Epoch Times - The CCP's Gloves Are Off in Trade War—What’s Next?

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Oct. 18, 2025 - Epoch Times

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The CCP's Gloves Are Off in Trade War—What’s Next? | Lee Smith

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	The Chinese Communist Party has taken its gloves off, imposing unprecedented controls on rare earths.
	Why?
	It's a communist party.
	They're not in the global system to play fair.
	They believe in dominating the system.
	In this episode, I sit down with Lee Smith, author of The Plot Against the President and his new book, The China Matrix.
	Wow.
	Penicillin and everything else is made in Wuhan.
	Almost all of our pharmaceuticals come from the People's Republic of China.
	What will we do?
	From pharmaceuticals to critical minerals.
	China's a major producer at this point.
	Who allowed the CCP to gain such deep control over America's critical resources?
	It was simply American corruption that's allowed all of this to happen.
	And that's certainly the point that Donald Trump makes in the book.
	This is American Thought Leaders.
	And I'm Yanya Kelly.
	Lee Smith, so good to have you back on American Thought Leaders.
	Jan, it's always a huge pleasure to be back with you on American Thought Leaders and to speak with you, my uh my dear friend.
	You have written a book for the ages, my friend, uh The China Matrix.
	Recently, something happened that I describe as communist China taking off its gloves.
	And that is these very, very detailed international uh rare earth export restrictions.
	Um why don't you lay out what you think happened here?
	Yeah.
	Um, well, this was in particular a response to the Trump administration's commerce department listing a number of different Chinese entities.
	And as it turns out, these entities, what they'd been doing is they had access to U.S. technology, which they bought, and they passed it on to the Iranians, and the Iranians passed it on to their proxies, uh Hamas and the Houthis.
	And in fact, it was found October 7th.
	It was used in the October 7, 2023 um uh massacre.
	So what the Trump administration is trying to do is try to protect U.S. national security from adversarial regimes.
	The Chinese are trying to help adversaries or they are helping adversaries of the United States.
	And so when Donald Trump, the Trump administration came down and said, This is bad.
	We're not gonna let you do this anymore.
	We're gonna sharply restrict your ability to do this.
	The Chinese said, Oh, really?
	How about if we go nuclear and give you no access to rare earth without having to go through an arduous process?
	So that's what happened.
	Jan, the way you put it is is accurate.
	It's like they've taken off their velvet glove and and shown what they really are.
	The argument in my book here, The China Matrix is that Velvet Glove was stitched here in the United States over the course of the last half century.
	As you've been saying here, as your colleagues at Epoch Times have been saying for years, is let's remember it's a communist party.
	That's what the regime is.
	It's a brutal regime, it's brutal, uh, it's brutal to Chinese inside of China, outside of China, and it's brutal to all of its adversaries, including the United States and our allies.
	And um, it's really Americans who have corporate as well as political elites, and again, this is the subject of the book, who have protected the Chinese Communist Party regime and and uh who have advanced this regime, made it the threat it really is today.
	Well, so we were founded back in 2000 to actually explain the reality of communist China to Americans, uh to I mean people the world over, in fact.
	It's actually been an incredibly difficult thing to do because it's in the end, it's not that complicated, as you said.
	It's a communist regime.
	Human life is not at the top of the list of priorities for any communist party, especially to the Chinese Communist Party, uh uh, nor win-win relationships with with other nations.
	Uh and but how did we even get to this point where uh the Chinese Communist Party holds control over such a significant portion of the supply chain?
	And we can use the rare earths or the critical minerals as an example.
	Well, I mean, what they did was they can underbid almost anyone, and this is what this is what they did in the pharmaceutical industry.
	And you'll remember after COVID, people were deeply concerned to realize like, oh wow, penicillin and everything else is is made in Wuhan.
	Almost all of our pharmaceuticals come from the People's Republic of China.
	what will we do?
	What can we do?
	And the way that they did, they did this with steel.
	They've done it with a number of uh what people call strategic industries.
	And what people mean by strategic industries is if uh you need steel, for instance, to build ships, and you need it to build a whole bunch of other different munitions.
	If you don't make your own steel, then you're dependent on what is what is right now your number one adversary.
	Uh I mean there are other countries around the world that make steel, but but China's a major producer at this point.
	We're talking about the same thing in terms of pharmaceuticals.
	Uh I mean, uh uh imagine if we really wound up uh in uh in a hot conflict with the Chinese communist party, right?
	I mean, what happens with different when different uh you know, different American soldiers, marines, uh airmen, sailors are wounded, and they need and they need medication.
	Well, that's coming from China.
	So but the the Chinese had a plan for that, and that's what they did.
	And um, you know, there were no measures or few measures to protect American industries.
	People just figured, well, what are we gonna do?
	We can't compete with them, we'll have to do something else.
	And this is part of what we saw in the 90s when there was the whole idea like, well, we don't need to do manufacturing anymore, we'll become uh a service economy.
	And a lot of people made fun of it at the time, and a lot of other people thought it was a brilliant stroke of genius.
	And look, it wasn't just the Clinton administration, there were a lot of Republicans as well.
	And that's the story the book tells.
	It's not just Democrats here, it's Republicans.
	Remember, this relationship started with Richard M. Nixon and Henry Kissinger, who uh who first went to uh the city once called Peiking in February 1972.
	So some of it at a certain point was um honest miscalculation, and at a certain point there was no way to to uh rationalize it or excuse it anymore.
	It was simply American corruption that that's allowed all of this to happen.
	And that's certainly the point that Donald Trump makes in the book.
	And uh I interviewed Donald Trump at a great length in this book.
	And uh he has the he has the first word and the last word in the book.
	How could the Chinese Communist Party dominate the market so thoroughly with steel?
	Can you walk me through that process?
	Well, I mean, the big I I have a couple people talk about it, uh talk about it in here, including uh uh steel former steel executive, a guy named Dan Demico, who's really great, um, big fan of Donald Trump.
	And what happened was that the Chinese they just dumped it on the market.
	It's subsidized, right?
	It's subsidized by by the party, so they can afford basically to underbid anyone they want.
	And this is a huge problem for the United States around the world, that they can they can underbid us because it's subsidized.
	So it happened with steel, it happened with pharmaceuticals.
	Look back, um, I guess it was well, I I again I quote Mr. Damico in in this story.
	It's like, you know, the United States, we weren't the top manufacturer of steel, but we were way up there.
	The Chinese were way down.
	Uh, you know, I think Japan was on top, and the Chinese just decided they were going to target the steel industry.
	So they just started producing steel, overproducing steel, uh, and they just started dumping it on markets and they destroyed, you know, they they they greatly damaged our steel industry.
	And they they do that up and down the board.
	This is something that they do.
	This is not really the fault of American executives.
	This is something they do.
	But it is the fault of American, American political officials who should have been looking at this for a long time and saying, what are we gonna do if we can't make when we can't make our own ships?
	What are we gonna do when we can't make our own munitions?
	Again, Dan Domico talks in here, it's like we we don't, we we we don't have uh we have very limited smelting facilities.
	So this is a huge deal.
	And Donald Trump is the first president, first American president who has brought people's attention to it.
	There have been other figures in the past on the right, like Jesse Helms and on the left, like Dick Eppart, but Donald Trump is the first man who's elected president uh who talked about China, and he's been talking about the problems with China dating back at least to the year 2000.
	You know, one thing I wanted to kind of spell out is that this dumping, the subsidizing you described, that's an effect of state-level industrial policy.
	This is so there really there's no independent, you know, kind of steel industry and communist China.
	No, it's a function of national security policy, and something you talk about in the book, which is incredibly important, which I talk about quite a bit, but I'd like to uh you to talk about a bit to start, is uh this idea of unrestricted warfare of using any means as a means of warfare outside of actual kinetic warfare.
	Well, you know, General Spaulding, who I believe that you've spoken with him, General Spaulding wrote an excellent book on this, and he went back and looked at these two uh two Chinese colonels who said, you know, the United States, they pulled off an astonishing victory in Operation Desert Storm, but there's never going to be another war like that, and we're going to make sure there's never going to be another war like that.
	So we'll just use every other means to make war against the United States.
	And really, and and really, if you if you look at the different things that have gone on since the 1990s, whether we're talking about the world the China's entry into the World Trade Organization, whether we're talking about its position in the World Health Organization, whether we're talking about, as you say, it's industrial policy.
	This is all the means of making war at the United States.
	And you look at how the U.S. has been targeted economically.
	The big holdup in Donald Trump's first term, Donald Trump wanted a comprehensive trade deal with uh the Chinese.
	What was the problem?
	Donald Trump wanted an end to currency manipulation.
	He wanted the Chinese to stop stealing American intellectual property with American companies were in China.
	He wanted uh to stop the forced transfers attack and a whole bunch of other things, which is just China cheating.
	And they said, No, we can't do that.
	And why?
	It's a communist party.
	So I think that during that first term, Donald Trump understood what that industrial policy was about, right?
	They're not in the global system to play fair.
	They're not in the global system because they believe in uh they believe in balance of powers.
	They believe in dominating the system.
	And the fact that, you know, it's not like Xi Jinping needed it pointed out to him that they manipulate that they manipulate the one, uh Yuan.
	The fact that Donald Trump and his negotiators talked about this with them, and they finally came back and said, no, sorry, we can't do it.
	As it turns out, it's against Chinese law.
	We have to keep cheating.
	So that was uh that was one instance that Xi gave uh Donald Trump evidence to distrust him.
	And and that's where we are now in Donald Trump's second term.
	I think it's important for us to realize this.
	He does not trust Xi Jinping.
	He does not trust the Chinese Communist Party.
	Well, I'm going to now read this is the perfect moment to read the president's observation that you uh cataloged in your book through your interview with him.
	So this is what he said, and this is uh looking at that precise trade deal that you mentioned, right?
	He said, I think you have some very powerful forces in China.
	President Xi is a very smart and powerful man, but you have other forces that are strong.
	I saw it firsthand.
	He viewed my relationship with him and my position as president as very important.
	They were very embarrassed when they said this to us because this was like having a deal ready to be signed, and the deal was virtually ready to be signed, and then they withdrew it.
	And I believe that they had some additional forces in China that did not want to.
	I have no doubt in my mind, but that deal didn't happen.
	So this is incredibly interesting because there was this, you know, agreement, verbal agreement from Xi, yet the deal was withdrawn, and then this sort of second uh uh highly watered down version of a deal came through.
	Um I'm gonna get your thoughts on this.
	Well, I uh Jan, I'm really glad you picked that out because I think it's a really important thing and really fascinating because it gives an insight into what Donald Trump not only thinks about G, but how Donald Trump is trying to position G, right?
	Does Donald Trump does he really believe that there are powerful forces behind Xi that uh made it impossible for Xi to strike that deal?
	Or is Donald Trump basically saying, because he says uh somewhere in there, what does he say?
	Not disrespect, but he said, No, I don't mind, but it's basically that.
	I don't mean to be disrespectful, but there are really powerful forces there, and he couldn't get it done.
	So is he trying to poke Gi?
	Do you know what I'm saying?
	Or is it a combination of all different things?
	He's saying X's not as strong as he lets on.
	There are other more powerful forces behind him.
	So do you know what I'm saying?
	I think it's a combination of different things.
	I think Donald Trump also believes, you know, different people told me about that uh negotiations for that deal.
	They said, well, you know, well, even communist parties have politics they have to deal with.
	So that's one way to understand it, and that's one way that Donald Trump is talking about it.
	But I also think that Donald Trump is zeroing in on Xi there, right?
	He knows he, you know, he he's sensing he's gonna deal with him again.
	He's gonna have to negotiate with him again and what does he want uh Xi Jinping to know about what Donald Trump thinks about it.
	So I thought when the president was talking about this, it was super interesting and super masterful.
	What will Xi make of it when he says, oh, so Trump says that I don't, that I'm not the I'm not the ultimate power.
	Secretary, uh general secretary of the Communist Party, president of the state, and also head of the military, I'm I'm not the main power.
	Okay.
	Um so yeah, I'm really glad you picked up on that.
	Well it's very interesting because I do think there's an element of what you just described.
	I'll tell you what I was thinking as I read this piece and that is President Trump understands that the Chinese Communist Party or the survival and supremacy of the Chinese communist party is the number one priority in this system even above that of the survival of the general secretary and so forth.
	So the way I read this right is I see him understanding that there's basically some some powers let's call it the 200 you know top families that rule the country let's call it the people who have influence in the military in the Politburo standing committee, the Politbureau itself and especially now as we know that she has lost a considerable amount of power are some people argue very convincingly that perhaps even the military isn't really under his control anymore.
	These powers are are kind of ascendant and in fact you know playing a much bigger role in the decision making well what struck me when I was speaking with President Trump about this and later as I started to look at it more it's like the the different things that they were asking for again stopping basically stopping cheating right but that's the nature of the regime.
	So Donald Trump is basically demanding that was his that was his deal that's what he wanted the deal was you must change your nature Chinese communist party regime.
	If you really want to enter the world system you must change your nature and the regime with Xi at the top and again it's unclear it's unclear what the president was describing and how much he was poking a G. But certainly yes the Communist Party regime spoke as one no we're not going anywhere.
	We will not we we will not erase our character at the request of the American president right so that's a very important thing I think to keep in the background or maybe perhaps the foreground as we understand the different negotiations and different talks now.
	But Donald Trump other American presidents talk about it right to say oh China must stop doing this they must stop doing that and we must challenge China and do this and that well Trump is right up against it and look at where he is right now with the tariffs and look at what he's talking about.
	I mean I mean that the you know 100% tariffs I mean this is astonishing right so so Donald Trump is actually fighting it and he understands what it means again I I'm I'm certain that that he understands what he's asking for is something that the Chinese Communist Party cannot do.
	And now as opposed to the first term I mean Jan is as as you describe and as others have talked about it, this regime is more fragile now than it was eight years ago.
	So I I want to jump into the bigger picture of how we ultimately got there because you chart that incredibly well in the China matrix.
	Before I go there, I want to explore a little bit more about this specific particular moment, right?
	Arguably this whole tariff regime liberation day right that this from what I saw back then and I still continue to believe this as I see the activity a lot of it is centered on forcing China either to participate in the system the the rules based system so to speak when it comes to trade or you know suffer immensely.
	But the the reality is that there's this deep deep in economic integration which again you chart very in detail uh and this uh in the China matrix and this is something that was part of the project of the Chinese Communist Party all along like if you're gonna if we're gonna have pain you're gonna have a lot of pain yourself.
	So here we are what what what can happen now?
	Well part of the integral part of what people talk about this deep integration well one of the things that we saw during COVID was is that those uh supply lines uh are are are again somewhat fragile that they can be they can be broken rather easily they can be disrupted rather easily and so that's why a lot of American companies actually have chosen to have chosen to resource I think that one of the things that people meet when they say how how interwoven we are is, and this is a very, very important thing to understand about the trade deficit.
	When Donald Trump notes that, you know, the our trade deficit now over since China entered the World Trade Organization in 2001, our trade deficit is worth many, many trillions of dollars, right?
	But a lot of that money, it's important to understand.
	That's American companies.
	We're running a trade deficit not only with the People's Republic of China.
	We're running a trade deficit with American and other Western companies who have chosen to take their manufacturing to China, where uh there are no uh there's no regulatory regime.
	Labor is very cheap.
	Obviously, there's no protection for no protection for labor.
	And so they're making tons and tons of money exporting from China back to the United States.
	So that's what people mean in lots of ways when they say it's so integrated.
	What they mean is they're making tons of money.
	Americans and other Westerners are making tons and tons of money in China, and they're very reluctant to let that go.
	And they have one, uh they have one important card in their hand, and that is that Donald Trump has three years left, right?
	And there's no indication that whether uh I mean, look, I think that most of the people who appear who would be running for president from the Republican side appear to be very good on China.
	Uh Democrats certainly someone like Gavin Newsom, uh, much less so.
	But this is what American American manufacturers, and this is what uh Chinese officials are counting on.
	And that in the meantime, people will throw a whole bunch of stuff at Trump to keep him off balance to make sure that he's not able to focus on China.
	And when he is able to focus on China, they'll do stuff like uh like they did last week with the rare earth uh rare earth minerals.
	Um but but uh but to come back to the the idea of the integration.
	This is by the way, why President Trump always likes to talk about Tim Cook, why he had him at the joint session of uh Congress in February, why he's talked about him in the White House, because Tim Cook says, yes, we're coming back, we're investing a lot of money in the United States.
	So Donald Trump wants to promote that American corporations that are coming back, moving back their facilities to America because it's not just it's a big thing is American jobs.
	It's a very, very important thing, getting American jobs back.
	But another big thing is it's that trade deficit that we've been running with China that's basically paid for their military.
	And and and that's an enormous deal.
	So I think that really that Donald Donald Trump's idea of the terrorist and the trade deficit, the trade imbalance being the fundamental problem, I I think that's a really holistic way to see it.
	Well, you you put it really well.
	Okay, we're talking about the jobs, that's one, right?
	Two funding, you know, military and you know, the the growth of an adversary, if not enemy.
	I don't know if the the distinction between those two words in particular.
	But finally, uh you're talking about an unbelievable amount of lobbying power, because if if your manufacturing facilities of some of the you know greatest country, uh what some of the greatest companies in America are actually you know dependent on that import, right?
	And of on importing goods from there, you have a wild amount of leverage, right?
	So I mean it's it's it really is a holistic comprehensive issue.
	Let's talk about the because the way that the China lobby operates is fantastically interesting.
	Um, you know, the way that I though the book, you know, Jan, it's a story.
	The protagonist, the good guy is Donald Trump, and he stands in for all the good guys.
	The bad guy is Henry Kissinger.
	Uh, because not just because Henry Kissinger was at the uh, you know, was at the origins of this relationship with Nixon, but because Henry Kissinger made a career out of it and he made many a lot of money off it and he made other people a lot of money.
	Um and it's also Kissinger built institutions to protect his interpretation or his version of this very dangerous relationship for Americans.
	How the China lobby worked was Kissinger is never paid directly by China.
	People don't uh don't understand that.
	Uh, Kissinger was paid by American corporations that wanted to do business in China.
	So what Kissinger would do was he would take them on long trips to Beijing and uh they'd be wind and dine.
	And I mean, this started with, you know, uh it started in the 1970s after Kissinger after Kissinger uh left government and and went on until Kissinger's death in December 2023.
	So what they would do is uh the American corporations would hear uh uh counter pitches from Chinese officials saying, yeah, we're sure we're very interested in you doing business here.
	But what's really important to us is um, and these are big businesses, right?
	These are not small mom and pop organizations, these are big American multinationals that have the ears at least of the president of the United States and Congress.
	So they can make a phone call and they can get people on the phone, you know, they can get someone in the White House on the phone right away.
	So China liked that idea very much.
	They're not paying for anything.
	They say, yeah, we sure we'd love to have you set up manufacturing here.
	And uh, but here's what, you know, here's what you have to do.
	You have to make sure that China stays open.
	It's in your interest, right?
	To make sure that China stays open, and it's in our interest too.
	And that's I mean, that there is actually a China lobby that pays people money to lobby for China, but the most influential lobbyists are these uh are our political donors, right?
	People with uh companies worth billions and billions of dollars.
	So they're not only making the case for China uh to the people uh to the recipients of their donations, they're also telling the people who are getting those donations like you better be nice to China.
	That's what I want.
	That's what I'm paying you for to protect China, uh, to protect China in the halls of Congress or protect China in the White House.
	So it's it's really an enormous operation.
	And and one of the, you know, it and it's not just at the national at the federal level, it's at the state level too, right?
	States around the country, right, have been compromised, uh, have been compromised by by uh Chinese Communist Party operatives and by Chinese Communist Party money.
	Look, uh a story I tell in here, I look back at Chinagate, and uh a lot of people don't remember what China gets.
	We talk about the Clintons a lot, but a lot of people don't remember Chinagate.
	What Chinagate was is when um Chinese intelligence officers started pouring all sorts of money into the Democratic National Committee in the mid-90s.
	And people are like, oh, it was well, you know, people marginally tied to China, so it's weird and this and that, Indonesia, this.
	These were all people with serious relationships with Chinese intelligence, right?
	There was actually one Chinese intelligence uh officer, I think the head of military intelligence, who is also the uh also the the the head of the Navy, the head of the uh the uh the admiral of the PLA Navy was sending money in as well.
	What had happened to Bill Clinton was when he was governor, uh governor of Arkansas as an up-and-coming politician, the DNC saw uh Clinton the way the C CP did.
	They saw him as a promising political figure.
	And uh I document how uh how different figures, different Chinese allied businessmen went to Little Rock and cultivated Bill Clinton.
	So that's what happened.
	The Chinese uh the Chinese tried to, and I'm not saying that I'm not saying that Bill Clinton, who I think was a pretty okay president, turned on uh turned betrayed his country, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Chinese actively tried to compromise it for first in Arkansas, and then again it's the president.
	Well, this there's two things really important that you just mentioned here, okay.
	One of them is that the CCP operates at every scale of government and does precisely what you're describing.
	There's multiple uh examples of this.
	They cultivate all sorts of people, cultivate in the sense that they develop the relationships, they become friendly, and then you know, those things can be worked on further if someone happens to advance.
	But here's the other part that really struck me here, and I don't think this is talked about enough.
	You're basically telling me that the majority of the China lobbying money isn't actually Chinese money.
	And that's incredibly important to know.
	Do you have an estimate of what percentage would be uh, you know, money lobbying for communist China not being Chinese money?
	I mean, if we have we'd have to go and we'd have to look at every American company that has manufacturing in China, and and whatever whatever they're making, uh whatever they're making would have to go into what what that lobby is worth.
	It's it's trillions of dollars, right?
	Because all of those, all of those American businessmen, they want that stuff in China because they're making a lot of money.
	And so what's the argument?
	I mean, you you just gave a you just gave a version of it, how they put it like, oh, you don't understand, we're so interconnected and we're so intertwined, and we can't pull ourselves a part of that.
	You could, you you could, right?
	We hear all the arguments, oh, the China has the supply lines and the training and no one else does.
	It's like, right, it's gonna take some effort.
	That's true too.
	It's gonna take some effort for the United States to break free of this.
	But Donald Trump is the president who wants American companies to do that, and he's offering different ways to help, including very low corporate tax rates.
	So a lot of the excuses, that's part of China lobby messaging.
	We can't do it, it's too hard.
	We're too interwoven with uh, we're too interwoven with uh you know, with with with Chinese business elites.
	That's messaging.
	That's lobbying messaging.
	I mean, bottom line is you're saying these policies from the current Trump administration are basically designed to uh I guess activate the self-interest of the business leaders to uh bringing the money to America and pulling it out of China.
	Yeah, which is hard to do.
	I mean, you there's a lot of people, you know, you may have seen that you know, Jamie Dimon announced uh $10 billion worth of investment in important American industries.
	Um there are a lot of people who in the business world who are also starting to see that China's a real danger to the United States, right?
	This started to happen during COVID, that was a big deal during COVID, when people saw not only the the criminality of the regime that lied to us about the nature of the transmission uh and origins of COVID, but also how the supply lines got all jammed up.
	So people became concerned about that and they realize you know, TikTok, there's a whole bunch of different issues that have made American businessmen who are complacent, perhaps complacent before, that have put them out there on the front line of the saying, yeah, okay, I admit it.
	I fooled myself about this before, or or I didn't get it.
	Now I get it.
	We have to fight it.
	Here's what I'm gonna do.
	And Jamie Diamond really comes to the top of the list.
	Because for a long time he'd been someone who was uh someone who got along pretty easily with uh with Beijing.
	Uh explain to me how the visa system was abused.
	You catalog that incredibly well in the book.
	Yeah, well, this is terrible what happened, and Donald Trump didn't really he didn't really have an understanding.
	You know, a couple of months ago now, Donald Trump was talking like, oh no, I want 600,000 students, Chinese students here on visas.
	And I'm like, okay, that's definitely part of his negotiation because I know for a fact he doesn't.
	He was very worried to find out there were 300,000 uh Chinese graduate students on student visas during his first term.
	And um I mean, it what when the president was notified about where they are.
	Uh Ezra Cohen is one of the sources.
	He was an intelligence official in the first Trump administration, great guy, very insightful, very concerned about the threat of the Chinese Communist Party.
	And uh, you know, that that that's how they found out uh what that's how they found out that there were real dangers.
	I don't look a lot of these students are at are at not classified facilities, very sensitive facilities like U.S. nuclear labs.
	And as Ezra explains in the book, a lot of these things, it's kind of messy, you know.
	It's not like it's uh a perfect delineation all the time between classified uh work and sensitive work.
	So we've seen different PLA officials, different Chinese intelligence officials stealing intelligence.
	We've seen the different people that they or rather stealing sensitive material or classified material we saw.
	Um, you know, we we we've seen professors at Ivy League universities.
	And one of the big problems, Jan, is I'm sure your former broadcast partner, Cash Battle knew even before he took the job of FDI director, but with 300,000 Chinese graduate students in the country, and not to say that all of them necessarily want to spy for the PRC, but maybe put in compromising positions to do so.
	The FBI simply can't cover 300,000 people, right?
	So it's a disaster.
	So that's what I mean When uh Americans, the Americans who have not recommitted to their country need to recommit.
	And at the top of the list are university presidents.
	Well, we have to face reality.
	We have to have this eyes wide open approach.
	But the current reality, the current status quo that we're in, it was developed without that.
	And now we have to deal with the consequences.
	So how do we approach this?
	Well, look, Donald Trump being the first president to act on this.
	I think it's really I've talked about this a bit before.
	I mean, one of the things that he's worried about upsetting markets, all presidents are now.
	Remember, George W. Bush was worried about upsetting the market uh after 9-11 and as the global war on terror started.
	And I understand that it doesn't disrupt our economy and doesn't want to disrupt the country.
	But I think it would be advisable.
	I mean, Donald Trump communicates very well with Americans.
	That's his whole thing.
	It's not just uh truth social, previously Twitter, but look at his rallies.
	I mean, his rallies are fantastic, the way he gets down there and can talk to people, right?
	That's what people love about his rallies.
	They don't like him, you know, reading off the teleprompter.
	Though granted, uh, you know, reading reading off the reading off uh stories about uh or or policy that saved his life in Butler, Pennsylvania when he turtled turned his head to talk about his policy.
	But for the most part, people don't like talking, don't like hearing Donald Trump talk about policy.
	They like him talking to the American people, right, spontaneously, uh like a great entertainer.
	So I think that it would be great if the president could basically give people a fireside chat and say, here's what's happening.
	You you will this is what you elected me for.
	You elected me to bring jobs back to America.
	You elected me to keep our uh to keep our peace and advance our prosperity, and that's what I'm doing.
	But I have to tell you, as you're seeing, um things may get a little harder.
	And this tariff regime, this is an important instrument, and here's why I'm using it.
	And this is something, as I describe in the book.
	I, you know, quoting just great brilliant people, Clive Prestowitz, you know, Robert Leithyser, different people who know a lot about uh free trade and terrorists.
	Donald Trump might say, look, it's it's the terrorists have been a part of our system since Alexander Hamilton.
	I know they're gonna tell you I'm uh I'm a wild-eyed revolutionary, I'm not.
	This goes back to the founding of our country and tariffs are always about building our our prosperity as well as securing our peace.
	And that's what I'm doing.
	So that's one of the things I I I would love it if the president could help get people on board.
	Explain what's really going on, explain why this is so important.
	Because again, in 2016, this was one of the reasons uh Americans elected him.
	When Barack Obama said, uh, how are you going to return those jobs?
	Those jobs aren't coming back, what's your magic wand?
	Donald Trump did it.
	He started bringing jobs back.
	So that's why we voted for him, and I'd like to see him talk to people about that.
	Um with a common purpose.
	You know, one thing uh I really appreciated uh in your book is that you uh speak with some people who are uh, let's say dissidents who were acting uh for the benefit of human rights in China, um, an Uyghur activist as well as uh a felongong practitioner.
	Um, you know, I can't help it reminded me of uh interviewing someone years ago who had actually um worked in one of these factories, an American citizen, he worked in one of these uh slave labor campslash factories, and he was making Homer Simpson slippers for uh uh hack and sack New Jersey company, the kind where you kind of put your foot into the mouth of Homer uh uh uh sort of thing, and he was just kind of you know himself was shocked to discover this is happening.
	The slave labor uh was part of the uh dynamic here, or right.
	Uh I mean, in in the book, it's I I mean I find it it was a very moving interview with uh, you know, with a felon gong practitioner, and he's talking about how he was in in in prison in China, and he said the guards would say, Yeah, the Americans know all about it and they don't care.
	And no one could believe, and and and the person who spoke to me said no one could believe it really, because the Americans would never turn to blind eye to this kind of suffering or this kind of indignity, this kind of torture.
	But in fact, when this person left, um, when this Person came to the United States where he now lives, and he saw Christmas time that some of the Christmas lights that he'd indeed been forced to make in prison were for sale in American markets.
	And that to me, that when when he told me that, that just chilled me.
	And I hope other Americans reading the book are really chilled by it too, saying, gosh, that's just terrible.
	And especially, you know, I mean, Christmas time.
	And so that's what, you know, that that that that's where some of our some more Christmas cheer comes from this incredible suffering and torture.
	So yeah, it's it's uh that's one of the things that I wanted it.
	That's one of the things that I wanted to drive home here.
	It's not just about foreign policy, and it's not just about trade, but this is a communist regime, and they're disgusting and they're disgraceful.
	And um, you know, and obviously it's not an attack on Chinese people, but it is uh it is making a case saying the people who rise to the top of this regime have have climbed atop the corpses of of tens of millions of uh of fellow Chinese.
	It's just disgusting.
	And the fact that Americans have have strengthened, uh have empowered this regime, not only now to hurt to hurt their own citizens, but to hurt Americans.
	It's uh we're we're in a very we're in a very bad place, not just in terms of uh not just in terms of trade and national security, but in terms of morality as well.
	So you've been describing this fireside chat that you're hoping this the sort of which the president could have with the American people.
	Um I'm struck by this uh situation where the Chinese Communist Party really only has one leg of the Chinese economy left to stand on, and that's the export economy.
	That's why it's flooding whatever markets will take its goods, you know, at uh you know, fire sale prices, because that that that's where all the money uh that they're making is coming from, basically.
	So here we are.
	And so it made me think, and and especially this element now, this really hits home when you talk about um, you know, how US corporations are involved in basically supporting the Chinese system.
	It's really actually, you know, kind of American corporations that are driving those imports.
	Um there's a kind of too big to fail argument that strikes me, okay, because it this economy is very brittle, export-only economy.
	These tariffs are making it very difficult for them.
	You can I can imagine a situation where you know, basically people are telling the president, hey, you know, we really we don't want havoc, economic havoc in China.
	Uh we don't because you know, with all these things, you ultimately you have to pay the piper, but this is really if if this fails, you know, they go down, we go down with them.
	So we have to keep propping up the regime as as we have been all along.
	And I don't I don't see that we go down with them.
	I mean, but that's what I mean.
	I mean, the um we we are likely to feel some pain.
	I mean, we're a constitutional republic.
	We have a very resilient people, right?
	I guess you can say in some ways the people who the who constitute the elite of the Chinese Communist Party, they've I mean, just Xi's story itself is insane.
	His father was, you know, imprisoned, and and Xi just decided, oh, instead of turning against them, I'm just going to show them uh uh a communist superhero.
	But I mean, Americans are resilient.
	I I mean, we're we're we're a very hardy people, but our our resources need to be called upon.
	The president needs to, uh, or someone needs to summon our strength and say, look, it might it might get hard here.
	I don't know.
	But here's the end goal.
	We can't be tied to these, we can't be tied to this uh government anymore because they're crazy and they're vicious and they want to destroy us.
	They want us to live like slaves.
	Remember everyone, what COVID was like, you know, and this is a way that the president can kind of refer to lockdowns without necessarily talking about lockdowns, saying that was bad.
	That's how these people are all the time.
	Uh no freedom of speech, no freedom of anything.
	And we can't live like that, and we can't live as slaves to that regime.
	So we're gonna fight.
	And this is this is part of the cornerstone uh of my legacy.
	I'm your president, I love this country, and uh here's what we have to do.
	So, yeah, something like that.
	I would just like to see Americans understand what the what the what The purpose is what our fight is about.
	I think my book plays some role in that explaining the history, saying how bad that regime is and how bad our regime is to have become a matrix, to have basically folded into the same thing.
	Chinese Communist Party elites and U.S. elites.
	So I think I explained to people what's happened, what some of the uh uh uh astonishing scandals are, um, and how Donald Trump is the person who's pledged to reverse course and and and save this country.
	You know, no one wants to admit they were wrong, especially when that wrong, you know, caused caused people a lot of pain.
	But it just struck me as you're saying this, Lee, that this kind of does offer an opportunity.
	I mean, President Trump's policies do offer a kind of an opportunity for people that have been involved because they can say, hey, look, the the it's the it's the president's policies that are forcing me to get out, and you know, I I kind of have to, and and frankly, that'll be but that'll be for the good of everyone.
	No, right, that's great.
	It's like, hey, uh shareholders or whatever.
	We have to get out.
	The president's making life hard.
	Yeah, I know we'll be out in three years, but in the meantime, he's got a whole bunch of different mechanisms he can use to really hurt us.
	And plus, besides but besides, we're we're an American company, we're patriots.
	Our president is summoning us to come back home, and we're going back home.
	You know, and if you want to fire me, you should fire me.
	Uh yeah, I think I can it's you know, there's a lot of different arguments that you know that people can can make about it.
	Yeah, I think that Trump is supportive.
	And again, the the idea that he's urging people to come back home, we'll do we'll do this for you, we'll do that for you.
	Well, I'll I'll bring you into a joint session of uh of Congress.
	Hold up your hand and say, champion, champion, you're a champion.
	You know, so you know, and any and he has done a lot of that.
	Again, I I I'm I'm hopeful that the American people understand uh the stakes that are involved.
	And also look then that they also understand Trump's heroism here, too.
	But we talk about, you know, rightly, we talk about him getting shot in the face, shot in the head in Butler, Pennsylvania, and getting up.
	I mean, the way that I read Russia Gate now is Russian was partly an operation to keep Trump distracted from dealing with China.
	But look at all the different attacks he's taken just for going after China.
	Look at what he's up against.
	So it takes a it takes a lot of courage.
	It takes a lot of uh a lot of guts.
	Well, Lee, uh, your book, uh The China Matrix, I think required reading, uh, not just for people interested in uh the kind of the China question, but I I would say for everyone.
	Uh a final thought as we finish.
	Yes, I want to say one thing.
	The book that I the book that I wanted to write, like the plot against the president, I wanted to write a story, you know.
	Um I wanted to tell a story, and there is a story, and the story is very important, and it's how U.S. elites sold out their country, and the bad guy, Henry Kissinger stands for all the bad guys, and the people who want uh who want our country back, right?
	And there are millions of them.
	Donald Trump, he's the protagonist, he's the good guy.
	It's a story about uh it's a story about good and evil, because this is truly an evil regime.
	Jan, and you know, no one can speak to that more directly than you can.
	It's truly an evil regime.
	And the idea that American elites have tied us to these these beasts, these animals.
	And so the people who are trying to free us from them, like Donald Trump, like others on the left and on the right, deserve to be celebrated, cheered on, and and and deserve our support in their battle, because the battle is really for us and the future of our country.
	So that's what it is.
	It's fundamentally a story.
	Um it it and that's why in the subtitle it's the epic story.
	It's an epic.
	It's been going on for at least 50 years.
	Um and I want to thank you so much for letting me come on and speak about it today.
	Well, Lee Smith, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.
	Jan, it is always a huge pleasure to be speaking with you uh anytime, and you and I have spoken in many different places around the world, and I I always treasure it.
	Thank you, Lee.
	Thank you all for joining Lee Smith and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders.

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