be good.
Like, he ain't calling to go like, wonderful job.
Like, it's my day off.
I got to heap, you know, I got to go there.
So I like literally turn around, drive all the way back, go back to the office the next day.
And this is the meeting where like everybody's freaking out.
The End Point of Time00:05:45
And Vince was even putting it on.
I wasn't so sure that he was upset with it.
Everybody else.
And you have to understand all the producers and agents backstage that helped with the show and everything are a generation before.
So they're of the generation of protect the business at all costs.
Bad guys don't ride with good guys, right?
Yeah.
To some degree, they all go nuts when they see this.
And now Kevin's leaving, Scott's leaving.
And to those producers and agents, well, look, it looks bad for Vince.
It looks like the inmates are running the asylum and he doesn't have control over these guys.
These group, the click has like is doing whatever they want and they spit right in your face.
And if you don't do something, it looks bad.
It's a disrespectful type thing.
And I don't think Vince took it that way, but I think that's what he was.
He had always had a saying, perception is reality.
And perception amongst them was this.
And so I, you know, as soon as I knew I wasn't sure, I'm like, well, I'm either going to get fired or this is going to be like, I'm going to get like, this is going to be heavy.
And what a drive from New Hampshire.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So, so, but, but I was, you know, I was kind of like, well, it is what it is.
Okay.
And I'm a big believer in like, if you're going to do something that in your mind, you know, is kind of fucked up, like, you cannot cry afterwards with whatever comes about from it.
Like, you made the decision to do it.
So if the, if the ramifications of that are way worse than you thought, well, that's on you.
You made the choice.
So, um, yeah, it's, it's a pretty heavy meeting.
And Vince is like, look, uh, it's unfair.
It's all these things.
But Kev's leaving, Scott's leaving.
I can't do anything to them.
Kid wasn't there, but Sean was there, but he's the WWE champion.
Like, Sean Michaels is a champ.
Can't flash the champ.
Not much I can do to him.
So you're like, you have to call it a wash, right?
Let's move on, huh?
And yeah, and he was like, well, you know, here's the thing.
A lot of people are saying I should fire you.
And I'm like, okay, what are you saying?
And he said, I don't want to fire you.
I think you're incredibly talented.
I think I want you here.
But, you know, I've got to do something.
And so he goes, you know, you were going to win King of the Ring.
That's going to go away.
You were going to do this program with Sean.
That's going to go away.
Damn.
You are going to.
And this is one of Vince's favorite sayings, but this was the time when he said it to me when I hit the artist.
He said, you are going to have to learn to eat platefuls of shit and like the taste of it.
Damn.
And okay.
And I said, so, well, the one thing, you know, I was accepting of it.
Obviously, it hit hard, but I was accepting of it.
And I said to him before I left, I said, here's a, because he said, but if you want to leave, he said, I understand this is not all on you.
If you want to leave, if you think you can get a job with Turner with those guys, if you want to leave, I understand that.
I'll make it where there's a loophole in your contract.
Oh, that's decent.
And you can get out.
Did you consider it?
No, I didn't.
I didn't.
I didn't want.
I had come from there.
Yeah, of course.
Right.
So before I came in.
So I kind of knew, even though it had risen dramatically and their business had gone through the roof, I was like, I don't want to be there.
I'm here for a reason.
This is the place where they can make me.
What felt better?
What felt different?
They didn't have a clue what they were doing there.
And it was literally the inmates running the asylum.
And I knew that, like, you knew you had a boss right here.
You knew that there was one place to get the final answer from and that it came from one place.
And that sometimes it's all you need is whether you like the decision or you don't.
You need somebody to make a decision.
It can't be, well, I think this.
And then you go to this guy and he's like, no, I don't want to do that.
I want to do this.
And he's got some kind of creative control, but this other guy's got creative control too.
And it's just a mess, man.
It's a mess.
So one of the things I said to Vince was, I said, I don't want to leave.
I said, if, but if I have no choice, then, well, that's what I have to do.
But I said, let me just ask a question is, I said, I did the crime.
I'll take all the punishment.
But I have to know, is there a point where this ends?
Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?
I'm willing to go through all the shit.
I'm willing to take it.
I'm willing to do the time for what I did, but I got to know there's an end point on it.
If you say to me, I can't get out of this, then I got to go.
But if you say to me, no, no, it'll be a period of time.
And then you'll get the opportunity.
As long as I'm still delivering to where you feel like I deserve that opportunity, if I can get that opportunity, then I stay.
And he said, as far as I'm concerned, there's no issue with me.
He said, as far as I'm concerned, when you walk out that door of my office, it's over.
It's all done and you're on flat ground with me.
He said, but I got to, I got to for a period of time.
I got to put this out to everybody else that you're fucked.
And then once I feel like that's been enough, then as long as you're still delivering, you get the opportunity to come back up.
So I left there.
And one of the things that I said to him before I left is I went to the door and I stopped and I said, hey, I just want to ask you one thing.
And I just want it to be something that you think about because it's been resonating with me is I understand everybody's point of view, but the world is changing and the business is changing.
Effort When Going Over00:05:19
And I said, if what we did was so bad, then why was the largest or the loudest reaction of the entire night what we did?
Like, if what we did was so bad, isn't our job to entertain those people that all paid?
I guarantee you, the one thing they left there saying is, holy shit, at the end, they all came out.
It was this moment.
It was real, right?
Like I said, the business is changing and we're either going to change with it or it's going to pass us by.
And he sat there for a second and he said, you might be right, but right now isn't the moment.
Far too wise, yeah.
And I left.
And then I went from being the guy that was going to win King of the Ring to being the guy that was losing in the first round.
And Jake Roberts, who was fairly old at the time, was sticking the snake down my pants as a haha thing.
And, you know, I had a, you know, I got every shit detail, every bad thing I got given to me.
What are examples of that?
Like, what are examples just getting fucked?
Whoever was the worst guy that they wanted me to get over, like, just go put that guy.
Go get beat.
So you would have to wrestle these guys that they're trying to build up and they all have to beat you.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm not on any media anymore.
I'm not featured in the shows.
I'm just.
You're just there.
You're a B-side fighter.
I'm just at best.
Right.
In boxing, we call it a tomato can.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At best.
And then so, yeah, time went on and, you know, eventually it got to a point where I'm a big believer in like, if you're talented and, you know, I'll say that about myself, I guess, in that manner.
But if you're, if you believe in yourself and you believe in your talent, then they can't only hold that back for so long that that'll eventually come out and it'll eventually rise to the top.
And it's not about the storyline they give you always or the thing they give you.
It's about creating your moments.
This is something I tell talent all the time, maximize your minutes.
So even if I went out there with a shit detail, I would find something in there for me to have a moment.
Yeah.
I don't know.
That was good.
Whatever.
You know what I mean?
Like I would have that one moment where I at least felt like I came back and I was like, that was horrible, but I at least got this out of it.
Made the best of it.
Yeah.
And you sort of have to, you have to, you have to have those moments.
Which might be too vague to answer.
If it is, that's fine.
You can just move on.
But what is an example of like a moment to like a noob like me?
Yeah, that's too vague.
It's fine.
It could be anything, but it just could be when you have an opportunity at some point as the heel, you're going to have an opportunity to beat the shit out of the babyface.
In what manner do you do it?
So many people get into a place in our business, I think, or anything else, like in our business where you believe in yourself and you believe in your ability.
And as writers, we're not using you to the best of your ability right now.
That happens to everybody, right?
And there's ebbs and flows in your career.
How you deal with that, though, is up to you.
You can go out there and say, I'm going to fucking prove it to them every single night.
I'm going to go out there and kill this, no matter what it is.
Or you can go, they're not using me.
They don't care.
Fuck that.
I'll show them.
And go out there and not try.
Yeah.
Even getting your ass kicked, you can have a good performance.
Phone it in.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, right?
Yeah, there's a, there's like, anytime I'm acting or like doing some movies, like sometimes you see some real pros there, right?
And they might have like a line or two in the scene and they'll just find a way to make it the funniest line.
Even when they're not even saying anything.
Scene stealer, guy in the background that just like where you just can't help but look at that guy.
Yeah.
And it's like, it's not like they're being narcissistic.
They're like given one line.
They're like, how can I add to this scene and how can I make this good?
And watching that is really interesting because a lot of times you look at the script and you're like, okay, who is the most lines?
Okay, me.
I'm delivering it.
Or that person.
So you could have one line.
Exactly.
And it could be all about.
Exactly.
And that's the thing, right?
So you can either go negative on it.
I can sometimes tell watching the show, like that guy walking out, he's about to get beat by this other guy and he thinks it's wrong that they're putting that guy over him.
So he's doing that energy.
He doesn't want to do it.
We call it boo-boo-facing.
So he comes out boo-boo faced and he doesn't have that same fire.
Now that same talent sometimes, oh, they're going over.
This match is for them.
They're going to go over.
Excited.
They come out like a big star, and everything they do is they're putting all the effort in and like all that stuff, right?
It's it's it's easy to put the effort in when they're going away.
Yeah, and when they're going with you, and this is all about me, the trick is to put that effort in.
You know, the trick is to still go to the gym, hit it just as hard, be in just as good a shape, be spot on on your game, and do all those things that you need to do.
Because when that one time that they give you something and that you see that hole, I can do that and steal this scene.
And you go out there and you do that.
And now that's after a couple of times, that stuff starts to become undeniable.
Yeah.
Because the truth is, we just react off what the crowd does.
Yeah.
So when the crowd starts to see that and they start to get into a talent, now you're giving that crowd what they want and they're respecting it and they're going with it.
Maintaining Shape Through Purgatory00:04:37
We have no choice but to follow that.
Yeah.
Would you ever get upset at your opponent if it feels like they're just phoning it in during the match?
Sometimes.
What do you do?
Do you fuck them up a little bit more?
Nah, you know, it just depends on who it is.
You know, sometimes you just talk to them.
Like, come on, guys.
Come on, step up.
Or, you know, whatever it is.
Sometimes you just can't help it.
Also, guys, tour dates, Denver.
I'm in Greenwood Village, Colorado at Comedy Works South on Friday and Saturday.
Sunday, I'm going to be at the Comedy Works in downtown 420 show.
You know what that means?
I will be performing high the one and only time all year.
May 9th and 10th, Virginia Beach.
June 19th and through 21st, I'm going to be in Salt Lake City at Wise Guys.
All those dates and plenty more at Akashing.com.
Also, June 4th through 9th, brown basketball players, Brown Ballers Tournament, compete for a million dollars in where is this shit going to be?
Somewhere in North Carolina.
Carey, North Carolina, June 4th through 6th.
Check that out.
I just want to shout out my Brown brothers playing basketball.
Keep doing great things.
Love y'all.
Hold on a second.
Don't skip forward, guys, because it's the world's fastest ad read.
Let's get a fuck miles in the chat, by the way, to prove you didn't skip.
We got Raleigh, North Carolina, Poughkeepsie, Portland, Fort Worth, Austin, Stanford, Philly, Levantown, Chandler, and San Diego.
More dates to come.
You can get it at my website, markgagnonlive.com.
And I can't wait to see you guys there for consensual time where no one's going to have no one's going to suck my dick.
Somebody suck his dick.
Okay, and we're back.
Okay, so yeah, I wonder if like eating shit for that much time gave you like a real competitive advantage because you get used to not getting the thing.
So now you're not bitter about not getting it.
And also, you're not afraid about being in the position where you're not getting put over.
Yeah.
Because you went heel a bunch of times even after your success.
Yeah.
Well, and I think it, I don't know, there's something like at that point now, I'm trying to earn my way back up, but at the same point in time, you start to begin to realize like, oh, well, fuck it.
If it doesn't go well, then who knows?
Like, I could be here for a while, they could fire me, or maybe this isn't the right place for me.
So I go someplace else, whatever that is.
You start to get to a place that is, I don't want to say you don't give a shit because you do.
You care more than anything.
But you start to realize, fuck it.
I'm just going to do my thing.
You're free.
It's a freedom.
It's a freedom.
You're not obsessed with the outcome somewhere.
Yeah.
So when you see us get to a point after that, when I start to get sort of free of that junk, is the time we get to do DX.
We had been on Vince for a long time prior to Kevin and Scott leaving that we wanted to do this group.
We wanted to sort of take what we were doing personally and put it on TV because we thought people will really think this is cool.
Right, right.
And Kevin and Scott are good.
You're telling people to suck your dick personally.
You understood what it was.
Need to sell those aprons.
What's that?
Suck the chef.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So that was sort of just us in in real life right, like just walking around the document.
Suck the chef, Austin.
Austin gets to a place where he's allowed to flip.
Oh sorry, we never got to.
Sorry yeah yeah, so i'll get there.
But like Austin was in a place where he could flip people up.
But prior to that, as we're coming out of that generation, you can't flip people up, you can't do that right, you can't do anything as as talent.
This is, before any of this happens, Kev Scott, myself.
Like we have this thing we would do where, you know you'd get up on the turnbuckle and somebody'd be yelling at you, flipping you off or something, and you'd just look at him and be like hey buddy right, you know what I mean, that's all it would be, yeah.
Or you'd be like you know just just, and they got it right and you'd move on.
We, as the attitude era, begins to form and sort of i'm in a place where hey, I just want to get out of this purgatory.
I'm in and Sean's the guy we we get to Vince.
Vince allows us to sort of partner up on screen and dx becomes a thing and in the beginning now we start doing all this crazy and he's like, are you guys doing?
Vince Likes the Punishment00:02:00
Now i've also over that time when i'm punished.
I think Vince liked the fact that man.
He threw all this at me and I never blinked you know what I mean like the only one time I ever went to him and bitched in all of it and it was because he put me in a match with a guy that was almost impossible to work with and then gave me like the worst referee that we had and like the whole setup was bad and it it went really badly and I came back and I went off and it was like hey it, if you're going to, if you're going to not allow me to have the chance to succeed, then that i'm out of here.
Like you cannot give me that you cannot give, put me in a position where I cannot succeed or cannot win and can't even do my job right.
Like if you put me in that position, then I have no choice but to go because I cannot.
I can't overcome that.
What was it?
It I was working, I was wrestling a guy that was just terrible.
They wanted me to have this long match with him.
They gave me the worst referee.
Which a referee can help you work around people's in in inabilities because um, I can talk to the referee.
So if, if I need a guy to do something, he's not doing something right, I can't just always walk over there and tell him like right like, so you tell the referee, i'm like, tell him to stop doing that, and you know what I mean.
Like and the referee can go over and tell him.
He said, stop doing that, do this right, and I have enough experience to where guys will listen, but I need that.
Sometimes you need the help, especially on live tv yeah, or or even tape tv.
You just need to have that help.
Who was the guy?
Ahmed Johnson, a guy named Ahmed.
Oh, I remember terrible.
Yeah, he's like injured people in the ring right, he was hurting people and he was just big and yeah yeah, just yeah, and you couldn't understand him and he had an attitude problem and just, you know um, that's him.
And um oh, you know they, they.
Referees and Live TV Help00:15:22
It was just one of those things.
And when I came back, I was pissed and I went to Vince and I got a promo on him and I thought he was going to go off and be.
Well, I told you, if you don't like it, you get out of here, whatever.
And he didn't.
He was like that's fair, that's fair.
And I was like okay, well then, fucking don't do it again.
I just walked out, But he was like, that's fair.
You can't, if I put you, if I give dump that much shit on you that you just can never dig out of it, then, you know.
So he, you know, changed that.
But I think he respected the fact that I, you know, I did the time.
I never bitched.
I never did anything.
And now it was time for me to get out of jail.
And when he did, he was like, and I'll let you and Sean do this group thing.
Okay, so that's your reward.
It's sort of, yeah.
And, but Sean and I immediately just go into like overdrive on it and start doing shit that he has just.
So you get an opportunity and immediately try to fuck it up.
Make up for life.
Why don't we just tell the whole arena to suck our face?
Yeah, I don't think, I don't think we were trying to fuck it up, but we just had that, like, we wanted that creative freedom to go do what we wanted.
And the thing was, I believe that Vince was starting to see the change happening.
And while everybody else was going, they can't do that.
They can't say that.
The TV network was telling us they can't do that.
They can't say that.
He was being like, man, the fucking crowd is reacting to these.
Is this around like the same time Stern is popping off too?
Yes.
So there's like cultural.
Yes.
Yeah.
And as we, as we always said in the documentary, did a brilliant job of displaying it.
It's like, you know, wrestling is this great reflection of culture.
Yeah, it's a mirror of what is happening.
Sometimes we're in front of it.
Sometimes we're just following it.
But there's a mirror of sort of what is happening.
And I think about that period of time.
Like, you know, we were, you know, we were pulling our pants down on TV and telling people to suck it and all the chef.
All the shit.
You got to get a picture of the apron.
Sucks up the cook.
You're not the car.
Invited to the cookout.
That's what you got to wear.
But it was politically correct because we didn't put the you inside.
Yeah.
So it was safe.
Who knows what it says?
Sick the cook.
Who knows?
But I believe he was starting to see, you know, Austin's a bit edgier.
We're a bit edgier.
And that stuff's really starting to get a reaction.
And it's not following yet necessarily with ratings or whatever.
But the crowd is telling us that's where we want to go.
And again, you're seeing Stern, you know, like the Maury Povich shows and all these shows are like so edgy.
Springer.
There's a lot of, I can't believe I'm seeing this.
Yeah.
I remember there was a show like, was it Hill Street Blues or something like that where the actor at the time, and I remember his name, Dennis Franz, it was a scene where he, you know, he's at his like apartment or something and he comes out and he walks down a hallway and they show his naked ass on TV for like, you know, 30 seconds while he's France.
Yeah.
What an ass to show.
But it was like...
People lost their minds.
How did they do that?
And we were like, this is funny.
I connect South Park in wrestling.
South Park.
I feel like Beavis and Buddha.
Yeah, yeah.
It was like being inappropriate was very cool.
There was this rebellious nature happening in media and entertainment.
So there's a moment in time where Vince comes to us now that he's getting so much shit from the network.
Probably hip-hop too.
When is NWA?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's like every form of media.
Everything is rebellious and over the top and like attitude and holy shit.
And this is what year?
Shock TV.
This is the late 90s, probably.
96-ish.
Like Limpus Kit.
Like break shit.
Yeah.
So 80s is like prim proper.
Everybody's got the suit on, hair slicked back.
It's the overcorrection.
And the overcurrent.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is great.
The pendulum swings.
Yes, yes, yes.
Right.
And it's the overcorrection.
Okay.
And we are the overcorrection.
Yeah.
And we're pushing it to an extreme.
And two things on that.
There's a moment where USA Network was like, you know, we'd come back from the ring and Vince would be like, you guys are going to get us kicked off the fucking air.
Like USA is pissed.
Like, you got to stop this shit.
You know, I'm going to have no choice but to fire you guys.
Right.
And we're like, whatever.
They're going crazy to some degree.
You could say whatever.
No, we were thinking whatever.
We weren't saying it.
And then there was two things on that.
One is at one point, USA was out of their mind.
We did a show and they sent us a letter that there's a skit that we do that is, it looked like a presidential.
Clinton had just done the I did not have sex with that, you know, sexual relations with that young intern.
He had just done that speech.
USA Network sends us a letter saying, and it was ridiculous, like DX has gone too far.
So from, here's the controls.
From the hours of eight to nine, they can no longer say these words.
They can no longer refer to their genitalia.
They can no longer say this.
These words are acceptable.
These are not.
Brawl was eight to 11, I believe, right?
Yeah.
It was eight to 10.
Okay, eight to ten.
So then it was, you know, during the nine o'clock to 10 o'clock hour, they can say these words, but they can't say these.
And we were like, this is ridiculous.
And Vince came to us and he was like, you guys happy?
No?
They put restrictions on us.
And this is what we can and can't do.
What do we want to do here?
And we were like, this is going to sound fucked up, but let us use that.
Let us use that.
We'll do a skit tonight to open the show where we say all this shit that's on.
So now you're continuing to blur reality with wrestling.
And it feels so much more real to the audience because this is a real memo that you've gotten from USA Network.
So we do this presidential, almost like this.
We're in the Oval Office and we do this presidential thing, but it breaks down between Sean and I where he's like, God damn it.
I'm like, fuck, you can't say that, dude.
Shut the fuck up.
You're like, right, we're swearing.
They're beeping out the swears and this whole thing.
And then he ends it with, and I did not have sex with that young intern.
Matter of fact, I was up all night.
And that's sort of the skit.
And we do it.
And, you know, I think Vince was partially nervous and he's a rebel in a Maverick spirit.
So I think partially he was like, fuck you.
And we put it out there.
And the next week we got a letter back from USA.
Congratulations on the ratings.
Funny how you used our skit against our own thing against us, but it worked.
Congratulations.
And that was the last they criticized us.
At this point, does Vince start to realize this thing that you're trying to usher in, which is blending reality and wrestling?
Yes.
And same with Steve and some other people.
Characters start to change.
They're open to me not being called Hunter Hearst Helmsley anymore.
Like, hey, what do you want to be known as?
He came to me and was like, you want to use your real name?
And I was like, yeah, not really.
I have time and stuff invested in this.
Everybody called me Triple H backstage.
I was like, let's just break it down to the nickname Triple H and slowly over time, I'll change the character from what I am to where I want it to be.
And he was like, okay.
But there also comes a time when now you're talking about like scripted and what he can control and he can.
Vince, a control freak.
So one time we walk into TV and I didn't consider that.
You could push his hands now.
Now that we're blending things from the real world and the wrestling world, you could do something in the real world that forces him to incorporate it in a story in the wrestler.
So if you're a control freak, you're like, I can't let the inmates run this.
This is the ultimate, the inmates run the asylum.
Okay, so how does handle it?
So he's blending, he's trying to blend his position from being the boss and us doing what we want to do.
And I'll tell two stories about it.
So one is that we walk into TV one day and Sean walks up.
I walk in and he walks up to me.
He's like, have you seen this yet?
I'm like, no, what's that?
He's like, it's a script.
I'm like, what do you mean a script?
He's like, this is what they want us to say tonight.
And I'm like, I read it and I'm like, it's terrible.
And he's like, yeah, we're not fucking doing that.
Wait, you never had scripts before for any of the promos you could?
No, he would give us the premise of what, you know, you need to talk about this or whatever.
And we'd go out and do our own thing.
It's probably easier than memorizing like a whole script.
Yeah, sure.
This has ebbed and flowed in this manner, right?
Like, and so, uh, yeah, like so.
He gives us his script, and Sean and I go to his office, and we're like, What is this?
And he's like, That's the script for tonight.
And Sean's like, It's terrible.
And he's like, That's what I want you to say.
And Sean, Sean, because Sean's the elder guy now, so he's he's the stageman for the group.
And he says, Uh, he goes, Well, fuck.
Oh, now that this thing's over, you guys are going to tell us how to do it.
And Vince goes, Yeah, that's what I want you to say.
And Sean goes, Well, it sucks, and I'm not fucking saying it.
And Vince goes, Well, I need you to say, I need you to go out there and I want you to read, say what's on that paper.
I want you to read it.
And Sean goes, Here's the fucking problem: You think like the honeymooners is funny.
We think Beavis and Butthead is funny, and you don't even fucking know what that shit is.
He said, You're not in touch with these kids, and we're not fucking that this is not what we do.
And Vince goes, Well, I don't care.
That's what I want you to say.
And this is where Sean, sometimes Sean would do shit.
And I would think, like, how does this guy get away with this without getting fired?
Like, he really crumpled up the paper and threw it at Vince and bounced it off his chest.
And he said, Why are you fucking saying it?
And he walked out of the office.
And I was like, Yeah, I'm with him.
On the way out, you're like, And then, and we went and did our shit.
But holy shit, that's why I think it's so different from the perception of the money.
But you have to understand he sees it working.
And he, what he truly cares about is what works.
Yeah.
So he's trying to exert power and force, but at the same time, you know, as long as it works, he's going to ride it.
Yes.
You better go.
If you're going to say, fuck, you ain't saying that, and you're going to walk into the crush and you better crush it.
And it better work.
Otherwise, see you.
Thanks for coming.
Sorry, I was going to want to ask you.
Do you think the pressure he was putting on you guys was from like the old guard that wanted him to do something the classic way?
Yeah, to a degree.
And also he's fighting that.
He's the old guard also.
So he's fighting it, but he's seeing like this is not.
Ratings are ratings.
Yeah, this is, God damn, this is crazy.
This is not our business.
But yet again, right?
And then once he realizes like, okay, shit's on.
Once he learns it.
And he applies it.
And we're in this war with WCW where we're getting our ass handed to us.
And he realizes like, wow, all of a sudden now DX, Austin at the forefront of that, but DX, Austin, you know, all these guys, it's starting to change.
We're starting to pick up momentum now again.
So now he's going with it because he's in a war.
So one thing about Vince, he ain't losing.
So he'll do anything to win.
He fucking.
Sorry, when you look back on that paper moment, the script, is there any part of you?
I just think Vince is such like a kind of, he's playing chess guy.
You think he's like, I know they're not going to do this.
I just want them to remember.
Maybe, maybe, this is just going to rile them up and go cut a better.
But there's also this interesting thing with him.
I remember one time we did a, I don't remember what it was about, but we did a promo where I was going to cut a promo on Vince.
Okay.
This is without him knowing.
He knows I'm going to cut a promo.
Yeah.
But it's live TV.
But on Vince?
He knows I'm going to cut a promo on him and he's going to be out there because at this point he's still an interviewer.
That's right.
He hasn't become the boss.
The Montreal thing hasn't happened yet.
So this is important that everybody is understanding right now.
So at this point in time, there is no like blend, right, with his role and his character.
People know he's the boss, but he's the interviewer.
And we're starting to blend that where we're telling people he's the boss and he runs it, but he's still interviewing people like he's not.
So we haven't fully just gone all in.
He doesn't become Mr. McMahon, the boss owner, until the Bret Hart Montreal stuff happens.
Then he goes fully, right?
But so we're about to go out there and cut this promo.
And they're telling me you need to cut a promo on Vince.
And who is they?
Just the producer creative.
And Vince is like, yeah, so when, hey, when we get out there, you know, Sean's going to go off on me.
I need you to go off on me, cut a promo on me.
And I'm like, so I go to him beforehand and I'm like, hey, how hard do you want me to go on you?
And he's like, say whatever you want.
Sure.
And I'm like, you sure about that?
He's like, say whatever you want.
So we get out there and I don't even remember what I said, but I start to cut the promo on him.
And like, Vin's a very intense person.
So as I start to cut the promo on him, all of a sudden I see his eyes change and his whole demeanor changes.
And I'm like, fuck.
Yeah.
I just crossed the line here.
But I finished the promo and I can see now he's like, whatever I said, I don't even remember what it was, sort of stuck with him.
And so when we came back and he came back a little later, I was like, hey, you okay with that promo?
And he was like, yeah, it's fucking fine.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
But what he was basically was saying is, yeah, you crossed the line with me, but it was good.
It was good business.
It was good business.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, you know, if it was good for business, he was all in.
Right.
And that was the thing.
So to go back to the original story, which is the Stone Cold stuff.
Yeah, so I get punished for King of the Ring.
I'm not going to be King of the Ring.
I'm out.
All that stuff.
Who they put in that spot is sort of coming out of a similar thing.
The ringmaster, Steve Austin, who's just like this technically gifted wrestler.
Steve hates it.
Steve goes and pitches to Vince.
I don't like this character.
I want to do my own thing.
Stone Cold Steve Austin starts to form.
So they take me out of the spot.
They go with Steve.
Steve wins King of the Ring and cuts the Austin 316 promo.
Well, keep in mind, he's going against Jake the Snake, who at the time became very religious.
Yes.
Which is a really important thing to understand.
100%.
So there's signs everywhere: John 316 in support of Jake Roberts because he is very religious, because he's sort of reformed, evangelical, maybe drug addict at the time.
And so Steve goes out there and cuts this Austin 316 promo, which at the time, I believe, Vince was pissed about and hated it.
You crossed the line into the story.
Yeah, like this is terrible.
It's all this thing.
And I believe they went with the Austin.
Everybody else was like, not everybody, but there's a few people who are like, I'm telling you, that was, did you hear the reaction?
It was great.
They made the first Austin 316 shirts as a Vince was like, I make those shirts.
I guarantee you, none of them sell.
Make them.
And they did it.
And then they sold.
And Vince was like, this is great.
Now he ran with it.
But the line was, he goes, he goes, yeah, you got your John 316.
Selling John 316's Bet00:04:27
Well, Austin 316 said, I just whooped your ass.
Yes.
And it's just off the cuff.
Yes.
If he's wrestling, anybody else who's non-religious, he never says it.
And then it ends up becoming that is like the defining line, I think, for Stone Cold's character.
To this day, Austin 316 shirts are still one of our biggest selling what?
I think people know Austin 316 more than John 316.
Like the world is more aware of Austin 316.
I don't know John 316 to this day.
Yeah, I don't know him at all.
I don't think I'm going to be able to do it.
And I started watching for like a few years in the editor era after the Austin 316.
And I'm not a Christian kid.
So I was like, what?
Is that like a time of day that you beat somebody up?
Now it's become a date 316.
She's Austin Day.
It's like this.
Just talk about cultural relevance, right?
Yeah.
Oh, unbelievable.
Okay.
So, what's happened?
You're watching this transpire, right?
That's supposed to be your shot.
You're supposed to have that moment.
You're supposed to cut some promo.
Hunter 316.
Are you pissed?
Is there a part of you that's excited for him?
Have you accepted a different fate?
Steve was one of the few guys.
Like Steve, when I started in WCW, he was there stunning Steve Austin.
He's in the middle somewhere.
And but he was one of the guys that was like, I'm a new kid coming in the door.
And, you know, that's at that time, especially very tough in the business breaking in and young and trying to get started.
And Steve was one of the few guys that would talk to me a lot and like come over and say, hey, dude, I noticed you were doing this.
Maybe try that, whatever.
Dude, this is, and the parallels with comedy are funny because I remember every like OG comedian that was nice to me coming up.
Yeah, that was kind to you that helped you.
Because there aren't a lot.
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
There are not a lot.
And far more just ignore you or you're in the way.
And you remember those moments.
You're just ignored.
Yeah.
And yeah.
And so Steve was one of those guys.
So even when Steve came in and, you know, I liked him a lot.
And I, it's a weird thing in the business.
Like once that wasn't happening for me, I just put it out of my mind.
And I was happy for Steve.
As my career progressed later, it's a funny thing how life works.
Like I look back at that now and I think if I wasn't ready, I fucking wasn't ready.
And I thought I was.
You always think you are.
You always think you are.
And you believe that you're ready.
I was not.
If they would have put me in that role, I wouldn't have cut my version of an Austin 316.
I wouldn't have been ready.
It would have floundered and I probably would have.
It's a great way of looking at it.
Yeah.
And I know that now.
I can look back at that and say, like, I was pissed at the time or I was upset or disappointed.
I was using it to fuel me to do other things and become something more.
But the truth is, I would have fucked that up.
Dude, knowing failure or getting comfortable in failure is very liberating.
Because when you only know the rise and the success, and you go, you have some success WCW, then you come over to WWE and you're starting to rise.
And then all of a sudden you get the king of ring and then you're online to get the belt and then you get the belt.
You constantly have this monkey on your back where you're like, fuck, what if it all goes away?
But once you've accepted it all going away, it's already gone away.
And what happened?
I just came back from it.
So now you have that courage to be like, okay, I'll go heal.
I'll fuck it up all over again.
Where I bet a lot of guys, and I'm curious your take on this, but like they're at the top, they're a babyface, and they're probably reluctant to go heal because they might go, what if I never get this chance?
Yeah, 100%.
Well, you also get guys that are petrified of being a babyface, because if you're a babyface and they start to boo you, you're failing.
Oh, that's different pressure.
If they boo you as a bad guy, you're doing it.
It's easy to make somebody pissed off at you.
I actually even thought about this.
Well, and even just think about it this way: if you're trying to piss them off, but they start to like you, which is why you find a lot of cool bad guys.
This is DX.
Yeah.
Like, weren't you guys supposed to be kind of healing?
And then you start bullying the babyfaces, and then you guys kind of become babyfaces.
Well, we were bad guys, and then Sean gets injured and Sean leaves.
And I reformed the group with these other guys.
Bullying Babyfaces to Heal00:15:10
Right, right.
In that moment, we almost like they're so excited to see the group carry on.
Yeah.
And the stuff we just transitioned who we were doing it to to the other side.
And we, WCW at that point in time, is on the attack.
We, DX, do the unthinkable and we go to their show.
I go to their show with a fucking tank and my crew, and I'm firing shots at the like fake shots at the building and on a megaphone, you know, yelling at their fans.
And we're outside and it's like a riot.
We go to their shows.
Unthinkable, but it made us like the coolest.
The real baddest.
Yeah.
And now, like, hey, these degenerates that six months ago we hated and literally Sean and I had gotten to a point where we had some riots in towns because we big people did like us so much.
Now, all of a sudden, we're like, as probably it could be because we're defending the brand.
Guys, very quickly, we have to interrupt this episode to give some credit for probably the biggest sports fan on the panel, Mark Gagnon for having the only winning bracket in the United States of America.
He called the number one seed winning it.
Yeah, I can't believe it.
I mean, how did you put that together?
How did you?
I don't understand.
This is what makes Mark's Madness so amazing is you never know what's going to happen.
Did you call it Mark's Madness?
It is Mark's Madness.
Yeah, exactly.
It is Mark's Madness, bro.
I just had a feeling.
I'm from Florida.
I just had faith in the Gator.
Now, did you go to Stake, the leader in global betting and U.S. social casinos, to put some money down?
Mark put some money down.
How much you won?
$25.
What?
So I'm up.
I'm up.
I'm up big.
I was like, I'm basically a 10X win.
Okay, now that we know that you can literally predict sporting events.
Yes.
Are there some people?
Trump wins third term.
I have a good feeling, dude.
He's running back.
So outside of that, guaranteed victory.
Yeah, yeah.
What about UFC?
What do we have?
314?
314.
Yeah, what about our boy Volk?
Is he going to pull it off?
Yeah, 100%.
So you're going with Volk, 100%.
Second round knockout.
Whoa.
So that would be considered a top sport.
Who's fighting?
Diego.
No, not Diego Lopez.
Because that changes things a little bit, depending on who he's fighting.
How do you know he's going to win?
But no, I'm just saying he's going to win.
It just depends who he's fighting.
If he's fighting someone's favorite, it is Diego Lopez.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, if it's Diego Lopez, yeah, that's second round knockout.
Okay, so Mark is going to second round knockout.
UFC 314.
Are you saying Diego Lopez is a big fat pussy?
Is that what you're saying?
No, no, just compare to Volk.
Mark is that?
Compared to Volk, he's going to lose.
Second round knockout.
To me, I don't know.
I think he's saying Diego Lopez sucks.
Well, let's get a picture of Daniel.
Mark talks shit about all the guys that don't speak good enough English to come on a pod.
Leon Edwards, great guy.
Very good old man.
That guy fucking English.
Both of these guys are badass.
Holy shit.
He's an ass.
This guy's all level on the spectrum, dude.
I've seen this guy.
I'm wondering if you're not.
He's got Schultz's old haircut.
What's going on?
Yeah, no, that's Sayron Knockout for sure.
Okay.
So if you are going to bet on, if you're going to bet on USA 314 and other top sports and political events, use the promo code Flagrant for your welcome bonus at stake, man.
Go to stake right now.
Now let's get back to this interview.
I don't want to brush this one part off because I think it's very important in your lore.
Sean has like a bad back injury, right?
Yes.
I think he wrestles.
Who does he wrestle WrestleMania is at Stone Coast?
Yeah, he wrestles Austin.
And then I think Mike Tyson is the ref.
Yes.
Like massive match.
Aussie puts Austin over, retires for a little bit, right?
Because of the back.
Four years.
Now, so far at this point in your career, you've always been like with the top guy.
Because when I was with Sean, right, I'm on the rise, but I'm in the middle somewhere.
Sure, but like you're connected to Sean.
Now, or before you were maybe connected to the click, even though it was backstage, but there was a connection.
So this is the first time in your career where now you are at the helm.
Yes.
And you asked Vince, and I remember you cut a promo where you like acknowledge Sean, but then you very quickly move on.
Can you just tell me what's going on through your head right there?
Because there's a big transition.
So when we were doing DX, Sean and I were, we had wanted to make the group bigger.
And we liked Road Dog and we liked Billy Gunn.
Yeah.
Billy Gunn.
Xbox was actually in WCW at the time.
Right.
So we had said, look, Road Dog was like Jesse James and Billy was rockabilly.
I mean, he was terrible, terrible shit.
And we were like, look, put these guys together as a tag team.
Let them start to do their own thing.
And if it starts to get over, when the time is right, we'll put them with us and we'll make the group bigger.
But we can build two young stars out of this.
They start to work together.
It actually starts to work.
They call them the New Age Outlaws and it starts to work on their own.
So we're like, we're telling Vince, like, let them do their own thing.
When the time is right, we'll pull them in, but let them do their own thing right now.
And they're loosely associated with us.
We would do things like, for example, they were trying to get going.
DX was pretty over.
They wanted to do a program with New Age Outlaws and the Road Warriors.
Road Warriors didn't want to do it.
They wanted to work with us.
We just shot an angle with them on TV where we beat the shit out of them with Shave Hawks, Mohawk off, and all this stuff.
They thought Road Warriors thought they were getting into a storyline with DX.
What we did was, as soon as we started to get the heat, we let Billy and Road Dog do it.
And we kind of stood off to the side and they did all the big damage.
And they ended up, Road Warriors ended up in a program with them, which they didn't want to be in.
Right.
We just, we just backed out of it.
So we had had those guys associated with us, but not with us.
Sean gets injured.
Sean goes to WrestleMania, which is like this nightmare.
And, you know, at that point in time, Sean also was legendary drug problems and all this stuff.
But now Sean goes away.
And I think a lot of people thought that was it.
I'm done.
You know, I'm never going to get past where I am.
Whatever.
We talked about re like, let's let me take the helm.
And what is your pitch?
Sort of, let's do the same group, but let me take the helm.
Let's bring in Billy and Road Dog, New Age Outlaws, which were kind of over on their own now.
Let's put them in it.
We'll reform DX.
And X-Pac, whose contract he was in WCW.
Let's bring him back over.
His contract was up and he couldn't, he was dying to get out of there because at that point they were pretty fucked up, that whole group.
So he left.
The timing was perfect.
So he just signed with us.
He popped over.
So the night after WrestleMania or whatever it is, I go out there and I cut a promo basically on Sean saying like, you told me Tyson was good.
He wasn't.
You told me you had this.
Don't worry about it, kid.
And you didn't, you know, like it was a problem.
Well, you're out.
I'm in.
So now.
So you act as if you kick him out of the yeah.
Now I'm taking the fucking lead.
So now what do you do if you need to, if you need to start an army?
You go find yourself, you go find your blood, right?
You find your soldiers.
I bring in the new age outlaws.
I bring in kid.
And are you scared at all?
Are you like, maybe, is there like a, what is that called?
Imposter syndrome happening at all?
Yeah.
Where you're like, they only like Sean.
Well, it's, it's the, you know, everybody else is saying this isn't going to work.
There's a lot of people, this isn't going to work.
It's not going to work.
He doesn't have it.
Those other guys are, they don't have it.
Like, it's not going to work.
It's Sean was the glue.
Sean was the key.
Sean was this.
So what makes it work?
We made it work.
Because it, some people would say that it got even bigger.
It got even bigger.
Okay.
It did.
It got even bigger.
And that was the thing.
So at that point, you know, and we still have China with me, which she was a glue to that thing.
But sort of in that, in that realm, you know, I knew that night when I went out there to cut that promo with Kid and Billy and all that stuff and restart the group.
It needed to be like I needed to go out there and hit a home run or they're going to, Vince is very quickly going to go, everybody's right and move on because he's believing in it.
Yep.
And he wants to see it work.
So he's giving me the ball.
And we just went out there and, you know, my opinion, we knocked it out of the park and then they went with it.
And the rest is history, you know.
And it was, it was set up well.
And, you know, we had other people to work with Nation of Domination was coming up at that point in time with rock and all that stuff.
So we had all these other people to work with, and it just took off.
And we would just do the crazy shit.
And then, sort of, as we that, that version of the group started to become popular.
And then we get into the WCW stuff where we go on the attack after them.
And then it's just a game changer.
So when you go on the attack, right?
Now we're blending the worlds again.
That's a real business of rivalry.
This is not, you know, scripted storylines here.
This is you guys are beefing and you are attacking their brand.
Yes.
And at this point, is Vince completely on with having to blend the worlds?
And now wrestling has to be more real?
Yes.
And he's also into the whatever it takes.
Gloves are off, whatever it takes.
So there's no more like protecting the old guard.
No.
The old guard is to say.
There's a moment where when we're going to do the first attack at WCW, we're going to go because what they were doing was if we were going into an arena, they would book, they would book one of their TV shows like either same time or right before ours so that our ticket sales would tank, right?
Booking the club down the street.
Yep, yep, you tried to you, right?
And that was what was pissing us off.
Well, they were right down the street was their show.
You roll up with the tank.
So we rolled up with the tank.
And when we were getting ready to go do it, our show at that point in time, we were like, they were live like an hour earlier than we were.
And then we were live later.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we go there early, we shoot this stuff and we bring it back.
And before we leave, we're all standing in a group because the only one that knew about this prior to us doing it was me.
I was on a call with Vince and a few other guys on the writing team.
Billy and Dog and Kid didn't know anything about it.
They came to me like, see a military shit up or logo on it.
Like, what the fuck are we doing?
And I was like, dude, I can't tell you yet.
Vince wants to tell you guys, but I'm telling it's fucking badass.
Yeah.
And it all stemmed off of a phone call where we were on, and they were like down the road.
And Vince was pissed.
And on that phone call, it was said, like, fan, I'd like to drive a tank down there and just fucking go nuts.
And he was like, ding.
Why don't we do that?
Right.
And, um, but anyway, so somebody says when we get, we're in the back end ready to go.
And they were like, look, we're going to go down there and do this early, but we're not on the air yet.
What if they finish their show and they send a truckload of guys down here to our show?
Like, we probably should get extra security and have this all beefed up so they can't.
And Vince goes, why?
He goes, if they, if they roll up with a truck full of wrestlers here, he goes, open the fucking door up and let them in.
What show are you going to watch?
The one with no wrestlers on it?
Or the one with all the wrestlers on?
That's great.
And I was like, this guy gets why we're going to work.
Yeah.
And because what they did when we got there, we tried to go in their building.
Oh, we went down the ramp and they put the door down.
Wow.
And they stopped us.
And you're filming this whole time.
We're filming the whole time banging on the door.
You pushes one.
Yeah, yeah.
Now they look scared.
Yeah, you weren't worried at all.
Shit getting real because like you're hurting their business, their industry.
It could, it could.
Like we had a this is so stupid.
We had like a whole contingency plan of where like if they come out, if somebody touches one of us, we had like a fake camera and a real camera.
If somebody touches one of us, I'm going to go down and because they'll come at me first.
I'm going to make such a commotion that everybody will look to me, switch out the cameras, take the real tape and get the fuck out of here.
Wow.
So you destroy the camera, you smash it, do something.
Whatever I got.
Destroyed, it doesn't matter.
Do whatever I got to do.
Got it.
But, but so you're willing to get your ass beating.
Yeah, but the wrestlers aren't going to.
Okay.
Everybody will talk shit and stuff like that.
But for the most part, they know the business, too.
Yeah.
And so what's funny is we're outside doing this.
Kevin Nash is coming back from the gym with Lex Luger, and he looks over.
He's like, somebody's got a tank on the side of the business, which really is just a Jeep with a cannon on it.
He's like, what's going on?
That's so hilarious.
So you call it a tank.
Yeah, it's not a tank.
It's a Wrangler.
It has become a tank over the years, but it was never a tank.
And but Kevin said he's like stuck in traffic.
They're coming back from the gym.
And now he like pokes his head out the sunroof and he's like, Looks like Hunter.
What are they doing?
You know, so he goes in the building now, and they used to call their production office the war room.
Yeah.
And Kevin goes in the war room and he said, like, they're all in there talking about the show and stuff.
And he goes, he's like looking around the room and he goes, none of you guys are concerned with what's going on outside.
And they're like, what are you talking about?
And he goes, DX outside the building shooting a cannon off and with a loud horn and thousands of fans all around him.
Like, none of you are worried about that shit.
And they were like, what?
You know, that's how they got informed of it.
Hilarious.
And then that's when we started coming down the ramp and that's when they shoved them.
Do you think other wrestlers in WCW knew it was over at that point?
I don't know.
To me, that's like, oh, I think at that point, it's a funny thing.
We were scratching and clawing.
I think for the most part, the guys in WCW were less concerned about the company and more concerned about they're paying me a ton of money and I don't work much.
So it's interesting.
It's like the incentive structures makes you want to put other guys over.
This might also be your personality, but even when you're telling these stories, you're talking about putting other guys over, which seems like the right thing to do for the business.
Yes.
It's a very rare thing in a narcissistic endeavor, which is entertainment, that there's someone who's going, How else can I put these different people over?
What can I do?
You even talking about the different groups, right?
Yeah, you're going to bring them into DX, but they're not ready.
Once we, at this point, we'll do it.
WCW's incentive structure is just show up.
You don't have to worry about the business at all.
And at that point, it had started to become: it doesn't even matter if you show up.
Your pay is guaranteed.
Oh, wow.
I'm injured.
You fast forward not long after that because it was this was Austin was champ.
And Steve and I wrestle in Chicago at the Rosemont, which is now all State Arena.
And then the United Center is on the other side of town, right?
They were at the United Center the week before us.
Same what I'm talking about, them booking, right?
We had booked Rosemont.
Yeah.
They booked the United Center like the week before us.
Steve and I wrestled in a main event that night.
Booking Rosemont vs United Center00:16:32
We probably went like 40 minutes.
We like we give them a full-on pay-per-view like because Rosemont sold out.
Like we're all in delivering on everything we do.
And so that night we go back to hotels, a lot of fans there.
And I'll never forget people telling us, like, dude, you guys killed it.
WCW was here last week.
We went to that show.
Like six of the top 10 guys didn't show up.
Wow.
You know, the main event was Goldberg versus Big Show.
Big Show, I mean, the giant at the time.
Giant walked out smoking a cigarette.
They got in a ring.
Goldberg kicked him in the gut, gave him the suplex, and the whole match was like 15 seconds.
But they just didn't.
They didn't care, right?
We were fighting tooth and nail like we're turning this thing around.
And they didn't care.
And they were just, they were phoning it in.
And I think at that point, shit was so miserable backstage that they were just, they were phoning it in.
Wow.
And that's, you know, that's the difference, right?
Like at the end of the day.
So, you know, we were getting to a place where at that point, this might take a little time, but we're going to win this.
We'll crush these guys.
I wanted to ask about character development.
Like, you've mentioned a few different wrestlers that, you know, you kind of been like, oh, yeah, their gimmick at that time wasn't that good.
And even in your own career, there's so many different iterations before we get to Triple H, the character that we know now.
So I'm curious, how do you develop a wrestling character, find the wrestling voice, the gimmicks that work?
And if a young wrestler came to you today, like, hey, here's how I want to develop, like, what advice would you give them?
It's, it's part of the difficult aspect of what we do is you teach somebody to do the moves, you can teach them when to do them, you can kind of teach them crowd psychology, but the charisma and who you are, your, your character.
It's like, you know, in comedy, everybody, everybody's got like not everybody.
Some people just very funny.
Other people have to have a shtick and a gimmick of what they are.
And no one can really tell you, like, hey, you know what, you should like, when I was a kid, Bobcat Goldwaite was like a big thing.
He's like the crazy voice and all this shit.
Like, nobody could go to him and go, you know what you should do?
This will work.
Yeah, you know what you should do?
You should affect your voice and do all this crazy shit and stuff like that.
Right.
That was just him.
It's really hard to tell somebody how to go do their thing.
For us, as we were pulling into the attitude era, I say this a lot.
Taker used to say to me all the time, as we got to be friends, he would like we'd go out or whatever.
And then, you know, end of the night, he'd almost always say to me, dude, when you figure out how to be yourself on camera, you're going to make a fortune.
And I would always think to him, what the fuck does that mean?
Is this while you're wearing the riding pants and you have the bow in your hair?
Some of it, yeah.
But when you, when, when you, even then, after, right, when we start to like, that was kind of the him saying, like, like DX was way more us, but I still wasn't fully like I was trying to get out of the Hunter Hurst-Helmsley stuff.
Yeah.
I didn't feel like it was right for me just to one day stop and be something totally different.
You have to build to it.
Yeah.
So when we get to the end of DX, the run as babyfaces, there's a moment where I go to Vince and I'm like, I want out of the group.
And he was like, why?
I said, I want to turn heel.
Austin is white hot.
Rock is on his way up, but he's going to be a babyface, a white-made babyface.
Like there's, there's no.
He's so charismatic.
There's no way he doesn't become that babyface.
We need the Darth Vader in this, right?
You got two good guys.
This is so smart.
You need the bad guy.
Yeah.
I'm confident enough in myself.
I can be that bad guy, but I got to get out of this group and I got to make the shift.
And the other guys were like, what are you doing?
Yep.
Yep.
Because you're also white hot.
You're like, why would you leave this?
Yeah, don't ride this into the ground.
We're making a fortune on merch and everything else.
Don't do this.
Like, don't do it.
And I was like, but this is not what I want to do.
So how, how, because you understand the only way that you're going to get those big main events and then maybe get the belt is that you have to play something opposite that is super white hot right now.
It's not even necessarily, obviously everybody wants to be champion at some point at time in their career or something like that, but it's not even about that.
It's about being on top.
Yeah.
Right.
Like you don't have to be champion.
You just got to, how do you break through to be like the undertaker?
One of the guys.
Yep.
Yep.
You know, and that where your shit resonates and sticks and stays generationally and all that stuff.
Like, how do you get into that place?
And I knew for me, it wasn't while what we were doing was amazing, that wasn't, that wasn't the setup for me.
When I leave the group, now it's a full transition.
Now I go to trunks.
Now I take my hair down.
I wet my hair.
I start growing a beard a little bit.
Like I start to grow.
Now I become what I always envisioned myself being as a performer.
And I sort of realized, like Taker's words were, when you can be yourself, when you can just go out there and be authentic, but the hardest thing in the world to do when a red light is on you and there's 10,000 people there is go out and just be you.
Because it's because if you fail as you, if you fail as you, and it's, it's so, um, it's a scary proposition.
Yeah.
You're naked out there.
Yeah.
The character is like a security blanket.
Of course, if you don't like that, you don't like that.
If they hate the character and they hate the character, they don't hate you.
Yes.
When you start being yourself.
100%.
And so that, you know, and that's still even then, that becomes a transition of getting there over time.
But it's, it's, it's a scary proposition.
But I was all in on I want to take that gamble and I want to see if I can get to be that guy.
Okay.
How many other wrestlers, and now that you're the boss, understand the game like you understood it at that time and are coming to you and asking similar questions.
And so there's a lot of people that do.
I just had this conversation with Sean, and this will piss off everybody.
I had this conversation with Sean and I had it with Taker as well within the last year because we were talking about like people helping to guide the business into the next generation and writing and storytelling and all that stuff.
And I said it to Sean first.
I said, Sean, think about your career, everybody that you've run up against in your career.
How many people would you say absolutely 100% get it?
Not a portion of it, not a piece of it, like get it.
Get the modes of storytelling, get the how to get the most out of something, get all aspects of what we do.
How many people would you say?
And he was like, well, I'm wrong, man.
I bet you I could count him on one hand.
Right.
And that's, that's considering greats in our business and all that stuff.
And he's like, I bet you I could count on one hand.
I said, I think it would be a struggle to fill up all the fingers on one hand.
Really?
Wow.
Right?
Like, it's a different thing.
And people don't get it.
The amount of factors that go into creating something, getting a character, doing all those things.
And then it's easy to look at it.
And this is all stuff that I learned over, you know, 25 years.
What are they?
What are they?
Bring it down.
Like, it's, it's, it's just so many things it's hard to even put into context because like every everything matters.
So why don't you just do this with this guy?
This would get him over.
Well, you can't do this at this time because this guy is doing this and this doesn't work with that.
And this guy got injured and that takes away from this.
Oh, by the way, they hate each other.
They won't work together.
It won't be good.
These factors don't work.
I'm also getting pressure from the network to do this and I don't have this and we can't do that time-wise.
Right.
There's all these factors of you're building out this elaborate set of dominoes set up.
And then if one of them comes out, you got to start all over because they all affect each other, you know, and you don't think about it that way.
So the amount of thought and being able to see ahead of what's going to happen next is incredibly difficult.
And that doesn't mean you're right all the time.
Yeah.
It doesn't mean that at all.
You could be wrong.
You can understand all that, still be wrong 80% of the time, you know, whatever.
But it's, it's the feel.
Pat Patterson was one of the greatest finish guys in our business.
And, you know, the generation that was just slightly before me of talent that came in when I first came in was all like, you know, as they're teaching you things, they'd be like, let me teach you something here.
I learned this from Pat, right?
But I was fortunate enough to sit under the learning tree.
That was Vince.
And when I say learning tree, I mean the things of what to do and what not to do, right?
I was fortunate enough to sit around Pat where when Pat was there, every day when we'd finish a production meeting, Pat would be like, what are you going to do?
I'm going to get something.
You want to meet me in the stands?
We'll talk about this show.
We'd start putting shit together.
And like, I'm learning all these from all these people.
And, you know, Pat would always say, the wrestling business isn't here.
It's here.
Right.
And he was the first one to say that to me.
He would be like, think about everybody you know in the business.
How many people feel it here?
Not many.
It comes out of here.
But the guys that really feel, he's like, they're few and far between.
I imagine those are the guys that have the greatest longevity in the business.
It is.
It is because they can feel when to ebb and flow and change and move and do all those things.
And Pat would say to me all the time, there's a lot of guys here that are amazing.
They don't feel.
This isn't where it comes from from them.
And he first time he told me that, he said, you feel it.
So you get this feeling.
You're like, I can be one of those guys.
This is my pathway to being one of those guys.
How do you set that story in motion?
You can't just go, I'm leaving the group.
There needs to be a reason to leave the group.
Yeah.
So it's a little convoluted at the time, right?
In that, in that moment in time, like I sort of Vince has, Vince has now become a full-on character.
He's got a faction called the Corporation.
I turn on DX to go with the corporation, but the corporation's like this hodgepodge of all these different people and it kind of really doesn't work out well.
It just becomes this mess of stuff.
So you're just trying to navigate.
It's like I pop out of this thing that's working and I pop over here, but now I've, it's like going back.
A lot of times people think that that stuff, like you're, you're here.
So then you move into something else and you just go here.
You might have to take a second.
It rarely works that way.
You're here and I want to get here, but over here, you got to go here and then build back up to that.
Sometimes it can work where you go right there, but more times than not, I feel like whenever there's a complete shift in what you do, you go back and start over at the beginning.
Is this the Stephanie storyline?
This comes into it a little bit later.
So which is the Stephanie one?
The Steph storyline.
Okay, so you're already there.
So I sort of get the opportunity.
I'm put in that position where I'm world champion.
You know, this is at a point in time where they're flipping titles around a lot too.
It's just different time in the business.
But I'm in that sort of mix where I'm being seen in the Austin Rock conversation, the Taker conversation.
I'm in that mix.
I've been champ.
I can't remember if I was champ once or twice at that point in time, but I'm champ.
And Steph, it's a funny thing because people's thoughts about how this happened are different.
I have this really strong creative relationship with Vince.
I know he has a daughter, but I don't, I've never even really met her.
And then she starts to be around the company, but I'm not working with her much or anything like that.
But she's in a storyline with another wrestler, this guy Tess.
And they are engaged to be married.
The lead writer at the time.
He leaves the company in the middle of this.
And, you know, I've heard him say that he knew exactly where the storyline was going.
Just nobody else did.
Just this one showed up.
So when he leaves, there's like this giant gap where like Vince's daughter is engaged with this guy.
And to be honest, I hadn't even been paying that much attention to that storyline.
Is just concerned with my shit more often, right?
But and I had a great creative relationship with Vince, but so they so don't know where to go with this thing that they've announced this wedding's going to be on TV.
They have to do a thing where she gets hit in the head with a garbage can and loses her memory and doesn't remember who the fiancé is to just to buy some time so they can try to figure out how to get out of this thing.
But there's going to be a wedding on Raw on Raw.
Yes.
And everybody's got worse.
Were they involved in real life?
No, no, no, no.
Oh, okay.
It was just you guys at the time involved at all.
I didn't even really know.
Nothing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But so I know they're trying to figure out a way to get out of this wedding thing.
Yeah.
And meanwhile, I'm in a storyline with Vince where Vince has made it like he's.
He's a babyface at this time, right?
He is.
And he has said, like, I can never have another chance at the title.
Like, he's so pissed off at me.
He bans me from getting world title shots.
And but so we're in the middle of the storyline.
So one day I go to him and I'm like, she's thinking about our shit, right?
Like, and how do how do we get back to getting me in that mix after what we've done?
And he's like, yeah, I don't know.
I'm thinking about that too.
And I'm like, well, the thing with Steph, I said, well, what if she, you know, right before she's going to get married, she has a bachelorette party, you blow it out like some big story on TV.
She has a bachelorette party, but I show up and I, you know, it's a different timeframe.
I'd make you your drink.
And while she's unconscious, I said, it's that you have it in Vegas.
I drive her through one of those wedding chapter things.
And I end up like nobody knows about this, but I've filmed all of it.
And now when the wedding happens, right when they say, speak now, forever, hold your peace, I come out and I'm like, hold on a second.
She can't marry him because she's married to me.
And I show the footage and holy shit, I've ruined your life.
And now we create this storyline where, like, if in order to get your daughter, like this wedding annulled and so she can marry the other guy, you and I have to fight.
And if I beat you, I get the world title shot.
If you beat me, I annull the wedding.
Yeah.
And he's like, God damn, I love it.
So that's what we do.
And this starts Steph and I now.
So originally, it's just supposed to be a one-off thing.
We'd shoot the video in Vegas.
Yeah.
And the video is hilarious when you are Melissa.
Excuse me, this video.
So ridiculous.
It's so ridiculous.
Yeah.
So you going, I do.
Yeah.
It's utterly ridiculous, but it just works, right?
Yeah.
And this is the footage of me out there telling this story.
So originally, it's supposed to be just selling good marriage.
She's great as a girl.
Yeah, she's great.
So it's supposed to be this one-off thing that makes us have the match.
I go over, I get my world title shot.
She moves on, does the rest of the stuff with the testing, but at least gets them out of the wedding, right?
And now it's the decision whether he's going to marry or not.
The first time she goes on TV after this happens, like this is the cynical world we live in.
She goes out on TV and I'm sitting at guerrilla position next to Vince, where we run the show from.
And like, I'm not working.
I'm in the show, right?
At this point, I'm just still a character, a character.
I'm helping out heavy with creative and helping produce stuff, but I'm really just as a character on TV.
And she goes out to cut the promo and I'm sitting next to Vince and she goes out there and they are booing brutal.
And this is unexpected completely.
Well, oh, that's right.
They're calling her like a slut.
Enchanting slut.
She's trying her hardest to be over.
Yeah, to be this sympathetic baby face and all this stuff.
Creative Input During Marriage00:11:45
And Vince taps me and he's like, hey, this is fucking so good.
20,000 people call your daughter a slut.
Yeah, this is money, right?
And sorry, what are you thinking in that moment?
I'm a little bit like, like, holy shit, like, she's got mega heat.
So he looks back and he goes, and I'm like thinking to myself, like, wow, there's, there's like, there's legs to this thing, like that we hadn't, I at least I hadn't considered.
You know, I was just like, just trying to get to my storyline with Vince, and we throw this thing out there, and there's legs on it.
And now we're like, holy cow.
So then, you know, the next week she goes out there as well, all this stuff.
So then Vince comes to me and he's like, what if she, like, what if the worst possible thing happens is like she turns on me.
We have this match at pay-per-view right at the moment in time where, holy shit, Vince might actually do this and beat Triple H.
And who turns on him, but his own daughter to join his worst enemy in the moment of time.
Phenomenal.
Yeah.
And she comes with me and he like he pitches it to me and he's like, and then like, I'm so distraught.
My world is so turned upside down.
I leave.
I leave for a while.
And you guys run the show like as like the boss.
Like she's the boss's daughter.
So she's got all the stroke.
And now you become this maniacal, like tyrant.
Tyrant talent that's, you know, world gets the world title and is just like out of control, firing people and just whatever, you know, and that's kind of starts a thing.
But so as this happens, like, I don't know, Steph at all, sort of.
Sort of.
Yeah.
Well, I don't, but we're working together, right?
So now our storyline becomes the one we believe you, but I, but I don't.
And the thing is, she's a sponge for the business, right?
Like Steph is like, um, she wants nothing but to be in this business.
Right.
So issue, sorry, how do you talk to her about that moment and what she was feeling?
Is she like her dad where she's like, she's thinking the same shit?
Or is she like this?
So she knows the game, right?
She is like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing ever.
Like they're blewing the shit out of me.
Like, you know, she's very savvy.
And she's one of the few people, and I would say this as well.
And people will think, oh, it's your wife.
When I make that small list of people on one hand, I forget it.
She's one of us.
Back to the show.
The promo where you go.
And the question isn't, if we consummated the marriage, it's how many times.
Does this just, are you riffing and you're feeling the audience and going for it?
I didn't even think about that line before I got out there and I was like, oh, I got to say something about, you know, consummating the marriage or whatever.
Like, this is worst.
I'm talking to her dad.
It's like the worst possible thing I can say.
So, you know, does he react at all when you say, like, do you see an eyebrow raise or anything?
No, I mean, he reacts in the ring, but like, he's so good.
And now, like, we're, we're full-on attitude era, like, where this is like, he's all in and he's full character.
And yeah, I mean, so like, I know, like, as we're doing it, I'm like, this is so good.
And, like, he knows it's so good.
This is just he is crazy.
Now all the attention is on this storyline in the biz.
Are there still other things going on?
No, there's other things going on.
But you're feeling.
But this becomes a thing.
And the sort of the McMahon-Helmsley era becomes like the main crux of the story.
You know, like a fire McFoley.
And I, you know, I end up in a match with him and then get him retired and make him retire.
And it's just all this, all this stuff happens.
But sort of at that point in time, this is how Steph and I get to know each other because she's like, if I have a match, she just wants to be there to hear how it all gets put together and how that's all going to work and everything.
So she's around all the time.
Right.
And what's a funny part of the story is I'm talking to my mom one day on the phone and she's like, what's going on with you and that Stephanie?
I said, what are you talking about?
And she's like, I don't know.
Like, you're not that good of an actor.
I can see it in your eye.
Like, what's going on there?
I'm like, this is Vince's daughter.
Like, fucking, nothing's going on.
Like, don't be, don't be crazy.
Presumptuous here, right?
I don't know this at the time, but Steph's mom says to her, like, what, uh, what's the deal with you and Triple H?
Oh, wow.
And she's like, What are you talking about?
It's one of the boys, nothing.
And she's like, I don't know.
I see it in your eyes the way you're looking at him and stuff like that.
Like, you sure there's not something there?
You know, like my mom, her mom both see it on TV, but neither one of us.
Dad got no clue.
No, but he's not.
Steph will say this and I say this.
I believe he started to see it.
And I believe he actually liked it and was trying to push us at that point.
And then there comes a time when we do get together.
And then there's a time where he takes that away, like it's going to cause too much problem in the business.
And you guys can't.
Oh.
You can't see each other.
Even though you guys are already seeing each other at the time.
So now that people know, do people know in the real world that you guys are seeing each other at this point?
Yeah, I don't, I'm not like, I don't remember the exact timing of it, but yeah, they're starting to sort of get it.
And then how, what's the storyline for tearing you guys apart?
Well, there isn't.
We're still in a storyline together.
Right.
But he's just saying personally, on the outside, you got it.
You guys can't, you can't do this.
And did you guys listen as good, obedient soldiers?
We tried.
And then it just doesn't, you know, like when you, when you want something, you guys got to go get it.
Right.
And so we try.
And I honestly think at that point, like, you know, as you asked earlier, like, is he just saying this to try to see what you'll do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I believe there's a lot of that that he was like, no, you guys can't see each other.
Let's see if he really likes myself.
Let's see what he's willing to go through to get it.
And, you know, for me at the time, I'm, I'm sort of gambling everything on, you know, when people say like, oh, well, that's how he got the position and all that.
Like, no, I'm not fucking, I'm like, I'm gambling.
If this doesn't work out, I'm fucked.
Like, I'm done.
But at the same point in time, it's like, you know, when you meet the right person, you got to go for it.
You meet the right person.
And yeah, it becomes this, yeah, it's just this crazy time.
So we're kind of doing this shit on TV.
And, you know, and now everybody's attitude towards me is changing.
Well, I'm already sort of, you know, I'm going to production meetings before this ever happens.
I'm going to production meetings.
I'm creative.
I'm having creative input with Vince.
I'm, you know, people see me all day long.
I'm with Pat Patterson talking over finishes and helping with their shit, which they don't necessarily see as a good or bad thing, but like they just see.
So there's a lot of whether it's jealousy or whatever that is, right?
Now, when the rumor starts that, hey, he's, he might be seeing Steph, that's a whole fucking different ballgame of.
So you're saying other wrestlers were starting to get jealous?
Yeah.
And I don't know if jealous is the right word, but I have a mega heat.
I think the perception, if I'm an insecure entertainer, is which I am.
He's trying to weasel his way into I'm trying to get with Vince's daughter.
So I'm the guy.
You can be a guy.
You're a character, but how did you start having so much influence in the creative?
Like, when did they tap you?
So as I was saying a little bit ago, the guy that's going to leave, the creative guy that's going to leave.
So at that point in time, I was already having, you know, I was talking a lot with Vince.
Sean and I would talk a lot with Vince on the phone about creative directions and he'd ask our opinions about different things here and there.
And so I already had that relationship.
Sean gets hurt, goes away.
Shortly thereafter, the other writer leaves.
When he leaves, I go to Vince and say, I just remember the TV that we were at where the guy left that day.
He just didn't show up that day.
He goes work for WCW.
And as we're getting ready to leave the show, I go to Vince and I say, hey, man, I know how hard this creative shit is.
And when you're trying to do it by yourself with nobody to bounce shit off of, I can't imagine how hard that is.
And he just left you high and dry.
I said, we were done that show.
I was going home for like three or four days.
We would do like 18-day loops on the road or 10-day loops and then go home for three or four and then back out on the road for another 18 or whatever.
So I was getting ready to leave to go home for like three or four days.
And I said to Vince, I said, I know how difficult that's going to be.
I said, I ain't got shit going on.
I didn't have a girlfriend or whatever.
I was just going home.
And I said, if you need to bounce, whatever it's worth, if you need to bounce some ideas off of somebody, I'm going to be home.
And I sort of almost was after I left, I was kind of like, that was fucking stupid.
I don't know.
I should have said it to him.
It was kind of embarrassing, like, like he needs my fucking help.
But I said it and left.
And then I went home.
And like, I don't know, it's like the next day or day after something like that, you know, home.
My phone rings and it's his office.
And hey, Vince, like, talk to you.
And I get on the phone with him.
He's like, hey, the other day you said if I needed to bounce some shit off somebody and, you know, you were home.
You got any time right now?
And I was like, yeah.
What does he hit you with?
He just started hitting me with creative stuff.
Hey, we're thinking about doing this in the show.
And it wasn't my shit.
It was just general creative.
It was just asking me my opinion.
And then.
But by this point, you've already proved to him that you look out for the business.
You're trying to put other people along.
Yeah, I think so.
And I think he also just sees like, for whatever reason, I have a knack for the creative.
You understand?
I see the bigger picture.
Yeah.
And you are the game.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess.
And then, so then shortly thereafter, he comes to me and he's like, hey, what do you think about coming to the production meetings at TV?
Like when we get to TV, come in the production meetings.
And I was like, I mean, if you want me to.
And he was like, look, it's a pain in the ass.
You know, like call time for talent might be one o'clock.
Production meeting might be at 10 o'clock.
Yep.
So now you're there all night.
We're coming from another town, right?
So if I'm driving five hours from the other town to get to this town, now I got to be there at 10 a.m., not one, right?
So different world.
He's like, I understand that'll be, you know, tough, but man, I'd love to have your input in there.
And I'm like, okay.
So to me, like, I'm like, well, if he's opening that door, I'm not fucking turning that shit down.
So, you know, I'd ride over to the next town with everybody.
And then in the morning, I'd be like, hey, guys, I got to be in the building early today.
I'm going to go over there at 10 o'clock.
They'd show up at one.
I'd already have been in the production meeting.
So, and once Pat sees me now in the production meetings, I think at first they were like, why is he in here?
And then once we all start to get into it, Vince is really good when he wanted to like include you in shit.
So we'd be in the production meeting and he'd be like, what do you think?
Me?
Do you remember the first thing you pitched?
I don't.
But I, you know, I just give my opinion or whatever.
And I'm sure I came across as fucking to everybody else egotistically.
What the fuck does he know?
Probably said a bunch of stupid, really stupid shit, but it was enough for him to say, like, he's contributing here.
And then Pat started to sort of like, hey, let's, you know, I got these finishes I got to go over.
You want to, you can come help me with those.
Did it make you a better wrestler being involved in the production side?
Yeah, because all the shit that you don't, you just think about your side of it.
Yeah.
And then you don't think about all the other side of it and the things that, you know, need to happen or how they're shot or camera angles or how they're thinking about this and really what's important.
Oh, this is important.
Production Side Improves Wrestling00:15:31
It's not even about me in that moment in time.
I just need to be small over there and not be seen.
That needs to be the big focus.
Like you just think totally.
It's a 360 approach as opposed to just you.
You can get out of your own way.
Yeah.
Your little slice is different than all of it.
Timing wise, is this before quad injury?
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That doesn't, that my quad injury is like 2,000 or more.
Just so funny, the lore around you, because like, as I'm doing research, there's different stories.
One story is during the quad injury, you cozy up to Vince, and that's where you really start to soak up the game.
But you were already doing it prior.
Oh, long before that.
Long before that.
So my quad injury happens 2001, and I completely, my left quad completely like exploded, right?
Like my capsule exploded, everything.
So when I get to Birmingham, where Dr. Andrews at the time is like, he is the orthopedic guy for like, you know, Jackson, everybody, right?
So I go see him.
And, you know, one of the things they tell me is like, well, why don't you have to surgery on this right away?
Like, he was like, I don't even know how you finished this match.
Like, you have nothing attached.
Like, it's a, but you shouldn't even have been able to stand up.
Right.
And, you know, we finished that match and everything.
And then he's telling me, like, look, there's nobody in a contact sport like this, an impact sport that's ever returned from this injury.
If you do it, you'll be the first one.
And to this day, he still uses it as a case study.
Wow.
So he said, like, I'm going to put the pieces back together, but whatever you can do after that is going to be on you.
So I never left Birmingham, Alabama for nine months.
Wow.
I checked into the Embassy Suites hotel.
I went and had my surgery.
I would rehab like the best, this guy, Kevin Wilk, is like the best rehab guy on the planet, especially at that time.
I thought, well, if I'm going to be able to do this, I got to be with the best.
So I checked into the Embassy Suites Hotel.
I lived there for nine months.
I would go every day.
I would go start, I'd eat breakfast at the hotel.
I'd go to rehab this, the second they be open.
I'd roll in.
I'd stay till lunch.
I'd go to lunch with Kevin and those guys, the therapists.
I'd come back.
I'd do a second session in the afternoon when they'd get done at like five or six.
I'd go to the hotel.
I'd drink a shake.
I'd drive to the gym.
I'd have some of the van take me to the gym across the street on like a fucking wheelchair at first.
I'd go, I'd train my upper body.
I'd go back to the hotel.
I'd eat something.
I'd watch wrestling tapes until I got tired.
I'd go to sleep.
I'd get up in the morning and do it again the next day.
I did that for nine months.
Was this all on your dime or was this WWE?
No, WWW recovered my hotels.
I paid for my surgery, all that stuff.
That's one great thing about the company.
They cover everything.
But the commitment aspect of it is I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't taking a chance on not coming back.
Okay.
So, but at that point, so I'm like, I'm not even really talking to Vince at all.
That's how, yeah.
Like, so during this point, like, are you not part of creative meetings?
Are you still consulting in any way?
What's up with Stephanie?
Are you guys away from each other?
So what happens is this kind of now puts Steph and I into a position where this is where we really start to have a relationship because, you know, she comes to see me in Birmingham.
Like, obviously, we have a relationship.
She cares about me.
I can't remember if we were at that part supposed to not be together, whatever.
But like, I'm in Birmingham.
She likes coming to see me.
Yeah, that's where it all locks in.
Like, she's basically, whenever she has off days, she's coming down to Birmingham to spend a day or two with me.
Not every week, but like here and there when she can.
And, you know, she helped get me through it.
Okay.
So real quick.
So during this time, my understanding is the chatter around the wrestling world while you're taking some time away is because you've been healed, you've been baby face, but you've been like hated.
And some of the hate was so real because you're mixing like real life and wrestling that like it turns into real life hate towards you, a lot of people.
To some degree.
To some degree.
My understanding is during this time, the audience kind of like flips and they start going, wait a minute, you know, this guy Triple H has really put in the time.
He's dedicated to the crap.
So we really miss him.
We really love him.
And you're not doing anything.
You're not doing any spots or anything like that.
But there's this real like lust to have you back.
Is this accurate?
Yeah.
So I go away.
When I leave, I'm one of the most hated guys in the business.
We had just done a thing where Stone Cold wanted to refresh on his character.
So he turns heel and we're together.
And we do this thing we call the two-man power trip.
And it's us just beating the shit out of everybody.
Like we have, he's like world champ.
I've got the intercontinental title.
At one point, we're tag champs, right?
And we're actually the match where I get injured, we drop the tag titles to another team.
That night, that's when I get injured.
So, but we're on this killer run and we're both like the worst heels there.
But I was already that sort of top heel.
And I leave nine months later when I come back.
I want to talk about this match specifically because my understanding is that the chatter in the wrestling world is we really miss him and maybe we're not giving him a fair shake.
We really love this guy.
And now there's like a real excitement about you coming back.
And then MSG is when you come back and it's not even a match.
You're announced that you're just going to come back and cut a promo.
What I've been told is by wrestling enthusiasts is that when you come out, it's the biggest pop they've ever heard at Madison Square Garden.
But it's right for me, it was the biggest pop I'd ever heard, but it was also me.
So like, you know, this is what I'm just saying from wrestling enthusiasts.
What they said is when you come out, and again, you're leaving the company as the biggest heel nine months later, you haven't done anything.
It's not like you're cutting promos.
There's nothing going on.
So it's pure just, you know what?
I kind of miss that guy.
He was really great for the business.
Do you have it?
I think it's...
Can we watch this?
I think it's Darth Vader leaving the franchise for a couple of years.
And then you realize it was really nice having that guy.
That guy comes back and you're like, oh my God, right?
Like, yeah.
Can we watch this?
So what's going through your head?
You haven't said any.
So, so pause it just for a second.
So understand as a performer, it doesn't matter how big you are.
You go away for nine months.
When you come back.
You don't know if they'll even remember you.
There's like, yeah, you're like, well, they care.
You're scared to death.
And it's funny.
I'm backstage at Madison Square Garden and Austin comes up to me.
Now, Austin had been out for a long period of time with his broken neck and all that stuff.
And Austin comes to me and he goes, what's going on, kid?
And I said, just getting ready for this.
And he goes, you're freaking yourself out.
You think they're not going to remember?
So he already knows.
You think they're not going to care?
And I said, yeah, I said, man, I don't want crickets.
You know, like, fuck, I don't know.
And he goes, dude, you're going to blow the roof off this place.
He said, have you heard them?
Every time they mention your name, they're going ape shit.
They've been chanting fucking Triple H all night long.
Oh, I didn't know that.
So throughout, there's this exciting thing of thirst.
He's like, you're fine.
This is going to be off the charts.
But still, I'm like, I hope so.
I really hope so.
And I'm standing at guerrilla position right outside the curtain.
Like I'm next.
Like, so they, they play a thing.
The studio, this kid, Adam Panucci, who's an incredible editor, did a package for me about my return.
And it was set to U2's beautiful day.
And he, he puts the, so he builds this video.
It's incredible.
They put that out.
It runs for the weeks leading up to, and then I'm going to return at Madison Square Garden, which when Vince told me, hey, we heard you're going to get your clearance and all that stuff.
He said, I said, yeah.
And he said, what do you think about returning at the garden?
And I was like, holy shit.
Like, to us, that was the biggest of the big.
Madison Square Garden was like our WrestleMania.
Also, the place where you had the controversial moments.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
There's so many moments at the garden.
And so I'm like, Jesus Christ, that's like a storybook thing, right?
So they do these videos, but we get to that moment and I'm standing at that curtain while they go to, so they play a thing.
They play that video and it says up next the game, right?
The crowd just roars.
They're chanting all during the commercial.
And I am standing like a fucking idiot at that curtain thinking like, please don't be silent.
Please don't be silent.
Like, you know, I'm petrified.
Like I'm going to walk out there and they are not going to give a shit, you know?
And then, you know, and then the music hits.
And, you know, you just, you're just so inside your own head that it's, it's crazy.
And, you know, hit it.
At this point, I'm just so, I am out of my mind geeked.
Like almost uncontrollable.
So.
That's awesome.
Now, for me, this, like, even just riling up the crowd like this is, this is foreign to me.
I'm used to being, I did it when we were in DX.
So obviously I'm used to doing it.
But to me, this is, I've been a bad, I've been the bad guy now for so long.
Like this is.
And how does your quad heal?
This is just all emotion to me.
Is your quad healed up?
It's healed.
You know, it's a funny thing that you can be 100%.
You can practice.
You can get on the field.
You can do all this stuff until you go out there live.
You just don't know.
So the first few matches, it was a bit.
But you're not even doing anything.
You're cutting a promo.
This is a promo and Kurt Angle is going to come out.
I do a little something.
I'm basically just cutting a promo saying I'm back and I'm entering myself in the Royal Rumble.
And so.
Are you supposed to be a healer at this point?
I think we all knew that there's no, there's no way I come back and I'm a bad guy.
Right.
And the thing for me is I've never been a good guy without a crew around me.
So now when it was DX.
So now I have to do it.
And I'm like, I'm not comfortable as a good guy.
It's foreign to me.
It's almost like I have to go into the ring and think, what would I want myself to do if I was the bad guy?
What would I was the bad guy and I was working with me, what would I want me to do?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
You know what I mean?
I have to like retro.
It's another step in my process because the business at this point is not me thinking, it's a feel thing and you're just kind of doing what's right.
And I almost have to think about it in a way of like, what would I want myself?
Because it's not instinctually.
What would I want my reaction to be?
Yeah.
And so I'm not comfortable.
And it's, I'm just not comfortable as a good guy.
Are you recutting the promo in your brain based on how much like support you have?
This, I honestly, I know I'm going to walk out there and I'm going to say, I'm back.
Yeah.
I'm entering myself in the Royal Rumble and then Kurt's going to come out.
I have zero, like I remember thinking about it, like I just almost can't even lay this out word for word because I feel like I'm going to be so emotional when I get out there.
Oh, wow.
Whether excited or whatever that is.
Holding back tears a little bit?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just going to be so overwhelmingly emotional given everything that I went through to come back that I don't know I'm going to be able to remember it anyways.
So I just know I'm back.
I'm entering the rumble.
You know, and then the Kurt shit.
Yeah.
And so I just kind of say what I'm saying.
I don't even really.
Can we go to it?
Good thing you had the water bottle.
If the tears came, you could have just and it's a funny thing is that you don't want to show that emotion, but the truth is the crowd just wants the emotion.
You don't want the real shit.
Oh, here it is.
To see it, so they're going crazy.
Yeah, that's fun.
You can't even talk.
That's fun.
You bring the mic to your mouth, and they go even crazier.
Yeah, but I also know I got to get off the air because I think I'm the last thing in the show.
So I can't go too long.
Yeah.
Just in case you've forgotten, let me tell you, Justin of who the hell I am.
I am the game.
And I'm just great.
Yeah.
Bad guy interrupts and then I beat the turtles.
All right, guys, let's take a get back to the show.
Do you think nice guys play better heels?
So it's a funny thing, and this might be completely off.
I have like a theory that, and I don't, I don't mean this in a negative way at all.
To be the babyface, you have to have, you have to be a little bit more selfish.
You have to be.
And so Austin was a great babyface, but he's not selfish.
It's sort of he was such a, because his character was a bad guy that they just loved.
Yeah.
Right.
But that's societal utility.
Yeah.
Going against the man.
Yes.
You get to be a bad guy because there's a worse guy that you're going to confront.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's a little bit different, but you know, you always hear the stories about the top sort of good guy in the business.
And there's just because it's all about you.
As a bad guy, your job is to make the other guy look good.
Keep yourself alive doing it.
Keep yourself hot doing it.
Keep yourself all that stuff.
But the truth is the biggest reaction that you get as a bad guy is when you give the good guy the comeback.
Oh, yeah, right.
When it looks like you're going to win.
So I know when I do all this horrible shit to this person, the biggest reaction we're going to get, if I'm working with Rock and he's the bad guy, I mean, he's the good guy.
I'm the bad guy.
I do all this horrible stuff to him.
Well, I know when he starts to finally make that big comeback on me and kick my ass, I'm going to fly all over the place for him.
That's the magic.
Yeah.
Right.
The bad guy sort of creates that.
You're only as, I feel like you're only as good as a good guy in the business as you are the bad guys that you have to work with.
Right.
That's right.
Because the bigger the villain, the more the audience wants to see that villain go down, the more they celebrate the babyface.
We talk about it all the time, like in the Rocky movies, right?
Like, so in the first Rocky, he just, you know, and Rocky's not about boxing, but it's about overcoming, right?
But the bad guy in Rock is Paul Creed.
He's just this arrogant guy, and this guy wants to prove himself against it.
He doesn't have to win, but he just has to stay the distance and he does.
They get to the second one.
Okay, but now he has all these things he has to overcome in his life and it's still the same bad guy, but he's got to overcome that.
And the first one was a fluke and blah, blah, blah.
He overcomes that.
Now you get to the third one.
Now he's succeeded as the babyface.
Justifying a Bad Guy Turn00:05:23
So what do they do?
They have to make Mr. T, the ultimate bad guy, that is so mean and so nasty, talk shit about his wife and ends up sort of causing Burgess Meredith so much stress, making that he dies.
And now Rocky's got to avenge.
He just can't fight.
He gets a shit kicked out of him.
Now he's got to find a way to come back against all that.
And when they get to the next one, now he's the champ again, or whatever it is.
They create a Russian guy because it's the Cold War and all that shit.
But they create the Russian guy that's so bad.
They make Rocky befriend Apollo Creed.
That's great.
Who then gets killed by the big Russian guy and he's got to go to Russia to like It's sort of how can we make the bad guy to give him something to fight against?
Yeah.
If I don't hate that bad guy, if I'm not rooting against that bad guy, if that bad guy doesn't stand for everything that I despise, then how can I really root for the babyface?
So the core for the story is having a great villain.
We've talked about this a lot, even in like Marvel movies, is like they do villains better than DC.
Thanos is an amazing villain.
Yeah, it's like you want to hate him, but then also like, does he have a point?
Is there something he's going after?
Some of the things that we try to do now, a lot of it in our creative, is like, I've always believed bad guys have to be justified.
Might be fucked up reasoning, but they have to have their way of looking at it is really warped.
They've got to be justified.
They can't just do like, you know, like, why are you doing that?
Like, because I'm a bad guy.
You know what I mean?
You didn't have to do the mustache thing.
Yeah.
No, no, no.
But I get what you're saying.
Like, a lot of times at DC, it's just like, I'm a space alien that wants to destroy the earth.
And it's like, who cares?
Why is that important?
But Thanos going, like, hey, it's unfair for people.
It's unfair for most people in the galaxy.
So why don't we just get rid of half of them and then nobody will starve?
And you're like, wait a minute, he's kind of got a point.
There's some empathy in that.
Plus, they already trying to, they were trying to put that story out there to normalize it for the government.
You know what I mean?
Okay, this is actually a transition.
Just real quick on this storyline, because specifically with Cena, you have this monumental task, taking this like super babyface, and you have to find a way to turn him into a bad guy that kind of justifies story, right?
Like, because I was looking at it, I'm like looking at some of the stats, and it's like, okay, what he is, like 16 championships.
He's like tied with Ric Flair.
And it's like, you're going into WrestleMania.
And then without any storyline, it's like, okay, of course he's going to win.
And then he gets his 17th and then it's over.
And then I'm watching this match and I see that great moment with the rock and the face go cold and this idea that like I'm going to end wrestling.
Yeah.
I'm going to win and then retire and then nobody will ever win a belt for real again.
And now all of a sudden I'm like, if I'm a wrestling fan, I've got to protect wrestling.
Yeah.
I've got to find a way to protect.
And now.
And John's reasoning for that is like, fuck, for 20 years, I've had to listen to you people tell me Cena sucks.
Let's go Cena.
Cena sucks.
I've had to, you know, you shit on my ideas.
You shit on these things, all this stuff like that.
Every turn I've tried to make, and all I've ever done is give you everything I have, and it wasn't enough.
You always want more.
So there's this place of justification where you can go, like, well, I kind of get that.
Yeah, he's done with it.
It's like, why haven't you given him up?
He's done everything for the business.
He's always done the right thing.
Yeah.
He should be the most beloved guy ever in anything.
And now in his mind, he's protecting the business from somebody like Cody, who in his mind is just copying him and phony going into this thing.
And they love him for it.
And he's angry.
Yeah, why the fuck does he get all the love?
Yeah, they love him for this.
And what you guys, I gave you the love.
Why did I get the love to you?
Exactly.
So you get the resentment.
She's justified in all of it.
And it's kind of what works with the story, no matter how.
And look, I'll say this from a bold standpoint.
It would have been so easy for John, who's making movies and is one of the busiest people I know, to say, look, I'm coming back for a year.
Let's just give me the fucking belt.
Go out there and do my greatest hits.
Yeah.
And people will love it.
And I'll sell some merch and then it'll be done.
And I'll say, thank you very much.
And I'll ride off into the sunset.
He could have very easily done that.
But when we threw the heel idea at him, he was like, fuck you.
He jumped at it.
Yeah.
Like, man, this is challenging to me.
I love the challenge.
When we pitched it, I got off the phone with John and he seemed very excited, but within like the next five minutes, I got like six texts from him.
You know what I mean?
Where I was like, oh my God, he's in.
Oh, he started pitching on his head.
Yeah, he's like, he couldn't stop thinking about it.
And he's just, he had to talk to somebody about it because he was on a movie set.
So he just kept texting me about it.
And I was like, oh, and he's, this has piqued his interest.
And, you know, it's cool to see John.
Who's, you know, he's been gone and in and out for a long time.
And you're doing that, you know, you're not that same level to see him so engaged and so like passionate about this now and what he's doing and the whole thing.
It's so cool to watch.
It's so cool.
No, it's, I mean, what were you going to say?
I was going to, I want to come back to story, but there's a question that occurred to me that I have to ask.
We always hear everything is wrestling.
So you probably, as a wrestler, look at everything differently.
Getting Under People's Skin00:07:25
And I don't, you don't have to put opinions out there.
But in 2015, when you're seeing Trump come out there and generate heat, which would be the wrestling term, are you looking at that and you're like, oh, this guy's going to win.
Like, I can feel the heat.
Yeah, I'm a big believer.
It's funny that Nick Conn, who's the president of the company with me.
Shout out, Nick.
I like Nick, man.
He's the best.
He's absolutely the best.
Like, he's really, I couldn't do this without him, but like, he's the best.
But he always has this thing where like the most charismatic guy wins.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter your policy.
It doesn't matter anything.
Whoever the most charismatic guy is in the debates wins.
And you can historically look at that and it's pretty accurate.
Right.
And I think Trump's ability as an orator as like him or hate him the way he does it.
Yeah.
But he's he's charismatic in so many ways.
And like, I think he likes getting under people's skin.
I think he likes generating the way he does.
Yeah.
It's, it's just, it's, it's, it's amazing in his genius.
And it worked in our business.
Do I think he got that from our business?
I think he innately understands that.
It's been his whole life.
You think about that.
Like, why, why?
There's a lot of billionaires in the world, I suppose.
And why was he the most famous one?
Why was he the one that was in People magazine every week and, you know, with everybody under the sun?
Why was he seen as the epitome of that, you know, that billionaire sort of status and all that stuff?
Because of his charisma and his character and who he is and the way he can speak about it and do all those things.
He just captivates people.
And I think it's why he is where he is.
Also, understanding heat.
And I thought the Vince Dog did a good job of explaining this.
Like heat isn't necessarily everybody loves you.
Yeah.
You can have heat with everyone hates you.
It's just energy towards you.
Realistically, yeah, that is the, you know, heat is that everybody hating you, but like in our business, in our parlance, right?
But like you can't have heat as a, as a baby face.
I mean, you can, but like, it's, that's not normally how we, we would just say the babyface is, man, he's over.
Oh, so heat is only a negative thing.
Sort of in our business, anyways.
Yeah.
A negative means a positive thing is about someone acting negatively.
Like, man, he's got a ton of heat.
That's me saying, man, that heel is over.
As a babyface, I would say that babyface is like he's over.
You know, Cody Rhodes is over.
Drew McIntyre's got a lot of heat.
Right.
God, it got it.
Both, both very over.
So it's a different.
As someone who's been top heel, do you have a little bit more, I don't want to say respect, but like love for the people who bring heat, the people who are the heels?
Yeah, especially if they do it well, right?
The hardest job right now to me in the business is making a babyface that everybody loves because Everybody's got something they like differently.
And so if you're too good of a good guy, they're just like, Ambi Pamby, like, you know, goody-two-shoes, right?
And they hate you for that.
It's hard.
Yeah.
So it's hard to keep the majority of people liking a good guy for a long period of time.
That's why a CM Punk is so popular because he's kind of not a babyface.
He has a rebellious nature.
He's an anti-authority.
He's an anti-authority, anti-this, anti-that also, phenomenal wrestler.
Like, I remember MSG, like him and Seth.
And Seth, too.
Just like, if even if you didn't know anything about their characters and you were just dropped into MSG that night, you just watched these guys go at it.
Incredibly engaging.
And Punk, same with Seth, same with Roman, same with Cody.
Like, Roman, too.
They can verbally get all that reaction that you need.
Like, they almost don't have to ever wrestle on TV or do much stuff on TV because their character is such and they can talk.
You know, Punk can talk just about anything on the stick.
He's great.
Did babyfaces last longer in different eras?
Yeah, because the business was set up differently.
So like in the generation prior to this, like Vince's dad, Vince Sr., when he had the company, like, you know, he would have Bruno as champion or Backlund as champion, and then he would bring in heels.
Sort of, it was a heel factory, right?
Like a heel would come in.
So, you know, George the Animal Steele or Stan Hansen or whoever the heel was would come in.
They'd beat up the number two good guy to get heat on them.
Then they'd get their way up to like Backlund or Bruno.
Then they'd do, you know, two or three around the horn with him, Madison Square Garden, do all the stuff, all the big clubs, do all that stuff, get all that out of it.
Then once they blew that off and he was done with Bruno, he'd go back down to the number two guy who would now get his revenge overcome.
That guy would leave.
He'd go to another territory.
Another bad guy would come in and then cycle it out and repeat to some degree, right?
So does that say something about culture today that there's less of an affinity for like long-term babyfaces?
Like, how does WWE today reflect culture now?
Yeah, I think that's difficult.
I think, like, I think everybody in the world wants to see you succeed just not too long, so they flip on it.
They want to see you come up.
They want to see you come up.
Everybody wants to see you come up, but staying there is tough.
Yeah, it's something we said here before.
It's like when you're on your way up, you represent people's dreams for themselves.
Yeah.
And then when you're on top, you represent what they may never achieve.
They may never achieve and what they'd like to achieve, but you're in the way.
You're in the way.
So it's like, okay, you got to get down.
I just wanted to move.
There's a saying in our business.
People want to see you do well.
They just don't want to see you do too well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now you know that and you understand that's people's reaction to it, right?
So you have like this suit, what is it, white meet babyface in Cody, right?
And he seemed to have maintained it, but is there a point where you're going to have to go, uh-oh, like it's on us to try to keep it, right?
Yeah.
But yeah, at some point, you'll probably get to a place where they're just, you know, look, John was white meet babyface for a long period of time.
I just saw him do an interview the other day where he said, like, I don't remember what WrestleMania was, like, 22 or something like that.
He and I wrestled at WrestleMania in Chicago.
And I was bad guy, and John was the ultimate good guy, and I was the big bad guy at the time.
But as we built that, no matter what we were doing, the more I beat up John, the more they liked me.
The more John would try to make comebacks, the more they were booing John.
And even in the match, it was like 50-50, right?
And I remember having a conversation with John about it because it was bugging him.
It was just starting to happen.
And I remember saying, like, who cares?
You know, the Yankees and the Red Sox all in one package like you.
It's sold out, right?
Who cares?
Just go with it.
And he was having trouble with this idea that he's supposed to be babyface, but not everybody was buying in.
Just there's a point in time in that where, yeah, you just like start to, well, man, that's not the reaction I'm trying to get.
Like, I'm not trying to make them say Cena sucks or anything else, but yet there they go with it.
Beating Up John for Boos00:08:18
And I'm doing all the right things.
They're just for whatever reason, starting to joke on it.
Well, maybe that's culture, right?
It is.
I truly believe that.
Look, name somebody in pop culture that has been popular forever.
No one says a bad word about him and it's just there's only one, Leonardo DiCaprio.
The worst thing they say about him is he has sex with hot girls.
Yeah.
That's terrible.
What a horrible guy.
Yeah, yeah.
And even just in saying that, you've just made half of the population love them even more.
Keanu Reeves is maybe the only person I can think.
Keanu Reeves.
And because of who he is outside and all that stuff.
But I have a theory on these guys.
It's tough.
I have a theory on these guys.
It's lack of exposure.
So like if you're doing it week in and week out, it's tough for people to stomach that.
If they don't actually like love you for you for whatever reason, you start to be this like representative of infallible greatness, which makes a lot of people be like, well, I'm uncomfortable.
What the fuck is up with that?
But if you put out one movie a year or Denzel's another one, it's like nobody's ever hated Denzel.
We'll never hate Denzel.
But if you're putting out one or two movies here, tops, and then you go away.
I think a lot of times with the even actors, and this is like to the point about everything's wrestling, it's like the actors that are like constantly in your face.
Yeah.
Like Kiana looks like he's trying to get away.
Like any picture of Keanu, he's like on the subway with his hat on.
He's like, he's fighting.
The actors that need the attention every second, people start to sour on them a bit.
When you see them constantly at TMZ, you see them constantly in the populace.
You see them all this stuff and it becomes too much.
You become desensitized to it.
Then you start to be like, ah, it's funny.
Fuck that guy full of shit.
And you're going to fuck up.
And you start to turn on it.
Yeah.
And I do think that that longevity is part of the scarcity as well.
But in your business, you can't go, hey, Cody, we're going to need you to go away.
He's got to be there every night.
He's the fucking champ.
So you need to build up heels that people despise.
And that want to come at him in a way that sort of they feel like, oh, man, he's getting screwed over there.
You know what I mean?
It's half unfair.
There's like something unjustly unfair.
Yeah, you have to try to create that.
It's the most, I say it all the time, it's the most difficult thing in our business to do is create somebody that is universally loved and keep them there.
How do you have that talk with talent where it's like, if you think it's in their best interest for you to go away and have the audience miss you for a while?
Like, how do you have that talk with them?
You just have to tell them.
Like, I think, you know, hey, let's, let's cool this down for a little bit.
Let's step you out of it.
And let's, you know, and there's always, you know, a lot of times we don't even, it's not our call because somebody will get injured or something will happen.
And you're just like, this was a kind of a, you never want to say that to them.
Like, well, you got injured was a good thing.
Right.
But like sometimes taking that time away is a good thing.
There's a, you know, you're obviously familiar with Floyd Mayweather, right?
Yeah.
And I'm a big boxing fan.
I was watching his career.
I helped him when he wrestled for us and fought Big Show.
I trained him for that.
How was he in training?
Was he, and he was like, you know, good listener and he was down to do whatever went through.
I say this all the time.
He would show up with like this massive entourage, everybody hooting and hollering and just crazy and all that stuff.
And we'd talk for a little bit and then he'd be like, all right, you want to get down to work?
And I'd be like, yeah.
And he'd whistle or something.
And he'd be like, all right, business, everybody out.
And everybody would stop talking.
Anybody that stayed would stop talking.
Everybody else would get out of the room.
And he was like a laser focus.
And like the first time we trained together, we did like two hours or whatever.
And then I had to go on the road.
And then I came back, I think, to like Vegas or something.
And we get same thing.
Everybody's there.
He tells everybody to get out.
And I go, all right, I just want to review what we talked about last time.
He goes, can I say it to you?
And he like went on for like 20 minutes and told me like everything.
And I was like, what?
Damn.
But I mean, that's like an unbelievable amount of discipline.
Like the thing about Floyd is there's the antics and there's the character, whatever.
But like when you watch him in the ring, you know, he's like a huge WWE fan growing up.
So like that's where the whole money may weather.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
He had that conversation with me about like, look, I knew Pretty Boy Floyd was only going to get so far.
You can make the argument that I was the greatest boxer, but the real argument is what's the greatest box office and how do you make that?
I need to create a character and I need an avenue in which to sell that character.
He created the character and then he went and sold 24-7 to HBO.
And then that was the avenue in which to sell the character.
And think about it.
When he goes up in weight and starts fighting these bigger guys and he's having some hand problems, he's not really getting these knockouts.
He's fighting a much more defensive style.
So how do you sell out pay-per-views fighting a style that like casuals might not care?
I love it because I love boxing.
I'm looking at the best ever.
Do you like the science of it?
I like the science.
But not everybody wants the science.
Most don't.
They most don't.
So what do you do?
You make yourself hated.
You make people root against you.
And he becomes this ultimate heel.
And people were paying 70 bucks to watch him lose.
And he'd never fucking lose.
And the genius of what he did was not only make people hate him, but I will make you believe this other guy might have a chance.
Or tease.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All these guys.
This guy's got an unorthodox style.
And Floyd's starting to get older.
Like he's showing you flaws in his buildup of 24-7.
He's showing you the flaws.
And there's too much family drama going on.
He's not focused.
He's not training right.
He's eating like shit.
All these things.
Meanwhile, they're showing Ortiz or these other guys.
He looks incredible.
Remember Juan Manuel Marquez was drinking his pee?
Yeah.
Like they're doing all these like crazy unorthodox training things.
You're like, yeah, I walked him to the ring, right?
So for the Marquez fighter.
Yeah.
The ring is one of the craziest things ever.
First of all, I'm backstage with him.
I show up and they're like, hey, Champ wants to see it.
So I go in the back and he's laying on the couch watching basketball game.
I tell him, he's like, what's up?
And, you know, we talk for a few minutes.
And then I'm like, all right, man, I'm going to get out of your hair.
Let me go back out here.
And he's like, no, man, you need my hair.
I'm just watching the game.
I got money on this.
He's like, I'm just sitting here.
You want to hang out?
Sit down, man.
Hang out.
So I'm like, okay.
So I sit down for a few minutes.
We talk a little bit.
Seuss is breaking the conversation.
I'm like, all right, man, I'm going to get out of here.
How do you wait and let you do a thing?
He's like, I'm telling you, man, I'm just sitting here.
I said, well, I know it's game day, man.
I know you got shit to do.
He's like, if I haven't done all the shit I need to do before today, I've already lost.
I've done everything there is to do.
Ain't nothing going to change it now.
I'm going to put my gloves on a little bit.
You can sit through the whole thing.
I'm going to start to warm up.
Then I'm going to go out there and fight.
Yeah.
Simple as that.
And like, okay, I sat down and he just went back to watching the game like he was sat on his couch.
And then the other crazy thing was we sit there.
I sit there.
At one point, he's talking shit to like Bernard Hopkins.
He's in the corner.
Marquez is throwing punches at him and he's leaning back talking shit in between bobbin and web and talking shit to fucking Bernard Hopkins, which I'm like crazy.
Yep.
They get us up in the last round to walk us into the ring.
And so like we're in there like this, 10 seconds after it's over.
And he's walking back towards us.
The bell rings, they get me in the ring.
He's walking back towards us.
And as he's walking back to us, I kind of look at him and he's like very lightly covered in sweat, like very lightly.
He's not like he wasn't working that hard.
And as he's walking, he goes, That's motherfucking beat Pacquiao twice.
And I was like, Jesus, this guy is just too much.
But he got it.
He got the storytelling.
He understood it.
That ability.
How many people did he make you believe this is the guy?
Yeah.
Anybody ever, like I brought up the Ortiz.
Anybody ever hear that guy prior to that fight?
No.
I mean, Rumblings and Boxing, of course, but the average person, no.
Obviously, Pacquiao is big.
And then Tropic, like Codo.
I mean, Canelo.
It's crazy to see what Canelo's done and what I was at that Canelo fight.
Yeah.
And I was there too.
I mean, it was like Canelo didn't lay a hand on him.
It was unbelievable.
Comedy Payoff with Ortiz00:15:23
Like that was the thing.
And he made it seem like, okay, Canelo's going to kill this guy.
And then he walked in there.
Like the part when Canel throws a big wild punch and he literally was willing to.
See, like, who are you trying to punch?
You know, like, just, but that's the shit why people, every time they wanted to see him, somebody please shut this guy up and knock him out.
And then he would, you know, just go in there and it almost like it was easy.
So what is it about us then?
I mean, that's, that's where like wrestling is just perfect and understanding human condition.
And I think now that I think now more than ever, and maybe you ushered this in, now is there as there's this like blend between reality and wrestling, you know, people are much more aware of like what's happening with storylines.
So it's maybe even more difficult for you to catch them off guard.
But like, what is it about the human condition that we need these bad guys?
It's this concept like David versus Goliath.
I don't know, man.
You know, it's a funny thing.
Our business, you can make our business so complex.
The truth is, is the same stories have been being told since the beginning of time.
Yeah.
Bad guy, good guy.
Good guy fights, bad guy, bad guy does something terrible to the good guy.
Then good guy makes a comeback.
Hopefully good guy wins.
If you want to tell a good story, make people keep coming back.
Sometimes you got to have the bad guy win so that you get to, right?
Like I use that as sometimes we'll be writing a show and we get to the end and there's people that filter through the show.
So one of the producers will read the show and he'll be like, I'm just going to say this whole show is heat driven.
Like every bad guy goes over.
Every bad guy looks good.
The whole thing is bad guy, bad guy, bad guy.
Might not be the best live experience.
And I'm like, Empire Strikes Back, dude, we're good.
Right?
It's the...
Today's the bad guy's day and we're good with that.
So you're okay with not giving an audience what they want in the short term because the long-term payoff is that much more valuable.
Look, sometimes you're wrong, but the truth is, you know, you can't judge the story you're being told by the moment in time you're in and how people are reacting to it.
Because hopefully, if you're smart, you know where the story's going.
And if you believe in the story and the payoff, you're going to go through times where people are like, this sucks.
I don't like this.
And you're okay with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because, you know, most people are saying this sucks.
I don't like it.
But I'm going to tune in next week and see if they fix this, whatever, because it's terrible.
How long can you stretch that out?
Yeah.
You know, and that's the thing.
And look, I'm not going to say we're always successful at it.
Nobody's got 100% batten average.
I like to think we're pretty good at it, but you cannot panic.
Dude, there's the, do you watch White Lotus at all?
You follow in this season?
I was just so busy.
Okay.
So there's this great show called White Lotus, right?
I've only watched this season and there was two visits.
But like the first four episodes came out and people were panning it.
They were going, oh, this is bullshit.
Or like, oh, this season is, you know, it's, what is it?
He jumped the shark or whatever.
Like, oh, this is boring, whatever.
And I bumped into one of the producers and he was like, just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
And I was like, oh, that's a really confident, that's a really confident take.
And episode five, six, seven, it's like four episodes just you planted all the seeds.
And when they went to harvest, dude, it shut the internet down.
Yeah.
It was like the only conversation.
So it's having maybe the balls to like put.
Row says it all the time.
You know, when he'll come in and they'll like, that was stupid.
Rock did this thing.
And he was like, just shut up and enjoy the ride because he knows where it's going.
Yeah.
Or we know where we're going to get it to, or we're confident in the fact that we will get this places it needs to go.
Sometimes, sometimes you're in the build for something.
And, you know, people don't take that in the like, well, I wish they would have done this.
Yeah, well, yeah, we are going to do that, but I can't do it today.
The thing's not for six weeks still.
I got to do it down here.
You can't give them the payoff in week one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yes, of course.
As comics, we're all familiar with bombing.
Do you have any storylines or anything you've written in that you're like, oh, this is going to pay off crazy?
And then doesn't.
And then you're watching the back like that.
No, I think because usually if you, and that happens for sure, but like usually here's the beautiful thing about our world.
The internet's not real life, right?
And the bitching and the fucking complaining that is on there is not real life.
Like we can, you could, you could read the internet and it'll sound like this thing is dead.
It's not, you know, like, and I'll use Cody as the example.
Cody's already jumped the shark.
He's dead as a babyface.
He's like, really?
Because I don't know.
I'm in an arena with 10,000, 15,000 people every night going ape shit for me, selling the most merchandise.
He's like, yeah, like, but the, sure, whatever you want to say on the internet, that's, that's the, that's the golden rule.
So the beautiful thing for our business, unlike a movie or a TV show or even a book or anything else, it's like we have a focus group.
Every single night.
You go out and see stand-up.
You go up and you do stand-up, right?
Like you do your stand-up for a year before you do the TV special or whatever a lot of times, right?
Because you're trying out all the shit and you're seeing what works and what doesn't.
If you're terrible at your job, you just do it the way you want to do it and it bombs.
If you're good at your job, you tweak things, you change things, make it seem fresh still all the time, but you're shifting along the way until you get to where it's just right and then you go put it out there.
As we begin to tell these stories, you know, this is working.
This is not working.
And whether people are bitching online or people, the reaction of people live is what you can trust.
Jay who's so terrible.
It's never going to, what are they doing?
They're yeeting.
They're yeeting.
Again, merch, reaction in the crowd, everything he does.
Like, yeah, it's just opinion of a few people.
So if a story piece bombs, you guys can get back and be like, all right, let's just pivot and then we can stand it.
Hey, man, that didn't go the way I thought it was going to go.
Man, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't take that or they didn't react to that or that didn't click the way we thought it was going to.
What if we do this instead?
And you pivot and you move, right?
That's all the time.
That's being a good storyteller.
That's being, you know, and I think in our business, our business slightly has changed now because of TV and the live nature of it and stuff.
So the guys in the back as they're doing this, a lot of them put their matches together beforehand, move for move, and then they go out there and they do it.
My generation was taught differently and was a bit more like have a premise of where you want to go.
Start to go there.
But if it's not working, you have to go in a different direction.
You can do that on the fly.
You know, not as a brag.
It's just a different generational thing.
So like I've gone, I wrestled Taker at WrestleMania one time.
And like we sort of put together the finish and it was, you know, like, I don't know, the finish was probably 15 minutes long or whatever.
We knew where we wanted to go with the finish.
And then we had sort of put it together and now it's early that day.
And I went to take it.
I'm like, hey, we got the finish finally down now.
You want to talk about the rest?
And he was like, let's call it out there.
Wow.
All right.
That sounds fun.
I wonder if it's more believable that way from a viewer.
I feel like it is.
Because you don't know.
Yeah.
And there's times sometimes when you have all that stuff laid out where it starts to look dancey and people are just going to bring it to the next thing.
You want to be a jazz.
So like I think that's the trick.
Like in your business, I would imagine that comedians start to get to a place where they know the reaction and then they just start to go with what they believe is going to happen.
Like I'm always more impressed with a comedian that's like doing something and then somebody heckles him and he like just goes on for six minutes and rips this person a new asshole and does all this stuff that you know like there's no way that was planned.
You know what I mean?
To me, that's impressive.
Like it's off the cuff.
Yeah, you just go do your shtick and repeat your stuff.
It's still a, don't get me wrong, it's still an incredible skill set that I don't have.
And then, you know, very few, one, you know, tiny infinesimal amount of people have that skill set.
But the other one where you just off the cuff have it and you're just that to me.
And the audience feels that too.
And the best version of it is if they think the entire thing is more or less that.
So like you're in a joke, but then there may be parts of that joke where the audience is going, wait, is he kind of riffing this?
Is he reacting to it?
Or react?
That's what I was going to say.
To me, then the art form becomes when you have it down to a sign.
How do you make sure that you still go out there and make it seem like it's the first time you've ever said it?
And sometimes you got to lie, not lie to yourself, but sometimes you got to trick yourself.
Sometimes you got to get into the joke, at least for me, differently.
Like every night, I'm going to purposely put myself in a situation where I haven't said it like this and then see what happens.
And then maybe a new line comes around.
But they can feel my excitement energy.
Dude, there's a weird thing in comedy where like you'll try a new joke and they'll like react to it and you'll walk off stage like, I got a killer.
And then you'll listen to it and you'll be like, that bombed.
What the fuck just happened?
And it's simply like you're excited about it.
So the little reaction that they think is way bigger.
They gave me something.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But like, I think they can get almost like they feed off of your excitement, authenticity.
I think there's stuff in our business where sometimes Talon are like, I don't understand why.
Like, well, why am I not the cop guy?
I hear my reaction I get every night.
No, you hear the reaction you get every night.
You're not out there for the other reactions.
That's, you know, also the expectation might be way less for your reaction because you're not the top guy.
You're a guy earlier in the card.
And then when they're going crazy, they're not there to only see you.
Yeah.
The main event expectation is a different fucking ballgame.
Different.
And it's tough.
You know, you need to explain that to somebody.
It's tough, right?
Like it hurts their ego.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It wasn't as big as you thought it was.
No, it was.
I heard it.
Yeah, they're like, nah, I heard it too.
You were saying you had a friend in comedy when you were coming up?
Yeah, when you know, I was like, before I got into the wrestling business, trying to get the wrestling business, I ran gyms where I lived and all that stuff.
And there was a guy that, you know, he was trying to be a stand-up comedian.
And I don't, you know, I don't think he ever made it.
I never heard of him after that.
But like he was taking, there was like, it was at the time when like comedy was really taking off.
This maybe 80s?
Yeah, late, late 80s and shit.
Like comedy was huge.
Huge.
Like just massive.
And he was trying to do it.
And he was like taking like a class.
I remember him telling me, like, you know, I'm enrolled in this class with this guy who's like a famous comedian.
I don't remember the name.
And I was like, fuck, you're taking comedian classes.
I didn't even know that was the thing.
It just seemed odd to me, right?
But then I was like, well, I guess sort of like what we do, right?
Like, or what I'm trying to do.
And, but he would tell me, you know, he'd come in and he'd be trying shit out on me all the time, but then he'd be telling me things that he learned about like callbacks and, you know, different things.
And it's the same.
It's the same thing.
We're just physically, you go out there, comedians go out there and they tell a story.
And over a long period of time, they tell this story and the bits and pieces of the story that ebb and flow and bring you back to the beginning.
And when you don't know, the jokes come in and the guy's telling a story that you think, well, all of a sudden he got real serious.
Then he hits you with a boom, the thing, right?
When you least expect it, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's the distract.
It's the right like all these things are the same in our business, just the medium of which we paint the picture is different.
I was the victim of one of yours.
That was fucked up.
I know I have Logan.
No, no.
Be honest, did you have any?
I think you had...
Who moved my seats?
That's all I want to know.
Logan, if a top star comes to me.
Don't work me.
Now he's getting all diplomatic.
But the top star comes and says, like, hey, so-and-so is here, right?
Yes, he is.
Where's he sitting?
Over there.
Hey, would they move him over here?
I'd like to address him in the crowd.
Like, okay.
I mean, top star is generous.
Right.
A part-timer.
You're going to let him talk.
A guy that thinks he's a top star.
Okay, fair enough.
I'm just saying, we.
Now he's going to show me this.
You're serious, bro.
Because we're seated initially with all the other dudes that are behind McAfee and Cole.
And then all of a sudden, last second, we get seated over there.
And my stupid ego is like, oh, I've done Madison Square Garden before.
Oh, they want to put me front row.
And like, my wife is there.
I'm like all excited, whatever, like that.
And then Logan calls me out.
And there's a moment where like I kind of like look and I look at Dove because I'm like, did you fucking do like, what the hell is going on?
And then he has no clue about what's happened.
And then when he starts like doing shit, he's like doing like a work on me.
Yeah.
Well, put it this way.
If, if somebody, I know that he knows you.
I know that you guys know each other to a degree.
So him saying to me, hey, I know, where's he sitting?
Oh, he's over behind Cole.
Yeah.
Hey, could you move him over here?
Because he doesn't, he wants to be able to address hard camera and still oh, so that's how you get the look to you, right?
So to me, I'm like, okay, well, they're friends.
Like nothing like he's not going to go over to you and go like bangs.
It works for fucking friends.
I thought literally the week, and I think he fucking set me up because like literally, he sent me an invite to his fucking wedding.
Yeah.
So then when he announced, man, I'm like, what is he trying to pull me into?
And then he does this whole fucking shtick where like now I have to like co-sign his nonsense.
And I'm like, I'm at home.
Like you get to wrestle.
I got to, I see these people every single fucking day.
So I'm like, you're not going to pull me into this bullshit.
And especially when you're not even wrestling that you're cutting a promo.
That's why I showed up to watch you cut a fucking promo.
Like I give a fuck.
Well, you do realize he's a guy that sort of plies his trade on getting clicks and downloads and like yeah, so I'm not going to let him do that to me.
Well, you sort of did.
No, well, let me tell you something.
Logan is fucking lucky that AJ pulled up because if I put hands on Logan in front of my people, Madison Square, I was shocked these pussy didn't jump in.
We have a perfect opportunity.
Well, you're in there.
Why not?
This is wrestling.
This is what it is.
I'm not getting it.
My boys are sitting there watching eating popcorn like assholes.
Also, because if you get knocked out, this becomes his podcast.
There's some potential upside.
Exactly.
I thought you could take him, bro.
I thought that I could too.
He sends it.
You actually embarrass me even more.
Now I might have some beef with you.
You send in this other guy.
Like, I mean, beautifully does a great job.
He's jumping over the ropes and everything like that.
But I'm like, let me do it old-fashioned in front of my people.
I did.
I did feel a little bit of disrespect from that.
It almost felt like you thought I couldn't defend myself.
No, no, look, the AJ part was already planned to happen.
I didn't know he was going to do the stuff with you beforehand.
I mean, so you're basically saying that Logan has the keys to the business, that the inmates run in the asylum.
Weekend Takeover with UFC00:07:05
I am also saying that.
If I need a punishment, it's a lot of Vince doing.
That's a love statement.
I am saying that if I see a celebrity in the front row of your stature, that if something might happen, it's not terrible for us.
Wow.
Okay, good to know.
Whether you come out shining or whether it's a little bit at your expense, it's not a terrible thing.
All right.
Well, I just want to let you know that's the last time something like that happens.
I just feel like that if we go to Madison Square Garden again, I'd like to invite you.
And then whatever happens to Logan at that event from you is just all I'm saying is I have a way of getting in there without the medical detectors.
That's all I'm saying.
You know what I mean?
So, you know, maybe you want to see me in the bleachers.
You want to see me in a nice suite or something like that.
Because if a front row, you never know what might happen.
I'm all for it.
Look, WrestleMania is two weeks away.
So if you're like, I'm busy.
I can't go to something like that.
I could never, I can't win.
Which is what a guy would say if he was going to show up on an hour.
I mean, I'll definitely be there.
I'll definitely 100% be there.
Soon is going to get a panel racket to the head.
This is the beautiful thing about our business is people will debate this shit all day long.
I say this about our business all the time.
If you don't like it, there's nothing in the world I can say to you to make you like our business.
If you do like it, there's no explanation necessary.
You just get into it, right?
But as into it as you are, there will be moments in time in our show where I could say, like somebody will say, hey, those two really got at it.
And I was like, no, not part of the show.
And then they'll be like, no, I saw that one.
I was there.
And I know that he did one thing that pissed the other guy off.
And then it got real for a second with those two.
And you're not sure.
Yeah.
It's like trying to explain vagina to gay guys.
I suppose.
I'm listening.
Or you could flip that scenario too.
Yeah.
Yes.
Them explaining butt to us.
Yeah.
Some of us have been in there.
Or Nick.
I've got one, but I'm not.
Yeah, I don't know that I'm buying the explanation.
Yeah, I guess that's true.
But when we tug on it, it's fun.
You almost understand them.
Anyway, listen, Triple H, you're the fucking man.
Yes, yes, yes, sorry.
He's going to get out of here soon.
I'm sorry.
You say the pendulum swings.
I was a big fan of the attitude era.
Where would you say you guys are at right now?
As far as you mean, like, is the WWE in the second coming attitude era or playing it a little sick?
I say this a bunch.
Well, look, you have to play to what is acceptable in the world because you can say, like, in the attitude era, well, a lot of that stuff wasn't acceptable.
No, yeah, it was.
My kids were going to school and saying it every day and doing all the stuff and wearing the shirts and all the things, right?
Like there are certain things that are acceptable, certain things that are not in the moments in time.
We have to work with our partners, obviously, and what can work and what can't work.
And there's leeway in that.
But as a guy that sat, you know, front row and center as the attitude era was becoming and then what it would become, we're in that same zone of pushing the envelope.
Pushing the envelope, but also of mainstream acceptance of my nephews every day.
You feel it.
Yeah, it's, you know, and it, and it's global, right?
We are, you see, us now kind of, we've always been a global product, but now is sort of the first time that I think we can capitalize on that, where we can go anyplace on the planet.
You guys are in Europe.
I was seeing you guys sell out these arenas in Europe.
It's unbelievable.
They're chanting their own soccer chants because they just want to be part of the show.
They don't know how to do it outside of it.
This year we'll be in France and Paris.
That'll be off the charts.
We're going to go to Perth again in Australia.
The Middle East is always off the charts.
And we haven't even touched South America, go to Mexico, like all these things that are upcoming and we will be doing.
Dude, you got to go to the Middle East and then tell them all that Sami Zayn is really from Ireland.
The biggest heel turn ever.
Very last question.
You guys are under the same umbrella.
Are we going to see any UFC guys make that jump into you know, you might look?
It's one of the things, like it just depends on who's an entertainer and who's.
Oh, so it's a possibility.
Yeah, there's always that possibility.
Look, Brock Lesnar, Rhonda, of course.
There's always that possibility.
We're always wide open to it.
You know, I think there's also possibilities that as we are recruiting now D1 athletes coming out of colleges and our NIL program and everything else of how we're recruiting, there are people that are coming into us that want to do WWE style entertainment for a living, but are like...
I might want some of that UFC stuff.
Look, I'd dip my toe in that water of taking a shot at UFC if I could.
And whether that's realistic or whether it's not.
Like some of those guys have massive amateur backgrounds and have trained in that stuff, but are looking to do what we do, but would also throw their hat in that ring.
So who knows?
I would say never say never on that.
I would say the bigger collaboration between us and UFC is what you're seeing happen now, where we're like going into areas and sort of doing like a almost like a weekend kind of takeover thing where we go in with, I'm making this up at a SmackDown on a Friday night, and then UFC is in there on a Saturday, and then we're in there with something on a Sunday, and then we do a Monday Night Raw.
And, you know, we've, we've gone in there and done this whole sort of weekend takeover of stuff.
I think seeing bits and pieces of things like that.
And, you know, with the inclusion also within TKO of, you know, pro-bull riding and all that stuff now, they're just entertainment conglomerate.
Yeah, there's a lot of avenues on that.
And that's going to bring a crossover for sure.
Yeah.
And live events.
You know, it's funny to me that people make sometimes the distinction between sport and everything's entertainment.
The news is entertainment.
It's all entertainment.
And what I love is that we are sort of the ultimate variety show and we can do a bit of everything.
So we can have, you know, stuff can be serious.
It can be emotional.
It can be make you angry.
It can make you laugh.
We can have comedians on.
We can have musicians on.
We can have Bad Bunny wrestling in a match.
He's awesome, by the way.
Incredible, right?
We can have Travis Scott there.
We can have you there.
We can have include so many things and be a part of just everything.
And I think you see that resonating across society where as big as it was in the Attitude era, we were still seen as like this crazy offshoot thing.
And now it feels like it's a part of culture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It very much is just a part of culture and a part of everybody's sort of everyday vernacular.
The amount of times I hear our insider terms being used in the regular world now.
Kayfey, babyface.
Culture Includes Everything00:01:14
It's crazy.
This is just common parlance.
It's just dude.
Okay, last, I know you got to go.
There is a wrestler in New York City.
His name is Tommy Invincible.
He is the purest white meat babyface.
Does he have a mustache and a is nothing like that?
That guy's not a wrestler.
That just is a civilian that was taken advantage of.
Yeah.
You know, and does not need his redemption because I'm a Buddhist now and I don't care about that.
You're above that.
And I'm not going to be used for fucking clicks ever again.
Yeah, you're above it.
Okay.
You're above it.
But if you show up in my neighborhood, this is the guy that get popped.
This guy, Tommy Invincible, I'm obsessed with.
I watch every single Instagram he puts out.
Okay, I would be upset if I did not know that he is right now the United States Bronx champion.
It is going to blow his fucking mind that I'm talking to him about you right now.
But I'm telling you, this guy is absolutely phenomenal.
Okay.
And he is a liver.
He's dedicated his life to this thing, and he is incredible.
And I just want to stay on the street.
Clario is standing outside the performance center.
So clearly.
Of course, he's definitely.
I will.
You know, look.
In my position now, like I have a team of people that are across all this stuff.
So I guarantee you they know who he is.
God bless.
We'll get eyes on him.
Tommy, you're going to make everyone feel invincible, bro.