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July 4, 2025 - The David Knight Show

03:00:26

Fri Episode #2047: COMPILATION: The Lies They Told You: OKC, Big Pharma, Green Energy & More

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	All right, joining us now is Alexandra.
	She has an organization, JustTheInserts, at justtheinserts.com.
	You can also find her on Instagram under that name, JustTheInserts, and also on X under that name as well.
	And I wanted to get her on because many of you know our family's history with us, and I think it is very important.
	We've seen what has happened to the medical community, and we need to take control of what goes into our body.
	And so there needs to be informed consent, and that's what she is all about.
	Thank you so much for joining us, Alexandra.
	Thank you for having me on.
	It's a joy to be here.
	Well, thank you.
	You know, the listeners here know the history of what has happened with my family.
	We just had our son was injured by what they call phloxen, you know, some of the fluorochloroquins and going back to Cipro.
	And when we went to another place where they had supplements, a drugstore, we went in and Karen and I, we were looking for a particular supplement that somebody had recommended to kind of counter that.
	And the person behind the counter that was the pharmacist there was wearing a mask.
	And the other person, you know, we told them, well, we're looking for this.
	And so, why are you looking for that?
	And so we, so we told him.
	And the other person that was there that was just kind of a helper, wasn't the pharmacist, said, you know, it's gotten to the point where those inserts are so scary, I don't even want to read them.
	And I thought, wow, that is the saddest thing I've ever seen because you better believe that the stuff that is there is not only possible, but it was possible to such an extent that they put it in there to cover themselves.
	And so that's why I wanted to get you on and talk about just the inserts.
	How did you get involved in all of this?
	What's your background?
	Well, like you and probably most people listening today, personal experience with pharmaceutical injury.
	I was active duty military and there were several times when I was serving that I had an adverse reaction, but it wasn't enough for me to dive too deep into finding the inserts.
	It was like, hmm, okay, I had a neck sprain and they gave me oxycontin and I ended up having severe constipation.
	That's odd.
	And it was just little things trickling here and there while I was serving that made me start questioning the products that I was blindly accepting.
	And then when I became a mother or when I became pregnant, I was starting to become more natural-minded.
	And I was in my third trimester and the midwife handed me a one-page sheet on the TDAP vaccine.
	And I remember thinking, this is very odd.
	I cannot have most medications.
	I can't have raw cheese or milk or any of these other things.
	And yet, an injection just didn't make sense for me.
	So I asked my mom to research it for me.
	And she researched it.
	And then when she came back to me a few days later, she had so much anxiety and urgency in her voice, almost as if I was standing on the edge of a cliff getting ready to jump off.
	And it actually really turned me off.
	She started sending me all of this information of saying I was going to die, my baby was going to die if I accept this product.
	So naturally, like any millennial, I went on Instagram and I started researching myself.
	And then I saw the other side, the other polarizing view that if I didn't accept this product, I was going to die and my baby was going to die.
	So I just felt that it was very polarizing.
	So because of who I am, I was trying to prove my mom wrong.
	And I wanted to just have what the government said about these products.
	I knew with my business background that every product on the market has to have some kind of legal documentation about the safety or effectiveness of that product.
	So I ended up finding the inserts.
	And as this was happening, in parallel to me researching vaccines, I ended up having my daughter.
	I declined the HEP B vaccine.
	I declined the eye ointment.
	But I had a 44-hour labor and it was very traumatic.
	So I ended up accepting the vitamin K, the synthetic vitamin K injection, because I was told it was just a vitamin K. It was just a vitamin.
	However, in hindsight, after reading the insert, there are other ingredients, including benzoyl alcohol, which now there's an added warning, boxed warning on the vitamin K insert that says it can cause gasping syndrome for infants and can be fatal.
	Of course, I didn't know this at the time.
	So my daughter ended up becoming injured from the synthetic vitamin K. And she had severe jaundice.
	She was colic.
	She had liver and gut issues.
	And I felt that the people that I had trusted, the people that I paid a lot of money to provide expert advice on, had not properly informed me of the potential known adverse reactions and risks that are on the FDA website, that are on manufacturer inserts.
	So I desperately was trying to find answers.
	I went to pediatrician after pediatrician, and every single time that I brought my daughter in, they were scolding me on not getting vaccines.
	And so here, my daughter had already been injured by a pharmaceutical product.
	Why would I introduce any more interventions, especially with what I had been researching on vaccine inserts?
	And so it just didn't make sense.
	And it made me dig my heels into the research.
	It made me start trying to find the answers.
	I don't have a medical background.
	So I was just going straight to the .gov resources because my thinking was if the government says this about these products, if the manufacturer says this about those products, then you can't really fight with that.
	That's pretty black and white.
	So I started sharing on my personal Instagram and I got shadow banned and censored.
	I lost a lot of friends in that process just by sharing .gov information.
	And that to me was even more of a red flag.
	Why am I being so ostracized just for asking questions?
	So I ended up praying, asking God.
	I remember distinctly, I was on my exercise bike and I had tears in my eyes because I had read story after story of injury, not just from vaccines, but from all pharmaceuticals.
	And I asked God for guidance and I said, send me, Lord.
	I'm here.
	I will go.
	And then over the next few weeks and months after that, I started getting inspiration to start an account for just the inserts.
	And that's how it started.
	I started originally on Instagram.
	It grew so fast, so quickly.
	I had over 148,000 Followers on Instagram in just a few short months.
	And then a week before the COVID vaccine was mandated by the Vitamin administration, I was deleted off of Instagram with no warning.
	After the fact, Meta told me in their blanket statement that the reason why I had been deleted was because of a.gov study that I had shared.
	So I was deleted off Instagram for sharing .gov information.
	But you know, it was a blessing because I was pregnant with my second child at that time.
	And I ended up realizing that I was spending nine hours a day posting and researching.
	And it really wasn't good for my own personal mental health and physical health.
	So I was off Instagram for about eight months.
	And then amazingly enough, for some reason, when Elon Musk bought Twitter, I was magically allowed to be back on Instagram that same day with the same username.
	All of my content had been wiped, but I was allowed to be back on.
	So I slowly started rebuilding.
	And during that eight month process, I had started focusing on my website, realizing despite what we're told, the internet isn't forever, and starting to create more solid foundations for my research, saving it on hard drives, things like that.
	I got back on Instagram, rebuilt, rebuilt my website.
	And then this year, after having my third child, I realized I needed to put all of this in a book.
	I needed to have a physical copy of all this research because it's so important for new parents, patients.
	Everyone needs to have informed consent.
	No matter your educational background, no matter where you come from, you need to know what manufacturers say about their own products.
	You need to know what the government says about their own products or products on the market that they have approved and are regulating.
	You need to understand all that.
	And it's really hard.
	They've made it really complicated to find this information.
	So my goal is not to replace research.
	It's to streamline research.
	So everything that I put out on Instagram, website, emails is all cited.
	You can go find it yourself.
	And I just took step-by-step instructions or created step-by-step instructions on how to find and read manufacturer inserts.
	And then in addition to that, most people were like, well, why do I need to read an insert?
	And just like Yestori, you said, the inserts are so scary.
	Why do I need to be reading them?
	And really the foundational element of all of this is informed consent.
	We deserve to have all of the information that the government and manufacturers know about this product at the very least to make well-considered decisions for ourselves, for our families, and for our communities.
	And that's really why I continue to go today is I started with my own story, but what continues me to talk and advocate for other people is other people's stories.
	Even before we hopped on today, I was getting messages from people saying, I was injured by this.
	I realize I was injured.
	How can I make more informed decisions in the future?
	And that's why I wrote the book.
	Yeah, we have to do our own research.
	I mean, the pharmacist isn't going to tell you.
	The doctor is not going to tell you.
	As a matter of fact, I remember you talking about COVID and when that came in and when the hammer really dropped on people.
	I've had that experience as well because I've pushed back against the vaccines and pharmaceutical in general, but specifically the vaccines.
	But I remember one person filming it, had the camera running in their pocket and they were giving out the COVID vaccine.
	She said, I'd like to see the insert for that.
	I said, well, I don't know where that is.
	Well, could you get the pharmacist and tell him to come here so I could see the insert?
	They got the pharmacist and he says, I can't find it.
	This is really strange.
	There's supposed to be an insert for this.
	And the reason why is because it was probably emergency youth authors that authorized.
	So I had pharmacists messaging me saying there's no insert or if there is an insert, it's a blank page.
	And so they did have insert-like information called a fact sheet.
	But even then, it was completely bare at the start of it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You know, when you look at this stuff, especially when you start to try to search, as you talked about in your story, somebody prescribes you something, and I've gotten very careful about that.
	And so subsequent to my son's injury, we got a prescription for, I don't even remember what it was for, but I'm looking it up and it was something that was kind of innocuous and everything.
	But you go to WebMD and they'll just give you a regurgitation of what the pharmaceutical industry wants.
	You've got to almost go to, and I'm glad to see that your site is up because what I would do, I would go to, look up the term and I would go to places where they're talking about it on Reddit or whatever so that I can see what individuals' experiences have been because the whole thing has been so covered up.
	It's absolutely amazing, isn't it?
	Yeah, there is a federally funded study that identified only 1% of vaccine adverse reactions and just a little bit more of that for all pharmaceuticals are reported in the passive surveillance system.
	And that's FAIRS for drugs, the FDA's adverse event reaction system, and then VARES for vaccines, the vaccine adverse event reaction system.
	And we probably all know we've heard about VARES because people were discrediting that after the COVID vaccines, almost as if it was just an office complaint box and that anybody could do a fraudulent report.
	However, if you go onto the VARES website, it has a disclaimer that you could be fined and put in jail if you put a fraudulent report.
	And the FDA and CDC, HHS, NIH, they all speak to the importance of a passive surveillance system.
	So for any medical provider that is discrediting it, they're discrediting their own system.
	And I would caution them doing that.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	So when you're dealing with your doctor, what kind of things should you say to your doctor in order to have a relationship with them, to question what it is that they're giving to you?
	Let's start with that, with the doctor-patient relationship.
	That's a great question.
	I love it.
	So when you go into a doctor, you are seeking a service.
	They are providing expert advice based on the observations or any diagnostic tests or physical exams that they do in an appointment.
	So the first thing that you want to make sure when you go to a doctor is that you understand the diagnosis.
	About 20% of diagnoses are Wrong in the United States.
	And so you just want to make sure, first up, right out of the gate, that you agree with the diagnosis and that you are sure that the observations that you've communicated to the doctor have been taken into consideration and that any observations that they may have for you or your child, you agree with.
	That's the first thing that you need to be aware of.
	And if you don't agree with that diagnosis, you have the right to say, okay, thank you for your expert advice, pay them for their time, and then go somewhere else and get a second opinion and a third opinion and a fourth opinion.
	There's no limit on how many opinions you can get.
	That is the right as an informed consumer that you have when seeking health care as a service.
	So if you do agree with that diagnosis, say you do find a doctor that you agree with, they're going to provide a recommended treatment plan that might include lifestyle changes, nutritional changes, or pharmaceuticals or other kinds of medical products, supplements.
	And each of those categories, you have the right to accept, delay, or decline those products in that treatment plan.
	So if you do accept a product, you are observant of any potential adverse reactions.
	You communicate any changes to condition to your medical provider.
	If you decide to delay that product, maybe you want to gather more information about your condition.
	Maybe you want to research other alternatives within that pharmaceutical class or supplemental class, or maybe you want to come up with a holistic treatment plan where you have some pharmaceuticals, some natural supplements, some lifestyle changes, maybe surgery, things like that.
	Or maybe you decide to decline that product and you can seek alternatives with that provider or find a new provider.
	So that's the basic process of informed consent.
	And all of it is in pursuit of having all the information that you need to make a well-considered decision about your health and your child's health.
	Yeah, from my personal experience, I had after a heart attack, I had a doctor who was prescribing some stuff to me.
	And I had some questions about it.
	I think it was statins that he was doing.
	And I had known about statins.
	And so I mentioned some of the things to him about statins.
	It said, I don't think I went to, oh, you've been talking to Dr. Google, have you?
	And it's like, well, I guess we don't need to talk anymore.
	Actually, I have a funny story about that.
	And it always makes me laugh when medical professionals say this because when I was military, I remember going to the doctor and telling them my symptoms.
	And they, I kid you not, swiveled around in their chair, got on their computer and got on Google in front of me, started searching my symptoms to try to find the diagnosis.
	And I remember that was such an aha moment because I remember thinking, why am I here?
	The only benefit that you're providing me is access to a pharmaceutical that I cannot get myself.
	And it started to break down that perception, that preconceived notion that I had that all doctors know everything that they're talking about.
	They don't all know everything.
	And I would also say that my community that I have, just the Inserts community, is predominantly medical professionals.
	Many nurses, many doctors, many pharmacists, many surgeons have reached out to me saying, I was never taught this in school.
	I was never taught how to read and find and interpret manufacturer inserts.
	The only time that medical professionals in their professional training that have been exposed to manufacturer inserts are because pharmaceutical employees or representatives have contacted them, presented parts of the inserts to compare advantages to a competitor.
	Yeah.
	And pharmaceutical representatives have confirmed that messaging me as well.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	And when you look at what the doctors are doing, in most cases, like they'll look on Google themselves for the symptoms, you stop and think about what they have become in terms of just a service that writes out prescriptions that you're not legally allowed to, things you're not legally allowed to get.
	Think how easy it's going to be to replace them with ChatGPT.
	It was about eight years ago that a study in South Korea said that by 2030, there was going to be massive unemployment.
	And one of the highest things that they had there was doctors, about 70% of them.
	And if you stop and think what it is, typically it's just looking up the symptoms and matching it to whatever big pharma wants you to buy for that particular drug right now.
	And so I think that's where this is all headed because they have basically made themselves largely irrelevant.
	I actually just, oh, I'm sorry.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I was just going to comment on that.
	I actually just read an article recently that said there were several hundred people, and I can't remember the institution that did the study.
	I'll have to find it and send it to you.
	But they took responses from ChatGPT on certain medical conditions and then responses created by medical professionals.
	And they asked these study participants, which response do you like better?
	And it was overwhelmingly positive towards ChatGPT.
	And it was interesting because they were saying medical professionals are less likely to be sought because people will go to ChatGPT instead, which actually can be quite alarming because ChatGPT isn't autonomous.
	There are parameters that the AI works within.
	So you do have to be careful of that.
	But I found that interesting.
	They will train it.
	And of course, they spend a lot of time putting biases into the training.
	And so you can imagine it's going to be a fight from the pharmaceutical companies to make sure that the bias is toward their particular drug.
	Because they do that.
	When they run the tests, you've got three pharmaceutical companies, they've all got their own drug for this particular condition.
	And you'll find that when pharmaceutical company A pays for the test and the study, that they will be found to be the best one.
	When the other companies do it, they will pay for the study to find that they are the best one.
	So it's going to be who gets to put the bias into the chat GPT.
	The other thing that's concerning about it, of course, is the fact that ChatGPT does hallucinate.
	And so it's kind of like going to a doctor who is micro-dosing on LSD or something at the same time.
	You never know what you're going to get.
	It's like a box of children.
	Exactly, exactly.
	Go to ChatGPT if you want, but also read the insert just to confirm everything.
	And it's interesting you brought up the information from pharmaceuticals because most of the time when I read inserts, I completely scroll past the clinical trial data.
	You can manipulate all of that data into however you want to.
	And you can see it when you start to get into the weeds of it.
	And I wouldn't recommend anyone first researching pharmaceutical products to go straight to that section because it is very overwhelming.
	I would recommend going to section 6.2, which is the post-marketing adverse reactions.
	According to the CDC, the definition of an adverse reaction is an undesirable medical condition caused by a vaccine or pharmaceutical.
	And that's why I would recommend going to section 6.2 because in 6.1, you can start to see where some of the, oh, well, these sections of the clinical trial data was exempt from the study because X, Y, and Z. And then you start questioning, well, why was it exempt?
	Because that obviously would have skewed the results.
	And so I would recommend people skipping that when they're first starting to research.
	Yeah, you know, and it changes so rapidly.
	You know, we look at the fluorochloroquins and they continually tweak the formulation so they can, first of all, renew the patent, but then so that they can also make sure that you don't tie it to these other things that now have a track record that looks pretty bad.
	So they're constantly adopting a new alias is the way that I look at it.
	So how do you keep current with all this stuff?
	Because they're constantly changing it.
	I don't, to be honest.
	I try my best, but there's no way.
	There's no way I can keep up with it.
	Even on X, I try to follow all of the CDC, FDA, HHS, all these things.
	And it's always changing.
	There are always things that are being added or changed.
	Or I mean, even the flu vaccines, those get updated every year.
	And I've been doing this for four years now.
	And I've had to update my influenza webpage four times because they change so often.
	And sometimes they have a quad, quad, you know, four, it covers four influenza strains.
	And sometimes it's three influenza strains.
	And now they're talking about the mRNA.
	And now they're talking about combining COVID and RSV and flu.
	And so it's, if you go into it thinking that I'm going to learn everything possibly, human possible, you will overwhelm yourself.
	You'll burn yourself out.
	So my advice is that if you are being recommended a medical product by your medical provider, ask them to write down the trade name of that product, confirm the spelling, and then go to the FDA website or you can go onto Google, go onto your preferred search engine, type out that trade name with FDA insert after that, and then you'll find the manufacturer insert.
	And I don't, if anybody's listening and they're frantically trying to jot this all down, I have a free training course on my website that goes step by step on how to do this.
	I also have it in my book, and it'll teach you that no matter what product comes to market, you could research it yourself.
	You can find the information that you need to.
	If the information is available, as we already discussed with EUAs, that information might not be available, which I would argue, why is that product being brought to market?
	But that's a whole different discussion.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, and today it is really imperative because we look at simple things, you know, just like antibiotics or whatever.
	And they're constantly changing them, changing the formulation and making them more concentrated and things like that.
	So, you know, this isn't your mom or your dad's antibiotic.
	This is something that is very different.
	And because of the rapid change in pharmaceuticals, you really do have to keep track of this.
	And you really need to take it seriously.
	These people always dismiss it by, you know, whenever something happens, oh, it's rare, right?
	That covers everything.
	It's like, well, evidently it's not so rare that it wasn't in the insert.
	And evidently, you know, even though it might not be a whole lot of people by your account, and we don't know because they don't necessarily bother to let us know.
	They'll list out a whole bunch of things.
	And that's the one thing that we need to not fall into, I think, is that mindset to tell ourselves, well, yeah, it says if I take this antibiotic, I could have a stroke.
	But I never heard of anybody having a stroke after an antibiotic, and yet it happened to my mother.
	And so they've got it there for a reason.
	And we need to be careful about that.
	What about the health care providers?
	I mean, talk to us.
	You said you've got a lot of health care providers who go to your website, justtheinserts.com.
	What is it that you tell them in terms of, and tell patients in terms of what the relationship should look like for informed consent?
	Well, I bravo to all medical providers who are going outside the traditional trading model of what they've been taught in school, what they are taught by professional private memberships such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, ACOG, all these other private entities that receive, they publicly acknowledge they receive funding from pharmaceutical industries.
	Bravo to the medical provider that is seeking their own information and taking it on themselves to go outside of that training model.
	I love hearing that.
	And there are more and more medical professionals doing that just from the four years that I've been talking about this.
	So my advice would be that when you are first going to medical school, most medical providers go because they want to help their patients, because they want to heal, because they want to see someone come into their office hurt and in pain and for them to leave to be better.
	And for them to understand that researching manufacturer inserts, researching potential non-pharmaceutical alternatives helps you do that.
	That pharmaceutical companies are not the arbiters of science.
	They are not the only ones that exercise science in pursuit of health and in pursuit of wellness.
	And I actually have an entire chapter of that in my book.
	And I cite from .gov resources, I cite from the NIH about chiropractic care, about Ayurvedic care, about traditional Chinese medicine.
	There are all these other models of health and healing that are accepted across the United States.
	And there was a study that was done, and this was about 10 years ago.
	And I believe it was 30% of Americans have had some kind of experience with unconventional healthcare is what they would call it.
	And so my advice to anyone researching is, yes, utilize the tools that are available to you, make informed decisions about them by reading the inserts, but also understand that there's not just those tools.
	There's a whole world of healthcare available to us.
	And I was actually able to attend the Senate Roundtable discussion with Senator Ron Johnson in D.C. in person.
	And Robert Kenneby Jr., he at the very, at the end of his closing comments, he spoke to the entrepreneurial spirit of Americans and how there are health care providers going outside of the insurance models, going outside of traditional health care to provide health to patients.
	They might not be as marketed as well as other professionals, or they might not even have websites, but they're out there.
	And to start for them to realize that they can take their business and not be so beholden to third-party entities or to insurance companies to accomplish their goal of helping people.
	Yeah, of course, part of the problem that we saw, especially through COVID, was anybody who bucked the system and there's this whole like union or guild or whatever it is, and they'll come back and because everything is licensed and tightly controlled like that, we saw so many people get purged out of the system who did want to offer people different alternatives.
	And of course, what the AMA has been pushing for a very long time after the Rockefellers is a paradigm of disease is something that's got to be killed.
	Well, unfortunately, sometimes the stuff that you use to kill the disease also kills you.
	Sometimes it kills parts of your body.
	Sometimes it's not just temporary.
	Sometimes it is permanent.
	And that's one of the things that's concerning about some of these antibiotics that are out there.
	It's that model, rather than building up your body and strengthening your immune system, doing things that are going to destroy your immune system or destroy other parts of your body.
	That's the key thing.
	And so it's a very, there are a lot of different paradigms out there.
	You're right.
	And it is very important for people to consider that.
	And I'm sure you've got some of that on your website as far as informed consent, different alternatives.
	Yes.
	And I also have reference resources available in my training course and in my book.
	Physicians for Informed Consent is another great resource.
	And they actually just did an article discussing how for the flu vaccine, those that accepted the flu vaccine, the effectiveness overall isn't very good for the flu vaccine.
	I believe it's around 40%.
	But there was a study that was done that those that had accepted the flu vaccine were actually at a higher risk of other respiratory illnesses.
	And so understanding many of the discussions that are done in a pediatrician's office, in a provider, primary care physician's office, the discussion is very siloed.
	It's very, okay, we're going to discuss flu and this is how, this is the product that you need to get for flu.
	But they're not realizing, what about the whole health?
	What about the whole body?
	Is this vaccine potentially going to cause issues elsewhere?
	Is it going to inhibit immune response when this patient is exposed to other viruses?
	Or maybe you're like you discussed, is it going to overtax their liver?
	And so they might not be able to detox the excipients in this product.
	Or is it going to kill their gut microbiome?
	There are so many other things that I believe the medical industry as a whole are not considering.
	They are just very siloed and they're very focused on just one topic.
	And one thing that I've noticed too reading inserts is that there are so many inserts that say that they lower the effectiveness of other products.
	The great example is typhoid vaccine and I discuss this in the book.
	I get asked all the time about people that are traveling internationally about international vaccines.
	And it says on the CDC website and on the manufacturer insert that the typhoid vaccine is limited.
	The effectiveness of it is limited when you take anti-malaria drugs.
	And so if you travel to a place like India, the CDC says, yes, take the typhoid vaccine, but also take your anti-malaria drugs.
	And then on the insert, it says the effectiveness of the typhoid vaccine is limited by taking anti-malaria drugs.
	And so just understanding that when you take a product, it could be limiting the effectiveness of another product or your body's immune response as a whole.
	Yeah, we're going to look at drug interactions.
	That's one of the things that I've started to look at.
	Somebody recommends something to me for a blood thinner, for example, since I have AFib.
	They want to put me on a blood thinner.
	And as I look at it, and I look at some products or I look at a particular blood thinner and the blood thinner says, don't take it with these other things.
	It's like, oh, okay.
	So then those other things would also thin my blood.
	Maybe they're not as dangerous.
	Or vice versa.
	You go to the natural supplement and it says, be careful if you're taking blood thinners because or whatever.
	It's going to lower your blood pressure.
	It's going to thin your blood some more, whatever.
	So I've basically used that to avoid some pharmaceuticals when I look at it.
	But part of this, you mentioned your story, your mother doing research and trying to warn you about it.
	And when we have friends or we have family and we know something and we see something that is alarming like that, we want to grab them by the lapel and say, don't do it.
	Like you talked about, you said it was like your mother was like you were standing on the edge of a cliff about to fall off.
	And that's the way we feel about it.
	And so we get very compassionate about it.
	What is the best way to approach other people that you have found?
	That's really hard.
	It's really complicated, especially when we have external forces, either a government mandating the product or we have the social and cultural external pushes of the marketing posts of saying, get this to protect your grandma or get this to protect community.
	It's very hard.
	And I think upfront we need to address that because it is a very delicate balance to strike.
	And I believe it really depends on your personal relationship with that person, understanding their personality, understanding what is going to resonate with them for them to start researching.
	I'm not the type of person to be told what to do.
	And so my mother should have known not to go through at that angle.
	But I understand.
	I understand now that I've done the research why she felt that way, especially because I was in my third trimester.
	I was getting ready to have that product at my next appointment.
	And so I do understand her sense of urgency.
	You used to never vaccinate pregnant women.
	And then they crossed that Rubicon.
	And then through COVID and everything, they were demanding that pregnant women get vaccinated with this and that.
	I mean, it really is amazing how this is all set up.
	And again, going back to the paradigm, it's kind of this sense that if we can kill whatever that thing is that we think ails you, the operation is successful.
	Maybe the patient dies, but we don't care as long as the operation is successful, rather than first do no harm.
	They have gotten so far away from that primary directive of first do no harm.
	It's just got to get rid of whatever that thing is, regardless of what happens to the person's health.
	And that's a thing that is very concerning.
	But again, I'm sorry, I interrupted.
	You were talking about how your mother was working with you.
	I mean, it is a difficult thing to try to, when we see how dangerous this is, to try to get it across to people, isn't it?
	It is.
	It is.
	And so my advice is to approach it in love, but in boldness, and to approach it in the sense of having all of the information cited.
	I actually have an entire chapter on this, and I do talk about it in my training course as well.
	That we have to first automatically assume that the person has good intentions for themselves and their families.
	I think when we go into it thinking nefarious, especially for friends and family, that can put you off on the wrong foot right out of the gate.
	And so to go into it, that they are just trying to do the best decision with the information they have and that you are tasked with the opportunity to provide more accurate information and to guide them in their path of research.
	And you're going to get much further in a place of love than in a place of hostility.
	And so I provide just different resources for people to do that and to be able to not be so aggressive.
	And some advice that I give too as well is that if you do go into a provider and you like this provider, but they're forcing you to accept a certain product to only bring .gov information.
	If you go into a medical provider's office with a .gov or a .com research resource like myself, like Justy Answers, like if you say, I got this from Justeanswers.com, they have been trained to discredit anything else that comes out of your mouth.
	So it's really important for you to go in with the .gov information, have the manufacturer inserts printed out, highlight the parts that you want to discuss with them, maybe even write the URL in the bottom of the webpage if it isn't there, for you to have productive conversations with them.
	Some family members are the same way.
	That's how I was.
	I have gotten hundreds of messages from people saying, thank you so much for putting this information out there because I was having circular conversations, debates, arguments with my loved one.
	And they just said, well, I want to hear only from .gov information.
	And they happened to find my account.
	And that's how they were able to have productive conversations.
	Some people also don't learn by reading.
	They are more visual or they're more auditory.
	So maybe you need to find a documentary.
	Maybe you need to find a podcast that might present the information in a different way.
	And that might be helpful for them to learn.
	One thing I did want to touch on when you were talking about pregnant women, another reason why I was deleted is because I had done a post about ACOG pushing the COVID vaccines onto pregnant women.
	And I was getting so many messages of pregnant women skipping prenatal appointments or having anxiety attacks about going to a prenatal appointment because their provider was pushing the COVID vaccine so hard.
	And I was pregnant at the time.
	So this just struck a nerve with me.
	I was on pregnancy apps sharing information because women were asking, should I get it?
	Should I not get it?
	I don't know.
	My intuition is telling me no, but I don't have much information.
	And so I was sharing .gov information and almost every single comment that I made was flagged and deleted by the app.
	And so it's hard.
	It's so hard because you want to get so mad and so angry.
	And believe me, I have every right to be mad and angry and aggressive.
	But that's when the Holy Spirit kind of takes over and reminds me that if you go in it too hard too fast, I have to remember that I have researched fact A to fact B to fact C all the way to fact Z. And if you go in with fact P or somewhere else, that might put someone in the defense and it might put them in an unhealthy way of responding to the information that you're presenting to them.
	So it is hard.
	It's very hard.
	And you really have to have, it's a little bit of an art trying to prevent the information to them.
	Well, I like what you had to say about .gov because, you know, one of the reasons I look at it is like, you know, why do we have these arguments and fights?
	Well, many of us will look at this and we've done research and we'll talk to somebody and they'll say, yeah, but this authority figure says this.
	And it's like, don't talk to me about authority figures to your own.
	That's also a logical fallacy.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But it's like, you know, I just have this knee-jerk reaction.
	It's like, why are you listening to these authorities?
	They lie about everything.
	And as you're pointing out, you know, we're at point Z because we've been seeing the authorities lying to us about everything, but they haven't noticed that.
	And so we jump into this conversation way down at a different place than where they are, number one.
	Number two, we get upset because they're so focused on authority figures.
	And I think your approach of saying, well, if we go with .gov information, we're fighting authority with authority.
	And I think that's a brilliant strategy.
	I think that's really great.
	And so, and it's also when we look at social media and the censorship that has been there, and I've experienced a great deal of it myself.
	When we look at that, we've got to get away from the social media walled garden that is there.
	And so people go to a particular website, they go to your website, or they go to mine or whatever, they go to a book.
	You know, that's the way to get outside of the system.
	We're all becoming trapped into focusing so much on social media.
	And it's only going to get a lot worse.
	I mean, we've got Facebook is out there talking about how they're going to create AI friends for you to talk to.
	And it's like, what kind of a crazy world is this?
	I mean, this is like the worst dystopian ideas of Yuval Harari out there talking about creating AI friends to talk to you because you don't have any real friends of your own.
	It's going to be this massive web of deception and of control and of surveillance.
	And so we need to start going to directly to websites.
	Yours is justtheonsearch.com, going to a book.
	What is the name of your book, by the way?
	We didn't talk about it.
	It's called Well Considered, a Handbook for Making Informed Medical Decisions.
	I made it very small on purpose.
	I have all the information you need, everything that I wish I would have known when I first started researching.
	And it's all sourced from .gov information.
	And one of the chapters that I have in here, I actually go into the potential financial conflicts of interest at the federal level and at the physician level.
	And I think that's important for patients and parents to understand as well, that when they walk into an office, they aren't just walking into a philanthropic environment where this provider is providing charity to you.
	It's a sales funnel.
	And having a business background, it's important to understand what you are walking into.
	So when you are, if your provider is becoming emotional about your personal medical decision, you could understand that there's a bias there and there's a potential financial conflict of interest.
	I get messages from people that are so worried about upsetting their providers and they don't realize that it's not them.
	It's not you.
	It's them.
	It's not something that you need to take personally.
	If your provider is getting upset, they are now entering a medical coercion, medical bullying, and that's not your fault.
	That's their fault.
	And you need to safely remove yourself from that relationship and find a better, more qualified provider.
	I agree.
	And a big part of this is that, you know, we have these campaigns by the media, or even if we get information from a health service provider, is to avoid the fear.
	Fear is a thing that allows them to do whatever they wish to us.
	If we get afraid enough of whatever this is, regardless of what we have seen happen to other people, regardless of what we've experienced in our own life, if they can build the fear of the condition, let's call it, the disease or whatever it is, if they can build that fear up, they can sell us anything.
	And people will continue to take it no matter even if you have bad, you know, adverse reactions to it.
	Keep taking it because you're so afraid of the disease.
	That's the key thing.
	Comparative safety.
	And it's one thing that I've noticed continually reading .gov information is almost all of these medical products are the safety and effectiveness of them are deemed in comparison to potential complications to a disease or an illness.
	And that's not right.
	We need to be assessing them based on their own safety, their own effectiveness, not comparing it to anything else.
	Because you can make anything seem safe if you compare it to something that is more dangerous.
	And I talk about in the book how dangerous that comparison is and how unscientific it is because of what we know from the government-funded study about adverse reactions, how only 1% of reactions are accurately reflected.
	And then also too, we haven't discussed that many vaccine manufacturers talk about shedding and the potential for shedding and how vaccine strains of a disease are out there.
	Polio, flu, chickenpox, shingles, there are vaccine strains that the CDC is tracking.
	So when we talk about disease rates, measles outbreaks, was it from the vaccine or was it from a wild strain?
	I think that's very important for consumers to be aware of as well.
	Oh, yeah.
	When we look at what is going on, for instance, in Gaza, they said, well, we tested the sewerage and we found this polio out there.
	Well, there's polio from the vaccine.
	We've seen situations.
	I remember when they freaked out, they had four patients who got measles.
	And, of course, I'm old enough.
	We didn't even have any measles, vaccines, and everybody got measles.
	Never heard of any serious reactions to anybody.
	Parents didn't, or they wouldn't have been having measle parties to make sure they get this over and done with.
	I had rubella as a baby.
	Yeah, there you go.
	And so, you know, we had all these childhood diseases, and it's easier to cope with them at childhood.
	And it was something that was, in fact, very rare.
	But, you know, you got, I remember a New York case where they had four measle cases, and everybody had been vaccinated at least twice, some of them more than that for that.
	So it very well could have been the vaccine itself that they were giving them.
	We never know about this type of thing.
	Talk to us a little bit about, as a parent, what you do for your children.
	Well, the first thing, if I'm worried about a disease because of the hype that is done either by public health campaigns or influencers or anything that are talking about a disease, RSV recently has been discussed a lot.
	And now the bird flu is, I've just on my personal Instagram, I saw three influencers start talking about the bird flu.
	And so if you are exposed to something like that as a parent, naturally you're going to worry about it.
	I think as a parent, that's normal and that's valid and that's okay.
	So for me, what I do is I research the disease.
	I understand what are the early symptoms of this disease.
	What is the transmission?
	How does it transmit?
	Is it from fecal matter?
	Is it from oral droplets?
	Is it from blood exposure, you know, exposure to somebody's blood?
	I want to understand how this disease or virus or condition or something, how does it spread?
	And then I want to know what are the potential complications of it.
	Once you understand the mechanism of action and how the disease presents in the body, then you can understand, okay, what are things that I can do to prevent this?
	If this disease is spread by somebody going to the bathroom, being exposed to fecal matto, not washing their hands like the poliovirus, then I'm going to make sure every single time I'm in a public restroom to wash my hands and not excessively touch everything in the bathroom.
	My children have been trained from the get-go not to touch any mucous membranes.
	They don't touch their mouth.
	They don't touch their nose.
	They don't touch their eyes.
	They don't touch their ears when they're in public.
	As soon as we get home, we wash our hands 20 seconds, cover everything.
	They know that.
	And that is a tool that can be used in disease prevention.
	I also make sure that their immune systems are constantly being supported.
	We ensure that the quality of food that we have is nourishing their body.
	I'm a firm believer that every product you put in and on your body can either help or hinder your health.
	And that includes food.
	And so we prioritize quality food.
	We prioritize sleep in our household.
	There are hundreds of thousands to millions of research and data on the quality of sleep that you have can determine your immune responses, your immune support, your support system.
	If we know that we are potentially going to be around someone that was recently vaccinated, we make sure that we have some tinctures that we take to support our liver, to support our detox systems, so that if there is a shedding event or one of the things that I discuss Are breakthrough infections, and this is heavily discussed by the CDC and FDA, especially for the COVID vaccines.
	They are tracking breakthrough infections.
	So, when somebody is up to date on their COVID vaccine, according to the CDC, they can still have COVID and transmit it to other people, but they don't have symptoms.
	It's asymptomatic.
	So, in my opinion, they're actually more dangerous because the symptoms aren't alerting them to stay home and they are exposing themselves to everybody else and there's no symptoms that could potentially keep them from spreading it to other people.
	So, knowing all of this, I could be in, as a parent, a state of fear constantly.
	And I will admit that there are times where I do fall into that camp of just being constantly afraid of everything coming after my child.
	But then that stress and fear itself will lower my immune response and also pass that stress on to my children.
	So, instead, I have adopted the strategy of what can we do to support our bodies.
	So no matter what we're exposed to, either in the sky or pollution or toxins in our environment, we are prepared and we are supporting our body as much as possible.
	I agree.
	And it all goes back to, you know, do we agree with their diagnosis?
	You know, when you look at the bird flu stuff, oh, look at how many people have gotten it and they got pink eye.
	And so you talk about, you know, not touching your eyes when you're out in public and everything.
	What about when you're working with bovine fecal matter?
	Because, you know, that is what we're seeing over and over again.
	People got pink eye.
	Well, how often do they get pink eye normally if they're not washing their hands?
	I usually just did a bird flu post last night because I was just so heated by these influencers saying, make sure you get your H5N1 vaccine.
	And like, that's not even commercially available yet.
	And they're already trying to push this.
	The only vaccines available are stockpiled by the CDC.
	But in the CDC guidance that I pulled, it said that the people that had been exposed to bird flu and had contracted the disease, they had prolonged exposure to dead birds or bovine fecal matter.
	Who knows what that could have been?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Who knows what they could have been sick with?
	And, you know, they get pink eye and they don't have any respiratory issues, no fever, any of that kind of stuff.
	It's like, don't call it bird flu.
	Maybe call it bird's eye, you know, or something like that.
	But yeah, there's a lot of heavy, heavy disinformation out there, and it's all about a campaign of fear.
	Leanna Wynn is out there pushing this bird flu vaccine, and it's got a very, very dangerous profile.
	So people need to be very, very concerned about it.
	I've got a couple of comments here.
	Dougalug says, after my heart surgery, I quit all the prescribed meds within four months.
	Doc says, I prescribed those for a reason.
	But he said no more.
	It's like, well, okay, we don't necessarily agree with your reason.
	And of course, we always look to see what the issues are with it.
	Guard Goldsmith says, I was going to ask if she took donations.
	So I look for a book, see about the training program.
	Those sound valuable.
	And if I can afford both, I'd love to study based on her program.
	And again, you can find that at informedconsent.com.
	Or just justtheanserts.com.
	I'm sorry, yeah, justinserts.com.
	And the training course is free.
	It's always going to be free on my website.
	No email required to access.
	Good, good.
	I was thinking about Gard again.
	He might be interested in talking to you as well on his program.
	He has Liberty Conspiracy.
	Jason Barker has another program.
	He says, the bottom line is that since naturally occurring molecules can't be patented, they produce synthetic, patentable drugs that try to do the same thing that many natural things can treat.
	And Handy, who is an ER professional in Atlantic, says, Atlanta says, even now, I work with people who don't have a clue that VARS even exists.
	They know playoff standings by heart, though.
	And that's a failure of education for our healthcare providers.
	Most of the time when the healthcare provider is researching a manufacturer insert is because they themselves are liable or they become parents.
	That is one of the top reasons that medical professionals have told me that they've read inserts, and that is a problem.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	That is amazing.
	Yeah, the stuff that's in there is in there for a reason.
	And if it looks scary, you should be afraid of that.
	They only want you afraid of the condition that you're looking at.
	And so that's an important thing.
	Just the inserts.
	And it is very important that when we have informed consent, it begins with information.
	You can find a lot of information at just the inserts.
	Thank you so much, Alexander, for joining us.
	Always great talking to you, talking to people who have looked at what is happening with all of this stuff.
	And I think it is very important for us to understand not only for ourselves, but how can we have meaningful conversations with other people and to meet them where they are.
	And as I said, I think your idea of fighting this authority figures with authority figures of .gov, I think that is one of the best ideas.
	And of course, people can find a lot of that information at justthean search.com.
	Thank you so much for joining us.
	Thank you for having me.
	Thank you.
	Hello, it's me, Volodymyr Zelensky.
	I'm so tired of wearing these same t-shirts everywhere for years.
	You'd think with all the billions I've skimmed off America, I could dress better.
	And I could, if only David Knight could send me one of his beautiful gray MacGuffin hoodies or a new black t-shirt with the MacGuffin logo in blue.
	But he told me to get lost.
	Maybe one of you American suckers can buy me some at the DavidKnightShow.com.
	And David is giving a 10% discount to listeners from now until 2025.
	At that price, you should be able to buy me several hundred.
	Those amazing sand-colored microphone hoodies are so beautiful.
	I'd wear something other than green military cosplay to my various galas and social events.
	If you want to save on shipping, just put it in the next package of bombs and missiles coming from the USA.
	The End Joining us now, we have a couple of guests, Doc Roberts and Jeff Weiss.
	And I know Jeff because I've been on with him and Trent Luce.
	And he lives here close by.
	And when I covered a couple of weeks ago, I covered a path away from addiction.
	It was a guy whose name was Stoner.
	That's the way he got started was with marijuana.
	And he and his wife got moved into harder and harder drugs.
	And it was a sad story about how they were trying to substitute methadone for heroin and all the rest of the stuff and all of the side issues that happen when you become dependent on methadone and other things like that.
	And Jeff called me and he said, you know, that's exactly what we do in our ministry.
	He's got a couple of ministries that he and Doc Roberts are doing.
	And as we talked, I said, yeah, you know, it really is.
	He's got a prison ministry as well as a ministry helping people with addiction, helping people to not just get rid of that in their life, but also to fill that void.
	But I said, you know, when we look at this, I told Karen, I said, this really is about people who are, maybe some of them realize that they are locked in a physical prison.
	Some people are locked into a spiritual prison.
	And some people are imprisoned and they don't know it.
	And so I wanted to get them on and talk a little bit about the program that they got.
	So joining us now is Doc Roberts and Jeff Weiss.
	Thank you for joining us, gentlemen.
	Our pleasure.
	It's wonderful to be here, David.
	And, you know, as an avid fan of yours and getting a lot of my news and stuff from you, it's just a pleasure to be on with you.
	And I certainly appreciate you giving us this time.
	And it's funny you mentioned our journey and how we've came to where we're at because our ministry is actually called Free Indeed.
	And it's based on the fact that Jesus explained his statement in John 8, 32, of very truly I tell you the truth, the truth will set you free, right?
	And you would have thought that pretty much would have cleared the air, but there was pushback, right?
	They're like, wait a minute, who are you talking about?
	It's unfree.
	We've never been anything but free.
	And that's when he reminded them that you can replace anything bad in your life with something good.
	You can do whatever housekeeping you want.
	But if I, the sun, doesn't set you free, you will never be free indeed.
	And I couldn't, I couldn't, you led me in so good to give you one particular story of what I use all the time.
	And that is freedom has nothing to do with your location and where you're at.
	I know a man, and my life has changed so much over the years and came into understanding I'm a spirit with a soul and a body and that my spirit's eternal.
	And so I've met some of these men who, quote, by our cultural standards have done some crazy, horrible, horrific things.
	But in the same breath, I've watched the power of Jesus Christ and the freedom that he can provide and the chains and the shackles that he can remove.
	And so giving you that example, we go and serve at the state prison here quite often to where we've taught our book in there before.
	It's being taught now.
	But I was going quite a bit and had a friend there.
	And he had committed multiple murders, was never getting out.
	But I'm telling you what, you could see the joy of Christ in this man.
	He was a light to where he was.
	And when you met him and talked to this man, you would understand that there is nobody that's any more free than this man who will never see what we would consider freedom.
	Yeah, that's amazing.
	Yeah, that's one of the things, you know, people on the outside don't realize that they need him.
	And that's what Jesus would say so many times to the people.
	He says that those of you who are well don't need a physician.
	But the people that you mentioned, and you've said this to me, that you come across in prison, they're desperate for this type of thing.
	And they're serious about it, unlike many of us on the outside.
	We are so distracted and we're living in this wonderful bubble that we live in.
	And we feel like everything's just fine.
	And we don't need Jesus, right?
	Yeah, the other side of that, David, is, so then I go to guest speak at a large church two weeks later.
	And I visit and talk and meet people who are so shackled and imprisoned and have no idea they are.
	They are not imprisoned, right?
	Physically, but spiritually, they are living an existence that is absolutely nowhere close to the abundance of life that we have been created to have.
	And that's what Doc teaches and we teach in our book, that there was a blueprint to how to live this life.
	And so we call it the Jesus filter.
	So once you start going outside of that, that's when a disaster ensues.
	That's right.
	Yeah, I wanted to get you guys on, especially this time of year, because we've got the New Year's coming up.
	A lot of people are examining their life, thinking about things that they would like to change that they don't like about their life.
	And you don't have to be addicted to drugs or to alcohol or have some other major addiction to sex or anything like that.
	But there is really a freedom that I think a lot of us are missing.
	And you've got a book.
	It's called Your Ministry is Free Indeed.
	You've got a book about that.
	Your current website, I think, is thewordsays.net.
	Is that correct?
	And you've got another one that is coming up that's going to incorporate Free Indeed.
	Is that right?
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah.
	And what is that website going to be in case people see this and repeat?
	Oh, it's so wonderful, David.
	It just rolls off the tongue.
	I'mfreeindeed.com.
	There you go.
	Okay, that's great.
	Which ultimately, when you look at the scripture in John, and I want Doc to go in and speak to all of this, but that is the purpose in this life and how we make a difference is we become free through Jesus Christ.
	We begin to live in Christ and we learn that the total secret is to be able to love somebody else more than we love ourselves.
	How cool is that?
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That sounds like what Jesus said, doesn't it?
	Tell us a little bit about your background, Doc.
	Yep, I'd be happy to.
	Thank you.
	Well, I was oldest and five, and I first experienced alcoholism when I was 15.
	And I had an aunt who passed away, and it just broke my heart, and I couldn't understand it because she was the only one that followed Jesus Christ in my family.
	Never went to church, and it was devastating to me.
	And probably, David, for the next 40 years, I probably didn't have a day go by where I didn't have some kind of artificial substance in my body that altered the way I thought and how I felt.
	And about 16 years ago, I met Jesus in my garage.
	I was a broken man.
	I was a broken soul.
	And I've been searching to that void you talked about.
	And that's the thing we have to first understand there is a void.
	And I don't understand what that void is now.
	But I came out of that meeting with Jesus a completely different person.
	The desire for me was taken away because I wanted it to be taken away.
	I knew there was more to life than what I was living.
	And I'll have to say, I've never met a person that hasn't thought there's more to life than what I'm living, that had the questions of, why am I here?
	What's the purpose of all this?
	Surely I wasn't just born to be spanked on the butt to start crying to when I'm laying in a coffin, they're throwing dirt on top of it.
	There has to be purpose to life.
	And, you know, I discovered that purpose because God designed it only one way, and that is through Jesus Christ.
	And while it was on my mind and we were talking about being stuck and being in prison, not only the jails, but in our own mind, I find today what so many people are addicted to is anxiety.
	Yeah, that's right.
	They're addicted to it to the point where they call it their own.
	Yeah, amazing how we saw that in the last four years.
	You know, the fear that people have, the anxiety, and, you know, they did all kinds of, that's why I think we see this continuing thing about the face mask and the rest of this stuff.
	They hang on to that.
	It's like a security blanket for them.
	It's a security blanket.
	They think that's who they are.
	They identify themselves with.
	And I'll just say, well, listen, why do you call it my anxiety?
	You're grabbing ownership of it.
	And as long as you want ownership of it, you're going to have it and you'll never be relieved of it.
	And so what they do is they go to counseling and they get pills to try to help gall these anxious feelings.
	And so what they're doing is they're playing right into the trap of what it causes.
	And scripture really says, you know, in Philippians 4, 4 through 6, be anxious of nothing, but in everything, in everything.
	That's right.
	Give requests to God.
	And verbatim to the rest, but I will tell you how it is.
	And you will find peace that is in Christ Jesus.
	And we all want peace.
	That's right.
	You know, when I was talking about it, one of the things that I thought was really amazing about that article, when they tried all the different psychological things, they tried other substitutionary drugs and everything.
	And then they talked about other types of programs, you know, like Alcoholics Anonymous, where they have a kind of a generic higher power or something like that.
	And then people who went to a Christian counseling and Christian help and that type of thing.
	And it was amazing how much more effective the Christian counseling was than anything else.
	It was more effective for them to go to Alcoholics Anonymous or something with a higher power than it was for the substitutionary drugs.
	But the thing that really was very powerful was the Christian counseling.
	And it was kind of interesting because Anthony Hopkins, the actor, has talked about this several times.
	And he talked about how he struggled with alcoholism for many decades.
	And he would push back against even the Alcoholics Anonymous.
	Finally, somebody said, well, why don't you just give it a try?
	And he said, when he did, it actually changed his life.
	And that's, I guess, what you're talking about as well.
	That's what Jesus does.
	He changes his lives.
	You know, I've been through Celebrate Recovery.
	I've been at NA Recovery years ago.
	And now that I have this relationship with Jesus, I've come to realize that we even hold ourselves short by even using the word recovery.
	Yeah, that's right.
	When we recover, we're going back to the place we were before we started.
	And that wasn't a good place for me to begin with.
	So what we talk about is transformation, being changed, where now you don't have to no longer be identified by that, but now you're starting to be identified by your life in Christ and in God, because guess what?
	That's who our real identity is in anyway.
	And it was taken from us.
	We gave it away in the garden.
	And ever since then, mankind has been trying to find their identity in the world.
	And guess what?
	It's not there.
	And that's why we struggle so much in this world because we're trying to get these spiritual needs of love and worth and value and security in our being from the world.
	And God set it up that it can only come through him, through Jesus.
	And once we realize that and we step into that, and we step into that, then we're starting to understand that void you mentioned earlier, it's starting to be filled with what it was designed to be filled with.
	Yes.
	Yeah, and that's what Jesus said when he began his ministry.
	I've come to free the captives.
	And so I think it really is interesting that, and of course, Jeff, I know that you also work with people, Christians in Pakistan, who are under tremendous persecution there.
	We talk about that coming up here.
	But the other two things, you've got so many different irons in the fire here.
	The other two things, the people who are in prison and the people who are spiritually in prison, addicted, and that type of thing.
	Just talk a little bit about what you tell people with your program, what you do in terms of going through the Free Indeed book.
	Well, the first thing, and you just said it, that he came to set the captives free.
	The problem is most of us, because we don't have what we would consider a biblical worldview, right?
	We don't understand that we are captives.
	So therein lies your number one challenge is having people understand that there is more out there.
	You know, I've heard, you know, one of the sayings when I was growing up was, well, life's hell and then you die.
	You know, we hear some of the old songs, the old rugged cross.
	They're brutal.
	But when you look at their history, those were slaves trying to get through the day, trying to just make it till they actually died.
	Where what we feel like is that God came and through his son, we were to have life and have it abundantly as we live here, right?
	That it is for you.
	But the scripture that comes to mind right now is the one where it says, woe to the man who sees himself in the mirror and as he walks away, immediately forgets what he looked like.
	That's right.
	That's who we are because of all the creature comforts.
	Now, I don't want to discount the drug addiction and what it has, but what we're saying is that if your identity is that I'm a child of God, they call me Jeff so that they don't get me mixed up with everybody else.
	Yes, I do real estate.
	Yes, I'm pastor of a church and I do all these things.
	He is here.
	But that's not who he is.
	I am a child of God.
	We use over and over the palm tree to where during a hurricane, the palm tree might literally be bending over 90 degrees.
	But the next morning, after it's gone, where is that palm tree?
	Standing straight back up.
	And that is to be our identity, that the storms of life, not when they come, they will.
	And so what we deal with and talk a lot about is spiritual warfare.
	We believe in the full armor of God.
	And if you're going to pick up these pieces and put them on, you're going to have to admit that there is something going on that I need to defend.
	And I think that is why our prison, the jail ministries, the recovery ministries, the Pakistan, 98% Muslim, but we're growing.
	We've got several thousand now following us in free indeed there.
	They're being asked to go preach and teach free indeed at other Christian churches there.
	And it's because once you get that identity that you have an eternal mindset, which is the biblical mindset, the woes and the arrows of this world that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 6 through the armor of God that will come, they don't have any kind of effect on you because you're eternal.
	Where in America particularly, we tend to judge everything by our last job, our last relationship that's broken, our last critical time, a pet that's sick or whatever it is.
	You know, we tend to not be the palm tree.
	We tend to be identified by that storm.
	Yes, that's right.
	Where one of Doc's favorite teachings that he does so well is Jesus in the boat.
	He said, we're going to the other side.
	Right?
	What you do.
	That's right.
	Yeah, that's the thing is that if people don't realize, you know, if their standard, and so many Christians, their standard is just their circumstances of what is happening right now.
	And as long as everything's going on fine, that's fine.
	But, you know, if we got some kind of a storm, then maybe I'll turn to Christ and maybe something will happen there.
	But there is a positive relationship that is there, even when things, the circumstances are good, and that positive relationship is going to carry you through the bad times.
	And so you need to lean into that, grow into that, so that you're ready for those bad times as well.
	And I think that's the key thing.
	So many people, there might be people listening who are struggling because they're addicted or, you know, something is controlling their life.
	And it doesn't have to be drugs.
	You know, it could be a lot of different things.
	It could be sex.
	It could be your love of money.
	It could be bitterness.
	It could be so many different things that are controlling your life.
	But those are the most obvious ones when we talk about drug addiction and alcohol addiction.
	But the key thing is to take an inventory of your life.
	I think this is a good time of year to start that and to see if there isn't something better, something higher, something deeper that people can find.
	And there always is, especially deeper when you consider Jesus.
	Scripture says, I am in Christ and he is in me.
	And if I may, the first chapter in our book, David, is there is a God and it's not you.
	That's right.
	You know, and what we don't realize is that because of our sinful nature and the fall of mankind, we became our own individual gods.
	And we can just call that individual God ourselves pride.
	And what we end up finding is the God of me pride is always in war with the pride of God of somebody else.
	And then what do you have?
	You have chaos, you have turmoil, you have rage, you have destruction.
	And if all the ways that humanity could have been created, that we could exist, why are we always at odds with each other?
	Why are we in a state where there's always sabotaging relationships and we're hurting each other and we envy and we murder and we why are we that way?
	Because we could have been created any anyway.
	And you look in Genesis, I urge everybody, meditate and study on the three first three chapters of Genesis and you'll see why humanity is in the plight that we are.
	And then as you move on, you now can see what the answer is to take us out of that plight because there's spiritual issues.
	And one of the things that we're naive about, I used to be naive about, is that there is a spiritual realm that is over, if I may say, or rules over the physical realm.
	And, you know, it's almost like earth is a border between heaven and hell and the wars at this border called earth.
	Yeah, that's a good analogy.
	Yeah, and we would go back to Genesis, you know, as you point out, everybody thinks that their God, wants to be God.
	And so you've got all these different gods fighting each other.
	And I think from a political standpoint, because I cover politics so much, we can see that in the governments of the world.
	All these governments, all these leaders think that they're God, they aspire to be God.
	And so they want to, first of all, most places like that.
	They attack Christianity internally, but then that's why they attack other countries because there can only be one.
	I mean, it is this mania to rule everything, and it all does come from pride.
	And that's one of the key things.
	You know, we always look at the sins that we commit against each other, whether it is murder or adultery, like in the life of David.
	And yet, the thing that David was really punished for was pride, and it had a lot of consequences for the people who were under him.
	And that was something that we actually almost hold pride up as a virtue in our society, don't we?
	Yes, we do.
	Yes, we do.
	And if you, you know, looking in Ezekiel and Isaiah, when it talks about the Lord casting Satan out of heaven, it was pride that got.
	And so the Lord and pride, they don't mix.
	Yes, that's right.
	They don't mix.
	But that's the thing about it is if we can see that and how we were not created to be that way, that we were created in the righteousness of God.
	And that's how it was designed.
	But because of the fall, it just twisted everything around.
	And when I first started really studying Genesis and spiritual warfare, I got this thought of what would an alien say if it just happened to look and study humanity for a while, what one word would it come away with?
	And the word that kept coming to my mind was chaos.
	Just chaos.
	And it's sad.
	That's what they're over.
	And we see that in the newscast.
	And I don't even like watching the news because of all that because I'm just so focused on getting people to understand the spiritual war that's not only going on into the world, but going on in your families and normally that going on inside of you.
	Amen.
	That's right.
	Well, you know, when you look at Genesis, it's a chaos form without void at the beginning.
	And what happens?
	The Holy Spirit hovers over that and brings order out of that chaos.
	And that's what can happen in our life.
	If we submit, if we look for God, that is the benefit that comes from that, that new creation.
	Yes, sir.
	And Dave, one of the things that we've focused on is an understanding is how in the Bible, we've got all the tribes, right?
	And how everyone was at war against each other.
	And we tend to look back at the Old Testament as something that doesn't repeat itself.
	Man, I'm telling you what, we are in a culture where if you use Apple products, you cannot just not use the other products.
	You have to dislike the other people.
	You know, we're in a culture where sports, you know, you can't, if you're a Dallas Cowboy fan, well, you have to hate the Philadelphia Eagles or the Washington, whatever they're called, right?
	So we, but that is, I think they're going back maybe.
	I don't know.
	But the point is that this is how the enemy works because he knows if we all understood our identity at one time, that this thing would be over with, that the enemy would not be able to flourish.
	And so what we tend to wind up talking a whole lot is about this, that when you take your identity and so politics that, you know, I follow it a lot because I'm a listener of your program and love it dearly.
	But that's what, when I see that people take identity.
	Yes.
	They take the identity as a political party, right?
	Or they take identity as a doctor or a lawyer or whatever these things are.
	And I would encourage all of us to begin to refer to each other as a child of God who's experiencing a period of being a doctor, right?
	That's right.
	A child of God who's experiencing anxiety.
	Don't help people say, oh, you've got anxiety.
	No, you don't.
	You're a child of God.
	And we go through the book of James.
	We've been talking about some.
	What a great book it is.
	But it teaches us once you're aware of who you are, number one, I'm a child of God with a spirit and with a soul living in a temporary body.
	And then I understand that I am in a war, that this is a spiritual war.
	I need to put my full armor of God on.
	We begin to have this discernment and recognize the attacks as they come.
	And then when they do, we'll go right to the anecdote, which is always in the word.
	And in James chapter 4, verses 7 and 8, he tells us, hey, when it comes, just submit to God.
	The devil will flee, right?
	That's right.
	So we're willing.
	We have to be seeking this as a thing.
	And most of us are so comfortable because of what I've talked to you about.
	I feel like we have just come through at least one full generation of what I like to call the abdication generation.
	We abdicate everything, including the knowledge of something, to someone else.
	And we just believe the little cliff notes or the little crawl at the bottom of the screen is all we need to know.
	Let somebody else do the heavy lifting.
	Well, it's not working out well.
	That's right.
	In any part of our society.
	That's right.
	And that kind of dependency has been inculcated in people, I think, going back to school.
	You just tell me what to do, and I'll do it.
	You just kind of passively sit there thinking that education is going to be them filling up your empty bucket.
	And that kind of passivity just permeates the society anymore.
	I've seen so many people who we talk about people being imprisoned in different ways.
	I've known people who were miserable in their profession, but because they had gone to college and they had a degree in teaching or they had a degree as an engineer or whatever, well, I can't do anything else.
	I have to do this.
	And in a sense, that is the kind of we can construct prisons around ourselves of all kinds of things.
	Just like the heart is an idol factory, it is also a factory of prison bars that we can imprison ourselves in all kinds of things, isn't it?
	A lot of times our prison bars are shame, guilt, fear, vengeance.
	Those are the things that keep us in our own cell, a prison of our self-made prison.
	You know, wants us to stay right behind there.
	And parents out there, what we find in what we do, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases and years down the road, is when you meet someone and they either are a child of God experiencing, whether it be alcohol addiction or drug addiction Or whatever, the very first question that we always ask and want to know is: tell me about your childhood and your parents.
	And what would be the percentage you would say of the ones that don't even know who their father is?
	It's way up.
	It's high.
	It's high.
	Most of them don't.
	Most.
	I'm talking three-quarters.
	Well, their father wasn't involved in probably more than that.
	The father wasn't involved in their lives at all.
	Of course, God set that up for the father to be the spiritual leader.
	So if the evil one can get to the father, I mean, he's got the whole family, basically, you know.
	That's right.
	And that's sad.
	And that's just how he does it.
	Well, that really has characterized the biggest change, I think, in my life, see how the family has just been torn apart.
	It used to be a really big deal, you know, if you had a movie star that got divorced and got remarried.
	Now nobody would even think twice about that.
	They had to hide it from everybody because it was going to be box office poison for them.
	That was not accepted as something that was healthy.
	People realized how that was going to influence them and their children to these types of things.
	And now it has just permeated our society.
	We've accepted it and it's become so destructive.
	If I may say, people struggle in this life, and it's a cliche, but they're searching for love in all the wrong places.
	I believe, you know, the fall didn't catch God by surprise.
	And in his wisdom, you know, I'll just say there's a spiritual DNA need in us that we need to be loved spiritually.
	We need love.
	We need to express love.
	We need to receive love.
	And also, we need to know that we are worthy, that we have value.
	There's a lot of people out there that feel, I was a case at one time too.
	I just didn't think I was even worthy, even begin to be able to fall at the Lord's knees or my knees.
	And then there's a sense of security that we need to know.
	We need to know that we're safe.
	And these are spiritual needs that only can be satisfied through Jesus, because he is the way, the truth, and the life.
	No one comes to the Father except through me.
	And until we understand that, and because they are spiritual and the spiritual is deeper or higher than the physical, we know they're there, but we try to get them satisfied in the world.
	And the world can't give you what it doesn't have.
	And that can only come from Jesus.
	So when we start realizing that and we start receiving from him, because he's already given it to us all on the cross, we start receiving from him, then we all of a sudden understand that's what we've been searching for all these years.
	And there's joy in that and there's peace in that and there's patience in that.
	And now all of a sudden, you're starting to see how you're now loving other people that before were very unlovable to you.
	You know, you start having more patience with people that earlier you would just fire back at them.
	That's right.
	And it just starts changing you from the inside out because now you got the Holy Spirit living in you and you're moving that pride away where you're letting him work on you instead of you work on everybody else.
	That's right.
	Tell us a little bit about, you said you met Jesus in the garage or what tell us a little bit about that.
	Had you prayed to him?
	Were you looking for him?
	Well, people always kind of say, you know, I don't, I used to say I found Jesus in my garage, but he found me.
	He wasn't lost.
	That's right.
	And for years, I was addicted to pornography.
	I was molested by an uncle when I was young.
	And I really, as I look back on it, I got really confused about this love and lust connection because he was my father figure because I didn't have my natural father, biological father in my life and two or three stepdads.
	But during that time in my life, and I was in my mid-50s, I was mainly just a struggle with alcoholism.
	And man, I got some good stories about how the Lord worked on that on me.
	But I just got to the point, I was in my garage, and actually, actually, David, I was looking for an article.
	I like to write.
	I was looking for an article I had written probably 12 years earlier in my garage.
	And it is basically quickly, it was basically, I wrote a dialogue story about a man talking to buying drugs from a man that he thought was a dealer, but it was actually in the story Jesus in disguise.
	And in that, Jesus asked me, he says, well, why do you get high?
	And my response in the dialogue story was, because when I'm high, I'm free.
	And the response was, was, have you ever considered being high because you were free?
	And for some reason, at that moment, it hit me in such a way.
	And I wrote that 12 years ago.
	So it's been over 30 years since I've written that.
	It hit me in such a way, I started crying and I started crying out to him.
	And for the first time, I'll have to say, I had this experience of being held by a father I never had.
	And it reminded me who my really father was.
	And the desire for the drugs, the pornography just seemed to melt away from me.
	And I knew this was what I'd been searching for for my life.
	And first thing I did was went up, and my wife was experiencing alcoholism at the time.
	Told her what had happened to me.
	And I went in and deleted my porn site.
	And I haven't been the same person since.
	And I mean, if I had any regret and I don't, this, you just move forward.
	I wish it would have happened much younger in my life.
	But who knows?
	The Lord may keep me in this body for another 30, 40 years.
	That's right.
	Because as long as I'm here.
	You know, I'm going to be an advocate for Jesus Christ because I know that's what everybody needs.
	I know that's what they're searching for out there.
	And because they're searching for love, they're searching for value, purpose, and everything in this world will fail you in that.
	And those are even Solomon's words.
	Well, that's in terms of the timing, it's always in God's timing.
	And all of that bad stuff that happened to you, that was all preparation for your ministry, wasn't it?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	Thank you so much.
	And I know that now, right?
	I know that now.
	And it's amazing what revelations he gives you at this and how some of those things that you used to believe about yourself just melt away because you understand that's not who you are.
	And but then again, you know, I was just spiritual milk at the time and I had a lot of, I'm still got growing to do.
	You know, there's a saying I love that, you know, when you're ripe, you're rot.
	When you're green, you grow.
	And I want to stay green in Jesus.
	Yeah, that's great.
	I want to stay green in Jesus.
	But I think one of your best things in the book, you got that, or do I have my book here?
	One of our quotes that we dearly love, David, and I'll share with you real quick here, is from C.S. Lewis.
	And I know, there it is.
	I highlighted it blue because I love this so much.
	And to be honest, it was a little deep for me.
	Part of this is I'm accomplished because I understand what this means.
	And this is something I just love.
	I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
	That's a great quote.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so that for us is what the light of Christ represents, you know, and when we've seen what he can do, we also find that, you know, we have fallen asleep to the miracles.
	As we have been presenting some Christmas messages lately, you know, we just got stuck on this whole, you know, okay, there was a virgin birth and wait, what?
	You know, you get caught in realizing the miracles that got us to where we're at and talking about the people that were witnessing that in anticipation of the birth of Christ, right?
	And here we are 2,000 some years later with all of the miracles, but they're so mundane now because we don't even consider that.
	And one thing that Doc had talked about and the thing that we deal with a lot is that people don't have a sense of self-worth.
	Well, when you're aborting almost a million babies a year, is it any wonder that since 1973, the value of a life has been discounted when you see gang members on TV that are arrested for murder and they're happy because in their mind, in their culture, they have actually made it to the big time?
	And then you look at how this spreads out to everything else.
	It spreads out to euthanasia.
	It spreads out to physicians letting people die.
	And we don't have any respect for life at any level.
	We didn't have any respect.
	What about fatherhood?
	What does it say about the role of fatherhood as well when life isn't worth anything, right?
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, we held life pretty cheap, I think, in 2020, one of the things that they were doing to people and still holding it cheap.
	There's no penalty for any of that stuff.
	But when you're talking about this, and I want to talk a little bit about Pakistan because I'm curious, how did you get involved in that?
	And how do you find people in Pakistan and that kind of repressive thing?
	It's one of the worst places on earth to be a Christian in terms of persecution.
	And how do you find these people?
	How did this all work out?
	How did you get involved in that?
	You know, my unique, I speak fluent Urdu.
	Do you?
	No.
	That wasn't it.
	This is where he asked for forgiveness?
	Yeah, okay.
	No, that was just crazy, David, how it all started.
	Now, we're coming up on a two-year anniversary of Free Indeed Pakistan.
	But about four years ago, maybe even more than that, you know, on Facebook, you begin to get these around the world.
	Hello, how are you?
	You know, or maybe even not that grammatically correct, you know, like whatever, whatever.
	So this man, I thought, was doing this, you know, well, can I pray for you?
	Can I pray for you?
	And so we went through several things.
	And so I'd throw it out there.
	Okay, okay, okay.
	But what struck me is we'd go a year, year and a half, almost two years into this relationship.
	And this person from Pakistan had never asked for anything from me except for prayer.
	And so one day, you know, tell me what you need.
	Well, anyway, long story short, turned out that Samarine, who I was conversing with, is a woman who is now part of our family that we all dearly love.
	And she speaks English.
	And she was raised.
	We have actually via the internet.
	We've never been there, but in the internet, we've been out to the so-called village where she was raised, which is basically a little side of a mountain, like kind of a cave that her mother still lives in.
	And her father was a Christian way back then, and he wanted her to have an education.
	Because as a Christian believer, you can't get any kind of a job at all unless you convert, right?
	So anyway, she started in her, she showed me her little bedroom with a little hole in the side of it for whatever, and then this little cot.
	And she would move her cot during the day and started off with four or five children that she began to teach at 16 years old.
	And so now we're up to, I don't know how many schools, but between 800 and 1,000 students now.
	And she's administrator over six or seven of these schools, which might sound fancy, but they live in complete poverty.
	So we've been able to come in.
	I was able to ship books to her.
	And so now we teach free indeed.
	We actually have an annual retreat now that we've had two Bible camps where we do a solid, very hard, long week that we're there in Bible camp and we teach identity in Christ and the freedom from this.
	I am a child of God.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, the freedom that that gives somebody, right?
	We've even, forgiveness is a big part of what we talk about in our book, not because the other person deserves it, but because that's what hinders the Holy Spirit from really doing its work through you because of what unforgiveness does.
	Now, imagine living in a country where 98% of the people hate you.
	So the whole forgiveness ceremonies we've done have been so powerful.
	They didn't weren't even aware because it seems natural to hate the enemy.
	But they have been freed of so much of this.
	And it's allowed.
	I mean, it's just flourishing, David.
	You wouldn't, I'll get, you know, I can get her on anytime.
	She loves doing this.
	She's on shows.
	She's been on with us with Trent before.
	She's so cool because the things that there was one example, one night I called her because we were preparing for an upcoming meeting.
	And I'm like, Samrin, it's dark in there.
	Why aren't you?
	Where is she?
	She said, no, we have no electricity.
	I said, oh, the power's off.
	No, we did not have enough money this month to pay our bills.
	Like, you know what?
	Let me know.
	We'll help you out.
	She said, no, you don't understand.
	We found 15 families with no food.
	Like, why would we be so arrogant as to have power when we found these 15 families back here that didn't have anything to eat?
	We went and fed them.
	We'll get power next month.
	What a difference to that and the American church.
	Woo, here we go.
	Multi-million dollar building.
	You know, I was just talking about what was happening in Silicon Valley and said, oh, this is really great.
	Look, Christianity's on the move there.
	We've got Peter Thiel is coming.
	And, you know, we've got this $12 million building that we put up here and everything.
	It's like, I don't recognize any of that.
	It's what she's doing that's the real thing.
	Truly is.
	That's amazing.
	And of course, there in Pakistan, as you point out, it's not just the fact that they will, you won't be able to get a job.
	And of course, who knows?
	We might wind up with something like that pretty soon as well, because I constantly cover people who are being dictated to violate their conscience and their religious beliefs.
	And if they don't, they are purged.
	They're purged off of social media.
	They're purged out of their job and so forth.
	So that type of intolerance is working its way here as well.
	But it's even worse than that because have they had any people in the group that you work with that have been harmed?
	Oh, gosh, yeah.
	We had about a year and a half ago, there was we okay, so we had this issue.
	The roads are terrible, potholes everywhere.
	And the way these pastors and the people that are working in our ministry travel was by these motorcycles.
	And so by the time they're 35, 38, 40 max, their backs are gone from bouncing up and down these roads.
	So anyway, we were blessed and able to get them a van.
	Well, she puts free indeed John 8, 36 all over that van.
	We're just like, hey, hang on here.
	You know, is this safe for us to do?
	She's like, oh, yeah, it's safe.
	Well, it wasn't long after that.
	And I will tell you, we can tell stories about our wonderful interactions with Muslims there because what we're told is not true.
	The guy that does all of our typesetting in Pakistan, I can show you all the stuff she does over there, all the banners and all the things that we have.
	He is a Muslim that does this.
	And she has told me that she has gone to him and he is reading some of this.
	And he is like so curious about this Jesus that we know because he knows him as a prophet, but yet he's terrified to ask any more questions, right?
	So anyway, this moves along to where we're doing good in this Jaron Walla, this area that we're at, kind of a Christian little area.
	And so out of the blue, the government decides that they're going to put a Christian on the government as an advocate.
	Sounds good, right?
	So fast, right?
	Because the uprising, they burnt 99 homes.
	They killed a baby.
	They burnt 20 churches.
	And the government's response was, of course, to fire the guy that they were going to call as an advocate.
	We've one of our men beaten severely to an inch of his death because somebody took a page of the Quran, threw it out in front of him.
	He walked by, stepped on it, and they said that he blasphemed the Quran.
	And so, you know, this identity in Christ to them, the reason that they're happy is they know every day could be that day for them, standing up for Jesus.
	But now that they realize they're an eternal spirit with a soul that's going to live forever and that we have a whisper of a life and that things here are rubbish, they get all that and they clutch onto it.
	And so that's why I, although I was happy to talk about some of the drug addiction, you see now what I'm saying, that this is so much bigger of an issue.
	It's identity.
	Who am I?
	You know, what I have decided, once you say you're a believer, there are certain conditions to all this.
	We want to act like in our culture, oh, say a little prayer, do what you want, go to church on Sunday, be a good person, and you're going to go to heaven.
	But if you read in the Bible, there's nowhere anywhere that substantiates that.
	It is purely conditional for those in Christ.
	Therefore, those, if you're in Christ, you're a new creation, right?
	Romans 8, 1, you know, that there is no condemnation for those in Christ.
	That's right.
	Right.
	And you miss that richness.
	I mean, the fact that these people can be content with their life, probably more content than most Americans, under these difficult circumstances, that is the thing that we're missing here.
	You know, we have so much and yet it is so shallow, so materialistic, and they can transcend that.
	And a large part of that, and we can always look at this in our own personal lives, so many times the difficult things are the times that we grow and we get closer.
	And just like in your life, Doc, the fact that you had such a long, difficult period of darkness makes the light so much sweeter, doesn't it?
	Yes, it does.
	It definitely does.
	Well, not only that, the whole idea of testimony, this man has been able to sit eye to eye with countless people, person after person after person, on one-on-one basis.
	And that person, no.
	Just in the last week or two, I had a situation here at the house.
	There was a worker and he, you a pastor?
	I'm like, yeah.
	And he was at a breaking point.
	I mean, this guy was ready to give it all up.
	And so, you know, he reaffirmed his love of Christ and he said, hey, will you do this with me?
	I said, well, I will, but I got somebody else.
	And so because he had suffered a period of alcoholism and was still in the throes of it.
	And that evening, Doc had about a 45-minute conversation with the man because I knew that was the handoff, right?
	Six months after I'd been saved, the guy that led me to the Lord said, hey, there's a guy I need you to talk to.
	I'm like, it might not even been six months.
	I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you talking about?
	You're the pastor.
	You're a world evangelist.
	He goes, yeah, but I've never been divorced.
	So this concept is what the Bible teaches.
	You know, you want to hold someone's hand, and who better to hold someone's hand than someone who has already walked the path that that person is maybe going to be walking down?
	That's very wise.
	Yeah, that is very true.
	In the same token, it doesn't matter what that path is.
	Jesus is the antidote.
	That's right.
	He's the antidote for all the bars that were behind in our own prison.
	And, you know, I'd have never, if somebody would have told me years ago I'd be doing this, I'd have thought they were crazy.
	I'd probably ask them what they were smoking, to be honest with you.
	Let me ask some.
	But, you know, the Lord's plans are not my plans.
	And I'm learning every day to be that light for others because you can talk a good game all day long.
	But if you are not demonstrating that and experiencing, because we know life is just accumulation of experiences.
	And I tell these men, even, listen, I've never been incarcerated, but I could have been.
	But the Lord touched me to start a local jail ministry about 12 years ago.
	But then I found out that over 95% of the people that are in jail or prison, it's somewhere down drug or alcohol related.
	They're always usually not of sober mind, you know, when the crime, whatever they've done, they've done.
	So, you know, like you said, the light is the brightest where it's the darkest.
	That's right.
	And a lot of times that's where the darkness really is the deepest.
	Well, it truly is amazing what you guys have been involved in.
	But of course, as you'd point out, it is Christ who's leading you to that, leading you through that, and helping you to lead other people out of that.
	But it is wonderful to go back and to look at the power, especially as we're coming into a new year, the power that Christ gives us to completely change our life, to give us a new start.
	And I just hope that everybody takes a look at it because there isn't anybody that's arrived.
	There isn't any of us who can't find some richer, deeper walk with Christ, richer, deeper meaning in life coming up in this next year.
	And so it's great to talk to you guys again.
	You've got a book, Free Indeed.
	You've got a website, thewordsays.net.
	And of course, that's going to redirect to your new website that is going to be up pretty soon, I guess.
	Thanks for watching.
	And anything else you want to tell people before we go any other?
	I just wanted to leave with this word of hope.
	And I think it's the first scripture that comes into our book.
	And our hope is that people would embrace the fact that being free indeed is something that's attainable in this life.
	Not to give in to this attack.
	And so 2 Corinthians 3, verses 17 and 18 say this.
	Now the Lord is spirit.
	And where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
	And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord who is spirit.
	Get your identity going this year.
	Make that your not New Year's, but the rest of this existence on earth to understand spirit with a soul, and this body is very temporary.
	Amen.
	Well, thank you very much.
	Jeff Weiss and Doc Roberts, thank you, gentlemen.
	Thank you for what you do.
	Thank you for the positive message that all of us can benefit from.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you, David.
	Thank you so much.
	Thanks for having us.
	Thank you.
	Have a good day.
	God bless you.
	You're listening to The David Knight Show.
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	Welcome back.
	Joining us now is Todd Myers.
	We've talked to Todd before.
	He's with a think tank, a policy institute in Washington State.
	He's Vice President for Research At the Washington Policy Center.
	And this is in Washington State.
	Thank you for joining us, sir.
	Yeah, it's always nice to chat with you.
	Great to have you on.
	I saw your press release about what is happening in Washington State with CO2 emissions.
	Tell us a little bit about what is happening there in terms of their emissions actually going up.
	And I don't think that everything is melting there in Washington yet, is it?
	It's selling outside my window right now.
	Even though the CO2 emissions went up.
	So tell us what's happening in Washington, Washington State with their measuring of emissions.
	They've gone up over a 10-year period, I guess, a nine-year period, 2012 to 2021.
	So for those not in Washington State, you're probably wondering why do I care about Washington State's CO2 emissions?
	And the answer is that Washington and the West Coast has seen itself as a leader on climate change.
	You know, say, oh, here are the policies that we need to implement to reduce the risk from CO2 emissions and climate change.
	Our governor, Governor Inslee, actually ran for president, albeit briefly, in 2019 on the platform of addressing climate change.
	And his whole argument was that he was going to bring the policies that we've had in Washington state to the federal level to fight climate change.
	And we constantly call ourselves a leader.
	So across the country, these are the kinds of policies that are in Washington state that many, particularly on the left, want to implement.
	And what is notable is that they simply have failed to achieve their goal.
	A lot of focus is on the cost of the CO2 policies and climate change and things like that.
	But the simple fact is they don't work.
	And so Washington state this week released CO2 data through 2021.
	And so when you look at 2012, which was just before Governor Inslee took office, through 2021, the ninth year of his administration, CO2 emissions actually increased 5% over that period of time.
	And that's after COVID.
	So, you know, considering that even COVID couldn't cause the emissions to go down, it's pretty remarkable.
	During that same time, the United States CO2 emissions went down.
	And so the message for people who aren't in Washington state is these policies simply don't work.
	And if you care about CO2 emissions, if you care about the risk from climate change, don't do what Washington State has done.
	Look for more innovative ways that put people, not politicians, in charge.
	Yeah, and when we look at all this stuff in terms of CO2, we got the Paris Climate Accord, which is hanging over everybody's head.
	China is putting in two coal power plants a week.
	And supposedly, it's not a problem if the stuff comes from China.
	But the same CO2, if it's emitted in the United States or in Europe or other places like that, oh, it's going to kill us all.
	To me, that is the key thing about this.
	And it's kind of interesting that even in some of the places where they have scrupulously tried to reduce CO2, it's actually gone up.
	And it hasn't been a catastrophe either, has it?
	Yeah, and I think that the challenge is that the exaggeration and sort of dishonesty has made it so that people simply write off climate change as an issue.
	You know, there have been so much exaggeration about the impact, about the harm, and that sort of thing that people get very tired of it.
	We do know that CO2 does trap heat to some extent and there is some risk, but the problem is the exaggeration makes people just sort of roll their eyes.
	And then when you see the policies that cost a lot, raise energy prices, make things more expensive, and then don't work, the natural reaction of people is to say, this whole thing is a farce.
	This whole thing is about ideology.
	And, you know, it's hard to disagree in a lot of cases because even Al Gore, when he won the Nobel Prize for his work on climate change, said that climate change is an excuse to do things we should be doing anyway, right?
	So he said, you know, it's a good way to implement our ideology.
	And that's what you see in Washington State.
	But I think that for those on the center right, like myself, we do need to recognize that there are things that we're doing to impact ecosystems or to wildlife and things like that.
	And if you look, and what I always point out to people is, look at a map.
	Look at where nature is and look at where conservative voters are.
	They are overlapped.
	Conservatives live surrounded by the environment because they love it and they want to be good stewards.
	But what the failure of Washington state shows is that top-down political policies fail and bottom-up efforts to save energy, to save money too, are a much better way to be good stewards of the planet.
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	I talked this week about the classic case at the turn of the century where in big cities like New York or Seattle or London, they had so much horse manure and horse urine that were accumulating in the streets.
	And it's like, and what saved that?
	Was it a government-designed program that dictated solutions to people?
	Or was it a free market where people got to try things?
	And of course, you're talking about this from the standpoint of Washington State.
	And you said, how does this affect everybody else?
	You know, it's the federalism that we have, the fact that different states can try different things.
	And the beauty of that is that we can see what works.
	But the beauty of it is we can also see what does not work.
	And I guess Washington State falls into the latter category.
	Tell us a little bit about some of these regulations.
	What have they done in Washington State that is in terms of forcing people to do this or that, that hasn't really even accomplished their metric by their own paradigm?
	What kind of regulations have you been seeing there in Washington State over this 10-year period?
	Well, there's a few things, and I'll give you two examples.
	One, we have lots of building regulations that force buildings to be what are called green buildings.
	And in fact, years ago, we implemented a law that required all school buildings to meet what are called green building standards.
	And so I started looking at these green buildings and these green schools to see if they were in fact saving money.
	And what I Found was that green schools that meet these standards actually used more energy per square foot than the non-green schools in those same school districts for a variety of reasons.
	And you see this with buildings.
	There has been research that in Seattle, green buildings actually do worse than almost anywhere else.
	So one of the things was, is that these very restrictive building standards about what you had to build, Seattle in King County, where Seattle is, is one of the most expensive places to live in the United States.
	We have a housing shortage.
	We have very high prices.
	And it's because we've added a lot of these regulations, so-called green regulations, that have ended up failing.
	Let me give you one more example.
	The number one source of CO2 emissions in Washington State is transportation.
	So the governor and others have said, oh, well, what we need to do is to build a lot of electric vehicle charging stations.
	But many of those charging stations sit unused because where people tend to charge up is at home.
	And if they are out and they see a charging station, they will plug in.
	But they're not very useful in terms of actually keeping your vehicle charged.
	And, you know, if you're in the store, you don't get much of a charge while you're there.
	So it doesn't help, it doesn't do much to actually help reduce CO2 emissions or help people who have electric vehicles.
	And the result is we spend millions, tens of millions of dollars on electric vehicle charging stations that sit there and do nothing.
	That's just a waste of money.
	And so people focus on that as a waste of taxpayer dollars, which it certainly is, but it's also a waste of opportunity to do good things for the planet.
	There are lots of projects that we actually could do to make it energy more efficient.
	We're fighting, I used to work with salmon recovery.
	We have very low populations of salmon.
	There's things we can do there.
	So if you waste money on useless EV charging stations, rather than doing projects that help salmon, you are harming the environment by misallocating resources in addition to wasting tax barrier.
	And of course, what we're seeing with all this stuff is that they will come up with one solution, like an electric battery car, right?
	And they will subsidize that heavily.
	They will shut down any other competition.
	And even if it is something like another form of electric car, let's say a fuel cell car or a hydrogen car, even if it's something that could also be zero emission.
	No, no, no.
	We've got this one solution and you're going to do that.
	That's something that we see from the government all the time.
	But I want to step back and when you talk about the schools and how the ones that were green schools and they gave them regulations about how they wanted to build them and that type of thing.
	What was it that caused, what types of things were they having these schools do that caused them to use more energy than other schools that didn't follow this green building regulation scheme?
	Yeah, people are always, when I mentioned that, they're always flabbergasted that you could make a green building and make it actually worse than the existing buildings.
	There are several things that they did.
	One is, and I never understood this, but they repeated it again and again, which is they said, well, we're going to have big windows because big windows allow in more light and therefore you need fewer lighting fixtures and that will save electricity.
	Well, LED light bulbs are extremely efficient, very low energy, put out a lot of light.
	And so there's just not very much energy to be saved by reducing that amount of light.
	However, windows are not very efficient, right?
	They let a lot of heat in.
	They let a lot of cold in as well, right?
	When during the summer, it's hot, or in the winter, it's cold.
	And so you have to constantly run the HVAC to keep that room a normal temperature.
	The other thing that, and that more than offsets any energy savings you get from light.
	The other thing that they do is they say, well, we want clean air.
	We want fresh air.
	So what they do is they have requirements to have, to recirculate the air, to pull the old air out, put new air in.
	And what do you got to do?
	You've got to heat that.
	You've got to cool that, whatever.
	And so they're constantly running the HVACs.
	And so I talked with several facilities directors, not just in Washington state, but across the country where these were.
	And they just said, in order to build a green school, we would actually have to increase the size of the HVAC system to meet these new requirements.
	But I want to address your point about the one size fits all.
	That's the fundamental problem with government programs, or I shouldn't say the fundamental, a fundamental problem, which is, is that there is one size.
	And if it doesn't work, then you've lost time.
	We need a diversity of efforts.
	So, you know, I would be a horrible book author if I didn't mention my book, Time to Think Small, which focuses on exactly this issue, which is lots of small efforts and a diversity of efforts are better ways to find not only solutions that work, but solutions that fit people's lives.
	Rather than have government impose restrictions on people that make their lives more difficult, a diversity of solutions, especially with technology, allows them to find ways to save energy, save money, do things that fit their lifestyle, make their life better while also making the planet better.
	And so I think that's the real key is that we need a diversity of things.
	What I'm hoping is, is that during the upcoming Trump administration, rather than just simply saying all of these environmental, this focus is ridiculous, to say we need a new approach.
	We need a diversified approach, federalism, local power, rather than top-down government power to show that this way works better than the one-size-fits-all government approach.
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	When we're talking about the federalism and the fact that, you know, we can see what works and what doesn't work based on different states and everything.
	And unfortunately, there's this idea that is taking hold in America across a political spectrum.
	It doesn't seem to me to matter whether people are on the left or the right, Republican, Democrat.
	Everybody thinks that a solution needs to come from Washington.
	And one of the results of that is that we get this one size fits all.
	We're going to have a dictated solution.
	And that's the way this is going to work.
	And we need to be able to experiment to find out what works and what doesn't work.
	That's a key thing.
	You know, it's kind of interesting, and you addressed this in your press release, the fact that the most recent data that they just released is 2021.
	Why is that?
	If this is something that's such a high priority for them, why aren't they, maybe it's because it's not working.
	They don't want people to count it.
	Why are they three years behind in all this stuff?
	So, another problem with, I mean, more evidence, this is, I think, more evidence that simply bureaucracy is not up to the task, certainly of addressing environmental issues as well as other issues.
	And the fact that here we are in 2025, and the most recent data we have for Washington state CO2 emissions is 2021.
	Interestingly, that is actually in violation of state law.
	State law says that by the end of even numbered years, like 2024, they are to release emissions data for the preceding two years, which would have been 2022 and 2023.
	So I pointed this out and said that the state is actually in violation of its own law and being two years behind.
	And the problem with that is that 2021 data is useless if you are a policymaker and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, because you can say, oh, and what they do say is, oh, yes, we didn't meet those targets, but the policies we adopted after that are working.
	Well, it's like, well, how do you know?
	You don't have any data.
	You're just making it up.
	And so when I pointed this out, that they were in violation of their law, the governor's press secretary sent out a snarky email saying, you know, what Todd doesn't understand is how difficult it is to gather this information.
	Well, exactly.
	The government doesn't have the capacity to get the information and to do the job in a way that will work.
	That's what they are admitting is it's like, look, we can't do this.
	The other irony is, is that we actually have very onerous restrictions in Washington state about electric vehicles.
	You can't basically sell a recreational vehicle or a semi in Washington state because there aren't enough electric vehicles to sell because you have to sell a certain percentage of that.
	So we stopped.
	So the argument has been to the same agency who put these numbers out.
	Look, we would like to comply.
	We can't.
	It's physically not possible to comply.
	And the response of the agency is, sorry, that's the law.
	So, you know, when it's other people, it's the law that you have to follow.
	When it's them, they whine about the fact that it's not possible for them to actually comply with the law.
	And I think that just shows you, you know, how incapable bureaucracy is of addressing these serious challenges, but also how image, their own image is more important than actually reducing CO2 emissions.
	As much as they talk about it's an existential crisis, when the choice is between admitting failure and saying, yes, we need to do better, or making excuses, they make excuses to save their own image.
	And that's something that we see all the time.
	You know, I talk about the fact that when you look at, let's say, a command control economy's socialism, look at East Germany versus West Germany or North Korea versus South Korea.
	Why is it that they don't have any goods in the stores?
	Well, they don't really, because they don't have a market system.
	Even if you had the smartest people in control, and we know that's not what happens, even if you had the smartest people in control, they don't have sufficient information to be able to make decisions about what is going to work the best.
	That's what a marketplace does.
	And so as you point out, they're making this confession that, yeah, it's not possible for us to get all this information together.
	It's not possible for them to get enough information together to make an intelligent decision.
	That's what the whole free market is about, everybody.
	And that's what your book is about as well.
	You know, getting small and pulling back instead of having central planning and dictates and mandates and bans that are being put on all kinds of things.
	And I imagine you probably have that as well.
	I mean, we're looking at Biden going out the door, banning hot water heaters and other things like that.
	I'm sure you guys were way ahead of that, right, at state level.
	Yes.
	In fact, we just in Washington state, the state tried to ban natural gas hookups, not just the heaters, not just the stoves or anything like that, but actually running natural gas to new homes.
	They tried to ban it.
	The voters overturned that in this last election because they recognized that it was so extreme.
	Yeah, and we've seen that in the UK as well.
	You know, they've done the same thing there.
	They want to ban natural gas and stuff.
	And, you know, heat pump in a really cold climate like you've got in Washington State or like they've got in the UK, heat pumps just don't make it, handle it very well during the winter.
	And so, but they don't care.
	And they want to, in the UK, they even want to remove the existing infrastructure.
	I mean, they want to rewild is one of the terms that they've used.
	They want to rewild the infrastructure that's been built.
	In other words, you know, just take everything back down to nothing.
	That's what you're seeing everywhere.
	Yeah.
	Well, in fact, you mentioned heat pumps.
	So I live in the mountains and we have a heat pump.
	Well, last January, it was negative 10 where I was.
	Fortunately, I have a propane backup.
	And so I have a propane tank that when it gets that low, that we can heat our house because the heat pump, when it gets, you know, in the teens and certainly negative temperatures, it doesn't work.
	I also have a smart thermostat.
	And my smart thermostat would come up and say, we think that your heat pump is broken because it's just turning and not generating any heat.
	And I was like, yes, because it's negative 10.
	And so that, I think, is the challenge of these one-size-fits-all approaches.
	But you made a really good point about local control.
	And I think there's two things.
	One is that you need to have the information.
	Distant bureaucrats simply don't have the information necessary to make those good decisions because it's not in front of them.
	And everybody's circumstances are a little bit different.
	The second thing is that you need accountability so that when something goes wrong or when it goes right, you get that feedback.
	When you fail, you say, okay, we got to change.
	Bureaucrats don't have that feedback.
	They don't have that accountability.
	And there's a fantastic example here in Washington State.
	So the Quinult tribe, which is out on the coast, had been, has these beautiful forests, but the Bureau of Indian Affairs had been doing all of the timber harvesting on the land on behalf of the tribe.
	And what did they do?
	They clear-cut massive areas and then left slash on the ground, they said, Don't worry, it will decompose and trees will regrow between them.
	But what they didn't realize was that cedar has a chemical in it that slows decomposition.
	So, what was left was these massive areas where there was just all this timber slash and no regrowth at all for decades, literally for decades.
	So, the tribe said, well, look, why don't we take over the forestry on our own land?
	Because they were the ones who were paying the price.
	They lived there, not the BIA, right?
	The BIA was making decisions from Washington, D.C. So they took it over.
	And what was the first thing they did?
	They forested, they removed this lash, and they started harvest rotations that were sustainable that would bring back those forests.
	Now, critically, they harvested for revenue.
	They want that money because they recognize that it's a valuable resource and they use it to fund part of the tribe's budget.
	So they didn't just, you know, leave the trees, but they were better stewards because they had the information about how cedar worked as opposed to other trees.
	And then they also had the accountability.
	And my favorite part of the story was, is that when the tribe took over forestry in the early 2000s, completely from the BIA, the BIA said, the BIA had been harvesting without any environmental assessments at all.
	They said, well, we have a general plan, go harvest.
	When the tribe took over, the BIA said, you have to do environmental assessments.
	You can imagine the tribe's reaction when they said, you haven't been doing it, but we have to.
	And the BIA said yes.
	I think that's the arrogance sometimes of government overseeing, and in this case, I mean, really treating the tribe badly, who had been doing a better job than the BIA.
	Accountability is just so much better for the environment.
	Oh, yeah.
	I guess my question is, do they have some special status that we don't have that they could take back control from this bureaucracy?
	Because that's the biggest problem.
	We can't get control back from these bureaucracies that are doing a bad job.
	How did they get it back?
	Was it because of their status as Indians?
	Yeah, it was because they have sovereignty.
	Now, what sovereignty means on tribal lands is sort of interesting because the BIA is supposed to hold the land in trust and manage it for the benefit of the tribes.
	It's an incredibly paternalistic system.
	I think, but the point that you make is that in the tribes, they have the opportunity to do that.
	They can at least make an argument that they are sovereign and can do that.
	You and I, we can't say, hey, we would rather have control.
	Let us figure a way to be better stewards.
	You know, the federal and state agencies don't do that for us.
	So I think it's funny because I've started studying tribal stewardship of natural resources for this very reason, which is that they have more control.
	And I think that in many ways, they provide a really good model for how we should care for natural resources because they have that local control, local knowledge, and the accountability.
	And when it comes to forests, fisheries, wildlife habitat, wildlife management, they do a better job.
	I'll give you one more fun example, which is that in Washington State, the wolf is considered a threatened species.
	But on the Colville Reservation, which is right in the area where the wolves are, they consider the wolf recovered because the populations are very high, and they actually hand out hunting permits.
	That's the tribe.
	So when they have authority and when it affects them, they can say, look, we're using the information we have.
	We have the accountability.
	We have the control to do a better job than the sort of bureaucratic systems from the government.
	Well, that's interesting.
	But part of it is, and again, it is the status of the Indians, but regular Americans have sovereignty that they're not using as well.
	And I think that they need to start using the 10th Amendment and some of these other things because federal policy, especially when you talk about forests, and we were talking about that earlier in the program with the fires that are happening in L.A., seen it over and over again.
	Poor forestry management, because they're not doing stewardship anymore.
	They're doing environmentalism and it's kind of just, you know, don't touch anything type of thing rather than actually doing stewardship.
	And it has been disastrous for the last 50 years and it's getting worse all the time.
	And so I think everybody needs to start getting together and seeing how we're going to increase our sovereignty so that we can start addressing some of these problems ourselves.
	And of course, that's what your book is focused on, not the political aspect of it, but the beauty of having smaller local decisions.
	Tell us a little bit about your book again.
	I know we talked about it last time you were on, and the title of it is.
	Time to think small, how nimble environmental technology can solve the planet's biggest problems.
	And there are a lot of folks on the center right who care about the environment, but are very skeptical about environmental issues because they feel that it's a Trojan horse for policies that they don't like.
	And in many cases, as we discussed, it is.
	But they want to find an alternative that they can support to be to, you know, to protect the natural resources.
	Like I said, conservatives live around that.
	The other source that I've had a lot of people say is my college-age son or daughter comes back and lectures me about the environment and why don't we care about the environment.
	And so I've said, well, give them my book.
	It'll explain a better way to help the environment.
	But what it shows is, is that in the 1970s when we created the EPA, you didn't have the technology, you didn't have the control for individuals to make a big difference in environmental stewardship.
	That's just simply not true anymore.
	We now have the technology.
	We now have the ability to do really remarkable things to be good stewards of the environment in ways that bureaucracies fail.
	And so what we recognize, what we need to recognize is that we need to change the way that we do environmental stewardship, put the power in the hands of individuals, peoples, innovative companies, and less in the hands of politicians and bureaucrats who tend to focus on their own interests rather than the interests of the planet.
	And Washington state's failure on reducing CO2 emissions that we saw this week is really just the perfect example of where an issue that the politicians say is critical, an existential crisis, and yet even they fail and then make excuses for that fail rather than saying we need to find a better way.
	For them, it's about political image, it should be about for the planet.
	For conservatives and those on the center right who live near nature every day, that's what thinking small, that's what these new technologies, that's what my book is about.
	It's about ways to do that that actually live that that help us to live the lives the way we want while being good stewards of the planet.
	That's really well said.
	And again, the book is Time to Think Small by Todd Myers.
	And I guess I can find that at Amazon anywhere books are sold, right?
	Yep, absolutely.
	That's great.
	Yeah, I've seen that same type of thing.
	As a matter of fact, I worked with a guy at a think tank who had been with the EPA at the time.
	He had just retired.
	He was with them for about 30 years right after their creation.
	And to see that it had kind of changed its whole mission statement, you know, and the EPA has not really been about pollution anymore.
	It's all about the environmentalism.
	And so that's what we see with the bureaucracies.
	And it's really by design because it allows these people who have to stand for election to not have any accountability either because they can always push it onto the bureaucracy.
	Thank you so much for joining us, Todd Myers.
	And again, the book is Time to Think Small by Todd Myers, and he works there at the Washington Policy Center.
	Thank you, all of you, and thank you, Sandy Hayes.
	I appreciate that.
	Thank you for the tip.
	Have a good day.
	music
	Making sense common again.
	You're listening to The David Knight Show.
	The David Knight Show.
	The David Knight Show.
	You're listening to The David Knight Show.
	The David Knight Show
	The David Knight Show I was sitting at my desk there on the eighth floor.
	The building started striking.
	The lights went out.
	Restart the phone on my desk.
	So it hit me in the back of the head, knocked me out before the dropshipping went off.
	What that tells you is that there were other explosive devices in the building that actually brought the building down.
	It's an earthquake.
	Everybody gets down underneath on the floor.
	And I had sat there and I thought, no.
	It doesn't feel like it seven or eight seconds later.
	I felt this explosion.
	Only an imbecile would look at that damage pattern and not understand that it couldn't have been made by a truck bomb.
	Because a truck bomb is going to release its energy simultaneously in every direction.
	The record clearly shows that Dr. John West consulted Timothy McKay's defense team.
	Dr. West had previously been a psychiatrist and consulted for Patty Hearst, Saran Zaran, and Jack Ruby.
	A Noble Lie, Oklahoma City, 1995, will change forever the way you look at the true nature of terrorism.
	The grand jury did not want to hear anything I had to say.
	The decision was made not to pursue any more of those individuals.
	The greatest manhook there's ever been.
	Do you remember the Whitewater investigation in Arkansas?
	All the paperwork was stored in the Murray Belt.
	Hey, somebody knew about a prior bomb threat.
	Every bit of important evidence has brought us to the Oklahoma City bombing.
	Expose the cover-up now at a noble lie.com.
	Joining us now is Chris Emery of FreemindFilms.com, and we wanted to talk to him about an update to the Oklahoma City bombing.
	A very important film was done.
	I guess it's now.
	The first one was done in 2011.
	They've done some updates to it.
	The most recent one was 2015.
	That was the 20th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing.
	We've just hit the 30th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing.
	And there is new information, and they're talking about doing a new investigation.
	We're going to get that information from Chris Emery of FreemindFilms.com.
	Thank you for joining us, Chris.
	David, thank you so much.
	It's great to be talking to you again.
	It's been a while.
	Yeah, it has.
	It has.
	I remember talking about this so many times.
	Very important film.
	And we played the trailer just before the interview, so people can get a sense of it.
	There's so many different issues with what happened with Oklahoma City.
	And, of course, reeked from the very beginning, part of a long chain of questionable events for many of us going back to Waco and Ruby Ridge.
	And then this, I think that, you know, obviously it was connected, and I think it was connected by the government to shut that investigation down.
	But then we have the other events that were connected.
	We had 9-11, dark winter, the pandemic, all these different types of things.
	Once people realize with any of these that we have been lied to and deceived, and they start to see how this agenda kind of lines up through these different things, then that is when the lights come on and people start to ask some real questions.
	Because now people are starting to ask questions there in Florida.
	Tell us a little bit about that.
	Yes.
	Well, ever since the new Trump administration was sworn in, we've had a lot of information, of course, with the NIH, with the FBI.
	There's fresh blood.
	And as one of my colleagues in Congress said, well, we've got several fresh set of eyes on this thing, and they want to basically start from scratch.
	And they know that there was a lot of malfeasance going on.
	Merrick Garland, of course, the former U.S. Attorney General, he was appointed as a U.S. Special U.S. Prosecutor to head up the Oklahoma City investigation within about a week after the case was, the bombing happened in April of 1995.
	We found out as a film crew in October of 2003, I had a meeting with Stephen Jones, who was McVeigh's lead defense counsel.
	I had a meeting at his office in Eden, Oklahoma, and he heard through the grapevine that our crew really wanted to do a great job, very professional job, to strip down to the bare bones, find out what really happened, put the official narrative under magnifying glass.
	And after about 10 minutes in the film, we tore that apart and started all over again.
	But to back up a second, after about a three-hour meeting I had with him at his office in north-central Oklahoma, he said that he was going to give us full and unfettered access to 142 boxes of legal documents that he had at a repository in Austin, Texas.
	And it was at the law library adjacent to the LBJ Presidential Library north of UT campus.
	And he said that Merrick Carlin, three and a half months, basically strongly urged and pleaded with the trial judge, Richard P. Mash, who presided over both the Nichols and the McVay trial, to he wanted that information in those boxes sealed for seven years.
	So what we were able to gain, over 90% of that information, including relevant exculpatory evidence, it would have proven Nichols was completely innocent, and McVeigh was set up.
	We found out subsequently, when we went through that, that the jury in both trials never saw that information.
	We literally opened a vault of incredible information.
	So that information is relevant to a reinvestigation, and there are members of Congress, surprisingly, on both sides of the aisle that want to take a look at this and say, hey, let's start over.
	And we're very cautiously optimistic.
	We understand that there may be some folks that may want an underhanded approach, but the people that we talked to said, no, we really want to do a good job on this.
	And that's in line with Tulsi Gabbard, with RFK, with Cash Fatel.
	And they're willing to admit, hey, there is information on the RK case, the JFK, Martin Luther King.
	So this is basically in lockstep with that.
	And I've got a very important meeting tomorrow morning, actually, with some key researchers in the case, as well as a member of Congress that are very serious about looking at this.
	That's great.
	I hope that it will happen.
	And when I look at it, because of the role of Merrick Garland, because this is kind of like his first starring role, I guess, you know.
	Right.
	And also the connection with the Clintons and things like that, I look at it because of that political angle.
	I've got some hope that this might happen.
	We might have an investigation because this would help these people.
	When we look at some of the stuff like the Epstein files, I'm kind of suspicious about the fact that with Trump's connections with it, that they would ever release anything about that.
	And even when you go back to the JFK files, if anybody ever put anything in there that was going to be incriminating, they would have gotten rid of that a long time ago.
	So I've been really skeptical and dubious about those.
	But this, because of the connections of Merrick Garland, who is going to be severely hated by Donald Trump.
	And also Hillary.
	Talk a little bit about Hillary and all the documents that were there with the Clintons there at that building in Oklahoma City.
	Well, what we found out, we actually had a source in Little Rock, Arkansas.
	This was a gentleman that served a dual role with the Secret Service and the ATF.
	And he said that there were documents in the building that were going to be brought forward to indict both Bill and Hillary on corruption and underlaundering charges through the Whitewater case.
	Now, as a film crew, we weren't able to actually see any of those documents, but this trusted source said yes.
	The documents were in the building.
	And here's, it's very, you know, you don't have to get too complicated to really go through the thread of history here.
	And I said, why would they be stored in the Murray Building in downtown Oklahoma City?
	He says, because there was an arcane rule in Congress, if you're going to indict a sitting president, it cannot be held in the federal courthouse in the home state.
	And by geographic default, Oklahoma City was the closest federal courthouse to the one in Little Rock.
	New Orleans was too far away, St. Louis, Dallas.
	So they literally brought them to Oklahoma City and stored them in the A.P. Murray Federal Building.
	And our best guess is that they were on the seventh floor in the DEA safe room, which was actually built into the building long after the grand opening.
	The DEA had a custom safe room there, and we know of other information that was stored there, as well as contraband and money for a big drug case that was due to go to court in May of that year.
	So there was a lot of concentric circles, a lot of dual purposes, basically to have the destruction of that building and the documents that would have...
	They probably would have been in prison.
	So the stakes were very, very high.
	And as you know, the Clintons are as corrupt as the day is long, and they fight tooth and nail to stay in power.
	So this would have taken them down.
	Yeah, it was interesting.
	My son showed me a screen clip, and it looks like it's something that could actually, I didn't verify if it was real or not, but it said something about all the suicides around the Clintons.
	And it was asked an AI chat program about it, and it started with listing several of them.
	It got to Jeffrey Epson and it goes, and it stops.
	And it goes, error occurred.
	I don't know if that was real or not, or if that was something photoshopped.
	But, you know, that's kind of where we have been with all of this stuff.
	And when you look at the fact, even more so than Hillary, Merrick Garland, this would align if they could find the truth on him, if there's some kind of a cover-up, this would perfectly align with Trump's desire to get vengeance.
	So that could actually work in our favor to try to get some truth out of this thing.
	Now, one of the things, and you mentioned it even in the trailer that I played before the interview, the fact that, and I remember this from the New American, the John Burch Society, they had a former demolitions general, and he talked about the fact that if you look at the blast pattern, it was not a single point source.
	So it was not coming from a car.
	And in the trailer, you've got somebody saying, no, I was there.
	There was two explosions.
	One of them knocked me down.
	Then there was another explosion.
	So this wasn't a single point source.
	Multiple indications of that.
	Many, many things about it that were very suspicious.
	But talk a little bit about that aspect of it.
	Well, actually, the person you're referring to is probably General Benton Parton.
	And I actually met with him.
	This was two weeks before I met with McVay's Defense Counsel.
	I was at General Parton's home in Alexandria, Virginia.
	We had just finished having a steak dinner at Fort Belvoir, and he was at the officers' club.
	We drove back to his house, and we sat up to almost 3 o'clock in the morning.
	And I was just looking at the documents I have.
	It's three pages of legal document or pad pages, both sides, that he scribbled out the formulas and everything.
	And he explained to me, he says, look, these were the broissants and the damage to three main support columns.
	And we're able to find out exactly which ones through the blueprints that were provided to us by a source at the GSA office in Fort Worth.
	And he said that if you had ANFO in a 52-foot trailer in pristine lab conditions, obviously which didn't exist that day, it was 42-mile an hour headwinds.
	It was about 47 degrees, and the humidity was pretty high.
	He said, even if you had perfect lab conditions, it still wouldn't have done the damage it did to that building, which completely refutes the ANFO narrative.
	So that's just cock and bowl.
	That's like Acme Bomb and a Roadrunner cartoon.
	It's ridiculous.
	So, but what he said was that, yes, there were actually 23 devices in the building, and we corroborated this from the Oklahoma County Bomb Squad, a medic that came forward and helped us out that was on the squad that morning and reported to the scene within about 10 minutes after the blast.
	They know what to look for.
	There was odor of C4 and cordite in the air, which he remembered as this source remembered from Vietnam when he served there.
	It was unbelievable.
	Yeah, you don't forget that.
	You don't forget that.
	I mean, this sense of smell is really hardwired into your memory.
	And I imagine the last time you smelled that stuff, you were in Vietnam under fire or something.
	That's going to be immediate connection to you, right?
	Well, here's the key.
	Even on the very first helicopter footage that you saw, the bombing, and a third of the building was launched a good block and a half to the north of where it stood.
	Looked like an alien craft just sucked it and displaced it everywhere.
	But the key is, David, when you look at that footage that was shot within about 20 minutes after the bombing, there was no fires.
	There was no flames in the building.
	That, again, refutes the majority of the damage being done by ANFO.
	Because we have a case, we went and looked, we had to go retro to look at other cases that ANFO was used.
	In August of 1970, the Army Math Research Building on the campus of University of Wisconsin-Madison, there was ANFO used, a much smaller quantity than was alleged in the truck.
	And there were flames coming out of the building.
	It was on fire.
	I interviewed the police chief at the time that had the archives from that case.
	And he said, yeah, they had not only the Madison Police Department, but the UW Fire Department and the city and the county respond.
	And they had to bring in, here's another key, David.
	22 people from that case had to be taken to the hospital because they were buckling over vomiting from the ANFO, the fumes.
	That never happened in Oklahoma City.
	Why?
	Because Terry Ake, who we featured in the film, went in literally within about 12 minutes after the blast was pulling people out.
	He never got violently sick.
	So the whole narrative of ANFO is completely wiped out.
	Once you look at it, in the prior cases and what happened, just medical treatment of the people rushing in.
	None of the search and rescue, none of the first responders, none of the victims that survived.
	And of course, Teriki, none of them started vomiting from ANFO fumes.
	So that means that there was dry ordnance that was used, the cordide and explosives that were set on the columns between floors two and three, between the drop ceiling and the next concrete slab.
	There was about three feet.
	They were set hidden above the drop ceiling, and there were electronic mercury switches that were used to set those off.
	Three of them had gone off.
	20 of them were rendered inert.
	And they were set to go off within 10 minutes of the initial blast to kill the first responders, search and rescue, and People coming in.
	But luckily, that second phase of the bombing, the ordinance never went off.
	We would have had more devastation.
	It would have been horrendous.
	And so that's how you know so much detail about these pre-placed explosives is because they didn't detonate, right?
	Correct.
	And the bomb squad found them.
	Yeah, wow.
	That's amazing.
	And so, you know, when we look at this, if people had paid attention to your documentary, if they had paid attention to what was going on, perhaps we would not have had a follow-up where we've got three buildings collapsed in the footprint with two planes, only two of them being hit by a plane and that type of thing.
	If people were aware, wait a minute, they have blown up buildings in the past and given us a completely different narrative about how that happened, perhaps that would wake up people as well.
	Let's talk a little bit about, because Timothy McVeigh was the biggest question mark that I had.
	Why would he assume this role and push on this to essentially try to make himself a hero?
	What was going on with that?
	What was his role?
	Well, what we found out in those records that, and he even told his sister this, that he was actually a professional assassin and a gun runner for the CIA in the months leading up to the bombing.
	We know definitively from September of 94 through the morning of the bombing, he was working with at least seven guys in Oklahoma City.
	We know the motel where they stayed at.
	We saw the rooming list from the owner of the motel.
	But the point is that the bombing was actually, and a lot of people don't know this.
	McVeigh was at the understanding that was going to happen at 9 o'clock the night before, 12 hours earlier, with no casualties.
	There was only one security guard that actually, his security beat was four blocks between the federal courthouse, the federal building, the Morrow building, and then an apartment complex and another building.
	And they timed it.
	They literally cased this out for a week before to figure out when he was going to be in the building and when he was not.
	And they wanted to blow it up when he wasn't there.
	They don't want anybody count.
	Lo and behold, we have Louis Free, the director of the FBI.
	His number two in command, Larry Potts, was McVay's handler.
	Now let that soak in for about five seconds.
	McVay had a handler from the FBI that reported directly to Louis Free, who was ahead of the FBI.
	We had Robert Mueller help cover up the case, worked in tandem, glove in hand, with Merrick Carlin.
	So these guys rear their ugly heads later on.
	Robert Mueller doing an independent investigation of the Russia hoax.
	And when I found that out, I thought.
	And also involved with 9-11 as well.
	Yes.
	With him and for the 9-11 stuff.
	It's all the usual suspects, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	Grant, get this.
	Now, we had the Oklahoma County District Attorney's Office a speakerphone meeting within four days after the bombing.
	They're literally giving the local authorities and the DA's office marching orders on how the Oklahoma City case was going to be investigated, who they were going after, selective prosecution, who they were going to let go, because there were U.S. government assets that were helping with that.
	It wasn't supposed to go live, David.
	But Larry Potts says, no, we want a body count.
	And McVay said, oh, hell no.
	I'm a professional assassin and a drug smuggler.
	I'm not killing children.
	Well, he had him over the barrel and several other charges.
	And we got that directly from Terry Nichols, who got it from McVay.
	I don't know why McVay would make that up.
	He's a professional soldier.
	He's a professional assassin.
	You don't go after innocents like that.
	But he was ordered by Larry Potts to make sure there was a body count, hence what unfolded on the morning of April 19.
	So that's it in a nutshell there.
	And this information is going to come out.
	Hopefully we have the right people with the fortitude and the mental acuity and the moral fortitude to say, hey, we need to tell the people of Oklahoma, of the United States, and of the world what really happened that morning, why the 168 people, including three unborn children, were brutally murdered that morning.
	It's inexcusable.
	Now, on the 30th anniversary, one of the reasons this came up to me, I think, was because we talked about Nichols' lawyer, Trinidad.
	And, of course, he's got a website set up to honor his brother that he believes was involved and murdered and all of that, jessetrinidu.com.
	And he was talking about some new evidence as well.
	Are you connected in any way with him in this?
	I haven't.
	I've tried to reach out to Jesse.
	We've lost touch over the years, but we did keep in touch for about almost three years consistently.
	And there was an in-camera interview that we conducted from Oklahoma City through a video service.
	Oddly enough, my ex-roommate up there applied for a job the month before the bombing, and he was eyewitness and earwitness to all of the monitors and cameras that were working just fine.
	So for the F and the federal government, in Jesse's case, said, hey, they didn't exist.
	Well, we have a key witness that applied for a job that took the tour of the building a month before the bombing.
	That was, it was in, I believe, on Easter Sunday.
	We had a long talk with Jesse, and about a month later, I want to say 2012, 2013 is when that testimony was.
	And the federal prosecutor and the head of the team in Salt Lake City going against Jesse was furious that this witness came up.
	So they tried to basically impugn his reputation and his expertise on cameras.
	That was their easy way of backsliding out of it all, but it was irrefutable.
	So that was, yeah, we worked with Jesse on that.
	We showed other intel.
	And I think as we make progress on there, we definitely want to reach out to Jesse and have him be part of this.
	Yeah, Trinidad was the lawyer for Terry Nichols.
	And, you know, I think it's kind of interesting with all the back and forth that's going on between 60 Minutes and Trump.
	You know, 60 Minutes is presented as the impeccable source of integrity and all the rest of the stuff.
	But Trinidad came out and said, well, we had an interview that was scheduled with Terry Nichols.
	They got a call and they shut it down, which is also very interesting.
	That's a lot, doesn't it?
	In terms of the massive scope, as you pointed out, the FBI, the CIA was also involved.
	Now, of course, you mentioned that Louis Free and his number two guy was the handler for Timothy McVay.
	You mentioned that he's also had CIA connections in it.
	So we see all of the FBI, the CIA, the intelligence agencies that are there.
	And I'm sure that 60 Minutes is just another manifestation or tentacle, I guess, of the Operation Mockingbird stuff.
	They'll do what they're told.
	They'll do some investigations of maybe corporations or individuals, but they'll do what they're told when it comes to the government, I guess, right?
	Let me clarify what happened with 60 Minutes if you have a minute.
	Sure.
	So, Ed Bradley, rest his soul, he was actually a very good reporter, and his team sent notice, a written notice, and a set of questions of Terry Nichols to the Florence, Colorado superbacks.
	The staff that received the mail never passed it on to Terry Nichols.
	So literally, Ed Bradley and his team show up at the prison ready to do the interview.
	Nichols has no clue.
	There was no summons to bring him down from the cell block.
	That's where it went cold right there.
	And Bradley was not very happy about that.
	They flew out there and were ready to go.
	Lights, camera, everything ready to go.
	Nichols had no clue.
	And they sent this ahead of time.
	Now, the way Jesse got on there, from the best of my understanding, and Jesse could correct me, is that he was actually the legal counsel after the federal trial and the state of Oklahoma versus Terry Lynn Nichols trial.
	So he was on a list of attorneys that were able to visit Terry.
	After the debacle with 60 Minutes, John Ashcroft pretty much put a lid on that.
	He said, nobody's going to be talking to Nichols about this case ever.
	Why the hell would John Ashcroft step forward?
	Even, yeah.
	And then, of course, now the one that succeeded him years on, Merrick Garland, was in lockstep with all of that.
	So that's why there is a need to bring this information out.
	There's not a week that goes by that I don't think about evidence.
	They would either come up through an email or a friend contacting me.
	And they say, no, there's no way in hell I'm going to my grave, at least trying to do a decent job of getting this information out.
	And thank God we still have that core group that helped us with our film.
	The researchers, some of them are still alive, including Jesse, Charles Key, Craig Roberts.
	And I get a tip hat to your former boss, Alex Jones, and his staff for helping us with that.
	So we're going to stick at this as long as we can.
	These people never know what happened and why it happened.
	And you know, when you're talking about being a bipartisan thing, you know, again, John Ashcoff with the Republican administration is shutting this stuff down as well.
	Because, again, it's my personal opinion that the political parties are just kind of a front for the real government, which is going to be the people like the FBI, the CIA, and these other usual suspects that are there.
	So, of course, it's going to be a bipartisan issue there.
	But, you know, getting back to McVay, you know, one of the things about it, okay, so he's there, and he was going to set this thing up as, you know, blow this building when there weren't people there.
	They change it.
	They've kind of got him over a barrel.
	Why did he try to portray the defiant hero and all this?
	What do you think was up about that?
	You know what, David, and that's a very good question because we know from key witnesses.
	Let me, this is government glove in hand with what you just asked.
	We actually know there were two teams working on this.
	There was the McVeigh that was shot by Charlie Hanger within, I believe, an hour and 10 minutes after the bombing or less than that.
	Then there was the McVeigh that was actually downtown hanging out right after the bombing, a lookalike.
	So we don't know the McVay that was interviewed by 60 Minutes or was, you know, had his whole narrative.
	We don't know if that's the one that actually committed the case or committed the crime.
	So that's a whole level of confusion right there that we're still trying to sort through.
	And how do we know?
	Because Jermaine Johnson, who was a survivor of the bombing, who actually, interestingly enough, backed out of an interview with our film crew two hours before we were going to show up at her front door.
	I don't know who gave her the call or put the pressure on, but if you could picture this, David, the bombing happens.
	Jermaine Johnson, her hair is all over the place.
	There's concrete dust and everything.
	She literally came within an inch of her life.
	Several of her friends were killed in the bombing.
	Walks six blocks southwest of the, or southeast of the crime scene.
	McVay is leaning against the hood of his yellow mercury marquee with another guy.
	They're both looking toward the bomb site.
	Jermaine Johnson has no idea, obviously, who he is.
	Nobody knew until the next day when his face was all over the TV.
	And this individual looks just like McVay, asked her, he says, were there any people killed?
	And she said, yes, several of my friends were.
	She's still in shock figuring out what the hell just happened.
	So that's within, she said about 10 to 12 minutes after the bombing, who's the McVeigh that they stopped by Charlie Hanger.
	The state trooper that was his day off, who was out of his precinct.
	He was given orders to drive up that stretch of I-35 just south of Prairie, Oklahoma, not far from the Kansas border.
	We had an expert at the Oklahoma DOT Department of Transportation say there's no way that that McVeigh that Jermaine Johnson saw and the one that Charlie Hanger could have been the same one.
	That one that Jermaine Johnson saw would have had to been traveling at, he said, in excess of 135 miles an hour, no stoplights.
	Yeah, I mean, just from point A to point B, it would have been impossible.
	So we knew right there that there was two teams working.
	So, and Jermaine Johnson said, yeah, that looked just like the McVay on TV the next day.
	That information was never brought out.
	And that's why Merrick Garland was adamant about quashing a lot of the evidence.
	It would have really thrown confusion and suspect credibility on the prosecution case against McVay.
	It's like, all right, who are these two?
	Who did Charlie Hanger stop?
	And who was the one that Jermaine Johnson was talking to?
	So, but to your point is that, yes, he was working for the CIA.
	Merrick Garland did not want that to come out.
	And that was part of the records that we saw.
	We saw his pay grade, how his bills were getting paid, the fact that he had a allureged at his access for almost two and a half years before the bombing.
	He would go out and do what he needed to do, come home, take his dry cleaning, make dinner, get up the next morning, go do where else he had to do.
	It was unbelievable.
	And what he was getting paid was absolutely insane.
	Most of it was cash.
	Wow.
	So there's a possibility in your mind that there was one public McVay who's making all these radical statements about invictments and all the rest of this stuff.
	My head is bloody, but I'm Bowed.
	And then there was another one that they jailed and executed.
	Is that what you're saying then?
	Perhaps?
	Well, here again, they did jail this individual.
	We don't know if he even died.
	And that's Craig Roberts.
	Yeah.
	W. Craig Roberts and I have been on joint interviews several times.
	People ask us, Do you think he's dead?
	And without skipping a beat, we said, no, I don't think he's dead.
	And a retired CIA asset that helped us with investigating some of the financial end of this said, look, that would really throw rents in the works to recruit for the CIA when you're starting to kill off your assets like that.
	That's completely against their mode of operation, unless there's treason or they're working for an enemy.
	Then that's a whole different deal.
	Well, now, when Merrick Garnet wanted to quash information, I think, was that about the time that Hoppy Heidelberg, who was a part of the eventual grand jury and he's asking some questions and stuff like that, was it, and he got out of the grand jury and he convenes the citizens' grand jury to try to continue to investigate.
	Was that kind of in response to Merritt Garland quashing information?
	Okay, so what you're referring to is two different things, which is good.
	I'm glad you brought that up.
	Hoppy was a member of the grand jury.
	He was actually dismissed by Judge David Russell, who presided over selecting defense counsel and so forth.
	And Hoppy had 10 questions for him.
	We want relevant evidence.
	We want physical evidence.
	We want experts.
	We're entitled to this grand jury.
	The judge never responded to any of those.
	He summarily dismissed him from the jury without cause and threatened to have him.
	Yeah, it was unbelievable.
	So what Charles Key, the state representative, after that convened a citizens grand jury through his power and his authority as an Oklahoma state representative at the time.
	So there were two things going on at once.
	But yes, to answer your question, Merrick Arlin was also attempting to quash that exculpatory evidence to show McVay and Nichols.
	Nichols was completely innocent.
	He was set up.
	He was framed.
	And even the Inspector General's office report said, yeah, the evidence was basically slanted to incriminate both defendants, not only Nichols, but McVay.
	So there was a lot of things going on at once.
	And Merrick Garland was running to keep up with himself just to make sure that that evidence would never come out.
	And neither of the juries in both federal trials ever saw that evidence, the exculpatory evidence.
	Wow.
	Now, did Hoppy Heidelberg get involved with that citizens' grand jury that was convened by the representative?
	No, no, sir.
	That was separate.
	No.
	But I do want to share something with you.
	And rest of his soul, Hoppy passed away about a year after our film, seven months after the film was released.
	He passed on.
	In fact, it was in an interview with Infowars that he made the announcement that he had the cancer.
	And I was sitting right next to him in our studio in Oklahoma City.
	And I knew about it when I picked him up from his ranch that morning.
	We had about a 40-minute drive to the studio, and he told me everything.
	And he made the announcement to Alex.
	And Alex was shell-shocked.
	It was a hell of an interview for almost two hours on InfoWars.
	And that's a name that always sticks with you.
	It's phenomenal.
	Hoppy Heidelberg, yeah.
	That's one of the key things.
	It's been a while.
	Things are a little bit foggy for me because it's been a while since I've seen your documentary and looked into this, but that name always pops to the front.
	A very unusual name.
	An unusual guy, too.
	If only we had more people like him.
	One more relevant point with Hoppy, David.
	I moved to Oklahoma City in January of 2003, in late February.
	I drove down to his ranch, first time I met him.
	And we sat at his kitchen table and shared a pot of coffee for about three hours.
	And he told me toward the end, he says, look, I knew all of the information that it clearly showed other people were involved.
	We wanted that brought to the grand jury, and the judge wouldn't allow it.
	He got a visit from an attorney that he later figured out, Hoppy's a member of METSA.
	He's pretty smart.
	This guy, he's nobody's fool.
	And this particular attorney that showed up was very professional, didn't get in his face, but he said, we're at the point now, Mr. Heidelberg, where you're going to have to back off and stop asking questions.
	We know where your grandchildren live.
	We know where your daughters and your children work in the banks.
	He's showing him literally hoppy pictures of where your faces of employment are.
	And he said, if you don't back off, I can't guarantee their safety anymore.
	It was basically a very overt threat to say, back the F off or things are going to happen that's going to be very damaging to your family physically and mentally and financially.
	And he had no choice.
	So he goes from being a multi-million dollar horse breeder out of Blanchard, Oklahoma, 42 miles southeast of west of downtown Oklahoma City, to driving a school bus and hauling fuel oil.
	All of his clients basically just said, we don't want to talk to you anymore.
	You're crossing the line here.
	Yeah.
	Luckily, his wife had gainful employment.
	They were able to still keep the bills paid, but he went from a multi-millionaire to basically nothing.
	They stripped his gainful employment right out from under him and threatened his family.
	Wow.
	Yeah, it's not unusual, I guess, for us to see this happening with social media, with other venues as well.
	And of course, recently I played Ginny McCarthy talking about the fact that she was threatened just because she was talking about the vaccine stuff.
	They threatened her, threatened her family, and messed with her career.
	So it is truly amazing the corrupt system and the intimidation that is there.
	But when we look at this as we go into the future, and it is hopeful that we might be able to get something again, there's a lot of in a new investigation opening this up and perhaps getting to some additional information.
	But I would recommend everybody, I'm going to go back and refresh my memory on this as well, because it truly is a fascinating story and one that is indicative of our times and of our government as well.
	But before we end, Terry Nichols, tell us a bit about Terry.
	Now, you know, Timothy McVeigh, very strange character, the connections that he had with the CIA, the FBI, the rest of this.
	Terry Nichols, is he just kind of a Patsy that was brought in by McVeigh?
	Well, they served together at Fort Riley in Kansas.
	They did not serve Together in Iraq.
	Terry was stateside, I believe, when Tim was serving overseas.
	But yes, he was brought in as a patsy.
	We did find out, and I, there were two trials that went on with Terry.
	It was the federal trial.
	They were indicted under eight counts of murder because there were eight federal employees killed that morning.
	Then, the state of Oklahoma versus Terry Lynn Nichols, there were 160 counts of murder because they were non-federal employees and civilians from the state of Oklahoma.
	And that was the state trial.
	There was no state trial for McVay because, quote unquote, he was killed under lethal injection.
	Again, we don't know if that was even true.
	But Terry had a very, how do we say this, arrested development personality.
	He had the mental and the intellectual acuity of an eighth grader.
	So he's very easy, very easy to manipulate.
	Never heard him in the seven days that I was at the state trial, often on driving back and forth from Oklahoma City to McAllister, Oklahoma.
	It was at the Pittsburgh County Courthouse.
	But I never heard him speak.
	It was his defense counsel that was speaking for him and key witnesses.
	But interesting thing with that trial, bringing up Larry Potts, McVay's handler.
	So if you can imagine, the defense counsel for Terry Nichols calls Larry Potts as a hostile witness, obviously.
	And the federal government, this is not even their venue.
	This is a state trial.
	They have no business being in a state court.
	Stephen Taylor, and I spoke with Judge Taylor after the trial several years, months after, and he said that he was furious.
	It took him three days to cool off because John Ashcroft at the time and Louis Free forbade Larry Potts from showing up in that courtroom.
	And they had no business telling the judge who was going to come in.
	It wasn't their trial.
	It wasn't their venue.
	And the judge really shot off a very terse letter to Ashcroft and the prosecution at the time, it says, you have no business coming and telling who my witness is coming into my courtroom.
	They did not want Larry Potts to get on the stand.
	And he would have had to commit perjury.
	Then that would have really snowballed into a whole different thing.
	The whole narrative would have started unraveling right there.
	And yeah, so even the jury at the state trial saw through.
	They said, no, there's something horribly wrong going on here.
	And they sentenced him to life without a chance of parole.
	And that's where he's serving in Florence, Colorado right now.
	He should have been out.
	At the most, he should have served maybe about two years.
	And he would have been out of prison by now.
	So that's why we want a reinvestigation of this case.
	Way too many loose ends, way too many unanswered questions.
	And of course, when we look at the connections with Merrick Garland and Louis Free and all these other Hillary Clinton and the Clintons and the papers that are there, another very important aspect of this was obviously by doing it on the anniversary of what happened in Waco.
	A big part of this, the obvious thing was that they wanted to shut down the pushback that was building against what had happened with Ruby Ridge and with Waco.
	There was a growing militia movement as people were saying, wait a minute, something is wrong with this government.
	What are they planning to do down the road when you look at what happened with these two things?
	And of course, remember that everybody should remember that Ruby Ridge happened under the George H.W. Bush regime, and the Waco thing happened under the Clinton regime.
	And it was largely the same people.
	Of course, Janet Reno was there at the front, but you still had the same FBI people and so forth from these two different front organizations, Bush and Clinton.
	And so they were all still there.
	And so there was a lot of people that were pushing back against it and saying, you know, what is going on with the federal government?
	And this is a way for them to essentially shut down the building militia movement.
	And people who are questioning all that, because you question all this stuff, now we're going to lump you in with these terrorists who killed, you know, how many people?
	100 and some odd people.
	We're going to taint the entire militia movement with that.
	Speak to that a little bit.
	Okay, so Andreas Strassmeier was a key witness.
	He was actually a running mate, a running buddy with McVay.
	We know at least four months up to before the bombing.
	Strassmeyer is brought in from Germany.
	Oddly enough, and we don't know why, we're still trying to figure out.
	Al Gore asked him to come over from Germany.
	Now, Strassmeier is an interesting character.
	His dad, Goethe Strassmeier, was the chief of staff for Helmut Kohl, who was the head of Germany at the time.
	They wanted Strassmeier, who was a washout from the German, basically the German counterpart to the U.S. Rangers and Special Forces.
	They wanted him to come to the U.S. and infiltrate these quote-unquote Nazi movement groups and militia movements.
	So we know that, in fact, he was working for the government.
	For four years, he was no gainful employment.
	All of his credit card, his hotel bills, everything was being paid.
	And we did have two members of the Craig Roberts had reached out to the Texas militia, the light brigade, they call them.
	They actually use motorcycles to drive around and these motocross bikes.
	They saw him, get this, they saw Strassmeyer letting himself in on the loading dock of the federal courthouse in downtown Fort Worth, Texas, punching the keypad in the wee hours in the morning.
	How the heck would he have access to the back door of the federal courthouse in the wee hours in the morning, knowing the security code?
	And the Texas militia basically within 24 hours says, get the hell out of town or we're not going to guarantee your safety.
	You're going to end up face up in a ditch somewhere.
	And Strassmeyer packed up his stuff and got the hell out.
	Where does he end up?
	Oklahoma.
	In LOM City, which is right on the, not far from the Arkansas-Oklahoma border, south of Tulsa.
	And that's where he's hanging out with McVeigh, with a lot of these malcontents.
	And we found out we're actually with the ATF, the CIA, and the FBI.
	They didn't even know of the interagency.
	So there was basically troph wars, Eagle Wars.
	They weren't communicating with each other.
	Just a perfect storm of complete catastrophe.
	Yeah, you got all these different government agencies, and they're all posing to be terrorists or whatever.
	And yet they're all federal agencies.
	How do we know that happened?
	There's a pilot that worked for the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, their state patrol.
	He's taking an FBI asset over this LOM city, and the pilot says, well, wait a minute.
	I took somebody from the ATF here about two weeks ago.
	FBI had no idea the ATF was there and the CIA.
	That's amazing.
	So that's the involvement with McVay and Strassmeier.
	And so Strassmeier still, as we know, he's still living in Berlin.
	FBI never pursued him.
	Wow.
	It truly is amazing.
	And I go back and I hear these Strassmeyer say these, yeah, these names from the past that start to ring bells.
	And it's so great to have you start to put these things together.
	And it is time to look at this again.
	It's time to look at it again, even if there wasn't going to be a new investigation, but there is going to hopefully be a new investigation.
	Will there be an update to the documentary, presumably, on this?
	Well, at this time, no, David.
	We're going to put our financial resources to the investigation.
	And I want to tip my hat to William Jasper, Jesse Trenadu, Craig Roberts, Charles Key, members of the Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee, two who have since passed away, Javier Heidelberg, all of those people helped us.
	We had 150 volunteers, 25 core groups that helped us put the first film out.
	If, in fact, we get the financial resources, yes, we would do an update.
	But now we're really, we've got to focus, keep our eye on the ball, and make sure this investigation moves forward smoothly.
	Well, good.
	And if you do that, we might have a really interesting update to it if this comes out into a genuine investigation and more of this stuff is released.
	Tell us a little bit more about some of the projects there at FreemindFilms.com.
	Okay, well, the second film, State of Mind Psychology of Control, is the one that you helped us promote.
	That basically covers the waterfront from basically from the day you're born to the day you die, how you're manipulated through education, nutrition, marketing.
	We go into the, we do the deep dives on what happens on a daily basis to you and why certain people think the way they do.
	It's a very academic approach.
	We interview peer-reviewed authors on the subject matter, and we try to, and this is the thing that we really strive for in all three of our films.
	It's not the end-all-be-all, but they're a primer to give you at least the information to decide for yourself.
	There's a lot of smart people out there, David, yourself included and your staff, that can really see through a lot of this, baloney.
	And we just try to present the information for not only the younger generation, but the older generation to say, look, just give me something that's credible, that these professionals are saying, that's been proven through time, that's a consistent pattern of deception.
	We want to be able to recognize that and make decisions of our own.
	And then, of course, the third film was Shadow Ring, which is a microcosm from right after the Spanish-American War through just before 9-11, and how these different events, whether it be the sinking of the Lusitania, what caused World War I, the attack on Pearl Harbor, who were actually the players behind those, and why was there deception?
	And why were we lied to?
	Again, give you the information.
	You decide.
	We're not telling you how to think, but give you the tools to think for yourself.
	Oh, excellent.
	Okay, so Noble Line, State of Mind, Shadow Ring.
	You can find all these at FreemindFilms.com.
	One big favor we do ask, please do watch them on our website.
	We get paid through the ads.
	YouTube and Rumble and all of the other websites have pirated copies.
	We don't get monetized, and they're unauthorized.
	May I give a plug real quick?
	No, absolutely.
	We're trying to raise funds for this investigation.
	Two avenues.
	If you can send a PayPal using the email okctruth at cox.net.
	That's through the PayPal account.
	Or if you want to send a check directly to FreemindFilms, do so at freemindfilms.com or FreemindFilms LLC, P.O. Box 16136, St. Petersburg, Florida, 33733.
	Good.
	It would be greatly appreciated.
	We'll put those in the description for the show.
	hope that this moves forward.
	It's time that we get But we need to get this out to a broader audience.
	And we need to keep at this because they keep getting away with this over and over again.
	And quite frankly, I know you're tired of seeing them get away with it.
	I certainly am tired of seeing them get away with it.
	There needs to be some justice, and hopefully, you know, on this side of eternity, we'll have some justice with this stuff.
	But we never know.
	But we'll keep pushing on it.
	Thank you so much, Chris Emery.
	You've done great work with this, and thank you for sticking with this.
	Again, people can support this research project there.
	We'll give them the PayPal information in the description as well where they can contribute with us.
	And they can find the films.
	If they want to go back and see it, they can go to freemindfilms.com and watch these documentaries there.
	Thank you so much.
	Yes, sir.
	You're very welcome.
	Thank you, David.
	Thank you, everyone.
	Thank you for joining us.
	Have a good day.

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