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Dec. 3, 2024 - The David Knight Show

03:16:42

The David Knight Show -12/3/2024

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	Thank you.
	All right, welcome back, and joining us now is Lee Brown.
	She put together a relief organization that is still going on and as she points out, this is not over yet.
	People's attention span is very short and they move on to the next story or the next hurricane or whatever, right?
	But this is still going on and it's going to go on for a long time.
	And so we need to keep people's attention focused on this and fight against that.
	And there's also a concerted effort to keep this quiet.
	I want to begin by telling you where you can go.
	The official donation page is on Give, Send, Go, and it is at...
	We love WNC for Western North Carolina.
	We love WNC. That's on Give, Send, Go.
	We'll give that at the end of the broadcast as well.
	But thank you for joining us, Lee Brown.
	Thank you very much for coming on.
	Well, thank you for having me.
	It's an honor to be on your show.
	Well, thank you.
	Let's talk about what is going on and the ongoing need here, but I think a lot of people are just curious as to what it looks like on the ground, but maybe we could start with how this all began and how you got involved in this.
	What was it like, what you saw, being there on the spot?
	Well, just to be very clear, I'm located about an hour outside of the impact zone, but being a native North Carolinian and having a lot of friends and family in the affected area, it hit home for me.
	And so when the storm hit and we're watching the flooding and the very early coverage, which there was a little coverage at the beginning, I could see where this was headed and I have helped with natural disasters in the past because North Carolina does happen to get hurricanes on a regular basis and being in real estate, I think real estate agents often don't get the credit they're due for the way realtors just love to dig in and help their communities.
	Well, my husband and I celebrated our wedding anniversary on September 27th, and this is the third year that we've spent our anniversary doing relief efforts, so I don't know how we got lucky like that, but I knew it was coming.
	I told my husband, I said, well, let's load the real estate company moving truck up, and we'll let our clients bring donations, and we'll be prepared to help, not knowing how bad it was going to be, but knowing there was going to be a need.
	So I put the word out that we would let people come help us fill the truck up.
	And then as the news hit of the breadth of the disaster and the gravity of what was going on, it turned into an accidental grassroots effort that has been embraced across the, well, actually it's international at this point because my videos talking about it had gone viral.
	And it's hard to put into words what it looks like in western North Carolina because it's truly war zone kind of conditions in many areas where the roads have collapsed.
	I-40 between North Carolina and Tennessee collapsed with vehicles stranded on the highway.
	You have the city of Asheville, which is a decent-sized small city, 14 feet of water over the water treatment station, so no water in the city, and town's gone.
	Chimney Rock is gone.
	That's one of the few situations you can actually find evidence of on the social networks.
	Swannanoa went underwater.
	Montreat, the home of Billy Graham, just virtually destroyed and All I can describe it as is the flood of biblical proportions.
	It's the highest amount of flooding we've ever seen in the state.
	It was four feet higher than the previous generational flood in 1916. So it was and was and it is because we're still right now on day 13, I guess.
	We're still doing rescue efforts for people who were in their homes and in the driveways washed away and the roads washed away.
	And the only way you can access these people is with ATVs.
	And unfortunately, there's as many.
	Well, there's probably at this point more that have perished than have survived in those survival situations just because of where the geography had it located.
	And it's staggering.
	It's just staggering.
	I've never seen anything like it, quite frankly.
	You see wind damage.
	I grew up in Florida, saw hurricanes all the time, and to see homes demolished with tornadoes and hurricanes, that's one thing.
	thing but i've never seen the kind of force that we saw with this water just washing away you know not only homes but highways and the foundations of where the the highways were i mean it is just it's like a nuclear bomb went off it is truly amazing what has happened there but what about the when you got there what did you see i mean you you drive up to you You didn't know how bad this was going to be.
	And what was the situation there?
	I guess at that point in time, people were doing rescue work.
	Tell us a little bit about that.
	Well, I think the rescue work was actually slightly delayed because of the breadth of the disaster.
	I mean, you're talking a geographic area that's the size of other states.
	So there's a shock factor involved.
	And I have some friends that are mayors of small towns because I'm fairly politically active.
	And I talked to a friend of mine in one of the...
	Well, small city, large town status just to check in and see what was going on.
	And he told me his town had no water, that their water station had gone out.
	And of course, my immediate reaction was, let me get you some water.
	So I talked to a friend of mine who had a horse trailer.
	And so we called Lowe's to see if we could get a hold of some pallets of water.
	And this was on the first day.
	So we chased down the water.
	We get the water into her truck.
	And head west.
	Well, while we're heading west, they're closing down access points, and I-40 is the primary interstate going, obviously, from east to west, and it was shut down, so we had to go on 70, and then when we got on 70, there were only certain ways you could get into this town because of the road washouts,
	but also because of the blockades that had been put up to We're good to go.
	Because there was no water.
	I mean, the municipal system is out, and I don't know that any of us really understand how much we take for granted our clean and safe drinking water.
	I mean, unless you've traveled in the third world, it's hard to understand how spoiled we are as Americans.
	And when that water supply is gone, people on a well would normally be all right, but their electricity is out.
	And if they have a generator, did they have fuel for it?
	Because not everybody is thinking ahead all the time.
	Most folks don't have a stockpile of water.
	So we got there with this pallet of water and the people came over and got it immediately.
	Just sheer gratitude.
	And the beauty of it was nobody was grabbing more than they should have.
	There was a very big desire to make it go as far as it could.
	And that was day one.
	And so looking at the road closures was great.
	It was very unsettling to think you could no longer travel freely because of all the blockades.
	If you could travel freely, the roads may not be accessible.
	And if the roads aren't accessible, how do you get to your neighbors with life-saving things like clean water?
	And then that was day one.
	By day three, there's The smell of decomposition, and that's a, it's nothing anybody ever wants to experience, but that's, if you remember the temperatures when this hit, it was still Indian summer, so still warm enough, and the human body is not made for Yeah.
	We have not gathered all of our neighbors who perished.
	They have not all had a decent burial, of course, because we haven't located everybody.
	And so it's just, it's hard.
	And so when you see it now, the news is already showing the parts of towns that are intact.
	Their messaging being, it wasn't that bad, but it is, it's just devastation.
	And the example I can give you of a town called Rollins is a very tiny hamlet in the North Carolina mountains had about 15 homes prior to the The Great Flood, I guess.
	There's four houses left.
	And that's one of the lucky little hamlets.
	The rest of the houses are gone because it primarily sat on the banks of a river.
	And when you see what's left...
	It's just things are gone.
	It's hard to get your mind around it.
	And for me as a North Carolina native who's gone to the mountains for years for vacations and for going out hiking and church retreat.
	I mean, every church I've ever gone to the retreat places are up in the mountains.
	Your geography has changed forever.
	So you have the loss of life.
	We've lost humans.
	The geography is different.
	Towns are gone.
	And so there's a grief over what the state was prior to 2024 and what it is now because it won't ever be the same.
	It really makes the Bible come to life when you look at the way that things went in the Torah and what happened with these towns as they warred with each other and they would wipe them out and salt the earth.
	You can't help but feel that There's obviously a visual of the spiritual battle that we're in.
	Yeah.
	Oh, that's amazing.
	And so at this point now, as you said, all the roads are closed.
	There weren't any roads in many cases, so they would block people off from that.
	In terms of logistics of trying to get stuff in, that's got to be so incredibly challenging.
	We've had all kinds of reports that we've talked about over the last week about people trying to come in with helicopters and evacuate people out, other people pulling rank on them and stopping that.
	Organizations like the one that was in Batcave, they've done a great job logistically of putting stuff in and getting things distributed.
	How are you operating with this and who are you partnering with in order to get these supplies in when there's not a clear path or a road to get there?
	Well, when my video went viral, I got calls from people with trucks and trailers literally all over the country who are patriots, who are not afraid of figuring it out.
	And we have had this ragtag group of people who never knew each other but responded to a call Who have come in, found their way through, truckers who had the right permits and knew how to navigate road closures better than a regular person, local people with an SUV or a pickup truck or a 4x4 And my group has just kind of filled gaps wherever we've been called upon.
	The organized groups have helped us to know where are the Polaris guys needed?
	Where can we get an ATV up?
	We need Toach to put food in to go up the side of a hill to get to a family.
	So it's none of the big groups.
	I will give good credit to Samaritan's Purse, Franklin Graham's organization.
	They were in Boone as of day one with their organization.
	They were set up and distributing, and my goodness, a super well-oiled machine.
	Very impressed with the work that they've done.
	And the Baptist churches, the Baptist Coalition got busy on day one as well, and they've been spreading out through the church network to some of the smaller areas.
	But other than that, we've operated with people we find on Facebook or people that have been referred to us as reputable and kind, thoughtful people who are looking out for their neighbors.
	And so it's It's just what happens when people decide to pitch in together it's not a 501c3 and we're not any true organization and in fact those of us that swung into action a few days ago are now trying to figure out all right we still have jobs to do because we're not relief workers and there are professionals available but they're still overwhelmed so how do we continue to help while we manage our own lives so that we can continue to support but it's The
	way people have pitched in is, it's the spirit of what America was founded on, and it's encouraging to see that it's still there.
	It is.
	And, you know, just before he came on, I finished off with Alexis de Tocqueville, who came to the U.S.
	Basically, look at the prison system.
	But he was just amazed at how people in America would come together to solve a common problem voluntarily as a community.
	And it is wonderful from a perspective of where I am.
	It's wonderful to see that happening again, to see that that's not dead, that when people see that there's a need, they can organize themselves and people come together and offer their services.
	I've seen this in the past when there's been localized stuff.
	It's not many times when it's really big.
	Then you get FEMA or you get the military.
	Other people come in and they essentially shut that down and take it over.
	Whether they do a good job or not, they don't allow people to participate.
	They shut that down.
	And so that's why I think it's so important about this.
	And part of what you're doing, I think, you're kind of focused on trying to get supplies.
	And as I look at the site that you've set up, you've got an Amazon wish list.
	And in that wish list, you put in things that people need.
	Medical supplies, general needs wish list, and other things like that.
	And I guess you're then handing that off to some of these other organizations that are there?
	No, we're taking it in ourselves because we have had three scenarios where my teams have been interrupted by FEMA and FEMA has a plan to inventory everything that they can get their hands on.
	We choose not to let them inventory it because there's a need and I don't think they fully grasp how geographically challenging an area like this is because you're not talking a city, an urban center, even a flat area.
	You're talking 15 houses here, 68 houses there, and The centralized information tends to be the volunteer fire department.
	So we've reached out to many of the volunteer fire departments because they know who in their community needs insulin.
	Well, I probably don't have insulin, but I may have a contact who can help get the prescriptions and handle all the details on that.
	And so we're moving more quickly because we're not trying to follow the red tape of the government.
	And we understand that FEMA wants to have a central supply hub.
	But if you have a central supply hub in a huge geographical area, then how are you going to deploy that in a timeframe that makes sense, especially with Frost warnings now, because now we've moved into winter.
	So our job today, we moved another, well, we moved 30 generators up today to give to 30 different homes so they could keep the heat on.
	We moved another dozen propane portable heaters into some other homes for elderly who don't want to leave, can't leave.
	And I don't know that FEMA's interested in dropping generators at people's houses so that they can stay put.
	They would rather put you through a red tape nightmare to get a little bit of cash, but the little bit of cash they're offering doesn't even cover the cost of a generator that I got at wholesale price.
	Yeah.
	So if you're elderly and you apply for this little bit of money on FEMA online, so you have to have Internet access.
	They want receipts.
	They want a doctor's note.
	If it's, say, a breathing machine, we also got tanks of oxygen delivered up today as well.
	They want a doctor's note for your oxygen.
	Okay, so FEMA is only going to give you money if you prove your power was out while you're on the Internet.
	And if you prove that you have a doctor's note for what you need and if you have receipts and then you'll get this $750.
	Well, I have found that if the donations I've received are going to buy 30 generators.
	I called my guy at Lowe's and Lowe's has been amazing by the way.
	They were so quick to help us with hunting down what we needed, giving us wholesale pricing, even though I'm not a builder.
	And Lowe's helped us hunt them down.
	We talked to a guy with a trailer, and the guy with the trailer, who's not working today, put the generators on and ran them up so that they could be distributed from a church to these 30 homes.
	If FEMA's in charge, what's that, a month process?
	And in that month process, how many health issues occur because somebody's cold in their home in the mountains in the winter in North Carolina?
	So, yeah, we're circumventing, but not because we're, you know, breaking any laws.
	We're just doing it a better way.
	And this is how the communities were built, though.
	We took care of each other.
	Churches used to be the center.
	Churches knew who was hungry, and we fed them, and we knew who was sick, and we took care of them because the Bible says you take care of aliens, widows, and orphans.
	And so that's what we're looking at here is how do we take care of those that are Passed out those that are alone and those that are unable to care for themselves.
	That's right.
	And, you know, the bureaucracies have their own agenda.
	But the other part of it is the centralization that you're talking about.
	If you've got a decentralized thing that is happening, it can happen so much more effectively and quickly than the centralized bureaucracy.
	It took them a long time from what I've seen to even show up.
	And then when they do, they're obstructionists because of their imposed procedures.
	Because of centralized planning and distribution and all the rest of the stuff.
	So that is what is so essential.
	And that is also, that's why we need to talk about this for everybody.
	It shows the power of community.
	It shows the power of volunteerism.
	And it shows just at the same time that the callousness and the ineffectiveness of a distant, centralized bureaucracy.
	And that's the key story, I think, here.
	And as you point out, this is going to go on for quite some time.
	I mean, I've seen some of the organizations.
	There was some midnight organization that has a history of going and they spent two and a half years at an Indian reservation.
	FEMA wouldn't do anything to help them, but they're wiped out with a storm.
	And I don't know why it didn't fall into their bureaucratic checklist of something they would help with.
	But this group went there and they stayed there for like two and a half years.
	And they said, we're going to be here for several years because we're going to be here helping people rebuild.
	I guess at this point right now, the rescue operation is really more recovery of bodies.
	But the people that are there, they need a constant resupply of things because they really can't help themselves.
	It's really reliant on Outside help, would you say?
	Absolutely, because the infrastructure has just experienced catastrophic damage.
	The city of Asheville is not expected to have water back for another three weeks, is the optimistic estimate.
	That's a city.
	Now, if you go to some of the outlying areas, there is some return of power, but there has not been a return yet of water services because being mountainous, you've also got some groundwater concerns now with the way that the flooding occurred.
	So even if you're on a well, The newest thing we're adding to our wish list are well water testing kits.
	We are begging people to test the water before you use it because you don't know what has come into your water source now.
	And part of what we received from our donations from around the country, and obviously I am just one of the many, many voices that has been a voice to cry out for Western North Carolina, but the water that has come in It has just been astonishing.
	We actually have had to hold some back in storage because there's nowhere else to put it, and people have provided.
	Let me ask you this.
	We're talking about water.
	This is a comment from somebody on here.
	McGowan, a fan, thank you for that.
	That says make sure you have a gravity filter, a non-electric distiller to make sure it's as pure as possible.
	I imagine that would really be a priority rather than bringing in the water, bringing in something that's going to be able to, you know, water filters that are gravity feed that don't have to have power.
	I'm sure that's on your list as well, right?
	Thank you.
	Oh, yes.
	And we have folks that have sent us some very good explainer videos for how people can get those set up.
	And what we're doing right now, we're in triage phase right now.
	And when you're in triage, it's pallets of water and how do we manage it for this moment.
	And as we get the systems in place and we figure out how to get people through roads, we have these I guess you could call them hillbilly road repairs where you have a bunch of guys that show up and put a road back together during the night, old school style.
	As we get those things fixed, then we can look at more of the bigger picture because we have people that would like to take a shower.
	And so an item like those gravity filters is something that if you do it big enough and put it up a little bit, you can actually clean with it.
	We're still in triage phase.
	It's the hardest thing to explain to folks that We won't think to be fixed.
	Our whole society is an immediate gratification society.
	We want it fixed.
	We want it better.
	And when we took up the generators, we took up some dehumidifiers because if you think about this, a lot of the houses have water intrusion.
	As somebody in real estate, I want to save those houses.
	So we have to get dehumidifiers in, get the moisture out so they don't wind up with a mold problem when we invariably hit a little warm streak, which is North Carolina.
	It's going to do warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold for a while.
	And we want to make sure these people's houses are still safe to live in.
	So yes, there's lots of things we can do.
	And for those of y'all that are curious, one of our best prepper communities that I've ever known is in one of the affected counties.
	They're doing pretty all right.
	Now they've actually been able to take what they had prepared and they are helping their neighbors.
	In fact, one of my dear friends in that community Was frustrated with the distribution, so she put a pop-up tent in her yard and put out some supplies that we brought to her house just on the back of a trailer and the neighbors all came right out and were served and That's a blessing to be prepared enough that you can serve.
	And I don't know that we talk about that enough with people who are organically just taking care of the future and thinking ahead.
	It's not just a selfish desire to take care of yourself, but if you're taken care of, you have the bandwidth to help other people.
	So just a reminder that prepping is not selfish.
	Oh yeah, and it's not crazy either.
	They like to portray that as a crazy thing.
	It's like, I'm sorry, we've seen too many things happen in the last few years for people to ever think that prepping is crazy.
	It's crazy not to prep.
	A question, this is from someone here.
	People, they said a lot of people, the government is already telling people they can't rebuild in certain places because it's not safe, says Zim Sellers.
	Is that something that you're saying?
	Of course, Lee, you're a realtor, and her website is LeeSells, and she spells her name L-E-I-G-H, LeeSells.com, and you'll find information about this relief effort.
	But of course, you can also find that at GiveSendGo, and at GiveSendGo, you look for WeLove.com.
	WNC for Western North Carolina.
	We love WNC. That'll give you that information.
	I'm sure probably link back to the other thing as well.
	But as a realtor, what are you hearing about that?
	Because that's been a concern of a lot of people.
	You know, we've got these situations with a couple of different mines, a very rare quartz mine, a big lithium mine.
	The people didn't really want to see that come in.
	Are they going to shove people out?
	Are we hearing any of that kind of stuff?
	Well, it's a valid concern when we see what happened in Maui, and that's a situation that I don't think will ever be adequately explained, although a lot of us have our theories.
	North Carolina is fortunate, though.
	We have a very strong state constitution that is very much protective of private property rights.
	So when all of the When all of this stuff went down, the lithium vein that gets referenced runs from Asheville all the way down through Gaston County.
	It's been there, obviously, since the Lord created it, but it became very valuable as we've moved more towards these electronic vehicles that are being forced on us.
	Gaston County is where we saw the first mining operations really kick in.
	Generally, you've got a lot of BlackRock stakeholders, so there's a lot of, I would say, nefarious actors afoot, but this storm, unless the cloud seeding situation really is what happened, and even if it were, I don't know that the bad actors can get a hold of the land unless the property owners sell,
	because our state constitution protects illegal takings by the government, and if If something were to happen, it would be that a phone call comes in to Bob from some little shyster investor who says, your land ain't worth nothing.
	I'll give you cash.
	Take it off your hands.
	So if our neighbors can't give in to bad sales pitches, then there could be some takings going on.
	But as of right now, and I talked to the Speaker of the House in North Carolina.
	He's a very savvy lawyer.
	He told me there's no legislation needed at this point because the Constitution is strong, but he did ask the real estate community to please get the word out to people.
	Don't sell cheap.
	Don't give in to what you read on the internet because that's the risk.
	The risk is that The chatter on X and Instagram and Facebook scares people enough that they go ahead and sell.
	I will point out there's a lot of chatter about a town hall meeting that happened in Chimney Rock.
	That did not happen.
	That's an internet urban myth.
	And so it's important to be alert because our government is full of bad actors who do value money more than they value life because they serve the wrong God.
	And as we look at What they do on a general basis, it is possible to believe it, but in North Carolina, what I don't think they counted on at Black Rock is the absolute stubbornness of mountain people who are not going anywhere.
	And there was a lady that we spoke with on Sunday of last week And she had basically moved herself up under what was left of her lean-to.
	Her house is pretty much gone and there's a flagpole in the yard.
	She said, I ain't going anywhere.
	And so we said, all right, we're going to get you a heated tent so you can stay put.
	But, you know, they might be thinking that the attitudes are more of the people they encounter in the Ashevilles, the urban areas that go to the breweries and our university kids, but Mountain people are generational, hardscrabble folks.
	They're used to pulling a living out of very unforgiving land.
	They have made home sites on mountainsides, and I think they're going to prove to be a tougher sell than anybody realizes.
	Good.
	Along those lines, what about insurance?
	Because we're seeing a lot of stuff about how insurance companies are trying to weasel out of this kind of thing.
	And as a realtor, again, what do you hear in terms of people dealing with their insurance companies?
	Well, now that is a concern because the property values have gone up so much since the COVID era started in 2020. And for most people, if you owned a property and you had insurance on it, it's probably surely unlikely that you called the insurance company and said, hey, my property went up.
	From $250,000 to $500,000, please increase my coverage.
	Most people don't do that because they don't want to pay the increased premium.
	However, if you did not increase your coverage, then your insurance policy may be enforced and you may have paid on it dutifully, but if the value of your house exceeds the policy, that's not even the fault of the insurance company.
	That is The challenge of a rising market.
	And when you're in a home that's in good shape or you're selling it, you love the rising market.
	When you're buying, you hate the rising market.
	When you're a homeowner who's enjoying your 3% interest rate that you got seven years ago, it doesn't bother you until something like this hits.
	And so what I would say is What we have been saying on the real estate side for some time is, please check your policies and make sure that you have the appropriate amount of coverage because what you paid $250,000 for six years ago cannot be built for that now.
	Even if you had the money, labor's high, materials are high, and the biggest cost we have is permits and regulations trying to get something built.
	So we should all be paying attention to our policies.
	Now, that being said, if you are watching this or listening to this and you're in an affected area, Don't tell the insurance company that you experienced a flood.
	You've got to tell them it was high water and rain because you're more likely to get covered if you don't use the word flood.
	And I'd also point this out.
	There's a lot of experts on the internet.
	I love internet experts in the comments, and they keep telling us that these people should have had flood insurance.
	Really?
	Really?
	You put a house on a mountainside?
	No, they didn't have flood insurance.
	And that's normal because, again, we're in an inflationary environment where people are trying to pay the bills.
	They're not going to add on flood insurance for the side of the mountain where it's not necessary because you're not in a flood zone and you don't think it's ever going to happen.
	But I can't blame an insurance company for being nervous about a generational, not even generational.
	I think this is a...
	It's a century-long era we've been dealing with here.
	They can't anticipate it, and they're not made out of money either.
	The only crowd that's made out of money is the government who keeps printing it and taking it out of our pockets where nobody can afford anything.
	So that's a challenge, too.
	But the other thing people don't know about flood insurance is even if you had it, Even if you got your claim approved, it's a max payout of $250,000.
	And the way the markets have changed, that's not even going to buy you a nice double-wide when you consider all of the foundation things that have to be reset.
	We've got to redo septic tanks.
	We're going to have to redo wells.
	We're going to have to redo water and sewer taps if it's on the infrastructure lines.
	It's going to be interesting, and I don't know what the answer is, but as I said in the video a couple of days ago, I sure hope that the banks like JPMorgan and Bank of America, who make a lot of money off of homeowners, I hope they'll forgive these mortgages because I do worry about the people who no longer have a collateral.
	They have no house left, but they still have a mortgage.
	That's right.
	What's going to happen there?
	Are they going to get foreclosed on no house or is the bank going to forgive it?
	I don't know the answer, but I just, it's What everybody has to do is pray for the affected people because they're going to need strength and resilience to process all of these things while they find water and food, while they do without a hot shower in their house.
	And now they've got to think about mortgages for houses that don't exist and it's untenable for a lot of people.
	And then how do they work?
	You know how they work?
	The roads are washed out?
	I mean, what happens to their income?
	That's the other part of it as well.
	Well, the stores are gone.
	A lot of our employers have lost their businesses.
	I mean, I look at my real estate people and we don't get a lot of sympathy because we have a terrible...
	Um, perception of us has been created by the mainstream media and by Hollywood, but I think most of your viewers and listeners, when you've engaged with a realtor, they're very hard-working, thoughtful people.
	Well, what are they gonna sell?
	There's no inventory for them to sell.
	They live on commission, and I've talked to several who are in a panic right now because they did have something under contract, but Now the house is either gone or damaged.
	Buyer can't buy, seller can't sell, house isn't going to receive a loan.
	So you've got a whole profession that's out of work unless they relocate.
	hey, well, if a real estate agent relocates to work for me an hour away, I'd be glad to have them, but they don't know anybody where I am in real estate's relationship-based.
	And it's competitive, and then you have to learn a new county and you learn a new market.
	So it's challenge on top of challenge.
	But I'm hopeful that because North Carolina has had so many employers come in with Eli Lilly and Toyota and BoomSonic, that we'll see those new big employers rise up and make a concerted effort to provide employment to people, even if it's a one-year contract, to give them a chance to get started again.
	It's just...
	It's so multifaceted.
	But I just thought about it, you know, how do you get to work, and is the place that you worked at even still there?
	Well, and we need cars, because cars are gone.
	Yeah.
	I think the car's flooded, too.
	That's right.
	Yeah, no car.
	Wow.
	But, you know, I talked to a guy, so he's an asphalt trucker, and, of course, I told you trucks and trailers have come in from around the country.
	This wonderful gentleman has a new dump truck.
	He works for an asphalt company out of Tennessee.
	And it's one of our largest asphalt companies in the Southeast.
	They got a bid to come fix some roads, but the main facility was gone because of the floods.
	And so this company received a bid.
	He lost 59 pieces of equipment.
	And then you have to ask yourself, my gracious, how crazy is the volume and force of the water that 59 pieces of asphalt lay-in equipment could get destroyed?
	So I look at that, and in a normal time, he'd be glad to have that kind of job.
	That's a huge job, it's a huge bid, but here he gets a bid, no equipment to serve it, and even if he could, his men can't get to and from work right now.
	Yeah, it's going to be a real litigious situation, the difference between a rain and a flood.
	As you pointed out, don't use the word flood.
	Don't use the word flood.
	Yeah, rain and wind and everything, but they're going to say that it's a flood.
	That's where the fight is going to be.
	I can see that being really litigious.
	So it's such a bad situation.
	And again, it's important to have you on so that people know this is an ongoing situation.
	It's going to go on for a very, very long time as we're talking about all these different aspects that are here.
	But it's going to pass out of the news cycle.
	Everybody's going to get interested in politics and all the rest of the stuff, and there'll be another storm, another hurricane somewhere, just as we see.
	A lot of the attention was redirected away from North Carolina because of Milton coming in this last week.
	And so, that type of thing is going to be there, but the needs continue on there.
	And again, if people want to help, it is WeLoveWNC, as in Western North Carolina, WeLoveWNC at Give, Send, Go.
	And I guess there's links there to your page there under LeeSells.com.
	You've got a page, and I guess you've got a link back to that from...
	Probably the easiest way for them to find it is going to Give, Send, Go and look at We Love WNC. It is so wonderful to see people helping other people.
	And it's tragic that this has happened.
	But I think that is a silver lining that is there.
	And it's an important lesson for everybody to see throughout the country.
	And anything else that you would like to say?
	I mean, we've got a little bit more time.
	What would you like to stress to people?
	Well, one thing I would just like to say is that it was disturbing to me as somebody who I read a lot.
	I follow a lot of the information trails.
	And I didn't realize how deep the overall distrust is of not just our government, but of our traditional organizations like the Red Cross.
	I mean, I watched the Red Cross drag their feet coming to town because they said it was too dangerous to get here.
	But then I saw the leaked emails from the current administration that said they were going to delay their response because it was not safe.
	So I wondered if the Red Cross was following the government.
	But that would explain why nobody trusts them.
	And it's a shame that we fall into that as a society that we no longer trust our government.
	I certainly don't trust Big Pharma.
	I don't trust the school system, as you mentioned in your piece before I came on.
	I don't trust most of these relief organizations.
	And I thought that by opening up, you know, a chance for people to give me their donations that I could fill my truck up with some supplies.
	I did not anticipate that so many people said, Hey lady, I saw on the internet in a video, you seem more trustworthy than big organizations and FEMA. And so when they've sent me these gifts, they've thanked me.
	They know that I'm directing the dollars to actual neighbors.
	And all of them have said, just please keep going around FEMA because they understand that the speed is for the need.
	It's encouraging and discouraging at the same time, but then I remember how much my grandmother, oh, she longed for the end times, and I remind myself it's a privilege to get to live in them, and so all I can do is be a laborer in the harvest, and I'm grateful for everybody that's laboring as well,
	those that are doing the helicopter lifts and the ATV search and rescues and cutting logs to get people out of driveways and You really do see the best in people, and hopefully we as a people will decide that we've had enough of the corrupt elites that diminish us, and we will either put this back to rights like happened with the people of Israel so long ago, or God's going to have His way.
	That's right.
	I hope everybody in the sound of my voice chooses Jesus and chooses to repent before you miss your chance.
	I have to talk that in there.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, and that's the key thing.
	You know, it used to be that it was all about the community, about helping neighbors.
	And as you pointed out, we knew who needed help.
	So, you know, once you institutionalize this stuff, what you're doing is you're institutionalizing inefficiencies and graft and corruption and that type of stuff.
	And it is at the point now where everybody sees these established institutions and we don't trust them.
	That's why it is so important to For individuals like you to step up and to do the right thing, and it is great to see that.
	And you've gotten a good deal of support there on Give, Send, Go.
	And so, again, it is We Love WNC, is how you can keep track of what is happening there.
	And we've been talking to Lee Brown.
	Thank you so much for what you're doing, for stepping up with that, coming into that area.
	It truly is amazing.
	And I know that it is very challenging, but it's also very blessing to To be able to help other people.
	We don't ever want to be in a situation where we need the help, but it is wonderful to be able to offer the help.
	And so thank you for what you're doing.
	Thank you for stepping up.
	And we really do appreciate the example that is being set there by all the people voluntarily stepping in and helping their neighbor.
	It's great to see that that has not died out in America.
	It hasn't been smothered by this massive bureaucracy of these corrupt institutions that we see, both public and private.
	It's great to see people just stepping up on the spur of the moment and doing this type of thing.
	Thank you so much for what you do.
	Appreciate it.
	Well, I appreciate the opportunity.
	Thank you to you and your listeners and viewers.
	Thank you.
	Thank you, Lee.
	We're going to take a quick break, folks, and we will be right back.
	Stay with us.
	Thank you.
	Liberty.
	It's your move.
	And now, The David Knight Show.
	The David Knight Show.
	The David Knight Show.
	Thank you.
	Joining us now is Dr. Jane Ruby.
	I've had a lot of people who've contacted me and said, you guys are on the same page.
	You need to get her on and talk.
	And I'm always happy to get people who, you know, when we're looking either at politics or at the pandemic, because the pandemic was politics, you know, Always happy to have them on.
	And Dr. Jane Ruby has a lot of medical experience as well as political experience.
	She is a licensed nurse practitioner.
	She actually ran clinical sites for quite some time and then took a sabbatical and went to Washington and worked there.
	So she knows both the politics and the medical stuff.
	So it's great to have her.
	Thank you for joining us.
	It's good to talk to you.
	You too, David.
	I have to say, you are definitely one of my go-to people every day.
	Oh, thank you.
	It's not just the echo chamber.
	You bring such a great new perspective to this, so I'm really thrilled to be with you today and really appreciate it.
	Tell people what you think about the last four years.
	Is that broad enough?
	I mean, you know, I'm looking at this and yesterday I said, I saw this article, well, what would you have done in Germany in the 1930s?
	I said, you don't even have to think about that.
	What did you do in America or in the UK or Canada in the last four years?
	You know, what have you done in the 2020s?
	Because that's really the point of testing.
	You know, to see if you really get this.
	And what did you do?
	Did you go along with it, even if you understood it?
	Or did they completely fool you?
	Or did they get you to comply with it, even though you knew it was wrong?
	You know, take a look at that.
	So what do you think about these last four years and what we just saw at the Republican convention, where they just kind of seemed to ignore what happened in 2020, except for the election, of course.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, there was a huge, huge elephant in that auditorium at the RNC, and I just can't believe the American people, I shouldn't even preface it by saying I can't believe, because after what I saw in 2020, and the caving to all of this, the masks, those shots, the whole bit, by so many Americans really stunned me at the time, and it shouldn't surprise me anymore that they're allowing themselves to be, you know, memory-holded, And so many people are just going forward.
	Here's the thing, David, when I say to people, you know, this is crazy, I point out things about Trump, he's hiring all the wrong people again, you know, we saw it in D.C. in the first term.
	You know, people say to me, well, what are you going to do, Dr. Jane?
	You know, go vote for Biden?
	They're missing the whole point.
	They're missing the whole point because you don't have elections.
	And actually, there's a third choice between Trump, Biden, and the third choice is, how about holding Trump accountable?
	How about making him a better candidate, right?
	I'm sure you agree with that.
	Oh, nobody wants to criticize him.
	You see what happens.
	I mean, even the guy in Virginia who was head of the Freedom Caucus, simply for endorsing DeSantis, he was excommunicated from the Republican Party.
	Right.
	So much for, you know, freedom of thought and freedom of speech.
	But to get back to your original question, I mean, you actually touched on, I was fascinated again by your first segment, you touched on two of my favorite topics.
	If you don't mind, I'll go into those a little bit, maybe from additional angles.
	The PCR test, many people have forgotten.
	First of all, let me take a broader stand.
	There is no validated test on the planet to diagnose any flu or differentiate one flu from another.
	So people go, yes, but, and I say, whoa, whoa, whoa.
	Bring yourself back to the beginning.
	Let me repeat what I just said and try to grasp what I just said.
	I try to educate people to validate an instrument.
	If I hold up my pen and I say, this is going to make your eggs tomorrow morning, David, I have to test it for validity.
	Does it make eggs, right?
	I know I'm being a little silly, but you get the point across.
	But the second part of validity studies is reliability.
	Okay, let's say this pen magically gets up tomorrow morning and makes David Knight's eggs.
	But does it do it every morning or the majority of mornings?
	That's your reliability.
	There's none of that testing on this in addition to the inventor, Carey Mullis, as we all know by now, who said it's not diagnostic.
	And you did a great job of explaining why you can get down to those molecular levels and you're really not seeing anything, which is what he was trying to say.
	But The CDC itself, in a sleight of hand, kind of, in 2021, July, recalled the PCR. And people just, you know, people call me to this day, you know, hey, I got sick over the weekend, and I got a COVID test, and it was positive.
	Oh my God.
	David, my head wants to explode.
	Yeah, I know.
	I know.
	It's crazy.
	It's just like, it's as ridiculous as a mask once you understand what it's about.
	Exactly.
	I tried to tell people early on, the only time I did work in a hospital, I did take care of patients independently, I have assisted in surgeries, my specialty was cardiology, I assisted in bypass grafts.
	The only time we wore a mask were two times in a hospital.
	If you're in the OR, so in case you have a reflexive sneeze, you don't spit into somebody's open gut.
	Or if they were on medications to suppress their immune capabilities because they got an organ transplant.
	Those are the only two times we ever wore a mask because we knew that it had no other purpose.
	So...
	Anyway, so the PCR, and it's the gift that keeps giving, because like you said, without the PCR, you don't have cases.
	You can't gin up H5N1. You can't gin up COVID 2.3 or whatever it's going to be.
	And so that's my little spiel on the PCR. Yeah.
	And, you know, let me just add to, you know, Fauci, you know, coming from that field, he knew that he had a problem in terms of show me this or show me that doing the real science.
	And it was the perfect answer for that.
	You know, using it to push HIV, which is where the big fight was between him and Wallace.
	But it gave this veneer that you could actually observe and do real science with it.
	And that's the fundamental lie that he was able to exploit from AIDS to COVID. He built his career and he built all these deceptions on the PCR test.
	It truly is amazing.
	Yes, he did.
	And a lot of innocent animals and millions of innocent people died, especially in third world countries, but all over, including in the United States.
	And just to wrap up on the RNC, the absurdity was that there was no touching on the COVID-19 shots as biological weapons, which has been proven over and over again by countless analysts and scientists.
	The role of the DOD. I put out a tweet a while ago, David, and I said, think about this.
	Why don't you ask Trump?
	When they gin up H5N1 and they throw it in your face and you create your new panel, what are you going to do differently?
	Because if he says nothing, you know you've got your deep state guy.
	He's just picking all the wrong people.
	I know we'll get into that in a minute, but I want to touch on my second favorite topic that you covered, if I could, earlier.
	And that was McCullough.
	I've been on to Peter McCullough for over two years.
	And my dubious distinction is, they can come after me, David, they can call me names, they can call me fake, they can disparage my credentials, but they've never proven me wrong.
	And I called him out two, two and a half years ago, because I was in a private Telegram chat, C19 expert group, that he created himself.
	And in that chat, David, one day to my astounding, he posted a communication to us with some data on Novavax when Novavax first came out.
	Right.
	It's also a biological weapon.
	It gets to the mRNA in your body, but through a different mechanism, different story.
	And I questioned in front of everyone.
	Well, how why are you promoting?
	It's not a vaccine and it's another weapon.
	And boom, I was blocked from that group shortly after that.
	You have to understand, we were doing each other's podcasts.
	We were friendly.
	We were colleagues.
	So it really was a huge red flag for me.
	There are three problems I have with him.
	First of all, he's taken, if you look at Chuck Grassley's Sunshine Act, the website is openpayments.cms.gov, the government's repository for money.
	Every time I took a physician out, In my pharmaceutical role.
	I was in the industry for 20 years, as you probably know.
	We had to file some paperwork with the CMS. If I took out Dr. Jim Smith, and it was a $200 bill, I had to file that.
	So they keep those accumulated.
	He has taken, since 2015, $5.5 million.
	And that's in addition to research grants.
	Now, by comparison, the late Dr. Zelenko...
	in that same five-year period took about $600 from pharma over seven or eight years.
	That's like a sandwich a year.
	Right?
	So, that's number one.
	And, you know, they expect something for that money, as you know, David.
	So, what has he done?
	He's pushed a very dangerous, supposed antiviral called Paxilvid.
	Paxilvid is two antivirals, Nirmatrelvir and Ritnevir.
	Ritonavir has a black box warning and has had it for years by the FDA, its highest warning level for a drug before they pull it, right?
	And so it's very dangerous.
	And you have Albert Bourla coming on, promoting off-label, saying, yeah, if it doesn't work the first time, take another round of it.
	Where are your studies for that?
	Just keep taking it until you crawl over and go.
	Keep taking it.
	Keep filling that scrap.
	You'll be fine.
	Wow.
	And that's against the law, by the way.
	That's off-label promotion by a commercial agent of a company.
	In contrast to how I knew there was a problem in 2020, I'm a prescriber as a nurse practitioner, so I understood the lie right away when they said, well, I got sick myself and I said to my doctor in March of 2020, okay, just phone in the hydroxychloroquine.
	We weren't aware of ivermectin at the time and its effectiveness.
	And he said to me, I can't do that.
	I'll lose my license.
	What?
	There's no law that prohibits a prescriber from prescribing off-label.
	The illegality comes in, of course, when a company, whether you're on the medical side or the commercial side, promoting something other than that for which the drug was approved.
	Companies can't do that.
	Right?
	So he pushes PAX. He's got a protocol, David, for COVID. Right?
	Like you said in your first segment, he loves that narrative, that vaccine virus narrative.
	So he promotes, and then the natokinase story.
	It's associated with fibrin.
	There's no proof.
	And by the way, David, like you mentioned in the first segment, when he throws those studies at you, I want to tell the general public, please don't be intimidated by that.
	Because half of what he throws at you, if you really read beyond the title, is like you said, a fact.
	facsimile of a segment or a sequence it has nothing to do and where's your instrument i said to him where's the instrument remember good science you measure before then you give your onion powder then you measure after right where's your instrument that you're using peter to measure your pre and post spike proteins And I'll land my plane here.
	If they've never proven that this virus exists, and I'm all about that, I have not seen it proven to me in its whole and pure form from an ill individual, then how do you believe in the spike protein?
	How do you believe in a portion of something for which the whole has never been demonstrated?
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	It absolutely is amazing.
	You know, when I looked at the way they were describing the mRNA at the very beginning, and it's like, oh, okay, so it's going to go in here, and it's going to start replicating itself.
	And I thought, where's the off switch?
	It sounds an awful lot like cancer, you know?
	And what is this thing that it's making in your body?
	But that was their whole narrative, you know?
	That was the way Moderna described it.
	It's like, yeah, we're going to, we can do this really fast, President Trump, because we'll turn people's bodies into manufacturing facilities.
	It's like, Okay, it'll stop right there.
	That's enough for me.
	And here's the most egregious thing.
	His latest stunt, promoting another RNA, synthetic lab in silico created, God knows what it is, to go in after the previous one.
	And people are saying to me, what is that?
	What is that?
	That is the other mRNA that he's promoting.
	It's called SIRNA and it stands for sit down, everybody, small interfering.
	Isn't that convenient?
	And it's so genius that the first one was not genius.
	And it was able this.
	This one, though, David, is able to go target what the first one did and then reverse the damage.
	That's a fairy tale.
	There's no science behind that.
	And where are the double-blind placebo-controlled trials before and after for this SIRNA? He is so in the thick of Pharma's grip, it's not even funny.
	Well, I had a big problem with him and anybody who is promoting this lab leak theory, you know, or deliberately leaking it out, scaring people to gain a function stuff.
	Because as far as I'm concerned, that is a red herring to keep people away from looking at the effects of the vaccine.
	What do you think about that?
	I think it's 100% true.
	There are actually two biological weapons.
	One is used intermittently, and that was what was created, I believe, from the paperwork and the documentation at Fort Detrick by the DOD. And they use it to drop, I don't know, in an aerosol way or something, to show pockets of illness.
	And they create these cases and everything.
	But the major biological weapon...
	If you look at the work of Catherine Watt, Sasha Latapova, and by the way, Dr. Mike Eden is a mentor of mine as well.
	He's the head of their investigative group called Team Enigma.
	This, Pfizer even admitted it in the motion to dismiss argument in the Brooke Jackson whistleblower case.
	Hey, we weren't making a pharmaceutical product.
	We were making a military prototype.
	So there's no lab leak.
	You're...
	Your DOD, which is a RICO operation, just laundering and laundering and laundering money, actually produced these shots and the material.
	And here's the scary part, David.
	We have more than just H5N1. You had Albert Borla a year and a half ago, I tried to warn the public, admitting in a Davos interview that the fall of 2023 would have seasonal flu shots made entirely of this mRNA poison.
	And God knows what else it's in, In injection form.
	Botox, ladies.
	Fillers.
	Childhood schedule.
	They don't even hide it.
	It's in the childhood schedule multiple, multiple times.
	So this is a very frightening time for people not to be paying attention.
	It surely is.
	And when you look at it, everything is going into...
	Everything is going into drugs to control people.
	All the stuff about Ozempic and everything and Wegevee and, you know, well, you can't control our hunger, so let's come up with an injection.
	Well, what's in that?
	It's absolutely amazing to see how trusting people are.
	They trust the government.
	They trust the press.
	They trust the science, which is what you're supposed to do, right?
	Just trust the science.
	And let me bring it back to President Trump and J.D. Vance really quickly.
	The guy is entrenched in numerous companies, by the way, with his buddy, Vivek, Vivek and his brother Shankar, Ramaswamy's, Mommy Ramaswamy, provided them with all these opportunities.
	And you have, they're all in together and they're making millions right now in companies that are going to generate more MRNA. David, where are we going?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, it really concerns me when you look at Peter Thiel.
	Peter Thiel and Elon Musk are really excellent at manipulating the conservatives.
	You know, you had Thiel come out and say, yeah, I don't like those people at Davos.
	And yet, he's a permanent fixture at Bilderberg.
	You know, he and Alex Carp and these other people like that.
	They're always there.
	And when you look at what they want to do...
	In terms of technocracy, I think one of the key things is people just don't understand what the technocracy is.
	They want to try to pigeonhole people into some political categories that they already know about.
	Oh, well, they're conservative, or they're socialist, or they're Marxist, or this or that, or populist.
	But the technocracy thing is a completely different deal.
	And what confuses them, I think, is that it's got, you know, it's got a little bit of this and it's got a little bit of that, but it's got its own thing.
	And, you know, these people seek to rule the world through their technological prowess and their inventions and that type of thing.
	And it is a very dangerous, I would say satanic, move to think they're going to become like God.
	They're going to live forever.
	They're going to transfer themselves into machines.
	I mean, that's where they ultimately go.
	Peter Thiel is right there with Singularity.
	It is absolutely amazing to see J.D. Vance is now this acolyte of this guy who really put him into politics, put him into venture capital and all this other kind of stuff.
	And Peter Thiel is the guy who created the Singularity Foundation.
	it's just amazing unbelievable yeah it is it is amazing that people even though we've tried to make the connections for them that the american people it is true trump was truly right in 2015 or 2016 when he said i could step out in fifth avenue and shoot somebody and they'd still love me and they defend me and you know what he's been proven right over and over and over again they just can't get off the sycophant to look and i've said what is he going to do differently if he won't address the issue now of of the way warp speed went by the way
	i don't know if people know this david warp speed is in full operation it has offices and resources and budgets and it's humming along where do you think it's going yeah all this scary you know all this stuff that they put it in place and it is just um it continues to If you don't root it out, it's like this weed, and it's putting down deeper and deeper roots, and it's going to just sprout up in a big way.
	And that's the way all of these bureaucratic programs are.
	Once you put something in, you know, it's going back to Reagan when he got in.
	The Department of Education was created during the election year of 1980. Well, I'm going to get rid of that.
	He didn't get rid of it.
	And by the time he left, it was gigantic.
	And so we're going to see that with these guys that just handed off to each other in kind of a professional wrestling tag team match, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	When you think about it, I mean, we currently have, I have military intelligence friends that are on our side that have said to me for a year now, Jane, there are people inside the West Wing, the executive office building, which is on the White House grounds and in the White House, that literally have offices that are from the CCP, that are, the domestic enemies are just as dangerous, the Peter Thiels in my estimation.
	Yeah.
	And one other thought I had about Elon Musk, I don't know if you've thought about this, but the fact that Starlink is so available and cheap and everybody wants it in their house, and I'm thinking to myself, guys, Starlink, Neuralink, maybe if you put this thing in your house, it's insane.
	Maybe it does something through life.
	Why would you want to take the...
	It's funny, when I saw that and saw the links and everything, it made me think, I haven't talked about it, but it is like a predictive program.
	What was it called, Travis?
	Was it the Kingsman or something?
	Where at one point, they flipped the switch on the satellite thing, and everybody flips out and goes nuts and starts killing each other.
	And of course, they began all of this stuff.
	When they're in a church, so that the hero has to fight off and kill these people in church.
	You know, they just instantly, the switch is flipped and they start attacking him.
	Yeah, it's funny how they come up with this crazy stuff, but I tell people all the time, I said, the big mistake that we make is that we...
	I guess we'd say if we were George W. Bush, we'd say we misunderstand the technology these people have and how evil they are.
	You know, they are morally capable of anything, and they're pretty close to technologically capable of anything.
	And so that's really what we're up against, I think.
	Yeah, I totally agree with you.
	It's difficult to strike a balance between thinking, look, the military had the internet years before we even knew it existed.
	So there's kind of a fear factor of, oh my gosh, what do they have now that we don't even know about?
	But I want to balance that with maybe they have less than we think they do, and maybe they confabulate it with the fear factor.
	We've seen so much, but it just concerns me.
	And going into this election, I don't believe, I've said many times in my social media, we don't have elections anymore.
	And here's one of the key features.
	You know, Trump got taken out by three things, right?
	Technically.
	Internet-connected voting machines, two weeks of early voting, and those 2,000-meal drop boxes.
	He never said a word about them, right?
	In this election cycle, the three things that took him out, and those three things are still in place in most counties.
	We have 20,000 drop boxes in Palm Beach County alone, sitting in front of DMVs and other public buildings.
	I'm looking at these things going, why is this still here?
	Mm-hmm.
	Oh, yeah.
	All the stuff is still there.
	And what do you think?
	I mean, I'm looking at this, and the passions are being escalated on both sides now, especially after there was the shooting of the Trump rally.
	I don't know what to call it, but after there was a shooting of the Trump rally, everybody is like, okay, that's it.
	And they are just...
	Ready to have a war if they lose.
	And that's why I've been describing Trump as kind of the Mason-Dixon line for a new civil war.
	Both sides want to fight over him if he doesn't win.
	I'm concerned about it.
	What do you think about that?
	I mean, you know, they could easily manipulate us into a civil war just by manipulating the election, which is a very concerning thing because we know how they manipulate the election.
	And a civil war, you know, massive civil unrest gives them exactly the excuse they need for a more blatant, I say more blatant, martial law and lockdown.
	Hey, they're not going to get us to do it for a virus again.
	They know we're not going to go for it.
	Even people that are not completely aware, but...
	So they have to go about it in a different way.
	We have no excuse, or we have no other option.
	You're rioting in the streets.
	We have to protect people.
	Again, it's always under protecting people.
	But, you know, David, I've got to bring up that ear bandage.
	Can I just say a word about it?
	Yeah, I've got my doubts as well.
	What do you think about the ear bandage?
	First of all, if your ear got grazed, there's two stories.
	It got grazed, and then there was so much blood that it was all over.
	But if it got grazed, what do you need that giant patch for?
	You need the patch because there's nothing wrong with your ear.
	Exactly.
	But you got people out there in the audience, they're wearing the patch and on it it says fight, fight, fight.
	They wrote that on it.
	They put a piece of paper on their ear and it says fight, fight, fight.
	I look at it, there was somebody who did a test of it.
	And these guys were, you know, all about Trump and Trump.
	They were not trying to debunk Trump at all.
	But what they had was a head that had this gel-like material that was like human flesh.
	They would use it for ballistics and stuff like that.
	And a skeleton that you could see inside the head.
	And they put a red MAGA cap on it.
	And so they've got this.
	And they get a little bit closer range so they can actually make this shot perfectly.
	And they get a shot in the ear, and they come back and go, wow, I was surprised, because they had a very, very fast camera that was on it, so you could see this bullet in slow motion going through it.
	And it opened up a big hole, and I'm surprised at the damage that it did.
	And it's like, yeah, and I'm looking at these pictures, and I see red, but I don't see any hole or anything torn or anything missing, the bullet hitting his ear.
	Yeah.
	It really, you know, like I said, I don't know what to call this thing.
	We've got a lot of different theories out there about a lot of different things, but I got my doubts about all of it.
	I'm just concerned about how it's going to be used.
	And how it's being used is to really, again, ramp up everybody around Trump, for and against and things like that.
	And so this whole election, when we talk about election corruption, I used to be involved in third-party politics.
	And so I know about the ballot.
	When everybody was talking about it, I said, well, look, he put the vote-by-mail stuff in.
	And we knew about the vulnerabilities with machines and the Internet.
	We could have done something about it.
	We didn't.
	And then we add this new thing about that.
	But I said all the election corruption begins with the ballot.
	And now look at what is happening with the ballot.
	All these people who voted in the primaries, and of course they did anything they could to shut down the primaries, now they're just going to overturn all that, and they're going to do their own thing in a couple of weeks, and just hand-select candidates.
	Because it is a selection, it's not an election.
	Not at all.
	And I mean, if anybody thinks there are real elections since what you witnessed in 2020, you just aren't paying attention.
	And I knew something was very wrong.
	I've been very devoted to Trump as a candidate, as a president, prior.
	And I knew something was wrong on the 5 o'clock on January 6th, and I'll tell you why.
	He came out, I call it the ISIS speech.
	You know, when they got caught by ISIS and they threw an American in like a jumpsuit and the person would stand there and say, I'm Jim Smith and I hate America and I'm, you know, they were under duress.
	He just looked, he had that black coat on, he was in front of the Rose Garden and he said, look, we know it was stolen, but you got to go home now.
	And I'm thinking, got to go home now?
	Our country was just stolen in a coup.
	Why would we go home?
	I'm not saying violence, I'm saying whatever.
	But have a different solution.
	And if you believed you won, David, if you believed you won from the people, we the people, in the United States, the presidency, would you have ever walked out of that building?
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	And I'll tell you the other thing that made me suspicious about this event with the ear shooting.
	Look, he's been attacked before, and you've seen him taken off stage.
	They immediately surround.
	He didn't come back on after that one time, where they took him off the back of the stage.
	He didn't come back and, yeah, rah, rah.
	No, they whiffed him away, and that was the end of it.
	This one, so strange.
	You're going to raise your arm Reagan-style and expose your trunk and your underarm where they can get into your heart with a shot?
	I don't think so.
	They knew he wasn't in danger, David.
	So, I just wanted to mention that to him.
	Yeah, it was kind of funny watching Bill Maher saying, you know, wow, look at that.
	He's the luckiest guy in the world.
	Yeah.
	And he was serious about it.
	He wasn't really being cynical about it.
	But he says, yeah, he gets up there and he does this, you know, fight, fight, fight.
	And he goes, that's amazing.
	He goes, take one.
	We got it.
	You know, and I said, yeah, that's my thought.
	Exactly.
	And it's almost like they rehearsed it.
	Take one, we're done.
	It was amazing.
	To your point, I absolutely agree.
	I'm concerned about how it's being used and going to be used going forward.
	They've got them locked up, those sycophants.
	Yeah, it is strange.
	And they cannot...
	It's the, you know, when all this stuff started back in 2020, I said, you know, the entire country has become OCD. They've scared everybody to death.
	Nobody wanted to touch, you know, the pump at the gas, you know, put the gas in their car.
	You know, everybody's afraid to even do that.
	I said, the entire nation has become psychotic with this OCD stuff.
	And we have this situation with the people who are so focused on Trump And they cannot make these connections.
	You know, they absolutely hate the vaccine, but they can't and won't connect it to him.
	It's an amazing double-think, isn't it?
	It is an incredible double-think.
	The excuses that people come out actually show the pathology of their inability to make the connections.
	Like, for example, when people say, oh, he was not telling you to take the shots when he told you to take the shots.
	He was...
	He was telling you to think, look between the lines and don't take the shots.
	Go take ivermectin.
	Well, that's like four leaps.
	I don't even know how you get there.
	But it is such an incessant, just burning desire to cover for this man.
	Even when he starts to talk about making Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock, his treasury secretary?
	Well, you know, he was going to be Hillary's treasury secretary.
	Yeah.
	When she was so far out in front in 2016, they said, you know, they were talking about how they were going to fill out her cabinet.
	And it was going to be Larry Fink was going to be Treasury Secretary, just like for Trump.
	That's why I say there's no difference between these.
	You're going to get the same government because the government is going to be the personnel are going to be the policy.
	And you put these people in, you're going to get the policy of BlackRock and Larry Fink, whether it's Trump up front or whether it's Hillary.
	It just makes it easier for them to control people.
	I've told these people that when we talk about the ivermectin thing, well, you know, he tried to tell us about ivermectin.
	I said, well, why didn't he manufacture it?
	Look at all the trouble they went to to manufacture the ventilators, and they were killing people.
	He could have ivermectin was cheap to make, and it's not patented anymore.
	He could have, first of all, could have used his power to say, nobody's going to stop you from getting a prescription filled from a doctor.
	Didn't do that.
	But if he wants to take this proactive approach and make remedies from the federal government, I don't know where you find that in the Constitution, but if he wants to do that, then do it with ivermectin.
	But he didn't.
	He didn't do it with HCQ either.
	Very disappointing.
	In terms of surrounding himself with the wrong people, we saw this in 2017. It was such a disappointment after his inauguration.
	I wrote an article.
	I remember the website greatagain.gov where everybody was so thrilled he was in.
	He said, Mm-hmm.
	I mean, I wrote a second article saying, hey, loyalists, you're fired.
	Because really, anybody who was loyal to him, when I was in the Office of Presidential Correspondence in his administration, I would say, oh my gosh, isn't this great President Trump?
	We got somebody in the way.
	And a lot of them were from the Bush era and the Obama era.
	And they just looked at me.
	These were Republicans and whatever.
	And they looked at me and they said, yeah...
	Yeah, that's great.
	And they'd walk down the hall.
	I worked in the EEOB. And I thought, why aren't they happy like me?
	Yeah, because they realize that we've got taxation without representation and regulation without representation.
	That's what's happening in Washington with the bureaucracy that's permanently there.
	Yeah, you know, when you look at all this stuff and people, you know, he's trying to warn us, he's trying to get us the good stuff.
	I mean, that was the issues that I had in Infowars, why things blew up there, you know.
	I was going to tell people that Trump's got another shot, you know, and it's the good shot and all this other kind of stuff.
	It's crazy.
	And then when you look at January the 6th, You know, it was December the 14th.
	They'd already had the Electoral College votes sent in.
	And at that point, you know, they could have done something, as I've said many times to the audience, they could have done something at the state legislatures, but they didn't.
	And so at that point, it really was too late.
	But the whole thing, the whole genesis of this was just based on such incredible lies, you know, just a couple of days after the election.
	And even Steve Bannon talking about it to that group of people with the Chinese billionaire Guo, telling them, yeah, on October 31st, he said, yeah, when it happens, we're just going to tell everybody we won.
	And so that's the kind of thing that I'm concerned about, is that this election is going to be used to push us into more open conflict.
	Because they know the season that we're in.
	And most people don't.
	Everybody talks about millennial this and boomer that and all the rest of the stuff.
	But the people who came up with the term millennial and Gen Z and Gen X and everything, they had a very good theory about every 80 years everything turns around.
	And we're in the center of that, right?
	And we've only got about another four or five years for this stuff to be finished.
	And they're looking at all the institutions being changed.
	I think that's why we're seeing so much chaos and why everything is being thrown out there.
	They understand, as Fauci did when he said in October 2019, how are we going to get everybody to take a vaccine?
	He was asked at Milken Institute.
	And he said, well, we do it from the inside.
	We do it with chaos and we do it iteratively.
	That's everything that they're doing right now.
	They're deliberately creating chaos from the inside and they're continually escalating that chaos.
	Yeah, you know, you've often talked about the lockstep nature of this and that it goes across everything.
	One of the things I've been most outspoken about, and I've been unequivocal about it, is the Congress.
	And when I say all 535, I don't care who has an affection for Thomas Massey, I've already tussled with him, because he's still in the position.
	Anybody who stays there, it's like the nurses who stayed in the hospitals and the doctors.
	You are enabling this big, gigantic system to continue to kill people.
	Whether you're doing it yourself physically or not, you are enabling the system.
	And even though a few of them rah-rah, and I've gotten into private email tussles with...
	Senator Ron Johnson, happy to show those because they're actually public information, in my opinion.
	It was an official email by a government official where he feigned indignation, and I said, you're only using this for your next re-election campaign.
	You may talk and have all these hearings like Marjorie Trader Greene and some of these other people who likes to stand in her bikini, but you're not going to do anything.
	You could have hauled this company, Pfizer, Moderna, all these companies in.
	You could tie them up in discovery.
	There's a lot you can do, even as one senator or representative.
	David, I tell people, don't even look to Congress.
	I've told Brad Miller, the Military Accountability Project, friends of mine, I love my military.
	It's one of the reasons I came out in this whole thing four years ago.
	I've said, stop getting gaslighted by Congress because they're going to take you to a few parties on the Hill.
	I've been there, done that.
	Selfies with famous people.
	And you're going to go home and they're not going to do a damn thing about the military that are still under mandates in many areas of the military.
	And you know all that.
	But this is a big concern.
	And yeah.
	Yeah, we saw that with Trey Gowdy.
	You know, it's like, okay, so he's got all this stuff.
	We have ample evidence about what happened with Benghazi.
	They do nothing about it.
	But he gets all this, he gets grandstands with all this stuff.
	And then he gets a talk show gig at Fox News.
	And, you know, Jim Jordan, another one of these.
	Oh, let's hold a hearing about that.
	Yep.
	money to these people but they don't that's their key weapon and they keep funding everything including you know the foreign wars and all the rest of stuff that they complain about all they do is show these have these hearings the argument that you made in terms of enabling them as uh one that i've actually made about schools for example you know It's like, yeah, we've got good teachers, and unfortunately, many times what happens is when you have a good teacher in school, that gets people to let their guard down.
	It's like, well, you know, yeah, but maybe they are really an excellent teacher, but they can't really change that institution that's there.
	Instead, what it does is it builds people's confidence in something that is really going to rip their kids apart.
	And so I understand what your argument is there about even.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No excuse.
	Yeah.
	You stay in Congress or enabling it.
	Every Congress before them.
	The disillusionment has been so real, David.
	You know, Reagan was a beloved, we'll just take him as an example, such a beloved president.
	But like you say, he bloated up, you know, government just like the rest of them.
	He gave us pharma immunity.
	He gave us, he put that burden of compensation on the back of the American people.
	Despicable, because he caved to the pharma.
	You know, Trump, I mean, it just goes on and on and on.
	It's every president.
	It's every Congress.
	But we're living with this Congress right now.
	And I just can't stand people, like, you know, just not realizing.
	I mean, you know, it's Trey Gowdy.
	I used to say, all hearings, no action, right?
	Like Texas.
	Yeah.
	All hat, no cattle.
	You look rich, but you're not really doing anything.
	You don't have any cattle.
	And this is going to go on and on.
	And, you know, David, I take the slings and arrows every day.
	You're this, you're fake, you're that, okay?
	And then eventually, when they see that Congress has allowed this, and they've been, you know, by the way, they should be incensed that Congress exempted themselves from these shots.
	Hello!
	And there are 3,000 staffers.
	And 800,000 Chinese exchange students.
	How interesting.
	Well, I didn't know that.
	I didn't know about the Chinese exchange students.
	Yep.
	Well, that's interesting.
	There you go.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	Crazy.
	Yeah, that's a smoking gun right there.
	So what do you tell people?
	We don't want to leave people hopeless with all this stuff, so what do you tell people to focus on?
	I tell people, well, I'll let you tell people what you focus on.
	No, I mean, like I said, you're my go-to person, and everything I share with the public is literally a composite of people like you, good patriots, good Americans, and people who are intelligent enough to figure this out.
	And you're right, I don't want to leave people with doom and gloom.
	I passion up the negative, the scary stuff, because people need to wake up.
	They need to really stop going to Johnny's soccer game and not giving this more thought.
	But here's what I tell people, okay, then this.
	None of us is going to change anything at the federal level.
	It's such a behemoth.
	It's such a dangerous monster.
	We are being run by foreign and domestic enemies.
	There's every bit of evidence to show this.
	It's all out there.
	or if you just take the time to do it.
	So what does that mean?
	We all need to stay healthy mentally, physically, keep our families going, because we need to survive in order to thrive on the other side of this.
	I am hopeful, David.
	Hope is not a plan.
	I'm very much focused.
	What I'm doing in my spheres is I have military intelligence.
	I have political intelligence.
	I have all kinds of resources that I put together every day.
	And what we're all doing and talking about is, yes, I'm still going to help educate the public and do my thing a little bit, but I'm going to focus more on the solutions.
	And for me, the solutions start local.
	I've said to people, it's very basic.
	And I don't like when people throw out meat and say, oh, it's local.
	Start there.
	So let me give a couple of pieces of that.
	Look around you now.
	I know it sounds silly.
	Who's got an American flag on their home or apartment in your neighborhood?
	Who is of like mind that you already know in your family?
	You have people who hate you now because of this and people who are of like mind.
	Your neighbors, your family, your community, get your barriers set up.
	Not necessarily a fence.
	But, hey, look, if stuff goes south, look, I'm a nurse practitioner, you're a carpenter, you're an elect, okay, we're going to support each other and create an infrastructure parallel so that we can stay off of their grid as much as possible.
	Off the grid is independent.
	That's right.
	And you can protect yourselves.
	Maybe we won't see it in our lifetime.
	I don't think I'll see it.
	I'm way too old.
	Mm-hmm.
	But I do believe that it'll take a generation or two, and people will look back and say, boy, they were right.
	They understood what we're doing.
	I'm glad we followed their lead.
	Because you need to survive this oncoming thing that's happening in our government, in our country, in order to get to the other side.
	That's right.
	So, yes, you need to ask yourselves and your family, if we couldn't get to an on-grid store, For 12 months.
	Let's go the worst possible that you could think of.
	What would we eat?
	Where would we get the intermittent power?
	Electricity?
	What do we have to protect our resources that we were smart enough?
	Right?
	So you better have some firearms.
	You better have some perimeter.
	And those kinds of things.
	That gives people working things to do that will come back to serve them.
	And then just don't send any money.
	Please don't send money to the RNC or to anybody in Congress.
	Yeah.
	Please don't.
	For years, when they would send me a fundraising thing because of my registration or whatever, I would take all the paperwork and I would wrap it up in their postage-paid return envelope and send it back to them without putting anything on it so they didn't know where it was coming from.
	It's like, you pay for the postage to send this thing back.
	I love that!
	But, yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
	You know, we've got to do this locally.
	Locally, it begins with us, and we need to have alliances with people.
	We need to learn that real prepping is really about skills.
	It's not just about accumulating stuff.
	And that's what I want people to do.
	That's why I say, you know, when we look at the elections, you know, it is a big distraction.
	It is a big reality TV show, and I think it's there to distract us.
	And to move us away from the things that we could do that would really make a difference.
	And that is all local.
	All the things that are going to make a difference.
	And we still have an opportunity to do some things individually, as well as even in some areas you might have some ability to do things with local government.
	Because we saw a big difference in what was happening in 2020 with those lockdowns.
	It was a big difference from place to place.
	I traveled across the country and so that really hammered home the point to me that, you know, we need to focus a little bit more on the local area.
	There can be a lot of corruption anywhere that you go.
	I mean, we're dealing with people.
	There can be corruption.
	But there's also more of an opportunity to do something at the local level.
	Even Elon Musk tried to explain that to people that Soros was smart because he was leveraging his money on local district attorneys.
	Oh.
	And, you know, that is a very cynical thing that he's doing, but it is a good strategy because all politics is local.
	But your life is really local.
	And if you don't have this kind of relationship with other people, and I would also say relationship with God, because when I look at At Hope, I'm looking at that as a confident expectation.
	That's my grounding.
	That's what I know that I can trust on, and that anybody's going to take that away from me, no matter what happens, life or death.
	And so you've got to have a foundation, you've got to have relationships, and you've got to start building from the ground up instead of from the top down.
	That's the thing that's so annoying to me, is to see that conservatives have bought into this idea of top-down solutions from government.
	They want the government, they want the president to do everything.
	It's just amazing.
	The savior complex.
	And I like, I do want to spend a few minutes talking about, you know, the Lord and your spirituality and how important that is right now.
	Because for those people, David, who did unfortunately make the wrong choice under duress, but it's clearly the wrong choice and took the shots, that's not a judgment.
	I tell them, you must acknowledge that you made the wrong or a very bad choice, because otherwise you will fall for it again.
	If you don't believe you have the power to really choose.
	And then you can start to forgive yourself.
	I made a mistake.
	That was wrong.
	I knew I was trying to do something good and protect my family.
	But then you can then start to heal spiritually and ask God for comfort and support and miracles of healing and for forgiveness.
	For forgiveness for not recognizing the delusion that He had sent so many of us.
	That's what our relationship with Christ is all about.
	It's about a new beginning.
	And that new beginning starts with not trying to just put it away and ignore that it ever happened, as they did at the RNC about 2020. It's about confronting that and acknowledging, as you point out, mistakes so you don't make them again.
	But it's also, that is absolutely necessary that we come to grips with the uncomfortable realities that we have in life, and that includes our own uncomfortable realities.
	So that is absolutely important, and that is what is missing from so many different things.
	People will just run from these problems, and you've got to confront them.
	And he's waiting, I think, for more people to realize what this is about and to come to him.
	Ultimately, he wins and he knows what's going to happen and why we're all here.
	I think, you know, one time I heard, I was backstage and I watched Dr. Zelenko go out.
	I was speaking after him.
	And he went out on stage and after the crowd calmed down, he said something really shocking.
	He said, we are living in the greatest time in history.
	And I thought, oh my God, Dr. Z, how could you say that?
	You know, people are dying, the shots, the whole bit.
	And there was a pause.
	And then he said, because the enemy has revealed himself, and we are about to see the light overcome the darkness.
	Now, unfortunately, about a month later, he passed away from his cancer, which I have theories about.
	That's another topic.
	But I realized we're all here at this time, you know, in God's time for this purpose.
	So, everybody should try to find that purpose and look around you and see who you and what you can protect to help as many people of God's children to get to the other side.
	That's my whole feeling about it.
	Yeah, it is an interesting time that we're living in.
	That's the old Chinese curse, you know, may you live in interesting times.
	But that means that there are opportunities for us in this type of situation.
	It is a time of testing.
	We always have tests that are being given to us.
	We don't know what the purpose of it is, but really the purpose of the test is really to find out what you know about yourself.
	It's to teach you about yourself.
	You know, God knows everything about us.
	He doesn't.
	We need to know about ourselves.
	And that's really what kind of comes out of these tests.
	So it is it is a very difficult time.
	It's important time for people who are going to just do their best.
	Anybody can be mistaken.
	But we just have to do our best to tell people what is true.
	If we see something that is out there, we need to warn them about it.
	That's what I appreciate, you doing that and telling people, honestly, regardless of how it's going to be received, you know, the truth is the truth, and we have to tell people about that.
	Yeah, and I just want to say one last thing.
	In terms of warning, big, big, big warning, everybody, please.
	This mRNA, you've got Vance invested with Ramaswamy, Vivek, and Teal, and all the hundreds and thousands of people investing billions into mRNA.
	It's not going anywhere.
	So get off of the pharmaceutical grid.
	Get off of the notion, the old-fashioned.
	It's coming at us in a lot of different ways.
	And so we've got to be aware so we know what to protect ourselves from.
	And that's a whole other topic, I know.
	And of course, Ramaswamy was there in the Ohio with DeWine, one of the worst of the governors, and he was there trying to put in surveillance and tracking and things like that.
	So that's a whole other aspect of it that dovetails with all of this pandemic thing, is the surveillance and tracking.
	And that all goes back to Peter Thiel and Palantir and all the rest of the stuff.
	It's about surveillance, tracking, anticipating what people are going to do, manipulating them, punishing them in advance because they, you know, kind of this pre-crime thing, they called it anticipatory intelligence.
	It's been around for a while, but they're making it real.
	And the people who have made it real and made a fortune off of it are the ones who are supporting J.D. Vance.
	It's very concerning.
	I'm very concerned.
	And Donald Trump.
	Don't leave him out because he's bringing them all together like he brought them all together in 2020, operational warp speed, consolidating all the alphabet agencies that created this nightmare.
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Second term is going to be pretty amazing.
	Tell people where they can find you, Dr. Ruby.
	Well, I have my own show and coffee chats, which are not as benign as they sound.
	They get a little deep into information.
	On my Rumble channel, it's rumble.com forward slash drjaineruby.
	And I'm pretty active over on Twitter and Telegram, just trying to get the word out, get conversations going and things like that.
	So, really, thank you so much, David.
	It's been an honor.
	You are one of my absolute favorites and go-tos, and it's been great being with you.
	Thank you very much.
	It's an honor to have you on, and great information, and thanks for sticking your neck out there, even if you're going to get people throwing stuff at you.
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	The End
	all right welcome back and our guest is ken block and the book is disproven my unbiased search for voter fraud in the trump campaign
	the data that shows why he lost and how we can improve our elections And we're going to spend a lot of time on election reform, not so much about litigating 2020. He's got a lot to say.
	How did he get involved in this?
	He is president of a software systems company, Simpatico.
	A software engineer and entrepreneur.
	Specializes in database technologies and groundbreaking projects such as the country's first statewide debit card benefit system.
	And in Texas, he saved them a billion dollars off of the fraud and waste and their SNAP programs.
	But he said he wasn't really interested in getting involved in politics.
	But, you know, sometimes we find that politics is interested in us.
	In the past decade, he's analyzed voter data from more than 40 states.
	The few that he has yet to analyze do not provide their data to the public.
	He has served as an expert in legal challenges that involve voting data, voter fraud, and election integrity.
	So we'll talk to him about all of these things and about what he has learned as he investigates us.
	What can we do to make sure that we have honest elections that are not going to be contested?
	Thank you for joining us, sir.
	Thanks for having me.
	It's very important because a lot of people are very concerned about this, and rightfully so.
	A lot of people are ready to have a revolution if the candidate that they think should win does not win.
	And in an equally divided country like this, half the people are pretty much feeling that way.
	I saw that your foreword was written by Brad Raffensperger of the Georgia Secretary of State.
	That, you know, again over the weekend, I talked about this at the beginning of the program, Trump was furious at Governor Kemp.
	He didn't talk about Raffensperger, but they have in the past.
	And so...
	You know, he is, and I said this about him, I said it's unfortunate that he is so focused on revenge that he can't be focused on even winning, let alone on reform.
	And so I want to talk about that, but before we get into what we can do for reform, tell us a little bit about your take on what happened in Georgia where you investigated.
	Yeah, it's...
	The idea that in states that are whisker close, and we have a bunch of them.
	We have Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia.
	Michigan is not really whisker close, but close enough.
	Nevada.
	The idea that if the election goes one way as opposed to another, that the only explanation for it must have been fraud is not an accurate way to depict what happened in these elections.
	And in Georgia in 2020, there's a ready explanation for what happened.
	And Georgia is maybe in a lot of ways the closest state that we have in terms of being evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans.
	The results of the 2020 election have been gone up and down and backwards and forwards and sideways.
	And there really hasn't surfaced any credible claim of voter fraud that could be proven.
	And in my work for the Trump campaign, I was hired very specifically to do data analytics for That would stand up in a court of law.
	My job was to find enough voter fraud to matter in one of the swing states, document it, and have it be so rock solid that when it got taken to court, the other side's experts wouldn't be able to tear it apart.
	That's sort of the gold standard when you're dealing with legal challenges to elections.
	You have to have a foundation of fact in which to be successful in court.
	And the simple fact of the matter is, whether it was Georgia or any of the other swing states, while we found some voter fraud, we didn't find nearly enough to cover the margin of victory at the end.
	And the margin of victory in Georgia was roughly 12,000 votes.
	It was roughly 11,000 votes in Arizona, roughly 90,000 votes in Pennsylvania.
	And in none of those states did we find enough voter fraud to cover what those margins were.
	And so that's just a plain statement of fact.
	There were so many election challenges that failed in the court system because the nature of their proof wasn't acceptable proof in courts of law.
	Right?
	And that's just sort of a- Was there any talk about them taking their findings?
	I know that you were there to prepare the findings that they would use to argue the case.
	But did they ever talk about taking the case instead of to a court, to the legislature?
	Because I know four of these razor-thin margin victory for Biden, four of these states had Republican legislatures.
	Were they ever talking about presenting a case to the legislature to get them to acknowledge a Republican slate of electors officially?
	And then you would have had, as Thomas Massey talked about, as Pence talked about, as J.D. Vance recently talked about, to have then a court case as to who gets to decide who the electors are.
	Is it going to be the governor and the executive branch, or is it going to be the legislative branch?
	Was there ever any talk about taking the case to the legislatures?
	So I wasn't part of any strategy meetings inside the campaign.
	My job was incredibly focused, and I had 30 days to do what amounted to about a year's worth of work.
	So I was highly occupied and segmented away from everything else that was swirling around the campaign at the time.
	What I would say in general is that legislatures probably are not the best body to try to ascertain a very technical determination, which was did fraud occur and how did it occur?
	You know, many members of legislators don't have that in their background.
	So it would be my preference that if it's going to be contested, that it gets contested in a venue where they can handle highly technical presentations and digest the facts.
	And our court system does that all the time.
	Legislatures typically don't.
	So that's just from a process perspective.
	That's kind of where I'm at.
	Sure.
	In Georgia, there are three different data points that really help document what really happened in Georgia.
	And I know that in a lot of conservative circles, Secretary Raffensperger is not well liked.
	But the data that he brought forward and can document, has documented, and it's hard proof, he showed that about 30,000 GOP presidential primary voters in Georgia in 2020 took a pass on the general election.
	Oh Those are lost presidential votes for President Trump.
	And he lost by fewer than 12,000 votes.
	Now those 30,000 votes were probably moderate Republicans, call them rhinos, whatever you want to call them, who probably voted against Trump in the primary and then decided they couldn't bear to vote in the general election.
	And there was another 30,000 votes that Raffensperger brought forward and has the proof for that showed that The presidential selection was left blank, but all the down-ticket Republicans received votes.
	And again, that's a sort of symbolic protest votes by very likely middle-of-the-road Republicans who liked to down-ticket GOPs but didn't like what was at the top of the ticket.
	And that's hard evidence to overcome, and there's really no credible...
	The fraud that you can look at that comes close to having the solidity of the numbers that Raffensperger brought forward, that matches with what my nationwide findings are, and those are basically that Trump lost about 2.5% support across the board everywhere.
	In 2020, relative to 2016. And those are the rhinos.
	I'm pretty sure those are the rhinos who took a hike and left.
	It's not a lot of voters, but in a whisker close election, it was enough.
	Well, it's probably people who were not too happy with what had happened the first part of 2020. Let me ask you, you know, with the lockdowns and things like that, that kind of soured a lot of us on what was going on.
	But let me ask you about the vote-by-mail thing, because that was a function of the lockdown as well.
	And we'd never done that before.
	How did you audit or how did you view the vote-by-mail stuff?
	So we looked at the mail ballots not so much from the process of mail ballots, but were there changes to rules made to allow mail ballots to be changed how mail ballots were used.
	My role in looking at them was, were dead votes cast by mail?
	Did people who voted by mail vote twice in two different places?
	The nature of what I was looking at was those sorts of things.
	It was really a...
	Remarkable period of time in a lot of different ways.
	And honestly, I think maybe had we not had COVID, I actually believe there's a better than even money chance that President Trump would still be President Trump right now.
	I think COVID cost him dearly in this election.
	Did mail ballot use tip the balance?
	I don't think so, because I think anybody who was motivated to vote would have figured out how to vote one way or the other.
	The presumption is were mail ballots used in some nefarious way?
	Was massive mail ballot fraud happening?
	And I didn't see evidence of that.
	I mean, to commit mail ballot fraud, you're either going to steal someone's identity and vote as somebody else, or you're going to steal a deceased person's identity and do that.
	And we found a couple of dozen dead votes in most of the swing states.
	Mm-hmm.
	We found a couple of hundred duplicate votes across the swing states.
	And the campaign spared no expense on this.
	We exhaustively looked at every single mail ballot to ensure that the person in whose name that mail ballot was cast was among the living.
	What do they do to cast a ballot?
	Do they have to request it, and is it mailed to them at an address or something?
	Do they just pick it up and then mail it in themselves?
	How did that work?
	So, what's really frustrating is it's different from state to state to state.
	We're going to get into that down the line.
	In many states, you have to fill out a mail ballot application, mail it in, they verify your signature, and then when the time is right, they'll mail you a ballot that you then return.
	Right.
	That's like the absentee ballot process that we've had for a very long time, right?
	Right.
	A few states, and this happened before COVID, states like California and Oregon and Colorado, interestingly, have moved to entirely conducting their elections by mail.
	They send out mail ballots to everybody, and if you don't want to vote by mail, you have to take extraordinary actions to opt out of voting by mail and instead to vote in a different way.
	So we had a mix of those different things.
	Many states made voting by mail easier in 2020. The hardest state in the country to vote by mail is...
	I believe it's Louisiana, that has very strict usage in terms of who can use it and under what circumstances.
	So, it's all over the map.
	I didn't see any partisan...
	ballot fraud that we did find, it was pretty evenly divided by Democrats, Republicans, independents.
	And that's been the case of all the voter fraud I've documented over the years.
	I have yet to find a form of voter fraud where when it happens, it's just sort of a bipartisan activity.
	How would you audit the situation to find out if somebody was voting for a dead person?
	And I ask because a friend of my brother-in-law's in 2012, in North Carolina they have, at least at that time, they had the longest voting period of any state, and there was no picture ID. So you could just walk in and give them, you could vote early, and when you went to vote, you just give them a name and address, and there was no validation of that with even a driver's license.
	And so on election day, this friend of my brother-in-law's goes in and to register, he gives him his name and address, and he said, you've already voted.
	And so is this other person at your address.
	And he said, well, that's my mom.
	She's been dead for several years.
	So how do you audit that to know if that is happening, you know, in Georgia, for example?
	Well, so in 2020, the Trump campaign had us process every single mail ballot voter in the swing states.
	There was about 31 million of them.
	We process them through a data vendor who matches up the voter with their social security number.
	And then using the social security number, you can look at something called the social security death master file, which is the social security administration tracks everybody who dies.
	So we used that mechanism 31 million times for every mail ballot that was cast in the election.
	Like I said, we found at most a couple of dozen in each swing state.
	Not nearly enough to matter.
	I did predict, because I had done an analysis in Pennsylvania about a month before the election, I found a couple of recently registered dead voters.
	And I predicted that those would become mail ballot fraud, and they did.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, you did your research.
	You presented your findings to the Trump campaign and who had hired you to their attorneys.
	And you also reported to Mark Meadows all of your results.
	Is that correct?
	Yeah, so I didn't speak directly to Mark Meadows.
	The lawyer who hired me and who basically was my point person throughout this whole thing, Alex Cannon, he...
	The basic premise of what I did were two different things.
	I looked for duplicate votes, I looked for dead voters, and then the campaign used my company to help vet every claim of voter fraud that came their way.
	There were a lot of them from outside of the campaign.
	He asked us to vet them, determine whether they were true or not, before they would consider taking those claims into court.
	So they were operating in a very careful, methodical way.
	They asked us to review about 20 different claims of fraud.
	Some of them came in through folks like Sidney Powell and John Eastman.
	Others came through academics, just random people out there who did their own research.
	And every one of the 20 different claims that we looked at, we were able to show why it was wrong.
	When we wrapped things up towards the end of November, Cannon took the summation of everything that we had done and went to Mark Meadows and told Meadows that when it came to voter fraud, we looked pretty exhaustively at it.
	All the claims we looked at were false, and we couldn't find enough voter fraud to have changed the outcome in any election.
	And when was that presented?
	What was the date, roughly, that you presented that stuff?
	Well, so I... I didn't do a presentation to anybody.
	Every one of the claims I looked at had its own email and documentation and all that landed on Cannon's desk.
	Cannon took that all together and went and talked to Meadows, I believe, right at the end of November and gave him the summation of everything.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And so it was December the 14th that the electoral colleges, you know, the people that were selected, the slate of electors from each party that had won, submitted their votes on December 14th.
	January the 6th was a formal acceptance of all that stuff, but everybody presented that stuff on December the 14th.
	So they knew the end of November...
	They knew a couple of weeks before the Electoral College voted.
	And then, again, about another, about, I guess, six weeks or so before the January the 6th thing, they had those results in.
	What did you think about the Stop the Steal stuff?
	You mentioned that you debunked fraud claims while there was advancing the Stop the Steal initiative.
	Tell us a little bit about that.
	Yeah, I mean, so...
	As I looked at everything, I wasn't aware usually of where the claims came from.
	I was able to piece a lot of it together afterwards.
	So, you know, from the Sidney Powell, John Eastman perspective, I didn't know that the claims that I found were false, that they brought forward, came from them until about a year ago, really.
	So, it's...
	The whole problem with Stop the Steal and with a lot of...
	So many people believe firmly that the election was stolen, but that belief is based upon a set of facts that's at best really, really squishy.
	What I mean by that is the facts on which...
	is grabbing onto and says it was stolen, can't possibly ever stand up in court, usually for a really basic reason, because that reason is, it's more, usually it's hearsay evidence.
	And what I mean by that, hearsay is often defined as he said, she said type stuff.
	And our courts don't allow that kind of evidence on which to convict somebody because someone can easily be lying about that, right?
	The court systems want to see fact-based evidence that can be double and triple checked, you know, hard facts.
	And most of the evidence that people are being presented as evidence that the election was stolen is squishy evidence.
	It's not the kind of evidence that you could take to court and win.
	And that, to me, is really something that I have a problem with, because I'm a data guy.
	I take data to court, and my data survives legal scrutiny, right?
	So if you can't find data that survives legal scrutiny, I think it's sketchy to start bringing forward data that can't and then using that information to really get people amped up about what happened in our election.
	I do not believe that the election was stolen.
	I believe that the election in 2020 was lost.
	I was very skeptical of it from the very beginning, actually.
	You know, when I worked at InfoWars, I had a show there, and two days after the election, Steve Pachenik came on and said that it was a sting, that they had blockchain watermark ballots that had somehow come out of the federal government at some central location.
	But the key thing that was obviously disprovable was, he said, two days after the election, he said, we've got 20,000 National Guard that are out there arresting these people who rigged the election.
	Now, that obviously was...
	I wasn't going to go down that path.
	So we had all kinds of stuff, but it was so many people, even weeks after that, when there was absolutely no evidence of any National Guard troops or any arrests or whatever, they were still pushing that.
	So I can imagine that somebody's saying, yeah, we got pictures of, or I know personally about somebody's stuff in a ballot box.
	That's going to be much more believable than the other stuff that people were fighting about and willing to go to the mat to say, yes, there is some secret war that is going on, maybe in Germany, maybe some places in the United States where people are actually fighting and going to war over this.
	It really was a strange situation.
	One more thing I'd like to talk about before we start talking about how to reform this stuff.
	And that is the exit polls, which have kind of come in to play again with this Venezuelan election.
	The State Department has always used Edison Research, which is the exit polling organization here in the United States.
	And they use them in other countries as well.
	And they say that if the difference between Edison Research's exit polls and the official results are more than five points away from each other, that it looks like it's a rigged election.
	Now, it's just one particular company, and of course, that company can be rigged as well.
	We don't know about their integrity, but it is the company that is used for the exit polls by all of the media organizations in the United States.
	They typically don't give us, I've never seen them give us a total, and say, well, here's what they say the total is, and compare that to what the reported votes were.
	They'll give you demographic cross-tabulations, you know, how many men or how many women or this or that voted for this candidate.
	But was there ever any talk about looking at the exit polls?
	Anything about that?
	So, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned of this about a year and a half ago.
	The Trump campaign commissioned their top pollster to conduct exit polls in the 2020 election in the swing states.
	That pollster's name is Tony Fabrizio.
	And just to be fully transparent, I'm a two-time candidate for governor here in Rhode Island, and in my run in 2014 as a Republican, Fabrizio was my pollster as well.
	So I'd just like to put that out there because I'm talking about him, and I just didn't want to do that without disclosing that.
	Fabrizio conducted a 30,000 interview exit poll across all the swing states.
	And he created an internal campaign document that leaked.
	And that document made its way to Politico.com so anyone can find it there.
	But what he determined was that one out of six votes, voters that they spoke with were disaffected Republicans who chose to vote against Trump in that 2020 race.
	Another one out of six voters were brand new voters motivated to vote against Trump because of COVID.
	So that's a full third of the voters that they had identified were strongly against Trump for different sets of reasons.
	So exit polls are typically take it to the bank type things, right?
	They're usually considered to be pretty accurate, and I've not ever heard of somebody manipulating the results of an exit poll.
	I don't know much...
	Hardly anything at all about what's going on down in Venezuela right now, other than it's a mess.
	It's another one of these things, right?
	And so that kind of gets us a lead-in to some of the things that we do about how to fix this, based on your insights.
	But I think that's very important.
	I think it's very interesting that the Trump campaign did its own exit polls, and they didn't present that data.
	So presumably that data was not favorable to them.
	Didn't you, am I mistaken, did you debate Lindell on this, Mike Lindell?
	I did.
	He and I appeared on a YouTube channel about a month ago with a host named David Pakman.
	And yeah, we had about a 45 minute conversation about voter fraud and what is there, what's not there.
	And even we got into a little bit the things that we need to do to fix things.
	And I know that he held a press conference at one point in time, and Steve Bannon was there and a whole bunch of people, and Steve Bannon was just fed up.
	He said, well, we were told that he had receipts, and he goes, he doesn't have any receipts.
	He was really upset about it.
	Does he have any receipts yet?
	No.
	It's evidence-free, right?
	That's very interesting.
	It really is sad to see.
	But let's talk about what we can do to fix the election system based on what you have seen and your opinions about it.
	Yeah, so I think this is the most important thing to talk about.
	I mean, 2020 is long gone, and it's in the rear mirror.
	There's nothing that we can do at this point to alter the course of what's going to happen in 2024. It's going to be very, very similar, I believe, to what we experienced in 2020. It may be almost virtually identical.
	I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome is exactly the same, because the basic same setup is there that we had four years ago.
	The way we conduct our elections in this country is the way we've done it for hundreds of years, and it no longer makes any sense, and it causes us some real problems.
	And the biggest set of problems that we have is that different states and many times different counties in the same state conduct the same election differently.
	They have different rules.
	They have different regulations.
	They have different hardware.
	And I'll give you just a simple example of how these differences can actually affect the outcome of a specific vote.
	What do you think happens if you vote early but then die before Election Day?
	Does your vote count or does your vote not count?
	I would think that it would count.
	Depends on where you live.
	There you go.
	It depends, yeah.
	Yeah.
	So in Michigan, it does not count.
	And in 2020, the state of Michigan invalidated about 3,500 votes by voters who voted early and then passed away before Election Day.
	In Pennsylvania, if you vote early and then pass away before the election, your vote does count.
	So some of the votes that people identified as deceased votes...
	Actually counted, because in Pennsylvania, that's not an illegal situation.
	As long as you cast the vote while you're alive, if you happen to then pass away before Election Day in Pennsylvania, the vote still counts.
	So, you can see how just that one scenario causes a voter that we imagine is in this situation to have a very different experience As a dead voter in Michigan as it does as opposed to Pennsylvania.
	And let me ask you this question before we move on.
	Because when you get these ballots in, I mean, what kind of records do you have to look at an early vote-by-mail ballot to know that this person voted that ballot And voted it at that date, you know, if they're going to count it, if the person is now dead, but to know that the person made this vote before they died.
	How do you audit that?
	What kind of information do they have in terms of auditability?
	Do they know the postmark date and the person's name on the ballot?
	So they have postmark dates, they have names and addresses on the ballot application, which also goes on to the envelope that your mail ballot gets put into as you mail it back in.
	The trick is...
	Getting that information and being able to determine with certainty whether or not that voter is dead or alive.
	And most people who do these analysis aren't able to arrive at an answer that is rock-solid for sure.
	It's a big problem in Pennsylvania, you know, where it's okay if they did it and then died.
	How do you determine that?
	That's tough, right?
	Right.
	Well, I pointed out to the state of Pennsylvania through lawyers I was doing some work for in October of 2020, two registered voters who were dead, clearly deceased, identified them, and because they had registered In the last month, back in September of 2020, I said these will become very likely fraudulent votes.
	The state didn't do anything about those voters.
	They did, in fact, vote by mail as deceased voters, and it was only after the election that the people behind those votes were contacted, arrested, and they pled guilty to election crimes for casting fraudulent votes.
	In fact, it's so hard to identify whether or not someone is living or dead.
	I think that the only reasonable thing to do is to probably allow the votes, as long as you're alive when you cast the vote, I think that the vote should count because it's just so hard for states to determine otherwise inside a crazy window of time I think that the vote should count because it's just so hard for states to determine otherwise inside a crazy
	You know, and again, we only were able to do what we did in terms of identifying deceased registered voters because the Trump campaign basically provided an unlimited pile of money that we were able to spend to do so accurately.
	I guess that's really the issue, you know, in terms of how do you validate that.
	And I guess the key issue is that people have to have trust in the election.
	And so it seems to me like there needs to be different ways that they can have either transparency and have the ballots retained.
	I know that in Texas, it was kind of a standard procedure, even though it was in the Constitution that a facsimile image of the ballot had to be retained.
	You had the The guy who was in charge of the Board of Elections would send out a statement to all of the counties saying you don't have to retain it.
	And they would not retain it in a lot of these counties.
	And so that made the auditing process really difficult.
	But I think maybe, you know, a lot of people are looking at, let's just go simple.
	Let's go to hand-counted ballots.
	We know that people can always stuff stuff.
	But if you've got hand-counted ballots and you've got observers from both sides, it seems to me like you need to have something like that Where people can have some confidence that the fraud has been kept to a minimum, that there's been eyes on this, that they have done that.
	What do you think about that?
	What are your recommendations in terms of paper ballots?
	I know that's a big paper chase, but what would you say about that?
	Well, I think for sure, when you vote, the vote should be on a paper ballot so that you have a physical representation of what happened, so that you can go back and analyze it.
	Any machine that allows you to vote electronically without paper ballot backup, I think is a terrible idea, and we shouldn't be there for sure.
	Let's use Maricopa County, Arizona as...
	Sort of a proving ground for whether or not it's reasonable to count by hand all the ballots.
	So Maricopa has roughly one and a half million voters that vote in its elections.
	On your typical Maricopa County ballot, there's anywhere between 20 and 30 different races on that ballot.
	It just depends on the year and where you are in the cycle of different things, which means that in your typical election year in Maricopa, you have to if you're going to count by hand, you have to tally up 20 to 30 million different distinct votes across all the different races that are there.
	That is a phenomenally large amount of votes and no human counting effort will ever be anywhere near as accurate as a machine count can be.
	The problem and the worry about the machines is that they can be hacked, that they can be programmed maliciously before the election, that kind of thing.
	And I look at what the casino industry does.
	And in my background, I've done a lot of work in the gaming industry over the years.
	Many, many, many casino management systems have defensive software built into every one of those slot machines so that they know if the software deviates from what it should be.
	And I won't get into the technical details of it, but it's something that you can absolutely do.
	And it's something that you can absolutely bring forward into the election machine software.
	We have the ability to know with confidence what software is running on those machines.
	We should be using it.
	And as I said to Mike Lindell is one of the big, big pushers of we need to be counting by hand.
	We need to be counting by hand.
	And what I'll say is, first of all, there's just no way that you can count 30 million votes accurately by hand.
	First of all, it would take forever to do that.
	You would need an army of people conducting the count.
	And then human beings make mistakes in that whole thing.
	It is too big a job, I think, to do it manually.
	And as I said to Mike, I said, Mike, the problem is you're...
	Talking about squishy reasons to count the mallets by hand, but you actually haven't pointed out something that is an actual risk that's happened that justifies making such a big change.
	Should we harden our machines?
	A hundred percent.
	And we should have federal guidelines that all the machines have to adhere to so that we can have some confidence that they have not been hacked and that the software that they're running has been vetted and is working the way it needs to and all that kind of thing.
	That's technology that's already in place.
	I just don't see how, I mean, if you or I were to sit down and start tallying votes on a ballot, maybe we could tally, if we were working really fast, 500 votes an hour?
	Right?
	Maybe?
	I mean, you know, and now think about getting to 30 million votes, 500 votes an hour at a time.
	It tells you how big the number is, right?
	The number is probably 60,000 hours of work to get that done in Maricopa.
	And I don't think going back to the Stone Age for how we count votes is going to be a workable answer for us in this modern age.
	Yeah, again, you know, when we look at the electronic stuff, and I always talk about, and I've shown several times, the...
	An example, going back to the late 1990s, early 2000s, we have local college professors bring some kids in.
	They say, well, let's take over this machine here.
	And they put a virus on there that tilts everything according to their predetermined ratios and then erases itself.
	And so, you know, the vulnerability there, I guess, is whether or not it's connected to the Internet.
	And whether or not somebody can reprogram it with, you know, by putting a thumb drive on there and installing some software.
	How do you guard against that type of thing, that kind of custody of the machine, for example?
	So, you know, in the same way that slot machines have tremendous physical security around them in terms of surveillance, both electronic and people watching, it's the same thing with voting machines.
	The sensitive areas of the voting machine should be on the back of the machine where nobody is allowed.
	Right?
	So, if you're putting a USB key in the front of the machine and someone can close the curtains and plug something in, I mean, that's a violated rule 101 of physical security.
	You know, it's...
	There are...
	For those who understand machine security and how to make sure that the software that should be in there is in there, that's all a solvable problem.
	It really is.
	And as part of your auditing, did you have videotapes of the physical security situation?
	No.
	No, no.
	We were strictly focused on the data.
	They wanted me on the hard data that they were hoping was going to be able to go to court.
	I didn't get involved in any one specific local issue.
	And for sure, I didn't get into any hearsay claims of any kind.
	There wasn't the time to get into that.
	You know, look, there are...
	You hear a lot of people talk about election integrity, and I am a huge proponent of election integrity and making sure that the data for our elections is as clean as it can be.
	And one of the problems with having the states do their own voter registration, maintaining their voter rolls differently from each other, is you end up with some states that do a really good job at it, and you have some states that do an absolutely terrible job at it.
	And the terrible side of things, I'm going to offer up two states, New Jersey and New York.
	In New Jersey, in 2020, there were roughly 25,000 voters registered who had a year of birth of 1,800.
	Which, if you do the math, you realize that there's just no way that any human being in 2020 had a birth date of 1800. And of those 25,000 registered voters with a birth date of 1800, 8,000 cast votes in 2020. Mm-hmm.
	It's probably not.
	What happens in a lot of different computer systems, and this is happening in New Jersey's system, if they don't have a date of birth for a voter, they stick 1,800 in there as a placeholder if they didn't have anything else.
	So 8,000 voters in New Jersey cast votes in 2020 that state election officials don't know when those voters were born.
	Now, that's a problem all by itself.
	And it's one that election officials in New Jersey still haven't fixed.
	They have really, really dirty data.
	And you see all kinds of different ways that dirty data can impact...
	Registered voters and ultimately can even impact whether people should be voting or not.
	I think in New Jersey you might find maybe some of those 8,000 voters shouldn't have been voting for some reason, but the state can't identify who those voters are.
	You have to know someone's date of birth.
	identify them using data.
	And New Jersey can't do that.
	New York has a very similar problem and some worse ones.
	And I don't want to get too far into it, but there are millions of votes that happened in New York state in 2020 by voters that they cannot identify because those voters don't have a social security number or driver's license on file with election.
	That's an extraordinary thing.
	And it's a huge problem for New York election officials because they can't possibly maintain the data in their system without having that information.
	That's just two examples.
	When you move from one state to another...
	Some states are able to track down the movement and cancel the registration for when somebody moves from state to state.
	A lot of other states cannot, and so we end up with people with duplicate registrations.
	We end up sometimes with people with four or five duplicated registrations.
	There's all a manner of stuff like that that's happening, and for me as a technology professional, I can't stand the fact that our elections depend on data that at times can be extraordinarily dirty.
	And we have the technology and the means to fix this, and I think it's criminal that we don't.
	And of course, we've got a lot of jurisdictions where they want to give the vote to even non-citizens.
	So, I mean, it's like there's just this whole spectrum of what is out there.
	So, in your opinion, what's the best way to fix this?
	I mean, do you have to have some kind of...
	A national standard and some kind of inspectors.
	I mean, I think one of the reasons we have the kind of system that we've got is because there was an aversion to centralizing things.
	Because if you centralize things, now you've got one point that you can corrupt or you can infiltrate, and now you've got the entire system.
	So there's a danger in centralization as well.
	How would this work out?
	So...
	Leaving any ideology out of my answer, as a technologist, the only sane way to conduct our federal elections is with a federal voter registration database.
	If we got rid of the 50 different implementations of the voter registration that we have right now, in fact, it's way more than 50, most large states...
	of elections at the county level.
	And so in many ways, we have as many as 4,000 or 5,000 different election systems that all do things a bit differently from each other.
	Technologically speaking, the right answer, and we would eliminate most of the voter integrity issues that we suffer from if we had a federalized voter registry.
	I understand with states' rights and a whole bunch of either ideological arguments or even the security argument of, well, if you have just one, what happens?
	I don't believe that the voting should happen on a federal level with just one system.
	But I do believe that the voter registration should be done that way.
	So, if somebody hacks a voter registration system, and by the way, how many counties do you know that have high quality data employees working for them?
	Technologists, right?
	The lower down we push the conduct of our elections, I believe the more likely it is that those...
	The county level is where it's most likely that you can see successful hacking because they just don't have the technological expertise that you need as you would as you move your way up the chain to state-level technologists and ultimately federal-level technologists.
	Yeah, and of course, we've also seen the CIA and the NSA and the FBI and the military hacked as well.
	So from the top to the bottom, it's vulnerable.
	So, you know, it's a real quandary.
	So, you know, voter registration in a lot of ways is less, the danger of a hack there is lower than the danger of a hack to an actual election system that conducts the process of our election.
	Right.
	Right?
	So, I don't believe, I believe it would be wrong to have federalized voting.
	I only talk about the voter registration with an eye towards the cleanest data that we can have.
	Mm-hmm.
	We live in a society and an age where there probably isn't a computer system anywhere that's hardened well enough to prevent someone who's really determined to get at it to get at it.
	You have to watch it really carefully and you have to have the surveillance systems in place to know when it's happening and to stop it before it goes.
	You can put that sort of stuff in front of a system like if we were to do a federalized voter registration system.
	I think that that system should also have biometrics on it.
	You know, we use social security numbers as the most sensitive identifier we have, right?
	If you're working at a job, you have to supply your social security number.
	It's how you file your taxes, all this stuff.
	You have to give a social security number to any banks that you want to open up bank accounts with.
	And the problem is, hackers have every one of our social security numbers.
	All of them, right?
	They've been hacked so many times, it's no longer secure.
	I think we should replace Social Security numbers with a new identifier.
	We're the only First world country that doesn't have a national identifier.
	Well, what happens if you do a biometric and somebody steals your database now they've stolen your face?
	What do you do?
	I mean, if they steal your passcode or something, you get a new one to go get plastic surgery or to vote again.
	What do you do with that?
	To me, that's a big issue.
	And of course, you know, when we look at creating...
	You know, a lot of us have very strong concerns about, you know, creating a centralized state where we have to have some kind of a centralized ID, you know, that kind of flows into a CBDC type of scenario and other concerns about a global ID. And so that gets a lot...
	A lot of people take the safety off their gun when you start talking about that type of thing.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	But if your concern is election integrity, the biggest threat to integrity is the way we currently conduct the election.
	I mean, that's just a simple statement of fact.
	Well, let me say this, you know, as unwieldy as it is, you know, when they ran elections in Iraq, what they did was they did it on one day.
	And, you know, they couldn't tell if these people were legitimate or if they'd walked across the border, but they could keep them from voting multiple times.
	And so you would go in and you'd vote on paper, and then you would get this indelible stain on your thumb that's going to be there for the rest of the day so that you couldn't vote again.
	If we go ultra crude like that, I know it's a big hassle to count this stuff, but I mean, if people really wanted a system, they would invest the time in terms of maybe volunteering or something like that.
	I know that's idealistic, but I mean, why not go ultra low tech one day and the purple thumb?
	I mean, how many elections that way do you hear stories about a whole bunch of ballots being stuffed anyway, right?
	Even people have ink-stained hands that doesn't handle the physical security of the actual ballot box sitting there.
	You know, look, I live in a state where it wasn't all that long ago where some elected officials were arrested driving around with a bunch of absentee ballots in the trunks of their cars.
	Yeah.
	And we saw that going back to the 1960s, the reports of people driving around with voting machines in the back of their car and that type of thing.
	You're always going to have that.
	I guess the thing, for me personally, and I've talked about this, I said, what scares me about the computerized voting is that if you're able to hack the actual voting system, you know, different from the ID stuff, but if you're able to hack the actual voting system, that gives you access from a remote area to be able to manipulate things across the country, or you can manipulate...
	Manipulate from the top of the ballot to the bottom of the ballot.
	I mean, if you get in there, the payoff is so incredibly large that it really is a big honeypot for people in terms of the allure, I think.
	No differently than casino systems.
	And in a lot of ways, rigging a casino machine to walk out the door with a million dollars in cash, in a lot of ways, is probably a bigger prize than most other things.
	And the industry has dealt with that threat.
	We can deal with the threat of the hacking and the cyber attacks on election systems.
	We really can.
	It really comes down to a question of will and money.
	But I don't know how we don't insist that the same protections that go into slot machines aren't already in most of the machines that conduct our elections.
	I know some of the machines that conduct our elections do have this in there.
	They all should have it, and if we have that, I think we can all rest a bit easier about it.
	Well, that is a good analogy.
	I guess we'll end on that.
	I think there's many analogies that could be drawn between the electoral system and a casino.
	The house always wins, I think, in most cases.
	But that is very interesting, and I'm sure I haven't had a chance to read your book.
	I didn't get a copy of it yet because I wanted to get you on quickly.
	But I'm sure it is very interesting.
	I think people will be interested to see what you found in 2020 that people are still talking about.
	And more importantly, you know, what does that portend for the election that's coming up now in, I guess, maybe about 90 days or something like that?
	And what can we do?
	Certainly, there's not going to be anything that we can do to fix it between now and then, but it gives us some idea of what we can still expect.
	But then we really do need to take, I think, one thing everybody agrees, that we need to do something to make the electoral system more trustworthy, that people have confidence that their vote is counted and counted accurately.
	I think that is of paramount importance.
	I'm glad to see that you wrote a book about your experience with that.
	And again, the book is Disproven.
	My unbiased search for voter fraud for the Trump campaign and the data that shows why he lost and how we can improve our elections.
	And by the way, you can find this at KenBlock.com.
	There's a link there to buy the book and you can get information about it there.
	Anything else you'd like to tell us about the book before we run out of time?
	Yeah, I mean, look, the back of the book is the most important part of the book.
	Fixing our elections is patriotic.
	It's mission critical.
	It's the most important thing.
	Mike Lindell and I disagreed about the outcome of the elections, but we were in sync on the need to make changes to make things happen better.
	I've spoken to Republican secretaries of state.
	I've spoken to Democratic secretaries of state.
	There is a lot of over agreement, overlapping agreement.
	On some of the things that we should be doing to make our elections better.
	And we need to move beyond where we're at in terms of our discussions of elections and looking backwards and dealing with whatever happens here in November.
	To move forward, we need to have an adult conversation about making our elections better and getting to it and taking this moment in time to really improve things.
	Yeah, I agree.
	And it's not just that we would like to get the right answers, but I mean, in this time of polarization, if we don't have trustworthy elections, I'm very concerned that they, you know, be civil war over it or something like that.
	lot of talk about that on both sides and so it's having something that you trust that you can audit that is that is really key so again you've got the the second half of your book is about your recommendations for how to do that from somebody who is an expert on auditing it and you've seen the the tricks that can be pulled and so that is No system is going to be perfect.
	Any system can be infiltrated and has its own flaws.
	And so the question is, what do we do to try to minimize that and mitigate those risks?
	So thank you so much for the work that you do.
	And again, you can find this at KenBlock.com, and the book is Disproven.
	Thank you so much, sir.
	Appreciate it.
	Thanks, David.
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	�� All right, we're back, and I All right, we're back, and I wanted to talk to Lisa Hanson, who was kind enough to come on and tell us her story about what happened to her as a small business person during the lockdown.
	Under a kind of medical martial law and a governor who was one of the worst tyrants there, the vice presidential candidate for the Democrats now, Tim Walz.
	And I want people to remember what happened during this.
	They want to flush this down the memory hole, but they want to do that because they want to bring it back.
	We have to remember what happened and say never again.
	Lisa is a wife, mother, and grandmother.
	She married her high school sweetheart at the young age of 18 and never looked back, she says.
	Lisa and her husband have eight beautiful children, and by the end of the year, they will have 18 grandchildren.
	Oh, congratulations.
	That's wonderful.
	They've owned and operated businesses for well over 30 years.
	They know what they're doing.
	Most businesses, if they're going to fail, they fail within the first five years.
	You've done this for 30 years.
	So thank you for joining us, Lisa.
	I appreciate you coming on and telling us your story.
	Thank you so much.
	Tell us a little bit about your business.
	Well, thank you.
	And thank you for what you're doing.
	And thank you for coming on and talking to people because it's important we don't forget this.
	Tell people a little bit about what your business was like before the so-called pandemic.
	Oh man, it was a thriving business.
	It was located right in the heart of the historical downtown part of Albert Lee, Minnesota.
	And a thriving business.
	I say that because it was a well-loved business, not only by the locals of the area, but we did a specialty coffee, we did specialty sandwiches, pastries, specialty, even I would say specialty wine, because we had some great selection of wine and beers and A lot of fun.
	We had, you know, a little nightlife going on.
	We had live music.
	We just had the whole gamut of a really great vibe and a great experience for people just to kind of come in, turn it off, and just sit and enjoy.
	Great business.
	I know that it was a well-loved business, and I know that it was missed only because I have people still stop me on the street saying we really miss It's kind of always a dream of mine and my husband's and we kind of modeled our business after some of the European bistros that we have visited as we've had the opportunity to travel.
	So, great little business.
	A lot of fun.
	That's great.
	A lot of hard work.
	A lot of hard work, but a lot of fun.
	And you poured a lot of work, poured a lot of money into it.
	You knew the people that were there.
	And that's characteristic of small mom-and-pop businesses.
	That's the way we ran our business as well.
	We got to know the customers on a regular basis that would come in.
	And, of course, you were in an area that was a tourist area, so you had a lot of people who would pass through there.
	And then all of a sudden, you're declared non-essential.
	And that was one of the things that really bothered me.
	That happened to us once during a major storm.
	They allowed Walmart to open up, but they declared us to be non-essential, and they sent the police around to shut us down when we opened up.
	And to me, one of the key things that really bothered me about this whole lockdown is how they would say that the big Wall Street companies, big box companies that trade their stock on Wall Street, they're essential, like the Walmarts, But all the mom and pops are non-essential because most of the mom and pops are going to be involved in service businesses.
	And so they came after the restaurants, and they came after the nail salons, and the barber shops, and all the rest of the stuff that were in service businesses and said, you're non-essential, and we're going to shut you down.
	They came after Main Street while they protected Wall Street, and they called us non-essential.
	So what was it like when this all rolled out?
	What happened?
	And in contrast, Governor Walz shut down all those businesses that you just mentioned.
	And in contrast, he allowed the big box stores to stay open, the liquor stores, and the strip clubs.
	Yeah.
	Because they were essential.
	All of these businesses were essential.
	Churches are not essential.
	No.
	Oh, no.
	He shut the churches down.
	He shut the schools down.
	Yeah, it went on and on.
	It was shocking.
	We've never been through anything like this in our time in this country, which has been from birth.
	So we've never seen anything like this.
	It was shocking.
	The state of Minnesota, I think, took the path of communism.
	There's no doubt about that.
	The governor had no right or authority, I should say, to do what he did, but yet he did it.
	Andy got away with it.
	It still has gotten away with it.
	There's been no accountability for that, and there should have been.
	I believe that he has acted criminally.
	The governor has acted criminally, and he should be prosecuted.
	I agree.
	I agree.
	And the problem is that they're not doing it because everybody was on board with it.
	You know, everybody will say, well, it's the Democrat governors, and yet I look at what happened with DeWine in Ohio.
	He was one of the worst ones as well.
	He's a Republican.
	And they had practiced this for 20 years, the first one of these germ games two months before 9-11.
	Then they put out the model state legislation for the states to enact to give themselves the power because they didn't want to directly order it from Washington.
	Instead, they, you know, Trump financed the money.
	And when people were really up against it, And had lost jobs and were losing businesses and everything.
	He tries to paper it over and assuage their anger by putting out the PPP and the CARES Act.
	How did that help?
	Did that help you?
	We were hanging on by a thread, and we had really used up all of our resources as owners.
	And the second shutdown came along.
	The first shutdown happened in March of 2020. Then the second shutdown came around 2020. Now, keep in mind, we were never fully opened by the Governor Dictator Walls' word.
	100%.
	And all the while, from March all the way up to November of the second full shutdown on these particular non-essential businesses, we realized this is not right.
	He does not have the authority as we started digging in and learning because David, unlike you, I have just started learning and becoming aware of my eyes opening and really being opened in the last four years or so.
	and shocking experience trying to wrap our heads around everything that we believed, almost everything that we believed was a lie.
	Yes.
	So your eyes continue to be open.
	And at the time, what do you do with that?
	You know, when we were going through this in 2020, we did consent because we didn't know what else to do, to be honest with you, until the second full shutdown came, or dine-in restaurants being one of the businesses that was shut down.
	Ours was a 90-95% dine-in company, and there's no way that we could have survived.
	We didn't really survive.
	We were hanging on by a thread and not even really that.
	I told my husband, I said, if he does this again, if he goes...
	If he shuts us down completely, if he shuts us down at all, any more than what we already are, and we're almost done anyway.
	We're almost out of business because we've exhausted everything we've got, right?
	Right.
	You know how that works.
	You've got to have revenue coming in to be able to pay your bills, pay your employees, and Advance the business, right?
	Let's talk about how it rolled out.
	Because did he roll this out kind of gradually and iteratively at the very beginning of this?
	How did he roll this out?
	It was two weeks shut down.
	100%.
	Nobody can come in your business, right?
	Two weeks.
	But the two weeks turned into two and one half months.
	Wow.
	And then he started backing off.
	Okay, you can be 75% open.
	Okay, you can be 50%.
	25%.
	And then when November came, then it was full board.
	You're 100% shut down again.
	You can do takeout, carryout, delivery, right?
	All of those, but you can't do any dine-in.
	And again, for most businesses, and none of it made any sense.
	No, no, it didn't.
	Not even with their, you know, if you completely buy into their pandemic narrative, their virus narratives, their virology, none of it made any sense internally.
	And, you know, when you talk about a business like a restaurant, and it was similar to the type of business we were in, you know that most of your business is going to happen like Friday nights and Saturdays and stuff like that.
	So if they cut you down to 50% at your peak hours, you still can't cover what is happening.
	Right.
	It isn't evenly distributed.
	It's all clumped into the weekends and things like that.
	So if they limit your maximum capacity, they can put you out of business pretty easily, right?
	And think about it.
	Back in November of 2020, pretty much the rest of the country was opened up.
	And walls was still shutting us down.
	Obviously, there were other places that were still dealing with shutdowns as well, lockdowns.
	But Minnesota...
	We were completely done with this.
	And I told my husband, I said, we have two choices.
	We either, choice number one would be to shut down, close our business, excuse me, for us, to close our dream business.
	And to walk away.
	Done.
	And figure out how to pay off the debt, you know, even though we were not turning any revenue.
	So close our doors forever.
	Or option number two was to open up fully because why not?
	We have that right.
	I did not violate any laws.
	I'm a law-abiding citizen, a law-abiding grandma.
	And so no laws were broken.
	Um, and, uh, so we decided we took option number two, um, with the help of an organization in Minnesota that put together a plan of action.
	I thought it was a very solid plan.
	They invited all, uh, businesses that wanted to, to open up together on the same day.
	I thought it was a great plan.
	Here's what, how, you know, they gave suggestions on how this would, how we would orchestrate this.
	And, uh, If you get the call from the state, which you likely will, you're going to, here's what we suggest that you say.
	And so anyway, the plan rolled out.
	We got on board.
	I forget the exact date, December.
	I apologize.
	Did other businesses join with you?
	Good, good.
	Tell us what happened then when you opened up.
	Right, right.
	So, just a bit of a backstory, there was about 200 other businesses that said, yeah, we want to do this.
	There should have been 2,000, literally.
	But there was 200. We all opened up.
	It was...
	Marketed, for lack of a better term, that we were opening.
	So people, if you are in favor of supporting these businesses, here they are.
	Go support them.
	Go patronize them.
	Which was amazing.
	We had so much support coming from all over the state and other states as well.
	They were to support us on that first day and that whole week after.
	And then it just continued.
	So what happened, though, David, and this was the fail, 200 businesses, approximately 200, give or take, signed up to get on board.
	About within 24 hours after, there were only 10 of us that were still open.
	Everybody else had consented to close down.
	Really?
	Oh, that's the thing.
	People aren't willing to stand up for their freedom.
	Like you said, it should have been 2,000 or 20,000 or whatever.
	And, you know, of the ones who signed up, only 5% hung with it.
	That's amazing.
	It is amazing.
	And very sad.
	It was very so because now basically and I know that it wasn't, you know, again, I have some grace for for these folks and for people that don't understand because I was really forced into a position to become educated and understand more than what I had ever anticipated. I have some grace for for these folks and for And it just my education continues.
	You know, here we are four years later and I'm still learning.
	So so we we there was only about 10 of us left open and, you know, the state can handle that.
	The state can come.
	If it had been 200, the state wouldn't have been able to handle it.
	And that was the whole, you know, conversation.
	Point of doing this, but show the state we're not consenting to their tyrannical orders, which carry no weight of law.
	As Franklin said, we either hang together or we hang separately.
	Because they wouldn't hang together, you all hung separately.
	So what did they do when they came after you?
	Yeah, when they came after me, of course, they used every resource they have as the state.
	And of course, as the state, they have a lot of resources.
	Mm-hmm.
	No end to their resources.
	So I was issued a cease and desist immediately within 24 hours, I believe it was.
	And of course, I did not cease and desist.
	And then they started throwing lawsuits at me.
	So I believe I had in total five civil cases against me and two criminal cases against me.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	And so then what happened with these cases?
	So we went to court and we fought everything.
	We appealed everything all the way up to the Supreme.
	I shouldn't say everything, but most of these cases, most of the decisions, we objected.
	There was no due process for myself.
	That was completely denied through and through.
	I don't even think these judges actually even read my document all the way through or the countless documents that I submitted to the court.
	So what happened, long story short, is we went to trial on one of the criminal cases in 2021. And yes, it was 2021, December.
	And I went in front of a jury of six.
	Pre-trial determined a very terrible thing that is, again, I can't believe it still.
	I just can't believe in an American court of law.
	It was determined that I would not be allowed to present my defense, my defense being constitutional, statutory, and case law.
	All relevant, of course, to the case.
	All relevant to this mandate that the governor had considered and a lot of people considered law.
	It was not law.
	So, we fought that.
	We objected to that stipulation, of course, because I should have been allowed to present my defense to the jury.
	Yeah.
	But it was, and of course we objected to that decision that the judge had made.
	It didn't matter.
	The judge is in lockstep with all the other judges that I faced, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
	They're all in this together.
	They're in it with the governor and attorney, let's not forget Attorney General Keith Ellison, a very wicked, evil man.
	Yeah, Soros guy.
	He's one of the state attorneys general that Soros was able to get into office.
	Oh, yeah.
	Right, right.
	So they say you can't argue your case is going to shut down.
	I've seen that, by the way, in politicized cases.
	I've seen it over and over again, whether it's Ross Ulbricht with Silk Road or whether it was the Bundys.
	And I could go on and on and on.
	Marty Gottes felt they will shut down.
	You're presenting a defense.
	Did you have legal counsel?
	You had a lawyer representing you?
	Or did you represent yourself?
	I handled my own case as a sujurist.
	What about jury nullification?
	Do they have that on the books or in the Constitution, or did you look at that?
	They do, and we did look at it, and we decided not to go that route.
	I have a case that somebody interviewed about a decade ago.
	He called himself New Jersey Weed Man.
	And he was a heavy marijuana user.
	And he had a lot of it.
	And so when they came after him, they were going to get him for trafficking.
	It's like, no, man, I just use all that myself.
	For my own personal use.
	And when I interviewed him later on, as we're doing the interview, I believe it because he lights up a joint while we're doing the interview live.
	But he decided, he looked at it and he said, you know, they're going to send me to jail for a very long time.
	And so he said, I wanted a jury nullification.
	He couldn't find a lawyer that was going to do it.
	And he said, I figured that there were probably going to be some people on board.
	I looked at public opinion, and I realized that, you know, a little bit more than half the people were not really on board with marijuana prohibition in New Jersey.
	So I thought I could get some sympathy about that and try jury nullification.
	In his first trial, it is explicitly mentioned in the New Jersey Constitution, which That a jury's duty is to judge not just the facts of the case, but whether or not they agree with the law and the punishment.
	And so he had that printed, and he put it up on the desk there where he was sitting.
	And the judge said, take that down right now.
	I'm going to put you in jail for contempt.
	And so he put it down, but he said the jury had already seen it.
	And they voted seven to 12 to acquit him.
	So it was a hung jury.
	And so then the district attorney came after him a second time.
	And in the second trial, he did the same thing.
	But that judge let it stay up.
	And what was in the Constitution there.
	And they acquitted him 12 to nothing.
	So there's nothing they could do about it.
	And that's why I had him on to talk about jury nullification.
	But that's a very powerful thing if it's there.
	But again, in these politicized cases, these judges rig everything.
	I've seen it over and over again.
	Oh, it was rigged.
	And I've not seen it.
	I mean, this was my first experience.
	It was my first experience to be...
	you know, in trouble with the law, if you will, to be in a court of law.
	I had never been through anything.
	I was extremely ignorant as to how all of this rolls out.
	And boy, did I get an education, you know, learned what a way to get an education.
	But I got an education.
	And actually, I'm thankful for that today.
	But so, right.
	So, we were going on the premise.
	We had some, there were so many levels that we were hitting as far as this is unconstitutional.
	This is even not, when emergency executive order that Governor Walz issued, actually, the emergency executive order doesn't speak to the people directly to the people or control over the people or to dictate.
	The people's lives.
	Emergency executive order applied to the executive branch, applied to those that worked in the executive branch.
	And we proved that on paper using all the resources that we needed to use, and it was ignored.
	It was absolutely ignored.
	Anything that should have caused this case to be absolutely dismissed, thrown out, They just ignored.
	They did not answer any of our objections or any of our facts to the situation.
	They didn't answer any of our documents at all.
	And again, every level, every court was in lockstep with the previous court.
	I've seen that over and over again.
	Okay, so you are much more familiar with the situation.
	Well, you know, going back 30 years ago, when I was involved with third-party politics, I knew people who were also getting involved in third-party politics who had been to prison because they were tax protesters or because they were sovereign citizens or whatever, and they would talk to me about it.
	They would say, yeah, I came in, here's my case, here's what I said to them, and I made the legal point, and the judge looks at me and says, next point, we're not going to talk about that.
	And I've heard that story over and over again.
	Same thing they did to you.
	Railroading people.
	This is why I say to people, be very careful if you're going to become a tax protester or a sovereign citizen because you're not going to get a fair trial.
	You can be right.
	You can be 100% right.
	And you're not going to get a fair trial if...
	This is a political issue, and again, I've seen it on these other things like with Silk Road.
	They wanted to come after the quote-unquote dark web and Bitcoin and things like that.
	So if they've got a political agenda, and they certainly got a political agenda when it comes to the income tax stuff, they will just, the word goes out, they know what they're doing, and they're going to shut you down.
	Peter Schiff's father, Erwin Schiff, I met him.
	He was at a convention, and he was You know, standing there like Lenny Bruce after his trials for speech and everything, and he was up on a box, like a soapbox, and he's talking about his trial and going through the transcript and everything.
	So I said this, and then they just threw that out and all the rest of the stuff, but this is what the law says.
	And so I've seen that over and over again, how crooked and dishonest our courts are.
	And that's why the jury nullification thing is so important, but most people don't have the courage and the conviction I've
	had the opportunity to meet these other People in the state, and mostly women, by the way, because that's who these tyrants, you know, they go after the women.
	They love to, I mean, Attorney General Keith Ellison, you know, has a history of, you know, being a woman beater.
	That's what he's known for.
	Wow.
	Maybe he could get a medal at the Olympics for that.
	I understand you're giving him away for that.
	There was a similar case in Dallas, for example.
	Clay Jenkins was the chief elected official in Dallas County.
	They call them judges in Texas.
	And Shelley Luther, you may remember her, she had a nail salon or something.
	And he came after her and wanted to throw her in jail.
	And, of course, some other people, I think the governor may have intervened in that particular case, Governor Abbott.
	But this guy, Clay Jenkins, a couple of years prior to that, they had an illegal immigrant who had come into the country and he had Ebola.
	Oh, yes.
	And Clay Jenkins was coming in and telling everybody, it's no big deal.
	It's no big deal.
	Look, you know, we got football games coming up.
	We got Dallas and Houston are playing.
	Go to the football game.
	It's not anything to worry about.
	We got all these hospitals.
	They can treat you with anything.
	And they took this guy, and this guy did die, and he got two nurses sick.
	They had Fauci come in, Francis Collins come in, everybody said, oh, it's great, it's no problem.
	But then when Shelley Luther, and this is, you know, Ebola was serious, and they killed that guy.
	Shelley Luther says, I'm not going to shut down.
	And the same guy who was telling everybody, go ahead and do everything, comes after her, and I'm going to put her in jail.
	I mean, it's amazing how inconsistent and hypocritical they are.
	and how they will focus this.
	It was totally political.
	It was psychological, what they were doing.
	Now, did they put you in jail?
	They did put you in jail, right?
	They sure did put me in jail.
	My first time ever in jail.
	Hopefully the last.
	And it was 90 days, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I was sentenced to the full, the maximum penalty.
	And as the jury found me guilty on all, I believe it was six charges.
	So, right, it was, they sentenced me to 90. I served 60. And it was quite the experience.
	The whole thing, The whole thing was quite the experience.
	Wow.
	Hopefully never to have to repeat it again, but here we are.
	Was it local or was it state?
	You mentioned Keith Ellison.
	So is this a state prosecution where they came after you?
	Yeah, it was state, but of course now in the criminal cases, they had to get somebody in the county or city to prosecute.
	The state could not prosecute me on the criminal charges directly, so they had to prosecute.
	They ended up, I believe...
	That the county attorney, he did not take the case.
	I don't know if he refused.
	I don't know any of the details there.
	I could probably submit a FOIA and find out, but I have not done that.
	The prosecutor ended up being the city attorney of Albert Lee, Minnesota.
	And...
	Albert Lee, just, you know, here we raised our family in the area for, at that point, for about 30 years, whatever it was.
	Big family, all of our children lived in the area at that time, almost all of them.
	We had another business, which was my husband's company that we had built, a 30-year business.
	And, but that was right there in Albert Lee, and yet I was treated, I was treated as an actual criminal I had, you know, we had churched in the area.
	I had volunteered and worked in children's ministries for decades.
	So you put all this together and then the city just, you know, Yes.
	It was shameful for Albert Lee to allow this.
	They didn't have to allow it, but nobody stood up.
	I had conversations, my husband and I had conversations with the sheriff at the time, with the chief of police.
	We'd invite him in, sit down and have a cup of coffee in our restaurant.
	And they were there.
	They were with me.
	They were with me until push came to shove.
	And then they, hands off, they don't want to have anything to do with me because the judge got involved.
	And the judge signed the arrest warrant.
	And the judge was prosecuting and persecuting.
	And you're right, David.
	It was a sham.
	The whole thing was a sham.
	And my heart goes out to all those other folks that have been through these types of situations and I know some have been through a lot worse.
	You know, mine was a 90 day sentence.
	You mentioned, you know, prison sentences that are years, years.
	Yeah, and you know, it's interesting that Shelley Luther's case, and they tried to send her to jail, but they didn't send her to jail, but it made national news.
	You went to jail, and it didn't make national news, and I guess it's because it's coming from Minnesota.
	Well, Minnesota, they can, you know.
	But, you know, I tell people all the time, focus on what is happening at the local level, because the people at the local level can make it better or they can make it worse.
	We know what the Washington agenda is.
	We need to pay attention to what Trump did, what Biden did, and we need to understand what they did and understand they're not going to change anything about it.
	And that it made a big difference depending on your locality, the local people that were there, the state people that were there.
	And so, again, in your situation, the best thing to do is to just get out of Minnesota because it's so hopelessly corrupt and slavish.
	And you now live in, I think it is Wisconsin, is that correct?
	Iowa, yeah.
	Oh, Iowa, okay.
	Iowa.
	Yeah, we've stayed...
	We stayed fairly close because most all of our children are in southern Minnesota and northern Iowa.
	Well, a lot more conservative in Iowa, that's for sure.
	That is for sure, yes.
	So, Iowa still needs a lot of work, just probably like about every other state in the union.
	But, no, this is a better place to be in Iowa.
	It took us quite a while to say, okay, we need to be out of the state.
	I think the last straw for us, the convincing...
	Situation, event, let's call it an event because it was an event that took place was when certain law enforcement showed up at our door unannounced and continued to, I really can't talk about that yet because it's still under investigation, has been for way too long, but let's just put it this way.
	We know when they want you to shut up, when they want you to get out, They have ways.
	And so persecution continued.
	After I got out of jail, I immediately hit the ground running and campaigned for state senate.
	And so obviously the state said, okay, we didn't get her to shut up by putting her in jail for 60 days.
	So now we're gonna use other means to come after her and her family and it was absolutely bogus and this is all a lot of it was perpetuated on the local level I hate to say oh yeah new sheriff at that time and that more persecution I'm just gonna call it happened against us and I what do you do what do you do when you have when you have elected public servants that are not doing Yeah,
	yeah.
	I know what you mean about, you know, having the law enforcement show up and kind of have a show of strength.
	We had a situation with that.
	We had one of our particular locations, we'd had some video stores, and so people would pull up And double park and run in and hand us the videotape sometimes.
	And we did have a Dropbox that we could use, but you know, if they're doing that, we would just take that from them.
	Well, some guy decided, one of the police officers decided he was going to get a bunch of tickets, so he parked down our parking lot.
	Every time somebody would do that, he'd pull up behind him and give him a parking ticket.
	And it's like, what's going on with this?
	After he did it two or three times, I went out there and while he was giving them a ticket, I said, how much is that ticket going to be?
	All right, I'm going to give you more than that in store credits.
	And so I directly come.
	And after I did that a couple of times, he went away.
	And then he came back with the fire department.
	And they got a ladder truck.
	And they parked it in the parking lot in front of our store.
	And the firemen started taking the police officers up in the ladder truck.
	And we had customers who come in and say, what's going on here?
	And I was like, well, let me tell you about this.
	I mean, I know what that's like.
	You know, they will do that kind of stuff.
	And so my heart really goes out to you with that.
	Tell me about, did anybody else go to jail other than you?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	No, as far as I know, I'm the only one that received criminal charges.
	And a good friend of mine who also did a similar thing had the state coming against her.
	She lives in a town quite north and west of where I live in the southern part of the state, or lived.
	And their town is too small for a police department, but they do have a sheriff's office that governs their town, or protects their town, supposedly.
	And actually, I think her sheriff was a pretty good sheriff.
	He came to her one day and said, "You know, the state got a hold of me, and they've asked me to prosecute you." I've told them, "No, I won't." Good for him.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Oh, but you know, I got to tell you this, David.
	It's a real interesting story.
	You can look it up.
	Larvita McFarquhar.
	So, this is just an interesting point.
	Larvita is a colored woman.
	And an amazing gal she is.
	And our Attorney General is also colored.
	And our Attorney General made the statement.
	It's in the press.
	Something to the effect of that he was going to send her to a work farm if she didn't obey.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	And we're scratching our heads thinking, what in the world?
	Wow.
	Well, if Lala wins and Tim Walz wins, Keith Olson's probably going to get some attorney general or something of the U.S. I mean, that's a frightening idea, isn't it?
	Oh, yeah, exactly.
	You know, what about the churches?
	You said at the beginning that Walz did not shut down the strip clubs, but shut down the churches.
	How did that play out?
	Unfortunately, as far as I understand, in my local area, most of the churches shut down.
	They consented.
	And when did he let them open up again?
	Do you know?
	Oh, goodness.
	That's a good question.
	I'm sorry, I cannot give you the date on that.
	It must have been some time.
	I'm thinking it was in the fall or during that November, that second shutdown, that he, I think it was around that time or a little before that time.
	And then, wasn't it after the first of the year, I think maybe in 2022, that he kind of cleared everybody to open up again?
	But please don't quote me on that.
	I apologize.
	Yeah, my memory, I think I've tried to stuff some things away because they're so very unpleasant.
	And as we're talking and interviewing and, you know, because of this DP pick being Rawls, it's all really starting to kind of come back and talking about it is good.
	So sharing the story is an important story to share.
	And if we look at it, you know, we had a similar situation in Vegas.
	They would have let the casinos open up, but they wouldn't let the churches open up.
	So you have some people go in there and hold a church service inside of the casino to show the absurdity of that.
	And the Supreme Court signed on to that as well.
	The U.S. Supreme Court.
	It's absolutely insane.
	I remember in...
	The spring of 2020, after a couple of weeks of this stuff or whatever, there was a guy that I interviewed out of Illinois.
	And of course, Illinois, very Pritzker, very dictatorial, just like Walls.
	But he had a small church in a small town, and he never closed it.
	And the sheriff that was there was a member of that church.
	And so the governor was making threatening gestures and statements about all this kind of stuff.
	And the sheriff, as you had stories coming back from all over the country about some police departments showing up and taking down the license plate numbers of people who had violated the orders and gone to church and all that kind of stuff.
	The sheriff was there at their church with his deputies surrounding the church to protect them from the state police.
	And so that's why I tell people that story because, again, even in a situation like Illinois, kind of a worst-case state scenario, you can still have some good local officials.
	And people, you can make a difference not at the federal level, the bipartisan agreement about all this stuff, and they've worked this thing up.
	But at the local level, you can make some things better if you get the right people there.
	It's very important.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	And you know, we did our very best, we meaning myself, my family, supporters, other people who really cared.
	The current, the sheriff at the time was Sheriff Freitag, and we did our best to inform him and educate him.
	And I mean that with all respect.
	I'm not belittling him by saying that.
	He told me to my face When we were talking about the Constitution, that he says, you know, I know the First and Second Amendment, but I really don't know the rest of the Constitution well at all.
	And we thought that he should probably understand the rest of the Constitution, and he should understand the First and Second Amendment a little better.
	Somebody offered an all-expense-paid trip to Sheriff Mack's Sheriff Seminar.
	I believe those were going on in Texas at the time, like a two- or three-day seminar for these sheriffs.
	Uh huh.
	Uh huh.
	Educating them.
	in the Constitution and how to protect the people that you're serving, etc.
	Uh huh.
	He denied that.
	He turned it down.
	We also, two different parties handed him a Sheriff Mack's booklet or book on what every sheriff should know.
	And yet, when push came to shove, my sheriff was not there for me.
	He was not there to protect me.
	So that was really unfortunate.
	Very sad to see.
	But you're right.
	I believe there are...
	Yeah, that's right.
	It's important that we know, you know, when these elections are coming up, these local elections, you know, kind of get a scope as to where your sheriff is on that.
	I think that's interesting.
	His name was Freitag, which is like Friday.
	It's like a dragnet, you know?
	Here's my partner Friday, you know, Friday.
	But there's another good resource out there as well as Sheriff Mack and the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association.
	Of course, you can support that with being a part of the posse.
	You don't have to be somebody who works in law enforcement.
	You can support that effort as a posse member.
	Also, Matt Trujillo has a great book that has been very effective.
	A short book, but packed.
	A very easy read.
	A lot of information.
	It's called The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrate.
	And it takes it from a historical perspective.
	And that's also something that has been known to open the eyes of people who are in law enforcement.
	So a couple of good resources there.
	Well, it sounds like you really know your stuff.
	And thank you so much for taking a stand on that.
	If people would have stood up, it would not have happened.
	And when people finally just started quietly walking away and not complying, that's when it ended.
	And it hasn't officially ended because we haven't taken away any of these usurped powers.
	And we haven't seen anybody pay any price for any of this.
	None of the people from the sheriffs up to Fauci or either Trump or Biden, nobody has paid a penalty for any of this stuff.
	And that's why it's going to happen again.
	And hopefully this next time when it happens again, people aren't going to quietly and sheepishly go along with it.
	They will resist it, and they'll resist it in sufficient numbers to stop it.
	But thank you for standing alone, essentially, against this stuff.
	It's a horrific thing.
	As you pointed out, when you were in prison, tell people what you missed when you were in prison, those situations.
	Yeah, definitely.
	I missed Christmas with my family.
	The birth of one of my granddaughters, I was supposed to be there in attendance.
	I missed that.
	I missed my wedding anniversary, as well as a host of other, you know, events of life happenings.
	But yeah, it was a tough time.
	I'll tell you what, though, David, the Lord saw me through.
	Good, good.
	Did they make you wear a mask in prison?
	Things like that?
	Yes, they did.
	Yes, they did.
	Oh, man.
	I decided not to fight that, even though I'd never worn, you know, a mask outside of prison other than court, because they required, actually, a face shield is what they let me get away with in prison, or excuse me, in court.
	So, yeah, it was the whole thing.
	So ridiculous.
	It is.
	It's just all the Simon Says nonsense.
	It really is.
	It's just a joke, and it was a joke to start with.
	Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you, but now you're in Iowa, and I think you've started another business, is that correct?
	Oh, well, no.
	Actually, we are retired.
	Oh, okay.
	All right.
	You're retired.
	Yeah.
	We are retired, at least for the time being.
	Well, thank you so much for what you did.
	And again, if we'd had more people like you, this charade would have not gone on.
	It would have ended right away.
	People, if you don't stand up, they're going to walk all over you.
	It's just that simple.
	That is right.
	They walked all over us through those periods of time.
	And now we're cheering those people.
	And now...
	We're supposed to believe that if we don't get idiot A or idiot B, America is over.
	I'm sorry, America ended in 2020. You just haven't noticed it if you're cheering for these people.
	Yeah, it's time that everybody catches up, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Thank you so much for what you did, and thank you for coming on.
	It's great talking to you.
	Good luck to you.
	Thank you, David.
	It was a real honor.
	Thank you so much.
	God bless.
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