Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer - Is Conservatism Dead? | Ep 171

July 16, 2021 - Slightly Offensive - Elijah Schaffer

57:15

Is Conservatism Dead? | Ep 171 | C-TMZ

Caitlyn Jenner received a mixed welcome at CPAC 2021 because half of the Right hates her (or him), while the other half thinks a big-tent party is the way to go. Since nobody can seem to come to an agreement, we asked a diverse panel of guests on the Right to discuss the Caitlyn Jenner dilemma and answer once and for all how having her (or him) as governor would hurt or help our party/country as a whole.

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	So at the dawn of CPAC, we found out there's some contention in the Republican Party.
	In fact, people don't know what the future of conservatism is.
	Is conservatism trans?
	Is it gay?
	Is it conservative purism?
	I don't know.
	But I brought on some amazing guests to help me discuss this conflict specifically over Caitlin Jenner, the trans identity, and the future of our country here on the right.
	My guests today are Amir Odom.
	He's a content creator who focuses on self-development, having a candid conversation on tough topics.
	Amir, welcome to Slightly Offensive for the first time.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Awesome.
	I also have a guest named Sarah Higdon, who's an Army vet, trans libertarian YouTuber.
	You can find their links in the description below.
	Welcome to the show, Sarah.
	Thank you for having me.
	Awesome.
	We also have a resident guest and longtime friend, Lauren Chen, who's a political and a social commentator, as well as a YouTuber.
	I don't know if she defines herself as that anymore.
	Lauren, welcome back to Slightly Offensive.
	Thanks.
	It's good to be back.
	And of course, our resident black person expert and our number one challenger here at all of these conversations, John Doyle.
	So true.
	Content creator.
	Welcome back to the show.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Awesome.
	So guys, I want to jump straight into this.
	We always give the guests a chance as we start out to just give an introduction about what it is that you do and what is your political leaning.
	So we'll go ahead and we'll start with Amir.
	Can you just in 30 seconds or less, just let us know where do you stand politically?
	For sure.
	So politically, I stand a little more to the right.
	Say like center, definitely more on the right side.
	Got a rise online just talking about my disgust for BLM and the modern LGBTQ.
	And yeah, that's about where I stand.
	Sarah?
	Yeah, I'm a former conservative who moved more libertarian.
	Now I consider myself more of a minarchist.
	Definitely very small governments, you know, keep the government out of our business type person.
	Awesome.
	And Lauren?
	So I am right wing.
	I'm for small government.
	I'm moving increasingly toward minarchism because I just cannot stand government power in almost any way, shape, or form nowadays.
	But with that being said, I am socially, I would say, try to adhere to Christian values.
	I'm not going to call myself conservative because as a lot of us know, that term has essentially lost all meaning.
	Awesome.
	And John?
	I would call myself a conservative, a beautiful loser.
	I guess just a more traditional understanding of what that means philosophically as opposed to the more modern strain, which would be dubbed properly neoconservatism.
	Awesome.
	On that note, welcome back to Slightly Offensive, the best worst show on Blaze TV, where we always have 8K graphics, confetti of color.
	You can give a little bit to our guests there.
	Keep it very nice and colorful.
	There you go.
	Everyone gets a little confetti here.
	There you go.
	San Sarah, we got a Amir and Lauren.
	My name's Elijah Schaefer.
	I'm your top 17 host.
	And since at Blaze, we have a new show, the Jason Whitlock show.
	They've bumped me to number 18, but that's okay.
	We have a lot more in store for you guys.
	A lot of controversial topics.
	I'm going to request that everybody refrains from cursing so that Savannah doesn't have a headache censoring this and also that we respect YouTube guidelines so that we don't get deleted.
	But before we jump into today's topic, I got to ask you a question.
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	All right, so let's jump into this.
	Obviously, we have a wide range of select panelists.
	You guys are all completely awesome.
	Just so you know, the way this works, I will call on you guys in the beginning, but I have no problem with you guys interrupting each other as long as you're kind and I have no problem with you butting in.
	You don't need to raise your hands.
	That's how it all works.
	We're going to start with Sarah.
	So, Sarah, we bumped into each other on Twitter, and I want to start this first question.
	Caitlin Jenner is obviously transgender, previously known as Bruce Jenner.
	How does Caitlin Jenner running for office in California and presumably if she won or he won, whatever you prefer, how does that help America?
	Well, Caitlin Jenner is a she's a she's for deregulation, she's for lower taxes.
	Um, she doesn't agree with the current you know, trans craze, the current you know, LGBT activism.
	So, I really think when you look in those lenses in California, somebody like that's probably the only state that somebody like Caitlin Jenner could win in the Republican Party, but she has those libertarian, she has those more small government leanings.
	So, get somebody like that in California where she can actually win there.
	And I think that her being trans could actually pull more people over to her side from the Libertarian Party or the even the left that's just sick of Gavin Newsome.
	Yeah, Lauren, I'm interested to hear your perspective.
	Obviously, I know that you're like, I would say more socially conservative.
	So, with someone like Caitlin being transgender, embracing the LGBTQ community, saying that I'm looking out above all else for this community, not necessarily the party or even the values.
	I mean, does this help or does this hurt the overall country if Caitlin were to win?
	Well, I think there's a couple of questions we need to ask: is Caitlin better than someone like Gavin Newsom?
	Absolutely.
	A lot of people are better than Gavin Newsome.
	But what I think is important to remember is if we're talking about this from a Republican standpoint, Caitlin Jenner has come out and said that when it comes to social issues, she does lean more conservative.
	She's for lower taxes, you know, protecting the border.
	That's amazing.
	But I think we all should remember that when President Trump was in office, she came out against things like trying to define gender based on genitalia or a sign-up birth, however they want it, however you want to call it.
	When it comes to the issue of trans athletes, Caitlin Jenner has also said that biological males should not be competing, competing against females, except for when it comes to younger children, and therefore kind of leading into the fact that, yeah, Caitlin Jenner does believe that children should be able to transition.
	So these are not socially conservative policies by any means.
	I think Sarah's probably right that this would probably help with a lot of libertarians who are, again, they're not conservatives.
	They're just small government, especially in terms of taxes.
	But there's a difference between conservatism and libertarianism.
	And I think someone like Caitlin Jenner running is a great example of that.
	Amir?
	Caitlin Jenner is a wild topic to me.
	I don't know.
	I feel like I don't really know where she stands.
	It's crazy that, you know, she's flip-flopped on so many different topics.
	And I mean, to be quite frank, it makes me wonder if she's, if Caitlin's going to flip-flop on her voters, how Bruce flip-flopped on Caitlin, Caitlin.
	Right.
	And that's interesting, too, because I've noticed that we've all sort of adopted in this conversation already the preferred pronouns, referring to Caitlin as a she.
	John, I'm interested to hear your views on this.
	My views are essentially that I think that using low taxes and small government as a barometer for which candidates we want to prop up in the Republican Party is a flawed thought, especially in a state like California.
	And the thinking is sort of, oh, well, maybe if Caitlin rejects the sort of trans craze and LGBT thing that's happening now, that would be good for us on social issues.
	And it's like, she was the trans craze.
	She did the cover in 2015.
	And that was what acted as sort of the catalyst for this whole discussion.
	There are very prominent people in right-wing media who made careers out of just saying there are only two genders.
	Men cannot be women.
	Like there are people who literally made careers by doing that.
	And now collectively we're deciding, wait a minute, we could actually own the libs if we elected a transgender in California, which is never going to happen because California, which is, by the way, the state that produced Richard Nixon, the state that produced Ronald Reagan, that state is never going to go red again because of the demographic change.
	And those demographics that vote overwhelmingly for Democrats also happen to be the Democrats, or I'm sorry, the demographics that are the most least likely to support something like a transgender person running for public office.
	So I think that that is basically an example of conservatives being children and these like petulant toddlers who think that like we're going to just take all of our money and throw it into something that's going to achieve us nothing tangible simply to point out the hypocrisy of the left.
	Oh, well, now they're actually the real transphobes because they don't like Caitlin Jenner.
	And it's like literally the most surface level political analysis that you could provide because it's like it requires no insights or intellectualism.
	It literally just requires that you observe what they are saying and notice the difference between that and what they are actually doing.
	It doesn't require any other strategy or planning.
	It's literally just pouring money into something that is not going to work simply because you think it's going to help score points against your aunt on Facebook.com.
	Yeah, Sarah, what do you think about that?
	Yeah, I actually agree.
	I mean, Caitlin Jenner would not be my first choice.
	Who would be, by the way?
	When the governor of California or the only person I even really know that's running for governor of California is Richard Goodnell.
	Larry Elder now, too, by the way.
	Do you know Larry Elder with him?
	Sarah, are you familiar with Larry Elder?
	Oh, no, I just saw that he announced, what, yesterday?
	I don't really follow too much about the California race.
	The only time I really see much is when it is talking about somebody like Caitlin Jenner that's stirring up news.
	Yeah, that's interesting.
	And this is what I want to kind of bring this to.
	Okay, so there's a big discussion on what it means to be right wing.
	And, you know, a lot of people right now are mad because we've conceded so much ground in the left that there is a growing swath, I would say, of hardline individuals who were once centrist or libertarian that see that that kind of live and let live mentality has led to us conceding ground because as we let them live, they use their rights to take away ours.
	And so when we come to a position like nominating a transgender, and I would say even giving the most press to a transgender, when it comes to what defines us as a party and what defines the right wing, if we don't draw the line at a transgender candidate, where do we draw the line?
	And we'll go to Amir, start there.
	That's a very good question because I had a been talking to a lot of friends recently and it's like, what are conservatives conserving?
	You know, what is the state of the conservative, what a state of the Republican Party when you literally have a trans as the front lead as far as he's getting the most press.
	It's concerning to me, and I'm not sure where the party is going.
	And I'm starting to see now what people mean by why we necessarily don't need this big tent because the tent just keeps expanding and expanding, expanding.
	And at what point does it stop?
	We see how far it's come now.
	Yeah, Lauren?
	Well, this is this whole conversation kind of reminds me of when Donald Trump was running the Republican primaries.
	A lot of people were bringing up his divorces, his very non-traditional personal life.
	You had the Stromby Daniels fiasco.
	I mean, even that people knew about that before he was actually president.
	And I was always of the opinion that if he's the best candidate, I am less concerned about his personal life.
	And frankly, if Caitlin Jenner, I'm probably going to get flack on this, if she was actually coming out hard as someone like with DeSantis' policies, this would be a totally different conversation, in my opinion.
	But let's not forget, Caitlin Jenner being trans aside, Caitlin Jenner is just not socially conservative, even with the positions that she comes out.
	She is for all the LGBT anti-discrimination policies.
	She has said that repeatedly.
	So it's not even like this is a trans person who is saying like, no, we should be able to protect women's sports and all these things.
	We should have Catholic adoption agencies the right to refuse to adopt to same-sex couples.
	This isn't even someone that's doing that.
	This is someone who is economically, perhaps right-wing, but socially progressive.
	Caitlin Jenner, from everything I've seen, leans way more libertarian.
	So it's kind of like this topic doesn't even apply to Caitlin Jenner.
	She's not really claiming to be conservative.
	John?
	I would make the argument that there's sort of a conservative to libertarian to conservative pipeline that I think most people progress through, myself included, where we are conservative in the sense that like, oh, I like America and I kind of don't like government epic.
	And then you're like, wait a minute, the founding fathers, they wanted us to be libertarians.
	But then there are events or even in my case, one single meme that gets you to like snap out of that.
	And for me, it was realizing that I'm not even kidding.
	It was one meme I saw.
	Realizing that idealism suggests that we can yield the power vacuum, but that's not actually how human beings work because we're flawed.
	Everybody knows this.
	The founding fathers knew this, et cetera.
	And so to achieve something like a truly libertarian society, you're basically in a sort of prisoner's dilemma where you're shaking hands and saying like, I'm not going to wield power.
	You're not going to wield power.
	We will live and let live and we will all coexist peacefully.
	Except that the side that we're up against doesn't actually want to do that.
	It is the quintessential example, I guess, would be white, what is it?
	White silence is violence versus don't tread on me, right?
	They're going to come find you when you're having dinner and they're going to demand that you stand up and say black lives matter.
	And if you don't, you are immoral and actually you are committing violence against them.
	You're complicit in that versus the right just saying, hey, do what you want, but just don't tread on me.
	And they're not going to do anything about it when they're actually like being tread on, which the flag suggests.
	The Gadsden flag suggests that upon being treaded on, you're going to at some point bite back.
	But the libertarians largely haven't done that.
	I mean, you even watch the footage from their conventions.
	Someone says that they think driver's licenses should be a thing.
	And there's just boo, boo, government bad.
	And it's like, government isn't inherently bad.
	Power could potentially be bad, whether that's corporate power, state power, it doesn't matter.
	And so libertarians are so rotted in the brain from pornography and drugs that they think that like, oh, as long as it's Bank of America screwing me over, it's okay because at least it's not the state.
	Okay, so that's what I want to bring into this is that even as we're talking about this, I mean, what does it show us about our future in the right wing in general, whether you're libertarian or conservative, that if you can go to my screen for a second, Savannah, when you have somebody prominent like Tommy Larin saying the attacks on Caitlin Jenner are despicable, I'll go to bat for her every single time.
	And if you want to take my conservative card for it, take it and shove it.
	Your mob is no better than the lefts.
	And in fact, it's uglier is the fact that in the midst of all of the trials and the struggles that not only California is facing, but the country is facing, that the argument and what people are concerned about is whether or not people are calling Caitlin Bruce.
	I mean, what does this tell us about our current state and why we continue to lose?
	And I'll go to Sarah for that.
	Yeah, I think, I mean, I get it.
	The thought to, like you said, called Caitlin Bruce.
	I don't have those types of, I think it's more, you know, you being more respectful to somebody is actually how you get more people on your side.
	And so when you're actually talking about somebody like Caitlin Jenner and you're doing it in that way, you're not actually talking about her specifically.
	You're talking about somebody like me or a lot of other people that are in the, that were part of the walk away movement.
	I mean, you got to remember the walk away movement took down Trump from 14% of the LGBT vote to 27% of the LGBT vote.
	I mean, the Libertarian Party would love to have those numbers.
	You know, that's 18 million people that are in the LGBT community that they could pull over to their side and start making more headway, you know, as we are.
	But if, so, I mean, if conservatives are really looking to push that number away, you know, push a lot of those people away because right-wing LGBT people don't necessarily want to drop the T.
	They want to drop the transgender activists that are in the community.
	Right-wing LGBT and the T standing for transsexual is much different than transgender and the TQ plus.
	Explain.
	So transsexuals, we don't believe in like the non-binary and the thousand genders that you have.
	You know, we're not queer activists.
	We typically have more traditional values.
	And so when you're talking about even on the right-wing side of things, we typically agree with most of the things that's going on.
	We never, I mean, I never thought that Donald Trump was a homophobe or a transphobe or anything like that.
	So I don't, I mean, we don't believe in a lot of the leftist rhetoric that's being put out there.
	But we do just typically just want to go along with our lives and as we see fit.
	And so when you attack somebody like Caitlin Jenner and you misgender her and you do stuff like that, I mean, people like me see that and be like, well, they don't want me in this party.
	So why am I going to stay?
	Why am I going to go back to the Republican Party?
	Like I said, I was a former Tea Party conservative.
	I left before, you know, a lot of the social activism and stuff like that happened before my transition.
	But that was because of the big government spending and everything that was going on.
	So I think if I were to look to see if I was going to vote back in the Republican Party, I mean, I can only see Rand Paul and Thomas Massey actually vote right now.
	Yeah, so I want to go to Lauren on this because you made up an interesting point.
	You said that I don't know if I want to be in this party.
	And I think that kind of building on the question, Lauren, the question begs to differ is, number one, is there room for transsexuals or transgenders in the party?
	And two, what's the difference between making room in the party versus making room for them to have influence in the party?
	Well, I think there's room for everybody.
	Like if people want to vote Republican, they should definitely do it regardless of how they, like what color of skin is or what they do, whatever.
	Everyone should be voting for the right-wing party as far as I'm concerned.
	But when they start to bring in left-wing policies as a result of that, that is a really big difference.
	And I'll use Caitlin Jenner as the example of this.
	There's a difference between Caitlin Jenner saying, yeah, I'm on board the Trump train.
	I'm MAGA, you know, DeSantis Trump 2024.
	Let's go pence versus Caitlin Jenner coming in and saying, yes, yes, I am Republican, but also here are all of these different left-wing agendas that I support, like getting rid of the ban on transgender individuals in the military, which as someone who I have diagnosed anxiety, I am not fit to serve in the military because of my mental state.
	And it's just very strange to me that with military members already having a very sadly high suicide rate, that there's, you know, the question of whether trans people can go in or not with another group that's a very high suicide rate, it's kind of just being dismissed as, oh, you're either transphobic or you're not, where there's so much more to the question there, I think.
	But yeah, I mean, again, this is not, I don't think if you're someone who is gay.
	To vote for Republicans, you should need Republicans to be having rainbows and pride flags and all of that, because that speaks more to an ideology than specifically your sexuality.
	Exactly.
	I was going to say, exactly.
	Like, I'm gay and the Republican Party backing, the people in the Republican Party that I see back Caitlin Jenner make me question even call myself a Republican or being more towards the side than if they were to accept her.
	So I'm on the other side where, you know, I agree with Lauren where you it's not all about the social aspect.
	I don't want to hear anybody.
	I don't want to hear the rainbows.
	I don't want anything having to do with that.
	Me, what I do behind closed doors has literally nothing to do with anybody.
	And so when I see someone touting that or trying to get the gay vote, it seems kind of pointless to me.
	I don't understand why Republicans feel they need the gay vote to stay alive or pander to gay people because you don't need that.
	I don't even like it.
	I don't even know where these polls come from.
	I've never selected a poll.
	I'm gay and I voted for Trump.
	Like I just don't understand any of that.
	And the idea of sexuality or gender identity as an aspect of your political identity, that is a left-wing concept in and of itself.
	Exactly.
	Yeah, John.
	I agree with that too.
	First of all, Tomi Laren is not a conservative.
	She couldn't even conserve her career or her engagement, frankly.
	So I don't know if we can really, I don't know if we can really just take her.
	We have to take it with a grain of salt.
	I'm sorry, but it's true.
	It's just, it happens to be the case.
	But on that, I will say that I think that the mistake that the right has made for the better part of the last century is that we sort of look at the inevitable and predictable results of these trends and we go, oh, well, this is the part that's wrong.
	Third wave feminism is what's bad.
	With the other feminism, that was okay.
	This current LGBT movement is the problem.
	But the other stuff, it was okay.
	You have to understand when these principles and ideas are accepted, they will progress and ferment logically.
	And this is what's referred to as a slippery slope, which has been eternally vindicated, I think.
	And so I don't think it's enough to say that like, okay, well, now we should probably draw the line after Caitlin runs for governor in California.
	Then we'll say, well, maybe we need to start taking this a little bit more seriously.
	It's like these things are going to progress naturally over time.
	And that's just basically proven to be the case.
	And then I think also it's a mistake to outreach to these pro these these different groups thinking that like a proportionate increase like I think the figure you mentioned was like 14% to like 27%.
	Cool, but that's of what, 5% of the population?
	Whereas if you got 1% or 2% more of the white vote in this country, disaffected people in middle America who've never voted in their lives because they look at perhaps the party to which they're or with which they're more likely to sympathize and they look, okay, well, now look who they're promoting.
	They're promoting transgenders.
	They've abandoned God.
	They've abandoned any semblance of what actual conservatism is.
	I'm not going to get up and go vote for them because they're a joke.
	This country has relatively low political participation in terms of elections because of that.
	People feel disaffected and they feel like they don't have any representation, especially middle Americans.
	And so I think it would be a better use of GOP resources to try to, I don't know, get those people to come vote instead of saying like, hey, gay people, look, we have a rainbow flag too.
	And that's the other thing that I really liked about Amir and Lauren's points.
	It's like, if you need the conservative party, nominally conservative party, to adopt positions that pander and accommodate your particular lifestyle, then you're not a conservative.
	You're a gay person who happens to maybe like guns and low taxes, but you're not like by definition a conservative if that's the case.
	Well, then let me ask you this.
	Before we jump any further, I want to ask the difference of is the future of the right wing conservative or libertarian or a hybrid of both?
	But I got to let you guys know that part of the reason why I kind of stay libertarian a little bit, even though, and I don't identify as conservative, but I think libertarians are weak and I think conservatives are both weak, is because I've watched the feds mess with me, mess with a lot of people.
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	What are we going to do?
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	So I want to go with that, Sarah, because Sarah, you identify as like a libertarian Catholic.
	And so that's kind of weird to me because, you know, like God talks about this idea of identifying as, you know, as a Christian and of viewing yourself, of having self-control, which I could see align with being libertarian.
	But also, we're not supposed to promote that which is evil.
	And I believe that we're supposed to hate that which is evil and promote that which is good.
	First of all, how do you, how do you, I want to just ask you simply, how do you align being Catholic, so being committed and confirmed and having your faith in God with living a transsexual lifestyle?
	Yeah, I mean, we can look at the, we can look at the Bible in a lot of different ways, and we can see that Jesus preached love and tolerance, plain and simple.
	I mean, a lot of the passages in the Bible that, you know, talk about, you know, gay people and trans people all happened before Jesus came.
	And they're all like one, two lines below like the kosher rules and stuff like that in the Bible.
	So if the kosher rules were fulfilled when Jesus came, then why, then, then why wouldn't like being gay or being trans?
	I mean, as well, Jesus saved, used a miracle to save a gay man as well.
	So I firmly believe that Jesus loves all the people and we're all sinner and we're all sinners.
	And, you know, I think that it might not, I mean, I will never say that I was, I'm a good Catholic, but I was raised very Catholic and Christian.
	We have a great church here in Atlanta that preaches tolerance and stuff like that.
	So it very well does align with the teachings of Jesus.
	Even if, I mean, you still have to learn from the Old Testament, but Jesus is king, right?
	Can I ask you a question?
	How personally or what specifically do you feel like with the Imago Dei or being designed in the image of God?
	Do you feel like God made you incorrectly?
	Or what is the deal with switching, or at least like medically and legally switching your sex?
	No, I believe that God created the science and the science shows that trans people are valid, at least transsexuals are valid.
	And there is medical research that shows that there was a hormone imbalance in the womb.
	And that's kind of what creates gay and trans people.
	So, Amir, obviously, you just said you're unapologetically gay, but it's not the ultimate factor of your identity.
	Just, I'm not trying to peer too much, but do you identify as Christian or religious at all?
	No.
	Okay, so I'm going to ask you, like, do you feel like being gay or transsexual, do you feel like that aligns with Christianity or not?
	Or what are your thoughts there?
	I personally don't think it aligns super well.
	You know, I love the Bible.
	I've taken a lot of Bible classes.
	And in high school, people are looking at me like, Amir, why are you taking this Bible class and you're gay?
	And I'm like, well, because I want to learn more.
	Like, I still can read the Bible.
	I still can learn from it.
	And, you know, I think a lot of gay people open themselves up to a lot of criticism and a lot of flag when they call themselves a gay Christian or that they want to get married in the church as a gay man.
	And personally, I just find that a little hypocritical.
	And you're opening up for debate because, I mean, I've always heard this as a kid, it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
	So I don't know when it comes to gay homosexuality in the Bible.
	I haven't looked too much into it.
	But what I have seen, I can't knock those of the likes like friend John or Bryson Gray who say all these things directly from the Bible.
	Like I can't knock them for saying that.
	I can't knock them for just quoting the book.
	So that's just where I stand on it.
	Lauren?
	Well, I think the conflation, I think being trans and being gay or lesbian are two very different things.
	Just like morally, philosophically, even medically, when it comes to the whole trans issue, I'm a kid from the 90s, so I always always taught that it was a medical condition.
	So you mentioned being born in the image of God.
	I wouldn't see someone who, I guess, has like a medical condition where they feel dysphoria as anyone else different or any less in the image of God than someone who has any other mental illness, like my anxiety or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
	I hope that makes sense.
	So yeah, so that's in regard to the trans issue.
	And in regard to the, you know, being gay and things like that, well, I think the first thing is that the church is very clear about what marriage is, marriages between a man and a woman.
	What I find very strange, though, is that there are Christians who will be very, very condemning in regard to things like homosexuality, but saying nothing about things like divorce within the church and all these things.
	I'm not someone who thinks that Jesus excuses sins, but we are also told that all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
	So I think as Christians, we need to remind ourselves that our goal is not just to condemn, but also to bring the gospel, which is the good news that anyone is able to accept the gifts of salvation through Christ if they believe in him and take on his name.
	What I find a little bit frustrating is A, Christians who believe that there is no, you know, preach that there is no such thing as sin or, you know, that they are not sinful.
	I think it's like as Christians, we just need to have a more codified message and it cannot just be gay, bad.
	Because that's, you know, Sarah is right.
	Christ did not speak specifically about being gay.
	He talks about things like lust, but there's just so much more to it.
	And so I, you know, when we have these people like Westboro Baptists who are a fringe minority, I don't think they understand the fullness of the gospel.
	John?
	As a Catholic, I would say basically that the opposite of what Sarah said is true in terms of the Bible outlining sexual immorality, particularly homosexuality.
	Even in the New Testament, I think it's mentioned in Corinthians, Luke.
	And it says, I mean, God made man and woman to be unified together in one flesh.
	And I think that oftentimes there's sort of a pivot from these LGBT people who are Christians and they'll say, well, actually, what Jesus said is that we need to be loving and tolerant.
	And it's like, okay, true.
	He also said that we're not in a position to declare one sin is worse than another sin or some person is better than the other, which means literally that if all sins are to be measured, you know, basically as equal, it means that like the murderer is not different in the eyes of God than the homosexual because everybody is a sinner, right?
	And so if the objection there is, oh, yeah, I'm a murderer, but you know, Jesus actually said that we need to be loving and accepting.
	So that's actually not a fair criticism.
	It's like, no, it's totally fair.
	And perhaps that's an extreme comparison, but nonetheless, it holds up.
	But I mean, the same goes, the same goes true for anything like envy, greed, or gluttony.
	You're also as bad as a murderer.
	True.
	I mean, and I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but just for context, it's not just about being gay versus being a murderer.
	It's about everything we do.
	That's against the Bible.
	Right.
	But particularly, we're talking about Christianity as it's squared with LGBT issues, which is why I wanted to bring that up.
	But even like the term like gender, gender means literally like gen. Think of genesis, generation.
	It means to generate derby dermatology, taxidermist.
	It means flesh.
	The word literally means to generate new flesh.
	The term itself is defined by the capacity to procreate with a woman or with a man or whatever.
	So like gender and sex are not actually separate.
	Like they literally mean the same thing until maybe, what, 30 years ago?
	Yeah, this is what I want to bring this up.
	You can go to my screen here.
	So Tommy, the reason why I brought up the Christian debate, and I think it's interesting, number one, because Sarah, you put Catholic in your bio.
	So not everybody, you know, defines very closely with their faith.
	And just like some people put atheist in their bio, I thought that was interesting because I would say that the majority standardized idea from the Bible would be that outliving or intentionally living against the will of God puts you in a very precarious place and either could A, show that you did not originally have a true born-again, given experience with God where you had actually confessed and given up your sins.
	But on the other end, too, with compatibility, people do understand that we are weak.
	That it even says there's verses just like about God judging us or, you know, about the fact that we need to confess our sins.
	There's also that God knows that we are weak and he has mercy on us, right?
	So there's a lot of this debate, especially between Catholics and Protestants, between Arminianists and Calvinists.
	I mean, we're not going to get into that today.
	But I do want to kind of bring this up a little bit on this debate.
	Tommy Lehron said, and I brought this up because she goes, I believe in limited government.
	And I'm also Christian enough to know that it's not up to us to judge, which is, again, a biblically untrue statement.
	We're told not to judge someone's ultimate salvation, whether they're going to hell.
	But it's important for the Bible says for us to judge and to discern, right?
	It uses different words.
	It uses judge and discernment.
	But I was also taught that heckling and harassing others is despicable.
	Believe it or not, you are not the warden, I think, of conservatism or Christianity.
	So I think that we have a real big problem with the involvement of how much religion specifically, because I think a lot of people really aren't very faithful people and they don't really have a relationship with God.
	I think a lot of Christianity in the right wing is very religious.
	It's a very like a rule-oriented.
	And so starting with Sarah, I mean, you say you're a Catholic.
	What role does Christianity have in the right wing?
	And how do you, how do you connect that with being libertarian and hands-off?
	I mean, I am very much when it comes to government, you know, church and state, everything like that, separation.
	I don't think that really Christianity has any role in government, especially as a libertarian.
	I think that I just want to go live my faith as I see fit on my own without, you know, with the protections of the First Amendment.
	But other than that, I don't think we should be, you know, legislating based on, you know, biblical law.
	It's like saying that we should be, you know, we can also legislate on Quran law.
	It's the same thing, just different people's perspective.
	Amir?
	I, like I said, I stay out of the whole Christian debate when it comes to gays.
	I have not that well read on it because I, like John said, it clearly talks about men and women.
	And when it comes to this topic, I just feel like there's a lot of, like I said, like a lot of problems that gays run into themselves openly and not acknowledging these clear-cut issues and topics that are stated out in the Bible and even stated out if they truly believe and feel that they are what sexuality they say they are.
	Because at the end of the day, if it's me and a woman at the end of the world, it's nothing I can do.
	Like, so I can't even put out what God has written in the book for us to intend to do.
	You know, what I'm saying, but this is important because you're not, you said you're not particularly religious.
	You don't have a faith.
	I mean, I know a lot of our viewers, people can be as far as dedicated, born-again Protestants, committed Catholics to total, you know, anarchists, atheists.
	So I know that people are on the spectrum.
	And so a lot of people that are listening, I would say a good amount of the audience is agnostic or atheist or however you define yourself.
	But I would say that there's also a bigger majority of conservatives of the right wing that are Christian or at least religious and believe in those things.
	So like, I really want to know as somebody who is gay with Christianity saying that that is not the way God intended us to live, with someone who is Republican or at least, you know, I'm sure you're becoming more disillusioned, but who believes in these, knowing that the party is more influenced and controlled by that, I mean, the left was going to look at you, Amir, and be like, well, you're a blathering idiot because that's not the party that likes you.
	They don't want you.
	They don't want you in there.
	Look how they treat, you know, Caitlin Jenner.
	So like, how do you reconcile the place of Christianity or at least of Christian influence in the party with the lifestyle and the religious beliefs that you hold?
	That's a good question.
	You know, when it comes on the topic, let's say for marriage, for example, I would prefer if the government just stayed out of marriage totally and just kept it alone.
	And, you know, if you want to get married in the church part of your religious backgrounds, that's fine.
	But as a gay man, the only reason that I want to get married like to like within the state is just so I can have the same benefits and the same legal protections as a straight couple.
	But when it comes to the Bible, I do like a lot of what's laid out in it.
	I enjoyed all the classes I took in the Bible.
	I grew up in the church.
	I enjoy a lot of the, I enjoy a lot of the basis that's within it.
	I guess my only disagreement with it is like the lifestyle that I'm living.
	But besides that, I really do enjoy what's in the Bible and the content that it proposes for what a society should be and should look like.
	John, you seem to have a thought on that.
	Yeah, I was going to say that I think the difference between the Bible and the Quran is that the Quran is fake and the Bible is real.
	And that just, I mean, if you're a Christian, that's like literally what you believe.
	You believe in the divinity and the truth of Christ logos.
	And so I think that you're almost called to spread that truth and to say that this is actually correct and this is what we need to do.
	And there's sort of this idea that permeates on the right that, like, oh, well, there should be no law that makes an attempt to compel individual behavior.
	That's not true.
	Every law we have, whether that's a speed limit, whether that's, you know, taxes on soda, like it all exists to try to compel individual behavior towards a way that the government deems is correct.
	I would actually almost only trust Christians to hold power in government because as the founding fathers do.
	And by the way, there's this, what is it, the separation of church and state.
	The founding fathers were deists.
	They weren't Christian.
	That's not true.
	You can find like even someone sent me this last night, some of Washington's old journals where he said that this country could only function if they were immoral or no, just a Christian people.
	It was James Madison who wrote the Constitution who said that it has to be immoral and religious people, particularly referring to Christianity.
	I would only trust Christians to wield power in this country because man is flawed.
	And if he doesn't have a deep relationship with God and that fear of God in him, he will eventually, in a long enough timeline, find a way to rationalize his own desires and pursuits and selfishness over the needs of the people over whom he's governing.
	So I would only trust Christians to wield power in this country.
	And then, what was the other point?
	Marriage.
	That's, I think, kind of a pivot that conservatives like to do.
	Like, the government just needs to be out of marriage.
	Marriage is pre-political.
	Marriage exists before this country, before probably even the concept of government.
	So government needs to be involved in marriage in that it affirms what it is as an institution in society, which frankly is the backbone of society is families and marriage.
	And to elevate the marriage of a man and a woman to the same level legally as that between two men is just, frankly, an abomination because they're not at all the same thing.
	And society has a vested interest in the marriage between a man and a woman because they create those families, which form the backbone of the society.
	We need them to stay together, to have a healthy, prosperous relationship so that the children who will become the future of that society are doing well.
	And we know, of course, that the breakdown of that family structure has led to numerous catastrophes in terms of like the social cohesion and well-being of the society.
	And to say that that relationship is equal to a relationship between two men or two women and should be seen as such in the eyes of the state is just not true.
	It's just misaligned with reality.
	Lauren, I'm interested.
	You're not really real fast.
	I just want to point out to the viewers, just so they don't know.
	A lot of people don't know that there's major attacks like backfiring in Canada.
	I know you're from Canada.
	They don't probably know that.
	And they're burning down a lot of Catholic Christian churches, from my understanding, dozens actually, in backlash for what they feel were crimes from the church against the people.
	So obviously Christianity is, I would say, being fought or under attack where you're coming from.
	And so you would be somebody very, I would say, qualified to speak about the place of all this inside of politics.
	Right.
	Well, as someone who does think that the state should get out of marriage, that's not to say that the state should treat gay marriage and marriage between a man and woman the same.
	I don't think the state should be in the position to grant legal marriage certificates at all, nor should it be in the position to say who you can and cannot leave things to in terms of wills, who you can and cannot visit in terms of things like hospitalization or insurance, which are just some of the benefits that the state now gives to people who are married.
	I don't think the state should be in a position to do any of that, again, because I'm more libertarian.
	That's not to say that marriage is not important, but to me, marriage is a contract before God.
	That is, I mean, what the state does is kind of moot.
	I like getting the tax break, sure, but I don't think anyone should be paying taxes.
	I guess is where I'm coming from to begin with.
	So the way that my, you know, I kind of pivot between an anarchist versus just a booming theocrat.
	I am a little bit at war with myself lately.
	And that's because what frustrates me about a lot of the libertarian movement nowadays is that they view liberty as the ends and the means.
	You know, it's not just we should have the freedom to do something, but it's that your choice must be inherently moral because you are the one that chose it, which I think is ridiculous.
	I can appreciate that people have the right to choose to do something without actually thinking it is the moral thing for them to do.
	So I'm someone who wants small government, but I grew up in Asia.
	It's an honor-shame culture.
	I believe that a moral backbone is very, very important for society.
	You know, Dennis Prager, he says, if you want small government, you have to have a big God.
	And I agree with that.
	But kind of just getting on to your questions that you were asking Sarah how she feels being transsexual while identifying as a Catholic.
	I would love to ask the same thing to people who are, for example, doing things like living with their partner outside of wedlock and calling themselves a Catholic.
	People who are engaging in premarital sex, anyone who has had an abortion, people who use the Lord's name in vain.
	As John said earlier, all sins are equal before the eyes of the Lord.
	And I think as Christians, I'm not trying to downplay the whole issue of sexual morality.
	I actually want to elevate it because I think we've kind of gotten to the point as Christians where we just view this as a culture war.
	But are we policing our own?
	Are we encouraging Christian behavior in church-going people?
	I've seen tons of, you know, nameless avatars online kind of harassing Caitlin Jenner, which is not a Christian thing to do.
	But meanwhile, you know, they're the ones who are swearing.
	Are they going to church?
	Are they living godly lives themselves?
	I hope so, but I have my doubts.
	Yeah, and I kind of want to talk about this a little more and the direction we're headed as a country and maybe some solutions.
	Because rather than just talking about problems, I want to kind of hear from you guys.
	And just so you know, to the audience, to the snowflake people sometimes who will watch this, there's a few of you guys watching this right now who will get offended.
	The point of these panels, like bringing somebody on who's of different genders, of race, of sexuality, of even expression, it's not because it's the left wing and we have to use identity politics.
	The purpose of all this is to give different experience, to give different views, and to bring people together.
	That's why we call this conservative TMZ because it's people who lean towards freedom, towards an expression of wanting better for the country, but clearly have different lifestyles and routes to get there.
	And so, if you disagree with somebody, if you don't like somebody, just learn to embrace it.
	And if you love someone, make sure you support them as well.
	But I got to let you know before we move on to the next topic that we do live into the turbulent world.
	People don't agree.
	We don't know what's going to happen.
	We've seen problems like the power grid failing here in Texas.
	There's been issues where we didn't have food for a week.
	And you know exactly what's going on in this country.
	And you know what's coming next?
	Well, no matter what happens, food will always be your number one concern.
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	Sarah, kind of going into this, you seem to be somebody who's pretty level-headed.
	And I think that might surprise some people who you might call transphobic or people who, you know, vehemently refuse to associate with anybody who lives the way that you do, right?
	And I mean, it could be, we have a lot of different people that believe a lot of different things, but you said that you were part of the walk away movement and now you're here in the Republican Party.
	We're losing badly right now.
	We've lost an election, whether it was legally or illegally.
	I happen to think the latter.
	We have lost our institutions of education.
	We do not control the media.
	Pretty much the culture has fallen to the left into immorality.
	How does the party opening up to people like you help our position and move our country forward?
	Or what do we do to move our country forward and to help it?
	You know, I think we have to keep on the same track.
	I mean, yes, you're right.
	I mean, I think we just lost an election.
	And right now, a lot of social conservatives are trying to push LGBT people away.
	I think, and I might, and a lot of people on this panel might disagree.
	I think Donald Trump was a detriment to conservative values because Donald Trump was not a conservative.
	He was a big government actor.
	Where I was part of the Tea Party, I lost interest in the Republican Party because those small government values that I had in the Tea Party were not being shown.
	I mean, as soon as Republicans get into office, it seems like they just want to spend on their pet projects just as much, if not more, than what Democrats do.
	So I think you have to get back to the small government principles in order to draw more people who, like me, are taxation as theft.
	We don't think that Donald Trump's tax cuts went nearly far enough.
	We didn't agree with, you know, all the inflational policies that were tariffs and everything like that.
	Otherwise, you're going to keep losing.
	And I tend to say that the Libertarian Party, which I'm actually a Libertarian, I voted for Joe Jorgensen in the last election.
	I think that we are going to continue to grow.
	I mean, look what happened in Georgia.
	David Perdue arrogantly thought that he had the libertarian vote, but what they don't understand is libertarians won't vote if people don't hold their values.
	I voted for David Perdue in the runoff.
	I'm very good friends with Shane Hazel.
	So I think that I think that David Perdue not going on Shane Hazel's show really hurt the party and he did nothing to court the libertarian vote.
	So libertarians didn't show up for him.
	Okay, so then that's kind of a mirror.
	I'll bring that in too.
	I mean, you seem to be somebody who's actually quite not the normal person where you are living and you say you identify as gay.
	You also say you're non-religious, but you're also like, I haven't adopted the left's self-identity of this social Marxism.
	So kind of moving forward, I mean, do you agree with Sarah?
	Is that what we do?
	Do we bring people in or do we move further right or more conservative?
	Like, how do we actually win since we really are sore losers right now?
	Again, I may be different, but the right going more conservative is what brought me over in the first place.
	It wasn't rainbows that brought me over.
	It wasn't gay conservatives that brought me over.
	It was watching these videos, your videos, John's videos, Fleckas, and actually seeing like, oh, they make sense.
	Let's just see what they're talking about.
	And that's what's won a lot of me and my gay friends over.
	I don't need the pandering.
	I don't need any of that.
	And I really don't think you need to really prop up gay people just to get the gay vote or kind of bring more gay people over.
	Because again, like I always say, being gay is the least interesting thing about me.
	And I always tell people when they're coming out or like all the gay guys that message me like, hey, you don't have to make this your whole identity.
	It's what you do behind closed doors.
	Leave it at that.
	Stop shoving it in people's faces.
	Leave the kids alone and just go about your day.
	And so when it comes from the future of conservatives and Republicans, I just rather than focus on the things that they want to focus on and gradually people will come over.
	But I don't, I don't, I don't need you to prop up gay people to get the gay vote when you have other areas and demographic that you can target to get the vote more.
	And that extends out to even black people.
	Why are you targeting black people so much when it's clear that Hispanics are the one that you should be targeting?
	Like, why are you, what are we doing here?
	It's this identity politics games I just think really needs to just end.
	Lauren?
	Yeah, I mean, I agree.
	Identity politics, you know, the right, anytime they try to play that, they lose.
	It's because, I mean, the left is going to be playing that angle so much better than the right ever could.
	And it's like, look, if you're a Republican, do you want to give a gay person a rainbow flag or do you want to give them a job?
	Do you want to deliver them border security and tax cuts?
	I mean, these are policies that everybody, and I, you know, in terms of like who should be voting Republican, look, I think everybody should be voting Republican.
	Doesn't mean that you pander to every single special interests group.
	But I think if the right would actually just deliver on the promises they make while they're campaigning, they would be so much more popular.
	And I think that the reason why, you know, Republicans didn't do as well during midterms last time around isn't because they didn't go right enough.
	It's because they didn't deliver on campaign promises, things like healthcare reform, you know, things like doing more work on immigration, actually cutting spending.
	Like Sarah is saying, you know, Republicans talk a big talk, but then they spend like drunken sailors when they're actually in office on their own pet projects.
	So, I mean, I'm not really concerned whether Republicans go left or right.
	I just want them to actually be effective and do something for once.
	John, to close it out?
	I agree.
	I would like to see a competent Republican government as well.
	And that's why I think it's a mistake to regard small government and conservatism as synonymous because I don't think that's the case at all.
	I think that we had a society 70 years ago where we could have a small government because we had institutional control, be it through the church, be it through the communities, education, Hollywood and media.
	I mean, you weren't seeing nearly the level of degenerate content being promoted back then as you are now.
	And because there's this thing that happened that was referred to as the Long March, where the left literally infiltrated all of our institutions over the course of about 80 years.
	And now we're here where we have absolutely no institutional power or representation.
	And I wish that weren't the case.
	I wish that we could all live and let live.
	I think people who are predisposed towards right-wing thought wish that we could just kind of live and let live and not have to wield power.
	But the reality of politics is that it comes down to power.
	It comes down to influencing people.
	And we have no capacity to do that right now, except for the hypothetical scenario that we could occupy government power.
	But even then, what's our answer?
	Well, no, we need small government.
	So we basically have either we get screwed and then we have small government or we get screwed.
	And then maybe we have a chance to like Tom Brady fourth quarter this with like getting an actual like competent government in the position that we could now.
	And that's the thing is it's like we, and I'm a Christian, so I believe in demonic influence.
	I think that this country is so possessed by demonic influence.
	Like look at all the things that we've elevated to the mainstream narratives, abortion, like greed, gluttony, just everything that is a sin is broadcast into the mainstream and put into our classrooms and our children's faces.
	And it's like, I'm of the opinion that the only way that you could cut the supply of that off, because I don't think we have enough time to have our own long march and go through the institutions.
	I also think biologically our time preference has been eroded by things like technology, social media to where we need new information.
	Now, I don't think we have the discipline to actually like go through that process, nor do we have the focus.
	I think literally the only chance that we have would be to infiltrate government and wield that power effectively to basically crush the communists into the ground, which maybe we flinch hearing that, but that's exactly what happened 100 years ago.
	100 years ago in this country, you could not get a job in media.
	You could not get a job in education if you were a communist.
	And then they said, well, wait a minute.
	No, we just like free speech.
	And then the American thought, okay, if it's just a little bit of free speech, you can have it.
	And what you give them free speech, they infiltrate the institutions, they kick you out.
	And now you are in exactly the same position that they were 100 years ago.
	And they've convinced you that it's a virtue because you're being tolerant or something like that, but they're going to crush you.
	Yeah.
	And I think that's where we're at today.
	We're going to continue these conversations throughout the months and continue to talk about these are hard things and things are changing.
	Sometimes you even have to ask the same questions, which is why even though I'm overcoming what, this is like 12 days of like laryngitis.
	It was a joke.
	He's like, haha, my dad has laryngitis.
	Let's all hang out with him.
	And then we're just like, oh, okay.
	And then we all got laryngitis.
	No, we all, I got, we all, everyone got sick.
	But you guys who are here, by the way, as I know Lauren has a heart out, you can follow Lauren, John, Amir, and Sarah in all the links in the description.
	Most of them either have YouTube channels, Instagram, Twitter.
	They're all going to be there.
	And check it out.
	I think Lauren has a new website out as well where you can check that out.
	And John does too.
	Before we go any further and we close it out, I want to let you guys know that the easiest and the freest way to help the show is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
	It's free.
	It costs you nothing.
	And it helps us out so much.
	As you know, we have been demonetized on Facebook, on YouTube.
	I don't even know how long we'll last here.
	But ultimately speaking, we rely on these reviews to let advertisers know that this is the spot to be.
	And so we might even read yours.
	Here's two reviews from Eve's namesake.
	It said, a beacon in the dark.
	Elijah Savannah, thanking God for you both for going forth with Holy Ghost boldness.
	It's terrifying and daunting sometimes, but y'all really have encouraged me to speak up.
	Much love, beautiful people, cling yawn.
	No, I think that's actually the peace sign.
	Okay.
	And we also have one from Jay Hughes4031 says, absolutely legendary.
	I love what you guys are doing.
	Elijah and John have both been very influential in me deciding to launch my own YouTube channel and podcast.
	Thank you guys for everything you do.
	God bless.
	And I hope to meet you guys one day, maybe at Liberty University, if you ever come speak there.
	I don't know why you didn't plug your podcast in that review, but I hope you checked out the video.
	You could have been the three Musketeers.
	Yes, you could have been.
	Anyway, thank you guys so much again for watching another episode of Conservative TMZ here on Slightly Offensive, the best worst show on Blaze TV, where you know that if you sign up at blazetv.com slash Elijah, you support the graphics cards that render high-quality inserts like this confetti of color, which we always say confetti of color because color comes after confetti because we are politically correct, even when it comes to our amazing real-life graphics.
	Thank you so much to Lauren Chen for coming on again.
	As always, last time we mentioned it was the election.
	Anything that you want the audience to know about there to follow you or anything you're doing?
	You can find me on YouTube.
	It's Lauren Chen.
	Twitter, Instagram, Telegram at the Lauren Chen.
	And you can also check out exclusive content at my locals page, which you can find by going to laurenchen.com.
	Amir, any plugs?
	Yeah, you can find me at amirodom.com.
	All my links are there and on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook's all AmirXOdom.
	Okay, Sarah?
	Yeah, I mean, my link tree name is Sarah underscore H225, which that's my Instagram as well as my Twitter.
	You can find me on YouTube as well, just Sarah Higdon.
	Search for it.
	Or if you go on Lauren's channel, she posted about my stuff the other day.
	We did a stream about two weeks ago now.
	Right.
	And John?
	John Doyle on YouTube.
	HeckoffCommie.com.
	Yes.
	Heck Off Tommy too, apparently.
	Literally, literally.
	Freudian slip.
	Anyway, you can follow me in Savannah as well on YouTube, wherever else you can find people and things where we have not been banned.
	As always, have a great rest of the week and may God bless the United States of America.

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