Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

July 22, 2024 - Fresh & Fit

04:24:38

Matthew Cox On Becoming FBI's Most Wanted Con Man, $55 Million In Fraud, Prison & MORE

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Thank you.
	What's up, guys?
	Welcome to Fresh Air Podcast.
	We're here with Matt Cox.
	We got a lot to talk about.
	Let's get to it, baby!
	Let's go.
	What's up, guys?
	Welcome to the Fresh Fit Podcast.
	Man, it is Money Monday, and we are here with a legend, Matt Cox.
	We had a lot to talk about, man.
	We were chapping it up a little bit before the show.
	Sorry for the delay.
	Quick announcement against the show, guys, and I apologize if my voice sounds crazy.
	I was sick the past few days from the RNC, but rumble.com slash Fresh Fit.
	Check us out over there.
	Also, castleclub.tv, as you guys know, that is the home base for us, so you know where to find us at any time, castleclub.tv.
	And anything else?
	Oh yeah, Yacht Party.
	August 10th, guys.
	FFPod.org, man.
	Go ahead and get in there.
	We got a big yacht.
	You want to talk about it in a little bit?
	We got from 9pm to 1am.
	Three stories.
	Free bar and food as well.
	A lot of girls.
	A bunch of girls are going to be there.
	Celebrities too.
	Don't miss it.
	We'll see you guys August 10th, 9pm to 1am.
	Yep.
	And the price point, we went ahead and made it more affordable for you guys, $9.98.
	Yep.
	Free to get an open bar, free food, a big yacht with 350 people.
	Hey, man, you're not going to find that price point.
	And we're going to be there, too, man.
	And we're going to have a bunch of girls, and we're going to be there with some other influencers as well.
	Sneak on, we're trying to get them over there.
	Yeah.
	And whoever else is in town, Zerka, probably.
	So it's going to be a good time, guys.
	So check us out on that yacht, August 10th.
	It's that Saturday, 9 p.m.
	to 1 a.m.
	It's going to be a good time.
	But without further ado, we've got a special guest in the house, man.
	Welcome, Matt.
	This interview has been in the works for a bit.
	I'm so happy to have you here, man.
	We were chopping it up a little bit before the show.
	Come from different backgrounds, which is interesting because like adversarial almost, but it's great to be able to be on a podcast and have a discussion about it.
	I appreciate you guys having me.
	Is this good?
	Yeah, we got you.
	So, Matt, we know who you are, but can you introduce yourself to the people real quick?
	My name is Matt Cox and I owned a mortgage company.
	I did, depending on who you believe, roughly $55 million in mortgage fraud.
	I was on the FBI's most wanted list.
	I was number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list.
	I was on the run for three years and I did 13 years in federal prison for bank fraud and a slew of other charges related to bank fraud.
	So, can you kind of take us through, before we get into the criminal investigation and everything else that went into that, can you kind of take us through your background, where you're from, what it was like growing up?
	Yeah, so I grew up, actually grew up upper middle class.
	Like, you know, other people have a good reason why.
	You grew up in the projects and you end up selling drugs.
	It's like, okay, well, you were surrounded by it, you know what I'm saying?
	So, I can kind of see how it's tough to escape that.
	But I was raised upper middle class, I had a severe learning disability.
	Went to school for kids with learning disabilities.
	My father was an alcoholic.
	I basically wasn't the son that he thought he deserved.
	Wasn't super tall.
	Wasn't super athletic.
	He deserved better.
	Dyslexia, right?
	Yeah, dyslexia.
	You know, visual and audio, auditory dyslexia.
	So, anyway, I end up graduating high school.
	I go to college.
	I end up getting a degree in fine arts.
	And after getting a degree in fine arts, I worked, got laid off from a few jobs.
	Where'd you get it from?
	What?
	The degree in fine arts.
	USF. USF? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Did you know what you wanted to do while you were in school?
	Or you didn't know yet?
	Well, I mean, when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to work for State Farm.
	That's who my dad worked for, State Farm Insurance.
	He was super successful, made a bunch of money.
	He was a great manager.
	When he was sober, everybody loved him.
	And he would go on these, whatever, two-week drunken binges and become just a complete jerk-off.
	And it's funny, too, because he did so well for State Farm, they would sober him up, put him into a rehab for...
	Oh, wow.
	60 days, 90 days.
	And then he'd come out and then he'd be okay and he'd be good.
	We got him.
	He's good for a couple of years.
	You know, maybe it'd be six months, maybe it'd be two years.
	And so anyway, eventually, it's just it's funny because I always think somebody always asked me whenever I think about my childhood.
	I always think the one thing that he definitely taught me was that if you make enough money, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
	You can treat people the way you want.
	They will enable you, that sort of thing.
	And I think that I got that as a kid.
	So in high school, I thought I wanted to be a manager, like a state farm manager, state farm agent.
	Ended up going to college, tried to get a degree in business.
	That's no joke, bro.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So I realized right away by accounting two, which was the only C I ever got in college, I was like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do this.
	I'll never get through micro and macroeconomics.
	There's no way I'm doing this.
	So I switched it to the easiest possible...
	Fine arts.
	Fine arts.
	It's like, what is the easiest thing I can get a degree in?
	I thought, fine arts.
	I'm super creative.
	I can paint.
	I can draw.
	This is going to be easy.
	And I was.
	I did really well.
	I got basically all A's, maybe a B or two.
	And, yeah, graduated.
	What year did you graduate?
	95.
	Oh, shit.
	Holy crap.
	What gender does mostly arts in school?
	There was a bunch of chicks in there probably too, right?
	I already know.
	There was probably a bunch of girls in there as well.
	So you know what's funny about that?
	I had a girlfriend that I dated probably for three years of college.
	And this is funny.
	She was a stripper who was working her way through college.
	Really though.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	For once, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	She really was.
	She was in school.
	And she got a degree in business.
	So...
	Anyway, so, and as far as the, you know, it's liberal.
	It's the liberal arts, right?
	They're all like, you know, the women are mostly lesbians or they just hate you in general.
	And I used to wear, I don't know if you know who, you know who Rush Limbaugh is?
	Rush Limbaugh.
	Sounds familiar.
	So he's like one of the first conservative talk show hosts ever.
	This is before YouTube.
	So I used to wear a t-shirt that said Rush Limbaugh for president.
	They hated my guts.
	I drove a BMW. I mean, look at me.
	I mean, now I'm 55, but back then I was young, blonde hair, blue eyed, worked out all the time.
	They hate my guts.
	I'm everything they despise.
	Yeah, you're the wasp that they hate.
	You're the man.
	You're the oppressor.
	You're the patriarchy in their eyes.
	How dare you?
	But I still graduated.
	But, you know, wasn't, like I said...
	How dare you!
	Because of the dyslexia, I wasn't very good at...
	Wasn't great at business.
	Got laid off a few times.
	No, no, we're good.
	We're good.
	Don't worry.
	The audio thing here in our headphones...
	Mo, can we fix that, please?
	Go ahead.
	I got laid off a few times.
	Started working construction.
	You know, behind on my bills.
	And the chick I was dating was like, listen, you know, she had met some guy who owned a...
	He owned a lender, right?
	And they had a bunch of offices.
	And she said, you know, this guy, they're mortgage brokers.
	He owns a mortgage brokerage business.
	You should go to work there.
	Like, you'd be great.
	Right.
	So I went and I applied and I got the job.
	What year is this now?
	96, 97?
	No, this is probably 99.
	By the time I started, it was like 99.
	You know, I worked for those other companies.
	You work for them for a year, you get laid off.
	Work for another one a year.
	Tried construction for a couple years.
	Barely paying my bills.
	Construction sucks.
	I'm not built for construction.
	And yeah, so I start working as a mortgage broker.
	And I, you know, did very well, like right away, because basically my very first loan I started committing fraud.
	By the time I got there, keep in mind, by the time I got there, I hadn't worked in weeks.
	By the time my first loan is about to close, I haven't been paid anything in a month, a month and a half.
	Was it all commission-based?
	It was all commission-based.
	It wasn't hourly.
	I'm behind on my car, a couple months.
	My mortgage is probably three weeks, maybe a month overdue.
	Credit cards, I'm banking.
	I put everything into this.
	This has to work.
	It's that, or you move back in with my parents.
	The very first loan I had, Perfect loan.
	It's ready to close.
	And I go into my manager's office and she opens up the file and pulls one document, puts it aside, and says...
	So she closes.
	She goes, look, everything's perfect, ready to close.
	But on your verification of rent for your borrower, she was 30 days late on her rent in the last two years.
	So maybe six months ago, maybe two years ago.
	And I was like...
	What do I do?
	Like, that's a deal killer.
	It's over.
	And she pulled out a whiteout thing and went, and she goes, if I was you, I'd white it out, make a copy, stick it in the file, send it to underwriting, it'll be fine.
	And I'm like, holy shit.
	And I was like, that's fraud.
	I could go to jail.
	She goes, nobody's going to jail.
	She goes, worst that happens is they fire you.
	She goes, they're never going to find that.
	They're not going to call.
	They're not going to know that.
	She goes, it'll be fine.
	And I was like...
	So, you know, I'm desperate.
	And she was like, you don't have to do it.
	Nobody's looking for my car.
	She's doing whatever you want to do.
	And I'm like, fuck.
	So I white it out.
	It goes to underwriting.
	I sweat bullets for three, four days.
	And then they say, hey, you can close in a couple days.
	We close, whatever, four or five days later.
	I get a check for $3,500.
	You know, it was the right decision.
	Wow.
	You know what I mean?
	So, okay.
	Yeah.
	So, this is what, 1999, this happened, right?
	Yeah.
	99.
	And $3,500 back then is a lot different than now.
	That's probably, I would say, maybe $7,000 purchasing power now, right?
	Yeah, but I mean, not just, you know, yeah.
	My mortgage payment's like $500.
	My car payment is probably $300.
	But it wasn't just that.
	It was that the next guy that comes in, he's got a W-2.
	He doesn't make enough debt-to-income ratio.
	He doesn't qualify.
	He doesn't make quite enough money.
	He makes $50,000, but if he made $57,000, he can get the loan.
	Real quick for the audience, can you explain as a mortgage broker what your duty is?
	Just so they kind of understand, because some people, unless they're in real estate, they're not going to know what your job is.
	Specifically, we're talking about getting people loans and everything else for a house.
	Can you describe real quick your duty and then how you were able to finesse it?
	At that company, all of the loans went through their own lender.
	They were a lender.
	Okay.
	But it's pretty much the same anywhere you go as a mortgage broker.
	So what we did was I would go out and I would find people that were interested in buying a home.
	And so you want to get a house and maybe you don't quite qualify for Bank of America.
	You can't go to the bank.
	Yeah.
	So you come to me.
	My credit's fucked up.
	Maybe I'm behind on a payment.
	Maybe I got something in collections.
	Yeah.
	Right, right.
	You don't quite have a high enough credit score.
	Maybe you've been late in the past.
	Whatever.
	So I put together a package, and I send it through a subprime loan.
	It was a subprime loan.
	And maybe I get you 85% or 95%.
	You put down 5%.
	And, of course, I have to collect all the documents.
	make sure that your package is correct, right?
	Like you have to have verification of your rent for residency or mortgage, verification of your employment, and you have to make enough money to qualify for the loan, right?
	So you have to have a percentage of your income has to be allocated to cover that mortgage payment.
	Then also you have to have, of course, the appraisal.
	The property has to be worth it, right?
	You can't buy a property for $400,000 if the appraisal comes in and says it's only worth $300,000.
	And then, of course, the title has to be clean, but that basically is the property.
	And then the other thing is you have to have a down payment.
	This is if you're purchasing.
	If you're refinancing, it's different.
	It's based off the equity.
	Thank you.
	Thank you so much.
	W. Angie in the chat.
	Yeah, Angie, bringing us some coffee.
	Speaking of which, where's mine?
	I'm just kidding.
	It's on the way.
	It's on the way.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Angie's hooking us up.
	Sorry.
	So, yeah.
	So, sorry.
	So, we're saying...
	So, these things need to be in touch, obviously.
	Right.
	You put together a package.
	You send it to underwriting.
	Yep.
	Now, if you're a mortgage brokerage business and you are signed up with multiple lenders...
	I might take that package and I might send it to SunTrust Bank.
	I might send it to Mortgage Warehouse.
	I might send it to Household Bank and see who gives me the best rate.
	Or some of them are just going to say, hey, you can't – this doesn't fit into one of our programs.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, no, we're not interested.
	And, you know, you try and get the most yield spread back, right?
	So if your interest rate's 6% and I tell you, this is going to sound sleazy.
	So if I say, you know, the interest rate household bank quotes me, says, we can give them a loan at 6%.
	I go, oh, okay.
	And I go to you and I say, listen, I can get you 7.5.
	And you go, oh, okay, cool.
	7.5, I'll take it.
	I know you'll take it because I know you've been turned down by three other places.
	You don't have a choice.
	Well, what that does is every, let's say, and this is An exaggeration is typically like 25 or 30, but for the sake of this, every 50 or half a point, I get a point back on the loan.
	So if you borrow $200,000 and I just jacked up your rate by one and a half, which is multiple, 350% basis points, That's three points back.
	So I'd get back $6,000.
	And I'm charging you a broker fee of three or four grand.
	So I might end up making $9,000, $10,000.
	And so the first month, I closed four loans.
	Because, like I said, the guy comes in, he's got a W-2, he doesn't make enough money.
	I know he's got to make more money.
	So I changed the W-2.
	He doesn't make $50,000, now he makes $57,000.
	Guess what?
	We send it to underwriting.
	Made the requirement.
	Right.
	And I start to figure out what underwriting asks.
	All they're really asking is, does he work here?
	Has he worked here for two years?
	Did you fill out this verification of employment?
	Yes.
	Okay, thank you.
	They're not saying, how much was his last year's W-2?
	They're not asking all that.
	I've provided those documents.
	Why would they question the documents?
	You know, and I think it's really important because we've done episodes on real estate here, and it's fantastic to kind of get it from your perspective of, like, you know, what a mortgage broker is.
	And, like, you know, for the chat out there, guys, like, you want to buy a house or whatever and your credit isn't that good, you go to a mortgage broker and what he'll do is he'll shop your package around to other places to help you get a loan because not everyone has good credit, etc.
	Or let's say you maxed out your ability to get certain, you know, Fannie Mae loans or whatever, then they'll be able to help you out.
	So you were able to...
	So you were in a very...
	I guess, good position where you could get the person to loan, and these are people that don't necessarily have the best credit or the best financial background, and you're able to kind of increase interest rates, make them say that they make more money than they really do, etc.
	Yeah, they're not going anywhere else.
	Yeah, and also, that applies to cars too as well.
	Cars, buy and pay here.
	Oh yeah, were you doing car loans?
	Or were you just doing strictly home?
	No, we're just doing mortgages.
	You were just doing mortgages, right?
	Okay.
	But yeah, it's rampant.
	Dude.
	I had no idea how bad it was until, like, a friend of mine pulled up a contract that he had.
	And you're right, the points matter.
	So, if they get a higher point percentage, because they know you can't get any better rates, like, you know, we'll give you 9%.
	Alright, bro, can't get any annuals, I'll take it.
	And then, they get money back?
	Yeah.
	W, for them.
	But for the person buying it, it sucks.
	Yeah, and that's why a lot of times they want to do the financing themselves, you know?
	It helps finance them.
	Right, it helps them make additional money, right?
	You buy your car for $50,000, you might make an extra $1,500, $2,500, because you can really jack up the rate.
	So anyway, what ends up happening is I worked at that company for maybe six months.
	So you close that first loan, you get that first taste.
	$3,500?
	Yeah, it's four loans the first month, then it's four, then it's six, then it's eight, then it's ten, then it's twelve.
	How much did you make that first month?
	I probably made...
	I made not that much because they took 30%.
	So I probably made...
	9 or 10, right?
	Because it's not always $3,500 and you don't always get to bump the rate, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So it's not at that company.
	But when I went and I started my own company, because keep in mind, you might get one point from them and they are getting two because they're the lender.
	And can you explain to the audience real quick what points are?
	Yeah, points are like if it's 1% of the loan amount.
	Okay.
	So if I jack up your interest rate by 50 basis points, like half of the rate or half the...
	I get one point back.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So, but keep in mind, they're the ones who are really getting most of that at the lender.
	But when I went and opened up my own company, now I'm getting all three points or two points or five points.
	Some of these places are doing five points.
	So now we're getting that.
	And then I went out immediately.
	I hired a bunch of mortgage brokers.
	When did you leave and start your own?
	So you did your first month four loans, you made like 10K, which is like 20, 30K nowadays, right?
	That's a lot of money back in 99.
	So you did that for a bit, and then how long until you left?
	Six to eight months.
	Okay, so you're only there.
	How many companies nowadays Might have been a year, but go ahead.
	Do that right now, you'd say?
	A lot of them?
	So the, I want to say, is it the Dodd-Frank Act was passed, and they've limited the amount of points you can get back and how much the rates are.
	They've changed a lot of little, they've tweaked a lot of little things, so you don't have quite as much of an incentive.
	And they also track anybody who originates alone.
	Where I'm originating a loan and everything's closing in the lender's name, like they don't even know who I am.
	But now you have your numbers attached.
	So if they say, hey, this guy's done 100 loans this year and 40 of them went under, like it's fraud and he's all over, like they'd immediately jump on you and investigate you.
	But back then they have no idea who's closing these loans.
	I think it's important for the audience to know this is before 2008, guys.
	Yes.
	This is when you can get a loan for literally anything.
	This is before the housing crash.
	So this was like a fantastic time to go ahead and be in this business.
	So you do that for about a year.
	You're working with this company.
	You're making 8, 10K a month.
	And then you're like, no, I can do this myself.
	I can make more money.
	Yeah, they actually had an issue with their credit line.
	So it was a combination of the two.
	Like, one, they're having problems.
	And I was like, you know what?
	I'm done.
	Like, I've got a bunch of people that want loans.
	I'm gonna go start my own company.
	So I started my own company.
	Because I really didn't want to own my own company.
	Like, I wasn't thinking.
	I was making great money.
	I'm thrilled.
	The girl, the chick I was dating, we're not dating anymore.
	She actually started dating the owner of the company.
	He divorced his wife.
	He had three kids.
	Three boys and a wife.
	He divorced her and ended up marrying...
	Your chick.
	My chick.
	Her name was Chrissy.
	And then they ended up having a baby.
	And so, from her perspective, it's romantic.
	She puts you on.
	Yeah, from my perspective, you know, she's a whore.
	But the point is, regardless, it's good for her.
	It's a romance.
	How dare you!
	I'm excited for it.
	And they're still together to this day, so to be honest, she made the right call.
	Oh yeah, to this day, she made the right call.
	And he's a nice guy.
	He's a good guy.
	I'm sure his ex-wife doesn't think so, but that's either way.
	I'm sure Chrissy, they're very happy.
	So the point is that I start my own place.
	I hire a bunch of guys.
	I hire like 10 or 12 guys, and pretty much anybody can be a mortgage broker.
	I got guys who are – I got a guy who's literally worked for PestX for two years, and he quit there and came to work.
	I got another guy that – Because you had all the contacts with the lenders, right?
	And keep in mind, you don't have to be all that good.
	You just get people that want to buy houses.
	If they have a pulse, I'm going to make sure they get a loan.
	Boom.
	I'm going to make their W2. At this point, it's graduated from, I'm going to change a 7, or I'm going to do this, and I'm going to be scared the whole time, to just, I don't give a fuck.
	You come in, does he have a job?
	No, he doesn't have a job.
	He works for himself.
	He washes cars.
	That's fine.
	Here's what I'm going to do.
	I'm going to make W2. I'm going to make...
	1040s.
	I'm going to go get this chick.
	I had a chick that would make 1040s for it.
	He still washes cars, but I'm going to get a year-to-date profit loss.
	I'm going to get two years taxes done.
	She charged me like $25, and then we'd go in, and you'd go to a company that didn't file, let's say it's called a 4506.
	So you find a company that's not going to file a 4506, so they're not going to pull the taxes from the IRS.
	They're just going to accept what he has.
	If he has over a certain score, there's lots of programs.
	So you're like, hey, we can do this with this guy.
	Don't worry.
	I'll call so-and-so.
	He needs to make about $85,000.
	Do the write-offs, everything, or this person doesn't make enough money, or this person has a W-2 job, but they don't claim taxes.
	That's okay.
	I'm going to have him work for my company.
	And I would have had four or five companies and cell phones.
	Like, I had a credenza.
	It's got all these cell phones on it.
	So if somebody called to verify your employment, I'd just answer the phone, you know, hey, Express Tax Service.
	Oh, wow.
	And they'd be, you know, hey, I'm calling, you know, about, you know, Byron.
	Does he work there?
	Actually...
	He does work here, and he's not here right now, and they're like, oh, no, no, no, no.
	We're just calling to verify he works there.
	Has he been there five years?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	I filled out a verification of employment for you, right?
	He's getting the house, right?
	And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	No, he's good.
	He's good.
	Oh, okay.
	Do you need anything else?
	You need me to fax it?
	No, no, that's fine.
	They, oh, okay, thanks.
	Click.
	We're done.
	We're done.
	So, you know, you got W2s, pay stubs, and I just verified your employment.
	And then, of course, they got other checks, right?
	Like they would check to say, hey, the tax ID number on this W2, is it a real company?
	Of course it's a real company.
	I have a real company.
	You know, has it been in business for five years?
	Of course it has.
	I just paid up.
	A company that had been inactive.
	And after three years, in Florida, you can catch up the dues, like the fees, the yearly fees.
	You catch up the yearly fees, and now the company's active again.
	I can put anybody's name.
	It looks like it's been active for the last five years.
	Age corporations?
	Yeah, they call them shelf corporations, right?
	There you go.
	So I would have those, so you can call.
	I got to a point where I would, not only would I do that, but I would make a website for it.
	Wow.
	And there used to be something called the business directory, right?
	I could add the phone numbers to the business directory.
	Like, it doesn't matter if I spend $500 or $1,000 or $1,500 on this fake corporation for you because I'm going to use it for you and him and Jimmy and Todd.
	Like, I'll be using this thing.
	If I have five of them, and it was the same thing with banks, I got to a point where it's like a lot of times the lenders would say, look, this person doesn't have a great credit.
	So they've been on their job, but they don't have great credit.
	And the issue with them is that we're afraid they're not going to be able to make the payment if something goes wrong.
	They barely have enough money to pay the down payment.
	And they would say, we really want them to have reserves, like six months worth of reserves, which means if they lost their job, they could still make all the payments.
	And then they're like, so I'm sorry, we're going to turn it down.
	They would say, we're sorry, I'm going to turn it down.
	I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
	What do you mean?
	He's got like 30 grand in the bank.
	What are you talking about?
	And they go, Matt, he's got like $8,000.
	I go, what account do you have?
	And they go, oh, Bank of America.
	And I go, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
	Oh, I didn't send you Ybor, Bank of Ybor.
	And they go, yeah.
	I go, yeah, yeah, no, Bank of Ebor.
	I can get you three months bank statements right now.
	And I'll send him over.
	He's got over 30 grand.
	We didn't send you that.
	The processor didn't send you it.
	Tracy!
	You know.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Morgan!
	Yeah, they'd be like.
	Write it up.
	Right.
	And I'll fax him over right now.
	And, of course, there is no Bank of Ebor.
	It's actually just a website that I made.
	But you could call.
	It had a phone number.
	Somebody would answer.
	Yeah.
	And I even had bank statements.
	So I had bank statements for that one.
	I had another one called Express Tax Services.
	No, not Express.
	What am I saying?
	It was a...
	Southern Exchange Bank.
	That's what it was called.
	Southern Exchange Bank.
	And that was a real bank that had closed.
	So I did Southern Exchange Bank of Clarksville.com because I couldn't get the website because it had actually been bought out by like SunTrust or somebody anyway.
	So I used that, right?
	And I had a website.
	I built a website for that.
	And so I had multiple banks.
	So I can verify your down payment.
	I can verify your reserves.
	I can verify employment.
	I can verify anything I want.
	And so that was working out great.
	Like, I was making a bunch of money.
	This is crazy.
	It went from, like, you just winding out a thing, right, to, you know, he makes, what was the first one again?
	And when you winded it out, it was to, so how much money they made?
	Oh, no, no, they weren't late on rent.
	Yeah.
	It went from that to creating all these different infrastructures to substantiate someone who's unqualified to make them qualified.
	You make this much money.
	You even went to the extent to have them have bank accounts.
	So if you're breathing, you can get a loan.
	Yeah, that's what I used to say.
	Guys would come in, they'd be like, bro, if somebody's got a pulse...
	You know, we can get them on.
	I'd be like, absolutely.
	They had all these things just set up in the background to make sure that they...
	What was your clothes rate at this point?
	90s?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, everybody that walks in, they want to buy a house.
	I mean, they still had to have...
	Not always, but if it was somebody off the street, like, you've got to have your down payment.
	You know?
	Like, we're not just...
	You know, we're pulling homeless people off the street and giving them...
	You know, they have to be...
	Like, if somebody came in and they...
	You know, they've been evicted four times.
	They don't have a down payment.
	They...
	They're on Social Security disability.
	It's like, you can't pay a mortgage.
	I can't.
	I'm sorry.
	But if it was someone who was reasonably having some issues and we thought they'll probably be okay, which is, by the way, not the underwriting standard, but for us it's like, Yeah, they'll probably make a few payments.
	We'll be good.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah.
	In the car industry, they get very creative.
	They actually give you, like, months to pay the deposit.
	So they'll give you, like, three, four, five months to pay the full down payment, and then you still get the car up front.
	What the fuck?
	They get very creative.
	That's great.
	Yeah, that's that.
	Because now I got the car.
	What if I don't make the payments?
	Well, see, the thing is, with a car, you can take it back very quickly.
	Take it back, yeah.
	With a house, if I put up any fight at all, it could be six months, a year.
	Most of these people don't though.
	If you have somebody in a lower income area back then, they didn't pay and they start the legal process and these people aren't capable of fighting a foreclosure.
	So they just lose the house in 90 days, 120 days.
	So Matt, who taught you all these tips and tricks?
	Because I feel like to know this stuff, you've got to know the weeds of the whole industry.
	Well, I mean, you keep getting caught.
	I would get caught.
	And the nice thing about being in my position is that if somebody got caught at that time, you got caught.
	Eddie Lafuente did what?
	So if I get the phone call, I go, let me get him in here.
	Eddie, what did you do, bro?
	I got this underwriter calling.
	I got the head of this bank calling.
	And he's sitting there like, motherfucker, you know what?
	Shut up.
	And then you say, well, how did you catch this?
	Well, one of our ways are the ways that we, you know, catch, you know, or we look into whatever it is, you know, bank statements or this or that, and then they tell you and you're like...
	Thank you, brother.
	Next time we got it, it's got to be a real tax ID number.
	Okay.
	You know, next time it has to be this.
	Next time...
	So you just make that alteration.
	It gets to that point where you're like...
	You're 100% positive.
	The underwriter would make these complaints.
	And then you would say, what was it specifically?
	You'd bring that person in, fake yell at them.
	Oh, that's genius.
	Yeah, you yell at them a little bit.
	And then you just say, don't send anything to the mortgage warehouse again.
	Like, wait six months before you send anything because they think you're fired.
	They're like, cool, bro.
	No problem.
	Listen, man.
	This is funny because I got family from Nigeria, so seeing these scams is hilarious.
	Yeah, so this is interesting because it's like, you know, obviously, you know, there's this old saying, you know, you can't lie once, right?
	You have to lie multiple times.
	So like, you would, you know, obviously get them the loan, but then you find out, okay, you don't qualify for this or no, I got to get this now.
	So like, you pretty much had it where you had bank statements, you had jobs, you were verifying their employment, you were doing all this stuff.
	So you do this for the, how many years did you do this for before you got caught the first time?
	I probably did that for...
	99, we started the company?
	Yeah, probably a couple years, and then what happened was, the way I got caught was, so I usually don't even mention this part, just because it's irrelevant, but remember the chick that had me white out the thing?
	Yes.
	Okay, so that company had gone under.
	Okay.
	And she came to work for me.
	Oh, shit!
	Right, so now, and listen, what a bitch.
	Like, I mean, just a horrible person.
	Was she impressed by how you just came up off her little whiteout chick?
	She's like, you owe me, buddy!
	Matt, you owe me!
	I mean, listen, she was an amazing closer.
	I mean, like, she was cranking them out.
	And so she came to work for me for a couple months, and then she and her husband went and opened their own place.
	Ooh.
	And so it was called Creative Mortgage Brokers.
	Fantastic name.
	Yeah.
	Perfect, right?
	No red flags there.
	So she opened her own place.
	And here's the thing.
	I had gotten married.
	And so I got married.
	What year is this now?
	2000?
	Yeah, I'd say 2000.
	Probably just 2000, 2001, let's say.
	Because there's so many things happening at the same time, right?
	Pre-9-11?
	Yeah.
	Pre-9-11?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	No, no, no, definitely.
	Okay, okay, okay.
	Yeah.
	So, I date this chick.
	She gets pregnant immediately.
	We get married.
	And she's like, well, I want to stay home with the baby.
	And I'm like, yeah, it's not going to happen.
	I'm like, you're going to have to, you know, I'm going to buy a bunch of rental properties.
	You can collect rent.
	Then you can raise the baby.
	That's fine.
	But you're not sitting home, you know?
	So, we're going to...
	Buy a bunch of rental properties.
	So within a year, I've got about a million and a half, maybe $2 million worth of real estate that she owns.
	I mean, we both own it.
	And she's collecting rent.
	She's renting them out, collecting rent.
	She's basically a property manager.
	She is, absolutely.
	Opened a property management company, everything.
	Obviously, she's not a real estate broker because she owns them.
	If you own the property, you can open a management company.
	You're managing your own property.
	So, also, she could verify people's employment.
	I mean, people's, verify people's rent.
	Yeah.
	So, if you own a property management company, I remember it's called Utopian Properties.
	So, if I need to verify your rent, they rent from her, and they could call a- Oh, so people that would borrow from you, you'd have them basically be one of your tenants.
	If I have to.
	Is this Friday web?
	He's the one controlling the web.
	Yeah, it gets worse and worse.
	So, but what happens is the Gretchen, Gretchen and Pete, which is the manager and her husband open a place.
	This is the white out lady, right?
	White out lady.
	And she ends up...
	The devil.
	They end up...
	What do they do?
	They end up running what's called the straw man scam.
	So they had a couple of Italian guys that came in and bought a bunch of million-dollar properties that were probably selling for $500,000 or $600,000, but they could get them appraised for a million.
	So they get a loan for a million, pull out $300,000, $400,000 on like four or five properties, and take the money and run.
	They never make one payment, which is just completely stupid.
	Like, if you'd made four or five payments, you'd have been fine.
	But instead, these are first payment defaults.
	So immediately, the bank says, You're a good risk.
	We just lent you a million dollars.
	You didn't make one payment?
	Something's wrong.
	So they investigate.
	Had you made three payments and said, man, my business went under.
	I can't pay.
	That's reasonable.
	That happens.
	But no, just idiots.
	Mob guys?
	I think so.
	I mean, I always thought so, you know.
	So they basically, okay, so they went ahead, got a bunch of houses appraised, way over appraised, do cash out refinances, pull the money out, and they just never paid the loan back.
	Or maybe even, I think some of them were even just direct purchases.
	So the owner is in on it, possibly, right?
	So you only want 700,000, I buy it for a million, you cut me a check back for 300,000.
	Maybe you don't even cut it back.
	Maybe we just have part of the proceeds go directly to a construction company, right?
	Like I did that all the time.
	Where I'll get you money out at closing, you'll walk away with 40 grand.
	You bring 10, you'll walk away with 40.
	So, and it goes to a construction company, and then I cut the check back to you.
	So, that I own.
	And you would do that for people that wanted to...
	So you didn't just do loans, you did refinances as well.
	Oh yeah, we did refis, we did everything.
	And we were an FHA approved lender, VA approved subprime.
	Oh shit, FHA too?
	FHA and?
	Yeah, we were...
	Wow.
	Listen, from the outside, it looked extremely...
	No wonder the fence went after you.
	It looked extremely legit.
	Yeah.
	You know, from the outside.
	Yeah.
	You practically thought you were walking into a bank.
	Everybody looks good.
	It's dirty as hell.
	Do you ever feel any remorse at all?
	No.
	I have, yeah.
	I'm not saying I'm 100%.
	You're ripping off the banks.
	Yeah, and I'm not saying I'm 100% sociopath, but I'm definitely on the sociopathic scale.
	I have very little empathy.
	And then there are some things I have extreme empathy for.
	If we talk about my mom, I'll cry like that.
	If we talk about my ex-wife to a certain – or I'm sorry, not my ex-wife, to my wife, about my wife, like that.
	Talk about my son, boom, immediately.
	But you could talk about people, other people, and I have virtually – I don't know this person.
	I don't care about this person.
	This person means nothing to me.
	It's horrible.
	It just comes along with being just narcissistic.
	So anyway, what ends up happening is they end up running a scam.
	Okay, why not lady and her husband?
	Yes, the feds come in.
	So they have their own business.
	So did she work for you at this point?
	No, no, she started her own business.
	She came for a few months until she made some money, and then she goes and opens her own place.
	Okay, so she worked for you first, then she went and started her own business.
	Yes.
	Creative lending.
	Yeah, creative mortgage brokers.
	So the FBI comes in.
	Now, here's the thing.
	Remember all the properties that I had bought or my ex-wife had bought?
	Yeah.
	And she got loans on.
	She can't get those loans in my company because It's not an arm's length transaction.
	So I sent her to Gretchen's company.
	So when the feds come in and grab her files or whatever they do, first of all, she comes to me immediately and says, can you get me $75,000 to pay an attorney?
	She goes, can you refinance my house?
	I said, yeah, of course.
	You know, I want to help her.
	Like I, you know, I don't know how things work by this point.
	This is Gretchenette came to you.
	Whiteout woman.
	Whiteout woman.
	So she, she wants.
	And you didn't know that she got, or the feds came after her.
	No, I didn't know.
	I did know.
	I felt horrible.
	Like, oh my gosh, what happened?
	And she tells me what happened.
	You know, these guys, they came in and yeah, I knew the loans were fraudulent, but I was making like, she made like, she was making like 20 and $30,000 broker fees on these things.
	I'm like, you knew it.
	She's like, well, I assume they'd at least make some payments.
	Like I didn't know they were fucking.
	Oh, because she was giving loans to these Italians.
	Yes.
	There you go.
	Okay.
	That's the straw man scam, right?
	Yeah.
	Because they're straw men.
	They're not really buying it to be real people.
	They're fake people.
	We're not even fake people.
	It's a real person.
	But you're not really going to make the payment.
	Gotcha.
	You're just someone to stand there and get a loan and then leave.
	Now I understand.
	Okay.
	So she just gave a bunch of loans out to these potentially mob guys that were just buying these houses, overinflated, taking out cash out refinances, running, not making any payments.
	Obviously, yeah, that's going to get on the Fed's radar immediately.
	What the fuck?
	And she did a bunch of these loans.
	Okay.
	They come in.
	They grab her.
	She comes to me, can you refinance my house, get me $75,000?
	She's like, you know, they've seized bank account, they're freezing stuff, and I'm like, yeah.
	I'm like, of course.
	What's so funny is my ex-wife, her name is Kayla, she had had family members that had been arrested and gone to jail.
	And the first thing she said to me was, stop talking to them.
	And I went, why?
	She goes, they're going to cooperate against you to try and get time knocked off their sentence.
	And I went, what are you talking about?
	This is a foreign concept of mine.
	We went to Puerto Rico with them.
	We babysit each other's kids.
	She's not going to fucking tell on me.
	And she's like, okay, I'm just telling you.
	I'm telling you right now.
	And I was like...
	Listen, if I had listened to my ex-wife, every single thing she ever told me was right, came right.
	Every single time, you're going to get in trouble for that.
	You're going to just watch.
	You're going to get in trouble.
	They're going to come get you.
	And I'm like, you don't know anything.
	Even after this happens.
	So, you know.
	I can feel her shoes.
	Myron.
	What?
	What are you talking about?
	Nothing.
	Go ahead.
	I'm lost.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, yeah.
	So, sorry.
	So, I don't know what to call her.
	Okay.
	So, 75K. She wants to cash out a refund.
	Right.
	So I go, okay, no problem.
	I'm like, okay, well, wait a minute.
	You don't qualify for it.
	You don't have a business at this point.
	And she said, no, it's okay.
	She's like, I'll provide W-2s, pay stubs, the whole thing to verify this and that.
	And I was like, all right, no problem.
	She provides them for me.
	They verify their own employment.
	The whole thing, it goes through, no problem.
	Get them 75 grand.
	They pay their attorney, this high-priced attorney.
	He immediately says, you need to cooperate against this guy.
	The lawyer you got the money for them to hire says, go cooperate against Matt.
	This is a good guy to cooperate against.
	This guy's doing bad stuff.
	So she works with the FBI. So one day I get a phone call from her and she says, hey, can you meet me for lunch?
	And I was like, yeah, meet me at the pizza place.
	Because I said, I didn't want her coming in my office because at this point, everybody in the office, she would call and somebody would pick it up and be like, hey, Gretchen's on line three.
	And then they would all go, whoop, whoop.
	They start making noises and I'd be like, cut the shit.
	Like I feel bad for her, right?
	Like that's back when I was probably a more decent person.
	So I end up going to a pizza place.
	I meet her and her husband.
	She sits down and she says, listen, when the FBI came in, they grabbed a bunch of our files.
	And I'm like, they did?
	And she's like, yeah.
	And they grabbed a bunch of Kayla's files.
	That's my ex-wife.
	And I'm like, what?
	And she goes, yeah.
	She said, they're asking a lot of questions about her and you.
	I go, oh my god.
	I go, you didn't tell them we were married, did you?
	Because she had bought them all in her maiden name.
	And then I, all the properties.
	And I went, oh, I said, you didn't tell them the W-2s and pay stubs were fake, did you?
	Like, I just buried myself.
	And literally, like, I remember thinking, like, and this probably meant nothing.
	She was probably wired.
	Were they recording?
	Well, yeah, it's funny, too, because both of them had, like, placed their cell phones next to me.
	Now, maybe it wasn't in the cell phone.
	What year is this now, are we talking?
	This is 2001, 2002?
	Probably 2001.
	Okay.
	And it may have meant nothing, but I remember immediately looking down at the cell phones thinking, ah, shit.
	Because as I'm starting to talk, well, as I was starting to talk, I said, you know, you didn't tell them this, you didn't tell them this, you didn't tell them this.
	And then I said, okay, listen, here's what you do.
	Tell them that you never met her in person.
	Like, I start trying to come up with a way to explain it away so they can't be held liable.
	They've never met her.
	And if nobody talks, it might go away.
	That's my best bet, right?
	So I immediately come up with this.
	And as I'm telling her that, she says, Matt, we can't lie to the FBI. I'm like, what are you talking about?
	You've been lying to the FBI. I started to go into the refi, and Pete stands up and he goes, we've never lied to the FBI. We might not have told them everything, but we've never lied.
	And I was like...
	You know what I'm saying?
	That's a little...
	What an APC. That's a little...
	Yeah.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Here's the thing.
	Well, it's like I'm like, who are you talking to?
	In a fucking big-ass pizza restaurant.
	What the fuck?
	But first of all, who are you selling this to?
	Because I know you lied.
	Yeah.
	So you're not saying it for my benefit.
	So I'm looking and I'm like...
	And I immediately think, oh, fuck.
	Kelly was right.
	That's when it hits you, right?
	Yeah, and that's when I see the cell phones and I'm like, oh.
	And I did.
	I looked right at Gretchen and I said...
	I said, man, I hope you get something for this.
	And she starts crying immediately, and she says, Matt, we don't have to go to jail.
	She goes, I have a kid.
	I said, I don't have a kid?
	And she goes, and she's like, I'm sorry, Matt, I'm sorry.
	And she just starts crying.
	I said, listen, I said, tell the FBI not to come to my office, because when they went to her office, everybody quit.
	Oh.
	Because they know what they're doing.
	So I said, just tell them to call me.
	So she goes, I'm so sorry, man.
	I just get up and I walk out.
	So like 20 minutes later, I get back to the office and the FBI agent calls.
	I'll never forget.
	His name was Agent Scott Gale.
	I only remember that because we lived on a...
	This is in Tampa or where are you at at this point?
	I'm in Tampa.
	You're in Tampa, okay.
	So anyway, he says, will you come downtown?
	He said, I think you know what this is about.
	And I'm like, yeah, I do know what it's about.
	You have a big office in Tampa.
	I said, I scheduled it for like a Tuesday.
	And then...
	Yeah, I'm good.
	What was going through your head at this time?
	Like, when is this happening with the call?
	Wait, do you want another coffee, Matt?
	No, no, I'm good.
	Okay, okay.
	Thank you.
	No, what was happening was, you know, I know I'm in trouble.
	Like, but I don't really know what they know.
	I'm not really sure.
	When he stood up, you knew they were recording.
	Oh, I knew.
	I knew, yeah.
	Once he stood up and said that stupid, like, what the fuck, bro?
	And then the FBI calls me.
	Like, so if I was questioning it, They confirmed it.
	That same day, did they call you?
	Oh, within 20 minutes.
	Oh, wow.
	They didn't even pretend.
	They had you on surveillance.
	Yeah, they had you on surveillance.
	By the way.
	They called you when they knew you were back at the office.
	It's like a movie, bro.
	Yeah.
	So, you know, what's even funnier about that is that I later realized there was a guy, the FBI agent was in there with me, right?
	Really?
	Yeah, well, you know, they can't really wire you and, you know, what if I attack them?
	Like, they have to kind of be close.
	But I think he was actually there.
	And I'll never forget...
	Yeah, 100%.
	You're on surveillance like that, because what probably ended up happening is they're cooperating defendants, so they had them wired up, and then you have an agent in there as well.
	What's funny is, there was a guy, when I'm talking to Pete, there was a guy behind him who had a slice of pizza, and you know how they put the napkin underneath the pizza, and they fold it?
	He was eating the pizza, and he was eating the napkin!
	And I go, hey, hey, bro.
	Hey, hey, hey.
	And so Pete's like, the two of them were panicked, right?
	And then the guy's like not looking.
	And then finally he looks up and he's like, yeah.
	And I go, you're eating your napkin, bro.
	And he goes, what?
	I said, your napkin.
	He goes...
	Oh.
	And then I remember Pete and Gretchen, they start laughing too, and they're like, because, you know, like, oh my god, this motherfucker just is yelling at the FBI agent, and, you know, you know what I'm saying?
	They're like, but they were so nervous, and I was like, okay, so what are we doing?
	Like, and then they start telling me the whole thing about the FBI. But I realized later, that had to be him.
	Their reaction, the whole thing, like, that had to be the guy.
	Wow.
	Anyway, the point is, is that I end up going and getting an attorney, and I pay him $75,000.
	Apparently that's the going rate.
	You need an extraction team just for the audience so they understand what the hell.
	Whenever you have like a cooperative defendant or an informant or even an undercover agent and they're doing an operation like that, you need something called an extraction team.
	So you want someone on the premise.
	So if something did go bad, he pulls out a gun or something like that.
	They're able to kind of intervene and pull the sources out.
	You never know.
	I mean, I'm not.
	Not him, but that's a standard procedure.
	So just for the audience knows.
	You need a movie, man.
	This is a good story.
	I'm working on it.
	This is nothing, bro.
	This is a joke so far.
	This is nothing.
	I'll get into other stuff.
	I'm sorry.
	I'll do this real quick.
	So what ends up happening, like I'm literally on 5% into the story, so I'm going to speed it up a little bit.
	So what happens is I hire an attorney, and I had mentioned this to you earlier.
	Oh yeah, you went into the office.
	Because the agent, Gail, right?
	He calls you and says, hey, we need you to come to office.
	Yeah, but I don't go.
	I don't go.
	Oh, you didn't show.
	No, fuck no.
	I go get an attorney.
	The attorney calls us.
	He's not coming in.
	Okay.
	I pay my attorney $75,000.
	He arranges for me not to even talk to him, right?
	You have to do a proffer, right?
	But he proffers for me.
	First of all, when he first comes in, he said, my attorney's like, look, they said there's half a million dollars in a loss on all these properties.
	And keep in mind, They only know about, they only have two or three of the properties.
	That your wife got?
	That my wife got.
	And she's got probably eight or 10, but we only did like two or three with Gretchen.
	And some of those were rehabs where we bought it, renovated it, rented out, and then sold it.
	Okay.
	So we're flipping them.
	So they got the price point of the home before you rehabbed it, which is less.
	Yeah, they think that we jacked up the appraisals, but really we bought it for $80,000, put $100,000 in it, got it appraised at $250,000, and sold it, and refinanced it at $250,000.
	But they're thinking you got a $200,000 loan on a house that's worth $80,000.
	And that's not true.
	Or you pulled out the money, used that money to renovate it, but that's not true.
	I had the money.
	So we're arguing there's no potential loss, there's no loss, none of that's true.
	I never borrowed more than what the house was worth at the time, so I'm explaining those to me.
	That's what they were thinking.
	That's what they were thinking.
	Because Gretchen's loans before is what she did.
	And Gretchen doesn't really know what I'm doing.
	So anyway, the point is that my attorney goes back to them, and he explains it, and they come back and they say, you're right, there's no loss, and there's no potential loss.
	And in fact, I had already sold like two of the properties.
	There's only like one or two left to be sold, and we had contracts because these are flips, some of these.
	Now, the other ones I had closed at other places like credit unions and things with better interest rates, and so I don't have to go to Gretchen.
	So the point is that… As we're talking, my attorney comes to me and he says, listen, there's no dollar loss, and you haven't been indicted yet.
	And he goes, I can keep you from being indicted.
	He said, we can do a pretrial intervention.
	And I went, okay, what's that?
	He said, you have no criminal record, and there's no dollar loss.
	He said, if you go to your mortgage company, He said, because the FBI was told by Gretchen that I was running a mill, right?
	Like I'm just cranking out bad loans.
	And if you go in there, grab 10 files of your most egregious frauds for your mortgage brokers and bring them in and work with the FBI, then I can keep you from being indicted.
	So give them ten people.
	It would have been five or six, but yeah.
	Give them five or six people, and then they'll indict them, and you just work with the FBI against them.
	Put it together for them.
	And so you give them them, and you walk away.
	And I went, this is so stupid.
	Because I was like, I'm not doing that.
	Like, I'm not gonna fucking rat out my friends.
	These are my employees.
	These are guys.
	These are my buddies.
	These are my, you know, not knowing at the time that they all cooperated against me and later did.
	Wow.
	So I could have, you know, I look back, if I look back, and I really almost never look back, by the way, if I ever look back at anything, there's only one or two events, and that was one of them, because my lawyer really He really tried to convince me.
	And I was just like, you know, I looked, I was just like disgusted that he would even suggest it.
	If that same thing had happened now, I would have shown up there with a dolly.
	And I would have scooped up the file cabinets in front of everybody in the morning meeting.
	And I would have said, you fuckers better go get some fucking attorneys.
	You're going to have some shit about to go down.
	And I would have walked right out in front of all of them because it wasn't worth it.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Like I'm not a gangster.
	I thought I was a gangster, but I realized that there weren't any.
	So I say no.
	I take the charge.
	They drop everything against my wife.
	I say she didn't know anything.
	They don't really believe that, but they just want somebody.
	And they're like, look, if you – I'm like I orchestrated the whole thing.
	She didn't have a clue what was going on.
	So you did end up getting indicted.
	Yeah, I did.
	Well, I didn't get indicted.
	You got hit with information, probably?
	Yeah, you just sign off on the indictment.
	You don't have to indict me.
	You agree to not be indicted.
	You just agree to take the charge.
	So they gave you an information then, probably.
	So I do it.
	I get charged with wire fraud.
	I get three years probation.
	Chad, wire information is when the AUSA basically charges you formally, but without a grand jury.
	So a lot of times that happens when you cooperate or you come forward.
	Typically, you get a better sentence when you do that.
	So yes, you got hit with an information from the AUSA. You think Dede's going to do that?
	No, they're going to probably indict him.
	Oh, sure.
	I think they're probably going to indict him, yeah.
	Yeah, and then he's going to fight it and probably go to prison.
	Yeah, I think what he's going to do, he's going to get indicted and then he's going to fight for not to be released and not to be on bond because he's like telling his...
	Right now, his lawyers are telling HSI everything that he's doing because I think he knows he's going to get indicted.
	They've been convening the grand jury for him.
	So the mantra of, if you have money, you can do whatever you want, isn't really all the way true, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	No, no.
	I mean, if you're doomed, you're doomed, you know?
	But it does help.
	But, I mean, let's face it.
	Even in this situation, I could have walked away.
	Yeah.
	That's not a deal for anybody.
	Like, a public defender is not going to get you that deal.
	Hell no.
	That's a paid attorney who's saying, look, I'll go.
	Because when you cooperate, he's got to go sit in on all those meetings.
	You know what I'm saying?
	He has to do a bunch.
	It takes a lot more on his part.
	Yeah.
	Most of them just want you to plead guilty.
	That's easy for them.
	Okay, so your wife divorces you during all this time.
	Even though you just protected her from getting indicted.
	But she warned you, though.
	Yeah, she did warn me.
	We had a difference in opinion on our marriage.
	She was insistent that I not sleep with other people.
	I felt that that was something that was acceptable.
	Yeah!
	And she was adamant about it, no matter how many discussions we had.
	So she divorces me.
	I think, whatever.
	She got all the rental properties, like 100 grand.
	I'm paying a couple thousand dollars a month in child support.
	It's outrageous.
	My minimum bills are like $8,000 or $9,000 a month.
	But no jail time.
	No, no.
	Just probation.
	Yeah, probation.
	How long were you on probation for?
	If I had completed it, three years.
	So what ends up happening is I end up selling my mortgage company to a guy who's a CPA, and he pays me...
	Seven or eight?
	No, $8,000 a month, I think.
	So he's paying me eight grand a month, and then I turn around and I open a development company.
	And what I decide I'm going to do is I'm going to start flipping houses, right?
	I'm just going to start buying houses in Ybor City.
	It's a part of Tampa.
	I don't know if you've ever been there.
	So it's just outside of downtown.
	There's old cigar shops.
	It's really like a nicer version of probably 7th Avenue.
	I'm sorry, of Bourbon Street.
	Okay.
	So super nice or super interesting, that kind of old red brick and red brick roads and warehouses and stuff.
	So I go out there.
	I start buying houses.
	And what I decide I'm going to do is I want to buy houses, fix them up, and sell them.
	And back then...
	This is where we at now.
	Are we in 2002 or 2003?
	This is probably 2001.
	Still?
	Okay, alright.
	2001.
	So in 2001, and I'll speed through it.
	No, no, you're good.
	Because in 2001, what I do is I decide I'm going to buy houses for like $50,000.
	Because you could buy like a crack house for 50 grand.
	You could dump 25 in it and probably sell it for 100.
	Yeah.
	And you'd make $25,000, right?
	You never do make $25,000, but it sounds good.
	Whatever.
	It's close, right?
	And so what I realized was the problem with buying in a lower middle class area, and keep in mind this is 20 years ago.
	So those same houses that look just as she are all selling for $300,000, $400,000 and need work.
	So anyway, so I say, I'm going to go and I'm going to buy these houses.
	And I went, do you know what I'm going to do?
	But I'm going to buy them, fix them up, and sell them.
	But who's going to buy in this area?
	Like lower middle class people, they have credit problems.
	They have credit problems.
	They can't come up with their down payments.
	You know, so I'm going to have to come up with people's down payments.
	You start thinking about it, it's like, God, this is going to be a real hassle.
	So then I go, okay, you know what I'm going to do is...
	You know what I'll do is I'll buy those houses, and you don't make any money.
	To deal with that, you don't make any money.
	So I was like, how can I get these houses to appraise higher than the $100,000 they're worth?
	And so I happened to be dating a chick from a title company, and I go and I explain my situation to her, and I say, I want these things to appraise at like $200,000.
	And she goes, well, if you pay the extra doc stamps on the deed, then the sale will show up higher.
	And I went, okay, so for instance, right now if you buy a house for $100,000, you pay $700 in doc stamps.
	Now, if you buy for $100,000, you go to record the sale in public records, what if you give them $1,400?
	It automatically shows up as a $200,000 sale.
	So I'm buying these properties for $50,000, let's say.
	So a $50,000 property, I'm spending $350 in Dox Amps, right?
	So if you just go ahead and give them an extra $1,050, Now the sale's going to show up at $200,000.
	That's a crack house.
	It's horrible, right?
	Holy shit.
	So I thought, that's great.
	That's what I'll do.
	If I do enough of these, the whole area will come up.
	If I stay within a mile and buy them right away, then the whole area will come up.
	Because for the audience, real quick, guys, in residential real estate, comparables is how the properties are evaluated.
	So if you have a house here that's $100,000, then another one here, $100,000, then another one here, the fourth house is going to be $100,000 because that's how they evaluate.
	So if you buy a bunch in an area, You're bringing up the value of all the homes in the area because of the comparables.
	Or if you buy a house for $100,000 and all the houses around it are going for $200,000 and you go to sell your house or refinance, you'll get an appraisal that says your house is worth $200,000.
	Even though you just bought it for $100,000.
	Yep.
	Because of all the houses in the other area.
	And that's residential, guys.
	It's heavily contingent upon comparable, sir.
	Right.
	Three comparable sales.
	So you have the residence and the comparable sales.
	So I was like, okay.
	But if I record these for $200,000, the lower income people aren't going to be able to buy them.
	And they're not going to want to buy them.
	So I can create my own sales.
	But my borrowers aren't going to be able to buy them.
	So what I really need to do is create my own borrowers.
	The borrowers are the problem.
	So I need to create my own borrowers.
	I figure out—I go to Social Security.
	I figure out how to go to Social Security and get Social Security to issue me Social Security numbers to children that don't exist.
	Oh, shit.
	And I do this by calling over and over and over again.
	Like, I call once and say, hey, I'm 30—like, at that point, I was like, whatever, like, 33.
	I'm 33 years old, and— You know, or 32, whatever I was.
	I was like, I'm 32 years old and I've never had a social security number.
	And they're like, that's not possible.
	What the fuck?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	They're like, you have a driver's license.
	Do you have a bank account?
	Do you have a, you just hang up the phone.
	Fuck.
	You know, so you call back and you're like, um, so, you know, you kind of go through different, um, Yeah, different people.
	You never get the same person.
	There's 500 people answering the phone.
	So then I call back and I'm like, I was born in another country.
	And then they're like, do you have a green card?
	Do you have this?
	Do you have that?
	Click.
	So then I started thinking, okay.
	Who wouldn't have a social – because they kept saying nobody gets to 33 or 32 years old without a social security number.
	So I said, a young person.
	So I call up and I say, hey, I got a three-year-old son.
	He doesn't have a social security number.
	They go, was he born in a hospital?
	I was like, yeah.
	And they're like, well, if he's born in a hospital, he has a social security number.
	Why don't you bring him down here with your driver's license and we'll look him up?
	Fuck!
	You hang up the phone.
	So then I call again.
	Then he's not in the country.
	He's in whatever.
	Brazil, Colombia, wherever.
	So I keep calling.
	Finally, one of them, somebody says, how old is he?
	And I said, oh, he's like three.
	And she said, oh, it's too bad he's three.
	If he was under the age of 12, if he's 12 months or younger, you don't have to bring him in.
	You could just bring his shot record and his birth certificate, and we can check the computer.
	And if he doesn't have a Social Security number will issue one.
	Damn.
	So, fine arts degree.
	Yeah.
	I make a birth certificate.
	Fine arts degree.
	Fine arts degree.
	I order a big ream of copy of void paper.
	You know, what your birth certificate comes up.
	Order that.
	that.
	You have to order like a couple thousand, right?
	So I ordered that and then I, I make a template and I end up coming up with a birth certificate and then I get a shot record and go on Hillsborough County's, you know, vital statistics, whatever you get that printed out, you fill it out.
	And so I go down there and I give it to the woman and she checks the computer and she goes, Oh wow.
	A couple thousand, right?
	What's really scary is, and I'm telling this a little out of sequence, but she actually calls somebody from the back to come, and I'm like, shit, and bricks.
	I'm like, holy shit.
	This is the first time you're doing this now.
	I'm just shaking.
	And the guy walks in, he's like, what's going on?
	Well, he said this, and the guy goes, okay, hold on.
	He goes, that happens, because we get about one of these a month.
	He goes, no big deal.
	Look, okay, do this, do this.
	And he goes, yeah, yeah, there's never been an issue.
	And she's like, oh, okay.
	Well, what do I do?
	Oh, go to screen five.
	Name, does that look right?
	Is that right?
	Okay, yeah.
	Perfect.
	Okay.
	Boom.
	You'll have it in 10 days.
	Nice.
	10 days later, I get a little Social Security card.
	I then turn around and I go and I apply for – I don't, of course, apply for a 10-month-old child.
	I apply for a 33-year-old man, and I apply for secured credit cards.
	I get three secured credit cards.
	I start making the payments.
	After six months – Keep in mind, I know all of this already because people have done this.
	People have come in before with using their child social security number.
	So I knew it was possible for a real person to alter their credit profile to get a completely different credit profile.
	So if the person doesn't exist at all, it's super easy.
	So we start making the payments and after six months, boom, they've got 700 credit scores.
	So now, so you think, okay.
	Secured credit cards.
	We told you guys, that's how you build up your credit scores.
	He's doing it the other way, but we teach guys to get their credit.
	Secured credit cards.
	Yeah, I always say, yeah.
	Secured credit cards are, yeah.
	You guys are seeing it here.
	So I did that.
	In the wrong way.
	Right.
	So I do that.
	Yeah.
	I also figured out how to make a driver's license.
	Right?
	Like, it doesn't have to pass for, like, a sheriff's deputy or anything or a cop, but it just has to pass to go get the loan.
	Like, they don't do anything.
	They grab it.
	Yeah, they're just looking at it.
	They make a copy.
	So I sand off the information on, like, a driver's license, the information, and then I print this new information in reverse, and then I seal it in between a piece of transparency and glue, and then I trim off the side piece, and then I sand it all down.
	You can still see the hologram, bits and pieces of the hologram, just like it's a five-year-old beat-up.
	And just so you guys know, 20 years ago, driver's licenses were way easier to do this with than they are now.
	These were still the plastic ones, but you're right.
	They didn't have the face.
	You know how now they have your face?
	They have all these holograms and shit.
	It's easier to fake them, yeah.
	But the hologram was just, it said, Florida, Florida, Florida.
	So, how hard is that?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, I suppose that Bounster, you spoke about, for example, fake IDs, where girls used to do it back in the day, and you're right, it was so easy to just copy them and make a copy.
	It was way easier back then, this is 20 years ago now, but yeah, that's why all these IDs now have all this shit on them, is because of this, but sorry, continue on.
	And look, I would go in and open bank accounts with this ID. Damn!
	I mean, sometimes they would grab them, they'd like look at the ID, and you're like, oh my god, Oh my god!
	And they, okay, okay.
	And they open the account.
	So I make the fake ID. I've got 700 credit scores.
	And, you know, obviously the guy needs employment.
	We know I can do your employment.
	He needs a bank account.
	I've got your bank account.
	You know, he needs canceled checks to prove that they make the payments.
	Or maybe he just needs a management company to verify he's lived somewhere for five years.
	I got all that.
	So I have this guy go buy a house.
	And then he buys another house.
	And then I have another guy, create another guy.
	He buys a house and he buys another one.
	So another guy, he buys that.
	So everybody buys about five or six houses.
	And you were able to do this with these social security cards from babies?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you did this thing a couple of times where you went in there less than 12 months old.
	Yeah.
	Born outside the country, you did it multiple times, got social security numbers issued.
	Multiple times.
	What were their names?
	The names of the unborn kids.
	I know you're asking because it's Quentin Tarantino.
	Have you ever seen Reservoir Dogs?
	I have, yeah.
	Good movie.
	It was James Redd, Brandon Green, Lee Black, Michael White, William Blue, David Silver.
	Those are the names you used?
	Yeah, I used all those names.
	Which I thought was cute.
	He's creative, man.
	I thought that was cute, but when you get caught and you're talking to the prosecutors and everything, I'm like, eh, you know, and they got no sense of humor, bro.
	The judge is looking at me when I got sentenced.
	That was my favorite movie.
	You fucked it up for me.
	The judge doesn't think it's funny.
	Oh, listen.
	You're Mr.
	Pink.
	No, I'm not.
	Why don't I be Mr.
	Pink?
	At some point, I satisfied...
	At some point, I was satisfying loans, right?
	So I'd borrow a mortgage, and then I'd prepare a satisfaction of mortgage from, like, Bank of America, and I'd satisfy the loan in public records.
	And I would sign it, like, C. Montgomery Burns, which is the aging tycoon from The Simpsons.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Right, so, you know...
	Monty Burns.
	Of course, I'm notarizing them.
	Oh, my God.
	I'm doing the whole thing, right?
	I got like 10 notary stamps, you know?
	Yeah.
	So anyway, so I start buying these houses, and we are recording the values higher.
	So they're going for 200, 250.
	You know, it got up higher and higher.
	So now, you know, James Redd buys a house.
	And then refinance it at $200,000.
	He borrows maybe $180,000.
	He gets maybe a 90% loan, which is like $180,000 on $200,000.
	So I bought it for $50,000.
	I put maybe $10,000 into it.
	So you own them outright.
	Yeah, I don't have to renovate it.
	You're buying them outright.
	Or maybe I get a hard money lender.
	He doesn't give a shit.
	He's getting 50 grand.
	Of course, if I'm paying you back within two, three months, you're just throwing money at me.
	Yeah, I trust you.
	Right, of course.
	You're good for it.
	So what happens is, and I'm buying the house for maybe 40 or 50.
	I'm putting 10 in it.
	So I got maybe $60,000, maybe $70,000, and then I get a loan for $180,000.
	You pay back that loan and you're walking away with like $130,000.
	I'm walking away with $100,000, $110,000, $120,000, and I'm making the payments.
	So James Redd would buy five properties and borrow like $1.1, $1.3 million.
	From all of them?
	Yep.
	And then I would make the payments for three or four months worth of payments.
	And then I would run up his credit card.
	Of course, then I'd go apply for credit cards.
	You're getting $10,000, $15,000 credit cards by that point because I see all these mortgages.
	Because you did the work and you used the secured credit cards in the beginning and brought his credit scores to $700,000.
	He's got 700 credit scores.
	He's got five mortgages.
	He's got three credit cards that are being paid for.
	So now I can go get a couple personal loans for $15,000 apiece.
	So I'm running this thing up.
	I'm making like $600,000, $700,000, right?
	Even though I'm borrowing $1.3 million.
	Some of it has to go to pay for the house and the renovation and the payments.
	And then after a few payments, I just stopped paying.
	And so the house is going to foreclosure.
	The banks come in.
	They take the houses back.
	And they don't understand what happened.
	Like, they put it back on the market and try and sell it.
	So they're like, okay, we owe $180,000 wrapped up in this property, plus the foreclosure fees.
	Put it back on the market.
	And they'll put it on the market for six or seven months, and then maybe they go, God, it's not selling.
	You know what?
	Let's get an appraisal.
	So they do an appraisal.
	Uh-oh.
	There's comparables.
	What are you talking about?
	Uh-oh.
	There's comparables.
	110, 105, 110.
	Because he bought all the same neighborhood.
	Sorry, not 110.
	Sorry.
	Because you bought them all close to each other, right?
	They're everywhere.
	Well, you bought all of them.
	Not every house, but here's the thing.
	If a house sold for $60,000, it's a shithole.
	If you drive by my house, I put $10,000 on the outside.
	$15,000, $20,000 on the outside.
	Trim the trees, mow the yard.
	I painted the house.
	So if you drive by, you're an appraiser, drive by the house, you go, fuck, it looks like it's in great shape.
	Now, it's gutted inside.
	You can't live in this house.
	But from the outside, it looks sweet.
	So the $10,000 that you always put in was always cosmetic on the outside.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because Brandon Green doesn't have to live in that.
	He doesn't care what the inside looks like.
	Roof, windows.
	What was in particular?
	Honestly, most of it was paint and caulk.
	Wow.
	Because from 45 feet away, the appraiser's not going to get out of the house and walk up to somebody's house.
	He's getting paid $200, $300 for a drive-by appraisal.
	He's going to drive by and go, that thing said it sold for $210.
	That one sold for $205.
	That one sold for $245.
	They all look good to me.
	And unbeknownst to them, you bought them all.
	Yeah, I own them all.
	So, we got James, we got all these names.
	Yo, okay.
	No, this is great.
	Okay.
	But see, he knows the procedure of each person working to kind of like maneuver.
	What they're going to do.
	So he's obviously like fixing the cosmetics.
	That's what they're looking at.
	I'm sorry.
	That's crazy.
	No, I was going to say...
	Fucking a genius.
	Once they start calling...
	Once the banks start calling, I would print out a 12-car pileup on I-4, where somebody was life-flighted to Tampa General Hospital.
	And I would just insert my guy's name in there.
	Like, Brandon Green was in an accident, and he was life-flighted to Tampa General Hospital.
	I would print that article out.
	Add my guy's name into it, print it out on newsprint, cut it up, make copies on a copy machine.
	Then I would write a letter from Brandon Green's sister and say my brother was in a tragic accident.
	That's why he hasn't been making the mortgage payments, obviously.
	He's currently in a coma.
	And the doctors say even if he wakes up, he'll never work again.
	Damn.
	And so you send that to all of the collection agents.
	And they basically stop coming around.
	They just start the foreclosure process.
	Okay.
	So that's how you kept from getting annoyed.
	Well, I felt like I needed to give them something.
	Like, they need a reason, right?
	Because if you called his job, he doesn't work there anymore.
	He doesn't work there anymore.
	His cell numbers are shut off.
	He's not responding.
	We couldn't serve him.
	What's happening?
	Here's the reason.
	And then they go, oh, that makes sense.
	That's why if those Italian guys had paid at least four or five months and give a reason- They don't even have to give a reason.
	They could have just paid four or five months and they would have probably been 10 times better off than- Not paying at all.
	Right.
	Now, keep in mind, now it's 12 months.
	It used to be a first payment default required an immediate investigation.
	Now, if you don't pay the first 12 months, they're going to investigate for fraud now.
	But that's, once again, that's- After the housing market crashed and shit.
	Okay, so you did this where you were doing this and then, okay, so you were saying...
	So he sold the company.
	Yeah, well, we're past that now.
	Yeah, and then he bought this company doing renovations and flips.
	Yeah, right.
	Yeah, and then so the banks would come and foreclose the homes after you had gotten them all to 200K or whatever, and then you'd run it up on each person and then you'd send them a letter, hey, the person got sick or he's in a coma now, et cetera, and then the banks would be like, oh, okay, that makes sense, and they'd take property to the home and they'd try to sell them.
	They put them back on the market, and then every three months, they just keep reducing the sales price by like 20 or 30%.
	Yeah, because they couldn't understand why the hell they can't sell.
	Right.
	They don't understand it, but it doesn't matter.
	Like, they basically, they lent too much, it went bad, that happens, and then they'd eventually sell it for 70, 80,000, because investors- Close to what you bought it for.
	Originally.
	But more because I raised up the area because other investors are coming in and they're buying up everything because they're like, I'm buying this house, it's going for $70,000.
	I can get a price for $200,000.
	There's sales everywhere.
	Not realizing they go in, buy it, renovate it, and you're probably not going to sell it for $200,000.
	But I bought so many.
	I borrowed...
	You inadvertently increased the comparables.
	Oh, yeah.
	That's what you did.
	Yeah, they were everywhere.
	That is scary, though.
	That's crazy.
	You self-inflated it yourself.
	Yeah, you literally self-increased the value.
	I'm an investor.
	Oh, this is great.
	I can try this and make a profit.
	I'm screwing.
	That's China, by the way.
	That's what happened in China.
	That's what happened in China.
	In 2003, Forbes magazine came out with an article, and they said that the zip code in Ybor City was one of the top 20 fastest-growing zip codes in the nation.
	Oh, and that was because of Ybor City?
	I'm assuming...
	It's not that big.
	It's not that big of an area.
	Bank of Ybor.
	So anyway, what happened is...
	So how long did you do this for before...
	I'm going to say 18 months, borrowed $11.5 million.
	Okay.
	Damn.
	My mortgage company...
	Keep in mind, when I first got in trouble...
	Well, when the FBI came in and they grabbed my mortgage company, they ended up saying that the mortgage company, just from all the W-2s, pay stubs, they said that was about $40 million.
	Okay.
	So they tried to hit me for that when I got caught.
	What ended up happening was, and keep in mind, we got caught periodically.
	We'd get caught, some company would find out, this guy doesn't even exist.
	I had a buddy named Rudy, who we pulled out, I forget, $80,000, I don't know what it was, but it's like, hey, I'm going to take this much, we're going to put this much in the company, because he was part of the development company, and Rudy, here's 20 grand, make sure you make the payments, here's the coupon that they gave us at closing, make sure you make payments for the next three payments, okay, no problem.
	And then like a month and a half later, I get a phone call from an account executive with the mortgage company saying, hey man, they're investigating this mortgage.
	Why?
	The borrower never made a payment.
	What?
	And then I'd go to Rudy and go, what happened with the bank?
	He'd go, oh, is that due?
	You fucking idiot.
	Like, now they're already investigating, so I would end up, I ended up, in that instance, I actually ended up calling the bank as the person, right?
	And that wasn't, that guy's name wasn't even, like, a color name.
	It was, I think it was Alan, I want to say, like, Alan Duncan or Joel, I forget.
	Yeah.
	I called up there and I said, hey, this is Alan Duncan.
	And they were like, you know, oh, well, first I called and they were like, I asked for like the bank.
	It was a small bank.
	It was called South Star Bank and it was in Georgia.
	And I tried to call them up and they were in a meeting.
	And I said, no, no.
	I said, I need to talk to, you know, the, I forget, the attorney or whoever had been calling the account executive.
	And I said, I need to talk to that guy.
	And I said, my name is Alan.
	Trust me, go interrupt him.
	They want to talk to me.
	And sure enough, they get on the phone and I tell them, look, they're like, look, you don't even exist, bro.
	We figured out this.
	We figured out this.
	We're going to call the FBI. We're going to this.
	They told you this.
	Oh, they told me all this.
	And it's funny because their head of their fraud department was a former FBI agent.
	And he's like, yes, you're going to end up in a box, bro.
	You're going to end up going to prison for this.
	He's going on and on.
	And I kept saying, well, Why don't I just give you the money back?
	They're like, oh, we'll get the money back when we foreclose on the property.
	And I was like, oh, okay, I understand.
	I said, you think that your $180,000 loan is attached to a $220,000 piece of property?
	And he's like, they're like, yeah.
	And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	That property is maybe worth 50 grand.
	You're about to lose $100,000 easily.
	What are you talking about?
	We have an appraisal.
	I said, yeah, pull out the appraisal.
	And they pull it out and say, listen, this property is in the name of a guy named, you know, Lee Black.
	This one's in the name of a guy.
	Oh, shit.
	And so I just, I have to lay it out.
	They're calling the FBI. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So I lay it out completely for them.
	Uh-huh.
	And then I said, now you can call the FBI or you can get your money back, but you can't do both.
	Yeah.
	And they're like—I'm like, you're going to foreclose on this thing.
	You're going to lose over $100,000.
	And so they're like, hold on a second.
	They put me on hold.
	They come back, and they go, do you still have the money?
	And I was like, yeah, I got the money.
	They were like, look, just give us the money back, and we're good.
	We'll foreclose.
	Send us this much money back.
	We'll take the property back or whatever the— We agreed on it.
	Well, no, I got rid of the mortgage.
	I kept the property.
	So I go and I go to the bank.
	It's funny because they kept saying, well, we'll track you down.
	We'll get the money.
	And I was like, you're not going to track me down.
	That money went into different accounts, all in fake identities.
	It's all been removed.
	You're never seeing any money.
	But actually, I remember thinking a big part of that money went directly into my account.
	Yeah.
	And I'm just bluffing.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And they were like, just, okay, give us the money back.
	We're not going to contact the FBI. And they certainly could have, but they never did.
	Yeah.
	And that happens a few times.
	Yeah.
	So you made a deal with them.
	Yeah.
	That's a headache on their end.
	Yeah.
	First of all, nobody wants to call the FBI. They don't want the FBI coming in, looking at their files, looking at like, you don't know how far this goes.
	Are there other files?
	They don't want to have to turn around and tell their investors, listen, We've actually just made 45 loans to people that don't exist.
	They don't know where this goes.
	So we just want that money back.
	Everything else seems to be performing.
	We're just trying to hold it together.
	So we go and we get the cashier's check and we send them a cashier's check and I end up taking that property.
	I refinance it again or I think we sold it to somebody or refinance it.
	We get some money back.
	So you pay the lenders back the full amount of the house?
	Yeah.
	Well, the full amount of their mortgage.
	Their mortgage, okay.
	So I mean, and that happened Several times.
	Okay.
	That happened one time I got called where I had a guy...
	How close are...
	What are we doing?
	No, you go, bro.
	Go ahead.
	You want to take a quick break?
	No, I don't want to talk for six...
	No, you said the story.
	You said the story.
	Word from our sponsor?
	Yeah, we can do a quick word from our sponsor.
	Yeah, no, we're good, bro, because we're going to do our new show around in an hour, hour and a half.
	Yeah, we got time.
	We got time, bro.
	We got time.
	And I think this is important for people, but real quick...
	No?
	Okay, we'll keep going with the story.
	We'll do that after.
	So go ahead.
	I'll tell you real quick.
	One time, and this is a scumbag move, okay?
	So I know it's a scumbag move.
	Okay, okay.
	He makes it.
	So one time I get called by a broker and she's like, listen.
	So what I'd been doing was just going in and getting the files and signing them myself.
	Okay.
	So if the borrower, if Lee Black needs to show up, he doesn't even show up.
	I just go in and say, hey, I'm going to bring Lee Black the file.
	And so the title, the closer, right?
	Is he a closer attorney or attorney?
	Yeah, of course.
	They're making money.
	They know me.
	Matt, just do me a favor.
	Give me a copy of his driver's license.
	No problem.
	I got you.
	So I go.
	I make a copy of the driver's license.
	You know, the driver's license.
	And then I put it in there.
	I sign all the documents.
	I come back.
	They notarize them.
	They cut me the checks.
	I leave.
	Well, at one point, we'd done like two or three loans with this in the name of James Redd.
	And so, you know, and somebody, I told you, a bunch of, everybody knew what I was doing.
	Not everybody, but there's 15, 20 people that either are, there's probably 10 or 12 people that are directly involved.
	And a few other people that kind of know what's going on, or they're figuring it out.
	Yeah.
	Somebody had contacted the owner.
	Her name was Mary.
	Contacted Mary and told her, this guy doesn't exist.
	James Redd doesn't exist.
	And you've already closed a couple loans with him.
	So she calls the mortgage broker who's doing the loan and says, this guy has to show up or we're not closing the loan.
	So she calls me and says, Matt, Mary said James Wright has to show up.
	And I went, okay.
	I said, well, then he'll have to show up.
	And she's like, you know, how's that going to happen?
	And I was like, well, I'm going to work on it.
	We'll see.
	So I end up calling a guy named, I didn't mention this earlier.
	When I make these fake IDs, I would, you know, to close the loans in, I would always pick somebody that I knew that had been arrested.
	Okay.
	Because I thought, if I ever need to get somebody, what if I do need somebody to show up?
	I need to be able to go to that.
	So sometimes it's somebody who's renting from me.
	Sometimes it's a broker.
	Sometimes it...
	Well, in this case, it was a guy named Eric Tamargo.
	And I'm going to say Eric Tamargo because I talked to Eric, and Eric's a great guy, and he's heard me say this story, and he admits it's fucked up.
	So what ends up happening is...
	Eric was a guy who's cleaning yards.
	Like, he's trimming trees for me on these properties.
	He's painting houses.
	He's doing all kinds of stuff.
	And so I call him and I say, hey man, can you come in the office?
	He goes, sure, no problem.
	I go, what's up?
	And I said, hey, listen.
	I said, you know all these houses that we're doing?
	I said, yeah.
	I said, let me explain what I'm doing.
	And I explain it to him.
	And he's like, holy shit.
	He's like, that's fucking amazing.
	I'm right.
	I said, here's the problem.
	I've been signing, and I explained that Mary wants James Red to show up.
	And he goes, fuck.
	He's like, what are you going to do?
	And I went, um...
	Well, you're James.
	I said, I was thinking you would go in and sign.
	He goes, what are you talking about?
	He's like, that's nuts.
	He goes, well, first of all, he said, first of all, he said, you said you've been using, like, mug shots of people.
	He said, she's going to know it's not me.
	She's got a copy of the guy's driver's license.
	I went, that's the thing.
	I said, I used your mugshot from when you beat up your wife about five years ago, your domestic violence one.
	And he goes, and listen, he jumps up.
	He's like, you motherfucker.
	Eric would beat the brakes off me.
	I mean, like a small child.
	Like he boxes, he's, you know...
	And he'd already done like three years in prison.
	So he jumps up and I'm like, whoa, wait a minute, Eric.
	I said, listen, the only reason I used your name was because I knew if it came to this, you were the only person or only reason I used your photo was I knew if it came to this, you were the only person that I knew that had the balls, would have the balls to pull this off.
	Nice.
	That's a good way to say it.
	He looked at me and said, you're right.
	Yeah.
	And I just thought, you can't believe in this.
	So I take his driver's license.
	Well, first he goes, he said, listen.
	He said, I'm not doing this for nothing.
	I get in a lot of trouble.
	I said, no, you could.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	I said, you're making a lot of money on that.
	I said, well, a lot of that money is going back in the property.
	Yeah, but still, you're doing good.
	I said, yeah.
	He said, um...
	I said, what do you want, bro?
	And I remember thinking, if he asked for more than like 10 or 15 grand, I'm just going to change title companies and go do it myself.
	Yeah.
	Like, I've never shown up to do any of these.
	And he sat there and he goes...
	Give me 10K, bro.
	He goes, I want $500.
	What?
	And I literally went...
	Are you serious?
	$500?
	I go, it's 30 minutes, 20 minutes work.
	It's three minutes.
	You have to sign some documents.
	500 bucks?
	And he goes, hey, bro, I could get in a lot of trouble.
	And I was like, you don't have anybody else?
	I said, yeah, all right, you know what?
	That's fine, but you got to sign before I pay you.
	And he's like, no, no, I know you're good for it.
	I got you, I got you.
	So I take his driver's license.
	I sand off the stuff.
	I make the fake ID. We go to the title company.
	It was a few days later.
	We go to the title company.
	We walk in.
	Mary comes walking out in the lobby and looks at me.
	She goes, Mr.
	Cox, I don't know what you're doing here.
	She goes, I told Kelly, the broker, if James Redd doesn't show up, I'm not doing the loan.
	Eric stands up on cue and says, I'm James Redd.
	And she goes, um, oh, um, hold on a second.
	Runs in the back, grabs the file, comes out, opens it up with a copy of the old driver's license, looks at it and goes...
	I'm so sorry, Mr.
	Redd.
	I'll go ahead.
	I have the closing statement.
	I'll get the disclosures.
	Do you want something to drink?
	Sits him down.
	He signs.
	But when he's signing, keep in mind, it's not like one big check is coming out for like $90,000 or $110,000, right?
	It's a check.
	$30,000 is going to...
	A contractor.
	10,000's here.
	40,000's going to pay off a second mortgage that doesn't exist.
	They're going all over the place.
	And so he sees these checks.
	He's like, who do I send the $45,000 for?
	I said, oh, I'll give that to the guy.
	I got it.
	What about the 10,000?
	Oh, I got that, Mary.
	I'll take it.
	I got all these.
	I'll put these in.
	And he's like...
	Oh, shit.
	Motherfucker.
	So...
	He signs everything.
	We go out there.
	I cut him.
	I gave him 500 bucks.
	We go out and get in the car.
	Here's 500 bucks.
	He's like, yeah, bro.
	He's like, that was a lot of money.
	You guys made a lot of money.
	I need more, bro.
	I'm like, hey, man.
	A lot of it goes right back into the property.
	I got to make the payments.
	You know the renovations we're doing?
	You're not cheap, Eric.
	You charged me a ton of money.
	And he's like, yeah, still though, bro.
	He's like, well, okay.
	That's cool.
	Whatever.
	So a week later, we have another closing with Mary.
	With James Redd.
	I call up Eric.
	Eric, I get another closing.
	He goes, oh, man.
	He goes...
	I mean, I'll do it, bro, but I ain't doing it for 500 bucks.
	I'll tell you right now, and I went, fuck.
	And I'm thinking, if he asks for fucking more than 10 or 15, I'm just gonna do it myself.
	And I go, what do you want, Eric?
	And he goes...
	A thousand?
	I want a thousand dollars.
	Bro!
	I knew it!
	What the heck?
	Listen, I mean...
	Listen, you wanna know the worst thing about this?
	So, at some point, I take off on the run for like three years, right?
	They go to Eric.
	And Eric just tells him, this is what I did.
	He goes to jail for three years.
	For $1,500.
	For $1,500?
	Oh, my God.
	Wow.
	I see you judging me over there, Mo.
	I see you judging me.
	I don't need that.
	It's not my fault.
	Listen, he was on drugs.
	Probably saved his life.
	I feel like I probably saved his life.
	And look, I talked to the guy.
	He's cool.
	We've hung out.
	He's alright.
	That's funny shit, man.
	I mean, 500 bucks?
	No, come on, bro.
	That's like...
	What the time is that?
	Is he Mexican?
	No, Eric Machicardi.
	Machicardi?
	Eric Machicardi, I think, is what his name is.
	Oh.
	Yeah.
	No, he's a white guy.
	What?
	No, white guy.
	White guy.
	Oh, white guy.
	Okay.
	Damn, that's crazy.
	Just not the smartest white guy.
	Yeah.
	A lot of people think white guy is smart.
	So he said I need a thousand.
	So a thousand bucks for the second one is what he got.
	Yeah, he thought, I'm going to double it.
	That's funny.
	Yo, would you go to jail for a thousand bucks?
	Keep in mind, too, you have to understand, I've been doing this over a year.
	So in his mind, this is foolproof.
	And honestly, listen, it was foolproof up until I started, you know...
	I had a friend, a childhood friend.
	His name is Travis.
	We've known each other since, like, we both went to, you know, the short bus school together, you know?
	And so he comes to me at one point, and he's like, listen, I'm, you know, I'm fucking, I'm broke, you know?
	He's got a daughter.
	He's got this adorable little daughter.
	You know, I need, you know, I'm I need to make some money.
	Look, I got a couple cars.
	You know what I'm saying?
	We're at the point now where we've got underwriters that we're basically...
	I have an underwriter that I bought a car for, a Mercedes compression.
	Oh, shit.
	You got underwriters now?
	Oh, yeah.
	Listen, what do they call it?
	It was a compressor.
	It was like a two-door.
	It was a little Mercedes.
	This is...
	They don't even make them anymore.
	You don't know.
	This is kind of old.
	Yeah, this is like a two-seater Mercedes.
	It's like 2001.
	Yeah.
	Probably like a SL. Yeah.
	Yeah, it was like a little tiny one, like you hit the button and it pulls the roof back.
	It was only a two-seater, but I mean, I buy this for a fucking underwriter because he's working for this company that is just, he can get him to go.
	First of all, he would come to us first and review our files.
	And he'd be like, you got to change this, change this.
	So he told you exactly what to do.
	One of these?
	Yes, that's exactly it.
	Only listen, it was hideous.
	He was a gay guy and he wanted red interior.
	So it had red interior.
	It was hideous.
	He loved it.
	He loved it.
	And just so the audience knows, guys, whenever you close a deal, a bunch of people get paid out.
	When the deal's closed, a bunch of people make a bunch of money, which is why they were incentivized to do this.
	Because you guys are probably wondering, well, why are they doing all this fraud and stuff like that?
	It's because when the loan closes and the money goes out and disbursed, it goes to all the different people that were involved in the deal.
	Yeah, I'm not walking away with like, you know, like they're saying, you know, oh, you made, you know, 11 and a half million in this one little scam, right?
	Like, I didn't get 11 and a half million.
	There's a chunk of that that went to pay for the properties.
	There's a chunk that went to, we were building brand new houses.
	We're building this.
	Rudy's got to get some money.
	Dave's got to get some money.
	Everyone gets paid off of it.
	Right.
	Even Eric.
	Eric needs a little something.
	So anyway, eventually, a buddy of mine, Travis...
	So you go back and you sign Eric for this $1,000.
	That's, I think, where the story left off.
	Yeah, that's done.
	What I'm saying is, ultimately, the way it basically kind of, that comes down, is at this point, I borrow like $11.5 million.
	How many deals do you think you did in this time span with this development company that you had?
	It wasn't...
	So the FBI... And by the way, this figure's not correct.
	They said 109 houses.
	But I think they took all the houses...
	We didn't do 109 houses because each house was getting almost $150,000 to $200,000 mortgage on it.
	So if you add that up, then it's a massive amount of money.
	So it wasn't that.
	But there were lots of vacant...
	We're also doing other things.
	We're buying vacant lots.
	We're building brand new houses.
	We've got a development company.
	We're trying to kind of...
	Take this money and parlay it into a legitimate development company.
	And look, let's face it.
	I'm not flashy, right?
	But I am driving an Audi.
	We've got an Audi.
	We've got a Mercedes.
	We've got cars.
	I'm traveling.
	You've got underwriters under you, which is crazy that you had underwriters.
	And I'm dating a chick that, you know, I'm dating a few women that I have no reason to date.
	Like, it was the money.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Like, these are, like, you know, like, I'm dating, I went on a few dates with a, was it a Buccaneers cheerleader, like, you know.
	Yeah.
	I know.
	I know you look at me and you think, cool guy.
	You know, you think, oh, I can see.
	No, no, I think it might have been the money.
	So, but yeah, so I'm dating these chicks.
	And so this one chick I'm dating is like, hey, I want to do something.
	Like, I want to do what you're doing.
	She knows what I'm doing, but I don't need your help.
	Well, can I get in?
	Can I help?
	For what?
	Like, I've got a well-oiled machine at this point.
	Like, I got Rudy's finding properties, we got title companies, we've got appraisers, we've got, like, I got all the, I'm making these people myself.
	You literally have from step A all the way to step Z to get this entire, to get these deals closed.
	Right, I don't need you.
	Yeah.
	So, I said, you know, only thing we could do is, I said, I've been thinking about this.
	I said, like, I could get you a fake ID. You could go, like, rent a property.
	And we could satisfy the loan on the property, transfer the title into your name, and then refinance that property three or four times right away.
	So we could borrow maybe a million dollars on it.
	Then we'll make the payments on it for a few months and we'll continue to pull out the money and then we'll just leave.
	Like, well, once we get all the money out of the banks, we'll take off.
	And she's like...
	How much would I make?
	I'm like, like half a million dollars.
	And she's like, holy shit.
	And I'm like, yeah, but you have to understand, people are going to see your face.
	You know, I explained the whole thing to her.
	She's like, I don't care.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	Okay.
	So, and she knew I was on federal probation, right?
	So she's like, you know, like you, you've done fraud before.
	You didn't go to prison.
	You know, now she would have gone to prison for this.
	But, so we go and we, I get her a fake ID. We go, we...
	We rent a piece of property.
	We transfer the deed out of the property, out of the owner's name into her name.
	So you bought it and then you rented it out?
	No, no.
	We just rented it.
	So we just rent the property.
	Rent to own?
	No, no.
	I'm renting your house.
	I go downtown.
	I find your deed.
	I create a new deed.
	And I, in her name, and I record the new deed saying she bought it from you.
	Oh, shit!
	So I just stole your house.
	That was a lot, bro.
	That was a lot.
	But keep in mind, you still have a mortgage on it for like $200,000.
	So I create a satisfaction of mortgage from your bank and record that.
	And now in public records, it looks like you have no mortgage on the house.
	So she now owns a $200,000 house in her name and has no mortgage on it.
	Oh.
	Right.
	So then we refinance it like three different times with three different lenders for not much.
	Maybe the loans are small.
	They're like $110,000, $120,000.
	So what we're going to do is do five of them, get like half a million, and then satisfy those and then do it again.
	So the problem is the name that we got for her was Rosita Perez.
	And this is a chick with blondish brown hair and green eyes.
	Rosita Perez is clearly Hispanic.
	So I have her change her hair.
	She gets her hair done black and curly.
	And gets the photo for the ID, and I make the ID. But before she goes to the first closing, she actually changes her hair back, brown, you know, whatever.
	And I'm like, what are you doing?
	Why would you do that?
	And her name is Allison.
	And she's like, because it wasn't me.
	I'm like, this is exactly it, the point.
	It wasn't you.
	And she's like...
	And this is true.
	She goes, the picture's me, Matt, on the ID. She goes, my hair doesn't even...
	She goes, it's me.
	And I went...
	Okay, I get it.
	Like, that's fine.
	You're right.
	That's fine.
	So I'm okay.
	So we close the first loan, whatever, $110,000, let's say.
	So you rent the house just to establish the residency, I guess.
	Yeah, just to be able to have control of the property.
	Yeah.
	And I've done it before where the person lived in the house.
	Wow.
	So then she goes to the second closing, signs the documents, but the title agent looks at the ID and goes, this doesn't look like you.
	And she's like, what?
	It doesn't look like you.
	But it was her.
	And she's like, yeah.
	She goes, you don't look like a Perez.
	And she says, well, my father was a Perez.
	She's like, what?
	And she's like, you know...
	I'm not going to give you the check.
	She's like, what I'm going to do is let me make a few phone calls and then I'll mail it to you or I'll even drive it out to you.
	And she's like, okay.
	She makes a couple copies of the ID, gives it to her.
	Allison comes out, gets in the car.
	She's like, oh my God, this is what happened.
	And I'm like, oh, we're done.
	We're leaving.
	We're done.
	We drive off.
	She's like, well, what about this check for the $110,000?
	And I'm like, oh, that's done.
	That's over.
	I'm like, no, we're not cashing that.
	I'm like, she's going to figure this is going to unravel very quickly, you know?
	So she still cut her a check even though she didn't?
	No, no.
	She closed one loan already with another title company.
	Okay.
	So she got that check.
	It was fine.
	Okay.
	But the next title company, the chick was like, whoa, this doesn't look right.
	Okay.
	So she's saying, let's cash the check.
	I'm like, yeah, fuck no.
	And we're not cashing.
	We're depositing it, pulling money out, regardless.
	And I went, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	And she's like, well, let's go open a bank account.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	We're not opening a bank.
	We're done.
	Now, look, Allison needed money.
	She's broke.
	And I had rented an apartment for her.
	She was going in a divorce.
	I rented an apartment for her.
	I furnished it.
	Sorry, like Brandon Green furnished it.
	Like the check was a trap?
	It would have traced back to them.
	I think it would have traced back.
	It doesn't matter.
	Like, I've got a good thing.
	I'm sorry your thing fell apart.
	We'll fix it.
	We'll come up with something else.
	But to Allison, she was about to make $250,000, and within a few months, another $250,000.
	She's about to make half a million dollars.
	She didn't want to give up.
	She didn't want to give up.
	She's like, what are you talking about?
	And I'm like, look, it's fine.
	I'll give you a couple thousand dollars.
	She's like, a couple thousand dollars?
	What are you talking about?
	I'm about to make fucking 60 grand.
	Or, sorry, 55,000.
	She goes, what about Travis?
	So I had a buddy of mine, Travis.
	He was pretending to be Michael White in Orlando.
	So he had bought a property under the name Michael White, a couple properties, and he'd already refinanced those for like half a million dollars.
	And he was pulling the money out.
	He'd gotten out a couple hundred thousand.
	So she goes, what about Travis?
	Let's just deposit it in Travis's account.
	And I'm like, I'm saying no.
	And she goes, let me call Travis.
	And I go, you can call him.
	So we call Travis.
	Travis goes, well, tell me what happened.
	I tell him what happened.
	That money's the water, too, because obviously you got something good with Travis.
	So it's like, what the fuck?
	You're bringing attention over here.
	So Travis says, what happened?
	What do you want to do?
	What do you think, Matt?
	I said, I think it's fucked.
	And she's saying it's not.
	It's fine.
	He's exaggerating.
	He's worried about it.
	It's going to be fine.
	I've been doing this for like 16, 17 months at this point, right?
	So they think like...
	He's got it all wrapped up, but I've got it wrapped up because I'm pretty careful.
	I've never gone into a title company.
	I've never done a bunch of shit.
	So anyway, what ends up happening is she gives the check to Travis.
	Travis deposits it.
	Four or five days.
	It used to be you deposit a check, you don't get it right away.
	It takes five, ten days, right?
	Got it clear.
	Right.
	Deposits it.
	Five days later, four or five days later, She tells me, like, call him, call him.
	Today the check's good.
	And I call him and I said, hey, Travis.
	Allison wants to know.
	He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I already got a call from the bank manager.
	He said they're not going to clear the check and they want to witness me my signature on the back of the check.
	He said, any endorsements over $100,000, $100,000 check or more has to be witnessed.
	He wants me to witness it.
	And I go, bro, something's so wrong about that.
	I said, don't go to the bank.
	I said, the cops are waiting for you.
	And he goes, they're not.
	I'm pulling in the parking lot right now.
	There's no cops here.
	I'm like, well, that's like you're going to be in marked cars.
	Yeah.
	He goes, and I remember he told me, he's, oh, quit fucking, you're shaking like a little girl.
	And, you know, and like hangs up the phone.
	Yeah.
	And goes in the bank, gets grabbed.
	The cops are there.
	Yep.
	Who grabbed them?
	This was in Orlando.
	Whoever Orlando is.
	This is the sheriff, by the way.
	This is an FBI. Orange County.
	Orange County grabs him.
	I think it's Orange County.
	I don't think it's Orange County.
	Maybe.
	I don't know.
	They grab him.
	They take him downtown.
	We keep calling him, and he's not answering, and eventually I go to a payphone, and I call the Michael White cell phone.
	Not Travis, it was Michael White.
	Walter White!
	And a detective picks it up.
	Yeah, it's Orange County.
	Orange County.
	A detective picks it up and says, This is, you know, Sergeant so-and-so or Detective so-and-so.
	Who is this?
	And I'm like, you know, and I hang up.
	I'm like, he's done.
	He got arrested.
	So the next day he calls me.
	I go and I bond him out of jail.
	Well, I don't.
	I actually give his brother-in-law.
	I pay his brother-in-law the money to go get him.
	He gets him out.
	He gets out.
	He tells me, you know, he needs an attorney.
	We go get him an attorney.
	Did he talk?
	He didn't talk?
	Or you don't know yet at this point?
	I didn't know, but yeah, he had, yeah, absolutely.
	So he cooperated.
	And how hard was it for him to prove, I got something huge for you?
	I got something, detective, I have something huge.
	Oh yeah, how so?
	Pull up Hillsborough County Tax Appraisers website.
	Pull it up.
	Look up the name James Redd.
	James Redd, six properties.
	Look, Auburn foreclosure.
	Pull up the name Lee Black.
	Look, there's five properties.
	All of them are in foreclosure.
	Oh, he knew a couple of your other people.
	He knows all of them.
	Literally, you've got five or six purchases within a month or two.
	And within four months, they're all in foreclosure.
	So it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom.
	He's like, this guy's borrowed millions, millions of dollars.
	And he's like, this is the guy I'm working with.
	Who'd they just arrest him as?
	Michael White.
	And they're like, oh, boom.
	Let's put together a task force.
	Let's work with you.
	And his only agreement was, I just can't go to prison.
	I have a daughter.
	Just one day in and he did this.
	He buckled pretty quick.
	We gotta blame Allison, though.
	Isn't it crazy?
	He's always a woman, bro.
	Everybody always says this.
	It's true, though.
	It's stupidity on my part.
	I honestly thought a lot about it.
	I didn't need to get them involved in that.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I should have stuck with my thing.
	I should have cut my fucking mouth shut and just been like, oh yeah, man, I'm just doing good.
	I'm flipping properties.
	But instead, I got a big mouth.
	I run my fucking mouth.
	I have to tell everybody how cool I am.
	I have to prove to everybody how I'm getting over on the banks.
	Just a fucking jackass, right?
	Just shut your fucking mouth and everything will be fine.
	So you bond him out and he snitched on you, unbeknownst to you, of course, at this point.
	Well, no, first I pay for the lawyer to convince him to snitch.
	But it's all state.
	So I gave him his lawyer $15,000.
	So you hired his lawyer and the lawyer told him to snitch and you were okay with that?
	No, I didn't know that.
	You didn't tell me.
	Okay, okay, so his lawyer.
	So this is the second time you've been for a lawyer that told them to snitch on you.
	My lawyer gave him the recommendation.
	Because you got Gretchen the lawyer.
	He told her to snitch on you.
	And then you get the second lawyer, he says to snitch on you.
	I'm not the brightest.
	I have a learning disability.
	It takes me a while to figure things out.
	I should have known the first time.
	A normal person would have known the first time.
	Not me.
	So you bond him out, you get him a lawyer, and this lawyer fucking says you need to snitch on him.
	Snitch on that dude.
	Like, you need to work with the task force.
	So they put together a task force, and so one day...
	I'm still going.
	Yeah, you're still...
	Okay.
	One day, a buddy of mine who's a sheriff's deputy who I'd done a million, two million dollars worth of bad loans for, he and his wife, he comes to me, and he was divorced by this point, but he comes to me and he says...
	To my office.
	And he's like, hey, bro.
	And I'm like, hey, what's up?
	I remember he had his whole outfit on.
	You know, every time you see a deputy walk in your thing, you're like, whoop!
	And I was like, oh, Steve, you gotta stop coming in here like that.
	And we're laughing.
	I'm laughing.
	And he's like, I gotta talk to you outside.
	Like, okay.
	We go outside.
	What's up, bro?
	And this is in my development company.
	Now I have a development company in Ybor City.
	With a bunch of people working there.
	And I walk out.
	I'm like, what's up?
	He said, do you know somebody that got arrested in Orlando?
	I'm like, yeah.
	And he goes, okay, whoever that is, he's been working with the task force.
	He said, I used to fuck this chick in Tampa that works on the task force.
	She's been working on a task force with this guy in Orlando.
	And several of the other counties, obviously, Orange County, Pinellas, all these other counties I'm doing this in, right?
	He's like, they're working all these counties.
	They put together a task force.
	And I'm like, okay.
	He goes, the task force is on you.
	He goes, my name came up because I bought a bunch of properties from you.
	So she called me and told me not to talk to you anymore because they said they're coming to arrest you.
	They just handed it to the FBI. They're coming to arrest you in a couple of days.
	And he's like, she didn't want me to talk to you because she said you're going to cooperate.
	And she's afraid that she didn't want me to get jammed up.
	And I'm like, okay.
	And he goes, okay.
	He said, so I just thought I should tell you.
	I said, no, man.
	Good looking out.
	I appreciate that.
	And he said, what do you want to do?
	He goes, what are you going to do?
	And I went, I mean, I'm leaving.
	Like, I can't stay in floor.
	I can't stay here.
	I'm surprised he didn't get in trouble.
	I can't.
	No, he didn't.
	He didn't get anything.
	Listen, if I tell you what happened— That sheriff's deputy didn't get arrested either?
	No, no.
	He's on my indictment as an unnamed co-conspirator.
	When I tell you the whole thing, you'll understand.
	By the time they catch me, the entire economy is collapsing.
	So do you work on banks that are collapsing for $500 million, or do you work on a five-year-old case— For 40 or 50 million.
	Okay, interesting.
	You go for the banks that are a billion dollar bank or whatever now in the five year old case.
	So what happens is he comes to me and he's like, what are you going to do?
	I said, oh, I'm leaving.
	I'm leaving.
	What year is this now?
	2003.
	Late, almost 2004.
	Like December 2003.
	And he's like, what are you doing?
	You had been doing this for a while.
	When did your buddy get jammed up?
	When did this idiot get jammed up?
	Four or five months earlier.
	Okay.
	And he's the one that probably got this task force thing started on you.
	No, of course.
	Yeah.
	He worked with it.
	Travis worked with the task force the whole time.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Steve might- And it was a state task force to be- State.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Just, yeah, yeah.
	You know, FDLE, the local county.
	Gotcha.
	And then when they got it together, they realized, hey, there's too many banks, too many, you know, whatever, national banks involved.
	Yeah.
	It's too big.
	For us, the locals, let's give it to the FBI. So they give it to the FBI, and of course you can come arrest me because I'm on probation.
	You don't have to do anything but just say, we're going to arrest you.
	For what?
	I think you did something.
	Like, I have no rights on probation.
	So...
	No, no, I'm listening.
	Okay.
	So he says, you know, what are you going to do?
	I say, I'm taking off.
	You know, I can't go to prison, you know.
	So I'm like, you know, like I've seen Shawshank Redemption.
	I know what happened.
	So I'm just joking.
	That doesn't happen.
	Anyway.
	So, but, you know, I don't know that.
	Like I've seen two movies, Shawshank Redemption and a movie called Animal Factory.
	Neither are good.
	Nothing goes good for these guys.
	In the animal factory, there's a little white guy.
	It's not good, bro.
	It's not good.
	So I'm thinking, I can't go.
	I'm adorable.
	Like a pretzel!
	Honestly, to a guy with a life sentence, I might as well be wearing a dress.
	So, I mean, that's what I thought.
	But anyway, so I say, oh, I'm leaving.
	So I take off on the run, right?
	I get like 80 grand.
	Even though we have maybe half a million to a million dollars in several accounts, this is a Thursday at like 4 o'clock.
	I have one day to get out money.
	I start giving everybody...
	Go cash this check is $8,000.
	Go cash $7,000, $5,000, $8,000, $9,000.
	Under $10,000 for reporting requirements.
	Right.
	I get $80,000 the next day.
	And the chick I was dating at the time, who I'd only been dating a few months.
	Okay.
	Not Allison, thankfully.
	How many texts did you have, bro?
	You have a lot of chicks.
	And I actually had slept with Allison for a few months.
	Well, that was obvious.
	It just didn't work out.
	We knew that.
	So, anyway.
	So, I... So I end up, I get this money, I take, and I'm packing my bags, and the chick that I was dating comes over to my house, because I hadn't returned her calls all day.
	And we were supposed to go out that night, and she's just like, what's going on?
	I'm like, oh, hey, what's going on?
	Yeah.
	It's a funny story.
	And so I'm packing a bag, and I'm like, this is what's going on.
	And she's like, holy shit.
	And so I tell her, and she's like, what are you going to do?
	I said, I'm leaving.
	She's like, what are you going to do for money?
	I said, I'm just going to run a couple scams, get a few million dollars, buy some rental properties, and let the whole thing blow over and just acclimate back into society.
	And she's like, well...
	I want to come with you.
	And I'm like, what are you fucking talking about?
	We barely even know each other.
	And she's like, well, I'm in love with you.
	And I'm like, honestly, I don't think this was ever...
	And that's sweet, but this was never going to become love for me.
	You know?
	How dare you!
	I slept with her...
	Probably not even a dozen times.
	She's a nice girl and everything, but no.
	She begs and pleads for me to come with her.
	Another bad mistake.
	I end up saying yes.
	First of all, I don't think people realize how frightening it is to leave everything you know and just go off on the run.
	That's a terrifying experience or idea.
	Anyway, I write a letter to my parents.
	Mom, Dad, sorry.
	You know, here's what I've done.
	Fucked up.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm a shitty son.
	You deserve better.
	I'm done.
	I'm leaving.
	And I take off.
	You know, write a letter to my ex-wife.
	Kayla.
	Kayla.
	And, you know, and I have a son.
	And, you know, just basically just realized that, like, I kind of felt like if I went to prison, she was never going to bring him home.
	To see me in prison.
	You know, I basically justified all that, all those reasons to just walk away from everybody.
	So I take off on the run, and when we go off on the run, now we have a problem because we don't have any money.
	How long did that 80k last you?
	Yeah, we burned through it pretty quick.
	A couple of months maybe?
	Well, we were a little frugal, you know, a little bit, but we are going on vacation.
	So I immediately go to Atlanta and I rent a house in Alpharetta, Georgia, so like a suburb.
	And I rent this house from a guy named Michael Shanahan.
	And I make a fake ID in Michael Shanahan's name and I go down to public records and I satisfy the mortgage.
	He has two mortgages.
	The scheme again, okay.
	I satisfy both mortgages on his property.
	I then call, because keep in mind I have a fake ID in his name and I'm using a child social security number, but I don't have any credit.
	Like I get a couple secured credit cards, but it takes six months to get scores.
	So I got a couple credit cards, but if you pull his credit, he's got no scores.
	Yeah.
	So I can't go to a bank.
	So what I do, but I do now own a house worth $200,000.
	Okay.
	And it looks like I've owned it for 10 years.
	Yeah.
	So, because my name is Michael Shanahan.
	So I call three hard money lenders and Which are basically guys that have a lot of money that lend based on the equity of your home.
	And they charge like 12% interest, whatever.
	So all three of them come over.
	Like one comes in at 10 o'clock that morning.
	Then one comes at 11 or 12.
	And one comes at like 2.
	They all look at the house.
	None of them know about the other ones.
	And I convince all of them to lend me $150,000 apiece.
	So we close on the same day.
	And I get like $400,000.
	Right?
	I mean, yeah, I deposit it in the bank account, I start pulling out the money, I pull out $400,000, and I take off on the run.
	Again, like we take off again.
	So, I mean, there's actually a story there, but I can move on since, I mean, we're approaching 10 o'clock.
	No, don't worry.
	You're good.
	Trust me, bro.
	This is a good story, man.
	Okay.
	Continue on, sir.
	I need some popcorn, bro.
	You got popcorn in the back?
	Yeah, don't worry.
	Like I said, guys, FNF news coming soon.
	I'm waiting for Elijah.
	Elijah Schaefer's going to pull up, too, so that's fine.
	We'll wait for him.
	So what ends up happening is...
	Need more coffee or are you good?
	No, no, I'm good.
	So I'm pulling money out of the banks, right?
	Like Becky's going in, I'm going in, we'll get $8,000, $7,000, $5,000, $9,000.
	Oh, this $400K that you have.
	Yeah, we pull it all out.
	And at one point I get frustrated because it's like, fuck, this is taking forever, right?
	And we've got it set up perfectly, right?
	Like I'm varying the balances on the bank.
	And just so the audience knows, he's pulling it under 10K because you have to report it to the IRS whenever you pull $10,000 or more.
	And that obviously leaves a transaction record and everything.
	He didn't want that.
	So it's funny you say that.
	So here's the problem.
	At some point, I get frustrated.
	And I have a check for $29,000.
	One of the refinances, we had a check for $29,000.
	And keep in mind, we also, I always forget this, we also went to Tallahassee and did one in the name of Teresa Knight, where Becky goes in and signs.
	So we got more, we got some money, right?
	Not too much, but whatever, half a million.
	So...
	At one point, we're getting close to the end, and I'm frantic, right?
	Like, we've got almost all the money.
	And it's like, I've got a check for $29,000.
	And typically, I would go in and just give it to them.
	So you would just walk around with this cash?
	No, no.
	We have it in a duffel bag.
	We have it hidden.
	Yeah, of course.
	But your goal is to get it out of the bank as quickly as possible and have it in cash.
	There's no crypto or anything.
	This is 2004 probably now at this point.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	That's exactly what it was.
	So I go into the bank one time and it was like, I'm going to say it was SunTrust Bank.
	So I go into SunTrust Bank and we did a cashier's check that had been issued from SunTrust Bank, from the title company.
	In the name of Scott Cugno.
	And I had a real ID in the name Scott Cugno.
	Because by this point, I was able...
	I ordered...
	It was a real person.
	Oh, my God.
	It was a real person that I knew.
	And I just had a conversation with him.
	And I ended up getting all of his enough information out during the conversation to steal his identity.
	Oh, wow.
	And then I... Stop it.
	Stop.
	I see you.
	You've never done anything wrong.
	I feel bad.
	About this person, right?
	You feel bad about this person?
	No.
	Come on, bro.
	And listen, Scott, I've tried to talk to Scott Cugdo.
	I've tried to talk to him many times.
	He doesn't want to talk to me.
	I would either.
	I mean, he's holding resentment.
	That's not good for him.
	Anyway, I also borrowed.
	I also bought a car in his name.
	I was not laughing.
	Opened up some bank accounts.
	I was not laughing, by the way.
	But the point is, so what I do is I so I have a driver's license in his name.
	That is scary, bro.
	So I can talk to you, you take my info, and then, but that's me?
	That's scary, bro.
	Bro, this was 2004, too.
	This was before internet and computers and shit.
	He was stealing dudes' identities to Linkin Park.
	I got so far!
	Not to far!
	In the end!
	So I go into SunTrust Bank, and I say to the guy at SunTrust Bank, I go, listen.
	So I try and cash.
	I go up to the teller, I need $29,000.
	She's like, oh, okay.
	Well, go sit over there.
	So I go sit in, like, the guy, the manager's office or something, right?
	A little cubicle with, like, these glass partitions.
	I sit down.
	Manager comes over and says, hey, I understand you're trying to cash this check.
	I'm like, right.
	He said, why...
	Why don't you just deposit in your own bank?
	I went, well, my bank's in Florida, and they're going to hold it for like 10 days, and I need the cash.
	He's like, well, what are you doing with the cash?
	I go, well, I own a construction company.
	I have a perfect story.
	I own a construction company, and we have a lot of migrants and stuff, and basically, yeah, laborers, like Mexican laborers.
	They don't have bank accounts.
	I said, so I cash their checks for them.
	And I said, because I know the checks are good because this is my company.
	And he's like, okay, that makes sense.
	And he's like, okay.
	You're good at this, man.
	And he turns around and he leaves.
	He comes back a little bit later.
	He asks me some more questions.
	Keep in mind, the chick, Becky, is calling me nonstop.
	My phone's ringing like every three minutes.
	Like, what are you doing?
	And I'm like, ah, the guy's being a dick.
	He doesn't want to give me the money.
	She's like, get out of the bank.
	Get out of the bank.
	And I'm like, why?
	She's like, get out of the bank.
	And I'm like, look, don't call me.
	Like, if you see a cop's pulling in, tell me.
	You see some deputies pulling, I'll fucking take off.
	And then you meet me behind the Publix two blocks away.
	How long have you guys been on the run now at this point?
	A few months?
	Six months.
	Six months at this point.
	Keep in mind, by this point, we've gone to Jamaica.
	We've gone all over.
	But you guys would typically stay.
	But you're in Georgia now at this point, right?
	You're in Georgia at this point?
	Why not just stay abroad in Columbia or something and never come back?
	Because then I have to live in Columbia.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I don't live there either.
	I'll visit but never.
	First of all, I don't have any money.
	I'm trying to get a few million dollars.
	First of all, if I go there with a few million dollars, my fear is they'll take it from me.
	And I don't mean the local Colombians.
	I'm like, the cops will take it from me.
	Clearly, people are looking for you and you seem to have a lot of cash.
	I'm just going to take it.
	And I don't know much.
	Maybe that's not true, but I can't fuck up, right?
	So what I do is, the guy asks me some questions.
	He leaves.
	I got Becky calling me on the phone.
	Get out of the bank.
	I can't get out of the bank.
	He's got my driver's license.
	He's got my credit card.
	He's got a fucking check for $29,000.
	He'll call the police.
	I have to wait it out.
	He comes back, goes back.
	So we're going back and forth.
	She's calling me.
	And then at some point, the phone rings, and I look at the phone.
	And I don't recognize the number.
	Oh, shit.
	And I'm like – so I pick up the phone.
	I'm like, hello?
	And the person says, hi, Mr.
	Shanahan.
	Remember I refinanced Michael Shanahan's house.
	Hi, Mr.
	Shanahan.
	This is Kimberly from SunTrust Bank.
	We have someone in here trying to cash a large check that was written on a title company account from a refinance you did.
	Just wondering if you could verify the payee and the amount.
	And he's like, yeah, that should be Scott Cugno.
	And so I say, that should be Scott Cugno.
	I believe it's for $29,000.
	So I answer whatever the question was.
	And she's like, oh, okay.
	And keep in mind, I'm looking around like, Kimberly's in the bank somewhere.
	So I'm looking around like, where the fuck?
	And I say, how did you get this number?
	And she goes, oh...
	And this was back when they had like 411.
	You could call, right?
	You could call and get someone's phone number.
	There's like the white pages, whatever.
	And what they did, they didn't do that.
	They said, oh, we called the title company.
	And the title company gave me your phone number.
	So the title, because this is not Michael Shanahan.
	They called the title company and got the name Michael Shanahan and got the phone number from the title company.
	And they gave my phone number.
	They could have called the real Michael Shanahan.
	If she'd really looked at the real Michael Shanahan, he'd be like, what's going on?
	What the fuck are you talking about?
	I got a mortgage on this house.
	What are you talking about?
	So I'm like, and he still does.
	Several.
	And I'm sitting there like, I'm like, oh, okay.
	She goes, yeah, we called her.
	That's okay.
	Oh, no, no, no, it's fine.
	She's like, okay, thank you.
	Hang up the phone.
	Fucking five minutes later.
	A guy, the manager, and this chick comes out, walks up to me, and he says, Mr.
	Cugno, I have your money.
	And he starts counting out the $29,000.
	He counts it out twice.
	And she's standing there.
	And I'm assuming this might be Kimberly, although she never talked it.
	And I'm like – and he counts it out, and he goes, okay.
	And I remember I pick it up, and I remember I'm shoving it in my pockets like – I look like, you just look like a scoundrel.
	Shoving like, I gotta get out of here.
	I didn't prepare for this.
	So I'm shoving the money in my pockets and I get up and I'm starting to walk off and he says, Mr.
	Cugno?
	And I said, yes sir.
	And he goes, I'd like to mention something.
	He said, I feel very apprehensive about this transaction.
	I go, really?
	And I go, what is it exactly?
	And he goes, I can't put my finger on it.
	And I go, it'll come to you.
	And I turn around, I bolt right out of the fucking front door, hop in the car.
	Becky backs out, drives off.
	And listen, I mean, I'm just like, holy shit.
	You're not going to fucking believe what just happened.
	And she's like, and you know, that's, yeah.
	So I take off and he, so the Secret Service shows up like a week later.
	Oh, at your house?
	No, no, at the bank and explains like, did you cash a check?
	Because keep in mind, they filled out a CCR, cash transaction report.
	They also filled out.
	Because you said fuck it at this point.
	Yeah, 10K plus.
	They also filled out a suspicious activity report.
	Ah.
	So both of them.
	They fill up the SAR? Yeah, yeah.
	But I'm not there for the IRS, for the audit.
	Can you tell me what that actually means?
	So a SAR, okay, I'm actually shocked that you even know what that is.
	So a SAR suspicious activity report.
	Anytime you do financial transactions, I'm going to be careful here with my words.
	Suspicious transaction reports, it could be anything.
	They'll fill out something called a SAR and it goes to a central location and then that information gets divied out to different...
	Different law enforcement agencies.
	Did this come out in your discovery?
	It came out when I was talking to the Secret Service.
	They'd been there.
	They talked to these people.
	They told you that there was a SAR. They told me the manager was like, listen.
	Is that proper?
	I would never tell a target that it was a part of a SAR. Well, I wasn't a target at that point.
	I was done.
	Yeah, but Target is someone you're looking at.
	I would never tell them a SAR, but everyone's different.
	I'm too paranoid to do this shit, bro.
	I'm too scared to do this shit, bro.
	I'm too scared.
	So what's funny about that is she's the one who was like, listen, boy, that bank manager did everything to try and figure out what was happening.
	He called everybody.
	He knew.
	He knew something was up.
	So he filed a SAR. Obviously, they had to fill out the CTR, Currency Transaction Report.
	Did he also call Secret Service, too?
	No, no.
	He didn't do that.
	He didn't call anybody.
	You just did the SAR? Yeah.
	He ran the reports.
	He ran me through LexisNexis.
	He's running all these tests or all these systems to try and figure out what's going on.
	He's calling the title company.
	He knows something's wrong.
	LexisNexis, just for the audience, because they might not know, that's a database, guys, where you can basically pull people's information from utility records, et cetera, because he probably was questioning if you're the real guy.
	So he was like, yeah, that's probably why.
	But he just couldn't.
	And listen, I've had multiple things happen.
	So one of the things I did when we were on the run, because at this point, I don't know if I mentioned this, at this point, There's articles.
	There's got to be...
	Let me put it this way.
	The St.
	Petersburg Times did like 34 articles on me.
	And by this point, they've already done like 12.
	Because when I take off, they're like, serial signer, like, you know, phantom identities.
	And this is all front page.
	Yeah, and they didn't know what your real name was at this point.
	No, no.
	In Tampa, they do know.
	Because now they...
	Remember this...
	When the FBI showed up...
	When I left, the FBI showed up like three, four days later.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And they're questioning everybody.
	They're going around.
	They go.
	They talk to Eric.
	They talk to us.
	They're talking to everybody.
	You know, like, let's face it, even if Eric doesn't say anything, as soon as they go in and, well, who's this?
	They start showing, do you know this person?
	They're like, oh, that's Eric.
	Oh, that's so-and-so.
	So they just go talk to him.
	Eric immediately says, yeah, listen, this is what I did.
	So everybody says, you know, Allison.
	Allison actually goes downtown with her lawyer and just says, I'll tell you everything.
	I just, I don't want to go to jail.
	And they agree.
	They won't send her to jail.
	Wow.
	And guess what she did?
	Guess what they did?
	They sent her to jail.
	So she got 30 months.
	I also got 30 months.
	She never got made any money.
	I mean, other than the money I gave her, you know, just that she was divorced.
	She needs a place to stay.
	I'll get you an apartment.
	You know, I have no furniture.
	I'll get you the furniture.
	You know, we'll go to Target.
	We'll buy all new.
	We just, it's completely brand new.
	It looked like a fucking model home.
	Well, she got what she wanted.
	A place to stay?
	A jail?
	Yeah, she wanted half a million dollars.
	Like, you know, but that's what she thinks she was going to get.
	But, you know, I... So this guy, so Secret Service shows up at, so FBI showed up there, where you used to be, and then you said Secret Service ends up showing up at the place where you cash this check for $29,000.
	They showed up everywhere.
	Look, keep in mind, by this point I got like $400 and some odd thousand dollars.
	We take off.
	Yeah.
	We go to Charlotte.
	We rent an apartment in Charlotte.
	I get...
	The girl that you ran away with?
	Yes.
	Not Allison.
	No, no, not Allison.
	Allison's still...
	Allison's back in...
	Allison got her own problems.
	Yeah.
	This is Becky, right?
	Yeah, this is Becky.
	Becky.
	So, we're getting cosmetic surgery.
	Becky gets, like, a boob job.
	Oh, shit.
	She gets a tummy tuck.
	She, like, you know...
	I mean, I get a nose job.
	I get a face...
	They call it a mini facelift.
	I get my teeth done.
	I get hair transplants, you know, hair grafts, whatever.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I've done that before.
	Looks good.
	Thanks, man.
	I appreciate it.
	You got the good hair.
	You can comb it down like that and nobody knows.
	Yeah, I just brush it for you.
	I got it, too.
	No, you didn't.
	He knew he didn't.
	It's funny, too, because whenever I tell somebody who's balding that, I feel like the big titty girl in the mall.
	They never look at me in the face again.
	The whole time they're staring at my hairline.
	The whole time.
	So you're in Charlotte now, you said, right?
	I'm in Charlotte.
	So you left Georgia, too much heat, got out of there.
	We were in a place.
	Did you know that Secret Service agents went to that place at this point, or you didn't know yet?
	I don't know.
	I know they're showing up.
	Well, I know they showed up because we were on the local news, like the news that they had John Doe posters of us, because it takes them a while to figure out who we are.
	But keep in mind, I'm not trying to cover my tracks at this point.
	I'm putting my fingerprint on the fucking, like if I cash a check, boom, no problem.
	Like, I'm already wanted.
	Yeah.
	So, anyway, we go to Charlotte.
	We go to Vegas and we survey homeless people.
	We go to Vegas, one, to give Becky's ex-husband and her money for her son.
	She has a son that lives in Vegas.
	So she goes and gives him whatever it was, like 30 grand.
	We give her parents some money.
	So then what we do is we're staying in Charlotte.
	I go to Columbia, South Carolina.
	Or Columbus, South Carolina?
	Columbus.
	I think it's Columbus.
	Columbus, South Carolina, with the name Gary Sullivan, which is a homeless guy.
	I go get an ID and his name, and I buy two houses.
	Wait, you spoke to Gary on the street.
	Oh, I didn't mention this.
	By this point, I'm surveying homeless people.
	Yo, bro.
	You're a piece of work, bro.
	I can't stop.
	Me with the judgment.
	You're a piece of work, bro.
	Jesus.
	What did they do to you, bro?
	The homeless.
	They're not using their identities.
	But they're still people.
	Okay.
	They're not using it.
	They're fine.
	They're fine.
	I gave them 20 bucks to take a survey.
	20 bucks?
	They took the survey.
	So I make up a survey form and I go around to the homeless people and I say, hey, I work for the Salvation Army.
	We're taking a survey to try and deter...
	I really expected more.
	From you guys.
	Wait, wait, wait!
	Hold on!
	You're telling me!
	I talk to anyone!
	They can steal my info like that?
	A woman, a guy, just tell them about myself and what I do.
	I had certain questions.
	I have a survey and I said I've taken surveys to try and determine where we place our next homeless facility.
	Give me three questions.
	The question?
	Yeah, three of them.
	Three of them?
	Three important ones?
	Yeah, the three questions that you would use to steal identity.
	Name, date of birth, and social security number.
	Never say that again to anybody.
	Wait, wait, socials?
	Of course, they give me...
	They're homeless.
	The few times that they did, I've had one or two guys say, um...
	No, bro.
	No, bro.
	After this guy fills out the whole form.
	And you can tell that a lot of them have mental illnesses and stuff.
	So after the whole form...
	This is horrible.
	Yo, this is crazy, man.
	Yo, you're a piece of work, man.
	I feel bad.
	I feel bad about it.
	I don't know what's wrong with you, bro.
	So...
	So, you want to hear this?
	Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
	So, this one guy, I filled out the whole form, right?
	And it's him and another guy.
	And he goes like this.
	He goes, man, I feel like something's wrong, bro.
	And I went, I said, what's wrong?
	He goes, I feel like maybe this is, like, we're in trouble.
	Like, maybe you're stealing my identity or something.
	And I looked at him and I went...
	Why would I steal your identity?
	And he goes, I don't know.
	I said, are you rich?
	He goes, no.
	I go, do you have good credit?
	He goes, no.
	I said, so what good's your identity?
	And he goes, and then the other guy with him is like, yeah, bro, what are you doing?
	He's like, do you want the 20 bucks or not?
	I'm like, do you want the 20 bucks?
	I go, I'll tear it up right now.
	He's like, no, no, no, give me the 20 bucks.
	So he gives me the 20 bucks.
	They take the 20 bucks.
	They go get a, you know, Chick-fil-A. Yeah, they're good.
	They all seem very happy.
	So...
	Chick-fil-a, but filet the identity.
	You want 20 bucks?
	Come on, nigga.
	You want some food?
	What the fuck?
	There's so many homeless here in Miami, bro.
	You be good.
	Don't get me started.
	Part two.
	Part two, literally.
	DC edition, Miami.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Sorry, man.
	Keep going.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	All right, so you got the Sullivan name.
	At this point, so at this point...
	By the way, Elijah's in the house, guys.
	He's in the back, chilling.
	Shout out to Elijah.
	He's here.
	Sorry, continue.
	You're funny.
	You should be a comedian, bro.
	You're funny, bro.
	So, here's what I do.
	I then, with that information, you know, I have their mother's maiden name, where they went to high school, if they were ever in the military, the whole thing, right?
	Are they ever on social security disability?
	Are they receiving any benefits?
	I ask a whole...
	I got about 17, 18 questions.
	So, now what I do is...
	I order their birth certificate, their social security card.
	I register to vote in their name.
	I order a copy of their high school transcripts.
	I take that information.
	I go to the local DMV. So if I interview you in South Carolina, I might go to North Carolina and get an ID, right?
	Because I don't want them to pull up your picture.
	So now I can go in.
	I can get an ID. I can get a driver's license.
	I can go get a passport.
	I can travel as you.
	Wow.
	This is crazy, bro.
	So...
	So I, um, yeah, so I, I, I've got this, I got Gary Sullivan.
	We, I buy two houses in his name.
	I satisfy the loans on the houses, you know, and I put down money.
	Of course I put down cause I have no credit.
	So I have to put down like 20%, like put down 20, 30, same thing, secured credit cards in their name.
	No, but I have no credit.
	Oh, okay.
	So I do that, but I don't have six or seven months.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So instead what I do is I go and I say, look, I need you to owner finance your house for me.
	I'll give you 20% down.
	And they go, okay.
	People go, okay.
	So I buy like a $250,000 house.
	I give them 25 grand.
	Well, I guess, which is really only 10%.
	Yeah.
	Owner finance, yeah.
	So they basically become the bank.
	So the owner finances the house himself.
	Even though these people have mortgages on their house, we just do what's called a wraparound.
	So I pay you and you continue to pay Bank of America or First Trust Bank or whoever.
	So it's a wraparound mortgage.
	You have a mortgage on the title and your original mortgage stays there too, but the deed's in my name.
	Okay.
	And so I buy several houses.
	And they can do this without fucking up their loan?
	As long as they make the payments.
	They just don't tell them.
	Yeah, they don't mention it.
	They just don't mention it to the bank, obviously.
	Yeah.
	You probably shouldn't.
	Yeah.
	I was thinking in my head like that's got to be a violation of the loan terms.
	Well, it is, but they never – it's the acceleration clause is supposed to be triggered, but they never do it because all the bank really cares about is they're like, look – Just pay us.
	You transfer the loan.
	We could accelerate it, but you're paying.
	Yeah.
	So there's no reason for us to do that.
	We just want to get paid.
	Because don't they put each loan on the actual...
	For example, the mortgagee, which bank is going to be?
	Is it two banks or just...
	Well, no.
	There's no...
	I'm not borrowing money from anybody.
	He's owner financing it.
	So I owe him $200,000.
	Got it.
	He happens to owe the bank $195,000.
	So I... I put a down payment down.
	10%.
	I make payments of $2,000 a month to the owner, and then they pay their bank.
	So you never take a loan out ever?
	Never.
	Not right now.
	Not initially.
	Because he's on the run.
	I just want to get the house in the name of Gary Sullivan.
	Got it.
	I get the name of...
	Basically, the owner becomes a bank and sells it to them, owner financing.
	There we go.
	Yeah.
	So then, once that happens, I go downtown.
	Once it's recorded, takes a week or two, I go downtown, and I satisfy those loans.
	So now I own a $240,000, I forget how much it was, like $230,000 house.
	For the audience, real quick, satisfaction basically means the loan is paid off.
	It appears to be paid.
	It's not really paid off.
	Yeah, it's not really paid off, but satisfaction is basically the house is paid off.
	Right, so if you borrow $200,000 from Bank of America, and let's say you pay off Bank of America, they mail a satisfaction of mortgage into public records, and it gets recorded.
	So now it looks like in public records, you don't owe Bank of America any money because, of course, you don't.
	But what I do is I just go in and file that document.
	You still do owe Bank of America.
	Bank of America doesn't know I filed it.
	But when the title company comes down and they search the title, they see the satisfaction and they go, oh, there's no mortgage on here.
	It's paid off.
	And then now, whatever that house is worth, you can tap into that with a loan.
	So now I have a house that's worth $230,000.
	Refinance.
	Exactly.
	Right, which I do six times.
	Six times?
	So I refinance the house six different times at the same time.
	There's two houses, by the way.
	There's another house that I bought for $101.
	How were you able to do that without them running your credit and figuring out that you're doing refines at other places?
	Or this is before, this is 2004.
	They can run my credit.
	But how do they not know that you're running...
	Because you said you're refinancing it with multiple companies at the same time, right?
	So if I borrow a mortgage on Monday, when do you think it shows up on my credit?
	It might show up for 45 days.
	It might be a month, 45 days.
	It might be 60 days.
	Not only that, it's only going to be one ding because it's one run on all.
	And not just that, I own a piece of property worth $230,000.
	These people would be like, listen, we can't lend you $230,000.
	We can only lend you $190,000.
	I go, oh!
	Yeah.
	And the interest rate's really high.
	It's going to be like 8%.
	Oh, darn it.
	Well, since I'm not going to make any of those payments and I'm going to borrow five other mortgages and borrow $900,000.
	So you literally would borrow.
	And then again, this is before 2008, right?
	So it's like you were able to go to all these different banks, get a refinance, and then they would all give you the same loan on the same house.
	This still works, by the way.
	Wow.
	It absolutely still works.
	I work with a company called Home Title Lock that monitors people's titles to keep people from me doing this.
	And it happens all the time.
	You're probably one of the best consultants for that, bro.
	Wait a minute.
	So this happens even now?
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Listen, the only thing that's really changed is that now they order a lot more 4506s.
	So they check your income documents a lot more now than they ever did before.
	With the government, with the IRS. They actually file a 4506 and they get a copy of your stuff from the 4506.
	So you can't walk in and say, hey, my W-2 last year was $95,000 because they'll file a 4506 and they'll come back and they'll be like, you didn't even have a job last year.
	So what if someone stole your identity and did this to you?
	How would you stop or, I guess, prevent it from happening or you can't?
	Let's say you were the person that was taken advantage of.
	How would you stop it from happening?
	Well, I mean, most people have notifications on their credit now, right?
	Right.
	But keep in mind, too, I'm not really stealing people's identities.
	I'm making synthetic identities.
	Or a homeless person building their...
	Like, you know, Gary Sullivan is not being notified.
	Yeah, you're right.
	He doesn't have anything.
	They don't even have cell phones back then.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Like, there's no Obama phones.
	Yeah.
	You know?
	So, what ends up happening is...
	I satisfy those loans.
	Yeah, sorry.
	So you get six refinances after you satisfy this loan.
	I borrow $1.3 million on those.
	On that property.
	And I open like 12 bank accounts, right?
	In various names.
	Because you can really only open about three accounts in one person's name before they start asking questions.
	So I've got some of them are corporations I've opened, multiple bank accounts.
	Some are just different people.
	And I deposit that money into those accounts and I start pulling it out.
	And I get like $600,000.
	And then one day I go into a bank.
	He's like, should I say this part?
	You guys are so bad.
	You're so judgmental.
	This one always makes me laugh.
	We don't judge you, bro.
	We don't judge you at all, man.
	So I'm going to tell you something.
	You're good with us.
	Stop.
	I'm going to tell you something.
	For the sake of your audience, not you two.
	Well, you're okay.
	You and this guy.
	Because I'm black?
	Listen, the faces, the I'm talking and he's staring at the screen and he'll be like...
	I'm like, so, okay, so at one point, I refinanced the house several times, right?
	So I'm borrowing money on the house again.
	So I've satisfied a bunch of loans on the house.
	And this is also in the name Gary Sullivan.
	So I'd open up a bunch of names, a bunch of corporations in Gary Sullivan's name using an attorney.
	And so I'm now...
	I'm now, I've refinanced this house, this one house.
	This is a smaller house.
	It's like $110,000 house.
	So I've got maybe a $100,000 loan on it.
	And I've got maybe three or four of them.
	And one of the lenders, a lawyer with one of the lenders calls me.
	Hey, is this Gary Sullivan?
	And he was with Washington Mutual.
	And he goes, this is whatever.
	This is Brad from Washington Mutual.
	I'm like, okay.
	And I'm like, yeah, what's up?
	He said, listen, we have a first mortgage on your property.
	I'm like, okay.
	He said, unfortunately, it appears that we don't have a first mortgage.
	He said, it turns out that we're in second position.
	Now, keep in mind, there's a couple behind them.
	Yeah, of course.
	And he said, and it appears that you borrowed multiple loans.
	And I'm wondering, I'm hoping you have an explanation for this before we file something with the authorities.
	And I go, okay, I said, listen, Brad, And I don't know that his name is Brad, but I go, listen, Brad, I said, listen, I said, have you contacted anybody yet?
	You mentioned the authorities.
	He goes, no.
	I said, have you contacted anybody?
	He goes, no.
	I said, okay, listen, I'm going to go to my lawyers right now, and I'm going to have my lawyer call you, and I assure you we're going to figure out something.
	There's no reason to contact anybody.
	Can you give me about two hours?
	He said, yeah, I'll be here.
	That's fine.
	I said, okay, cool.
	I jump in my car.
	I take off.
	And I go straight to my lawyer.
	I call my lawyer.
	I say, listen, bro.
	I said, I need a meeting with you.
	And I explained what happened over the phone.
	I said, look, I bought a house.
	Cash.
	Not true.
	And I said, I refinanced that house several times.
	He was okay.
	And I said, Washington Mutual just found out that they're not in first position.
	I borrowed like four or five mortgages, and they're all supposed to be first mortgages.
	And Chad, the reason why that's a problem for them is that when it's time to get the money back, they're not going to be the first ones to get the money back.
	So that's why they're pissed off.
	Yeah, the only person that's probably going to ever recuperate any money at all is the guy in first position.
	So that's fine.
	So I go to my...
	I'm a corporate attorney, and I walk in.
	He said, listen, we're in the conference room.
	I set up a meeting with my partner.
	He does criminal law.
	I said, okay.
	So we walk in there.
	We sit down.
	And he says, okay, Gary, tell me what happened.
	I tell him exactly what happened.
	He goes, okay.
	And he said...
	Okay, so this is a creative financing issue, right?
	And I went, you know, of course I'm thinking, well, pretty sure the FBI and Secret Service aren't chasing me for creative financing, but that's fine.
	They don't know this, right?
	Yeah, they don't know anything.
	I mean, they're calling you Gary, so that's what...
	Right, I'm like, okay.
	I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I said, yeah.
	I said, yeah, okay.
	I said, sure, whatever.
	And I said, whatever.
	I need it.
	He goes, do you still have the money?
	I said, I can pay them off.
	Yes, I can.
	He goes, okay.
	And I said, and did he already say he wasn't going to contact him?
	He said, he said he just wants the money.
	I said, so call him up.
	Get him to sign something.
	Agree to pay the money.
	I'll get the money.
	I'll pay him.
	He goes, okay, okay, cool.
	And he says, all right.
	So he calls the guy, the lawyer, and he talks to him.
	And the lawyer says, if you can just give us the money.
	I remember, too, they wanted the points and stuff.
	They're like, it's $104,000.
	And he's like, well, he only borrowed $100,000.
	He's like, yeah, but we also have points.
	We had prepared to sell the loan.
	We have an underwriting fee.
	We have this.
	He said, well, I think that's unreasonable.
	I'm like, the fuck?
	I'm like, what are you doing?
	I want this done.
	He's like, okay, okay.
	So he agrees to have him to pay him off.
	He goes, okay, fine.
	And he says, and so I remember he said, I said, I can go get the loan.
	And I remember the guy wanted me to go to a Washington...
	He goes, go get the cashier's check and bring it to a Washington Mutual.
	Yeah.
	And I was like, I'm not.
	Hell no.
	It wasn't...
	It was Washington Mutual.
	And he goes, yeah, bring it to Washington Mutual.
	I said, I'm not fucking doing that.
	I'll bring you a cashier's check.
	I'm not going into a Washington Mutual.
	Like, what am I, Travis?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Are you going to arrest my Orange County like a retard?
	Yeah.
	So I'm sitting there talking to the two of them, and he says, okay, so you have the money?
	I said, yeah, yeah.
	And he goes, okay.
	He said, well, Gary, we have a problem.
	And I said, what's that?
	And he said, I mean, what happens if these other lenders realize what's going on?
	And I said, oh, he's like, do you have the money?
	Do you intend to pay them back?
	I said, no, no.
	And he goes, well, what if they find out?
	And I went, well, then I leave town.
	Like that, and he goes, and that's what they did.
	Both lawyers were, Gary, Gary, they said, you can't just leave town.
	It's the FBI. Like, they know your name, your social security number.
	They'll find you.
	And I go, you're assuming my name's Gary Sullivan.
	Yeah.
	And the guy, I shit you not.
	You know how you hear people say, like, the guy turned white?
	Yeah.
	That dude turned white.
	The lawyer?
	The lawyer was like, just the blood drained from his face, both of them.
	And he sat there, and they look at each other, and he goes, well, um...
	We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
	I said, exactly.
	My current situation...
	I said, my current problem is paying these people off.
	Let me go get the money.
	I'll bring it back.
	Write up the agreement.
	I said, by the time you get back, I'll have it.
	I'll have the cashier's check.
	He goes, okay.
	I go.
	I get the cashier's check.
	I come back.
	I give it to him.
	We've got to sign an agreement.
	I sign it.
	This is back when they had fax machines.
	Like, they're faxing shit.
	He makes a copy of the check.
	He faxes.
	Stop.
	So...
	So, yeah, so I get the whole thing and I leave.
	So then I'm still pulling money out, right?
	Yeah.
	I pull money out of the bank.
	I've got like $600,000 at this point.
	I end up going into a Washington – no, to a – Wachovia!
	They still have Wachovias?
	Do they still have those?
	That's who else Fargo today.
	I put all these fuckers out of business.
	I've outlived all these things.
	And that's why Mark the Mutual is chased today.
	So I'm just curious, bro.
	How are they not able to find you, the FBI? He's getting there.
	I'm getting there.
	I'll tell you this one story.
	I'll wrap it up.
	But how long has it been?
	How old are you?
	We're in 2005 now.
	No, no, no.
	We're in 04 still.
	No, we're in 2005.
	Early 2005.
	Wachovia has been doing this for about four years now.
	So, at one point, I go into the bank to pull out, like, whatever.
	I don't know what it was.
	Eight grand?
	Walk up to the thing.
	Pull up eight grand.
	So, here's where it happened.
	I had...
	Well, you put...
	Well, hold on.
	We're going back.
	You paid these guys off the 100K. Oh, I paid them.
	They're done.
	Okay.
	Lawyers still...
	What I thought was funny was the guy...
	When I said, you're assuming my name's Gary Sullivan.
	Like, they just...
	Like, I remember thinking, like, these guys have never met anyone like me.
	So, Gary...
	Sorry, Matt.
	Oh, I take all your money on the street.
	I'm just kidding.
	So, at any point, did you think maybe it's time to just get out of Dodge and, like, leave?
	Yeah, but I still only have, what, $600,000?
	$700,000?
	That's a lot of money elsewhere in, I don't know, India or maybe, like, I don't know, somewhere.
	Valley?
	Okay, so the problem is, this is the problem with all these guys.
	They're going to get out.
	They're going to get out, right?
	Yeah.
	The problem is, you've no idea how emboldened you become every time you get over on somebody.
	You feel untouchable.
	Then you go, oh.
	Listen, I've said this many times, and there's just no other way to explain this.
	You can't even describe the feeling you get walking into a bank, giving them a fake ID, fake W-2s, pay stubs, fake documents, and then they cut you a check for $250,000, and they thank you for ripping them off.
	And you walk out and you feel like 007.
	You're just untouchable.
	I've got passports issued by the State Department.
	I'm walking through Customs.
	You know, in and out, you know, boom, you know, they're saying, oh, hey, you know, welcome back to the United States.
	You know, oh, business or pleasure.
	You know, I'm like, you know, so you feel everybody's calling you, hey, Mr.
	Eckert, you know, hey, Mr.
	Johnson, hey, Mr.
	So-and-so.
	You go to the Ritz and everybody at the Ritz is calling you like Michael Eckert.
	His name's not Michael Eckert.
	What do you do?
	But you know how in the Ritz, they call you that.
	Of course, of course.
	So you're just like, like, it feels amazing.
	Amazing.
	You know?
	Like, and I'm not thinking I'm gonna get caught, because every time I do get caught, I talk myself out of it.
	So I'm in the bank, I'm cash, so I had borrowed, like, I had applied for, let's say, six or seven mortgages on this one house.
	I closed a bunch of them.
	One woman from BB&T Bank went on vacation.
	She never ordered the title work.
	So an abstractor goes down, used to be, they don't do this anymore.
	They would go downtown and they'd go through public records and they'd look at the title.
	An abstractor?
	Like an actuary?
	No, like an abstractor.
	An actuary is the person who crunches numbers.
	An abstractor is someone who researches title work.
	So this person goes downtown, they search the title.
	Well, BB&T Bank, the loan officer went on vacation for a week or two, and when she came back, she then ordered the title work.
	So I'd already closed like five loans.
	Oh.
	So this woman goes downtown and sees...
	And she only saw three that had been recorded.
	The other ones are still being mailed.
	You know, because they close them and they mail them in.
	Yeah.
	So she sees three loans have been closed and she knows right away something's wrong.
	Yeah.
	These are all like $190, $190, $190.
	Like, these are all first mortgages.
	How the fuck did this happen when she was there?
	Right.
	And this person, I'm here searching for a first mortgage.
	Yeah.
	Something's wrong.
	Yeah.
	So...
	They immediately...
	And one of those loans was with Wachovia Bank.
	So when I go into Wachovia Bank...
	Wells Fargo.
	I'm sorry, Wells Fargo...
	No.
	No, Wachovia.
	That's today's Wells Fargo.
	Today's name, I believe.
	That's what Wells Fargo's old name was.
	Just like Washington Mutual was now Chase.
	Today.
	Super confusing.
	Okay, so I go into Wachovia to pull money out, and I get out, whatever, $6,000, and I'm waiting for the woman to, she has to call in, because it's a new account, so if you ask for more than $3,000, they have to check.
	But you can check.
	The money's good.
	So I'm waiting, and all of a sudden, a sheriff's deputy reaches over and grabs me by the arm, pulls me, and they handcuff me.
	And I turn around and there's two massive looking guys.
	Like, not like six foot two and skinny, like they look like linebackers.
	And I'm like, and they go, you know, Mr.
	Sullivan, we're detaining you.
	They called you by your fake name?
	Yeah, well, I was pulling money out in the fake account, and he has my ID. He took my ID. Well, that's a good thing they didn't know who you were yet.
	Right.
	So they bring me into the manager's office, sit me down, and they said, you know, we're waiting for the detective.
	And I said, what's going on?
	He said, well, all I knew was we're supposed to hold you, and we're waiting for a detective to come.
	And I'm like, okay.
	Is this North Carolina still?
	No, South Carolina.
	You're in South Carolina?
	No, I'm living in North Carolina, but I'm doing the scam in South Carolina.
	So I remember thinking...
	Just state locals, no big deal, sheriffs, deputies.
	That's how I felt.
	I thought, okay, I actually thought maybe the FBI was showing up.
	At that point in my life, I don't know the difference between an agent, an officer, a detective.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I don't know that.
	You're thinking it's all the same.
	Yeah.
	So I'm waiting for FBI to show up, and this guy walks in.
	He's probably in his late 20s, early 30s, and he walks in, and he says, hey, listen, Mr.
	Sullivan, he said I'm agent whatever his name was from the Richland County Sheriff's Department, and he says, or police department, I forget.
	He's like, we got, and he's in a suit and tie.
	He could have been an FBI agent, but he wasn't.
	But he said, we're investigating a complaint from Wachovia.
	And he said, apparently you have three mortgages on your house.
	And I go, is that illegal?
	And he goes, you know, I don't know.
	And I remember thinking, like, I'm walking out of here.
	I'm walking out of here.
	And then he sits down and he calls the guy from Wachowi on the phone, the head of their fraud department.
	And he explains this guy's running what's called a shotgunning scam.
	He closed these loans so quickly and is removing the money that we couldn't catch it.
	So...
	Over the next five minutes, I explained to him, and I'm going to, because it was a lot of back and forth, like he's throwing out things and I'm answering, I'm like this.
	Okay, so literally, so they got you there detained, two sheriff's deputies are there, the detective, and he has this fraud investigator from the bank talking.
	Who knows 100% what's going on.
	Yeah, so the fraud investigator knows.
	He's not wrong.
	The detective is like, what the fuck?
	He's like, yeah, they probably just got called, and okay, now this makes sense.
	He doesn't understand what's happening.
	So we're going back and forth.
	Why is he pulling out so much money?
	And I'm saying, because I work for a...
	Well, actually, I had a...
	Every single one of us questions.
	At this point, it's not a construction company anymore because it's a new scam.
	Now it's a labor company.
	And I said, I'm a site manager for a labor company.
	We have these guys that lay sod and do all kinds of stuff.
	We drop them off and they get their checks cut.
	And if they go to cash them, it's like 10%.
	And I know the checks are good, so I just cash them for them.
	And he's like, I don't know if that's illegal.
	He's like, no, no, that's not illegal.
	I'm like, oh, okay.
	Like, you're a nice guy.
	I know.
	So, and then as we're talking, I remember at one point, he was calling me Mr.
	Sullivan, Mr.
	Sullivan, and I start calling- The fraud investigator on the speaker.
	No, no.
	The detective.
	Okay, that's it.
	And I start calling him by his first name, like Richard, and he starts calling me Gary.
	So now we're Richard and Gary.
	- Yeah. - We're good, we're good, like we're friends.
	Yeah.
	It's a friendly thing.
	This guy.
	This guy on the phone.
	Who's this guy?
	Where's he from?
	Is he from California?
	Is that where they're from?
	You're very good at putting out information, I want to say temperature, and moving the conversation in a certain direction.
	You're good at that.
	Manipulation, I think that's how the prosecutor put it.
	I don't want to say it, but okay.
	I don't want to say it.
	So we're going back and forth.
	You're a South Carolina good old boy.
	He's like, what the fuck are we talking about over here?
	He's a drug dealer.
	What the fuck?
	You know what I'm saying?
	They're like, what the fuck is this mortgage fraud?
	You know what I'm saying?
	Like, yeah.
	So we're going back and forth, back and forth.
	So at some point, so I'll sum up the conversation.
	The conversation ends up being that I'm committing fraud.
	Here's how I'm doing it.
	And I sat there and he's like, these are all first mortgages.
	And I'm like, they're not first mortgages.
	Like, I read all those documents.
	None of those said first mortgages.
	No mortgage says first mortgage, by the way.
	It's the placement that determines if it's a first or second or third mortgage.
	So you can have a HELOC If it's the only loan on your property, that's a first mortgage.
	It's a HELOC. You can borrow a second mortgage, pay off your first.
	Guess what that second is now?
	It's a first mortgage.
	So I'm like, I read all those documents.
	And he's like, well, what did you do?
	And I said, well, I mean, I got a first mortgage from Wachovia.
	I have to say that because he knows they have a first mortgage.
	I got it from Wachovia.
	I told the girl at Wachowi I was trying to borrow like half a million dollars because I want to flip properties.
	And he goes, that's right.
	You have another property.
	I said, right.
	I'm like, oh my God, he knows about the other property.
	And I'm like, right.
	I said, we're putting in a pool.
	We're going to put on a roof.
	I said, I'm adding an addition.
	I said, I'm buying another property next week.
	I'm trying to renovate that one and flip that one.
	I'm like, it's not like I don't have the laborers.
	And he's like, right.
	He goes, okay.
	And I said, so I got a first mortgage.
	I said, I told her I needed more than just the money she was giving me out of the refi.
	I needed like half a million dollars.
	And she said, I got a friend who can give you a second mortgage.
	She sent me to her friends, which was like, whatever, you know, Rock Loan.
	I don't know what that, Rock Mortgage.
	Okay, so I go there.
	They gave me a second mortgage.
	And I said, then they sent me, she sent me, she said, I can get you a HELOC. She sent me to SunTrust.
	I got a SunTrust loan.
	And I said, a HELOC was SunTrust.
	I said, that's what those three mortgages are.
	And this guy on the phone is going nuts.
	That's not true.
	Their first mortgage.
	I've already spoken with them.
	And so he's yelling and screaming.
	And the guy looks at me, the detective looks at me, and I go, I said, bro, I said, what makes more sense?
	I said, a guy that works for a labor company, and I'm, oh, by the way, by this point, I said, he said, you're not under arrest.
	I go, great, could you take the handcuffs off?
	I go, I really feel like I'm under arrest.
	He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, take those off him.
	So I have my hands free now.
	So I reach in my pocket, I pull out my business card, and it says labor on demand.
	It's got all the phone numbers you can call.
	I've got a, what do they call it, an HQ that answers the phone.
	They'll reroute it, the whole thing.
	I got an address you can mail to.
	I can rent an office, whatever.
	So I hand him the card.
	I said, what makes more sense?
	A guy that works for a labor company just convinced three national banks, I said, to lend him half a million dollars, I said, or a couple of loan, I said, a few loan officers got together to make a, I said, to make a big loan broker fee.
	I said, bro, I wouldn't know how to do this, I said, if I tried.
	And he looked at me and he goes, listen, I don't think this guy would know how to do this if he tried.
	And this guy's going fucking nuts.
	Yeah, yeah, on the phone.
	And then he screams, this was the icing on the cake.
	It's a scam.
	I'm telling you it's a scam.
	He goes, look at his ID. It starts with 000.
	It's a fake ID. And the detective says, listen, he said, he goes, it's a real, keep in mind, he's got, it's not on a speakerphone, it's like this.
	So I can't, I kind of hear, but I can't hear.
	You just hear yelling.
	You don't know specifically what he's saying.
	So then he says, no, he said, listen, he said, this is Gary Sullivan.
	It's a real South Carolina ID. I ran him through NCIC. He said, this is Gary Sullivan.
	And I went, and I went...
	Well, yeah, because you had done the work with getting the social security numbers and everything else.
	Yeah.
	I have everything.
	Yeah, it's real.
	Yeah.
	Now, Gary Sullivan, by the way, I would like to mention, had been arrested twice in Vegas for prostitution.
	So the detective now thinks, the detective now thinks, I've been arrested twice for prostitution.
	What?
	So when he said...
	Well, when you run NCIC, it gives you the criminal history.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So when he said NCIC, I thought, fuck.
	So he says, it's Gary Sullivan.
	And our IDs start with 000.
	And I go, I look at him, I go, bro, come on, now I'm not Gary Sullivan?
	I go, come on, what are we doing here?
	And he goes, I know, Gary, I know.
	And he said, listen, he said, I think, he tells the guy, he goes, I think you guys have a problem at the bank.
	He loses it.
	Actually, at one point, I remember he had to tell him, you need to lower your voice.
	Calm down.
	He says, I don't even know what to charge him with right now.
	He said, I'm going to take him downtown.
	I'm going to have him fill out a police report, and I'm going to talk to the district attorney, and I'll see if we can prosecute him.
	He said, I don't even know what to do.
	I have to talk to her.
	I'm waiting for a call back.
	Okay, fine.
	Hang up the phone.
	Leave, and I'll tell you this, I usually skip this part, but since I, so, as I'm leaving...
	So I let you go.
	Well, yeah, you're not under arrest, yeah.
	He says that, well, he wants me to follow him back to the police station, which, of course, I say, no problem, I'll do that.
	So he says, do you have your ID or your driver's license?
	And I said, well, he goes, do you have a driver's license?
	Do you only have an ID? I go, yeah.
	He said, I do, and it's in Vegas.
	I said, and I'm in Nevada.
	Nevada, whatever.
	I said, in Nevada, I have one.
	And he goes, he said, is it valid?
	I said, should be.
	I fucking no idea.
	This is a homeless prostitute.
	I don't know.
	And he goes, so the detective, I'm sorry, the deputy goes, I'll check.
	Turns around, walks to his car.
	We're waiting.
	I fucking have no idea what's going on.
	How'd you even know to say Nevada?
	Because the prostitution thing?
	Because I met him in Vegas.
	Oh, okay.
	I don't know if he's got an idea.
	But you didn't know if this person had been arrested for prostitution?
	Or you didn't know?
	No, I did know.
	When I surveyed him, one of the questions is, have you been arrested?
	And he told me for prostitution.
	Okay, so you knew.
	And I was like, oh, okay, so you're, he is, I'm a prostitute.
	He said, but it's not a felony here.
	And I was like, oh, okay.
	Wait, so he was selling his booty cheeks?
	Yeah, when I showed up, when I showed up to survey these guys, look, you're driving through Vegas, there's two white guys, there's not a ton of white guys in my age group that are homeless, right?
	So I see these two white guys sitting on a bench, and I'm like, boom, stop the car, I jump out, let me survey them, walk up, survey them, and during the course of surveying that guy, he says, I said, one of the questions, has he ever been arrested?
	He goes, yeah, he said, for prostitution.
	I remember I went, Do you mean solicitation?
	And he goes, no, prostitution.
	He said, I offered to blow an undercover cop for like 20 bucks.
	And he said, and I went, oh.
	I said, okay, yeah.
	And I was like, okay.
	So I just keep writing, whatever.
	Here's your 20 bucks.
	I'm good.
	I get in my car with Becky and we take off.
	But the point is, is now these guys, the one guy...
	Takes the card.
	Yeah.
	You have to get guys in your age group so it would match up because you were using your real pictures and everything, getting social security numbers.
	I'm getting their birth certificate.
	Yeah, you're getting everything, yeah.
	And so the ID that you had was legitimate.
	It actually was.
	Oh, it's legitimate.
	I got it from South Carolina.
	Yeah, that's why the cop was like, dude, it's him.
	It's a legitimate ID. That's why he looked so bad.
	That's why he looked like now you, like, if I didn't know if you were, if you didn't know what you were talking about before, now I know.
	You just told me this is a fake ID. It's a fucking real ID. Yeah.
	It's a real ID. You got a problem at the bank.
	You guys are fucking up right now.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	So, the cop comes back in.
	That's the key, to have legit documents.
	Oh, yeah.
	I always transfer out my fake ones for legit as quick as possible.
	Yeah.
	Listen, I... You would use fraudulent backups, but everything was legit.
	Okay.
	Bro, this is kind of scary, bro.
	Smart.
	Does he go for the police in the feds?
	Very smart, bro.
	Very, very smart.
	That's scary, bro.
	Listen, just look at the judgment in this guy's face when I say this.
	I one time stole a guy's identity.
	And I illegally had his name changed.
	What?
	Yeah, you can do that too.
	For 1500 bucks, I had the guy, remember I said Eckert, I had Michael Eckert's last name changed to Michael Johnson.
	Nice.
	Just to see if I wanted to see if I could do it.
	Like, what's the process?
	So you give $1,500 to an attorney.
	You get to go through the whole process.
	I saw how it was done.
	I thought, okay, cool.
	I've done it before.
	Is it greed or ego, or is it both, that just drives people to go further to see what they can do?
	I was just curious.
	Okay.
	I was super curious about that.
	By that point, I used to always say, like, oh, it was greed.
	Like, well, you know, I needed the money.
	Okay, you needed the money.
	But then you had $200,000.
	And then that wasn't enough.
	So then it was half a million, and then it was a million, and then it's two million, then it's three million.
	And it's like, what the fuck are you doing, bro?
	Why are you still fucking stealing money?
	You don't need the money.
	You keep telling me, oh, I need the money.
	You don't need it anymore.
	You could take three million dollars, invest it in real estate, and you'll be fine.
	You can make fucking 30 grand a month.
	What are you doing now?
	Now it's just so easy.
	And, you know, every time you do it, it's just such a rush.
	And it's so amazing.
	And that's so cliche to say.
	But I don't know what else to say other than just fucking arrogance, you know?
	You're being honest.
	Yeah.
	So, okay, so he says, so he's running your ID in the thing with Las Vegas.
	He comes back.
	He comes back and he says, yeah, he's got a, he has a Nevada driver's license.
	And what's so funny is at some point when I say, yeah, I'm from Nevada, they all looked at each other and kind of like, So I had a feeling like all these fuckers thought I was a homeless prostitute.
	They all think I was just like, fuck.
	So anyway, when he comes back in and he says, yeah, he's got a valid driver's license.
	And he says, okay.
	He said, it's good.
	He said, yeah, yeah, it's valid.
	He goes, well, it says he's 5'10".
	And they all kind of look at me and I go, fellas with a good pair of shoes.
	And they all go, follow us, Gary.
	I get in my car.
	Because Matt's like 5'6".
	That's why.
	Yeah, I'm like 5'.
	Like, there's no way.
	How tall he is?
	5'6".
	Yeah.
	He's like 5'6".
	Listen, he's at least a foot taller than me.
	I couldn't even stand next to him in the oven.
	Dog!
	Yeah, so like, yeah, this, yeah, five, six, yeah.
	So there, yeah, yeah.
	Good pair of shoes.
	- Nope.
	- Wow.
	- Don't! - Yeah.
	- Yeah! - Give it up Gary! - Yeah! - Give it up Gary! - Give it up Gary! - Give it up Gary! - Yeah, go ahead.
	- They, listen, so they laughed about it, yeah.
	You just said, hey, just get a good pair of shoes.
	I get in my car, I fall on back to the police station.
	I fall on back to the police station.
	You should have worn some Dior's.
	I go into the police department.
	I fill out the police report.
	He talks to his sergeant or whatever.
	At some point, I was sitting and they had like cubicles.
	And he's like, hey, he said, I can't leave you in my cubicle.
	I have to talk to my lieutenant, get her to sign off.
	He said, I can't leave you in the cubicle.
	He said, do you mind waiting in the hallway?
	I said, no problem.
	I go in the hallway.
	My Secret Service poster is in the hallway.
	They got all these posters.
	It was the only one that was in color.
	Everything else was black and white.
	They're all just copies of copies.
	There's rapists.
	There's fucking car thieves.
	There's burglars.
	And then mine is up there.
	This is, I guess, a little bit of an in-the-weeds question, but I've got to ask because of my background.
	So were you being investigated by both the FBI and Secret Service?
	Because the first time you got jammed up, it was FBI, right?
	In Tampa.
	In Tampa.
	So in Tampa, Orlando, Clearwater, that's all FBI's investigating.
	Okay.
	Secret Service is...
	Got you in the Carolinas.
	And Georgia.
	And Georgia.
	So that's how they're investigating.
	That's where they're investigating.
	Okay.
	And keep in mind, neither one of them wants to give up jurisdiction.
	Yeah.
	So you basically had two...
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you had two open cases on you in different districts.
	I end up having four cases.
	So I have Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and it ends up being Tennessee, because what happens is I go in there, I wait in the hallway, he comes to me, and he says, listen, he says...
	Oh, going back to the story now.
	Yeah, yeah, we're back.
	So he goes, talks to his lieutenant, and then he comes back to you.
	You're waiting out there, and you said your poster's on the wall.
	Yeah.
	Now, you know, he walks up behind me.
	Did you freak out?
	Why did you run out right then?
	I've had people say that before.
	You ever been in a police station?
	Yeah.
	Do you have any idea how many fucking doors are in a police station?
	You don't walk through.
	You have to punch in a code here.
	To get in the elevator, you gotta punch in a code.
	Punch in a code.
	Like, I'm not walking out of this place.
	So they brought you to a secured area.
	Okay.
	So there's no way.
	Because trust me, I immediately thought, like, fuck.
	Like, is there an exit?
	I'm not getting out of here.
	And did it have under your real name, Matt Cox?
	Oh, it was Matt.
	Listen, one time, the Secret Service, when I got caught, they told me that I had gone to a closing one time.
	And I remember the closing because I remember the lawyer had come out Opened up the file and said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and he starts disclosing to me and he slides the document in front of me.
	He looks at me and he goes, hold on one second.
	This was also Gary Sullivan.
	He goes, hold on a second, Mr.
	Sullivan.
	Closes the document, takes the file, which is my file.
	So that's why I remembered.
	I thought it was, I was like...
	What the fuck is going on?
	Walks in the back.
	He had my Secret Service's Most Wanted poster in his thing.
	But by that point, keep in mind, I've got hair grafts.
	I've got a nose job.
	Teeth done, yup.
	I've got teeth, everything.
	I'm in a shirt and tie.
	If you look at my, if you were to pull up that image of me, I look insane.
	I got my hair parted.
	I'm super balding.
	It's parted like, and I'm making this face in the picture like the Joker.
	Like I'm like, heh.
	Like it's crazy looking.
	And so he sees it and he looks at it and he told the Secret Service later, he said, I recognize them, but when I got back here and I looked at it, this guy was wanted out of Georgia.
	And this guy, he said, I looked at the mortgage application.
	He had just moved from Florida.
	And he'd worked for the same company for five years.
	And this guy was just recently, like, this was a few months old.
	He's like, so he couldn't have been the same guy.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	I know that doesn't make sense.
	So it worked out for you.
	Because it also said identity theft.
	All that work that you did, it helped you out.
	Yeah, it did.
	Okay.
	So, you know, he goes back.
	I signed the documents.
	He cuts me a check for like $180,000.
	Okay.
	So he had his suspicions, but it didn't work out because you had altered your appearance.
	Isn't that crazy?
	We've seen before people alter their appearances and move to different countries.
	Right?
	Yeah, we have, yeah.
	Yeah, we have, yeah.
	So going back, okay, so you're there in the police station.
	Right.
	So he walks up to me.
	He says, hey, Gary.
	He said, we can go.
	He walks me out.
	I go to get my car.
	Keep in mind...
	Becky, when I left from the bank and went to the police station, she had called me over and over again.
	She said, they just raised you to number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list.
	And I have to explain to her, look, there's a cop behind me.
	There's a cop in front of me.
	I'm going to the police station.
	I was just handcuffed.
	I talked my way out of it.
	She's like, get on the interstate, get on the interstate.
	I'm like, I'm not getting on the interstate.
	And what's funny is every time I would go into a bank, she would be like, what if you get arrested?
	I'd say, if I get arrested, you go get me a lawyer.
	I said, because I'm going to be arrested with a real identity, a real ID. And I said, they're not going to run – they'll take my prints, but they're not going to run them through APHIS because they used to charge – 20 years ago, they used to charge – Automated fingerprint identification system.
	I'm surprised you know.
	Okay, well, you know what?
	You're a process.
	You're going to know that.
	You're a process.
	You should know in my head like, how does he know about APHIS? Okay, sorry.
	20 years ago, the system – it had been out for a little bit, maybe five or ten years.
	But here's what they were doing with sheriff's departments and police stations.
	They charged them for it.
	So when you ran it, they charged you for it.
	And so what they would do is they were only running people whose identities were in question.
	My identity's not in question.
	My name's Gary Sullivan, Michael Eckert, you know, anybody, you know, Walter Holcomb, whoever I am, that's the...
	I got plenty of identities.
	So I said, they will not run me through APHIS. I said, you get me a lawyer, you get me out on bond as quick as possible.
	I said, I'll be arrested for something stupid like wire fraud or checks or grand theft auto.
	I'm sorry, grand theft.
	Larceny, some shit like that.
	Larceny, something stupid.
	So the key is to get out on bond as quickly as possible so that your fingerprints don't come back later on.
	And take off.
	Yeah.
	Because it would take time.
	Assuming they even paid for it.
	Right.
	Assuming they even, if it wasn't a question.
	Now it's automated.
	But that, I mean, yeah, this is what, 05?
	So this makes sense.
	And you know how, the only reason I knew that was because of that guy, Steve Sutton, had told me that.
	Because he worked in the prison.
	I mean, he worked in the jail.
	Steve Sutton.
	Steve Sutton was the sheriff's deputy that told me to take off.
	Okay.
	He had told me before.
	Like, he would tell me every once in a while that they let somebody out.
	Yeah.
	That was actually wanted because they didn't want to pay the fee and they found out later that he was someone else.
	Exactly.
	And I was like, what, they don't run them?
	He's like, nah, because the guy had a driver's license that had been issued.
	He was some good information.
	Wow.
	He gave me some good stuff.
	Where's he now?
	Steve?
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	He's still a deputy.
	I'm shocked.
	No, he's not a deputy.
	He was a deputy for about four or five years.
	He quit.
	Didn't get fired.
	Oh, no.
	You know what?
	He did get fired.
	You know why?
	Because I looked it up.
	I actually did a Freedom of Information Act on him.
	He was caught multiple times with dip for tobacco.
	Chewing tobacco, yeah.
	So he had tobacco in the jail.
	You're not allowed to have tobacco in a jail.
	Oh, he was, well, okay, yeah.
	If he's a sheriff's deputy, yeah, so he probably was doing on the road and going to the jails as well.
	He was doing both.
	Okay.
	It's weird in Florida here.
	They do both.
	So, like, if you're a sheriff's deputy, you can either be on the road or you can be in the jail.
	If you're in the jail, obviously, you've got stricter rules.
	You can't be on the jail.
	Or you could get in trouble and go back to the jail.
	Yeah, because that's considered contraband.
	Typically, they make you work in the jail for a couple years.
	Like, when you first get there, sometimes some counties will make you work, like, hey, you've got to work two years in the jail.
	You know, it's a gradual thing.
	That tells me he got in trouble or he might have been under investigation.
	That's why they put him back in jail.
	But he didn't go...
	He is on my indictment.
	He's his initials, but he's unnamed.
	He never got in trouble.
	That's probably why he...
	The point is that...
	So when I get back in my car, this deputy lets me get in my car.
	I'm sorry, deputy.
	The detective lets me get in my car.
	Becky's screaming and the phone's blowing up.
	I pick up the phone and I'm like, and I remember too, because on the way there, I was like, listen, don't worry about it.
	If I get arrested, get me out on...
	She goes, I'm not getting you out on bond.
	I'm not going to risk everything I've got.
	To get you out of my...
	She's sitting on $600,000 or $700,000.
	Yeah.
	I'm not giving...
	I'm not going to risk everything.
	I'll leave.
	She's like, get on the interstate.
	I can't get on the interstate.
	There's two cops behind me.
	She's like, run!
	I'm like, I can't run.
	I'm not a...
	They followed you out?
	No, this was when I was on my way to the police station.
	She had called.
	Oh, before, prior.
	Okay, okay.
	But you got released.
	Typically, I like to say I'm better at telling the story when I'm not being constantly berated with questions.
	Sorry.
	That's why I'm going back and forth to explain it.
	The bottom line is this.
	I get in my car.
	I grab the phone.
	Remember, she said, I'm not getting you out.
	The first thing I say is, you fucking Because you're going to leave me in there.
	And she's like, oh, I'm in my car right now.
	I'm on my way to get...
	I go, bullshit.
	You're lying.
	Come on.
	You're more like you're packing your stuff to leave.
	And so I scream at her because she was...
	At this point, she had relocated to Texas.
	Yeah, because we were wrapping up the scam.
	I mean, we've got $600,000 or $700,000.
	So I got another week and I'll have the rest of the money.
	But now, obviously, I can't.
	So I end up going to two more banks, get a little bit of money out.
	A third bank, they recognize me and go to call the police.
	So I know something's wrong.
	So I immediately jump in my car.
	I get on the interstate.
	I drive back to Charlotte.
	I'm terrified now because, obviously, I know they're putting it together.
	They're gonna put the South Carolina scam together very quickly.
	It's unraveling.
	I'm sure they're gonna figure this out.
	And they're gonna know, even if they don't know who I am, they're gonna figure out that it's a scam.
	They're gonna put it together like this is a scam.
	Once they start looking into pulling W-2s, pay stubs, making phone calls, I'm not answering calls anymore.
	It's gonna unravel.
	So I take the little bit of money I have, maybe 30, 40 grand, Becky's got all the money.
	She's already in Houston.
	I pack up everything in a U-Haul van.
	I drive to Houston.
	This is after the detectives released you, right?
	After they released me.
	So I drive to Houston.
	We unload the U-Haul van, including all of the alternate identities that I have, because we figure we're just going to lay low for another couple months before we try and do some kind of a scam, whatever.
	Let's just put everything in the storage unit.
	We go on our way back to the apartment that she's rented.
	In the middle of downtown Houston, some big high-rise.
	We're driving back.
	We get into a huge argument.
	By the way, Becky is bipolar.
	I've already gotten her on—by this point, I've gotten her on Zoloft.
	She won't take it.
	She takes it for three months.
	She thinks she's okay.
	Then she stops taking it again.
	And this has happened over and over again.
	She's had the cops call me multiple times.
	Oh, yeah.
	Two o'clock in the morning, she comes home drunk from a bar.
	Like, I'm not even sleeping with her.
	I don't want anything.
	I got her her own apartment.
	She comes over.
	Hey, tries to have sex with me.
	I'm like, look, I want you to date someone else.
	I want to get rid of you.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, and I won't have sex with her.
	She starts screaming.
	What?
	I'm not good enough for you.
	I have to jump up, grab a bag, and run out of the apartment because I know the cops are coming.
	If the cops show up for a domestic violence call in Charlotte, North Carolina at that time, somebody has to go to jail.
	Or Texas.
	Okay.
	So, yeah.
	Well, I don't know about Texas.
	Because you were Texas at this point, right?
	No, no.
	I'm saying this has been happening.
	Oh, okay.
	Been happening.
	She's crazy.
	What I'm trying to establish is she's insane.
	Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
	So we drive all the way back.
	I drive to Texas, to Houston, put my shit up.
	Getting to a huge argument with her.
	She's got all the money.
	All my stuff is now in a storage unit.
	I have an empty U-Haul van.
	We get into an argument over, and I said, look, I'm done.
	I just want to split the money up.
	She makes the argument, which you're going to say I'm stupid and crazy and everything else, and I get it, that she should just keep the money.
	She's like, because you can go off and do this again.
	I can't.
	I don't know how to do it.
	I can't do this.
	I can't pull this off.
	I don't know everything that you know.
	I can't do it.
	And so we argue back and forth, and it was just a hilarious argument.
	I'm not going to get into the whole thing.
	But, you know, because I'm, anyway, she's like, oh, at one point I'm like, I'll just take that shit.
	I said, I'll just take all the money.
	And she goes, she goes, she said, I'll just take it and leave.
	She goes, in what?
	She goes, that U-Haul van?
	She goes, that they're going to be looking for?
	She's like, I'll call the cops.
	And I remember I said, I take all the fucking money.
	I don't need that U-Haul van.
	And she's like, you'll never make it out of this building.
	And I'm sitting there like, so we go back and forth, back and forth.
	And I'm like, what do you think is fair?
	And she says $100,000.
	And I thought about it and I went, okay.
	So I leave her with like $600,000.
	I take a hundred grand.
	I take a hundred grand.
	I get into the U-Haul van.
	I take off.
	I actually called the FBI. I actually called home.
	I'm gonna wrap this up.
	I called home several times.
	I won't get into this whole conversation.
	You're good, you're good, go ahead.
	I call home several times.
	So I call to see my mom, to talk to my mom, to talk to my couple of people that I knew, you know, what's happening with this investigation.
	I called my ex-wife, the whole thing.
	And, you know, they're telling me what's going on, and this one chick, Susan, says, look, you know, we've all talked to the FBI. Like, you need to talk to the FBI. Try and turn yourself in.
	She's like, Matt, I mean, maybe you'll go to prison, like, a camp or something for a couple years.
	She's like, they have these camps.
	Like, they're not scary.
	It's for white-collar guys.
	Like, you'll be okay.
	They don't even have fences, like she knows all about.
	I'm like, okay.
	She goes, can you just call the FBI agent?
	Her name is Candace Calderon.
	And I'm like...
	She's like, at least hear them out.
	And I thought, okay.
	And I'm in a desperate situation, bro.
	I have no IDs.
	None.
	Oh.
	She's got all...
	Yeah, I have nothing.
	And the only...
	I do have an ID. The only ID I have...
	Is an ID, it's that I know the car I was driving was in an ID. The tag, it was registered in an ID for a guy with a driver's license.
	But I now know they know what that is because they saw the car I'm driving.
	They've got the tag number.
	Like, they're going to know.
	Once they pull up the picture, they're going to know it's me.
	It was a North Carolina ID. So they're going to be like, it was Michael Eckert, which was now Michael Johnson.
	But they're going to know that's the same, that's Gary Sullivan.
	Yeah.
	And they're gonna, so I already know I'm just, I'm fucked.
	They're looking for this guy by now.
	So...
	So you got $100,000, no IDs.
	You didn't bother to even take them from the U-Haul or anything.
	You just wanted to get out of there.
	No, they were in the storage unit.
	She's got the key.
	I just want, I don't just want to be gone, bro.
	You just want to be gone.
	Because, listen, I've tried to leave her several times and she would call up on the phone and cry and beg and plead and I'm just...
	Throwing the police, shit like that.
	Well, she wouldn't even throw it.
	She'd just be like, I fucked up.
	I'm sorry.
	I love you.
	Please don't do this.
	Don't leave me.
	You promised you wouldn't leave me.
	And I did.
	I said, I won't leave you.
	But I didn't know you were insane.
	So, you know, so and I would turn around and come back.
	So I just I remember.
	So this time when I left, I actually put the phone on the counter and just walked out because I thought I can't.
	I'm done.
	Get in the car.
	I'm driving.
	I call back home.
	Susan tells me call the FBI agent.
	I call the FBI agent.
	Her name is Candace Calderon.
	And, you know, she picks up the phone and I'm like, hey, this is Matt Cox.
	She's like, oh, wow.
	Hey, Matt, how are you?
	And I'm like, hey, it was her cell phone.
	And she said, how'd you get this number?
	I said, Susan Barker told me to call you.
	And she's like, okay.
	I said, did you need something?
	And she goes, yeah, I need you to turn yourself in.
	I said, well, that's not going to happen.
	And she said, well, don't be hasty.
	She goes, let's talk about this.
	And so we start having this conversation back and forth, back and forth.
	And so, you know, so that I don't get into the whole conversation.
	But basically she was – she's extremely arrogant.
	I'm extremely arrogant.
	I'm cocky.
	She's cocky.
	She starts saying stuff like, oh, we're going to – you are cocky.
	She's like, yeah, we are going to catch you eventually.
	She kept calling me sweetie.
	Listen, sweetie, we know we're going to catch you eventually.
	And I was like, yeah.
	I said, well, it's taking you so long.
	Because you've been on the run for a few years now.
	I've been on the run for about two years.
	And she's like, we're 90% sure where you are.
	I said, only 100% counts.
	I said, look, if you want to have this conversation in person, I said, we need to work out a deal.
	We can mouth off to each other back and forth.
	She says, you're going to come back and see somebody in Tampa, or somebody's going to pull you over and they're going to recognize you.
	Some cop's going to ask for your ID and you're not going to be able to provide it.
	And she's going back and forth.
	I said, whoa, whoa, whoa.
	I said, listen, listen, listen.
	I said, let me sum this up.
	Nobody's going to recognize me.
	I said, I've had multiple plastic surgeries.
	I said, I have multiple fake IDs.
	I said, I have multiple passports.
	I've been in and out of the country.
	I've been pulled over.
	I said, I got so many tickets in one guy's name, I had to go to fucking traffic school as him.
	And it's true.
	Wait, telling an FBI agent that, isn't that like...
	I mean, is it stupid?
	Yeah, but I'm cocky, right?
	So she's cocky.
	You can't touch him at this point, remember?
	So I feel like I'm perfect, right?
	Wait, can't it check his phone?
	Like, his phone call?
	And I had that conversation.
	It's funny because...
	Probably broke the phone every time.
	She called.
	Well, what she did was she called.
	She said, I'm going to call the U.S. attorney and see what I can work out.
	And I said, okay.
	I said, I'll call you back.
	She goes, well, just leave your phone on.
	And I said, nah, you're probably triangulating this or something.
	And she goes, she said, just get over yourself.
	She goes, you're not that important.
	And I remember thinking, yeah, who the fuck do you think you are?
	She like really humbled me, right?
	I was like, God, yeah.
	I was like...
	I said, nah, you know what?
	I said, I'll call you back in a couple hours.
	So I just, I shut it off, right?
	Took the battery out like stupid, probably doesn't do anything.
	You know, sat there for about two hours.
	Well, when I ordered my discovery, my Freedom of Information Act, she called the U.S. Marshals.
	They tracked the phone number back, found out it was a virgin phone that I'd paid for at a gas station.
	And they ordered from Baton Rouge.
	They immediately dispatched a couple U.S. Marshals who drove straight to where I was.
	And I sat.
	Woo!
	I actually sat there for the two hours.
	It had a Subway attached, you know, Subway restaurant attached to it, sandwich shop.
	I sat there for two hours.
	So it's not like- Did they find you?
	Well, no, because it was, we were pretty far away.
	Like it was several hours drive.
	So, and I'm sure that all that took some time.
	Oh, okay, for them to actually get out there and everything.
	You were gone.
	Right.
	At some point, I get in my truck, my U-Haul truck, so I'm bouncing around in an empty U-Haul truck driving down the interstate, and I call her back, and we're talking, and she tells me, she told me, I think she told me seven years.
	Seven years.
	You come back to Tampa, and it's seven years.
	But you have to cooperate against everybody.
	And by this point, I already know everybody's already cooperating against me.
	So I really don't have that big of an issue with that.
	Even though I'm telling her, like, I'm not going to do that.
	And she's also saying, like, my ex-wife.
	And I'm like, my ex-wife doesn't know anything.
	And she's like, we don't believe that.
	And so we're going back and forth.
	And I'm like, listen, you understand it's not...
	She's like, yeah, it covers everything.
	I go, does it cover everything like Georgia?
	Does it cover, like, there's some stuff you don't know about?
	And she said, no, no, it covers, it covers, she's like, yeah, it covers everything.
	I just need you to come back to Tampa.
	She kept saying, come back to Tampa.
	So she kept dodging the question, and at some point, I kind of backed her into a corner.
	I said, listen to me.
	I said, you won't seem to answer this question.
	Does this include Atlanta, Georgia, and other things in other states that you don't know about yet?
	And she says...
	All I can speak for is Tampa.
	Because she only called the U.S. attorney in Tampa.
	And I go, oh, damn.
	Like, I mean, you're good.
	Like, you.
	And she's like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
	She said, let me call the U.S. attorney in Atlanta.
	We can work something.
	I said, nah.
	I said, you know, I wouldn't believe you if you told me the fucking water was wet.
	And I said, nah, we're done.
	And I chucked the phone out.
	Because you can still be held liable for the other stuff, guys.
	That's why.
	Because I'm thinking...
	All right, this thing is talking to me on the phone.
	I'm keeping my phone as long as possible.
	I find this location.
	That's what I would do if I was a feds.
	Right, but this was a long time ago.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Sophisticated.
	Yeah.
	Like, this is not, like, now they probably punch it up and be like, oh, he's traveling right now on I-75.
	He's at such and such.
	This is a long time.
	Yeah, this is not.
	They weren't that sophisticated or that quick.
	Got it.
	So I throw it out.
	The phone, you know, goes dead.
	I go all the way back to Charlotte.
	I park my, the tribe, return the truck for some reason.
	Return the truck.
	And then I go and I get my car, which was parked in the parking garage, like the multi, you know, those big car parking garage, right?
	Well, you're in Miami.
	They're everywhere here.
	Anyway, so I get in that car, and I remember when I drove out of the parking garage, I remember thinking, I'm okay.
	I'm good.
	They don't have me.
	I just got to go get some—I just got to go service—I'm sorry.
	Get some more properties.
	I just got to go survey some more—I said service some homeless people.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Not good, bro.
	Not a good look.
	Big pause.
	Survey some homeless people.
	And so I stop, and then I think, I'm going to get Starbucks real quick.
	So I'm next to the apartment complex.
	So I drive into the—I park on the street.
	I go in.
	I get—I order a Starbucks.
	I'm waiting.
	And there's two people from the apartment complex staring at me.
	And I'm looking at them, looking at them, and the female walks out the back.
	This is downtown Charlotte.
	And she walks out the back, and the guy's staring at me.
	They call his order.
	He stands there with his order.
	He's got a bunch of coffees.
	I get my order.
	I walk outside.
	I get my car.
	He follows me out.
	And you know what I thought it was?
	Because it's like the fourth or the fifth.
	And I remember thinking, rent?
	I haven't paid my rent.
	I went to, you know, I'm not paying whatever it is, a couple grand.
	I'm not going to be here.
	Like, I'm thinking, they're taking this serious.
	Like, what, are they going to go serve me or something?
	Like, I don't know.
	So, no big deal.
	I get in my car.
	I start my car.
	You know, I'm playing with all this stuff and, you know, CDs.
	They used to have CDs.
	You know, I'm playing with the CDs, getting everything right.
	I got my seatbelt on.
	I'm checking to look and see if there's any cars coming.
	And all of a sudden, the guy starts screaming, he's right here!
	He's right here!
	I look in the rearview mirror, turn around, there's two guys running towards the back of the car.
	The reason they were looking at me is because the U.S. Marshals had just interviewed them.
	And they were interviewing people at the apartment complex, walking around, you know, neighbors, that sort of thing.
	And so the woman ran back there to say, he's right across the street.
	Oh, okay.
	So they come running and I just, boom, I punch it.
	I take off.
	There is no squealing, because it had posi-traction.
	But it does sound dramatic, right?
	I mean, it sounds better than it is.
	It wasn't that good.
	It makes it sound like I fishtail down the street, and cars are screeching.
	But the truth is, there was no cars.
	I'd already checked for the cars.
	I just happened to hit the gas.
	And these guys are maybe 50 feet from, which they're closing fast.
	So I hit the gas, and I take off.
	I drive about a mile down the street.
	I see some homeless guys.
	Service time!
	You know what I do.
	Survey!
	Pull over.
	While I get a chase from the Marshalls, you do this.
	Oh, yeah, but I'm like a mile.
	Yeah, but they were on foot, and I'm gone.
	I need the identities.
	I pull over, and that's where I find this guy.
	I find Walter Holcomb.
	I had a guy named...
	Walter?
	God, what was his name?
	Like John Phillips or something.
	It was a good name, too.
	It was like...
	Whatever it was, it was very generic.
	Phillips was generic.
	And then the other guy was...
	Joseph Marion Carter Jr.
	Because that's pretty much who I lived as in Nashville.
	So I drive to Nashville.
	Damn.
	I drive to Nashville.
	I immediately rent an apartment.
	I get an ID. How much money do you have now at this point?
	I have 100 Rand.
	That's all I've got.
	Okay.
	You haven't made money since then.
	No, because he gave it to me, and two days later, I'm in, you know, like, it's been only a couple days.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And then within a week or so, I've got, within two weeks, I'd say, I have, within a day, I have an apartment.
	The next day, I've got all the electric and everything.
	I've got a bed, everything.
	I've got a couple days after that, I'm getting a driver's license.
	Then I drive that car all the way back to Charlotte, and I leave it in Charlotte, long-term parking.
	I fly back to Tennessee, to Nashville.
	I buy a car.
	20% down, first time buyer program, and a pay stub, boom, you got it, CarMax.
	So I get myself a car, and I basically just start dating for about three, four months while I'm kind of cultivating this guy's credit.
	Of course, I start the credit on several guys.
	I start buying houses cheap for $60,000, $75,000, recording the value at $230,000, $240,000.
	Okay, so you go back to the old scam that you did back down in Tampa.
	It's my favorite.
	Bringing the comps up.
	If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
	This is what year now.
	Are we in 05, 06, 07?
	We're in 07.
	No, no.
	We're in 06.
	I meet this chick Amanda.
	She moves in.
	She knows I'm wanted.
	She knows Carter's not my name.
	That's all I'll tell her.
	And I tell her not to look into it.
	If you find out what my real name is, I'll just bolt.
	That's it.
	She's okay with it because, let's face it, she's living like she's never lived before.
	We're going to Venice.
	I'm sorry.
	Well, we did go to Venice.
	We go to Italy.
	We go to Rome.
	Damn, shit.
	So you're making money back again and everything.
	I buy a bunch of houses.
	Immediately, I'm borrowing...
	Hundreds of thousands, yeah.
	One and a half million...
	No, what am I saying?
	I borrow two and a half...
	Or $3 million in Nashville.
	So Amanda's happy.
	So the $100,000 you used to kind of get yourself set up and get your first house.
	Exactly.
	So with $100,000 I got four people to own or finance their houses.
	And I recorded the value higher, set the market, refinance it.
	Now I've got half a million.
	So very quickly I run up that money.
	We start building brand new houses.
	We start a development company.
	Everything's good.
	And then one day Amanda finds out who I am.
	She finds out my real name.
	What had happened was we had a corporate attorney who had opened a couple corporations for us, and she had called me one day and said, hey, Carter, I need this.
	So I called Amanda, said, Amanda, go on my computer, print this off, send it to her.
	And she goes, okay, no problem.
	She goes on my computer, and she's on Word, and she happens to be scrolling through the documents and sees a document that says, letter to mom and dad.
	And she clicks it.
	And it's George and Margaret Cox.
	And I signed it Matthew.
	So she looks up Matthew Cox.
	Oh, yeah.
	Fraud, fraud, fraud.
	By this point, you know, so keep in mind too, and I realize what she did right away.
	As soon as I go get back, I go to close my computer and I start to close everything.
	As soon as I click on, you know, you click on, it shows the last files open.
	And I'm like, Do you want to save this document?
	Letter to mom and dad.
	I'm like, oh shit.
	And then I click on the history bar and it's like secret service is the most wanted, you know, boom, boom, you know, fugitive.
	And I'm like, oh, it's not good.
	Yeah.
	You know, call it in South Carolina bank.
	You know, it's just like, oh, no, no, no, no.
	So I go in, I confront her.
	She starts crying, begs me not to go.
	I'm like, I got to leave now.
	She's like, no, no, please.
	I love you.
	And you know, and so obviously I'm an idiot.
	So I don't leave.
	She didn't call the police, though?
	No, no.
	She's down with it.
	She's good.
	But the problem is that now she knows.
	So what happens is maybe six months later, now she's searching me all the time.
	Six months later, she sees a blog about a new Dateline episode that's coming out called Thief of Hearts.
	It's about Matthew Cox.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it's me.
	So Dateline's going to do a special on me.
	Yeah.
	So she checks.
	It's Matt Cox.
	And she starts reading it.
	She calls me.
	She's like, oh my God.
	She's like, they're doing a Dateline special on you.
	A one-hour Dateline special.
	And I'm like, that's not good.
	Now, keep in mind, by this point, I've been in like, I've been in Fortune Magazine.
	I've been in Bloomberg Businessweek has done several articles.
	I've been in all kinds of newspapers.
	But that's negligible, right?
	Like, those are kind of local.
	And like, I don't hang out with anybody.
	That was a big deal back then, man.
	Because for the audience, YouTube, none of this shit existed back then, guys.
	So like, you made on the news or whatever.
	That was a Big fucking Dateline hour special?
	That was huge.
	That's the problem, is that right now you have a thousand things to watch.
	Back then you had three major networks and a couple local channels?
	Even if you had cable, there were still main news channels.
	Not a lot.
	And everybody watched Dateline.
	Yeah, the mainstream media still controlled the narrative.
	Like, yeah, you had all these other channels with cable, but they were still the main news channels.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, so Dateline was a big deal.
	So now I'm worried.
	Now I'm like, I gotta get out of here.
	Like, I gotta go.
	So we start researching.
	But we got months.
	So we start researching.
	We find out that if you...
	You could go to Australia, and you could go there if you had like over $100,000 or $200,000 in a business plan.
	They would allow you to come there, and you could become a permanent resident alien.
	But they wouldn't run your criminal record, right?
	So I had a guy that didn't have a criminal record.
	So you can run it, but they didn't do fingerprints.
	Like, they didn't fingerprint you run a full thing through because you're not a citizen.
	You're not trying to be a citizen.
	I just want to retire here or live here.
	And I'm coming here to open a business and hire Aussies.
	Now, I can't get a job.
	But I can go there, open a business, and I can buy real estate.
	Boom.
	That's with a couple hundred thousand.
	I'm going to show it with millions.
	Yeah.
	So I've got a few, we've got a bunch of money, and we start pulling money cash out, and we start asking people to, hey, can you cash these three checks?
	You know, we've got time, so we're stockpiling some cash.
	Okay.
	So you have like $2 million you need to liquidate.
	Yeah, and we're also refinancing properties at the same time.
	So maybe we'll have a couple million, maybe we'll have more.
	It depends on how long I can go.
	And so...
	Amanda ends up asking one of her friends named Trina to cash some checks.
	And that sparks a conversation with what's going on.
	And Amanda tells her who I am.
	And Trina calls the Secret Service and negotiates a $10,000 reward.
	Because you were number one for them.
	Yeah, and they watch my house for three days.
	And then one day I come home and they get on the ground, get on the ground, get on the ground.
	And I get on the ground and they handcuff me and that's it.
	And this is what year was this?
	2006, 2007 now?
	At this point?
	This is late.
	This is like November of 2006.
	You know what's crazy?
	Adam and Eve started with a man and woman.
	And as a result, Eve tricked Adam.
	He fell.
	You, my friend, started with Gretchen.
	The lady that told you to go whiteout.
	And then it ends with Amanda.
	Well, I mean, you can't, you know, you have to think about...
	So Amanda told her friend, and her friend is the one that fucked it up.
	Yeah.
	Trisha.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And Amanda didn't tell her on purpose.
	I mean, she told her, but she didn't think she was going to call, and she didn't do it.
	You know, she just was...
	And you found this out from your discovery that she was the one.
	No, I found it out when Amanda wrote me a letter in prison.
	Oh.
	And explained it.
	The only letter I got.
	Are her and Trisha still friends?
	Oh no, no.
	No.
	How much money had you unmasked at that point when you got picked up by Secret Service?
	I don't know.
	A million maybe?
	That I had in cash or in the bank?
	Yeah, I meant in cash, yeah.
	Maybe half a million, 600,000?
	Yeah, because the whole goal was to get the money out so that you can go to Australia.
	It had to be less than 600,000 because I know the most money I've ever had in cash was about 600,000.
	Everybody's like, oh, you had millions?
	Yeah, but it wasn't in cash.
	Yeah.
	500,000 here, 200,000 in these different accounts.
	And people say, why did you get it out?
	It's difficult to get it out.
	It's very difficult to get it out.
	And I don't need to get it out if it's in an account in a name that isn't a stolen identity.
	Or if it is a stolen identity, the person doesn't even know.
	Like some homeless guy living under a bridge in Alabama doesn't know he's got an account with $400,000 in North Carolina.
	Wait, did Amanda keep all the money?
	No, when the Secret Service shows up, they grab everything.
	Yeah, no, I mean, that makes sense because obviously you have to get the money out nice and slow so that you don't trigger as many things and obviously using different identities.
	Yeah, it's going to take months to get all that money out.
	But I'm just curious, as a former HSI agent, how is he able to run for so long and not get caught?
	I mean, this is a different time, bro.
	Oh, you mean, because it's back then?
	Yeah, this is 05, 06, and also he had a bunch of different IDs.
	He was going to different states.
	Listen, I'm getting pulled over by the cops.
	I'm getting tickets.
	I have real...
	You could still get real...
	I could go in right now and get a real driver's license issued in the state of Florida.
	You know, you could, like...
	Because the backup documents are authentic.
	Right.
	What are they going to do?
	It's the same thing if you moved to a different state and went to go get an ID or a driver's license in that state.
	I'm providing the same documents you would.
	They don't know if they connect to you or not.
	Because the thing is that all of his backup documents are legit.
	It's just that he got it from homeless people that don't really have IDs and shit like that.
	So he's able to go and get the stuff easy.
	So you're telling me I can get a fake ID and just live as that person in America?
	Yeah.
	Why not?
	A lot of people do it.
	Shit, my new name is George Washington.
	So the issue I was having was my fear was like if I reestablish myself as this person and what if this person dies someday?
	So my whole thing was like to get enough money and then transfer everything into a corporation or trust and then try and alter that identity enough so that it never really connects.
	Like get a new social security number issued for that name, change the guy's name.
	You know what I'm saying?
	So if at some point that person dies, it doesn't end up connecting to me.
	I have a different name.
	The only thing we share is maybe the date of birth.
	We have a different social security number.
	We have a different name.
	Wow.
	That's it.
	And that's why one of the things like trying to get the guy doing the – changing the guy's name legally.
	I want to know what that process is, how it works.
	Right.
	So, question.
	So, you get picked up by Secret Service.
	So, FBI has an open case on you.
	Secret Service has an open case on you.
	FBI has you indicted, if I'm not mistaken, probably in Tampa, Northern District of Florida, or maybe Central District of Florida.
	And then you got an open case with Secret Service out of, you said Tennessee was an indicting office, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I got Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.
	You got indicted four different times?
	Yeah, in four different districts.
	Holy shit, okay.
	So, you get picked up by Secret Service, probably out of the Nashville office.
	Take me through that day, what happened?
	Like, they brought you back to, what happened?
	So they pick you up, what ends up happening?
	Okay, can I tell you a joke real quick?
	Yeah, sure.
	Adam and Eve, you may have heard this.
	You just said the Adam and Eve thing is shot in my...
	Have you ever heard the Adam and Eve?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so, you know, Adam's in paradise.
	Garden.
	And he's bored.
	Eden.
	Yeah, he's in Eden.
	He's in paradise.
	Ebor, he's in E-war.
	He's in...
	Yeah, so he's, you know, so everything's perfect, but he's lonely.
	So he goes to God and he says, God...
	He says, you know, I'm lonely.
	I appreciate everything you've done, but I'm lonely.
	And God says, okay, he said, could you make me a partner?
	And he says, yes, I'll make you a partner.
	He says, here's what I'll do, Adam.
	I will split you down the middle, and I am going to make the perfect female to your male.
	She will be equal to you in intellect and physical embodiment in every single way.
	She will be your equal.
	And Adam goes, what can I get for a rib?
	A mick rib.
	That's the Adam and Eve story.
	So anyway, have you heard that?
	No, that's funny.
	Oh, come on.
	That's funny.
	That's a variation, but it is funny, yeah.
	So anyway.
	Now we ended up with women.
	I'm just joking.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Go ahead.
	Okay, so what happens is they arrest me.
	They arrest me.
	They put me in the back of the car.
	They drive me to the local secret service.
	They handcuff me.
	And they get me McDonald's.
	Yo!
	That's what they always do.
	Wait, where'd they get you?
	Breakfast or...
	Oh, like a...
	Big Mac?
	No, like a small cheeseburger and like a Coke and fries.
	Like, that's all I wanted.
	And before the audience knows, sorry, just so you guys know, yeah, Secret Service does financial investigations, guys.
	They have two real mandates, three.
	Obviously protecting the president, and then counterfeit currency, and then financial crimes is a big one they do.
	Especially if it has to do with...
	So it's...
	Protecting the financial infrastructure of the United States.
	So anything with banking and especially with identity theft.
	Yeah.
	Credit cards, all that.
	Yeah.
	Which is all what I was doing.
	Yeah.
	So I fell right into their jurisdiction.
	Yeah.
	Because I was- That's why they got Sean Kingston.
	It was Sean Kingston that got- Oh yeah.
	It was Secret Service that picked him up.
	Him and his mom.
	He just got indicted federally like last week.
	But sorry, continue on.
	Oh, sorry.
	No, just...
	You know what's crazy about Sean Kingston?
	What?
	He's been doing that for years, bro.
	Like, years.
	Scamming?
	Bro, a lot of rappers do that, bro.
	I know they do.
	So, yeah, so...
	The secret, main secret...
	The chick that was...
	Her name was...
	So the main secret service agent...
	The case agent, probably.
	Yeah, Andrea Peacock.
	Okay.
	She comes down...
	Andrea.
	And she talks to me, you know.
	She comes in, she's like, look, you know...
	We'd like to ask you some questions.
	And I'm like, okay.
	And I'm like, I want to talk to you.
	I said, but I really would like to talk to a lawyer.
	And she said, okay, we're good.
	She said, that's fine.
	She said, we're going to have you transferred back to Atlanta.
	And I was like, okay.
	And she said, I'll talk to you then.
	She said, it's probably going to be a few weeks, maybe a month or so.
	And I was like, I don't know how it works.
	I'm like, okay.
	So, they end up moving me to, like, Mississippi or something.
	And first it was, like, Oklahoma.
	No, it was Mississippi.
	I was there for, like, two weeks to some private prison.
	Well, first I was in a local prison for, like, four or five days.
	Then they transferred me to, like, Mississippi for a couple weeks.
	Then they fly me to Oklahoma City.
	Okay.
	So, which is like a transfer station.
	So I stay in Oklahoma City for two or three weeks.
	And then they transfer me to Atlanta.
	They fly me into like, whatever, someplace close to Atlanta.
	And then they put me on a bus and they drive me, right?
	So you're being bussed all around.
	And they get me to Atlanta.
	Where'd you do your initial appearance?
	In Tennessee, right?
	I did.
	When you went in front of the magistrate judge.
	Very briefly.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You've been arrested for XYZ. Were you indicted or was it a criminal complaint?
	No, I've been indicted.
	You've been indicted.
	I hadn't been indicted in Tampa yet, but everybody else had indicted me.
	Well, except for Nashville.
	They hadn't.
	So it really was just Atlanta and South Carolina, I think.
	Okay, so they arrested you off of an Atlanta indictment, which is why they transferred you there.
	So you did your initial appearance in Tennessee, but then you probably...
	Okay, all right.
	And then immediately got transferred to Atlanta, which took, like I said, a month or so.
	Okay.
	So I get there, and they give me a lawyer.
	Did you get arraigned at that point?
	Yeah, you get another...
	You go in front of the judge again.
	Yep.
	You plan not guilty.
	Yeah.
	And they give me a lawyer, and then they have a bail, you know, bond hearing.
	Yep.
	And when I showed up for the bond hearing, like, I just met my lawyer.
	Her name was Millie Dunn.
	Super cool.
	Like, very nice.
	Very sweet.
	You know, a public defender.
	Okay.
	Because, obviously, I don't have any money.
	Yeah.
	So...
	They took it all.
	Yeah, they took everything.
	They seized everything.
	So...
	So anyway, she walks in with me and I walk in.
	I'm like, well, what am I here for?
	And she's like, a bond hearing.
	And I go, they're going to give me a bond?
	She's like, no.
	No.
	And they had photos of me before and after surgery.
	They had photos of all my different...
	They have a whole presentation.
	The whole thing is filled up.
	And the judge, it was being held in this really massive federal courtroom because my judge was a new judge.
	He'd only been on the bench for like a month.
	And so he didn't—his courtroom—because they actually give them their own courtrooms.
	Yeah, yeah, they do.
	His courtroom was still in the process of being done, so he was using the—she called it, like, the show courtroom, like, the fancy courtroom.
	Right.
	Not that the other ones aren't fancy, too, because they are.
	But this was really nuts.
	Anyway, she said—I said, so they're not going to be on?
	She's like, no.
	And I said, do we have to?
	She goes, no, they're about to make a spectacle of this whole thing.
	She goes, they're going to drag you through the mud here.
	She said all these different identities, your plastic surgery, like everything.
	Because when you go to a bond hearing, what they have to argue is, is he a flight risk?
	And the government, it's their job to keep him detained.
	So what they did was they got all his pictures, showed that this guy's been running, he's prone to run, he's changed his appearance, etc.
	He's altered himself this much.
	He's a flight risk.
	We need to take his passport and don't let him out.
	And they came with that whole presentation.
	Keep in mind, they caught me with multiple plastic.
	Oh, by the way, they had already caught Becky.
	They caught her six months before me.
	Oh, in Texas?
	Yes.
	How'd they get her?
	She had 500k.
	Price penalty.
	So, she...
	The way they caught her was she had told her mother...
	Now, she tells a different story.
	She says that she just got recognized as a waitress.
	That's what they might have told her.
	But what the Secret Service told me was she had spoken with a relative...
	Which is only her mother.
	Yeah.
	They talked to her mother and had told her mother during one phone conversation she was in Houston, Texas.
	Because she kept saying, where are you?
	I just want to know where you are.
	And then during another conversation, she said she was in beauty school.
	So she's getting her, what's it, to cut hair, like cosmetology or something?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I'm getting my license to be a haircut person.
	So now her mother knows.
	She's in a cosmetology school in Houston, Texas.
	She calls the fucking Secret Service, turns her in, they grab her.
	Now, the Secret Service tells me this.
	Because she had gotten indicted with you, probably.
	Yeah, but her mother is...
	If we think Becky's crazy, there's nothing compared to her mother.
	So, you know...
	I just want to know where you are!
	That whole thing, you know?
	And so, you know, Becky had gotten caught.
	And...
	And so Becky had all my, so when they grabbed me, they already have like fucking eight or 10 passports with my picture on it.
	They got IDs.
	She had the storage units, all that stuff.
	They got IDs.
	So when they get me, they caught me with maybe four or five passports.
	She's got another eight or nine.
	I've had like 22 passports.
	And so, you know, they're sitting there like, he's had 27 driver's licenses in seven different states.
	He's had two dozen passports.
	It's not two dozen, it's 22.
	But everything's exaggerated.
	And, you know, they've got, so they're about to do all this, and I end up waiving it.
	I said, do we have to do this?
	And they're not going to give it.
	She goes, we can waive it.
	She goes, do you want to waive it?
	I said, yeah.
	She goes, okay, let's waive it.
	She goes, I'd rather waive it.
	She's like, I mean, I can argue for you, but Matt, she's like, the passports, she goes, you've got too many passports.
	And I was like, okay.
	Yeah.
	So, they waive it.
	U.S. Attorney's super disappointed.
	Right.
	Oh yeah, they wanted to make it a big deal.
	A big show, right?
	Yeah.
	She loves the camera.
	So, anyway, so what happens is- Who's your prosecutor?
	Her name was Gail McKenzie.
	Okay.
	Really just, you know, everybody says their prosecutor hates them, so I hate to say that, but she hated me.
	Anyway, so yeah, I, you know, of course, my lawyer, when I talked to my lawyer, she's like, listen, I'm like, well, what, what, what's like, do I have a defense?
	Do I have, then she's like, no.
	She's like, she's like, I don't know if you realize this, Matt, she said, but they're indicting you now as we speak in Tampa and in, in, in Tennessee and She goes, everybody's cooperated against you.
	And several people in Tennessee who were in on, I think, maybe four or five, they've all cooperated already.
	She goes, the people in Tampa, she's like, some of these people have gone to jail and gotten out or are getting out.
	She's like, Becky's going to jail.
	So when you ran away the first time, FBI didn't even have an arrest warrant for you.
	They just wanted to talk to you.
	No, when they...
	Remember the first time you ran away?
	When I took off on the run?
	When you took off on the run originally, back down in Florida.
	So the FBI didn't have an arrest warrant for you yet?
	No, they were just going to come arrest me, though.
	They were?
	Oh, okay.
	Because they don't need anything.
	I'm on probation.
	The Gary Sullivan story?
	I'm on federal probation.
	Okay, they were going to get you on probation violation.
	Okay, okay.
	Okay, okay.
	So that makes sense.
	So then they actually formally indicted you for this stuff.
	After you got picked up in Tennessee.
	Now, they had violated my probation immediately by saying I absconded.
	So I've been wanted.
	Okay, alright.
	But it was wanted for different things.
	Okay, makes sense now.
	So she's like, you're done.
	I'm like, well, what do I do?
	She's like, your only choice is to cooperate and hope for the best.
	Damn.
	She goes, that's it.
	She goes, I mean, we can go to trial.
	She said, but you're going to get 30 years.
	She goes, they might start stacking charges.
	She goes, you might get – and I was – because I had read in the newspaper that I was looking at like 150 years.
	She said, you won't get 150 years, but she said, you could theoretically get about 54 years.
	Damn.
	And I'm like, you know, it's not good.
	Like, you know, Bernie Madoff's getting arrested.
	Like, people are getting – he hasn't been charged yet.
	Oh, yeah.
	And I'm like, 54 years ago, I've never heard anything like that.
	Is the real estate market crashing now at this point?
	It is, because by now, well, it's starting to crash in late 2007, right?
	And that's where I am.
	I'm in mid-2007 at this point.
	So it's starting to crash.
	They're going to make an example out of you, man.
	I'm the poster boy.
	Matthew's the problem.
	You are the poster boy of the real estate crash.
	My little $55 million brought down the whole country.
	Give me a fucking break.
	You know what I'm saying?
	You can't...
	The moment you start defending yourself, then you're not taking responsibility.
	So, yeah, basically, she's like, cooperate.
	Like, go and cooperate.
	And so I'm like, okay.
	So she sets it up.
	I meet with the FBI for...
	Who did I meet with?
	So just so I make sure I get this right.
	Secret Service ran your case.
	However, you did cooperate with the FBI on their Florida cases.
	Yes.
	So they consolidate all the indictments into one indictment in Atlanta.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Like, I have a whole bunch of dockets, but it's all basically under one.
	Okay.
	So, I meet with the FBI. I talk with them.
	Okay.
	Like, one of the things they wanted to know, there was actually a guy named- Was your Secret Service agent there when you were cooperating?
	No, no.
	No, no.
	So I talk to the FBI for, whatever, four days?
	I could be wrong.
	It could be four or five, whatever.
	Let's say four.
	I speak with them.
	Proffers, right?
	Right.
	And one of the things they want to know about is...
	Chat proffers where he could basically say whatever he wants without being charged.
	Right, which is too late because they got me up for everything.
	But I had bribed a politician.
	And I got him elected to the city council.
	And they wanted to know about that.
	They're bringing up all kinds of shit.
	I forgot about it.
	Who?
	And I'm like, oh yeah!
	That guy!
	That's the kind of thing I'm like, right, right.
	I remember the secret service.
	So that was the FBI. So the FBI's angle, you came in and you helped them with public corruption, which makes sense.
	That's one of their main things.
	Right.
	I think that was what they initially were.
	That's all they cared about.
	The first thing they cared about.
	But that was the first thing.
	We talk about that.
	Okay, I explain it to him.
	The guy's done, by the way.
	I mean, hands down, he's fucked.
	Like, I've got...
	I'm writing...
	I've got checks for $500 coming out of, you know, James Green's account, you know, Lee Black's account, you know, Brandon Green...
	You know, all these...
	Funding him.
	Funding, you know, it came to like $23,000 or something.
	My family's writing checks.
	I'm writing checks.
	My corporations are writing...
	Like...
	Your whole campaign was run off of $30,000, 23 of it's from me.
	You're like the Dora Soros of the Times.
	Okay, so that makes sense.
	So you cooperated with the FBI to help them.
	So they didn't give a fuck about your financial case.
	No, no, they did.
	I'm just saying that was the first thing they wanted.
	They asked about everybody else, but everybody else has been indicted.
	And they've all cooperated already, and they've already told them everything.
	There's nothing I can really tell them.
	Although I don't want to mislead you, I didn't try.
	I desperately wanted to cut the throat of every single person I could cut to get out of the mess I'm in.
	So it just doesn't work.
	So then the Secret Service comes in.
	They question me.
	But there's really almost nobody to even talk about.
	I started doing almost everything myself.
	So we talked for maybe two or three days.
	Because their purview is financial crimes.
	And one of the things, they were concerned about tracking down money.
	And if you watch Dateline or American Greed or any of these shows that they've done shows on me, they always talk about there's a missing $5 million or $3 million.
	It's like, don't I wish?
	So they were more concerned about tracking down money.
	And keep in mind, too, I've got all these bank statements.
	That show I have money in these banks like Southern Exchange Bank has $200,000 in it.
	And they're pulling out these documents saying, what about here?
	There's $200,000 here.
	And I'm like, are you serious?
	I'm like, did you call the bank?
	They're like, we did.
	We called.
	We left messages.
	I just subpoenaed them.
	And I'm like, how?
	Who did you subpoena?
	And they're like, well, remember I told you it was once a bank?
	Yeah.
	So they subpoenaed the original Southern Exchange Bank.
	And I'm like, did you go to the website?
	And then the FBI agent goes, his name was Dan.
	He goes, yeah, I went to the website.
	I said, what did you think of it?
	And then he goes, it's a bank website.
	I said, but I mean, it's professional.
	He's like, it's a bank website.
	And I went, yeah, but I mean, it's professional.
	I said, it's convincing.
	And he goes, son of a bitch.
	And he goes, and everybody's like, what?
	What?
	He goes, it's fake, isn't it?
	I go, it's all an illusion.
	Yeah.
	To show money so that you can get these loans.
	I'm like, you thought this was a real bank?
	Wow.
	Like, you're the fucking Secret Service.
	Like, I was embarrassed.
	Like, I can't believe you guys caught me.
	So, anyway, what happens is, so I go through that.
	Nobody gets arrested.
	Okay.
	So I go in front of, so then just before I go to sentencing, I plead guilty because I don't have a choice.
	They do my pre-sentence report.
	FBI couldn't get this fucking dirty politician?
	That didn't get some time off for you?
	No, because at this point, by the time they're going to investigate it, the financial system's starting to collapse, right?
	So now they're starting to do bigger investigations.
	Like, do they want the guy?
	Yeah, they do get him, but not for my thing.
	He had another bribery case.
	Like, they come out and see me again, asking me more questions.
	Yeah.
	And then they actually, he goes to trial.
	He loses.
	He gets like three years.
	You didn't get no time off?
	No.
	Fuck.
	Okay, alright.
	The thing with the proffer for the audience is that you need to be able to lead to tangible results, is the thing.
	So that's what, to get the proffer benefit.
	Right, technically, yeah, your information needs to lead to the arrest or the indictment arrest of- Individuals.
	Or further the investigation, but they never use that.
	Significantly, yeah.
	Really, if you don't have a rest...
	If you fight for the guy, you can do it.
	But they just didn't want to fight for you.
	So what ends up happening is...
	Anyway, what happens is just before I go to sentencing, the U.S. prosecutor asked me to be...
	So Dateline had come out.
	Okay.
	So the first special on you, now they're doing a second one?
	They're doing a second one because this time they want to interview me.
	Okay.
	So the prosecutor says, we want you to be interviewed.
	Okay.
	So my lawyer says, you need to be interviewed.
	She said she'll consider it, you'll know this term, substantial assistance.
	Oh yeah, that's good.
	She says, we'll consider this substantial assistance.
	Okay.
	You'll consider something?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	She goes, you got to do it, Matt.
	Nobody's been indicted.
	Nobody's been arrested.
	And you obviously got the acceptance of responsibility too, right?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	You got that benefit too for pleading guilty?
	And for a timely manner.
	I got that one too.
	All of these terms are things that they take into account when you get sentenced to lower your time.
	Right.
	You didn't drag it out.
	Yeah, you pled guilty quickly.
	This is an interesting one.
	So obviously you're a famous guy now at this point, so doing the interview, that's okay.
	So I do the interview, right?
	That guy with the long face and the white hair.
	You know what I'm talking about?
	You know what I'm talking about on Dateline?
	I hate that guy.
	Keith Morrow or Keith something.
	Someone in the chat is going to put it.
	Somebody.
	We can Google it real quick.
	His name is something.
	Yeah, it's Dateline, Keith.
	I forget his name.
	Oh, he's horrible.
	I don't know his name.
	Morrison.
	Is it Keith Morrison?
	Is that it?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, these are all people talking?
	Yeah, that's...
	Who was the dirty politician?
	Oh, his name was Kevin White.
	That was the big thing with them, by the way.
	They were like, you were running a guy named Michael Kevin White, borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then the money from that scam came out, and I actually gave some of that money.
	Part of that money I gave to...
	To Kevin White, the real Kevin White.
	Dirty money.
	So they're saying, Matt, like, they're like, is it a coincidence?
	They're like, that can't be a coincidence.
	I'm like, it is a coincidence.
	It's funny.
	It actually is.
	And they're telling me, this happens later when they come to see me.
	Nobody liked your Quentin Tarantino joke?
	No, no.
	Not one of the agents left?
	No.
	When the FBI comes later to talk to me again, I'm in prison, they talk to me about him again, and they're trying to tell me, listen to how that conversation goes.
	They go, okay, Matt, I understand.
	They're like, the statute of limitations on the bribery is three years, and it's up.
	And I go, okay.
	They said, bank fraud, though, is five years.
	I go, okay.
	They said, so if Kevin White knew...
	That you were running a scam in Orlando under the name Michael Kevin White, and he knew he was getting money from that scam.
	He could be charged with bank fraud.
	I'm like, right?
	And I'm like, yeah, but he didn't know.
	And he's like, they're like, okay, I understand that, but nobody on a jury would know that, would believe that.
	I go, I know, but it's just a coincidence.
	Like, not, like, listen, you understand?
	He's trying to coax me into saying it.
	Listen, if I had to do it over again, I'd be like, fuck yeah, it was his idea!
	Are you serious?
	Constantly talking to him about it.
	He knew wire fraud.
	Why are they being lazy?
	They could have done wire fraud.
	Idiots.
	I don't know.
	The point is, but at that point, I'm like, I didn't want to play that game.
	You're already in jail and shit.
	And I already figured they're going to get these other people that have legitimate cases.
	I don't have to make something up about you.
	And the thing is, literally a year later, they indict him on another bribery case.
	And he goes to trial and loses.
	So I'm interviewed by Dateline.
	18 U.S.C. 201.
	Check that, Bill.
	See if I'm still good, if I remember.
	18 U.S.C. 201, I think, is bribery.
	How do you remember all these names, bro?
	I'm good at faces.
	You're good at names.
	That's crazy.
	Do you see paperwork as much as you've probably seen?
	I really feel like I'm horrible at names.
	But keep in mind, I wrote a book.
	I wrote a memoir about it.
	I've read it.
	I've written.
	I'm right?
	Yeah.
	Let's go.
	Okay.
	So I'm interviewed for Dateline.
	They run the Dateline.
	They run it, and a few weeks before I'm sentenced, I go to sentencing, and my lawyer calls the U.S. Attorney the day before sentencing.
	And so, by the way, my PSI, my pre-sentence report says, well, it says 32 years to life, but we argue because it was like all these enhancements, and I argue the enhancements, and I get it down to 26 years.
	And then my lawyer is telling me- He probably got you for head of organizational, so the bullshit.
	Oh, head of organizational, changing jurisdictions, you know, everything on the run.
	Right.
	Change it, yeah.
	So it's 26 years.
	My lawyer is saying you have to plead guilty, but don't worry.
	I'm going to argue these enhancements.
	They don't apply to you, and I'm going to win them in front of the judge, and you're going to end up with 12 years, and then you'll get- Maybe 12, 14 years, and then you're going to get, you know, they're going to give you something for the, you know, for Dateline.
	Yeah.
	Because nobody's being arrested.
	And I'm like, I'm like, okay, cool.
	Oh, so it took time for that substantial assistance to kick in.
	No.
	I'll explain it to you.
	I'm going to explain it to you quickly because I know we're dragging out of time.
	So what happens is the night before, my lawyer calls the U.S. attorney and says, what are you going to recommend for Mr.
	Cox's 5K1, which is the reduction, right?
	And she says, she says, for doing Dateline.
	And she goes, you know, I'm not going to recommend anything.
	She goes, why?
	She said, well, she said, because it's just not enough.
	She said, but you said you consider it substantial assistance.
	She goes, I did consider it, and it's not enough.
	Right?
	How sleazy is that?
	She scammed you.
	I mean, bro.
	I did consider it.
	I said I'd consider it substantial.
	That's fucked up, man.
	I ain't gonna lie, bro.
	Damn.
	She scammed you, bro.
	Yeah, I know.
	She got me.
	Like, I can't complain right now.
	I'm just like, you're not good.
	You're good.
	Anyway, so I get 26.
	My lawyer goes in front of the judge.
	She argues all these enhancements.
	The judge disagrees with the entire argument, and I end up getting 26 years for $6 million.
	It was $9.5 million.
	I got it down to $6 million, so it's $6 million.
	Which I'm good for.
	So what happens is I get 26 years and then they move me to Coleman, Florida, and I go to the medium security prison, which if you've been to a medium security prison, I should not have been in a medium security prison.
	Like, I'm not...
	Everybody in there has been shot.
	Everybody in there has sold drugs.
	Everybody can tell you how to make math.
	I mean, like, these are all, like, serious, serious...
	A lot of the times they did max security and then they had good behavior.
	Then they move them to medium security.
	A lot of these guys...
	Oh, wow.
	So they're gangbangers and terrible people.
	There's guys with life sentences.
	There's guys who killed 15 people.
	There's guys who, like, it's...
	They behaved good and they got in there.
	Right.
	It's significant.
	But here's why I went.
	Because...
	Based on the Bureau of Prisons guidelines, if you have more than 20 years to serve, you have to go to a medium.
	You can't go to a low.
	So you can't go to a camp unless you have less than 10 years.
	So I have camp points.
	I'm like a level 2.
	And that's only because I had, like, a detainer, you know?
	So I had to get the detainer taken off, and, like, it would have been zero.
	Like, when I left prison, it was zero.
	So I go there, and I've got, like, two levels.
	I mean, my counselors, when they say, they're like, what are you doing here?
	They're like, oh, wow, you got 26.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	When you get below 20, we'll move you to the low.
	And it's like, okay.
	But honestly, I was there for three years, and it wasn't that bad.
	The first day, somebody got stabbed.
	People get stabbed.
	But it's like being a non-enemy combatant in a war zone.
	It's happening around you.
	You just try not to get shrapnel, and you just deal with it.
	And so I went to—I taught GED. Did you align your—because we brought 1090 Jake on, and he spent a lot of time in the state prisons of Florida.
	You were federal, so I'm different.
	I think he was already ganged up before that.
	But with you being in the federal system, it's a little bit different.
	Was there a race thing?
	Were you there linking up with only the white guys?
	No, because it really didn't matter.
	Were the politics in your jail?
	Yeah, there's, like, you know, you have cars.
	They call them cars.
	So you have, like, if you're from, whatever, if you're from Houston, Texas, then you're in the Houston car.
	You're in the Orlando car.
	Or let's say maybe it's the Florida car.
	Like, it depends on how many people are there.
	Like, Florida car, he's in the Georgia car, he's in the...
	So you can do that, and they kind of click up and hang out.
	So you click up on state, not necessarily race.
	Right.
	Well, some people, there are, like, Latin kings.
	Of course.
	There are, you know...
	Bloods, Crips, all that.
	Yeah, those guys are there.
	But nobody wants me in a gang.
	I don't want to be in a gang.
	What am I going to do to your books?
	I'm no good.
	And because I'm educated, you have a certain status, right?
	You're basically Google.
	They don't have Google.
	So it's, hey, Cox.
	What does this mean?
	What does the continental United States mean?
	What does that mean?
	How many states are there in the continental United States?
	Or they say, hey, Cox, I don't understand this, and then they ask you.
	So these questions, these normal questions, you get asked where you're like, there's 50 states.
	Some are on the continent and connected, and some aren't.
	And, you know, but you can't look at them like that.
	Yeah, of course.
	It's just shit slapped out.
	You sound like you're like, oh, okay, yeah, no, I get it.
	So listen, a lot of people get confused about this.
	And then so you act like it's a good question, but really you're thinking, damn, oh my God.
	So a lot of these people have been in prison their whole life, like even through childhood.
	Yeah, they got a prison GED, right?
	Where did Jordan Belfort go?
	Was he in maximum, medium?
	No, he went to federal, but yeah.
	He went to a camp.
	He did like 18 months or something.
	That's it?
	Yeah, for $102 million.
	But he had money and he could hire a good attorney.
	And it was the first time he was in trouble.
	You didn't have any money?
	I have no money.
	All my money is...
	Anyone on the run.
	Yeah, and I'm on the run.
	Like, I'm a bad guy.
	And I was on federal probation before.
	So there's no upside for me saying anything.
	It's like, if you lay it out, it's all bad.
	So anyway, so I'm in the medium for a while, and eventually I go to the low.
	Who did you hang out with when you were in the medium?
	I hung out with a guy named John Gordon, a black guy that did legal work.
	A guy named Kevin Weeks, white guy that did legal work.
	Kevin Weeks, Whitey Bulger?
	No.
	Don't look at me, bro.
	I don't think he went to jail.
	That ain't my family, man.
	And then a guy named Zach, a buddy of mine named Zach.
	His name is Isaac Allen.
	They call him Zach.
	And he was there for fraud.
	And he'd been in and out of prison for fraud.
	White collar guys, it seems like.
	White collar guy.
	Having a book written about him right now.
	Like, listen, talk about brilliant.
	Brilliant.
	Probably the dumbest smart guy I know.
	Do amazing scams and then go and buy a hotel room with a stolen credit card and the cops show up and arrest you.
	It's like, why would you do that?
	You had half a million dollars in the bank.
	Well, I know, but I thought it'd be okay.
	Are you okay?
	You're running a scam that's bringing in $100,000 a month.
	You mentioned you hung out with some guys, or you knew some guys that were in John Gotti's crew, and then also some guys that got taken down by Donnie Brasco?
	Yeah, there were some guys from like the, in the Donnie Brasco, you know, when he busted, he busted like 40, 50 people, like a ton of people.
	Yeah, an Italian mob, yeah.
	More than you really realize in the movie.
	And some of those guys were there.
	It was so funny because people like Donnie Brasco would come on and guys would be like, hey, Tony!
	Like, I can't remember these guys' names.
	They'd go, look, Donnie Brasco!
	Look at him!
	That motherfucker!
	And they'd go nuts!
	Forget about it!
	They'd go crazy.
	Yeah!
	It wasn't like hanging out with the mob guys.
	Was it cool?
	So, I didn't hang out with the guys until I went to the low.
	Okay, those mob guys were in the low.
	No, these guys, those guys, Adi Basco, those guys were in the medium.
	But when I went to the low, I started, I like, then you're around these guys.
	But they're old, like they're part of Gotti's crew.
	Supposedly, you know, when Castellano got murdered, you know the guys with the hat, like supposedly two of the guys that actually killed him were there.
	Now, they don't say that, but everybody else would be like, you know, so-and-so, Castellano got shot, right?
	They're like, you know, so-and-so and so-and-so are two of the guys.
	There's like five guys that ran up and shot him.
	And just so the audience knows, Castellano was the boss of the Gambino crime family.
	Before Gotti.
	Before Gotti.
	John Gotti had him murdered, right?
	Which is a big no-no in the mafia, by the way.
	John Gotti had him murdered, and the two guys that killed Paul Castellano were there with you.
	Well, it's not two.
	There was like five.
	Two of them were there.
	Yeah, and they killed him at a steakhouse in the middle of Manhattan.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because he would go to the steakhouse every single Tuesday or something.
	He had a pattern, and they just waited for him.
	They put on these Russian hats, the fur hat, so you think they're Russians.
	And then they just fucking gunned him down, and his bodyguard, they fucked him up.
	Yeah, they killed them both.
	Did they kill them both?
	Yeah, they killed his bodyguard and Paul Costano.
	That was a big no-no back at the time.
	And John Gotti took power after that.
	And everyone knows John Gotti killed Pio Castellano.
	Everybody knows.
	Well, everybody knew who was involved, too, because these two guys, like, everybody was like, they were involved.
	Now, they're there for something completely different, right?
	Well, they didn't actually get him for the murder.
	No, they never got him for the murder.
	But everybody would be like, that's the guy that's such and such.
	But he's really here for tax evasion.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Like, they'll get him for anything.
	They'll take anything.
	Yeah.
	So when I went to the low, there were a bunch of other guys that were all like, they were like the, what was it, Lucchese, Crime Family, whatever.
	There was guys from all the Crime Families, and they would all hook up and hang out together.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	That makes sense to hang out.
	Yeah.
	They're all, yeah.
	There's only, they're all the times.
	You're 75, you're 72, you're 69, you're 74.
	These guys are old.
	This is the 80s we're talking about, bro.
	This is the 80s, 90s when these guys were doing it.
	I mean, they're around in the 70s, but.
	Are they going to die in jail?
	Yeah, a lot of them probably got life sentences.
	Rico.
	Some of them might have.
	Maybe on COVID. Some of them might.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Rudy Giuliani put a lot of them away.
	Trust me, they want them to die in jail.
	These guys had sentences like Buck Rogers fucking release dates.
	They were outrageous.
	But COVID released a lot of people.
	A lot of people, they were like, look, the guy's fucking 75.
	Let him go home.
	Yeah, come on, man.
	You know, it's over.
	He spent 20 fucking years in prison.
	I know you want him to die in prison.
	Give him three years out.
	And listen, COVID's going to kill him in here.
	Like, we can't have all these guys die in here.
	The amount of people that are dying from COVID in prison.
	That's how Tekashi got out, too.
	A lot of guys got out from COVID. Tekashi got out, really, from COVID. It's harmless.
	They're harmless at this point.
	Even if you're dangerous once, you're 75, you're harmless.
	And it opens them up to lawsuits, too.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	Oh, you mean if they die in prison during COVID? Yeah, absolutely.
	This guy's totally susceptible.
	Yeah, it's like we don't want him to be our fucking problem.
	And remember, in 2020, people are like, what the hell is this?
	No one knew.
	Like now, in 2020 hindsight, we're like, oh, COVID. But back then, remember, people were fucking freaking out.
	Buying toilet paper and shit out of nowhere.
	So I go to the low.
	So the quick version is I go to the low.
	And so I got 26 years.
	I go to the low and so I start writing books, right?
	Like I write a memoir about myself and then I end up writing a book about a memoir for a guy named Ephraim Devaroli.
	Did you ever see the movie War Dogs?
	Yeah, I think so.
	I've heard of it.
	I don't know if I've seen it in full length.
	You've never seen War Dogs?
	Pull it up real quick.
	Pull up War Dogs.
	Yeah, we'll pull it up for you.
	Let's see here.
	Jonah Hill plays...
	Oh, yeah!
	What the fuck?
	Yeah, the guys that sold weapons.
	Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	I've seen this movie.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Oh, you know what?
	David Pakows is in Miami.
	You should interview him.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I've seen this movie, dude.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, Pakows is played by this guy, Miles Teller.
	Jewish guy, right?
	Yeah.
	Packhouse.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so...
	I know, yeah.
	So, listen, he's great.
	Yeah.
	Anyway...
	He's bald now, right?
	If I'm not mistaken?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I know exactly what you're talking about.
	Yeah.
	So, anyway...
	I'll reach out to him.
	We'll make it happen.
	Yeah, I got that as information, bro.
	He's, like, right down the street.
	Okay, awesome.
	So what ends up happening is I get a couple guys in, like, Rolling Stone magazine.
	I write a book for them.
	I option their life rights.
	I write Devaroli's memoir.
	He basically screws me over.
	But I end up suing him from prison.
	Oh, shit.
	Yeah, we settle when I get out.
	But this is towards the end.
	Like, I start writing guys' stories from inside prison.
	And getting articles written.
	I'm working with true crime writers on the street.
	So I'm doing all of this.
	So that Dateline interview did help?
	No!
	It didn't?
	People didn't like...
	No, I mean as in it didn't get you the attention that you wanted and stuff?
	No, because I don't need attention.
	I'm in there with criminals.
	You can't write your story.
	You're a bank robber.
	You rob six banks.
	I can write your story.
	You can't.
	So I write your story, and then maybe I start sending it out to true crime writers, and they're just like, there's a guy in prison writing true crime.
	That's nuts.
	And you're shopping it around for them and shit.
	You're wheeling and dealing.
	And I'm getting everybody to attach their life rights to the project so you can't do anything.
	Like, now I own your life rights.
	Gotcha.
	Right.
	So if, and the life rights is like, I don't, I own them, but you get half of whatever I get, right?
	So if I option it, you get half the option, you know, that whole thing.
	So I'm collecting, I write like seven books and a bunch of synopses, and I'm working with people on the street.
	So this is all going on.
	Then American Greed contacts me.
	Okay.
	American Greed is like Dateline, right?
	But even worse.
	So American Greed contacts me and I call my attorney and she says, I know what you're calling about.
	Like, American Greed, the U.S. attorney's already called.
	She wants you to do it.
	She said she'll consider it substantial assistance.
	Of course.
	And I'm like, oh, she said that last time.
	She's like, what choice do you have?
	And it's like, you're right.
	I don't have a fucking choice.
	So I do the interview.
	What year is this now?
	2010?
	2009 or 10.
	So you've been in jail for about three years now?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	How long were you in the medium before you went to the low?
	Three years.
	And I was locked up for a year in the U.S. Marshall.
	So I've been locked up for going on five years.
	Okay.
	So they do American Greed.
	Yeah, because you didn't get Bond.
	No.
	They run it or air it.
	We go back to the U.S. Attorney.
	We say, hey, we got Dateline and American Greed.
	You said you'd consider substantial assistance.
	And she goes, and I did.
	It's just not enough.
	Wow, again.
	This fucking AUSA is a bitch, bro.
	Keep in mind the Dodd-Frank Act has just passed.
	So now all loan officers and mortgage brokers have to take eight or nine hours of continuing education.
	So I get contacted by a school that teaches these courses, and they said, we want to write a course based on your experience for ethics and fraud.
	And I go, okay, so that guy goes to the U.S. attorney with my lawyer.
	She says I want him to do it.
	I'll definitely consider it substantial assistance.
	We've got an email that says it, everything.
	But once again, it's consider...
	And so I write the ethics and fraud course.
	They start using it.
	Like people are calling my ex-wife going, I just got my – I just did my continuing education course, and half the course is on your husband.
	He wrote the course.
	So it's being used.
	We go back to the U.S. attorney.
	She says, yeah, it's not enough.
	Oh my god.
	So at some point, I end up going to a guy.
	His name is Frank Amadeo.
	He's a rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia.
	He's doing legal work in prison.
	He's a disbarred attorney who got 22 years for...
	The short version is defrauding or stealing nearly $200 million from the federal government.
	Frank...
	Back to Ku in the Congo.
	Frank is, like I said, he's got features of schizophrenia, so he believes that God is telling him he is preordained to be emperor of the world.
	Okay.
	Make that make sense to me.
	You?
	Okay.
	No, he, Frank, here's the voice of God telling him, someday, or you are preordained, you will be emperor of the world.
	Not ruler, not emperor.
	So, I don't even talk to this guy for a couple years, by the way, while I'm at the low.
	Yeah.
	But after I get to a point where I've done all this stuff, I've been pimped out, I finally have a buddy of mine who says, bro, go talk to Frank.
	And I wouldn't have given a shit, like I would have never even tried, because Frank was, I just considered him insane.
	And I'd seen him act insane.
	But literally when you're hearing guys' names being called to R&D, receiving a departure, and you see, you know, T-Dog walking down the strip towards R&D with his bags over his shoulder.
	And you're like, what the fuck's going on?
	He's like, yeah, bro.
	Immediate release.
	What?
	Yeah, Frank won his case.
	What?
	And then a week later, your buddy comes up and says, hey, you know Tom in Unit B3? Yeah, yeah.
	Frank just got 10 years knocked off his sentence.
	Get the fuck out of here.
	Yeah, they're going to put him in a halfway house in about six months.
	Holy shit.
	What?
	So you became a believer?
	Listen, you see that after a year or so, you go, I think I need to talk to Frank.
	Crazy or not.
	So I go, and I talk to Frank, and I explain the situation to him.
	I show him the documents.
	I show him the emails.
	I show him everything that I did.
	And he says, I'm not going to let this happen.
	This is disgusting.
	And he says, you know, and when my legions march on Washington...
	I'm gonna burn the Constitution and the President will kneel at my feet!
	And I'm staring at my buddy who told me this guy should do my legal work, and he's like, just calm down.
	And Frank goes...
	I'm sorry.
	I'm going to need a 2255 form.
	Tell Jimmy that I'm going to need him to type up a motion for...
	And he just starts rambling.
	And people are like, guys grab their shit and start writing down notes.
	And I'm like, the fuck is going on?
	He's like, I'm going to need your transcripts.
	I'm going to need a copy of your judgment commitment.
	I'm going to need a copy of...
	And he starts telling me everything and they're all writing it down.
	Genius.
	And I'm going, I'm doing all my time.
	Like, these guys can't help me.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So the short version is Frank files a 2255, right?
	Which is...
	Basically saying that your lawyer is ineffective is what it says.
	He switches it a little bit, which is not your lawyer is ineffective.
	Your lawyer didn't understand the law, which is different.
	And he's saying my lawyer didn't understand the law because my lawyer told me to cooperate.
	Yeah.
	And she thought that doing these interviews would be substantial assistance, which they're not.
	Because as you said earlier, if you read the statute, substantial assistance is when you help the government get indictments.
	And she told me that wasn't what – now, she told me because you're a prosecutor, but that doesn't matter.
	In the court of law, it works well.
	So we start going back and forth, back and forth over the course of six months, and eventually – the short version is eventually the court issues me an attorney and says, we're going to reduce your sentence.
	And they say they want one level off, which is only like – 30 months or something like that.
	It's like 30 months off.
	Two years.
	Two and a half years.
	Right.
	It's nothing.
	Yeah.
	But what they do is they basically say, but we'll bring you back to court.
	Okay.
	So they bring me back to court.
	I argue.
	My new attorney argues in front of...
	And listen, Millie, my old lawyer, gets on the fucking stand.
	You understand?
	The FBI agent?
	There was an FBI agent that kept coming to see me, trying to build a case, but it never happened.
	She comes and gets on the stand.
	I'm like, everybody's coming.
	On your behalf, okay.
	Everybody.
	And the judge says, you know...
	Mr.
	Cox, like, we're asking for like 13 years off.
	It's not going to happen.
	And the prosecutor's asking for, you know, two years, right?
	Two years and change.
	Two and a half years.
	And he's like, the prosecution's asking for two and a half years.
	That's not nearly enough for what Mr.
	Cox has done.
	He's like, but Mr.
	Cox, he's like, you're asking for 13 years.
	That was never going to happen.
	And I'm like, oh my God.
	And so he gives me, he says, I'm going to give you three levels off, and that ends up being seven years.
	That's seven years.
	Seven years.
	So three levels is seven years.
	It keeps going down incrementally.
	A little over half.
	Yeah.
	So if one level is 30 months, the next level down might be 29 or 28.
	The next level down might be 20.
	See what I'm saying?
	It keeps going down.
	So it ends up being, yeah, seven years off.
	So I go back to court.
	I mean, I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	I come back and, you know, I got seven years off my sentence, right?
	Like, I've already done seven years.
	So I got seven.
	So I got like eight or nine years left.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Like, that's it.
	That's what it is.
	Now, I didn't think I could do seven years to begin with.
	I've already done seven.
	So it's like, I can do this.
	And I've been writing all these stories.
	And I'm getting money sent in.
	And I'm building like a body of work.
	And I figure I can get out.
	Maybe I'll...
	How old are you at that time, roughly?
	Bro, I'm old, bro.
	Like, I'm...
	What was I, like 40...
	I was like 45.
	I'm like 45 at this point.
	Anyway, so I get back and that's it.
	I've got like seven more years.
	I've got seven or eight more years.
	And listen, by the way, so now I'm at the low.
	Everybody knows I went back to court.
	Everybody knows I got my sentence.
	So now I'm a snitch walking around the compound.
	Oh, they assumed you were a snitch.
	Well, I was a snitch.
	It's like guys that say, oh, I didn't tell on nobody.
	Because the FBI went over there and testified on your behalf, too.
	They just know.
	Cox went back.
	Time off.
	You can ask anybody to take a look at the BOP website.
	Seven years just knocked off his sentence.
	Something happened.
	Anyway, so that's not good.
	Not that anybody's bothering me.
	But it's kind of known.
	And they don't really say anything.
	But everybody knows.
	And some people just blatantly know.
	I've had a conversation with them.
	I've told them what happened.
	But they also think to themselves, hey, he didn't really snitch on anybody because nobody got arrested.
	Like, he got it off for these interviews and writing that ethics course.
	They're like, okay, that's kind of like a Frank Abagnale thing, right?
	Like, kiss me if he can.
	That's okay.
	So they're kind of okay with it, whatever.
	And I've been there so long.
	Fuck them.
	So I come back, and I remember I went to Frank Amadeo.
	You're probably the OG there, because the seven years in the low is very...
	Yeah, most guys are there to do their last two to three years.
	Yeah, they're not there too long.
	Unless you're really old.
	So anyway, I go to Frank, and I remember I told Frank, I said, Frank, as soon as I got out from the bus, I went straight and found him.
	I said, hey, and he already knew how much time I got off.
	I said, hey, I got seven years off.
	He said, yeah, I know, I heard.
	And I said, I don't want to, it's not that I'm not appreciative, but I was really hoping for more.
	And I said, so was I, so was I. He said, we're probably going to have to eat this elephant one spoonful at a time.
	He said, keep your ears open.
	He said, something will happen.
	And I went, and I thought, oh, I don't know what the fuck that means.
	But I'm like, okay, okay.
	So, I leave.
	You know, I'm walking around over the next few months, and there was a guy named Ron Wilson there.
	So, Ron Wilson had stolen, it was a $100 million Ponzi scheme.
	Mm-hmm.
	But he'd actually just stolen...
	It was actually just lost like $57 million, right?
	Gone.
	Blown it over the course of 15 years.
	And the bulk of them came from pension funds, retirees, churches.
	Like...
	Just, you know, vicious.
	Like, everything about him was vicious.
	But, you know, so he was an old con man, right?
	He was like 63, 64, I think, something like that.
	But I liked Ron, you know?
	I hung out with him.
	We would talk, shoot the shit.
	He knew I went back.
	He'd been locked up maybe about a year and a half.
	And he was cooperating with the Secret Service...
	Against people that had helped him in his fraud and other frauds.
	So he's cooperating.
	And I say this because that's just what happened.
	But had Ron Wilson been a 22-year-old kid...
	Nothing would have changed from what I'm about to tell you.
	So I'm walking around the compound with Ron Wilson, and we're walking and talking, and he's saying to me, well, he's talking about his case, whatever, and he says, yeah, He said, ah, the fucking FBI, or the Secret Service, like, they're never going to reduce my sentence, even if they arrest all these people.
	And I go, why do you say that?
	He's like, well, you don't understand.
	They think I've hidden Ponzi scheme money.
	I'm like, okay, well, they would have to find the Ponzi scheme money to prove that, so they have to give you something.
	And if not, we'll have Frank file a motion.
	And he's like, yeah, you don't understand.
	I'm like, okay, whatever.
	He's a grumpy old guy.
	And so we're walking around, and then he, two weeks later, he mentions it again.
	A couple days later, he mentions it again.
	And I go, why do you keep saying this, bro?
	Like, you didn't hide any Ponzi scheme money, so that's not, there's no way for them to withhold your sentence reduction for that.
	And he goes...
	Can I trust you?
	And I go, probably not.
	And he goes, I did put away some money.
	I knew it.
	And I went, okay.
	I said, Well, I mean, are they going to find it?
	So I gave my wife like $100,000 or $150,000 in cash and some bullion and gold because this whole scheme was based on silver, right?
	I gave her some gold and silver and maybe $150,000 total.
	And my brother's got maybe $20,000 or $30,000.
	I said...
	I said, okay, well, you said they've already talked to them and they denied having anything.
	And he's like, yeah, they did.
	Sorry.
	And he says, yeah, they did.
	I said, okay, well, they're not going to now tell them.
	And he's like, my wife knows.
	That my brother has some money.
	And he said, my wife, his wife in the course of the investigation found out he was having an affair.
	And my wife, she's bipolar.
	You have no idea how crazy she is.
	She'll burn the whole house around her.
	She doesn't care.
	She's going to make sure I don't get out of prison.
	And they're currently getting a divorce.
	Damn.
	And I'm like, fuck, bro.
	And I'm like, well, she ended up getting indicted if she told.
	So I doubt that's going to happen.
	Oh, you don't understand.
	Okay.
	So we keep walking.
	And the government didn't want to give me anything to begin with, remember?
	And when I got to court, they argued for me to get nothing, like one level.
	So I'm thinking to myself, like, is what he told me enough to get a sentence reduction?
	Oh, shit.
	So if I tell on old Ron, is that enough?
	And I went, that's not enough.
	They're going to recover what?
	Less than $200,000?
	That's if these people give it up?
	And then if I tell, he's going to know, I told.
	And I'm going to get shipped.
	And my mother comes to see me every two weeks.
	I can't get moved from this location.
	I'm already in a—they're already trying to send me to a fucking camp because now I have less than seven years—I have seven or eight years to go.
	I'm like, fuck.
	Like, I can't say anything.
	Okay.
	I lay down in bed.
	I wait.
	It's like a month and a half, maybe a month.
	And I have to call my lawyer because I had written my memoir, but I hadn't had it published, and I wanted to get some of the transcripts, right, from my sentencing because the FBI said cool things.
	Like, people said some good stuff.
	Yeah.
	So, okay.
	So I call her up.
	I said, hey, I never got the transcripts.
	You said you were going to send me the transcripts.
	And she's like, oh, Matt, I'm so sorry.
	I had to wait a few weeks for them to get ordered.
	This is literally within a month or two of me coming back.
	She's like, you're right.
	They should be done.
	I'll send them to you.
	I go, okay, okay.
	I go, okay, well, thanks.
	I said, all right, I'll talk to you later.
	And she goes, oh, what's going on?
	So what do you mean?
	She goes, what's happening?
	What's happening?
	So she didn't want to talk to me ever.
	She's a public defender.
	And I'm like, I don't know, nothing.
	She has nothing happening there?
	And I went, no.
	I said, you know what?
	Listen to this.
	There's a guy named Ron Wilson.
	He told me where he hid Ponzi scheme money.
	She goes, hold on.
	She goes, oh, wow.
	This is a bad guy.
	This is like a $100 million Ponzi scheme.
	How much was it?
	I go, no, I don't want to say over the phone, but it wasn't a lot.
	It wasn't a lot.
	She goes, okay, well, let me look into this for you.
	And I went...
	Okay.
	Like, I'm thinking, I'll never hear from this chick again.
	I'm going to get my transcript and never hear from her again.
	Hang up the phone.
	A week, maybe four or five days later, a CO comes up to me and goes, Cox, you've got to go to SIS. SIS is like their internal security.
	I go, next move, because they have control movements, you've got to go to SIS. I go, alright, cool, whatever.
	Like, he does it on the down low, right?
	Because you don't want to be seen going to SIS. Yeah, that's like their intel people too.
	Right, it's like you're a snitch if you go.
	But what do I give a fuck?
	So, I go...
	To SIS. I knock on the door.
	They go, Cox, come in here.
	Sit down.
	I sit down.
	The fucking lieutenant calls, dials the phone number, says, here, you've got to talk to this guy.
	And I go, hello?
	And the guy goes, hey, my name's agent, like, Griffin, something Griffin, with the Secret Service.
	And I understand that you know where Ron Wilson hid Ponzi scheme money.
	And I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
	I said, I want something in writing that says, and I tell him, blah, blah, blah.
	And he goes, okay, okay.
	First he tries to tell me, oh, I promise you'll get something.
	I said, no, your word doesn't mean anything.
	No, no, I need a U.S. prosecutor.
	You're legally allowed to lie to me.
	So anyway, he ends up sending me something like two, three weeks later, and then they start asking me questions, and I answer the questions.
	And they're asking me questions, by the way, about all kinds of shit.
	Can you ask Ron Wilson this?
	I'm like, how the fuck am I going to ask him that?
	I don't even know who that person is.
	I'm going to bring up something he's never mentioned?
	Are you trying to get me fucking stabbed?
	Are you trying to get me killed?
	But this goes on for like six months.
	And then one day, they call in the brother and the wife.
	And the brother gives them...
	$150,000, not 30.
	And the wife comes in and gives them like $350,000.
	That was a half a million dollars.
	Oh shit.
	And so they're like, so Ron, one day, I know this has happened.
	They're telling me that we brought them in.
	This is what happened.
	Boom, boom, boom.
	I'm like, oh shit.
	They're like, they're being indicted.
	Wilson's going to get indicted again.
	I'm like, oh fuck.
	Like I really didn't think they'd indict him because he's already got 19 and a half years.
	He's going to die in prison.
	Yeah.
	And so, okay, no big deal.
	So I go, oh, okay.
	And so I'm thinking, fuck, how is this going to affect me?
	Are they going to move me?
	Because to be honest, I don't really think they're going to fucking do anything for me.
	And so what happens is one day Ron, a week later, Ron sees me from across the compound.
	He goes, Cox!
	Cox!
	And I'm like, fuck.
	This ain't good.
	I mean, look, he's an old man.
	But at this point, like I said, he's 65, 63, 64, something like that.
	But it doesn't matter.
	He might attack me.
	I'll go to the shoe.
	I can't have him running around telling people this.
	It's not good for me.
	Not that it's going to change much, but I could get shipped.
	And so he's, Cox, Cox.
	And I'm like, yeah, what's up?
	What's going on?
	He's like...
	No!
	No!
	Why?
	It turns out that they interviewed my wife and my brother and they gave him half a million dollars.
	I go, half a million dollars?
	And I go, I thought it was like a couple hundred thousand or something like that.
	And he goes, well, I didn't want to tell you the exact number.
	He's like, I didn't trust you.
	And I go, Ron, how could you not trust me?
	So, listen, this is real.
	I could tell you about being and having to join a gang and getting in knife fights and stuff, but this is really prison.
	So, yeah, so he ends up – he goes, yeah, they're bringing me back to South Carolina.
	So they put him on a bus a couple days later.
	They bring him back to South Carolina.
	During that stay, he gets his discovery.
	Oh, shit.
	His discovery has quite a few emails between Matt Cox, his buddy, and the Secret Service.
	There you go.
	Oh, shit.
	So he finds out it's you.
	Yeah, he finds out it's me.
	So what happens is...
	Why do they do that, though, Myron?
	Why do they tell the person who's actually telling on them?
	Why did you do that?
	You have to.
	You got time off.
	No, no, no.
	They're telling Ron that he did it.
	Well, because it's part of your discovery.
	He has to be able to mount a defense.
	What if he wants to go to trial?
	Look, the Constitution even says you have to be able to face your accusers.
	So I'm one of the accusers.
	And I get it.
	That's how he knew who snitched on him is because when he got all of the reports back from Secret Service, everything they did in their case shows everybody that cooperated against them.
	And the fact is that if you cooperate against somebody, there's lots of people that want to cooperate and they don't want to be called a snitch.
	Okay, well, you know, you have to balance that.
	You have to balance, like, do I earn the respect of my fellow criminals?
	Or do I get fucking a chunk of time off my sentence?
	You gotta take it off and go home, sir.
	Hey, Chad, just so you guys know, we're gonna do FNF News shortly here.
	We're gonna wrap up here.
	Don't worry.
	I know you guys are probably like, yo, what the hell?
	Don't worry.
	We're gonna do the new FNF News, but this is a great story.
	I don't want to interrupt it.
	Yeah, I can wrap it up real quick.
	Go ahead, go ahead.
	So what ends up happening is...
	So he gets superseded, indicted.
	They send him back to South Carolina.
	Yeah, he gets six more months on his sentence.
	Okay.
	That's it.
	So he gets 20 years now.
	Right.
	And listen, COVID hits.
	Oh.
	They release him.
	Oh, shit.
	Wilson only does like six or seven years on his whole sentence, on a 20-year sentence.
	Wow.
	So my six months didn't do anything.
	Now his wife and his brother are indicted, and they're given community service.
	Okay, that makes sense.
	They just held the money.
	For, what do they call it?
	Obstruction of justice.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	They had the money.
	They got a bullshit charge.
	Now, I, of course, go back to the U.S. attorney and say, hey, I want my sentence reduced.
	And I even have a letter that says that the U.S. attorney said they would reduce it.
	And the U.S. attorney says, we don't know what you're talking about.
	Yeah, because another district you helped out.
	Right, it was another district.
	Yeah.
	So we ended up sending, but still, they're like, what?
	That's crazy.
	And we're like, no, no.
	So we have the letter, we send it.
	There's a lot of back and forth, but they basically, at some point, they finally say, okay, fine, we'll reduce your sentence.
	We're going to give you one level.
	We argue, Frank and I argue, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and they end up knocking five years off my sentence.
	Nice.
	So now I've got a total of 12 months off my sentence, and by the time that happens, I'm like a year and a half away from the door.
	Oh, wow.
	So I get out of prison like a year and a half later.
	I go to the halfway house.
	And that's...
	So I go to the halfway house.
	I do seven months in the halfway house.
	And then I move out of the halfway house.
	And I end up going...
	I move into somebody's spare room.
	And, you know, whatever.
	I start going on podcasts.
	I go to Concrete.
	I get like...
	Do you have your own channel?
	You have a true crime channel now on YouTube?
	Right.
	Yeah, I was going to say, I go on Concrete, I get like 2 million views, I go on Patrick Bet David, I get another 2 million views, I go on, you know, I start getting all these, and then I start my own true crime podcast.
	Yeah, and I just started that like four years ago.
	Wow.
	And then I've got, I optioned my life rights recently, and optioned a bunch of my stories.
	You got married again?
	I got married to a chick in the halfway house who did five years for a meth conspiracy who desperately didn't want to date me.
	She didn't do the meth, guys.
	She sold the meth.
	You're a smooth talker, though.
	You're a smooth talker, man.
	You got it.
	Yeah, she's super cool.
	Super happy.
	That's a crazy story, man.
	I gotta give that a thumbs up, man.
	I mean, this is a movie.
	Literally, bro.
	He told you he was gonna make one.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, Matt, I wish we had a little bit more time, man.
	No, that was awesome.
	Can you tell the people where they can find you?
	Yeah, it's Matthew Cox, Inside True Crime.
	And basically, 95% of it is me interviewing long-form content where I interview other criminals.
	And then I also interview law enforcement like retired FBI, former CIA, that sort of thing.
	Periodically.
	I'll jump on your thing, bro.
	Yeah, I was going to say, you should...
	I mean, that's the least I could do, obviously.
	Is he really going to...
	No, I will.
	I'll do it, bro.
	I'll do it.
	I did Johnny Mitchell.
	You know what I mean?
	I don't mind going in and definitely talking about that other life that I used to have when I was in law enforcement.
	So no, I think the people would like it.
	Did you go to L.A.? No, he actually was here in Miami.
	Oh, okay.
	So we ended up doing it here.
	But yeah, he was, hey, I'm in town, blah, blah, blah.
	I was like, yeah, sure, bro.
	You can use the studio, whatever.
	So he came.
	We filmed it.
	I did an interview for his, and then he did an interview for me.
	Okay.
	Good stuff.
	So yeah, I owe you one, bro.
	So no, I'll be happy to fucking do it.
	I'll just watch from afar.
	Anyhow, we're from our sponsor.
	Wait, well, what I'm thinking is we read our chats on the next one.
	We're from sponsor.
	We're from sponsor, at least.
	We're from sponsors?
	Okay, go ahead.
	Because they've been waiting to rumble.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Go, man, right.
	I gotta read it.
	Okay.
	It's time to say goodbye to Starbucks and hello to Rumble 1775 Coffee.
	As you guys saw, we were drinking it the whole time.
	Yes.
	I actually have it in here right now as we speak.
	Me too.
	Unlike other brands, this is the coffee that backs free speech.
	It's unapologetic about it.
	Visit 1775coffee.com.
	Use the promo code STUDIO to get 15% off.
	The coffee comes in medium and dark roast.
	It also comes in Peaberry, which is a similar to kind of coffee.
	In other words, this stuff is premium.
	Click the link in the live chat or the description.
	You can also go directly to 1775coffee.com and use the promo code STUDIO to get 15% off.
	And you niggas better buy it because we wait until the end to fucking read that promo for you motherfuckers.
	So you guys better get the fucking coffee because we've been drinking the whole damn show.
	That's how we're able to give you guys a damn good interview.
	How was the coffee?
	Did you enjoy it, Matt?
	Yeah, it was real good.
	Yeah.
	And you made it, so...
	There you go.
	It's always better when you force women to do it.
	Anyway, guys, hope you guys enjoyed the show, man.
	We're gonna literally transition and go on with Elijah Saip.
	We're gonna cover the FNF News.
	There's so much stuff to cover, guys.
	And Matthew, thank you for being honest, being, I wanna say, Donald Wright, a good storyteller, and thank you for coming, man.
	It was great.
	Maybe we'll do something again in the future.
	I owe you an interview, so we'll definitely do it.
	Yeah.
	No, because we know we should do something what it's like after.
	A part two.
	After.
	After.
	After prison.
	Okay.
	Let's do it.
	Cool.
	Matt, thank you so much, man.
	It was an awesome interview.
	Seriously, one of my favorites.
	Thank you, bro.
	I'm trying to think.
	Did he call us right now with that story?
	Nah, man.
	It's real.
	It's definitely real.
	Hey, guys.
	We'll be back here.
	Give us about 10 minutes and we'll reset and be back on Live Shade for FNF News coming on up.
	Guys, we'll check you out.
	Peace.
	Peace.
	I ran.
	I ran so far away.
	I just ran.

▲