Epoch Times - U.S. Strategy to End China’s Iron Grip, Sec. Doug Burgum

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Oct. 13, 2025 - Epoch Times

25:45

U.S. Strategy to End China’s Iron Grip, Sec. Doug Burgum

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	President Trump talks about drill baby drill.
	We've also got to mine baby mine.
	We've got to get back into this business.
	Joining us today is U.S. Secretary of the Interior Doug Bergham, who oversees nearly 500 million acres of public land and plays a key role in Trump's energy dominance agenda.
	If a rare earth mineral company became profitable and then all of a sudden, boom, the next year they're losing 200 million because China's dumping in the market, China has got a stranglehold on all of these essential minerals that are needed for our technology, for our defense.
	This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Yanya Kellek.
	Secretary Doug Bergham, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
	Jan, great to be with you.
	Thanks for having me on.
	So you recently discussed something that's very, very close to my heart or the thing that I'm really concerned about.
	It's this issue of critical minerals.
	You said China today controls 85 to 100 percent of all the refining of the 20 most important rare earth minerals.
	Okay, break that down for me, please, sir.
	Well, it's it's a shocking fact that we've allowed ourselves to get in a position where China has got a stranglehold on all of these essential minerals that are needed for our technology, for our defense, for automotive, essentially everything we need for energy security and national security and economic security.
	China's been at this over a period of decades, and they're not only in many cases controlling the mining around the world with their investments as part of their belt and road, but they bring all those materials back to China and do the processing there and then sell them to the world.
	And so, and again, like last spring when we were going tit for dat during some trade wars, if you will, you know, they withheld shipping a certain type of magnet to all Western countries, not just the United States.
	And we were facing within weeks of every auto plant in the world being shut down.
	I think this is a wake-up call for everybody in the West to say we've got to have secure apply chains.
	President Trump understands that.
	As part of the national energy emergency that he's created, we're using every authority we have to try to bring those supply chains back home.
	That includes us getting back in the mining game in this country.
	Absolutely important that we do it here, but also we've got to get into the refining of those minerals in rare earth minerals and critical minerals here in the United States.
	You know, you've got a few initiatives here.
	You know, you're doing this list of critical minerals.
	And actually, explain to me briefly why it's important to just have this list in the first place be codified.
	Well, it's important because we want to go beyond the periodic table, but start right there.
	If you want to take what your lead-in question was, take the periodic table and then color it red if 100% of the refining for the free world is done in China on those minerals.
	And that should be the wake-up call for everybody.
	But when we create the list as part of a federal procedure, that gives it a different designation.
	We've got the opportunity to have more authorities in terms of the work that we do to make those investments, whether it's the Defense Production Act, whether it's under the national security emergency that we're under.
	But this is, again, and we're taking extraordinary steps since this time last spring.
	The United States is now, the Department of War has made actual equity investments in multiple mineral companies because if it was the capital markets had stopped working successfully for private companies in the United States, if a rare earth mineral company became profitable, China would dump that particular mineral onto the market, depressing prices, and essentially drive these companies out of business.
	In the case of Mountain Pass, which was the first deal that was done with the Department of War earlier this summer, when these guys had made a couple hundred million dollars, they were getting ready to go to an IPO.
	They had plenty of access to capital markets, commercial loans, bonds, IPO.
	And then all of a sudden, boom, the next year they're losing 200 million because China's dumping in the market.
	They got no access to capital and they're at the brink of shutting down.
	And this is just a playbook that China's used to use their avoid hot market forces and just strategically as a country subsidize certain industries to gain control.
	Right.
	I mean, what we call unrestricted warfare, just one of the methods.
	But so, so, so, let's discuss that.
	Like, how do we actually defend against that meaningfully?
	Because, you know, we've kind of known about these vulnerabilities for a while.
	I mean, whether it's, you know, the generic drug precursors, which are somewhere in those, you know, high 80 percentages and so forth, or these critical rare earth minerals.
	How is it that you can kind of speed that process now?
	Well, part of it is this, again, the extraordinary step.
	And having spent almost my entire life in the private sector, I was one like, oh, the government should never be an equity participant in a company.
	We're not picking winners and losers.
	But in this case, where we can come in, take a minority position, send a signal to the market that there's going to be a partnership here where they can receive and thrive in a capital market.
	And then the combination of the tariffs.
	When we put the tariffs up, again, that creates a measure of protection for U.S. companies to be able for us to restart this mining industry.
	I would just tell you, one indication of how bad it's come, this country, and again, part of the climate ideology, climate extremism that said somehow that mining was a bad thing, not just energy production, but mining, that we should stop mining in America.
	We should export mining to third world countries.
	We graduated over 36,000 lawyers last year in the United States.
	We graduated about 300 people with mining and metallurgical degrees.
	When President Trump talks about drill, baby, drill, we've also got a mine, baby, mine.
	We've got to get back into this business and we've got to help people understand this is a high-tech, sophisticated industry, mining today.
	The amount of technology that goes into both identifying and the resource, extracting that resource and refining that resource, it's an exciting industry.
	And the U.S. innovation, not regulation, is what's always been the source of American greatness.
	And we've effectively regulated this entire industry out of existence in the U.S. That's turning around.
	Just yesterday, President Trump in the Oval Office using his presidential powers to agree with an appeal from the state of Alaska.
	The Biden administration shut down this 211-mile-long Ambler Road that leads into one of the richest mining districts in the world.
	Biden shut that down.
	Trump had approved it.
	Biden shut it down.
	This time on the appeal, it's an irrevocable appeal.
	The presidential power gets to say this road's going to happen.
	He said it yesterday.
	There's over 1,700 mining claims along Ambler Road in Alaska.
	That's got to have lifted the economic value of every single one of those mining claims because for the first time in history, there's going to be infrastructure that will allow people to get in to mine those minerals and also to be able to bring them back out.
	Mr. Secretary, to your point about understanding what actually America has, you instructed a while back now the U.S. Geologic Service to unleash America's balance sheet to understand what's in these in the public land, the subsurface mineral rights in the offshore areas.
	How is that coming now?
	Well, we're making progress, but it's a big lift and it's going to take a whole of government approach.
	But I think what you understand, every time there's a presidential election, every American gets educated on how much debt America has.
	Oh, we've got $36 trillion of debt, and then they'll divide it by household and say each person owes this much money.
	Well, we talk about that.
	Why don't we talk about what each American owns in terms of assets?
	Because the Biden administration was systematically restricting access to the balance sheet of America.
	The Department of Interior alone, which I have the honor of leading, controls over 500 million acres of surface land, 700 million acres of subsurface minerals, 2.5 billion of offshore resources across from everything from the U.S. Virgin Islands to American Samoa, all those U.S. territories and their offshore waters are also part of U.S.'s balance sheet.
	And then you throw in the U.S. Forest Service in the Department of Agriculture, and you add in another couple hundred million acres of surface land.
	So if Interior was a standalone company, it would have the largest balance sheet in the world.
	It would also have among the large balance sheet, it would have the worst returns in the world because we've restricted access to it.
	We tried to shut down the timber industry.
	Not we, but the Biden administration, Biden administration, putting the clamps on timber production, on grazing, on mineral production on these public lands.
	When Theodore Roosevelt put away these hundreds of millions of acres, he specifically said that this was for the benefit and the enjoyment of the American public.
	Yes, for recreation, but also the benefit to access all of these minerals.
	So codifying that balance sheet has been something that we're working on across government.
	But just the Gulf of America offshore, $28 trillion, $28 trillion in oil and gas resources that are there.
	Coal resources, close to $10 trillion of coal resources on public lands.
	And again, some of this stuff like the coal, the Biden administration was basically not leasing any coal.
	They're saying we're going to just wipe $10 trillion off the U.S. balance sheet.
	They'd shut down millions and millions of acres for any kind of offshore activity in the Gulf of America.
	That also wiped trillions of dollars off the balance sheet.
	And when they did that, no one in the news could ever write a story about the financial impact.
	There'd be a story about, oh, they're saving XYZ territory or land or this or that.
	They're saving the planet.
	But there was never a financial number attached to it.
	And there's ways to save the planet.
	One way to save the planet is do all the energy and mining in the U.S. because we do it cleaner, better, safer, and smarter than anywhere.
	If you want to save the planet, you don't shut off the ability to develop in the country that actually has got the track record of caring the most, innovating the most, and doing the safest and the most environmentally sound work of any country in the world.
	The U.S. has always led in that area.
	Right.
	So, I mean, unleashing energy production is, of course, I know you're collaborating with the Department of Energy in this whole realm.
	I understand that the energy companies, you know, oil and so forth, have kind of rejigged around these kind of policies in the previous administration.
	Are they shifting back?
	It takes some time to actually, I guess, prepare to exploit these resources.
	How is that coming?
	Is that something we can see in the near term, that growth, or is it something that's coming further out?
	Well, I think the place we're really seeing it is in LNG exports.
	One of the things that, of course, with under President Trump, you know, energy dominance is really about energy abundance.
	It's nothing short of two words: peace and prosperity, prosperity at home, because energy, whether it's the car you drive, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, there's an energy component to all of those.
	If we can get energy prices down and through a combination of opening up the supply, reducing the permitting times, cutting the red tape that burdens these industries, if we can do that, we can lower the cost of energy.
	But then, in terms of peace abroad, President Trump already solving seven global conflicts in eight months.
	No one's ever been the peace president like he is.
	He's got two more to go.
	And which two more do we have?
	We got Russia and Iran.
	Where are both of them getting their revenues from?
	They're getting them from energy sales.
	So, as President Trump says, we want to sell energy to our friends and allies so they don't have to buy it from our adversaries.
	Because if you're buying Iranian oil like China is, you're funding 24 terrorist groups.
	If you're buying, if you're a European country buying Russian oil or gas, you're funding the war that you're actually engaged in.
	I mean, we have countries that are buying Russian oil and gas and providing support to Ukraine.
	They're funding two sides of a war.
	It makes no sense.
	So, energy diplomacy is one of the ways that President Trump has been able to bring peace around the world.
	And he's determined to resolve the last two big ones that are out there.
	But the energy and energy diplomacy is a key part of it.
	Right.
	So, let's jump back to this national security dimension because, really, all of these things, again, whether it's critical rights or PPEs, they threatened to withhold PPEs back in the day on the manufacturing side, whether it's medical precursors, whether it's the ability to not be dependent outside on energy, it all ultimately comes down.
	This is the thing that keeps me up at night: it feels to me like we have a lot of exposure on the national security side because of these things not being having been taken care of.
	I mean, and this isn't just over one, this is over multiple administrations over a long time, to be fair.
	Yeah, yes.
	Yeah, well, we do have exposure, and again, we saw that this last spring, especially when China was withholding the magnets.
	And then China said, Oh, well, we'll start shipping again.
	You just have to fill out this export form.
	Well, the export form was requiring everybody from automakers to tech companies to defense companies to say exactly how they use the magnet, what product it goes into, what are the dimensions.
	You know, is it for commercial or for military use?
	It was essentially a giant intelligence gathering capability and episode on their part, you know, under the guise of it's just an export form.
	And they were doing that to countries around the world.
	And again, we just can't have this kind of dependence, and that's why, again, under the Trump administration, we are in an energy emergency.
	Part of that energy emergency is to make sure we've got enough electricity to win the AI arms race against China.
	It's also that we've got the critical minerals and the refining those critical minerals so we're not put in a stranglehold by China.
	And, you know, in my view, China played their card too early.
	They had a card.
	They played it at a time when we were not involved in any kind of kinetic.
	We're in a Cold War, essentially, a trade war.
	We're certainly in a cyber war every day because of their attempts to steal our IP all the time.
	But amongst all the wars we are, we're not in a kinetic war, but they played a trade, a pretty big trade war car.
	They played it early, and that woke up America, certainly woke up this administration.
	We're determined as quickly as possible to reduce and eliminate any critical mineral supply chain dependence we have on China.
	Well, so what do you make of this, all this chatter about the president making some sort of massive trade deal, you know, for with some sort of national security restriction concessions then?
	Well, we certainly hope that there won't be any national security concessions.
	But, you know, China, for the choke points that they have, they've also got a bunch of issues, whether it's the, you know, the overblown stock market, whether it's the real estate overhang, whether it's the demographics that they have of an aging population that is and a slowing economic growth, that they've got a lot of debt in their economy.
	The fact that they're the most energy-dependent country in the world, they import 11.5 million barrels of oil a day, a day into that country, just to keep the lights on and keep it going.
	So in that sense, they've got a lot of dependencies going.
	And so they have energy security.
	They've got economic security problems as well.
	And I think right now, the tariffs are really having an impact on China because their whole model was built around building more supply than they needed domestically, dumping it on the world market to try to create employment at home.
	And if the U.S. shuts its doors and can replace those goods, that takes away the largest market in the world.
	And that can create a lot of havoc economically back home for China.
	I think they're starting to realize that.
	I think they're going to come to the table with some concessions on their half.
	But again, it's a dangerous situation that we're in.
	Mr. Secretary, you raise a very good point here.
	The Chinese economy really only has one leg left, which is the export.
	And that's something we have to pay close attention to.
	And by the way, thank you very much for joining me here during this shutdown.
	I understand a lot of your department actually isn't functioning.
	Could you just tell us what's the situation right now and what are the challenges?
	Well, John, I'm a private sector guy, so this whole thing is just bizarre land to me that we would actually have a mechanism where either party could allow the federal government to shut down.
	I mean, think if you're running a small hardware store, you know, on Main Street, USA, and then all of a sudden one day you just tell your employees, hey, we're shutting down.
	We don't know when we're going to open up again, but you guys just go on furlough and stick around.
	And then your customers come and knock on the door or they come online and your website's down and the doors are shut and they're like, well, we're not sure when we're opening again.
	We're waiting for some politicians to decide when they've extracted enough benefit from this shutdown to somehow think.
	I mean, this is weird.
	If the Democrats want to pass legislation, they can introduce the legislation while the government's running and then battle it out in Congress and see if they can pass legislation.
	There's nothing good in this for the American people right now because I'm sitting in a building that should hold about 4,000 people and for the most part no one's here except a bunch of President Trump's appointees that are in the building and they're also working without getting paid.
	And so trying to keep the lights on and keep things moving in this country makes no sense whatsoever.
	Again, if there was some large political thing at state, I understand why people would negotiate.
	But we can have a negotiation about health care in America while the government's functioning.
	You don't have to shut it down to have that thing.
	So again, as a private sector guy, it makes no sense.
	We've wasted so much time shutting down.
	Then we're going to spend a bunch of time trying to gear up and start up.
	And meanwhile, is China shutting down this week?
	I don't think so.
	China's not taking a week off over some internal thing.
	And so, again, the bigger picture here is that U.S., we hurt ourselves in world competition when we take these narrow, short-sighted, inside-the-beltway DC views of the world because the government does perform functions.
	At Interior, we're finding funding sources.
	We're not allowed to spend appropriated dollars, but we're trying to keep permitting open, keeping the national parks open, trying to keep everything going.
	So, all the things that you and I have talked about working on, Jan, we're not slowing down on any of that.
	But there's only a period of time because we can only borrow money from so many other unappropriated buckets to keep things moving and keep the doors open.
	So, hopefully, this gets resolved soon and we can get some common sense back into it.
	The House of Representatives has already passed a continuing resolution.
	So, if the Senate voted to keep the government open, it's operating under the same budget we were operating under, what, you know, a week ago.
	I think we'd be okay, and then we let them duke it out in Congress.
	But don't stop the wheels of American economy and the important role that we can play in keeping that going in the Trump direction.
	President Trump's got this economy turning around.
	This is not helping.
	Secretary Bergam, final thought as we finish?
	Well, I would just say, again, I'm very optimistic about the future.
	President Trump's leadership, whether it's ending wars at home, help re-shoring manufacturing back, his focus on us building up the electrical power in this country that we need to win the AI arms race.
	Under President Biden, we were shutting down baseload and highly subsidizing forms of electricity that wind and solar that are intermittent and expensive.
	And on the solar side, most of those solar panels were coming from China.
	It was discovered that there was kill switches being put in some of these, so the solar panels could be just as big a problem as Huawei was during Trump 1.
	Again, if we want to have solar in this country, it better be from U.S. manufacturers and in ways where we can be secure about what the supply chain is.
	But meanwhile, President Trump just bringing common sense, we've got to get back in that.
	China added 93 gigawatts of coal last year.
	We need electricity.
	A kilowatt hour of electricity right now is worth more than it ever has been in history because you could turn electricity directly into intelligence in what I call an AI factory.
	They're not really data centers.
	Data centers is one company and their customers.
	It's a closed loop.
	AI is a general purpose technology, a GPT.
	It can be used by any industry, cure cancer, change education, transform the number of lawyers we need in America.
	There's all kinds of benefits that can come from having this kind of advanced intelligence going around.
	But we need power.
	We used to say that power is knowledge, or knowledge is power, is what we used to say.
	Knowledge is power.
	That was a saying in almost every culture and every language, but it's flipped around.
	Now power creates knowledge, and we need more electricity to make it happen.
	President Trump understands that.
	Whether it's on the nuclear energy side with the four executive orders that he put in earlier this year, which have helped bring a flood of new venture capital back into the nuclear business, or whether it is the or whether it's all of the innovation that's occurring on in other forums, whether it's not small modular nuclear, but geothermal, there's a bunch of exciting things happening.
	Oil and gas continues to get more efficient and it's just essential to our economy.
	So it's exciting to see what's happening.
	And again, Eastern or Western Europe can thank America.
	Western Europe has benefited so greatly from the LNG exports coming out of the United States.
	Our energy abundance has literally saved the EU during this time of conflict with Russia.
	And kudos to all those patriots that work across America's energy industries because the work that they're doing to have safe, reliable, secure, affordable energy benefits every American, but it's certainly playing big on the world stage.
	Well, one final quick thought: is it possible that through this AI revolution and incredible growth and hunger for power, hunger for energy, the narrative, could perhaps the narrative on energy have been shifted?
	That's the final thought I'd like to leave us with.
	Do you think that could be happening?
	I mean, across the board?
	Well, absolutely.
	And I'll tell you, it started in Silicon Valley because Silicon Valley made a 180-degree flip, and everybody that understood the AI revolution ended up showing up as a President Trump supporter.
	People said that wouldn't have been possible two years ago because of the direction where Silicon Valley was focused on all kinds of issues that were not related to national security, national defense, economic prosperity, America's future.
	And then they woke up one day and said, wow, there's not going to be enough electricity in America for us to power AI.
	There's not going to be enough electricity to power the market caps of our companies.
	We better get with a team that actually understands that, get with a team that is committed to actually producing power to win the AI arms race.
	And you saw virtually every major player in Silicon Valley came over.
	They came over.
	Their awakening was all around energy and energy security.
	And again, it takes courage and curiosity and humility to switch your positions and switch the direction of where they're going.
	But a credit to all those tech leaders that stood up and showed up and were standing by President Trump at the inauguration because they're part of the team that's going to help us win the AI arms race against China.
	Well, Secretary Doug Bergham, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.
	Thank you, Jan.
	Thank you all for joining Secretary Doug Bergham and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders.

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