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May 7, 2025 - The David Knight Show
46:14
New Investigation into the Oklahoma City 1995 Bombing Cover-Up
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Time Text
I was sitting at my desk there on the eighth floor.
I felt the building start shaking.
Lights went out.
Debris started falling on my desk.
Something hit me in the back of the head and knocked me out before the truck bomb went off.
What that tells you is that there were other explosive devices in the building that actually brought the building down.
It's an earthquake.
Everybody gets down underneath on the floor.
And I had sat there and I thought, no, it doesn't feel like an earthquake.
Seven or eight seconds later, I felt this explosion.
Only an imbecile would look at that damage pattern and not understand that it couldn't have been made by a truck bomb.
Because a truck bomb is going to release.
It's energy simultaneously in every direction.
The record clearly shows that Dr. Jolly and West consulted Timothy McVeigh's defense team.
Dr. West had previously been psychiatrist and consulted for Patty Hearst, Saran Saran, and Jack Ruby.
A noble lie, Oklahoma City, 1995, will change forever the way you look at the true nature of terrorism.
The grand jury did not want to hear anything I had to say.
The decision was made not to pursue any more of those individuals.
The greatest manhook there's ever been.
Do you remember the Whitewater investigation in Arkansas?
All the paperwork was stored in the Murr Belt.
Hey, somebody knew about a prior bomb threat.
Every bit of important evidence has brought us to the Oklahoma City bombing.
Joining us now is Chris Emery of freemindfilms.com, and we wanted to talk to him about an update to the Oklahoma City bombing.
A very important film was done.
I guess it's now the first one was done in 2011.
They've done some updates to it.
The most recent one was 2015.
That was the 20th anniversary.
We've just hit the 30th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing.
And there is new information, and they're talking about doing a new investigation.
We're going to get that information from Chris Emery of freemindfilms.com.
Thank you for joining us, Chris.
David, thank you so much.
It's great to be talking to you again.
It's been a while.
Yeah, it has.
It has.
I remember talking about this so many times.
Very important film.
And we played the trailer just before the interview so people can get a sense of it.
There's so many different issues with what happened with Oklahoma City.
And it, of course, reeked from the very beginning.
Part of a long chain of...
Questionable events for many of us, going back to Waco and Ruby Ridge.
And then this, I think that, you know, obviously it was connected, and I think it was connected by the government to shut that investigation down.
But then we have the other events that were connected.
We had 9-11, dark winter, the pandemic, all these different types of things.
Once people realize with any of these that we have been lied to and deceived and they start to see how this agenda kind of lines up through these different things, then that is when the lights come on and people start to ask some real questions.
Now people are starting to ask questions there in Florida.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Yes, well, ever since the new Trump administration was sworn in, we've had a lot of information, of course, with the NIH, with the FBI.
There's fresh blood, and as one of my colleagues in Congress said, well, we've got several fresh set of eyes on this thing, and they want to basically start from scratch.
And they know that there was a lot of malfeasance going on.
Merrick Garland, of course, the former U.S. Attorney General, he was appointed as a special U.S. prosecutor to head up the Oklahoma City investigation within about a week after the bombing happened in April of 1995.
We found out, as a film crew, in October of 2003, I had a meeting with Stephen Jones' Who was McVeigh's lead defense counsel.
I had a meeting at his office in Edith, Oklahoma.
And he heard through the grapevine that our crew really wanted to do a great job, a very professional job, to strip down to the bare bones, find out what really happened, put the official narrative under magnifying glass.
And after about 10 minutes in the film, we tore that apart and started all over again.
But to back up a second, after about a three-hour meeting I had with him at his office, In North Central Oklahoma, he said that he was going to give us full and unfettered access to 142 boxes of legal documents that he had at a repository in Austin, Texas.
And it was at the law library adjacent to the LBJ Presidential Library north of UT campus.
And he said that Merrick Carlin, three and a half months...
Basically, he strongly urged and pleaded with the trial judge, Richard P. Mache, who presided over both the Nichols and the McVeigh trial.
He wanted that information in those boxes sealed for seven years.
So what we were able to gain, over 90% of that information, including relevant exculpatory evidence that would have proven Nichols was completely innocent, and McVeigh was set up.
We found out subsequently, when we went through that, that the jury in both trials never saw that information.
We literally opened a vault of incredible information.
So, that information is relevant to a reinvestigation, and there are members of Congress, surprisingly, on both sides of the aisle that want to take a look at this and say, hey, let's start over, and we're very cautiously optimistic.
We understand that there may be some folks that may want an underhanded approach, but the people that we talked to said, no, we really want to do a good job on this.
And that's in line with Tulsi Gabbard, with RFK, with Kash Patel, and they're willing to admit, hey, there is information on the RFK case, the JFK, Martin Luther King.
So this is basically in lockstep with that, and we've got a very important meeting tomorrow morning, actually.
With some key researchers in the case, as well as a member of Congress that We look at
some of the stuff like...
You know, the Epstein files.
I'm kind of suspicious about the fact that with Trump's connections with it, that they would ever release anything about that.
And, you know, even when you go back to the JFK files, if anybody ever put anything in there that was going to be incriminating, they would have gotten rid of that a long time ago.
So I've been really skeptical and dubious about those.
But this, because of the connections of Merrick Garland, who is...
Well, what we found out, we actually had a source in Little Rock, Arkansas.
This is a gentleman that served a dual role with the Secret Service and the ATF.
And he said that there were documents in the building that were going to be brought forward to indict both Bill and Hillary on corruption and Munderlander charges.
Through the Whitewater case.
Now, as a film crew, we weren't able to actually see any of those documents, but this trusted source said yes.
The documents were in the building.
And here's, it's very, you know, you don't have to get too complicated to really go through the thread of history here.
And I said, why would they be stored in the Murrah building in downtown Oklahoma City?
He says, because there was an arcane rule in Congress.
If you're going to indict a sitting president, It cannot be held in the federal courthouse in the home state.
And by geographic default, Oklahoma City was the closest federal courthouse to the one in Little Rock.
New Orleans was too far away, St. Louis, Dallas.
So they literally brought them to Oklahoma City and stored them in the AP Murrah Federal Building.
And our best guess is that they were on the seventh floor in the DEA safe room, which was actually built into the...
The building long after the grand opening.
The DEA had a custom safe room there, and we know of other information that was stored there, as well as contraband and money for a big drug case that was due to go to court in May of that year.
So there was a lot of concentric circles, a lot of dual purposes, basically to have the destruction of that building and the documents that would have...
By the end of 1995, Bill and Hillary Clinton would have been finished.
They probably would have been in prison.
Wow.
So the stakes were very, very high.
Wow.
And as you know, the Clintons are as corrupt as it is long, and they fight tooth and nail to stay in power.
So this would have taken them down.
Yeah.
Interesting.
My son showed me a screen clip, and it looks like it's something that could actually, I didn't verify if it was real or not, but it said something about all the suicides around the Clintons.
And it was asked an AI chat program about it, and it started with listing several of them.
It got to Jeffrey Epstein, and it goes, and it stops, and it goes, error occurred.
I don't know if that was real or not, or if that was something Photoshopped.
But, you know, that's kind of where we have been with all of this stuff.
And when you look at the fact, even more so than Hillary, Merrick Garland, this would align, if they could find the truth on him, if there's some kind of a cover-up, this would perfectly align with Trump's desire to get vengeance.
So that could actually work in our favor to try to get some truth out of this thing.
Now, one of the things, and you mentioned it even in the trailer that I played before the interview, The fact that, and I remember this from the New American, the John Birch Society.
They had a former demolitions general.
And he talked about the fact that if you look at the blast pattern, it was not a single-point source.
So it was not coming from a car.
And in the trailer, you've got somebody saying, no, I was there.
There was two explosions.
One of them knocked me down, then there was another explosion.
So this wasn't a single-point source.
Multiple indications of that.
Many, many things about it that were very suspicious.
But talk a little bit about that aspect of it.
Well, actually, the person you're referring to is probably General Benton Parton, and I actually met with him.
This was two weeks before I met with McVeigh's defense counsel.
I was at General Parton's home in Alexandria, Virginia.
We had just finished having a steak dinner at Fort Belvoir, and he was at the officer's club.
We drove back to his house, and we sat up to almost 3 o 'clock in the morning, and I was just looking at the documents I have.
It's three pages of legal pad.
He said that if you had ANFO in a 52-foot trailer in pristine lab conditions, obviously, which didn't exist that day, you know, it was 42-mile-an-hour headwinds, it was about 47 degrees.
And the humidity was pretty high.
He said, even if you had perfect lab conditions, it still wouldn't have done the damage it did to that building, which completely refutes the ANFO narrative.
So that's just cock and bull.
That's like Acme bomb in a Roadrunner cartoon.
It's ridiculous.
But what he said was that, yes, there were actually 23 devices in the building, and we corroborated this from the Oklahoma County Bomb Squad, a medic that came forward and helped us out that was on the squad that morning.
And reported to the scene within about 10 minutes after the blast.
They know what to look for.
There was odor of C4 and cordite in the air, which he remembered as this source remembered from Vietnam when he served there.
It was unbelievable.
Yeah, you don't forget that.
You don't forget that.
I mean, since the smell is really hardwired into your memory, and I imagine if last time you smelled that stuff, you were in Vietnam under fire or something, that's going to be an immediate connection to you, right?
Well, here's the key.
Even on the very first helicopter footage that you saw the bombing, a third of the building was launched a good block and a half to the north of where it stood.
It looked like an alien craft just sucked it and displaced it everywhere.
But the key is, David, when you look at that footage that was shot within about 20 minutes after the bombing, there was no fires, there was no flames in the building.
That, again, refutes the majority of the damage being done by ANFL.
Because we have a case, we went and looked, we had to go retro to look at other cases that ANFL was used.
In August of 1970, the Army Math Research Building on the campus of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
There was an info used, a much smaller quantity than was alleged in the truck, and there were flames coming out of the building.
It was on fire.
I interviewed the police chief at the time that had the archives from that case, and he said, yeah, they had not only the Madison Police Department, but the UW Fire Department and the city and the county respond.
And they had to bring in, here's another key, David, 22 people from that case had to be taken to the hospital because they were buckling over.
Vomiting from the ANFO, the fumes.
That never happened in Oklahoma City.
Why?
Because Terry Icky, who we featured in the film, went in literally within about 12 minutes after the blast was pulling people out.
He never got violently sick.
So the whole narrative of ANFO is completely wiped out.
Once you look at it in the prior cases and what happened, just medical treatment of the people rushing in.
None of the search and rescue, none of the first responders.
None of the victims had survived.
And of course, Teriyaki, none of them started vomiting from antho fumes.
So that means that there was dry ordnance that was used, the chordite and explosives that were set on the columns between floors two and three, between the drop ceiling and the next concrete slab.
There was about three feet.
They were set hidden above the drop ceiling, and there were electronic mercury switches that were used to set those off.
Three of them had gone off.
20 of them were rendered inert.
And they were set to go off within 10 minutes of the initial blast to kill the first responders, search and rescue, and people coming in.
But luckily, that second phase of the bombing, the ordnance never went off.
We would have had more devastation.
It would have been horrendous.
And so that's how you know so much detail about these pre-placed explosives, is because they didn't detonate, right?
Correct.
And the bomb squad found them.
Yeah, wow.
That's amazing.
And so, you know, when we look at this, if people had paid attention to your documentary, if they'd paid attention to what was going on...
Perhaps we would not have had a follow-up where we've got three buildings collapsed in the footprint with two planes, only two of them being hit by a plane and that type of thing.
If people were aware, wait a minute, they have blown up buildings in the past and given us a completely different narrative about how that happened, perhaps that would wake up people as well.
Let's talk a little bit about, because Timothy McVeigh was the biggest question mark that I had.
Why would he Assume this role and push on this to essentially try to make himself a hero.
What was going on with that?
What was his role on that?
What we found out in those records, and he even told his sister this, that he was actually a professional assassin and a gunrunner for the CIA in the months leading up to the bombing.
We know definitively from September of 1994 through the morning of the bombing, he was working with at least seven guys in Oklahoma City.
We know the motel where they stayed at.
We saw the rooming list from the owner of the motel.
But the point is that the bombing was actually, and a lot of people don't know this, McVeigh was the understanding that was going to happen at 9 o 'clock the night before, 12 hours earlier, with no casualties.
There was only one security guard that actually, his security beat was four blocks between the federal courthouse, the federal building, the mayoral building, and then the apartment complex and another building.
And they timed it.
They literally cased this out for a week before to figure out when he was going to be in the building and when he was not.
And they wanted to blow it up when he wasn't there.
They don't want any body count.
Lo and behold, we have Louis Free, the director of the FBI.
His number two in command, Larry Potts, was McVeigh's handler.
Now let that soak in for about five seconds.
McVeigh had a handler from the FBI that reported directly to Louis Free, who was a head of the FBI.
We had Robert Mueller help cover up the case, worked in tandem, glove in hand with Merrick Garland.
So these guys rear their ugly heads later on.
Robert Mueller doing an independent investigation of the Russia hunks.
And when I found that out, I thought...
And also involved with 9-11 as well.
Yes, absolutely.
For the 9-11 stuff.
It's all the usual suspects, isn't it?
Yeah.
Grant, get this.
Now, we had the Oklahoma County District Attorney's Office.
A speakerphone meeting within four days after the bombing.
They're literally giving the local authorities and the DA's office marching orders on how the Oklahoma City case was going to be investigated.
Who they were going after, selective prosecution, who they were going to let go, because there were U.S. government assets that were helping with that.
It wasn't supposed to go live, David.
But Larry Potts says, no, we want a body count.
And McVeigh said, oh, hell no.
I'm a professional assassin and a drug smuggler.
I'm not killing children.
Well, he had him over the barrel and several other charges.
And we got that directly from Terry Nichols, who got it from McVeigh.
I don't know why McVeigh would make that up.
He's a professional soldier.
He's a professional assassin.
You don't go after innocents like that.
But he was ordered by Larry Potts to make sure there was a body count.
Hence what unfolded on the morning of April 19. So that's it in a nutshell there.
And this information is going to come out.
Hopefully we have the right people with the fortitude.
And the mental acuity and the moral fortitude to say, hey, we need to tell the people of Oklahoma, of the United States, and of the world what really happened that morning.
Why the 168 people, including three unborn children, were brutally murdered that morning.
It's inexcusable.
Now, on the 30th anniversary, one of the reasons this came up to me, I think, was because we talked about...
Nichols' lawyer, Trinidue, and of course he's got a website set up to honor his brother that he believes was involved and murdered and all of that, jessetrinidue.com.
And he was talking about some new evidence as well.
Are you connected in any way with him in this?
I haven't.
I've tried to reach out to Jesse.
We've lost touch over the years, but we did keep in touch for about almost three years consistently.
There was an in-camera interview that we conducted from Oklahoma City through a video service.
Oddly enough, my ex-roommate up there applied for a job the month before the bombing, and he was eyewitness and earwitness to all of the monitors and cameras that were working just fine.
So the federal government, in Jesse's case, said, hey, they didn't exist.
Well, we have a key witness that applied for a job that took the tour of the building a month before the bombing.
That was, I believe, on the Easter.
Sunday, we had a long talk with Jesse, and about a month later, I want to say 2012-2013 is when that testimony was, and the federal prosecutor and head of the team in Salt Lake City going against Jesse was furious that this witness came up.
So they tried to basically impugn his reputation and his expertise on cameras.
That was their easy way of backsliding out of it all, but it was irrefutable.
So that was, yeah, we've worked with Jesse on that.
We've shared other intel.
And I think as we make progress on there, we definitely want to reach out to Jesse and have him be part of this.
Now, Trinity was the lawyer for Terry Nichols.
And, you know, I think it's kind of interesting with all the back and forth that's going on between 60 Minutes and Trump.
You know, 60 Minutes is presented as the impeccable source of integrity and all the rest of the stuff.
But Trinity came out and said, well...
We had an interview that was scheduled with Terry Nichols.
They got a call and they shut it down, which is also very interesting.
That's a lot, doesn't it?
In terms of the massive scope, as you pointed out, the FBI, the CIA was also involved.
Now, of course, you mentioned that Louis Freeh and his number two guy was the handler for Timothy McVeigh.
You mentioned that he's also had CIA connections in it.
So we see all of the FBI, the CIA, the intelligence agencies that are there.
And I'm sure that 60 Minutes is just another manifestation or tentacle, I guess, of the Operation Mockingbird stuff.
They'll do what they're told.
They'll do some investigations of maybe corporations or individuals, but they'll do what they're told when it comes to the government, I guess, right?
Let me clarify what happened with 60 Minutes, if you have a minute.
Sure.
So, Ed Bradley, rest his soul, he was actually a very good reporter, and his team sent notice, written notice, and a set of questions to Terry Nichols to the Florence, Colorado, Superbacks.
The staff that received the mail never passed it on to Terry Nichols.
So literally, Ed Bradley and his team show up at the prison ready to do the interview.
Nichols has no clue.
There was no summons to bring him down from the cell block.
That's where it went cold, right there.
And Bradley was not very happy about that.
They flew out there and were ready to go.
Lights, camera, everything ready to go.
Nichols had no clue.
And they sent this ahead of time.
The way Jesse got on there, from the best of my understanding, and Jesse could correct me, is that he was actually the legal counsel after the federal trial and the state of Oklahoma versus Terry Lynn Nichols trial.
So he was on a list of attorneys that were able to visit Terry.
After the debacle with 60 Minutes, John Ashcroft pretty much put a lid on that.
He said, nobody's going to be talking to Nichols about this case ever.
Why the hell would John Ashcroft step forward?
Yeah.
And then, of course, now he's the one that succeeded him years on.
Merrick Garland was in lockstep with all of that.
So that's why there is a need to bring this information out.
There's not a week that goes by that I don't think about evidence.
They either come up through an email or a friend contacting me.
And they say, no, there's no way in hell I'm going to my...
My grave, not least, trying to do a decent job of getting this information out.
Thank God we still have that core group that helped us with our film.
The researchers, some of them are still alive, including Jesse, Charles Key, Craig Roberts.
And I got a tip hat to your former boss, Alex Jones, and his staff for helping us with that.
So we're going to stick at this as long as we can.
These people never know what happened.
And why it happened.
You know, when you're talking about being a bipartisan thing, you know, again, John Ashcroft, with the Republican administration, is shutting this stuff down as well.
Because, again, you know, it's my personal opinion that the political parties are just kind of a front for the real government, which is going to be the people like the FBI, the CIA, and these other usual suspects that are there.
So, of course, it's going to be a bipartisan issue there.
But, you know, getting back to McVeigh, you know, one of the things about it, okay, so he's there, and he was going to set this thing up as, you know, blow this building when there weren't people there.
They changed it.
They've kind of got him over a barrel.
Why did he try to portray the defiant hero in all this?
What do you think was up about that?
You know what, David, and that's a very good question, because we know from key witnesses, let me, this is...
Glove in hand with what you just asked.
We actually know there were two teams working on this.
There was the McVeigh that was shot by Charlie Hanger within, I believe, an hour and ten minutes after the bombing or less than that.
Then there's the McVeigh that was actually downtown hanging out right after the bombing.
A lookalike.
So we don't know the McVeigh that was interviewed by 60 Minutes.
Or was, you know, had his whole narrative.
We don't know if that's the one that actually committed the case or committed the crime.
So that's a whole level of confusion right there that we're still trying to sort through.
And how do we know?
Because Jermaine Johnson, who was a survivor of the bombing, who actually, interestingly enough, backed out of an interview with our film crew two hours before we were going to show up at her front door.
I don't know who gave her the call or put the pressure on, but if you could picture this, David.
The bombing happens.
Jermaine Johnson, her hair is all over the place.
There's concrete dust and everything.
She literally came within an inch of her life.
Several of her friends were killed in the bombing.
Walks six blocks southeast of the crime scene.
McVeigh is leaning against the hood of his yellow Mercury marquee with another guy.
They're both looking toward the bomb site.
Jermaine Johnson has no idea, obviously, who he is.
Nobody knew until the next day when his face was all over the TV.
And this individual looks just like McVeigh, asked her, were there any people killed?
And she said, yeah, several of my friends were.
She's still in shock, figuring out what the hell just happened.
So that's within, she said, about 10 to 12 minutes after the bombing.
Who's the McVeigh that stopped by?
Charlie Hanger.
The state trooper, there was his day off, he was out of his precinct.
He was given orders to drive up that stretch of I-35, just south of Perry, Oklahoma, not far from the Kansas border.
We had an expert at the Oklahoma DOT Department of Transportation say there's no way that that McVeigh that Jermaine Johnson saw and the one that Charlie Hanger could have been the same one.
That one that Jermaine Johnson saw would have had to been traveling at, he said, in excess of 135 miles an hour, no stoplights.
Yeah, I mean, just from point A to point B, it would have been impossible.
So we knew right there that there was two teams working.
And Jermaine Johnson said, yeah, that looked just like the McVeigh on TV the next day.
That information was never brought out, and that's why Merrick Garland was adamant about quashing a lot of the evidence.
It would have really thrown confusion and suspect credibility on the prosecution case against McVeigh.
It's like, all right, who are these two?
Who did Charlie Hanger stop?
And who was the one that Jermaine Johnson was talking to?
But to your point is that, yes, he was working for the CIA.
Mayor Crowley did not want that to come out, and that was part of the records that we saw.
We saw his pay grade, how his bills were getting paid, the fact that he had a learjet at his access for almost two and a half years before the bombing.
He would go out and do what he needed to do, come home, take his dry cleaning, make dinner, get up the next morning, go do what else he had to do.
It was unbelievable.
What he was getting paid was absolutely insane.
Most of it was cash.
So, there's a possibility in your mind that there was one public McVeigh who's making all these radical statements about Invictus and all the rest of the stuff, you know?
My head is bloody but unbowed.
And then there was another one that they jailed and executed.
Is that what you're saying then, perhaps?
Well, here again, they did jail this individual.
We don't know if he even died.
Oh, that's true.
W. Craig Roberts and I have been on joint interviews several times.
If people ask us, do you think he's dead?
Without skipping a beat, we said, no, I don't think he's dead.
And a retired CIA asset that helped us with investigating some of the financial end of this said, look, that would really throw rents in the works to recruit for the CIA when you're starting to kill off your assets like that.
That's completely against their mode of operation.
Unless there's treason or, you know, they're working for an enemy, then that's a whole different deal.
Well, now, when Merrick Garland wanted to quash information, I think, was that about the time that, you know, Hoppy Heidelberg, who is a part of the original grand jury, and he's asking some questions and stuff like that, was it, and he got out of the grand jury, and he convenes the citizens' grand jury to try to continue to investigate.
Was that kind of in response to Merrick Garland quashing information?
Okay, so what you're referring to is two different things, which is good.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Hoppe was a member of the grand jury.
He was actually dismissed by Judge David Russell, who presided over selecting defense counsel and so forth.
And Hoppe had 10 questions for him.
We want relevant evidence.
We want physical evidence.
We want experts.
We're entitled to this grand jury.
The judge never responded to any of those.
He summarily dismissed him from the jury without cause and threatened to have him.
Yeah, it was unbelievable.
So what Charles Key, the state representative...
And after that, convened a citizen's grand jury through his power and his authority as an Oklahoma state representative at the time.
So there were two things going on at once.
But yes, to answer your question, Merrick Garland was also attempting to quash that exculpatory evidence to show McVeigh and Nichols.
Nichols was completely innocent.
He was set up.
He was framed.
And even the Inspector General's Office report said, yeah, the evidence was basically slanted to incriminate both defendants, not only Nichols but McVeigh.
So there was a lot of things going on at once, and Merrick Garland was running to keep up with himself just to make sure that that evidence would never come out.
And neither of the juries in both federal trials ever saw that evidence, the exculpatory evidence.
Wow.
Now, did Hoppy Heidelberg get involved with that citizen's grand jury that was convened by the representative?
No, no, sir.
That was separate.
But I do want to share something with you, and rest his soul, Hoppy passed away.
About a year after our film, seven months after the film was released, he passed on.
In fact, it was an interview with Infowars that he made the announcement that he had the cancer.
And I was sitting right next to him in our studio in Oklahoma City, and I knew about it when I picked him up from his ranch that morning.
We had about a 40-minute drive to the studio, and he told me everything.
And he made the announcement to Alex.
Alex was shell-shocked.
It was a hell of an interview for almost two hours on Infowars.
That's a name that always sticks with you.
It's phenomenal.
Hoppy Heidelberg.
That's one of the key things.
It's been a while.
Things are a little bit foggy for me because it's been a while since I've seen your documentary and looked into this, but that name always pops to the front.
A very unusual name.
An unusual guy, too.
If only we had more people like him.
One more relevant point with Hoppy, David.
And I moved to Oklahoma City in January of '03.
In late February, I drove down to his ranch, first time I met him.
And we sat at his kitchen table and shared a pot of coffee for about three hours.
And he told me toward the end, he says, "Look, I knew all of the information that it clearly showed other people were involved.
We wanted that brought to the grand jury, and the judge wouldn't allow it." He got a visit from an attorney that he later figured out.
Hoppy's a member of MEDSA.
He's pretty smart.
This guy, he's nobody's fool.
And this particular attorney that showed up was very professional.
Didn't get in his face, but he said, we're at the point now, Mr. Heidelberg, where you're going to have to back off and stop asking questions.
We know where your grandchildren live.
We know where your daughters and your children work in the banks.
He's showing him literally hoppy pictures of where the faces of employment are.
And he said, if you don't back off, I can't guarantee their safety anymore.
It was basically a very...
He's an overt threat to say, back the F off or things are going to happen that's going to be very damaging to your family physically and mentally and financially.
And he had no choice.
So he goes from being a multi-million dollar horse breeder out of Blanchard, Oklahoma, 42 miles west of downtown Oklahoma City, to driving a school bus and hauling fuel oil.
All of his clients basically just said, we don't want to talk to you anymore.
You're crossing the line here.
Luckily, his wife had gainful employment.
They were able to still keep the bills paid, but he went from a multimillionaire to basically nothing.
They stripped his gainful employment right out from under him and threatened his family.
Yeah, it's not unusual, I guess, for us to see this happening with social media, with other venues as well.
And, of course, recently I played Jenny McCarthy, talking about the fact that she was threatened just because she was talking about the vaccine stuff.
They threatened her, threatened her family, and messed with her career.
So it is truly amazing.
the corrupt system and the intimidation that is there.
But, you know, when we look at this as we go into the future and – It is hopeful that we might be able to get something again.
There's a lot of new investigation opening this up and perhaps getting to some additional information, but I would recommend to everybody, I'm going to go back and refresh my memory on this as well, because it truly is a fascinating story,
and one that is indicative of our times and of our government as well but before we end uh terry nichols tell us a bit about terry now you know timothy mcveigh very very strange character the connections that he had with cia the fbi the rest of this uh terry nichols is he um just kind of a patsy that was brought in by mcveigh uh well they they served together at fort riley in kansas they did not serve together in iraq uh terry was stateside i believe when tim was serving overseas
But, yes, he was brought in as a patsy.
There were two trials that went on with Terry.
It was the federal trial.
They were indicted under eight counts of murder because there was eight federal employees killed that morning.
Then the state of Oklahoma versus Terry Lynn Nichols, there was 160 counts of murder because they were non-federal employees and civilians from the state of Oklahoma.
And that was the state trial.
There was no state trial for McVeigh because, quote-unquote, he was killed under lethal injection.
Again, we don't know.
That was even true.
Terry had a very, how do we say this, arrested development personality.
He had the mental and the intellectual acuity of an eighth grader.
So he was very easy to manipulate.
Never heard him in the seven days that I was at the state trial, off and on, driving back and forth from Oklahoma City to McAllister, Oklahoma.
It was at the Pittsburgh County Courthouse.
But I never heard him speak.
It was his defense counsel that was speaking for him and key witnesses.
Interesting thing with that trial, bringing up Larry Potts, McVeigh's handler.
So if you can imagine, the defense counsel for Terry Nichols calls Larry Potts as a hostile witness, obviously.
And the federal government, this is not even their venue.
This is a state trial.
They have no business being in a state court.
Stephen Taylor, and I spoke with Judge Taylor after the trial several months after, and he said that he was furious.
It took him three days to cool off because John Ashcroft at the time and Louis Free forbade Larry Potts from showing up in that courtroom.
And they had no business telling the judge who was going to come in.
It wasn't their trial.
It wasn't their venue.
And the judge really shot off a very terse letter to Ashcroft and the prosecution at the time.
He says, you have no business coming and telling my witnesses coming in of our courtroom.
They did not want Larry Potts to get on the stand.
And he would have had to commit perjury.
Then that would have really snowballed into a whole different thing.
The whole narrative would have started unraveling right there.
And even the jury at the state trial saw through and they said, no, there's something horribly wrong going on here.
And they sentenced him to life without a chance of parole.
And that's where he's serving in Florence, Colorado right now.
He should have been out.
At the most, he should have served maybe about two years.
And he would have been out of prison by now.
Wow.
So that's why we want a reinvestigation of this case.
Way too many loose ends, way too many unanswered questions.
And of course, when we look at the connections with Merrick Garland and Louis Freeh and all these other people, Hillary Clinton and the Clintons and the papers that are there, another very important aspect of this was obviously by doing it on the anniversary of what happened in Waco.
A big part of this, the obvious thing, was that they wanted to shut down the pushback that was building against what had happened with Ruby Ridge and with Waco.
There was a growing militia movement.
As people were saying, wait a minute, something is wrong with this government.
What are they planning to do down the road when you look at what happened with these two things?
And of course...
Remember that everybody should remember that Ruby Ridge happened under the George H.W. Bush regime, and the Waco thing happened under the Clinton regime.
And it was largely the same people.
Of course, Janet Reno was there at the front, but you still had the same FBI people and so forth from these two different front organizations, Bush and Clinton.
And so they were all still there.
And so there was a lot of people that were pushing back against it and saying, you know, what is going on with the federal government?
And this is a way for them to essentially shut down the building militia movement and people who are questioning all that.
Could you question all this stuff?
Now we're going to lump you in with these terrorists who killed, you know, how many people?
A hundred and some odd people.
We're going to taint the entire militia movement with that.
Speak to that a little bit.
Okay, so Andreas Strassmeier was a key witness.
He was actually a running buddy with McVeigh.
We know at least four months up to before the bombing.
Strassmeyer is brought in from Germany.
Oddly enough, and we don't know why, we're still trying to figure out, Al Gore asked him to come over from Germany.
Now, Strassmeyer is an interesting character.
His dad, Gunter Strassmeyer, was the chief of staff for Helmut Kohl, who was the head of Germany at the time.
They wanted Strassmeyer, who was a washout from the German, basically the German counterpart to the U.S. Rangers and Special Forces.
They wanted him to come to the U.S. and infiltrate these quote-unquote Nazi movement groups and militia movements.
So we know that, in fact, he was working for the government for four years.
He was no gainful employment.
All of his credit cards, his hotel bills, everything was being paid.
And we did have two members of the...
Craig Roberts had reached out to the Texas militia, the Light Brigade, they called them.
They actually used motorcycles to drive around and these motocross bikes.
They saw, get this, they saw Strassmeyer letting himself in on the loading dock of the federal courthouse in downtown Fort Worth, Texas, punching the keypad in the wee hours in the morning.
How the heck would he have access to the back door of the federal courthouse in the wee hours in the morning, knowing the security code?
And the Texas militia basically within 24 hours says, get the hell out of town or we're not going to guarantee your safety.
You're going to end up facing up in a ditch somewhere.
And Strassmeyer packed up his stuff and got the hell out.
Where does he end up?
Oklahoma.
And LOM City, which is not far from the Arkansas-Oklahoma border, south of Tulsa.
And that's where he's hanging out with McVeigh, with a lot of these malcontents.
We found out we're actually with the ATF, the CIA, and the FBI.
They didn't even know of the interagency.
So there was basically turf wars, eagle wars.
They weren't communicating with each other.
Just a...
A perfect storm of complete catastrophe.
Yeah, you've got all these different government agencies, and they're all posing to be terrorists or whatever, and yet they're all federal agencies.
How do we know that happened?
There's a pilot that worked for the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, their state patrol.
He's taking an FBI asset over this LOM city, and the pilot says, well, wait a minute.
I took somebody from the ATF here about two weeks ago.
FBI had no idea the ATF was there and the CIA.
That's amazing.
So that's the involvement with McVeigh and Strasmeyer.
So Strasmeyer, as we know, is still living in Berlin.
FBI never pursued him.
Wow.
It truly is amazing.
And I go back and I hear these, you know, Strasmeyer, these names from the past that start to ring bells.
And it's so great to have you start to put these things together.
And it is time to look at this again.
It's time to look at it again, even if there wasn't going to be a new investigation, but there is going to hopefully be a new investigation.
Will there be an update to the documentary, presumably, on this?
Well, at this time, no, David.
We're going to put our financial resources to the investigation.
And I want to tip my hat to William Jasper, Jesse Trinidue, Craig Roberts, Charles Key, members of the Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee, two who have since passed away.
Hoppy Heidelberg.
All of those people helped us.
We had 150 volunteers, a 25 core group that helped us put the first film out.
If, in fact, we get the financial resources, yes, we would do an update.
But now we've got to focus, keep our eye on the ball, and make sure this investigation moves forward smoothly.
Well, good.
And if you do that, we might have a really interesting update to it.
Oh, yeah.
If this comes out into a genuine investigation and more of this stuff is released.
Tell us a little bit more about some of the projects there at freemindfilms.com.
Okay.
Well, the second film, State of Minds at College of Control, is the one that you helped us promote.
That basically covers the waterfront from basically from the day you're born until the day you die, how you're manipulated through education, nutrition, marketing.
We go into the, do the deep dives on what happens on a daily basis to you and why certain people think the way they do.
It's a very academic approach.
We interview peer-reviewed authors on the subject matter, and we try to, and this is the thing that we really strive for in all three of our films.
It's not the end-all, be-all, but they're a primer to give you at least the information to decide for yourself.
There's a lot of smart people out there, David, yourself included in your staff, um, that can really see through a lot of this baloney.
And we just try to present the information for not only the younger generation, but the older generation to say, look, um, Mm-hmm.
saying that's been proven, you know, through time, that's consistent pattern of deception, we want to be able to be able to recognize that and make decisions of our own.
And then of course, the third film was Shadow Ring, which is a microcosm from Right after the Spanish-American War through just before 9 /11 and how these different events, whether it be the Cinque de Lusitania, what caused World War I, the attack on Pearl Harbor, who were actually the players behind those?
And why was there deception?
And why were we lied to?
Again, give you the information.
You decide.
We're not telling you how to think, but give you the tools to think for yourself.
Excellent.
Okay, so Noble Lie, State of Mind, Shadow Ring, you can find all these at freemindfilms.com.
One big favor we do ask, please do watch them on our website.
We get paid through the ads.
YouTube and Rumble and all of the other websites have pirated copies.
We don't get monetized and they're unauthorized.
May I give a plug real quick?
Absolutely.
We're trying to raise funds for this investigation.
Two avenues, if you can send to PayPal using the email OKCTruth at Cox.net.
That's through the PayPal account.
Or if you want to send a check directly to Freemind Films, do so at freemindfilms.com.
Or Freemind Films, LLC, PO Box 16136, St. Petersburg, Florida, 307.
It would be greatly appreciated.
We'll put those in the description for the show, and yeah, hope that this moves forward.
It's time that we get...
Now, you've uncovered a lot of truth in this stuff, and it should be pretty...
Pretty clear for people.
But we need to get this out to a broader audience, and we need to keep at this because they keep getting away with this over and over again.
And quite frankly, I know you're tired of seeing them get away with it.
I certainly am tired of seeing them get away with it.
There needs to be some justice, and hopefully, you know, on this side of eternity, we'll...
We'll have some justice with this stuff.
But we never know.
But we'll keep pushing on it.
Thank you so much, Chris Emery.
You've done great work with us.
And thank you for sticking with us.
Again, people can support this research project there.
We'll give them the PayPal information in the description as well where they can contribute with us.
And they can find the films if they want to go back and see it.
They can go to freemindfilms.com and watch these documentaries.
Thank you so much.
Yes, sir.
You're very welcome.
Thank you, David.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you for joining us.
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