Epoch Times - How Race-Based Policies Are Harming South Africa: Ernst Roets

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Sept. 25, 2025 - Epoch Times

23:10

How Race-Based Policies Are Harming South Africa: Ernst Roets

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	South Africa moved from one race-based system to another race-based system.
	We need to move away from race-based systems.
	Ernst Roots is the founder and executive director of Lex Libertas, an organization that advocates for constitutional reform and decentralization in South Africa.
	The deeper-rooted problem is that the political system is not sustainable.
	The solution, we would say, is to rethink the political system in South Africa.
	Roots argues that South Africa, with its growing political, social, and economic crises, is on the verge of becoming a failed state.
	Any country that is antagonistic towards the West is regarded as a friend of the South African government.
	The extent to which China is strengthening its grip on the African continent, but also especially in South Africa, China is playing the long game.
	This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Janja Kellek.
	Ernst Roots, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
	Thank you very much.
	I'm very happy to be here.
	Thank you for speaking with me.
	So what's happening in South Africa?
	Well, there's a lot happening in South Africa.
	I would say the most important thing to be said about South Africa is that it's failing.
	And it's failing on a variety of levels.
	And we've just published a report on this, which is why I'm here in Washington speaking to you.
	But I would say, and according to our report as well, the failure is evident in three areas.
	The one is the very disastrous policy framework that we have in South Africa, including a bunch of laws and legislation aimed at race-based redistribution of property and then proclaiming that that would lead to prosperity.
	So it's socialism and saying that you will become wealthy and affluent as a result of these policies.
	So a destructive policy framework is the first.
	The second is just general state failure.
	It's not able to keep people safe.
	We have the murder rate in South Africa is 45 per 100,000 per year.
	The global average is 6.
	In America, I think it's 4 or 5 per 100,000.
	More than 27,000 murders every year in South Africa.
	It's an extremely violent country.
	But also, when we talk about government failing, the government isn't able to fulfill its most basic responsibilities, such as providing electricity or water.
	40% of water in South Africa is lost due to leaks.
	46% of water is contaminated.
	And two-thirds of water treatment facilities in South Africa are on the verge of breakdown.
	So it's very serious, the extent of state failure.
	And then the third is the persecution of minorities.
	And we see that with this vast network of more than 140 race laws in South Africa aimed at targeting the white minority in particular, also the Afrikaners, as a sort of an ethnic community in South Africa.
	We also see this with the threats to property rights, the threats by the government, not just threats, they're actually following up on these threats to confiscate private property, especially belonging to white people and to farmers, and redistribute this.
	Again, with the promise that that would lead to prosperity.
	And we also see the persecution in terms of the hate speech.
	And it's not just, when we say hate speech, it's not just hate speech, it's actual incitement of violence against minorities with chants such as kill the boer, kill the farmer, which isn't just metaphorical because the farmers are actually being attacked and killed while these politicians chant this.
	And not only are they chanting this, but they are protected by the justice system.
	So with that said, our argument is that these things I've mentioned are actually symptoms of a deeper-rooted problem.
	The deeper-rooted problem is that the political system is not sustainable.
	And the solution, we would say, is to rethink the political system in South Africa.
	When it comes to minorities being targeted, you're not just talking about whites.
	Yeah, so firstly, South Africa is very big.
	In terms of size, comparison, you can pretty much compare South Africa to Western Europe.
	If you take out Spain and England, the rest is more or less the size of South Africa.
	It's twice the size of Texas.
	But it's one of the most ethnically diverse regions in the world, with the constitution recognizing 12 official languages.
	One of the 12 is sign language, but the others are all different cultural communities, different nations.
	So the appropriate way to think about South Africa is not simply to think of it as a country with a nation, but as a region.
	So North Africa is a region with several countries.
	East Africa is a region with several countries, West Africa, Central Africa, but then you have South Africa.
	It's just one country, one big country, which ironically became this big country during this process of colonization after the Anglo-Boer War.
	Before that, it was a variety of Boer republics, British colonies, African kingdoms, and so forth.
	So it's very big.
	It's exceptionally diverse, not just in terms of cultures, but also different civilizations living in South Africa.
	So we have Asian communities, we have Jewish community, we have, you could say, Westerners, the Afrikaner people are Westerners.
	We have a white Anglo community in South Africa that are also Western, Westerners in terms of our sort of outlook on life.
	And then we have a wide network of African nations living, the Zulus that calls us the Suthus, the Vendas, the Tsongas, and so forth.
	So that's important to understand.
	And unfortunately, with regard to South Africa, this narrative became established that it's simply a matter of black and white.
	And the apartheid government is partly to blame for this, even though the apartheid arguments, the apartheid argument was that there should be homelands for the different nations.
	But the current government and the ANC especially, because it's incentivized for them, the ANC is the ruling party in South Africa.
	It's incentivized for them to simply say it's just a country of white people and black people, because then they could get the black communities and nations to sort of unite under the banner of being black and target white people under the banner of being white.
	But the truth of the matter is that it's much more nuanced than that.
	I remember celebrating the end of apartheid.
	That itself was a highly race-based system.
	Yes, yes.
	And I mean, because a couple of times you offered some nuance to what apartheid was, and I just want to kind of get you to comment on that.
	There is this false dichotomy in South Africa that there's only two political options.
	There's apartheid and there's the current political system.
	And if you criticize what's happening in South Africa now, that by definition means you want to return to the apartheid system, which of course is ludicrous because there are many political systems to choose from.
	And the apartheid system was just a disaster in many ways.
	Our concern is that there is this narrative in South Africa at the moment that you can say absolutely anything you want that is derogatory towards white people.
	It doesn't matter if it's true or not.
	So South Africa moved from one race-based system to another race-based system.
	And the point is that we need to move away from race-based systems.
	And that doesn't mean pretending that there are no differences between people.
	So recognizing culture is a good thing.
	And recognizing that people have an affinity for protection of their culture, preserving their languages and so forth, that's good.
	But simply saying that we need to categorize people as white people and black people is destructive for a variety of reasons.
	And it hasn't worked.
	The English tried that in South Africa, it failed.
	The Afrikaners tried that.
	In South Africa, it failed.
	And now the ANC is trying that and it failed again.
	And so we need to move away from that.
	The thing that a lot of the people in our audience will be most familiar with in terms of the news cycle in South Africa is these discussions of the farm murders and this increased murder rate.
	And can you just briefly explain the reality of that?
	Yeah, so the farm murders is a is a very serious problem in South Africa.
	The response to that is to say, well, there are many problems in South Africa, so why are you pointing to this one?
	But the fact of the matter is that it's a very unique problem.
	And it's a problem that could only be prevented or combated by a unique counter-strategy.
	And there are a few things that make the farm murders unique.
	One is the extreme frequency at which it's happening.
	Just the sheer numbers, thousands of people having been murdered on farms, many of them tortured.
	In many of those cases, nothing is stolen.
	They just come in, they torture the farmers for several hours and then they leave.
	They would steal a cell phone and a car, but they steal the cell phone so that people can't call the police.
	And then they would leave the car by the wayside when they leave.
	So the numbers, just the numbers is very alarming.
	The second is the brutality, the high levels of torture that we see.
	And it's any torture method you can imagine has been employed in these farm attacks.
	And it's the most grotesque tortures you could think of in many of these cases.
	And like I said, oftentimes for hours.
	The third is the unique economic impact, because farmers are skilled people, they are employers, they provide food for the country.
	So it would have disastrous consequences for the nation at large.
	And it already has.
	The fourth is just the fact that farmers live in unique circumstances.
	They live far away from police stations, far away from their neighbors.
	Oftentimes it's dirt roads.
	Oftentimes it's bad cell phone signal.
	So that alone says that you need a unique counter strategy to fix this, even though the South African government doesn't want to recognize this.
	But then on top of this, what makes the farm murders exceptionally unique is that it's a very serious crime phenomenon that is also actively encouraged by politicians.
	So we have a problem in South Africa with violence against women and children.
	But you would never hear politicians say, we need to go out and beat women.
	And we need to go and, you know, if you see a child, you should kick the child or something.
	You know, we have a serious problem in terms of poaching.
	You don't hear politicians encouraging poaching.
	We have a serious problem in terms of copper cable theft.
	You don't hear politicians encouraging that.
	But when it comes to farm murders, we continuously hear politicians and very senior politicians actively chanting about killing the farmers and so forth.
	And so this has become a very, it has become a metaphor for the crisis in South Africa.
	And I think it's important to take note of.
	Ernst, we're going to take a quick break and folks, we're going to be right back.
	And we're back with Ernst Roots, founder of Lex Libertas in South Africa.
	You're with Lex Libertas.
	I'm going to get you to tell me what that is.
	But before that, you're with a group called AfriForum.
	Yes.
	And just explain to me the work you did there.
	So when I was at university, I founded AfriForum Youth.
	AfriForum is a, that's where I became involved.
	Let me just say that.
	Sort of as a volunteer through the youth movement and I eventually became an employee.
	AfriForum is a civil rights organization in South Africa, especially aimed at ensuring that there's a future for the Afrikaner community in South Africa.
	It also works on especially court cases, litigation in South Africa.
	For example, getting communities organized in terms of public safety initiatives and so forth.
	And it's an incredibly important organization.
	It still is.
	I was involved there for quite some time.
	I'm still a member of AfriForum, although I'm not an employee anymore.
	I started this new initiative, which is a combination of a think tank and an advocacy group.
	And it's a much more narrow focus.
	And the focus is to say that the political system in South Africa is not sustainable and we need to work towards a more viable political system.
	So you could say my focus now is very much on a macro-political solution as opposed to the very important work that other institutions in South Africa are doing with regard to particular policy issues and getting people to look after their own safety on a more practical level.
	Fascinating.
	And in the past, you also worked on, you know, looking at Chinese Communist Party, Chinese encroachment into Africa and South Africa.
	Yes, that is a very important thing.
	I think also from an American perspective, just this Belt and Road initiative of China.
	China is playing the long game when it's coming to Africa.
	And the extent to which China is strengthening its grip on the African continent, but also especially in South Africa, I'm not sure how noble or genuine their relationship with these African nations are.
	It seems to be much more opportunistic than real friendship.
	But I think from the African perspective, they are very open to this.
	There was this scandal in the African Union headquarters a few years ago, which was built largely by China.
	And it came out that early in the mornings, after midnight, all the information was downloaded from the databases and it was sent to a server in Shanghai, I believe.
	And this was revealed, and everyone was angry about this, but nothing really happened after that, because I think they were just so grateful for the financial support from China.
	And it's also happening with South Africa.
	And I think part of the reason is the access to mineral resources.
	And it is very clear from what is happening that China is very interested in that, very interested in Africa's mineral resources.
	And what is particularly alarming, and I think also important from a Western and American perspective, is that many of these leaders in African countries, especially in South Africa, they see China as a sort of a net that would help them, that would catch them if everything comes crashing down.
	Some of them publicly say this.
	They would say, well, if the economy crashes, China will come in.
	China will pick up the bill.
	And they sort of gloat about that.
	But that would lead to a significant international strengthening of China from a geopolitical perspective, which is certainly not in the interest of the West.
	Well, you know, something that the Chinese communist regime employs is what you call debt trap diplomacy.
	You hear that term very often, right?
	And so that's happened in many, a number of African countries where it's almost, you know, you kind of set up in a place where you know it's going to fail because you can see how it's structurally working.
	And then you have a hook where basically you have a level of control of the nature that you just described where there's this outrageous security breach, but it doesn't seem to have that much of an impact because of the huge level of influence and the huge level of money that's coming in.
	So in South Africa, it's China, but it's also Iran to a large extent.
	And Middle Eastern countries, you could put it differently.
	You could say it's any country that is antagonistic towards the West is regarded as a friend of the South African government.
	And even though the South African government is a small player in the international arena, it tries very hard to punch above its weight.
	And it tries very hard to position itself as a leading factor or a leading role player in what you might describe as a sort of a radical anti-Western alliance, which is part of the reason why it took on this genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice.
	Why, and in this report we're publishing this week, we also reference the relationship between the South African government and Hamas, for example.
	But groups all over the world, anyone who's into Cuba and many others, Zimbabwe, many of these African countries, any country that is openly against the West, you would find that they are supported by the South African government and they would form this block at the United Nations and international forums, including BRICS and many of these international forums.
	Iran's power has been significantly degraded.
	And so are you seeing an impact of that?
	Or what do you believe the impact of that would be because of this, you know, I guess, significant influence it's had?
	We haven't seen much of an impact in South Africa yet, although I'm sure things like oil prices and all of that will have that side of the impact.
	But the impact that we are seeing more, or the activities that we see more, is the involvement of South Africa through the BRICS alliance, where, for example, the president recently at this BRICS summit openly lashed out them against the American government and so forth because they see this alliance as some form of a defense mechanism or protection.
	It provides them protection to be much more open about their antagonism because they find themselves among friends who agree with them.
	And the problem, of course, is, as I mentioned, it's a big country, it's very diverse, and there are a lot of people who live in South Africa, millions of people in South Africa, who are culturally Western, who are very pro-America, who are very pro-the West, who descend from Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem, and so forth.
	But we live in a country with a government that is very aggressively anti-Western.
	And we see that in terms of their foreign policy, but we also see that in terms of domestic policy and the extent to which they are targeting people based on their Western identity.
	You know, you see the problem as being systemic.
	Yes.
	Not necessarily a specific manifestation of the leaders and power or the particular political party, but something deeper.
	Yep.
	So firstly, I mentioned this earlier, there's a vast network of destructive laws and policies in South Africa.
	The race laws, the threats to property rights, what they call the Expropriation Act.
	And I mean, we can go down the list.
	There's just so many examples.
	But it's easy to make the mistake to think that we should change some of these policies and that would provide a solution to South Africa.
	Or we should just get someone else to be the president of South Africa and then the country would be fixed.
	Or we should vote in one of the opposition parties and then all of this would be over.
	When if you think about it for just a moment, you would recognize that these problems would still be there because it's a structural problem.
	And the structural problem could be summarized by saying that it's a very big country, it's a very diverse country, but it has an extremely centralized political system.
	A political system that is, some people call it an oligarchy, that is very disconnected from realities on ground level.
	It's an ideological experiment.
	It's an experiment that says that we need to get all these nations living in South Africa to abandon their what used to be their national identities or cultural identities and take up this new identity.
	And then we would reach some form of utopia.
	And they literally say we would reach the Garden of Eden and we would reach the ultimate paradise, those are the words of the president.
	Reading your Report, I was kind of, I actually wasn't sure, right, whether you were saying, you know, it needs to be more decentralized and have kind of actual, you know, individual countries develop out of this.
	And this is obviously, you know, a major challenge to existing sovereignty.
	Yes.
	Or whether you were saying it should be more of a federalist system, you know, basically like what America ultimately ended up doing with giving all sorts of concessions to the different founding states and even currently, right, with sort of minimizing the powers of the federal to the things that are just critical at the place.
	Subsidiarity, right?
	I guess this original idea was this principle of subsidiarity.
	So there's a saying among some Afrikaners that we want a future within South Africa if possible, outside South Africa if needs be.
	And that means not necessarily leaving the country, but in a completely different, difficult, different, in a completely different political system altogether.
	And so what the report does and what we do at Lex Libertas is to have clarity and provide clarity in terms of where we are at the moment, the crisis in South Africa, understanding it for what it is.
	And that's the point about the symptoms and the actual root problem, and in terms of where we need to go.
	And we can get there by different paths.
	So where we need to go is to have higher levels of self-governance and a decentralized political system.
	That could take different forms.
	One way is simply to say that the policy framework in South Africa needs to change to get rid of the race laws and so forth.
	And if these things weren't there, there would be much higher levels of freedom.
	The question is if that's sustainable, considering that the political system is not quite connected to realities in South Africa.
	But there are different ways in which you could promote, you could decentralize the system, and there are different ways in which you could promote self-governance.
	And that could include federalism, a system more comparable to what the US has or the Swiss canton system.
	It could include territorial autonomy, something comparable to what the Tyroleans have in Italy, where they have an autonomous province.
	Even though they are part of Italy, they have a significant degree of a say in terms of how their province is governed.
	Or Quebec in my country.
	Yeah, Quebec is also an example.
	Yes, yes.
	It could also be cultural autonomy, which says that even though the cultural communities might be spread out over the country, they don't just live in one spot.
	These cultural communities should have a say over their own cultural affairs, like what is taught in their schools and so forth, not just be instructed by the national government, what they should be taught and so forth.
	And then, of course, there's the secession.
	Secession is just to say that we need to take the Yugoslavia route and say that maybe we should just give the people living in this country their own states.
	And so different avenues could be taken.
	And we need to explore these different avenues seriously.
	But I think that what's important for now is to recognize that it's not working.
	It needs to change.
	And we need to promote self-governance and we need to decentralize the system.
	Well, Ernst Roots, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.
	Thank you very much.
	It's a pleasure to be here.
	Thank you for speaking with me.
	Thank you all for joining Ernst Roots and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders.

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