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March 24, 2025 - Epoch Times
22:54
You Can Make $150,000 Per Year Welding With an $8,000 Certificate: Mike Rowe
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Every year, for the last decade or so, for every five tradesmen who retire, two replaced.
If the president succeeds in truly reinvigorating American manufacturing, he's going to run into not just a skill gap, but a will gap.
If we don't have a workforce who is disabused...
Of the stigmas and the stereotypes and the myths and the misperceptions that have kept millions of kids from giving these jobs an honest look, you're going to wind up in a pretty nasty feedback loop.
Mike Rowe is the Emmy Award-winning TV host of the Dirty Jobs series and CEO of the Mike Rowe Works Foundation, which awards millions in work ethic scholarships for young people to learn a skilled trade.
We really have to understand what we did to incite this.
We took shop class out of high school.
What we did was we removed those jobs from site for everybody.
This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jan Jekielek.
Mike Rowe, such a pleasure to have you back on American Thought Leaders.
It's great to see you again.
Thanks. We're kind of in an unusual time.
I think American manufacturing is on...
The road back, but just at the very beginning of that road.
Yeah. Tell me your thoughts on this.
Well, I'm optimistic on the one hand, but I'm a little troubled on the other.
I think maybe the best way to sum it up is with a series of phone calls that my foundation gets every week now.
Most recently, I heard from somebody over at the Blue Forge Alliance.
The Blue Forge Alliance oversees the Maritime Industrial Base.
The maritime industrial base consists of 15,000 individual companies who are collectively tasked with building our country's submarines, our nuclear-powered subs.
Their current cadence requires them to deliver three a year.
I think two Virginia class and one Columbia class, or maybe the other way around.
Regardless, it's a massive undertaking.
These things are technically breathtaking, and the amount of skilled labor it takes to make one real is mind-boggling.
So the guy calls and he says, look, we have to deliver 30 of these things over the next decade and we need to hire 100,000 skilled workers right now.
And then he says, do you know where they are?
And I thought for a second and laughed because I get phone calls like this all the time.
And I didn't mean to be too glib, but I said, yeah, man, I know where they are.
They're in the eighth grade.
That's where they are right now.
And you guys at the Navy and through Blue Forge Alliance, just like Ford and Caterpillar and every other big brand in this country that relies on skilled labor, you guys have to make a more persuasive case for the 7.6 million jobs that are currently open, currently open, that employers are struggling to fill.
These are good jobs, six-figure jobs.
They're all welding, pipe-fitting, steam-fitting, electric, HVAC, and so forth.
Because that skills gap is real.
And if the president succeeds in truly reinvigorating American manufacturing, he's going to run into all of the challenges and obstacles that we are constantly talking about, whether it's tariffs and unions and so many other things come into play.
But he's also going to run into not just a skill gap, but a will gap.
And if we don't have...
A workforce that is enthusiastically prepared to go to work, if we don't have a workforce who is disabused of the stigmas and the stereotypes and the myths and the misperceptions that have kept millions of kids from giving these jobs an honest look, we're going to have a whole different type of problem.
Sorry for the filibuster, but one last thought.
Back in 2009, when we started Microworks, President Obama...
Announced a commitment to three million shovel-ready jobs.
And I wrote him an open letter and I said, listen, I'm rooting for you.
I love this idea, but have you thought about the fact that the country, by and large, is not all that interested in picking up a shovel?
And if you don't create some kind of enthusiasm for the very jobs you're determined to create, then you're going to wind up in a pretty nasty feedback loop.
And that's what we've been working on for the last 16 years.
And the ship is finally starting to turn.
Before we continue, as I'm listening to you, I can't help but think of this crazy irony.
Because I remember back in those days, there was this idea that people who had some of these jobs would need to, quote, learn to code.
Do you remember that?
Oh, sure.
Right. Well, now we have this massive kind of AI revolution, chatbot and much more revolution.
And that's mostly impacting, as I'm talking, I've had a few shows on this now, right?
The white-collar workers.
There's a whole lot of people that have quote-unquote learned to code that are actually going to be out of jobs because the AI does it better already.
On the other hand, and yes, robots are doing some of the work or are going to be doing some of the work, there's a whole lot of the skilled labor.
That's where actually the jobs are going to be.
That's what strikes me.
What are your thoughts here?
Well, my first thought is Elon Musk just spoke and he would probably be better suited to answer that question.
But from what I've seen, You're absolutely right.
For a long time, the robots were coming to upend the jobs in many, many factories.
And then there was thought about, well, when the AI and the robots get together, God, what's that going to do?
But now the whole thing is kind of the other way.
The real fear and loathing in the working class that I've seen is like paralegals and lawyers and people who really and truly...
AI is just bigger IQ.
Bigger and bigger and bigger IQ.
And when you apply that level of intelligence to searching and researching, right?
I don't know how the humans are going to compete.
But neither do I know how AI is going to supplant the plumber, who I'm currently waiting three days for, right?
They're in such short supply.
Or the electrician.
I don't understand how it's going to make the process of physically building a house move faster, right?
So many of these trades that we've been talking about elevating and reinvigorating for the last, I don't know, 16 years now, are suddenly in demand in a different way.
Because when people look at them, they realize you can't outsource that.
That job's not going to go away.
It might be impacted to some degree by AI.
I think AI, to some degree, is going to impact everything.
But these jobs are not going to be replaced.
And the 7.5 million positions that are open now, if we don't get in front of it, that number is just going to explode.
You're basically saying that we have to have a make-the-trades-grade-again effort, or make them sexy, make them cool.
Make them cool.
And it's happening, right?
God help us, but if you go on TikTok, and if you go on Instagram and some of the other platforms, you'll see tradespeople making a really persuasive case for their jobs.
They'll share videos, and they'll show you the wonder of fixing a thing in no uncertain terms.
And that helps a lot.
But we really, I just think, on a broad level, have to understand what we did to incite this.
We took shop class out of high school.
And we did it for a lot of reasons that may or may not have made much sense at the time.
Loved shop class, by the way.
I think I probably was one of the last.
I know I was.
When I was in high school, 79, 80, it was still there.
But it was winding down.
And through the 80s, we really took it out.
And what we did when we took it out was not just short change.
That cohort of kids who might have seen something in the vocational world that made sense to their brain, what we did was we removed those jobs from sight for everybody.
So on your way to English class from math class, maybe once upon a time you would walk past the wood shop or the metal shop or the auto shop and maybe you'd look in there and maybe you'd see something that looks like work.
And maybe that would get your brain thinking, oh, I wonder...
I wonder what that means.
I wonder what that is.
That was all removed.
So I think, I can't prove it, but I feel like I could draw a pretty straight line to the removal of shop class to $1.7 trillion in outstanding student loans for non-shop degrees.
I think I could draw a pretty straight line from that event.
To the 7.6 million open jobs that exist now that don't require a four-year degree, but instead some level of training, right?
And I think you can also just look around more broadly.
You can look at Hollywood.
You can look at Main Street.
You can look anywhere, and you can see the stigmas and the stereotypes that are still in people's minds that really make it difficult to recruit.
into the skilled trades.
All that crap has to be debunked.
People still don't believe me.
Even when I show them, not just the stats, but the actual humans who are making $150,000 a year welding with an $8,000 certificate.
They just don't believe it.
You have to show them, right?
So that's why I'm here at this thing.
I really think that part of what has to be on the table in the next couple of years is a concerted effort to debunk that nonsense.
Because if we don't get the next generation really thinking affirmatively about the possibilities of mastering a skill, then those submarines aren't going to get built.
And that's only a matter of national security.
Mike, I'm going to get you to tell me about your amazing program in one moment.
Just something else came to my mind.
I understand there's a very significant number of men today, young men, who are not working and are not even looking.
So tell me about that and what do we do about it?
Well, look, it's sobering because it doesn't say anything good about our country.
It really doesn't say anything good about the individuals either.
But it needs to be said, because it's happening right in front of us.
And the best guy to talk about this, and I know of, is an economist called Nick Everstadt, who wrote a book called Men Without Work, and then republished it during the lockdowns, because so much of what he said had not only come true, it had blasted beyond his worst prognostications.
The number is 7.2 million.
7.2 million able-bodied men are currently not only not working, they're affirmatively not looking for work.
That's a heck of a thing.
And when you look at 7.6 million open jobs and 7.2 million able-bodied men who have no interest in them.
A rational person would go, God, we just have to hook those groups up together.
I don't know how to do that.
I truly don't.
It worries me.
But I do know that behind those men is a new generation of people who aren't sitting home spending 2,000 hours a year on their screens.
That's the other number, by the way.
It's real.
Those guys, they're not engaged in civic...
They're not in the JCs.
They're not in the Kiwanis Club.
They're not an Alliance Club.
They're not in their church.
They're not making their community a better place.
They're not doing anything, really.
So, you know, it's a different part of the conversation, but it's important to acknowledge.
And yet it doesn't change the fact that whether they're 16 or 17 or 18 or 25, men, women, this part of our workforce.
Needs to be reinvigorated.
Fast. Or we've got problems, again, way beyond my pay grade.
So let's talk about what we can do.
And, you know, when we were talking privately, you were telling me that basically the sky's the limit for people that actually want to do this, that actually want to put the nose to the grindstone, work their butts off.
You're there to support them with your foundation.
Tell me about that.
So we offer work ethic scholarships, and they're a little different than your typical academic scholarship or your athletic or your artistic scholarship.
Scholarships are everything.
We look for people.
Like, I'm more concerned with your attendance record than I am your GPA.
I'm more concerned with, will you fill out our entire application?
You've got to jump through some hoops.
Can you provide references?
If you were applying for a job, can you make a persuasive case for yourself?
I like to look at video of the person.
I like to have them write an essay.
They've got to sign a sweat pledge.
My sweat pledge is a 12-point statement of belief.
I'm going to work my butt off, basically.
That's the sweat pledge.
It's a big part of it.
Part of it was just an attempt to articulate what I think work ethic is.
Part of it, too, was an attempt to kind of drill down on things like delayed gratification and just a decent attitude and a measure of personal responsibility and gratitude.
Like, the very first thing in the sweat pledge says, I believe I have won the greatest lottery of all time.
I'm alive.
I walk the earth.
Above all things, I'm grateful.
I love that.
If you don't agree with that, we can still be friends, right?
I don't need everybody to agree with me, but this particular pile of free money is not for you.
And I tell people that every year.
It's impossible to feel sorry for yourself.
It's impossible to feel like a victim if you're fundamentally grateful.
So the pledge is full of these things that are really easy to make fun of, and people take their shots at it, and I don't mind, because I'm super stingy with the money we raise.
And when I hand it out, I want to make sure it's to people who at least see the world more or less the way I do, and who are genuinely willing to pursue a skill that's in demand.
That's what matters most.
Beyond that, I can't control...
What happens?
But the business of elevating and celebrating work ethic matters.
And we've so far awarded, I think, about $12 million in these scholarships.
We'll do $2.5 million this month.
We just opened our next work ethic scholarship program.
But the thing is, to your earlier point, it could be $25 million.
For the first time now, we have enough interest.
We have people.
People got the memo.
People know that the four-year degree is not a guarantee.
They know it's expensive.
Gen Z gets it.
Many of their parents are starting to get it.
Many guidance counselors are starting to get it.
So we're seeing a level of interest now for the first time that makes me say, well, because I don't fundraise.
I don't go out and do the chicken dinners and the golf tournaments.
I don't put the arm on people.
But I might start.
Honestly, look, there's a lot of money here.
And there are a lot of people who I think understand that this has to be part of a larger solution.
So I'll take your money, and that's how I'll spend it.
But, you know, something that strikes me here, I don't think you said it's free money.
I don't think it's free money.
You're giving people money to build their character.
That's kind of what I'm hearing here.
Well, I'm making fun of a kind of...
Shorthand that exists in the scholarship game.
If you're going to play the scholarship game, you don't really apply for one scholarship.
Because there's so many out there.
And so it puts the people who administer the scholarships in an interesting spot.
If I find somebody who's a true rock star, maybe I want to pay for their entire education at UTI.
Maybe I want to really get behind that person.
At the same time...
I want them to have skin in the game.
Like, I love helping people later in life who want to retrain, learn a new skill.
I like helping people who've got a year in and need some help finishing their second year.
And I like the fact that smart people who hustle, they'll go, like the Marine Corps, for instance, has a great scholarship fund that's earmarked just for sons and daughters of Marines.
So I encourage people who apply for one of my scholarships, if they qualify for that one, to go apply there too.
You can get your whole education paid for by three or four different scholarship funds who are all kind of on the same page.
Now selfishly, I'd like to do all of it, but that's the real point.
Nobody's going to do all of it.
And nobody's actually going to close the skills gap either.
This is very stoic.
This is Sisyphean.
This is quixotic.
We're not going to fill 7.6 million jobs tomorrow.
But I do think if we start to have the kind of conversation we're having, and if it catches fire, then things are going to happen fast, which brings us back to where we started.
If the president succeeds, either through tariffs or sheer persuasion, to bring manufacturing back to this country...
You're going to see a flight towards skilled labor that I think is probably going to be unrivaled in the history of modern work.
One quick thought as we finish up.
One of the things I've been watching is the birth rates in all the Western countries being so low.
It's a disaster, frankly.
Just quicker disaster for some countries other than others.
Mostly in the Western world.
There's one, and there's countries like Hungary, which have been really trying to move the needle.
It's still very hard for them, right?
In Mongolia, they have moved the needle.
This is what I've been told.
And they do an incredible celebration of motherhood.
Someone is back to every year, goes to the presidential palace, is celebrated on all the media.
I mean, it's a whole big thing.
And it's all about kind of what you've been talking about, you know, celebrating.
The people that are going to be doing the thing that's really important for society.
Sure. Right?
So maybe as we finish up here, that feels to me like what you're trying to do here.
Two thoughts.
You're talking about gratitude.
And that's why it's the first tenet in the sweat pledge.
And that's why I always mention it.
Because it's really tempting in this conversation to talk about, okay, the employers have this recruiting challenge.
And it's easy to talk about, okay, all these people who are unemployed, they've got to get the skills and the desire, and those are the parties that kind of push the conversation forward.
It's not going to really, really, truly change until the other 300 million Americans who share my addiction to smooth roads and affordable energy and indoor plumbing.
Decent standard of living, yes.
That's right.
The national gratitude sounds like a hippy-dippy, irrelevant thing, but it's not.
Because when a kid's trying to figure out what to do with his or her life, and they look around and they don't see shop class, and they don't...
If you're a construction worker working on a road, and the people who drive by give you the finger because you've slowed them down, they don't...
They don't feel great about their contribution to the bigger picture, right?
So part of what you're talking about in Mongolia, and I'm not up to speed on the Mongols, full disclosure, but if the society has a fundamental appreciation for the underlying topic, then the conversation gets a lot easier.
Second point, regarding the math itself.
You know, I'm no Malthusian, and the declining population thing does It does worry me.
But what worries me more is the specific math with regard to the trades.
Every year, for the last decade or so, for every five tradesmen who retire, two replace them.
Five leave, two come in.
Now, you don't have to be a math major to look at that and go, that's just, the arithmetic is not on our side.
That's the other thing pushing this forward.
I probably should have started with this, but I'll end with it instead because bookends are important.
Part of what we're talking about is PR, changing the stigmas, stereotypes, myths, misperception.
But the other thing is just the cold calculus of the arithmetic.
The numbers are not on our side, and that's why it's so important to make the case now to kids who are in middle school and in high school.
Because... If you've got 7.2 million able-bodied men not impressed by the opportunities that exist and able, for whatever reason, to not work, we can't ignore that.
It just means we have to act that much faster to get the cohort we have engaged.
Well, Mike Crow, it's such a pleasure having you on again.
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