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Nov. 12, 2023 - Epoch Times
22:49
Why Selling Fentanyl Should Be Charged as Homicide | Michael Hestrin #californiainsider #fentanyl
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And so they take one and it kills them because it's completely fake.
I don't think the general public fully understands the danger they're facing from fentanyl.
Fentanyl is purely chemistry, just produced in the lab.
There's no natural component.
Such a small amount is lethal to the human body.
The toxicity of this drug The man-made chemical substance known as fentanyl is being mixed in with all sorts of drugs and is killing countless people.
But could these drug dealers be charged with murder, knowing full well the consequences of selling fentanyl?
They're not intentionally trying to kill their clients, obviously they want to sell them drugs, but they know how dangerous and deadly this substance is, and yet they continue to sell because they want the money.
Their clients are sort of collateral damage.
They don't really care about them.
My guest today is Michael Hestry, Riverside District Attorney.
Today he discusses how fentanyl has become widely available on our streets, and why he thinks selling fentanyl should be charged as murder.
What we're trying to do is get people to stop dealing fentanyl because fentanyl is a deadly poison that kills people indiscriminately.
I want to get the drug dealers to think to themselves, in Riverside County, if I deal fentanyl, I could go to prison for the rest of my life.
And that's what I'm after because I want them to stop.
I'm Siamai Korami.
Welcome to California Insider.
Thank you for having me.
We want to talk to you about fentanyl.
In your office, you're among the first California offices that want to prosecute fentanyl dealers with murder.
Is that the case?
It is.
My office, the Riverside County District Attorney's Office, has prosecuted 10 defendants for murder based on a theory of fentanyl.
Selling or furnishing fentanyl to someone when it results in the death, in the death of a human being.
So we've got ten defendants, nine cases so far.
Now, is this legal?
Are you able to do this legally?
Yes, so we're going forward on several legal theories, and obviously the cases are relatively new.
We have not gone to court yet and gotten convictions.
Once we get convictions, and I'm confident that we will, once we get convictions, the cases will be Go up to the appellate courts and they'll be tested.
But we're confident and I'm confident that we're on solid legal grounds because there's a case in California, People vs.
Watson, and it applies to DUI cases.
So for example, in California when somebody commits a DUI and they've done so before and then They do it again and they kill somebody in a fatal car accident because they were under the influence.
Prosecutors can charge that case with second-degree murder on a theory called implied malice.
And I won't go too much into the legal theories, but it's well established in California appellate law, in California law, and that's the theory that we're proceeding under, that somebody gave Or, you know, sold fentanyl knowing it was incredibly dangerous, understanding the dangers, and then chose to disregard the dangers and did it anyway.
Now, how come you guys decided to do this with fentanyl?
So, the way that this came about is, you know, the father of a young woman who had died of fentanyl poisoning about two years ago came to me and talked to me about, you know, ask hard questions of me, the district attorney, you know, why isn't this murder?
Why can't we hold the person accountable who killed my daughter?
And at that time, we started looking into exactly what had happened, And we began to, at the same time, what we saw was a really a marked increase in the number of fentanyl deaths in Riverside County.
So between 2015 and 2020, there was an 800% increase in the number of deaths just in our county.
In 2021, we are expecting, when it's all said and done, to have more than 500 fentanyl deaths in the county.
So that's what drove us, and we launched into a fentanyl awareness campaign, a fentanyl education campaign for our youth, and then part of it is also the prosecution.
Do people really know, the people that are getting involved with fentanyl, do they really know that this could happen or just happens?
I don't think the general public fully understands the danger they're facing from fentanyl.
Let me elaborate a little bit on what is happening.
Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid.
A lot of drugs have a natural component, like say, cocaine comes from the coca leaf.
Heroin comes from the poppy plant.
But fentanyl is purely chemistry, just produced in the lab, there's no natural component.
So it's being mass produced primarily in China, and then being smuggled to Mexico or other parts of Latin America, It's being then smuggled across our southern border, not exclusively, but primarily our southern border.
It comes into the United States, and then it's being dispersed by drug trafficking organizations, gangs, and organized crime that are working here in the United States.
What's happening is that because it's just purely made in a lab, it's cheaper than all other drugs.
And so what we're finding is that this new drug, fentanyl, is being mixed with all existing illegal drugs.
So we're finding it mixed with methamphetamine, cocaine, and cocaine derivatives.
It's being mixed with heroin.
Even some forms of marijuana we're finding fentanyl mixed in.
The reason what's driving that is pure greed by the The dealers.
Their cost of production, their cost of making their drug, if they use fentanyl, they can still provide a high, but they can use less of whatever other drug.
And so it makes it cheaper for them.
So they're making more money.
And that's what's driving the proliferation of fentanyl across the country.
The problem with fentanyl is that such a small amount is lethal to the human body.
So just to give you an example, two milligrams is lethal for human beings.
So two milligrams of fentanyl can cause death.
There are 5,000 milligrams in a teaspoon of fentanyl.
So we're finding on the streets kilos of pure fentanyl.
So, you know, the toxicity of this drug is something we've never seen before.
It's overwhelming our systems.
And so people are taking these drugs A, not knowing how lethal it is.
So they're taking a drug, their drug dealer has made this new combination, they think they're getting methamphetamine, they think they're getting cocaine, and they're really getting, at least part of it, is fentanyl.
And it's killing them.
The other really dangerous thing that's happening at the very same time is that the drug trafficking organizations have begun expanding into counterfeit pharmaceuticals.
So, for example, They bought pill-making machines now.
Wow.
So they've become very advanced.
They've become very sophisticated, increasingly sophisticated.
So they make counterfeit pharmaceuticals, and they color them, and they stamp them with the markings that they look identical to a real pharmaceutical product.
So you can't tell with the naked eye that this pill was not made in a lab.
In fact, it was made by a cartel member or a drug-trafficking organization.
The difference is, of course, that the cartels and the gangs are using fentanyl instead of the real drugs.
So Percocet, Valium, Adderall, those are all, you know, drugs, pharmaceuticals that are being counterfeited by these drug trafficking organizations.
So why that is so deadly for our citizens is because, you know, we have young people that are, for example, going to a party.
They find themselves at a party and maybe one of their friends says, hey, try this Percocet.
Or, you know, take this, it'll make you relaxed.
And we're finding a lot of young people that, you know, they look down and in their hand is a pill that looks just like something they would see out of a medicine cabinet.
And they're taking it.
Or, you know, they're biting off half of it because maybe they think it's going to help them sleep.
And they're not waking up.
And this is happening all over the country.
I mean, it's ravaging.
The number of fentanyl deaths are exploding all over the country.
And, you know, I want to point out, these are not just statistics.
These are people's loved ones.
These are kids, our neighbors, our loved ones, our nieces and nephews.
And so it's hitting home in every community.
And we decided we were going to fight back against this scourge.
Your thoughts are that these drug dealers are actually, they know what they're doing.
They're gonna kill people with putting fentanyl into these pills.
Is there any frustration with the way we're handling this?
You guys are coming and prosecuting it this way?
In terms of like the police not being able to catch him or like we're not able to deal with it?
A lot of frustration.
Let me comment on your first part of your question, though.
So, the dealers are not trying to kill their clients.
They just don't care if they do.
Does that make sense?
So, essentially, you know, they're engaging in conduct.
They're not intentionally trying to kill their clients.
Obviously, they want to sell them drugs, but they know how dangerous and deadly this substance is, and yet they continue to sell because they want the money.
So, their clients are sort of collateral damage.
They don't really care about them.
It's business for them.
They just don't care.
They don't care.
So that's the legal theory that we're proceeding under.
It's that kind of a murder, right?
Typically, that's how we proceed on these cases.
There are many frustrations in the prosecution of these cases.
So, for example, the federal government has a law against, well, has a law that says that if somebody furnishes an illegal drug causing death, then that can result in 20 years in federal prison.
So, we don't have any law like that in California.
Our law in California is we have to proceed under murder.
It's much more difficult.
So the law as it stands today is very difficult.
We have to build a case, painstakingly build a case, and sometimes we use many methods to prove the case, but it's a difficult hurdle for us.
Not every case can be proven under this theory.
As I mentioned earlier, in 2021, we've had more than 500 fentanyl deaths.
We can't charge all those cases as murder.
It's only the ones where we have the evidence to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt and prove murder.
And so there are many frustrations.
The biggest frustration is from parents who say to me and to other prosecutors, what about my children?
How is this okay that We're allowing, as a society, we're allowing drug dealers to poison our youth.
Who are the dealers of these drugs?
Is it cartels?
You mentioned that they're coming from China and then to Mexico.
Yes.
Who are these people?
There's a whole variety, a whole chain, a supply chain, if you will.
The Mexican drug cartels are the ones that are smuggling fentanyl across the border.
Once it gets across the border, then obviously they're selling their product to drug trafficking organizations working in the United States, and then that gets proliferated down through a network of A criminal network through gangs and through other local drug dealers.
And so the drug dealers, I mean, people responsible for these deaths vary.
The local drug dealer at the very lowest level who furnishes fentanyl can be charged with murder if they kill somebody with fentanyl poisoning.
But frankly, if we can get the drug traffickers, if we can get the cartels, we're after that too.
And we are working on that.
We're working on moving up to get the suppliers of fentanyl.
Those are tough cases and those are tough investigations, but we are working on it.
Is Prop 47 a reason for you guys not being able to prosecute these, or does Prop 47 have a role in this?
Not really, not directly.
I would say potentially indirectly.
Prop 47 made illegal drug possession from a felony to a misdemeanor.
And so maybe indirectly it has, in the sense that You know, people may feel that there's no penalty for use of drugs.
Certainly, possession of drugs has become a misdemeanor.
And frankly, many law enforcement agencies have just stopped.
They don't bother with sending us cases on misdemeanor possession of drugs.
So in that sense, the idea that we have, as a society, we've taken a very permissive Attitude towards drug use.
Now, you know, I want to be careful because I'm not blaming the victims here.
I'm not blaming people who are addicts or even people who are experimenting or using drugs recreationally.
It's not legal, but their deaths are a different matter.
So, for example, someone might say to me, well, Mr.
DA, you know, the victim of Of one of the crimes that you're prosecuting for murder chose to ingest that pill.
And I would say you're right, they did, but they didn't know that they were getting a death sentence for that.
So, you know, it matters what people thought, what their intentions were, and so we proceed on the cases that we have the evidence for.
There's a group of people, there's a group of DAs in California that have the ideology of being softer on crime, especially drug-related crimes.
Do you think that they would agree with this approach?
Do you think they are aligned with this approach, or do you think they will?
No.
No, they're very much against this approach.
You know, some of the criticisms that I've seen of this office's action is they try to liken it to the tough-on-crime drug wars of the 1980s and 90s, and that's not what this is.
So we are not prosecuting people so that they stop using drugs.
We're not trying to—you know, we're realistic.
We know that the drug trade is overwhelming.
What we're trying to do is get people to stop dealing fentanyl because fentanyl is a deadly poison that kills people indiscriminately.
That's what we're trying to, through education and awareness and this tough approach on prosecution, I want to get the drug dealers to think to themselves, in Riverside County, if I deal fentanyl, I could go to prison for the rest of my life.
And that's what I'm after, because I want them to stop.
Do you think they will respond?
Do you think they're sophisticated enough to know the laws and the consequences and they will respond like that?
Or do you think they will...
Absolutely.
You know, criminals and people who are committing crimes, they may be criminals, but they're not dumb.
And I know that they're getting the message because I've heard from leaders in the drug rehabilitation community, for example.
So there are, you know, many rehabilitative centers in Riverside County and many organizations that specialize in treating people who are addicted, right?
And I've heard from group sessions and kind of the chatter that the actions that we've taken has resonated among not only drug dealers but drug users and the understanding that, look, the DA in Riverside County is taking this approach.
It means that Not only am I in danger of death, I could end up, if I sell this or furnish it, I could end up in prison for the rest of my life.
So that message is getting out.
So that message is getting out.
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Say no to Big Tech and subscribe to Epic TV. So what do you think will happen if we don't stop this fentanyl growth and crisis that we are facing?
Well, look, in 2016 in Riverside County, we had two fentanyl-related deaths, two.
And every year since then, the number of fentanyl-related deaths has doubled or more, roughly doubled or more.
So, you know, skip ahead to 2021, and we're going to have over 500.
So from two to 500 in just a few years.
So this is a wave that's sweeping across our country.
I think that if we don't Come together, again, through awareness, through education, and through prosecution and enforcement.
If we don't find a way to turn back the tide, then we're facing a real crisis.
The number of deaths are going to continue to increase, and this is a scourge Because it's related to addiction.
It's related to drug use.
It's a scourge that cuts across all socioeconomic, all demographic lines.
It hits everybody.
Nobody's immune to this.
So I think what's going to happen is the country's going to wake up and we're going to change our attitude towards drug trafficking and drug dealing and maybe, hopefully, even drug use, where people will say, this is not something that I can do safely.
Here's what I'll tell you.
Other than under the care of a physician, there's no safe way to use fentanyl.
Illegal fentanyl on the street is deadly and it's killing Americans by the thousands.
Now, what about other counties across California?
Some other counties are joining you guys, right?
Yes.
I'm very happy to say that, you know, we started this about a year and a half ago, and we now, as I mentioned, we have nine cases and ten defendants.
And in that time, since those first cases, the Orange County District Attorney has followed suit, San Bernardino County, and I believe some other counties are also jumping on board and taking a similar approach.
Now, do you have any other thoughts for our audience on this topic?
So, one of the things that I want the audience to know is that we in law enforcement, we can't do this alone.
We need the public's help.
So, I think all of us have to have tough conversations with our families, with our loved ones.
Here's a fact that they need to know.
Those counterfeit pills that I mentioned, the DEA estimates that 40% of the illegal counterfeit pharmaceuticals that are on the street are fatal.
They contain a fatal dose of fentanyl.
40%.
So when somebody, anybody, but especially young people who sometimes are caught up in a party atmosphere or whatever, when they take a pill, 40% chance that they're going to die from that.
So our public needs to know that.
They need to know the hard facts and then make their decisions.
I hope that they will think twice because I'll tell and I'll urge people to tell their kids, their loved ones, any people in their lives about this.
Tell them what I told my own children.
You cannot anymore If you ever could, but now especially, you cannot ever take a pill that was not prescribed to you by your doctor.
If somebody hands you a pill at a party, if someone says, hey, I have some Percocet, it'll make you relaxed or help you sleep, you can't take it.
You have to assume that it contains a fatal dose of fentanyl.
Do you have any other thoughts for state leaders on this topic?
I do.
Look, I'm just one local district attorney.
I'm doing my best to try to keep my public safe.
Prosecutors and police wake up every day.
We're responding to crime, obviously, but we also try to be proactive in some senses.
This is a case where we're trying to be proactive.
We're trying to get the public to understand the dangers and we're doing targeted prosecutions to help get that point across and to bring justice to those cases where we have the evidence.
But state lawmakers in California and around the country, we need your help.
We need your help to turn back the tide of fentanyl deaths.
And the laws have to protect the average The laws should not just protect the wealthy, the elite, people in high places.
People living on our streets and living in everyday America are suffering from the fentanyl crisis and our elected leaders must recognize it and I urge them to take action to help us turn back the tide.
Well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for watching.
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