Dark Journalist - Dark Journalist & Richard Dolan: Strange UFO Encounters & Intelligence Connections
Aired: 2013-10-20
Duration: 59:27


=== Unconscious Creature Theory (08:02) ===

[00:00:07]  Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
[00:00:09]  Today I have part two of my special interview with historian Richard Dolan for you.
[00:00:14]  Now, in part one, we delved into some controversial topics like UFOs, remote viewing, and the breakaway civilization.
[00:00:23]  In part two, we'll go even deeper, covering high level contactee cases and intelligence operations that are designed to obscure the truth about the secret space program.
[00:00:36]  Now, so many of you have given me fantastic comments on part one of this interview, but I think you're going to like part two even better.
[00:00:45]  Here we go Richard Dolan, Strange Encounters and Intelligence Connections.
[00:01:04]  Just the more you grow up and the more you learn about the world, the more you realize that the world that's presented to us through television and through mainstream media is basically a circus.
[00:01:12]  It's basically all BS and a lot of lies.
[00:01:17]  The cultures, excuse me, the culture and the truths that come to us through television is nothing more than an artificial reality designed to deaden our.
[00:01:34]  Critical thinking.
[00:01:35]  I didn't always believe that, but I absolutely believe it now.
[00:01:42]  Now, Richard, I'd like to go into some of the more fascinating cases that you've covered in your research.
[00:01:49]  I've always found Travis Walton's case, I'm glad that you included it in so in depth in your book and really covered everything about it because there's been a lot of spin about that case over time.
[00:01:59]  And I used to think it was a non, you know, not one of the more legitimate ones, but after reading more about it, it seems very.
[00:02:08]  Strong.
[00:02:10]  But there's two unusual things about that.
[00:02:13]  One is that he was kept for so long.
[00:02:16]  Five days.
[00:02:17]  That's a long time.
[00:02:18]  It's usually an hour in these types of encounters, isn't it?
[00:02:22]  Pretty much?
[00:02:22]  Hour, couple of hours, yeah.
[00:02:24]  Is there another case where somebody is kept for so long and comes back?
[00:02:31]  None that I know of.
[00:02:32]  Yeah.
[00:02:33]  Not one.
[00:02:34]  So that strikes me as very unusual.
[00:02:37]  Well, I think what.
[00:02:38]  Here's why I think it happened.
[00:02:41]  Because.
[00:02:42]  Travis Walton in 1975 was a young logger.
[00:02:46]  He was with a crew of other loggers.
[00:02:48]  They were wrapping up the day at work in the Arizona, a forested area in Arizona.
[00:02:55]  Travis is riding a shotgun in the front of this vehicle.
[00:02:59]  They all see this craft.
[00:03:04]  They didn't see it descending, it just was there.
[00:03:07]  No one knew how it got there.
[00:03:09]  Travis, for whatever reason, to this day, he doesn't really know why fully.
[00:03:13]  Got out of the vehicle and walked toward this craft.
[00:03:15]  And the guys in the truck are saying, Get back here, get back.
[00:03:17]  And he just walks out there.
[00:03:20]  And he's standing very close to it.
[00:03:23]  And he thinks that he made a sudden movement.
[00:03:29]  And maybe that would be why the next thing happened, which was that a bright, white, bluish, white beam comes out of the craft, hits him on the chest, literally knocks him back 10, 15 feet where he's flat on his back, unconscious.
[00:03:45]  Now the guys in the truck think he's dead.
[00:03:48]  They think this thing has killed him and they think that they're next.
[00:03:51]  So they all take off in panic.
[00:03:54]  They drive for five minutes and then Mike Rogers, the driver, says, We cannot leave him there.
[00:03:59]  And overruling the other guys, he drives back.
[00:04:04]  I believe he left them behind in the truck.
[00:04:05]  He said, I'm going to go get him.
[00:04:07]  Travis was gone.
[00:04:08]  Five days.
[00:04:09]  You have teams of hundreds of people combing that area with search dogs, tracking dogs, helicopters.
[00:04:18]  No one found any trace of Travis.
[00:04:20]  Why would he have been gone so long?
[00:04:21]  I think, and Travis thinks, that he was so severely unconscious, maybe near death, maybe dead.
[00:04:29]  He's actually wondered if he was clinically dead.
[00:04:32]  Uh huh.
[00:04:33]  It might have, what it looks like to me is that this actually could have been a mistake on the part of whoever was in this craft and that they did not mean to injure him.
[00:04:44]  Because I really can't think of any other reason why he would have been gone so long.
[00:04:49]  So they take that long to resuscitate him, basically.
[00:04:54]  Maybe in this case.
[00:04:56]  Maybe because he was so badly, badly hurt.
[00:04:59]  It's a theory because the other thing is that Travis himself cannot remember more than, seems to me, an hour and 90 minutes tops of his experience.
[00:05:06]  Right.
[00:05:07]  You've gone for five days, you remember what, an hour and a half?
[00:05:10]  That's it?
[00:05:13]  So there's something askew here, but it makes sense if you theorize that he was essentially unconscious nearly the whole time.
[00:05:23]  And he encounters both these kind of perfect looking humans and greys together.
[00:05:30]  Exactly.
[00:05:31]  How rare is that?
[00:05:33]  Well, I don't think it's not unique.
[00:05:38]  There are certainly other alleged abductions, witness recollections, let's just say, where this is mentioned.
[00:05:47]  Certainly in some of the early MyLab literature.
[00:05:50]  Carla Turner, who unfortunately died before I had a chance to meet her, one of the pioneers in that field, certainly uncovered a number of cases where people would recall human and non human captors at the same time.
[00:06:04]  Oh, very interesting.
[00:06:06]  But Travis.
[00:06:08]  Might have been one of the first.
[00:06:10]  I don't know if he was the first, but he might have been certainly one of the first to describe human along non human.
[00:06:17]  So when he wakes up on the table, he sees these scary looking non human creatures.
[00:06:23]  And in fact, what he ended up doing, he was so weak, but he tried to get off the table and he literally tried to take a swing at one of the creatures.
[00:06:33]  He actually tried to fight it.
[00:06:36]  Probably not a good idea.
[00:06:39]  He was in absolute mortal terror.
[00:06:40]  He said he was so, it was the most frightening thing of his entire life.
[00:06:43]  I mean, how could it not be?
[00:06:45]  He tries to fight, but he was too weak and he couldn't really do anything.
[00:06:49]  And the creatures just filed out of the room.
[00:06:52]  And then he saw this, so he's alone.
[00:06:55]  He's left alone in this place.
[00:06:57]  And he finds a corridor.
[00:06:59]  He goes through it into a larger room, which every time I hear about or hear him talk, it reminds me of almost like the deck of the Enterprise.
[00:07:08]  You know, you're in this larger room with a big window where he sees.
[00:07:12]  Space and stars.
[00:07:15]  And he either sits in a chair or touches a controller, a button, or a switch.
[00:07:21]  He starts messing with the controls, basically.
[00:07:23]  And as he does that, these two humans enter the room, almost like babysitters saying, Don't mess with our ship.
[00:07:32]  Really, that's how I thought of it.
[00:07:34]  But they don't say a word, but they're blonde.
[00:07:37]  They're dressed in unusual type of clothing, like space clothing, I guess.
[00:07:44]  They have long blonde hair.
[00:07:47]  They look like glamorous rock star types, basically, from the description.
[00:07:54]  And then they bring him to another room, which is like a hangar, and there's a lot of other humans there.
[00:07:59]  But they're human looking, but they don't really interact like the way you and I are, or the way normal people were.
[00:08:07]  They're not saying, hey, Travis is okay, don't worry.

=== The Weiner Forest Incident (12:19) ===

[00:08:09]  No one's dealing with him on that basis.
[00:08:12]  And then the next thing he remembered is he's on the highway, off the side of the highway, and the craft is above him, and then it takes off.
[00:08:19]  That's really the sum total of everything he remembered.
[00:08:21]  That's really interesting.
[00:08:23]  Obviously, whoever these beings are who are operating the craft, they possess incredible hypnotic abilities.
[00:08:36]  They have mastered our brain.
[00:08:38]  Yeah.
[00:08:39]  By the way, I will just add, I've gotten to know Travis Walton very well.
[00:08:45]  On one occasion, he and I took a drive alone across the entire state of Pennsylvania.
[00:08:51]  And we just talked about everything.
[00:08:53]  I have to tell you, it's almost a cliche to say about Travis that he's got integrity and he's honest, but it is absolutely the case.
[00:09:02]  But more than that, Travis is a very smart man.
[00:09:05]  We think of him as this young logger, but he was never just an average sort of guy.
[00:09:10]  And I've gotten to understand that he's very smart.
[00:09:14]  I've often wondered, in fact, I asked him privately if he wondered, because he's not like the other loggers that he was working with.
[00:09:21]  He's really not at that level, he's at a higher level.
[00:09:24]  And I said, Do you think that you really were selected?
[00:09:32]  They wanted you.
[00:09:35]  Do you think that there was something going on there?
[00:09:36]  And he doesn't know.
[00:09:38]  Yeah.
[00:09:39]  Now, another case that I think merits some deeper analysis is the so called Alligash incident that took place in Maine.
[00:09:47]  Can you give us an overview here of what took place in that encounter?
[00:09:52]  Incredibly compelling case.
[00:09:53]  I know two of those guys.
[00:09:56]  And the other one I got to meet was Jim Wiener, one of the Wiener twins.
[00:10:01]  Jack is ill these days, unfortunately.
[00:10:06]  But they're art teachers.
[00:10:08]  Yes, yeah.
[00:10:09]  They both, these four guys, it was Jim and Jack Wiener and Chuck Fultz, and then Chuck, I can't remember the other one's last name, who really has not been very close with the other three all these years.
[00:10:25]  He's got his own issues, and it's really not my business to get into any of it.
[00:10:28]  But they.
[00:10:29]  But all of them were on a fishing trip in Maine along the Allagash River, which I mean, in the deep, deeply forested area of Maine.
[00:10:39]  It's one of those things where you could die out there if you're not fully prepared, and it's a major event.
[00:10:46]  But there's four young guys that go out in 1976 on this kind of nature hike expedition, you know.
[00:10:54]  And while they're there, they have this encounter.
[00:10:56]  They have missing time while they're out on the river, right on the boat, and Basically, through a series of recovered memories and then eventually regression, all four remember really the same thing.
[00:11:14]  They're all being taken by non human groups.
[00:11:19]  And various things happen to them.
[00:11:23]  At the end of which, after that experience, all of them seem to have gone through a real transformation.
[00:11:31]  Jack Weiner became incredibly gifted mathematically.
[00:11:35]  Like almost out of the blue.
[00:11:37]  Jim Weiner became this exceptionally interesting artist.
[00:11:41]  Before that, he said he had just been like a regular potter doing conventional, kind of boring run of the mill pottery.
[00:11:48]  He said after that, it just like a switch went on in me.
[00:11:52]  And he's done some really extraordinary work.
[00:11:54]  And Chuck Foltz also, I can't remember some of the details, but he also went through a transformation.
[00:12:02]  So they jump started their creative abilities somehow.
[00:12:05]  Yeah.
[00:12:07]  Right.
[00:12:08]  Now, in their case, that's probably one of the best cases, I would imagine.
[00:12:13]  I think it's a very strong case.
[00:12:16]  All of them are credible, in my view.
[00:12:18]  They're abducted, they get examined, they're let off, they have the hypnotic forgetfulness.
[00:12:24]  And then years later, it comes back to them.
[00:12:26]  But what I found interesting that I heard later was that the two artists started to remember that very, very young they had experiences.
[00:12:38]  Now, that ties back to what you were saying about.
[00:12:40]  With Travis, were they after him?
[00:12:42]  And maybe they were working with him.
[00:12:44]  And this is how maybe some of this works this induction phenomena.
[00:12:50]  So they start very young, they track these people as they get older, they take them in, they examine them, and once in a while, when this happens, it messes up their lives so much that there's this sort of missing time abduction encounter that eventually they recall.
[00:13:05]  Yeah.
[00:13:08]  That's very interesting because it's so methodical.
[00:13:12]  Jim and Jack Weiner I did an interview with Jim and Chuck on my show when it was still called Truth Out Radio.
[00:13:21]  And I blew, I screwed up the interview so badly.
[00:13:24]  I had a fantastic interview with them, but the sound was so bad.
[00:13:29]  It's almost unlistenable.
[00:13:31]  And I feel terrible about it because it was such a great conversation.
[00:13:35]  But I was still kind of new.
[00:13:36]  We were on location somewhere else and there was a lot of wind.
[00:13:40]  And the wind just blasted us all to hell.
[00:13:43]  But the thing, one thing that came out during that was yeah, those two twins, they're unusual.
[00:13:53]  And their father was.
[00:13:56]  In military intelligence during World War II, and was a really, like, actually a really cool spy for the U.S. during the war.
[00:14:11]  And this is all known.
[00:14:13]  And these two twins were somehow psychic in one way or another.
[00:14:19]  They had certain gifts in that regard.
[00:14:21]  And I think that made them of interest.
[00:14:23]  And they actually described a story to me when they were kids of this.
[00:14:31]  University researcher knocking at their door, wanting them to participate in this special program.
[00:14:41]  And their father, and they had no idea what their father's background was at this time.
[00:14:44]  To them, their father was just like, I think he was like a mailman or some clerical guy.
[00:14:49]  They had no idea until years after their father died of what he had done in World War II.
[00:14:55]  So they see their father.
[00:14:58]  There's two guys who come to the door, and their father, Talks to them and he physically throws one against like a wall and either like has his hand around the guy's throat or something very dramatic.
[00:15:16]  And I think he punched the other guy and he threatened them.
[00:15:19]  He said, If I ever see you guys here again, like I'll kill you.
[00:15:25]  Oh, that's intriguing.
[00:15:26]  And I may have gotten a couple of minor things wrong about that, but that's fundamentally what happened.
[00:15:34]  And the boys were like, oh my God, we've never seen dad do this.
[00:15:38]  But what was going on there, they believe, and I believe, they were being monitored.
[00:15:44]  Their dad had a very significant background through US intelligence, so he was already in the system.
[00:15:50]  So someone had identified these boys as being unique or special in some way, and they wanted to bring those boys into the program, and the father wasn't going to let that happen.
[00:16:00]  So I believe that that was related to their abduction.
[00:16:02]  Now, what do you think was going on here?
[00:16:05]  What qualities or special abilities did they possess that made them such great candidates for these abductions?
[00:16:12]  They were, this is my own opinion.
[00:16:14]  I think it happens.
[00:16:16]  If you have certain unique or unusual things about you, that could make you someone of interest.
[00:16:21]  So I think during the Allagash case of 1976, when they were taken, the four of them, my feeling is that the two main targets were the two brothers, but that the two Chucks were just there.
[00:16:36]  They were caught at the wrong time, the wrong place.
[00:16:39]  I think so.
[00:16:41]  One of the most fascinating cases, in my opinion, that you've done some great research on is the Rendlesham Forest incident.
[00:16:50]  Yeah.
[00:16:51]  And I was hoping you can tell me a few things about this case, too, where you have this amazing encounter.
[00:16:58]  You have high level military guys like Colonel Holt talking about it, making reports, and getting a lot of pushback from the bureaucracy about not talking about it.
[00:17:08]  And then you have unusual stories about Peniston later.
[00:17:14]  You know, because he touched the craft having these experiences that he wrote down, which were mathematical again.
[00:17:23]  What do you mean?
[00:17:24]  This case seems, you know, it's beyond credible.
[00:17:27]  It's so, you know, it seems so obvious that Holt and his men went through the experience.
[00:17:35]  But later, there's a kind of a divergence of how it's presented.
[00:17:41]  That's right.
[00:17:42]  And so, can you tell me what you think?
[00:17:44]  I mean, you spent real time on it.
[00:17:46]  I've only seen it.
[00:17:46]  At a distance, what do you actually think of this case and what's happened to it?
[00:17:50]  I think you've characterized this case really well.
[00:17:52]  I think you've got a good basic handle on what's going on here.
[00:17:57]  The Rendlesham Forest case, or sometimes called the Bentwaters case, this happened in December 1980 in England, but at a base that was run by Americans in England.
[00:18:09]  Okay, so that's the basic scenario.
[00:18:11]  And it took place over several days, several nights, I guess we should say.
[00:18:17]  To this day, there's still a lot of confusion about some of the details.
[00:18:20]  And it's one of these cases that we have been learning about through drips and drabs over the years.
[00:18:27]  So the case first made it out to the world in 1983 in a certain version.
[00:18:34]  And what you find is over the years, more and more layers are added upon it.
[00:18:39]  And so our understanding of this case has evolved over the years.
[00:18:45]  I wrote about it back in 2009, and there's been new information about it since then.
[00:18:51]  Which you were just alluding to with Penniston and the binary code.
[00:18:55]  Right.
[00:18:58]  It's hard to know exactly what happened.
[00:18:59]  Was it two nights of activity?
[00:19:01]  Was it three nights of activity?
[00:19:03]  I think it was three, personally.
[00:19:07]  But what we do know is that you have U.S. airmen and officers witnessing activity that does not make sense by any conventional measurement.
[00:19:23]  So it's around Christmas time.
[00:19:25]  December 1980.
[00:19:29]  On one, the first night, people see what they initially think is an aircraft going down, crashing into the forest.
[00:19:37]  Search party goes out.
[00:19:38]  That includes John Burroughs, Airman John Burroughs.
[00:19:41]  That includes, excuse me, Sergeant James Peniston.
[00:19:44]  And it included another airman who, ah, his name is on the tip of my tongue and it's in my book.
[00:19:51]  Anyway, that airman stayed, went with them, but then stayed behind.
[00:19:55]  And then the two other guys go into the forest.
[00:19:59]  And they see what they believe is a landed craft.
[00:20:08]  And eventually we learn that they got very close to this craft and that Penniston, in fact, touched it.
[00:20:14]  Wow.
[00:20:15]  And that he saw the writing and he wrote it down in his notebook, it was in the form of.
[00:20:22]  I have not, I don't know what to make of that whole binary code thing.

=== Approaching Bright Beam (05:01) ===

[00:20:29]  I mean, right now, I don't know what to make of it.
[00:20:32]  That's a recent addition to the story.
[00:20:36]  And there may indeed be something to it.
[00:20:39]  What we, I would say confidently, is that through the testimony of Larry Warren, whom I know, I know Larry and totally believe him, that there was a significant amount of debriefing to all of these guys involved after the fact, where there certainly looks like there was the same kind of mind control or memory management that I was describing to you much earlier in our talk.
[00:21:07]  I think things happen to these guys, and so what are they actually remembering that's accurate or not?
[00:21:14]  I don't know.
[00:21:15]  Let's listen to a clip now that is audio from the actual incident that Colonel Holt recorded.
[00:21:22]  There it is.
[00:21:23]  Hey, I see it too.
[00:21:23]  What is it?
[00:21:24]  We don't know, sir.
[00:21:26]  So you have to try to get some work on that.
[00:21:28]  Yeah, it's a strange, small red light.
[00:21:29]  It looks to be at maybe a quarter and a half mile, maybe further out.
[00:21:34]  Let's switch off.
[00:21:36]  The light is gone now.
[00:21:37]  It was approximately 120 degrees from the site.
[00:21:40]  Is it back again?
[00:21:40]  Yes.
[00:21:41]  Oh, that's the flashlight set.
[00:21:45]  Let's move out to the edge of the clearing so we can get a better look at it.
[00:21:47]  See if we can get the star scope on it.
[00:21:49]  The light's still there, and all the barnyard animals have gotten quiet now.
[00:21:52]  Now, we're heading about 110 to 120 degrees from the site.
[00:21:56]  I'm through to the clearing now, still getting the reading on the meter.
[00:21:59]  About two clicks.
[00:22:00]  Meters drop three to four clicks, getting stronger.
[00:22:04]  Now it's stopped.
[00:22:07]  We're about 150 to 200 yards from the site.
[00:22:08]  Everything else is just deathly calm.
[00:22:12]  There is no doubt about it.
[00:22:13]  There's some type of strange flashing red light ahead.
[00:22:15]  There's yellow.
[00:22:16]  I saw a yellow tinge in it too.
[00:22:19]  Weird.
[00:22:20]  It appears to be maybe moving a little bit this way.
[00:22:23]  It's brighter than it has been.
[00:22:24]  Yellow.
[00:22:25]  It's coming his way.
[00:22:26]  It is definitely coming his way.
[00:22:28]  Pieces are shooting off.
[00:22:31]  There is no doubt about it.
[00:22:33]  This is weird.
[00:22:34]  To the left.
[00:22:35]  Yeah, definitely more than that.
[00:22:37]  Two lights.
[00:22:38]  One light to the front and one light to the left.
[00:22:40]  Keep flashlights off.
[00:22:41]  Here's something very, very strange.
[00:22:44]  Get the headset on.
[00:22:45]  See if it gets any stronger.
[00:22:47]  Okay.
[00:22:47]  This is falling off it again.
[00:22:49]  But it just moved to the right.
[00:22:50]  Yeah.
[00:22:50]  Strange.
[00:22:52]  Oh, what do you mean left?
[00:22:55]  Let's approach to the edge of the woods up there.
[00:22:58]  Do you want to do all that lights?
[00:22:59]  And still carefully.
[00:23:00]  Come on.
[00:23:02]  Okay, we're looking at the thing.
[00:23:03]  We're probably about 200 to 300 yards away.
[00:23:05]  It looks like an eye winking at you.
[00:23:06]  It's still moving from side to side.
[00:23:09]  And when you put the star scope on it, it sort of has a hollow center, right?
[00:23:13]  Dark sirens.
[00:23:14]  They're like a pupil of an eye looking at you and winking.
[00:23:18]  And the flash is so bright to the starscope that it almost burns your eye.
[00:23:23]  We passed the farmer's house and across into the next field.
[00:23:27]  Now we have multiple sightings of up to five lights with a similar shape and all, but they seem to be steady now rather than a pulsating or glow with a red flash.
[00:23:39]  We just crossed the creek and we're getting three good clicks on the meter and we're seeing strange lights in the sky.
[00:23:49]  305, at about 10 degrees horizon, directly north, we've got two strange objects, half moon shape, dancing about with colored lights on them.
[00:24:00]  But it gets to be about 5 to 10 miles out, maybe less.
[00:24:05]  The half moons have now turned into full circles.
[00:24:08]  I know there was an eclipse or something there for a minute or two.
[00:24:13]  0315 now, we've got an object about 10 degrees directly south, 10 degrees off the horizon.
[00:24:16]  And the ones in the north are moving, one's moving away from us.
[00:24:20]  Move not fast.
[00:24:20]  This one on the right is heading away too.
[00:24:24]  Yeah, we're both heading north.
[00:24:30]  Okay, here, here, he comes from the south.
[00:24:32]  He's coming toward us now.
[00:24:35]  Now we're observing what appears to be a beam coming down to the ground.
[00:24:41]  This is unreal.
[00:24:42]  3 30, there's Evo 3 30, and the objects are still in the sky, although the one to the south looks like it's losing a little bit of altitude.
[00:24:49]  We're turning around, heading back toward the base.
[00:24:53]  The object to the south is still beaming down lights to the ground.
[00:24:58]  0 400 hours, one object still hovering over Woodbridge Base at about 5 to 10 degrees off the horizon, still moving erratic and similar lights and beaming down.
[00:25:09]  So, what do we know about the chain of events that happened after this incident?
[00:25:15]  We do know that Charles Halt, who was deputy base commander, wrote a memo describing the event.
[00:25:25]  And he wrote that memo just a couple of weeks after it happened.

=== Nuclear Ordinance Nuance (13:57) ===

[00:25:30]  That memo has its own few mistakes in there, but fundamentally it does describe that these unexplained lights were there.
[00:25:39]  Halt.
[00:25:40]  Later, he described a number of times during interviews that when he went out during the second night of events with his group of people, one of the things that they saw was a light in the sky maneuvering in such a way that it was impossible for an aircraft to do it.
[00:25:57]  And they saw a beam of light come down, like a laser light beam of light come down, penetrating alternate layers of dirt and concrete, dirt and concrete to where nuclear ordnance was being stored.
[00:26:14]  Now, this is important because no one in the world was supposed to know that there were nukes there.
[00:26:19]  Certainly, the British public would have been very upset to hear this because nukes were not supposed to be stored there.
[00:26:28]  It would have been a very big political nightmare.
[00:26:30]  And actually, to this day, it is still not officially acknowledged, even though everybody knows that nukes were there.
[00:26:38]  If you talk to Nick Pope, for example, or some other representative or former representative of the Ministry of Defense, they are unable to say this.
[00:26:48]  I once embarrassed Nick a little bit at a conference in Leeds in England a couple of years ago by just putting it out there.
[00:26:55]  And everyone knows this is the case.
[00:26:56]  Just a quick question on Nick Pope, who's a fairly well known UFO researcher, but was also pretty deep in the UK Ministry of Defense.
[00:27:05]  I think it's a legitimate question to ask if you feel he has any bias towards continuing the secrecy there.
[00:27:14]  I've known Nick for a long time.
[00:27:16]  I've had many beers with Nick Pope, and I like the man.
[00:27:20]  And he knows that I like him.
[00:27:21]  But Nick and I have disagreed on many, many things relating to this and other topics over the years.
[00:27:29]  Whether it's UFOs or whether it's all kinds of other conspiracies, we don't ever seem to agree.
[00:27:37]  And I had a little bit of a public tiff with Nick, anyway, about a year ago, where I called him out.
[00:27:44]  It was during the 2012 Olympics, where he was basically.
[00:27:50]  Made a couple of statements relating to potential alien invasion during the Olympics, and it really turned out that he was just publicizing.
[00:27:56]  He had done work for Sony PlayStation.
[00:27:58]  He was marketing a new video game that they were putting out there.
[00:28:02]  So you feel like it was kind of a fear mongering tactic on his part working with Sony?
[00:28:08]  Yeah, I got a little bit annoyed with him, and I said so publicly.
[00:28:12]  And he said, Look, only an idiot would not notice that I was just doing marketing for this.
[00:28:18]  And I said, Well, no, not really.
[00:28:21]  I think it was pretty sly.
[00:28:23]  You know, the way it was done, actually.
[00:28:24]  But anyway, he used fear porn to sell the video game.
[00:28:31]  That's my opinion.
[00:28:32]  And the UFO field has enough bullshit that it has to deal with, frankly.
[00:28:35]  All right.
[00:28:36]  That it look, it's fine.
[00:28:38]  Go make your money.
[00:28:39]  I'm cool with that.
[00:28:40]  You want to make money, do it.
[00:28:41]  But don't soil my field.
[00:28:46]  All right.
[00:28:46]  Don't make my work any more difficult than it is.
[00:28:49]  I thought that's what he did.
[00:28:50]  Anyway, back to the Rendlesham case.
[00:28:52]  What we're really talking about is an object that.
[00:28:57]  Was interested in the nuclear ordinance there.
[00:28:59]  And as Halt had said privately in an interview to my friend Peter Robbins and Larry Warren, he said that object adversely affected the ordinance.
[00:29:08]  That was his exact words, according to Peter.
[00:29:10]  Well, there appears to be a strong connection between UFO sightings and these nuclear sites.
[00:29:15]  Yeah, that's quite interesting, is it not?
[00:29:17]  Well, it's also terrifying, I guess, depending on how you look at it.
[00:29:23]  Well, and the other thing about the Randlesham case, and I did not, I wish I had gotten into this in my book.
[00:29:27]  I should have.
[00:29:29]  If I ever revise that section, I will, but it occurred during a period of real heightening of the Cold War.
[00:29:35]  This is the era in which the Polish Union solidarity was very big.
[00:29:41]  And there were some severely heightened tensions at that time between the United States and the Soviet Union.
[00:29:47]  And the Bentwaters base was the forward nuclear base that NATO had at the time.
[00:29:54]  So, in other words, if there was ever going to be a nuclear exchange, those nukes would have been the ones to have been used.
[00:30:00]  Very interesting.
[00:30:01]  Yeah.
[00:30:01]  So.
[00:30:03]  Now, I have no idea if there were plans to activate them or to do whatever, but the fact is that is the case.
[00:30:11]  It was the forward nuclear base for NATO at that time.
[00:30:14]  Well, the nuclear connection brings us back to the original breakthrough case of Roswell, because Jesse Marcel was the intelligence officer for the atomic bomb group in New Mexico at that time, right?
[00:30:26]  Jesse Marcel Sr., yeah, was the chief intelligence officer for the 509th Bomb Division, which was based out of Roswell Army Airfield.
[00:30:34]  And Roswell Army Airfield, the 509th, was the, at that time, the only military unit in the world that had atomic weapons.
[00:30:48]  They were the only one.
[00:30:49]  It's clear these objects are interested in nuclear technology, for sure.
[00:30:55]  Where at times they've even disabled those nuclear technologies.
[00:30:59]  So these military guys, Holt, Penniston, and.
[00:31:06]  Warren and some others see these lights and they're over the sort of nuclear storage facilities, shining lights down and shutting down some of them.
[00:31:17]  It appears.
[00:31:18]  It appears, yes.
[00:31:19]  And so then he files a report and then what?
[00:31:24]  There's no paper trail of a follow up investigation that Halt, from Halt's memo.
[00:31:33]  You know, the British MOD, I've got this here somewhere, did release.
[00:31:38]  Their papers relating to the case, and all of it's just fluff because nearly all of it is just their correspondence with interested members of the public.
[00:31:46]  Like, none of it really deals with any kind of internal investigation of what actually happened.
[00:31:51]  So, it seems like this case would have disappeared, but something strange happened where the memo got out.
[00:31:57]  Well, yeah, and that's due to Larry Warren, whom all the other major participants in the case disparaged, but it actually was through Larry Warren that we know about this case.
[00:32:05]  Larry Warren had what he claimed to have been an encounter on one of those nights.
[00:32:12]  And it was through him that in 1983, the British press, I think it was October of 83, the British press publicized it.
[00:32:23]  And it was through Larry Warren working with some American researchers.
[00:32:28]  Larry Fawcett, I don't think he's alive anymore, but Larry Fawcett was a significant researcher at the time who was doing freedom of information requests.
[00:32:41]  And they were able.
[00:32:44]  To get that memo by Charles Holt released.
[00:32:48]  And in fact, I'm glad you're mentioning this.
[00:32:50]  I'm trying to remember the exact way that they got it out.
[00:32:53]  It was not, I think it was not released by the United States, but they somehow were able to get it through the UK.
[00:33:03]  I think that's how it went.
[00:33:06]  It was one or the other.
[00:33:06]  Either the UK said no, we don't have it, but they got it through the US, or the US said no and they got it through the UK.
[00:33:12]  And I actually can't remember which now.
[00:33:14]  So it hits the newspaper.
[00:33:16]  But it was based on the newspaper account, which outed the whole thing, and then they were able to get the memo.
[00:33:23]  And then years go by again, where we get further away from it.
[00:33:28]  But at a certain point, they decide they're going to talk about what happened to them.
[00:33:33]  Well, yeah, I think what happened, like Halt did not want to talk for years.
[00:33:38]  Pennison and Burroughs did not want to talk for quite some time.
[00:33:43]  It was only Larry Warren.
[00:33:44]  I think this is really why Larry has been blacklisted, because he really broke ranks.
[00:33:50]  He was the one who got the story out.
[00:33:51]  And Charles Holt, I mean, I've met all of these guys, and I like John Burroughs immensely.
[00:33:57]  He's just a really nice guy.
[00:34:00]  And I don't know James Peniston well, I've only slightly interacted with him.
[00:34:04]  And I got to talk with Charles Holt, and he's.
[00:34:09]  Yeah, well, he keeps his cards close to his chest, which that's.
[00:34:13]  But he.
[00:34:16]  You know, and they all attack Larry Warren.
[00:34:19]  Now, how does Warren's account differ from theirs?
[00:34:22]  Well, Larry Warren has said that there was on the third night of encounters, he was involved.
[00:34:31]  And he was out, there was a large group of people, like over 100.
[00:34:37]  And that the base commander, Colonel Gordon Williams, was there.
[00:34:44]  And that there was a landed craft.
[00:34:48]  That they could see, somehow, they were able to make out that there was a non human being inside the craft.
[00:34:55]  That there was communication between Commander Williams and these beings.
[00:34:59]  I mean, it was a pretty intense sort of scenario that he described that all of the other participants have said, no, that did not happen.
[00:35:09]  So, he has more of a kind of contactee type experience with it.
[00:35:15]  And it sounds like with the other ones, they're just sort of watching the craft.
[00:35:19]  I guess you could say that.
[00:35:20]  Although Pendison claimed, you know, during the first night when he touched the craft, that he basically got this download of binary code.
[00:35:27]  But, um, Yeah, in Warren's case, I don't know if I would call it contacting in the classic sense, but that there was this face to face communication.
[00:35:37]  And then the other thing Larry Warren described was their debriefing, which was at this underground facility.
[00:35:42]  And I mean, a massive kind of involved underground, underwater base.
[00:35:49]  And then describing threats that were used against them.
[00:35:57]  One guy said, bullets are cheap.
[00:36:00]  You know, we'll just take you out if you want to talk about this, describing what appears to be mind control and a lot of other things.
[00:36:09]  And that sort of thing has also been very much denied by Halt and the others, yeah.
[00:36:18]  And I mean, personally, I believe Larry Warren on this in fundamentals.
[00:36:24]  Now, Larry did actually, it came out that he was not 100% truthful when he described that debriefing.
[00:36:34]  And the reason is not that he is actually lying.
[00:36:38]  But that he was speaking for his friend, who was another person involved named Adrian Bastenza.
[00:36:43]  Adrian Bastenza did experience that debriefing and was really traumatized by it and told Larry who they were sharing the same quarters.
[00:36:54]  So they were very close.
[00:36:56]  Larry knew the story and felt that the story needed to get out there, but Adrian was absolutely not going to go public.
[00:37:03]  So what Larry did at that time, you know, think he's not a scholar, he's a young guy in his 20s in the military.
[00:37:09]  He's thinking, this is what I'm going to do.
[00:37:10]  I'll get the story, and I'll just claim it as my own.
[00:37:12]  So he conflated his experience with this other guy's.
[00:37:16]  That's right.
[00:37:17]  And so then that came out years later, many years later, and then more people said, aha, liar.
[00:37:23]  But really, I think the world's a little more complicated than just these little black and white issues.
[00:37:27]  I think we have to understand that there's nuance in what's going on here.
[00:37:32]  That's what happened with Larry, though.
[00:37:34]  What they all agree upon is that the craft was there over those nights, and that they went out and checked it out, and.
[00:37:43]  Does everyone agree that Peniston touched it?
[00:37:47]  Well, there's only a couple of people who would, it's only Peniston and Burroughs who could have been witnesses to that.
[00:37:52]  And Burroughs, I assume that he's, I mean, they're writing a book together, which Nick Pope is working on with them.
[00:38:00]  So clearly, I'm sure Burroughs agrees that that's what happened.
[00:38:05]  I mean, as far as everyone can get in getting this account in their conscious memory, It seems that Pennison got a little closer than Burroughs.
[00:38:16]  They were both pretty close.
[00:38:17]  Burroughs got up to it, but he didn't approach, I don't know, maybe 20 feet, I'm guessing 10, 20 feet.
[00:38:24]  Pennison actually went up and touched it.
[00:38:27]  But they were the only two guys there.
[00:38:30]  Considering the high level witnesses in this case, like Colonel Holt, do you think the Bentwaters Rendlesham case is perhaps the most important UFO incident on record?
[00:38:41]  I think it's an excellent case, certainly in terms of its dramatic impact.
[00:38:45]  You could consider it a top five case, maybe in UFO lore.
[00:38:49]  Some people say it's number one.
[00:38:53]  All of every good UFO case, I don't think there's an exception, is going to come under controversy.
[00:38:59]  If for no other reason than because it's a good case, you're always going to have skeptics taking shots at it, they're going to knock it down.
[00:39:08]  There's not an exception to that.
[00:39:09]  In the Randallson case, you're dealing with a number of witnesses in the military, and they're dealing with a military security complex that really doesn't want.
[00:39:20]  The story to come out in a way that's embarrassing or compromising to them.

=== New Age Intelligence Mix (10:09) ===

[00:39:27]  So you're facing all of these obstacles.
[00:39:30]  And there's going to be a lot of lack of clarity, I think, regarding this case, no matter how hard we try.
[00:39:36]  But yes, I agree.
[00:39:36]  I think it's a very compelling case.
[00:39:39]  I spent about 10 pages trying to describe it in my book.
[00:39:43]  Yeah, it's a great overview.
[00:39:45]  You've mentioned this covert intelligence world and how they manipulate the topic of ET contact.
[00:39:51]  Where else do you see their influence in alternative research?
[00:39:57]  Yeah, look at the New Age movement.
[00:39:59]  Look at the New Age movement.
[00:40:02]  I haven't really gotten all the specifics down, what I think, but I think that what we're seeing in a lot of what we call New Age culture, some of this is intel community, personal belief.
[00:40:15]  I'm not going to name any names at this point.
[00:40:17]  I don't know if I ever will.
[00:40:18]  I don't know if I ever really have enough evidence to do it, but it follows very much the same type of sort of structure, it seems to me, from what I can tell, that you get with the hippie movement back then.
[00:40:33]  And really, what does the New Age movement do?
[00:40:36]  It really takes us away from the actual political issues of our era.
[00:40:40]  You know, have the right intention, have the right thought, you'll make a better world through that rather than through organized action, rather than through collective hard work, which is really what we need if we're going to take down, and I mean take down, a global fascist system that seeks to control you and me and everyone watching this for the rest of their lives.
[00:41:06]  And it has to be fought.
[00:41:09]  And you can't just fight it by elevating your heart chakra and the intention of love.
[00:41:14]  And I'm not trying to diminish that, by the way.
[00:41:17]  I believe in love and I believe in good intention.
[00:41:19]  But you have to fight.
[00:41:22]  That means going onto the street, and that means all kinds of nasty confrontations.
[00:41:26]  Otherwise, the system's not going to come down.
[00:41:28]  It has to be fought.
[00:41:30]  And what the New Age movement is really doing is well, it's not getting us.
[00:41:39]  A true political education, that's for sure.
[00:41:42]  Huh.
[00:41:42]  So you think that the New Age movement is too much about passivity, is what you're saying?
[00:41:48]  Yeah.
[00:41:49]  It promotes a subjectivist, kind of self absorbed way of looking at the world, frankly, rather than one in which we need to organize with each other for genuine positive political change.
[00:42:05]  You know, when you see protests against the World Trade Organization or GATT.
[00:42:10]  Or the G20 or whatever, those are not new agey things.
[00:42:15]  Those are political action events.
[00:42:18]  That's what we need to, at least from the point of view of those people at the top of our little human pyramid, I can guarantee you they'd be much happier seeing everyone contemplating their navels than out in the streets fighting police or throwing acoustic weaponry at them and all these other things.
[00:42:36]  They would much rather have it to see a passive population than one that's actively engaged in questioning things.
[00:42:43]  I think one of the things that's great about your work is you have this incredible tapestry of things to draw upon.
[00:42:49]  A lot of political knowledge, all your work as a historian studying the Cold War, you understand how they hide things.
[00:42:56]  And one of the biggest obstacles, I think, for people to understand the topic is that they don't think that things are hidden that way, that they don't believe that the cover up is so overwhelming the way that it is.
[00:43:10]  It's hard for me to come to that conclusion.
[00:43:13]  20 years ago, as I was just really beginning my.
[00:43:18]  My journey into this field, I would say that I had a very kind of a conventional view of how cover ups worked.
[00:43:26]  And my attitude was there are lots of little cover ups.
[00:43:29]  That is how things are often done.
[00:43:30]  But grand overarching conspiracies, no, I didn't really believe it.
[00:43:34]  I had been kind of trained not to believe that through my years of training as a historian and through graduate school and dealing with PhD historians on a regular basis.
[00:43:45]  That's not what they believe.
[00:43:47]  You know, the absolutely universally prevailing wisdom in the academic world is that grand conspiracies get real.
[00:43:54]  That's what crazy people think.
[00:43:56]  And so it took me a long time in this field to come to the conclusions I did, but here's how I did.
[00:44:06]  It's primarily a matter of logic.
[00:44:09]  You have a phenomenon that presents itself again and again and again to the national security community, not just of America, but of other nations as well.
[00:44:19]  It's obviously there.
[00:44:21]  So then you ask another logical question.
[00:44:24]  This is what I did, which is, All right, so this is real.
[00:44:29]  Where has our media been?
[00:44:30]  Where has our journalistic community been?
[00:44:33]  Where were they in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s?
[00:44:36]  When this is obviously happening, why did they not report it in a responsible way, in an accurate way?
[00:44:43]  And so that question led me to delve more deeply into the relationship of the world of media and the intelligence community.
[00:44:55]  And guess what you find?
[00:44:56]  You find that the intelligence community has penetrated the world of media.
[00:45:00]  Through and through and through.
[00:45:02]  So you think, aha, now do we call this a conspiracy?
[00:45:07]  Well, I don't know.
[00:45:07]  You call it control of one form or another.
[00:45:11]  And you ask the same question about the political world where are the politicians?
[00:45:14]  Why haven't they made this into an issue?
[00:45:16]  And you find the same types of things apply that there's actually very, very significant levels of collaboration and control among these worlds.
[00:45:27]  And then just the more you grow up and the more you learn about the world, the more you realize that the The world that's presented to us through television and through mainstream media, it's basically a circus.
[00:45:36]  It's basically all BS and a lot of lies.
[00:45:44]  The culture and the truths that come to us through television is nothing more than an artificial reality designed to deaden our critical thinking.
[00:46:00]  I didn't always believe that, but I absolutely believe it now.
[00:46:04]  In fact, I'm just reading now, finally, it took me several years to.
[00:46:07]  Get around to it, but I'm nearly done reading a fascinating study called The Strange But Mostly True Story of Laurel Canyon, The Birth of the Hippie Generation.
[00:46:18]  And this is online, and in fact, I recommend it to anyone.
[00:46:21]  I'm absolutely just taken by this.
[00:46:24]  What he argues makes a very good argument is that the Laurel Canyon's in California, and it's near LA.
[00:46:33]  And in the 1960s, it was a pretty quiet area, and yet for some reason, Many of the main people who would soon become cultural icons, like Jim Morrison and David Crosby and Stephen Stills and a lot of other, like Frank Zappa and Charles Manson, all descended upon this place, Neil Young, when there was nothing there.
[00:46:59]  Very interesting.
[00:47:00]  Really.
[00:47:01]  And the question is why?
[00:47:03]  Well, it turns out all of these people, all of them, were children of naval intelligence.
[00:47:10]  Uh huh.
[00:47:12]  All of them had very unusual backgrounds, which this author goes into in fascinating detail.
[00:47:22]  And Laurel Canyon also had a long time intelligence community presence, housing a complete kind of motion picture production studio that was probably the largest in the world.
[00:47:36]  But it wasn't for Hollywood, it was all for internal intelligence community military purposes.
[00:47:41]  Who knows what they were making there?
[00:47:44]  Think about it, okay?
[00:47:46]  This is just a more extreme version of things that we've already known the CIA has done for years.
[00:47:50]  We know there have been very legitimate academic studies that have shown how the CIA has infiltrated other supposedly independent cultural institutions to manage them, both conservative and liberal.
[00:48:01]  It doesn't matter.
[00:48:03]  Because by controlling both ends of the spectrum, you're controlling the limits of legitimate debate.
[00:48:09]  See?
[00:48:11]  And they have done this, but this extreme to create the counterculture, hippie culture, it's a breathtaking argument.
[00:48:20]  And I think he's right on.
[00:48:23]  Well, it's interesting because the 60s are so phenomenal in this way, and that they are so advanced in their thinking that you would have to kind of take out the leaders in some way, because otherwise you'd have a pretty advanced, enlightened culture when you were finished.
[00:48:39]  It was necessary to disable the legitimate peace movement at that time, which was becoming very strong in college campuses around the United States.
[00:48:49]  People who were intelligent, political, right?
[00:48:53]  And suddenly, now all these hippies come in with long hair and free love and drugs and all of this other stuff.
[00:48:58]  It's like, what the hell happened to the peace movement?
[00:49:00]  That's what happened.
[00:49:01]  So it was a way to disable the legitimate peace movement.
[00:49:06]  Well, what's great about your stuff is going along there, reading this UFO book, and there's a thing in there about, like, you know, John Lennon's assassin and the assassin of Reagan going to the same kind of Christian summer camp.
[00:49:22]  You know, that's a.
[00:49:24]  You know, that was in a piece of information from the late Jim Keith, who also died mysteriously.
[00:49:33]  Jim Keith was a conspiracy writer.

=== Hinckley and the Peace Movement (07:20) ===

[00:49:37]  His books on my wall here.
[00:49:38]  All my books are kind of disjointed now, they're not in the order that they were a couple of years ago.
[00:49:43]  But oh, let's get a shot at that bookshelf.
[00:49:45]  There has to be some terrific books in there.
[00:49:48]  So this is my UFO library.
[00:49:51]  And then now I don't want to show you, but it's so messy.
[00:49:54]  But if you go back, this is the rest of my.
[00:49:57]  Office down there, see all the boxes and other shelves and all that crap over there.
[00:50:02]  Oh, that's great!
[00:50:03]  It's like the writer's lair.
[00:50:04]  This is my UFO's library, but over here is uh somewhere in this section here.
[00:50:08]  I think I've got Jim Keith.
[00:50:09]  Oh, yeah, there it is.
[00:50:10]  I'll show you.
[00:50:11]  Wait, don't go away.
[00:50:14]  Here we go.
[00:50:16]  I believe it's in this book here.
[00:50:20]  Uh, good book, Mind Control, Mind Control, World Control.
[00:50:24]  Jim Keith.
[00:50:25]  I don't know if you can see that.
[00:50:27]  There you go.
[00:50:29]  Yeah, it's cool.
[00:50:29]  This is published by Ken Thomas.
[00:50:34]  Well, it's Adventures Unlimited Press, so it's David Hatchett Childress.
[00:50:38]  But I think this book.
[00:50:41]  Oh, yeah, I just finished the UFO and Maury Island book by Ken Thomas.
[00:50:46]  Yeah, that's a great book.
[00:50:47]  I've got that somewhere here.
[00:50:49]  But anyway, with Jim Keith, what he pointed out is that Mark David Chapman, John Hinckley Jr., so he's the guy that they said had emotional problems.
[00:51:00]  Right.
[00:51:00]  John Hinckley Jr., Was the shooter of Ronald Reagan.
[00:51:04]  He's the Jodie Foster.
[00:51:06]  Right.
[00:51:06]  So we're told that stupid bullshit lie that Hinckley was in love with Jodie Foster.
[00:51:12]  Well, a lot of guys are in love with Jodie Foster, so I can get that part.
[00:51:15]  Okay, fine.
[00:51:17]  I've had a Jodie Foster thing.
[00:51:18]  I admit it.
[00:51:19]  I'm not ashamed.
[00:51:19]  She's great.
[00:51:20]  So we like the Jodie.
[00:51:22]  But so Hinckley, okay, but we're told that he had this demented view of impressing Jodie Foster and he's going to kill the president.
[00:51:31]  Who knows?
[00:51:31]  Right.
[00:51:32]  Well, here, as Jim Keith pointed out, And other people have pointed out too, not just him now.
[00:51:39]  John Hinckley Jr. wasn't just some schmuck off the street who had mental problems.
[00:51:45]  John Hinckley Jr. was a son of John Hinckley Sr.
[00:51:49]  And who is John Hinckley Sr., but a very close friend of Vice President George Bush?
[00:51:54]  Wow.
[00:51:55]  Okay.
[00:51:56]  Very close friend.
[00:51:58]  He and Bush were Texas oil buddies.
[00:52:01]  They went way back.
[00:52:03]  Okay.
[00:52:04]  So that's one.
[00:52:04]  So he's a powerful member of the Republican Party.
[00:52:07]  That's one thing.
[00:52:08]  Another thing is that Hinckley Sr., this is where Jim Keith adds this, was, you're never going to prove these things, but he said almost certainly, I believe, Head of a church called World Vision Inc., World Vision Incorporated, which is one of these CIA churches, which is what they did.
[00:52:29]  They do this kind of thing.
[00:52:30]  Right.
[00:52:31]  Just like they got into the hippie culture, just like they're probably into the New Age culture, they're into all of this stuff.
[00:52:38]  So, this is like a basically the way it looked like is a kind of mind control church.
[00:52:43]  And it was rumored.
[00:52:46]  So, apparently, he was in charge of that, but the rumor was that Mark David Chapman, Had also gone there.
[00:52:53]  That's what it was.
[00:52:54]  The killer of John Lennon.
[00:52:56]  So you've got all these weird things going on here.
[00:52:58]  And none of the Hinckley family connection to Bush, if nothing else, should have been discussed in the mainstream media.
[00:53:05]  And of course, it just was not.
[00:53:09]  I mean, think about it.
[00:53:10]  Just from a normal, like if this had happened in another country, guy shoots the president, turns out that his family is really close with the vice president.
[00:53:21]  So had Reagan died, George Bush would have become president.
[00:53:26]  Reagan really should have died in that, by the way.
[00:53:29]  I mean, Reagan was saved just because he happened to have, as a surgeon, one of the very top surgeons in the world for that type of gunshot wound.
[00:53:38]  I mean, Reagan got lucky.
[00:53:40]  He had a fantastic guy working on him.
[00:53:42]  And then he survived and wrote out, did his eight years.
[00:53:46]  Well, what's amazing is that it happened so very early in his presidency.
[00:53:51]  His second month.
[00:53:52]  So it seems very logical that, yeah.
[00:53:55]  You know, they could have been setting it up to do that.
[00:53:57]  Although it's interesting to think that they would have such a traceable person back to Bush who would be doing it.
[00:54:05]  That's kind of fascinating.
[00:54:06]  You'd think so, but look, guess what?
[00:54:08]  History proves that they were right in their arrogance because there was no follow up.
[00:54:12]  He got away with it.
[00:54:13]  True.
[00:54:14]  True.
[00:54:14]  So you would think that in a logical world where there's justice and a media that actually does its job, watchdog media instead of a lapdog media.
[00:54:23]  So in the normal world, yes, it would be taking an incredible risk.
[00:54:27]  But even in 1981, apparently they felt that they had it all sewn up.
[00:54:31]  And I guess they did.
[00:54:34]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:54:36]  And Mark David Chapman, he went to Lebanon for a couple of months, which was part of his, you know, kind of like time abroad doing charity work or something.
[00:54:50]  Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:54:52]  Yeah.
[00:54:52]  I thought he was in Hawaii, wasn't he?
[00:54:54]  Yeah.
[00:54:56]  Lebanon, I had not heard.
[00:54:57]  I'll track that down for you and send you.
[00:54:59]  Info on that because I remember thinking it was completely legit.
[00:55:03]  Well, think about Lebanon in the late 70s.
[00:55:07]  That's civil war.
[00:55:08]  That's nasty.
[00:55:10]  You don't just have regular tourists going into Lebanon.
[00:55:13]  If you're going into Lebanon at that time, you're probably working with an outfit of some sort.
[00:55:19]  That's like saying, yeah, I'm hanging out in El Salvador in the mid 1960s and late 60s just as a tourist.
[00:55:26]  No.
[00:55:26]  I mean, that's all CIA activity or in any area.
[00:55:31]  Any era.
[00:55:32]  So for Chapman doing that, that's very interesting.
[00:55:35]  I didn't know that.
[00:55:36]  Well, you've got Hinckley, you know, he's got the Jodie Foster thing, and then Chapman has Catcher in the Rye.
[00:55:43]  J.D. Sounder, yeah.
[00:55:44]  So he's got this whole story, right?
[00:55:47]  This is all mind control stuff.
[00:55:49]  I mean, how obvious do you want to make it?
[00:55:51]  You've got these guys who, and then Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy.
[00:55:55]  To this day, he says he cannot remember doing it.
[00:55:58]  I believe that.
[00:56:00]  Chapman, obviously deranged.
[00:56:03]  He's obviously been worked in his head.
[00:56:06]  Someone did something to him.
[00:56:09]  Again, we have to understand the science of mind control.
[00:56:12]  It's much more palpable, it's much more advanced than I think most people really understand.
[00:56:18]  You can create a Manchurian candidate and.
[00:56:21]  That gives you perfect deniability, perfect cover.
[00:56:24]  You know, if I can create a Manchurian candidate and I have, I say, you know, kill that person, hey, I'm not at risk.
[00:56:31]  He's not, you know, through hypnosis, mind control, drugs, whatever.
[00:56:38]  So, you know, how to get to the bottom of it, we need an open public discussion on this stuff.
[00:56:45]  And we're not really getting it now.
[00:56:50]  Right.
[00:56:50]  And like you said, we're just catching up to these techniques now, and they're probably 40 years down the road.

=== Thank You for Daring Research (02:30) ===

[00:56:57]  So that's an excellent point.
[00:57:01]  Just a final thought on your UFOs and the National Security State book, Volume 2.
[00:57:08]  There's a lot of daring information and commentary in this book, and also a lot of controversial cases.
[00:57:14]  How did you choose which encounters to include?
[00:57:18]  This field has so many minefields in it that inspire terror in me.
[00:57:25]  The book that we were talking about, my second volume, there's Probably 50 more cases that I actually was literally afraid of writing about, from Bob Lazar to Gulf Breeze to even Travis Walton.
[00:57:36]  All of them are complex and all of them, they're almost treacherous to navigate your way through to figure out what is the truth.
[00:57:44]  And the Lazar whole thing, we'll have to talk about this another time, but that was just one of many that I was truly nervous about trying to cover because a case like that, you just know there's so many disparate, strongly held opinions on various sides.
[00:58:03]  I think you get a good treatment, actually, on that because you can really feel that you're weighing it out.
[00:58:10]  And yet, it's such a fascinating case that it certainly merits a good look.
[00:58:16]  It has to be.
[00:58:17]  Didn't it create an entire phenomena of Area 51?
[00:58:20]  I mean, pretty much.
[00:58:21]  Yes.
[00:58:22]  So, for that reason alone.
[00:58:25]  But anyway, it's outstanding.
[00:58:27]  And that book is outstanding, by the way.
[00:58:28]  I've really spent a lot of time with it, and it's a terrific read.
[00:58:33]  Thanks a lot.
[00:58:34]  I enjoy writing as much as I enjoy doing the historical research.
[00:58:37]  That's the truth.
[00:58:38]  So, the art of writing, the craft of writing, has always been important to me.
[00:58:43]  Richard, this has just been terrific.
[00:58:45]  I want to thank you for going into such depth on these very complex issues.
[00:58:51]  I hope listeners realize that this is not a run of the mill interview that I do.
[00:58:55]  Well, we all appreciate your excellent research and writing.
[00:58:59]  The site is richarddolanpress.com.
[00:59:03]  And you can find all of Richard's work there.
[00:59:06]  Thanks again for being with us, Richard.
[00:59:09]  I just wanted to thank you for the interview, it was really a pleasure.
[00:59:13]  Thank you for joining me for part two of my special interview with historian Richard Dolan.
[00:59:19]  You can find more special reports and interviews at youtube.com forward slash dark journalists.
[00:59:27]  See you soon.