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Oct. 4, 2022 - Depositions & Trials

04:33:05

Watch Live: Alex Jones Defamation Trial: Sandy Hook 'Hoax' Lawsuit - Connecticut Trial Day Twelve

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	Good morning, Your Honor.
	Good morning, Marshal.
	Good morning, everyone.
	Please be seated.
	All right, we are here on Lafferty versus Jones.
	This is week four, day 13, if you count, yesterday's charge conference.
	If council could please identify themselves for the record.
	Good morning, Your Honor.
	Chris Maddick.
	I'm going to start by Alex Sterling and Judge Pattinson.
	Good morning, Your Honor.
	Morning, Your Honor.
	Good morning, Judge Under Captain Defendants, Chris B. Sistings and Alex Jones.
	Good morning, and let me just say to the audience that in accordance with Judicial Branch policy, only those entities that have been specifically authorized to photograph or film may do so.
	If anyone violates their policy, their devices will be confiscated and they will be removed from the courtroom.
	Alright, do we have any, once again your jury is here on time.
	They are a very conscientious group.
	Do we have any housekeeping matters before we get started?
	No housekeeping matters that we need to deal with now, but just to give you a heads up on something we should deal with at some point today would make sense, and that is I understand that Mr. Jones is considering whether to testify most likely tomorrow to have discussions with the council about that. and that is I understand that Mr. Jones is considering
	It's our view that there should be an offer of proof in light of the various as to what he intends to testify about in light of the various rulings of default and some of his conduct outside the courtroom during the course of this proceeding.
	I don't want to speak for Attorney Pettis, but I believe that he agrees that that would be an efficient way to understand precisely the scope of testimony, if any, that Mr. Jones would be permitted to offer.
	So I think we can deal with that that we should deal with that today so that Mr. Jones can consider that and so that the court can kind of prepare for that testimony.
	Generally, I resist to offer some proof as the court's interfering with the presentation of a party's case.
	And I think that if we did have that discussion, there would be some use in it, although, you know, I, and I have an argument as to why it might not be necessary.
	So I think we should argue whether it's necessary.
	If the court orders me to get one, I'll get one.
	And that might certainly be the law of the case is complex.
	Mr. Jones was advised of it prior to this prosecution.
	I certainly wouldn't oppose another advisement of that.
	I don't think there are any rulings since this last testimony to add to that.
	But I think it would be helpful to address his testimony later in the day.
	All right.
	You just let me know when it's a good time.
	Okay.
	And then we approach briefly just on a quick...
	Absolutely.
	We're going to move forward.
	Thank you.
	You'll probably hear about this from sources other than Can
	we come in that side door too?
	They come in that side door?
	Yes.
	And they all be, so they're not using the phone.
	I'm near the phone.
	I got here at 9.05.
	It came up at 9.30, so I know he's not here.
	No, but they are not using that entrance.
	Okay, and you didn't get any notes, right?
	I haven't seen the jury here today.
	I just got a text from Chief Marsh.
	There's a press conference going on right now.
	There you go.
	Can you speak?
	I understand that what Mr. Jones said in substance this morning, writing this book, was that the default is a lie, and also describe a history of false flags.
	I didn't see it.
	This is what was related to it.
	On the slides.
	So, um...
	Is it a trial?
	As I said, I didn't see it.
	Um, but this is part of the reason we think an offer of proof is going to be necessary.
	Well, I did not get...
	I'm not...
	The Texas Council faces any sanctions here on grounds that you don't ask questions because I am dead intended for the whole story.
	I don't intend to do that.
	I didn't imagine it would.
	No.
	I don't think I'm a good person to read him to the point.
	I know what the rules are.
	I know what the rules are.
	I will make his choices, and the court and counsel will do what they think justice requires.
	I have made it clear what the court's position is, and candidly in my view, took liberties that I was surprised were tolerated in this cross-examination.
	Attorney Price: Attorney Price: I did not have a contention when he started Attorney Price: I know.
	Attorney Price: The plaintiffs, the plaintiffs, the plaintiffs, the plaintiffs, I was going to raise that as initially before, I said that he had read into that that I'm going to be tolerating further behavior.
	So I would have been relevant by rights of all of these people.
	Judge?
	You can imagine a universe in which a cautious lawyer might have said something like that.
	Your Honor, I think one of the reasons though why we need an offer of proof is because we need to I mean, there's some other issues here in terms of, as I understand, Attorney Pattis, there's a door-opening argument, and the scope of that, I think, is something that needs to be addressed.
	I believe that part of the...
	Of the door opening argument may depend on the testimony of the corporate designee, and we would have a response to that, which is the corporate designee finds the corporation.
	So I do think that it's something that we need to spend some time on.
	I also wanted to say, Your Honor, that I may duck out before the jury comes in, and I just didn't want to say anything over there, but I didn't want to be rude.
	Okay.
	Thank you, Judge.
	Why don't we get the jury on?
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	This is fine, by the way, guys.
	Thank you.
	I gather you're offering the redacted version Good
	morning, good morning, good morning on this rainy Tuesday day.
	Welcome back everyone.
	Good morning, good morning.
	Council will stipulate that our entire panel of nine has returned.
	On time as always and we appreciate that.
	Please be seated and make yourselves as comfortable as you can when Ron hands out your notepads.
	Ron has not brought to my attention any notes from any of you so I will continue to assume that there have been no issues but if and when you have any issues with Anything that you've encountered that needs to be brought to my attention, I know you'll follow the rule that I set out and I will deal with it appropriately.
	Whenever you're ready, Attorney Maddie.
	Thank you, Your Honor.
	Please call Francine Mueller.
	Very well.
	Good morning.
	Just watch your step there.
	Just remain standing and Mr. Ferraro will swear you in.
	Thank you.
	You may be seated.
	I just need you to state your name, slowly spelling your last name for the record, and the state and counties of it.
	Francine Wheeler, W-H-E-E-L-E-R, Fairfield, Connecticut, Fairfield County, Connecticut.
	Thanks very much, Your Honor.
	Good morning, Francine.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Good morning.
	Francine, let's do a quick introduction to the jury.
	You are married to David, who's here and testified earlier in the case, yes?
	Yes.
	And have been for a long time.
	Friday will be 21 years.
	And you are mom to Ben Wheeler.
	Yes.
	And also Nate and Matt, right?
	That's correct.
	So as we've been doing with all the folks who are here, we've been trying to give the jury a sense of your background and who you are as a person.
	And so I'd just like you to please give the jury a sense of that, where you grew up, what your family life was like, where you went to school, that kind of thing.
	So I grew up outside of Philadelphia in a very loud Italian family.
	The only girl with three brothers, kind of strict Catholic at the time, kind of lapsed later.
	But we were funny.
	We were artistic.
	We played music.
	We sang together.
	My mom's an artist.
	And ironically, we lived near Newtown Square.
	That's where I was born.
	And then we moved to another county outside of Philadelphia, and I went to school in Newtown, Pennsylvania.
	And later on ended up in Newtown, Connecticut.
	So at the time when I graduated from high school in Newtown, PA, I went to Allentown College of St. Francis de Sales, which is a long name, but a very tiny little school where I majored in theater and French, double major.
	Francie, can I start?
	Yeah.
	You mentioned that you grew up in a big, loud Italian family.
	There was a lot of singing.
	Tell the jury a little bit about singing, because I understand that's a large part of what you do.
	How did you get into that?
	Well, when kids learn to talk, when they're like a year, I was learning to sing.
	I have always sung.
	I have been a singer my whole life.
	I've done other things too with singing, but singing is kind of the core of who I am.
	And I was about five when my mom said, I think you're going to be a singer because that's all I wanted to do all day and night.
	My older brothers, much to their chagrin, were listening to me sing Annie over and over and over and over again when I was 13 forever.
	And then, you know, I got serious about it.
	I learned to play piano and I was just wanting to be a performer.
	You said you have three brothers.
	Is your family all still down in the Philly area?
	They are all still down in Philly.
	My parents are still living and my brothers are all within an hour to 15 minutes of them.
	And they think I live in like Utah or Europe because I'm so far away from them.
	But I see them a lot.
	I see them a lot.
	So, tell me again, you went to St. Francis DeSales?
	It's now called DeSales University.
	In Allentown?
	Right outside of Allentown.
	Okay.
	And when did you graduate?
	1989. A long time ago, yeah.
	And when you graduated, did you try to make a go of it in singing and the arts?
	Yeah, so my parents redid, my mom redid my bedroom curtains thinking I would move home.
	But I said my friend got me a singing waitressing job at Mrs. J's Sacred Cow on 72nd and Broadway, so I'm gonna move to New York.
	When you say singing and waitress, are those two different jobs or is it the same job?
	Well, it was two things that I had to do, not at the same time.
	I didn't like serve the food and sing, but I served the food and then I would get up and sing a song and that kind of thing.
	I got an agent that way and it kind of started my career in New York, so...
	Is it in Manhattan?
	Manhattan, Upper West Side.
	I lived in a lot of different apartments because I would leave the city and go and do a job.
	I played Maria in West Side Story.
	I did a lot of parts like that.
	It wasn't until later that I focused on commercials and singing mostly.
	Singing commercials and singing with my band.
	That happened later.
	David mentioned that, I think he mentioned that when he met you, you were singing as part of a swing?
	Yes.
	A jazz outfit?
	I had a trio called Swing Set.
	And if you're old enough to remember, or if not, in the 90s, swing music was very big.
	And during that time, I thought that if I sang with a big band, I would get a lot of work.
	And we did.
	And we recorded music, and we performed every week on 46th Street and 8th Avenue, and we Had a great a cappella group.
	So what happened was that we had been doing gigs for a while, and my roommate said to me, you know, I know these sketch comedy guys, Ward and Wheeler, and they're looking for a music act for their next variety show.
	And I said, well, what does it pay?
	Because for me, it was about how much money I could make because it was a tough business to be in.
	And she said, well, I don't know what it's going to pay, but it could be good exposure.
	So I told the girls, and I said, what do you think?
	Should we do this gig?
	It's going to be on the Upper West Side at Sutra's Grill with these guys.
	I don't know them.
	And they're like, well, you know, let's just do it.
	So long story short, we did the gig.
	And I meet this guy, this kind of goofy, funny guy named David, and I noticed that he's really a good guitarist.
	And I said, you know, David, I have an audition next week for this folk musical, and I need a guitarist.
	Would you be interested in playing for me?
	And he said, sure.
	So I hired him, we rehearsed the song, we did the audition and after the audition I got a letter in the mail and it was this card and it had a picture of me kind of singing and him playing guitar and I was like, oh my gosh, that looks like David and that looks like me.
	And then I was like, oh my god, that is us.
	And my roommate said, well, he totally likes you.
	And I thought, oh my gosh, I think I like him.
	But I kind of got excited And then my phone rang later, and it was David.
	And I was so excited because I thought he was going to ask me out.
	And he said, um, hey Francine, it's David.
	Listen, um, I was like, yeah?
	I, uh, I was wondering, um, uh, Jamie and I have a gig this Friday.
	And I was like, yeah?
	Would you work the door for us?
	And I was like, okay.
	And I thought, I am really desperate.
	Because I was almost 31 and I had made peace with the fact that I was probably not going to get married because I had spent my life up until that moment really focused on performing.
	And I didn't Really either, you know, I just didn't have time anymore and I didn't know if I ever wanted to settle down.
	But after I met David and I worked the door that Friday, I kind of knew.
	It was a weird feeling and it makes me kind of Happy said, but I hadn't even kissed him yet and I knew I had fallen in love with him and It was kind of a magical time because we didn't we were so busy We didn't even go on our first date for a couple months after that,
	but I knew I was gonna marry him I didn't tell him that because I didn't want to scare him off but I knew When he was testifying, he said that once you and he, it sounds like you came to this realization very quickly, but once the two of you realized you wanted to be together, he described it as just looking at green lights all the way down for the two of you.
	How did you see it once the two of you decided that you were just going to be together?
	It was probably with about six months into our relationship I knew that we were going to be together.
	Well, he knew by then.
	And the way we looked at it was it was the timing was right because we were not just in love, but we were Both kind of tired of the business, and we both wanted to have marriage and kids.
	Like, it was just something that I knew I wanted to do, and I didn't before that.
	I just could see us being a family.
	So it was kind of like we just made it happen, and it was easy.
	It was always easy then.
	And over time, as you guys were thinking about getting out of business, I figure that's why you ended up looking to move out of the city to somewhere else.
	Well, I always say I left the business, but I never really did, because I had this kid's band at the time, too.
	A lot of things happened.
	I did a lot of different performing, and we were looking near Philly to be near my family.
	But I said to David, I kind of want to be near New York, you know, just in case...
	I still want to sing sometimes, you know?
	And he said, sure.
	So we kept looking near New York, but we were struggling performers, and we couldn't afford any place.
	And we had these friends who had moved to this place called Sandy Hook.
	And they said, you know, come up here.
	It's only like an hour and a half from New York.
	And it was the first place that we could afford to settle.
	And it had really good schools.
	And I'm kind of skipping ahead because we had kids in the city first before we moved.
	That's Nate and Ben.
	Nate and Ben.
	Yeah.
	When did you move?
	We moved in 2007 in April, and then by July we rented a little tiny house, and then by July we bought our house in Sandy Hook.
	And Nate was four, and Benny was about eight, nine months old.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So let's go there then.
	So Nate is Ben's older brother, separated by a little over three years?
	Yeah, a little over three years.
	And how old is Nate now?
	Nate is 19 and a half.
	So you all move out to Sandy Hook.
	Tell the jury about Ben.
	We heard a little bit about the teeth from David.
	Oh yeah, the biting.
	Tell the jury from your perspective about Ben growing up, what he was like.
	Well, he had a Lobus face.
	That's my maiden name, Lobus.
	And he had this big, bright smile and rosy cheeks.
	And he was funny.
	He was such a funny boy.
	And he was kind of my koala bear.
	Like, he was my kid that if I left the room, he'd be like, where'd you go?
	Come back, you know.
	But he also showed signs early, early on that he was musical.
	I tell this story that we were leaving the doctor's office one day, and we were in the elevator, and we left, and we go in the car, and he said, Mama, what's that C for in the elevator?
	And I said, oh, C's usually for like center floor kind of thing.
	He said, no, no, no, no.
	Not that letter, but a...
	And he hummed a C, which I'm not perfect pitch, but it was like, hmm.
	And...
	I said, what?
	And he said, yeah, the C. And so I went home with him and I started saying, sing me a G. And he could sing a G. And he just could sing notes out of the air.
	And during that time, he was also very obsessed with lighthouses.
	So he had to visit lighthouses whenever we moved somewhere or whenever we, I mean, not moved somewhere, whenever we went on vacation.
	We had to visit.
	We had to tour lighthouses.
	He had to have a lighthouse on his birthday cake.
	We had lighthouses all over Nate's room.
	And he was so busy, he never sat.
	So he would just run, run, run.
	Right before he died, he had started to settle down.
	But we had a sticker chart.
	And one of them was...
	You get a sticker if you do something good.
	Yeah.
	So he had, like, one that was, like, sitting fully in a chair.
	That was his biggest accomplishment.
	He finally did that, but no kicking, licking, or biting was, like, a two out of five.
	Like, he really couldn't...
	He did that a lot, so...
	Can we show a picture, Ben?
	This is, Your Honor, Exhibit 560. It's a new exhibit.
	560, sir?
	Yeah.
	I believe it's without injunction.
	No injunction.
	So you're talking about lighthouses.
	So this is...
	That's Nosset Light in Massachusetts.
	And that's Ben.
	Yeah.
	Do you know when about that might have been taken?
	I think that was 2011. It could have been the summer of 2012. I'm not sure.
	It was either 2011 or 2012. He was about...
	Yeah, he was five.
	So it must have been 2012. What do you like about lighthouses?
	He liked getting to the top of them and seeing out into the ocean.
	I'm pretty sure that we saw a whale when we were in Massachusetts or we were at the top.
	He liked hearing the history and how people would bring in the boat safely.
	He was loving that captain feeling, like being the beacon, the one that could You know, stand at the top and help the boats.
	Before he died, so, you know, around this time, 2011, 2012, what was his relationship with Nate like?
	So, they were very different boys, but they were best friends.
	Nate was always reading.
	Ben always wanted to be outside.
	So we would try and get Ben to sit and read a little bit, and we'd try and get Nate out of the house a little bit.
	Benny, even at a very young age, even when he had just turned six a couple months before he died, he was helping Nate get out of his shell because Nate was such an introvert.
	And Ben was like, come on, Nate, we're going to do this and we're going to do that and come on outside.
	And he had this kind of high-pitched, very...
	You know sing-songy voice and he would convince Nate and nobody else could you know so they had that beautiful like I could picture them as grown men being best men at each other's weddings or Benny visiting Nate at college before he would go,
	and I just knew that they were best friends, and I never worried about them having a playmate, because they always had each other.
	In fact, Ben was so excited about Nate, I had to stop Ben.
	He would poke Nate's eyelids in the morning to get him awake.
	And I'd say, you know, you can't wake up your brother Nate.
	If you do, I'm gonna have to put you in another room.
	And he said, please, Mommy, don't put me in a different room.
	I love Nate.
	You know, so he did finally stop poking his eyes, but it took a while.
	They shared a room?
	They did.
	They did.
	So moving into 2012, I want to show you another picture just so we can orient the jury in time.
	This is 315. This is by agreement, Your Honor.
	Already in, I believe.
	Agreed.
	So, you can pull that up.
	Thank you.
	So here we are.
	When was this picture taken, Francine?
	This was just literally maybe a few days, could have been as long as a week before the shooting, because we took that picture quickly on the phones, one of our phones, to make a Christmas card.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	That's Nate in the red and Ben in the green.
	That's right.
	This is at your home?
	Yep, right in front of the stairs.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Francine Waterman, I want you to tell the jury about that morning, morning of the shooting, and the time that you spent with Ben that day before you sent off to school.
	So, usually Nate and Ben would get on the bus, like normal.
	And that morning, David and I were rushing, and I said to David, you know, Benny has a little bit of a cough.
	Should we send him to school?
	What do you think?
	And he said, oh, he'll be fine.
	So, David left.
	And unbeknownst to me, he'd taken Nate and Ben's backpacks with him because we were switching cars that morning.
	And when the boys realized that, I said, don't worry, Ben.
	I'm going to write to Mrs. D'Amato and I'll tell her, you know.
	And then I said, oh my gosh, guys, I forgot Nate has book club.
	We've got to get Nate to school.
	So, I quickly cleaned up and as I'm stacking the dishwasher, Ben turns to me and he says, Mommy, what does forgiveness mean?
	And I was like I don't know, Ben.
	I'm so busy.
	No, Mommy, Mommy, what's forgiveness mean?
	And I said, I don't know.
	Ben, it's like when you do something wrong and the other person forgets about it, and now, come on, we've got to go.
	So we pack up the bags, we get in the car, we drop off Nate at Sandy Hook, and I said to Ben, okay, so what do you want to do?
	Do you want to go home and wait for the bus, or do you want to go to Starbucks for a treat?
	He said Starbucks, of course.
	Nate was in fourth grade.
	And Ben was in first.
	So we go to Starbucks.
	He orders a chocolate milk.
	I get my coffee.
	We sit down.
	And he literally turns to me and he says, You know what, Mama?
	I'm going to be an architect when I grow up.
	And I was like, wow, okay.
	That's great.
	He said, no, no, no, no, wait.
	I'm going to be an architect and a paleontologist because Nate's going to be a paleontologist and I have to do everything that Nate does.
	And I said, well, you know, you're on your own person.
	You don't have to do whatever Nate does.
	And he said, oh, no, no.
	No, I'm always going to be with Nate.
	I love Nate.
	And I love you, Mommy.
	And I said, I love you, too.
	You know, it's so nice we never get to be here together, you and me.
	We're always rushing around.
	And then he said, Mommy?
	And I said, Yeah?
	And he said, Can I have your iPhone?
	So I gave him the iPhone.
	A few minutes later, I said, All right, buddy.
	Come on, we've got to pack up everything and go to school.
	So it was about 9 o'clock.
	And he was so excited to go into school when I was dropping him off around the front.
	He left the door open.
	And I said, Benny, close the door!
	And I don't remember if I said I love you, but I remember saying, close the door.
	That was the last thing he said to me.
	And then he went in. - That, those moments you spent with Ben at Starbucks, just the two of you, has that become a cherished memory of yours?
	Yes.
	Everybody knows that story who knows us.
	Yeah.
	Um.
	As we've been doing with most folks.
	I'm not going to have you walk me through the rest of that day.
	But I do want to talk to you, Francine, about the week thereafter.
	Nate was obviously in school, though.
	Nate was hiding in a box of t-shirts in the supply closet in the gym, listening to the murders.
	He heard everything.
	He was there.
	If the shooter had turned right instead of left, he would be gone, probably.
	In the days after, I understand that you and David obviously had a lot of support from friends and family to come help.
	We had five years in Newtown and we have had and have a community and so they immediately swarmed in and Helped us kind of get through I mean,
	I think Press was there by the end of the day before I even officially heard that Ben was gone so I was having them kind of deal with the press immediately and By the next day my friend who was in my singing band with me back in the 90s one of my closest friends she was she came in and kind of took charge of everything to help with the onslaught of people and craziness and The phone ringing and I had a home number that time and it kept ringing.
	David described that at some point, relatively soon after the shooting, people had come to the house claiming, wanting to see Ben and falsely claiming to be a reporter and that one of your friends that helped manage that situation, is that the same friend you're talking about?
	Yes.
	And what's her name?
	Kim.
	When did you, in the days after the shooting, when did you first learn that there was a lie that had been pushed when did you first learn that there was a lie that had been pushed by Alex Jones concerning what What's happening to you and these other families?
	Your uniform compound.
	Overruled.
	Benny died on Friday the 14th.
	By Monday, Kimmy came to us and said, one of the dads of one of the kids who died, his name was Robbie Parker, and he did a press conference and they're saying,
	Things about Robbie that aren't true, and there's this guy out there who's saying that Sandy Hook didn't happen, and now they're bombarding Robbie, this dad, with this stuff on his daughter's page.
	But it was very, it was probably a few weeks of Kimmy talking to us about it and I pretty much said stop.
	I don't want to know.
	I can't handle anything right now.
	All I, you know, so, but she did say it very early on and that she was working behind the scenes to try and keep it away from us as much as possible.
	And when you heard this, it sounds like your response was just to say, I don't want to even know about this.
	I don't want to know.
	I didn't want to know also, you know, I didn't want to know anything about the crime.
	And I didn't know...
	If I could handle the next minute.
	So I just wanted to deal with the minute.
	And I didn't want to know anything outside.
	I didn't look on the television.
	I didn't look on the internet.
	I created a kind of...
	I think even David knew more than I did.
	I just kept a very small room for things.
	When was Ben's funeral?
	His visitation was Wednesday night, the 19th, and his funeral was Thursday morning, December 20th.
	That was a Trinity Episcopal Church in your town?
	Yes, I was a member of Trinity.
	Did you hear Bill Altenberg testify in this case that he was assigned to provide security at Ben's funeral?
	Yes, but I didn't know.
	Because that was the only funeral at Trinity Episcopal Church.
	It was Benny's.
	I didn't know there were death threats.
	Kim told me later that was true.
	I didn't know at the time.
	Moving forward into the first months of 2013...
	You okay?
	Moving forward into the first months of 2013, did you, over time, although you were trying to keep yourself in that bubble, start to become aware more about this lie that was being pushed?
	Yes.
	Nate was asked, because he was in fourth grade, and the third and fourth graders were asked to sing in the Sandy Hook Choir at the Super Bowl in New Orleans.
	That was February of 2013. And at the time, I was still pretty insulated.
	I didn't know what was really out there, but I remember being nervous about Nate's safety and my safety and David's safety.
	We went to the Super Bowl, and during the Super Bowl, the lights and the electricity went out during the game.
	And I was pretty terrified that this was the end, that people were going to come hurt us.
	But it was after the Super Bowl when I actually started to understand something different that was going on.
	And is that because you became aware that Nate had learned about this lie that his brother's death was in hoax?
	Yeah, I was trying to keep it from him.
	He didn't have a phone.
	He was very limited.
	He was only nine and a half.
	And so I found out that there was a boy in the choir that they were saying was Ben.
	And I started to see some of the comments after the Super Bowl and that we were actors and that there was this Bunch of people who didn't believe that Sandy Hook happened because look, there's Ben in the choir, Nate's brother, and I was terrified that Nate was going to find out because I felt like I can ignore this, but I can't have Nate see it.
	But Nate went on a play date one day, I think it was before his birthday in like April, and his friend showed him everything on the internet.
	And all the lies they were saying about David and I being actors and that Ben was alive, that we didn't even exist, that Nate was lying at the Super Bowl.
	And he asked me, he said, why are people saying this, Mom?
	And I didn't know what to say to him.
	I mean, I have to say this because it's really important When I say this out loud, I have to also remind myself of this, which is, it is one thing to lose a child.
	There are thousands and thousands of parents who have lost children.
	To guns, to cancer, to many, many things.
	And that's hard enough.
	Because you learn to live, if you're a grieving parent, you learn to live with that It's quite another thing when people take everything about your boy who is gone and your surviving child and your husband and everything you ever did in your life that is on the internet and harass you and make fun of you.
	Because that's something I can't fix.
	I can't make that better for Nate.
	I can't do that.
	Forever he has that.
	Francine, I want to show you Exhibit 297, which is in evidence as a photo produced by Free Speech Systems.
	Do you see this photo, Francine?
	Yes.
	And this is a picture of surviving children of Sandy Hook performing at the Super Bowl in New Orleans, right?
	Yes.
	And, yeah, you could.
	for teaching.
	Thanks.
	I'm going to go, Your Honor, I just want to jam it over here.
	So you can look at your screen, Francine, but you see here, this is your son, Nate.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And here it says, ten Sandy Hook children found alive and well, and they describe another child here, Owen Roy, aka Ben Winamur, right?
	Yes.
	Who had died three months before.
	That's what it says.
	And you can pull under that please.
	And here we have Emily Parker!
	Also, according to this singing at the Super Bowl.
	Do you see here, Francine, this young boy, Jake Hoffman?
	Yes.
	That's Jake.
	Dylan's brother.
	Yes.
	See down here, Jessie Lewis, right?
	That's it.
	Jessie Lewis was killed.
	That's right.
	That's not Jesse.
	Is this what...
	Nate was shown by his friend?
	Yes.
	And a lot of comments and a lot of, I believe, a lot of doctored videos of David and me as well.
	You've seen video of Mr. Jones' broadcast in which he described pictures of children who they say are dead who are still alive?
	Yes, I've seen that video.
	Can we pull up, please, Mr. Jones?
	Exhibit 372. One moment, Your Honor, and I'll get this. I'll get this.
	Exhibit 372H, Your Honor, offered as part of Mr. Jones' deposition testimony, page 317, 318.
	18. Pull it up, please.
	Question, when you say you have a photo of a bunch of kids who are still alive that they say died, what photo are you talking about?
	Answer, I don't remember which one that is.
	Question, are you talking about the Super Bowl photo that Mr. Halbig sent you?
	Answer, that might be it.
	You said that...
	You take that one.
	Thank you.
	Fritzin, you said that this was kind of happening in the months after the Super Bowl.
	And that Nate asked you why this was happening, right?
	Yes.
	You're here during opening statements.
	Yes.
	You see that in April, Mr. Jones published a video which he titled, Crisis Actors Used at Sandy Cook Special Report?
	Yes.
	I'd like to pull up 8B. Your Honor, this is a still shot of that broadcast, which is currently in as 8A. This is a new exhibit?
	This is a photo of a video that is in it, so it's a still shot of that video.
	So 8B is a new exhibit?
	Correct.
	No objection, Judge.
	I'm just going to show you a still shot of that broadcast entitled Crisis Actors, used at Sandy Hook Special Report, published in April, April 1st, 2013.
	Thank you.
	After, um, the months after Ben's death, did friends of yours, um, start an organization to try to honor Ben.
	They actually started it only a few days after the shooting, and it was my community at my church.
	They put together this idea that they wanted to do something for youth, and they wanted to honor Ben, so I said, we should call it Ben's Lighthouse, because he loved lighthouses, and what a beautiful way.
	To remember him.
	You know, because the symbol of being a beacon.
	So they started it to do something.
	And I say that very loosely because we did a lot of things then.
	I didn't start it, so they were doing like Volunteer work with children and they would go to different places where they had trauma and they would help them rebuild houses and they would, you know, just help different communities.
	So early on after the shooting, before I had some other things that I needed to take care of and do, they ran it for probably a good two years before I became more involved.
	One of the things, well, during that time period, that two-year time period, you and David decided to find out another child.
	Yes.
	We were already older parents.
	And I used to talk to Ben and I'd say, Benny, I know That I can do this, but I need you to help me because I'm 45 years old.
	And we found a way to have a baby and I spent most of probably from the fall of 2013 and all the way through Matthew's birth in November of 2014 just focused on that.
	Getting pregnant, Going through the pregnancy and all of the hard things about being pregnant at such an older age, And then having a healthy baby in November of 2014. So that was really my focus.
	That's why my friends were running Ben's Lighthouse for me.
	And that's why I... And I insulated myself during that time.
	I still didn't watch...
	From the fall of 2013 and through 2014, I did not do much looking, much involvement of things.
	Matthew was born in late November, 2014. November 5th, 2014. The, after the, the months after the shooting, as part of your coming to terms of what happened,
	did you Participate in a radio address.
	Yes.
	What was that?
	It was in April of 2013 and during that time between January and probably May, June, I thought that If we had a moment,
	because I thought people were going to forget about Sandy Hook, so I thought, I want to tell the public that I don't want other parents to go through what I went through.
	And so I was asked by President Obama to do his radio address before a vote for expanded background checks in the Senate.
	Um, after shootings, one of the things that you felt, uh, was important to do was to help protect other children if you could?
	Yes.
	And so you supported background checks?
	Yes.
	After, um, you had Matt.
	Mm-hmm.
	And going into 2015, is that when you decided that you wanted to take a more active role in Ben's Lighthouse?
	Yes.
	I sort of, with this new baby, I felt like I had a renewed energy to kind of go back into the world a little bit and start to figure out not to,
	I call it kind of like, not Not erasing what happened, not forgetting Ben, but actually learning to live with my grief and with my joy of having this new baby and my surviving son and that I could create a new life That was different.
	Kind of like being born again, but not in a religious sense, more in a living sense.
	And so I got involved with Ben's Lighthouse and I started to become much more aware of the world around me.
	Can you tell the jury when you became more involved in Ben's Lighthouse and you were thinking about ways to Make it successful and the work that it wanted to do.
	By the way, and what is the work at Ben's Lighthouse?
	Real quickly.
	We'll get to it a little bit later, but just so everybody knows what it is that Ben's Lighthouse does.
	Well, our mission is work with youth to help them develop self-awareness so that they can, we call it, find and share your light.
	And so finding and sharing your light has to do with becoming, it's a social-emotional work that we do in our programming to help kids understand themselves and understand the world to build stronger communities.
	Find and share your light like the lighthouse.
	Yeah.
	We use literal symbols.
	That makes it easier for kids.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	But as you were starting to try and get into that work and make sure that you could do the work that you wanted to do, did you start to become aware of the extent to which Alex Jones' lies about City Hook had spread?
	Yes.
	Can you describe that, please?
	It was then that all those people who had been running Ben's Lighthouse started to tell me about the phone calls and the emails and the website and the social media and our pages and everything being...
	Attacked all the time and that they were trying to hide it from me.
	Everybody was always trying to keep it from me so that it wouldn't interfere with my My life and so they said so you know we're always trying to get people more visits to the website, but we're having trouble because of all that's out there and that is when I started to investigate What was going on out there.
	And I started to Google my name.
	And that's when I was very...
	I remember distinctly not just looking at having a friend trying to help me.
	She had a friend at Google who helped me clear my name so that we could get my name connected to Ben's Lighthouse.
	So let's just explain that.
	So the idea is that if somebody had...
	I've seen you be associated with Ben's Lighthouse and Googled you.
	When they did that, they wouldn't find Ben's Lighthouse.
	They'd find all this other stuff about you being a...
	A crisis actor.
	A crisis actor.
	And so you went to a friend of yours to see if you could make it so that the search results were actually Sheldon's Lighthouse rather than these lies about you.
	Right.
	Okay, go ahead.
	So she did.
	And we got my name cleared.
	It was a miracle.
	And then, I don't know, it could have been a couple weeks, maybe a month.
	I have no idea, but it was very shortly after that.
	It went right back.
	To crisis actor.
	And that clearing that happened, they just couldn't make it stop.
	And tell the jury, as you were looking at this, your friend Kim had told you, really very shortly after the shooting, that Alex Jones had started lying about this.
	In encountering this stuff online, did you come to a greater appreciation for Alex Jones and What's your role in this?
	I remember sometime in 2015, one night I couldn't sleep and I watched all of his videos.
	I wanted to know what he was saying.
	I wanted to know how he was describing Sandy Hook, why he was saying it, what his show was about.
	I wanted to know because I couldn't figure out how this happened.
	And so I watched them all.
	I watched them all.
	I've seen all the videos.
	And you told the jury that you had actually done some performing when you were younger.
	I'm going to go over.
	As you were looking online, tell the jury beyond seeing comments about you being an actor and seeing everything happen, tell the jury what happened to you personally.
	What were you seeing was happening here online?
	Stuff you had done?
	Well, isn't it, it's kind of ironic because I spent my adult career Being a performer.
	But a real performer.
	I loved my life in New York.
	And I loved what I was doing when I, even when I went to Newtown, I was still performing in Newtown and I had this Preschool music following, and I would bring my guitar to the library.
	I mean, I've always performed, and they took my videos and my work of 20 years, and they doctored them, and they made fun of them, and they said, look, see?
	She's an actor.
	And they took my identity.
	They took my identity.
	And then they took my husband's identity.
	took my surviving child's identity who was hiding in the gym.
	They took it.
	And even when you tried to clean it up within weeks, it was all right back up.
	Yes.
	I do want to show the jury a little bit more about Penn's Lighthouse.
	These are exhibits 561, 562, and 563. These are new exhibits concerning Penn's Lighthouse.
	I believe there's no objection.
	That's correct.
	There's no objection.
	Offer them to work.
	Francine, I just want you to spend a little time talking to the jury about Penn's Lighthouse.
	Let's pull a 561. Try 562. I might have given you the wrong order for TSR. I'm trying to get to the main page.
	563, yeah.
	I needed the reverse order, sorry.
	563, okay, here we go.
	All right, so is this the main page for Ben's Lighthouse?
	Yes.
	Okay, the Isle of Sku, Summer Camp.
	This is what it looks like right now if you go to it, right?
	Okay, so tell the jury what this is.
	So during 2015, 2016, 2017, I thought, now that my friends have to kind of hand it over to me, What are you going to do, Francine?
	So I took our mission and I said, well, finding and sharing your light, maybe I could make it more Ben-esque.
	Maybe I could take that probably perfect pitch boy who could play the piano and add music, because I know that.
	I know how to do that.
	So I wrote I wrote a puppet show program, and it's called the Isle of Sku because I know Benny had many nicknames, but Sku was one of my favorite nicknames for him.
	So I created, David designed puppets, and I made this little six-year-old puppet lighthouse keeper who His name's Sku, and he meets all these friends on this aisle.
	And I kind of say that all the friends are different personalities, kind of like Winnie the Pooh or Sesame Street, where you have somebody who's kind of grouchy and angry and somebody who's shy and somebody who's a perfectionist.
	And the children learn about Sku, and Sku's kind of like their audience.
	He asks all the questions that they're thinking.
	And we developed a camp of mentors and mentees, and now I teach the kids through this program and summer camp how to find and share your light through music, song, puppetry, volunteerism.
	And it's still going strong.
	Is the idea with these different puppets that children are able to see different ways to express their emotions and it's okay to express their emotions?
	It is, because that's how you build community.
	And I thought maybe...
	I don't connect it to the tragedy.
	However, I do say that one of the ways that I have survived this Is through my amazing Newtown community.
	And so I want to teach kids about that importance because that's how you survive something like this.
	You need those people.
	And you need to understand people's emotions and imagine what it's like to be other people.
	I believe that, sincerely.
	Were you here for when we presented Mr. Jones' testimony that he was telling his audience that the whole community of Newtown was in on it?
	Yes.
	Let's go to the mission page of the Playhouse.
	So you can just maybe read that.
	That would be 562, I think.
	Just pull up the mission and vision.
	Yeah.
	Vans Lighthouse offers the Isle of Sku program that empowers children and teens to develop the self-awareness, empathy, and social connections they need to find and share their own life through puppetry, through music, puppetry, and mentorship.
	We help young people find their unique ability to make a difference in the world, to be beacons of hope and change, to stand tall and shine bright.
	And this is something that you found as a way to honor Ben.
	Yes.
	But even today and throughout its existence, Ben's Lighthouse has been targeted by people who believe you're an actor and that Ben never existed, correct?
	Correct, yes.
	And in addition to the online harassment that you've encountered, has this lie pushed by Alex Jones made its way into your interactions with people?
	Yes.
	Can you describe what happened to you in May of 2016?
	I attended a conference called Circle of Mothers.
	It's about moms whose kids are killed by guns.
	And it's an opportunity for moms to be with other mothers that know your pain.
	Sometimes it's a conference for helping mothers seek help from Office of Victim Services and to get your Just to find the support and help that you need to move forward.
	And so I was...
	One of the moms from the 26 families said, you might want to consider going.
	So I did.
	And the second day of the conference, I was in the elevator, and there was this other woman standing there, and she was sobbing.
	And I said...
	I'm so sorry.
	Who did you lose?
	And she said, my 19-year-old son.
	He was shot and killed like a robbery in a market.
	And it happened three weeks ago.
	And I said, oh my gosh, that's so soon.
	I'm so sorry.
	And then she looked at my necklace.
	And I have a picture of Ben.
	I have Ben's ashes in a treble clef.
	And I have this picture.
	And she said, who's that?
	And I said, that's my son, Ben.
	He died in his first grade classroom at Sandy Hook School.
	And she said, what?
	I said, yeah, he died at Sandy Hook.
	And she said, you're lying.
	That didn't happen.
	And I said, it did happen.
	She said, but they said it didn't happen.
	They said it was all a lie.
	And I said, who said?
	She said, they said.
	And I said, no, it happened.
	It really happened.
	She couldn't talk to me after that.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what she thought in that moment, but I told her it was true.
	This was a...
	Conference for mothers, your lost children to help counsel one another in their loss.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	Yes.
	But also the additional experience you've had as you've tried to cope with that loss of in a world where Alex Jones' lives have spread to such an extent, I want you to tell the jury, what have you done in response to this?
	is how you dealt with this phenomenon out there of people believing that you're an actor, that Ben never existed, that Nate's experience isn't real.
	Frankly, to be perfectly frank, the way that we deal with it is that we are in therapy and we're in therapy.
	We have to have security in our house.
	We have to try and ignore.
	We have to be vigilant in our social media posts.
	We have to be vigilant on our website.
	We have to I get support from my community, whether it's emotional support, but it's hard to really describe because I can never solve it.
	I can just kind of, I think of it like plugging a hole where there's a, you know, a leak.
	But I can't, I can't solve it, so I just have to, I have to work through it all the time through Through my emotional work and help support my...
	And also because my son, who's going to be eight soon, he just found out how Ben died and I don't yet know how to tell him what's probably going to happen to him at some point.
	Because I don't know When people find out that he's Ben's brother.
	When they find out that he's Benny's brother and he starts going online someday, whenever that is, he's gonna have to handle it too.
	And I, sometimes I worry, you know, my son Nate is at college and he remains as anonymous as he can be.
	Because he doesn't want people to know.
	Have you tried to hide your identity as well?
	I often now use my middle name, Francine Lobus-Wheeler, so that it doesn't get as many bad hits as Francine Wheeler.
	You said you got home security.
	Why did you get home security?
	The security system.
	Security system in our house because I know That there's brain illness out there.
	And I know that some of these Sandy Hoaxers...
	I've seen it.
	I've heard it.
	I've read it.
	They could hurt us.
	I don't know.
	They could hurt us.
	And I have this little boy at home.
	And we live in the woods.
	And...
	It's scary.
	What are your fears for Nate?
	Nate suffers from severe anxiety and other ailments, partly due to his trauma, partly due to this after-trauma Difficult time, difficult world that he has to navigate.
	You're talking about stuff that this case is about?
	Yes.
	So I worry about him finding his own identity and what that looks like because I worry that he's never really gonna know how to really trust the world.
	And that's really sad.
	If they tell him that his brother wasn't real.
	His best friend wasn't real.
	His best friend who was killed wasn't real.
	His best friend that he heard get killed wasn't real.
	That is, uh, that's devastating.
	And I'm worried for him.
	That's all I have here.
	Thank you.
	- Attorney Pettis.
	- One moment, Judge. - Take your time. - Ms. Wheeler, I represent Alex Jones.
	Please speak to the one.
	Oh, you're on, sorry.
	We're both once. - Thank you. - Thank you.
	I think it was 2015. I don't remember.
	At least a half a dozen.
	Prior to watching those videos of Mr. Jones, did you have any idea what his views were about guns, let's say?
	No.
	After watching those videos, did you have any idea of his views on guns?
	I don't think so.
	I'm not sure.
	My focus was on...
	I don't know is probably the best way I can answer that.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Is that one of the videos you first saw when you studied his videos?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And why he believed, or why he asserted that Sandy Hooks was a hoax?
	Why he asserted unbelief?
	Yes.
	No.
	Um, Ms. Wheeler, are you, did you bring this lawsuit because Mr. Jones did you bring this lawsuit because Mr. Jones lied about you, your son and these other families?
	Yes.
	Do you care at all what any of his views are on anything other than that?
	No.
	Nothing further, Judge.
	You may step down.
	Just watch your step.
	Is this a good time for the morning recess?
	That'd be fine.
	If you'd like to do that, that's fine.
	Alright, so we will take our 15-minute recess and we will come back, let's say, 11.35-ish.
	All right, so Ron will be in charge of your notebooks, and have a nice, happy break.
	All rise, please. - Okay, sir, please take your right from the district's housework unit.
	Can you stop taking the testimony in here today or if you can move your right to face up?
	Good morning, sir.
	Good morning.
	Can you tell me the correct pronunciation you're asking?
	It's Furn Jay.
	Thank you.
	It's Furn Jay.
	My name is Chris Matty.
	I represent the plaintiffs in this matter.
	You and I previously met earlier in this vacation, and you took your deposition for related purposes to Texas.
	Do you recall that?
	I do recall that.
	Yes, sir.
	Mr. Fuget, where are you located at this point?
	I am in Austin, Texas.
	Are you currently employed by Infooms?
	Yes, sir.
	And I was able to understand Free Speed Systems.
	Free Speed Systems.
	We're hired by Free Speed Systems in 2007. Is that right?
	That's correct.
	Relatively soon after you're hired, you're promoted to operations manager, is that right?
	Relatively, I'm not sure.
	With respect to, um, Frisbee Systems, E-commerce Business, 3D Online School, Mr. Jones, Superbots, and Vault Shuts, we've already had a operation.
	Correct?
	Yes.
	In fact, um, Since you started assuming responsibilities for e-commerce activities in 2011-2012, Mr. Jones' business had grown every year, correct?
	From my recollection, that is correct.
	It's prophecy about it here, is that correct?
	I believe so, yes.
	and who are responsible for managing the infrastructures for each of those websites? - Yes.
	And we're tracking sales activity, correct?
	Yes.
	And Mr. Jones selected the products that he intended to sell on, correct?
	Correct.
	If you're understanding as the Director of Business Operations that Mr. Jones and Free Speech Systems purchases dietary supplements from third-party suppliers, Any Alice Jones product, correct?
	That is my understanding.
	With substantial markup over the purchase price, correct?
	Just like anything else, I mean, you know, if you buy a t-shirt for five bucks, you sell it for 20. T-shirts sometimes have more margins on supplements.
	The percentage thing marks him up over his Cost is determined by Mr. Jones, right?
	That's correct.
	But Mr. Jones was also involved in that operation on a daily basis, correct?
	Correct.
	And you were in touch with him on a daily basis about social performance, correct?
	Correct.
	I'm going to call you pretty much every day after this program to discuss the store's performance during the show, right?
	Yes.
	Because Mr. Jones during every show would pitch his products and encourage his audience to buy, correct?
	Yes.
	And so he would check with you on the effectiveness of his, his to his audience.
	Effectiveness measured by the amount of sales that were transacted during the show, right?
	That's correct.
	And those conversations are rather than informed which products he would sell the next day and go over, correct?
	Yes.
	And those conversations would inform his decisions about sales to him, right?
	I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
	Those discussions would inform his decision about whether to run sales on certain products, right?
	He always made the decision.
	And the decision I'm talking about here is the decision to, or the decision whether to offer a sale on particular You'll often pitch a product by informing his audience that you're often going to get for a 50% off for a particular period of time, right?
	I'm sorry, can you repeat it?
	Now, I'm just giving you an example.
	You're aware that among Mr. Jones's strategies is to tell his audience that he's offering a particular product at a discount for a specific period of time, right?
	Yes.
	And the decision as to which products to discount and the extent that a discount would be made by Mr. Jones, right?
	Yes.
	But if he chooses to use the information, he would access it every day through you by discussing the sales performance during the show, right?
	Yes.
	And if you were logged in and Mr. Jones was on the air at 3 p.m., pitching bone growth, you could see in real time how many people were buying bone growth, right?
	Almost real time, yes.
	And if Mr. Jones had a guest on for, let's say, the first hour of his show, you could see in real time how much sales activity was happening, right?
	And then, even before looking at it in real time, you would have those told to Mr. Jones out?
	If he requested them, yes.
	And that's the conversation you would have with him on a yearly basis, fair to say?
	Almost, yeah.
	If he was interested, I would give him the information.
	I never voluntarily gave him the information, but if he asked, I would give it to him.
	And you would ask the whole story out?
	Yes.
	You would say, yeah, look, whatever you did.
	Your work.
	That's correct.
	In addition to having data about revenue in your real-time employment experience, you also had data available to you about traffic on Google.com, right?
	I had access to that Google Analytics Yeah, but to see real-time on Infowars.com, The only thing I can recall viewing those numbers would be on the line of legs.
	Do you work for an analyst platform that has a great word called Alexa?
	Yes, that was a long time ago.
	And broadcast as well.
	And broadcast, yes sir.
	And each of those platforms provide a doubt about website traffic on InfoWars.com, right?
	Yes.
	And the audience traffic to InfoWars.com is relevant to you because there was a direct relationship between traffic to that website and the generated from the online store, right?
	To a certain extent, yes.
	The more people visiting InfoWars.com, the more people buying stuff at the store, right?
	Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, yeah, the more people on town square, the more people go to the shops.
	Yes, that's correct.
	And you were aware that that was...
	One of Mr. Jones' objectives in generating audience traffic to his site was to convert those audience members to the paying customers, correct?
	You would say, you know, look, whatever you did, it worked.
	Thanks.
	Thanks, correct.
	And in addition to having data about revenue in your real-time deployment, you also had data available to you about I had access to that Google Analytics account at a certain point, yes.
	Your Honor, one moment please.
	I think we may have skipped back.
	Your Honor, just one moment.
	I'll take your time.
	That's all right.
	I would tell him if there's, you know, like I just said, the more people that are in town square, the more people that are going into the shops.
	So just by default, the more people going to the news website, I mean, you're going to pick up traffic coming over to the store because we had banner ads running.
	Right, and now that during the show, he's telling his audience to the store, right?
	And now, how to get those audience members to InfoWars.com, that was Mr. Jones' purview, right?
	Yes.
	He would decide what he wanted to talk about on our board of charity developments, correct?
	Correct.
	As you testified, he was aware that you were warning that the more people that come there to the show, the more people that are coming to the store, right?
	And going back to 2016, then, is it fair to say that the InformerStore.com website was averaging approximately a million dollars in sales a week?
	That sounds about right, yes.
	So you launched InformerStore.com as a new website site in 2015?
	In part, just looking at a good job for you guys and supporting info or shop.com website, why create a whole different website?
	Why not just have somebody else come in to, you know, be the vendor that supports the website?
	Well, Alex wanted his resource.
	Alex wanted redundancy.
	In case the InfoWarsStore.com website on Magento when we launched didn't work, we could always redirect everybody back to InfoWarsShop.
	As it turns out, the website did work, but you can't take FullWarsShop.com as an additional source of revenue, correct?
	There's redundancy in Alex's eyes.
	I wanted to shut it down, Alex wanted to keep it.
	And Alex turned out to be right, because InfoWarshop.com continues to generate sales every day, right?
	To my knowledge, yes.
	It then came time in 2017 to, um, we decided to relaunch the InfoWarsstore.com website, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And we were going to use Vigento for that.
	Correct.
	This appears to be a win-off, Mr. Fuget, for you to dock to do those damages.
	It dated August 7, 2017. The subject is Magento 2-1-0 contract, right?
	And the first goal listed is to ensure a stable, technical, and design foundation to support future growth.
	So the site can hardly get about $125 million Okay.
	And that goal of 125 million annual sales was a goal that Mr. Jones set, correct?
	That is Alistair's.
	Yes.
	And over that 18 month period, regardless of who was responsible for it, but the starting running was, according to this proposal, During the 18 month period in which you all were selling stuff over at goldrestore.com, the site generated $74.4 million approximately.
	According to this?
	Yes.
	And that sounds about right to you.
	For a 10 months in that time period, approximately You testified that, I don't know about Facebook here, but that, you know, you purchase a product that is sort of complex and you mark it out in order to maximize the product you're doing on that particular product.
	Is that a fair summary of what you're talking about?
	Fair.
	Okay.
	So you will get this email, saying from Chris Allison to you and to others who have got you.
	And it's the name of your police officer.
	Right?
	Yeah, right.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And Mr. Ellison, who said, congratulations, Tim, Patrick, and Hugh.
	We've almost exceeded half a million dollars in gross sales.
	We launched in May 17th, so that's about two weeks.
	If we can continue this trajectory, you can never essentially find personal care products.
	will have about $12 million a year in annual gross sales.
	Proofs that the pudding attaches to the protocol, the numbers by CC have a Q on the street and housing up and down as well.
	Way to go, too.
	That's 400% profit on that particular line for those two weeks, right?
	I mean, they hit it.
	The number they're there.
	You testified earlier that this was a particularly high-performing product.
	Is that right?
	That's correct.
	Yeah, and it seems to me, and this is a more esteemed kind of question which we need to agree with and disagree with, that the product that Mr. Jones is promoting is all familiar with his dietary supplements.
	The majority, it's fair to say the majority of the time the products he promotes are dietary supplements.
	Is it also fair to say that the products that he promotes most consistently are the ones that generate the most sales most consistently?
	The products he promotes the most are the products that sell the best, yes.
	As you testified earlier, the key driver in revenue-free speed systems was the size of Mr. Jones' audience on the 4.com, right?
	Yes, correct.
	The more people that come into the properties, the more people go to the store, the more people buy stuff.
	Did you tell advertisers and did you believe that the best sales performance happened as a result of Mr. Jones' live pitches on the air?
	Yeah, I mean, that was part of the sales pitch.
	That's true.
	Yes, I mean, that was what I was wanting to do.
	So that was it, yes.
	The reason that I was wanting to do it is because building I don't know what he is, but Alex does his job on the show to sell products, yes.
	You were responsible for selling stuff, right?
	Alex was responsible for selling stuff.
	Yeah, fair enough.
	He was responsible for selling it.
	You were responsible for running the operation, the back.
	I was responsible for making sure everything ran smoothly on that side so Alex could sell and send them there.
	And yes, I was responsible for making sure that part ran smoothly.
	You wanted to support your success, that was responsible, correct?
	Yeah, that was my job.
	Yeah, that's what I mean.
	And so I'm saying that in pursuit of that goal, it's not controversial to suggest Engaging with that audience, thereby attracting more visitors to the website, would increase revenue, correct?
	No question.
	It would increase audience, which would hopefully increase revenue.
	Yes.
	This idea of social media engagement as a way to increase revenue was an idea that you actually discussed with Bobby Hamish, correct?
	I don't recall.
	Okay.
	So let me show you exhibit number 26. Yes.
	It is a very obvious point, isn't it?
	That the more your audience engages you on social media, the more likely they will go to Visit your store and evaluate your business, right?
	That's correct.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Part of what we were highlighting for a month is the fact that you all should be endeavoring to increase your social media engagement with your social media audience because that will result in increased revenue for the business.
	That is what is on here, yes, because it was a safe home podcast.
	That during the years, let's just say from 2012 onward, Mr. Jones' social media audience expanded dramatically year over year over year, right?
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	Yes.
	And as we've been talking about, throughout this deposition, that expanded audience lets you expand the revenue for free speech.
	I personally never had any doubt that 26 people, including 20 children and 6 educators were murdered by standing up on 7-14-2012, right?
	Never doubt in my mind.
	Mr. Jones, as far as you knew, was the individual who made decisions about what to publish on his show for the purpose of attracting clients, correct?
	Correct.
	Is that a question?
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Do you know who Don Salazar is?
	He is one of the writers, yes.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Did you know that he was the author of the article concerning the F-Cabbage Report on Destiny's Theater?
	The Trials Tower, where am I?
	You can see your number 23.
	You can see your number 48, October 14th, 2014.
	Yes.
	It's 23 p.m.
	And this is you sending it out, Salazar, screenshots of Alexa and Google Analytics Dad, correct?
	For the beer sound, yes.
	So you scroll down to the attachment.
	And you look at this.
	This is data for the last time, correct?
	I think so.
	Okay.
	And what it shows, Mr. Fuget, is a spike in traffic around September 24th, 25th, 25th, correct?
	Yes.
	And it's a noticeable spike from the rest of the line on this graph, correct?
	Yes, it is.
	And so if we scroll down to the period of time we were just looking at, there was a spike in traffic, and we scroll down to The same date range of the third week in September of 2014. Seeking it out,
	that beginning of September 24th, you agree with me that that is a two-day spike in revenue, right?
	There's a spike.
	Yes, I agree with you.
	And when you're having your daily call with Alex Jones, And you see a spike in revenue like that for $48,232,000?
	You're telling me about that, right?
	Of course.
	All right, so I wonder if I can make the same request for this.
	Yeah, because I could hear the questions.
	I could hear the answers very clearly, but the questions, it was sort of a struggle for me to, there was like an echo in some background noise, so if you could perhaps file as an exhibit the corresponding transcript like we did for the other one.
	You will do that.
	I appreciate that.
	You definitely will.
	Thank you, Your Honor.
	Okay.
	Alrighty.
	We may call your next witness.
	Excellent.
	Before we do that, we have one other video that we would like to play.
	This is a video that has been marked as Exhibit 592, aired on September 4th And
	I went and showed you on the interface, in Tim Verge, one of the manager's offices, because IT wasn't in yet.
	All the IT, I walked in, and I said, I want Google Analytics.
	Boom, highest traffic ever.
	The last one, showed you two-year, three-year breath, peeing back towards the election.
	And there it is.
	Now, this is what we're talking about here.
	Of course, Periscope doesn't show you a full shot.
	So you guys can click on the video, I won't show it.
	Yeah, there it is.
	Eyes wrapped, you have a peek right there, just right now.
	So this is what we're talking about here.
	And they know this, and I told the New York Times this, and I told them all that, but they don't care.
	They want to lie to you.
	It's what they do.
	But I want Nate to do.
	Because I know the team's over there.
	I'm gonna go to rebroadcast.
	I'm gonna walk over.
	I'm gonna get fucked.
	Hey, I'll just reach out to myself.
	I'll do myself.
	I'll do it all.
	Don't worry.
	I'm not laying down.
	I'm dying.
	love with.
	It's not happening.
	So I'm going to show you all that coming up too.
	Maybe the rebrand cast for a while, but I'll be back.
	So infowars.com, newswars.com.
	This is an incredible time to be alive.
	Unbelievable things are happening.
	And these people are just your enemy.
	They hate America.
	They are congenital frauds.
	They literally have been trained to hate the country, to hate you and your family.
	They are the enemy of the American people.
	I'll call Jackie Jubin-Barden.
	Very well.
	Good afternoon.
	Just be careful when you come up here.
	And just remain standing if you would.
	Please raise your right hand.
	You solemnly swear or sincerely affirm that the evidence you shall give concerning this case shall be the truth.
	The whole truth, nothing of the truth.
	So I'll be bad or if my penalty is for you.
	Thank you.
	You can see it.
	I just need you to state your name, slow spell your last name for the record, and then the county and state you live in.
	And just keep your voice up a little bit, please.
	Jacqueline Barden, B-A-R-D-E-N, Fairfield County, Connecticut.
	Thank you.
	Just one moment.
	I'm going to wait for Attorney Pattis.
	Do you need a moment, Attorney Pattis?
	Do you need a moment?
	No, I'm fine, Judge.
	Okay.
	Should I proceed, Your Honor?
	Thank you.
	Jackie, thank you.
	Good afternoon.
	Sounds so formal.
	Jackie, can you tell the jury about your background?
	Where do you come from and your lineage?
	I grew up in the Bronx.
	Both of my parents are immigrants.
	They both are from Ireland.
	I'm the ninth of ten children.
	My parents had a very, very good relationship.
	My father worked in the A&P and always had a second-time job.
	And my mother, when I was little, she ended up working as well.
	Yeah.
	That's it?
	That's it.
	You said the A&P. Yeah, he worked in a supermarket.
	Then always did something else.
	He was a garbage collector on the side.
	Drove a cab.
	He cleaned the A&P. I remember as a kid, me and my brother going, you know, at 10 o'clock at night on a Friday night, he would be mopping the floors and we would be running around the store.
	Getting the floors all dirty.
	um and so uh how old was your if you know how old was your dad and mom when they came over to the to this um my I'm not sure my my father will be a hundred next month um and he came here in 1947 so um and my mom you know they both met at the A&P they they came they're from different parts of Ireland and they they met when they were working in the A&P Oh, so they came over separately, but they met.
	And I think that a lot of people probably don't know what the ANP is, because I'm not sure...
	That's old.
	Well, it's a certain...
	Hand page.
	The ANP was a supermarket chain?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And so they didn't know each other in Ireland, but they met in the...
	Isles of the A&T? Yeah, actually there was a dance and my father was very quiet and my mother needed a date.
	You didn't go to a dance on your own.
	So my mother asked him to pick her up and bring her to this Irish dance.
	At the A&T or somewhere else?
	No, at like an Irish hall and he did that and they went together and they, you know, didn't hang out together.
	He just had to bring her there.
	And, I don't know, after that, they were married six months later.
	Maybe you can get some of the details on his heart birthday.
	Is that, he's turning 101?
	He'll be 100, yes.
	We're having a party for him at my house.
	He has nieces coming in from Ireland to celebrate with him.
	And so your dad and mom were both Irish immigrants.
	They got married.
	They certainly had a run with children.
	They had ten children, is that right?
	Ten children, five boys, five girls.
	Okay.
	And where do you fit in in the whole club?
	I'm number nine.
	Number nine.
	All right.
	My mother had nine children in 13 years.
	And then eight years later, when she was 46, she had my little sister.
	And so you got to be the baby?
	I was the baby for a long time.
	Okay.
	And your dad and mom, did your dad work at the A&V forever?
	For 35 years, yes.
	And other odd jobs?
	Yeah, a lot of odd jobs.
	He was always working.
	That's why he's living to 100, because he doesn't sit down.
	He still doesn't sit down.
	He gardens, he bakes, he cooks.
	He's amazing.
	And what about the kids?
	What type of environment did you grow up in?
	Crazy.
	I know Francine was saying, crazy for it.
	Crazy 10. Very close.
	Our family was very close.
	You know, everybody lived at home.
	My oldest sister moved away when she was 21, but other than that, everyone's lived in our house.
	My parents bought a two-family house because the only way they could afford a house was if they had renters.
	Over them.
	And we, you know, we had bedrooms in the basement.
	You know, we just all managed one bathroom.
	Well, one and a half bathrooms.
	My father put a bathroom in in the basement to help us out.
	So you have to take a number?
	Like, he could have brought the thing.
	So I would infer that you shared a room with your siblings your entire childhood?
	Yes, different siblings.
	You know, I had a room with my sister, Madeline.
	I had a room with my brother, Jerry.
	I had a room with my sister, Christine.
	We would switch it up.
	And in terms of your-- I assume you went to high school where?
	In the Bronx?
	Yes.
	My parents were very serious about us all going to Catholic school.
	We all went to Catholic school.
	And then pretty much after high school, it was, you know, you made your decision.
	My father was on his own when he was 15. So I think they felt like after high school you decided what you wanted to do.
	If you wanted to go to college, you know, that was up to you.
	So, you know, some of my brothers were police officers, and one brother was a fireman, and somebody else worked for the MTA. I decided I wanted to be a teacher.
	I always loved children.
	I took a first semester off, I waitressed, and then I ended up going, living at home and going to school in New York, in Dobbs Ferry Mercy College.
	And I just waitressed and lived at home and went to school.
	It wasn't really a decision.
	It was just something I always knew I wanted to do.
	And then went on and I thought, I don't want to work and have to go for my, you know, master's.
	So I continued to Waitress and living at home and I went and I got my master's in reading.
	So you did your full education before you started teaching?
	Yes.
	Is that what you're saying?
	Okay.
	And the education was that all at Mercy College?
	I also went to City College, Lehman College in the Bronx.
	Bronx also?
	Did you ever get out of the Bronx?
	I lived in the Bronx until I was 30.
	Okay.
	So I guess, okay.
	Yeah.
	And now, did there, and did you become a teacher somewhere in New York City?
	I taught in the Bronx for eight years.
	When did you start teaching?
	About how old were you?
	27 maybe, 26. Was it an elementary school?
	It was an elementary school in the Bronx.
	I started as a second grade teacher.
	I continued to live at home and then became a reading teacher and then ended up moving and teaching.
	Well...
	You're still teaching.
	Yes, I'm still teaching.
	Let's just get to the foreshadow here.
	But at some point, did you meet a certain gentleman?
	I did.
	Maybe that's a loose term.
	Two teacher friends.
	They were a married couple.
	Used to talk about their friend that lived in Nashville, Tennessee and you know always talked so fondly of him and I went to a party.
	I was invited to a Labor Day weekend party in New Rochelle in New York and there was a great band and Mark was playing and he was playing a lot of Grateful Dead.
	I'm a big Grateful Dead fan.
	Really?
	Full of surprises.
	And I didn't even know he was the person that they used to talk about.
	So we got to talking that night and my family, my parents at this point had become snowbirds and they were in Florida and It turns out that Mark had lived in the same town that my parents now then lived in, Deland, Florida, which no one has ever heard of.
	And I thought he was kind of pulling, he thought I was pulling his leg when I said that my parents lived in Deland.
	And we had a lot of other similarities.
	He ended up going to Mercy College.
	He was there a little bit before me.
	There were, you know, just a lot of coincidences.
	So we ended up talking, and he lived in Nashville, and we I guess started dating, although he lived in Nashville and I was in New York.
	So Mark, he was in the band, and what did he play?
	He's a guitar player.
	He's a very good guitar player.
	Now, were you in a relationship at the time you met Mark?
	I had just gotten out of a long-term relationship, and he had just gotten out of a long-term relationship.
	And what was it about Mark that you found attractive?
	Mark was just different than anyone I had ever met.
	He was really down-to-earth.
	We kind of laughed because one of the things I really liked about him is he showed up and he had a lunchbox with his CDs in them.
	And I thought, boy, he must be really secure with himself that he could walk around.
	I had dated somebody that was much more into, like, Everything had to be the best.
	And, you know, Mark was just so down to earth.
	What you saw was what you got.
	And I just immediately fell in love with that.
	And he played in the band and he played the Grateful Dead, so that probably hurt, right?
	So, tell us, you had a long-distance relationship with Mark for a while?
	We dated for two years.
	It's funny because I just told my daughter this, like, in the last few months.
	We dated, but we probably saw each other ten times, because we would talk on the phone all the time, but he would come home maybe once a month or once every two months, and his father had passed away right when I had met him, so he would spend a lot of time with his mother.
	To just be with her.
	So I might see him for two hours or, you know, go out to dinner and he'd have to go back and he really was attentive to his mother.
	And my daughter was like, you know, he was in Nashville and then we decided we wanted to get married and he moved back to New York and she said, you married him and you hardly knew him.
	But we had spent hours and hours on the phone.
	I mean, He would call me after his gig.
	It might be one in the morning, and we would talk till five in the morning, and then I would go to work.
	Which probably was like six in the morning.
	But you stayed up.
	Yeah, for hours.
	So you got married.
	Where'd you get married?
	Well, when Mark moved back to New York, we ended up Moving in with my brother and his family in Yorktown Heights, in New York.
	We got married in Yorktown Heights.
	And how long did you live?
	How long was it between then and having your first child?
	Child?
	We got married in 98. We met in 96. We got married in 98, and then we had our first child, James, in 2000. By that time, we had moved to Pauling.
	We bought a townhouse in Pauling.
	I still worked in the Bronx.
	Was that a long commute?
	It was like 60 miles.
	It was a long commute.
	It's Dutchess County.
	So we bought a townhouse in Pauling because my sister lived in Connecticut in Ridgefield, two sisters, so we wanted to be close to them.
	And how many, when you moved out to Paulie?
	Paulie.
	How many, it was James is the oldest.
	We had James in 2000. And then we had Natalie in 2001. And then did another.
	And then we had Daniel in 2005. Daniel was born.
	What was Daniel's birthday?
	September 27th.
	And so his birthday would have been last week.
	It would have been 17. 17. Now, can you just tell us how the Barden...
	Did you go by Gilben at the time?
	Giblin?
	Sorry.
	No.
	No.
	How did the Klan end up then in Sandy Hook?
	Well, we lived in Pauling in a townhouse and I worked in Pauling.
	My sister actually lived in Ridgefield and she, her husband went to China for, he worked for IBM and they had a two-year, he went to China and we house set for them.
	In Ridgefield?
	In Ridgefield.
	So we lived in their house and we were able to save some money.
	You know, we knew that we wanted to move to Connecticut.
	So we lived there for two years and then we just decided Ridgefield we couldn't really afford and we knew that Newtown had really good schools, so we decided that we would, after the two years was up, we went to Newtown.
	We moved to Sandy Hook.
	Now, you're working full-time during this whole time, right?
	And you've got three little kids growing up, but young kids.
	What's Mark doing?
	So Mark actually was a stay-at-home dad, and he played music at night.
	Had he stopped going to Nashville?
	Yeah, well, he was home.
	Basically, what we would do was I would work during the day, we'd come home, we'd have dinner together, and then Mark would, sometimes he'd have to travel into Manhattan.
	He had a regular Tuesday night gig in Manhattan.
	On Wednesday night, he had a regular Wednesday night gig in Connecticut, in Greenwich, and then he would pick up gigs from, you know, anybody that would hire him, he would take on the weekends.
	And I know a lot of people used to say, that must be hard, but we really felt like the kids had the best of it.
	He was a great stay-at-home dad.
	I mean, he was...
	He was so attentive, and he would take them to museums, and Mark has a lot of interests, so he would bring them to, you know, he's a big train guy, so they would go look all over for trains.
	He was always playing music with the kids.
	He just was very hands-on.
	And then he would work at night.
	So sometimes he would come home at 2 in the morning and he'd have to be up at 6 or 7 ready with the kids because I was going to work.
	But it really worked for us because We felt the kids were getting the best, and somehow we did get to spend a lot of time together.
	You know, when he was home, we weren't watching TV. We were hanging out together, talking.
	We'd have dinner together.
	I never felt like we were two ships passing, you know, that expression.
	I never felt that.
	I felt like we had a very strong relationship, even though our schedules didn't seem to jive.
	And can you tell us, you know, You know that Alex Jones said that Daniel never existed effectively, that you were actors, that you made the whole thing up because you have some motive, some kind of a motive, your fakes.
	So can you just tell us a little bit of some stories about Daniel?
	Tell the jury a couple things about Daniel.
	Daniel was our baby and because of it he got a lot of attention from James and Natalie.
	And I think because of that he was this, well he was definitely a rough and tumble.
	He was out there playing with the big boys, you know, he'd get a bloody lip, he didn't care.
	But yet he was so compassionate and thoughtful and so aware of others.
	It was, sometimes Mark and I would say like, where did that come from?
	It was strange the way he was.
	Like, An example would be, first day of, you know, school, when he was in first grade, they would come home, you would talk to James, how was your first day?
	How was your teachers?
	No, I would ask them.
	I would ask them questions about their first day.
	You know, it's their first day of class.
	How were your teachers?
	What are you thinking?
	And James and Natalie always were, you know, you know, everything's great.
	They like their teachers.
	So, in first grade, I asked Daniel, so what do you think of your teacher this year?
	And he says, I'm not sure.
	And I said, what do you mean you're not sure?
	And he goes, there was a little girl that was playing with her barrette, or she had it in her hand, and the teacher said, if you don't put that away, I'm going to take it from you.
	And I said, and he goes, don't you think that was a little threatening, Mom?
	He said, I just feel like she should have given her a warning.
	He said, I really didn't like the way the teacher talked to her.
	And I said, who's the little girl?
	And he says, I don't even know her name.
	But he really was, and I just thought, what kid thinks like that?
	He's seven, and he's worrying about some little girl that he thought was being threatened.
	And I had to explain to him, I'm a teacher.
	I said, Daniel, everyone's a little nervous.
	The teacher's trying to make the rules of For the year, you know, don't be so hard on the teacher.
	And he's like, okay, but I just, he really, he felt that.
	He felt what that little girl, you know, he didn't like that.
	He was always like, you know, There would be a little bit of milk, he wouldn't finish it.
	I have to save some for the next person.
	He was always worrying about making, you know, he would never go out the door first.
	You first.
	He was always trying to put people ahead of him.
	Can we show the jury some pictures of this young gentleman?
	Let's show first five, I'm going to move to a minute, there's no objection, 584, 585, and 586. These are all just photos.
	Correct, there's no objection.
	Can we show 586?
	Is everybody a Yankee fan?
	Oh, it's the Bronx, right.
	So you got, tell us who we're looking at here.
	It's James, Daniel in the middle, and Natalie.
	Okay.
	And you know roughly when this picture would have been taken?
	It was in, I think it was in Stone Harbor.
	It was probably 2011 in the summer.
	Stone Harbor, New Jersey.
	And can you can we look at 585?
	So that's you and Mark and...
	We were in our stairs.
	I don't really remember that picture being taken.
	I've seen it, but I... I don't really remember it being taken.
	I think it was probably, I'm guessing around the holiday of Thanksgiving when we had family in 2012. We always did Thanksgiving.
	We hosted Thanksgiving.
	My sister would host Christmas and I think one of my nieces took that.
	Mark probably remembers.
	But you think it was Thanksgiving in 2012?
	Yes.
	And Daniel's school, obligatory school shot, I think, 584. Wow.
	Yeah.
	Is this, is, was this a school picture?
	Yes.
	For his first grade?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Now, Jackie, we're going to cover this very lightly, okay?
	I just want to ask you, you know, I know you're a teacher, so you leave very early in the morning.
	When was the last time that you saw Daniel alive?
	Well, I saw him briefly that morning.
	The night before, Mark was working Thursday night, so we spent time together.
	We had our little routine.
	I would be cleaning up the kitchen, and he would go up and pick three books, and he would wait upstairs.
	Daniel would wait upstairs in bed for me.
	He'd pick his three books.
	I would go up and read to him.
	So that Thursday, he went up to get his books, and I got distracted, and I got up there late, and it was like Close to 9 o'clock and I would really try to get them in bed much earlier than that.
	And I said, Daniel, I don't think we're going to have time to read.
	And what he would always do every night was he would hear me coming and he would stick the three books under his pillow and he would lay there and wait for me to come in and I would say, where are your books?
	And he would say, I forgot to get them.
	And then I would put my head on the pillow and I would feel them and he would bust up laughing.
	He did this every night.
	So that happened.
	I said, but I said, I don't think I'm going to read to you tonight.
	It's so late.
	And he said, okay.
	And I said, I'm so sorry.
	And he said, that's okay, mom.
	He would never argue or never argue.
	Get mad.
	And I just said, okay, I'll read one book.
	Because I just, it was so, when he was sniffling, okay, mom, you don't have to read to me.
	So, of course, I tried to pick the shortest book.
	And he said, I read that while I was waiting.
	And so I read him The Principal's New Clothes was the second shortest book.
	And we read the book, or I read the book to him and I remember hugging him that night and it being, I'm usually very distracted and trying to get everything done and you know, thinking about lunches tomorrow.
	And I used to always be envious of Mark because he could really be in the moment and he could really take the kids in.
	But that night I do remember thinking this is how it feels because it was really the first time I ever, I don't know why, I hugged him and I really, I thought this is the way Mark feels every time he hugs our kids because I don't know what's weird.
	So that was the last night I had with him and In the morning I would get up earlier and usually I'd go downstairs to blow my hair because I didn't want to wake the kids.
	We had a little bathroom and that morning he did come in to me in the bathroom.
	He really liked the heat and he would want me to blow him with my hair dryer.
	So he sat on the toilet while I was doing my hair and was telling me about his new Reading partner that he had in school.
	They had just changed reading partners.
	And what were the plans for that weekend?
	Was he scheduled to go to a birthday party?
	Daniel had a birthday party to go to.
	There was a little girl in his class that was celebrating their birthday.
	Again, Mark was much more involved with the school and he knew the kids and he knew the parents and I didn't.
	So I remember that Thursday before asking Daniel about this little girl and saying like, so what do you play with?
	You know, what do you do with her?
	What do you talk about?
	And he said, oh, mommy, she doesn't talk.
	And I said, what do you mean?
	And he said, she doesn't talk, but she's really good at listening.
	He says, I talk to her.
	I know she hears me.
	I mean, he just didn't think that she was, he just accepted what he, somebody was.
	And I'm sorry to ask you that there obviously came a time that you found out something had happened at the school, is that right?
	I was in my second grade classroom, and normally I turn my phone off, but for some reason I It was ringing and it was, I think, a robocall.
	So I called Mark and told him that I had received the call and he said, I'll look into it.
	And then I think I called him again and he was still trying to figure out what was happening.
	And then at that point I Was taken out of my classroom and I sat with my principal.
	I didn't know how serious it was so I didn't leave right away.
	I remember thinking initially it must must be like the high school maybe a parent was upset and it was you know I didn't realize that it was in Daniel School and then when I did find out it was in Daniel School I'm such a denial person that immediately I just thought He's fine.
	It's Daniel.
	He's different.
	I remember saying that to my principal.
	Daniel's a different kid.
	You know, he's gonna be fine.
	Can you just tell us what hours, if you were at the firehouse, and just what hours you were there?
	I think I probably left the school at like, I'm guessing, my school in New York, in Pauling, New York.
	It's about 50 minutes away.
	I think I left there at maybe 11. I don't really remember.
	And I think we were there till, I'm guessing, 4?
	3?
	4?
	I don't, again, it's, everything's really a blur.
	And, um, and Obviously, the plans changed and you had to make accommodations for what happened.
	Do you want to give us just an overview of that?
	Of what happened after?
	Well, you had to make arrangements.
	Like, what happened at the Barton House?
	Well, we were driven home by, you know, a state trooper and our kids, Natalie and James, We're at a neighbor's house.
	Were they in the school?
	No, they were in different schools.
	They were each in a different school.
	UTEN has intermediate and then middle school.
	So people started coming to our house.
	By 6 o'clock our house was filled with people.
	And then we had to get Natalie and James and tell them.
	Now, Jackie, did there come a time when you became aware of something did there come a time when you became aware of something happening in the community or the world or your world that was related to the
	related to something about you being an actor, a fraud, a faker, something along those lines.
	I don't know the sequence of events.
	I remember, um, when hearing about Robbie being attacked, Robbie Parker.
	Um, I don't remember.
	I just, I was aware.
	I don't know if I saw it on Television, or I read it, or someone told me.
	I just remember thinking, how can that be?
	And you know from, at least from being in court, that InfoWars was on the air on the 15th, attacking Robbie Parker?
	I don't really remember.
	You never knew that, right?
	I just remember someone attacking Robbie Parker.
	I also remember Mark, being a musician, he had a markbarden.com.
	It was his music post.
	It was basically if anyone wanted to find out where he was playing or he would put snippets of music on.
	And I remember him getting upset because people started coming onto his music page and Making statements about being phony and actor and a lot of the stuff he kept from me.
	So I would get little snippets of just What he was going through.
	I also started becoming aware he had YouTube channels, and that was another place that, you know, he would post the kids playing together, being that, you know, music was so important to him.
	Natalie sang, Daniel was the little drummer, and James played bass, and he would post things on his YouTube channel.
	Nobody ever commented.
	It was basically for friends and family.
	It wasn't anything, but he started getting attacked on that.
	And did you describe Mark, I'm picturing a Grateful Dead guitar player and a pretty...
	Mark's like the calmest person.
	And did you notice a change in Mark's behavior or...
	Yes, definitely.
	Can you tell the jury about that?
	Well, I mean, he would get really angry when he would find these comments.
	You know, here they were saying that Daniel was...
	I mean, there were different things.
	Daniel never existed.
	Our son James was Daniel.
	And we're trying to, you know, Pretend that we had a loss or or some people would write about that that we killed Daniel.
	I mean it was crazy stuff that they were posting and Mark would just get really angry and You know he started becoming like you know we moved to just to Connecticut We wanted to get out of the city.
	We used to, like, leave our windows open.
	That stopped.
	It was like the windows were down at night, especially.
	He would put the blinds, he would close the curtains.
	He was always afraid somebody was going to be looking in the house.
	You know, when we would go shopping, he would, you know, be scanning and looking around to see if anybody looked at him In a weird way.
	You know, I used to, you know, we used to kind of, I mean, not get into a fight, but I'd say, like, we need to go and buy this.
	Like, you're preoccupied.
	He would become preoccupied with worrying about who's around him.
	Is this like him, or is this something that you don't observe for?
	No, no.
	He was, like you said, a grateful dead, peace, love.
	I mean, he's very protective of his family.
	I mean, very protective.
	So I felt, I think he felt like he had to protect us and he was always, especially if he was with James and Natalie, like Natalie would even know because she would say like, oh, I don't want to go to the store or I don't want to Do this because she was afraid that he might be...
	She could tell the difference in him, too.
	So the kids, or at least Natalie, you say, started to notice a difference?
	I think so.
	I definitely think that...
	He's hypervigilant.
	He's always just very aware of his surroundings.
	Just the other day we were driving into our neighborhood and there was a car in front of us and he slows down because he wants to see where the car is going.
	If they're going to slow down by our house, you know, he slowed down.
	They passed our house and then it was fine.
	But he was aware of that car.
	Did you and Mark get threatening letters or letters that gave you concern for your safety?
	Yeah, there were letters.
	Again, he didn't show me a lot of stuff, so I'm not sure exactly.
	But there were letters.
	And Mark's going to testify.
	He's the last plaintiff to testify this afternoon in the case.
	But he's going to testify.
	But to your understanding, was Mark engaged in law enforcement in relationship to threats he was getting online?
	Or did he keep that from you?
	No, I mean, I know that he did show me one letter and it talked about He showed me maybe two, I'm not sure.
	I remember one saying that they were at Daniel's grave and they had peed on his grave because they didn't think anybody, you know, they didn't believe that Daniel was buried.
	And another letter...
	These letters came to your home?
	What's that?
	These letters came to your home.
	And then another letter was that they were going to dig Daniel's grave up because he wasn't there to prove it.
	So those were two that I know.
	I don't know other stuff.
	I know my sister has gone to Daniel's grave and she has pulled up and people will...
	She has pulled up and people will leave his grave and she'll say, you know, she had a bad feeling.
	She would share with us that she had It was an uncomfortable situation.
	And did you and Mark take steps to protect the children from becoming aware of these threatening letters and other hostile...
	We really tried to not share any of that with them.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, I was just going to say we tried to make our household as happy and light as possible.
	They had just lost their brother and we And you know we really tried to hold it together.
	I remember saying like they have to have a happy childhood.
	We had worked so hard at that and we didn't want that to be taken from them.
	So we really kind of protected them from a lot of stuff.
	And so The shooting had occurred and now you were protecting, you had to protect them from this other forces out there, people infected with these lies who believed you were so despicable that you would fake your own death?
	Yeah, it was enough that they lost their brother, that they didn't really need to know then that their father was being attacked and That we were being accused.
	I mean, I did remember seeing Looking on, and I don't know what the web page was, but there was a web page that, you know, it was pictures of the three of them.
	And they would always, they would circle James and say, this is, you know, really Daniel.
	And there was another picture of my sister and her husband and Daniel, and we would go to my sister's house for dinner and they would, you know, this person isn't real.
	And this is, and that was another website that I remember coming across.
	I think I'm getting the impression that you don't have as much of an online presence as some other people.
	I have Facebook, but that's it.
	My niece started a page for our son Daniel.
	What would Daniel do?
	Probably like in January of 2013. Tell us about that.
	Have you actively reviewed that?
	No.
	It started with her, my niece has a 16, at the time her daughter was 16, and the daughter was in high school, and there was somebody that was kind of a loner.
	Her niece, her daughter said, what would Daniel do if he saw somebody that was alone?
	She went up to him and had a very short little conversation, just checking in, you know, hi, I'm Mariah.
	And they spoke and she went about her day.
	And later in the day, this boy came up to her and said, thank you.
	Thanks for just saying hello to me.
	You know, it meant a lot.
	So Mariah went back to her mother and said this.
	And my niece said, Mariah said, I thought of Daniel and I kind of reached out.
	So Jackie started this Facebook page and it was all about kindness and including others and telling stories of Daniel and all these things that he would do.
	Pictures of him, pictures of the family.
	It was just...
	So Jackie started saying that there are some people on there that would Make comments, and she was very good about, she would just block them.
	She had to block over a hundred people.
	They hit that pretty hard, didn't they?
	Yeah.
	There's an awful lot of nice, good, caring people.
	She would always highlight that to me, Jackie, there's so many good people out there, and you just...
	But it was over a hundred times that she would have to block.
	And that was back then at some point you got that account.
	What would Daniel Dill still up and running?
	Yes.
	And does that give you comfort in terms of being a memory of Daniel?
	I'm sure.
	Yes.
	Um, pretending that I saw the time, but I can't see it.
	The...
	And thank you, Jackie, for describing your observations about Mark, about this difficult time.
	I want to ask you something about your children, though.
	You said Mark was very protective.
	I'm guessing you're a close second?
	Yeah.
	Can you tell us, are your children James and Natalie?
	Tell us a little bit, are they the same kind of person?
	Are they different?
	They're different.
	James is, he's in his last year of college now.
	He's kind of quiet to himself.
	I mean, I don't know he's a typical boy you know nothing kind of uh he doesn't get too ruffled by things although he he did get a phone call um from someone late at night on his phone when he was in college um and it turned out to be a hoaxer in Utah we don't know how they got his phone um So he called Mark.
	I'm not really even sure how that went on, but he called Mark.
	What was that like as a parent?
	Was that distressing?
	Oh, terrifying.
	They spoke to him and he didn't realize even who they were.
	They were trying to, you know, they were asking him questions and he being polite, he was Answering questions.
	And then he called Mark and said, it was kind of strange.
	Somebody called me late at night.
	They said that they knew you.
	And I think Mark kind of found out who they were.
	So Mark dealt with that.
	Mark dealt with that.
	Mark has a relationship with both James and Natalie, but when Natalie calls, does she...
	She has a very good relationship with Mark, but she definitely comes, you know, she tells me more of her personal things.
	She's...
	And how old is Natalie now?
	Natalie's 20. So she would have been like 10 or 11, 10. And she's in college, right?
	She's in college, yeah.
	You don't have to say where, by the way, I know that you're anxious about that.
	But can you tell the jury, from your observations, is Natalie's mother...
	How she does?
	Right.
	Um...
	She has a lot of anxiety.
	She has a lot of fear.
	You know, when she's at home, well, I mean, going back, while she was in high school, when she would be at home, if Mark and I went out to dinner, she would be calling us.
	When are you coming home?
	When are you coming home?
	If she's home by herself, she's really, really stressed.
	She would never take a shower if she was the only person in the house because she's very afraid of being home alone.
	She'll look out just to watch for cars.
	Even when we're watching TV, she'll say, did you hear that?
	She's like, check to see if there's a car.
	She's always afraid a car is going to be pulling into our driveway.
	Was she like this before you and others were being accused of being actors and faking?
	I don't know when it started, but it was a gradual thing.
	One time we had a light out by our driveway and somebody was coming in, you know, pulled up and they wanted, I guess they thought the light was shining too brightly and it was distracting and they just wanted to let us know, you know, maybe you should move that light.
	And she went nuts, like freaked out.
	It was dark.
	Don't get the door, don't get the door.
	She was afraid that somebody was coming for us.
	And do you know how she became aware of what was going on out there?
	You guys tried to protect her, right?
	We did.
	You know, we didn't even think she was going to go to college.
	We knew she was going to go to college, but we were afraid that she wasn't going to be able to handle being away.
	And it was heartbreaking to learn that she realized when she went to college, she felt better.
	She said, when I come home, I'm afraid.
	When I'm in college, nobody knows who I am.
	And we felt terrible.
	We thought we should have moved because we didn't realize that.
	We really didn't at the time until, and I don't think she realized that.
	She didn't realize until she went away that she was better in college.
	She'll say, I feel better when I'm at a friend's house because nobody knows who I am, but when I'm home, I feel like I'm a target.
	And we did think about moving, but the kids really wanted to stay in the house.
	But it was like we didn't know what to do.
	So she's not as comfortable in her own home as she is in college because she can be more anonymous?
	Yes, definitely.
	Is that hard on you?
	It's terrible.
	It's terrible to think your 20-year-old daughter is so afraid.
	Or that when she comes home, she's so afraid.
	And Jackie, thank you again.
	Did you recently learn that despite your best efforts to protect Natalie, something happened?
	We always thought that she didn't know a lot of the stuff, but our phones are connected.
	I don't really understand technology, but I think we have the same Apple ID. So we, a lot of times, like, Mark's phone will ring and it'll be Natalie's friend on the phone, you know, he can see Natalie's, and he's like, oh, that call is for her.
	And she just told us a few weeks ago, she said, I remember seeing a pic, you know, Mark took a photo of the letter saying that they wanted to dig Daniel's grave up.
	And she had seen it on her phone, on the phone.
	And we didn't know.
	She never told us.
	But she said, I knew that Dad was getting threats.
	But we didn't know that she knew.
	You didn't know that until two weeks ago?
	Yeah.
	She kept that.
	Yeah.
	We didn't know, but she just kind of matter-of-factly said, oh yeah, I knew that he was getting threats.
	I remember seeing it on the phone that he, about that letter.
	And she kept that from you for years?
	She didn't tell you?
	No.
	We were both shocked when she told us that she knew about that letter.
	As a parent, were you...
	Oh, heartbreaking.
	That's all you want to do is protect your child.
	And she was trying to protect you?
	Thank you.
	No further questions.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Just watch your step.
	So this is good timing.
	We will take our lunch.
	You will return at 2 p.m.
	If you are going out, I don't know what the weather is like out there, but boy, it looks pretty windy.
	The trees are blowing.
	Just be careful to avoid the front steps in the courthouse.
	There may be media or press coverage there, and I certainly I want to make sure that you don't overhear anything that you shouldn't be overhearing so we can avoid any problems like that.
	I know you have the entrance that you come in and out so try to steer clear of the front steps of the courthouse.
	you'll continue to obey your rules of juror conduct and Ron will collect your notepads and I hope you have a nice lunch.
	Okay, we're ready for our jury?
	Yes, Ron.
	Okay, thank you Ron.
	I actually...
	Thank you very much.
	Appreciate it.
	Can I just give you a heads up on what we're going to do next?
	Yes, sir.
	We're going to play a number of video clips, probably take about five minutes, and then we're going to call Mark Barton.
	All right, and do you expect any issues with the clips?
	Will they be, is it the same issue that we had with the one earlier today?
	Oh, these aren't deposition.
	These are, I'll show you broadcast clips.
	Oh, okay.
	I'm sorry.
	Transcripts and other depositions that were played that had four sound.
	Those are marked as 356A. Testimony of Josh Owens, 336A. Transcript of David Jones testimony.
	So those are prepared and we can offer those.
	And Attorney Pat has seen them or not yet?
	Good afternoon, everybody.
	Hi everybody, welcome back.
	Good afternoon.
	The present will reflect that our nine jurors have returned.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, please be seated.
	Thank you, everyone.
	Whenever you're ready, I'm ready.
	Thank you, Your Honor.
	I'm going to turn it over to you.
	Thank you, Your Honor.
	Before we get to our next witness, which will be Mark Barden, the plaintiffs would like to play a series of video exhibits for the jury, beginning with Exhibit 17, Exhibit 17, senior honors already in evidence as a broadcast of the Alex Jones Show dated May 13, 2014, titled Bombshell Sandy Hook Massacre
	Was a DHS Illusion, says school safety expert.
	Very well.
	One of the big smoking guys, I know you're inside this investigation, but for folks out there, one of the red flags.
	One of the red flags is that you're looking at $29 million.
	You got the United Way, San Diego Promise, and there are 39 other community nonprofit organizations within Newtown, which received a lot of funds.
	For example, the animal shelter in Newtown, I understand.
	You're saying the motive for the locals to go along with the fraud is money.
	Thank you.
	We'd now like to play Cliff 17F from the same broadcast, May 13, 2014. You've got parents laughing, like, ha, ha, ha, watch this!
	and they go method acting.
	I mean, it's just ridiculous.
	You got coroners that start laughing, I don't mean uncomfortably, I mean like laughing with the state police I mean, it just is the fakest thing since the $3 bill.
	And you better get ready for more of it, folks.
	Thank you, Your Honor.
	What we'd now like to play is Exhibit 19-I from a broadcast of The Alex Jones Show several months later on September 25th, 2014, titled, FBI Says Nobody Killed That Sandy Hook Massacre, featuring Wolfgang Howie.
	Would they stage this?
	I don't know.
	The penguins live in Antarctica.
	Wolfgang W. Halbert is our guest, former state police officer in the Northrop Customs Department, and then over the last decade has created one of the biggest, most successful school safety training groups, and he just has gone and investigated.
	This is a $3 bill.
	General, I'd now like to display for the jury an excerpt from Alex Jones' deposition.
	This will be Exhibit 373F. 373F as in Frank?
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	And I'll read this.
	I'm sorry, Your Honor, that was 371?
	373F.
	373.
	Question, Mr. Jones.
	We both just heard the same video clip.
	Am I correct that you are on there now in October, October 26, 2017, continuing your claim that Sandy Hook is as phony as a $3 bill, right?
	Answer, I mean, that is what I said.
	Question.
	And then just a month later, on November 27th, 2017, you are talking about the Vegas shooting.
	Mr. Jones, what we are trying to show you is a video you published on November 27th, 2017, a month after again referring to Sandy Hook as phony as a $3 bill in which you are commenting on the Las Vegas shooting.
	Okay.
	Your Honor, we would now offer, as Exhibit 44A, That video, which is a broadcast of the Alex Jones Show, dated November 27th, 2017. I understand this is without objection.
	It is.
	I think it's previously been admitted.
	I made a mistake on it.
	It is not.
	44A is not.
	No objection.
	Okay, let's play 44A, please.
	So let's talk to Amanda in Tennessee here.
	You're on the air.
	What about Tucker Carlson and a helicopter?
	Let's go ahead.
	Yeah, I was wondering.
	He had a video that he obtained, I guess, three or four weeks ago, and it looked like debris, like, snuffling across the video for over half of it.
	And he said it was due to an helicopter hovering over that area, but he never went into why there was a helicopter there for so long.
	You're talking about during the Vegas shooting?
	Yes.
	Well, I know the FBI when he picked up the caller you heard earlier when he talked about the Islamic attack.
	There were big shootings all over town, helicopters being used, and the FBI showed up.
	They drug the guy and declared national security.
	He said to leave the country just over that.
	So do you think they'd be having the FBI in his house in two hours after he called in about that if it was just a rumor?
	No, they don't want that discussed.
	So Vegas is as phony as a $3 bill or as Obama's birth certificate.
	Wow.
	Isn't that crazy?
	That is so crazy.
	Now, Your Honor, I'd like to pull back up 373F for the final part of that exchange.
	Thank you.
	Question, that was you on there, right, Mr. Jones?
	Answer, uh-huh.
	Your Honor, with that, we call Mark Barton.
	Sorry.
	Your Honor, with that, we call Mark Barton.
	Good afternoon, sir.
	Good afternoon, Your Honor.
	Beautiful.
	Come on.
	Just let me stand here.
	If you don't mind, then Mr. Clark will swear you in.
	Raise your right hand.
	You solemnly swear, sincerely, your Honor.
	The evidence you told me concerning this case, so the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.
	So help you God or plant it down for your pardon.
	I do.
	Thank you.
	You may be seated.
	Thank you.
	I just need you to state your last, state your name, and slowly spell your last name for the record, and then county state that you're living.
	My name is Mark Barden, B-A-R-D-E-N, and I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut.
	Thank you, sir.
	You may inquire.
	Hi, Mark.
	Hello, attorney.
	Your wife was on earlier, right, Jackie?
	Yes, she was.
	And was it difficult to hear her explain what Alex Jones' laws have done to your family?
	It was excruciating to hear my wife in what I know to be such genuine, heartbreaking pain.
	Mark, during the lunch break, did you have occasion to look out the window?
	I did.
	Can you tell the jury what you saw?
	We looked out from the window upstairs and we saw Alex Jones holding a press conference out here on the front steps or on the sidewalk in front of the courthouse just now.
	It may still be going on as we sit here now.
	You saw Alex Jones holding a press conference at the steps of this courthouse.
	I did.
	Was Alex Jones in this courtroom when Jackie, your wife, told the jury what has happened to her as a result of his loss?
	Alex Jones was not here present in this courtroom when Jackie was explaining what has happened to her over the last ten years.
	And to your family?
	No.
	He was not here for that.
	Let me turn to a lighter subject, your childhood, maybe.
	Can you just tell the jury a little bit about, we heard about the big clan from the Giblin family.
	Can you tell the jury about your own upbringing as your character is under attack in this case?
	So I grew up in Yonkers, New York.
	My father used to do technical drawings or blueprint diagrams for a company called TCI. It was a small family-owned company and he used to do diagrams and manuals for You know, equipment, industrial equipment, printing presses, and so on.
	And my mom had a couple of different jobs.
	She was working way back when, when I was very young, as an answering service.
	Had an answering service plugging in wires into the, all in Yonkers.
	And then she was working for the plastics coloring manufacturing company, Amposet, in Mount Vernon.
	She was doing the payroll for them.
	And I grew up as almost like an only child as the youngest of three boys.
	My two older brothers were 15 and 16 years older than I am.
	So I was almost like an only child growing up.
	I went to PS 16 in Yonkers and then Sacred Heart High School also in Yonkers.
	And then, interestingly, coincidentally, started my college Journey at Mercy College in Dobbsbury, New York.
	And actually Jackie said that she went to Mercy, but was she ahead of you or after you?
	She was after me.
	And from there on in I understand she was ahead of you.
	Always ahead of me.
	And did you finish then at Mercy your four years, or did you decide to go in a different direction?
	No, so I was playing music.
	So just to back up a little bit, full disclosure, in my high school years, I was much more focused on playing guitar and music than I was on academics.
	And I'd be supposed to be doing homework, and I was actually practicing guitar.
	That carried into my first foray into college, and that just didn't go so well.
	I was playing in bands, and that's really all I wanted to do.
	And my cousin Carl, who grew up in Yonkers, and New Rochelle, he and I are closer than brothers, and we had a band together.
	In New Rochelle.
	And his family moved to that little town that Jackie referred to earlier, Deland, Florida.
	And we thought, that would be cool if I moved down there, too.
	And we started our band up down there.
	And that was the plan.
	And that's how I actually wound up moving down to Deland, Florida.
	While there, while playing music at night, I resumed my academic studies at Daytona Beach Community College, but then still did not yet finish until after we were married and I moved back here and finished at, again, one of Jackie's alma mater's Lehman College in the Bronx, part of the City University of New York, and I finally got my degree in composition.
	Music composition?
	Music composition.
	So that was about a 10-year gap or something like that?
	Yeah, about that.
	And during that time, you were essentially a full-time musician?
	Yes.
	Or as much full-time as you could muster?
	Yeah.
	And I think we learned from Jackie that you spent some time in Nashville.
	Or you're not there yet.
	Well, it depends on where you want to go in the chronology, but yeah, I moved from DeLand to Nashville to really kind of seriously focus on music, and I had a good, you know, successful time with my music there in what I called success.
	I didn't want to be the star.
	I didn't want to be the front person.
	I really I always wanted to be the side guy and support the song and support the artist, which I was able to do in Nashville and tour with a lot of country artists and really enjoyed learning that genre as well as continuing to focus on other genres so that I could be more hireable and go tour with R&B bands or rock and roll bands or country bands.
	And so, yeah, my whole time in Nashville, I was very fortunate to be working a lot.
	And in the middle of that time, I was touring with a band called The Cox Family, and they were kind of a bluegrass gospel band from Louisiana.
	And I was their lead guitar player and their band leader and We had just celebrated my parents 50th wedding anniversary and I had just gotten this gig with the Cox family and my dad was so proud of me for Forgetting that gig and he still always asked me to tell the story about the audition and all that and I was it was only a short time on the road with that band when I got a notice that that my father had been taken to Hospital and he had had a massive
	stroke and he passed away in 1996 and I had to kind of come off that tour and as Jackie testified earlier I was spending a lot of time coming up from Nashville to be with my mom who Who married very young.
	She was 22 when she married my father, and it was the first time she had ever been alone in her life.
	So I was trying to balance my career and being in Yonkers with my mom as much as I could, and that's when I met Jackie.
	And maybe I shouldn't ask you this.
	Was it love at first sight for you as well, or not?
	If you don't want to answer, that's okay.
	No.
	Jackie told that story of mutual friends whose words were, if these two ever meet, it'll be history.
	And they were right.
	And we met not knowing that they had thought that about us before we met at that party.
	And I still remember that sparkle and that wit.
	And I just felt so comfortable with her.
	I just felt like she was my person in that meeting.
	And that's how we just developed that relationship, literally over the phone.
	For the next whatever two years just talking a lot on the phone and meeting when we could she came to Nashville a few times to visit I was going up to the Northeast a bunch and then we decided we just have to do this for the rest of our lives and She still has that beautiful sparkle and I still love it just as much Did you sell her any CDs?
	Could you get her to buy any of your CDs or not?
	I never...
	No.
	I made...
	I made...
	This was cassette tapes.
	I made Christmas tapes for my family.
	I wasn't selling any CDs.
	I didn't get to that level.
	So Jackie lied on the stand when she said CDs.
	No, I had CDs by other artists in a lunchbox, a styrofoam lunchbox.
	Those were not my CDs.
	Were they pirated CDs?
	No, they were commercially available.
	So, Jackie did a lot of the legwork here.
	At some point you had kids.
	You moved to Pauling, is that right?
	Yeah.
	And is that where the kids spent their early years?
	Could I miss a step?
	No, that's right.
	We started in the upstairs at her brother's house in Yorktown Heights.
	And then we were there for about a year.
	And then we moved to the townhouse in Pauling.
	And all three kids were born while we lived there.
	But Daniel was only there for a few months before we went to Ridgefield to house sit for her sister.
	Right, okay.
	Can you tell us, Mark, you know, if somebody said, what was Daniel like?
	I know you have the website, What Would Daniel Do?
	We've learned a lot about him, actually, but can you tell us a story about Daniel that is special to you?
	There are many.
	But as Jackie testified earlier, he was very aware About others.
	He had a deep, very evolved sense of compassion.
	It was a beautiful thing to watch.
	His teachers would tell us, Daniel's the first one to help.
	If a kid needs help, or if I need help, Daniel's right there.
	And you love to hear that as a parent, that your child is being a good citizen when they're out of the home.
	But he did have this beautiful sense of empathy and concern and care for others.
	And one of my many stories that I like to tell about Daniel was we were driving Natalie to her piano lessons.
	And this was like the week before the shooting.
	And we were looking at the Christmas lights and listening to Christmas music.
	And Natalie and Daniel, James was not with us on this trip, but we were in the minivan listening to Christmas music and singing along and having a great time on the way to Natalie's piano lesson.
	This song comes on.
	And you've probably heard this song.
	It's about a young little boy who's in line at a department store to buy shoes for his mother, who's in the terminal stages of an illness.
	And Christmas shoes, and he wants her to look pretty when she goes to meet Jesus.
	And I notice as I'm driving, that song is playing, and I'm just thinking it's one of the Christmas songs you hear at that time of year, and it's very quiet in the back.
	And so I look in the rear view mirror, and there's little Daniel just staring out the window with tears rolling down his cheeks, because he's listening to the lyrics of this song, and he's feeling for that kid and that family.
	And as Jackie says, and we used to say this all the time, like, what seven-year-old kid thinks like that?
	It's heartbreaking, but it's beautiful that he had such an evolved sense of compassion for other people.
	And his life was filled with those moments of deep, genuine compassion where he was really feeling for other people.
	Can we show a picture?
	I would love to share a picture.
	No, you have one.
	No, I know.
	I'm reaching for my glasses.
	I thought you were reaching for your stash.
	No, I haven't admitted anything of my own.
	596. Full incident, Ron?
	Yeah.
	We offer it.
	I don't believe there's no objection.
	Very well.
	That was a very typical moment.
	He was a very affectionate little boy.
	And about what year would you say this was, Marco?
	I'm going to say probably 2011. Can you tell by the hairstyle?
	Your hairstyle?
	I'm constantly reinventing my hairstyle.
	I don't know.
	I'm going to say 2010 or 11. I think that was when we were visiting Jackie's sister, Christine, and her family on their vacation.
	I'm sorry, Your Honor.
	That's not the description I have for $5.96.
	Oops.
	What did you have, Ron?
	I have Daniel Barton and his siblings.
	It's $5.96.
	Well, that's...
	That's a scandal.
	We can swap those out.
	Thank you.
	I apologize for the bad side.
	And actually, now that I'm looking at this, it doesn't have an exhibit sticker on it.
	That's my bad.
	Oh, it does.
	Um, so we probably have two 596. Or just a bad description.
	We'll fix it later.
	Yeah, I can change the description.
	So the record is clear, Attorney Patish, you have no objection to this exhibit.
	Nor the other.
	Um, okay.
	So, um, Mark, uh, we heard, we heard that you, we can take this down.
	We heard that you were essentially the caretaker of the children while Jackie was teaching for a period of years, is that right?
	Yes.
	How many years was that up until, you know, December 2014?
	It was probably the whole time that, you know, I was playing music at night, as Jackie testified earlier.
	I was doing my gigs at night and on the weekends.
	And so, yeah, I was up with the kids early and with them throughout their day.
	And as they were going to school, taking them to the bus and...
	Yeah, I was just the kind of Mr. Mom, the stay-at-home dad during the day with the kids.
	And Daniel, as the third, as the youngest, he was the last one to be home during the day.
	I had other music work.
	I don't just show up at a gig and play.
	I had to prepare things, constantly preparing things, and that's what I would do when they were in school.
	But Daniel was the youngest, and he and I had the very fortunate experience of having a lot of quality time, just the two of us, while James and Natalie were in school.
	And we used to do all kinds of fun stuff.
	We used to play cards and read books and play music and go see trains and go see airplanes and play soccer and play foosball and just go on and on and on.
	I used to tell him, I used to say, I really enjoy your company.
	He was just fun.
	He was smart.
	He was articulate.
	He noticed things.
	He appreciated things.
	Right now in our driveway is our van that's finally quit, and it's the last vehicle that he rode around in.
	And that van is in the driveway, and the CDs that we used to listen to are still in it.
	And I haven't been able to listen to them since.
	To give you a sense of what we were listening to, we had a Barney CD in there.
	No, was it Barney?
	What's that pizza place?
	Chuck E. Cheese.
	They gave out CDs.
	We have that in there.
	We also had an Alison Krauss CD in there.
	We had a Steely Dan CD in there.
	And when I'd go through the radio dial, I would say, stop me when you want to listen to something.
	And I'd go through all kinds of music, and invariably it would be symphonic music.
	Stop there.
	I want to hear the ones with all the instruments.
	And I'm sorry, I could just go on and on.
	I cherished every minute, not knowing what was coming, just having that opportunity to spend that kind of quality time with all of my children.
	But for Daniel and me, we had a special thing.
	James and I had a special thing.
	Natalie and I had a special thing.
	But Daniel, because of logistics, he and I spent a lot of time in those last few years, just the two of us.
	Can you tell, we've heard a lot about Natalie and how she's been affected by all of this stuff, for lack of a better word.
	Can you tell us about the relationship between Natalie and Daniel?
	Natalie and Daniel had a wonderful relationship.
	They used to play together all the time.
	I remember, Jackie will remember this, when they came down from upstairs dressed as a bride and groom.
	Natalie was the groom and Daniel was the bride.
	They were doing a wedding thing.
	They were very little.
	They used to have their little secrets and they used to giggle about us.
	I remember Daniel sang to Natalie about us.
	We would sing a little song to illustrate a point, and he'd say, they have a song for everything.
	Yeah, it was a really happy little house.
	We used to play Big Fat Daddy on Saturday mornings and do Saturday morning living room dancing, and we had it made.
	And Jackie had told us about the night before and Daniel's little stunt with his three books.
	And that was their thing.
	But she left early in the morning.
	Can you tell the jury what was happening in the Barden household on the morning of 12, 14, 12?
	Yeah.
	Just to build on Jackie's story, we used to trade off doing books at night, and I used to love that.
	I used to love doing books.
	And so the night before that Friday, so Thursday the 13th, I had a gig, and I came home, you know, 2 o'clock in the morning, whatever, and I went around and kissed them all on their little heads, and Daniel was laying there.
	As he often would with his covers off of him in his little Yankees pajamas.
	We're not big Yankees fans.
	I know it looks that way, but he had his little Yankees short pajamas.
	And I just remember, I can remember exactly how he was laying, and I kissed his little forehead, and I went to bed myself.
	And so the next morning, the three kids, James was in middle school, Natalie was in intermediate school, and Daniel was in elementary.
	So there are three different schools, three different buses.
	And I would walk them each to their bus.
	And so, James' bus was first at like, you know, 6.30 I think was his bus, so we'd be walking out of the house at like 6.15.
	And I hear footsteps behind us, and you know, it's like the sun isn't even up yet.
	And I hear, it's little Daniel put on flip-flops, and he still has those little short pants and short t-shirt Yankees pajamas on.
	It's December.
	And he's running out behind us.
	I'm like, what are you doing up?
	And he said, can I come to the bus with you?
	I want to hug James and tell him I love him.
	So I put him on my shoulders to keep him a little warmer.
	And we walked James to the bus, and he did just that.
	He wrapped his little arms around him, gave him a sweet hug, told him he loved him.
	And Daniel and I walked back to the house, and Natalie wasn't up yet.
	I said, you know, it's still dark.
	You can go back to bed.
	And he said, no, why don't we cuddle?
	We have more time for cuddling.
	So we got on our old red couch, and we cuddled, and we turned the Christmas tree on.
	And Daniel says, look at the window, Dad.
	You can see the sunrise, how beautiful it is.
	And our Christmas tree lights are reflecting in the window with the beautiful sunrise behind it.
	Again, I thought, what kid, seven-year-old, things like that.
	So I ran and got the camera, and I took a picture of the sunrise that morning.
	I still have that picture.
	I wish I had taken a picture of Daniel.
	But he had to walk Natalie to the bus and do the same ritual with her.
	And we got back to the house and at some point in this, Jackie was getting ready and he was in the bathroom getting warmed up with a hairdryer.
	And then after Jackie left, he had oatmeal and he said, can you show me how to play something on the piano?
	Out of nowhere.
	And he had been watching Natalie's piano lessons.
	So he knew how to sit.
	He wanted to make sure he held his little hands just the right way.
	He was making sure his posture was right.
	So I taught him how to play jingle bells.
	And he played it beautifully.
	And I just thought, he's already the drummer in our band.
	He's already very in tune with music.
	He's going to be a great musician.
	And so we walked to the bus.
	And we talked about how we were having family pizza.
	We had pizza night on Friday nights with two other families in our neighborhood, and we were looking forward to that.
	It's going to be a great Friday night.
	And then I put him on the bus.
	And I know I hugged him and kissed him and told him I loved him.
	But I had no way of knowing it would be the last time.
	Were you the kind of family that locked their doors and were looking over your shoulder or suspicious wherever you went?
	Not at all.
	Well, Jackie and I were from the city, and we just thought we had hit the jackpot living in this little neighborhood with other families, with other little kids.
	There was a family down the street that had the same three age and gender kids as us.
	We just thought we hit the jackpot.
	And we loved, we bragged about being in.
	We just didn't think about locking our cars.
	We didn't think about locking our windows.
	We slept with the windows open at night.
	And it was intentional.
	And we felt so fortunate that we were able to do that and provide that kind of an environment to raise our children in.
	And we used to say that.
	We used to take walks around our block and say, we're so lucky we get to do this and raise our kids here.
	We really appreciated it.
	We never took any of that for granted.
	So yeah, we relished in that, in the opportunity to live where we lived.
	Mark, I'm going to skip a little more over the next couple days, because Jackie talked about it, I think.
	I don't mean any disrespect.
	None taken.
	Thank you.
	I want to ask you, First of all, had you ever heard of Alex Jones?
	No.
	I assume that your family or your extended family never aggrieved him in any way?
	No.
	As far as you know.
	As far as I know, nobody had heard of him.
	But had anybody ever done anything to him?
	No.
	Did you even know who he was?
	No.
	And did there come a time, Mark, when you became aware that the community, you know, the greater community or public or, you know, the world in which you were living, that there was a lie going around about you being an actor, about Sandy Buck being a staged event, about Daniel being a fraud and never existed, and things like that?
	I became aware of that.
	I had a little website, markbardenmusic.com, that I really loved because I could share snippets of my music, pictures, and I had a calendar where my gigs were coming up and pictures of the kids on there.
	And there was a guest book where people could write in.
	And I started getting this stuff on there.
	Jackie mentioned this earlier, like, you know, you're a liar, you're a fraud, and blah, blah, blah.
	I'm like, what?
	It was just completely foreign.
	I didn't understand where it was coming from, why it was coming.
	And it was really hurtful because my little music website, I've never had a Facebook page in my life.
	I had a little YouTube thing, again, to share music and family stuff, but not really a social media person.
	Anyone who knows me will tell you that, usually with a laugh.
	Did you become increasingly disturbed by that, and did it start to consume you?
	Yeah, it was disturbing that there were these anonymous people out there that were...
	I mean, and during this time, this was just...
	This was horror beyond anything we could ever imagine, trying to deal with the fact that our little boy had just been shot to death in his first grade classroom, and how to literally manage from one minute to the next, like literally manage from one minute to the next, and then also still be parents to James and Natalie.
	And still be strong for them and still give them some sense of normalcy in what we didn't understand.
	Listening to some of these other families testify, I can so relate to Robbie Parker saying my compass was spinning around.
	I had no idea where I was.
	Or David Wheeler saying I was underwater and completely disoriented.
	I get all of that.
	We were there.
	To then have to navigate, what is that noise coming onto my little music site that, again, I just felt was kind of precious and sacred.
	And then they started, I had a picture of one of my little days at home with Daniel.
	Just for fun, we had a little bath in the kitchen sink, and I had taken a picture of it because it was adorable.
	And somebody came on the website saying that that picture was actually, excuse me, but that was a picture of Daniel after I had dismembered him and killed him myself.
	And that picture was me mocking everyone else with the fact that I had murdered my son and taken a picture of him in the sink.
	You can't make this up.
	Somebody did, but this is what I was trying to, we were all trying to deal with, and I see that stuff, and we finally had to let the website go, because this hateful stuff, threatening stuff, dangerous stuff was coming in, so just shut it off.
	But I think we heard about letters that were sent to the home.
	And did there come a time or several times where you contacted the FBI and Ashley Hall had been assigned to this office?
	This lying, you know, the effects of these lies.
	Yeah, and I will be completely honest.
	I have no idea of the chronology of a lot of this, but at some point during 2013, you know, we started getting more attacks, and we started looking for, like, what are people saying, or who are these people, and trying to get our head around how large is this, because it was coming and coming, and we were getting letters in our mailbox, and Started seeing things online with clearly death threats.
	And so, yeah, we're sharing things with the FBI. We're sharing things with Newtown Police Department.
	Like, what is this?
	And it looks scary and dangerous.
	And at the same time, I was trying to keep it all quiet from Jackie.
	And some of it I kept quiet from Jackie.
	And all of it we really tried to hide from James and Natalie.
	Because like I said we are getting just trying to go from one minute to the next to try to support them through this this this horror without having to expose them to to this really scary stuff and We heard Jackie tell us about the recent news to you that despite those efforts,
	that Natalie had seen one of these threatening letters.
	Yeah.
	Had you tried to protect her from that?
	Oh, yeah.
	I secretly took that to the police and I told the police, this can't get out because my kids can't know that this is happening.
	And lo and behold, we just learned that Natalie had actually seen that letter.
	And just to give you a little context...
	Well, there you go.
	All right, we'll take a recess.
	All right.
	Good afternoon, Your Honor.
	Good afternoon.
	Please be seated.
	Alright, so I'm told that someone pulled the fire alarm in the Hub the garage.
	And I plan on just telling that, telling the jury that so they're not left to wander.
	Any objection?
	Your Honor, I just want to thank the court and the marshals for doing such a calm and professional job of getting this out.
	Well, you beat me to it, so I was going to do that in front of the jury.
	I wish I had had the, I don't take my phone out here with me, obviously.
	I wish I had filmed how professionally the marshals Did their jobs.
	One attached themselves to the jury, and the other ones attached themselves to new folks.
	Really excellent.
	And it doesn't get any better than that.
	And I just want to say, it did make a difference to the families, because obviously this is a very nerve-wracking situation.
	Thank you.
	And I was going to say that in front of the jury, but I will.
	Sorry, you can still do it, Judge.
	But I noticed that I'm going to commend him, or one juror who always holds the door, held that door the whole time for everyone to file out.
	Didn't stop him.
	Okay.
	Go on.
	What do you want to address it first?
	No, he can come back on the stand now if he wants.
	Whatever you're most comfortable with.
	And obviously you help yourself to the water there.
	Thank you.
	You will.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	That's one way to take the afternoon recess.
	Please be seated.
	Counsel stipulate that our entire panel is back.
	Yes, sir.
	Please be seated.
	I told the attorney's arrest and I'll tell you now, that was simply someone pulled the fire alarm in the parking garage, in the outdoor parking garage.
	So you were, everyone was safe and sound the whole time and I did want to commend our marshals and staff in front of you.
	And I said I wish I had, I don't take my camera on the bench, I wish I had, I would have filmed how they handled it so professionally.
	I know one of the marshals immediately escorted you all, and Mr. Ferrara went with you, and the other marshals took care of everyone else.
	And of course, our door holder over there threw the whole alarm blaring out that door until you all were out and our staff was out.
	So we have some special people in this courtroom.
	Courtroom, we have to admonish you if you did film in the courtroom.
	Oh, that's true, because I'm not localized.
	So it's a good thing my phone wasn't out here.
	All right, so I think we're ready to resume.
	Thank you.
	And the family's joined in that commendation of the staff, not staff, but our guardians here.
	I think that we were trying to figure out when the alarm went off, wait, where did we leave off?
	And I think we figured it out, Mark.
	I think you were explaining to the jury about the dynamic in the household between you and Jackie and Natalie and what it was like, give us a flavor of what it was like to have Daniel's older brother and sister, having to care for them while you were being attacked from all these different ways from what was going on with these lies.
	It nearly broke us, to be quite honest with you, because managing the shooting-murder of your seven-year-old in his classroom is about all we could manage and to try to provide love and normalcy for James and Natalie.
	And then have to manage, navigate this attack from unknown forces out there in the world that seem to be increasing and getting darker and more ominous and menacing.
	I didn't know how to do it.
	I didn't know how to do it, and first and foremost, my job has always been to protect my family.
	In normal times, I did not know how to try to navigate this grief and horror of our child's murder with his siblings, and then have to figure out what was going on with this harassment and death threats that was coming from the outside.
	And we kind of, not really consciously but realized that our family had Evolved into this kind of system of protecting each other.
	It wasn't just me.
	As we just learned, our little Natalie had learned of one of the letters that came to our mailbox that said they were going to dig up Daniel's grave.
	Daniel's grave, I don't know.
	But I don't think that James and Natalie have been there yet.
	Well, it's just too hard, first of all.
	Jackie and I have only been there a handful of times.
	I go there sometimes on my own privately, and I don't share that with them.
	It's a very hard thing to do.
	I'm kind of caught between honoring him and needing to go there, but then it's just so hard to go see your seven-year-old child's headstone.
	To hear, and so this is so sacrosanct and hallowed a place for my family, and to hear that people were desecrating it and urinating on it and threatening to dig it up.
	I don't know how to articulate to you what that feels like, but that's where we are.
	You have managed to continue to raise James and Natalie, and also Established quite a foundation for in honor of Daniel.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	We heard from Nicole about Sandy Hook Promise.
	You were one of the co-founders.
	And just to your earlier point, we are so proud of who James and Natalie have become.
	Wonderful, amazing, beautiful kids.
	And they deserve to live a normal life.
	And so what we do with Sandy Hook Promise is, quite literally, is to prevent other families from having to navigate this and having to endure this kind of pain.
	And it is a national nonprofit school safety violence prevention organization.
	And we're doing just that.
	We have prevented 11 school shootings now.
	I think we can confirm that 361 lives have been saved by students who are trained in our programs, who have observed at-risk behavior in themselves or in peers and have gotten help to them before it became a tragedy.
	Hundreds of suicides have been averted.
	We're very proud of that, and I feel it's a very appropriate way To honor Daniel.
	Who was that kid who looked out for everybody?
	He was going to go on to do great things, and he can't.
	It was taken from him.
	So this is our way of honoring his life.
	I have to ask you...
	We're going to do something pretty difficult right now.
	So just preparing you and the jury.
	Something more difficult?
	You were here during opening statements, I believe.
	I've been here every day but last Tuesday, which was Daniel's 17th birthday.
	You heard Mr. Jones, the lawyer, argue that you, along with everybody else, these families, are in fact exaggerating Your damages, quote, for political reasons, because he, meaning Alex Jones, disagrees with your point of view.
	Do you hear that?
	Yeah.
	So, we can't sugarcoat this.
	So, if it's okay, I know it's tough, but I'd like to show the jury first.
	You said that there was a performance of your children, a band, and you...
	Tell us about the band?
	Yeah, yeah, okay.
	They mean the...
	Yeah, so...
	Just almost exactly ten years ago, it was September 30th of 2012, Jackie's father, the patriarch of the family, and I've really pretty much adopted myself into my wife's family.
	And her father, the patriarch, was turning 90 last fall.
	And as Jackie mentioned, he's now turning 100. Bless his heart.
	But this video that Attorney Koskoff is referencing was, we put together our little family band to honor Papa.
	On his 90th birthday, and the family from Ireland came over.
	We had a big gathering for him on the honor of his 90th birthday, and we played one of his favorite songs, What a Wonderful World.
	Natalie sang, James played bass, and Daniel played the drums.
	And I think it was his first gig.
	And he kept really good time.
	But yeah, the family has recorded that.
	And just, we're going to show the video, but there are other videos of Daniel singing on this YouTube page?
	Yeah.
	We used to host an open mic in one of the restaurants that I used to play in.
	We would host an open mic for kids.
	James and Natalie and Jackie were there just to watch.
	And out of the middle of nowhere, Daniel said, I want to go up and sing when I'm singing in kindergarten.
	So he came up and sang, Mr. Son, Mr. Golden Son.
	And we have that preserved on video as well.
	I think that Drew would get the idea that we just show him on.
	And I don't mean to...
	So why don't we show 590...
	Actually, give me one sec, Your Honor.
	Now, sorry. . sorry. .
	I see trees and green, red roses too.
	I see a glow for me and you.
	And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
	I see skies of blue, clouds of white, bright, pleasant day. bright, pleasant day.
	I see skies of blue, clouds of white, bright, pleasant bright, pleasant day.
	The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky.
	My awesome faces, a big blue going by.
	I see friends, dragon elves, saying, how do you know?
	They don't really say it.
	I love you.
	I hear me.
	Yes, I am.
	I'm your slim girl.
	And I'm much more than I'll ever know.
	And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
	Yes, I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
	Yes, I think to myself, what a wonderful what a wonderful world.
	Um, not now.
	I'd like to offer 565. Let me back up, actually.
	That video, that beautiful video, was on YouTube at the time of payment's death, right?
	Yes.
	I'd like to offer 565 YouTube comment.
	Eight years ago.
	I need an offer for full.
	I see blue and red lights flashing outside their door, arresting the Bardens for fraud.
	That was combat left eight years ago.
	Yeah.
	566. Eight years ago.
	My only question is, who do you serve, Barton family?
	God sees all.
	Sure, I'm scared for our country, but I'm even more worried about the souls of the corrupt.
	Do yourself a favor and confess your misdeeds.
	Did you read that correctly?
	That's correct.
	567. Offered a full exhibit.
	Sorry, three years ago now.
	567, bottom.
	And this is the other video you were talking about, by the way, Mark.
	The video of Daniel singing.
	That was Mr. Sun, Mr. Golden Sun.
	Is this a full exhibit?
	I'm offering.
	Yes.
	LOL. This is so fake.
	They don't even remember what year their son died in.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	68, seven years ago.
	You couldn't possibly support a family on that guitar playing, dude.
	The whole thing is as phony as a $3 bill.
	Such a coincidence that so many of these parents are wannabe musicians and wannabe actors.
	Quote, our kids died, so please give us all money.
	LOL. Seven years ago.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	$5.69.
	Two years ago.
	Offered as a full exhibit.
	No check.
	You've been doing this series, Judge.
	Okay.
	What a...
	We have a nice comment here.
	And then right under it, two years ago, what a sick charade.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	570, four years ago.
	Offer it as a full exhibit.
	Mark Barton, why was your buddy Robert Parker smiling and laughing live on TV after his daughter was murdered?
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	571, seven years ago.
	This is a picture of you and the family.
	Is this on your YouTube, or is this What Would Daniel Do?
	That was from the What Would Daniel Do Facebook page.
	And that's a picture of you and Jackie and the three kids, right?
	Yes, correct.
	Seven years ago.
	Major photo editing in these pics.
	Try asking why the length of James Barden arm defies the laws of physics in its length at point 20. That's evidently supposed to have been a video?
	Probably, yeah.
	So at the 22nd mark, somebody noticed I've made a comment, Barden's arm defies the laws of physics in its length at 20?
	And where has Daniel's heel disappeared to it at 26 seconds?
	I wonder how James feels about his childhood vid being made into his imaginary brothers.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	What's Safe Say Something, the vision for safer schools?
	What are you referring to?
	Bring it up, 572. And am I correct, Attorney Paterson, no objection to this one.
	Do you recognize that?
	Yes.
	What is that?
	It's an anonymous reporting system that we operate in the state of Pennsylvania.
	Okay.
	Can we go to the comment?
	Three weeks ago.
	By the way, when did you see this?
	When did you pull this?
	well just um probably last week okay so it's within this last month yeah well well either while the case is going on or shortly before uh is that your understanding yes yes fema l-366 look that document up because this lying dhs owned swamp liar mark barden has continually pro profited Off of the lie that his child was murdered at a decommissioned
	elementary school.
	Did you see the video in court of Alex Jones talking about the school being a toxic waste dump being closed?
	Yes.
	At a decommissioned elementary school that had been closed since 2008 and was only being used for storage, I've printed out the actual property tax documents for the Newtown area that clearly proved that nearly every homeowner, such as Jean Rosen, Nicole Hockley, who's here in this courtroom,
	Scarlett Lewis, and Mark Barden, was bribed in the form of a forgiven home mortgage on Christmas Day 2009, One year after the school had been decommissioned and closed due to the school being contaminated with mold and other biohazards and was only being used for storage.
	Was Standing Hook Elementary School a beautiful school?
	Yes.
	Was it a clean school?
	Yes.
	Did a lot of school pride there?
	Very much.
	I was in that school a lot as a stay-at-home dad.
	I was in there reading, doing projects with the kids.
	I was in that school a lot, and it was fully functioning right up until the shooting, and it was a beautiful little place.
	Homeland Security used younger photos of older children as, quote, victim propaganda.
	How do I know they were older?
	I compared the photos to the children singing behind Jennifer Hudson at the Super Bowl just over a month later.
	One child seen there might have been just a coincidence, but not eight of them.
	And to this day, the Newtown School Board has denied sending said Children to the Super Bowl.
	None of these parents, in single quotes, lost a child.
	Mark Barden and the rest of these players are DHS-owned for life.
	There is an old saying that says that it's just easier to fool the people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
	The Sandy Hood Promise Organization is a confirmed fraud stemming from a government-fabricated event that was produced as gun control propaganda.
	O'Biden knows...
	O'Biden I guess it's a play on President Biden.
	Sorry, I'll just read it.
	Biden knows these are drills, along with Obama.
	Obama played us all with these drills gone live in the media as soon as he was elected.
	The media are in the loop that these events are drills.
	that's why the media were in Newtown on 13th.
	Would the 13th have been the day before the shooting? - Yes. - 576 after a full exhibit.
	I guess I'll just state the names, the numbers from here on in, as I understand they're all in.
	Three months ago, this is a, you see, oh this is the, this is the picture that the jury saw, is it not?
	Or maybe, Daniel kissing you on the cheek?
	Yeah.
	Somebody actually says, horrible what happened, which obviously you would agree with.
	They were paid actors, every single one of them.
	They even photoshopped pictures.
	They admitted this, wake the F up.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	577. Not a single, sorry, I slowed down a little bit.
	Five years ago, not a single tear and not even a wet eye, a parent losing a precious six or seven-year-old would have hot, salty tears at the thought of them, period.
	And that, did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	And that has 22 likes, right?
	Is that what that is?
	I can't see the likes.
	Maybe you can't see it.
	That is 22 likes, correct.
	Do you know that Alex Jones brought a lawsuit against the Young Turks for something that had 20 likes?
	Did you know that?
	Yes, we learned that in the hearing.
	And this single incident in your five years ago had 22 legs.
	Is that right?
	That's correct.
	And that wasn't true, was it?
	No.
	And that's a slanderous thing to say, isn't it?
	Objection.
	Or is that?
	Anyway, let me move on.
	578. Eight years ago.
	Adam Lanza is a fictitious character.
	He is made up of the smallest of spare parts.
	Those players with real faces whom have offered their service...
	Services for a few pieces of silver will eventually be silenced forever.
	It can be no other way.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes, you did.
	579. One year ago.
	Jackie joins Carly Soto and Jillian Soto as 911 callers, pretending to be, quote, teachers in the school.
	What a goofy, shady folks.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	Eight years ago, Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	580.
	Two years ago.
	I think we may have seen this before, this guy.
	Total hoax.
	His mom was caller number one on the Sandy Hook 911 calls, proving it was staged.
	Did I read that correctly?
	Yes.
	That's a picture of you and Jackie with a framed picture of who?
	Of Daniel.
	That you chose through that photo?
	Jackie, with her Irish heritage, would take the kids out of school on St. Patrick's Day and we'd go to the parade in New York.
	And that's Daniel in the New York City subway.
	And that's that picture.
	Total hoax, his mom was caller number one on the Sandy Hook 911 calls, proving it was stage.
	Was Jackie a caller?
	No, she was not.
	Mark, Jackie told us that you've been a different person since this all happened.
	Yes.
	And she said you go into grocery stores and you look around and you're...
	Well, can you describe for the jury what this has done to your feelings of security and safety for yourself and your family?
	Yes.
	Over time, in this time period, having to navigate all of these things and much more that you have just seen, I have developed a layer of constant hyper-vigilance, and it's exhausting.
	It interferes with your sleep.
	It interferes with your conscious.
	It interferes with your thinking, your ability to process.
	As Jackie testified earlier, we're grocery shopping and I'm looking at the faces.
	Who are we in the room with?
	Why are they looking at us like that?
	Who is this person?
	Instead of focusing on grocery shopping with Jackie.
	One of the security protocols we've installed at our house are motion sensor lights, and I have a motion sensor light right outside our bedroom window so that I know when something sets it off in my sleep.
	I get up in the middle of the night several times and walk around and look out the windows, look at the driveway.
	Everything is locked.
	Natalie used to say, Daddy, the three L's before bed, and that's lights, locks, alarm.
	And that's, and as Jackie said, I'm constantly observing the cars going, I hear a car coming up the road, I stop and I look down my driveway, who's that?
	It's just, it's constant hypervigilance.
	Who is watching us?
	What are they thinking?
	What's coming next?
	And it's exhausting.
	The word hypervigilance, is that a, uh, like a psychiatric word or is that?
	I don't know where it comes from.
	Do you know where it comes from?
	And, um, What is it like to have to be in your home and have that level of awareness?
	It's exhausting.
	And as we've heard others testify, we feel the same way.
	We are so concerned for our children that this life has been forced upon them now.
	They have to be thinking about this.
	They have to be looking over the shoulder all the time.
	Who's going to say what?
	Who's going to call them a fraud or a liar or an actor?
	And it's...
	It becomes who you are.
	It becomes who you are.
	You're constantly thinking about having to defend against that, defending your honor, your integrity, and defend our little Daniel's honor and his memory and his life and his death.
	It's constant.
	And Everything that we have to hold on to to preserve Daniel's memory, our little home movies and our pictures and our thoughts and our memories have all been compromised.
	It's all been taken away from us.
	All of our abilities to hold on to Daniel's memory and to cherish him and to honor him has been tarnished with toxic hate and lies and danger and...
	I kind of went off.
	I'm sorry.
	Yes, I've changed.
	I'm not the happy, grateful dead guitar player.
	I still play guitar, but I'm not that same person that used to just enjoy walking around the block with my kids.
	And do you have fear for your personal safety and the safety of your family?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Do they go by that you don't have that fear?
	Can you tell the jury about how often All the time.
	It's constant.
	It's literally constant.
	I watch the cars.
	I follow cars into my neighborhood and wonder who they are.
	I wonder who's stopping.
	I'm thinking of protocols.
	If there's a car in my driveway, what am I going to do?
	Somebody comes to the house.
	How do I handle that?
	It's constant.
	I have to ask a technical question, which is that you mentioned that you added home security and motion sensor lights.
	Was that something that you share finances with with your wife?
	Jackie does all the finances in our family, and yes, we Jackie and I both bear the financial burden of the security cameras and the lights and the 3Ls, all of the stuff that we have to do now.
	We share them.
	And you put those in because of these threats?
	For what reason have you put those in?
	We put in all of these systems to try to feel safe, to try to make our children feel safe.
	Jackie mentioned before, it is heartbreaking.
	To learn that our daughter feels safer at somebody else's house than in her own bed, safer at school than at home.
	And so we're just trying to put in some kind of systems, some kind of protocols or procedures to hopefully make all of us feel safer, but mostly for our kids.
	Thank you, Mark.
	Thank you.
	No questions, Judge.
	All right, so you may step down.
	Watch your step.
	Your Honor, may I have just one long question.
	I did not catch where you stopped in that series.
	Bye, please.
	Bye, baby. - 580. - 580. - Market authority. - I think 580.
	Can I hit a sidebar with Council?
	10 of 4 I think it's 10 of 4. I don't know why they would have a white clock on a white wall.
	I don't know why they would have a white clock on a white wall for the first two weeks.
	I mean, I know there was a clock.
	Do you want to know the plan?
	You want to know the plan?
	Yeah, but do you have an agreement on what the plan is?
	So, there's still an open question about Mr. Jones, but what we would propose, and I think the defense would agree to, is that we end for the day now.
	Can we look at the jury go and then we can talk?
	Oh, yeah.
	Why don't we do that?
	Because we want to work on the charge.
	Right, so we were thinking to work on the charge.
	Right, right.
	The offer proof.
	I think our thought would then be that we have probably about another 10 to 20 minutes in our case.
	Yeah, yeah, let's do that.
	That's what I'm saying.
	Alright, so the consensus is that we have some housekeeping matters to deal with that we will deal with but we can let you go until tomorrow.
	I know I don't have to continue to say the same thing over and over again because I am extremely confident that you will continue to obey the rules of juror conduct and I'm extremely confident that you will let Ron know if there are any issues in any way shape or form.
	So with that You have safe travels home.
	Ron will collect your notepads.
	Thanks for being such good sports today and following Ron out during the fire alarm.
	and we will see you tomorrow and I will stay on the record.
	Good night.
	Okay, so please be seated. so please be seated.
	Why don't you tell me, if you have an agreement on how we're proceeding, just tell me what it is, and I'm sure I'll honor it.
	Can you hear me a moment?
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	It's being on the record.
	I'd let it not be if we can do that for trial management purposes.
	We have reached an agreement.
	I like it.
	I would say an understanding.
	I knew that I did about an hour, so I didn't want to stand up and make a offer in your presence when I had every Regent on his way home that could so I didn't want to stand up and make a offer in your presence when I had every Regent on his way home that could be Okay.
	So we reached that understanding.
	The question then becomes how the court and counsel uses its time, so I won't defer to others.
	I have my ideas, but I've done all the talking.
	Do you want me to put in and talk to Drew since I've told him that the secretary was going to test him on?
	Do you want to come up with some language?
	Oh, he...
	He's made an election after that.
	Under consideration of the case at all, he's made a decision not to testify.
	Well, listen, you got me involved in that.
	You didn't get me involved, and I wouldn't feel an obligation.
	Then you can say, you guys talk and tell me that.
	I will take the hit.
	I'm representative.
	You guys talk and just give me some approval.
	Only because it's me.
	If you hadn't involved me, then I would.
	But if you're a guy tell them something, and I have to keep them.
	If you told them that, because I said it, I will take that hit if necessary.
	You will talk and let me know what to say.
	In terms of timing.
	So what we have tomorrow is basically the end of our case.
	Some videos. - I'm wrong.
	I'm thinking about 20 minutes total.
	We're going to play a handful of video clips, not depositions, broadcast.
	Then we're resting.
	I know nothing.
	Okay.
	I don't really want to bring him in over 20 minutes.
	Well.
	So can we just maybe have him come in on Thursday and just go there and then close and charge and use?
	We can come in and work on the charge tomorrow?
	Because we're not going to do a close and charge tomorrow.
	I mean, I guess we could try.
	I'm not going to have the troops ready.
	Okay.
	My question could be on Wednesday.
	I spent a lot of time with my parents to put my car on.
	I understand.
	I get the logistical issues, especially for Attorney Ferraro, so I think that that's fine if we not close and charge tomorrow.
	But, you know, we were anticipating resting tomorrow.
	I know it's not great to bring them in for that, but I also don't think it's great for us to end our case right before we close when that's not what we had been anticipating.
	Pardon me.
	Do you want to try to close in charge tomorrow?
	It just doesn't seem like that.
	Oh, is it impossible?
	I have to see the exhibits.
	I have what I'm missing.
	We're going to have to go through and make sure that I have the right ones.
	And we still have amended exhibits that we never really discussed or talked about.
	Your Honor, maybe you could also, I know there were some issues on the charge that the court was considering.
	Let me scratch the surface on that.
	Yeah, so we need to...
	You just want to do that tomorrow.
	Oh, no, no.
	I don't care.
	The charge stuff, I think, makes sense to get it done sooner rather than later.
	Sure, sure.
	you're gonna have a motion tomorrow mm-hmm I'll do it at that time, it's your case, and you didn't cause a problem, but.
	Thank you.
	I'm just trying to think of their, you know, whatever, that's fine.
	And then we're not, I knew that there were so many exhibits, too, and we've got to get them right, so I.
	So that was Ron's concern to his credit all along, that the exhibits would not be ready.
	So at least if we do it this way, we're not All right, so, and I think that the exhibits all haven't even been re-filed yet.
	I think your office is not quite current with the exhibits, because they need to not just be handed in here, they need to be in the official file.
	No, no, yeah, of course.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	We'll double-triple-check all that.
	Okay.
	All right, so why don't we, why don't we just go for half an hour on it?
	No, because I'm not, That's
	what we were talking about.
	You know, I don't believe so, but, you know, I mean, I expected...
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, it's...
	Right now, he's...
	I thought I just had a representation that he wasn't coming.
	Look, the question the court has to be is he's not going to change his mind.
	How do you know that he's not going to fly back tomorrow morning and want to testify?
	Because his attorney has represented that he's not calling.
	Well, now wait a minute.
	I've represented his left.
	I have no intention.
	What if he calls me tonight?
	He says, "I've changed my mind." What then?
	Well, then I guess we're ready to go.
	No, no, no.
	I don't believe that's going to happen, but I mean, it's a fair response to the court's I think we could put off the offer of proof, I guess, in that event, you know, until tomorrow morning.
	Yeah, I think that makes sense, because I don't think, I genuinely don't, I don't, I didn't want to get up and make an offer of proof.
	Well, look it up from the right side.
	The jury will be here tomorrow, so if he changes his mind and flies back, we'll have a jury.
	Let me talk to you.
	Ready.
	We do have a choice, so.
	Ron, any chance you could go on my desk and get right on my blotto with There's two versions of the jury charge.
	Is there any chance you could go get that for me now?
	Thank you so much.
	All right, so while Ron's getting our versions of the proposed charge, why don't we just plan on going since we'll have more time tomorrow.
	Why don't we just go to like 4.30 with the charge today?
	Put a half an hour into it.
	Your Honor, we have a couple things that we ought to just put on the record.
	I don't know that we've ever put them on the record when we weren't at Cyfar.
	So with regard, and let me just wait until it's right.
	Right, right.
	All right.
	One moment.
	All right.
	So with regard to, and this we have covered, but I want to make sure we do both.
	The common law, community damages, which would result in appraise fees and costs.
	We have agreed that the court will reserve the determination of the amount of reasonable attorney's fees and costs if those are allocated to the plaintiffs.
	I thought we already put that on the record.
	We did.
	And the reason I wanted to cover it is because the cut of these attorney's fees and costs also go to the court, but we have an agreement that that The determination of the amount will be in a later proceeding.
	That's really the point of this, Your Honor, is to say we're not putting on evidence right now of the amount of attorney's fees and costs because we have an agreement that that's reserved to a later receipt.
	And in part, that agreement spawned from the disclosure of an arguably late disclosure of an expert on the reason we saw it.
	In the run-up to trial, we agreed to defer that and our right to propose that person should that question arise.
	And I think we did put that on the record, maybe even before evidence began.
	I think we put it on the record.
	Well, in any event, it's very nice and clear right now.
	And the other issue we had, Your Honor, is that technically the plaintiff standing in for Erica Lafferty is Rich Cohen, the bankruptcy trustee.
	Throughout the proceedings, we have referred to Erica Lafferty as the plaintiff.
	We have an agreement that we will refer to Erica Lafferty on the verdict form and any jury interrogatories, and it will be then understood that judgment will enter in favor of the formal plaintiff in the case, but we'll just handle the jury interrogatories and Okay, so are we ready to go on the proposed charge?
	Yes, Your Honor.
	Where did the court want to begin?
	Well, I think...
	Just bear with me for one second.
	Did the court ever get a copy that wasn't all page 10?
	I did.
	I did.
	And it's actually got colors on it.
	It's very exciting.
	One of the things that I think Attorney Sterling...
	Was going to look at, and you were going to look at, Attorney Pettis, was the implicit bias charge, whether you thought there was a need for it or not?
	Have you had an opportunity to talk to each other on that, about that?
	We have not, so let's defer that one until tomorrow.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So on the corporation or other entity as a party, I was going to look at that.
	And I have to say I agree with Attorney Pattis on that.
	I'm not going to instruct the jury that Mr. Jones and free speech system are one entity.
	I didn't see that in the complaint.
	Let me pull the allegations of the complaint, Your Honor, then, and go over them with you, and maybe we could do that tomorrow.
	I don't want to keep kicking the can on everything.
	- Why don't we do, I looked at the-- - Let me grab a copy of the complaint, just one minute.
	- Well, Trinister only is your name, your honor.
	May I be excused so that I can inform our clients about the game plan?
	- Sure, absolutely.
	- And then they can then get on with their days?
	thank you ron would you mind getting your steps in and getting my left a part of a copy of the I think it's either on the desk or on the table.
	I'm pretty sure it's on my desk.
	I don't know.
	Let me get.
	Shoot.
	Shoot.
	And I worked off Attorney Sterling of the complaint, the operative complaint at the time the default entered.
	So, and would that be, is that Lafferty or is that Sherlock 1 or Sherlock 2?
	I looked at the Lafferty.
	Lafferty, okay.
	Operative complaint at the time the default entered.
	Yeah.
	So, I'm not sure which complaint this is.
	I'm looking...
	In the first set of allegations that go to this issue, at paragraph 34...
	Thank you very much.
	You want to just read it into the record and I'll just listen to you rather than try to pull it up.
	Yeah.
	The above-mentioned Texas business entity defendant is owned, controlled, and operated by defendant Alex Jones, an employee to hold and generate revenue for him.
	So that...
	Well, there's...
	But what the language that you proposed here is that they're one entity.
	Yeah, no, I think that's...
	We did, Your Honor, and it's shorthanded.
	And what it is shorthand for is the fact that there are allegations of agency, conspiracy, joint venture, control, all of those allegations which lead to the same place, which is that they're one actor.
	Yeah, so I'm not going to charge that they're one entity.
	Are you making a counter-proposal in other language that you want to run past Attorney Pattis?
	I can, Your Honor.
	Go ahead, Attorney Pattis.
	Given the law of the case, I feel that I can't agree to anything.
	When FSS moved into bankruptcy, the court concluded that Mr. Jones was distinct and a solvent defendant such that the action could proceed.
	Well, that's not, but that's a different court.
	I'm looking at-- SPEAKER 1: Here, with FSS moved into bankruptcy, which was in the extended state, we proceeded into bankruptcy.
	We agreed to a lift of state, but we never agreed that they would be treated as one.
	They were treated as two-- SPEAKER 1: But I didn't make any finding along those lines.
	I simply pointed out in my order that Mr. Jones hadn't declared bankruptcy.
	Well, that's what you're reading into it.
	I just recognized that he had not filed bankruptcy and still has not filed bankruptcy.
	For that reason, I feel that I can't – I'm going to assert an opposition.
	All right.
	Your Honor, so I think the other thing to point out is that all the allegations in the complaint are as against both of these defendants.
	So that, you know, the idea for purposes of the default, the complaint establishes that they're doing the same thing.
	That's another reason to treat them as the same.
	I don't know if that's necessarily true.
	I can imagine a universe in which viability as to FSS is larger than Well, I'm going – I'm not going to consider the language as proposed.
	If you want to propose something else at some other time, you can do that.
	I mean, the only evidence in the case has been along the lines that he makes all the decisions and controls.
	So if you want to make some counterproposal, I'll consider it.
	Okay.
	But at this point – Thank you, Judge.
	Okay.
	So let me see where we're up to with that.
	So I think, did we address...
	Alright, corporate designee testimony we addressed.
	We deleted that sentence by agreement.
	Responsibility for actions of others.
	Who broadcast on InfoWars.
	We did that?
	I thought we had, Judge.
	Yeah, we did.
	I think we had resolved that one completely.
	Okay.
	Adverse inference.
	Did we resolve that?
	Your Honor, in the interest of moving things along, we're not going to claim that one.
	That's the Duba Dondi test.
	Right, you were going to think about that, okay?
	Yeah, we did think about it and we're not going to press that.
	Would you, since you have, do you mind making changes once again?
	I don't mind, Your Honor.
	Attorney Pattis in the court?
	Okay.
	That direct and circumstantial evidence.
	I think we agreed on that.
	Okay.
	Credibility of witnesses.
	Agreed.
	Use of depositions.
	Agreed.
	All right, expert witnesses.
	Did we finish that?
	We did, Your Honor.
	I think I prevailed on one word, otherwise.
	And I see that that's at the top.
	May I be seated?
	- Yes, you two attorneys. - I see in line six of page 16, what I believe is what we discussed yesterday.
	Am I correct?
	Changing, making your decision, I believe, to considering. - That's correct. - Okay, agreed.
	So, causes of action.
	I was going to see how cumulative the nominal damages charge was.
	I never got a chance to count it up, but I did say we'll come back to this.
	I can't do it sitting down, Judge.
	I apologize for standing up.
	You know, I gave some thought to this overnight.
	You know, and I understand the Court's concern here.
	And I'm mindful of the Court's question yesterday about, you know, what is the appropriate charge here?
	How can you give a nominal damages charge?
	And here's the issue I'm running into.
	The court is instructing the jury on certain facts which are established by the default.
	One of those facts is the fact that each plaintiff suffered severe emotional distress as a result of outrageous conduct by Mr. Jones.
	Those are not, I mean, the question yesterday was, well, how could you have damages in the absence of evidence?
	The answer is, The facts that the court is instructing, those are equivalent to evidence, right?
	That is an instruction about what the facts are.
	And so where that takes us then is the question of what can the jury do?
	What discretion does it have in the face of severe emotional distress?
	And the answer to that question is in the Maldonado case, that recent case written by Justice Ecker, where he says, and this was with regard to pain and suffering, but once the evidence of pain and suffering is established, the jury is not free to reward zero damages as compensation.
	So that's where I think we land with regard to emotional distress, Your Honor.
	And that's the problem with the nominal damages charge.
	I disagree with Attorney Sterling's reading of it and repeat what I said yesterday.
	I look for guidance to the question of proof of damages in a case arising under 42 United States Code 1983 where this is a common problem.
	If a plaintiff proves the elements of the offense but fails to prove damages, And so I think what Justice Ecker said is zero is an inappropriate amount, as it would be in a 1983 case.
	The proper answer is $1.
	Now having opened, you know, having made that finding by way of a default, is they can persuade the jury to award them, but they're not relieved of the responsibility of proof, and so our view is the nominal damage charges is correct.
	Well, I'm not, so why don't we, um, let's come back to whether we need to leave it under clauses of action.
	If it's five or six other places, let's look at it in context, but I understand your arguments.
	Okay.
	Intentional infliction of emotional distress we have no problems with, right?
	Right.
	And falsely an evasion of privacy we had no problems with.
	Am I right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so now we're at defamation.
	Yes.
	And the defamation language is the court's proposal.
	I had proposed one, which was a rejection of our proposal.
	I had proposed one change in the language, which I feel is important.
	And we were waiting on Attorney Pettis' response to that change in the language.
	I don't recall what that was.
	It's right there in the red line.
	Hopefully we all have the same page numbers on page 21. Yeah, I'll agree with the charges.
	I had a chance to check my proposed charges in my notes.
	I couldn't recall what I proposed these books on the phone yesterday.
	So I will agree with the plans charged on page 21. All right.
	Proximate clause I have in my notes here.
	I have to work on this, so I'll work on that.
	So we're tabling that one for now?
	Well, I'm going to try to do it tonight.
	Do you have anything to add to what we talked about?
	I'll be happy to hear you again if anyone has anything to add on that.
	Yesterday's session was preserved.
	Yes, indeed.
	I don't think we have anything to add at this time.
	Because we primarily accepted the court's charge and then just made a few redline suggestions.
	Well, now I'm going to have to comment.
	I mean, as I said yesterday, I think that the plaintiffs try to compress proximate clause into what's for claustration.
	And that I take to be the thrust of their, what they might refer to as minor edits, I view that as a sea change in what's required.
	Okay.
	So now we're on standard or proof damages?
	Just give me one second.
	Excuse me, Your Honor.
	I'm going to join Mr. Matty.
	That's fine.
	Have a good afternoon, Chief Thomas.
	So, Your Honor, at the beginning of this charge, we had the same nominal damages problem.
	So, your Honor, at the beginning of this charge, we had the same nominal damages, and the And we do continue to object to that.
	Your Honor, though, I feel like we went through this yesterday because I had an objection to the instructions regarding weight, and my memory is that I was overruled.
	That is correct.
	So what's hanging there is how the court treats nominal.
	Damage is compensatory.
	Can we finish this?
	I think this is where we got bogged down and decided to quit for today.
	We might do that again today.
	We've got ten more minutes.
	So, I agree.
	I think this is where we got bogged down.
	And I think we hang up on the nominal issue again here in the middle of this charge.
	All right, besides the nominal issue, what else can you tell us?
	We had agreed to change injuries to harms.
	Attorney Paterson agreed to that and I see I've missed some.
	At the end of that charge, There is a portion regarding non-economic damages.
	It's the last two sentences.
	All right.
	I don't see any reason to explain that when we're not formally seeking economic damages.
	So I think those two sentences should come out.
	I think they're entirely appropriate in the testimony you just listened to.
	Money is for harms they've suffered, likely to suffer in the future as a result of the defendant's wrong conduct.
	They are awarded for such things.
	I don't know that we need physical pain and suffering, but they are awarded for such things as mental and emotional pain and suffering and the loss of diminution and the ability to enjoy life's pleasure.
	I think I just heard three days of anger.
	I'm just looking at it, Judge.
	Take your turn.
	So I think if we take out the physical pain and suffering, that makes it better.
	I would agree to that, Judge.
	I agree.
	Alright, what else besides the nominal damages issue in this section?
	I don't recall that there was anything else.
	I think I already lost on our objection to guess and speculate.
	That's my memory of yesterday.
	I can remake that argument, but my memory is I was overruled.
	That's correct.
	Alright, so now we're, is that it for that section?
	Your Honor, if I may, I just want to look at it one more time overnight, and I don't think I have anything else that I would like.
	Okay.
	Okay?
	All right.
	Damages for invasion of privacy and emotional distress.
	So we have not talked about this yet?
	Correct.
	Okay, so just give me So your plaintiffs comment I Your Honor, we think this is appropriate and tailored.
	Right.
	And I did not keep track of, has every plaintiff testified?
	Yes.
	So we can drop that line?
	Yes, we can.
	So you'll do that?
	Yes.
	Once I find it, I'll drop it.
	All right, Attorney Patis.
	I mean, I did an extensive comment.
	I'll rely on the comments that I made here, other than to note that I have a scrivener here and there.
	The simple, the last, next to last sentence should end with the clause, unlike defamation, it's saying that it is simple and requires no neurotic destruction.
	Right.
	I am going to leave that in.
	I think it's helpful for the jury.
	Okay, so that takes us to Damages for rival and slander per se.
	Just give me a moment to get up to speed.
	All right.
	So what's where do we need to go first?
	What's the first line we're tackling?
	The position is that the court's charge is an accurate and adequate statement of the law and no revisions are necessary.
	All right, so your first proposed addition?
	Yes, Your Honor.
	It's, it's, um...
	To repeat to the jury what was established to be defamatory.
	So the first, what I'm requesting to be included is actually the same language that comes out of the defamation per se liability charge.
	So that language is already accepted.
	In the defamation, per se, liability charge.
	And our view is that much like the plaintiff's concern about repeating, there's no need to repeat this more often.
	I actually think it's helpful, so I accept that first addition.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Then, proceeding through the charge, The sentence that begins, in determining the amount of general damages to award for the injury to a plaintiff's reputation, you should consider what reputation the plaintiff had.
	In the community is the charge, that is, that's the standard language, that's the charge that the court adopted.
	I don't think that in the community is...
	I think it's actually confusing in the modern world, right?
	Because which community?
	People have multiple communities.
	People exist in an online community, but community suggests a physical community.
	So I think it's really a problem, and that the better wording is what I propose, which is to knock it out.
	I can't disagree with that, Attorney Pattis.
	Possibly, although they put on no evidence about their reputation prior to these events.
	So I'm not sure they're entitled to that at all.
	I certainly disagree with that.
	No one testified to this.
	They're wonderful people.
	I'll concede that based on what I saw of their testimony, that I didn't hear a single person testify that it was worse than before or after all this occurred than before.
	If anything, it had become more sympathetic.
	Iconic.
	I'm surprised to hear that either.
	I think that, I mean, one of the reputations that these people, these families had was as the parents of children who were killed at Sandy Hook.
	What it says, though, in determining the amount of damages for the injuries for plaintiff's reputation, you should consider what reputation the plaintiff had when the statements were made.
	What evidence is none?
	I disagree with that.
	I think there's significant evidence about who these people were.
	Before Alex Jones defamed them.
	They were parents, certainly, and lovely parents.
	And the reputation in the community is not Well,
	actually, I think that they were understood to be the parents and family members of people who were killed at Sandy Hook.
	And so that was their reputation, one of their reputations, before Alex Jones defamed them.
	Being a citizen is a reputation, it's a state.
	It's a classification.
	A reputation is what others think of you.
	You're standing in the world to regard with which others hold you.
	There has been no evidence of that.
	None of that.
	That's just not true.
	The evidence that they were grieving family members of...
	All right, so I think I'll take out in the community.
	Should just consider the plaintiff's reputation or should consider what reputation the plaintiff had.
	I actually like you should consider the plaintiff's reputation when statements were made.
	Alright, so next.
	Yes, Judge.
	So here what we have asked to do, if the Court remembers our original proposed charge, we had a long description of the things that the case law provides for jurors to consider as their determining reputational harm.
	And one of the reasons I thought this was really important is because I think reputational harm is something that the more you think about it, the more you understand it.
	And what reputational harm means in an internet age is changing.
	And so I think it's absolutely necessary that the jury have some guidance here.
	I understand that the court was not comfortable with instructing the entire list.
	That was a long list.
	That was a long list.
	So I have to give them some guidance here as to what they should consider.
	What do you suggest, Attorney Pattis?
	This is a pretty short list.
	Is there any...
	Well, I think it's revision.
	We're free to argue that.
	And they're free to argue anything they like that's supported by the evidence that you let them argue.
	But I don't think the court should endorse their theories of the case.
	And I don't think the Internet age presents need for a special charge.
	I think that the charge on LIBOM's standard per se covers what they're looking for without drawing undue attention to the theories of the case that they want to argue.
	So I think this will bolster in Marshall's.
	I agree with that.
	I think just leave it You should consider all the circumstances surrounding the making of the statements, and you can cover that in your closing argument.
	Your Honor, I know I don't have to, but I'll say for the record, we accept that.
	That's important guidance.
	All right, so where are we next?
	Then if we proceed down the, in addition to general damages awarded, Let me just get there.
	What are you?
	Page 34. Page 34, the line out.
	So we're not seeking compensation for special damages in this case.
	And so...
	I think that the charge on specials is, you know, it doesn't make sense.
	And Attorney Patis and I had actually discussed that.
	So that's by agreement?
	Well, I wanted to give him an opportunity to look at it, but I think we had discussed that before.
	Well, if you're not saving compensation for special damages, why would I charge them?
	Exactly.
	- No defamation per se, even.
	Because isn't that the point in part of defamation per se? - No, defamation per se gives rise to general Right.
	So we're not seeking, you know, there's not going to be an itemized, we'd like to be paid back for this, that, and the other thing.
	Okay, so if that's not going to be our view, that's fine.
	Okay.
	Now we're on page 35.
	Yes.
	And why don't we end with this section of the charge, okay?
	Okay, so we'll finish this up and pick up the cover tomorrow.
	Okay.
	So then, just so I'm clear, Your Honor, the line out continues through compensate the plaintiff for his or her loss.
	We're taking that out.
	Then, I had proposed, the language is, if you find that the plaintiff has suffered a violation of his or her legal rights as a result of the default, Plaintiff's legal rights have been violated, so it should be each plaintiff has suffered a violation of his or her legal rights.
	And then here, these damages may not be nominal or substantial.
	So this is...
	I think that the posture of the emotional distress and the defamation per se is slightly different, right?
	The emotional distress under IIED has established severe emotional distress.
	So here, you know, I understand that there could be nominal damages for reputational harm.
	But I think that needs to be explained.
	So when we had talked about nominal damages before, you see here the thorough explanation of when nominal damages could be awarded in a defamation per se situation.
	What we're then asking is that the court balance that nominal damages instruction with the other side, right?
	You know, that's the situation for nominal damages when the plaintiff is, the defamatory material is of an insignificant character because the plaintiff has bad character.
	It looks like a big balance to me.
	What do you say, Attorney Paris?
	I don't think it is a balance.
	I think that it's their burden to prove more than nominal, even in the posture of a default.
	And so it's a false equivalence, this balance.
	There is no balance here.
	They start at nominal and earn every dollar beyond that.
	And to suggest there is a balance should proceed with an open question.
	And it should proceed with the presumption that they're entitled to more than a dollar.
	My view is if we start with a dollar and everything more than that they prove, they get.
	What suggests that you're not proving a dollar?
	I'm missing something.
	If on the other hand...
	The standard charge, I think, is clear.
	Nominal damages are awarded when they are the only damages claimed in the plaintiff's purpose of any character by the jury.
	That, I think, okay, that's not clear.
	Excuse me.
	I think what the plaintiffs continue to do is object to the presence of nominal damages, and they want to say that we start with the presumption of war.
	And even in a default situation, they're entitled only to what they prove.
	And so our view is that if they can't prove more, they get no more.
	I thought this really actually highlights the nominal damages.
	is.
	These damages may be nominal or substantial.
	Nominal damages of one dollar may be awarded.
	Then there's a really long sentence there.
	Then if, on the other hand, so they're, I mean, the nominal damages are getting more fair time.
	They're getting recast.
	I mean, to my view, We need to talk about the circumstances under which they get more.
	If, on the other hand, you find a defamatory subsistemic character, or because you've defined the plaintiff had a good character, and again, it's not character, it's reputation, so substantial harm has been done, or you find there's proof of serious harm, then you may award very substantial damages.
	That's hard.
	The law is that damages our Your Honor, I think that misunderstands the law of defamation, per se.
	The injury is established.
	The plaintiff is entitled to recover as general damages for injury to his or her reputation and for humiliation and mental suffering.
	That's the law.
	May I finish?
	The standard charge gives the jury guidance about when it can find nominal damages, and it's basically saying, as I read it, you gotta go backwards, right?
	What that nominal damages instruction, which comes out of the standard charge, says when you can award nominals is if the defamatory material is of an insignificant character because you find the plaintiff had a bad character, So that no substantial harm has been done.
	So that, I mean, that's what the standard charge is telling us.
	So what I'm trying to do is simply balance it out.
	Balancing in this case means inflating the value of no proof.
	And if there were a plant that had no proof of damages, the donor would be left saying, well, they've got substantial damages, so I guess we've got to give them more than nominal, but how much?
	And it's the plaintiff's burden to prove that.
	That's not it at all, Your Honor.
	What we're dealing with is a default on intentional torts.
	And so the facts established by the default carry weight in the damages determination.
	They do.
	So, you're right, I really agree with- They don't deliver the goods.
	The plaintiff is entitled to the same day run, and the biggest number they think that this evidence supports, but it's a number that the jury has to give because they're persuaded by a preponderance of the evidence that that's a fair, just, and reasonable award.
	In the absence of any proving, it's not normal.
	Otherwise, what's the number?
	Let's end on this.
	I'll look at it tonight.
	So what we'll do tomorrow is, after we send the jury home, we'll plan on finishing up, hopefully, and I'll tell you what I've decided and then we can finish it.
	It doesn't look like there's that much left.
	I thought you were...
	I know that we left it off that you...
	Sort of pretty much assured me that you would work on that and you didn't think that you would have a problem.
	I think we need to work on that and I think what the court does with the charge may inform that that we will certainly handle it.
	But that's how I remember specifically LaCole you felt very confident that You'd be able to work together on that.
	If not- We certainly will work together.
	Whether we'll agree is a different question.
	Right.
	Have you done anything so far on it yet or not yet?
	We have not.
	All right, so that should be something that you try to do first, but that was my recollection.
	So hopefully, okay, what else?
	A few more things, Your Honor.
	So we filed a supplemental charge Two sets of supplemental charges and I apologize, I think the docket number of one of them is 1006. That's the life expectancy charge.
	Then we filed another set of supplemental charges which had an eggshell stalled.
	The charge that we've been bringing to the court and having rejected about the identity of the, you know, not needing to name the plaintiff.
	And a charge about charging out First Amendment, Second Amendment arguments, and a charge about missing information.
	So that, all that briefing is in.
	And then, oh, and we filed our brief on ascertainable loss already being decided.
	And I'll have something on that tomorrow morning.
	I saw their brief this morning.
	I didn't compose it this morning.
	I was preparing for something else today.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Safe travels home and we'll see everyone tomorrow at 10. We're adjourned.

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