Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer - Trans Debate University of Tennessee

May 5, 2022 - Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer

02:03:13

Trans Debate University of Tennessee | Schaffer vs Destiny

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	It's, that's Tess.
	Good evening, everybody.
	Thank you for coming out.
	This means a whole lot.
	There's been a whole lot of planning and work that's gone into this so it's a dream come through come true to have all you out here.
	My name is James Cowell.
	I'm the president of Uncensored America here at the University of Tennessee.
	First and foremost, I want to thank the university campus event staff for helping us out so much and the UCPD for providing security.
	And I also want to thank Sean Simanco, our founder really quick, for coming up with such a great idea as this.
	And with that, I want to hand it off to a representative from the student union.
	Good evening, everybody.
	My name is Joe Pierce.
	I'm the Associate Dean of Students, and I'm here to kind of share a message from the broader institution.
	Tonight's event has been organized by a University of Tennessee Registered Student Organization for the engagement of the campus community.
	As a public university, our campus is a marketplace of ideas.
	The university embraces debate and will protect the freedom of our campus community to vigorously discuss ideas.
	We ask that you respect the speakers, the students who organize the event, and your fellow students in attendance by allowing the speakers to be heard.
	University policy and state law prohibit substantial obstruction or interference with this event.
	Those who attempt to interrupt the speakers or otherwise prevent them from speaking will be asked to leave and may be subject to disciplinary action or arrest.
	Thank you for your cooperation.
	Thank you so much.
	Really appreciate that.
	We love when any university supports free speech.
	Like David said, I am the founder of Uncensored America.
	My name is Sean Semenko.
	And we are going to be giving you guys a fantastic debate today with two speakers of slightly different opinions.
	Maybe some agreement in there, maybe some vast differences.
	We're about to find out.
	Free speech is really what's at the heart of our organization.
	It is the beating heart of what we're doing.
	We're trying to kick off a free speech rebellion on campus with a simple mission.
	It's just to empower young Americans here to fight for free speech in order to make American culture more free, more fun, more enjoyable to live in.
	And we've been fighting for free speech this whole time.
	And a lot of people say that they're fighting for free speech, but what does that really mean?
	What does it mean when you're actually fighting for free speech?
	Because we already have the First Amendment, so why do we need to be fighting for it?
	Simple fact is we just don't have free speech in the social, cultural, and practical sense of the matter.
	Yes, we do have the First Amendment, but it's only as good as if you can't be canceled at work, you can't be fired for edgy jokes online or having mean tweets.
	The whole idea of what we're doing is to push the boundaries of free speech so that we can have more acceptable, more open, honest conversations with people of all kinds of different opinions.
	I want to hand over to my pal right here because he has been helping us work on this as well a lot.
	All right.
	Hey, guys.
	I'm Keaton Powell, and I am the VP of the College Libertarians Club here at UT, and I'll be the president next year.
	And we just wanted to basically help as much as we could with Uncensored USA putting on this event, and we really support them and hope it's a constructive debate.
	We wanted to plug while I'm up here.
	We have a governor candidate coming up to Knoxville on May the 12th.
	His name is LaMichael Wilson, and he'll be talking about basically his campaign and his three biggest issues, which is ballot access, criminal justice reform, and ending civil asset forfeiture.
	So just wanted to say that and hope everybody has a good night.
	Thank you.
	I really appreciate it.
	And like I said, this is a national organization.
	It's not just here at the University of Tennessee.
	We've actually been around for quite a while.
	So if you want to keep up on anything else that we're doing, you can scan that QR code there to know when we're doing more events, more debates, or anything like that.
	But we actually started in 2020 at Penn State University.
	That's where I used to go to.
	And in my senior year, I decided to start this club because I felt that the other organizations weren't allowing me to do proper free speech and have the events I wanted to with the people I want to.
	And I started talking around to people, and they had the same belief.
	So we formed a club, and we started doing the events that we wanted to do with the speakers we wanted to do.
	And now we're at two universities.
	We started at Penn State, and we are now moving on to the University of Tennessee, and more campuses as we keep growing.
	At Penn State, though, we've already had two events that were tremendously successful.
	On the left there is Milo Yiannopoulos when he spoke at our campus and Destiny and Elijah when they were there just a week ago.
	So we have two debates right in a row.
	Last one was on Ukraine and Russia.
	Now we're going to do one on transgenderism.
	It'll be a lot of fun.
	So if you guys want to know more about the club and get more involved, you can talk to David or any of the execs here and they'll help get you rolling on that.
	Now, on to the debate that we've all been waiting for.
	This is something that is very controversial nowadays, transgenderism.
	It's a very new concept, and a lot of people are trying to understand it.
	So that's what we're hoping to come to today, is an understanding between everybody.
	A lot of people I've talked to said, well, what's the point of debating this?
	There are two people that are never going to agree on it.
	Maybe that's true.
	Maybe it's not.
	They might not change their minds.
	Maybe they will.
	But the important thing to come out of it is an open mind and an understanding of both sides.
	That way we can move forward as society and try to find solutions to these issues because that is at the core of what free speech is.
	It's to express yourself, to listen, and understand each other.
	I hope that's what we do today.
	So our two debaters that we have come from the left and the right.
	On the right, we have Elijah Schaefer, who is the host of Blaze TV, where he hosts two shows, Slightly Offensive, and You Are Here.
	He famously filmed Kyle Rittenhouse shooting and the January 6th riots.
	And he will be on the opposition for this.
	But in the affirmative, we will have Destiny, aka Stephen Bonnell, who is famous for pretty much debating everybody on the internet and has grown this whole genre on Twitch and YouTube for it.
	And he was also banned from Twitch recently for discussing this very topic.
	So we thought when that happened, it'd be perfect to host this debate.
	So without further ado, everybody, please welcome Elijah Shaffer and Destiny.
	All right, for this debate, it's going to be pretty free-flowing, kind of like on online debates where people just sort of discuss ideas rather than doing a Lincoln-Douglas style debate.
	So we're going to start with some opening statements.
	We're going to have a little conversation and then go into closing statements and then end with a Q ⁇ A.
	Then we'll start right here.
	We'll have a line of forms right there for anybody that wants to ask questions, they can ask them.
	So Destiny, you can kick things off with opening statements.
	Yeah, I mean, I got the opening statement on this one.
	So I think that we have to acknowledge that trans people exist.
	I think we've gotten to that point.
	So the next question is, what is the best way to incorporate them into our world in a way that minimizes harm to other members of our world, might be women and women's sports, and in a way that minimizes harm to trans people in and of themselves as trans people.
	I imagine in this conversation we'll talk about a variety of things relating to medical transitioning, which I think is important and appropriate even at early ages with the proper guidance.
	We'll probably talk about things like the incorporation of trans people into sports, which I think is a good idea up through high school, maybe not at the NCAA level.
	And then I'm sure we'll talk about the incorporation of trans people into social settings, like the dreaded bathroom question and however else that might come up.
	But yeah, I mean, obviously I advocate for incorporating trans people as much as we can.
	As long as we're all respecting each other, I think we can do it pretty easily.
	And yeah, I think people overcomplicate the topic a lot because obviously people's feelings get really heated.
	But I think it's a pretty simple process to figure out the appropriate way to make everybody happy.
	All right, Elijah.
	All right, my name is Elijah Schaefer.
	If you don't know me, and my official position on this is the trans incorporation or inclusion is not really a debate because they exist.
	As long as humans exist in this world, we have to find some way to work with them or to deal with them.
	And so we have a problem because trans people do not know how to deal with themselves in many ways in their own community.
	There's a lot of arguments and there's a lot of disagreements with even in the LGBTQ community on how to include trans people.
	Arguments range from moral arguments like religious.
	They range from self-harm or mental health, including the high suicide rates, high attempt at suicide among trans people, how to protect them from killing themselves, and also how to integrate them into society that largely is religious and does reject their existence.
	I think I agree with Destiny over here that there are some questions that still need to be answered.
	How they are integrated into the military, I don't think we ever got the bathroom question fully answered.
	I also believe the understanding of how we teach children is very integral and when and how we teach them about this since they are such a small minority of people.
	And why there is this increase in identifying as transgenders in newer and younger generations.
	All ideas I hope to discuss and come to some great conclusions on.
	All right, sounds good.
	I think where I'd like to start is transgenders and sports, because it seems like something that you guys might agree on.
	What are your takes on that?
	I think that sports are very different depending on what level you're playing at.
	When we're talking about grade school and high school, I think that the idea of sports is you have children that are physically active and you've got children that are integrated into these kind of socially cohesive groups.
	I also don't think that the level of competitiveness rises to us needing to make sure that there is like 100% good competition in a woman's sport or a male sport.
	So I think for trans people, I think when it comes to grade school or high school, I think they should be included in whatever they identify as, assuming they're making some effort to transition or I think whatever the person would reasonably want to play as, obviously, if this is going to mean that you're not going to have a 17-year-old boy who's like, I just want to play in women's sports, there'll have to be people that are making a legitimate effort to, at the very least, socially transition over in that direction.
	I think that once you hit college and we start talking about scholarships, we start talking about NCAA positions, I think that the argument becomes a lot less tenable to where it seems harder to, we're really talking about trans women being included in cis women's sports because nobody seems to have a problem with trans men being in cis men sports or the open sports bracket.
	I think it's harder to defend the idea that trans women should be competing alongside cis women unless perhaps they've transitioned before puberty's happened.
	Yeah.
	Elijah?
	Yeah, I think the trans debate in sports is important to distinction, make a distinction between when you have a high stakes sports competition, right?
	Obviously, if you have random people in some sort of an intramural sports in college where the stakes are not high and people are just playing, I mean, you can even have intersex teams, men and women playing together.
	And transgender just playing on casual sports teams is not really that big of a deal because there's nothing really to lose or to gain.
	But we talk about sports, I don't think we're really talking a lot about high school, even though it is interesting that back in 2017, even UCLA was saying about 0.7% of youth 13 to 17 identified as transgender.
	And even modern studies just last year say it could be 1.6 to 2.3%.
	So whether that's a number about 150,000 to 400,000 or more, depending on which study you read, they also said about 12 to 14% of high schoolers, specifically of youth, will go on probably to play some sports.
	That is an issue, but my biggest take is when you actually enter into competition, and I think we agree on this, the problem is when you have scholarships at play, when you have the ability and access to higher universities where it can lead on to professional sports, high school does become an important part of the competition and the discussion and argument.
	And so does junior high, which is part of the initial training to move on and to actually become an elite player or an active role model inside of whatever league you're playing or sport.
	And so I want to say with the transgender issue, this is a problem because specifically there's no greater issue, I think, where the disparities between men and trans men and women and trans women come into play than directly in physical competition simply based on their biological traits alone.
	So I think this discussion is important.
	And I also think that transgender should not be allowed to play in any sort of competitive sports with the biological gender at all.
	Well, I think where a lot of this comes into play is the fact that we're letting people transition at a fairly young age, some might say, around 18, I guess.
	Would you be okay with people transitioning in high school, or would you want them to wait till they're 21 or an older age?
	So we're saying outside of sports, just transitioning in general?
	Yes, because I feel like that's what impacts these sports, and that's why we're having this debate right now.
	Yeah, so I think there's a distinction between being transgender and being transsexual, which modern terms say transsexual is down the line of transgenderism.
	But if you're transgender, we have a hard time even finding a standard of when you actually are considered transgender.
	I mean, some people go as far to argue that it's whenever you decide that you have dysphoria or you decide that you are the opposite gender or sex with the understanding that they are not linked or with that acceptance, which I disagree with.
	But on top of that, if you move further along the line, you can get diagnosed with gender dysphoria, with gender identity disorder.
	You can go through treatment, usually about a year of counseling.
	Sometimes recommendations are made, right?
	You might have androgens, you might have even puberty blockers, and you might go as far as to actually have cross-sex surgery, which I say would make you more of a transsexual itself.
	I don't believe that any minors should be, you know, to your question, should be getting any sort of puberty blockers.
	I believe that's child abuse.
	I don't believe that you should be using off-label medication like that.
	I mean, we saw that argument even with Ivermectin during COVID.
	There's a lot of dangers involved with over 24,000 cases recently, just in the last decade with the FDA, of harmful effects due to lack of study for the specific use.
	Cross-sex hormones in itself could be more of a moral argument, but I disagree with that as well, especially for a minor, considering their fragile state, their development, and where they are at in life.
	And of course, I do not believe that any sort of surgery, including mastectomy or any sort of bottom is the common term, bottom surgery, should be accessible to minors.
	I believe that is an adult decision.
	And so, if you're asking this, yeah, I do not believe the minors should have access to that.
	And I don't believe if trans people want to play in sports that have any sort of stakes that could lead to long-term life effects for anybody of the biological sex, they should have their own league of some sort or some sort of alternative set up for them.
	And what's your response, Destiny?
	So, wait, to which part?
	The transgender inclusion sports and the debate around at what age should they be allowed to transgender.
	Okay, so, yeah, so tackling the age part first, I think that three people should be involved in making a decision related to trans health care.
	I think it should be the parents, I think it should be the child, and then I think it should be whatever medical team you have that you are consulting with the parents and the child.
	I don't like the idea that the government needs to step in and they need to say, Hey, you're not allowed to do this, you're not allowed to pursue this.
	I just think it's wholly inappropriate.
	I don't think the government has a stake there in intervening in that conversation.
	I think this is an issue that families and doctors should deal with.
	A lot of people can be critical of how some of these gender clinics have been run, which is fine.
	I mean, some people are critical of how ADHD drugs are prescribed.
	I don't think we would ban all this entire class of drugs available to children just because there are some problems, which we can acknowledge, which we can approve on.
	So, in terms of the appropriate age to pursue any sort of, you know, whether we're talking about puberty blockers or whether we're talking further on the road, like hormone replacement therapy or further on the road, gender-affirming surgeries like bottom or top surgery, I think that's a conversation that's best left to the medical professionals and to the family.
	In terms of when people can participate in schools, sports, I firmly believe that high school and grade school sports are a place where you develop camaraderie, where you have a social group and you have fun.
	I understand that you're gonna have scouts that are working at high school levels, but I mean, I think you can still pick out good players.
	I don't think we're gonna see high school teams dominated by hundreds of massive trans women that are just destroying all the cis women's sports.
	Trans people are a small enough section of the society that I don't think that that's a foreseeable issue.
	And I don't think you're hogging or occupying a really important slot like you would be in the NCAA, where you've got like a hundred times less of these slots available for people to compete in, which is where I think you do have legitimate arguments for should trans women be allowed to compete with cis women at these levels.
	Yeah, I was going to say, it is an interesting conversation specifically at a high school level because even if you took UCLA's recent research, I mean, maybe you're talking about 19,000 actual transgender students trying to compete in sports in about 24,000 different high schools.
	So, you're talking about less than one transgender that's playing sports in every single high school.
	This does beg the question, though, and the importance, and I'd love to talk to you about this, of where we make the distinction with young people on where we acknowledge that they truly are transgender or we acknowledge them as transsexual, if we want to use more of the medical term, and where that mark comes.
	Because there obviously are young men and young women who will abuse any system, right?
	I mean, you tell kids they can't talk, then they write notes, they can't write notes, then they text.
	They find ways around all types of things to be rebellious and to fight against the system.
	But when it comes to the transgender debate, I feel like we do ourselves a very disservice, both medically and socially, in the fact that I don't think we can find the congruence of how to define this genuinely to where we say, here's at the point to where you actually are a transsexual, and we are going to acknowledge you in society as the opposite sex.
	We are going to give you that acknowledgement, realizing that it may not be genuinely or biologically real, but at least you have the disorder, you have dysphoria.
	This isn't the same dysphoria that most pre-pubescent, up to 98% of kids that have grow out of, or mid-pubescent, like 88 to 85% of kids grow out of.
	You are in the middle of something strong and powerful and it's going to last.
	And that's my worry with high school or with any of these things, since the majority of kids do grow out of dysphoria and they're not old enough to even get the surgeries or to get access to some of these things, specifically state to state, even with hormone therapies, how we can let people who haven't even gone through transition compete with a biological sex, specifically with trans women that they have an advantage over.
	Yeah, so I mean like this comes down to the conversations between doctors and children.
	If you've got like a 17-year-old guy and he's like, you know, I'm going to identify as female this year and go compete with the women's team, probably not good.
	But if you've got a child that since puberty seems to be having some issues that aren't alleviated through anything else besides addressing them as a trans person and working through that vector, then I think there are more legitimate arguments, especially when drugs like puberty blockers become involved for these people to participate in sports that more closely resemble their gender identity.
	I do agree that it is complicated and it is difficult and we need to refine the processes by which we figure out who is trans.
	But I think the issue is that there are a lot of people or there's the possibility that a person in high school might think they're trans, but they're not actually trans.
	But if they are trans, they'll definitely think they're trans.
	So we know that there are people that, especially when puberty is beginning, are going to have these feelings that are never going to go away.
	They're not going to grow out of that.
	And then you've got other people that are maybe depressed, maybe anxious, maybe just whatever normal teen stuff that they will eventually grow out of, as most do.
	And I think what we need to do is we need to create an environment where those types of conversations and that type of support can exist, where we're not constantly accusing everybody of either trying to groom everybody into being trans or we're trying to say everybody needs to not be transcribed in above at all.
	I think creating that safe space for those conversations to happen between the families and the doctors and whatever therapy is necessary is the important part to kind of figure that issue out.
	Because I think, I think, I could be wrong, but I think we'd probably agree if we had like a brain scan device and we could push a button and know 100%, like at 14, you're trans, you're not, you're trans, you're not, then I think the rest of this conversation becomes a lot easier, right?
	Like if we know 100% that you're trans and you're going to be trans forever, things like puberty blockers or hormone replacement therapy is probably less controversial.
	The biggest fear we have is figuring out the children that don't know and we don't know how to pursue it.
	And then people are rightfully, I think, worried that somebody is pushing too hard on either side to either convince somebody that they're trans or say that there's no way they can be trans.
	Yeah, and I do agree that we have that same notion.
	But where I want to point out is since in most states you cannot get access to the puberty blockers, to the cross-sex hormones, without that sort of trilateral communication between parents and doctors and students, that we're heading in a direction to where the state, specifically state-funded schools, are deciding that that safe space, that environment that you talked about that needs to happen is their responsibility.
	And you even have cases where schools are acknowledging kids' pronouns or new names or their new identity without acknowledging or talking to the parents.
	You seem to disagree with that, and you've already stated your premise of the people you'd like involved.
	But I happen to also know that we have a discussion specifically where I'm from in Texas, which is going to be probably fairly unpopular in this room.
	But I see gender dysphoria and the identity disorder or different variations they're working on currently, the APA, as being something to be looked at like schizophrenia, like anorexia, something that should not be affirmed.
	And I get really worried when we talk to youth, specifically the way it's presented, about affirming care, right?
	This status quo, the word affirm to like hold to be true, or we talk about gender confirmation.
	And even allowing or acknowledging or making the precedent to have transgender students join in on sports is sort of a public acknowledgement that we think that kids can declare themselves to be transgender, that they have the medical right to do so.
	And also, this, I believe, creates what I think is Lisa Littman that created the new term, the onset of gender dysphoria.
	The quick onset, she talks about the rapid onset is what it's called, where you create this fake, I guess we call them a narrative, or just it gets transmitted through social media where people start seeing these unique cases of people that are being acknowledged, and you have a proliferation of individuals who are now identifying as transgender without even defining what it is.
	And that's what makes it hard for me to accept any of it, because even when I talk to gender specialists, or even if you look at ancient gender thinkers and philosophers like John Money, et cetera, these people still couldn't define these issues.
	And 50, 60, 70 years later, I feel like we still can't even define what a transgender youth actually is.
	So, where would we actually create that definition?
	Like, where do we draw the line on you are officially transgender, you're not a boy trying to play in girl sports?
	So, I mean, figuring out that line is difficult, but it's possible if we acknowledge that trans people are real.
	Now, there are some people that are going to say that, like, you're not a trans man, you're just a tomboy, or you're not a trans woman, you're just an effeminate male.
	You know, maybe you're gay or something.
	You know, you have people that still make these arguments.
	If we'll put those in another box, maybe discuss that.
	But if we do believe that trans people are real, I think there's a couple of important things that we can say.
	One is that it's going to be noticed around puberty for sure if it doesn't start earlier, because that's when you start to see the biggest changes in your body, and that's when you're really going to start to heighten your dysphoria.
	And then, two, I think it's important to talk about the difference between gender dysphoria versus other things like anorexia or schizophrenia.
	When we talk about things like anorexia or schizophrenia, these are mental illnesses of delusions.
	Like, you are not seeing something accurately, or you're perceiving something that's not there.
	So, for instance, for an anorexic person, if you've known an anorexic person, you can have a person who is, you know, they're 5'7 and they're 85 pounds, and they look in the mirror and they still think they're fat.
	They can still see that, like, I have too much weight, I've got to change something.
	Or schizophrenic people oftentimes can have auditory or visual hallucinations of things that aren't there.
	When it comes to trans people, dysphoria, there isn't a delusion.
	They look in the mirror, they see exactly what they see, they recognize what they see.
	But the problem is they just feel like they're not in the correct body.
	They feel like there's some sort of incongruence between mind and body, but they're able to perceive what exists as it does exist.
	Which is why when you get to when an anorexic person loses weight, they don't feel good.
	They don't like, oh, cool, I hit my goal weight.
	Like, thank God I, you know, I bulimicked myself down to 85 pounds and now I'm good.
	But whereas with a trans person, you know, you can alleviate dysphoria using either drug therapy or surgeries or social transitioning.
	And again, like, there's not like a delusional aspect there.
	They can perceive everything accurately.
	It's just a feeling that they have in their body that they're trying to get to match with what's going on in their head.
	So I agree on your first point that we can actually come and find a standard or at least a medical standard and a social standard to which we can define things.
	I think we'd be privy to actually use the medical standard as our social standard, which we seem to have abandoned.
	But I completely disagree with the premise there that they're not in a delusion.
	Because when you actually look at an anorexic person, right, you're talking about disorder that's an eating disorder.
	It's not exactly the same thing.
	You're correct as mental illness, as schizophrenia.
	There are other delusions that are out there.
	But somebody looking at their body and the way they're born, I mean, I've met, have you met anorexic people?
	I'm sure you have.
	Yeah, of course.
	Yeah, so I have.
	And I know when they look in the mirror, they are skinny, but they see something else there.
	They continually tell you they're fat, they're overweight, right?
	And we even have bulimia nervosa, another disorder where you can't keep your food down and you trigger, and you think you can't keep it down, but you really can.
	And you have an inactive gag reflex and control over it.
	It's very odd thing.
	But when you're talking about this idea, I think this is where everyone begins to disagree on both sides of the argument: is that this disorder is now being treated specifically with words, like I mentioned earlier, of confirmation or affirming that you've even agreed right here that, yeah, they're not delusional.
	This is really who they are.
	But I don't understand with what test, with which function, besides what we have now, which are not necessarily empirical, but are more through the counselatory or psychiatric means that we diagnose people with these things.
	Where can we actually define or point to something to say, yeah, this isn't a delusion.
	You really are that.
	And why do we make a space specifically for this one in particular in regards to any other disorder that exists specifically in the youth?
	I think when it comes to problems of the mind, we kind of have to rely on a lot of self-reporting.
	We don't cut into people's brains to see if they're, I mean, even for schizophrenia.
	There might be some post-mortem tests you can do.
	But you don't cut into brains to see if somebody has depression or GAD or any of ADHD.
	You just kind of have to go by self-reporting.
	And then based on what they say, you treat them.
	And then based on how the treatment goes, you look at the ethics and say, okay, this is good or this is bad.
	It's either working or not working.
	I think when it comes to trans people, you kind of have to do the same thing.
	And I think there's a markedly different way in our approach with them as compared to what we would look at with somebody like anorexia, right?
	If you go to a doctor and you say, hey, I'm anorexic, the reason why they don't affirm that idea is because the idea is a delusion.
	If you tell an anorexic person, like, okay, well, listen, like, if you just lose five more pounds and you hit the gym, it's going to go away.
	That's not going to be the case.
	They can lose as much weight as possible until you literally see the skin hanging off the bones and they're still going to feel like they're overweight.
	Whereas with trans people, we do have a way where if you begin to transition, it does seem like there is a true fact in the mind of what your gender identity is, which for however reasons, whatever happens, it can become divorced from what your body presents as, that if you can bring the body into congruence with the mind, you do actually see a massive alleviation of the dysphoria.
	Whereas I'm not aware of any losing weight or jammer dieting treatments that alleviates issues related to anorexia.
	And I'm not aware of, if I just put out an extra chair and your schizophrenic hallucination could sit there, you'll feel better about it.
	It doesn't seem like affirming these kinds of psychiatric or mental illnesses helps.
	Whereas with trans people, it seems like there is some underlying fact of the matter where if you can bring the body in line with something, you do actually have help there.
	So just to clarify before I comment, when you're acknowledging the fact, you're saying, okay, so treatment improves, which I'll get to in a moment, but you're saying, so then that acknowledges, or you're at least making that an acknowledgement that they are being honest, that they really were born in the wrong body.
	They have the disassociation between the mind, the soul, the spirit, however you want to define it religiously or a religiously and the physical being.
	Is that what you mean?
	I don't know if I would say born in the wrong body.
	Maybe this is something that turns on when you're three or four.
	Maybe, like, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know 100% because even for sexuality, I don't think we know, are you gay or straight at birth, or is that something that develops later on?
	But yeah, I do believe, and I think most trans people, not the ones on Twitter, but I think most trans people in real life would acknowledge that there is like an underlying fact of the matter in your head about the type of gender you are.
	Yeah, I know it's unpopular to say trans people aren't people, but on Twitter nobody's a person, so that's true.
	In fact, Twitter's a crazy place where you see the worst of the world.
	But I find it so strange, though, because when you have obviously, you know, severe cases of struggling with mental illness in a lot of the LGBTQ community for a variety of reasons.
	And I don't even like calling it the community because there's just such a difference between somebody who's asexual.
	I don't know how they got grouped in there.
	Someone's like, hey, you don't like to have sex.
	You're in the group that talks about sex the most.
	That doesn't make any sense.
	And of course, the queerness and all these things are on a different spectrum.
	But we know that there's an issue.
	And the tea Part of this is still a debate, even in the LGBT.
	You even have this idea of these TERFs and different people out there that get their own category when they come against the trans.
	This is a new social movement.
	It's a cross between a real disorder and I would say a fad.
	I think there's a trans fad going on.
	I don't believe there's any larger explanation per se in this.
	I understand, even too, with the gay thing, you know, not necessarily just being a fad, which I do think it partly is, because maybe people couldn't come out of the closet many years ago.
	I'm not being honest.
	People couldn't come out of the closet.
	Maybe more people feel more honest or open to express themselves.
	With the transgender ideology, with this going on, being about, I think in 2017, was the last time I saw the DSM updated on a specific poll that was looked at, you know, about 0.5% of the population above 65 being transgender as the idea of having been diagnosed and receiving some sort of care.
	0.6% in the mid-group and then in the younger group, which I think was under 21, was the 0.7%.
	That has been just changed drastically.
	I said it's doubled or tripled in the last few years.
	It fascinates me, though, that with the suicide attempt rate being so significantly higher in the trans group at around 41%, some people say it's above 50%, some below 30%.
	Everyone's got their own study.
	But in the average population, the best I could find was about 4% in the average population, which I'm sure some people here have attempted suicide.
	But when I looked at the numbers of once people had received gender-affirming care, I looked at some sources, including Heritage, which could be biased, and try to look at Human Rights Watch and a few others that were trying to explain, which is very hard on Google, by the way, to, or any search engine or even any book, to really find accurate data, information, or studies that tell you how many people are killing themselves after receiving the full transsexual change into the opposite gender.
	And I mean that genuinely, it is very hard to find reliable information.
	Why?
	Because it's a new and emerging trait.
	And also, this transition, for lack of better words, to believing in these words affirming and confirmation.
	This is the holistic approach, the endocrinologist society and whatnot coming together and choosing this is in the last decade at least.
	So what I did find, though, is that still there's about like a 19 times higher risk even after surgery towards self-harm, number one.
	I couldn't conflate that with suicide, but it looked like the rates were somewhere around there.
	If this was the path forward and this is really what we need to do to change and to help these people, why A, are we not doing something about this becoming more popular?
	Because if it's such a volatile situation and lifestyle to live in that leads to so much self-harm, why aren't we trying to contain this disorder or this issue like we would with something else?
	Can we?
	And then B, if that really was the answer, why does it seem like the instability, the mental health, and the suicide attempts are still so much higher than the general population?
	So there's two parts to this.
	So for the first one, I think if anybody is honest, there is a bit of like kind of like the trans fad stuff going on.
	This is kind of when I have these conversations, I implore people to draw a distinction between two groups of people.
	Some people would call this position transmedicalist.
	Maybe, maybe not.
	But like, I think you have trans people that experience dysphoria to some level, and then you have non-dysphoric trans people.
	Now, in that category of trans people that have dysphoria, I think that the path forward is a lot more straightforward.
	Your life is going to take a path where you hopefully are trying to alleviate your dysphoria using social transitioning, medical transitioning.
	For the non-dysphoric people, I think we end up in kind of a different world where people are identifying as trans, but maybe they don't feel like they have dysphoria.
	They don't want to transition or whatever.
	I kind of put them to the side, and that's kind of like a different conversation.
	If I see that the number of people that identify as trans has gone up to like 2.6% or whatever, I think what I'd be more worried about, and I'm glad you're honest about this, and I'll be honest about this on my end, that the data is really hard to come by because all of this is incredibly new and the comparisons are very difficult.
	If you're getting a bunch of people that say, like, you know, like, I've got a nose-piercing and blue hair, and I'm a non-binary trans, who cares?
	Like, if people aren't getting drugs, they're college kids, no offense to any of you guys, but like, college kids are insane.
	They've always been insane.
	The difference is now they have social media, so now everybody sees their insanity, and it's just a whole other world out there.
	But yeah, I mean, let people explore their identities, do that.
	Most of them will probably grow out of it.
	So putting that aside, if we acknowledge that there is some group of like, of actually dysphoric people, when you look at the medical side of things, one of the difficult things about studying like post- and pre-transition trans people is there's a couple of things.
	One is sometimes people use studies inappropriately.
	So I know there was a common one.
	I wish I could remember the author name, but Ben Shapiro used to say this at college all the time.
	And one of the ladies, one of the researchers on that project came out and explained, like, hey, this study was never supposed to compare like post-transitioning people to another group of people to see if there was actually a lot of efficacy in the treatment.
	The study was analyzing something different.
	The tables are being used inappropriately, et cetera, et cetera.
	Another complaint that I've heard when it comes to some of the transitioning studies is when you're looking at people that have gone through a lot of transitioning versus not, sometimes you're looking at the people that are the most dysphoric.
	So the idea that they're going to also still be at elevated rates of suicidality, even post-transition, kind of makes sense.
	It's kind of like the argument of like, every time I see a like a, every time I see a fire truck, there seems to be a house on fire.
	Like, what are they doing?
	You know, and it's, well, obviously the fire truck goes where the fire is.
	And when it comes to like people that are seeking gender-affirming surgery or gender-affirming care, these are probably the people that are the most dysphoric, so some of the numbers will be elevated.
	I do agree that we still need to collect more data.
	As you've said, all of this stuff is incredibly new.
	I would also agree, well, you didn't say this, but I know you believe this.
	I would definitely agree that there is a lack of honesty sometimes with people on the left where it seems like there's this rampant obsession with affirmation without taking a step back to question things sometimes, which I think does a disservice to the medical ideas, to the community at large, and to trans people themselves.
	So yeah, I would hope, as I said in the beginning, I think the goal is to create an environment where you can have better conversations about these things where we can question some of the data coming out.
	Is this appropriate?
	Is this the best thing?
	While also still having an open mind that maybe these are good things to do, maybe we can help people in this way.
	Even though you don't believe that there's enough data to prove that transitioning helps, do you think people should still be allowed to do it?
	Well, I think the question of specifically with adults of having the access or the ability to do certain things brings up a number of questions.
	I think we really have to make that distinction between children and adults.
	And in this case, I'll just reference people that are older than 18 that have the right to vote.
	For some reason, don't have the right to drink.
	You can die for your country, but you can't get drunk in it.
	It is an interesting position that we're in.
	And I don't even think we can agree.
	People don't know.
	We don't even have very many universal even alcohol laws, right?
	Some of the ways that states are putting in 21 to drink is simply based on the federal government withholding provisions and tax dollars for road projects, and they just want the road money.
	And so they just make this arbitrary age, and then we don't have a discussion, and we all just drink at 21, right?
	None of you guys drank before 21.
	You're in college.
	You never did before, right?
	Police are here.
	Don't worry, officers.
	No, but so we've had this before, where we just create these categories, we live by them, we accept them as truth, we don't debate them, and then now we live in this society that's defined by them.
	And I think trans is at the precipice of where we need to begin to argue.
	Because I don't believe, and I'll say this confidently, I don't believe the trans identity is real in the same way that I don't believe in an anorexic identity.
	I don't think identifying as trans is doing anything but a disservice to people.
	Only because when we detach ourselves into the metaphysical or into the psychological in a society that can't even agree on God into letting people define what their sex is, when we say things like gender and sex are separated and gender is a social construct, that statement itself is a social construct.
	And then I have the power to redefine that construct myself.
	It takes away, it creates a node of disruption.
	It takes away cohesiveness in a society.
	And what it does is it creates confusion, as we're seeing now as they start to teach young kids, that there is some sort of third alternative option, that trans is not a disorder or it's not an abnormality, just like any sort of abnormality of the mind.
	But this becomes sort of an option that is out there, which I think can be credited with part of the rise of the popularity.
	I've seen when people come out as trans, they get cheered.
	I mean, you can watch even videos on Twitter.
	You can see classroom stories.
	You can see, I think, what was that one classroom?
	That three-fourths of the students came out as LGBTQ to the teacher at the same time.
	Very, very strange occurrences of even certain schools, certain cities, certain areas having higher prevalence of these disorders when somebody comes out, et cetera.
	So I don't believe that affirming this or confirming this does anything but creates problems for society and for the individual.
	I don't know, I'm not going to claim to say that I am a physician and that I have the best alternative option.
	And you could even argue, if you want to, that as of right now, this sort of care is the best care we have.
	But if this isn't political, if this isn't some sort of a movement or a social pressure, then why would we ever use these words like confirm and affirm?
	And rather than just like treatment or this, a way to actually deal with something or lower their risk or taking away their ability to kill themselves at a higher rate type of thing.
	It seems so influenced by politics, by the social movement, that it's hard to take it seriously.
	Plus, these gender clinics and these societies, this is what's dangerous to me, have sort of popped up with these new treatments rather recently.
	And a lot of amazing parents that I feel bad for and doctors, like you said in that agreement, come together.
	They look to the research, they look to these societies, which I believe are heavily biased politically.
	And I don't believe they're following true and honest, long-term, long-form science, and they're overconfidently speaking on what they think they know.
	That I don't believe the parents and the doctors are evil in trying to hurt these trans kids or even these adults who might make decisions without their parents.
	I just don't believe that the doctors realize that there is a political movement outside of this.
	And I don't think the current procedure or current treatment is the best form for it, specifically with the high rate of suicide that's continued and also the fact that more and more people now, as they see this, are identifying as trans.
	I find that to be an alarming part of the country.
	2.3% is very high.
	Yeah, since a lot of people, I saw a study that showed Gen Z has the most people who are coming out as gay, transgender, and all the LGBT categories.
	This is something I've noticed too as a young person that it's in college classrooms, it's in high schools, and maybe younger.
	I can't speak to that, but I've heard people say in Florida, that's why they did this don't say gay bill.
	Do you think this is something that should be taught or talked about in schools?
	And if so, when and where?
	Hello, test test.
	Hello, hello.
	Can I respond to some of what he said as well and then take that question?
	Can I respond to what he said on the second?
	Yeah, okay.
	So I think that something that gets lost when we have these conversations, I'm assuming you're non-trans.
	Maybe.
	Okay.
	I'm non-trans.
	I think sometimes when we have these discussions, it's very easy to have this very cold, dispassionate, like, where do trans people fit in?
	How do we figure this out?
	What are we allowing in schools?
	I think for me, it's important to take a step back and figure out, okay, well, what are we talking about?
	And it's like purest essence, there's a group of people in the country, in the world, that seem to have some issue going on that has to be addressed.
	It requires something.
	Otherwise, these people are basically condemned to suffer a great deal of harm for the rest of their lives.
	So this is like at the root of everything we're dealing with.
	There's some group of people that, regardless of how we feel about them or how we want to push them under the rug or how we're going to treat them, they're going to be suffering to some case for their entire life if they don't get treatment.
	So then the next question becomes: if you believe that we should be creating a society that helps and serves the most people, what can we do for these people?
	So that's like the lens through which I view all of these things.
	Even if some of these things become political, even if there are social pressures, even if whatever, at the end of the day, we have to remember there are actual real people that we're talking about.
	There are real lives that are impacted by this.
	And we should be making some effort to accommodate, I would hope, as many people in society as possible.
	You mentioned this idea that it's uncomfortable there's this differentiation between sex and gender.
	I would argue that that differentiation has always existed.
	We're just not always cognizant of it because we just assume it's not.
	There's always this popular talking point where conservatives will say, well, what is a woman?
	What is a man?
	And if you're trying to be honest, okay, well, women excess chromosomes, they didn't have reproductive organs, blah, blah, blah.
	And you can give this very scientific answer.
	But if I were to ask you, is that a woman or is that a man?
	You don't know anybody's genes.
	You can't point to anybody's chromosomes.
	You don't even know their genitals oftentimes, right?
	There's actually a ton of social signaling that we interpret to figure out, they've got long hair, they've got shaved legs, they wear a certain outfit, what their name is.
	And none of these things are scientifically hardwired to be like, that is a sex or that is a gender.
	So I think that we've always kind of been moving around our understanding of gender.
	I grew up, I was born in 88, and I know that conservative parents were freaking out when white people started to wear jewelry on their earrings, and Sync Backstreet Boys.
	Unforgivable sin.
	Yeah, people started to get very upset about that.
	Conservatives got very upset about that.
	Kids started to get longer hair.
	Can you be a man and have long hair?
	So in terms of what is a man, what is a woman, for gender presentation, expression, these are things that I think are always moving in society, and they probably always will be.
	Would you think they're linked, though?
	I mean, do you think the arguments that were made by radical feminists in the 80s and 90s and onward of this gender identity, we have study departments, I'm not sure if they have it here, but in this whole exclusionary look at gender outside of sex, knowing that, of course, the variations can exist.
	People can be more feminine, more masculine, et cetera, but that there is still this link between your genetics, understanding not just your autosomes, but your sex chromosomes help.
	It would be an idiot to say that they're not linked at all, obviously.
	And it seems like the vast majority of people, maybe going by your numbers, 99.3% of these people, sex and gender link up directly, and that your gender identity, what you feel inside, matches exactly, hopefully, the way that you express yourself.
	But it seems to be the case that there is a fact of the matter that some people have an incongruence for some reason.
	Now, whether that's environmental, whether that happens because your mom fred you out of the wrong breast or whatever, who knows what causes it, but at some point, it seems like people can develop this idea that they are in the wrong body.
	And the question goes back to what I said fundamentally: well, what do we do with these people?
	Because now they're suffering, and now there's going to be a great deal of harm if you don't alleviate these issues.
	We've tried conversion therapy for decades.
	It doesn't seem to work.
	We tried conversion therapy for gay people.
	Didn't seem to work.
	I think that that's another thing that when you bring up this idea between like, do we affirm things or how do we treat them?
	For a long time, people thought that being homosexual was like a type of delusion or a type of sin.
	Like if you're around the right people, you can turn back straight.
	If we put you in a certain camps, you can turn back straight.
	But I mean, it doesn't work, right?
	You can't take a straight person to make them gay any more than you could take a gay person and make them straight.
	So I don't see us having the same criticism where we're like, we have to stop affirming gay people with a delusion that they can like men.
	It seems like gay men like men, and that doesn't seem to be a delusion.
	It seems to be an accurate representation of what's going on, much the same way that I would say a trans person seems to accurately understand that for whatever reason, the gender that exists in their brain doesn't seem to be the same one that is expressed sexually in their body.
	I do agree again with what you said about there is a higher prevalence of people identifying on trans.
	I think ContraPoints calls, I think she refers to this as trans trenders, I think is the word she uses.
	And again, there is that weird culture, but I would take a step further and say like, I don't really care as much, whatever people identify as a college, like who's getting surgeries, who's detransitioning, like what are the real on-the-ground stats?
	I think that's more important than obsessing over whatever the fat is today for college kids.
	Or more importantly, if we are going to look at that and understand that, okay, maybe there's a problem there, we can't use that problem to then throw all the actual trans people that require some sort of medical or social intervention under the bus.
	Because it's not fair that some group of lunatics on a college campus can cause actual real measurable harm to other people just because we don't want to have the intellectual honesty to take a look at the two different groups of people.
	And then you asked me a question related to.
	What I was specifically asking about is since this is something that's so controversial that people should be able to do.
	Oh, when should they be caught in schools?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Like, that's always a hard question because it really depends on what the context of the conversation is.
	Like, I think that kids in schools should know what a gay person is, what a trans person is, and what a straight person is.
	Like, probably by grade three, four, or five.
	But that doesn't mean that we should be having conversations with children about like, you know, this is how gay men have sex.
	Or if you want to be trans, these are the drugs that you need to take.
	You know, we have to have some awareness of the reality about us.
	But I think that it's hard to make like a blanket rule saying, should we have these conversations or shouldn't we have these conversations?
	Because I can think of a lot of ways to appropriately have the conversations.
	And I can think of a lot of ways to inappropriately have the conversations.
	Yeah.
	Obviously, you guys know that the main battlefront has been happening in Texas and in Florida, but there's about like 18 other states that have been introducing similar bills, most recently Oklahoma, about when to talk to kids, not only about sexuality, but also about this idea about being transgender.
	And I think what's really interesting, when you said talking to people about this, you know, there's the ancient Jesuit motto.
	I think they attribute it to Voltaire about give me a child for his first seven years and I'll show you the man.
	For lack of better words, my philosophers and people out there, there's this understanding you have a formative portion of your life to where what you are told and what happens to you greatly affects you.
	There are people in this room statistically who were probably molested before they were seven years old.
	And there's been proven to be all sorts of issues that can come from sexual trauma, abuse, and even not just sexual, but physical abuse at a very young age.
	And you don't really talk about it.
	You don't know what's going on.
	You're kind of confused.
	Why?
	Because it's hard to make sense of things.
	And many people even talk about they don't even realize they were sexually abused until they become much older.
	And you look back, you go, oh my gosh, I blacked out what happened in the back of my head.
	Even physical abuse and teenagers' experiences, even in relationships, forgetting how toxic things actually are.
	We see that in abuse.
	Shout out to Johnny Depp.
	But as you move forward in this argument, I find with the transgender idea to be it's so grave with children because I consider it to be absolutely a grave mental disorder that looks like it's contagious.
	And we can make fun words like trans trender, which I do think is quite amazing hashtag.
	But when you go with it, I mean, the fact that kids are identifying as this, and in some states there have been access, even in Plano 2, which is as they say this didn't happen, but I've seen the clinic and I've looked into this and I've seen enough evidence to show that they were performing mastectomies even on 13 year olds, that we have moved the argument from adults, which is why I don't want to stay there, from adults into children.
	Do I think that adults should be allowed to get transgender surgery?
	In a just and in real world, I believe it's mutilation, and I don't think that that should be something healthcare providers just provide to people.
	I don't think you should cut off people's toes.
	I think it goes against the Hippocratic oath.
	I would say if you have the evidence that it's saving lives and long term, we see something like that is happening, we can have another discussion.
	But in the meantime, with children, what worries me so much is that to your first point, when we actually believe that parents aren't talking to kids, when teachers in schools believe that doctors are not faithfully talking to their children, that the state has come in and thought it's their right.
	And maybe it's not the school itself, but there are crazy teachers.
	And you can find videos all over TikTok specifically.
	They're so proliferated, there are accounts dedicated to them of teachers talking to their kids about their gender identity, about their sexuality, and at a very, very young age.
	And when you look at sexual development in children, most researchers agree that the formative development of puberty is probably around 10 on average, starting with at least height growth.
	But it can start as young as seven, and there are some people that it can start astronomically later, like 14, 15, 16.
	And so the bills that we currently have in place right now, specifically like in Texas or in Florida, are really targeting those years right before sexual development begins, saying it is not the time when a kid doesn't even get horny or is not trying to have sex or is not trying to develop sexually that we force that upon them.
	And I think that's where people misconstrue the bills themselves.
	I believe most of them are right now.
	We're up to like K through third grade approximately, or approximately nine years old.
	The actual scientific agreement of right before there is a standard line that we can agree that people might be ready for these conversations.
	But I also believe these conversations with students without parents' intervention, without letting them know, does violate their rights as parents.
	And it also makes me nervous too of why are we even having conversations about talking to kids about these things?
	I did read a study that was talking about, well, kids masturbate at six months old.
	I was like, damn, people are weird.
	But that is not masturbation, right?
	Kids stimulate themselves.
	They'll touch their private areas.
	That's due to a variety of reasons.
	That could just be due to sensation.
	That could be due to rebellion.
	If you're told, don't touch your no-no parts, et cetera.
	But we do have already the research of showing when there is a good time that kids might be ready.
	But we still can't get a universal age.
	And so a lot of that does have to be left up to the parents.
	And I don't know why companies like Disney step in and have thought that it's their job, as they said, that they want over half of their content to include LGBTQ characters.
	They're not just saying people who happen to be gay, as with Lightyear, the new movie, they wanted, you know, specifically a kissing scene originally.
	And they talked about how Bob Iger, the original CEO, kept cutting things out.
	Like there's a push to push more of the contact, the sexual intimacy, the sexual side of this, not just their existence, but the side that I don't think kids should be learning.
	And again, maybe we agree on this, but I don't know what the hell we're even doing having a discussion nationally.
	I don't know why we haven't figured this out yet.
	Yeah, so I'm going to borrow, I'm going to borrow a good argument I heard in a classroom about 30 minutes ago from you, actually.
	Something that I think that I think we agree that a lot of these bills show down is there's been like a big breakdown in how parents communicate with their children about what goes on in school.
	The idea that like the state is passing legislation to dictate curriculum, it doesn't seem to be like I understand that the education system kind of derives its power from the state, but I feel like these are conversations that should happen with school boards.
	Like everybody that has a kid knows that these emails go out, that you have school board meetings, everybody's welcome to show up, and then in these school board meetings, you can have conversations with the teachers about what you feel like is appropriate or not appropriate conversations for your kids.
	I feel like that's the appropriate area to have those conversations.
	Feels kind of strange that you would create legislation at the state level to try to dictate what the curriculum should be.
	I feel like that's not in the purview of that, that legislative body shouldn't be involved in that.
	And then what's more, we go a little bit to the side of that, the idea that this opens up like so many schools to potentially tons of lawsuits over parents feeling like, I don't like that you mentioned that this author was gay, or I don't like that you know taught this play or whatever, and now I'm going to sue the school.
	I think kind of creates a weird effect where teachers don't know what they can even teach without potentially bringing legal burden onto the school.
	I think it's kind of a scary precedent.
	When we talk about formative years of children, I'm not aware of any like, I know that if you get sexually harassed at an early age, actually, actually, that's not even true.
	The idea that the majority of people that abused children were abused at an early age, even that isn't true.
	I don't think you can turn people gay or turn people trans just because they have something that happens early on in life.
	That's the point I was making.
	I meant trauma.
	I didn't mean they turned gay or trans.
	I meant we know that there's formative years of development where if inappropriate sexual contact or something can happen between adults, it can cause a slew of problems, including just relational problems.
	It doesn't have to be sexual.
	But are we saying instruction in a classroom rises to that level of inducing trauma in children?
	Well, I think that you can put a correlation between the fact of when, it depends to what level you're talking about and at what age.
	Because I think when you talk about, okay, yeah, if you're telling a kid that gay people exist, specifically an author of a book, right?
	If some kid asks, hey, why is the people kissing in the book or whatever?
	That's a whole different discussion of why that book's in the classroom if parents agree with that.
	But the idea of having specific legislation of teaching kids, and I've seen some curriculum that's existed in certain schools that even uses math to try to explain complex sexual and gender ideas, I'm saying that I believe that kids are going through a stage of development where it's very important to keep the dimorphic view of men and women, the dimorphic view of humanity, that there are men and women that even if kind of keeping procreation out of this, that there is a specific way that boys are and that girls are and that you can develop.
	Creating alternate options and roads and starting to confuse people at a young age, to me, is not the same thing as, like I mentioned, physical abuse.
	I would even put verbal abuse out there too, or any form.
	But I find this as a form of sexual verbal abuse by introducing ideas that someone is not only not ready to comprehend, but if you do it without their parents' knowledge, which some teachers have been caught, including one, I believe, got released from the school today, or maybe it was yesterday, New York Post reported for teaching kids about what it means to be pansexual and how she's a pansexual, even though she's married to a man and she ended up getting let go on leave in March and then got released in Florida today.
	I might be wrong on the date, but you can look.
	I just saw the story yesterday or today.
	It does strike me as interesting, though, that if we see other forms of confusion or things that happen outside of the parents' knowledge that can cause problems, again, because parents need to explain things to kids, there needs to be that cooperative nature of raising the child, of helping them make sense of the world, helping them discover where pain or issues might be, that somehow teachers and schools have thought that it is their right to come in.
	And that's where I question maybe states did come in, not only for the aforementioned reason I told you where some of the very rich white people don't want to be effed around with, and so they start at the state and teach people the lessons that they don't like, the unions.
	But it's also realizing that, you know, if we open the door to start talking to kids about this kind of stuff, it does seem a little bit like grooming or opening kids up to try to teach them a certain way around the world that parents probably disagree with.
	And I would say it's not good to teach a kid under nine years old.
	I mean, so I wholly reject the concept of that this has anything to do with grooming.
	I think that it's okay to be teaching children that like a world exists and these are the types of people that exist in that world.
	But it's going to come down a lot to the types of conversations that are being had.
	Like the double standards are strange sometimes.
	And I understand why, but like, for instance, if we were to talk about certain sexual behaviors between a teacher and their gay partner, that would be very not okay.
	But if we were to say like a teacher is saying like, oh yeah, like you know, me and my husband are trying to have a kid, which is implying a lot of certain types of sexual acts, like that kind of conversation is okay.
	It's a very confusing territory to figure out like what kind of conversations are okay, what aren't, which is why I like the idea of school boards and parents and teachers coming together and having these conversations and not some very huge monolithic legislation that's passed on the state level that's trying to figure it out for every single school and then create like a private cause of action for any parent that feels like they've been slighted to sue the school instead of going to the school board and having these conversations.
	I also think to some extent it's like you're it's so weird because I feel like when I grew up in in the 90s and then in the early 2000s it felt like we were trying to radically expand kind of what each gender could do, which I thought was really cool.
	You had women that could be tomboys.
	You had men that could wear earrings or go and design fashion or whatever.
	Like it seemed like we could do more and more and more things.
	And one of the criticisms that I have of sometimes very far left leaning people is that it feels like they want to make a new category for every single thing.
	Like you have like a different type of like trans femme, you know, non-binary male lesbian identity for this person.
	You've got like some type of thing for this person.
	I was like, well, why can't we just have like expanded categories for everybody?
	And then it feels like conservatives are also kind of making a similar argument on the other side too, where it's like, well, no, we need to have this strict dichotomy that men can be men and women are women and this is how they act.
	And I don't think that that's necessarily true either.
	Like this idea that like, no offense, man, like if you grew up as a girl, you're like, your toys sucked.
	They just sucked.
	They were horrible.
	You had like boring Barbies in these houses, and kids had like these cool, like you had all these different types of building blocks, all these little engineering kits.
	Like it just, it felt like when you watch how people interact in society based on what they're told they're allowed to do, I think you can follow the genders and what they do in society just based on how that instruction in school works.
	So like one example of this is if we look at women and men's participation across like legal fields, medical fields.
	There was one other one, and then computer science fields, we can see that, you know, originally people might think that, oh, well, women suck at law, women suck at medicine, they can't do this.
	But as the decades went on, women started to reach parity and in some places exceeded parity, outperforming men in a lot of these places in school where it was previously thought unpossible.
	The one area that this hasn't changed yet and isn't really budging is comp sci and software engineering, anything having to do with computers.
	And some people point to the reason for this being is because, well, if you're a young boy, you're told that you can play with video games.
	And if you're a girl, you're told that that's not part of being a girl.
	You can't play with video games.
	So when you get these people that go to college, women want to go into CompSci and they're sitting across from men that have been playing with computers their entire lives.
	They're hopelessly behind and they're never going to catch up.
	And a lot of them will just drop out like year one because they feel like they're totally excluded from the area.
	So circling back to this idea that I don't think we need to have in school this like rigid set of like, you know, we have to teach the dichotomy between men and women and what boys and girls do.
	Like I think you can have a general education area where you talk to kids about a bunch of stuff.
	The goal isn't to indoctrinate them, but to like expose them to things.
	And then it's your job as a parent to talk to those children about what they're talking to their teachers about.
	Without revealing too much, I'm the parent of an 11-year-old.
	I'm sure there are a lot of parents.
	Well, actually, no, there aren't any parents in here, I guess.
	Most of you guys are college kids.
	But you talk about the- Yeah, sure.
	Okay, well, a lot of you guys were kids.
	Like, the worst things that you were indoctrinated with in school weren't from teachers.
	It was from that one crazy friend that bought either the magazine or for you guys, I guess they're bringing cell phones with like crazy links to horrible sites or whatever.
	Like, when your kid comes home and he's talking, you know, some crazy shit, it's not because a teacher said it.
	It's probably because he learned it from his group of friends.
	And there you have actually, like, no accountability because you have no idea what they're talking about, unless hopefully, you know, either you're communicating with your kid or, you know, something gets leaked, I guess, to the principal.
	But to summarize, like, I think that there is an important conversation that needs to happen between parents and children.
	I think that is essential.
	But I don't think we need to ultra restrict schools.
	They can only teach these certain things.
	And if a three-year-old hears that somebody is gay, it's going to ruin them for life.
	I don't agree that that's grooming.
	I don't think it's going to damage them.
	I think you can talk to your kid about what's going on.
	And I think everything will be okay.
	Do you want to respond to something real fast?
	So I think we are kind of talking about the same thing and also something very different.
	I think where the concerns come, and I'm not going to go into critical race theory, but we mentioned this earlier, that the biggest crime that we've seen with all of these disagreements is that parents woke up during the pandemic that the state has interests, perhaps, that are outside of their own personal interests for their kids.
	And maybe you have to parent your children.
	Maybe the state wasn't there for a daycare system.
	School was meant for education.
	Even teachers would agree.
	Many of them feel more like babysitters than they do feel like actual educators.
	It's a huge reason why there's a fallout because there's so much rebellion.
	There's so much mischief that goes on.
	And there's a lack of respect even for authority.
	That seems to be a universal national issue.
	Parents somehow woke up and went, oh crap, I've got to be a parent.
	My kids are being homeschooled.
	I didn't even know what they were learning.
	I didn't realize it's kind of math that they were learning.
	I didn't realize that they were talking about these kinds of things because for some reason I thought the school system hadn't changed in 40 years, but it did.
	And parents woke up and they're concerned because the world they grew up in is not the world that's currently under place.
	And what I've seen to be the biggest concern, though, about this before we move on is that it's the way that conversations are expressed universally, specifically federally, and even at the state level, which is why they might be changing at the state level, that make you think that's what your kids are being taught.
	And even if you say they're anomalies or you see these rare instances of teachers being caught talking about certain things or referencing them, the reason why I know some parents get nervous is because, yeah, I don't think you tell a kid about being gay, the gays exist.
	Oh, then you're going to become a homosexual.
	But, you know, I was reading a study about transgenderism in the youth.
	This was a while ago, back in like 2017.
	And in the same study, it was talking about the proliferation actually of homosexuality and of incest in youth.
	And it was talking about specifically that when kids are experimenting sexually before they have the foreknowledge of what sex actually is, they oftentimes interact with each other based on who they play with.
	And so it's not that they're incestual and they're sexually attracted to siblings or that they're homosexuals.
	In fact, it was close to 99% of homosexual interactions before puberty, they grow up to be heterosexual.
	And there isn't this understanding that you're going to be gay even because you touched another man or a girl touched a girl, et cetera, or that you're a rapist because you grabbed a girl's boob when you were four.
	But when the topics are presented, and this is what makes me nervous, is how they are when I'm an adult and I already see, I mean, Google is the worst search engine ever.
	It's like a propaganda farm.
	I mean, you can type one thing in the opposite shows, even with gender, I'll be like, hey, the problems with this hormone or the problems with this type of therapy.
	And you get the opposite.
	Everything's about affirming with transgender specifically.
	And so when I look at this, I go, well, when a kid is, let's say a kid is six and he is doing something homosexual, and he's being told, like, yeah, and if you touch other boys, that makes you gay, right?
	That could be confusing to a kid who otherwise would be straight.
	Not that he's going to necessarily become gay, but it does create an alternative voice or influence, which I think is what's scary is not knowing how it's going to be put into place.
	And I think parents are scared.
	I use that word because I've watched school board meetings many times and they seem frightened of how it's being portrayed.
	So it's like a social contract of just saying, well, let's not hit on these topics until the school can acknowledge to the parents this is the age we're talking at this level.
	Here's the curriculum if you want to look it over.
	And obviously, we can't stop your kids from being around bad influences.
	That's your job.
	And I hope parents play the role too.
	And it does make me angry that everyone blames the schools when it's like, well, you have to be a parent too.
	Yeah, I mean, I can, real quick, I can half agree with you.
	Like, I don't think that it's a teacher's place to try to create sexual identities for children or to suggest that maybe their sexual identity might be something.
	Say for acknowledging that things exist.
	Yeah, I would agree that those conversations shouldn't be happening.
	I will say that it's hard for me to imagine, unless you're totally divorced from everything your child is doing.
	And maybe I'm projecting, or maybe I had a crazy, you know, growing up for school that I've been, sometimes you had crazy teachers, man.
	You have teachers that say some crazy shit.
	You have teachers that are doing inappropriate stuff.
	Like it happens.
	And I don't want to say that that's how life was, but I mean, like, the ideal is that you talk to your friends about it.
	Maybe you go home and you talk to your parents about it.
	And then you have these conversations with your children and you're involved in it.
	And I guess one of the worries that I have on the other end is you get these parents that are like, we want to shut down all of these conversations.
	And the goal isn't that they really want to shut down that conversation so they could have it with their kid.
	The goal is that they want to shut down that conversation so the kid never has that conversation.
	The goal isn't I want to expose them to these ideas in an appropriate setting.
	It's I don't want them ever exposed to these ideas.
	You know, when I still hear stories about girls that have periods in school that have never been told by their moms that like, hey, this is something to be expected, it makes me a little bit less sympathetic towards that point of view.
	But then I guess ultimately it depends on the parents at the end of the day for how they want to address their child's education.
	All right, we're going to move on to QA next.
	But first, we're going to have closing statements.
	So, Destiny, you can start.
	What am I closing on?
	I think that, like, when we talk about trans people, the thing that frustrates me the most is that, like, to go back to the fundamental ideas, there's a group of people that are harmed in this country when we take the most ridiculous positions, we wrap them all together, and then we get rid of all of them.
	You know, much the same way that people try to do it with gay people, saying that, like, well, gay people are just a bunch of child molesters, you know, they're just a bunch of old guys who want to go over boys.
	When we try to classify everybody as this particular thing, I think we lose a lot of the actual people that need help and need care and need the kind of support that they deserve to have in society, in a liberal society, where we try to help as many people as we can.
	I do agree that there are problems.
	I just wish that when problems existed, we had like an analytic approach to it.
	We said, you know, here's something.
	Maybe these gender-affirming care clinics are a little bit too zealous, overzealous.
	I would probably agree with that, but that doesn't mean we just get rid of all of them.
	It means, you know, we tweak it, we fix it, and we move forward.
	And yeah, I think my general guiding thing on most of these conversations related to trans people is: I acknowledge there are problems, I acknowledge there are weird things.
	We should keep trying to tweak it, and we should acknowledge that at the end of the day, there is some group of people that hopefully, as a society, we can accommodate in ways that they can live happier and healthier lives.
	And I also thank you for that.
	I think that we live in a society that has become too focused on minorities and has abandoned the majority.
	In fact, I think we've moved in a process of demonizing the majority, specifically straight people, white people, that there's this sort of collective guilt that they need to atone for while we work on helping these minorities who have been pushed down either by race or sexual orientation or religion.
	It's the same way you see even on social media when people put Christian posts, there is some sort of fight on Twitter, you put an Islamic post.
	I think back in 2001, it would have been different, but today this seems to be a little bit of respect or an understanding of what's going on.
	We choose sanctimoniously of what issues we care about.
	And I think as transgenderism, gender dysphoria, gender identity disorder before the last year, or 10 years, I should say, was still a thing.
	And it was even in 2013, right?
	In the DSM-5, stated to be a real identity or something that was a disorder.
	But now it's become sort of a hallmark or a new avenue that I think young people think is an alternative.
	Whether or not that's being directly taught in curriculum, socially, this is alarming to me that people think that there is a third alternative to male and female.
	I believe this creates a node of disruption that, just like a current of electricity, it does not require 12 cuts in order to disrupt the flow.
	It requires one strategic place to disrupt everything.
	And when you create confusion, I believe this is a cultural attack to not only disrupt the family, but when people are confused sexually, when they are confused by their gender, when people cannot agree, it creates social division.
	It makes people incapable of developing to become people ready to be parents or family members.
	I think the 90s was like the last generation that kind of grew up all right.
	I'll give you guys all a pass in here.
	But ultimately speaking, I think transgenderism has become a religious social focus and a way towards enlightenment or restitution from your sins in the world.
	Even you see people switching from gay to non-binary to trans, et cetera.
	If it really is a medical issue, if it really is a disorder, then it should be treated as such.
	The conversation of anyone who is trying to make it an emotional conversation, trying to make it a political conversation, or trying to make it any type of just movement beyond the medical definition and how we treat people like patients and what's the best path forward for them should be excluded from it entirely.
	And I think if we look at it simply medically and we treat those patients as people who are ill, who have something wrong, and rather than affirming it, we try to find an alternative mode to fix it and not rush the gun on the moment.
	Then I think we'll have a brighter and a better future and they may actually live longer and we may fix some of the issues with suicide and self-harm.
	And lastly, I do want to say that I believe that the move of transgenderism into children with the introduction of hormones and of puberty blockers and even of surgery in some places, I believe is child abuse.
	I believe it is mutilation.
	And we do a disservice by using incorrect words like affirmation and confirmation, which already show bias.
	Thank you guys.
	Let's all give a round of applause for both our debaters here.
	And we're going to start the Q&A session.
	We have about 20 minutes roughly, so please keep your questions fairly short.
	You could line up right here if you want to ask a question.
	We will have somebody here hold the mic, and then you can ask a question.
	I'm going to go deep with this one just because I feel like the topic requires it.
	And I heard a quote, a biblical quote from Jordan Peterson.
	He said that the meek shall inherit the earth is a bad interpretation.
	It's really, it should be that those that are willing and able to carry a sword shall inherit, or those that are willing and able to carry a sword but choose not to use it shall inherit the earth.
	Meaning that you need to be strong.
	You need to be basically a very strong, powerful individual.
	Learn how to control it.
	This topic is really about, you know, separating it from genetic abnormalities, talking about basically cutting off genitals of individuals.
	This is like a very evil thing.
	It seems like it's time to whip out the sword and not to cut off genitals, but to maybe be a little bit more aggressive fighting the left.
	How do you have polite conversations when you think this is such an evil thing?
	And what do you think is going to be done about it?
	It seems like this is being raised by women, like women in school board meetings.
	Cowardly men are doing nothing about this.
	What do you think that the men in our country can do?
	You're looking at me, this is for me, specifically?
	You, both of you.
	Okay, great.
	Well, I'll start on that.
	Number one, I appreciate your question, and I do understand the issue of urgency.
	Back in January, people believed that the election in 2020 was stolen, if we remember this, and they went to go do something about it.
	And the repercussions from that were not well thought through.
	I was there, yes.
	People always like to point out I was in Nancy Pelosi's office.
	That's true.
	But I was.
	That's true.
	But I always, but it's called a press pass from the Capitol building.
	That's true.
	So I was there, and I witnessed firsthand people trying to take action to do something on something they believed.
	And obviously something so serious as an election is another good example.
	If you believe something is rigged, if you believe something has been cheated or stolen, I would say that does lead way for an actual revolution.
	And I know you're being careful with your words, but obviously, like, well, no, I'm just saying, but I, okay, so just so I clarify what you're implying is if we believe they're abusing, mutilating kids, you said with the sword, like, why is there not capital punishment or you're not taking it that far?
	Like, why are we not fighting back, like, physically?
	What I'm saying is basically this country is full of powerly men, and that nobody's doing anything about this issue being raised by the women, and that we must have been in the school board of things.
	And they're doing nothing about this.
	We're sitting around talking about the most we're doing.
	Well, I would say like with Bill AB 1399 and then 1464, I think, or it's maybe 1646.
	They keep changing.
	And then 34 and 39 in Texas.
	Like with AG Ken Paxton and specifically even with our governor talking with them, men are coming together and they are, even though it died in the House, the newest bill is trying to label these surgeries as actual abuse or form a crime where people can be jailed.
	This is where the contention is and why people talk about Texas is the idea of should a parent actually be put in prison and although the bill, I think it was 34 died again in the House, it's being resurrected, which would be penalize and criminalize doctors who perform surgeries.
	Depending on where you fall in the argument, you could think this is ridiculous or not, but I would say that's a clear-cut example of people who believe that this is a grave mark against humanity and it is mutilation coming together, specifically men, and I think it's primarily a male legislator, but I might be incorrect, trying to create the legal route to criminalize something that they believe is a crime.
	Is that national?
	Is that international?
	I mean, it changes from country to country, and it could change from state to state.
	But I do genuinely believe people are doing something, but of course there is blocks in the court, and the only alternative would be violence.
	And as you saw from January 6th, that violence or physical force without a proper strategy or plan is not a war.
	It ends up making you a honeypot.
	You end up being a part of a target, and you end up paying the price for it.
	And I think so, strategy is what's needed here.
	And I don't believe people are doing nothing, at least in my state.
	I don't know about this state, but we're doing a lot.
	And that's why the fight is there and is in Florida.
	I really don't appreciate from Christians who advocate for mutilating little boy dicks via circumcision to talk about the idea that we're cutting off dicks for trans people, especially when circumcision is completely aesthetically driven.
	That's just a personal pet peeve of mine.
	I mean, I think that it's important to look at what is the fact of the matter for trans people.
	Moving aside from social fights or religious values, do we think that trans people are if you don't, then I mean, I understand your perspective.
	Like, why do we allow these delusions to be pushed by, I guess, women in school boot meetings or whatever?
	Why don't strong men stand up against it?
	But I mean, if we do acknowledge that there's some underlying fact of the matter, you know, whatever you want to call the surgery or however you want to refer to it, like if people need help, people need help.
	You know, much the same that a type 1 diabetic might need insulin from birth or whenever it develops, a trans person might need some sort of gender-affirming surgery.
	Yeah, so my question is about transgender people and relationships.
	So I think we can all agree that there's certain cases where consent may not really be consent if you don't really know what's going on.
	So if you have a transgender person who is completely passable and you have physical touch in a relationship, whether it's something small or something very big, and the person doesn't know what's going on, do you think people should be prosecuted for that?
	And that's a question for both.
	I mean, I feel like this is a fear that's largely fabricated by either insane people online or conservatives.
	Like, the reality is, is that the vast majority of trans people would not want to put themselves in a situation where they're like surprising somebody in a sexual encounter because it represents generally a great risk to the trans person.
	But I mean, like, I think we can all probably agree that if you are springing a surprise set of genitals on somebody, it's probably not a good thing to do.
	Whether it arises to the level of rape or sexual assault, I mean, you would have to define it in the courts.
	You shouldn't do that.
	But I don't think that this is a thing that most trans people want.
	I don't think most people want to show up and have the risk of the person that they're with, either violently attacking them or recoiling in horror or something.
	Yeah, I don't think sex should be a jack-in-the-box surprise in general, right?
	The only surprise should be if it's not as big as she wished it was.
	All of our problems, Manaba.
	But on the real note, I mean, there are things that people don't know about sex, and there are issues, and people have problems and performance.
	And not understanding the biology or the actual plumbing of somebody that you're having sex with would be a huge problem.
	And I think, just because I don't want to put words in your mouth, you said that the only people who would talk about this being happening is crazy people on the internet and conservatives or whatever.
	You have very far left people on Twitter that say it shouldn't matter.
	And then you've got conservatives that say it's happening all the time.
	But I think most trans people in real life that are touching grass are probably disclosing.
	Touching grass.
	Without the G, without the G, but I also want to say, I think there was a YouTuber who did that as well.
	People do do this.
	And I do believe this has to do a little bit with why prostitutes or different people are killed.
	The whole Black Trans Lives Matter has a bit to do with that as well, of not telling people.
	And I would say, you know, consent in and of itself is so funny because in a society that has basically passed up all morals, the reason why we focus so much on consent is because we've thrown almost every other contingency of morality out the window with sex.
	You know, we don't really have any other boundaries.
	So we only have one part left to pretend like it's sacred in our culture.
	We already killed the children that are unwanted.
	We already have every type of deviancy.
	We're already trans, but we have consent.
	And so suddenly we care so much about this one topic as the one place.
	And yeah, if at a certain point then we've got to stick in society, if this is the last chance we have, if you've got a dick in balls, you should tell somebody.
	And if you don't, they should know because the surprise may be the hardest night of your life.
	And not because you're hard.
	I wanted to ask both of you, how many trans people have you talked to about this subject and how have those discussions shaped your opinions on the topic?
	I can go first.
	Yeah.
	So I've talked to quite a few trans people on my show.
	People can decide whether they don't like it.
	I've spoken to people who have detransitioned.
	I think it would say publicly six, but privately many, many more.
	People who are left and right, and people, again, who have detransitioned and people who are transitioning, some of which are a lot more in my own personal life, being from Los Angeles specifically natively a couple years ago.
	It has changed my perspective.
	Number one, a lot of the trans people that I knew were just the guys who handed me my drink at Starbucks in the drive-thru.
	I don't know what that is, but it's just like you go into any city, the one trans person, even in like the boonies, they're at Starbucks serving you a drink.
	I don't know why.
	But I mean, in the real world and talking to people, there's a genuine truth that transsexual people who have gone through the trauma, and I use transsexual importantly, people who are older, not teenagers who are figuring it out, have really, that have not killed themselves and dealt with it are really resilient people and genuinely some of the nicest people that you'll ever meet because they've heard it all, they've went through it all.
	A lot of them have dealt with sex work or media work or something in that regard.
	And it's just like they've already bared it all for the world.
	They don't give a shit.
	And they'll just be cool people, grab a beer with you.
	On the flip side, what also has shown me too from the people that have detransitioned is that I have not met a transsexual person who is truly, truly content and happy.
	And not necessarily because they say it's their own fault.
	They could be blaming society.
	They could be blaming family.
	I just have not met many holistic, very stable people who are transsexual.
	Great people, nice people.
	And the detransitioning ones is the one that breaks my heart is the ones who are transitioning and detransitioning.
	The confusion that's there and the problems that they feel, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
	And I can see why suicide rates are so high because that would be a disorder or a struggle that rather than just saying, you know, people, let's kill them all, or what do we do?
	You know, people just say stupid stuff.
	It's like, no, I see why they kill themselves because I would never want to be in that position.
	That seems horrible.
	And I acknowledge it's real in their mind, but I still think that it's a disorder and that it's a delusion.
	I mean, on my stream, I don't know, dozens of people I've probably talked to on stream.
	Over the past or a deal where we've been talking about a lot of trans issues, I solicited basically experiences for my fan base because I was curious, like, what do you guys think about these issues?
	And I probably read over, it must have been over 100 emails over the past two months from people that have just given me so much information.
	You know, some on one side of the aisle, a lot on the other side of the aisle.
	I think that talking to trans people can help you.
	I mean, this is true of all types of people.
	Talking to people helps you understand their experience when you can't have it yourself.
	So, you know, understanding, you know, what it's like to feel dysphoric, understanding, you know, what it's like to socially transition, understanding what it's like to fail to transition, understanding, you know, the types of support that can exist in a community or not exist in a community.
	I think having a good understanding of all of these things can give you an, I say, appreciation of the experience, like an understanding of the experience, and then an understanding of, you know, like the perils and the pitfalls that people can have if they're not supported by people around them.
	So I think probably, and I would say this is true of like all people that know any person.
	Like a lot of your drive to help people, that compassion, is going to come from some level of empathy you've gotten from communicating with people that are different than you.
	Hi.
	So I identify as a lesbian woman and I've lived in Tennessee my entire life.
	And growing up as a lesbian in Tennessee is not exactly very ideal.
	And I know that a lot of my friends who are trans have had a similar experience where it's a lot of pressure from school and especially from your parents when they don't accept you because the majority of people in the state wouldn't.
	That that can have a huge impact on suicidality.
	And I don't, I just kind of wanted to ask, like, do you think that like your surroundings and your environment has more of an impact on trans suicidality than like an inherent suicidality of trans people?
	Yeah, we were asked to keep the answer short, so I don't want to be disrespectful, but America has an overall higher incidence of suicide compared to many other countries.
	Specifically, that seems to be a first world problem, even.
	There's a high suicide rate in a lot of developed countries.
	In America, it's even higher than our neighbors.
	Look at drug overdoses, self-harm, et cetera.
	This can even be considered cultural.
	I don't understand all the parameters surrounding that.
	But yes, I do believe obviously anybody that's subject of intense bullying, being ostracized, could be the environment that leads them to kill themselves for one of many factors.
	But my personal understanding is that we were designed by God in the image of God.
	And if you don't believe in God, that you have developed over tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years, and that you mentally trying to live outside the design of your body can never truly find contentment, even when you change it, due to the inherent biological aspects that will lead you to constantly feel discomfort, displeasure, awkwardness in certain situations where you cannot either fit into the world.
	And because trans people are having a hard time fitting into the world, they have a hard time fitting in with each other.
	And it creates some sort of a disassociation that I think leads to very unhappy lives for many people.
	Obviously, not all, because not all kill themselves.
	But I think it's a challenge.
	Yeah, I mean, I think there's two parts to it.
	I think there is an inherent suicidality to a trans person that doesn't have access to any way to transition just because of the feelings of disgust and the lack of satisfaction that comes along with being super dysphoric.
	But then also, I think your environment can play into it as well.
	You know, if people are constantly bullying you, making fun of you for, like, that's probably going to drive those feelings too.
	So I would say there are two parts to it.
	Hey, my question is for Destiny.
	I spend my life touching grass now.
	I don't go on the internet very much.
	Last time I was on the internet a lot, I think, was about the time that you reminded Sargon of a cod that he doesn't know how to debate very well.
	So I was going to ask just kind of a boring esoteric question.
	You kept saying in different contexts, trans people are real.
	And I wanted to know what you mean by that.
	Is it like a teleological sense or a theoretical sense?
	So like an Aristotelian essence in accidents or like there are people that actually believe this.
	Okay, so this is what I would say.
	I would say that it seems to be the case that there is an underlying fact of the matter that gender seems to exist in your brain.
	That we have some internal experience of that that's unique from like, I don't think we have an internal experience of race or an internal experience of like nationality, but we do have like a very deeply internal experience of gender, such that it seems to be the case that if you were to stick a trans person on an island without very many people or anybody else around and give them a mirror, they're still going to feel dysphoria.
	There seems to be like an intensely internal fact of the matter that drives those feelings.
	That's kind of how I view about it.
	But I'll be careful to say that there is a newer push online with a lot of other stuff.
	I don't think there's an internal fact of the matter of whether or not you can identify as a deer.
	I don't think there's an internal fact of the matter that requires somebody uses neo-pronouns.
	These are fundamentally different topics.
	Unfortunately, they all get called trans, but I do believe in this the concept of like dysphoria and the trans people that have to deal with that and then try to alleviate that.
	Thank you.
	So this is a question for both speakers, but there's been a massive popularization of these videos on social media of teachers, specifically like primary school teachers, talking about how they introduce LGBT topics to their class, like to their classrooms.
	And a lot of people consider this grooming, especially talking to it in kindergarten or elementary school.
	So my question is, at what age do you think it's appropriate to talk about these issues, these LGBTQ issues and trans issues?
	Okay, so I always get frustrated when people say, what age is it appropriate?
	Because the answer is every age, but the conversation is going to change based on the age.
	For some children, you have to start talking about sex or, you know, you mentioned masturbation very early.
	You might have a child that's inappropriately touching themselves at seven years old.
	So at what age do you talk to your child about masturbation?
	It might be that early age.
	But that doesn't mean that the conversation is we're going to have a detailed breakdown on sex and sexual and all that, right?
	The conversation you have with them at seven is going to be way different than 11 or 12, which is going to be way different than 17 or 18.
	A seven-year-old doesn't need to know about condoms in pregnancy and STDs.
	But somebody that's getting into their teens probably does need to know about these things.
	So the answer is deeply unsatisfying, and I acknowledge that, but I'll say what I said to Elijah.
	The issue is how it's presented.
	Sexuality is like math.
	The kid has to learn it for their entire lives because it's going to be all around them.
	But the level at which they learn it, how they're introduced to it, is going to be really important.
	The specifics of that are going to be important.
	If a teacher is saying that I found a way to introduce LGBT concepts by just saying like, oh, some people feel like they're born in different bodies, I don't think that's necessarily the worst thing in the world.
	But if a teacher is saying things like, oh, you see how Susie over here, you know, how she likes to wear her hair a certain way and all of that, maybe she's a man.
	I think that would be like a pretty big overstep.
	I don't think a teacher needs to say that.
	So it's going to come down to how it's presented in the classroom.
	Yeah, I don't think a sex education in a gender studies is for children in primary school at all.
	I think as long as there's a clear communication with the district and parents on which classes are going to be given about sex and gender and complex issues that could stunt or hurt development according to religious or even personal beliefs or a lack of scientific understanding or satiated research, that it should be communicated parents should have access to the curriculum and it should be careful for a parent to sit in if they want to.
	Outside of that, I don't think the state has any business or any damn business, especially a teacher, coming in and trying to explain things to kids.
	If a kid asks you about your sexuality, if a kid asks you about these things, say, go talk to your parents.
	I'm not your parent.
	And you reinforce that trust between the parent, the teacher, and the student.
	Thank you.
	So my question is a little bit of a follow-up to that, given how teachers generally are kind of first reporters when it comes to issues of child abuse or something like that.
	If they notice a kid might have some signs that they might be suffering from dysphoria or something like that, how would be the best way for them to maybe go about that?
	Should they be referring to therapists?
	You get sort of these people that get wrapped up into a sort of maybe thinking that they're doing the right thing, but then sort of overstep and then maybe even might be stepping on established things that their parents might be wanting to do and they might see abuse when they're not actually seeing abuse or something like that.
	And how can people sort of balance that?
	I'll just say simply put, I think there's a bill that might be being passed in Texas on the 1st of July.
	It might have died in the House and they might be representing it in June.
	That if once a teacher is alerted by a minor, and they could be under 14, they might have, again, adjusted it right now in the last legislative, about talking about sex, their sexuality and something deep, and or about dysphoria, I think they have six weeks to contact the parent to give him some understanding.
	Don't have to give them details, but hey, your kid came talk to me about complicated sexual issues and these things.
	Opponents of the bill are saying that you can't out a kid if they have religious parents and it leads to abuse, et cetera.
	But that's being debated right now, and I think that's a very fair debate to be happening.
	I agree with the bill that if a kid is going through sexual development, that's actually agreeing with you, that these conversations are not for the teacher and the student in the state.
	It's for a doctor and its parents and its kids to be able to discuss, and maybe not even the doctor at that point, because maybe the parents just disagree entirely.
	This is a really hard question to answer.
	Sometimes when I look at teachers, I view them similarly to police officers, actually, and that one of the most important things that they can exercise is discretion.
	You know, when you get pulled over by a cop, when a cop sees something going on, that cop, there is not like we do this and this and this and this and this.
	There is a huge range of discretion for, you know, he might catch you trespassing.
	You know, he might be able to size you up and say, okay, you seem like, okay, guy, like, get out of here.
	He might think you're up to trouble.
	And you can get into trouble with that, I acknowledge, but the discretion is important because we trust, to some extent, police officers and to some extent teachers to make these calls with our children, you know?
	And the reality is that our children are going to be with these teachers for eight hours a day.
	They have to have some sort of relationship with the child to understand what's going on.
	If I was having an intimate conversation, I say that with a friend or somebody at school, and a teacher overheard me and reported that to my parent, and if it was something that was going to get me in big trouble, I don't know how that would affect me as a kid.
	That would upset me a lot.
	I feel like I wouldn't be able to trust the teachers.
	I feel like my privacy is being violated.
	That would be bad if I was a kid.
	But as a parent, my kid is talking some crazy shit at school, and I found out a teacher heard it and didn't tell me, I would be fucking furious.
	I'd be incredibly mad.
	Like, what do you mean by kid was saying this shit six months ago and nobody told me?
	Like, how could you not tell me that, right?
	I'm the parent.
	It's really complicated.
	I think even in the DeSantis bill in Florida, I think even in that, there's verbiage that there's got to be some discretion left to the teachers about whether or not presenting some information to the parent is going to put that child in harm's way.
	If you have some very, I'm trying to think of a word besides conservative, but if you have some very anti-sure, if you have some very traditional parents and you hear a kid over, you know, overhear a conversation about a kid, maybe a girl that might be in a girl's, a boy might be in a boy's, like, is it really in the best interest of the child to bring that to the parent?
	I don't know.
	You know, probably not in that case.
	In other cases, if you hear a child talking about something, you know, maybe it is in the best interest to bring to the parents so that the parents can address to the household.
	We have to, the school system does not function.
	We don't trust our teachers to some extent because they have our children for eight hours every single day.
	So to take this line that we need to legislate every single specific thing the teacher can do, it's like, bro, this teacher is watching your kid for more than you are oftentimes if you're a working class parent.
	You have to have some level of trust in the teachers to do the right thing.
	um This is a question for Elijah.
	So if we can imagine a hypothetical world where puberty blockers are completely reversible, so there are no negative effects for somebody who takes puberty blockers and decides to go on with the puberty of the sex they were assigned at birth, would you think that that would be a moral thing to give to prepubescent children to allow them to make the decision later in life?
	So you're saying reversing the blockers after they were given blockers?
	So like, yeah, so if puberty blockers, if they could be completely reversible, if you could go on puberty blockers and then have the puberty that you were supposed to sort of supposed to have based on your biology after you're a certain age with no negative effects to you, would you support that?
	Would you think that's moral?
	No, for two reasons.
	Number one, the APA says that nearly 100% of kids with dysphoria that have been actually formally diagnosed that go on hormone blockers end up going on to take cross-sex hormones.
	So, you're talking about a very tight window there, and I think that it's almost a very interesting factor to say that you could reverse the hormone blockers.
	And we already see what happens with delayed onset puberty and problems, even early onset.
	When you start messing with puberty, not just physical development, psychological development, and confusion, I think you're leading to a lot of mental health issues going forward.
	Similar to what you see with adults who, as you said, fail to transition or don't fully transition or have regrets about it.
	I don't see how this would be helpful, and I don't think it's about trying to create a system that would therefore reverse the blockers, then making them okay.
	But I would say this: yes, would I now, for kids who have been given blockers, agree that they can be given things to undo or to try to correct the issues while also blocking future children from taking not only hormone blockers but also cross-sex hormones.
	I mean, like, I would love a law or bills like in Texas where yes, people who have already undergone surgery or treatment could get reversals, but without allowing new people to access to them.
	Does that make sense?
	Okay.
	So, obviously, within gender in a society, how you present yourself and what you wear, and like what I said, how you present yourself, is very important in our traditional gender roles into what you identify with.
	And I would say less so within the last 40, 50 years.
	But within people who are transgender, you see a well, women who identify as men have a lot of times like a hyper-masculine way of presenting themselves.
	And the reverse so with men who say they're who identify as women, they sort of hyper-feminize themselves and act like a caricature, or not a caricature, but like do all the things that we would typically associate with that gender, with a feminine gender all at once, really.
	And Mr. Schaefer, you obviously came, you dressed well, you present yourself, you have like a like your clothes are clean, you have you're wearing nice clothes.
	But then, Miss Destiny, you're wearing, you're wearing a like, go ahead.
	You're wearing, sir, you're wearing a just like a wrinkled t-shirt a little bit, and then sweatpants.
	And, well, I would like to ask you, one, why you think particular, if there's a reason with that, but then to both of you, why, well, what you think to a degree that presentation of yourself has to deal with how you feel.
	Mr. Sweatpants.
	So, I think the first part that I have to address is that my shirt is not slightly wrinkled, fuck you.
	Okay, number one.
	So, I'm inventing new words here, but I've talked to enough trans people that I feel pretty confident saying this.
	I feel like there's two types of dysphoria that you can experience.
	I think one is you have like this very real biological dysphoria.
	You look in the mirror and you don't look like the sex that you want to be.
	Men tend to have a certain shape.
	Women tend to have a certain shape, tend to put on fat in certain ways, and you can look in the mirror and you can feel like, fuck, this is not who I want to be.
	This is not who I am.
	I think there's also like a social dysphoria.
	So, when we communicate with each other, we never truly know what's in the fuck.
	I have to answer this quickly.
	We don't really know what's in the other person's mind ever.
	All we can do is you say words to me, and then I can guess that hopefully we're sharing or communicating similarly.
	I think we've got a same model.
	When you address me as a man, and I hear you say that, then that's good.
	It means we've got like a congruence in our mental bodies, in our mental models.
	I see myself as a man, you think you see me as a man.
	So, that congruence makes me feel good.
	If there's an incongruence there, if I feel like I'm a woman and you address me as a man, you see me as a man, well, now I feel like a little bit bad because there's like the social dysphoria where like, well, I feel like I should be a woman, I feel like I'm presenting as a woman, but you're not perceiving me as such.
	And then that kind of creates like a negative feeling there.
	So, yeah, I think there's a difference between like a biological dysphoria and like a social dysphoria.
	And usually, when trans people, the first transition they make will be a social transition generally, where they're trying to, at the very least, wear the right clothes, have the right hairstyles, and present in a way that more associates with the gender they have in their head.
	Yeah, simply put, we don't need Transgender Awareness Day because we are very aware all year on who's transgender.
	It's very clear that there are differences.
	That's why there's even a category given.
	And I think the biggest disservice then that transgenders have really done is this idea of needing awareness because that's only that we haven't defined not only what transgenderism is, but we allow anyone at any stage to have the full acknowledgement, full access to all of the luxuries or the new rights that transgender people are fighting for.
	And so it's like if you're just playing dress up, it's ma'am person.
	It's ma'am.
	It's like, okay, dude, like, listen, if people mistook you for a man, you shouldn't freak out a little bit because you're just playing dress up and you're not doing a very good job at it.
	And I understand they could be at a different place in their transition or whatever, but I feel like because we haven't defined it or we don't acknowledge, even in our culture, when you become an adult, when you actually transition, there's not this like official moment.
	Everybody feels entitled to the same respect, the same acknowledgement.
	And you have dudes walking around in wigs that look like men, six foot four, and are like, how could you misgender me?
	And it's like, how could I not?
	So, so, so, and I don't, and it's not to be disrespectful or to be mean.
	It's just like, I don't know what, okay, fine, you're a chick, whatever.
	I don't know.
	It's confusing.
	And everyone's so confused that, yeah, if people wanted to be taken seriously or taken a certain way, then they should look the part, try the part, and act the part.
	And I give credit to people like Buck Angel or Blair White, who, from a first glance, you could not tell that Blair was a man, is a man.
	I mean, will always be a man, in my opinion, or that Buck is a woman.
	Buck's even weirder.
	Buck's more of a man than I am in terms of physical appearance.
	God, I've got to work on that.
	I asked Buck, I was like, can I put on some of those hormones?
	A little tea shot.
	Yeah, so I think that even Buck would say that the old transsexuals have realized what they needed to do to be accepted or be acknowledged, and the newer generation, where it's clearly just mental, aren't doing the part to try to be accepted, and that's why they're treated the way they are.
	Thank you.
	Hey, Elijah, was like the whole Capitol riot thing, was that like a LARP that you were doing?
	Or what was the big, like, I don't really, like, you guys didn't really do anything.
	I was just confused by it when it happened.
	That's all.
	Oh, do you know anything about it?
	I mean, yeah, like, I watched a lot of videos on it, and like, I saw all the pictures of like the dude.
	Like, it just seemed like you were doing like a meetup thing at like the Capitol.
	Who's me?
	I put out a tweet and I was like, yo, let's go in the Capitol.
	Dude, let's go read the Capital.
	I mean, like a little bit.
	I don't know.
	I'm at the West.
	I'm at the West Thor.
	Let's get in there.
	No, I was there on assignment from my network and I really thought people were going to the ellipse, simply put, to watch a speech.
	That was the first day that I didn't bring a gas mask, and I always bring a gas mask.
	Even the Stop the Steel rallies, there was huge interactions between far left and the right-wingers that were there.
	I didn't think anyone was going to be stupid enough to do really the levels of what they did.
	I think some of the people involved, Rayup, some of them, et cetera, that didn't get prosecuted.
	I actually did film the first violence that happened that day, and I got some, you know, I got new friends in the FBI, the Homeland Security.
	We have long-term relationships now.
	Even the Attorney General.
	But I think, you know, it was a First Amendment issue, and I wasn't there to do anything besides record and to capture what was happening.
	And those videos got viewed hundreds of millions of times within just 24 hours and have been used in both impeachment trials.
	Well, not technically the second impeachment.
	And even some of my critics, like AOC, et cetera, have used the videos and unknowingly praised me for bravery, thinking I was with the New York Times.
	So that kind of stuff just does happen.
	And I'm really glad about the work that we did that day.
	And I'm glad the government decided not to prosecute a credentialed reporter who got his credential in the Capitol building to actually record and be in the Capitol during any type of newsworthy event.
	Thank you.
	My question is, how do we protect our kids if the government is coming after it, after them, basically?
	Because as we all know, kids are like sponges to a certain age.
	They will learn anything they sh see on TV, movies.
	Like when you're kids, you watch like 007, then you r run around with a toy gun or something and pretend like you're a 007.
	But as we've seen, lots of governments, like, for instance, a lot of people love to mention fascist Germany and all of that.
	They trained children to fight and do horrible things, basically.
	So how do like parents fight a government that would want to do stuff like that to children?
	Just for me or for Destiny.
	Both.
	Parents have been fighting everything for their children since the dawn of time.
	Right now we're talking about the fight against government because I guess we're talking about the fight against schools, which really means we're talking about teachers and talking about certain things for kids.
	But I mean like we have fights, I say we I guess the parent, yeah, we have fights against like you know, what are they seeing on the internet?
	What are they seeing on TV?
	What are their friends saying to them?
	You know, what are their uncles or aunts or siblings saying to them?
	Like this is this is the nature of parenting.
	It will never change and it's how it's always been.
	You are always going to be fighting for the attention of your child and you're always going to be fighting against outside forces trying to influence them to do what they want to do.
	And it just always been the case, you know.
	Vietnam riots with college kids.
	You've got kids that are rebelling against parents.
	You've got all the different phases of the emo, the rockers, the punkers, whatever.
	Like kids have always been rebelling against parents.
	Kids have always been influenced by outside media.
	Kids have always been influenced by other bad friends.
	That's just, yeah, I think that the question isn't how do we stop the government from influencing our kids.
	I think the question is more like, like parents need to work on rekindling or rebuilding that bond between associating with their child and figuring out what's going on with their child.
	Like I've always said with my kid, my goal isn't to make it so that they're never exposed to anything harmful in their life because that's just not possible.
	The goal is that I hope that he always feels comfortable talking to me if something comes up.
	And I think that should be the goal of more parents.
	Is it like, hey, like you might get exposed to something that I don't like.
	You might get exposed to something you don't like, but I hope that we can have a conversation about it.
	And then I can at least impart my knowledge on you.
	And you're my child.
	Hopefully you listen to me.
	But you have to make your own decisions eventually.
	And then you kind of move forward that way.
	Yeah.
	I mean, the alternative to Hitler's eugenics program would be what I coined the other night after a few beers, positive eugenics, which is a funny saying, just saying family planning or planning for a population shouldn't be up to the government.
	People need to take responsibility for that themselves, right?
	They need to take back that idea of why is the country messed up?
	The government needs to come in and fix it.
	No, we can change it from the inside.
	And so if you don't want the government influencing your kids, and I say this truly to college students in here, going to college probably is not the first best step to being a good parent or to actually making a lot of money.
	Most people that make a lot of money in today's world are entrepreneurs.
	It's very easy to do so.
	College degrees don't do very much.
	I don't even like, I don't even hire people anymore that have college degrees because they're annoying.
	So it's true.
	It's like, okay, cool.
	You can write an essay.
	But ultimately speaking, I don't know if we can change it for every generation above us because it requires a cost of living in most suburban areas, requires two parents working, which creates a system where you have to put your kids in school, high taxes, you can't pay for private school, et cetera.
	But young people, the next generation, you guys, can change it where you can set yourself up for a job, for a career where you can make the money so that a wife can stay home.
	If you're not into that traditionalism, maybe the wife goes out and works and the husband stays home.
	I disagree with that entirely, but I would say it's better to have one parent home than none.
	And then when you raise your kids, realize you don't have to send your kids to public school.
	There is ways you can educate your kids, and damn well a lot better than that as well.
	It's probably the only thing your college degree could be useful for is just helping your kids write their essays.
	But largely speaking, if you can change that, you can move to where you want.
	Everyone acts so restricted, like we're just stuck and we can't do anything.
	It's like I have a degree in molecular biology.
	I've worked in research, dropped out of grad school, and now I collect Barbie dolls on YouTube and talk to people in sweatpants, colleges.
	I mean, it's true, and make a lot more money doing that way.
	And it's fun.
	And so I meant like you can just change, you can elaborate, you can move, you can grow.
	And look what he's doing.
	I mean, he's here doing the same thing.
	And I think you said 12 years ago in the article I was reading, it was cleaning carpets in the what's it called, Mother Jones article?
	Like you want a different path, but I mean, I'm going to hard disagree.
	Like, there's a reason why people pay so much to go to college.
	Your degree is worth its weight in gold.
	Like, college degrees are the largest driver of wealth inequality in the United States because even the bottom quintile of people are out earning high school grads.
	If you're here getting a degree, and I'll say this is somebody that flunked out of music school, God, finish your degree.
	It is so important, and nobody can ever take it from you.
	Yeah, I think college degrees are really important.
	You're rich.
	Yeah, I am now, but like for every one person that there's me, it's a survivorship bias, right?
	For every one person like me that makes it as a streamer, right?
	Like I'm falling off a building and I barely caught onto the edge.
	There's like a million other people that failed miserably doing it, right?
	Like it's kind of like an NBA guy saying, you know, like, hey, like, play more basketball, skip school.
	Like, I'm in the NBA.
	Like, why do you, like, yeah, like, we're top earners in our field.
	Not everybody can be to that position, I would say.
	This is mostly for Elijah, but I'd like Steven's thoughts too.
	You were talking earlier about homosexual relationships in Disney and pushing physical contact.
	I was wondering what the difference is to you between pushing homosexual relationships and pushing heterosexual relationships.
	So I have to do this really quickly.
	One, religiously speaking, well, it's because I don't believe that living a homosexual lifestyle is the best path forward, not only for society or for individuals.
	I have a lot of gay friends.
	My director is gay.
	Don't have a problem with people being gay.
	But I also don't believe that's the best path in general.
	But also, if you want to ask the real question, that actually is socially, I'm not really big even in the Incredibles, you know, giving Mrs. Incredible such a thick, luscious booty.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, that was weird.
	That was weird.
	I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was, I'm joking with you, but I mean, now you've gone too far.
	No, I mean that, I mean that as I'm talking about.
	Loser the crowd now.
	Okay, no, no.
	Respect my sexuality.
	I'm a Mr. Incredible.
	But I meant that's really kind of like a very strange thing to me of like exaggerating sexual features.
	That's a problem with video games.
	I've even seen that with Fortnite.
	You know, even there's no sex and the jiggly breasts and those kinds of things.
	I don't like any of that exaggeration focus on physical contact for movies that are targeted at children under 12, and I don't think that that's appropriate overall.
	I don't know why we would do that.
	So you wouldn't like it for heterosexual relationships either?
	I didn't say I wouldn't like it.
	I just don't think it's the best option.
	I don't think you need to have physical contact, kissing, making out, any types of things in movies that are specifically marketed towards children.
	We've gone away from even movies being rated G.
	I don't remember the last movie that was rated G, everything's PG, partly because there's some sort of sensual contact in the movies that could be considered suggestive for someone under seven.
	Fair enough.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Over the course of the years you guys have spent in the trenches dealing with hateful alt-writers to demon moments to everything in between.
	What is something you were previously very adamant on respective to your side that you went on to realize as you thought about it?
	Like, well, perhaps, no, there's a little bit more nuance to this and we can apply a little bit more of the other side to my argument here.
	Every single Supreme Court decision ever requires a great deal of understanding.
	Nobody cites Supreme Court cases correctly and nobody understands where they come from.
	Nobody talking today about Roe v. Wade or KCV Play Paradigm has any idea what the merits of the rulings are, where those rulings came from.
	Nobody that talks about Citizens United even knows what the original case is about.
	Like Citizens United is about whether super PACs can exist.
	It's not.
	It has nothing to do with that.
	Kind of.
	Yeah, that would be the biggest thing I think that I learned.
	This sounds so dumb, but reading a full article or actually even people make fun of people that use Wikipedia.
	If you read Wikipedia, you're ahead of 99% of people that argue about fucking anything.
	So yeah, I would say that actually looking at what people talk about, don't just repeat the shit you hear over and over and over again, but try to find out what is actually being said.
	Supreme Court cases are probably the big one that I've kind of changed my opinion on some things for.
	Repeating that, like simply put, what are you asking?
	Or something you realize you were an idiot on previously.
	I mean, respective to, I was thinking trans inclusion, but just like, and I don't mean offense a lot, I just mean like we all realize we were previously incorrect on something respective to like, oh, our team.
	And we supposedly should have nuance added to that as time goes on.
	The two-party system that Republicans or Democrats give two shits about anybody in their party and actually making any progress in the world, and that Republicans aren't taking money from the same corporate interests that the Democrats are taking their money from.
	And our true common enemy is the crony corporate entities that are working on a global level and not at a national level, and they don't care about our interests, and they're selling us out to the world, and we're still fighting each other rather than fighting them.
	Sure, so this.
	I like your shirt.
	Oh, thank you.
	This is mostly for you, Elijah.
	So I heard earlier you said that parents who are supportive of trans youth and their transition, you called that abuse.
	Why would you call that abuse and not the parents who are not supportive of their children, who push back against them transitioning when trans youth that are not supported have such a higher suicide rate than those that are?
	Yeah, it's just not exclusive in what abuse is.
	I'm saying I believe it's a disorder, and I don't believe that going and using these treatments and surgeries or proposed treatments and surgeries are doing anything to benefit the child.
	And I believe genuinely that this would be considered abuse.
	If a kid didn't want their finger, we wouldn't let a parent cut it off.
	There's certain standards or understanding.
	If a parent wanted to give their nine-year-old and get them wasted, it's still considered abuse.
	I don't believe that we have conclusive data.
	I don't think we have long-term studies that can prove ultimately that this is something that is overtly positive.
	And because the suicide rates so far, what we've seen are still so high, I would genuinely call it abuse.
	And I do believe that there is no such thing as gender confirmation surgery.
	I believe it is mutilation, and I believe it is abuse from all people and a violation of the Hippocratic Oath and our medical system.
	I think healthcare is about creating or maintaining good health in individuals and keeping them in a proper biological position.
	And I do not believe that removing your genitals is anything that people should have legal access to from the current medical doctors under the MD, the DO, or the different licenses that they got in their current United States medical schools.
	They probably could get them somewhere other, you know, there's ladyboys in Thailand and whatnot.
	So people can't get it in other countries.
	I just don't believe our country should allow that.
	So then a follow-up, then, would you say that doctors should then not be performing surgeries on people when those surgeries would lower their risk of suicidality?
	Like I said, I think the data isn't conclusive, but I also think these are more of an elective surgery.
	I see them to be more like plastic surgery or alterations.
	But specifically the difference between moving like adipose tissue and liposuction is a different development than actually mutilating, inverting, and changing the genitals.
	You may even be able to argue mastectomy is more upon the line of, because there is actual medical reasons for mastectomies.
	There might even be medical reasons in some cases to remove genitals or to change genitals.
	I don't believe that affirming a disorder through the means of surgery is good in the same way that I don't think a doctor should perform liposuction on someone with anorexia that's been diagnosed because they have one little fat deposit on their hip and they just want to get rid of it.
	I think they should have discretion, understand why they are health providers, why they are surgeons, and the purpose and the reason for the surgery.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Just give a round of applause for everybody who asks questions.
	Thank you, everybody, for the great questions.
	Now, before we get out of here, I just have a few quick announcements for everyone.
	As I said, this is our first full year that we have been doing on Censored America, and it's taken a lot of massive team effort.
	We actually started this in 2020 right before something happened because I was trying to do the Milo event, and I was working on with the university at Penn State, and they told me that something crazy is going to have to happen for this event to be canceled.
	Like, you'll be fine.
	Like, it will have to be like the governor declaring a national emergency or something crazy, like a pandemic or something.
	And well, guess what happened?
	We got COVID-19.
	So, we've been working hard throughout 2020 and now this year to make all this happen.
	So, it's been a lot of hard work from a lot of people to make what you see possible happen.
	We had all this happen in the span of a year, and it's been amazing to see what this organization and each chapter has grown to.
	So, with that said, I would love to thank everybody that has attended here today, all of our volunteers and our exec board members who made this club a reality, the advisor for this club, and Campus Security for keeping us safe tonight, and of course, Elijah, Destiny, Milo, and everybody who spoke at our events this year.
	And in addition to the College of Libertarians who helped us out, they were the only other club that would help us out.
	They were the only ones that are willing to take the stand for free speech, which is pretty sad because when you think about it, yes, it is harder to stand for free speech now than ever before, but that means it's more important to stand up for it now than ever before.
	So, I appreciate everybody for coming out just in that principle alone.
	And if you guys want to check out more about our club, you can go to that QR code right there.
	If you want to follow Elijah or Destiny on their platforms and all their social medias while they still have them, please go there.
	It won't last long.
	But I also want to thank Jeff, who has been amazing throughout all this.
	He has been willing to help us out with the live streams of this event.
	They're streaming now on Destiny and Elijah's channels, and I've been doing amazing tonight.
	So, he's been amazing to work with, and I literally couldn't do any of this without him.
	He's been amazing.
	So, I want to thank everybody for that, and of course, Milo's team and Elijah's team, his assistant Josiah, for all their work with us.
	And last thing I'll end on is a story real quick about a friend of mine who's actually really happy about the Milo event, was really excited to go.
	And our charity at Penn State Fon disavowed it for whatever reason.
	They're a charity, a cancer charity.
	I don't know what it had to do with Pray the Gateway, but they decided to condemn it.
	And he just simply asked them, Are you for free speech on Instagram?
	And he was shunned by his friends, kicked off his thawn chair, and almost kicked out of his frat for that.
	And I bring that story up, and I'm gonna bring it up at every event now because that really shows that cancel culture, censorship, the social shunning that we have in society doesn't just happen to these big celebrities with their controversy.
	It happens to you, happens to me, happens to people we know.
	And it's very sad to see that happen because that's what we're trying to fight against.
	We're gonna talk about the things they don't want us to talk about, we're gonna make the jokes they don't want us to make, like about January 6th or This Is Incredible, or Destiny's sweatpants, whatever it may be.
	We will joke about anything and have fun together, and hopefully, have a productive discussion.
	So, if, like I said, anybody wants to follow these guys, scan the QR code.
	And if you're a royalty or backstage ticket holder, please stay.
	Royalty people, come up to me, and I'll tell you the dinner location and backstage.
	We can start lining up to do the meet and greet.
	And with that, everybody else is more than welcome to leave.
	And we hope you guys have a great evening.
	Thank you, everybody, for coming out.

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