Andrew Schulz exposes the music industry's stream-faking schemes, detailing how labels inflate numbers to secure bonuses while artists face predatory 360 deals. He contrasts this with his independent success, arguing that true wealth lies in experiences rather than ego-driven accumulation. The discussion critiques rap's shift from counterculture rebellion to a lucrative fiction, comparing artists who promote harmful lifestyles without living them to corporations like Philip Morris. Ultimately, Schulz advocates for artistic integrity over market share manipulation, urging a return to authentic genre expression and empathy within the business. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Boardroom Performances Explained00:04:21
Why do the labels make the artists do those boardroom performances?
Here's how those go.
Who's the most fit at?
Of course, you're gonna lose the art because people aren't doing it for the art anymore.
They're doing it for the bad.
This is not me speculating.
This is me talking to like top five most streamed artists in the world and them talking to CEOs and CEOs admitting it.
And me on the phone with like the dude who fakes the stream.
Nikki spoke on Future saying when I talked to Future, he told me he wasn't even doing the drugs that he talks about.
I think Futures music is amazing.
But I also know that the reason why I wanted to try Lean when I was 19 was Future.
We have seen it live in the flesh.
Juice World said I did drugs because of you.
Juice World died of a drug overdose by following somebody who does not even do the drugs that they said they did.
It's y'all's fault for believing it.
No, no, no, no.
Start at chapter one.
Why are you perpetuating something you're not doing?
Bro, when this comes out, I'm getting flamed.
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to Flagrant.
Now, listen, if you hate seeing stand-up clips all over the internet, we have brought the man that's responsible for that on the podcast today.
Give it up for us, everybody.
I've given you your flowers for this, so you know the story.
And I talk about this quite often.
But retell it.
We have to get it.
There's never enough flowers.
But no, I remember watching an interview with you and you saying that you were putting out a song a week.
And at that point in my life, I was like, man, I'm not working hard enough.
This guy's putting a whole fucking song out a week.
You got to write the music for it.
You got to write the lyrics.
You got to do it.
And I could put a joke out a week.
And I started doing that.
I started getting success.
I tried to tell as many comedians as possible about it.
And now they're stand-up all over the internet.
So you deserve credit for that.
So we just want to say thank you for putting us on to the hustle.
And there's a lot of things I want to talk to you about.
I'm very excited to finally have you on the pod.
A lot of music industry stuff, a lot of personal stuff in your music.
But before that, I need you to explain to us something.
Okay.
Why is it because you're uniquely positioned in the music world where I don't feel like you're really indebted to anybody but the fans?
So you could kind of talk shit about the labels.
Right.
And then you could talk shit about the artists.
Right.
And the artists that are dead to the labels can't say shit.
And the people that work at the labels can't say shit, but you can, right?
Why do the labels make the artists do those boardroom performances?
Is that like a crazy thing is I don't think they make them do the performances.
Here's how those go, right?
Here's the explain this.
The reality is like you, when you get signed to a label or you're trying to get signed to a label, they'll in a way to sort of like show you how much like artillery we have and how much we fuck with you.
They bring the whole team.
We have digital in here.
We have radio.
They bring the whole staff, right?
And they sit them around this long table.
Yeah, this is crazy.
And they play favorite play.
Bobby wanted that label favorite play.
But it's like, here's the thing.
It's like they play your music.
So it's like, I've done that meeting, but like a sane individual, I sat at the table.
You didn't get up at no point.
And like, we just listened to the music.
So now some people like want to stand on the table and go nuts, which is like, that's their prerogative.
That's what's up.
But to me, yeah, I mean, it's like, those people aren't like, they're not there to fuck with you, really.
So like, doing all that is not going to make the deal better.
So you can just sit in that level of awkwardness.
Like if somebody played my stand-up for me, I don't know if I'd be confident enough to perform it for them.
But like, I'd be like, can we not turn and sit here for this?
See, I mean, back then for me, it's like I was just, I mean, what was I 23 when I partnered?
So it's like, I was in a different headspace of like so, so like beyond arrogant, you know, like just so gung-ho on my shit that I was like, fuck yeah, y'all should be playing my shit.
Fuck.
You know what I mean?
So, yeah, I mean, I definitely never like stood on the table.
That never crossed my mind when I saw that.
I was just like, what are y'all doing?
Like, right there.
It also is just like, bro, like these people don't care like that.
Like, so you're standing on the table.
It's almost like that's not going to make them like go harder for you.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's not.
Yeah.
They got a house.
Their kids are private.
It's a job.
And it's also musical chairs in the business.
It's like that person you're like doing all that performing and all that, like trying to get them on your side share, whatever you're trying to do, they could be gone next week.
The End of Fake Streams00:16:14
Yeah.
They don't give a fuck.
There's like conspiracy with people to be like, oh, this is like a humiliation ritual.
This is like to check them.
That is a choice.
The truth is always.
It's a personal choice that DG4 makes.
The truth is always way more boring.
That's what I realized.
Like I'd rather almost believe it was a humiliation ritual.
I don't believe Russia.
Yeah, good.
Humiliate is lying, yo.
Russ is dancing on that shit coming out.
And there's a video of you doing it.
We just haven't seen it.
All right.
We need all the dirt.
Like, obviously, I want to talk about Santiago.
I want to talk about the new single coming out.
And I was telling you before we did the pod, like, it was truly beautiful.
Like, go listen to the album because I think it took a lot of emotional work to get there.
I want to save a time where we can have a long form discussion about that.
But again, unique experience.
You're here and I want to know the dirt.
Yeah.
Okay.
How these labels fucking artists with the streams.
I don't know how they're doing it, but it feels like they're doing it.
And how are they tricking us?
Because I see these people that go crazy.
Album goes number one, but then they can't fill up a show.
Right.
So the math is not math.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, that's what it is.
But explain it.
I mean, so it's, it's, um, it's one of those things that like everyone in the industry knows is going on, which is faking the streams.
It's a real thing.
So the label buys the streams from Spotify?
So here's the deal.
When you talk to these people, because I've talked to these people, because I've been like, what's, what is this?
How are y'all doing this?
They never disclose the mechanics of like how they actually fake the streams.
There's like, you know, rumors of like streaming farms or we're delving out fucking computers in third world countries and hacking the back end to make it look like it's an IP from the U.S. Whatever, like all this nutty shit.
But the reality is the labels are spending money and, you know, devil's advocate, they're treating it like a marketing expense.
Because in a sense, it like almost is.
You're going to spend $100,000 on billboards.
You're going to spend $100,000 on streams.
Right.
What streams is going to put you in a playlist?
You're going to spend real money to get fake streams that equate to real money.
So that's why they think it makes sense because it's like, okay, the streams are fake, but the money's real.
So what do we care?
Especially they're not doing it with like up-and-coming artists who like you wouldn't believe it.
You know, they're doing it with people like where it's, okay, if you're, let's say your song has 500 million streams, right?
Organically.
But let's say with fake streams, now you're at 900 million.
No one's going to sit there and be like, this is more like a 500 million stream.
Yeah.
They're just going to be like, this is a big song.
Makes sense.
It has 900 million.
Honestly, so smart.
Yeah, they're not like, they're not doing it to the dude across the street and giving him a billion streams.
They're doing it to people who really can get half a billion, but let's just pump it to get 900.
Now you're getting number one.
Now you get number one.
Pay for a number one.
Oh, yeah.
What?
What is the number one cost?
I mean, that's crazy even to think about.
I mean, what is the number one song in America cost?
Look, the reality is this, you do have to have a real fan base to a certain extent.
You have to have people who are really consuming the music and your song has to actually be moving around organically.
Once it's that, then they'll push the button on it.
And it just depends, like, it's a campaign.
It could be like, it's like a 12-week campaign and it might be 60 grand, 70 grand, whatever it is.
That's it.
And it's to have the number ones on the bus.
And that's 70 grand, the ROI is crazy because that 70 grand might bring you back 200, 300.
Yeah, and even just seeing the song number one, you're more likely to check it out.
Now, how so?
Right, because people are cheap.
And it's just like the labels are like all CEOs at labels are obsessed with market share.
Like who has the market share?
Sony has 25%.
Market share means the amount of streamed songs at that moment.
Right.
Who total streams, how many percent there?
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
And there's like bonuses that are associated with.
That's their incentive structure.
If you're number one, you're going to get the trickle down.
So they're going to try to boost.
Right.
Now, maybe you can't quantify it, but you said you can't do it with any song.
You can take it from number 10 to number one, or you got to be like three.
And then I can't.
Look, Spotify even just put out this statement that said anything over what was it?
80% and 90%.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anything over 90%.
Like a call out.
So you could be 89% streams.
But that's what that's saying.
But over.
It's like, that was Spotify's way of saying, we know what's going on.
We're okay with it.
We're profiting off it.
It just can't, of course, because somebody doing a billion streams on your platform is a good look for your platform.
Yes, yeah.
Because you're bragging about the amount of streams on your platform.
Think about where Apple Music loses to Spotify.
One, they don't show the streams.
Two, when it came out like last year that there was only one song that has a billion streams on there, like it just doesn't look as sexy as Spotify.
And I feel like as a consumer, oh, nobody's listening to Apple Music.
Spotify must be better.
I don't know shit.
I'm just going to go with the bigger.
So the streams help the artists and the platforms.
Oh, yeah.
And the label.
So like everyone wins.
That's why nobody's going to say anything.
Think about it.
If you're invested in Spotify, if your money is in Spotify shares, you want to know that it's getting the most streams and it's beating Apple by X.
And the labels are invested.
I remember when I was the craziest shit.
I remember when I was with Columbia and Columbia, you know, there was a point in time where like they sold their shares of Spotify, whatever the fuck.
But everyone on the label, just depending on how many streams you were doing, you got to check.
I got a crazy check from Columbia selling their shares of Spotify.
Yeah.
Huh?
Why did you get that?
Crazy check.
Because I was doing a lot of streams on Spotify.
You get your share of the stream money.
Right.
Right.
So, so this is crazy.
Billy Corgan was on Rogan talking about this.
Did you see that?
No.
Where he was like, and I, again, I don't know how factual this is, but this is what he said.
He's like, the labels took equity pieces in the streaming platforms and then gave the streamers sweetheart deals on the artist's music.
So basically, we're going to charge you less for the artist's music, which means the artist gets less.
But we are personally going to take equity positions in those companies.
So give me a little bit of Spotify.
I'm going to give you this artist's music for little.
But when your brand builds because it needs us to build, I get that.
But you know who doesn't get that?
The artist.
The artist.
Which is crazy.
But it's like the artist uses all of that for leverage to go get sponsorships.
And it's all like fame driven.
Yeah.
It's all like the streams might be fake, but me being perceived as a massive artist.
Make money on the business.
It's real.
So now I'm getting this, now I'm getting that.
And I'm monetizing it with this brand or with this sponsorship, whatever it is.
So it's like, it's all just a fucking finesse and it's all a scam.
And there's some artists that are like, I'm just going to live off of my deal, right?
They're like, I don't even care if I make enough money to pay back the company or the label, whatever it is.
They're going to give me my advance.
That's what I make.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, and it's so funny when artists are like, I haven't seen the check since I got signed.
It's like, because you're not as good as making money.
What are you so confused about?
Yeah.
It's like you didn't make the money back.
As opposed to the artists don't know.
Oh, yeah.
I don't think any of the artists know that their streams are being faked.
Wow.
No, but that's, and here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
Nah.
But here's the thing.
That's why, first of all, I encourage every artist, audit your label.
Make sure there's an audit clause.
Like I'm auditing, you know, who I was with and a lot of money being found.
Yeah.
Because the reality is like you don't know.
There's a lot of things that are just hidden in those statements and the marketing expenses.
And the reason why, like, it's the, like, if you're assigned to a major label, right?
It's so easy to just deny everything because there's a buffer.
There's a label.
The label is the middleman between the fake streams and you.
So if it comes out that so-and-so is faking their streams, you could just play dumb.
Be like, I had no idea.
The label must have did it.
Yeah.
I didn't know what the label was spending their money on.
And when I have a hit song that has a billion streams, I'm not going to go, are we sure it's a little bit?
This is not me like speculating, right?
This is me talking to like top five most streamed artists in the world and them talking to CEOs and CEOs admitting.
Poof.
And me on the phone with like managers of massive artists and on the phone with the dude who fakes the streams and them saying like, what's going on?
Wow.
Dude, you know what?
I just not, it's not like a, I'm not sitting here like.
It's conspiratorial.
This is how it works.
I really think people are fake.
And like once you know, it's really easy to tell which songs are being faked.
Who's the most fake?
No, I can't see that.
Come on.
Listen, I'm not going to, we were talking on Brilliant Idiots and Charlamagne said it was a Drake song that came out.
It was a Drake and Scissors song.
Scissor, yeah.
And he was like, it went number one one week.
Yeah.
And the next week, it just fell off.
Right, right, right.
And he was like, listen, those are the types of things where you go, are these songs being pumped up by the label?
Because I think Doja Cat's song, Paint the Town Red, had been in that top five for weeks.
Right.
That you're not going to keep faking streams.
For real?
I'm not saying that she was doing that.
But you would fake streams.
But I'm just saying.
I'm just saying, like, this is the thing.
Think of the perception.
You're getting real, like, it has to be a song.
But there's going to be diminishing returns if you keep having to spend $100,000 every month, no?
Well, it's not $100,000 every month.
Because it's really just spending enough money to hack the algorithm.
So 6ix9ine was right.
Is that what you're trying to say?
What was he saying?
Depends on what he said.
Right about what you first said.
No, he said something about they took his number one by buying streams for some artists.
Yeah, I mean, like, the reality is they're not going to do it.
And it doesn't make sense to do it with something that's not already a moving train.
Got it.
When it's already a moving train, the public won't know the difference.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, if it's a song that genuinely has half a billion streams, if we juice it and now it has 900 million, like I said, you're not going to sit there and be like, nah, I don't believe it has 900 because it's massive organically.
So Donda and what was it, Certified Loverboy, when we were all really fixated on who was going to be number one?
Yeah.
Whoever was number one, theoretically, they could have just paid and for sure.
For sure.
And it almost makes me.
But it's like the labels are look, it's a business.
They're looking at it like we're protecting our investment and we're trying to obtain as much of the market share as possible.
And they also know, this is just like a psychology thing.
It's like fake commotion ends up creating real commotion.
You know what I'm saying?
Like if I'm just over here making a spectacle and it's a fake spectacle, the fake spectacle attracts real eyes.
And now the real eyes are over here like, what is that spectacle?
And now I have real people tuned in off of fake commotion.
And so here's a question because we all see academics that post about who sells what in the first week or whatever.
I think it was French Montana had like a really bad first week.
Is that French Montana standing on his own honor and being like, I refuse to play into this, buy any streams?
Or do you think the label might be like, we've assumed it's with a label, would be like, you know, we're kind of done with you.
And this is, you're going to have an embarrassingly low number because it's the real number, whereas everybody else is getting inflated.
But your shit is going to sit low.
I don't know what his situation is.
Well, I know, like, French is my guy, and I actually like helped him get the deal that he has.
I think French is great.
Yeah, I think he's all.
But it's like, yeah, either, you know, sometimes maybe it's not just so transparent where they're like, hey, do you want to fake your streams or not?
You know what I mean?
Or it's like, it's not a moving train.
So we're not going to push the button on it because it's not a moving train yet.
Yeah, if the album came out with some heat, then they could put the put it like this, right?
Put it like this, full transparency.
Now, I also know, and I've said this in interviews before, like, this is the thing I'm like worried about, is like me pointing the finger and calling shit out.
All that's going to happen is people like.
No, no, no.
You're faking your stream.
You know so much.
Right.
Like, how do you know?
And you were on the phone, nah.
You know what?
Who even listens to Russ?
You're faking your stream.
But now, but you got people coming out to shows.
I think that's the difference maker right there.
Real bodies.
But I will say this before transparency.
Like, this, like, this is the truth.
315 is a song I have that I put out, I don't know, two years ago, three years ago.
And right now it's doing, I don't know, 500,000 streams a day on Spotify.
There was a time where it was doing 800 and 900,000, right?
And the threshold to go into today's top hits is like they want to see you getting like 1.1, right?
And that's like, once you're in today's top hits, over with, right?
So we got on the phone because I was like, Milan, I hit my manager.
I was like, Milan, see what this guy, like, because I've like, low-key, I'm like planning like a fucking Vice documentary.
I'm like, expressing all this shit.
I'm like, Milan, hit this guy.
Like, what is the like process of this shit?
But it's like, so, so he talks to him and he's like, look, you know, you got to fake it.
This is the perfect song to do it because it's crushing organically.
Nobody's going to know the difference between 200,000 streams.
315 organically was the number before TikTok and Billboard did the thing where there was a billboard chart for TikTok songs.
315 was the number one song on TikTok in the world.
You know what I mean?
Organically.
So once again, if I was to boost that, what is anyone going to say?
No, I hear it everywhere on TikTok.
So it checks out.
Makes sense.
And we talked to the dude, or Milan talked to him and told us, you know, it's like an eight to 12 week campaign.
You spend 35, 40 grand, and like, that's it.
And then it's out of here.
And now, guess what?
Now it goes from, once again, it goes from 800,000 organic streams a day to now maybe it is doing that 1.2 million threshold.
And now Spotify puts it in today's top hits.
And now it's at 2 million.
Boom, boom, boom.
You see what I'm saying?
And now radio is like, wait, this is a smash.
It's a multiplier.
And so all of a sudden, that extra 400,000 streams that are fake get a whole bunch of real ears.
But I just could not live with myself if I did it because the reason why, like, and I'm going to be honest, it's so tempting.
Yep.
Right?
I've even tweeted about it before where it's like, wait a second.
If everyone's on steroids, am I an idiot?
Yeah.
It's the baseball shit.
Am I an idiot?
Right?
Like, am I being naive and almost childish where it's like, I'm sitting here still trying to like play the game the right way and everyone else is like, dog, what are you doing?
Like, you know, you know, we're all doing this, right?
And so I start, you know, I oscillate with like yes and no every day, but I just have faith and I know that that house is going to come crumbling down and I don't want to be in it when it does.
Because guess what it'll do?
It won't just be, oh, Russ, you faked the streams on 315.
It'll send the whole catalog to the question.
Right.
Especially because that would fucking ruin me.
Especially because you're independent.
Right.
If you're not independent, if you're already part of the label system.
Right.
Even if you put it all into question, they wouldn't be incentivized to tear them down.
But to you, there are people I'm sure that are part of the industry that have heard all the shit that you said and then see your success without them.
They're waiting for me to fake my the second if I did it, second I did it, oh, it would be Russ is faking the stream.
And let this be a lesson to all other independent artists.
Right, because guess what that narrative is?
Now the narrative would be, see, you can't get real success independent unless you fake your streams.
You got to be with the major.
So like, I just feel I owe it not just to myself, but to the whole like independent community to do it the real way.
And look, if that means that I have a ceiling here, then so be it.
But at least this is real.
Yeah.
Selling Music for Upfront Cash00:15:36
Why are y'all doing billions of streams and the tickets don't match?
Yeah.
Because that is explain that.
Because I'll see certain guys that I think are these huge artists.
Right.
Or girls too.
And it's like they can do the festival shows and people kind of know their songs at the festival shows.
Right.
But the festival is bringing in the people.
It's a soft ticket.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, who is so?
So how do you, how do you explain the discrepancy?
Yeah.
I mean, honestly, some of it I will say, like Devil's Advocate, I do think certain music is geared towards a certain environment.
Certain music is club music.
You're not going to an arena to hear club music.
Rap sucks live.
Let's just be honest.
Nah, not awesome.
Not on this one.
It's awful.
Rap is the worst music live.
It's so bad.
It's unbelievable.
Wait, what?
Give me an example of rap.
But Travis, I literally asked him afterwards.
I was like, yo, usually rap sucks live.
Like, why didn't this suck?
And he goes, he goes, he goes, I make music for the live show.
Right.
You also am specifically putting together these songs for this experience.
That's a great point, counterpoint.
You also saw 50 Cent the Night Before, and that was also incredible.
So I'm sure 50.
Your theory is falling apart pretty quickly.
50 was incredible.
I'm sure.
So we didn't see 50 in arena, but 50 in arena would be incredible.
Yeah, of course.
There's no question.
What I'm trying to say is, I can listen to a random person sing karaoke, and if their voice is amazing, it shuts it down.
Yeah.
Like you've seen those videos where people are singing a song in Italian and like in a restaurant.
Like they just come in and start singing, the whole restaurant starts singing.
Walk in, try to rap in a restaurant and see your ass get arrested immediately.
If it's great, it'll, I think.
Walk into a restaurant and start singing, lose yourself.
Get the fuck out of here.
Yo, I just got a chicken sandwich on a wear.
Lose my ring coffee.
I think genuinely after, depending on the restaurant.
But no, but to that point, it's like it depends on the music the environment was made for.
Yes.
So if it's car cruise and music where you're by yourself chilling, maybe you don't want to hear that in front of 18,000 people.
Right.
And maybe it's like, I don't want to hear two hours straight of it.
You know what I'm saying?
So I do think it's some of that, but also, yeah, it's the faking the streams.
It's, you know, guys, life tour.
Charlotte's.
Thank you so much for selling out the show.
We added a second show in Charlotte.
Also, Nashville, we are coming.
Austin, we are coming.
Phoenix, we add a second show.
San Francisco, you saw that all four shows.
That's incredible.
We'll see what we can do about that.
But thank you guys so much.
More cities are also available at theandrewschultz.com.
Go there.
If there are tickets left, go check them out.
And Philadelphia, you're up next.
I will see you there soon.
Peace.
Yo, San Jose, thank you guys so much.
That was crazy.
They had just expanded the club.
We still sold it out.
And we had more people coming after.
We filled up every standby ticket we could possibly fill.
Other people still didn't get in.
That was amazing.
One of the best weekends of my comedy life.
Thank you so much.
Also, February 23rd and 24th, Oklahoma City.
We're not doing the 22nd anymore.
I have to film a little something.
You will see what it is soon.
But Oklahoma City, February 23rd and 24th.
And March 1st and 2nd, Greensboro, North Carolina.
I'm excited to be in a place that might not be so cold in March.
So hurry up and buy your fucking tickets to that.
March 8th and 9th, Stanford, Connecticut, April 11th through 13th, Tempe, and April 18th through 20th, Denver, Colorado.
We're doing another 420 show at Comedy Works, this time at the bigger location.
Let's see what happens.
Get those tickets and more at akashing.com.
Now let's get back to the show.
Can you break down independent?
I feel artists throw out.
What is independent?
Because some people got a distro, but they're independent.
I know.
I have, yeah, it's kind of gotten.
Like, you even said you were signed, but then you say you're right.
Yeah, I'll just be fully transparent, even though I've posted when I literally partnered.
But I partnered with Columbia in 2016.
Summertime.
You laugh too a lot.
They don't say I'm not signed on part.
Right, right.
No, but I partnered because they didn't own my masters.
And the big piece was my back catalog that was on Toon Core.
They didn't touch.
So I had hundreds of songs.
ToonCore, can you tell us casuals what ToonCore is?
First breakdown.
So yeah.
So ToonCore, very quick, is just, it's a digital distribution service.
You pay $50 a year.
You put up as much music as you want.
You keep 100% of the profits.
Right.
So I had all this music up on ToonCore and I created all this leverage because shit was going crazy.
I was already touring.
And I partnered with Columbia because at that time in 2016, it was a way different landscape.
It's like Apple Music didn't even come out till 2015.
I remember I had like what they want was in Rap Caviar back when Tuma Basa was running Rap Caviar and I didn't even know what the fuck Rap Caviar was.
Like that's how new everything was.
So I signed because I was looking around the game and I was like, I want to be a massive artist.
I want to be on radio.
And I'm listening to everyone on radio.
I'm like, they're all signed.
So let me level the playing field.
That was the intention, right?
So I partnered, but I kept my back catalog.
I kept 100% ownership.
And everything I did with Columbia was, y'all get 50, I get 50.
Super.
Don't keep the full master.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's like, that feels fair to me.
You know, y'all putting up money, like, whatever.
Let's rock out.
And then in 2020, I believe, went just back fully indie, done with the deal.
Why didn't it work out?
Why were you not?
It just got to the point where I realized the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and they couldn't do anything for me that I couldn't do for myself.
So that's my question.
Like you gave them 50%, which means you need to essentially double your profits that you could do on your own for it to be break even.
Right.
Right.
Did you more than double being with them?
Yeah.
Oh, so there was value in being with them.
Well, I was, like I said, it was a moving train.
I was going to make money anyway.
Got it.
So also, yeah, we're not counting how much you would have made off your next album with all the hype and everything.
So you didn't think that they offered enough value to continue.
I think at a certain point, once like the game sort of began to progress, and once I started to see the big thing for me was like them getting told no.
That was big.
What do you mean?
Meaning I, which I know a lot of up-and-coming artists think like this.
Oh, well, you get with a label and then you just get told yes to being on that playlist and yes to being on radio.
Oh, so they're getting told no and you're like, I'm like, then you get with the label by myself.
Literally, that was the exact thought.
And I told them that I said, I can get told no.
So those people, those boardroom meetings, right?
Some of those people sitting around the table, one of them is the Spotify and Apple rep. And you got to make him get away from it.
It's just them calling.
Realistically, like, y'all should be on the table, right?
You're trying to sell me.
Get them to pitch you.
I'm going to get you on Rap Caviar.
Yes, no, but it's like this.
Once you realize, and once I saw that, all right, it's just a human being calling Spotify or Apple, like, hey, of our 70 releases we have this Friday, you guys should really consider us for these playlists.
And they can get told no.
And I was like, well, wait a second.
I can also get told no and keep 100%.
Yeah.
You know, so, and when you talk to these people at the playlist, who do you think they would rather talk to?
The dude at the label or the artists?
Yeah.
They're all in the music business to be cool with the artists.
Yeah, they don't want to talk to the square too.
Yeah, and who's going to sell it better?
Yeah.
Because guess what?
The person at the label who's pitching your song to the playlist, right after he pitches yours, he's pitching seven others.
And it's harder to tell you no than it is to tell the label, though.
Exactly.
Like you're on the phone fighting for your shit.
Right.
Right.
They're not going to be like, nah.
No, but they have no problem telling this dude no.
It's also the ego stroke that they get when the artist themselves is calling them.
Yeah, that's an element.
It's going to be on the playlist.
Exactly.
And it's like, and to be honest, I would rather be in direct communication with like who is responsible for maybe getting my music heard by more people.
But yeah, once I realized, like, wait a second, y'all get told no.
It's not a guarantee.
Playlisting, radio, none of that's a guarantee with y'all.
All you can guarantee is like a big bag of money up front.
Which is the most attractive part to a lot of people.
But, right?
But that's your money they're giving you.
And it comes with a crazy interest rate.
And it's like, what are they giving?
That's the thing a lot of people don't realize.
They're giving.
They're giving you shitty rent.
But it's not even a loan because a loan wouldn't be taxed.
If you took a loan from a bank saying there's no tax on it.
No, it's a tax.
That's not necessarily income.
It's a crazy situation.
Now, what I'm saying.
The government's taking half immediately, but you got to pay back the full thing.
Right.
I never understood that.
So it was handy.
Remember that Jay-Z line?
Y'all still taking advances, huh?
I was like, what's wrong with advances?
I'm like, that's the dumbest shit ever.
So let's just do, just quick math.
Let's say they front you $5 million.
You take that $5 million.
Government immediately comes and takes two and a half.
But you still owe five?
No.
Well, it depends what you're dealing with.
So what you do is you get the five, because you don't want to give as much money to the government.
You pay commissions on the five first.
Of course, you can write off your computer.
But most people have, you know, manager on 20, lawyer on five.
Sure.
Business manager on five.
So that's 30.
So off top, what is that?
That's if we're going up 1.5 at 1.5 million.
So down there.
Okay, so you're at 3.5.
Now you cut the 3.5 and a half to the 1.75.
1.75.
So you got 5%.
That's really what five is.
And that's before you spend anything.
And you got to spend that on production.
You got to send that on fees.
Because that's your recording advance.
So just think about that.
That's to me handcuffs.
Now, there is a way to kind of, because I've spoken to certain companies about deals, right?
Yeah.
And I'm like, so what's the advantage?
What is the advantage of this?
It seems like you're just giving me all the money up front, right?
And I guess what I could do is if I was like financially literate, which I'm not, I could like invest it in smart ways.
I don't know how to do that.
I genuinely don't.
And I just tell them straight up.
So it's like, it seems to me what this does is just kind of like shackles me to you.
And I guess I get some money up front, but that money isn't my money.
I have to make that money anyway.
Yeah.
So, but what I did ask is, what if we did a loan instead of in advance?
Because a loan is technically not taxable with income tax.
You only get taxed based on what you make back against that loan.
Right.
So you can, you know what I mean?
There are certain ways around it, but it is kind of fucked up, how it is fucked up.
Because if I five.
Five times to 1.7 million.
Well, and a lot of people also think, well, if they give me five, you know, that incentivizes them to get their money back.
It's no, the whole label is cross-collateralized.
That's the other thing.
Meaning, guess what?
If I give you five and I give you five and I give you five and I give you five and these three flop and you make 50 mil back, I don't care that these three.
And nor am I even going to pay attention to these three.
You got to think of it almost like you're the one keeping the lights on.
It's a venture capitalist that like it doesn't matter.
We only need one of these investments to work out.
It's the same now.
What's a distribution deal?
Distribution deal is more so.
There's no ownership of masters.
The splits are way more favorable.
So like you go to empire, maybe you get an 80-20, which is just like, it's a profit split.
Like there's no, they don't own the masters, right?
And they usually offer label services.
So that's where it's like, back to the very original, like, what is independent?
Yeah, I mean, there's different variations because independent to some people is, well, I'm just not with a major label.
It's like, all right, so you're not with a major label, but you're with that label who has major label services and you got an advance and they do label services.
It's like, I guess.
You know, I guess.
Yeah, that, like, in a sense, if that is your definition of independent, I'm just not with a major.
then yeah, you're independent.
But for me, for a while, you know, before Columbia, I was independent in the sense that I didn't depend on anyone to do anything for me.
And even post-Columbia, that's what it was, up until the Santiago album where, you know, I've been putting music out similar with ToonCore is video, right?
Vidya is another like digital distribution, right?
I pay $50 a year because I have a great relationship with the CEO, pay $50 a year, put out as much music as I want.
It's the same shit as ToonCore.
But will they collect the money on your behalf so they recognize every time it's been played on radio streams?
Yeah, it's the same thing as ToonCore.
Everything is like, yeah, monitored and registered and collected.
So there's an RSS feed or something that goes.
Yeah, there's a back end.
There's a portal and you log in and you can see what everything's doing and how much money you withdraw it, send it to your bank account.
So every was played on this time 100 times.
They owe you $10,000 from that.
That all comes back.
And I get paid every Friday.
It's been like that since 2011.
Gotcha.
So instead of that going to the label and then the label distributes it to you, ToonCore can just do it to a customer, by the way.
And artists on major labels, it's a semi-annual check if you're recouped.
So if you're recouped, you're getting paid twice a year.
Twice.
So, so, so.
That's if you're recouped.
You get paid in the, like in March, April, and you get paid in fucking September, October.
You know, it's fucking hilarious, which I make this joke with like my team all the time just because of like when I left the deal and kind of how it works out.
My birthday is September 26th.
And so every year, ever since I left Columbia, they like send me a check for a meal like on my birthday because it's like, that's when the semi-annual date falls.
So I always know that like on my birthday, they have to get a bad spot.
That's actually a nice little birthday present.
It is.
They hate that present.
I know.
I'm always like, I know they're fucking throwing something.
So the cross-collateralized thing is really interesting also.
Yeah.
Because I imagine that that's part of the idea around the 360 deal, which is, it's really just more protection from them.
Of course.
So it's like, I think.
We don't need your music to sell.
We'll get it on the merch.
So we gave you that $5 million.
We need $5 million back.
You only have $1.75 after paying commissions and taxes and whatever.
So even if you paid us that back, we still need the other 3.25.
Right.
So if your album does nothing, but we throw you in these, you know, what's it called shows, we send you around the world, we're getting that 3.75 off of these other things.
I think our perception on 360 was they just want a little piece of everything.
It's like, no, they don't even know if you're going to make money.
Right.
But if you do.
That's like the interesting thing, right?
Is like this whole notion.
This might come off crazy, but it's the reality.
It's like, oh, it's a bad deal.
For who?
For who?
For the artist.
The label's signing good deals.
Oh, they're signing good deals.
You know what I'm saying?
And that's like, and that's what people are not.
Artists need to go into these meetings understanding its business.
Yes.
They are not about to sign a bad deal.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Which is why you need leverage to make them sign a deal that they normally wouldn't want to sign, but they don't want to lose out on your potential.
It is funny how they get salty when they're on the wrong end of the deal, though.
Of course.
Yeah.
Of course.
I feel like we should understand its business and they should understand its business.
Yeah, for sure.
Can you talk about the dollars and cents when it comes to streams when you're independent and with a label?
So if you get a million streams independent or a million streams with a label, how much money does the artist get?
A million streams independent is like on Spotify, four grand, give or take.
If you're independent?
Yeah.
If you own 100% of the song.
Got it.
And then if you're with a label, how much do you get?
You may not see anything.
Let's say you're already recouped.
How much is a million streams?
It depends on what your split is with the label.
It's the same for a grand.
It's a 54-3.
But I thought Spotify has deals with record labels where it's like they get bigger.
Better rates.
Yeah, sometimes it's like tier one rates or tier two rates.
Yeah, but some of these, that's why you got to be careful which distro you go to because some of these distros don't have the tier one rates that the labels have.
Million Streams vs Label Deals00:12:57
They might have tier two rates, so they're actually getting less money per stream than a major label.
Okay.
Independent's getting.
Oh, yeah.
Like TuneCore.
Yeah.
Toon Core, Vidia, you're getting what the labels get.
Yeah.
You're getting what the labels are.
You're getting the same rent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're getting the same.
But the reality is like Drake is getting more money per stream than the up-and-coming artist.
Why is that?
Because he's bringing more to Spotify.
Yeah, he's more valuable to the streamer.
Oh, yeah.
He's going to get more.
He's got a better deal.
He's going to get more.
Yeah, he's going to get more.
I'm not even mad at that, though.
Like, once again, people never, like, people never consider the other side.
It's like, bro, this is a storefront, right?
Yeah.
That is allowing you.
Stop with the entitlement.
It's allowing you to sell your music in their store.
You don't have any leverage to say, this is some bullshit.
You got this dude who's bringing y'all way more money, getting paid more than me.
It's like, yeah.
What are you talking about?
Did you put Nike in the storefront or your fucking brand that nobody's ever written?
Oh, I don't know Drake's deal.
I'm sure.
Isn't he doing like something?
No, I think he did resign.
I think they gave him a crazy bag.
The Apple one?
No, no, no.
Like, he re-signed, I think, with Republic, and I think he got a disgusting bag, as he should.
I think I know what y'all know is what was online.
Fucking three, four.
Who knows?
I mean, they're going to get it back.
That's the thing.
It's a guarantee they get back.
And it might be cross-collateralized with his past.
Oh, it is cross.
It has to be.
That's how you're going to be able to do it.
So you can get it back off of the old stuff anyway.
Well, think about it.
It's like if you're with the label for five years, right?
Five years, five albums, and you've generated 200 million with that label.
You go into another label.
They can't give you 200 up front because you're starting from scratch.
The label you've already made all this money with, that's your best chance to get the biggest bag because they can just cross-collateralize it.
Once again, they protect themselves with your past work.
Each album is the investment.
So guess what?
If we own Drake or Nikki or Ariana Grindi or Taylor Swift's catalog, even if her next album or next five albums flop, we're making 500 mil off these last sevens.
It doesn't matter.
And Drake knows that too.
So the number's going up with what he asked for.
He's like, these albums don't even need a hit.
No, because these are going to get played for the next time.
I'm saying it's more because it's macro.
Exactly.
In totality.
It's the whole library.
I'm a lucrative product.
But doesn't he have enough money, incentive, and popularity to go independent after his deal.
Sure, but he just, I don't know.
He just may not want to.
Because there is a, there's something to be said that's not right or wrong.
You know, not every path is for everyone.
Some people like they don't, being independent takes a lot of work, a lot of like entrepreneurial spirit.
Not saying that he or anyone else doesn't have it, but it's just some people, they want to show up.
And grab them and like, yo, send me, send me my big ass bag.
Make sure all my shit's on radio.
I'll talk to y'all when I talk to y'all.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Which there's nothing wrong with that.
I get that.
Me, I'm just like, I'm just really, really obnoxiously hands-on.
I like being hands-on.
I like every aspect of my career.
I like the business side.
I like every, I really do.
Like I genuinely have a passion for every side of it.
There's certain comics that I'll talk to, right?
And I'll explain, like, if I'm just trying to give them some game, I'll just explain what they need to do in order to achieve what they want.
Right.
And I'll really kind of spell it out.
Yeah.
And then I'll develop different models for them.
I'll be like, listen, if you don't want to learn how to edit, if you want to learn how to subtitle, if you don't want to bring a camera, like I bring a camera bag to every show by myself, put it up in the back of the fucking room, move some tables out of the way.
It gets knocked over halfway through the set.
I got to ask some security guard to stand by it.
Like, figure out how to do audio.
It's a lot.
And sometimes I can tell they don't want to do all that.
Sure.
So I'm like, you know what?
You might need a partner with somebody who's going to do all that.
Right.
Or you need to bring somebody up.
In that case, that's what I did with Al.
Put somebody.
I was like, listen, I want you to handle this aspect of the biz.
And there's certain people that they just don't know how to do it.
They're not industrious.
It's not one of their passions.
And it might be better for them to lose that 10% or that 20%.
Right.
Put your energy towards something else.
Straight up.
And I think to that point, a lot of people just like, be honest with yourself.
You know, who are you?
What are you willing to do?
And the thing that trips me out is like, if you determine that you're not willing to be this industrious entrepreneurial type of spirit, if that's like, you realize that's not real to you, it's like, okay, you bring in someone or a company and they give you millions of dollars and take this massive gamble on you.
Of course you don't have the leverage in the situation.
They're taking all the risk.
You know what I'm saying?
Like if you determine that, oh, I just want to make songs and I want y'all to risk millions of dollars on me, why would you have the good deal in that situation?
Yep.
Yeah.
They're taking all the risk.
Life is leveraged.
And I think the reality, and maybe like, maybe in the future, this is what's going to happen, but artists have a louder voice than labels.
And I'm not advocating for labels.
I've never been anti-label.
I've been anti-bad deals.
I've been anti-exploitation.
I've been anti-not owning your shit.
I've never been, oh, anti-major label.
It's just anti-bad deals.
But the artists have a louder voice than the labels.
So maybe in the future, labels like will be famous.
Like the dude at the label is famous and he has a voice and he's saying like, look, we spent millions of dollars.
We risked millions of dollars on you.
You had 10,000 monthly listeners and we still put up 2 million on your potential.
Why would you get the bigger end of the straw?
Makes no sense.
Yeah.
I think it's logical.
Yeah.
I think it makes sense.
Think just like, like, remove the labels and all this shit.
Like, if you got a friend who needs, like, you know, they're a musician or whatever.
And they're like, oh, I really want to do this music thing.
Take away music.
Do it with a restaurant.
Restaurant.
Okay, fine.
Sorry.
Yeah, go, go, go.
And it's like they don't want to do anything but like run the restaurant, whatever the fuck they want.
They want to cook food, bro.
They want to cook food.
That's all they want to do.
But they need the money.
They need $2 million to open up a restaurant.
So you give them $2 mil, and then they're confused when the money comes in that you're getting more.
It's like, I'm cooking food.
Why are you doing it?
It's like, motherfucker.
Like, this doesn't happen.
Yeah.
Like, not even this doesn't happen.
It's like, I took all the risk.
You don't get paid for work.
You pay for risk.
Yes.
Right.
Exactly.
And it's like, I think a lot of times artists forget that.
Now, that's not to say that they could take advantage.
No, like I said, anti-exploitation, but at the same time, like be real with yourself.
If you are somebody who's like, I'm not willing to do anything but go to the studio and y'all should take all the risk.
That's fine.
But then also know what kind of situation you're going to end up being in.
It's going to be them.
They're going to come out on top because they're taking all the risk.
Curious to hear what's your opinion on residencies.
Because I feel like the look of them has changed.
Like they used to be like, oh, no.
Your career's done.
You're on the back nine of your career.
It's like, yeah, people want residencies.
What Usher did was fantastic.
Britney Spears.
Britney, I think, is a little loony bin, but like she just got a what makes you say that?
She got kicked out of the four seasons forever because she went naked into the pool or something like that.
Oh, that's fine.
They just put Britney really gone through it.
Let's go.
Have you smashed?
What?
I don't know.
You're famous, bro.
I never met a famous musician, bro.
He said, I never met her.
That's why.
There's a clip of her running naked on the beach to what they want.
No, yeah.
That's why I asked that question.
Yeah, I figured it was in the ether, bro.
Yeah, right.
No, I mean, residencies for me, like, I'm not going to Vegas like that.
Saudi, though, you could, you could have a residency for the next one.
And that's nothing against Vegas.
I love the Vegas fans.
I'm just like, the city to me is like, I can't.
It's going to eat away.
I just don't like the environment like that.
You need to be someplace else, special.
Yeah, I think if it's a caucus, New Jersey.
G's up, Sekakis.
I think if it makes sense for you, yeah.
I mean, you know, you go somewhere six times a year and you already love the place anyway.
Yeah.
And they're giving you a meal or whatever.
It's like, yeah, why not?
Do you think younger artists should start doing residencies or have the yeah, because I mean, it's soft ticket.
You know what I mean?
And a lot of times, like.
Can you explain what that means for people?
Soft ticket is people were going to be there anyway.
So like if I perform at a club on a Friday night, it's a soft ticket show because guess what?
If I'm not there, there's still by club, you mean like if you go to live or 11 in Miami, like if there was already going to be people there, exactly.
Whereas with Vegas casinos, there's already people that there's already people there, and they're going to look for something to do besides gamble.
You're just the entertainment for the night.
Exactly.
So it's soft ticket as opposed to like, yo, I'm at Barclays.
Pull up.
Like that's like, if y'all don't show up, no one's nobody was at Barclays that night.
Yeah.
And then, oh, Russ is here?
You all.
Right.
You're the ticket.
So, yeah, I mean, it's a soft ticket play.
So the pressure's off of you because there's going to be people there anyway.
You don't need to do crazy promotion about it because there's going to be people there anyway.
Yeah, I mean, smart.
Do it.
Also on like production costs if you're part of your destination.
Yeah, I mean, or risk 10 arena cities or let me do a bang up show at a place where we all know Vegas, everyone's coming in from everywhere anyway.
Especially if it's not a market that you're strong in with hard tickets.
So you're not taking away from what you like.
I would never do it in LA because LA is my strongest market hard ticket wise.
But in a market where I may be not so strong hard ticket wise, and they want to give me a residency, who do I care?
I wasn't going to sell tickets there anyway like that.
Also, like lifestyle, like Usher is how old?
40?
40 something?
Say in his 40s is like, do you want to be on a plane every single night for this tour?
Or do you want to park yourself for a month in Vegas, bring your family there, chill?
Yeah.
And a lot of them live in LA and fly or until we flight this 30 minutes.
Yeah, it's definitely, yeah.
It just has to align with like your lifestyle for sure.
For me, it doesn't really.
Do you feel like the labels are mad at you for exposing and talking about the bad deals?
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't bode well for them.
So I'm sure they're not like thrilled.
Have you felt any heat or pressure from them in any way?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They've called radio stations and like, you know, threatened radio to be like, you play his shit.
I'm not giving you the new.
Yeah.
Really?
Why don't you expose them?
Because then what?
Like, actually call him out like labels.
Because I think what I learned is it just doesn't matter.
It just doesn't matter.
So I say that and then what?
Realistically.
Because I'm on an island, right?
So I say it.
I dig my heels in the sand and I say, these people over there, they're trying to fuck me.
It's like, well, bro, what'd you expect?
There's this whole circle right here of people on the inside that are trying to protect this.
And you're over here.
You're surprised they're doing everything they can to shut this down.
People don't like bullies.
And it's like, if we hear a story of a big bully is trying to blackball this independent young artist.
Like, yeah, I think that would gavinize loyal people to support.
Maybe.
But I think it would do more harm than good.
Then you have other people who might be like, oh, he's complaining.
He's making this up.
It would more so be that narrative of you're just bitter, you're just mad.
And it would also like the labels are in cahoots with everything in everyone.
So you attack one, you say.
That's like, yeah, it's like, oh, you want to come out and say this?
Well, kiss your complex interview goodbye.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, it just, it does more harm than good.
And I've already said what I needed to say.
You know?
And is radio even still a massive driver of radio still is it?
Radio still is valuable.
It's still, yeah, there's still a game there to be played, especially at pop radio.
You make a shit ton of money on the publishing side.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like if you get a number one at pop radio, it's the publishing check is bananas.
Yeah, it's a program.
There are still people.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
And you get and like, look, the reality is, you know, I did those three stadiums with Ed Sheeran and I saw firsthand like the difference between an arena and a stadium.
When you look at Stadium Acts, radio, superstars.
Stadium Monitors and Crowd Feel00:11:44
Because you know why?
I'll tell you why.
Guess who's going to the stadium show?
Parents and your kids.
Yeah, it's tough.
Guess who listens to the radio?
Parents.
Parents.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what takes you from like, like, I did Hollywood Bowl 17,000 people, right?
It's like, all right, well, Rose Bowl, 70,000.
Yeah.
That's a big jump.
It's a massive jump.
What was the first stadium?
Was it Melissa?
Levi Stadium.
Where's that?
Santa Clara.
It's like where the 49ers play.
So you go.
This dude broke this fucking Super Bowl record.
That's unbelievable.
He's not even from here.
You know what I mean?
Wait, okay, so break it down.
So you and Ed are there.
You're opening for Ed or you come out during his set?
Both.
Okay, so you come out opening.
I do a 45-minute set and then like 10 songs into his set or whatever, he brings me out and we do a song together.
How many people are there when you go on?
You know what?
It was damn near packed because someone went on before me.
Okay.
So on, I'm direct support.
So I went on right before Ed.
So maybe not at the first song, but halfway through my shit, it's pitch black outside.
And it's fucking, when I say put the lights up, it's the whole shit.
So, but break down, like maybe early in your career, like sometimes the opening acts, people are still walking their seats.
It's tough.
It's tough.
Yeah, even in comedy, you see this, like, and it's something where we try to really avoid it.
Especially when you know they're not there for you.
That's the tough part.
But what I feel like is with at least LA is your biggest market, Santa Clara is like, how far from LA?
A couple hours.
Okay.
It's like San Francisco.
San Francisco.
That's where the Niners play.
Oh, I'm thinking Santa Ana.
No.
No, so I guess it's way close to San Jose.
But California in general is like a massive.
Okay, so you went up there.
There, your fans out there too.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Did it feel like a rush concert for those 45 minutes?
No.
No.
But what I'll say is.
What's the difference?
What I'll say is that.
Yeah, like, I'm like, fucking I do it myself.
And it's like, you got to sing all his shit.
You are going to do it yourself.
Yeah.
We're not singing for you.
We're not here.
No, but what I'll say is with the stadium, there's so many fucking people that you can't even see.
You really can only see the first couple rows.
And the first couple rows for me, even at my own shows, it dictates the whole energy.
And so the first couple rows at the shows, it was filled with fans of mine who are so like diehard.
So I was, I was right at home.
It was fine.
It was completely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You want one?
One in Rome.
Okay, so any adjustment with the stadium, though?
Size?
Is that...
No, you know what?
And I've said this before about arenas.
Arenas and stadiums are easier to do than like performing for 80,000 people way easier than performing for this amount of people.
Oh, yeah.
Because this amount of people, like...
Y'all are all just right here.
There's no hiding and there's no, like it's so intimate, 80,000 people.
You're sort of I don't know, it's like surreal.
You're just kind of like you're there and they're there, but y'all are not that connected.
I don't know how to explain it.
It's yeah, oh yeah, for sure, for sure.
I don't know what that is, but probably once you get them moving too, it's like a trend, like that momentum is so well and the energy so palpable and, like I said, it's just, it's different than feeling like I need to personally connect with each seven people in the room right now, because there's only seven, there's 80,000 people.
I just need to like crush this and be in my world and like feed off the energy and whatever.
But yeah, I don't know it was.
It was an experience.
What's the smallest show you ever did?
Oh man, probably like uh, 40 people oh no, what am I talking about?
Four people Atlanta, 20.
I'll tell you the exact date, December 6, 2014.
Okay, four people yeah, what's the venue?
Masquerade in Atlanta.
Okay, you show up, you do the whole show?
No, so diamond, the label that me and my boy started.
We were like gung-ho about the show, the showcase that we, like had set up.
Like yo, it's December 6th and everyone pull up.
We got a fuck.
Like my dad got us a fucking limo or something and we like thought we were.
We thought we were the shit.
We're like in the limo with like champagne bottles and we're taking pictures of the marquee.
We show up and literally four people and we crushed, oh, you did the whole show.
Oh yeah like, and I mean, that was the thing back then, bro.
It was like all you had to go off of was your delusional confidence in yourself, so that like, for me it didn't matter who was in the crowd, I was.
I envy that person, sometimes characteristics of that person, because I was just happy to be on stage.
I didn't care, like who was in the audience was irrelevant, I was just happy to be in a light that I always saw myself in.
Oh wow, so there's no embarrassment like, oh my god, none at all, none at all.
Wow, none at all.
I like I felt zero embarrassment for that night.
More embarrassment for in a 7 000 cap venue, if only 6 000 show up wow yeah, do you keep in touch with those four people at all?
I assume you guys connected after the show.
Yeah, some of them are.
Like, we call him.
One of his name is uh, Nick Everett.
And like we call me and Boogis, who I started Diamond with, like we refer to a lot of like people, I was like, oh yeah, he's a Nick Everett.
It's this dude from Tennessee.
Yeah, he was the first one to get like the logo tattooed on him.
He was at every show like yeah, but it's like to me I don't know man, like that's what that's.
What makes all this so much sweeter is because I like I wasn't.
I'm one of those artists who, and I feel for these kind of artists who you blow up and you haven't even done a show yet.
Where are you supposed to go from here?
Like you got songs with hundreds of millions of streams and you haven't done a show yet.
That's fucking terrifying.
I would have been fucked if that happened.
How long did it take you to get your show good?
Oh, man.
It took me a minute and I'm glad I got to do it in sort of that, you know, circuit of when no one was really paying attention.
Like by the time I was really doing shows, I was okay.
You know what I mean?
But like, I feel for people like Lil Nas X or, you know, Olivia Rodriguez.
Got ripped.
Like, it was her first time on stage.
She's like, was that her first time?
It was an outdoor show.
She did something and they were kind of clowning her.
It's like, she's literally never performed in front of people.
I remember when Olivia Rodrigo, she blew up and the shit went crazy and she posted her first tour and it was like 2,500 caps.
And like, obviously she could have done arenas.
And everyone was like, what the fuck?
Like, because her fans are like, there's so many of us.
Why would you book such small rooms?
Because she got to learn how to handle it.
She's never done this.
Even 2,500 is a long time for the first time.
Bro, when I tell you, like, I remember 2014, Dame from Funk Volume, which was like the label that Hopsin was on, right?
I remember he had reached out 2014 and he was like, we were talking about maybe doing a deal.
He brings me out to Colorado to like do a set before Hopsin and Funk Volume and shit.
And I brought Bugas.
And I remember being in the parking lot.
The venue was Cervantis Ballroom.
It was 1,100 people.
And I was freaking the fuck out in the parking lot, like 1,100.
Whoa.
And I remember getting up on stage.
Like, I remember asking Bougis, like, yo, can you just come up on stage with me?
Cause this is like, I don't even think I can do this.
And I remember going up on stage and 1,100 people, it might as well have been a million.
It felt so out of control.
It felt like what's crazy is if I had never done anything past that point, that person would just think I naked it.
It's like, what do you mean?
Perform for 1,100 people.
It felt so crazy.
And it just, moments like that help me maintain perspective on how big things have gotten and how real shit is.
And it gives me the ability to have empathy for artists, like you said, like Ice Biser, Olivia Rodrigo.
Any of these people, 2,500 people is insane.
1,100 isn't 500 is insane.
You don't understand.
Like if you haven't done this shit yet and you go up, you just get thrusted up on stage.
You got 300, 400 people, like you got to entertain us.
It's a lot if you've never done that.
There's a lot of pressure on that, especially if it's like, yo, we're here for you.
We're the ones supporting your music.
Don't let us down.
It's a lot.
What was the last show you did where you felt that pressure of like that opening show with 1,100 people?
Hollywood Bowl and Staple Center.
I was a little like, little freaked out right before I walked out.
It's weird because I don't get nervous before shows anymore because I know they're all there for me.
And like, it's like clockwork.
Like I do this in my sleep, right?
Staple Center was like, oh, fuck.
Yeah, you got to bring it.
And I wasn't nervous until like literally as I'm walking out and I was like, whoa, like, yeah, this is Staples because I'm looking up and it's sold out up to the fucking boxes up top.
I'm like, dog, like, this is the Lakers game.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because, you know, when you like, you know, when you do an arena, like, they customize the whole back area.
So like on the ground, instead of like, you know, a basketball, whatever the fuck logo they had, it's like circles with my name.
And like the fucking owner of Live Nation has given me iPads with like, congrats, you sold out Staples and a theme shit.
I'm like, holy fuck, bro.
Like, my parents are here.
Like, people are watching.
How was the show?
It was crazy.
Could you, did you lock in during it?
Or were there moments where you were actually reflecting on the fact that you were.
I think a lot of times, and I wonder if artists, I disassociate on stage sometimes.
Yeah, yeah.
Where like it's almost like y'all are watching me have an imposter syndrome in the middle of my set.
Because I'm sad, like a lot of times during songs, I'm like, I can't believe this is just happening, bro.
It's like, what are these people doing here?
Then you got to like remind yourself, stay like, oh, God.
Yeah.
Tom Thompson.
Yeah.
I mean, Staples Center was one of those ones.
I was like, especially because that time I wasn't doing in-ears.
In-ears means you have the song playing from the monitors.
How do you not do in-ears?
Yeah.
So like, I fucking hated in-ears because I wanted to be a monk.
I want to say that.
10 million ears for the first time.
So in-ears is this.
Like, if you do in-ears, like traditionally, all you're going to hear, you're wearing headphones, right?
You see the artist, they have that like FBI shit in their ear while they're.
All you're going to hear is the backing track.
You hear no crowd.
It's like you're in the studio.
So you're a little detached from the crowd.
You're performing and you just hear your vocals that you're singing over the backing track, over the instrumental, and you're looking at the crowd and they're just like, what the fuck?
Yeah.
So I just never fucked with that, right?
So no in-ears.
And so that's like crazy to people in the music business because like, how did you even hear yourself?
And how did you?
Did you have the monitors high on the stage?
Yeah, I always would have the monitors super high on the stage.
So monitors high.
And I would just wing it.
They're the speakers on the stage that actually face the artist.
Yeah.
And that's kind of how you can see how you sound.
But I agree with you.
Like feeling the audience is important.
And like that can be distorted if you're only hearing a bad track.
Even now, I use in-ears, but I do one-in-one out.
One in one out seems like a compromise.
You got to hear them.
That's what you feed off of.
It's tough.
Like, I tried to do, you know, where your monitor guy sort of tries to like ride the crowd volume.
Oh, I don't like that.
I hate.
You know what I mean?
Like, all of a sudden you're performing.
Tell him.
Every time when we're doing the walkthrough, I have to tell him, I go, I might get quieter.
Don't leave it.
You're doing that on purpose.
No In-Ears on Stage00:04:47
Yeah, exactly.
One DB.
No, of course.
Because it throws you off.
It does.
It does.
All of a sudden, it's loud.
You're like, oh, and you might be using your volume as a tool.
Right.
Right.
Also, guys, I know you're enjoying this episode with Russ, but I got to give you your prize picks for this week.
You're Sing Rocks for Super Bowl Sunday.
That was very alliterative.
Here we go.
We ready?
First of all, prize picks, shouts, giving you a free square, practicing the homes, more than a half a yard.
That's done.
Isaiah Pacheco, I think, gets more than 64 and a half yards rushing.
And I think Travis Kelsey gets more than a half a touchdown because Taylor Swift is going to be there and she don't lose.
And last, I might just be a hater, but I don't think George Kittle hits his mark.
I think he gets less than 47 and a half yards receiving.
Prizepicks.com, guys.
And if you use the promo code Schultz, they will match your initial deposit up to $100.
So you put up $100, you get $100 for free.
Why don't you gamble with $100 free dollars?
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Now let's get back to the show.
How was it at the pyramids?
Insane.
Yeah, can you explain like how that goes?
Did you tell them you were Egyptian to get that?
Because you're a little bit different.
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, I got a passport.
No, because that's a different.
We looked into that for something and like it's not an easy thing.
It's very difficult because the government is like, you have to get approved by the government to do something like that.
It's a historical site.
Because these Danish motherfuckers did a porno on top of the pyramid.
Did you hear about that?
No.
Some people like fucked on top of one of the pyramids.
And after that, they really started.
You just did your Google searches.
It's like you wanted one, you would be the first.
Just jumping off for the pyramids.
So many bricks.
People fucking thousands away.
He wants to know how many millions of due north.
Yeah, But okay, so so you got to get government approval, uh, certain songs you can perform.
Like they, you have to submit your set list.
Um, what songs it was either there somewhere in the Middle East, but like I couldn't do young God because like anything religious.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so like anything super vulgar you can't do, which is, you know, once again, it's like people in the business know there's a lot of artists who have tried to do it.
And like when I've talked to booking agents and whatever, it's like this artist submitted their 30 song set list and two songs got approved.
Can't do it.
Can't do it.
What song did you know the audience wanted to hear, but you couldn't play for that show?
None.
None.
Oh, everything that I knew they wanted, I could do.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How just, how big of a deal is cussing?
Like, you say vulgar, but at the pyramids, it's fine.
Pyramids is fine, but I did the first ever rap show in Kuwait and I was not allowed to cuss.
Fans had to remain seated the whole time.
I couldn't dance.
Not that I dance, but I do a little two-step.
There was none of that.
What did it look like?
So it was like...
So you have video?
Give us a video.
I've posted every show I've ever done, but it was cool.
Imagine sort of like the ballroom of a hotel.
It was kind of that there was a stage and there were seats and everyone had to remain seated.
And me just being like obnoxious at that time.
I was like, fuck.
Like, I'm like trying to rile them up.
I don't give a fuck.
Even though I did well with not cursing, but certain shit gets out of hand.
Type in, yeah.
Type in maybe Russ Kuwait.
Oh, yeah, this is it.
Yeah.
See, I'm still dancing.
I'm still hitting my fingers down.
I would have arrested you.
Yeah.
I would have arrested you.
So the craziest thing.
This is so horrible.
Here we go, right?
Look, everyone's sitting down.
And they had like, you know, officials from the government running through the middle telling people to sit down.
See, someone stood up.
Wow.
Crazy.
Now, the craziest thing that happened during this show is in the middle of my set, I turn around.
At this point, like my manager was DJing.
DJing, he used to just plug in an aux to the laptop and we just rocked out.
That's like how we did like massive shows.
Yeah.
And I turn around to him and I have to stop the show because there's like a rock and baby.
There's a royal family member who's like, my daughters want pictures.
In the middle of this set.
Crazy.
Like, and he's telling me, he's like, yo, this guy, like, he wants his daughters to come up on stage and take pictures.
Like, you got to take it.
I'm like, I'm in, I'm like, kind of busy.
Yeah.
And so I just didn't do it.
Whoa.
Which ended up being fine.
Like, after the show, I don't know if it's in this clip, but after the show, I talked to all of them backstage.
And it was, no, I guess it's not.
It's on my Instagram.
Wait, you talked to the daughters backstage?
No, no, no.
I talked to the diplomats and the officials.
Yeah, you pleading for your life at that point?
Or what is that like?
No, it was fine.
Royal Family Interruptions in Kyoto00:15:56
It was fine.
I just feel like back then, I'm just coasting on like, it can't happen to me.
It's all going to be fine.
I told them this shit.
Yeah, yeah.
When we were in Abu Dhabi and we were doing the, what is it called?
Like the little run-through before the show.
We were just doing sound check and shit.
And I was kind of like wowing a little bit during the sound check.
And the promoters were getting a little nervous.
Sure.
I can't imagine with yourself.
Did you have to cut anything out?
I ain't cut anything.
We presented the list of what he couldn't say.
And I violated that.
And I was like, yo, they're not going to arrest me.
I had the same thought.
You can't have to arrest me.
This is a fan of me.
But I remember them getting nervous.
And then basically the way that they positioned it was that they would go after the promoter, I think it was.
Yeah.
Like, you know, the promoter would be worried about they would be responsible as well.
It's also, yeah, you want to go back, right?
Especially when you know that the audience really have a dude.
They got a great sense of humor.
Obviously, don't talk about Muhammad, but like just talking about them.
Right?
Like, I posted a video.
I'm making fun of them for the first 10-15 minutes of this.
Like, wow, nuance it just about their culture.
They love it.
Jesus Christ.
We think that they don't want to make fun of themselves, but they don't want to laugh.
They do.
Don't talk about Muhammad.
Right.
Talk about everybody else.
And you never think that, but it makes the most sense when you pull back because it's like God is God.
We're not God.
We're just people.
So we can get made fun of.
You know what?
Traveling does.
And like, I just brought my dad on this trip that I just went on.
He doesn't come around a lot.
And it was so interesting to watch his perspective sort of open.
But to that point, it's like when you travel to all these different parts of the world, what you realize, everyone is a human.
Yeah.
Everyone is just a person.
I didn't see them as humans here, bro.
I agree.
Nah, dude.
You know what I mean?
Just white people.
Just white people.
No, but it's like, you know, you watch the news and you see shit.
You think that people are like.
Yeah.
Japanese people are this way.
Yeah, they're this way.
It's like, bro, everyone has the same, you know, internal drama.
Japanese people are odd.
We got to acknowledge that.
Have you been in Japan?
Yeah.
They're odd.
They're odd.
They're the most odd.
Just all of them.
Every sense.
What do you think?
Every sense, they're the most odd.
And I don't like how we can't acknowledge it.
That's why we go.
If they were normal, we wouldn't go.
I think Japan is fucking awesome.
I'll tell you why.
You say it's not awesome.
No, I think Japanese people are moving off of a ill honor code.
I fuck with it.
You go out there, there's no one at the grocery store.
It's just an honor code.
Leave the money in the back.
Ain't that odd?
Or good.
Nobody's eating.
No, no, no.
I'm saying.
No employees to make sure you're not stealing.
Because they just know you're not going to steal shit.
That's odd.
That's awesome.
That's fine.
No, it's awesome.
There could be awesome.
The food that they make is awesome.
Right.
It's odd that when I see two people on a table, I think odd has a negative connotation, but it is odd.
Listen, there's some things.
There's things that are good.
They say things that are bad.
My boy passed out in the street.
Shout out to Ben.
Ben passed out in the street.
He woke up in Japan.
He passed out in the street.
Passed out the street.
Blacked out, passed out in the street.
Woke up in the morning.
They had his socks and shoes next to him and his socks rolled up and stuffed into the thing.
Isn't that fucking incredible?
That's odd because they was jerking off to his feet.
That's the thing that you didn't realize.
Is that proven?
That's not true.
That's not true.
You're speculating.
See that?
Is that proven?
Where's the footage?
Can I see that?
Yo, travel, though.
Your India clip was crazy.
Can you talk to me about that whole experience?
Bro, India, I felt like Justin Bieber.
I was like, oh, this is like a little taste.
That was like a week click, dude.
Wow.
Can we show it?
Yeah, bro.
It's rock star shit.
Yeah, I don't know if it's.
Oh my God, bro.
First of all, India is like the fastest growing market on Spotify.
It's a massive country.
The people are so loving, so supportive.
I've not seen people go that hard for me.
Like, there's only so many groups of people who really match that level of intensity.
Man, I went to India the second I landed.
There's people at the airport, which like I'm not used to.
Like fans lying at NBA championships.
Yeah.
And like, but respectful, like maintaining six feet, not like, yo, yeah.
Oh, they don't do that with us.
No, like, but I don't, it was just like, whoa, like, y'all are clearly diehard fans, but it was like so respectful.
And the shows were fucking the level of passion of Indians in general is just nuts.
Bro, it was bananas.
Like the two shows I did, I did one in Mumbai and Delhi, and it was like, oh man, this is fucking nuts out here.
I think I saw the Mumbai clip, I think.
It's nuts, bro.
How many races try to claim you?
I feel like you could pass with just about I'm racially ambiguous on the internet.
Yeah.
No, that's facts, bro.
No, but I think like that.
Rachel was in Derek Jeter when I first heard Rocket Judo when I first saw it.
Isn't it funny?
Like, does anyone know what he is yesterday?
No.
And you shouldn't tell them.
You keep on lying about being Italian.
You got to cut that shit out.
Right.
What are you really keeping in the whole thing?
He's fucking Japanese.
That's what he is.
That's why I knew he was going to be able to do it.
No, you know what's so funny?
It's like that's what a lot of people thought and still think.
I was telling you off camera, like before the interview.
It doesn't even matter that I've told people like, never lived in Saudi.
Like, nah, I know someone who went to school with you in Saudi.
It's like, okay.
I've gotten DMs from like, yo, like, my friend went to, no, lie, real DM.
Yo, my friend went to school with you in Costa Rica when you were like 14.
Yeah, that's crazy.
I just went along with it.
I'm like, yeah, tell myself what school you're at.
I mean, you're not misspelled Santiago.
That's right.
But they're not going to know.
I'm just constantly throwing curveballs.
What?
Keep people on their tongue.
What race are you the most attractive?
What does that mean?
So, like, if you're a okay, if you're like, let's say, say again, Latino.
No, what I'm saying, no, no, no.
Not what race is the most attractive.
We know that.
We know Latinos are, obviously, yeah.
So, no, but I'm saying it's like, for example, Dove, right?
Dove is like an eight as an Italian.
Sure.
Seven as an Israeli.
Okay.
So what are you?
Frederick.
God damn.
Wait, you think it's the opposite?
That's crazy.
Okay, so what race, like if you're a bad person, dude.
If you're a fucking bad person, he does that to everybody.
He sucks too.
Anytime you call a dude good looking, both of them are like, fucking look.
Yeah, y'all hate.
Okay, that's cute.
Do you think you're like, Al, you think he's an Italian?
Smart, you're good looking.
He's a black 12.
He isn't happy to be 12.
He wouldn't be the least attractive to the black.
It's interesting to learn the conversion rate.
Yeah, what is the conversion?
Like, what is he as half black, half white?
That's a fine ass half black with the good hair.
That's a, he's up there, bro.
And the eyes, what are the eyes?
Two different colors.
Yeah, the two different colors.
Two different colors.
Wow.
Yeah.
Oh, one is.
He's got to give me something.
Stop staring.
My bad.
My bad.
Sorry.
I don't want to stare.
You said, if he's a bad person, you're a bad friend.
Shut up.
Shut up.
I know you're a bad person.
Not to shift the silly topic to like a real thing, but I do think this is an opportunity to actually talk about something real as that.
Super.
Sounds like you're about to make it gay as fuck.
No, When I first blew up, there was so much like, what is he?
And I do think that to ignore that is dismissive.
Like that played a big role in my success.
Oh, that everybody felt like they could.
Everybody felt like they could see themselves in me.
You know what I mean?
100%.
Yeah, because, and I've said it before in an interview.
I don't assume that they can't because they're ugly.
No, but I'm not sure.
Being white or racially ambiguous online makes it easier to reach the masses, right?
Makes it harder.
Makes it harder to reach hip-hop because hip-hop is black, right?
And so it's very clear I'm not black, but it makes it easier to reach the masses.
And to ignore that is dismissive.
And I know that, like, you know, when I first blew up, Saudi was like, the whole Middle East was like, oh, you're Middle Eastern.
So like, we super love you.
Yeah.
You know, and then like, Hispanic people, yeah.
Right.
And I'm like, it's over with.
He doesn't leave.
He'll be a lofty in two weeks in the Mediterranean.
Wait, do Italians really fuck with you?
Yeah, but you know what's so funny?
When I did a show in Italy, I'm doing a show and it's like a regular show.
It's fucking turnt.
And like halfway through the show, I was like, oh, fuck.
I'm Italian.
You gotta play this card right now.
You know what I mean?
Like, I was like, oh, shit.
I was wondering why I felt so much real.
I don't know.
It just felt like home in a different way.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, every, because it like dawned on me all of a sudden, like, whoa, everyone in the room is Italian.
This is crazy.
You know, because when you do a show in America, there's not this sense of patriotism where it's like, yo, like, everyone's American in here.
You know what I'm saying?
But like doing a show in Italy and I'm Italian, it took a second because I'm just running through the motions.
But then I was like, whoa, everyone in here is Italian.
So like six songs deep, I'm like, yo, if I tell you all that I'm Italian.
Did I mention?
I was like, we don't give a fuck.
Keep going.
No, I do get that.
Like when we did the show in Scotland, my mom's from Scotland.
And when we did the show there.
It feels a little bit different.
Yeah, it felt like I want to hang out with them for longer to be, I don't even know.
I don't even know.
I can reflect on that.
Light it up a little bit.
Yeah.
And it feels like they're excited that you come from the same place that they came from.
Right.
Right.
And the same culture kind of bleeds through you.
Of course.
There's that connection point that's.
I mean, you guys that do the show is an idiot, right?
Yeah.
I mean, anytime I go to India, I'm like, oh, yo, this is, I know we laugh because I don't know enough about India.
I don't speak Hindi well enough, but like my soul is like, yo, this is, I'm home right now.
I can feel it.
Talking to Cape Canaveral.
Yeah.
I'm like, yo, this is it.
I'm home.
No, it's incredible.
What country smells the best?
I'm going to go with Italy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those are clone people.
That was a follow-up question.
Upgrade a Scottish one.
What could follow from that?
I'm just saying, that's a follow-up question.
Who's the layup?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which Asian is the oddest?
No, which is the oddest, though.
Which is Asians are the oddest.
They just odd.
They're just odd.
They're just a little, they're not a little odd.
But see, like, I really think they're just like perfectionists at everything they do.
Odd is a negative person.
I can tell.
You said, yeah, but your soul said no, and you looked at me and said, yeah.
You go, yeah.
I'm going to give you a gem my mom gave me.
Yeah.
Is when somebody has a perspective that's like unfamiliar to you.
Yeah.
Like a beautiful response is, that's interesting.
It's very open-minded.
So it's like, they're not odd.
Yeah.
They're interesting.
It's like, but you know what you mean.
But interesting is positive.
You know what you meant, and you know what your mom meant.
But it's a different energy.
It's a different energy.
It's great.
But then you go there and you're like, these some odd ducks.
I can't see that.
They're interesting people.
They're particular, man.
But you could be interesting and odd.
They're odd ducks.
They are a little.
I was there.
I'm there with my wife.
We were there for like two weeks and I was like, wow, like you're more odd than I thought.
Did you ever consider that you're odd?
Talk to them today.
No, to them.
Was it them?
Like, that's what's so crazy.
They are looking at me like.
They're looking at us like, these people are fucking off.
Yeah.
They're like, they're crazy.
These motherfuckers are crazy.
What?
Yeah, you do some weird stuff.
I do plenty of weird shit.
No, just Americans in general are like, we stick out.
He also is a sore thumb.
He bites his toenails twice.
He bites your toenails.
I can't do it anymore because I'm older, but I did back in the day.
I gave up on that habit.
But you did it.
No, I was like, yeah, I used to do that.
I'm just saying, the Japanese, we appreciate them.
We love them.
They make great video games.
They make great technology.
They make incredible food.
The pancakes, the fluffy ones.
What's even going on there?
The way their integrity is incredible.
They have great integrity and they take care of you.
All that stuff is very.
Very clean.
But there's also some oddities that we can appreciate as people who enjoy misfits.
I like misfits, clearly.
So I find that the Japanese are misfits.
You guys are misfits.
Look at you guys.
Just calling your friend Ugly on a platform in front of millions of people.
Dude, Mark is just positive.
Listen.
Listen, the word odd is a negative connotation.
I don't want you to say that.
It does, right?
The way he uses it, the way I use it, it's great.
You said it with love.
He said it with a little bit of vitriol.
It's vitriol.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm talking about odd is like, it's a number thing.
You know who loves numbers.
I'm not going to guess.
Right.
That was the layup.
Was that the whole set of people?
That was the layup.
That was the layup right there.
That was it.
Okay.
But shout out to Japan.
We love you.
Appreciate you.
Have you been to Kyoto?
Yes.
Yeah, it's incredible.
That place sucked.
What?
Dude, it was too fucking Japanese about it.
But you know what?
You know what's so interesting?
It's like, I think for musicians, for me, I like a place can be boring or whatever.
Not the Kyoto was, but I look at everywhere, like, how fun would it be to make music there?
So it's different.
Like, I was sitting on my balcony looking at a koi pond making beats.
Yeah.
So I'm like, this is fucking.
It's inspirational.
Did you say it like a, what's called a Ryukan or something like that?
No, I said it the Four Seasons in Kyoto.
See, that's the thing.
We had to go there for a massage.
To the Four Seasons.
Yeah, we had to go.
What'd you think?
It's stunning.
But we tried to be Japanese about it.
We're like, we're going to stay in a Ryukan or whatever.
I think I'm from Python.
I tried to buy the Dipteak hand wash and all that type of shit.
And they do sell it.
That's the thing about the Four Seasons.
They're fucking.
Well, so here's the thing.
I wanted to buy the Dipteak hand wash from them.
No, no, no.
Once I got, I went to Toronto.
I'm like, God, I got to get this hand wash that I smelled.
The Four Seasons in Kyoto.
I'm in the Dipty Shop and I'm like, yo, like, here's the picture.
And they're like, oh, that's exclusive to the Four Seasons.
I'm like, y'all got embargoes on hand wash?
That's crazy.
Like, I can't fucking buy the soap.
Do you know you could buy the mattress?
Oh, well, I have the pillows.
I didn't know you could buy the mattress.
That's how nice the four seasons is.
Like, this is when people, these rich motherfuckers, they're smart.
Yeah.
And, like, they monetize the linens.
They're good at it.
They might as well.
We got a massage at the Ritz once.
We didn't even stay there, but we're like, what are these sheets?
And then we went and bought those sheets from the spa.
Not the hotel.
Not where they sleep.
The way you're just laid on it.
You were like.
Perfect.
I need this in my home.
Perfect.
But yeah, the Kyoto thing.
My thing with the Kyoto was like, I don't know, it just felt like a version of Japan for tourists.
You know, Kyoto used to be the capital.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, I felt the opposite.
I felt Tokyo was like, oh, this is tourists.
Kyoto felt like, I'm really amongst the actual people.
Yeah, it felt a little bit more.
And you are also, all jokes aside, you're going for different reasons.
You're going for inspiration.
You're going to visit.
And not that inspiration was going to be.
No, no, honestly, I'm going for both.
Like, I'm very much so on the fucking, like, let me get the guide.
I want cultural immersion.
Yeah.
I want to go.
That's why I went to Kyoto.
And I was like, I want to feel what Japanese people felt at this time in history where the city is kind of locked in.
Like, you still see the, what are they called?
Geishas?
Geisha.
Girls walking down the street and shit like that.
And I guess it's kind of cool, but there were certain things that I saw in Japan that I was like, wow, this is completely unique to Japan.
You will see no other form of this anywhere else.
And that, I mean, that cultural, that just cultural shock that you experience when you're there is like something I've never experienced anywhere else.
I love it.
It was crazy.
And because it was odd or interesting, it was exciting to me.
Yeah.
But it was totally unique and different.
And in order to get that, you can basically have nobody live there.
Like they don't let anybody move there.
Nobody can become a citizen.
Buying Rugs for Cultural Immersion00:04:55
It is.
Is that right?
Yeah, bro.
I mean, good for them.
Even if you're born there, you're not Japanese.
How does that work?
So what are you?
Outsider, bro.
You're coaching or you're whatever.
They keep it locked in.
And then they have that kind of cultural, what is the word?
I'm looking at homogeny.
And it was spectacular.
The food was amazing.
But they were so unbelievably different.
Yeah.
Where I haven't experienced that level of difference.
Like you go to the Middle East.
Like, yeah, there's cultural differences, but like there's just kind of like an awareness of how we all act.
And they're so educated abroad that they know how Americans are.
So they know they're aware.
Bro, you go to Japan.
Where have you been in the Middle East?
Dubai?
Just Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
Oh, yeah.
You got it.
Like, to me, I love Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
But it's like it's the bank.
Well, Egypt is Africa.
I can say that.
You got to go to like fucking.
But I did Egypt and I did Jerusalem.
Like, to me, traveling, because I'm like, at my core, was such a judgmental person.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
So judgmental.
Because I grew up, like, my dad's from Jersey.
My mom's from Long Island.
Oh, yeah.
Loud Italians.
Shit talking Italian.
Like, just grew up like judging.
That's just par for the course.
Yeah.
And traveling has been, it's given me the capacity to deploy empathy for shit I don't get.
Like, for example.
Just like in general, just like, oh, they do things different.
That's cool.
But that's why we go to see the different things.
It's exactly why, like, I just got back from Marrakesh.
Oh, amazing.
Incredible.
Was in Saudi.
And it's just like, just everywhere I go, I'm just trying to do what they do.
Let's talk about Marrakesh.
I love Marrakesh.
This is the second time.
The shook or whatever?
First time I was at the Royal Mansoor.
Second time, this time I was at the Amman.
Okay.
Wow.
Imran is.
Yeah.
Amman is nuts.
Amman is the best.
Yeah.
It's incredible.
But did you go into the shouk?
Did you?
Of course.
Yeah.
We did the whole thing.
And then we rode ATVs in the desert.
How many rugs did you buy, be honest?
Did they get you?
Bro, so like, here's like, here's the funny thing.
If y'all watching Marrakesh, I don't understand what's going on, right?
When I stayed at the Royal Mansoor in 2019, you set up the guy because I'm like, look, I want to just go around to the authentic places.
So they take you into like the big square, the Medina, and they take you to the rug shop and the furniture shop.
And it was awesome.
First time I was there, I bought a shit ton of rugs, bought furniture.
Cool.
Come back this time.
Same thing.
I'm like, give me a guy.
It's a different hotel.
We go into the Medina.
We do the big square.
He's like, I know the best rug shop.
Takes me to the same rug shop.
We walk in.
I'm like, I feel like I've been here before.
Dude comes out.
He's like, my friend.
And of course, I bought a rug.
I was not trying to buy a rug, but I buy a rug.
My picture's on the wall.
And then he's like, afterwards, he's like, I'll take you to the best furniture store.
We go to the same furniture store.
I'm like, wait a second.
All right.
Hold on.
Now, Moroccan's a good one.
What sort of like, are we all in just cahoots?
Yes.
Yes.
And you know what's tough for me is like, I guess when you travel, you want to, at least for me, I want to feel like I'm getting the authentic experience.
I don't want to do the touristy shit.
Getting scammed is the authentic experience.
Well, I'll say this.
It's what I was telling my dad.
It's like, you know what?
Is that because the guides are telling you, look, 80% of the shit in the square is from Bangladesh, India, and China.
Yep.
Right.
I'll take you to the best one.
They take you to the same one that four years ago they took you to.
I'm like, look, maybe this is fake.
Maybe that's real.
But you know what?
I bought it in Marrakesh.
Okay, it's real.
What you're really paying for?
You know what I mean?
He beats the music industry and then gets hustled by it.
Okay.
It's two shit.
We all went for the France.
Well, because it's like you're putting your trust in them.
And if you don't believe that this dude is telling you the truth, they're the label.
We need nine grand up front.
We'll send you the rug.
So here's the reality.
They're all made in Bangladesh.
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.
But I think you go.
You bought it in Morocco.
You bought it in Morocco.
We saw in Marrakesh.
But I also, the way I look at it is like, I'm not here for where the rug is made.
I'm here for the dance.
The guy's telling me 800.
Yes.
And I'm like, oh, I can't do it.
Let's do four.
I'm going to give him 800 no matter what.
I was going to give him nine.
Exactly.
I know.
Like, I want him to make the money, but I understand that he likes his dance.
And this dance has existed for thousands of years.
Right.
Morocco, old culture.
Right.
And you get to take part in this dance.
No, it's to me, that's the authentic experience.
Where the rug is.
Going to hear the guy.
Can I get you a tea?
Like him setting you up for this rope of dope.
You're like, oh, this is amazing.
Like, this culture has thrived like this.
I know you're finessing me.
And I love every minute of it.
Bro, remember when we went in the store, the guy was like breaking up little pieces of crystal and telling us this is going to give you a boner.
It's salt.
And then boom, all day.
Santorini Water and Divine Signs00:02:08
All day.
Okay, where else?
Where else?
What was one of the dopest spots that you went to that was completely unexpected?
Lake Lucerne.
In Switzerland.
Yes.
Okay.
What's it called?
Hotel Witsnau on Lake.
It looks like a Bob Ross painting.
That's the best way to describe it.
You're sitting there.
It's on this lake.
It's the trees that Bob Ross drew.
It's the fucking lake with the perfect little ripples.
And it's just like, it's so serene.
There's nothing to do but go to the spot and relax and look at your surroundings.
In the lake, you jump in the lake, you get out, your skin.
I don't know if you've ever touched the dolphin, but you feel like a dolphin.
It's just so smooth.
It's like the water is like holy and blessed.
I don't even, I don't get it.
But it's, it was just so serene and peaceful.
It was one of those moments where you're like, this is what eyes were made for.
Wow.
Was to look at this.
Wow.
So lake, but Lake Lucerne, the Amalfi Coast.
Amalfi's crazy.
It's insane.
But yeah, man, Lake Lucerne was just, I don't know.
Amalfi is one of those places that's popular.
And then you go and you're just like, I don't give a fuck.
I get it.
I get it.
You know what else I get?
Is Santorini.
Oh, Santorini.
Oh, dude.
Because Santorini is one of those places where it's like...
Nowhere else in the world looks like that.
You go to a lot of like cities in Europe and I love all these cities.
Paris, London, Amsterdam, Berlin, Brussels.
It's like...
There's a familiar.
It all sort of kind of, you know, jumbles together at a certain point.
You go to Santa Rina, you're like, where the fuck am I?
It looks like the post.
It looks like I'm inside the postcard.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And I remember thinking about Greek mythology.
This part was actually in Athens, but the Temple of Poseidon, you're looking over the water similar to Santorini.
And you're like, oh, I completely understand thinking there had to be a God for just this.
Right.
There is a God for just water because look at what I'm looking at.
There's no other way around.
No, it's kind of being in Malfi.
And I think we were talking about that because you were in Santorini.
And it's like, like, I get why people from certain places don't believe in God because you don't have this.
Right.
Like, you're looking at dog shit.
Feeling Rich Through Experiences00:07:58
You know what I mean?
Like, if you're an atheist in Cleveland, I get it.
You know what I mean?
But you can't be an atheist in a malfi because you're looking at.
An atheist in Cleveland is crazy.
Yeah, because I'm not judging you because you're looking at a smokestack, right?
But in a malfi, you're like, no, only God could create something like this.
Yeah.
In Santorini.
Same thing.
You know what this reminds me of?
Like, I dreamed of having conversations like these.
Yeah.
I remember like I went to T.I.'s manager's house with Boogis like 2014, 15.
And it was me, Boogis, Jason Jeter.
Oh, Jason.
It was me, Boogis, Jason Jeter, and Killer Mike.
And we were sitting in Jason's like cigar room.
And like, I had no fans, no money.
And we're sitting there.
And Killer Mike and Jason are just talking about like, yo, Croatia.
And I remember just sitting there like, dude, I don't fucking know.
And I remember going home and telling my mom, like, whoa, like, it was crazy.
We were talking about Croatia.
And me and her talked about, because her love, one of her loves is travel too.
And I remember me and her talking about like, can you imagine what that would be like to be able to sit around and talk about have you have you sent her around?
Did you sense her?
She comes with every single time.
Hell yeah.
Like she didn't come to Saudi this time or Marrakesh.
She's already been.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, yeah, bro.
Cause to me, I'm just like, I dreamed of this shit.
Yeah.
You know, and the fact that I've gone down the rabbit hole before of I want to see my bank balance have more in it.
But then I did the second step of that question, which is why.
And when you get to the why, it gets confronting because it's like.
What's the why?
The why was, well, so that I have more money.
And then it's like, but why?
Oh, I guess no reason.
You know what I mean?
So then that's when I started just being like, bro, you know what?
Like, I'm making the money to, and this is a quote my mom gave me.
If you have the ability to change somebody's reality, do it.
And I just use money to change my reality and people I love's reality.
So I use money to just do fucking epic travel shit with my family and everyone I fuck with.
Amen.
That's it.
Because it's like, yeah, could I, bro, like, I could show you the fucking tax document, whatever.
I've made, and this is three years ago, so it's more than that, but three, four years ago, I had grossed 50 mil.
Gross, this is before you have to pay out people.
Grossed, gross 50 mil.
So I've made, like, I had made that much, spent fucking 49.
You know what I'm saying?
You know what I mean?
Because it's like, what else am I doing with it?
Yeah.
Like, I feel like, I feel like the culture of like stack is so, it's just, you have no connection with the present.
You're saving for what?
Like, a lot of people don't reverse engineer the lifestyle they want.
I always tell people, look, instead of just being like, I want to be rich, that's too vague and it's not specific.
What do you want?
Yep.
Specifically, what house do you want?
What car do you want?
What kind of life do you want to live?
How much does all that cost?
Now reverse engineer it.
Now, all of a sudden, you don't need a billion.
You need two mil or you need 500 grand or whatever.
So like for me, I do that all the time with myself where I'm like, do I want more money?
Yeah, because I'm ambitious and I like seeing the numbers go up on a screen because it's like a video game.
But realistically, it's like, me and my business marriage are talking about all the time.
It's like the big purchases are out of the way.
Everyone got a spot.
Everyone has a house.
Everyone has a car.
Everyone has a spot.
So it's like, now I'm just on some like, bro, I'm just trying to go places and do ill shit.
Like we were just in Marrakesh just because.
Like my dad fell off a camel.
It's awesome.
That's a hot thing.
You know what I'm saying?
Like that's, it was on the way down.
But it's just like doing shit like that, like for no other reason than being able to log it in your memory bank.
Like that's, to me, that's the only reason why I'm doing this.
A wealth of experiences.
That's it, bro.
Cause all this shit is just like, it's one big facade that people are just, I feel like me included was chasing such like approval and validation and like travel is for you.
Travel, travel.
Stacking money is for them.
Right, right.
Because who is it impressing?
Right.
Well, you know, you know who it's impressing?
It's impressing the perception of what I think I should be.
Exactly.
Like I should, what?
I've made 50 mil.
I should have 48.
It's like, you could have had 48, but guess what you couldn't have had?
It's the trip to there, the trip to there.
And I think about that shit all the time.
It's like someone, you know, I said it on a song.
It's like, some like, you may be richer, but have you ever left the country?
You know what I'm saying?
It's like, so how rich are you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I feel so rich in experiences.
There's that behavior.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, my mom has been, no lie, around the world, two, three times, around the world.
Like, everywhere, documented.
Like, she's seen everywhere.
And it's like, what else, dog?
I'm going to probably bastardize it, but there's that parable about the guy fishing.
And then somebody comes up to him and he's like, oh, I know exactly, bro.
Please tell a story for the cameras.
You can find my favorite treat better than me.
You can, because the guy sees another guy fishing.
And he's just like, so what do you do?
I'm an investment bank or whatever the fuck he is.
And the guy's like, oh, I just sit here and fish.
And that's, and he's like, what?
That's how you make your entire living?
He's like, yeah.
What's wrong with that?
And the guy's like, no, man, you need to like fish.
You need to like sell fish, open a market, then maybe open an online e-commerce thing.
Then you can try to make money.
They can hire employees.
Then you can, he goes through step after step after step.
And then the guy's like, okay, then what happens?
And he goes, then you can just sit there and fish.
And the guy's like, that's what I want right now.
And that's it.
Bro, that's it.
It's like, because I've heard that, and it's so true.
It's like, bro, I sit at home and I make music.
And money may be mailbox money.
I get paid every Friday since I was fucking 18.
So it's like, this is it.
All right, guys, we're going to take a break real quick because we got to talk about your health.
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Now let's get back to the show.
So outside of music and traveling, what excites you right now?
Like these guys have gotten into playing paddle.
Oh my God, these guys are paddleball.
What's like pickleball?
Pickleball.
Not pickleball.
No, these two.
Like, what are you going to bring you in place of paddle?
Paddleball and Mental Health Codes00:14:40
I went on a walk yesterday.
It's 6 a.m. I see a bunch of people playing pickleball, old people.
I'm like, get on the basketball court.
No, but I get it.
But no, what excites me honestly is like I've had to shift my trophy.
And I talk about this on the album.
I'm talking about it in my second book.
It's like the pursuit for me now is just progress.
That's what it has to be.
Progress is perpetual.
It's professional progress.
How do you define progress?
Everything.
Well, it's shifts.
You know, we can run down the categories.
Physically, I want to be stronger.
I want to be healthier.
Mentally, I want to be more disciplined.
Musically, I want to make something that I love even more than what I did yesterday.
You know, and it's to me, it's things that are in my control that don't rely on the approval of anyone else but myself.
And I got into a bad, bad space.
And not to say that I'm out of it, but I got into a bad space where like the metric for me was if other people approved what I was doing.
Yeah.
And that's a bad place to be because you live and die by the booze and the cheers, you know?
And yeah, for me, like what excites me now, bro, is just honestly being present in progress, like waking up at eight and going to the gym by nine.
And by 10, I'm in the studio.
And by 11, I've made a song.
And by 12, I'm doing a call about a book I'm putting out.
And by one, I'm on the couch with my girl and my two dogs.
And my mom's swimming in my pool in the backyard.
And like, that's it.
Yeah.
Like that to me, that's it.
Yeah.
I think that's, there's this guy, Naval.
I forget his name.
Harari.
No, no, no.
You were telling me about it.
He's a India dude, actually, but he's like an investment guy.
Yeah.
He's made billions of dollars, but he had these three like mantras that distills, I think, all of this.
And I've been thinking about it a lot recently.
And he was like, the three endogenous indicators of happiness.
Everything else can, you know, like marginally raise it or lower it.
But the three biggest indicators, and the words he uses are precise, and I really like them.
He said, a calm mind.
Wow.
Not sharper, not quicker, not doing more shit, but calm.
Calm.
Calm mind.
Yeah.
Fit body, house full of love.
He's like, if you get those three things, genuinely everything else.
I love that.
I love that.
Everything else is kind of like little, little parameters that can kind of tweak it.
But those three things across any culture, any society, any individual is going to be the biggest indicator.
I really hope that everyone watching this fucking hears that because that to me, that's the epitome of what people should be chasing.
And that's what that's what Santiago is about.
That's what the second book is about because all those things you said have nothing to do with anyone else.
It has everything to do with things that we're in control of.
And it's just, yeah, bro, that's it.
That's it.
Everything else falls into place.
You know, it really does.
That's what I've noticed.
It's like if I'm good mentally, physically, spiritually, whatever, bro.
Whatever else.
Therapy's worked on anybody faster than it's worked on you.
It's actually really remarkable.
I think because I needed it and I wanted it so bad.
Yeah.
And I committed to it because I really, for years, and I would like trickle it in songs like, I should probably get a therapist.
It's like, five years later, still no therapist.
What are you doing?
But yeah, I really, I really did want help.
And it's so much deeper than just like the connotation of therapy.
You know, it's really like a spiritual mentor, you know, because the guy I talk to, he's not even a licensed therapist.
He's, he's just a fucking guru.
He's a wise dude.
Yeah.
And it's just, I don't know, man, haven't like, not to get cliche, but being men, it's tough to feel, one, comfortable being vulnerable with things you're struggling with, two, to even like have somebody that you could talk to because to your parents, that might feel like, you know, they're going to feel guilty because somehow they'll make it about them.
To your friends, they're like, I don't fucking know to like, just get over it.
And I got my own shit going on.
Yeah.
Like, you're doing better than me.
How can I help?
Yeah, like if you tried getting over it.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
What did you say?
And another podcast you said the measure of a man is how far he can.
So that's something that my uh that my mentor told me.
He said, you know, society measures a man by how much can you carry, how far can you carry it, and how alone can you carry it.
And it's so real.
And like, I think just subconsciously, that's kind of how men move throughout society.
Yeah.
Is, you know, not to get fake deep, but when, you know, people ask me, oh, how you doing?
It's like, can't complain.
But when you really read into that, it's like, can't complain.
Yeah.
I can't.
I'm in a position where I can't.
You can't.
Yeah.
Like, you can't because we have not allowed ourselves the space to even give ourselves empathy because we don't feel like it's a safe space with other men to be like, you know what?
I'm going through something right now.
It's fucking up.
We also don't want to put that on the people we love, too.
Yeah, well, because we're, because we're men and it's we got to shoulder it and fucking you know, or rush the dirt off.
You don't want your girl to worry.
You don't want your mom to worry.
You don't want all the people that rely on you to worry.
You want them to know that they're going to be good and they're good when you're good.
Right.
So you're like, all right, I got to hold this.
And then you meet somebody you could talk to about it and you're like, oh, it feels great to talk to you about it.
Right.
Because these people are all going to be safe, but I get this off my chest.
Right.
And there's no judgment from their end.
And what I learned through talking with him is when you resist, resisting insecurities leads to self-implosion.
And that to me was so true.
It's like, you know, whether it was interviews or meetings or just in general, it's like me resisting the feeling of like, you know what, I'm nervous.
Like I was nervous coming on here.
Right.
And if I would have tried to like overcompensate that, that would have led to maybe really like self-destructive like outbursts, nah, you know, or just in general, not on camera.
And it's like when you resist what you're actually feeling, which is what men do.
It's what we've been trained to do because you push down, push down, it's going to come out sideways at some point at a time where you don't want it to come out.
What's that quote?
Everything you want is through the door you wish not to enter the most or something.
Right.
There's this quote about like everything you desire is through the thing that you desire.
You're the other side of what you fear the most.
It's on the other side of what you fear the most.
Yeah.
And it is true.
And also like you get into a place of comfort, which is like, is privilege, but it can also be a prison.
And that like, you don't have to do an interview.
You don't have to do anything you don't want anymore.
And now you're in a position where you can avoid those things you fear, but what is on the other side of those things you fear is exactly what you want.
I know.
And you know what?
For me, this is like a thing I've like set as a goal is like the year of just doing hard shit because like you said, I don't have to talk to anyone ever again.
And you're good.
And I'm fine.
But it's like, guess what?
But I want more and I'm ambitious and I want to express myself in different mediums than just music.
So guess what that means?
You got to do the podcast.
You should do the podcast.
You fuck with Schultz.
You like his brand.
It's a good place for you to express yourself and be honest.
But yeah, it's confronting because now you got to like be yourself and people are watching and putting yourself out there for judgment.
You can't control it as much.
You can't control it.
And so it's scary.
And like you said, because I'm good, I could just be like, what?
I'm at the house.
Like I was just in Saudi, the Americas.
I could have just gone home.
You know, like I miss my dogs.
I miss my pet.
But it's like, it's like, nah, bro, I have to do the hard shit.
And then there's a joy that comes from that.
Yeah.
There's also like a fulfillment of purpose that comes from it.
Because you're like, oh, shit.
I'm scared of people.
It's weird.
Like, because that is inside of fear is strength.
So that is the thing.
Like, when it comes to like money or stacking or whatever these things are, I think that like, like, I have no aspiration to be a billionaire.
Like, that the sound of it is like, okay, if it's cool, I don't give a fuck.
I just don't care.
Like, it doesn't mean anything to me.
But I do have an aspiration of having enough money where every decision I make is because I want to make it.
Right.
Not because I have to.
Right now, we're privileged enough.
Like, we're the luckiest people on the fucking face of the universe.
We get to do shit that is so much fun for a living.
Like, this is a joke.
It's even a job.
Right.
It's crazy.
Look what we're doing.
It's a joke.
This is insane.
It's absurd.
We're in a random building in New York.
We set up cameras to make it seem like we're doing something.
There's fake bricks here.
These are not even real.
So like, no, it's insane.
Yeah.
But, but see, like, that's really what it's about.
Exactly.
But one of the things is like, so we're very fortunate that like through, you know, stand-up and all these different things, through music for you, you've been able to do a thing that you truly love to make a living.
There is another level which you might be at.
I don't want to count your pockets where it's like, you actually don't have to do anything anymore.
Your family's good.
You're good.
And everything you do is because you want to do it.
Now, what you just described to me, I didn't even foresee, which is when you don't have to do anything, you will have greater hesitation with the things that you fear to do.
Yes, that's I didn't even think about that.
Well, because for a long time, I've been at where you're talking about where it's like, I don't have to do any of this.
And you're good.
Because I've had the mailbox.
I've been getting paid every Friday.
You're going to be fine.
So it's like, I know I've been financially secure for a long time.
Got it.
And so now, like you just said, I've never heard it like that.
Now it makes you really analyze the things you don't want to do because you're like, wait a second.
Because before you got to do it to do this, you got to do that uncomfortable interview because you're like, I want to push this album.
I want people to see my work.
I put a lot of effort into this.
So I'm going to put myself in this vulnerable situation because there is upside and I have to risk that downside for that.
So you can't hide from fear if you're not rich.
Right.
And that makes me personally think of, think of the mega artists that are, they do the mysterious thing.
And I'm wondering.
Are you mysterious?
Are you just a little bit brave?
Like the Kendricks or the Travises.
You never see them.
They're just, they're just good.
They're just like, they're fine.
Maybe they also.
Or maybe they're afraid.
But maybe they're afraid.
But it's like, yeah, I know for me, it's just kind of like, I don't have to do these things, but I want to do them because at this point, I'm just being driven by the fact that I'm scared to do them.
You know what I mean?
But that's because your goal is personal growth.
If your goal is money, then you're like, no, I'm not going to do this box.
I'm going to make more music.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's fucking.
How do you gauge how much you show the world?
Because you're very vulnerable in your music, but then like, you know, social media, just like surface levels.
Like, even right now, right?
It's like, I have nothing to push.
Yeah.
We can make up things.
Like, I have a song coming out in two days.
I don't give a fuck if we, we don't have to talk about any of that.
I got a hair care.
I got all, I don't give a shit.
This is clever right here.
No, That's not.
No, but no, but truthfully.
Lock that up.
Lock that up.
I don't even have anything.
Anyway, underneath this South Chicago is out, by the way.
No, but truthfully, it's like, I just like, I genuinely wanted to come on here as an exercise and like do the hard shit.
It has nothing to do with any of that because I've learned that all of these extraterrestrial things don't sell your music.
I'll never forget, and this is no shot at Tiger.
I love Tiger.
I remember 10, 12 years ago, I don't know when the fuck it was, Kim Kardashian posted like a Tiger mixtape.
I remember we're on the come up.
So we're studying everything.
And we're like, Dan, Kim posting the mixtape didn't even like really matter.
It didn't like move the needle.
And, you know, certain things you just remember on your come up.
And so forever, we're just like, yeah, it just doesn't matter.
Like, like Kanye right now could post me on his Instagram, like, go listen to Santiago.
It's not going to like, for 24 hours, it'll be like, whoa.
Nah, but then you posted it with a picture next to that.
It doesn't.
Milk factory guy walking around with.
It's just like, no, but it's like, I'm telling you, I'm telling you.
The needle's being moved.
It doesn't, every, the internet's so fast, it doesn't matter.
The only shit that matters is like real, actual human, consistent connection.
And so for me, yeah, it's like, I don't have to do any of this.
I don't care about promoting anything because I'm not entitled to your platform to promote my shit.
So I like, I know I have my platform.
My fans know what's going on.
I got a community.
Y'all know what's up.
Cool.
I want to come on here because I fuck with you.
I want to talk to y'all.
And like I said, it's an exercise.
And like, bro, do the hard shit.
This is like training my brain to do a cold plunge.
So see what I'm saying?
Like, this is the cold plunge.
Selfish follow-up.
Yeah.
You talked about all I want is growth.
And even in your music, all you want is growth.
I was listening to a podcast where he talks, this guy works with like high-level like athletes, investors, whatever.
And he talks about the people who excel, the Tiger Woods types.
Yeah.
They don't perform for ego reasons.
They don't do what they do for ego reasons.
A lot of us do.
And that's why like embarrassment, like bombing on stage as a comedian is so fucking embarrassing.
Because you're perfect.
Having an album flop, maybe.
He talks about basketball players a lot of times.
Like they don't want to miss free throws.
It's just embarrassment.
And that really hinders your growth if you're doing it for your ego.
Because the ego is like, well, I don't want to get embarrassed.
Right.
The people who are the best of the best are in it just for mastery.
And that's all they care about.
How do you, based on what I've researched from you, listened to it, Santiago, you were ego initially.
Yeah.
And now it's mastery.
How do you uncouple yours?
Because I'm in the process of trying to learn.
Well, it's not that black.
It's still a little bit of both.
Yeah.
But I'm in the process of shifting the trophy from ego to self-mastery.
That's part of the work that I've been doing.
And that's what Santiago is about, which is why the album ends on me singing It Was You All Along.
I love that.
It's because it's like everything you've been chasing is you.
Yeah.
You've been chasing yourself.
You're chasing your tail this whole time.
And self-mastery is the, in my opinion, it's the only thing worth going after because it's a game we can all play.
It's a trophy we can all win.
And it doesn't matter who else is playing.
We can all win it.
It's a weird thing, though.
Sometimes like having money allows you to reflect long enough to realize what you truly wanted the whole time.
Right.
People who don't have that, they're trying to.
Shifting from Ego to Self-Mastery00:07:20
They think that money's the answer.
Because in the moment, it is the answer to their rent.
It's like food taking care of their family.
Well, it's like it's the three basic like shelter, food, water.
Exactly.
It's like, I can't think past that till those are covered.
Exactly.
But it's like the Jim Carrey commencement speech he gave.
He's like, something, it's not this verbatim, but it's like, I wish everyone was rich and famous so they could figure out what they really want.
Exactly.
He's right, though.
It's the truth.
It's like everyone, and I don't blame people because I get it.
Because like you said, it's like, we don't have shelter, food, or water.
Right.
But it's like, I wish everyone could get their money and get their shit straight.
Then you'd really see what you actually want.
It's important to position it in that way because I know that there's probably people who watch and listen to hear, they hear people say these things and they're just like, man, shut the fuck up.
You got everything.
Right.
And it seems almost like condescending when it's said, but there is a lot of game in there.
There's so much, bro.
And I like how Jim said it, where it's just like, I can't wait for you to have all that money so that you start tapping away at the end of the day.
And what's so funny is we talk about Jim Carrey as like a manifestation example where he wrote a $20 million check to himself when he was broke.
Right.
And then he got to pay $20 million for, I think, Ace Ventura 2.
But nobody leaves out the part where he goes, you know, he still wasn't happy after that.
That's a really interesting thing.
Well, because it's like, once it's to his point, it's like you realize what you actually want.
Yeah, what makes you happy?
Is it like, is it creating things you're proud of or is it the people clapping?
Well, the reality, for me, right, to what you were saying with Santiago, it's like I got, you know, plaques and money and all this shit.
And there was a hole still.
And the hole was the fact that I didn't approve of myself.
So it didn't matter that the plaques were approval.
There were signs of validation.
All these symbols of success.
Sold out shows, plaques, money.
They're just symbols of success.
Real success, it's an inside job.
It's, do you approve of yourself?
And I didn't.
And the reason why is because at a very, very young age, like most boys, your metric of success is your dad's approval.
And for me, my dad's standard was perfection, an unmeetable goal.
And so therefore, I was never quite the standard.
And as you grow up, my dad's voice became my own voice.
And so his metric became my metric, which ended up being, I'm not good enough for myself no matter what I do because it's not perfect.
And so.
And it's a great motivator.
It's a great motivator.
Oh, because you know why?
Because guess what?
Yeah, you went platinum.
You didn't go to platinum.
And so you'll keep succeeding.
And from the outside looking in, it's like, damn, Russ, your work ethic's crazy.
It's like, if only you knew what was driving the car.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, this is not a good energy driving the car.
What do you tell your manager?
This is my shadow.
This is my shame self behind the driver's seat.
I'm just like the little boy in the passenger seat and the shame is driving.
Like, you fucking loser.
So I got to get us all the way to double because you couldn't.
Right.
So what do you do?
What do you do to make that shift?
Like, are there active steps you're taking, writing affirmations?
Yeah, the active steps are, first of all, like, and I think this goes overlooked.
Step one is awareness.
Just even being aware that you're doing what you're doing.
I just wasn't even aware that that's what I was doing, that that was my process.
So like step one is awareness.
Step two is starting to, yes, to modify the process.
It's to sort of, it's to interfere the negative self-talk.
Right.
It's to catch it.
So when that shame and that shadow pops up and is like, not good enough, you got to tell yourself and tell that version of yourself, yo, chill.
Like, I hear you.
I know you just want the best, but we're not doing it like that anymore.
But the first step is awareness.
And a lot of people, me included, just not even aware that I was like moving like that.
Yeah.
I thought it was all positive.
I'm looking at my life.
I'm like, plaques, money.
I'm doing pretty good.
You know, everything I'm doing must be right.
Especially when no one else around you is at the level you're at.
You feel like you must be doing something.
That's also like the average person.
You know what I mean?
They all think you're doing something right.
Right.
And so they're not going to tell you.
They don't want to help you.
Well, they want to help you, but they don't know how because it's like it's working.
It's working.
So I don't know, bro.
It's like, shit.
Keep doing what you're doing.
And keep in mind, 16.
You know how many times like you daft somebody up as a successful person and they just say, keep doing what you're doing.
It's like, nah.
Because it's not sustainable.
I'm not angry.
I'm still angry.
No, it's not sustainable because at some point you burn out.
You know what I mean?
And I talk about it in the book and I talk about it with my mentor, but it's like dark motivation versus light motivation.
And I was just driven by dark motivation, which is like fear-based.
Like I need to prove to everyone that I'm really who I am and who I think I am.
And it's all this like, it's very combative and it's making enemies out of people and entities that don't even know their enemies.
Yes.
It's not even real.
We've said it on here before and it's like, I think we're just doing it wrong here.
This American capitalist chasing after it.
You go to these older societies in Europe where it's like, they get it.
Yeah.
They get it.
They had the calm mind, the love in the home, the fit body.
They got it already.
There's less ambition for sure.
There is less ambition.
Happiness.
And an American sacrifice.
How are you happy?
Yeah, like broke boys.
Look at your life.
Brokey.
It's like, I lived in Spain for a year.
And I had, yeah, I was living on like 10 euros a day.
Five of those euros were spent to get into a club and I got a beer with the entrance fee.
Beautiful.
So the other five were like putting together the meal.
We were cooking fucking the Spanish tortilla.
Like it was just great.
We were living broke together.
We were playing basketball and it was awesome.
And I remember having this moment there where I was like, man, I could do this forever.
And I had to stop myself and be like, hold on.
No, you got to go achieve things.
You got to go do things.
You got to go back and finish college.
And I'm glad that I did.
But to what you were saying was, I was at such peace with my life and with my friends and doing the things I wanted to do.
It was something that I hadn't experienced in the same level back home.
And you were fishing already.
That's what I'm saying.
I was fishing, right?
But I'm glad that I was able to go and chase success here.
Because I think sometimes the sacrifice that you make when you have a society or a culture that's built around that, which sometimes they could scrutinize ambition.
And like the people that aren't cool just fishing, they want to go fish in the deep sea.
The people that just fishing start going, why?
Well, you think you're better than us?
Yeah, you know, and sometimes you don't think you're better than them.
Yeah.
You just really want to see what fishing in the deep sea is about.
You just want to challenge yourself.
For you.
Yeah, for you.
And if you're doing it for you, I do think that that is valuable.
Absolutely.
I think everything should be for you.
That's the whole key.
It's like figuring out what it is.
But that's the being in pursuit of progress.
It's like, I've already caught the fish in this spot.
Can I catch a fish in the ocean?
Incentivizing Fans to Buy Albums00:02:01
That's why for me, it's like, you know, people, sometimes people get confused when they're like, well, why do you still want a Grammy?
Well, because I don't have one.
And that's progress.
I don't want it so that y'all clap for me.
I just want it to see progress.
That's it.
But you see that as a form of validation?
No, It's not validation.
It's more so it's a confirmation that progress has been had in a certain category.
It's less about, see, now the intention is everything.
If the intention behind it is, you know what?
I want a Grammy because if I get a Grammy, y'all will fuck with me more.
Now, now there's a negative intention around it.
You're going to get the Grammy and still be miserable because you don't improve it yourself.
If I can poke a hole, it is still progress that is decided.
It's other people deciding you've made progress.
It's progress that's completely externally out of your control.
Right.
Externally validated specifically.
Yes.
And you know what's so funny about that is when Santiago came out and Billboard like took away sales and I was so fucking pissed.
But why'd they do that?
Complete horseshit.
Because you're not allowed to.
This is Billboard's rules, not even a lie.
You can look it up on the internet.
Billboard says you are not allowed to incentivize fans to buy albums.
You know what that is?
What do you mean?
Marketing.
Incentivize fans to buy albums is marketing.
It's literally in the rules.
Luminate is the company that verifies the sales for Billboard.
They're owned by the same company.
So I'm like, okay, that's insane because y'all allowing fake streams.
Yeah.
And merch bundles.
How is a merch bundle not incentivizing?
What was your incentive?
My incentive was if you buy a fucking album, you maybe get invited to a desert listening, whatever it is.
That's crazy.
That's incredible marketing.
Yeah.
Why am I not allowed to market?
A bundle is a tangible thing that everybody is.
A bundle is incentivizing fans to buy an album.
So they took away sales, right?
Real sales while allowing fake sales.
And I remember hitting my mentor.
I'm like, bro, this is such bullshit.
They're taking away my progress.
Luminate Sales Verification Issues00:03:20
And he said, no, they're taking away the external knowing of your progress, but they can never take away your internal knowing of your progress.
And I thought that was really profound.
And to your point, with the Grammys, he's like, yeah, that is out of my control, which is why I can't place too much, I can't personalize it too much.
But there is something valuable about having a mountain to climb.
Yes.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, same person.
Yeah, so it's like, it's a good mountain to climb, but depersonalize it.
So just to clarify, I won't take it personally when this doesn't get nominated for a Grammy or whatever.
Is it an absolutely okay mountain to have?
You just want to see progress?
Sure.
But don't personalize it to the point that, well, if I don't get it, then I'm a failure.
But so just to clarify, the album itself represents the progress.
Correct.
Not the sales, not whether it's the fact that you made it.
The fact that I made it.
That's the thing that I always tell people.
It's like certain songs, it's like, bro, this song was already a success before it went out.
Yeah.
Because I made what I wanted to make.
Yeah.
I already won.
But when the thing that you want to make receives an amazing response, it's a double win.
Euphoric feeling.
Oh, yeah, because you feel like your artistic integrity is intact and the people are appreciating you for your most authentic self.
That's the fucking.
No, it's incredible.
It's incredible.
What song on this album was your biggest win without just by putting it out?
I love you, boy.
Yeah, I remember you saying that was really hard to write.
Yeah, I mean, that was the one where, you know, the whole album was me doing sessions with my mentor and him giving me exercises.
Because, you know, I won't even lie, the first session we did, I felt bad.
Because I was like, man, the whole time you're talking, and I told him this, I said, whole time you're talking, I'm thinking of songs.
I can write about this shit.
And I felt bad.
I felt like I was like almost using the situation.
And he was like, no, Allow the creative side of you to come along for the journey.
You know, and I learned that the creative part of me is sort of the part of me that tries to make sense of all the other parts of me.
So he would give me these exercises.
And he would never say write a song.
He would just journal.
He said, you can journal in the form of a journal, a poem, a song, lyrics, whatever you want.
Of course, naturally, I'm always going to revert to the medium that is most familiar with.
So so many times we would do a session on Zoom and I would do all the sessions in the studio right next to the mic because it just feels safe for me.
And I'd get off the session and go right onto the mic.
And that was I Love You Boy.
I love You Boy was like the exercise was, I want you to journal and give your inner child the empathy that you wish you got when you were a kid.
And that was I Love You Boy.
And to me, it's the hardest song I had to write because I had to be, I had to be honest about feeling embarrassed about certain moments of my career, like in an interview where I drank too much and I said ridiculous shit or, you know, just whatever.
And it was like, damn, man, like just having to be honest, like, you know what?
I think it gets way more vulnerable than that.
You fucked up?
Oh, no, it's way more, but it's like great self-reflection.
Just having to confront things that I've never had to confront and be honest with like what you want.
Journaling for Inner Child Empathy00:04:19
Yeah.
What you did want before embarrassed of that.
What I want and what happened.
And yeah, the shame.
Yeah.
The shame that's attached to wanting something to happen so bad and wanting to be this perfect version of yourself.
And you didn't hit the mark all the time.
And having to be honest with yourself, like, yeah, you know what?
You did fuck up.
But you don't need to beat yourself to fuck up.
Like give yourself perpetual punishment.
And that's what I've done to myself.
I do that.
Well, you would if you're a perfectionist if that was put on you.
Yeah.
If it's not perfect.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so now you see the connection, which is why I put out the song Perfectionist because it's like that perpetual punishment comes from being a perfectionist because it's like, you know what?
You fucked up.
And that was then.
This is now.
And I'm going to let you know that you really fucked this up for us.
How would you think this?
Oh, sorry.
Being this vulnerable and putting that much substance in your music.
I was just curious.
How did you feel about when most deaths said Drake is surface level target music?
Because I feel like this is the thing.
That's one of those things people have been asking of Drake for quite a while.
Like, yo, we want to know more about you.
I think Drake, one, I think Drake has that in his music.
Yeah.
Two, I think the world is entitled.
I think the world is entitled.
Naturally, I think social media has made people very entitled because we see your Instagram.
Sometimes we wake up with you and we go to sleep with you.
And it gives us this, this parasocial, the world.
What is that term where it's like...
It's a parasocial relationship.
Yeah, it's just this weird, like, where we're best friends, even though we don't actually fucking know you.
And we expect all these, you know, entrances into your life.
And it's like, yo, we don't know you.
You don't owe us anything that you don't want to give us.
And social media has ruined that.
Social media has made people feel like we are entitled to know the ins and outs of your thought process on any and everything that has to do with you.
And if you don't give it to us, we feel like you're bullshitting, fake, you're this.
And it's like, bro, these people are artists and they give you what they want to give you.
And if you don't fuck with it, next song.
You know what I'm saying?
But it's like, I feel like, one, Drake has that depth.
How would you break down hip-hop?
What is hip-hop?
Because most death was saying that's not hip-hop.
I would think that's hip-hop.
I think, I mean, the way I got introduced to hip-hop was like, it's intelligent movement.
That's what it is.
So I understand the perspective of like you want there to be some sort of intelligence behind the lyrics and not just sort of filler and fluff.
But the reality is like shit changes.
And disclaimer, I'm not in any position to speak on what is and what isn't hip-hop because I'm white, straight up.
But Trinity's still a hip-hop artist.
Yeah, but the reality is, well, I'm ushered in.
I'm a guest.
You know what I mean?
He gave me like a plus one.
I was the plus one.
You got a pass.
Yeah.
You got not the not that pass.
Yeah.
I got the plus one pass.
At any given moment, all the plus ones, get out.
No, but yeah, it's like, I think hip-hop went from counterculture and underground to it's the most popular shit in the world.
So naturally, it went from people doing hip-hop to express and rebel to make money.
And Jay-Z talks about in his breakfast club where, you know, there was a shift that happened where hip-hop became a get-rich quick scheme and rap became a get-rich quick scheme.
And when that happened, of course, you're going to lose the art because people aren't doing it for the art anymore.
They're doing it for the bag.
So it's like, once you realize that, once again, it's just, it's just letting go of the resistance.
It's like, look, if I can just accept the fact that this shit got so big, which was the goal, that it's now become a plausible financial scheme.
Okay, well, now I have to accept that there's going to be some people who are not doing it for the art.
They're doing it for the bag.
And what a great place that, you know, we've gotten hip-hop and rap to a place where it's so lucrative that people don't even have to be about it for the art.
They're there for the money.
They're there for the money and there's still a bag in it.
And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that is the that it just comes with the dinner.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like.
Wrestling with the Music Industry00:15:16
And that's not just hip-hop.
That's anything that gets popular.
You're oftentimes shackled to the bag.
And then once you find something that's lucrative and it provides a living for yourself, a lot of people don't want to move away from that.
There's comfort from that.
Of course.
It's also on the people, bro.
This whole fucking notion, it's so irritating.
It's like, can we stop acting like there's this big fucking ploy to like only push a certain kind of music?
The truth is more boring.
The truth is more.
It's always more boring.
Here's what the truth is.
The truth is in general, society is attracted to negativity more than positivity.
Yeah.
Period.
Yeah.
So guess what?
Negative music glorifying negative behaviors and lifestyles will always feel a little sexier because it's a little more dangerous than peace, love, and prosperity.
You know what I'm saying?
That's a danger.
That's just what it is.
That's just what it is.
And I mean...
If you're in the forest and you hear some branches break or some leaves rustle, you look around.
Now, the real shit that no one wants to talk about, that if I talk about it, I'll probably get canceled.
That would be just the end of us.
But whatever.
It's really what I think people should be like looking into is white people's fascination with black trauma.
That is, to me, talk to us is very bizarre because black people are also fascinated with black drama.
That makes more sense because it lands and it resonates.
White people are fascinated with black trauma because it's exciting to them because it's over there.
Okay.
But they can get close enough to experience it.
But guess what?
When it gets a little too real, they go home.
So let me ask you.
And so they can participate from a distance.
From the same distance.
Let me ask you this, though.
Mob movies.
My pushback.
Come on.
We can't.
No, no, you're actually in a good place to be.
I think the mob movie rap correlation is such a reach.
I wouldn't make it mob movie.
I'll tell you why.
Because mob movies, yes, they're based off of something real, but it's also very clear that majority of it is fiction.
There's not that many of them, right?
Rap, the whole attractiveness of rap is that it's real.
It's not that it's fiction.
They're not playing characters.
That's the appeal, right?
Especially, like, I can speak on this at least, is because I was a white boy in the suburbs.
Yeah.
So I saw firsthand what people like me were attracted to.
It was that it felt real.
It was dangerous.
It was dangerous.
It was over there.
And whoa, like he's really like, you see his face tats and like, yo, he just said he like slid on this op.
Yeah.
Whoa, that's crazy.
And you get close enough where you're like, yo, you see they're fighting over there.
And then it gets a little too close to the railing.
You're like, yo, we got to get out of here.
And that's it.
That's it.
That's the reality.
And like to me, that is the perplexity of rap.
The pushback I would give is that I think that, like you said, the umbrella is danger.
We're drawn to danger.
Like Jackass, the MTV show, is danger, right?
These people are going to go prank people.
Hold on, let me get this.
Go ahead.
They're going to go prank people and they're going to make people feel really uncomfortable and something that I would never do.
I can't believe this is so embarrassing, but they're going to put themselves in that position to embarrass them.
Eric Andre, for sure.
Sure.
Great stunts and you're like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing.
I would feel so uncomfortable if I was that person in that environment, but I'm drawn to it.
I can't look away.
There is a fascination with the dangerous.
In general, even in the way that we're attracted to anime or even kung fu movies, and I feel like white and black people are attracted to this Asian thing that was like dubbed over.
And we're still like, these are some badass motherfuckers.
Maybe they're going out and killing all these people.
I love dangerous.
Because this is a conversation me and my boy have had.
Okay.
So I think that there is an attraction to the dangerous.
Yes.
And we exalt those figures that are willing to do these dangerous things.
UFC fighters, boxers, like the things that we fear.
A bare knuckle street fighter, Kimbo Slice, you made himself, but we also made him a celebrity simply off of the fact that he was knuckling up in a backyard in Miami.
So I think that we are drawn to these figures that are willing to do the things that we don't.
And rappers specifically are rapping about these things that we're terrified of, but we are really intrigued by.
I agree.
I agree 100%.
Everything you said, I agree.
And you know what?
This is what I think.
I think rappers who are rapping about a certain traumatic experience and black lifestyle that's particular and specific to them, it's appealing to other people who have felt those same traumas and have been through that, right?
To white people, it's we're just attracted to the danger.
Danger, yeah.
Why?
It's because 21 Savage is John Wick to white boys.
Yeah.
That's the reality.
Rappers are the new action heroes.
Yeah.
To white people.
Yeah.
But to black America, rappers are, you're speaking our trauma and it lands for us and it resonates, right?
But to white boys, which is like, the reality is the main case.
We're interpreting it correctly, though.
The black people aren't.
No, no, no, no.
Because Vapper's a lion.
So we're treating you like the liar, which is John Wick.
If they lying, if they lying, then we stop fucking with them.
How many of these rappers are lying and we still fuck with them?
So it would still be the difference between an action movie and a movie that's a drama.
I hear what you're saying.
The main consumer, when I say consumer, I mean the people putting money into it.
The main consumer, the main ticket buyer of rap is a white boy.
Right?
Those people are there not because the content lands.
They're saying the N-word.
They're there because they're getting to watch John Wick up close.
Meanwhile, John Wick is on stage like, this is real trauma.
This is like, this is not a lie.
No, now, if he is.
Okay, well, so now when we go down that road, right?
Here's my issue with it.
Let's go down that road.
So you're lying about being John Wick.
Okay.
If you're lying about being John Wick, promoting a negative lifestyle for commercial gains.
Speak on it.
To me, that's fucked up.
Now, if this is really your lifestyle and you're just expressing your trauma, I respect it.
But if you're lying, it's a little fucked up.
And so here's the real question to me.
The real question is, are you publicly admitting to crimes you commit, which makes you dumb?
Or are you lying about a negative lifestyle, which makes you a little evil?
Which one is it?
I think it's a little bit of both.
Maybe a little, which guess what?
Usually starts somewhere and they're like, hey, this is my truth.
And then they get a little money.
They distance themselves from it, but now they can still speak on experiences that they lived.
That they had.
Yeah, which I think, like I said, when it's real to you, I think by all means, I think the policing of rappers, actual real life trauma, is fucked.
Let them talk about what they went through, right?
I think if you're making this shit up because you know what's popular is to talk about sliding on ops and popping perks, I think you're evil.
But that isn't, isn't that what you also just said of any time something becomes the culture, there's going to be people who just try to profit off of it and that's okay.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not fucked up.
Yeah.
Yes, they're doing that, but that's fucked up.
Now, what if they said, hey, Russ, you probably embellish things about your life and your music.
I don't, in fact.
Nothing.
Nothing.
There's no lying about fucking bitches that you didn't exactly do?
No.
God damn it.
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I'll tell you, the only thing I ever lied about on a rap song was on Kill Them All.
And I called my business manager and he talked me out of it was on Kill Them All when I mentioned like something something like run over these bloggers in my Lambo and I swear to God, I'll call my business manager right now.
I said, bro, like, I don't have a Lambo.
I have a McLaren.
Like, I think I should buy a Lambo.
I swear to God, I swear on my mom's life, on everyone's life.
That was the only time I ever lied to my raps.
Wow.
And in fact, if we listen, maybe I changed the line, but yeah, that was the only time I ever lied because I'm not making music to persuade y'all.
I'm making music for me.
So if I'm not really doing the drugs or if I'm not really having the trauma, I'm not pushing it.
Okay, you say it's a negative thing, but well, we have movies.
Like movies are fiction.
No, there's a difference.
This is my life.
This is fiction.
I love this debate.
I love this debate because it doesn't land.
I'll tell you why.
There's no leg to stand on.
Movies are under the notion that it's fiction.
Like you said, when you watch Scarface, you're going into the theater like, I'm about to watch a story.
The appeal to rap is that it's real.
In fact, to the point that rappers make it a point to say that they're real.
So you can't, that whole notion of like, nah.
That's the thing.
It's like you're selling art.
So no, no, no.
I have a stage name.
You're absorbing.
You're absorbing accountability.
You're absorbing accountability.
I don't think so.
I think you are because the reality is that's fine, but then make it clear that it's the WWE.
But don't go out of your way to.
WWE doesn't make it clear, it's WWE.
Don't never rapper.
They received a lot of criticism.
Watch.
Watch.
But it doesn't matter.
No one says what they're doing is bad.
No, no, no.
WWE makes it clear to the people who, like, at a certain age, you know, Santa Claus isn't real.
WWE has never said publicly, these are stages.
Of course.
If you have eyeballs, you know.
But what I'm talking about.
But what are the differences?
And I feel the same way when you see a rap.
If you have eyeballs, you know this shit isn't real.
No, but that's exactly how I feel about rap.
I feel like realistically, right?
A lot of the appeal of rap.
This is what I'm saying, because when you keep in mind that the main consumer is a white boy who thinks it's real, you have to understand that the appeal is that it is real.
So like, even though they're not saying it, they're not not saying it.
You see what I'm saying?
It's like the whole appeal of like this slide-on-op music is like, yo, I think they really are.
And a lot of them really are.
But wrestling's at.
Like, people thought stolen.
No, but rappers.
Rap is not wrestling.
The appeal of rap was that it was not wrestling.
The appeal of rap was that it was real.
Reality.
Everyone is under the notion that it's real.
I understand the point.
And I know because we're all grown and that it's not real.
But I'm saying the appeal.
A lot of people still believe it's real.
And also there are rappers.
It's still real to me.
Damn it.
Have you seen that to me?
I think 70% of people at a wrestling show think that shit is real.
No, it's not 70%, but here's what it is.
I dare any of y'all to come out and say one of these rappers is lying about the shit they're rapping about.
Because that rapper will die on a hill defending the shit they're making.
Most of us know.
They say they're telling us the persona.
Yo, it's like wrestling in that we know at a certain age, you know it's fake, but we all just kind of, and I can't speak for black people, but I think the rest of us kind of buy into, look, we know most of this is bullshit, but let's all pretend it's real because it's just a fun thing like wrestling.
It's just a fun storyline we're all buying into.
And I can't speak for the black consumer, but I think most of us at a certain age know most of these rappers ain't doing nothing.
They got fucking Roth IRAs or whatever, investment accounts.
And we're all buying into this game.
We have aged out of the audience that is influenced the most by rap.
We've aged out.
So you're talking, right?
We're talking amongst each other as grown men who understand that it's not Santa who's bringing the presence.
The audience that's most influenced by rap thinks it's real.
And the issue that I have is that if it is not real, don't push it because it's negative.
Now, if what you're pushing is positive and it's not real, push it by all means.
That's Santa Claus.
Santa Claus isn't real, but it's positive.
Y'all shit isn't real, but it's negative.
And you're not even living it.
Nikki spoke on Future saying when I talked to Future, he told me he wasn't even doing the drugs that he talks about in the songs.
I think Futures music is amazing.
I'm grown enough to have the discernment to say, man, this shit is stick to the models is like my favorite shit, right?
Russ, what's your mic?
Sorry.
Stick to the models by future is my favorite shit, right?
But I also know that the reason why I wanted to try lean when I was 19 was future.
What's future?
And I'm not going to blame him.
I did think the drug shit was real.
I need a slide on Opswa.
The drug should be.
But tell you why the drug shit can't be real.
Because it's not the extent of what he's doing.
You can't do that many drugs.
Okay.
But not to advocate.
Which is why when Juice World said, I started doing these drugs because of you, we have seen it live in the flesh.
Juice World said, I did drugs because of you.
Juice World died of a drug overdose by following somebody who does not even do the drugs that they said they did.
Valid point.
What the fuck are we talking about?
Everyone wants to tiptoe around the fucking because certain people are Teflon and you can't talk on certain things.
So why is there a defensiveness around this, Al?
What do you think that is?
Because people are trying to protect free speech, even if this free speech is negative.
It's free speech.
It is.
I think it's a cultural.
That's what it is.
It's like, oh, we should be able to say what we say.
You can, but then also face the consequences.
I think it's cultural success.
And I think it's like, I think it's, I think it's cultural.
I think it's we should be able to say what we can say, but then that's fine.
But you cannot absolve yourself of the accountability when you have to face the consequence of your actions.
And when the chickens come home to roost, when Juice World, who did drugs because of you, dies, that is a real moment of reflectiveness that needs to happen within the culture.
Real quick, real quick, real quick, no, no, question, question.
That's the reality.
Am I tripping?
Accountability vs Cultural Success00:15:18
No, you're not, but I don't think anyone like when Alex Jones or when Tucker Carlson or any of these dudes that were supposed to be taking on face value, right, as like news sources and they were telling the truth, when they back up and they go, I'm just doing this for entertainment, they get ridiculed.
How dare you manipulate all these people?
Right, right.
But what I'm saying is you could make the same argument that Alex Jones, Tucker Cross, or whatever.
No, but I see where you're going.
You won me over with Juice World, but you can't go news because news is news.
It is, I'm presenting this as news for you to consume as facts.
But you have to understand operating.
To a 17-year-old or rapper is giving them news on the culture.
But it's an it's the same thing.
It's like candy news.
It's like sports.
It's real, but like rappers are the fucking.
I'm trying to kind of argue two things.
Like no one's trying to absolve rappers like influence.
Like a parent should raise their kids.
For sure.
Their kids can look up to somebody and be influenced by, but at the end of the day, it's up to the parents to raise your kids.
I agree.
So it's like this artist should be able to be an artist.
And we got to can't act like this shit isn't going on.
Yes, there are some rappers that are fronting, But there are rappers that really are about that life.
Like, we see it happening for sure.
Chicago.
We see.
So it's like you can't put all the onus on the first disclaimer.
I'm not talking about the ones who are actually talking.
Like I said, I'm not talking about the ones who are actually talking to people.
No, but even the ones that aren't.
No, but see, that's where you have to start raising an eyebrow of like, this is a little bit evil.
Because if you are purposely choosing to promote a negatively influential lifestyle that you yourself are not, even this is fucked up.
I'm not talking about the ones who are like yo yeah, not out of it, like I really lived this.
I did X, Y and Z. I'm using my music as a journal to talk about it.
I like, let them express what they express.
The ones who are not doing it, but they're doing it because it makes money and then they have blood on their hands.
I'm gonna further reinforce the stereotypes of the black community for my personal gain and to.
Therefore, it's a crazy intro and to, but that that's essentially what the criticism is.
It's like if you are living these things, that's incredibly unfortunate and you were born into a situation you probably couldn't avoid and you should be able to speak on your experience.
But if you did not live them at all, you are further reinforcing the stereotypes of the black community just so you personally can get money, while those people yes, that's the definition of selling.
I think that's a, that's a backdoor okay, but that is but two, what we're all talking about, because what i've heard from a lot of people sitting here is well, but it's WWE, okay.
So what we're saying.
What I hear is that majority of rappers have sold their soul, but it's okay because it's art.
No, I will say also to his point, it's not as negative reinforcement.
It sets up a negative reward system where you think to yourself, if I want to make it, I gotta be real guys, not even fake it, I gotta be real, otherwise if I get my card called bro, this is phony, I just I might have to live that life.
I think it's a little hypocritical to just call out that, because this happens in society everywhere.
There are people that are selling cancer to you.
There's people that like tobacco industry.
I wouldn't say it's hypocritical, I would just say I would just say it's hyperphone.
But there's a lot that don't make people like are killing people.
But that that's like that.
That's like that tweet where it's like, if you say you don't like oranges, someone's like what?
So like pineapples, just get off the like.
It's like multiple things we're talking about.
We're talking about Mcdonald's received so much criticism, bro.
There's been so many documentaries.
Supersize me as a documentary like.
There's constantly.
No, but we're talking criticism.
We're talking about music and we're talking about artists that are putting out bad music and it's up to the people at home who consume that music, how they live their life listening to it.
If you're raised right and you know we can all listen to a future song and not be influenced by it yeah, you said.
Hey, that's because we're grown now.
Yeah, but if your parents were a little bit closer to you they wouldn't have let you have access to that.
You might have wanted to try.
No, let's pump the brakes, right?
We were all 19 once, right?
Yeah, at some point you're outside of your parents supervision.
So at 19, when i'm like first dabbling into music, i'm drinking, i'm smoking weed, future's going crazy.
Dropping Tony Montana, i'm like dog.
This is crazy.
And especially in Atlanta, it was a different time, you know.
I mean, it was sitting next to two people that have never done drugs, didn't have sex before marriage.
Yeah, but see, but everyone, not everybody influenced by what they.
I agree, but to to your point, not everyone is influenced by what they're so, but some people are.
So you can't just write up no no, hold real quick.
What i'm saying is you can't just say well, these two people weren't influenced, so it's not at all on the artist.
Hold on, even though one second, one point, even though someone like Juice World literally told Future himself, I started doing lean because of you.
One point, let's say there's.
Let's absolve that.
Let's say that is absolute.
Yes, there's some influence.
Let's say that there's zero influence, right?
Let's say it doesn't impact a single person.
Like nobody does drugs because of it.
Nothing, right?
Everything's the same.
Society doesn't change at all.
You could still go, you are profiting off of a trauma that is not yours, that you are also reinforcing a negative stereotype, even if it doesn't turn into anything.
That's true too.
You still are profiting off of truth.
Do you know what I'm saying?
That's kind of where I was coming from at first, which is if it's not your real life.
You could argue that's the culture vulture.
I'm just saying.
I don't know.
I agree.
I agree.
It's an icky way to make money, but there's a lot of people that make money.
I don't think that's what I'm saying.
But see, this is where you're going to be making.
This is where you're missing the mark.
Nobody ever says somebody who works for Philip Morris didn't sell his soul.
You sell cigarettes.
You made it a point to sell cigarettes to kids.
You sold your fucking soul.
Nobody, if you call that cigarette company, is going to be like, bruh, what about drug dealers?
No, motherfucker, it's you.
You sold your soul.
So I just don't like that what about ism of, well, what about these other?
We're not calling them out.
Of course we call them out.
We call them all the fucking time.
If you're McDonald's and you decided we don't get it.
Everybody gets called out.
You sold your fucking soul.
Ray Croc sold his fucking soul.
Yes.
Y'all sold your soul.
We call them all out.
I will agree.
It's an icky way to make money.
But at the same time, I think you have the liberty of being an artist where it's like, hey, you get to make whatever type of art you want to make.
If it's not positive art, then don't consume it.
Or just admit you lying.
No, no, no.
Just admit you're playing a character.
I think to like close it out, I think make what you want to make, but also don't absolve yourself of accountability when it comes down to like, yo, if you're talking about something that's negative and pushing something that's negative that you didn't actually do or live, but you're doing it because that makes money, you sold your soul.
Yeah.
Simple as that.
We can agree.
And disown it.
And just own it.
We can agree.
But like this whole notion that like, nah, chill, people should be able to talk about what they're talking about.
Oh, yeah, you can.
But guess what?
You're also not exempt from is criticism for selling your soul.
The Juice World thing completely flipped me.
I only thought about violence.
That is the reason why.
That's not my opinion.
That's not my opinion.
That is documented.
He told him that.
And Nikki is in interviews saying, I think it was the Joe Budden saying that Future told her that he doesn't do the drugs that he talks about.
So it's like that to me, like I said, I have a whole future playlist because I'm grown and I can like, you know, use the sermon, but it's still, it's like, oh, when you see somebody like Juice World who their introduction to it was because you glorified it, that, I mean, that's got to feel crazy.
But then it's also, hey, where is your parents from?
No, bro.
Because people around you.
No, because then we're acting like, no, then we're acting like it's like you can't put it.
No, because then it's only Future's fault.
Because then we're acting like none of us were 19 before, where even if you had good parents, you just didn't want to be 19 and wild out because that shit sounded cool.
There are 19-year-olds that didn't want to wild.
No, but then the ones who did.
No, no, no.
But minority.
You argue the foundation is set by the parents.
Listen, minority and majority is irrelevant.
The fact that there are 19-year-olds who chose to wile out because they heard he was wilding out, even though he wasn't wilding out, cannot just be ignored for the sake of an argument.
That still has to be like, yo, that's kind of fucked up.
Yeah.
We're not saying that's the whole blame.
We're not saying that that's, oh, that's what's wrong with the world, but there needs to be accountability.
It can't just be like, what if Michael?
Some people died.
Big deal.
It can't just be that because that's the alternative.
The alternative is like, so what?
So somebody died because he followed what he said.
Big deal.
Where was his parents?
It can't be that.
You could also argue it's worse from an artist than it is from a Philip Morris because at least I know those guys are just trying to make money.
Art is supposed to be art.
The art that hurts people, that you're just saying, no, I'm just trying to make money and calling it art.
And that's kind of like, as an artist, fuck you a little bit.
Yeah, but the colours are good.
And I was on your side 20 minutes ago.
But the guys at Philip Morris were spending money trying to convince people that this isn't bad for you.
Dude, they're bad too.
They're bad too.
But you could argue.
But to defend the artist and be like, dude, that's art.
I'm telling you, as an artist, if your artist, if your art is killing people and it's not even real to you, I could argue that's even scummier.
And I, I, you can hear the victory all I have for these cigarette companies.
These are monsters.
You could argue.
To say you can't argue that is wild.
You can't argue that.
That's in the guise of art.
I'm having people killed is worse than, hey, here's a product that I'm selling as a product and a consumer good that's killing people.
Because I know you're a greedy fuck.
I know you.
I clock you as a greedy cocksucker trying to drive up the shareport.
That's also what corporations are.
I just think we're coddling humans to be like, oh, well, you don't have the wherewithal to know that you shouldn't do the thing that you're talking about.
No, we're not talking.
We're just saying there is also accountability.
I think we are underestimating the societal pressures to just be amongst and just be 18 and be 19.
Why can you be 18 and 19 and watch John Wick and not want to go out shooting everybody?
No, see, why do you have that where it's not all but this correlation?
John Wick is in a documentary.
It's so distinctive.
I know it doesn't.
You have the wherewithal to do it.
Come on, bro.
You're aware of the difference between that to me exactly.
Hold on.
Hold on, hold on.
Let me talk.
Because I hate that analogy.
I always have.
Because it's acting as if it's like gaslighting to me.
It's trying to make it seem like Future is John Wick.
No, We got into the business.
I think Future is John Wick.
Because you're grown.
Guess who is the majority of the future lyric that made me want to do the bad thing?
No, hold on.
This is when I was younger.
This is important.
No, this is something that I'm talking about.
I didn't DMX, though.
Bro, but Keanu Reeves exists.
Hold on, hold on.
Keanu Reeves exists, bro.
No, bro.
No, this shit, like, to just influence by DMX as a teenager.
To act like, come on, dog.
To act like rappers are literally made-up action heroes would then insult the integrity of rap.
Yeah.
So, because guess what?
What should be hold on?
So which one is it?
Is future in 21 Savage?
Are they gangstelicious?
Are they John Wick or are they who they say they are?
Which one?
What's gangstalicious?
From Boondocks, which was a dude who was playing and portraying the role of a gangster rapper, but it got defrauded throughout the episode.
There's a lot of that.
I agree, but what I'm saying is that you can't blame the consumer for not seeing through the image that they've been presented and saying, well, y'all are just dumb and absolving accountability of the person who's perpetrating the fraud.
That to me is crazy gaslighting.
I think you can't blame the artist.
Yes, you can't.
That's chapter one.
You're putting out this.
No, dog.
Chapter one is to be like, hey, I'm not going to be influenced by the message.
That's almost like this.
That's almost like this.
Back to the Morocco story.
That's me selling you a fake rug and blaming you for buying the fake.
No.
Why am I selling the fake rug?
I'm actually not telling anybody to go out and do drugs.
He's just saying what he does.
Do you know what a corporate is?
He's going to go tell you how to do it.
Yo, guys, everybody go out and do it.
People are what they do, not what they say.
But he's saying what his experience is.
He's not advocating for you to be.
People are white people.
Yes, bro.
Do you know how cosine works?
Kids move off of what you do, not what you say.
There's a reason influencers get paid.
So it's like your life.
But you should get this fit teeth.
Bro, it's not that black and white and stuff.
They're walking around in it.
But yeah.
Look, put it like this.
I don't need to promote tequila on this podcast with my words.
If you just see me port it, it promotes it.
True.
So to act like future is not telling people or whatever.
It's like, come on, bro.
Can I ask a question?
Here's a question.
Just, and you guys answer it.
If Future said, hey, I just want to let you guys know this is a character that I play.
He's never going to say that.
No, I'm saying hypothetical.
Two year old.
Oh, oh, oh.
You're giving your answer.
Yeah.
So if Future can say, this is a character I play, I just want to let you know my character's future.
He does all this gangster shit, does all these drugs.
That's not who I am.
I went to Cornell.
I studied business in there and studied music.
And I'm an amazing musician.
And I just choose to play this character.
Here's the music.
Do you think that his music would be more consumed or more popular if he was honest and said that?
Or if he was like, no, I am that character.
This is who I am.
You'll never see me break that character and I do all those things.
What would make his music more successful?
Is a magician so more attractive once you know how they do the tricks?
No, he sucks once you know.
No kidding.
So exactly.
They're never going to admit how they do it.
If that's the case, then he is profiting off of the illusion, whether the kids do it or not.
Of course.
There is more profit coming from the illusion.
I'm not saying 100% of the blame is on the artist.
I'm not.
I'm just saying that the fact that he can make more money doing it.
This notion that there's no accountability for the person who's responsible for perpetuating the illusion is just gaslighting.
It's like, it's y'all's fault for believing it.
No, Start at chapter one.
Why are you perpetuating something you're not doing?
Also, even if they think you're fake, I still want to do it.
It's not all of his responsibility because he's not absolved of all of that.
That's it.
It's just what we're basically arguing.
Beautiful happy meeting.
What's the percentages?
What we're doing is, and right now it feels like there's a 50 is a 49.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
But I think as, you know, on social media, it's so extreme.
It's like, it's all his fault or it's none of his fault.
The reality is it's like, look, both parties play a role.
Everything's going to play a role.
Everybody's going to have a little percentage.
We just got to figure out what it is.
But like even suggesting that there is a percentage, I don't think is a bad thing.
But I'm sure if I'm a label, I'm like, hey, don't start this.
This is how we make our money.
If I'm an artist, I'm like, yo, don't start this.
This is how we make our money.
I'm getting flamed.
I'm going to get flamed.
Shared Responsibility in Writing00:07:10
No, no, no.
I'm getting all the flaming.
Yo, but think about your kids.
But think about it.
Why are we allowing white people to speak on black culture?
Not even that.
Top comment.
Oh, that's top comment.
That's top comment.
No, you got to think about to make your life interesting.
You got to fuck all these bitches.
You don't even want to do that.
You're talking to me.
Yeah, think about all the shit you got to do.
You got to buy Lamborghinis.
You got to have threesomes.
That's crazy.
You got to go to America.
You don't want to do none of that shit, but to compete with these liars.
To compete with these liars.
You got to spend all this goddamn money, bro.
I'm really.
You're the middle of it.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
Yo, I got a peek.
Can we pause this for one second?
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Let's get back to it.
All right, and we back.
Quick little pee break.
Completely separate conversation.
Rick Rubin.
I feel like Rick Rubin is having like another wave, actually.
Yeah.
Well, that book he put out is a classic.
Exactly.
The book is great.
I think.
Oh, I got to check this.
I think, yeah, the creative act is a classic.
I just always find it so important for people with such a strong set of beliefs and visions and ideas to put out a book, let alone an audio book.
Like you can press play and just hear Rick Rubin.
He could die tomorrow.
And you can just press play and hear him talking about his belief system.
Like, that's, to me, is so underrated.
Yeah, the reason why he came up, I thought that was your guru person that you were speaking to.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
But I mean, I listen to Rick Rubin without him realizing I'm listening to him.
Okay, so what does Rick Rubin do?
For those of us that, you know, he's synonymous with music, but we don't exactly know what he is doing.
That's the guy in the room who only has the purest intentions at heart, which is, I just want this to be the best thing it could be.
And so people in the music business have called him like a reducer.
I think Kanye called him a reducer, not a producer.
You bring him in, and he's just sort of like, nah, that should go.
He's just, I don't know.
It's like you very rarely meet people who are the source.
Yeah.
We talk about it like me and Bibi Borrelli, who I had her at the house for like a month and a half when I was making Santiago.
Who says Bibb Borrelli?
She's incredible.
She's the one who wrote Bitch Better Have My Money by Rihanna.
She's an incredible songwriter, incredible songwriter.
And she just gives so many gems in the studio.
And one of the terms she kept saying was the source and pure, source, pure, source, pure.
And kind of how she puts it, and I agree, it's like there's people who are just the source.
They're the source of the sauce.
Like they're in there just conjuring the ideas.
And then there's people who deliver the ideas.
But there's people who no one knows who are like, we're the ones coming up with the ideas.
I would say Kanye is a source or I would say Kanye is a source.
I would also say Rick Rubin is a source.
I think like people like Sia, you know, the pop singer.
Yeah.
She's a source.
That's someone who people call on her to write their songs.
The way I interpret it right from the book and just from both of those interviews, I'm curious what you think is like he seems like a creative psychologist.
Yes.
Or like a creative therapist.
I agree.
It's like creative self-help.
Yeah, like you're coming to him being like, look, I have all these ideas and I feel really strongly about these different things, but it's all kind of nebulous.
And he would be like, this is where you should focus your energy.
This is true.
This energy you're feeling is honest and will connect with people.
I'm always skeptical of these types of people, but I have so much respect for the people that admire him.
So I give him that benefit of the doubt.
He preaches anybody else.
I'd be like, what's this hustle, bro?
But that I'm skeptical of a lot of them, but I've had a lot of benefit from a lot of them.
But isn't that how you're doing?
I think there's good and bad ones.
Isn't that how it goes with anyone?
Like, absent of credentials, aren't you skeptical of anyone and everyone?
Always.
Right?
So it's like, yeah, Rick Rubin, absent of credentials.
You're like, what is that?
I'm not skeptical if you could dump in the free throw line.
I'm not skeptical if you're putting a 50.
So it's like if you know so much about making, like, you could be like 99 problems and all these amazing.
Yeah, but Jay had plenty of hits prior to that.
No, of course.
But once again, it's never also going, this is what.
I think, you know what it is?
It's tough for non-musicians to be able to get to the point where we can decide.
We don't know what it takes to understand the contribution that people who maybe don't play an instrument or don't write lyrics have.
Phil Jackson, I don't know if the triangle offense is that effective, but he can take the ego as the talent.
Before the game moved to the three-point line, the triangle offense was incredibly effective.
The game passed him by, but he was incredibly effective.
But he was effective with the Lakers until 2011 was Kobe's last championship, 2010.
But the three-point line didn't really change.
The way that people shot threes has changed.
But you understand my point.
He takes the talent that can dunk in the free throw line.
He goes, here's how you win a championship.
Jordan doesn't win one before.
What I'm trying to say is I'm not trying to discredit his X's and O's game.
I don't want to get too far off from this, but like the triangle offense was something that was amazing.
Now, most NBA teams run one of two offenses.
It's kind of the same thing.
It's how you manage those players, which is what they're saying.
But it was something novel and unique and really cool what he was doing.
There was value.
I think why I like resonate with Rick Rubin so much is because he preaches authenticity and making music for you, the audience that is you.
Yeah.
And doing it for that reason.
And there is no such thing as writer's block because writer's block is either you not being good enough for yourself or you not being good enough for them.
It's just like there's a lot of things that he just talks about that regardless if he had credentials, what he's saying is the truth.
Got it.
You know what I'm saying?
Kanye's Influence on Taste00:15:13
Like some people, it doesn't matter.
Like I don't like, I don't know y'all from a can of paint, right?
But y'all can say things that are just the truth.
It doesn't matter if I know y'all's resume.
And you know when you hear it.
You know the truth.
You know, and I think the truth just rings out regardless if there's a resume attached to it.
And I think also with him, it's just, it's just, it's, it's somebody who's looking out for the artist, bro.
It's like, I just feel like a lot of people are not giving game on really, like you said, a self-help for creatives.
It's fucking incredible what he's doing.
So I'm all for it.
Yeah, I almost look at him like, in a way, like Tony Robbins-ish.
Right.
Where it's like he can go into a business or work with an individual.
And all the people that have worked with him publicly that talk about him, Bill Clinton, you know, Agassiz, they're like, yo, this guy changed my life.
He helped my business.
He helped me see the world more clearly.
And it seems like Rick does that for musicians.
And the contribution, to add on to that, the contribution factor of someone who, like, for people who don't make music, it's, man, it would be so incredible to have somebody in the studio who's knowledgeable, who's a visionary, who has great taste, who has no skin in the game.
Right.
And who has no bias because I'm in there by myself most of the time.
And so I'm judging super hard.
Or it's me and Boogis, my best friend.
And like, we both just like love everything we do.
And yeah, certain songs get this reaction, certain songs, but still, it's like to have somebody sort of over here who's like, I don't fucking know y'all at all.
This is the one.
This isn't the one.
Like when I met Rick Rubin in 2016, went to his house and we drove in his car.
He was driving this.
I never, it was like a white Range Rover.
We're driving down PCH and I'm playing them songs.
And I play him a bunch of songs and I get to what they want.
And I don't know if what they want had come out yet.
But for context, like what they want is like five times platinum now.
And I remember playing it, a bunch of songs from What They Want comes on and he just instantly like ears perk up and he's like, this is the one.
And this is like, you know, this dude at that time was in his, probably in his 50s, something.
So it's like not quote unquote tapped in to the youth and what would work with the youth.
And I was 22, 23 at the time.
I remember listening to that song and being so upset you were white.
And I couldn't believe this white.
But he would like Rick Rubin was like, yeah, this is the one.
You know, and it's just like.
You know, you can do that with a premise.
Like you can hear a premise now at this point in time and you go.
I think that's a great thing.
I feel like I can do that with music.
No bullshit.
I think I'm just...
I bet you play me the album.
Yeah, this is a single.
Well, here's the thing that he preaches, which like, no, but here's the thing that he preaches, which I absolutely subscribe to because it just feels like the truth, which is.
How hard is it?
Like they make the right decision for you.
But you're right.
You're right.
Because guess what he talks about?
He talks about in his Jay Shetty interview.
When you take a bite of food, how long does it take for you to say, do I like it or not?
It's instant.
Yeah.
Same shit with music.
He was like, it's just taste.
I don't have to think about whether I like it or not.
And so Rick Rubin has gotten to where he is off of his taste.
And to me, that is the flyest shit ever.
That dude has got.
So you would love Rick Rubin is the point.
Bro, I think I would.
I just, I am oftentimes skeptical when I hear about these figures and the way that they're described, right?
Because what a lot of times I think that they're like, for example, it's really nice to have somebody when you're an artist tell you what you're doing is great when all the other people around you are trying to monetize you.
Sure.
So when the label is trying to make money off this and the studio is trying to make money off this and the people at the recordings are trying to make money off.
And then somebody who doesn't need your money because he's a multi-millionaire so many times over comes over and he's like, no, I like this one here.
You go, oh, I can, there's honesty here.
Yeah.
Like, so I understand the comfort that must come from that and also the validation from someone that we always respect.
Yeah.
It's just learning about what that actual skill is.
I'm ignorant to him.
Yeah.
The only thing I know is that people that I respect really respect him.
Well, he also started Def Jam, which was like the first hip-hop label.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm saying what he, what the actual tangible thing is and this creative consultant having taste.
Like taste is huge.
Taste is everything.
That's the thing.
It's not even huge.
It's everything.
The reason why you write the jokes you write is because your taste says they're funny.
Yeah.
And the reason why you're huge is because there's a lot of other people who say, your taste is my taste.
Right.
And also just understanding what the people have.
That's taste.
Yeah.
Understanding what people want.
It's like understanding culture and understanding feeling.
That's taste.
And when you have taste, it's hard to imagine some people don't have taste.
And it's also, you can't quantify taste.
You either have it or you don't.
He did his 60 minutes with Anderson Cooper.
So do you play an instrument?
No.
Do you know how this board works?
No.
I know what my ear is like.
That's everything, though.
It's like, for me, there was a lot of imposter syndrome still is with like, maybe I'm not the best pianist and maybe I don't know how to work all the equipment, but I feel like I know so, so well what a smash is.
Bro, you know, it's funny.
And like, that's just taste.
And that's what I've been moving off.
So for me, Rick Rubin is, it's just confirmation that taste is everything.
I'm going to tell my wife this shit, bro.
There we go.
Now we've said what we were.
Now she got into the real.
I just got wife.
It's like his wife has been watching Rick Rubin ever since.
I got taste, man.
So he's like, I get it.
Pick the things out.
I just know when I don't want it.
I know when it's not there and I know when it doesn't.
It doesn't mean it's there.
But I just know and I have a really strong opinion about these things.
That's interesting, calling it taste.
Yeah.
That's what it is.
The reason why you are your clue.
No.
No, but it's like, like the way he explains it, it's so true.
It's like, do you like this food?
I don't like it.
Just taste.
It's not like you put on what you put on right now.
He really doesn't understand food.
It's like a real sensitive person.
No, but it's like...
He hurts me.
This guy is.
He really hurts me.
We wear what we want to wear.
We listen to what we want to listen to.
We eat what we want to eat.
We date who we want to date because that's our taste.
Taste dictates all of our expression.
And when our taste is confirmed by millions of people, objectively, you could say, I have great taste.
Rick Rubin has great taste.
That's why people fuck with him because objectively, he has great taste.
The guy that owns the Louis Vuitton and all the other stuff.
Bernard Arnaud.
Yeah, there's one thing that Kanye said that was intelligent, made me in his whole life, and it was that Bernard.
The difference between this guy's crazy.
Kanye is a bona fide idiot, but he does have good taste sometimes.
But as a man, he's an idiot.
Incredible technique.
Kanye has pretty good taste.
Yeah, I mean, women.
You know, he does.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
You're the most prominent Kanye hole in the planet.
For real?
Yeah.
No, no, no.
That's not true.
That's not true.
This is just recent.
Non-Jewish.
This is just recent.
Non-Jewish Kanye.
Yeah, non-Jewish Kanye.
Let me tell you, the strongest form of currency that Kanye has to offer is his taste.
That's why he's Kanye.
No, no, no.
It's because his taste is when he does something, people are like, well, that's fly because Kanye did it.
Because his.
Not recently, though.
Yes.
Not recently.
What do you mean, what recently?
Milk Factory.
But you're not dressing your girl like that.
Kanye dresses his wife like that.
You're not dressing his life.
Give me time.
Give it time.
Ain't nobody dressing her wife.
Give it time.
You're going to dress your girl like that?
No.
What's that?
I'm not the general public.
His taste went sour.
Kanye's taste went sour.
Watch him.
Hard way you go back to the sound of the sound.
Let me tell you something.
Let me tell you something.
Kanye put up a snippet.
As a rapper, you like his bars?
Be honest.
What?
Of course.
Kanye put up a snippet.
Mayonnaise colored Benza called Miracle Winchester.
That's crazy.
What are we talking about?
Miracle Witch?
I'm BC.
The Riesling.
Nah.
Nah, y'all are so gassed.
Kanye's the corniest rapper ever.
Kanye's the corniest rapper ever.
Yo, yo, I'm crazy with the Riesling.
That was a hard ass ball.
You also picked early.
I love early Kanye rap.
I don't like it as much.
All Kanye's raps is.
All Kanye's raps is Kid Cuddy.
Ah, bro.
Hold on.
Hold on.
I never heard a Kid Cuddy song before.
You're tripping.
You're tripping.
I never really heard it.
First of all, I just picked up the first four mixtapes and the first two albums, bro.
You'll have 100 songs added to your playlist.
Day and night or something.
Day night's incredible.
But hold on.
Day night is incredible.
That's when the sun goes around.
The thing with Kanye, and this is the thing with great music, this was so funny.
But tell me a bar that you like from him.
Bro, there's so many.
Give me a bar.
Give me one bar, though.
If you go, you go, listen, I got to tell the aliens why Kanye is a good rapper because they think he's corny.
Give me one bar.
I can't even pronounce nothing.
Past that for Stacey.
That shit is fucking awesome.
Everything he does, music is.
You're really believing it now.
Are you kidding that?
Nah, bro.
I really don't know.
You're in trick.
He caught the second verse.
The Diamonds Are Forever remixes.
Kanye crazy.
Kanye was the antithesis to gangster rap when he popped off.
Dude was in a popped-up polo collar on Def Jam Poetry doing fucking all faults down.
That shit was legendary.
But what I'll say, and it goes not just for Kanye, great music transcends everything.
I mean, his production is incredible.
No, but here's the thing that's ridiculous.
Here's the thing that's ridiculous with society, and I just find it humorous.
Is that he means you when he says, yeah, no, I don't take on society.
No, no, you'll see.
No, no, no, you'll see.
It's not about society.
No, no, no.
It's not you.
You don't have to defend society.
It's that a hit song absolves all mistakes.
Yes.
It's crazy.
I've said it and I know it's the truth.
If Trump had smashes, nobody will care.
No one care.
I always think about it.
I'm like, man, this is how fake mad society gets.
It's like, dog, if you have a hit, do whatever.
You think you got enough bangers?
That's how people have.
Hold on.
Do you think you got enough bangers?
Like, no one man should have all that power.
You know what I mean?
You got enough bangers, Russ.
That's right.
Do you think you got enough bangers?
No, no.
You can't get away with the labels.
You can Jaywalk.
You can jail.
Yeah, you could Jaywalk.
I could Jaywalk.
You could ball car.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Domestic violence, maybe.
No, no, no.
You could fight a bouncer.
I could fight a bouncer.
You could fight a bouncer.
No, it was a trap.
No, no, that's a trap.
What they want, bro.
Eminem?
I just think it's, I just think it's interesting how, yeah, society just picks and chooses who we're going to like vilify.
Music is primal, man.
It makes us feel these different things.
Yes.
It's spiritual.
It's something you can't touch if it's fucking awesome.
Like, what did he do?
And that's why we deify great music.
And that's how people act.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
It gets in your soul.
Bars, you like Kanye for bars?
What?
Really?
Yeah.
You're always off on this.
Everybody feels that one room.
Trust me, everybody feels.
He disagrees with you.
Nobody rapping Kanye by themselves.
Son, there was a time where people were putting Kanye in the one, two, three.
Oh, my God.
For sure.
For sure.
For the bars?
Yes, he had a run where he was competing with Wayne and Jay.
I'll tell you this.
To that point, to that point when Kanye dropped Yeezys and Kanye went on Sway, and he said, as long as I'm rapping, no one's number one because no one's talking about what I'm talking about.
It's the truth.
When Kanye dropped Yeezys and he's doing black skinhead and new slaves, who was talking about that?
No one.
No one.
What was he talking about?
What exactly?
What is he talking about?
Shit that everyone is scared to talk about.
I actually don't know this part.
Oh, my God.
What was he talking about?
I don't want to talk about it because please explain.
Because you don't know.
Because he don't listen to his bars.
No, anyway.
I'm not going to say it.
I'm not going to say that.
Nobody listens to his bars.
Go, go.
What was he talking about?
Just calling us slaves by being victims of consumerism.
Vanity slaves.
Vanity slaves.
If you've heard the song.
He sold y'all the same shit that he was calling you slaves for buying.
No, listen.
He made it, though.
Listen.
Listen.
This is Jesus.
Listen.
Nobody said he wasn't a fraud.
Okay, good, good.
Explains again.
Once again, awareness is step one.
Awareness is step one.
So when you hear like Kendrick Lamar's song, Vanity Slaves off of like EP, Kendra Mario, or OD, whatever it was, when Kanye dropped new slaves from a mainstream level to be delivering bars about basically being vanity slaves, that, bro, that's powerful.
Now, did he turn around and sell this and that?
But it's like, bro, you got to commend the audacity.
And I think with Kanye, what people always respected.
Yeah, right.
And I think what people, what me, like what I always resonated with Kanye was like, the audacity.
The audacity to just say some shit that you know you probably shouldn't be saying is, man.
Like, Kanye is my angel investor for the battery in my bag.
Okay, I'll give you that.
He'll say it.
And he doesn't worry about the repercussions.
Admirable.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
No, I'll give it a shot.
Your haircut owes to Kanye well.
He wants his haircut so bad.
He cannot wait to get this haircut.
He ain't think about it.
He's the best Kanye.
He didn't say it shit.
My favorite one is when he's talking about the manager or the executive.
He's like, yeah, you know, there is an executive.
I'm not going to say what religion he is.
He was Jewish.
Not his doctors.
I was dope by these doctors, but I'd say the doctors.
And which hospital they come from?
The Jews.
The George Bush doesn't care about black people thing is so funny.
Dude, I like the audacity.
He's so ill.
That's like a glitch in the matrix.
But he's watching that happen.
Like, we can't account for this.
And like, it makes the whole system go haywire.
And Mike Myers was there for no reason.
Handling is so funny.
And then fucking Chris Tucker's like.
Anyways, that's awesome.
I didn't miss the old Kanye.
He gets mad when we say that, but I miss the old Kanye.
No, but he's just become a guy that's like inspired by the last YouTube video he watches, and that's just the only bullshit he regurgitates.
And then once you see that, it's just hard to take anything else seriously.
Like when I see him going on these rants, it's like, oh, yeah, I too have stumbled across these videos on YouTube and I have chosen not to regurgitate this information or at least fact check it.
And he's just not.
And I also know some people that he was like getting game from that basically had to like hit him up afterwards and be like, we were just talking theoretically about these things, Kanye.
Like I spoke to the dude that he literally went on TMZ after talking to.
And spit all the shit.
No, no, he went on TMZ after he spoke to this guy.
And it was just like...
Yeah, right.
And then he talks about it.
And it's just like, oh, yeah.
So, and nothing you say is thought about at all.
You just heard something sticky or provocative or whatever.
You know what I'm trying to do, though, now, I think after being like scrutinized in the media heavy is like, just deploy more empathy.
Sticky Provocations and TMZ Spills00:06:16
That's it.
Like, that doesn't mean that I'm absolving people of like fucked up shit they're saying.
It's more so like before I go to shame, which is what I would usually go to for myself, especially.
It's like, where are you at?
Yeah.
You know, and I think that that's just a much more productive opening, you know?
So, yeah, I don't know.
It's like I, two, three, four years ago, what the fuck is wrong with these?
I'm more so now like, damn, like, I wonder what's going on.
That's it.
Who's Lucian Grange?
Yeah.
Who is he and what's his power in the music industry?
I believe he owns UMG, Universal.
But the way people speak about him is like he's pulling all the strings.
Yeah, he's just like a popular name.
I mean, he just owns a massive, so there's Universal, Warner, Sony, and whoever.
I don't know.
We've been drinking.
But yeah, I mean, there's people who are just CEOs of these massive labels and companies and they are in power.
But it's like, he's just like an attractive, popular name.
Who's the most powerful person in music?
Probably the people in Japan who actually own the shit.
What does that mean?
Oh, yeah.
Like certain, when I was with Columbia, certain deals, they went above.
So like Columbia has a CEO, but Columbia is part of Sony.
Sony has a CEO, but above that is the dude in Japan who owns all this.
See, now we talk.
So certain deals, they were above the CEO of Columbia and they were above the CEO of Sony.
It had to get approved from the dude in Japan.
And how did you do that?
Well, it just goes up the pipeline and they just run numbers.
Like, is this a good investment or not?
You know, but did you ever meet that?
No, no, no, no.
But those are the rip, like, that's why it's, it's so, I don't know.
Like, it's like thinking that the fucking head coach has that much say.
That's the face of the shit, bro.
Jerry Jones is calling the shots.
Yeah.
And he's not going to die anytime soon, unfortunately.
No, it's like, and who, and I don't know enough about football to know, it's like, there's probably someone above him.
Yeah.
Like, there's, there might be a board of people who gave Jerry Jones the money.
No, but it's like.
Fucking asshole.
No, but it's like, bro, it's the same way Hawkins.
Fuck Jerry Jones.
It's the same way politics work.
It's like Biden or Trump is the face, but there's a board of people who invested.
And so it's like, those are the ones who really are calling the shots because it's like, we invested, so you need to do X, Y, and Z. Same shit with like the people in Japan who actually own Sony as a company, not just the music.
Is that why you're afraid to call them odd?
Is that why you follow the segue?
Because they fucking sign the checks.
Is that what's going on?
No, I have no association with them.
Because I just want to apologize to all of you out there.
Because you guys owned everything.
Start thinking macro, it's like a record label is just one of the arms of Sony.
Sony also makes PlayStations, yeah, you know what I'm saying.
TV, they're making their headphones, yeah.
It's like this is just another, like, like, what's so funny is the record label, that entity in and of itself is one artist.
PlayStation is one artist.
Like, we just need one of these things to go crazy.
Yeah, but underneath each one of these things is like so many people who are like, what the fuck?
Like, I need my thing.
And it's like, bro, these people don't give a fuck.
What?
Everybody thinks that it's been in Japan.
Like, I don't know.
Like, what does he want?
Four mil?
Like, how much has he made?
A six?
Give it to him.
Whatever.
Yeah.
Like, they don't give a fuck, bro.
Are you kidding?
These people are checked out.
They're not here with y'all.
Like, what do you think they're doing out there, those fucking weirdos?
Looking at a koi pond, bro.
As they should.
That's what I would be doing if I was bees up in Japan.
Get inspired.
I'm at a koi pond eating fucking tapanyaki, just fucking minding my business.
Give me the PL.
I'm blinking on his name, but the Houston gangster that everybody have you ever had a run-in with?
No, no.
I've talked to his son before, but yeah, I mean, I've never met them.
How much control and power do they have?
I have no clue.
It seems like they have a lot.
I know what y'all know.
Outside of looking in, it seems like they have a lot.
I mean, but you talked to his son.
I'm sure you've shared things.
No, it's just literally a DN was like, what's up?
Oh, I appreciate you.
Prayer hand emojis.
Did you ever have to check in?
No.
What?
He just doesn't make, I don't think he's in that world.
The other thing is like, he operates in hip-hop.
No, I know, but it's like if you're moving around claiming to be the big bad wolf, well, like there's other big bad wolves.
So like when you go to a city that you're not from, there's other big bad wolves.
It just makes sense to be like, hey, big bath wolf, like I'm also here.
Can we coexist?
Who explained this?
It's like basic, like that to me is like basic courtesy.
Who is it?
Is that not basic courtesy?
No, it is, but I'm just saying.
So I thought they just have a control over an embargo on a no-fly zone.
Yeah.
Like any hip-hop artists that are performing here, you got to, you know, check in with them.
I've done numerous shows in Houston.
It was completely fine.
The etymology of this is that back in the day, hip-hop artists could usually only perform in like one venue in a city, and that venue was owned by like the local drug dealer.
So now you had to do a deal with the local drug dealer.
And if you didn't come with your guys, a local drug dealer who was paying you all cash, who was basically trying to clean his drug money, knew exactly where you were staying, and you might get hit for your shit on the way out of the venue.
So you had your guys reach out to them and say, hey, that's multi-layer.
But this is back.
So that's checking in.
So it's basically like, yo, am I going to be good making this mic?
Because back in the day, rap artists weren't getting to play in the fucking arenas or the crazy venues or whatever.
I think it's different, like depending on like sort of the music you make.
When I did Hollywood Bowl and I wanted to bring out YG and, you know, he hit me.
He was like, man, like the venue's tripping because of who I am and like what I'm associated with.
They're not letting me.
Arena Venues and Baseless Threats00:03:14
Long story short, like he ended up being fine, but it's like they didn't give me a hard time.
They gave him.
They gave him a hard time.
You know what I'm saying?
So I think like it just kind of depends on what the perception of you is.
Do you have to move around with security?
I move around with security because it's smart.
Because I stop thinking that it couldn't happen to me.
And also because after 2018, when there was a lot of like media hate and like cultural hate, I was just, I was just paranoid.
I'm just like, I just started.
You all start running up on people that talk shit.
Right.
So I'm just like, bro, like, I would be dumb to think that somebody that all of these are just like baseless threats.
So let me like move smart so that God forbid anything happens.
So yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Are you still moving like that?
Hell yeah.
But running up on people that you know, I was never moving like that.
Yo, that shit works though, huh?
No, but I wasn't like the re- I mean, it's um I was never doing it.
Violence works, though.
I think, um, I think uh it's actually sad.
It's an unfortunate reality that the language that some people speak is money or violence.
Yeah, meaning like fire to put it on them.
Well, it's true.
It's true.
It actually like operated that way.
It actually like exposes the um it exposes like the nuts in people.
Like how much do you really believe what you're saying?
You know, so it's like you're ballsy enough to say something online, but you're not ballsy enough to like really throw down when it happens in person.
And you know, there was a time where I was just, I fell victim to myself and my rage of wanting to stop being fucked with.
And so I was like, bro, enough is enough.
Whenever I see any of y'all, like, fuck y'all, you know?
So that's just what, that's just, yeah, because have y'all seen anyone say anything since that interesting?
No, but isn't that interesting?
No, but that's, but that's what I'm saying.
Like, everyone speaks violence.
Yeah.
Everyone does.
So no one understands that language.
It's like, and it's fucked up.
It's like, damn, y'all just weren't spanked like as a kid.
Cause like, why did I don't know?
It's just like, ever, I'm not going to say like when I was 17 or 18, I wasn't on Twitter talking shit as nobody.
But it's like, I have never, I've never talked shit since getting on and famous and successful about anyone.
And if I have, I always knew that there could be blowback.
But this whole notion of like, I'm going to talk shit and like, yeah, I'm good.
It's just like, damn, bro.
Like, yeah, that's, I'm sorry that like, uh, you just didn't learn this lesson earlier.
And it's not even a, it's not even a positive thing that I even want to promote because it causes, it causes me to have to look over my shoulder straight up.
You know what I'm saying?
Because it's like, I also don't expect anyone that like there was an altercation with to sort of just like take accountability and let it go.
Silence After Fame and Success00:15:52
Like, yeah, you know what?
I did talk shit about him.
Then I got punched in the mouth.
Like, all right, we're even.
I assume they're like, fuck you.
I'm going to get my gut back.
Yeah.
And so it's like, damn, like, I wish I didn't do any of this shit.
Right.
But it's like, I didn't, you know, I always talk about like going to chapter one.
Like, I didn't start chapter one.
Yeah.
You know, I didn't say, I didn't talk to any of y'all.
I don't know any of y'all.
I just fucking capitalized on their ignorance.
Real Italian bomb box.
Yeah, those Italians have to know whole box.
Unfortunately, the capital is.
No, it's just.
It was a lack of respect.
No, it wasn't.
It's not who I want to be.
You turned me into a man.
It's not.
No, it's really not.
It's not fly.
Yeah.
It's really not.
It's not fly.
And there's a long-term cost.
The security is a long-term cost.
There is because I don't blame revenge is a dish best served cold.
So I don't blame any of those dudes if like five years from now, they're like, you thought we forgot.
Fuck you.
We caught you in the Bahamas.
You know what I'm saying?
So like I wouldn't blame any of them, but it's also like, whatever.
They just lack accountability.
If you were an evil individual record executive that wanted to create a system that could extract as much wealth from the artists that you possibly could, given the technology that exists right now, how would it look?
Easy money.
Okay.
You create somebody who is the most radical persona and image of counterculture, counterculture as possible and feed them hits.
That's it.
Like, think about it.
Give me an example.
So like me and Boogis talk about this all the time, which is I think at its core, I think hip-hop is black culture, right?
And I think you've heard from a lot of different perspectives within the black culture.
You've heard from the CEO, right?
A Jay-Z, also a drug dealer.
You've heard from the artsy dude, Kanye.
You've heard from a stripper.
You've heard from the...
It's like, what's the next extreme thing that you haven't heard from yet?
What's the next extreme perspective you haven't heard from yet?
Get that.
Look at Sexy Red.
I think Sexy Red.
Just going to say that.
I think Sexy Red is all.
I don't subscribe to this like it's like a weapon of mass destruction.
I just think like it's the natural progression of things.
It's like sexy red is, I think, represents the authenticity that everyone else is almost trying to push.
She's like the real deal.
She's the real thing.
And that's why it resonates because it's like, oh.
Very, very small percentage of the culture.
Very small, but it's impactful.
But it's impactful and it's authentic.
And so look at like the progression of the game, right?
It's like, okay, but where do you go after sexy red?
At some point, me and Boogis talk about this all the time.
At some point, you're going to hear, you've heard from the CEO, you've heard from the drug deal, you've heard from the stripper, you've heard from this.
At some point, you'll hear from the crackhead.
You'll hear from the this.
You'll hear.
Oh, shit.
Yeah, hold on.
Why would it stop at the think about it?
Why would it stop here?
You're right.
Because you just get more exhausted than men.
That's why women have been making this music.
It's like, think about it, bro.
Like, we're not stopping here.
It's going to go to the next level and then the next and then the next.
It's more extreme.
Oh, yes.
Bro, give it 10 years, a crack, a legitimate, like where it's like clear that that's their brand.
We'll have a number one song in the world and it is a known crackhead.
And we will be living in a black mirror episode where everyone is rooting and cheering on for the train wreck of a crackhead.
What was the first thing you said, though?
You said counterculture, right?
Yeah.
And counterculture is anything that goes almost completely against whatever the mainstream popularity is.
Well, and what in my correct me if I'm wrong.
The culture of hip-hop at its core and at its inception was intelligent movement.
What's the antithesis of intelligent movement?
Crackhead.
Being reckless.
Reckless.
Okay.
We're like kind of close.
Well, no, no, to your point, I want to.
Everything right now, like why, why the old heads are like hip-hop is dying is because what is happening is counterculture to the culture of hip-hop's inception.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the shit happening in hip-hop is actually counterculture in the culture is hip-hop.
To the counterculture.
I'm curious about this.
Okay.
Hip-hop, I don't think, had a number one album last year.
Right.
Until whatever it was.
Yeah.
There is a form of music that has gained strong popularity.
And I sent it to the groups that it was so spot on.
I'm curious your take on it.
And is country this rebellion that you're talking about?
Is this this counterculture?
If the mainstream culture, if everybody's listening to hip-hop and hip-hop is, it might not be representative of every single person in America, but it is popular music now.
Is country now the most rebellious or counterculture thing to hip-hop?
And is that why it's become so popular?
I think this.
I think it's not that black and white, but I think there's a couple things.
I think it happened with rock music, which is subject matter and rock music reached the ceiling where we had heard everything.
And I think with rap, we have heard everything.
Oh, you're also sliding on an op?
Heard that.
In fact, I heard it and it was better.
If you're selling drugs, I heard that.
50 did it and it was way harder.
You're sad.
You're emotionally.
You're sad?
Heard that.
Cuddy, way better.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like everything that's happening in rap, I've already heard the better version of it.
So what haven't we heard yet?
So it's reached this point of we've heard all of this.
It's like at this sort of breaking point where what's about to happen.
And that's one layer of it.
I think the other layer is people who listen to country and rock, they weren't on the streaming platforms at first.
They were still on iTunes.
Yeah.
Right?
They were still buying CDs.
They were still buying CDs.
They've migrated.
They've migrated over where now my dad is on Spotify.
See what I'm saying?
That was the last music that was still broken.
Right.
So now you're getting the audience that was basically country music's audience, in my opinion, was last to migrate to streaming.
But now that they have, people are seeing that.
Wow, there's a lot of them.
So it's not necessarily a lot of rhythm in America that they're just that they were the last ones to convert.
And because of the conversion of migration, now we're seeing these numbers that look astronomical, but those were always there.
The fucking numbers.
They were always there.
That's interesting.
They were always there.
They've been moving music.
Yeah.
They were always there.
They were just last to their party.
They had a phone award show.
That was huge.
They were just last to the party is all that happened, in my opinion.
But also, I do think rap's subject matter has reached a ceiling where there's no new perspectives being introduced outside of like the select few, which is why like I know a lot of people had flagged for Kendrick's most recent album.
But in my opinion, Father Time is like one of the greatest songs released in the past 10 years because I've never heard a mainstream rapper talk about, and I could be wrong, right?
I don't want to like say that this is the God's honest truth, but it's like I just have never heard a mainstream rapper talk about father issues in that light.
I thought it was fucking profound.
I've heard mother issues and all that.
Or child abuse.
He talks about it.
Yeah, it's like, I think introducing new concepts into the lexicon of rap is powerful.
And if you don't like the sound of it, that's fine.
That's fair.
That's taste.
But I respect that.
And that's why I did Santiago was because honestly, like Kendrick's album and really Father Time inspired me to speak on my issues because I was like, oh, you know, oh, so it's safe to do that.
And then I think I also like talked about shit that's never been talked about before.
This is all forms of art.
Once people see that it can be done, they feel way more comfortable doing it themselves as well.
They just can't conceptualize talking about like an abusive childhood or a relationship with their parents, which they might also have, but they're too locked in this game of how can I replicate what's successful.
Once you make something else successful, they start going, well, I would also like to try to do that.
Sure.
The labels are hanging on by a threat.
I'll tell you this.
Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
The labels are not going to allow rap to fall by the wayside like that.
They're going to keep boosting and juicing the stream so that it appears that what are y'all talking about?
Rap's not losing steam.
There's country, sure, but we're still crushing.
No, you're not.
Wow.
You're having to spend a lot of money to keep up the facade.
This is a star is born.
What is the Lady Gaga movie?
It's that.
It's right now the labels are doing everything they can to keep the makeup and the wig and the choreography going so that it looks like shit is popping.
But it's not.
It's not.
And how does that end?
Do they run out of money?
No, I think it's like every genre.
I think, bro, to be honest, once again, the truth is boring, right?
Here's the truth.
You know what it is?
Four years ago, every CEO was signing every SoundCloud rapper and their cousin.
You know what they're about to do?
Sign every country artist and their cousin.
And guess what?
The country artists, like we talked about before, they'll make enough money to cover the loss of the rappers that they're still fronting.
And so it doesn't matter.
It'll always look like rap's still doing its thing.
Country's booming.
Yeah, but rap is still crushing.
Yeah, but y'all are signing the country artists.
I know, because I'm talking to the fucking, I still have relationships with the people at the labels, and some of them are good people.
And we talk about it all the time, where it's like, their whole focus is country artists.
My theory is.
Their whole focus is.
Look at Morgan Wallen, bro.
Are you kidding?
Well, he uses some words rappers use.
Bro, Morgan Wallen.
Bro.
Morgan Wallen, Jelly Roll.
Shout out Jelly.
Yo, that's the man.
Bailey Zimmerman, like all these dudes who are like dudes and women who are coming through this vessel of this singer-songwriter, country twang, alternative sort of space.
That's who the labels are scooping up like they were doing six years ago with like Lil TJ and Polo G and all those kind of guys.
It's like, that's what they're on now.
That's, it's musical chairs, bro.
It's like thinking that these people actually give a fuck about you is a mistake.
Now, now, now, real quick.
If rap starts to, let's say, struggle and views and streams are harder to come by.
Yeah.
Do you think that rappers will resort to more extreme tactics in order to garner those views or streams?
And that's how the art becomes the crackhead doing all these crazy things.
Or the slide on the ops gets even crazier.
I need to do something even crazier in order to get the reaction that I did before.
Yes, but also it's like labels.
I think labels are going to...
You got some blade energy.
Yeah, you got it.
Get it from it.
I think labels are going to continue to prop up rap to attract newcomers.
Because put it like this, right?
Labels letting rap fall is a bad idea for them because now where are the up-and-coming rappers going to go to?
They're going to feel like, well, no, I'm not going to go over there.
I'm not going to sign because all these rappers are falling off.
But if you keep seeing rappers doing crazy numbers, you're like, all right, so there's still a place for us.
So they're going to keep propping it up, knowing deep down, damn, we're having to spend 30 grand every four weeks to keep all these rappers propped up.
But these country artists are making millions.
But you know what?
At least we're still recruiting and persuading these up and coming rappers to come over here.
And they want to keep the rappers so they don't lose like market share?
Yeah, of course.
Also, you don't want to.
This is a fact.
I might even get, I don't know, my lawyer will probably call me after this.
But when I left Columbia, first of all, I bought myself out of the deal.
What does that mean?
It means they wanted another album.
Yeah.
Right.
And I said, I'm not doing another album.
They said, okay, well, we need money.
This is like layman's terms.
I'm like, all right, cool.
Here's a million and some change.
Y'all can have it.
And also part of that was, well, we want market share on your first 20 songs or whatever the fuck it was that you put out independent.
What do I give a flying fuck about y'all's little dick measuring contest in the industry?
Meaning those songs.
Meaning, like after I leave the label, when I put out 20 songs independently and Hits Daily Double puts out the market share report where UMG has 30%, Sony has 20.
Sony wanted to be able to claim my first 20 or whatever songs independently as part of their market for you.
Even if they're not with Sony, that was part.
What do I give a fuck about y'all's weird dick measuring contest that you can flex to the other fucking weird CEO at the Christmas party?
I don't give a flying fuck.
I'm getting out of here.
You know what I'm saying?
But it's like, like, that's what they're moving off of is market share.
Yes.
Because bonuses are attached with that.
If you're number one at market share, get a bigger check.
Yeah.
For you as a CEO or whatever.
Of course.
So my theory with music genres is that any new music genre, it's going to have its spike.
Yeah.
And then it's going to level out.
Sure.
People say rock is dead.
Rock's not dead.
It's just smaller.
Yeah.
People still, no, no, I don't know if, I don't think it booms again.
I think it just levels out.
So it's like, right now we're in the country boom.
Yeah.
And it's going to level out.
I just think country.
Hip hop has leveled out.
Can I say now?
Now we have Afro Beats, which is a new version of music that people haven't heard.
I want to say so many hot takes.
No, but country's not new.
Country's been around for a whole time.
No, but I know what he's saying.
I know what you're saying.
New to like streamers and no, just like new to the marketplace with the music.
This is the first time since streaming boom where country was cool to young people.
Yes.
Fair enough.
But to that point, I think I think we're, once again, this is, this is a, this is really me holding up a mirror because I'm white.
So like I feel, I can speak on this.
White people.
White people and white boys and white chicks with the colleges and sororities and fraternities.
So enamored by black culture, right?
And for a while, and for a while, it went from like, I remember being in high school and there was pockets of like the goth chicks and people who they listened to like a certain kind of music.
There's people listening to like, you know, I went to high school, 06.
I was a freshman, 2010, I graduated 20 minutes outside of Atlanta.
So like Snap Music and D4L and Soldier Boy came and performed at the Pepper Rally.
Hip-Hop Dominance and Past Eras00:04:11
And so it was like that era.
It's like, there was people who were listening to that and whatever.
I think now what's happened with rap is that the people who would have been listening to goth music and goth artists and punk, you know, artists, whether it was chemical romance or whatever it was, here's Lil Pete.
Here's Juice World.
Hip hop gave every genre representative.
But now it's happening.
The pendulum has swung where it's like, you know what?
I think I would just rather listen to just the goth artist or just the country artist, not the country hip-hop mix, not the goth hip-hop mix.
There's enough art, like it just, it just, it's time, right?
It's time where it's like, it was also hip-hop dominated.
We got to really think, right?
It's been 2024, it's been 10, 11, 12 years since like trap boomed and it was a complete insurgence and takeover, right?
Where rap and mainly the production of rap and the trap influence was in everything.
Ariana Grande was putting out albums that had trap hi-hats.
You feel me?
It's like you got the biggest pop stars in the world using hip-hop influence and 808s and shit like that.
So I just think now enough time has passed where people are like, oh, it starts with the artist where it's like, you know what?
I think I just want to make like some punk, punk pop goth shit.
Some fucking boys like girls, chemical romance, all-American reject shit.
Like, I just want to do that.
And then the same people who were listening to maybe like the emo version of hip-hop are like, oh, you know what?
It was really this that I was looking for.
This just wasn't there in 2014, but now it is there.
And I think, I just think that that's what's happening.
It's just, it's becoming a lot.
It's a lot more nuanced in there.
Yeah, it's becoming a lot more compartmentalized.
It's like, if you want pop punk emo shit, there's actually pop punk emo bands that can just fulfill that role.
And if you want trap rap, there's that.
I think the past 10 years, rap just bled over to everything.
And so it was massive.
And now I think you have people like the Noah Khan's who are singer-songwriters and the Lizzie McAlpines or whatever her name is.
She's fucking incredible.
And just, you know, Luke Bryants and Morgan Wallins and Bailey, just all these people who occupy real estate that maybe five years ago belonged to rap fans, there was an overlap.
But now it's just very clear to those same fans that actually this is just what I wanted.
Morgan Wallen blew up, right?
And I think within a year or two, not Morgan Wallen, Noah Khan.
That song Stick Season.
It's fucking incredible.
Sold out Fenway Park.
Wow.
Really?
Yes.
Like, I think two nights in a row.
Jesus.
Wow.
And it's like Fenway Park.
But like, you say the name Noah Khan in a hip-hop space.
Nobody knows.
I don't know.
I don't know who Noah Khan is.
You've got a song.
But Stick Season is fucking incredible.
They're also probably not buying as many fake streams.
No, but like, you know what?
You know what, to me?
To me, bro, like...
You never know.
Never know.
I'm just so passionate about.
This is not reflected in that.
I'm so passionate about great music.
Yeah.
And I think that is what will always win.
Yeah.
It's great music.
And I think a lot of artists and a lot of people, they get caught up in why things aren't working.
Why is hip-hop failing?
Why is this?
You know what?
The greats are always going to be fine.
The greats are always.
The greats are always going to be fine.
The people who were never that ill will always fall off.
Sorry.
This is not related to what you said, but I just didn't want to forget it.
Can you talk about industry plants a little bit?
Like, I hear that term a lot.
Yeah.
What does that even mean?
I don't even know what it is.
You know what that means to people?
And it's so funny because the prerequisite years ago used to be you had to be an industry plant.
And what industry plant means is basically like, we only know you because the industry planted you here.
Well, that used to be the only way you could be known.
Yeah.
Think about it, right?
It's like the first time I heard J. Cole was 09 on Blueprint 3 on A Star is Born.
I remember I bought Blueprint 3 and Cuddy's debut on the same day, September 9th, I think, 09, right?
Greats Stay While Others Fall00:11:02
September 13th, something like that.
That was the first time I heard J. Cole.
Then I heard the warm-up and it was a rap and I was a fan.
He was an industry plant by industry plant standards because first time I hear he was on a Jay-Z album.
It's a crazy industry.
I think he was already signed to Jay.
But it's like that used to be.
I grew up in Queens and he went to St. John's, I believe.
And he was like, I saw him handing out.
Right.
So you were like early in that way.
But it's like, before he was on.
It's like you used to only be able to find out about artists if the industry pushed them.
And then the internet opened up and a lot of this like organic rise and guerrilla movements happened to the point where it was very clear, like if you blew up via internet in guerrilla style or if like an industry put you there.
And so it started this conversation of, nah, you're not as real as them.
And, you know, and for me, it's like, it used to fuck with me a lot, to be honest.
People calling me an industry plan because.
Discredits all the work you did.
Yeah.
Bro, because I am the furthest thing from it.
And it's like, and I get mad because I'm like, one, discredits the work, but two, I'm like, damn, bro.
Y'all are missing out on so much inspiration.
Do you understand that, like, if you actually realize the truth, that you would realize you can do it too?
Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
It's like, bro, they want the justification for why they didn't do it.
Yeah, they don't want enough work.
Of course, they'd rather not do the work and have an excuse.
And it, yeah, he's on because he cheated, not because you're nice.
Right.
And you're and you figured out the system and you did that.
Well, your parents have money, so it actually doesn't count.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it, bro, used to bother the fuck out of me because I prided myself on that.
It was a part of my identity.
Yeah.
Was my come up.
You know what I mean?
Like, damn, y'all about it.
Like, especially it came during a time where they were taking away everything else.
It felt like.
I was like, damn, y'all taking away that too?
Like, that was the thing that was like Teflon.
Like, wait, y'all are saying this now?
What were they saying?
And I remember the dude who started the rumor straight up.
And I'm cool with him now.
What rumor?
What were they saying?
So the rumor was, it started on Kanye to the it was a forum.
Yeah.
Right.
And the rumor was my dad worked for Columbia.
Oh.
And that's how I got on.
First of all, none of that makes sense.
Right.
It's like, so then why did I have to put out 11 mixtapes?
Yeah.
Oh, so he conveniently got hired after the 11th mixtape.
It's like, okay, that's awesome.
Yeah.
Son, put out 11 mixtapes and I'll make you famous.
Right.
So, yeah, right.
And I remember just being so pissed, bro.
So pissed.
And there's still people who like, you know, I get the comments of like, just fake independent shit.
Talk about how your dad gave you all the.
I'm like, what?
Where do you think this comes from in people?
Not just you.
This is a human.
I think, you know what it comes from?
It comes from an inability to look at yourself.
Yeah.
It's an inability to have accountability for the choices you've made and where they've landed you.
And it's easier to say, I haven't gotten to where I want to get to because I'm not cheating like he is.
I would say it's a fear of looking at yourself.
Absolutely.
Yeah, even inability almost gives them too much.
The fear provides that inability.
They're not dumb.
They're terrified.
It's scary to look at yourself.
And it's scary to look at.
It's awful, bro.
It's awful, especially if you view yourself and your identity is tied to you being awesome.
Yeah.
And you being the man.
That for me was like my downfall.
Yeah.
Was like, I got my, I got my perceived confidence from thinking I was the man.
And so when things would happen that would tell me I wasn't the man, it like, and I talk about it on the song Fraud on Santiago.
It wasn't surface level where it's like, okay, big deal.
Like people said you're not the man.
It's like, nah.
Beneath the surface is it made me question, well, then who am I then?
Yeah.
That's the imposter syndrome shit.
Right.
Because if who I am is the man and something happens that's like, you're clearly not, then it's like, well, who am I then?
Yeah.
You know, in the fucking my head.
Because deep down, you're like, I'm not the man.
I'm not the man.
And if I'm not affirming that.
And if I'm not the man, I'm nothing.
Do you ever think about how beneficial the insecurity was?
And I'm curious.
Do you ever think like, yo, if I was fully secure, what would I be doing right now?
Because I don't think you'd be this.
I think if I was, you know what?
Let me actually answer it like this.
I think there is a big, big part of me and still is where I compare my struggles.
Meaning, like, damn, my struggles aren't valid because my struggles aren't that struggle.
And I had to realize that, you know what?
Yeah, maybe I didn't grow up a certain way, but I had my own struggles that are specific to me that are difficult.
Yeah, maybe my struggle wasn't my mom was an alcoholic and my dad left or whatever the fuck it is, right?
It's like, but maybe my struggle was what it was on Santiago.
And, you know, it's like to compare struggles also fuels that imposter syndrome where it's like, oh, so if my struggle isn't as tough, perception-wise as their struggle, his struggle, her struggle, that means that my shit isn't real.
And that made me start like dismissing my own struggle where it was like, bro, get over it.
Because your shit is not even as real as that.
And it's like, that comes from comparing struggles and thinking that my shit needs to be that.
Yeah.
And it's like, I think the fear might be if you put it out there and then people tell you that's not even a real struggle.
Then you got vulnerable and then you get told the shit that hurt your feelings wasn't even worth getting your feelings hurt.
And you're like, well, fuck.
Oh, yeah.
Getting gaslit by society is just par for the course.
You know what I mean?
That's what that, I mean, because that's what that is, right?
When I canceled the European tour and I didn't even fully know why I needed to cancel it, but I just knew I needed to, I was getting gaslit by the thousands in the games.
Oh, like, for lack of better words, get over it.
Big deal.
I'm going through shit too.
My girl just left me.
I just lost my job.
It's like, all right, so fuck what I'm going through then.
You know, and because that's how men operate.
I think that's how men operate.
It's also men, but it's also like successful people.
It's like, nobody wants to hear Jeff Bezos' problems.
Like, if you got a problem with your girl, keep that shit to yourself.
Straight up.
And I think there's less, yeah.
And I get that.
There is a lack of empathy.
But, you know, the cost of success.
I've talked about, and it is forever, to use your word, odd to me, because it is awfully odd that as successful people, we are not allowed to experience the average human emotion without scrutiny.
However, the average human expects us to act like we're not above them, but you treat us like we are above feeling what you feel.
That's what's confusing to me, right?
It's like if the average person is like, you're so rich and successful, you're not allowed to be sad.
It's like, okay, let's go with that.
So you're telling me that in a way, you're telling me, I'm above you.
I'm so much above you that I can't even feel your peasant emotions.
You know what I'm saying?
I don't think you say you're not allowed to be sad.
That's what it is.
I think they say, we just don't care if you're a sad person.
No, but even.
No, no, no, no.
It's literally like sad about rich shit.
Don't know.
It's not.
Because not even rich in his life.
You could be sad about breaking up with your girl.
No, you can't.
I think that they would have empathy because they just went through that.
It's just, if you're rich, all of your problems are like.
You literally just said Jeff Bezos.
They're not really problems of the age.
And so to me, if you get cheated on with his family, I just think it's interesting how society holds celebrities to an emotional standard that's above their own and then act bizarre and act offended if a celebrity acts like they're above them.
But you have literally told them who you think they are.
You think they're above you because you think they are immune to feeling what you feel because they've achieved something higher than you could ever achieve.
No, maybe they feel like I think that's something important to understand is like, achieving like wealth specifically is so monumentally difficult.
Like there are people that are, they can't even fathom making what you might make in a month.
Right.
So the idea of having that, it feels if you don't have it, that it would solve all the problems.
Sure.
Because it's so like, it's so just far-fetched.
Yeah.
So they can't even conceptualize or empathize with going through these other things because in their mind, just like all of us before we had any money, we were like, man, if I had all the money, I wouldn't fucking care.
My girl breaks up with me.
I'm getting another girl.
I'm getting four girls.
I'm going on vacation to this.
So there just probably is a lack of empathy for it.
And this is what I always tell like my fans and people is like, listen, I think the best level of understanding somebody could give you sometimes is understanding that you don't understand.
Just give me that.
Like, because in that, there is understanding.
Like, you could tell me something you're going through and I may not relate to it, but I can at least deploy the empathy and understanding to know that I don't understand.
And so therefore, I'm not going to pass judgment and say you should or shouldn't be feeling this.
I'm just going to understand that I don't understand.
That ain't what the internet's for.
No.
Commenting, hey, listen, I don't understand is not going to happen.
People that don't understand don't comment.
Exactly.
The people that don't understand comment and say this is dumb.
No, I'm sorry.
The people that understand.
Yeah, exactly.
The people who have empathy are just going to not say anything.
Well, and that's like, I saw this on, or I said this on Twitter earlier.
It's like social media birth the rise of the haters because being cool in a lot of people's eyes is getting views and retweets.
And negativity gets the most views and retweets.
So you got a bunch of people who want to be cool.
And the quickest way to get there is by being a hater and passing judgment.
So like it's cool to like, we all laugh, me included, like see a quote tweet that just, if it's got enough retweets, it must be funny and it's hilarious and you laugh and it's like, damn, it's kind of crazy that like random people with no profile picture just like get pop in and get paid now off of being a hater.
Yeah.
Like I'm not from that generation where it's like, you got literally applauded for being a hater.
Negativity Gets the Most Views00:04:11
Yeah.
Because we would have just asked like, but what do you do with your life?
And it's like, if your claim to your bank account is, oh, I passed judgment and I hate on Twitter.
That's how like I get money.
You're a loser.
I don't care how you got your money.
Like you're a loser.
You know what I mean?
That's a fact.
You're still a loser, though.
Is that the cost of success?
Yeah, that comes with the dinner.
It's like, yeah, par for the course.
Like, like, I wonder if some of this is like as maybe annoying as it is, as we can call the behavior loser behavior, whatever, part of the cost of being able to take your mom around the whole world.
Oh, yeah.
That has to be.
Don't come to America.
Do it.
There's going to be a negative.
It has to be trade-offs.
Yeah.
It has to be trade-offs.
Yeah.
And it's like, if that's the trade-off, so be it.
Yeah.
You know why?
Because it's like the positive is so much crazy.
The positive is crazy.
Negative.
It's like, all right, so the negative is like, maybe once in a blue moon, like something goes viral about you negatively.
The positive is every day my mom is good and a beach house.
It's like, so like maybe three times a year, I get shit on, but 365 days out the year, I'm living my dream.
Yeah.
So like I win forever.
You know what I mean?
And that's the thing to focus on 100% perspective.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's easy to get to.
Well, because we're so zoomed in.
It's also like when you create art or you really care about the thing that you're creating, anything that is hard to not personalize.
Displayed negatively about it.
Like it hurts you a little bit.
Of course.
Absolutely.
That makes sense.
Because we're so close.
If we were creating a fucking power bar or we're creating, you know, some random product, it's not like our love and our passion.
We're like, how much protein can we get into this bar?
Oh, did we get 40 grams?
Okay, we got it in.
I also think that's our genius, though, is having, and this is, Rick Rubin talks about this, the antennas being up.
Yeah, the sensitivity is best taste, to be honest.
It's like you look at somebody like Kanye or you look at somebody like Drake.
Yeah, I'm born now.
And it's like, no, but listen.
But it's like, you look at somebody like Kanye or Drake and it's like, damn, why are they so big?
Yeah, the music's great and whatever.
But a lot of what's impacting and staying with people is the vulnerability and their ability to be sensitive to what they're feeling and express it in an authentic way.
That can't happen if you don't give a fuck.
The reality, though, is that that attribute doesn't live inside of a vacuum.
It's going to also bleed over into other aspects of their life.
And so you're going to get outburst because they're sensitive.
Because they're feeling.
You can't be good at this if you're not sensitive.
No, it's not a great artist if you're not sensitive.
No, it's like I used to be, I used to feel, it didn't last long, but it was for a little bit where I was like, man, like, I'm too sensitive.
And I let this shit go.
And I was like, nah, bro.
That is literally my superpower.
Yeah.
Like, my ability to have the antenna up and to receive the message and execute it without interference is the superpower.
And if I start letting the outside world tell me that having my antennas up is weak, then I'll be y'all.
I don't want to be y'all.
Y'all suck.
You know what I mean?
You want to feel it?
Like, I don't want to live y'all's life.
Yeah.
Comfortable.
Brush, listen, we've been, I don't know how long we've been going on this.
Is that the time right there?
Yeah.
Five and a half?
No, no, no, no.
5.30.
What time did we start?
Jesus Christ.
Start like 1.30 or something like that?
Yeah.
About four hours rolling.
Oh my God.
Bro.
Okay.
So then before we go, anything else?
What is the next 20 years, in 20 years when we come back and we reflect on this, when we're chilling on the Amalfi Coast and we're laughing about the last vacation that we went on and all the family is good and there's more family and that family even has family, all those things are happening.
Living Inside a Tunnel Vision00:03:56
What is the conversation about where is Russ mentally?
What are you creating?
Honestly, I think for me, I just want to get closer and closer to an authentic balance between my personal life and my career.
And I think my whole 20s, I spent down the rabbit hole of feeding my career, you know, which is natural and it's good and it's paid off.
And now I'm trying to like incorporate some of this balance.
And I think in 20 years, like I'm never going to stop making music.
It's like, are you ever going to stop like thinking shit is funny?
Like, no.
So it's like, I'll always be making music.
I just think I want to get even closer to this place of like, I just don't see me.
You feel me though.
You know?
Yeah.
And that's it.
Because to the, to the fisherman fable, it's like, that's what it's about.
Like, that's it.
I'm already living like that, but I want to get even closer to like, yo, like, I'm, I'm putting out music from this island and like, you know, that's that.
You take seven years off, then you make an album.
Yeah, because, bro, to be honest, I'm also trying to show my fans and show people who care enough to pay attention that there's an authentic, alternative way to like do this whole music thing.
And sometimes I beat myself up for not playing the game or being in LA and being on the scene and like, damn, I should have been at that party.
And I bet if I had a spot in LA for three months, I would have been here.
And it's like, yeah, maybe you would have been.
But then what?
You know, it's like, and maybe it would have paid off here.
But it's like, damn, bro, ask yourself the why.
The why is so important.
It's like, all right, so you could have moved there.
You could have gone to that party.
You could have said something different.
Why, though?
Oh, well, then people will fuck with me more and they would know that I'm really who I think I am.
Oh, so you don't think you are who you think you are.
It's like it's a lack of your own approval.
And so I'm just trying to get closer to the point of like, bro, like y'all can run around and chase all this weirdo shit.
And I just want to deploy empathy to everyone.
I wish I could talk to every artist who's popping and just be like, and just talk straight up because I feel like all of us are living inside of this fucking tunnel where we can't move either way.
And we think we're the only ones in here.
And we see everyone else's Instagram and everyone else's success.
And we assume that, damn, man, they haven't figured out.
Not knowing that they're sitting there like this.
Yeah.
You know?
And we're just all too prideful to like talk to each other.
And, you know, I try and I try to hit up people, but I understand like the music business, it's politics.
Yeah.
You know, and I, and I mean that not in the like, I don't know, in the weird way.
It's like everyone's a politician.
And so you, you fuck with somebody based off of like temperature right now and what they can do for you right now.
Sure.
And like if it doesn't make sense, you won't even respond to the DM, but maybe you got to hit on radio, hey, what's up?
Like keep grinding.
Keep crushing.
Yeah.
And all this shit.
Like, I just wish, you know, I wish people knew my intentions.
I wish people knew that they don't have to compromise who they are to reach the masses.
And yeah, I'm just trying to get closer to feeling better about the person I'm choosing to be on a day-to-day.
Amen to that, my boy.
Russ, go check out South Tiago and go check out the sand.
Dropped by the time this came out, it was, I've already dropped.