Dark Journalist - DARK JOURNALIST: JIM MARRS: JFK ASSASSINATION - SPOOKS, LIES & DOPPELGANGERS
Aired: 2014-04-15
Duration: 01:49:27


=== The Truth Behind Assassination (07:20) ===

[00:00:06]  Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
[00:00:08]  Today I have an exciting interview for you with author Jim Mars, who wrote the best selling book Crossfire The Plot That Killed Kennedy.
[00:00:16]  Now, Jim Mars is recognized as the foremost expert in the JFK assassination.
[00:00:21]  Together, we will examine the perplexing web of events that led to the removal of JFK from power, plus the massive cover up that followed.
[00:00:29]  Now, we are going to look at the deepest aspects of this case from Oswald Doubles to the tampering with the Spruter film to the Hall of Mirrors of intelligence operations in Dealey Plaza.
[00:00:40]  Get ready for this one.
[00:00:42]  Here we go Jim Mars, The JFK Assassination Spooks, Lies, and Doppelgangers.
[00:00:59]  The very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society.
[00:01:04]  And we are, as a people, inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
[00:01:15]  We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it.
[00:01:28]  Now, see, none of this makes sense.
[00:01:31]  When you try to think of it in terms of a low level plot, but when you understand that the assassination in November of 1963 was a palace revolt, it was a true coup d'etat involving elements of the military, the FBI, the CIA, the mafia you know, hello.
[00:01:55]  Jim, first let me congratulate you on the new edition of Crossfire.
[00:01:59]  It's outstanding.
[00:02:00]  Of course, the first version was a basis for the Oliver Stone movie JFK.
[00:02:04]  And now it's thoroughly updated with all the new evidence.
[00:02:06]  Just a great read.
[00:02:08]  Thank you.
[00:02:08]  Now, let's start from your final conclusion in this case, which you've researched so well, and work our way back from there.
[00:02:18]  I've been on it since the get go.
[00:02:21]  And, okay, Daniel, here's the bottom line of the Kennedy assassination.
[00:02:26]  It all comes down to a question of belief, okay?
[00:02:30]  Right.
[00:02:31]  If you believe and if you trust the federal government of the United States, Then you believe everything they tell you.
[00:02:38]  And if you believe everything they tell you, then I will be the first to admit that the evidence, as they presented it to us, is pretty damning and incriminating against Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin.
[00:02:50]  But if you have the slightest doubts, the slightest suspicion about the veracity of the federal government, and let's think now light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam before the Tet Offensive.
[00:03:04]  I'm not a crook, says.
[00:03:07]  Nixon.
[00:03:08]  Nixon, just before he resigned, before they impeach him for criminal acts.
[00:03:15]  No new taxes.
[00:03:16]  Read my lips, says George Herbert Walker Bush.
[00:03:18]  And then he ups the taxes and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, of course.
[00:03:24]  And then now we've got if you like your health care policy, you can keep your health care policy.
[00:03:29]  Do they lie to us?
[00:03:31]  Only continually.
[00:03:32]  So once you question the evidence that's presented by the federal government, then the case against Oswald falls apart.
[00:03:41]  And we begin to realize that there was much more going on.
[00:03:45]  Anyone could have killed Kennedy.
[00:03:48]  Mafia hit men, disgruntled rogue CIA agents, sure.
[00:03:53]  But the question is who benefited the most from the crime, as any good detective would first ask, and who had the power to subvert a truthful investigation?
[00:04:07]  That now leads you to the truth of the assassination.
[00:04:10]  And what is the truth?
[00:04:12]  Well, the truth is that the evidence is clear that at the level of the federal government, there were these crimes committed in connection with the Kenny assassination suppression of evidence, destruction of evidence, fabrication of evidence, alteration of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses.
[00:04:30]  Now, if you and I committed that in connection with a capital crime, that is a violation of the law, and we become, if nothing else, accessories after the fact.
[00:04:43]  And under our legal system, we're considered as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger.
[00:04:49]  Well, then, who's guilty in the Kennedy assassination?
[00:04:52]  And it comes down, I can give you two names.
[00:04:54]  These are people who, in a fair and honest courtroom, could be found guilty.
[00:04:59]  And that is his successor, Lyndon Baines Johnson, and his next door neighbor and buddy, J. Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI.
[00:05:08]  Now, can I prove that those two men orchestrated or ordered the assassination?
[00:05:12]  No, I cannot.
[00:05:13]  But what I can prove beyond any deniability is the fact that these two men both took actions that blocked any meaningful investigation into what actually happened, which makes them.
[00:05:27]  Accessories after the fact.
[00:05:29]  Right.
[00:05:29]  Case closed.
[00:05:30]  If you look at it from the bottom up, whoever killed him, whoever passed the gun, whoever was driving the cars, low level people, you know, if that was all there was to it, then any good investigation would have uncovered all this.
[00:05:45]  But when you consider that the cover up is handled at the absolute highest levels of political power in the United States, then it becomes clear on how they were able to misdirect any truthful investigation.
[00:05:59]  And then you go back and you find that on the Monday following the Friday assassination, just the day after Oswald had been killed in the basement of the police station, when a country was in shock and everybody was still in just, you know, awe and speculating on what had happened, we get Nicholas Katzenback, who, running the Justice Department for the grieving Bobby Kennedy, writes a note and says, you know, the thing we must do is prove that Oswald was the lone assassin.
[00:06:30]  Same thing with John J. McCloy, a very powerful member of the Council on Foreign Relations, a real mover and shaker, who was a high commissioner of Germany after the war and then was one of the leading bankers loaning money to Hitler before the war.
[00:06:44]  Oh, right.
[00:06:45]  Yeah.
[00:06:46]  You know, and then he sits on the Warren Commission, and then he made the statement in one of their early meetings.
[00:06:52]  He said, The thing that is of paramount importance is we must prove to the world that America is not a banana republic where the government can be changed by conspiracy.
[00:07:04]  Well, that was their mandate.
[00:07:06]  That's what they wanted to do, and that's why they came up with their lone assassin theory, which was nothing more than a theory.
[00:07:15]  In fact, there are, as you well know, innumerable facts and evidence which point to the opposite direction than lone assassin.
[00:07:25]  Right, exactly.

=== Interest-Free Money and War (03:01) ===

[00:07:26]  Well, Jim, when you think about JFK's presidency and the forces that were involved in removing him, what do you think the central reason was for them to take that kind of drastic action?
[00:07:38]  Number one, I don't think there was one central reason.
[00:07:42]  I think there was about two or three central reasons.
[00:07:46]  And in fact, the assassination happened because there was a confluence of reasons.
[00:07:55]  The top two or three would be number one, I think he had decided he was going to withdraw from Vietnam, no Vietnam War.
[00:08:04]  And what I go with is the National Security Action Memorandum 263 of October the 11th.
[00:08:12]  1963, in which he said he agreed with the McNamara report, which said that they could withdraw all United States military personnel by the end of 1965.
[00:08:25]  And then in that memorandum, he said, Make no formal announcement, but begin the withdrawal of 1,000 American troops.
[00:08:35]  And so he was going to disengage us, and I'm certain he never would have allowed the introduction of ground combat troops in.
[00:08:45]  In Vietnam.
[00:08:47]  Because you see, the Vietnam War really didn't get cranked up until after the phony Gopher Tonkin incident in August of 1964.
[00:08:55]  Right.
[00:08:58]  And so that was when the war began, and that was under Johnson.
[00:09:02]  So, number one, he was going to stop the Vietnam War.
[00:09:05]  Number two, in June of 1963, he issued $4.2 billion in United States notes.
[00:09:14]  These are silver backed.
[00:09:16]  Certificates issued through the Treasury Department rather than through the privately owned Federal Reserve System.
[00:09:24]  And in doing so, now that money was intrinsically not worth any more than Federal Reserve's notes, but the big difference was we didn't have to pay interest on it.
[00:09:34]  Right.
[00:09:36]  And so he became the second president in U.S. history to issue interest free money.
[00:09:42]  And of course, we now know that we're what, $16, $20 trillion in debt, more than we can ever pay back.
[00:09:48]  We're a debtor nation now.
[00:09:51]  And the way to stop that is by issuing interest free money.
[00:09:56]  So he became only the second president in U.S. history to try to issue interest free money.
[00:10:02]  The first being Abraham Lincoln, who printed up his own greenbacks in the Civil War.
[00:10:08]  The war between states.
[00:10:09]  Yeah.
[00:10:10]  Right.
[00:10:10]  Okay.
[00:10:11]  Now, Daniel, I don't personally think that it was just some kind of sheer coincidence that both of those presidents who tried to issue interest free money were shot in the head in public.
[00:10:22]  Yeah, right.
[00:10:23]  Absolutely.
[00:10:24]  This is the bankers striking back.

=== Police Car at Rooming House (13:52) ===

[00:10:27]  That's right.
[00:10:29]  When you look at where the state of this case is now, the JFK assassination, where do you think we're at?
[00:10:36]  You know, we have the public and poll after poll, over 70% believe it was a conspiracy, and the establishment and the corporate media pushing back.
[00:10:46]  That's right.
[00:10:46]  The people aren't buying it.
[00:10:48]  I'll tell you where we are and where we're going.
[00:10:52]  I'm often asked, will we ever know the truth about the Kennedy assassination?
[00:10:55]  And I try to tell them, you're not asking the right question.
[00:10:59]  You know, because we know the truth right now.
[00:11:02]  What you're actually asking is that, will there come a day when they'll have a national press conference and some, you know, leading government figure will get up and say, okay, okay, here's what really happened to Kennedy?
[00:11:16]  No, that ain't going to happen.
[00:11:18]  All right?
[00:11:18]  There's just too much involved, too many people's reputations, too many institutions' reputations.
[00:11:25]  It ain't going to happen.
[00:11:27]  But as far as do we know the truth, we know the truth right now.
[00:11:32]  And all you have to do is study the facts of the case.
[00:11:35]  Well, let's take a look at some of the more unusual and very telling aspects of this.
[00:11:40]  So we'll start at the movie theater where the cops have gathered to find a suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippett, which they will tie into the JFK murder.
[00:11:49]  But some unusual things were happening there at the Texas theater.
[00:11:52]  Can you walk us through that?
[00:11:54]  Yeah.
[00:11:54]  Well, I'm going to talk about the arrest of late Harvey Oswald.
[00:11:58]  First, the whole thing is just pretty outrageous just on the surface.
[00:12:05]  Basically, we're told that the President of the United States had just been assassinated in their city, and one of their own police department officers had been shot in South Oak Cliff.
[00:12:18]  So the whole city's in a buzz, and then the police dispatcher gets a call from the Texas Theater and says a man may have sneaked in without paying his admission.
[00:12:29]  Well, they rushed 15 squad cars, assistant district attorneys, some FBI people, and including men who claimed they were CIA.
[00:12:37]  We don't know who they were.
[00:12:40]  And all of them, they go out and surround the theater.
[00:12:42]  And the next thing you know, they haul out Lee Harvey Oswald and rush him down to the police station.
[00:12:51]  Right.
[00:12:52]  There's going slightly off topic here.
[00:12:57]  There's, in regards to this, a very small little detail, but then the devil's in the details.
[00:13:04]  And also, we're kind of the general idea we have, the public has the general idea that circumstantial evidence is, you know, not all that good.
[00:13:15]  What we want is the Hard evidence, the fingerprint, the smoking gun.
[00:13:19]  So, what I'm getting at is that according to FBI documents that were released in the 1980s, two hours after the shooting in Dallas, J. Edgar Hoover is on the telephone to Bobby Kennedy, the attorney general, and he says, We have a man in Dallas.
[00:13:37]  It's Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:13:39]  He's an ex Marine.
[00:13:40]  He had defected to Russia.
[00:13:42]  He's pro communist.
[00:13:43]  He is a, quote, mean spirited individual in the category of a nut, end quote.
[00:13:49]  Two hours after the shooting, when everybody doesn't even know for sure what happened, because keep in mind, regardless of what the government has said, there is absolutely no unimpeachable witness who actually ever saw Oswald shoot from the window.
[00:14:05]  And yet, two hours later, Jager Hoover's got a whole rundown on him and says, We got our man Dallas, and he's a lone nut, basically.
[00:14:16]  And yet, at that same time, he had just arrived at the Dallas police station.
[00:14:20]  And he had two sets of identification on him.
[00:14:23]  One was League of Cardiology Oswald, and the other was the draft card that said Alex James Heidel.
[00:14:29]  And they're saying, well, you know, which one are you?
[00:14:31]  And he's being uncooperative.
[00:14:33]  He said, you're the cops, figure it out.
[00:14:35]  Right, he doesn't admit to it, yeah.
[00:14:37]  Right, so whoa, wait a minute.
[00:14:39]  But Hoover's got it all nailed down.
[00:14:42]  Doesn't that just smack of prearranged evidence and prearranged scenario?
[00:14:48]  Yeah, how did he know?
[00:14:50]  How did he know?
[00:14:51]  Well, that is fascinating.
[00:14:53]  So take us back into the strange story of what happened at the theater.
[00:14:57]  All right, now back to Oswald's arrest.
[00:14:59]  So once we understand that there's all kinds of things going on here, we go look at the arrest and we find that Oswald and the Tippett murder are somehow intertwined.
[00:15:12]  That doesn't mean that Oswald did it, but it's interesting because after he arrived back at his rooming house, the landlady said that moments before Oswald showed up, A police car pulled up out front, and she said she knew some of the boys.
[00:15:29]  She said, but she looked and she didn't recognize the car, and she couldn't really remember the number, but she thought it had a one and maybe a zero.
[00:15:39]  Well, Tippett was in car 10 that day, and he was outside of his assigned to beat area.
[00:15:48]  And in fact, about that time, they were trying to radio him, and he didn't respond.
[00:15:53]  So, based on all kinds of information, It seems that Tippett may have driven over to Oswald's rooming house, and right after Oswald had arrived, and then tooted his horn, beep, beep.
[00:16:08]  Okay.
[00:16:09]  Right.
[00:16:09]  The landlady looks out, doesn't recognize the car, and she sees the car pull on down Beckley Street and then turn right on Zang.
[00:16:17]  And then just moments later, as if on signal or cue, here comes Oswald hustling out of his room.
[00:16:26]  He doesn't say anything, goes out front, and she sees him heading to the right.
[00:16:30]  Down towards Zhang.
[00:16:32]  I think I just, now this is theorizing.
[00:16:35]  Sure.
[00:16:35]  I think Oswald turned the corner, got in Tippett's police car, and I think Tippett drove Oswald to the Texas Theater for whatever purposes.
[00:16:46]  This, by the way, explains how Oswald was able to travel more than a mile from his rooming house up to Jefferson Street and to the Texas Theater, and nobody saw him.
[00:16:58]  I can still clearly remember that day, Daniel, and it had rained and was kind of cool in the morning, but by 10 o'clock it had pretty well cleared off, and by noon, and for the rest of the afternoon, it was bright.
[00:17:09]  Sunny Indian summer here in Texas, and it was a Friday, and you know, the president was in town.
[00:17:15]  And this is, by the way, from a lot of people prior to air conditioning.
[00:17:22]  And so, you know, there would have been people sitting out on the front porch and out in the yard, wandering all around.
[00:17:28]  They would have seen him, somebody would have seen him, somebody would have seen him, and nobody, nobody, they've never come up with anybody who saw Oswald walking, running, trotting, or anything.
[00:17:38]  Well, you know, that's what those people.
[00:17:39]  Well, you mentioned other witnesses who saw somebody else, right?
[00:17:43]  Right.
[00:17:44]  The witness they have, Helen Markham, is not credible because she said she bent down and talked to Tippett, and yet the medical examiner and the autopsy showed he was hit in the heart, so he was dead before he hit the ground.
[00:17:59]  There's other oddities, too.
[00:18:00]  His pistol was out of the holster and lying under his body, and so it's apparently.
[00:18:08]  Well, anyway, so the scenario seems to be that.
[00:18:11]  Tippett, after dropping Oswald off at the theater, then pulled a caddy corner across the street to the Big Ten record store where he had a custom of going in to use the telephone because this was the day before cell phones.
[00:18:28]  And he stopped, rushed in there right about 1 o'clock, rushed back, got on the telephone, but apparently was not able to connect to whoever he wanted to connect with, so he rushed back out, not saying anything, which is kind of unusual because usually he'd stop in, shoot.
[00:18:43]  The bull, say, How are you?
[00:18:44]  Socialize a little bit, use the phone.
[00:18:47]  Okay?
[00:18:47]  And it was at that exact time, right at 1 o'clock, that the dispatcher tried to radio him and he didn't respond.
[00:18:55]  Well, that's because he was out of his car and he was in the record shop.
[00:18:59]  So then he goes, jumps in his car, starts heading west on Jefferson, then turns north and gets to 10th, and then starts heading back east on 10th.
[00:19:09]  And just after passing Patton Street is where his car was stopped in the Roadway there, and then they found him.
[00:19:15]  And so, according to all the evidence, apparently he was heading in that direction, which may or may not have any pertinence, but he was heading right in the direction of Jack Reeve's apartment, which is very close over there now.
[00:19:30]  Whether it has any connection or not, we don't know.
[00:19:32]  But so he sees somebody walking down the street, and he pulls over.
[00:19:37]  And according to some witnesses, they had a conversation with him in the car and this other person on the sidewalk over there, and yet.
[00:19:47]  The crime scene photo showed the window, the right hand window of the police car is rolled up.
[00:19:52]  It's kind of weird.
[00:19:53]  It's like how do you have a conversation through a closed window?
[00:19:56]  Yeah, right.
[00:19:57]  But then, whatever took place apparently got his suspicions up, and he gets out of the driver's side of the police car and draws his pistol.
[00:20:08]  And as he's walking around the left front fender of the car, whoever is up on the sidewalk there shoots him two or three times, one of them in the heart.
[00:20:17]  He's dead when he hits the ground, and his pistol's lying under his body.
[00:20:21]  So he had actually drawn his pistol.
[00:20:23]  So there was something serious going on there.
[00:20:25]  And then what was really not known at the time, but was confirmed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations, was after he'd been hit two or three times and was on the ground, the killer walks up to him and gives him a coup de grace shot in the head.
[00:20:40]  Shot in the head.
[00:20:41]  Okay.
[00:20:42]  Yeah.
[00:20:42]  So, in other words, this was not a case of someone shooting the cop trying to escape.
[00:20:47]  This was somebody who wanted Tippett dead.
[00:20:50]  Yeah.
[00:20:51]  Okay.
[00:20:52]  And then whoever did the shooting.
[00:20:54]  Took off, and then you got the best witness is T.F. Boley, who was coming down the street and heard the shots and stopped.
[00:21:01]  He looked at his watch, and it was about 10 after 1.
[00:21:05]  Okay.
[00:21:05]  And that's probably when it actually happened.
[00:21:07]  Now, the Warren Commission had to move that way back to about 1 20 by citing the man who, and I think it was Boley, who got on the radio and said, We have an officer shot down here.
[00:21:24]  But if you'll actually read the details, You'll find that a Hispanic fellow named Buenavides actually was the first on the scene and tried to use the.
[00:21:35]  And of course, he waited.
[00:21:36]  He said he heard the shots, knew something had happened, saw the policeman on the ground.
[00:21:41]  He was quite rightly fearful that the killer might be around and might try to kill him.
[00:21:45]  So he kind of hid and looked for a while when he couldn't see anybody.
[00:21:49]  Then he finally went up there and then he got in the cop car and he was trying to use the radio, but he didn't know how to use it.
[00:21:55]  And so you can figure there's anywhere from five to ten minutes.
[00:22:00]  Floating around there, and then when Boley shows up, he says, Here, let me, and he gets in there and he uses the radio.
[00:22:06]  By this time, it's like 1 16 or 18, something like that.
[00:22:10]  I think maybe almost 1 20.
[00:22:13]  And that has been the time that the Warren Commission used as the time of the shooting, but it's not true.
[00:22:19]  It was actually just shortly after one.
[00:22:22]  And why is that important?
[00:22:23]  Well, because if there had ever been a fair trial, I could have produced at that time three separate witnesses that can place Oswald in the theater.
[00:22:34]  Shortly after one at the time.
[00:22:37]  So he obviously couldn't have been in the theater and shooting Tippett, too.
[00:22:42]  So the Tippett shooting takes place at the same time as he goes into the theater?
[00:22:47]  Yes, actually a little bit afterwards.
[00:22:50]  He was in the theater by a little after one, one oh five maybe, okay?
[00:22:56]  And in fact, Butch Burroughs, the assistant manager of the theater, he had to really work with him and he had to go over his story over and over and over again.
[00:23:05]  But he finally explained to me.
[00:23:08]  That Oswald came in the theater much earlier than the Tibbetts shooting.
[00:23:14]  In fact, that he had come out and that Butch Burroughs had sold popcorn to him and then watched him go back to a seat.
[00:23:23]  Another one was Jack Davis, who at that time was an 18 year old kid who wanted to go see the war movie.
[00:23:31]  Now, picture this he's in a big old theater that holds 900 people, and there's only about 20 people in the whole theater, and they're scattered all around.
[00:23:43]  So he's back at the back over in the right hand section, about third row down, and a few seats from the aisle just by himself.
[00:23:51]  And here comes this guy, comes in the theater, gets on his row, squeezes past him, and sits in the seat next to him.
[00:23:59]  Wow.
[00:24:00]  He's like, whoa, wait a minute.
[00:24:02]  And of course, he's going, wow, what's this?
[00:24:05]  But the guy didn't say anything.
[00:24:06]  He didn't say anything.
[00:24:08]  And a few minutes later, the guy gets up, pushes through it past him again, goes over to the other side, to the central part of the.
[00:24:16]  So he was trying to meet someone, you think?
[00:24:18]  Trying to meet somebody.

=== Officer McDonald's Mistake (09:28) ===

[00:24:19]  And that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:24:23]  And he said that all this happened just as the time that the show was starting.
[00:24:27]  Well, the show, according to the Butch Burroughs and according to the advertisements, the actual picture started at 1 10.
[00:24:35]  So, in other words, 1 10, Oswald's in the theater.
[00:24:39]  Wow.
[00:24:40]  So that really would exonerate him from the tippet side of the show.
[00:24:43]  Exactly, yeah.
[00:24:44]  And that, see, this is very important because all these years they've used the argument well, you know, he shot the cop.
[00:24:51]  Why would he shoot the cop if he hadn't shot the cop?
[00:24:53]  The president.
[00:24:54]  Right.
[00:24:54]  Well, let's just turn it around.
[00:24:57]  If he didn't shoot the cop, maybe he didn't shoot the president.
[00:25:00]  Yeah.
[00:25:01]  Yeah.
[00:25:02]  Excellent point.
[00:25:03]  Well, there's something about the shell casings at the scene that's problematic.
[00:25:06]  Right.
[00:25:07]  They don't match.
[00:25:08]  Yeah.
[00:25:09]  There's an officer named J.M. Poe who, quite correctly and according to proper police procedures, took charge of the 38 shell cases that they said was at the scene and he scratched his initials in them.
[00:25:24]  Mm hmm.
[00:25:25]  JMP, I believe.
[00:25:26]  Okay.
[00:25:27]  Well, then later in the spring, when the Warren Commission got the shellcases out of the National Archives, showed him Poe, he could not find his initials on them.
[00:25:37]  And there's even more things.
[00:25:39]  For one thing, there were different types of ammo.
[00:25:43]  All right.
[00:25:44]  And Oswald, by the way, is never known.
[00:25:47]  Nowhere in any of his belongings did they find any Hoppy's number nine gun oil or greasy rags or.
[00:25:56]  Cotton patches or nothing.
[00:25:58]  He had no gun cleaning equipment.
[00:26:01]  No accessories, nothing.
[00:26:02]  No accessories whatsoever.
[00:26:05]  And then there's this one too.
[00:26:08]  And you have to really understand your firearms.
[00:26:11]  But what Oswald had was a.38 Special.
[00:26:14]  Now, a.38 Special had originally been a regular.38 revolver, okay?
[00:26:21]  But when you do, to make the special, what they did was they had to change out the cylinder.
[00:26:28]  So, it would accommodate a.38 bullet that was slightly longer than the regular.38.
[00:26:39]  That's the way it's got a little more powder in it, so it's a little more powerful.
[00:26:43]  And they call this the.38 Special, okay?
[00:26:46]  So, and they re chamber the gun to accept this.
[00:26:51]  The point is that when you fire a.38 Special round or.38 through this.38 Special chamber, It's a little bit smaller in diameter than the cylinder, and so the bullet casing expands and bulges quite noticeably.
[00:27:13]  You might picture a pregnant bullet.
[00:27:18]  And so this is what happens, and this has been tested and tested with a.38 special pistol.
[00:27:27]  And yet the shell casings that are in the National Archives show no bulge.
[00:27:32]  In other words, they were not fired through that pistol that they say belonged to Oswald.
[00:27:38]  And then there's another thing about the pistol, which is that Officer McDonald, who was the first cop to reach Oswald in the theater, and I think part of the problem there was he was not in on the plan.
[00:27:53]  And I think the plan was because we know there were cops waiting in the alley out back, and then when they came in with Johnny Brewer, they went up on the stage and turned the house lights up but kept the movie going.
[00:28:07]  And they're going, okay, where's the guy?
[00:28:09]  And Brewer sees Oswald back towards the back and kind of points at him and says, I think that's him.
[00:28:16]  All right, now you'd think that the cops would rush back to get this guy, right?
[00:28:20]  No.
[00:28:20]  They start working their way back, aisle to aisle, sir, stand up, let's see some ID.
[00:28:25]  They're giving him every opportunity to try to make a run for it for the back door, where there were cops waiting back there, and I think the plan was to kill him, trying to escape, and then it's all wrapped up, see?
[00:28:37]  But McDonald got to him first, and according to him, and this was, he told this whole story to the Associated Press.
[00:28:47]  Which ran in the newspapers the very next day.
[00:28:50]  And he said he got there and Oswald stood up and said, Well, it's all over now, or something like that.
[00:28:54]  Right.
[00:28:55]  And pulled his pistol from his belt and jammed it into McDonald's belly.
[00:29:03]  And he said he heard the gun snap.
[00:29:07]  And he thought, Damn, are my lucky it didn't go off.
[00:29:11]  Right.
[00:29:12]  And so now in the Warren report.
[00:29:14]  So the gun doesn't even fire.
[00:29:15]  So the gun didn't work.
[00:29:17]  Right.
[00:29:17]  Now buried in the Warren report.
[00:29:19]  Volumes, as the FBI noticed, it said they had to, that the firing pin on that pistol was bent and that they had to repair it before they could test it for ballistics.
[00:29:31]  Oh, that's nice.
[00:29:32]  Now, that's another thing.
[00:29:33]  See, again, let's assume the plan was to get rid of Oswald.
[00:29:37]  Yeah.
[00:29:38]  So they killed a cop.
[00:29:40]  Now he's a cop killer.
[00:29:42]  You know, shoot on sight.
[00:29:44]  They give him a gun with a bent firing pin so they know he can't shoot back.
[00:29:49]  Right.
[00:29:50]  And so he's just going to be killed by the police.
[00:29:52]  Okay.
[00:29:52]  Okay.
[00:29:53]  But it doesn't go off.
[00:29:55]  But McDonald clearly heard it snap and doesn't make any mention of anything else.
[00:30:00]  Now, come the Warren Commission report, I think somebody realized that there's a problem with this.
[00:30:07]  So they said police are trained to stick their thumb in between the hammer and the gun, you know, or that thin piece of skin between your thumb and your hand, you know.
[00:30:20]  You jam that down in there, and then the hammer hits that, and.
[00:30:24]  You don't get shot.
[00:30:26]  They're trained to do that, it says.
[00:30:28]  And the way they wrote it, they leave the impression that this is what happened.
[00:30:32]  But they don't say that's what happened.
[00:30:33]  They just say police are trained to do this and leave the impression that that's what happened.
[00:30:38]  But I guarantee you, that didn't happen.
[00:30:40]  Because the hammer on a pistol, if that clamps in there between your thumb and hand, believe me, you're going to know it.
[00:30:47]  You're going to scream bloody murder because it's going to hurt like hell.
[00:30:50]  It's going to bleed.
[00:30:52]  And McDonald's never mentioned anything like that.
[00:30:56]  So it didn't happen.
[00:30:58]  So they screwed with the idea of putting the thumb between the hammer and the gun and put it out there as if that had happened to try to deflect attention from the fact that the pistol didn't work.
[00:31:11]  Oh, wow.
[00:31:12]  Okay, well, if it didn't work in the theater, how could he have shot Tippett a few minutes earlier?
[00:31:16]  Right.
[00:31:17]  So all this stuff is just nuts, man, once you really begin to look at it.
[00:31:22]  And then, of course, we have two, I've got two, well, actually, two arrest reports and a Another report from Alabama's police files that clearly state the suspect was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.
[00:31:37]  Well, we all know actually he was arrested in the main floor, in the center section, third row, third seat, okay?
[00:31:44]  Let's see.
[00:31:45]  And hauled out the front.
[00:31:47]  There's photographs of him bringing Oswald out the front of the theater.
[00:31:50]  And yet I also interviewed Bernard Hare, who had a hobby store just a few doors down from the theater.
[00:31:58]  Right.
[00:31:59]  Heard all the hubbub, went out there, was standing at the back of the crowd.
[00:32:02]  In fact, I found him in a picture of the crowd outside the Texas Theater, and he's over there on the edge of the crowd.
[00:32:09]  Well, that verified he was there.
[00:32:11]  Yeah, it verified he was there.
[00:32:13]  And he said there was a hubbub going on, but he got there and he was in the back of the crowd and he couldn't really see what was going on.
[00:32:20]  So he went back through his store and went back into the alleyway.
[00:32:23]  And he said there were police cars all lined up and down in the alley back there.
[00:32:28]  And then as he turned and walked a few steps towards the Texas School Book Theater, the back door slammed open and some cops came out dragging a young white guy who looked kind of disheveled as if he'd been in some kind of scuffle or fight.
[00:32:44]  And they threw him in the back of a squad car and they took off down the alley and made a right and headed towards town and the police station.
[00:32:52]  And up until the time that I went and interviewed Bernard Hare, he thought he had witnessed the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:33:00]  And when I showed him the pictures of Oswald coming out to, being dragged out the front of the theater, he said, Well, who did I see?
[00:33:06]  And that's the $64,000.
[00:33:08]  That's so unusual.
[00:33:11]  Oh, the whole thing just stinks to high heaven.
[00:33:13]  Yeah, well, you've got some kind of an impersonator there or they're grabbing somebody else.
[00:33:18]  Yeah.
[00:33:18]  Right at the theater, though.
[00:33:20]  Right.
[00:33:21]  Yeah.
[00:33:21]  Well, I think the whole idea was they planted Oswald in the theater, told him to go meet somebody, and then they used this duplicate to lure the authorities to the theater, and then they hustled this guy out and probably said, oh, he's with us, and they hustled him out of there.
[00:33:38]  In fact, if you want to know what happened to the lookalike, get hold of James Douglas' book, JFK and the Unspeakable.

=== Lookalike on Military Plane (03:51) ===

[00:33:48]  Yeah, it's excellent.
[00:33:49]  In there, he tells the story of Robert Vinson.
[00:33:52]  Who was a military guy who happened to catch a ride, I think out of Washington, and was trying to get back to his home unit.
[00:34:00]  So he just happened to hook a ride on a military plane, and then all of a sudden they were diverted to Dallas.
[00:34:08]  He recognized it was Dallas from the skyline, and they landed near the Trinity River, and they picked up three men on the afternoon of the 22nd, flew them to the air base at Roswell.
[00:34:22]  New Mexico.
[00:34:23]  Right.
[00:34:24]  And he's swarming down.
[00:34:26]  He tried to strike up a conversation with these guys, and they wouldn't talk to him.
[00:34:32]  But he said one of them was Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:34:34]  Yeah, this guy's story is unreal and underreported.
[00:34:39]  Let's go to a clip of him talking about this unusual plane ride on November 22nd, 1963, and coming face to face with this Oswald doppelganger.
[00:34:50]  Then there was a cargo plane, which I had seen before, and.
[00:34:56]  It had, but the tail was a little bit different than what I was used to.
[00:35:03]  And it had a marking on it that looked like a world, the picture of a world without all the different drawings, just plain.
[00:35:17]  And then it had longitude and latitude white marks around it.
[00:35:22]  Normally most of the aircraft had USAF written on the tail.
[00:35:26]  This one did not.
[00:35:28]  Describe the area where this plane landed, this C 54.
[00:35:32]  It was south of Dallas along the Trinity River.
[00:35:35]  We were on the south side of the Trinity River when we landed because there were trees and water back to the north of us.
[00:35:43]  Then there were two gentlemen who got on the airplane.
[00:35:46]  One of them was about six foot two, weighed about, I imagine, 200 or around 190, 200 pounds.
[00:35:58]  He was wearing white, well it was a beige-like coveralls.
[00:36:05]  And there was another gentleman, him, he was much shorter.
[00:36:10]  And he had black hair, kind of skinny.
[00:36:16]  And I guess he would weigh approximately maybe 150, 155 pounds.
[00:36:22]  All right, were these Caucasians?
[00:36:25]  One of them looked like he was Latin, maybe Cuban.
[00:36:29]  And the other one was Caucasian.
[00:36:31]  Well, it looked like where we had landed was a road under construction.
[00:36:34]  Yeah.
[00:36:35]  And the Jeep was back up, oh, maybe about 20 or 30 feet from the door when they got out.
[00:36:41]  All right.
[00:36:42]  And then they walked on up and got in.
[00:36:45]  Jeep turned around and took off.
[00:36:46]  The Jeep was a yellow type.
[00:36:50]  Looked like a road Jeep.
[00:36:53]  They used on roads, you know, repairing them.
[00:36:57]  Yellow.
[00:36:59]  It was kind of yellowish color.
[00:37:01]  after seeing his picture on television an awful lot, a person that looked like him.
[00:37:07]  And this person that got on the airplane looked an awful lot like Oswald.
[00:37:11]  Well, we turned around and took off and headed west.
[00:37:15]  They went on up behind the cockpit and set out and no one spoke to me, not even the pilot or it might have been a navigator, I don't know.
[00:37:27]  Now, where did the C-54 go?
[00:37:29]  We went to, I later found out, a place called Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico.
[00:37:35]  Jim, that sounds like a very sophisticated covert operation.

=== Six Oswalds Running Around (15:08) ===

[00:37:40]  Now, see, none of this makes sense when you try to think of it in terms of a low level plot.
[00:37:46]  Oswald, a few friends, some KGB agents, a few loose cannon CIA guys or mafia hitmen.
[00:37:54]  It doesn't seem to make any sense.
[00:37:56]  But when you understand that the assassination in November of 1963 was a palace revolt, it was a true.
[00:38:06]  Coup d'etat involving elements of the military, the FBI, the CIA, the mafia, you know, and see, they've kept us off balance for years going, is it one of those?
[00:38:18]  Which one of those is it?
[00:38:19]  Well, the answer is all of them.
[00:38:21]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:22]  And where were they all collectively together and operating?
[00:38:26]  Under Operation Mongoose, which was the secret war against Castro.
[00:38:31]  In this Mongoose program that included assassination capability, were anti Castro Cubans, FBI agents.
[00:38:40]  CIA people, mafia people, you know, hello.
[00:38:44]  So they just sent their hit team.
[00:38:46]  They had decided that, you know, they were kind of spitting in the wind trying to get Castro when the real problem was in the White House.
[00:38:57]  Well, if we look at intelligence operations where they create a double for some reason, what impression were they trying to create here?
[00:39:04]  Well, and of course, then you get into the whole weird idea of multiple Oswalds.
[00:39:10]  Yeah.
[00:39:10]  Okay.
[00:39:11]  And you really, if you can get a hold of a copy of John Armstrong's self published book, Harvey and Lee, he just does a masterful job of doing what all the investigations fail to do, and that is truly following up and looking into Oswald's background.
[00:39:27]  And what he just proves beyond any question is that from time to time Oswald was impersonated.
[00:39:35]  Okay?
[00:39:35]  People running around claiming to be Oswald, only weren't Oswald.
[00:39:38]  Right.
[00:39:39]  And if that sounds strange to you, Daniel, just keep in mind there is a document from the summer of 1960, three years before the assassination, signed by.
[00:39:50]  It's a memo from J. Edgar Hoover to the Security Division of the State Department warning that an imposter might be using Lee Harvey Oswald's birth certificate, and he wanted to have any information that the state may have on this guy.
[00:40:04]  That's so odd.
[00:40:05]  Wait a minute.
[00:40:06]  Now, wait a minute.
[00:40:07]  We were told that nobody in the federal government knew anything at all about Oswald, and now we find that Jagger Hoover personally was aware of Lee Harvey Oswald three years before the assassination and in the context of believing that someone was impersonating him.
[00:40:22]  That's amazing.
[00:40:24]  It is.
[00:40:25]  Well, Daniel, what's amazing to me is not so much that.
[00:40:28]  This is stuff that's leaked out over the years, okay?
[00:40:31]  So it is not so surprising that nobody at that time knew about that.
[00:40:36]  What's surprising to me is that where's the news media?
[00:40:40]  How come we don't know these things?
[00:40:41]  How come it hadn't been on the front page of every newspaper?
[00:40:44]  Right.
[00:40:45]  You know, that to me just evidences just incredible control over the news media of this country.
[00:40:54]  So there's a news blackout on it.
[00:40:56]  Yeah, and I know it's there because I've been in the news business since the 50s and I've seen it in action.
[00:41:03]  Well, you're saying that with Oswald, what they were up to was building the perfect Patsy with the help of these doubles.
[00:41:10]  Yeah.
[00:41:10]  Well, in fact, actually, you know, in intelligence parlance, they call that building a legend.
[00:41:17]  And there was a legend.
[00:41:18]  I had an old military intelligence agent that I worked with for a number of years.
[00:41:24]  He's passed on now.
[00:41:27]  And the worst thing I can say about him is he told me stuff that I just simply could not prove one way or another.
[00:41:33]  But a whole lot of what he told me turned out to be documented fact.
[00:41:39]  And I think he's telling the truth.
[00:41:41]  Well, years and years ago, he told me, he said, you know, He said at one point in time there were as many as six Lee Harvey Oswalds running around.
[00:41:49]  And back then when he told me that, I'm going, What are you talking about?
[00:41:55]  And now I begin to see what he's talking about, and I think that very well could be true.
[00:42:00]  I think they created this legend that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:42:06]  And actually, in actuality, it was a combination of people.
[00:42:09]  Well, it's interesting if we stay with this lookalike theme.
[00:42:12]  Even on the day of the shooting, they had a kind of Oswald double named Billy Lovelady.
[00:42:17]  Who was working not only in the Texas School Book Depository, but on the same sixth floor with Oswald?
[00:42:24]  And you pointed out this photo that looks like Oswald on the front steps, but was supposed to be Lovelady, they say.
[00:42:32]  So we have obfuscation of the trail right there at the scene.
[00:42:35]  Oh, I think they had several contingencies ready to go.
[00:42:40]  You know, keep in mind that Wesley Frazier, who drove Oswald, they said, to work that day, he could have easily been.
[00:42:48]  Arrested as an accomplice.
[00:42:50]  So they certainly had the pressure on him.
[00:42:53]  Yeah.
[00:42:54]  Yeah.
[00:42:55]  And I know somebody who knew Billy Lovelady personally, and there's just some weird stuff going on with that.
[00:43:01]  He almost tried to tell her some stuff.
[00:43:04]  The thing is, on the lookalike, what appears to have happened is simply this.
[00:43:08]  Well, I'll never forget that Marguerite Oswald told me one time, and this kind of blew me away, that when Lee was in junior high school, he came home one afternoon after school with a military officer.
[00:43:21]  And this officer was telling Mrs. Oswald, Oh, yeah, yeah, your son's great.
[00:43:26]  He's kind of a loner, but he's smart and he's a self motivated and self starter.
[00:43:33]  You know, he's the very type of guy we need, you know, blah, blah, blah.
[00:43:38]  And then, of course, there's the case that he tried to join the Marines when he was 16, even forged a letter from his mother saying he was older, but he got caught, and they turned him out, sent him back home.
[00:43:52]  And Marguerite said for the whole next year, all he did was study his brother's Marine Corps manual.
[00:43:59]  Now, does this sound like an anti American, pro communist?
[00:44:03]  No.
[00:44:04]  Definitely not.
[00:44:04]  And I, So Lee gets in the military, okay, and he's gung ho.
[00:44:08]  They've already tagged him because I have reason to believe his brother Robert was CIA, okay?
[00:44:15]  Okay.
[00:44:16]  Plus the story of the military officer coming home after school.
[00:44:20]  So even at this young age, the military had already tagged Oswald as a potential intelligence operative, okay?
[00:44:29]  So he gets in the Marine Corps.
[00:44:32]  At the same time now, all at the same time, there's a kid in New York.
[00:44:36]  Grew up in New York and probably was the offspring of an immigrant family from the Baltic region because when he was in Russia, several people said he had a Baltic accent.
[00:44:48]  You know, why would Oswald, who's learned Russian out of a book supposedly, come from Texas, Louisiana, why would he have a Baltic accent?
[00:44:57]  So, anyway, though, so in New York, and then this is what Armstrong can prove to you is that there are school records showing that Oswald was in school in New York.
[00:45:07]  At the very same time, it shows he was in school in New Orleans.
[00:45:11]  So I think they were actually grooming these two kids.
[00:45:14]  Now, the idea being that the New York Oswald, who we'll call Harvey, Harvey was, as I said, came from an immigrant family, and they were probably virulently anti communist.
[00:45:29]  So he's a perfect guy, and he can speak Russian fluently.
[00:45:32]  And so he's the perfect guy that they want to send to Russia as a spy.
[00:45:36]  But they can't send him to Russia under his own identity.
[00:45:40]  Dent even the Russians say, well, that comes from that family and they're anti communists.
[00:45:44]  This guy's a spy.
[00:45:46]  So, what they did was they found somebody that looked a whole lot like him and they landed on Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:45:53]  So, Lee, and so then in the Marines, they put them both in the Marines at the same time.
[00:45:58]  And then it was Harvey who went to Russia under the name Lee Harvey Oswald, prompting Jager Hoover's memo that an imposter was using his birth certificate.
[00:46:10]  Okay, so someone's imitating him there.
[00:46:13]  Exactly.
[00:46:14]  And then, in fact, I think the Harvey that went to Russia impersonating Oswald is the same fella who was killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas.
[00:46:24]  Okay.
[00:46:25]  Now, this also explains why his wife, Marina, and why Judith Very Baker, who says she was his girlfriend in New Orleans, and why they haven't said, oh, yeah, that was not the real guy, because this was the only guy they ever knew.
[00:46:41]  Yeah.
[00:46:42]  Okay?
[00:46:43]  But now, if you go read the Warren Commission testimony of his brother Robert and his stepbrother Eckdahl and his mother, and they all commented about how changed he was when he came back from Russia.
[00:46:58]  Yes.
[00:46:59]  That's because he was similar, but he wasn't the same guy.
[00:47:01]  Well, they said his hair had changed, it had thinned out, and that his skin tone seemed different.
[00:47:08]  Right.
[00:47:08]  The one I liked was I think it was his brother who talked about how he had a big family.
[00:47:13]  Thick neck, and now all of a sudden he's got a little scrawny neck.
[00:47:16]  You know, your neck doesn't change that much.
[00:47:19]  But the historical Oswald did live in New York when he was younger, also, right?
[00:47:24]  Yes.
[00:47:25]  Yeah, they sent him up there for a brief period of time.
[00:47:27]  Right.
[00:47:28]  They were only there a very short time.
[00:47:30]  So, we know that there was a real Oswald there, this historical Oswald.
[00:47:34]  So, this other Oswald that Armstrong has drawn a trail on, he basically is somebody who looked exactly like Oswald.
[00:47:44]  Obviously, they had to have incredible similarity.
[00:47:47]  Well, we all know that everybody's got a doppelganger somewhere.
[00:47:50]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:47:51]  I remember when I was in the.
[00:47:52]  I mean, I'm kind of short and this white beard kind of looked like a miniature Santa Claus.
[00:48:00]  And I remember before I left the paper.
[00:48:04]  Somebody brought me this AP photograph out of Skokie, Illinois, where they're having some kind of neo Nazi rally.
[00:48:11]  And here's a little guy with his German helmet on and a white beard and glasses.
[00:48:17]  They said, Here you are, Mars.
[00:48:20]  And I swear to God, it did.
[00:48:21]  It looked just like me, but it wasn't me.
[00:48:26]  Everybody's got a doppelganger somewhere.
[00:48:28]  And when you think about the time frames involved, like when he left to go to the Marines, he was 17, I guess.
[00:48:37]  And then nobody saw him for a couple of years until he's like 20, 21, and then only briefly.
[00:48:46]  Well, think how much he changed during those years.
[00:48:49]  Sure.
[00:48:50]  My school pictures when I was in, say, the 10th grade versus my college picture just seems like a whole different guy, you know.
[00:49:02]  Well, one of the fascinating viewpoints on this was Fletcher Prouty, who did great work on the JFK case and worked in intelligence.
[00:49:09]  But he said that Oswald's background appeared to be manipulated so that the paper trail would be obscured.
[00:49:16]  So, this idea of him showing up in two places at once, for example, the people he met would never know which one they were dealing with exactly.
[00:49:23]  That's right.
[00:49:25]  Exactly.
[00:49:25]  That's what helped confuse the thing.
[00:49:27]  And see, that's what made Oswald the perfect Patsy because they could go back and cherry pick this background information and create a persona of anybody they wanted to.
[00:49:39]  Yeah.
[00:49:40]  Well, you did an amazing video years ago now on the backyard photos and how they had been faked.
[00:49:47]  The thing I wanted to ask you on this, and I believe they are fakes from looking at them, but why does Marina Oswald go on the record saying that she took them?
[00:49:56]  What do you think is going on there?
[00:49:59]  I think what's going on there is simply this.
[00:50:01]  I think that at some point she did go in the backyard and she did take some photographs.
[00:50:07]  It's simply the fact that it was not those photographs.
[00:50:10]  I think in recent years, She herself has said, Well, yeah, I took some photographs in the backyard, but not those photographs.
[00:50:17]  Okay.
[00:50:18]  Because she remembered standing by the stairway and taking photographs.
[00:50:23]  Well, you know, in the photograph, the stairway is to the side and behind Oswald.
[00:50:27]  So, see, it's just, it wasn't the same one.
[00:50:29]  But then you've got to understand that at the time of the assassination, she could barely speak English, and she was scared to death they were going to deport her and her children back to Russia.
[00:50:39]  So she was in a situation where she pretty well told the authorities anything they wanted to hear.
[00:50:47]  Another key thing is that you read a Warren Commission testimony in regard to the backyard photographs, and she starts off saying she just took this one photograph.
[00:50:55]  And then when it was pointed out that there were two photographs, she changed her testimony and said, Oh, well, that's right, I took two.
[00:51:00]  Well, now we know there were at least three because another one popped up 15 years later.
[00:51:05]  So, see, she just doesn't really know.
[00:51:09]  Now, you interviewed the people at the photo processing lab at some point.
[00:51:14]  Yes.
[00:51:14]  And what did they tell you?
[00:51:16]  Well, they said that Friday night they were processing all these photographs and films and stuff for the FBI and for the government, and that they, both Pat Hester and our husband Robert, definitely recalled that they were processing pictures of that backyard with the stairway and no figure in it.
[00:51:34]  And they even said they saw that same picture in color.
[00:51:41]  And so, in other words, they were messing with this before it was, and yet, according to the official record, those photographs were only found the next day.
[00:51:50]  So, see, there's just a lot of fabrication going on, a lot of deceit.
[00:51:55]  Well, you interviewed Paul Groody.
[00:51:59]  Yeah, numerous times.
[00:52:01]  Paul and I actually were pretty good friends because, see, back when I was a police reporter for the Star Telegram, and he was in charge of the ambulance service.
[00:52:10]  Back then, the funeral homes were the ones that had station wagons, I guess, is kind of what they were.
[00:52:18]  But they doubled, and they would transport bodies, but then they also doubled as ambulances.
[00:52:23]  And what they did was they would contract with the city to provide the ambulance service for wreck victims, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:52:31]  So, Miller Funeral Home, for a time there, had the city contract, and they were the ambulance service.
[00:52:36]  And so, at the time I was a police reporter, of course, every time I want to know about an accident victim or murder or whatever was going on, I could always go and deal with Paul Rudy.
[00:52:46]  So, I knew him for a number of years.

=== Dug Up Sealed Coffin (08:10) ===

[00:52:48]  So, you knew him very well.
[00:52:50]  Yeah.
[00:52:52]  And I knew him to be a truthful and Truthful guy.
[00:52:55]  What did he tell you about Oswald's corpse?
[00:52:57]  He told me that, well, he told me that the FBI had showed up with a crime lab kit on that Monday while he was trying to prepare Oswald's body for burial.
[00:53:10]  I just said, well, were you, you know, because I'd already figured out what had happened.
[00:53:15]  So I just went ahead and sprang it on him.
[00:53:17]  I said, were you there when the FBI put his dead hand on that rifle?
[00:53:23]  And without hesitation, he goes, yeah.
[00:53:26]  He said, in fact, I had a hard time getting that black fingerprinting of Oswald's dead hand in time for the burial later that afternoon.
[00:53:34]  So they went back and palm printed him and fingerprinted him so they could.
[00:53:39]  That's a very unusual.
[00:53:40]  Well, he was already fingerprinted, I think, twice, maybe three times while in police custody.
[00:53:45]  So why would they need to go to the funeral home?
[00:53:47]  Well, because it was only after that incident that on Monday night following the assassination, Henry Wade almost offhandedly mentioned at a press conference, he was as Oh, by the way, have I mentioned we got his fingerprints on the rifle?
[00:54:03]  Well, it turned out there were no fingerprints, but they claimed that they got a fuzzy palm print off the underside of the disassembled barrel, which they said, well, it was just missed early on, you know.
[00:54:17]  And I have, because I have the letter from Jager Hoover the day after, where they said that there were no usable fingerprints on the rifle, the clip, or even the inner parts of the rifle.
[00:54:30]  That's been a big problem for them, I would say, because it goes against the credibility of the whole lone nut thing if they don't have fingerprints on there.
[00:54:37]  Exactly.
[00:54:38]  But Grootie told you also, we're going back into this two Oswalds thing, that they did an autopsy on Oswalds, and later they exhumed the body in the early 80s.
[00:54:50]  So can you get into that a little bit?
[00:54:52]  Because that's fascinating.
[00:54:53]  Oh, it is fascinating.
[00:54:56]  But you had to kind of have lived through it because just describing it, it sounds like, oh, well, you know, they.
[00:55:02]  They said they're going to dig him up and they had a little bit of a squabble, but then they dug him up and then the medical examiner declared, no, this is the body of Lee Harvey Oswald.
[00:55:10]  And that was what was all in the headlines.
[00:55:12]  And there, case closed.
[00:55:14]  Yeah.
[00:55:14]  But it wasn't that simple.
[00:55:16]  Okay.
[00:55:16]  First off, I dealt with Linda Norton, the assistant medical examiner over in Dallas who was in charge of the whole thing.
[00:55:23]  And early on, she was really fired up.
[00:55:26]  She said she had seen enough evidence to convince her that there were certainly serious questions there.
[00:55:31]  And she said, we're going to get to the bottom of it.
[00:55:33]  Okay.
[00:55:34]  And then later, all of a sudden, she got real mute.
[00:55:38]  And then years went by before they finally issued a report.
[00:55:42]  But anyway, to begin with, the whole issue of Oswald's identity came up actually back in the.
[00:55:49]  With a British author named Michael Eddowes, who wrote a book, and in there he postulated that the Russians had substituted someone for Oswald and had sent back this ringer for the express purpose of killing Kennedy.
[00:56:04]  Of course, he never quite explained how that Oswald left the Soviet Union and came back over here long before Kennedy was even nominated, much less elected for president.
[00:56:17]  And that was kind of a surprise and a shock.
[00:56:19]  Than most people because they figured the 60 election was going to be between Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon.
[00:56:26]  So it's like, wait a minute.
[00:56:29]  But he did make a lot of good points by pointing out that scars did not match, heights did not match.
[00:56:37]  For example, Oswald in the Marines on several occasions gave his height as 5'11.
[00:56:44]  And yet at his autopsy, he said he was 5'9.
[00:56:49]  Well, I always thought the Marine Corps built men and not pulled them down.
[00:56:53]  That's a pretty big jump down, two inches.
[00:56:55]  Yeah.
[00:56:56]  And then, of course, in fact, I have a news clipping from 1969, I guess it was.
[00:57:03]  I think it only appeared in the Star Telegram because that's where Marguerite was.
[00:57:08]  And Marguerite, his mother, was asking to have the body exhumed.
[00:57:11]  She said she had questions about the marks and stuff on the body.
[00:57:16]  Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:57:17]  Even his own mother was questioning it, okay?
[00:57:20]  So, Eddos brought up this whole thing of exhumation.
[00:57:24]  And he even went to court, wanted to get an exhumation order, and they pretty well quickly turned him down, said that he was, number one, he wasn't even a U.S. citizen, he had no standing.
[00:57:36]  So, time goes by, he goes and gets with Marina Oswald, Lee's wife.
[00:57:43]  So, she joins in.
[00:57:44]  Yeah, I want an exhumation.
[00:57:46]  Well, she knew something was up, right?
[00:57:49]  Obviously.
[00:57:50]  She certainly didn't oppose it.
[00:57:53]  And so the Dallas authorities were kind of gradually going, well, okay.
[00:57:57]  But then it turned out that Oswald actually was buried in the Rose Hill Cemetery, which is in Tarrant County, okay, next to Dallas.
[00:58:06]  And the Tarrant County district attorney, who at that time was Tim Curry, he starts dragging his feet and says, no, blah, blah, blah.
[00:58:14]  Well, they kept squabbling over that, and more time went by.
[00:58:18]  And then finally, apparently, they kind of got past him.
[00:58:22]  And then finally, they said, okay, and they ordered the explanation.
[00:58:27]  And then the next thing you know, Lee's brother Robert steps in with a restraining order saying, no, don't do that.
[00:58:34]  I don't want you doing that.
[00:58:35]  Blah, blah, blah.
[00:58:36]  That's weird.
[00:58:36]  And what kind of sense does this make?
[00:58:40]  Yeah.
[00:58:40]  If they dig up Oswald and it's just Oswald, then what's changed?
[00:58:43]  Nothing.
[00:58:44]  If they dig up Oswald and it's not the real Lee Oliver Oswald, then his brother's exonerated.
[00:58:50]  Yeah.
[00:58:50]  So, Steve, that never made any sense to me.
[00:58:52]  But it did.
[00:58:53]  Again, through another log jam in this whole.
[00:58:55]  Procedure.
[00:58:57]  And then so finally, now we get into 80, 81, and Marguerite dies of cancer.
[00:59:04]  And she has the plot next to him at Rose Hill, and so they put up a canopy there, you know, for several weeks while they, in early '80, when they were digging her grave.
[00:59:17]  Oh, it's right next to Oswald's.
[00:59:19]  Yeah, so that gives them every opportunity to go down there and then go sideways.
[00:59:23]  They have access.
[00:59:24]  Yeah.
[00:59:25]  They have access, exactly.
[00:59:26]  And so then that was in like February or so.
[00:59:30]  Then it finally gets to be the summer, about August or so, and all of a sudden, all the opposition.
[00:59:36]  And foot dragon to this exhumation suddenly dissipates and just, well, okay.
[00:59:42]  And Robert goes, oh, I can't fight anymore.
[00:59:43]  Go on.
[00:59:45]  All right.
[00:59:45]  So I went and interviewed the, at the time, I interviewed the backhoe operator who was digging down to get to the grave.
[00:59:56]  And he said that, and also Groody and others said that Oswald should have been the same shape he was when they buried him because Baumgartner, who's the other funeral home director, and Groody.
[01:00:10]  Both knew the importance of who they were burying, you know, so they kind of extra embalmed him and then put him in an airtight sealed coffin, which was then placed into an airtight sealed concrete vault, okay, at the cemetery.
[01:00:29]  And so this is what they were going to dig up.
[01:00:31]  Well, the backhoe operator told me that when they dug down there, they found that the concrete container had been broken.
[01:00:40]  And it was in pieces, and that the coffin had been broken into, the seal broken, and that air, water had gotten in, and so the body had decomposed considerably.
[01:00:54]  And they said that was, you know, not impossible, but very unlikely.

=== Broken Concrete Container (14:52) ===

[01:00:59]  So someone got into it.
[01:01:00]  Somebody got into it, okay.
[01:01:03]  So then Baumgartner and Groody, Marina Oswald, who had arranged for this whole exhumation anyway, At the last minute, said, We want you guys along because you were the last people to handle the body.
[01:01:18]  We want you to identify the visceral bag and rings and things like that.
[01:01:23]  And so they went to, I think it was Southwest Medical School.
[01:01:27]  And sometime later, some months later, Grootie was telling me that while they were there and they checked, and sure enough, the visceral bag looked like it was okay.
[01:01:37]  And they found the wedding ring or I don't know, things.
[01:01:41]  And he said, But they had the.
[01:01:44]  The head, the skull, which was mostly just a skull with just a little bit of decomposed flesh on it and some hair, and said it was really odd.
[01:01:54]  They both looked at each other at the time because they just reached in there and they just pulled the head out.
[01:02:00]  Well, wait a minute.
[01:02:01]  Your head's connected to your body with a very stout spinal column.
[01:02:06]  And so they thought that was kind of odd.
[01:02:09]  But the key thing was that they put the head on a tray, had it sitting on the floor, and Paul Grudy said he accidentally bumped it with his foot and it kind of rolled a little bit.
[01:02:20]  And that's when he began to notice that there was no sign of a craniotomy on this skull.
[01:02:28]  Now, the craniotomy is where they make kind of a broad V-shaped cut on your head and then they pull reflect back the scalp to get to the skull.
[01:02:37]  And then they cut this V-shaped cut and they just lift the top of the skull off.
[01:02:42]  And that way it allows them to get to the brain.
[01:02:45]  And so at the autopsy of Oswald by Earl Rose, They had performed a craniotomy where they take the top of the head off.
[01:02:55]  And as Paul Grudy explained to me, when you put the skull cap back on, you can set it right back on there, but it's never going to go back together.
[01:03:06]  It's like cutting a 2x4 in half.
[01:03:09]  You can put the two ends back together, but they're never going to be one.
[01:03:13]  Right, they won't be, yeah.
[01:03:14]  They're not going to be seamless.
[01:03:16]  Exactly.
[01:03:17]  And so both Baumgartner and Grudy said that there was no sign of this craniotomy.
[01:03:25]  And then, strangely enough, they were supposed to have three sets of.
[01:03:30]  Dental records on Oswald.
[01:03:32]  One when he first entered the Marine Corps, and then another while he was in, and then another examination when he got out.
[01:03:40]  And they were going to, the government was supposed to hand over all three, and they were going to compare all this to the corpse and see if that matches.
[01:03:47]  Well, it turns out the government only gave them one set of teeth, and this one, there were discrepancies, but there were enough similarities that they said, well, okay, this is Oswald.
[01:04:00]  But then they had the problem with the craniotomy.
[01:04:04]  And that's why I think they wrestled with that for a long time and applied pressure wherever they could.
[01:04:11]  Because it was like two years or more before they ever finally issued a report on this grave exhumation.
[01:04:21]  Well, Grootie would have known.
[01:04:23]  He was the one who prepared the body in the first place.
[01:04:27]  Exactly.
[01:04:28]  Don't get any better than that.
[01:04:29]  So basically, what they were saying was that that was not the same skull.
[01:04:33]  Well, that is fascinating.
[01:04:35]  Let's go now to a clip of Groody describing how the head that he had prepared for burial was different than the one they dug up at the exhumation of Lee Harvey Oswald.
[01:04:46]  Of course, I was the one that had to handle the body in the morgue at Baylor.
[01:04:53]  And as we removed the body from the casket, or at least worked with the body, I could recognize that this clothing was the clothing that I had put on that body.
[01:05:06]  And yet, when I saw the head of this body, and it was removed from the casket and removed from the body in order that they might x ray it and take pictures, I could see that there was no autopsy on that head.
[01:05:23]  When an autopsy is done and the skull is cut in order to remove the cap, in order to remove the brain, there is a distinctive line of where all the fissures and all of the skull have been parted.
[01:05:39]  Now, it's going to cause a bit of a mark.
[01:05:42]  No matter what you try and do, it's going to show.
[01:05:45]  And knowing that I handled the body originally, and there was an autopsy on that head, and now to see that there was no autopsy on the head, made it in my mind pretty clear that something had transpired that had caused this.
[01:05:58]  And I feel as though someone had gone to the cemetery off hours, had taken the head of Lee Harvey Oswald that now was dead.
[01:06:14]  How he got that way, I don't know, but at least it was the head, and had brought the vault to the surface as best they could, being a heavy item as it is, a tripod, lifting the body and the vault out of the grave.
[01:06:30]  In the process, the bottom of the vault fell, breaking the vault, causing the casket to deteriorate to a degree.
[01:06:39]  Then, of course, removed the head of the one that was there that had been autopsied and put this head in its place so that we would find.
[01:06:47]  The teeth of Lee Harvey Oswald.
[01:06:49]  That's my theory.
[01:06:49]  This is what I think happened.
[01:06:52]  There's a story about, you mentioned this in the new version of Crossfire, which is fantastic, by the way.
[01:06:58]  Love that new edition.
[01:07:01]  But it's about the video photographer guy, Hall, I think it's called.
[01:07:05]  Yeah.
[01:07:06]  Yeah.
[01:07:06]  Now, what is that?
[01:07:07]  That's an odd one, too.
[01:07:08]  Yeah.
[01:07:09]  Well, and you know what?
[01:07:12]  I should have checked on that.
[01:07:14]  Seems like I tried to, but Marina's getting hard to get hold of.
[01:07:19]  She's not Porter anymore.
[01:07:21]  Anyway, maybe I should have pressed harder on that, but.
[01:07:25]  To the best of my knowledge, I don't think she ever got those videos back.
[01:07:30]  Wow.
[01:07:31]  Which is unconscionable because she's the one that paid for them.
[01:07:35]  Exactly.
[01:07:37]  So, see, that's just there's almost not any issue, no matter how small, in this whole thing that can't be thrown into a contest.
[01:07:48]  It's amazing.
[01:07:49]  It's really being obscured on purpose.
[01:07:51]  Absolutely.
[01:07:53]  But this guy, Hall, the way you wrote it, and this is very interesting, that.
[01:07:57]  Marina basically hired him to videotape the entire process of the exhumation and then the autopsy afterwards.
[01:08:06]  And then she had the film, and questions came up later because of what Grootie said about.
[01:08:12]  No, she never got the film.
[01:08:14]  He had the film.
[01:08:15]  Oh, okay.
[01:08:16]  And then when the questions came up, she said, Well, you know, everybody was saying Jack White and Grootie and all these others that were all involved in this.
[01:08:24]  They said, Well, if we can just get hold of the videotape, that should show one way or another.
[01:08:28]  You know, either the skull's intact or it's not.
[01:08:31]  But they could never get hold of it.
[01:08:33]  And by this time, Hall said, Oh, no, I took that.
[01:08:36]  It's mine.
[01:08:37]  And he refused to give it up.
[01:08:39]  In fact, she took him to court, and I think the court ordered that he hand it over, except as far as I haven't been able to find anywhere where it says that actually took place.
[01:08:49]  Wow.
[01:08:50]  Hey, maybe you can get hold of Hall and find out does he still have it?
[01:08:53]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:08:55]  That's a very, very unusual part of that story, I have to say, because Gertie just being so.
[01:09:03]  Credible and he would know.
[01:09:06]  And then the fact that there is this piece of film out there that could confirm what he saw or not.
[01:09:11]  Now, here's another little thing that's not going to get written down because you'll never prove this.
[01:09:15]  But this is the kind of crap I have to live with things you know, but you can't prove.
[01:09:21]  Kind of like the letter warning Kenny was going to be killed from A.J. Heidel to the Dallas Fleet.
[01:09:28]  Heidel is the name that Oswald used.
[01:09:31]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:09:32]  Exactly.
[01:09:34]  So, Jack White, who was following this exhumation thing quite closely at the time, told me this story that he had gotten emails, I guess, from this college professor in East Texas, who apparently had some interest in the Kennedy assassination and was asking him very pointed questions and just said, You know, were there any questionable things going on about the autopsy?
[01:10:01]  And Jack White responded, Yes, we do have.
[01:10:05]  A couple of real big questions, and the guy wrote back, Is it about the craniotomy?
[01:10:10]  So it's like he was aware of this, which was pretty wild because Jack only knew about it from talking to Paul Groody.
[01:10:20]  And Paul Groody and Alan Baumgartner were the only ones who actually knew about this issue and certainly had any knowledge of the whole thing.
[01:10:28]  So Jack got real curious and started then corresponding with this professor, and it even gets weirder.
[01:10:35]  It turns out.
[01:10:35]  Professor had just recently joined as a teacher.
[01:10:38]  Before that, he had been an officer in the Air Force.
[01:10:42]  And that he had been sent to Carswell.
[01:10:47]  Oh, God, I can't hardly remember the story now.
[01:10:51]  But he went to Carswell and oversaw a flight that came in and it had something to do with the Oswald exhumation.
[01:10:58]  And it's like, wait a minute, what the heck is that all about?
[01:11:02]  And so I think he somehow knew that they brought in a new head.
[01:11:07]  Right, right.
[01:11:09]  That they were going to put in the grave so that it would match up with the Oswald dental records.
[01:11:14]  That is so unusual.
[01:11:16]  Yeah, the whole thing's just.
[01:11:19]  Well, that's fascinating.
[01:11:21]  Well, you call those tidbits, right?
[01:11:22]  That's one of your things about it.
[01:11:24]  Yeah, little tidbits.
[01:11:26]  You've spent the time on this case.
[01:11:28]  This thing about the tramps, what's your opinion of what was going on there?
[01:11:35]  Well, that's another odd one, but I'll tell you when you compare the tall tramp, and you see the ear, you see the jawline, you see the unusual wrinkle that runs around his neck, I'm pretty convinced that that tall track is Charles Harrelson.
[01:11:53]  Charles Harrelson, who was convicted of murder.
[01:11:55]  Convicted hitman, yeah.
[01:11:57]  Judge Wood, okay.
[01:11:59]  And there's other stuff that incriminates him.
[01:12:02]  He confessed to the Kennedy assassination when he was high on cocaine and was holding off the police out of Van Horn, Texas.
[01:12:08]  Oh, he did.
[01:12:10]  And then he told Chuck Cook, I believe it was, a reporter for the Dallas News, he said, I can't talk to you here in the jail because my cell's bugged.
[01:12:19]  And then a few months later, it turned out that it came out that they were bugging his cell.
[01:12:23]  Oh, I knew.
[01:12:24]  He found the truth there.
[01:12:25]  He says, But he said, if I ever get out of here, I'll give you the biggest story you ever got.
[01:12:30]  And he What's that?
[01:12:31]  And he said, November the 22nd, 1963.
[01:12:34]  You remember that.
[01:12:36]  So I think there's every reason to believe the tall tramp was Charles Hellison.
[01:12:40]  And we got a fairly good idea on who the other two were.
[01:12:43]  But of course, this flies directly in the face of these police reports, which suddenly turned up in the same handwriting, you know, in the Dallas police files after, you know, almost 40 years.
[01:12:56]  Yeah.
[01:12:57]  That said it's these three tramps.
[01:12:58]  And then one of them was already dead, but they found the other.
[01:13:02]  Too, and basically they're saying, Yeah, I was in Dallas, and yeah, I got arrested, and you know, blah, blah, blah.
[01:13:08]  So everybody just said, Well, there, it took care of that.
[01:13:11]  Well, okay, my take is that I think the Gadney and whoever the other guy is, the two tramps that they identified, I'm willing to accept their story at face value.
[01:13:24]  Okay, they were there.
[01:13:26]  They did get arrested in Dallas, and they did clean up, and they were sent on their way.
[01:13:31]  That still doesn't explain the lack of paperwork and arrest records.
[01:13:34]  That was missing for 40 years.
[01:13:36]  Right.
[01:13:37]  And I think that they were, this happened at a different time.
[01:13:42]  Okay?
[01:13:43]  So, yes, it happened, but it wasn't the same tramps that they pulled out of the railroad car.
[01:13:50]  Well, tell us about how weird it was the way they took them out of the car and how they weren't really even arresting them, they were sort of escorting them.
[01:14:00]  Exactly.
[01:14:01]  Those pictures are unusual, and I agree with you that those are the strangest pictures because they don't look like they're doing police work.
[01:14:07]  That's right.
[01:14:08]  It looks like they're all just kind of sauntering on back somewhere.
[01:14:12]  Well, the basic story is that not too long after the assassination, and that's another thing that time frames have been jiggled with so much that you can't say with any certainty when all this happened, but I would think it had to be within half an hour or an hour at the most after the shooting.
[01:14:31]  And Lee Bowers, who was in this railroad tower, who is another object of attention, and has a whole weird story to go with him.
[01:14:41]  He saw me in the back.
[01:14:43]  Well, that seems to be the general idea.
[01:14:47]  It was a strange one car accident with no autopsy, and his body was cremated, even though the family said, Well, we didn't order that.
[01:14:57]  You did a fascinating special on the Travel Channel that I saw.
[01:15:01]  Yeah, they dealt with that pretty well.
[01:15:04]  One of the better instances of reporting.
[01:15:07]  So, anyway, he saw these three guys sneaking in a boxcar on the railroad tracks back there, and he's the one who notified the police.
[01:15:16]  And they went over there and routed these guys out of the car and then marched.
[01:15:20]  Them, caddy cornered through Dealey Plaza, and as you said, they marched them back over to the sheriff's office, and this would have been a city offense, so they should have sent them on up to the Dallas police station.
[01:15:33]  And yet, at the time, there were no pre-arrest reports.
[01:15:37]  No reports of these guys being taken in at all.
[01:15:41]  And within a day or two, they're out, they're gone, and it was only the assassination conspiracy researchers who were going, wait a minute, who are these guys?

=== Zapruder Film Evidence (15:34) ===

[01:15:51]  And of course, you're probably well aware of some of this stuff.
[01:15:54]  It even gets stranger because Colonel Proudy, along with another military officer, has ID'd General Lansdale, who was in charge of Operation Mongoose, walking past them in Bealey Plaza.
[01:16:08]  Well, Proudy worked with Lansdale, so he knew him very well.
[01:16:13]  Yeah.
[01:16:13]  Knew him quite well.
[01:16:14]  It's like, you know, that's for you saying, well, you know, I've worked with this guy for years and I recognize him.
[01:16:20]  Exactly.
[01:16:21]  Yeah.
[01:16:21]  So now you got that to throw into the mix, too.
[01:16:24]  So, again, I think what happened was that they did get some people that were probably connected to the assassination that included Charles Harrelson.
[01:16:34]  But then, because all of this is being orchestrated from the very top of the power structure, the low level cops and district attorneys and stuff are told, no, never mind.
[01:16:44]  These guys are okay.
[01:16:45]  We've checked them out.
[01:16:46]  And they're out of there.
[01:16:49]  And then, what they did was, in fact, they may have even arranged for these three.
[01:16:55]  Other tramps to get arrested a little later that afternoon so that in the future they can come back and say, oh, it was them.
[01:17:04]  Yeah, right.
[01:17:05]  Well, so they have some real tramps thrown in there with these hitmen, basically.
[01:17:09]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:17:10]  But the idea that Lansdale would be walking by the tramps puts them on kind of a pretty important level because if it was Lansdale, then he was trying to say, don't blow your cool or everything's okay.
[01:17:23]  That seems to be the idea.
[01:17:25]  Apparently, he made a little motion with his hand or something like that.
[01:17:28]  It's like, you know, just.
[01:17:29]  Chill out.
[01:17:30]  Stay cool.
[01:17:31]  We'll get you out of this.
[01:17:32]  And they did.
[01:17:33]  So, your impression is that it was probably Harrelson, and there probably is some significance to the tramp story?
[01:17:40]  Oh, yeah.
[01:17:41]  I think it was Harrelson, and I think it was.
[01:17:43]  Well, you got Harold Doyle.
[01:17:45]  Harold Doyle, and, yeah.
[01:17:48]  Then they were saying it was E. Howard Hunt, but that's a stretch, right?
[01:17:52]  No, it wasn't E. Howard Hunt.
[01:17:53]  I can point Hunt out to you, though.
[01:17:55]  Okay.
[01:17:56]  There's a picture taken of the crowd coming towards the grassy knoll.
[01:18:02]  And up to the extreme right hand corner is a guy walking along with a tan trench coat on and a slouch hat with his hands in his pocket.
[01:18:12]  And he definitely looks like Hunt.
[01:18:15]  And in fact, Hunt's son, St. John Hunt, had a copy of that picture.
[01:18:20]  He said, That's my dad.
[01:18:21]  He said, And I recognize that trench coat because he loved it, wore it all the time.
[01:18:27]  Well, there were a lot of people in the plaza who were very high level.
[01:18:33]  Exactly.
[01:18:33]  Oh, no, it was almost a surprise.
[01:18:36]  Spook convention.
[01:18:39]  I'm sure KGB agents were there, Mossad agents were there, Castro agents were there.
[01:18:45]  I think everybody came to see what was going to go on.
[01:18:47]  Well, you mentioned one that's very important, which is Michael Mertz, who they actually arrested him, right, and then deported him?
[01:18:53]  Right.
[01:18:53]  Yeah.
[01:18:53]  Yeah.
[01:18:55]  That's, I think, very important because the way that you track back Mertz is that he's related to the same type of assassination cabal that went after De Gaulle.
[01:19:07]  Right.
[01:19:08]  So that's very important that he's just sort of hanging around in Dallas for no apparent reason.
[01:19:12]  Oh, yeah.
[01:19:14]  Yeah.
[01:19:14]  So, see, here's the bottom line is simply this, Daniel.
[01:19:18]  Yeah.
[01:19:18]  To this very day, 50 years later, there has never been a full blown, honest, in depth investigation.
[01:19:28]  Yeah.
[01:19:29]  It's true.
[01:19:30]  Never.
[01:19:31]  That's why, you know, the closest they came was the Garrison trial.
[01:19:35]  That's why, and then, see, he got defeated real quick.
[01:19:40]  It only took him about an hour to find Clay Shaw not guilty, although the jury was polled and unanimously said that Garrison had proven to them that there was a conspiracy.
[01:19:52]  They were just not convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Clay Shaw was a member of that.
[01:19:58]  And I have to kind of grudgingly agree with that jury verdict, okay?
[01:20:05]  Because actually, when you get down to it, it's really fascinating to learn about all the connections between Bannister and Ferry and Clay Shaw and Oswald and all this stuff that was going on in New Orleans.
[01:20:20]  But if you get right down to it, lay it all bare, there.
[01:20:24]  Other than Oswald, there's no way to connect any of that to Dealey Plaza.
[01:20:30]  Yeah.
[01:20:31]  Yeah.
[01:20:32]  And so, in a way, the Garrison case helps to expose the New Orleans aspect.
[01:20:38]  Yeah.
[01:20:38]  Yeah.
[01:20:39]  But so the case itself, it almost doesn't matter that he didn't win in that sense.
[01:20:43]  That's right.
[01:20:44]  Well, he got it into a courtroom.
[01:20:47]  In fact, the only reason that we have this approved of him to view publicly today is because Jim Garrison subpoenaed it.
[01:20:54]  Right.
[01:20:55]  And they, in time, fought it all the way to the Supreme Court.
[01:20:58]  Now, here's a tricky one.
[01:20:59]  The Zapruder film exposes the lies of the official story by showing JFK struck from the front.
[01:21:06]  But many experts say the film was altered by intelligence teams.
[01:21:10]  Why would they do that?
[01:21:11]  Oh, well, I think now there's no question in my mind because if you'll check with Doug Horn, the military analyst for the Assassinator Records Review Board, they now have talked to the men.
[01:21:23]  See, when I first saw Crossfire, I raised the questions about the authenticity of the Zapruder film.
[01:21:29]  Right.
[01:21:30]  But at that time, it was kind of like one expert against another expert, and, you know, who knows.
[01:21:36]  But now, today, there's no question in my mind that the Zabruder film was altered prior to going to Time Life, which was on Monday upon the assassination.
[01:21:46]  Because we know on Saturday it was at the National Photographic Interpretation Center of the CIA in upper state New York.
[01:21:53]  And then there were people there who claimed that it had come from an even more secret Kodak processing place called the Hawkeye Plant.
[01:22:03]  And apparently there were several versions made.
[01:22:07]  We also know that, and now the House, not the House, the Assassinated Records Review Board, actually, in my new crossfire, I identify two of the men who are now in the record saying, yeah, I was there when we worked on it.
[01:22:22]  We also know that they had certain still frames blown up and used as presentation boards, I guess you'd say.
[01:22:33]  And that these were prepared and were supposed to go to President Johnson, but he didn't want to look at them.
[01:22:40]  And so they ended up turning them over to the head of the CIA.
[01:22:44]  Oh.
[01:22:44]  Now, this to me is really, really interesting because, as Jack White explained to me, that, you know, they claim the Zapruder film is unaltered because they've got the, they say they've got duplicates of the original film and it includes the sprocket holes and the manufacturer's marks and stuff, and then plus little scratches and stuff that indicates that it came from Zapruder's camera.
[01:23:11]  Okay, but here's how simple, and that super 8mm, you know, the, The frame size on that is, God, I don't know what, like a sixteenth of an inch by a sixteenth of an inch or something like that.
[01:23:22]  Very, very tiny.
[01:23:24]  You can't alter something like that.
[01:23:26]  Yeah, but wait a minute.
[01:23:28]  Chester Brenneman and Robert West, the two surveyors in Dallas, said that on Monday following the assassination, they were hired by Time Life to do surveying work in DV Plaza to get the distances, heights, and trajectories and things.
[01:23:43]  So, like a survey group.
[01:23:44]  Yeah, and that they were given.
[01:23:47]  8x10 color prints of each frame of the Zapruder film.
[01:23:52]  Wow.
[01:23:53]  Wow.
[01:23:54]  And now we find out that they had these presentation boards prepared.
[01:23:58]  So here's what happens you take that, the critical 16 frames of the Zapruder film, you blow it up to 8x10 color photograph print copies, and now you can work with that.
[01:24:14]  You can paint things out, you can shift the frame, you can, you know.
[01:24:19]  Right.
[01:24:20]  Airbrush stuff out, eat anything you want to with it to a certain extent.
[01:24:24]  That's when they very crudely airbrush a dark spot on the back of Kennedy's head so you couldn't see the hole.
[01:24:32]  Okay?
[01:24:33]  And that was described by every medical person in Dallas.
[01:24:39]  And then what you do is once you've got your color prints ready, then you shoot it frame by frame with the Zapruder camera.
[01:24:50]  And then when you run it as a film, it looks like an altered film.
[01:24:54]  And it can be traced to that camera.
[01:24:57]  So, what are the important things that they changed?
[01:25:00]  Well, they put the black spot in the back of Kenny's head to cover up the gaping wound in the back of the head, which indicates a front shot.
[01:25:07]  Right.
[01:25:10]  I think they tilted the thing down to eliminate some of the background so that when the background got changed, see, they have done subtle things, they tried to, they would love to destroy Diddy Plaza as evidence, but they couldn't quite get away with that.
[01:25:26]  So, what they've done is a few little subtle things.
[01:25:28]  There was a manhole cover there for a storm drain that several people claimed that somebody was firing from out of there.
[01:25:35]  That's been cemented over.
[01:25:37]  It's not there anymore.
[01:25:39]  They've closed up the big gap in the fence on the grassy knoll.
[01:25:44]  They have obscured the yellow marks on the curb on the south side of Elm Street, although you can still see vestiges of the yellow paint there, which was marking the kill zone.
[01:25:58]  And, uh, oh, and they've moved some lampposts around so that when you try to correlate it with the photographs in '63, they don't quite line up, which is just, you know, just enough to confuse the average person who's trying to put some stuff together.
[01:26:12]  I gotcha.
[01:26:12]  And do you think that the, uh, did they put the sign in?
[01:26:17]  Uh, they made the sign look like it hadn't been hit by a bullet, or is that?
[01:26:20]  No, they just took it down.
[01:26:22]  It disappeared.
[01:26:23]  It disappeared within a few days.
[01:26:25]  And, uh, and nobody knows.
[01:26:27]  I checked with the, uh, Texas Department of Transportation, which is the only ones that have authority over those highway signs, and they said, No, we didn't take it down.
[01:26:37]  We don't know what happened to it.
[01:26:39]  Now, what's interesting is after mentioning that particular issue on a radio program or something, I got an email from a guy who said that he was in Dallas at the time and that he distinctly remembered seeing a news item on Channel 8, I believe, of the FAA, like a week or so after the assassination.
[01:27:03]  And it showed him, it said the city had taken down the sign.
[01:27:08]  Because they didn't want the bullet holes to remind everyone of the tragedy that took place in Dewey Plaza.
[01:27:14]  Oh, yeah.
[01:27:15]  Wait a minute.
[01:27:17]  So there's two things.
[01:27:18]  Now we know that it was under some authority, legal or otherwise, that took down the sign, and two, that there was a bullet mark on it.
[01:27:26]  Yeah.
[01:27:26]  Exactly as several people said.
[01:27:28]  Well, Jim, with all your research in the case, when you look at the Zabruder film, how do you think the shots work out?
[01:27:36]  Do you think there's a shot from the back, two shots from the front?
[01:27:40]  Well, okay, I'll tell you, but this is all just supposition.
[01:27:47]  The main thing is that let's not worry about how many shots and from where.
[01:27:52]  All we've got to worry about is was it a lone nut or not?
[01:27:55]  Well, if it was not, then it's a conspiracy.
[01:27:57]  If it's a conspiracy, then who could have covered up this conspiracy for 50 years?
[01:28:02]  And the answer is only the highest levels of the federal government of the United States.
[01:28:07]  This is what proves it was a coup d'etat.
[01:28:09]  But to answer your question, You've got two separate sets of acoustical scientists who told the House Assassination Committee that there were as many as nine or even maybe ten shots fired that they could, or sounds on the Dicta Belt that they could not rule out as being a gunshot.
[01:28:31]  Now, the problem was they only test fired from the sixth floor of the book depository and from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll.
[01:28:38]  So it was only from those two locations that they could say emphatically that.
[01:28:42]  Shots came from those two locations, at least one coming from the Grassy Knoll.
[01:28:47]  Now, I suggest that if they had test fired from other locations, the south side of the plaza, or from the Dow Tech's building, or from the top of the county records building, that they might have identified another location where more shots came from.
[01:29:05]  Now, so, but basically, so you could have as many as nine shots, but nine shots, can we account for them?
[01:29:14]  And I suggest, yes, we can.
[01:29:16]  For one thing, if you figure, why would Oswald wait when the car, if he's in the sixth floor of the book depository and the car is coming straight at him on Houston Street, that's your shot because you have a stationary target coming right at you, you know.
[01:29:31]  Why would he wait until the car turned under him and then went downhill laterally away from him on a slope with a tree intervening in the line of sight to take his shot?
[01:29:42]  And there's no reason for that.
[01:29:43]  And the only reason is that I had to put him.
[01:29:46]  In that location, so they could get a triangulation of fire, which is standard ambush sniper technique.
[01:29:53]  Okay.
[01:29:55]  Now, so if you figure that they were doing the typical military ambush style, a triangulation of fire, well, then by definition, that means there's three shooters.
[01:30:05]  Okay.
[01:30:05]  In fact, I think actually we've got probably six because you've got three teams.
[01:30:12]  Okay.
[01:30:12]  You've got a shooter and then you've got a backup guy, just like we do with our snipers today, right?
[01:30:19]  Yeah.
[01:30:19]  Okay, so you got three shooters from three separate locations catching him in a triangulation of fire.
[01:30:26]  Okay, one shot hits him in the back.
[01:30:30]  That's the one that worked its way out, or they took it out.
[01:30:33]  Right.
[01:30:34]  One hits him in the front of the throat.
[01:30:36]  There's two.
[01:30:38]  One hits him in the side of the head.
[01:30:39]  There's three.
[01:30:40]  Actually, I think there were two shots hit him in the right hand side of the head almost simultaneously because in Zapruder film, his head moves forward very violently for just a split second before he's thrown to the rear.
[01:30:54]  So I think he got hit almost simultaneously in the head with these two shots, but the last one coming in came from the knoll and it pushed him to the left rear and into the seat.
[01:31:06]  So there's one, two, three, four shots.
[01:31:10]  Then you got two shots that hit Connolly.
[01:31:13]  One that went through his chest.
[01:31:17]  And then you got one that came from the right, went through his wrist, and ended up in his left leg.
[01:31:23]  So there's three, four, five, six.

=== Gary Mack Controversy (09:51) ===

[01:31:26]  You got one that hit the sign.
[01:31:27]  There's seven.
[01:31:28]  You got one that hit the street.
[01:31:29]  There's eight.
[01:31:30]  And then you got one that messed and hit down near the triple underpass and nicked up some concrete that bloodied Jim Tate's cheek.
[01:31:39]  Nine.
[01:31:39]  Nine shots.
[01:31:40]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:31:41]  Well, that sounds more like what they were doing there and how they were able to pull it off rather than a lucky shot out of the blue, right?
[01:31:49]  You're right.
[01:31:50]  Well, you know, you would never trust a lucky shot on Sunday this morning.
[01:31:56]  The Badge Man photo would be probably the best visual evidence of somebody shooting.
[01:32:03]  But the guy who developed it, you go into this, and I think it's fascinating about Gary Mack.
[01:32:08]  And that's Gary Mack, who now is the director of the.
[01:32:13]  Sixth floor museum, there.
[01:32:14]  That seems very unusual.
[01:32:17]  Well, it's not unusual if you had lived through the whole thing.
[01:32:20]  Because Gary Mack, who at one point was very pro conspiracy, in fact was instrumental in bringing a number of important issues to the front, the badge man photograph being one of them.
[01:32:32]  The police acoustical study, the Dallas police dick belt.
[01:32:38]  He was instrumental in that and was really doing some good.
[01:32:42]  But at that time, he was married, had a nice house in the Suburbs and had a nice job with the TV station as an archivist, and blah blah blah.
[01:32:51]  And the next thing you know, he loses all of that, he's out of a job.
[01:32:57]  And the next thing you know, he's hired as the archivist for the sixth floor museum, and he changes his tune.
[01:33:04]  Yeah, and he starts saying, Well, I don't really believe that there was a conspiracy, there's no proof of that.
[01:33:11]  Right, this is very interesting.
[01:33:13]  He's the guy who provided all this stuff, and the killer is that he was featured in a TV documentary.
[01:33:19]  A few years back, called Inside the Target Car or something like that.
[01:33:24]  And in there, they've got him up on the grassy knoll in a totally different place, different location from the Badge Man photograph.
[01:33:32]  Saying some people said there were people up here on this knoll shooting, but here we are.
[01:33:36]  There's nobody here.
[01:33:36]  There was nobody here, folks, basically.
[01:33:39]  Wow.
[01:33:40]  Okay, Gary, you scum.
[01:33:42]  Wow.
[01:33:42]  You're the one that helped put the photograph out that shows him that he's not this location.
[01:33:46]  He's over on the north south leg of this fence.
[01:33:50]  Well, he had to.
[01:33:52]  I mean, apparently he was co opted.
[01:33:55]  They had to co opt him.
[01:33:56]  They co opted him because he had that badge man reputation, which is, he did bring that out.
[01:34:01]  And I still think when you look at that, that looks to me like evidence.
[01:34:06]  Oh, it is.
[01:34:08]  There's no question in my mind about that.
[01:34:10]  Yeah.
[01:34:10]  And the thing is, they've done so much testing on that.
[01:34:13]  They got the exact same type Polaroid camera and stood at the exact same location that Mary Mormon was in and took a picture of a guy up behind the fence where they.
[01:34:23]  Had figured this badge man photograph figure was.
[01:34:26]  And sure enough, the camera's lens is good enough to pick all that up.
[01:34:31]  You know, that's it.
[01:34:32]  And then I know years ago when I made a presentation to the medical examiner investigators, and these were mostly cops, anyway, trained professional investigators who go out and examine, you know, when there's a death, they go out to determine, you know, if there's anything funny about it.
[01:34:51]  Is this suicide, homicide, incident?
[01:34:53]  Right.
[01:34:55]  And so I made a presentation to these guys, most of whom I knew because I'd known them when they were detectives with Fort Worth Police Department.
[01:35:03]  And they all just said, Yeah, there's a guy firing a gun.
[01:35:06]  And you know, hello.
[01:35:07]  And one of them said, Look, I think he's wearing shooter's glasses.
[01:35:10]  Oh.
[01:35:11]  They were that confident.
[01:35:13]  They were that confident with it.
[01:35:15]  So, how does it feel when you see people like Gary Mack out there who have switched sides on this?
[01:35:20]  And you've done all this research that shows it was a conspiracy.
[01:35:24]  And I mean, you've worked closely with these guys over the years.
[01:35:27]  Does it feel like a betrayal?
[01:35:29]  Well, here's the thing there was another guy named Jim Moore who wrote a book called Conspiracy of One.
[01:35:36]  I always love that title.
[01:35:38]  That's as good as The Lone Gun Men.
[01:35:41]  Yes.
[01:35:44]  And he was arguing that, no, no, no, this held up, and as Oswald did it.
[01:35:49]  And I debated Jim on several different occasions and usually just ripped him up one side and down the other because I had my facts and he had just a few facts.
[01:36:01]  But I never could get upset with Jim Moore because, to the best of my knowledge, I think he truly believed.
[01:36:10]  This, what he was doing.
[01:36:12]  Now you get people like Gary Mack, they know better.
[01:36:15]  Yes.
[01:36:16]  They know better.
[01:36:18]  But for whatever reasons.
[01:36:21]  And, you know, I don't know if it's coercion, I don't know if it's a good go along to get along, or whether they're being paid, or whether they're just bucking for a better job.
[01:36:32]  I, you know, I have no idea.
[01:36:33]  I'm not going to try to put any motivation.
[01:36:38]  But they know better, and yet they stick with this.
[01:36:43]  Phony story.
[01:36:44]  When I say funny story, I think I am more or less being vindicated today because even though, here on the 50th anniversary, we had a whole spate of official documentaries and retrospectives on TV, and of course, the major media all did some kind of something, and it was all geared towards I guess we'll never know, and we just need to bind up the wounds, and blah, blah, blah, and there's still controversy, folks.
[01:37:11]  Right.
[01:37:12]  You know.
[01:37:14]  So they just go along to get along, I guess.
[01:37:18]  That's true.
[01:37:20]  But I do get irked at people who I feel like know better.
[01:37:23]  Yeah.
[01:37:25]  If you disagree with me, that's okay.
[01:37:28]  And we can disagree without being disagreeable.
[01:37:30]  That's true.
[01:37:31]  And I'm certainly willing to listen to any argument you may have.
[01:37:34]  In fact, I like to pride myself on thinking that if you can show me the error of my ways and where some fact that I'm stating is wrong, I'll be the first one to say, hey, I was wrong about that, you know, and I have been wrong about some things.
[01:37:50]  Right.
[01:37:51]  But not very much that gets into print because, as you know from our conversations, I've already told you two and three examples of things that I happen to know, but I don't write about because I can't prove it.
[01:38:03]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[01:38:06]  Well, it seems like these people who switch and change their tune suddenly come into a better position, a better life, better money.
[01:38:14]  Yeah, they seem to do quite well.
[01:38:15]  So it seems like there is still a mechanism that's working there that wants to keep.
[01:38:19]  That story where it is.
[01:38:21]  Exactly.
[01:38:22]  Let's run through just a few of the more interesting witnesses who came forward and said there were other shooters on the scene that day.
[01:38:29]  I know we just recently lost James Tagg, who was nicked by a bullet at the scene, and there were other witnesses that we know were just disposed of for what they saw.
[01:38:37]  So I'd like to get your opinion on some of the more controversial ones, like Gordon Arnold, who claimed he was shooting video from the grassy knoll when shots came from behind him.
[01:38:47]  What do you think of Gordon Arnold?
[01:38:48]  That's a pretty good question, too.
[01:38:52]  I think that in the main, he's probably telling the truth simply because there is photographic evidence and other evidence.
[01:39:04]  Indicate that supports his story.
[01:39:07]  But then on the other hand, he's like any other witness.
[01:39:10]  You just have to take his story and then apply that to all the rest of the information and knowledge we have and just see does it fit, does it not fit, and just kind of go on.
[01:39:24]  See, there's two ways of looking at evidence, particularly at witness testimony.
[01:39:34]  You can either take the optimist view, which I tend to do, which is I tend to believe people until they can be proven wrong.
[01:39:44]  And after that, I don't pay attention to them because I don't deal with liars.
[01:39:50]  Or you can take the cynical view, which unfortunately so many people do, which is to say, well, they're lying and just assume they're lying right off the bat until you can somehow prove to them that it's true.
[01:40:02]  That's why there's still controversy over.
[01:40:06]  The Babushka lady.
[01:40:07]  Yeah, Beverly Oliver.
[01:40:09]  Beverly Oliver, you know.
[01:40:11]  I've met Beverly on several different occasions, been with her in formal interviews and also in social situations, and I can't help but like old Beverly.
[01:40:20]  Sure.
[01:40:23]  But there's controversy there because there's people like me who say, well, she tells a coherent story and it's internally consistent, and she's got some evidence to support what she's saying, and it all makes sense and it all answers the questions.
[01:40:38]  And until somebody else comes forward and says, no, no, wait a minute, that was me, then I'm going to accept that she's the Babushka lady.
[01:40:44]  Sure.
[01:40:45]  Okay?
[01:40:46]  But then you've got a whole bunch of other people, and you're going, well, I don't like the color of that coat, and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
[01:40:53]  Oh, she's just trying to make some money, and blah, blah, blah.
[01:40:55]  Oh, yeah.
[01:40:57]  And so they assume that she's bogus until somebody can prove to them that she's not.
[01:41:01]  And so all it does is just create an ongoing controversy, which, by the way, if I haven't mentioned it, is the methodology of cover up.
[01:41:11]  In this case, there's never been a cover up in the classic sense of lack of information.

=== Secret Service Encounter (06:39) ===

[01:41:18]  In fact, it's quite the opposite.
[01:41:20]  This is cover up by obfuscation.
[01:41:22]  They just throw out so much crap and charge and countercharge and claim and counterclaim that the average person just goes out, turns off, and says, That's it.
[01:41:32]  I don't want to hear anymore.
[01:41:33]  Too much.
[01:41:34]  It's overstimulating.
[01:41:35]  Too much.
[01:41:35]  Yeah, it's got me confused.
[01:41:37]  It hurts my head.
[01:41:38]  That's the end of that.
[01:41:41]  So that's been the cover up.
[01:41:43]  Well, it's an excellent way to work because it has achieved that goal.
[01:41:47]  It has worked quite well, yeah.
[01:41:49]  Some of those witnesses, you know, and I appreciate the way that you go about it, which is you trust them until you have evidence not to trust them.
[01:41:57]  I think that's a better way to go.
[01:41:59]  I think so.
[01:42:00]  And there are witnesses who just, it just seems too good to be true, right?
[01:42:03]  You know, James Files.
[01:42:05]  But I do think Chauncey Holtz is interesting.
[01:42:10]  That's who I was trying to think of.
[01:42:11]  I think he was the other tramp.
[01:42:13]  He's the old guy tramp.
[01:42:15]  Okay.
[01:42:15]  And his daughter seems to think so, too.
[01:42:18]  He looks a lot like him.
[01:42:19]  He does.
[01:42:20]  Yeah.
[01:42:22]  And we have every reason to believe that Chauncey Hogue was in the area at the time.
[01:42:28]  Right.
[01:42:28]  Chauncey Hoad, who said that he was working up the Secret Service identification.
[01:42:34]  And that's another issue that is well documented and never explained, which is there were a lot of people, including Dallas police officers, who claimed they encountered men in suits on the grassy knoll and in other areas who claimed to be Secret Service, showed them identification.
[01:42:52]  And yet, according to the Secret Service, all their agents were either riding in the motorcade or already at the trademark.
[01:42:58]  There were no Secret Service agents on the ground in Deeded Plaza.
[01:43:01]  So, who were these men, and where did they get Secret Service identification that was at least good enough to fool the Dallas policeman?
[01:43:09]  So, they were impersonating.
[01:43:10]  It probably didn't take a whole lot, but they had to be pretty good.
[01:43:15]  But they had to have something, yeah.
[01:43:17]  Yeah.
[01:43:18]  And by the way, are you aware that one of the people who encountered a Secret Service agent was Lee Harvey Oswald?
[01:43:26]  Right.
[01:43:26]  When did that happen?
[01:43:28]  Just a minute.
[01:43:29]  Let me find this for you, real quick.
[01:43:31]  Great.
[01:43:31]  I think I can find it.
[01:43:33]  Okay, this is back.
[01:43:34]  You can look back in the appendices of the Warren Commission.
[01:43:38]  You find Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelly's interview with Lee Harvey Oswald.
[01:43:43]  Okay.
[01:43:45]  And he says, quoting here, at that time he, meaning Oswald, asked me whether I was an FBI agent, and I said that I was not, that I was a member of the Secret Service.
[01:43:56]  And he said he was, when he was standing in front of the textbook building and about to leave it, a young crew cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service.
[01:44:07]  Showed a book of identification and asked him where the phone was.
[01:44:11]  Oswald said he pointed toward the payphone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left.
[01:44:17]  That's incredible.
[01:44:18]  Wow.
[01:44:20]  Wow.
[01:44:20]  We're told that, you know, less than an hour later, a cop stops him in South Oak Cliff.
[01:44:24]  He shoots him.
[01:44:26]  Right.
[01:44:26]  And here's the guy comes up to him and says, Secret Service.
[01:44:28]  And he shows him where the payphone is.
[01:44:32]  Right.
[01:44:33]  But the key thing is that a crew cut man, that sounds about right, and showed him a book.
[01:44:40]  Of identification.
[01:44:41]  Now, at that time, I was a journalist.
[01:44:43]  I carried a press card.
[01:44:44]  But it was a press card.
[01:44:46]  And I'd stick it in my hat, I'd stick it in my pocket.
[01:44:48]  You know, it was just a press card.
[01:44:51]  Who carries a book of identification?
[01:44:53]  FBI, Secret Service.
[01:44:55]  They got those little leather things, you know, with a badge and their ID on it and everything.
[01:45:01]  But now, of course, this was published in the Warren Commission.
[01:45:04]  What are they going to do about that?
[01:45:06]  What if somebody reads this and says, wait a minute, Oswald, he didn't flee, he didn't sneak away.
[01:45:11]  In fact, he helped the Secret Service agent.
[01:45:13]  Gotta do something about that.
[01:45:16]  So, here's what they did, and it's amazing, but this is how the government gets us to doubt ourselves.
[01:45:22]  Okay.
[01:45:24]  When the 6th Floor Museum first opened, I went up there, took a little tour, got one of those little recorders, tape recorder things, and some earphones, and then you listened to this spiel, and it was by a guy named Pierce Allman, who was a newsman, who was one of the newsmen who covered the assassination that day.
[01:45:44]  And in this talk and tour, On the sixth floor, he says, You know, he says, actually, I encountered the assassin, although I didn't remember that.
[01:45:56]  He said, Months after the assassination, the Secret Service came to him and said that he'd encountered Oswald coming out of the School Book Depository.
[01:46:06]  He said, Because weren't you searching for a phone?
[01:46:09]  Yeah, yeah, I was.
[01:46:10]  Well, that was you.
[01:46:12]  So he was all real proud.
[01:46:13]  He said, Wow, I actually got to encounter Lee Hardy Oswald.
[01:46:16]  Well, the trouble is that.
[01:46:22]  McNeil of McNeil Lair Report.
[01:46:24]  Yes.
[01:46:25]  Yeah, now he's on record saying that, you know, I met the assassin.
[01:46:29]  He said a few months afterwards, I didn't really remember this, but the Secret Service came to me and said, you know, when you were looking for a telephone, you encountered Lee Harvey Oswald.
[01:46:39]  And they implanted that in his head, and now he still tells that story, even though by his own initial account, he didn't remember it.
[01:46:47]  And so now, if somebody brings this up and says, well, wait a minute, Oswald encountered a Secret Service agent leaving the book depository, they go, oh, no, no, no, that was just amusement.
[01:46:56]  Oh, it's a reporter.
[01:46:57]  No big deal.
[01:46:58]  Yeah, it's a reporter.
[01:46:59]  No big deal.
[01:47:00]  That's fascinating.
[01:47:01]  Yeah.
[01:47:02]  Isn't that amazing?
[01:47:03]  And then you've got guys like, oh, the guy on the railroad bridge, Sam Holland, okay?
[01:47:11]  And in '66, when it should be still pretty fresh on his mind, and Mark Lane's interviewing him, and he says, So, you know, so where do you think the shots came from?
[01:47:23]  He said, Well, I think it came from over there behind that fence on that grassy knoll.
[01:47:26]  He says, Is that where you believe today?
[01:47:28]  He says, Well, no.
[01:47:30]  He says, Well, where do you believe it came from today?
[01:47:32]  He said, Well, I guess it came from the sixth floor of the school book depository.
[01:47:36]  He said, Well, why do you believe that?
[01:47:38]  He said, Well, the government investigated and they said that's where it took place, so I guess it is.
[01:47:43]  Here's a guy who's been led to doubt his own senses.
[01:47:47]  Unbelievable.
[01:47:48]  Who are you going to believe, your government or your own lying eyes?
[01:47:52]  Well, the suggestion is strong enough that they start to doubt their own senses somehow.

=== Doubting Own Senses (01:29) ===

[01:47:57]  Exactly.
[01:47:58]  Well, and it's peer pressure.
[01:48:00]  You know, every bit of media, hence the public, and the government, and the president of the United States.
[01:48:05]  Holy cow, they're all saying two and two is five.
[01:48:07]  Gee, I guess it must be two and two is five.
[01:48:09]  Right.
[01:48:10]  Well, it does seem like there was a watershed moment there in the early 90s when you came out with Crossfire and Oliver Stone made JFK based on that, and they made the ARRB.
[01:48:23]  That's a huge moment, and I think a lot came out of that.
[01:48:26]  It did.
[01:48:27]  Yeah.
[01:48:28]  But a lot of that has still not been reported.
[01:48:31]  Well, Jim, you've done a lot to get the truth out there about the covert groups that participated in the JFK assassination.
[01:48:37]  As we close out the show today, can you give us your final thoughts on this?
[01:48:43]  Well, here's the thing.
[01:48:44]  I've had people say, well, you know, 25 words or less, what happened to Kennedy?
[01:48:48]  And so I thought, okay, it was Kennedy was shaking up the status quo, and the status quo struck back.
[01:48:55]  Yeah.
[01:48:56]  25 words or less.
[01:48:59]  Well, that sounds right to me.
[01:49:00]  Thanks so much for coming on, Jim, and sharing this with us.
[01:49:03]  I really appreciate it.
[01:49:04]  Thank you.
[01:49:04]  Bye bye.
[01:49:06]  Thank you for joining me for this fascinating overview on the JFK assassination with the great Jim Mars.
[01:49:13]  You can find my latest documentary, Agent Oswald, the CIA Patsy, plus special reports and interviews at youtube.com forward slash dark journalist.
[01:49:26]  See you soon.