Danny Jones Podcast - #308 - Underwater Area 51: Best Evidence Aliens Live Deep Under Our Oceans | Richard Dolan
Aired: 2025-06-09
Duration: 03:06:37


=== Cold War UFO Claims (12:50) ===

[00:00:07]  We just had this lady on the other day who was friends with this dude that I just learned about named Joe.
[00:00:12]  I'm sure you've heard of him, Joseph Farrell.
[00:00:14]  Oh, yeah, I know Joe very well.
[00:00:15]  You know him personally?
[00:00:16]  Yeah, we're friends.
[00:00:17]  Oh, really?
[00:00:18]  I know Joe.
[00:00:18]  I just learned about this guy.
[00:00:20]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:21]  And I was just, I don't know.
[00:00:22]  I've known Joe for years.
[00:00:22]  I've learned some of this stuff.
[00:00:24]  Yeah.
[00:00:24]  What do you make of that research?
[00:00:26]  I mean, this is the title of that book.
[00:00:27]  What was it?
[00:00:28]  Swastikas and Flying Saucers.
[00:00:29]  Yeah, well, Joseph has, I don't know where he is now because he wrote his first, like, Basically, he became known as the Nazi UFO guy.
[00:00:39]  Okay.
[00:00:40]  Like that was really his original training was in, what's it called, patristics.
[00:00:47]  So studying Eastern Orthodox religiosity, like Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
[00:00:53]  He's like a bishop in the Catholic Church of Russia or something.
[00:00:57]  Yeah, I think Orthodox.
[00:01:00]  Okay.
[00:01:00]  Eastern Orthodox.
[00:01:01]  Some version of that.
[00:01:03]  But he's a really highly intelligent man, of course, and he got into studying the Nazi UFO connection and looking at the Foo Fighters, and particularly in Europe, as potentially Nazi Third Reich technology.
[00:01:17]  And so he went into that in several books.
[00:01:20]  However, you know, the real thing with Joseph, I mean, you would have to ask him directly about this, what he thinks today, but I know that he became very, very open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the UFO phenomenon over time.
[00:01:34]  Because, like, in the early years, I think it was easy to interpret all of his work as.
[00:01:38]  saying all of this phenomenon is secret tech, earthbound secret tech.
[00:01:43]  And I don't think that he's in that place.
[00:01:45]  At least the last few times that we've talked, I didn't really think that he was.
[00:01:51]  So I don't know.
[00:01:51]  You know, we're always evolving.
[00:01:52]  We're always like constantly thinking through, like, what do I think this year as opposed to last year?
[00:01:58]  And it's important because speaking for myself, I've gone to a lot of different places as to what I think is actually happening when we talk about UFOs or now UAP.
[00:02:09]  I always love talking.
[00:02:10]  Are we rolling, Steve?
[00:02:11]  Yeah, I'm wondering.
[00:02:12]  Steve, are we good?
[00:02:13]  We are rolling.
[00:02:13]  Oh, beautiful.
[00:02:14]  So I always love the opportunity when the opportunity arises to talk to somebody like yourself.
[00:02:19]  So I've only talked to maybe three, roughly three, maybe four people on this show that have been studying this topic for over 25, 30 years, like yourself.
[00:02:31]  Most people have been in this stuff just for a few years recently since the emergence of YouTube.
[00:02:37]  But I think it was like the first one was James Fox.
[00:02:40]  Then Jason Giorgiani, Stephen Greer, these types of folks.
[00:02:45]  And you, I've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of the biggest documentaries on this topic.
[00:02:50]  So it's always just so interesting to hear people's takes on this stuff when they've been studying for so long.
[00:02:59]  But for people that don't know who you are, can you just give a brief summary of how you got into this stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since?
[00:03:05]  Steve, my audio sounds really odd.
[00:03:08]  Maybe it's just my headphones.
[00:03:10]  Okay.
[00:03:11]  All right.
[00:03:12]  Yeah.
[00:03:12]  Yeah.
[00:03:12]  So I got involved in this subject a little over 30 years ago.
[00:03:18]  So it was in the like 1993, 94.
[00:03:21]  At that time, I was trying to pursue a completely different life.
[00:03:24]  I was working on a PhD in history, Cold War studies at the University of Rochester in upstate New York.
[00:03:31]  And I was very much into that.
[00:03:33]  I had previous to that, I'd studied a lot of European history, a lot of diplomatic history.
[00:03:38]  So that was really my background.
[00:03:41]  And I was in a bookstore in upstate New York, in Syracuse, actually, and I think it was 1994, and I saw on a display stand a copy of a book by Timothy Good called Above Top Secret, which is kind of a classic in the UFO field.
[00:03:56]  And it was the subtitle of that book that really caught my attention, The Worldwide UFO Cover Up.
[00:04:02]  And I was like, oh, wow.
[00:04:03]  It's like it's 1994, and I didn't know anything about UFOs, like essentially, literally nothing.
[00:04:13]  And I'd only heard, I'd seen, you know, some old documentaries.
[00:04:17]  I'd watched Leonard Nimoy on In Search of and seen some of those things, but I really didn't know anything.
[00:04:22]  And I'd only heard claims of cover up and this and that.
[00:04:25]  So I remember flipping through Tim's book, and I thought, wow, he's got some.
[00:04:29]  Like interesting documents, he had names of people that I was studying in my own research, and I thought, Oh wow, UFOs, departments that I was looking into, and uh, UFO connections there.
[00:04:42]  And I thought, You know, this is like a completely unofficial version of history here.
[00:04:47]  Is this true or is this nonsense, right?
[00:04:49]  And that was really my question.
[00:04:50]  So I bought the book, and I like the book, it's a great book.
[00:04:54]  And at the same time, I got onto what was then the baby version of the internet, uh, all of the Usenet groups, people.
[00:05:00]  Yelling and screaming at each other, but there were some good threads there, and there were a couple of people that I really learned from.
[00:05:06]  And I just went down this rabbit hole, and I thought, I'm going to spend two or three months of my life, and I want to find out, is there something to this, or is there not something to this?
[00:05:14]  Is this a waste of time, like all of the other people in the academic community were assuming at that time, or is there something here?
[00:05:21]  Because here I was, I was studying basically the presidency of Harry Truman.
[00:05:25]  I'm looking at the early Cold War, 1950, and I'm thinking, There were claims that there was a very big UFO cover up going on by then, and these were not trivial claims.
[00:05:38]  And I just thought, what I don't like is having a big question mark hanging over my head on an area where I was trying to become an expert, and I just wanted to know.
[00:05:46]  I just wanted to know.
[00:05:48]  And so I thought I'd spend a couple of months to look into it, and I got hooked.
[00:05:51]  I got totally hooked.
[00:05:52]  Like, I discovered there were some very powerful declassified US government documents that were obtained through Freedom of Information.
[00:06:01]  which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s when Jimmy Carter kind of strengthened FOIA at that time.
[00:06:10]  And so at that time, a lot of very interesting U.S. government military documents were released that they wouldn't prove that UFOs are aliens, but they did prove, absolutely proved, that these flying saucers that the government was telling the world, nothing to this, it's all hoaxes, misidentification.
[00:06:35]  They proved that no, actually, military personnel were seeing objects described as flying saucer shape, invading sensitive airspace that they were not supposed to be doing, engaging in maneuvers that were supposed to be impossible, being chased by our aircraft, and essentially playing cat and mouse games over and over again for years and years.
[00:06:55]  And then you read statements by the director of scientific intelligence of the CIA in 1952, a man named H. Marshall Chanwell, who's telling his boss, Walter Beadle Smith, director of the CIA.
[00:07:08]  That this phenomenon is being seen at such altitudes and oversensitive military installations in such a manner that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles.
[00:07:21]  That's a direct quote.
[00:07:22]  And you read that and you're like, how else can he put it other than saying, boss, I think we're being invaded?
[00:07:28]  So I read enough of these documents early on to think there's absolutely something that is at least worth investigating.
[00:07:37]  And then that opens up like a thousand other questions.
[00:07:40]  Where are the other academicians?
[00:07:41]  Where's the university crowd looking into this?
[00:07:43]  You would think if you want to debunk this, fine, debunk it.
[00:07:46]  Let's look at the actual evidence here and deal with it.
[00:07:50]  But they would never deal with it.
[00:07:52]  They would never deal with the fact that, like, why was the first director of the CIA, a man named Roscoe Helen Cotter, a member of a UFO organization called NICAP in the 1950s?
[00:08:04]  Until he clearly, under pressure, resigned in 1962, just before NICAP was trying to get congressional hearings back then.
[00:08:12]  So the CIA was created the same year Roswell happened, right?
[00:08:15]  Or was it a year ago?
[00:08:16]  No, 1947.
[00:08:17]  1947, right.
[00:08:18]  Although you could see the predecessor organization, the OSS during World War II, and then something called the CIG.
[00:08:24]  Which was in 1946 going into 47.
[00:08:27]  And then out of that, you get the Central Intelligence Agency.
[00:08:29]  That's all with the national security reorg that happened in 1947.
[00:08:34]  So, what do you think was going on?
[00:08:37]  What do you think happened at Roswell?
[00:08:40]  What I think happened at Roswell was I think there was the recovery of something that was highly exotic that we probably did not make.
[00:08:49]  You don't think it was any human manufacturing or any human technology?
[00:08:54]  No.
[00:08:55]  Because I had, so, so, um, Jason, I think you know who Jason Giorgiani is, right?
[00:08:59]  I had him on recently.
[00:09:00]  Yes.
[00:09:00]  And he was explaining to me how General Corso, I think it was, had some sort of report of the Roswell crash.
[00:09:09]  And he mentioned stuff like Velcro, Kevlar, night vision, all these human technologies being recovered at that crash site.
[00:09:18]  Yeah.
[00:09:19]  Philip, of course, he wasn't a general, but he was an officer in the U.S. Army.
[00:09:24]  And in the late 50s, early 60s, he worked under a very important general named Arthur Trudeau, where he said in his book, The day after Roswell was published in 1997, he stated, Yes, my assignment at that time was to.
[00:09:41]  We had our own little cache of alien tech, essentially.
[00:09:45]  And Corso said his job was to kind of segue that out to private industry as quietly as he could.
[00:09:51]  And he did say things like Kevlar and things like high tensile fibers and things like, I think, fiber optics, perhaps.
[00:09:57]  I think he might have said.
[00:09:58]  I remember night vision and Velcro.
[00:09:59]  Night vision.
[00:10:00]  Velcro, I forgot.
[00:10:01]  Yeah.
[00:10:04]  So, well, that doesn't.
[00:10:06]  That doesn't debunk the Roswell.
[00:10:07]  I think Corso is very much stating that Roswell did happen as something extraordinary.
[00:10:13]  But, like, so the implications of that would mean that either A, aliens use Velcro and Kevlar and night vision, or B, that it was just some man made thing.
[00:10:24]  Well, no, there's a third possibility, which is that, you know, when you're being all theoretical, because, like, I wasn't there, you weren't there.
[00:10:31]  But if you are imagining that you've got a team of brilliant human scientists studying.
[00:10:37]  This like magical alien tech that they can't figure out, they still might be able to generate some pretty interesting ideas as a result of that which might be uh variations.
[00:10:48]  You know of some of the alien tech.
[00:10:49]  I don't think that's impossible at all.
[00:10:51]  So velcro yeah, I don't really know if the aliens use velcro be kind of a handy thing uh, for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got.
[00:10:59]  Um, but other uh.
[00:11:01]  I mean, it seems to me that if you've got something as exotic as technology that theoretically could be thousands of years ahead of us or more that A, you could struggle in figuring out a lot of these things.
[00:11:15]  Material science, I think, notoriously is said to be one of the most important areas that human scientists are trying to replicate.
[00:11:24]  Material science.
[00:11:26]  Yeah, like, you know, just the other day, Hal Putoff is on Rogan, and he's talking.
[00:11:31]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:32]  And Hal has talked about the so-called meta-material.
[00:11:35]  So what is the meta-material?
[00:11:36]  It's this artifact that was sent out to Art Bell back in the day in the 90s, and then art entrusted to Linda Moulton Howe.
[00:11:46]  And then Linda, over a number of years, kind of passed it out to different scientists, including Hal Puthoff and Eric Davis.
[00:11:52]  They looked at this.
[00:11:53]  And so what they found was that it was layered with, I mean, ultra, ultra tiny layers of bismuth and magnesium and I think titanium in ways that we still do not necessarily know how to manufacture.
[00:12:06]  And so that would be the material science.
[00:12:09]  And that would be an important thing.
[00:12:11]  Like you'd need to master if you want to do what flying saucers do.
[00:12:17]  You need to have the materials that are sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do.
[00:12:21]  Or, in the case of what Howe speculated, to what was his phrasing?
[00:12:26]  He said to serve as a wave guide for high frequency electromagnetic waves in the terahertz range.
[00:12:37]  When I heard him say that the first time, I'm like, what the hell are you talking about?
[00:12:40]  But really, what it seemed like is a kind of anti gravity, anti gravitic type of a thing.
[00:12:45]  So, you'd have light or electromagnetic radiation hitting this thing.
[00:12:50]  And somehow, in some way that I cannot understand uh, it would produce a kind of effect on gravity.

=== Anti-Gravity Materials Science (02:15) ===

[00:12:57]  Wow, that right interesting, yeah.
[00:12:59]  So, in other words, this is really interesting to me because you know, normally for years and years you're thinking, how do they do anti-gravity?
[00:13:08]  Pardon me, some kind of propulsion system, some kind of engine, but no, if it's in the skin of the craft itself yeah, that's a really kind of nifty solution and maybe that's part of what they do wow Yeah, the only my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was the Bob Lazar story and how he talked about that little basketball size reactor being inside the craft or whatever, and it somehow like, repelled things away and he explained it.
[00:13:35]  It was a great explanation that made sense to my brain how basically you like you're falling through space by creating this crazy like heart-shaped propulsion pocket, right?
[00:13:45]  Oh, this is above my pay grade.
[00:13:47]  Yeah, I'm understanding it too.
[00:13:48]  But there's a couple of different theories that people have had as to how these craft do what they do.
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=== Paul Benowitz Mystery (13:38) ===

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[00:15:38]  I'll just finish answering your first question, which I didn't properly do.
[00:15:42]  How did I go and how did I get into this?
[00:15:45]  So I started, I'm looking at all of these early documents.
[00:15:49]  That's really what got me in.
[00:15:51]  So I was always a document kind of a person.
[00:15:53]  I wanted to know what was the, as far as we can understand, the classified attitude that was taken during the 1940s and 50s, especially.
[00:16:03]  That's where I started.
[00:16:05]  And I will just say, and we can go as far as we decide here, but that the conclusion was very clear that the U.S. national security community knew.
[00:16:16]  Some elements knew this was real.
[00:16:18]  This was not made by the Russians.
[00:16:20]  This was not made by us.
[00:16:21]  Someone else is operating this.
[00:16:23]  We did not have control over it.
[00:16:25]  And absolute secrecy had to be maintained over this at all costs.
[00:16:30]  Like that was a conclusion I came to pretty early on in looking at these documents and then just reading book after book after book as I was able to scrounge them up at the time.
[00:16:39]  This is back in the 1990s.
[00:16:42]  And I published my first book on this in 2000.
[00:16:45]  I self published it.
[00:16:47]  And then, yeah, in 2000, that was still a kind of a tough thing to do.
[00:16:51]  But then I got picked up by a different publisher and then that was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s.
[00:16:59]  And I have never left.
[00:17:01]  It's kept me in its grip ever since.
[00:17:04]  So your theory was that your conclusion was that the national security state knows about something that is not from this earth.
[00:17:10]  Yeah.
[00:17:11]  And has that conclusion evolved at all over the years?
[00:17:14]  Yes.
[00:17:15]  It's developed and it's deepened, I guess I could say.
[00:17:18]  I've never since then formed the conclusion that It's fake or that it's not a concern.
[00:17:27]  I've never gone there, but there's different variations of how it works.
[00:17:31]  Like I remember when I first published that book, I got an email from astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was Apollo 14.
[00:17:40]  And it was lucky for me, he was the first kind of famous person to endorse my work.
[00:17:47]  It was like, great.
[00:17:47]  Oh, wow.
[00:17:48]  Moonwalking astronaut.
[00:17:50]  But he said to me, look, your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right.
[00:17:56]  It's like he said he believed that my theory was that it's like the government and like the president's in on it and everyone's in on the secrecy.
[00:18:07]  And I don't really know if I truly believe that, but maybe more back then.
[00:18:11]  And he said, this is like, I don't know, 2001, 2002, early.
[00:18:16]  He said, I don't think it works like that.
[00:18:18]  It's very privatized.
[00:18:21]  You know, there's a lot of fingers in this pie and it's not all federal government.
[00:18:27]  And.
[00:18:28]  And so over the years, like a number of people in that crowd, including Hell Put Off and including a number of other folks, would drop me little drops along the way, little breadcrumbs.
[00:18:42]  And indicating like we've got a privatized system, like more and more you look at it.
[00:18:50]  There's government, there's classified elements to this, but there is also an element that is.
[00:19:00]  Beyond government.
[00:19:01]  Yeah.
[00:19:02]  And it's kind of nebulous.
[00:19:03]  Like, who are these guys?
[00:19:05]  Is it all think tanks and corporations or is it something else?
[00:19:08]  And I don't know the full answer to that to this day.
[00:19:11]  But that's a big part of this.
[00:19:13]  So you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy.
[00:19:17]  And to the extent that it's privatized, makes it much more of a challenge for people to use, like, freedom of information, for example.
[00:19:26]  Right, right.
[00:19:27]  Well, that's by design, right?
[00:19:28]  Yeah, yeah, I think so.
[00:19:29]  So all of that was an evolution through my years of looking into this.
[00:19:34]  I have to say, one of the biggest turning points for me in this whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of about Paul Benowitz.
[00:19:46]  The Magic Man?
[00:19:47]  Magic Man, yeah.
[00:19:48]  Oh, wow.
[00:19:49]  That was Mark Pilkington, I believe.
[00:19:51]  That one that's back in 2005, 2006.
[00:19:53]  Yeah, that blew my mind.
[00:19:55]  That totally blew my mind.
[00:19:57]  First of all, such a well-done movie.
[00:19:59]  And two, it really was eye-opening to see to the extent that the the intelligence people and the people in the Air Force, NSA, would all work together to basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something.
[00:20:19]  Yeah, that's an interesting one because to this day, the interpretation of what happened with Paul Benowitz is, that is still an open question in my opinion.
[00:20:29]  Oh, really?
[00:20:30]  Well, to the extent that why was Air Force Office of Special Investigations or CIA possibly or any of these other groups?
[00:20:38]  Going after Paul Benowitz to screw with his head.
[00:20:41]  They were.
[00:20:41]  Like a great book on this was done by Greg Bishop called Project Beta.
[00:20:47]  Project Beta?
[00:20:48]  Yeah, it's a very fine book.
[00:20:49]  I don't fully agree with every conclusion that Greg has, but he did a really excellent job and he needs, he deserves kudos for that.
[00:20:59]  But the basic question is what?
[00:21:00]  So, Paul, for people who don't know this, Paul Benowitz was a kind of a small U.S. defense contractor in the 1970s.
[00:21:08]  He lived right near Kirtland Air Force Base.
[00:21:11]  In New Mexico, and he's able to see, and by he's by the Manzano weapon storage area there, I think.
[00:21:19]  Trying to remember this now.
[00:21:21]  Anyway, so he's watching things going on over there, like bizarre aerial activity.
[00:21:25]  Right.
[00:21:26]  And he's got sophisticated tracking information, equipment, things like this to look at it.
[00:21:31]  And he's convinced that there are flying saucers or something like that happening.
[00:21:34]  And he's a good, patriotic American.
[00:21:37]  He literally wrote to President Reagan after 1981 about this, like saying, you've got to get on top of it.
[00:21:44]  And so he was becoming.
[00:21:48]  A hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at Kirtland, whatever they were doing.
[00:21:54]  So, Greg argued, and I cannot remember what the Magic Men documentary actually argued here.
[00:21:59]  I think the claim was that essentially like 30,000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation into the UFO community to poison the well of the UFO community because they knew there were Soviet spies there.
[00:22:10]  Yeah, well, that's potential.
[00:22:12]  Okay.
[00:22:14]  That's what I took from it.
[00:22:15]  There's definitely.
[00:22:17]  Espionage, and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the UFO community.
[00:22:23]  But the question is, what was Paul Benowitz actually observing?
[00:22:26]  So, was he observing advanced U.S. defense systems that were then being tested, or was he seeing something more than that?
[00:22:33]  And I tend to think that maybe a little bit of both.
[00:22:36]  I don't think it was all just that they were only protecting their own tech.
[00:22:42]  I guess that's my own position.
[00:22:44]  I think Benowitz was seeing things that were not all ours.
[00:22:48]  And I only say that because when, first of all, There were a number of other people who are associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that.
[00:22:55]  But also, when you look at the history of violations of sensitive airspace of U.S. bases across the entire U.S., this is an old story.
[00:23:05]  So it's not a unique thing, the Kirtland.
[00:23:07]  It's something that, and through the 1940s and 50s and 60s and 70s and 80s, that was all still happening.
[00:23:14]  It never stopped.
[00:23:16]  And so I think it's very premature to just dismiss it all as saying he was only looking at our own secret tech.
[00:23:22]  I actually don't believe that.
[00:23:25]  But the fact that they went in and screwed with him and convinced him that it was aliens.
[00:23:32]  And allowed him to convince himself.
[00:23:36]  That's what Richard Doty would say.
[00:23:37]  And Richard Doty was very much involved in all of that.
[00:23:40]  Wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the NSA moved in across the street and was beaming information into his house saying that the aliens were trying to communicate with him?
[00:23:49]  They were coming to Earth because their planet ran out of water.
[00:23:51]  They're going to be here in 15 years or something along those lines.
[00:23:54]  Is that Magic Men?
[00:23:54]  I actually can't remember that.
[00:23:56]  That's what I remember from the Magic Men documentary.
[00:23:58]  Maybe.
[00:23:59]  Yeah.
[00:23:59]  You know.
[00:24:02]  Maybe.
[00:24:03]  Yeah.
[00:24:04]  And then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation, which was wild.
[00:24:07]  You know, how they were doing the underground testing for, they were mining.
[00:24:11]  Is this a Myrna Hansen case?
[00:24:12]  Is that, there was a, all of this was going on at this time.
[00:24:16]  So there were cattle mutilations happening all in the mid and late 70s out in the Midwest and out in the Rockies.
[00:24:22]  And, and Benowitz, Benowitz got like really, really, really deep into this.
[00:24:29]  That is for sure.
[00:24:29]  And he hooked up with, University of Wyoming, Leo Sprinkle, who used to do hypnotic regressions of people, and there was a woman, her name was Myrna Hansen, and she was, God,
[00:24:46]  I can't remember, she witnessed the cattle mutilation, I think, cattle being lifted up, but she was also supposedly taken to an underground facility herself, and Leo Sprinkle did the regression, and Benowitz, I think, was there, And they all got really deep into this, and Benowitz.
[00:25:03]  Eventually was committed for at least briefly, for psychiatric evaluation, like in the late 80s, it this really got to him, it really messed him up and it kind of seriously damaged his life.
[00:25:15]  It's very sad and and it does seem like he was being used for disinformation.
[00:25:23]  Yes, I think that's absolutely true and and um, I wrote about this in one of my books, my second volume of history, uh called Ufos and the national security state, and my my feeling was, you look at the the mid and late 70s, And two important things were happening to threaten the secrecy of the UFO subject at that time.
[00:25:45]  One was, as we mentioned, the release of documents through freedom of information.
[00:25:48]  This was a new thing.
[00:25:50]  This had never happened before.
[00:25:52]  You know, in the 50s and 60s, the U.S. Air Force could say, we don't know anything about these UFOs.
[00:25:57]  I mean, it's a little bit, it's obviously people are making mistaken assumptions and things like this, but we're not really into that.
[00:26:05]  We have this Project Blue Book and we're not really finding any evidence of aliens.
[00:26:09]  And they could get away with that until in the late 70s, researchers were petitioning the government for documents pertaining to UFOs.
[00:26:18]  And holy cow, like they got a lot of them proving that the Air Force was lying.
[00:26:23]  They were lying through their teeth for years.
[00:26:26]  And so that was one thing.
[00:26:28]  So the Freedom of Information Act was a threat to the secrecy.
[00:26:33]  And if you're on the other side of that, trying to guard the secrets, you have to be thinking, what is our exposure here?
[00:26:39]  What do we have to worry about?
[00:26:41]  Is if they shake the tree enough, is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising?
[00:26:46]  Right.
[00:26:47]  Like, what came out was compromising enough, but anything worse.
[00:26:50]  So, that's one problem.
[00:26:51]  The other problem was this was when UFO crash retrievals were starting to become a thing in researchers.
[00:27:00]  It was all in the late 70s.
[00:27:01]  This all happened at once.
[00:27:02]  Prong number one was FOIA, prong number two was crash retrievals.
[00:27:06]  And so, we have people like Stanton Friedman researching Roswell for the first time, things like this.
[00:27:12]  But there were other crash retrievals that people were looking into or revisiting.
[00:27:17]  There was a researcher no longer around called Leonard Stringfield who back in the 70s and 80s was actively cultivating ex-Air Force and ex-military people, getting all kinds of stories about crash retrievals.
[00:27:30]  It was kind of a first.
[00:27:32]  Like no one was a magnet the way Stringfield was at that time.
[00:27:36]  And so he started to publish his research bit by bit, you know, in these tiny little UFO journals that no one was reading, but they were coming out.
[00:27:45]  And so, again, if you're managing the secrecy and if there were crash retrievals, which it looks like there certainly were, you've got to be concerned, like, how long can this go before someone actually uncovers something that's truly compromising that we do not want out?
[00:28:03]  And so the theory, and I think this is probably true, is you muddy the waters and you put out information that would sow the seed of doubt into documents.
[00:28:15]  And this is one argument about the MJ-12 documents that came out in the mid-1980s and it's possible that that's the case and uh, and then the the campaign against Paul Benowitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well.
[00:28:28]  This is like kind of the empire strikes back.
[00:28:30]  You know, you've got all of this uh, all of these threats to the empire of secrecy, and late 70s, early 80s, they make the decision in the early 80s like let's let's um, do something about that, and which is the case, like to this day.
[00:28:45]  New documents may come out and you've already got people saying, is this real?
[00:28:49]  Is this lies?
[00:28:50]  It's disinfo.

=== MJ-12 Document Debate (02:55) ===

[00:28:51]  It's amazing to watch.
[00:28:52]  It's very effective.
[00:28:53]  It's really effective.
[00:28:54]  I mean, so if they were doing, if they were going to that extent with Richard Doty and Paul Benowitz in the, it was the 80s that was happening.
[00:29:03]  Yeah.
[00:29:03]  If they were doing that in the 80s, imagine what they could, what they have the ability to do now with the internet.
[00:29:09]  It's, it's, it's highly sophisticated, obviously.
[00:29:11]  And, and very likely they've got smarter people than we do.
[00:29:16]  And they're probably many, many steps ahead.
[00:29:19]  I think it's very tough to deal with them.
[00:29:21]  Not impossible, but.
[00:29:23]  Yeah, I mean, we're going beyond UFOs here or UAP.
[00:29:27]  This is in a whole array of things, I have no doubt.
[00:29:30]  But the UFO subject, which is the one that I'm most interested in, I think definitely, you know, we're in an era now since 2017, New York Times and Politico, they do their articles at that time.
[00:29:42]  And it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more without necessarily their careers being destroyed through ridicule.
[00:29:50]  So that's good.
[00:29:51]  But to think then that the national security crowd is just gonna walk away from the table and say, Oh, yeah, here you go.
[00:30:00]  Here's all of our secrets.
[00:30:02]  Yeah, sorry about that.
[00:30:04]  We were wrong.
[00:30:05]  No, that's not gonna happen.
[00:30:06]  There's too many, far too many reasons to maintain this and to fight every step of the way.
[00:30:11]  So, what I believe is happening in terms of all of this, like this has been an argument for almost a decade now with a lot of people.
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=== Wilson and Miller Chat (15:57) ===

[00:31:47]  It's like, are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release of UFO information to serve their needs?
[00:31:58]  Or what I believe is we're looking at a factional struggle within that community where there are actually people who do believe in getting this information out to whatever extent they believe they want it out.
[00:32:11]  I'm not sure if they even want it out fully themselves, but to some extent, but there's still the secrecy group, if we can call them that, that is absolutely not resolved to that at all, not reconciled to that, and they will fight every step of the way.
[00:32:27]  Yeah, I think when I had Jesse Michaels in here, I think he told me that as far as all of the information that exists about this stuff on the internet, he was saying only 20% of it needs to be fake.
[00:32:38]  He's like 80% of it can be real, and still no one will ever know what to believe.
[00:32:43]  People will just fight about it.
[00:32:44]  That's probably right.
[00:32:46]  I think it's even less than 20% that needs to be fake.
[00:32:49]  Wow, really?
[00:32:50]  Yeah, I don't.
[00:32:51]  I mean, I think so.
[00:32:53]  Because there's always, look, you've got trolls out there.
[00:32:56]  You've got hardcore skeptical people out there.
[00:32:59]  Oh, it's crazy.
[00:33:00]  People just treat this like a religion.
[00:33:01]  Yeah, they will hammer on any little thing that just seems a little off and they'll just go after it.
[00:33:08]  And you could have, I mean, we just had this congressional briefing just the other day as we're recording this in the very beginning of May.
[00:33:16]  You had.
[00:33:17]  Oh, I missed that.
[00:33:18]  Well, it was very interesting.
[00:33:19]  So you had Dr. Eric Davis, who was hardly ever.
[00:33:21]  Oh, I did see this.
[00:33:22]  Okay.
[00:33:22]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:24]  Eric Davis, anytime he talks, you really want to listen to that man.
[00:33:29]  But why is that?
[00:33:32]  He's worked very closely for many years with Hal Putoff.
[00:33:35]  He's worked with Robert Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science back in the 90s and early 2000s.
[00:33:40]  He's the man who interviewed Admiral Thomas R. Wilson in 2002, which was a whole big thing that came out in 2019.
[00:33:48]  That was a big mess, but it was all true.
[00:33:50]  Davis meets with Wilson.
[00:33:53]  After Wilson had retired from the Defense Intelligence Agency, he had run the DIA.
[00:34:00]  And this is connected.
[00:34:01]  You interviewed Stephen Greer.
[00:34:03]  So Stephen Greer was very much a part of this.
[00:34:05]  So back in 1997, all right, Greer and Edgar Mitchell, the astronaut, and a few other individuals were going through Washington, D.C.
[00:34:14]  And Greer, you know, look, he can be very polarizing, but he was right on with this.
[00:34:21]  And I will always say this.
[00:34:22]  In 1997, Greer was like, there are black programs that are rogue, that deal with ET tech reverse engineering.
[00:34:32]  They are beyond the formal control of the U.S. government.
[00:34:36]  And so they're trying to get audiences with different people to talk about this.
[00:34:40]  And they get to meet with Admiral Thomas R. Wilson, who was head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff at that time.
[00:34:45]  This is April 1997.
[00:34:48]  And he gives a presentation.
[00:34:50]  And Wilson, and I know this is absolutely true, said, I'm going to look into this.
[00:34:56]  The head of the Joint Chiefs.
[00:34:57]  Yeah.
[00:34:57]  Well, he's head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs.
[00:34:59]  Okay.
[00:35:00]  So, or he was deputy head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs.
[00:35:04]  He then became head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs, which was head of the DIA.
[00:35:08]  So he was important.
[00:35:10]  And he goes on a two-month wild goose chase, actually, within the Pentagon's bureaucratic structure.
[00:35:19]  We can go into more detail if you want, but the short version is he finds a number, not just one, several special access programs, that is ultra, ultra secret programs dealing with ET Tech.
[00:35:31]  He contacts the managers of one of them.
[00:35:38]  And he's actually able to get a private in person meeting with them.
[00:35:42]  They are the program manager, the security manager, and the corporate attorney.
[00:35:48]  Right.
[00:35:48]  For this, it was a private contractor.
[00:35:50]  We don't know that it was Lockheed, but that's what the betting money is.
[00:35:53]  So he goes to meet with them and he says, It is your.
[00:35:57]  We're getting back to Eric Davis, I promise you.
[00:35:59]  Okay.
[00:36:00]  Wilson says, It is your oversight that I am not overseeing this program.
[00:36:07]  You need to bring me in.
[00:36:08]  You don't have, you do not have proper oversight of this.
[00:36:11]  And they are like, no, we're fine.
[00:36:13]  We don't need you.
[00:36:14]  Well, that's a real problem.
[00:36:16]  What, and he finds out from them.
[00:36:18]  I remember Greer telling me this.
[00:36:19]  Yes.
[00:36:19]  Right.
[00:36:20]  And he finds out, like, this is, they have an intact saucer.
[00:36:25]  According to what they said to him, they've made painfully slow progress in understanding it.
[00:36:31]  They had what's called the Bigot List, B I G O T, and it's an acronym deriving from World War II.
[00:36:37]  Anyway, that's the list of people who are allowed to be honest.
[00:36:39]  And it's like 500 people.
[00:36:41]  And Wilson's, is reading the list, he's recognizing very few names from the DOD.
[00:36:47]  They're almost all in private industry.
[00:36:50]  He says, no, I need to be, this is part of my purview.
[00:36:54]  They're like, no, it isn't.
[00:36:55]  He says, well, I'll complain.
[00:36:56]  They're like, be my guest.
[00:36:57]  We're not afraid.
[00:36:59]  We're not afraid of you.
[00:37:00]  He did go back to D.C.
[00:37:02]  He did complain and he was threatened with his career.
[00:37:04]  He was threatened he'd lose a star or two along the way and take an early retirement.
[00:37:08]  He got furious, but he ended up playing ball.
[00:37:13]  He, because he was there with Edgar Mitchell, and there was another Navy commander named Willard Miller who was part of this.
[00:37:22]  And Miller, these are Navy guys, Miller, Mitchell, and Wilson.
[00:37:26]  They're all Navy.
[00:37:28]  Apparently, Wilson and Miller chatted about this after.
[00:37:33]  And Miller, I guess, learned that Wilson had failed in getting access to this program.
[00:37:43]  Somehow, this got back to Edgar Mitchell, the astronaut.
[00:37:46]  And Mitchell was in with the National Institute for Discovery Sciences, Robert Bigelow, that's all these other guys, right?
[00:37:53]  Davis, Pothoff, and many others.
[00:37:57]  And so they all knew.
[00:37:59]  They all knew that there was this failed attempt by the head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs to get access to this program, and he was denied access.
[00:38:09]  So it's kind of a big thing.
[00:38:10]  Like, you know, you learn this fact, and you're like, How do we get to Wilson?
[00:38:15]  We want to talk to him.
[00:38:15]  So Wilson retires in 2002, and clearly Eric Davis, who was part of the NIDS group, he's the one.
[00:38:22]  He goes out and he interviews Wilson.
[00:38:26]  He got the scoop, and he writes up roughly 15 pages of typewritten notes of his conversation with Wilson.
[00:38:33]  I am mentioning this because someone in that group, and I cannot say who it was, unfortunately.
[00:38:38]  Oh, you know, but you cannot say about the.
[00:38:39]  I knew, I read portions of that document back in 2006.
[00:38:44]  Okay, so still CD.
[00:38:45]  Yeah, 2006 and 2007.
[00:38:47]  Six.
[00:38:48]  2007.
[00:38:50]  And then I read the portion where Wilson is telling Davis this technology was not made by Earth, not made by man, not by human hands.
[00:39:05]  In the Davis notes, it's italicized.
[00:39:08]  And I remembered reading it.
[00:39:09]  It struck me like it's very profound.
[00:39:11]  You know, this is not made by human hands.
[00:39:14]  So they all knew that.
[00:39:15]  So Davis gets these notes.
[00:39:17]  And the only reason those notes leaked out at all in 2019 was because just a year and a half earlier, Edgar Mitchell had died.
[00:39:25]  And his estate, well, it got leaked out.
[00:39:32]  So there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of Mitchell's documents.
[00:39:37]  Those documents went to Australia, and from there they were JPEG'd.
[00:39:42]  And by the early part of 2019, they were quietly circulating around, like the full notes that Davis had written.
[00:39:50]  And then it leaked out.
[00:39:52]  It leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that I. Uh, took it upon myself to do my own little YouTube video on it, and I think that's what blew it open in June of 2019.
[00:40:02]  But that's Eric Davis, like so.
[00:40:04]  Eric Davis is, and he's also part of this legacy remote viewing program, too, right?
[00:40:09]  He was a part of Put Off, he was with Put Off and Sarfati and all these SRI guys, is that right?
[00:40:15]  No, I don't think so.
[00:40:15]  No, no, and I don't think Sarfati was part of the SRI thing.
[00:40:18]  Um, okay, that's Put Off and Russell Targ.
[00:40:22]  Oh, that's it, okay, and uh, I know and adore Russell, uh, as well, he's a wonderful man, but um.
[00:40:30]  We can get into that too.
[00:40:31]  I'm not an expert in remote viewing, but my wife is a pretty damn good remote viewer.
[00:40:35]  What?
[00:40:35]  Yeah, I'm serious.
[00:40:37]  Wow.
[00:40:37]  Tracy has done some great remote views.
[00:40:40]  No, seriously great remote views.
[00:40:42]  Yeah.
[00:40:43]  But no, I've been interested in that for a long time.
[00:40:45]  Oh, it's fascinating.
[00:40:46]  It's absolutely amazing.
[00:40:47]  Yeah.
[00:40:48]  It's amazing.
[00:40:49]  And it's real.
[00:40:50]  That is absolutely real.
[00:40:52]  Yeah, it was crazy.
[00:40:53]  It was wild listening to Hal just talking about that on Rogan's podcast.
[00:40:57]  And I've had a lot of people talk about that on this show before.
[00:41:00]  And it's the way he described it with Rogan was.
[00:41:04]  It was very, very cohesive.
[00:41:06]  Like, it made a lot of sense the way he did it.
[00:41:07]  Yeah, it's absolutely extraordinary.
[00:41:10]  I'll just try to wrap up our thread.
[00:41:12]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:12]  Where were we?
[00:41:13]  Eric Davis and the recent congressional thing.
[00:41:15]  Yeah, so, like, that was.
[00:41:17]  Oh, and the reason I brought that up at all.
[00:41:20]  Yeah.
[00:41:20]  Davis is talking, and he's like, when you hear Eric Davis, as I said before, like, you must listen to this man, in my opinion.
[00:41:28]  He has a stellar reputation.
[00:41:31]  And so, on this briefing, he's talking about, like, Yeah, there's different types of aliens that I've become aware of.
[00:41:38]  And like, he's quite explicit.
[00:41:41]  Davis is saying that.
[00:41:41]  Yes, absolutely.
[00:41:43]  But what everyone jumped on was, unfortunately, and this is not to disparage Lou Elizondo because I personally like Lou and I respect him a lot.
[00:41:51]  But he put up an image of what was supposed to be a UFO.
[00:41:56]  Oh, Lou did.
[00:41:57]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:58]  It was very quickly, you know.
[00:42:01]  Debunked?
[00:42:02]  Yeah, pretty much.
[00:42:03]  It's like, you know, irrigation circles that when you fly over, it looked like a white UFO with a shadow below.
[00:42:09]  Like if.
[00:42:10]  It could look like that.
[00:42:11]  When I looked at it, I thought, oh, yeah, it looks like that.
[00:42:13]  I see these things on X on Twitter all the time.
[00:42:15]  And I just like, sometimes I just don't have time.
[00:42:17]  And I scroll right back.
[00:42:18]  No, exactly.
[00:42:18]  I saw what you're referring to, though.
[00:42:20]  Yeah, that got very quickly.
[00:42:22]  And people were just hammering on that.
[00:42:24]  But like the whole point is like, all right, people can make mistakes.
[00:42:28]  And maybe you could say like you shouldn't make the mistake.
[00:42:31]  Okay, fine, whatever.
[00:42:32]  But I don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all.
[00:42:36]  I absolutely believe he did that in good faith.
[00:42:38]  And it was just, it was a mistake.
[00:42:39]  And you shouldn't have made it, but okay.
[00:42:40]  But this is what.
[00:42:42]  Excuse me, you're hearing people focus on.
[00:42:45]  I'm talking about the skeptics now.
[00:42:47]  You got Davis with these amazing statements.
[00:42:48]  You had Admiral Tim Gallaudet during the briefing with very impressive statements.
[00:42:53]  And Christopher Mellon, who's always on point, made very good things, had very good things to say.
[00:42:58]  And more.
[00:42:59]  Mike Gold of NASA.
[00:43:02]  but they focused on this mistaken photograph.
[00:43:06]  The whole time?
[00:43:07]  Well, the debunkers.
[00:43:09]  I mean, that's what they'll do.
[00:43:13]  Rather than you look at the big picture of what these other individuals are saying.
[00:43:17]  It's white.
[00:43:17]  What did you take away from that whole thing?
[00:43:19]  Well, we are, if you think about the news stories that have come out in the last week from our, from this moment that I'm here with you.
[00:43:25]  Today is, what day is this?
[00:43:27]  May 5th.
[00:43:27]  Monday, May 5th.
[00:43:28]  Cinco de Mayo, baby.
[00:43:29]  Yeah, that's right.
[00:43:31]  Just a little over a week ago, I think Jesse Michael put out his Harold Malmgren interview.
[00:43:36]  Harold Malmgren.
[00:43:38]  Fascinating man.
[00:43:40]  This is a guy who was advisor to four U.S. presidents, including Kennedy.
[00:43:44]  Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford.
[00:43:46]  What?
[00:43:46]  Yeah, he was 89 years old and then died immediately after this interview with Jesse.
[00:43:53]  When you get it, I mean, everyone's so busy.
[00:43:56]  No one has time, but that is a hell of an interview.
[00:44:00]  And Malmgram, he got very sick immediately after this, and he died shortly after that.
[00:44:05]  But you listen to this man.
[00:44:07]  He was a brilliant economist, maybe genius level.
[00:44:12]  I mean, absolutely top-notch intellect.
[00:44:14]  And he was razor sharp during this interview.
[00:44:18]  So he was great.
[00:44:19]  Was he whacked?
[00:44:21]  I doubt it.
[00:44:22]  I mean, I don't think so.
[00:44:25]  But anyway, what he said, we see it being pulled up here.
[00:44:28]  Yeah, I touched the UFO.
[00:44:30]  That's 12 days ago.
[00:44:31]  Wow.
[00:44:31]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:32]  So anyway, we had that story.
[00:44:35]  Then we had, trying to get these in order.
[00:44:38]  Oh, Matthew Brown, who's the latest we can say whistleblower interviewed by Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp.
[00:44:45]  Very interesting guy.
[00:44:47]  And then we had put off on Rogan.
[00:44:53]  We had the congressional briefing.
[00:44:54]  And then just yesterday, there was a new one.
[00:44:57]  And I don't know how.
[00:44:59]  Powerful this is or not, but Dr. Gregory, oh man, Gregory, this was put out in the Daily Mail by Josh Boone.
[00:45:10]  No, Josh, forgive me, he's a friend.
[00:45:13]  I like him.
[00:45:15]  It'll come.
[00:45:16]  Anyway, that came out in the Daily Mail.
[00:45:18]  What was it about?
[00:45:20]  He was an Air Force major and he was a NASA doctor.
[00:45:24]  He's looking for it.
[00:45:26]  Dr. Gregory Rogers.
[00:45:28]  Rogers.
[00:45:28]  And it's by, I want to give Josh his props.
[00:45:30]  He deserves it.
[00:45:31]  Click on the link.
[00:45:31]  Maybe it'll be in there.
[00:45:34]  Scroll.
[00:45:35]  Josh Boswell.
[00:45:35]  Josh Boswell, okay.
[00:45:37]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:38]  He and Christopher Sharp, they're both very good younger journalists who do very good work on this.
[00:45:44]  Anyway, so this man, Gregory Rogers, was a NASA doctor, worked on a number of shuttle missions, and said in 1992, he's down by Cape Canaveral, I think, and he saw CCTV footage of a, he was shown this by another Air Force officer, of a flying saucer that had USAF footage.
[00:46:07]  Markings on it, US Air Force flying saucer.
[00:46:09]  He said this thing did things that we did not have the ability to do tilt at an angle while hovering, rotate this way, rotate that way.
[00:46:18]  But he supposedly, and look, this has not been vetted.
[00:46:21]  I mean, you know, but this is all just new stuff.
[00:46:24]  He said, I was, I asked him, where do we get this?
[00:46:28]  And he said the guy just pointed up and indicating it was like from outer space.
[00:46:34]  So it's a new story.
[00:46:37]  Is it true?
[00:46:37]  Is it not true?
[00:46:39]  I don't know.
[00:46:39]  But think of this.
[00:46:40]  In the last less than two weeks, all of those have come out.
[00:46:46]  Like, that's profound.
[00:46:48]  That's powerful stuff.
[00:46:50]  More than a decade ago, you would have had to wait.
[00:46:54]  Like, there would have been years in between stories like that.
[00:46:56]  Yeah, it's just drinking from a fucking fire hose.
[00:47:00]  Exactly.
[00:47:01]  So, I don't remember why I got into all this, but I asked you just like what your ultimate takeaway was from that recent congressional thing with Eric Davis and all those guys.
[00:47:12]  Well, we're looking at a kind of pile on effect, you know, with the momentum of all of this.
[00:47:19]  These new revelations, new claims, maybe might be a better way to put it, but more and more new information is absolutely coming at it at a rate that is unprecedented.
[00:47:28]  We've never, in all of the history of UFO research, and this is something I can speak very confidently about, there has never been anything like the time that we're in now.
[00:47:39]  This is unprecedented.
[00:47:40]  And where it will lead is a really good question.
[00:47:43]  Yeah.

=== Universe Math Ratios (11:21) ===

[00:47:44]  Yeah.
[00:47:44]  So over the last couple months, I mean, like my emotions on this whole topic.
[00:47:51]  Very.
[00:47:52]  It's like I ride this roller coaster of emotions on the UFO topic from being a, I get burnt out on it super easily.
[00:47:58]  Yeah.
[00:47:59]  I get like this UFO fatigue.
[00:48:02]  And then I also go back and forth between like, is it really aliens?
[00:48:07]  Is it time travelers?
[00:48:08]  Is it DARPA?
[00:48:09]  And like, you know, my recent thing has been like, this is just, this has to be all just military bullshit mixed with internet psychological psyops or just like, like, like you just alluded.
[00:48:22]  Feeding us this fire hose of misinformation just to get everyone confused so nobody can know, like it doesn't matter what the truth is, because there's just everything's out there and everyone's fighting about it.
[00:48:32]  There's too much noise and no signal.
[00:48:34]  Yeah, i'm very sympathetic to that and as far as the burnout goes, I totally i've done this for 30 years right, and my wife could tell you like, when it's after dinner time I, I almost like I have to think about other things.
[00:48:46]  I can't, I can't do Ufos.
[00:48:48]  Yeah, like in the old days I would go to like two, three in the morning, just like, and nowadays like, I do it in the morning and the afternoons and then I have to, I have to end it.
[00:48:58]  I have to have other things going on in my life.
[00:48:59]  So I can sympathize with that.
[00:49:02]  But as far as what's going on, the reason that I still very much believe that the significant portion of this phenomenon is from non human intelligence, the reason I believe that is I look at the earliest history of this, particularly the post World War II, but even there are some very.
[00:49:28]  I would say good, not perfect, but good accounts from prior to World War II that are worth looking at as well.
[00:49:35]  And so when you look at some of these early cases, and then particularly when you read the declassified documents that I mentioned earlier that are available, it's hard for me to square that with a secret U.S. black budget project.
[00:49:49]  It just doesn't.
[00:49:51]  Because all the intelligence officers that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this, and there just is.
[00:49:59]  There's nothing that I have seen that really makes.
[00:50:01]  Even you mentioned Joseph Farrell's work.
[00:50:03]  Yeah.
[00:50:03]  Were we on camera when we talked about Joe?
[00:50:05]  I can't remember.
[00:50:05]  Were we, Steve?
[00:50:06]  I don't remember.
[00:50:07]  Well, anyways, we were talking about Joseph Farrell before this thing started.
[00:50:12]  And I'm a friend of Joe's and I respect and admire his work a lot.
[00:50:16]  But I don't even think that he has made a clear cut case that it's definitely all like, you know, Third Reich tech and all of that.
[00:50:23]  I mean.
[00:50:25]  There's definitely the Horton Brothers, which was.
[00:50:27]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:50:28]  There's the Horton Brothers.
[00:50:30]  And I think.
[00:50:32]  Now, I think we're seeing more and more support for the idea of a 1933 Italian recovery.
[00:50:41]  Italian.
[00:50:43]  This is, I think, Grush talked about this, right?
[00:50:44]  Gorush talked about it, Malmgren in his interview with Jesse Michaels, and Eric Davis in his congressional briefing talked about it.
[00:50:54]  So we're seeing all these different perspectives coming in on this.
[00:50:58]  The real man who researched this is an Italian researcher named Roberto Pinotti, who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in Italian from 1933.
[00:51:11]  Interesting.
[00:51:12]  So I think, yes, this goes back farther in time.
[00:51:17]  than a lot of the American researchers, like, because we're so American-centered.
[00:51:20]  It's like Roswell, it all starts there.
[00:51:22]  Yeah.
[00:51:23]  No, no, I think there's, even in the U.S., there were prior cases to Roswell, but certainly this 1933 case.
[00:51:29]  So you think the fact that these cases or crash recoveries, retrievals, whatever you want to call them, they go back so far earlier than the 1940s.
[00:51:40]  You think that points to it being of non-human origin just because of how advanced it was and how early it was?
[00:51:45]  I think so.
[00:51:46]  That's what I believe in.
[00:51:47]  And where do you think they would have come from?
[00:51:50]  I know we're being super speculative here.
[00:51:52]  I'm just saying like if you I would say another planet another planet or or There's a couple of different ways to look at this so You know Hal Putoff wrote a very interesting paper a number of years ago on ultra terrestrials this yeah concept and it's a it's very interesting paper.
[00:52:09]  I highly recommend people read it, and And I think his take and he just mentioned this the other day in his interview but maybe there's been a group that's been here a long time that originally comes from elsewhere.
[00:52:22]  They've set up a shop in some manner, which I think is a total totally possible.
[00:52:29]  I would, I would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything else.
[00:52:38]  I mean, we can get attracted to interdimensional theories, but does anyone actually even understand what another dimension would be like?
[00:52:45]  How does that work?
[00:52:46]  How do they materialize in art?
[00:52:48]  I don't.
[00:52:48]  Maybe it's, it's possible, but I don't really understand how that's possible.
[00:52:52]  I can understand how it could be possible, Even despite the vast distances, to go interstellar, if you can manipulate space time in some way, bending space time.
[00:53:05]  We have math for that.
[00:53:07]  Gane Miguel Alcubierre in the 90s apparently came up with some version of warp drive mathematically.
[00:53:12]  The problem is finding the amount of energy sufficient to do it.
[00:53:17]  Same thing with time travel, right?
[00:53:19]  I think so, yeah.
[00:53:21]  I love Michael Masters' time travel theory.
[00:53:24]  Yeah, I don't know if I'm on top of that one, so maybe you can educate me.
[00:53:28]  But I guess I'll just say I think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me.
[00:53:39]  The fact that we would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me.
[00:53:43]  The fact that Earth would be a very interesting place also makes a lot of sense to me.
[00:53:48]  I think all of that makes perfect sense.
[00:53:50]  That if you have the ability, if you've achieved a technological capability to detect advanced life elsewhere, which I don't.
[00:54:00]  See that as impossible at all.
[00:54:02]  I mean, we're already looking at exoplanetary systems and looking for life signatures, and we just started with this business.
[00:54:09]  So, if you've been doing this for a thousand years or more, maybe you can detect consciousness.
[00:54:15]  You know, you can go, we talked about remote viewing.
[00:54:18]  Could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness?
[00:54:21]  I don't know.
[00:54:21]  Maybe they can.
[00:54:22]  Or maybe there are other technologies that we just haven't envisioned.
[00:54:26]  So, they could find us, and then could they get to us?
[00:54:29]  Yeah, probably.
[00:54:29]  I don't see why not, at least in theory.
[00:54:32]  I think it could be entirely possible.
[00:54:34]  And we would be interesting because, A, there could be a lot of life in this universe, but how common, really, would planets like ours be?
[00:54:46]  We have, we're in the Goldilocks zone, but it takes a lot more than that.
[00:54:51]  Right.
[00:54:52]  We have, the moon is in the sun.
[00:54:53]  We have the moon.
[00:54:54]  Incredible.
[00:54:55]  Which is, it's, what's the word?
[00:54:59]  It's the perfect terraforming device.
[00:55:01]  It's one, I think it's 120th the size of the sun.
[00:55:05]  And 120th the distance from the sun.
[00:55:07]  I think I'm getting that math wrong.
[00:55:08]  Oh, it's a lot less than 120th the sun.
[00:55:10]  Maybe I'm getting that math wrong, Steve.
[00:55:11]  Maybe you can correct me with the fractions there.
[00:55:14]  Anyways, the fractions are exact.
[00:55:15]  The exact size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun is equal.
[00:55:21]  So it creates that perfect eclipse.
[00:55:23]  And so that makes.
[00:55:24]  Yeah, that's actually an amazing thing.
[00:55:27]  If that's a significant part, the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very significant.
[00:55:33]  It's always got one side turned to the earth.
[00:55:35]  I can't remember the word for that, but that.
[00:55:38]  Could be significant.
[00:55:39]  Titally locked.
[00:55:40]  Yeah, Todd, thank you.
[00:55:40]  Steve, what's the fractions of the distance, the distance ratio and the size ratio?
[00:55:44]  Find that.
[00:55:45]  And then it is the perfect terraforming device for us.
[00:55:51]  And yeah, it's sun size and distance ratio.
[00:55:55]  There you go.
[00:55:56]  You can figure that out.
[00:55:57]  Let us know, Steve.
[00:55:59]  That's your homework assignment.
[00:56:00]  But we also have water and land.
[00:56:03]  But we're not completely covered in water either.
[00:56:06]  So we have enough water for life to evolve in the water.
[00:56:10]  But then we have enough land.
[00:56:12]  Out of the water, that life can crawl up and evolve on land.
[00:56:17]  You know, I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing right there.
[00:56:21]  And we've had enough stability over hundreds of millions of years that we can allow complex life to develop on land.
[00:56:29]  And I mean, yeah, that can't be very common.
[00:56:34]  Now, the universe is big enough that you could think, all right, maybe one out of a million systems might have something like this or whatever it is.
[00:56:41]  And that could still be enough to develop advanced life, which I think.
[00:56:46]  I've come to believe, I'm not an expert in this at all, but I tend to think that life anywhere is going naturally to want to increase its complexity just because life competes with other life for resources and energy and food, and that intelligence is one necessary evolutionary adaptation that would be useful for any life form and not just humans.
[00:57:13]  Dinosaurs were intelligent, hell.
[00:57:15]  Not maybe compared to us, but compared to previous life forms, they probably were.
[00:57:19]  Intelligence is always.
[00:57:20]  increasing.
[00:57:21]  Yes.
[00:57:22]  And, you know, our body plan just allowed us to hit the sweet spot.
[00:57:27]  We developed these hands that can do things and manipulate our environment and that further increased our intelligence, I believe.
[00:57:32]  So I think life naturally will do that given the proper conditions.
[00:57:38]  Right.
[00:57:39]  And I'm going to guess that, you know, in enough parts of the universe, those conditions have existed so that you then develop life.
[00:57:45]  And then it gets to the critical point where it develops its own ability to kind of manage itself, which where maybe kind of doing and we're developing artificial, you know, strong Ai and uh, all the other technologies that'll go along with it nanotech, and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy diabolical mixture will come out of all of that.
[00:58:07]  And I think that that's probably what what other life forms have done, because I, I suspect that that what life, what intelligent life, will do, is it is guided by the requirements Of constantly developing that intelligence.
[00:58:27]  In other words, it's not about like our society isn't about the human race anymore.
[00:58:33]  It's really about meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated, digitally advanced, artificially intelligent system of which we are now just a part.
[00:58:45]  Like we think it's working for us, but I think we're serving the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and that intelligence will just kind of take off on its own.
[00:58:57]  Because I think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor, not necessarily our biological contribution to it.
[00:59:04]  Interesting.
[00:59:05]  Yeah.

=== Human Evolution Speed (02:17) ===

[00:59:06]  I mean, I don't know if anyone actually ever thinks that or if I'm the only person, but this is what I've come to believe.
[00:59:11]  Like we serve, we serve the system that we have helped to create.
[00:59:17]  But really, we're just, we are simply actors or we're just.
[00:59:23]  We're the caterpillar.
[00:59:24]  Yeah.
[00:59:25]  We're like the servants of, of what high intelligence demands.
[00:59:30]  And we, that's what we're doing.
[00:59:32]  What do you think we look like?
[00:59:34]  What do you think human beings or what comes out of human beings ends up being in like 50 to 100 years?
[00:59:41]  Well, it all depends on.
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=== Atrophied Senses Theory (12:41) ===

[01:01:23]  You know, because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in.
[01:01:27]  And we are now radically changing our own environment technologically in all different ways.
[01:01:34]  And so clearly you're seeing.
[01:01:37]  Probably a speeding up of human evolution is probably happening.
[01:01:42]  I think it is.
[01:01:44]  Experts would be better able to say this than me, but I think it's quite.
[01:01:48]  I mean, look, even in the last.
[01:01:49]  It's technology, right?
[01:01:50]  Yeah, in the last 10,000 years, we're not the same as we were back then.
[01:01:54]  And we've domesticated ourselves.
[01:01:56]  It's just like you look at domesticated sheep as opposed to wild sheep, well, domesticated humans as opposed to wild humans before we started settling in large communities and societies roughly 10,000 years ago.
[01:02:08]  So we're going on a path.
[01:02:10]  So what we're going to look like, you know, the problem with our future is that every new technological leap you make, whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working at, you know, getting to AGI and whatever else we're going to get to, means that you become dependent on that for your species survival.
[01:02:37]  Like, honestly, like once we've had fire for like a couple hundred thousand years.
[01:02:42]  Right.
[01:02:42]  It would be very difficult to probably for those people to survive without it.
[01:02:46]  Yes, because you become dependent on it.
[01:02:48]  And then not only that, but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all these other technologies, because we have to maintain the fire, we have to protect the fire, we have to Find and process the right kinds of wood, like all of that that that prompts further Intellectual development, same with stone tools and all that.
[01:03:10]  So once you develop that, you have to maintain it.
[01:03:13]  And now we're so, So deeply embedded in our technology.
[01:03:17]  Can you imagine?
[01:03:18]  You know, Spain and Portugal just went without electricity for five hours last week.
[01:03:23]  I have a sister who lives in Seville.
[01:03:25]  Trust me, I live in Florida.
[01:03:26]  I had to go through a lot of hurricanes.
[01:03:28]  There you go.
[01:03:28]  Exactly.
[01:03:29]  So, but they were like, they were freaking out, man.
[01:03:33]  They were not happy.
[01:03:34]  So imagine if we had to go without electricity.
[01:03:37]  Forget internet, just electricity.
[01:03:39]  Yeah, it sucks.
[01:03:40]  Well, it's even worse.
[01:03:41]  For a week, two weeks, a month, forever.
[01:03:44]  It would suck.
[01:03:45]  It would more than suck because most people would probably not live.
[01:03:49]  You know, going back to this, you know, this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings is really something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
[01:03:57]  And it really came, it was interesting because I think Hal and Rogan touched on it a little bit on their conversation.
[01:04:04]  But, you know, one of the ideas that I've been throwing around is the idea of like this ESP telekinesis, having these senses that are not apparent in everybody, but they're kind of like, Extra.
[01:04:21]  Some people have them more than other people.
[01:04:25]  And especially when it comes to things like remote viewing and ESP.
[01:04:28]  So, like ancient human beings, right?
[01:04:31]  Before we had the development of language, before we had the technology to record memories externally, and when we constantly were trying to avoid predators to stay alive, and before we had anything, like I'm sure we had some sort of.
[01:04:51]  Extra senses that have atrophied since we've developed language, since we've developed computers.
[01:04:57]  We don't have to memorize shit anymore.
[01:04:58]  Everything's on a computer or an iPhone.
[01:05:00]  You know what I mean?
[01:05:01]  Absolutely.
[01:05:01]  So I feel like that is radically, we have senses that are radically have been diminished and atrophied over millennia.
[01:05:10]  My wife and I talk about this a lot.
[01:05:11]  This is like one of our pet theories that we've been hashing around for a couple of years.
[01:05:16]  Excuse me, I totally believe that that's the case.
[01:05:18]  We actually are, the brain capacity of the human being today is less.
[01:05:24]  Than it was among our ancestors, even more than 10,000 years ago.
[01:05:28]  I think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no, more than that.
[01:05:32]  I think maybe a baseball amount of a brain.
[01:05:37]  We have less, we have a little bit less.
[01:05:39]  And that doesn't mean that we're less intelligent, it just means that domestication has enabled us to need less because the brain's expensive.
[01:05:49]  I mean, in terms of energy, it's not free.
[01:05:53]  And so you have to have a reason for it.
[01:05:55]  It's got to provide an evolutionary benefit for you to use it.
[01:06:00]  Very likely.
[01:06:00]  I think that you're right.
[01:06:01]  I think that's true.
[01:06:02]  Like, we've probably atrophied.
[01:06:04]  And what that, of course, this is material that I'm just barely, I shouldn't even really talk about, but you hear people talking about microtubules and the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way.
[01:06:18]  And I'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways, but essentially that we have the capacity to perceive some various forms of non locality, you know, things that are far away that logically you wouldn't think we were able to perceive.
[01:06:35]  But hell, remote viewing proves that.
[01:06:37]  You can.
[01:06:38]  And I think it's a fair theory or a fair notion that our ancestors did a better job at this than we do.
[01:06:47]  And another thing about, okay, so we were just talking about how like there's other Goldilocks planets and there might be, there definitely are we know of that are really, really far away, but like we are so rare in this solar system.
[01:07:02]  All the different species that exist on Earth, I think out of, so this is kind of getting into what Mike Masters explained to me.
[01:07:08]  He's an anthropologist.
[01:07:10]  And he was explaining to me there's, Over 2 million species of animals.
[01:07:14]  I didn't mean to interrupt you.
[01:07:15]  Isn't he the one who, am I getting my people mixed up?
[01:07:18]  He came up with a paper about a year or two ago that got a lot of attention.
[01:07:23]  And I should stop.
[01:07:24]  I'm probably getting it wrong.
[01:07:26]  Anyway, keep going, please.
[01:07:27]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:07:27]  So he's an anthropologist and he's written a bunch of books on his, I think his, it's not his most recent one, but one of them is called The Extra Tempestrial Model.
[01:07:36]  And he basically explains, you know, having a background in this stuff and evolution, is that there's 200 species of cat, there's 200, or 2 million cat.
[01:07:45]  Catalogued species on planet Earth.
[01:07:49]  Out of the 2 million, 20 of them are hominids.
[01:07:51]  Out of the 20 hominids, we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the Earth.
[01:07:55]  So we are like 0.0001% of all species, human beings, on Earth.
[01:08:00]  So that is extremely rare for Earth, which is an extremely rare planet, being such a, you know, having the moon the way it is, being this, having so much water and land, being inhabitable, teeming with life.
[01:08:12]  So now let's go look at all the other Goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away.
[01:08:16]  How.
[01:08:17]  How many of them have the same gravity, the same atmosphere, the same?
[01:08:23]  How many of them are water worlds or not?
[01:08:25]  And what is the likelihood that those beings that evolve on that planet, that Goldilocks planet, are going to be exactly like the 0.00001% that ended up being human beings on this planet?
[01:08:38]  So he's like, basically, the case he made was it's virtually impossible for them to have two arms, two legs, upright walking hominids.
[01:08:45]  There, I disagree.
[01:08:47]  I disagree with that.
[01:08:48]  Okay.
[01:08:49]  Respectfully, because I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
[01:08:52]  No, I think that our body plan is probably not unique to us.
[01:08:56]  And I think if you're going to, again, I think because what life does, life evolves and life adapts.
[01:09:05]  And so if the necessary thing that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen, and yes, you need water and you need land, you need both.
[01:09:19]  And so it's going to be very rare.
[01:09:21]  Like I completely agree with all of that.
[01:09:22]  I think that's entirely right.
[01:09:24]  But the fact that our body plan is an anomaly, I don't agree with that.
[01:09:29]  I think our body plan is probably.
[01:09:33]  I don't really, you know, do we really truly understand what is the mechanism of evolution?
[01:09:38]  What is it really?
[01:09:38]  Is it truly just random mutation?
[01:09:41]  Or is there something else going on?
[01:09:42]  And I'm not going to pretend that I have that answer.
[01:09:45]  But I think that somehow life.
[01:09:49]  Didn't Jeff Goldblum say this in Jurassic Park?
[01:09:52]  Life finds a way.
[01:09:54]  And I think that life does find a way.
[01:09:58]  Through adaptation, through the need for survival and luck.
[01:10:05]  Yeah.
[01:10:06]  But like this is, if you're going to engage in planetary domination of any capacity, honestly, I think this plan, this body plan of ours might just be the best way to do it.
[01:10:20]  Because what you need is an ability to manipulate your environment.
[01:10:22]  That's key.
[01:10:24]  And so hands and fingers are perfect for manipulating the environment.
[01:10:29]  What's better than that?
[01:10:30]  I don't know of anything that's been better.
[01:10:32]  And then the thing is, once our, you know, Australopithecine distant ancestors of four million years ago or three million years ago, they realize, oh, I could break this stone.
[01:10:42]  Wow, this is really useful.
[01:10:44]  So that encourages further intellectual development.
[01:10:48]  Just even napping stones is like, that's a skill.
[01:10:51]  So you're working cognitively here.
[01:10:53]  And so I think adaptations, I don't think it's impossible that life would form adaptations similar to our own.
[01:11:04]  That you would have humanoid beings that develop that way in other planets.
[01:11:11]  You know, I just think that I remember as a kid reading what certain scientists thought life elsewhere would look like.
[01:11:18]  And some of those ideas were kind of goofy when I look at them now.
[01:11:21]  And I don't think they make a lot of sense because a body has to be efficient.
[01:11:26]  And so you're looking at all of these different factors that go into it.
[01:11:30]  And it seems to me that bipedal, standing upright with a couple of extra hands.
[01:11:37]  To do your job, like that's really quite useful, and I could imagine that happening elsewhere.
[01:11:41]  What do you got, Steve?
[01:11:43]  Oh, the crab species convergence, yeah, similar to what he was talking about.
[01:11:46]  Like, you have five different species that have independently grown crab like bodies.
[01:11:50]  That's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that independently, unrelated.
[01:11:55]  Yeah, it's convergent evolution, yes, yeah, yeah.
[01:11:59]  Um, which means basically, species that have not related to each other can, due to the environments that they live in, develop very similar.
[01:12:10]  Yeah.
[01:12:10]  Like, you know, bats can fly as well as insects can fly and birds and that type of thing.
[01:12:15]  Yeah.
[01:12:16]  That makes a lot of sense.
[01:12:18]  When I brought this up to Greer, he was explaining to me he believes it has something to do with morphic resonance.
[01:12:23]  This theory by Rupert Sheldrake to win theirs.
[01:12:27]  It's like some sort of a quantum idea.
[01:12:29]  It's a quantum theory, essentially.
[01:12:31]  So I guess one of the examples that Sheldrake used was this a monkey on one side of the world discovers some sort of technology, figures out how to crack a.
[01:12:41]  Cracks a coconut open with a rock or whatever, and at the same time, this quantum in this quantum field, the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing.
[01:12:49]  So he thinks that might tie into evolution between planets.
[01:12:52]  He said this isn't just on Earth, yeah.
[01:12:55]  Hey, I'd entertain that.
[01:12:56]  I mean, yeah, uh, you know, there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago, which talks about like there's all different ways.
[01:13:05]  Uh, we know that we know that uh, fungi under the ground are somehow, I don't understand it.
[01:13:12]  Can be a means of communication among plants.
[01:13:15]  Right.
[01:13:15]  All right.
[01:13:16]  So, how does that work?
[01:13:16]  I don't know.
[01:13:17]  So, something like that could, sure, why not?
[01:13:22]  Steve, what'd you find about the sun?
[01:13:23]  Anything?
[01:13:25]  Yeah.
[01:13:25]  Come up with a goose egg on that?
[01:13:27]  I got a ratio that I don't understand.
[01:13:30]  Oh, come on.
[01:13:32]  Well, it's certainly less than 120.
[01:13:35]  It's a 1 to 43,000 is the moon's ratio to the distance to the sun.
[01:13:43]  And the earth is similar at 1 to 11,700.
[01:13:48]  I don't know what that means.
[01:13:50]  I don't know.
[01:13:50]  Google, what's the distance?
[01:13:53]  What is the distance?
[01:13:55]  Of the Earth to the Sun.
[01:13:58]  Earth to.
[01:13:58]  All right, we're not going to waste time on this.

=== Ocean Object Discoveries (03:48) ===

[01:14:04]  Fuck it.
[01:14:04]  I gave up.
[01:14:07]  So, how?
[01:14:07]  So, explain to me what made you want to start working on this project involving USOs specifically.
[01:14:17]  Yeah.
[01:14:18]  One of the most rewarding little rabbit holes I've ever gone down.
[01:14:23]  So, I have.
[01:14:24]  I mean, I've had a long standing interest.
[01:14:26]  USO simply means unidentified submerged objects, water based UFOs or water based UAP.
[01:14:32]  That's it.
[01:14:34]  And, you know, I'd heard of this type of phenomenon for many, many years.
[01:14:39]  It's always been very interesting.
[01:14:41]  I mean, to me, intrinsically, it's interesting to hear a story about an object that comes out of the ocean making a big display like that.
[01:14:50]  And I thought, I mean, how many of these stories exist?
[01:14:55]  I have a website.
[01:14:56]  with a lot of amazing members and they'll ask me questions.
[01:15:00]  One person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945 near the Aleutian Islands, a little island called Adak Island out there.
[01:15:10]  And there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a U.S. transport ship, the Pacific War was still happening.
[01:15:18]  They were returning from Japan to Seattle and they were by the Aleutians and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water.
[01:15:27]  Disc shaped object circled around the ship twice and then takes off.
[01:15:32]  So that was a case that was somewhat known to me and it's known to other researchers.
[01:15:36]  And I just did like a little bit of extra research and I'll put together like a little video, things like that from my website.
[01:15:42]  But I got really intrigued by it and I thought to myself, this is back, this is three years ago, so in 2022.
[01:15:50]  I thought, what other good cases are there?
[01:15:53]  Like I just wanted to pull them together and I started to realize.
[01:15:58]  There were a couple of books that had been done on this.
[01:16:00]  It was a book back in 1970 by an American researcher named Ivan Sanderson, a very good book.
[01:16:05]  There was another very good book by the recently deceased researcher named Carl Feint, who wrote a very good book on water and UFOs.
[01:16:14]  But not much else.
[01:16:15]  There was a couple of others here and there.
[01:16:18]  And I thought, I want to collect them.
[01:16:20]  How many can I find?
[01:16:21]  Like, that was where I started.
[01:16:22]  And are they good?
[01:16:25]  And I just got more and more into it.
[01:16:26]  I started doing more of these little mini presentations for my website.
[01:16:30]  It just became by the summer of 2022.
[01:16:34]  It was kind of a mania.
[01:16:35]  And I thought, I'll see if I can do a book, see what I come up with.
[01:16:38]  And that turned out into what will be a three volume project.
[01:16:43]  The first volume I just published a couple of months ago.
[01:16:46]  And that will be followed by the other two, which will be out this year.
[01:16:50]  I've collected about 700 cases.
[01:16:53]  There's many more than that, I've no doubt.
[01:16:56]  I eliminated quite a few in looking for them because I really wanted cases that.
[01:17:02]  Had some meat on the bone so that you could kind of work with and give a good description of.
[01:17:06]  So I've got about just under 700 from around the world, and some of them go back kind of far, not into the distant, distant ancient.
[01:17:17]  The first really good case that I consider good is actually only from 1717, so like 300 years ago.
[01:17:24]  It's a pretty good case though, and then they become better over the years, a lot more detail.
[01:17:30]  And I just started collecting them.
[01:17:32]  I wanted to breathe like fresh life.
[01:17:35]  99% of them are completely forgotten, even by like experienced researchers.
[01:17:39]  I think they're just completely gone by the boards.
[01:17:42]  And I thought they deserve, they deserve.
[01:17:48]  A fresh retelling of them.
[01:17:51]  And I wanted to do that.

=== UFO Phenomenon Growth (03:04) ===

[01:17:53]  And then it just morphed into more and more things.
[01:17:55]  I ended up getting a really great illustrator, a man named Alan Levine, who's a wonderful man and did beautiful illustrations for this project and did a bunch of other things.
[01:18:05]  I wanted to put each one on a map.
[01:18:06]  I did that and I ended up doing a statistical analysis that I did not anticipate doing when I started, but that became kind of a significant thing too.
[01:18:15]  And that taught me more about this phenomenon, just looking at some of the statistics that.
[01:18:21]  Seem to jump out at me.
[01:18:22]  So, all in all, like you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over, especially the last couple of hundred years.
[01:18:32]  It's like a little dance, like they're observing us, we're observing them.
[01:18:39]  And there is reason to believe that they've adapted, that they've adapted some of their behaviors due to our radical transformation of our own technology.
[01:18:52]  Especially over the last century.
[01:18:53]  I mean, it's kind of an amazing thing.
[01:18:55]  You know, you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago.
[01:18:59]  The first operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900.
[01:19:05]  And that was just like, you know, barely able to get in there.
[01:19:08]  So we were not really going deep into the water until the 20th century.
[01:19:12]  So now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads.
[01:19:17]  Exactly.
[01:19:18]  Exactly.
[01:19:19]  So that's a major, like, imagine you're them.
[01:19:23]  Let's say you are them.
[01:19:25]  You're here.
[01:19:27]  You're watching these humans, these observant, intelligent, multi-fingered humans who can manipulate their environment, who are now organized into these collective aggressive communities we call nations, peering over the fence at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence.
[01:19:43]  And you're watching this and you're realizing, okay, so they're probably this far away from developing strong AI, from quantum computing, and from leaping into our world.
[01:19:54]  Like, when's that going to happen?
[01:19:55]  Right.
[01:19:56]  Right?
[01:19:56]  Because, like, you can see the whole trajectory.
[01:19:59]  You know that like a few generations ago, they were all living in wooden huts.
[01:20:02]  And now, wow, like here we are.
[01:20:04]  Hard to reach the singularity.
[01:20:06]  Yes, exactly.
[01:20:07]  So I have little doubt that any observing intelligence, like they can see this whole thing play out.
[01:20:12]  And so they're watching.
[01:20:15]  But I have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the theme of developing intelligence.
[01:20:21]  Maybe we're more aggressive.
[01:20:23]  Maybe we're not as aggressive.
[01:20:24]  I don't know.
[01:20:25]  But we're certainly very aggressive with each other.
[01:20:27]  We're highly territorial.
[01:20:29]  So they're watching all of this and they're seeing.
[01:20:32]  You know, in the 1950s, we started developing nuclear submarines that can stay underwater basically forever.
[01:20:38]  And now we develop these underground sonar systems that are mapping all activity or increasingly more and more underwater activity, including anomalous activity, right?
[01:20:52]  Not just Soviet or Russian subs, but everything.
[01:20:56]  And so they have to adapt.

=== Gulf of Mexico Case (05:50) ===

[01:20:57]  And I think when I was looking at the statistics of this, this whole thing happened because I finished writing all the cases and I'm talking to my wife and she's like, you know, it would be a great idea if for each case you had like a bunch of categories so that someone could just like look at the categories like, what color was the craft?
[01:21:19]  What shape was the craft?
[01:21:21]  What was it doing with the water?
[01:21:22]  Was it under the water?
[01:21:22]  Did it emerge from the water?
[01:21:24]  How close are the witnesses?
[01:21:25]  And I'm like, damn it, that's a really good idea.
[01:21:27]  I didn't want to do it because it was a lot of extra work.
[01:21:29]  I had to go back over every case and.
[01:21:32]  Siphon out that information, but it was a great idea and I did do it.
[01:21:36]  And I'm very glad I did it because then that allowed me to put all of that into a spreadsheet and look at like almost 700 cases and like 20.
[01:21:45]  It's a big spreadsheet.
[01:21:46]  So it's like a database.
[01:21:47]  Yeah.
[01:21:47]  And anyone can download it.
[01:21:49]  It's a free download.
[01:21:50]  I have it linked on my website.
[01:21:51]  You can go check it out.
[01:21:53]  But basically, I'm an amateur with statistical analysis.
[01:21:57]  I can't pretend that I'm some genius at it, but you can still see things.
[01:22:02]  So, like, one thing I noticed is one category was I broke it down into day or night.
[01:22:06]  Simple.
[01:22:07]  Did this happen when the sun was out or when it was dark?
[01:22:09]  Like, very simple little metric there.
[01:22:13]  And one thing I noticed was that up until around 1967, 68, it was almost exactly 50-50 day versus night.
[01:22:22]  And then suddenly, starting in the late 60s, USOs.
[01:22:24]  Yeah, USOs.
[01:22:26]  Exactly.
[01:22:27]  Starting in the late 60s, it goes to 75% at night.
[01:22:30]  And it remained that to this day, 75%.
[01:22:34]  Now, I mean, does that mean I just have too small a data sample and I need to get more?
[01:22:40]  Cases?
[01:22:40]  Yeah, maybe.
[01:22:41]  Could it be that I was just somehow not selecting a broad spectrum of cases?
[01:22:48]  I mean, all of that's possible.
[01:22:49]  I don't think so.
[01:22:51]  I try to pick what I thought were the best and most meaty cases, and something seems to have happened in the late 60s.
[01:22:58]  How do you go about mining all this information?
[01:23:01]  Do you just look for and just scrub the internet for cases involving USOs, or do you interview specific people, ask them?
[01:23:07]  A little bit of both.
[01:23:08]  Okay.
[01:23:10]  Mostly pulling out the information from.
[01:23:12]  There were a couple of websites where there's a lot of.
[01:23:14]  Information.
[01:23:15]  So one is the National UFO Reporting Center that's run by a very wonderful man named Peter Davenport who's run it for years.
[01:23:22]  And they've got 100,000 or more cases there that he's collected going back many, many years.
[01:23:29]  So that's important.
[01:23:31]  MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network, has a database which I was, they graciously allowed me to use their database, which is nice because I'm not a MUFON investigator, but they knew what kind of work I was doing.
[01:23:43]  They said, yes, you can.
[01:23:44]  And then I mentioned Carl Feint earlier.
[01:23:46]  He Had a website where he collected a bunch of these cases.
[01:23:50]  So I looked at all of those, and then there's books and like out of print magazines from the 1970s that I'd look for and just get them and find these cases.
[01:24:01]  Where are people seeing these USOs?
[01:24:03]  Definitely.
[01:24:05]  For the most part, is there one spot in the world where they seem to be mostly condensed to or confined to?
[01:24:11]  And second question is what kind of people are reporting these?
[01:24:15]  Yeah, there are hot spots.
[01:24:16]  We probably.
[01:24:18]  Part of the problem with USOs is.
[01:24:20]  We're all like, we live on the land.
[01:24:22]  We're landlubbers.
[01:24:22]  And so usually you're not out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
[01:24:26]  So that's a problem right there.
[01:24:28]  Navies are, the U.S. Navy is, but they don't like to talk.
[01:24:32]  You'll get Navy stories from some Navy guy like 20, 30 or more years after they retire when sometimes anonymously they will report something to some website somewhere.
[01:24:46]  Like that happens.
[01:24:47]  And I've tried to collect all of those.
[01:24:49]  They're very interesting.
[01:24:51]  But basically, we are.
[01:24:52]  You know, so when people see these, they're usually on the coast.
[01:24:56]  Or maybe they're on a lake or a river, but if it's an ocean base, which is most of them, it's along the coast.
[01:25:01]  What about like oil rigs?
[01:25:04]  Yeah, a couple of them.
[01:25:05]  There's a good one from the Gulf of Mexico.
[01:25:07]  Gulf of America, Gulf of Mexico.
[01:25:08]  Gulf of America, brother.
[01:25:10]  That's where we are, right there.
[01:25:11]  Gulf's right there.
[01:25:12]  Exactly.
[01:25:13]  So there's quite a few from the Gulf here, quite a few.
[01:25:17]  And one of my favorite ones, this is from the National UFO Reporting Center.
[01:25:21]  It's from 2017.
[01:25:22]  It's not that long ago.
[01:25:24]  A guy operating on a rig.
[01:25:26]  Wrote into New Fork, the website, and he described this.
[01:25:31]  He said, I was with a bunch of other guys on our rig, and there was another rig, he said, a couple of miles over this way.
[01:25:36]  And in between, this humongous gargantuan, like a football field plus size object comes out of the water, dripping water, flying saucer.
[01:25:46]  Football field?
[01:25:48]  That's what he wrote.
[01:25:50]  We're watching it drip water.
[01:25:53]  We're kind of blown away, and it just zips off.
[01:25:57]  It's gone.
[01:25:58]  Now, How do you investigate that?
[01:26:00]  It's almost impossible.
[01:26:01]  So, Peter Davenport wrote as an addendum to this case.
[01:26:05]  He said, I spoke with the witness on the phone.
[01:26:08]  Peter will do that sometimes.
[01:26:10]  He said, I found him to be highly credible, highly this and that.
[01:26:12]  And, like, apparently, this was a very well spoken, believable individual.
[01:26:18]  Peter found him credible.
[01:26:19]  And that's really all that we have on this.
[01:26:20]  But it's a pretty interesting story.
[01:26:22]  And I tend, I mean, I read the account.
[01:26:24]  And that's one of the cases that goes into the third volume of my study.
[01:26:28]  Did that corroborate any other accounts?
[01:26:31]  Were there any other similar accounts with flip?
[01:26:32]  Football field, really.
[01:26:35]  Yeah.
[01:26:36]  Also, not just USOs, but you get UFO cases of gargantuan sized objects that have been reported over the years.
[01:26:43]  You wonder, like, what are they doing?
[01:26:44]  It's like a small city, you know?
[01:26:46]  It's the best place to hide.

=== Indigenous Trench Report (15:55) ===

[01:26:48]  It really is.
[01:26:48]  The oceans are.
[01:26:50]  Yeah.
[01:26:51]  You know, there's a really great guy named Dr. Kevin Knuth out there.
[01:26:55]  He teaches.
[01:26:55]  I've heard of that name.
[01:26:56]  Yeah.
[01:26:56]  Yeah.
[01:26:56]  Kevin's a really good man.
[01:26:58]  He teaches at Albany and in New York State.
[01:27:02]  I think he's on our list, Steve.
[01:27:04]  He's coming on the podcast.
[01:27:05]  Is he really?
[01:27:05]  Yeah, he's good, good, good.
[01:27:08]  Shout out to Kevin.
[01:27:09]  Well, yeah, he made a really good insight on this.
[01:27:15]  And he just said, look, you know, look at the ocean.
[01:27:17]  So, a lot of things about it.
[01:27:18]  First of all, it's non compressible.
[01:27:20]  In other words, the pressure is constant.
[01:27:23]  So, that could be helpful.
[01:27:25]  It's certainly protective.
[01:27:27]  Like, if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you, you come from somewhere else, the ocean is a protective place for that.
[01:27:36]  It's a Temperature variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean.
[01:27:43]  And a lot of other things.
[01:27:44]  He said, you know, there's a lot of good reasons to, if you are from somewhere else, what if you are from a water society?
[01:27:52]  Sure.
[01:27:53]  Well, the oceans might feel like home.
[01:27:55]  So there are good reasons.
[01:27:57]  And then, of course, there's the humans.
[01:27:58]  All the skies are just littered with airplanes.
[01:28:00]  So there's that.
[01:28:02]  Yeah.
[01:28:02]  And if you are interested in these human creatures, well, you know that they live on the land.
[01:28:07]  So they might hang out in the ocean, stay out of the way.
[01:28:09]  So, there's good reasons that the oceans would be, providing you have the technology to do it.
[01:28:14]  But if you've got that, then sure, why not?
[01:28:18]  You asked for hotspots, so I'll answer that.
[01:28:20]  One is Puerto Rico.
[01:28:21]  And particularly, I think all around Puerto Rico.
[01:28:26]  Really?
[01:28:27]  But especially the east, west, and northern coasts.
[01:28:32]  The southern coast, yeah, but I think I just haven't found as many.
[01:28:36]  But along the, you get like northwest Aguadilla.
[01:28:41]  Man, I love it.
[01:28:42]  Or you go out to the east.
[01:28:44]  The US Navy's got a big presence at a place called Roosevelt Roads, there, facing Vieque Island.
[01:28:49]  There's a lot of activity there.
[01:28:51]  But north of the island, you've got the Great Puerto Rico Trench, which goes almost 30,000 feet down.
[01:28:58]  It's like, it's super deep.
[01:29:01]  And we cannot, we can't get down there.
[01:29:03]  But there are.
[01:29:05]  I'm sorry, how deep did you say it was?
[01:29:07]  About 20, 28, 29,000 feet.
[01:29:09]  I think maybe close to 30,000 feet.
[01:29:11]  So you're talking almost six miles down.
[01:29:15]  It's not quite as deep as the Mariana Trench in the Pacific, but it's, you know, close.
[01:29:20]  And it's quite large.
[01:29:21]  Several hundred miles.
[01:29:23]  So you have, there are a number of pretty good cases from that area.
[01:29:28]  He's showing, pulling something up.
[01:29:30]  And who is reporting these cases in Aguadilla or around northern Puerto Rico?
[01:29:36]  Aguadilla, yeah, that's not exactly at the trench, but it's not that far from it, I guess.
[01:29:42]  Right, right.
[01:29:42]  Or around this area, roughly.
[01:29:44]  The cases go, good Puerto Rico trench cases go back to the early 60s that I found, maybe even in the 50s, but They really start to collect in the 60s, early 1960s.
[01:29:57]  Gosh, there's some good Aguadilla cases from the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s.
[01:30:04]  Like they've got a throughout.
[01:30:06]  There's quite a few interesting ones.
[01:30:08]  That's a picture.
[01:30:09]  Check on that Puerto Rico trench.
[01:30:10]  Go to that one to the left over there.
[01:30:12]  Top left.
[01:30:12]  Yeah, right there.
[01:30:13]  Blow that up so I can see it.
[01:30:17]  Oh, wow.
[01:30:18]  Tilted.
[01:30:19]  So that is on.
[01:30:20]  Is that northeast, south?
[01:30:22]  Is that.
[01:30:23]  Oriented the right way, or is that reverse?
[01:30:25]  It's northern plate is over here, yeah.
[01:30:27]  So that north is to the right, correct?
[01:30:29]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:30:30]  And that would mean that Agua Dia is where on the top left, top right, excuse me, top right.
[01:30:37]  Okay, I see where you've got it.
[01:30:38]  Yeah, that gets really deep right there.
[01:30:40]  Wow, yeah, it's super, super extremely deep.
[01:30:45]  Are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff?
[01:30:48]  Yes, yes, absolutely.
[01:30:50]  Uh, well, reporting is a hard way to put it, so years after the fact.
[01:30:56]  It comes, these stories will come out, you know, in a variety of ways.
[01:31:00]  Yeah.
[01:31:01]  So, Puerto Rico is one hotspot.
[01:31:04]  We hear a lot of talk about California's Catalina Island.
[01:31:06]  Oh, yes.
[01:31:07]  Near LA, there.
[01:31:08]  Absolutely.
[01:31:09]  The entire Atlantic seaboard of the United States going into Canada.
[01:31:14]  Florida, where we are, is extremely, very, very active on all sides of the peninsula.
[01:31:20]  Really?
[01:31:20]  Florida, yeah.
[01:31:21]  Absolutely.
[01:31:23]  But going all the way up the eastern U.S. coast.
[01:31:25]  But then that's, see, here's the problem with this.
[01:31:28]  So, USOs.
[01:31:29]  Just like Ufo's or UAP.
[01:31:31]  Now it's very U.s.
[01:31:34]  Dominated in terms of reporting.
[01:31:37]  Americans report this stuff way more seems.
[01:31:41]  Well, we have better reporting infrastructure, we've got Mufon and we've got the national UFO reporting center, and so we're able to get these other regions of the world I don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting these cases.
[01:31:55]  Right, it's hard.
[01:31:56]  Now there are some areas, italy, the Italian researchers.
[01:32:00]  I've collected a Lot.
[01:32:00]  They do a lot of very good work out there.
[01:32:07]  And you get some good cases out by Norway and Britain, absolutely.
[01:32:11]  What about South America?
[01:32:12]  Yeah, South America, there's good.
[01:32:15]  I mean, I would have tended to think I'd find more because you just, you kind of like know there's a lot of activity going on in South America.
[01:32:24]  And there's a decent number of USO cases, yeah.
[01:32:26]  So down by Buenos Aires and Argentina, also all along Brazil.
[01:32:30]  Brazil's got a lot.
[01:32:31]  It's always got a crazy history just in general of UFOs.
[01:32:34]  Yes, absolutely.
[01:32:35]  I recently learned about that Jacques Valet book where there was like a massacre down there.
[01:32:39]  Polaris.
[01:32:40]  Yeah.
[01:32:40]  Yes, at the Amazon, the Delta reaching out to the Atlantic Ocean in the late 70s.
[01:32:46]  Yes, yes, yes.
[01:32:48]  And there's a lot of those that are genuine USO cases.
[01:32:52]  So many of those were seen in the water, coming out of the water, entering the water.
[01:32:58]  That's an incredibly ecologically important area, part of this world.
[01:33:02]  I mean, it's the most massive amount of water flow, I think, going into any ocean on the planet.
[01:33:08]  The Amazon River?
[01:33:09]  Yeah, out of the Amazon.
[01:33:10]  It's massive.
[01:33:12]  This is incredibly ecologically important and rich, like estuary, where you've got.
[01:33:19]  It's very, it's just very important.
[01:33:20]  So maybe there's part of that that's going on.
[01:33:23]  Maybe they're interested in that.
[01:33:24]  Yeah.
[01:33:25]  But anyway, yeah, there were some cases in the late 70s there where people were killed and severely injured by these objects.
[01:33:36]  And that definitely appears to be the case.
[01:33:38]  Yeah, it was a lot, it seemed like.
[01:33:39]  The way it was described to me was that there was like a slaughter of people, or it was a lot of people being murdered and not in a kind way by something.
[01:33:49]  Yeah, and in fact, there are claims that this type of thing goes on to this day, not necessarily in that specific region, but other parts of South America.
[01:33:58]  I have heard.
[01:33:59]  How recently?
[01:34:00]  Like quite recently.
[01:34:02]  There's a gentleman I know named Tim Albarino.
[01:34:05]  I really like Tim.
[01:34:07]  He went down, where the hell was he?
[01:34:09]  Was it Peru?
[01:34:11]  Maybe.
[01:34:13]  Anyway, just in the last few years, some very bizarre cases of like human mutilation type cases.
[01:34:22]  That he was looking into.
[01:34:26]  I wish I could remember this a little bit better than I do.
[01:34:30]  Are these with indigenous people or are these with English speaking?
[01:34:38]  Indigenous, not living completely indigenous lifestyles, but very kind of like rural.
[01:34:46]  South American type.
[01:34:47]  Yeah.
[01:34:49]  I mean, they have some technology, so they're not uncontacted tribes.
[01:34:53]  No, but they are.
[01:34:55]  They live a more basic kind of a life than we might hear with technology.
[01:34:59]  And they're described, were there any details to like who was responsible for this or like what their descriptions were of who was doing this stuff?
[01:35:10]  Well, there's, you know, Tracy's in the next room.
[01:35:12]  She could probably jump in on this better than I could.
[01:35:15]  But I'll just say that there's reason to wonder that this was a human operation going on, that it's not necessarily an alien thing, that this could be some kind of really like a diabolical covert op type of a thing happening.
[01:35:30]  Possibly.
[01:35:31]  I don't want to say much more because I'm afraid I'm going to say something that's not accurate.
[01:35:35]  Okay, I see.
[01:35:37]  But yeah, this is look, this is a subject where I think I started this 30 years ago thinking I'm going to go down this rabbit hole for a couple of months.
[01:35:46]  And here you are, it just opens up all of these fascinating and sometimes disturbing possibilities that are out there.
[01:35:58]  Out of all the USO cases that you went over, which one?
[01:36:02]  Were there any that stuck out to you?
[01:36:04]  Many.
[01:36:05]  Really?
[01:36:05]  Quite a few that I think are just amazing.
[01:36:07]  What?
[01:36:08]  I could throw out a couple for you.
[01:36:10]  Throw out a couple.
[01:36:10]  Also, I do want to know more about that 1717 case.
[01:36:14]  Yeah, I'll tell you that right now.
[01:36:15]  That's right off the coast of Martinique.
[01:36:17]  That's in the Caribbean.
[01:36:18]  So it's not that far from where we are here.
[01:36:19]  We're in Florida.
[01:36:21]  The name of the captain, I cannot recall his name.
[01:36:26]  Chevalier something.
[01:36:28]  He wrote in his log.
[01:36:30]  So there, this is at, it's after midnight, so it's dark.
[01:36:35]  There was, I looked into this, there was like a half moon out.
[01:36:38]  So there was some light that was available.
[01:36:41]  And what he claimed to have seen was a vertical orientation, like a rod.
[01:36:49]  He said it was like a mast of a ship.
[01:36:52]  So, like, I envision a straight perpendicular rod of some sort, but above the water, moving along with his ship.
[01:37:03]  It's not the best case, but it's not the worst.
[01:37:07]  I decided to include it because he wrote it in a very matter of fact way.
[01:37:11]  It was like 1717.
[01:37:13]  1717.
[01:37:14]  Wow.
[01:37:14]  Yeah.
[01:37:15]  This is way before submarines, obviously.
[01:37:17]  Absolutely.
[01:37:18]  And the 18th century, which that is part of, there's not many that I have found.
[01:37:24]  There's an interesting one off the coast of southern France, I think from 1740.
[01:37:29]  That's kind of interesting.
[01:37:30]  And then there's one from a river, a little small river in Scotland in 1767.
[01:37:37]  And I think that might be it for the 18th.
[01:37:39]  Only like a couple of cases.
[01:37:40]  It really starts going the first really good one that I just was kind of.
[01:37:46]  Really taken by took place in 1825, and this was on a British vessel where they had just returned from Hawaii.
[01:37:57]  In fact uh well, there's a there's a lot of interesting stories going on here, but they were coming back from Hawaii and they were going down the Pacific uh, and they were going to end up in Chile okay, so they were down by uh, the Cook Islands, so it's like way down in the south part of the Pacific, the Pacific Ocean, and it's 3, 30 in the morning.
[01:38:20]  The ships There was a naturalist aboard the ship.
[01:38:23]  I think of, like, in the movie Master and Commander, the buddy of Russell Crowe, the captain, was this naturalist that they had aboard the ship.
[01:38:32]  And it was around the same time period.
[01:38:33]  So I'm thinking something like that.
[01:38:35]  He writes in his log, it was 1825.
[01:38:38]  His name was Andrew Bloxham.
[01:38:40]  We've got his name.
[01:38:41]  His book is published.
[01:38:43]  You can find the PDF online.
[01:38:44]  I have a link to it from my book.
[01:38:47]  And he said, yeah, 3 30, the watch on the ship reported.
[01:38:52]  A spherical object emerging from the ocean.
[01:38:57]  He said it was like it looked like a red cannon shot coming out of the water.
[01:39:02]  So it was like a deep orange type of a color, but incredibly bright.
[01:39:07]  He said it was so bright, and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck.
[01:39:12]  It lifted up to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then went back into the water.
[01:39:22]  Now, You know, how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can account for this?
[01:39:28]  I can't think of any.
[01:39:29]  And Bloxham writes this in a very straightforward way.
[01:39:33]  I mean, you read the rest of his diaries, I read some of it.
[01:39:37]  I mean, he was clearly a very meticulous, very rational man and a very intelligent guy.
[01:39:45]  And this just is this one bizarre entry in his journal from August 12th, 1825.
[01:39:52]  That's a heck of a case.
[01:39:53]  And I thought that's like the first really.
[01:39:56]  Really cool case.
[01:39:57]  Do you remember how close or how far they were from land?
[01:40:01]  They were off the Cook Islands.
[01:40:03]  So those are, I don't know how close they were to that.
[01:40:06]  I don't think they were close to land.
[01:40:08]  I think they were out there, they were out in the ocean.
[01:40:10]  I don't know exactly.
[01:40:11]  So he said, you know.
[01:40:13]  And there's some other good ones from the 19th century.
[01:40:15]  There's one from, is he, what's that there?
[01:40:19]  I found the story.
[01:40:21]  Block Sam with an X. Where is it?
[01:40:24]  I just found it.
[01:40:25]  Oh, you got it?
[01:40:26]  Yeah.
[01:40:26]  Well, this is the story.
[01:40:28]  Good.
[01:40:30]  Good deal.
[01:40:30]  Yeah.
[01:40:31]  Any, what does it got?
[01:40:32]  You got illustrations or what?
[01:40:34]  Yeah, I think this is the illustration of that event.
[01:40:37]  Oh.
[01:40:38]  Or at least it's included with the story.
[01:40:40]  Oh, okay.
[01:40:41]  Looks like an iceberg behind it, right?
[01:40:44]  Yeah, they weren't by icebergs.
[01:40:46]  Yeah, Cook Islands, there wouldn't have been icebergs.
[01:40:48]  No.
[01:40:50]  But that's the name, Andrew Blocksham.
[01:40:51]  Okay.
[01:40:52]  Interesting.
[01:40:54]  Yeah, the HMS Blonde, correct.
[01:40:55]  That's the ship.
[01:40:57]  And what year again?
[01:40:58]  1825.
[01:40:59]  Yeah.
[01:41:00]  Wow.
[01:41:01]  And what was the size of the thing?
[01:41:05]  I don't think he was a direct witness.
[01:41:07]  I think he was reporting what the Night Watch reported.
[01:41:09]  Ah, okay.
[01:41:10]  So there's that.
[01:41:11]  So he's not a direct witness.
[01:41:12]  So you can take that away from him.
[01:41:14]  Okay.
[01:41:15]  But they, I don't know if they had a really good size estimate.
[01:41:19]  I get the impression it was kind of large.
[01:41:21]  I mean, it was noticeable.
[01:41:22]  It was very bright.
[01:41:23]  Lit up the deck of the ship.
[01:41:24]  By the way, so fast forward about 150 years to 1971.
[01:41:30]  Okay.
[01:41:33]  This is going into my next volume.
[01:41:36]  And the USS John F. Kennedy aircraft carrier is near Puerto Rico.
[01:41:43]  Just saying.
[01:41:46]  They had just finished what were called.
[01:41:49]  Carrier qualifications.
[01:41:50]  So they had done this very involved series of exercises, and they had just completed that.
[01:41:55]  It's 8 30 July 2nd, 1971.
[01:42:00]  And the man operating communications, and we have his name, he in fact reported this to Stephen Greer 25 years ago, and it's in Greer's book Disclosure, which he wrote back then.
[01:42:11]  And his name is James Kopf with a K.
[01:42:15]  And he also reported this to a couple of other.
[01:42:19]  Websites at the time.
[01:42:22]  So he's operating communications on the JFK carrier, 8 30 at night.
[01:42:29]  And he says, Suddenly, all of the communication, he discussed the way the communications on the ship were.
[01:42:37]  He said, Incoming and outgoing.
[01:42:39]  He said, Suddenly, everything was just gibberish.
[01:42:41]  Everything coming in was just garbled messages.

=== Nuclear Submarine Drama (08:11) ===

[01:42:44]  He's like, What's going on here?
[01:42:46]  And then he hears, I'm laughing, but it's really, it's kind of not that funny.
[01:42:50]  He hears on the intercom, someone.
[01:42:52]  Screaming, it's God, it's the end of the world.
[01:42:57]  So he's thinking, what is going on?
[01:43:01]  He goes, he's able to go out and look, and he sees almost what is described in Bloxham's account from 1825.
[01:43:09]  He sees a glowing orange sphere hovering above or near the JFK.
[01:43:19]  He said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight.
[01:43:23]  So it's kind of bright.
[01:43:25]  And there are sailors who were having a really difficult time emotionally with this.
[01:43:33]  One, he said later, definitely had to be sedated in some way or another and whatever.
[01:43:37]  So he's watching this for maybe half a minute, not long.
[01:43:41]  And then the ship goes to battle stations, general quarters.
[01:43:44]  So they've all got to go.
[01:43:45]  So he has to go back to his communication station, where he says for the next 20, 25 minutes, the ship was on general quarters and the communications were just down.
[01:43:56]  And he also.
[01:43:57]  Stated that he believed that the weapons, like aircraft, like I think what do they have, F-4s, they were not operational.
[01:44:06]  So the aircraft would not fly or weapons would not operate.
[01:44:11]  So, anyway, I've mentioned this because that glowing spherical object, I mean, to me, it's almost, it seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s.
[01:44:22]  And you get this same type of glowing globular sphere.
[01:44:27]  Wow.
[01:44:28]  Yeah.
[01:44:29]  Like, what is that, right?
[01:44:30]  What is that?
[01:44:31]  I wonder how many of them there are, you know, because like the most, the first one that I ever heard about was the Tic Tac.
[01:44:37]  Yeah.
[01:44:38]  And that thing was like zooming around, zipping around.
[01:44:41]  And I think there's a good chance there was something below the water there, too.
[01:44:46]  Oh, you think there was a bigger ship that it came out of or something like that?
[01:44:49]  I think so, yeah.
[01:44:50]  There's talk about that, and it's not 100% confirmed, but that's what I think is probably the case.
[01:44:57]  But yeah, well, the Tic Tac's a great case for sure.
[01:45:00]  Absolutely for sure.
[01:45:02]  I mean, that one's like apparently it's documented on all of his radar, right?
[01:45:07]  Even though it hasn't been released.
[01:45:08]  Yeah.
[01:45:09]  Well, yeah, and there's a lot of good witnesses for that.
[01:45:12]  Kevin Day, who operated the radar aboard the USS Princeton, who's a very decent man, is a friend of ours, was there and has talked about this in great detail.
[01:45:23]  And of course, we have David Fravor's testimony, and a number of the other witnesses now have come out who have discussed it.
[01:45:32]  So I don't think that we have any doubt that something very, very unusual happened there, for sure, of extremely high order of intelligence as well.
[01:45:39]  I mean, anything that can appear at what's called the CAP.
[01:45:43]  The cap point before you get there, they get there.
[01:45:49]  Uh, it's like time travel.
[01:45:52]  Some well, a put off called it space time metric engineering.
[01:45:56]  Maybe that's what they're doing.
[01:45:58]  Wow, uh, in some way.
[01:45:59]  That's San Diego, right?
[01:46:00]  That's not anywhere near Catalina.
[01:46:02]  So, off the coast of that happened, off the coast of lower Baja California.
[01:46:06]  Oh, that was in near Baja California, I think.
[01:46:08]  Yeah, a little south, probably south west of San Diego, I think.
[01:46:12]  Okay, not not that far, right?
[01:46:15]  But off out there in the Pacific.
[01:46:19]  There's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean.
[01:46:20]  I have a friend who lives in Tijuana, and he says there's all kinds of like UFO stuff going on out there, especially like in the USO type stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in the media in the US.
[01:46:30]  Yeah.
[01:46:30]  I think that there's a lot of anecdotal information in Mexico.
[01:46:36]  We spoke to a couple of years ago a gentleman who had an interesting USO account off the Yucatan part of it, you know, on the other side.
[01:46:46]  Oh, really?
[01:46:47]  But yeah, I think, I don't think they get reported officially.
[01:46:51]  So they're just like the stories are floating around there, as it were.
[01:46:55]  And I have no doubt there's far more cases that are connected to Mexico than we probably have been able to find.
[01:47:05]  You know, just the reports from like Robert Hastings with the UFOs and nukes and the saucers showing up above these nuclear missile silos and things like this, I can't imagine that there's not some crazy case of like a UFO stopping a nuclear submarine or something or interacting with like a big nuclear sub.
[01:47:25]  Well, we have some.
[01:47:26]  Pretty good account, actually, the best accounts of that.
[01:47:28]  By the way, I'm a very big admirer of Robert Hastings' work, Special Land Nukes.
[01:47:33]  Very, very important.
[01:47:35]  So I'm glad you mentioned him.
[01:47:36]  But yeah, the best nuclear submarine stories that I've been able to find I mean, there's one or two of American, but the Soviet Union, yeah, they have some.
[01:47:52]  We learned about them.
[01:47:53]  I think a lot of this happened when the Soviet Union fell in 1991.
[01:47:58]  And for a while there, A lot of these stories came out, a lot of KGB files and this type of thing.
[01:48:05]  And so we, the Soviet Navy in the late 60s and through the 70s, and probably beyond, reported something, and I'm sure I'm going to mispronounce this.
[01:48:17]  It's spelled Kavakari.
[01:48:20]  It's a Russian word.
[01:48:21]  It apparently means frogs because these things would make a croaking sound in the water.
[01:48:26]  So Soviet submarines, and I think this is most active in the northern Atlantic, very strategically important.
[01:48:34]  Area, if you're operating submarines, and they were encountering these.
[01:48:39]  And at first, so these objects would be in the water.
[01:48:42]  They'd hear these bizarre croaking type sounds, apparently, and wonder, is this Americans?
[01:48:48]  What is this?
[01:48:49]  Is this some kind of new technology we have to worry about?
[01:48:52]  And were they hearing it through their equipment?
[01:48:54]  Hearing, yeah, through their equipment.
[01:48:56]  And apparently, these things would like circle around them.
[01:48:59]  That's not easy to do, to circle around a nuclear submarine.
[01:49:03]  Right.
[01:49:05]  But that would happen, and there'd be multiple ones of them.
[01:49:09]  They'd be surrounded.
[01:49:10]  They never got a sense that these were acting in a hostile manner.
[01:49:15]  To your question, like, are they engaging in that?
[01:49:18]  I don't, I'm not aware that the Soviets believed that these Kvakari were operating in a hostile way, but they were spooky.
[01:49:29]  And I think they definitely spooked them.
[01:49:31]  And there was a, apparently, a, A formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the Soviet military structure.
[01:49:41]  It's not available that I'm aware of.
[01:49:43]  Yeah, it's interesting because you only have your equipment to measure what's going on outside.
[01:49:49]  You don't really have those submarines, don't have giant windows to see what's going on outside.
[01:49:54]  So those things could probably evade any kind of detection.
[01:49:57]  One of the things that just fascinates me about these USOs is whenever I write about any of these, I try to whatever extent possible to put myself in that position.
[01:50:09]  To because you want to be accurate, you want to be analytical, but you really want to, like, I want to feel what it is like to be there.
[01:50:18]  So, imagine it's the Cold War, it's the 1960s or 70s, and you're in the water and you're hunting for the enemy.
[01:50:28]  You're a Russian, you're hunting for the Americans, you're American, you're hunting for the Russians, and it's pitch black, and you know, and then there's this other thing, there's this other presence.
[01:50:40]  It's got to be so spooky.
[01:50:43]  I mean, it's not hard to see why there would be secrecy from their point of view about this.
[01:50:50]  I mean, honestly, I mean, but the amount of drama is my microphone.

=== Cold War Submarine Hunt (04:44) ===

[01:50:55]  Am I okay here?
[01:50:56]  Oh, is he good, Steve?
[01:50:56]  Am I okay?
[01:50:57]  Pull up just a little bit just in case.
[01:50:59]  I don't want to mess it up.
[01:50:59]  Yeah, he's good.
[01:51:00]  Okay, thank you.
[01:51:02]  I just have to think like the drama, the human drama has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences.
[01:51:09]  And that was one of the real draws for me to engage in this project.
[01:51:15]  Yeah, that's one of the things I think about a lot too.
[01:51:17]  Like, you know, there's various ideas of like how many people in the world know the truth about this stuff, right?
[01:51:24]  Like, how many people that exist on earth know everything outside of the compartmented, you know what I mean?
[01:51:30]  People that have all the pieces to the puzzle, maybe, maybe 100, 200, 300.
[01:51:34]  Yeah, I mean, I've spent 30 plus years and I'm not one of them.
[01:51:37]  Right.
[01:51:38]  I've tried.
[01:51:39]  Right.
[01:51:39]  I try to get a handle on it, but there's massive gaps.
[01:51:42]  I like, I have it.
[01:51:44]  I always imagine like, If you were one of those people, if they do exist, if there is anyone who has the whole picture, the whole, every piece of the pie, what that must do to your worldview and your, you know what I mean?
[01:51:58]  Just like your life and separating your work life from your family life.
[01:52:04]  If you have a family life, if that can exist, knowing that, right?
[01:52:09]  About 15, 16 years ago, I think I coined a phrase, which is still out there.
[01:52:13]  I still hear it.
[01:52:13]  It's called breakaway civilization.
[01:52:15]  So it's the idea that.
[01:52:18]  You coined that phrase?
[01:52:20]  Yeah.
[01:52:20]  Really?
[01:52:21]  It was my little thing.
[01:52:22]  Oh, wow.
[01:52:24]  And I was thinking, because I'm interested in the study of human civilizations as a very kind of.
[01:52:32]  I once read the condensed version of a book by Arnold Toynbee, a really great historian.
[01:52:37]  It's like the Mozart of historians, in my opinion.
[01:52:39]  And he wrote this Arnold Toynbee.
[01:52:42]  He was a genius.
[01:52:43]  Okay.
[01:52:44]  And I think he died in the 40s.
[01:52:47]  But he wrote this something that is really not popular anymore.
[01:52:51]  He did these meta historians, like he was looking at the grand. progress of human society and what is it that makes a civilization.
[01:53:02]  And so he did this comparative study of human civilizations.
[01:53:06]  Anyway, I was reading that at the time.
[01:53:09]  This is 2007, 2008.
[01:53:12]  And I thought, you know, what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world that we don't know about based on Roswell Tech, or whatever other advanced tech that is kept secret.
[01:53:33]  We had examples during the Cold War of separate scientific infrastructure.
[01:53:36]  In the Soviet Union, they had a separate scientific infrastructure that, in a lot of ways, was based on some really bizarre things.
[01:53:42]  They had this guy named Trofim Lysenko, who had these very unusual ideas about biology and evolution that were only designed to conform with Soviet communist ideology.
[01:53:58]  But it forced an entire infrastructure.
[01:54:02]  To go down this dead end path, basically, of research.
[01:54:06]  So, like, there are now that's something we know about, but could you develop?
[01:54:11]  I asked myself based on UFO tech that is kept secret, which I was really thinking a lot about, of course, at that time, to the point where you would have breakthroughs in terms of understanding whether it's gravity or material science or understanding who these beings are that you cannot share with the rest of the world, right?
[01:54:34]  But you That doesn't stop you from continuing on to develop this.
[01:54:39]  And so you end up going on your own path and you kind of break away intellectually and cosmologically and maybe technologically from us little proles living on the surface.
[01:54:53]  But you are aware of anti grav research.
[01:54:56]  You have the ability to go off world, maybe.
[01:54:58]  You have the ability to learn who these other beings are more than.
[01:55:03]  So I called it a breakaway civilization when that's broken away from our own.
[01:55:08]  That doesn't necessarily mean that they all live on Mars in like what's that alternative three type setting, but it could mean, as you were just saying, you've got a job in the classified world, you go off, you punch the clock, and you go into your classified project, which then through that, you probably go into through another classified project and maybe a third.
[01:55:27]  And so you've got all these layers of cover, and then you do your work, you're in the breakaway, and then you come home, you say hello to your spouse.
[01:55:35]  How was work, dear?
[01:55:36]  Oh, it was a pretty good day, you know, and you can't really talk about it.

=== Missing Pentagon Funds (04:35) ===

[01:55:39]  So that, I think, is.
[01:55:41]  Probably that was my vision of it.
[01:55:44]  Other people have taken the idea.
[01:55:45]  Joseph Farrell, we talked about Joseph.
[01:55:47]  He actually wrote about it as well.
[01:55:51]  And you can go pretty far with it.
[01:55:53]  I'm more cautious about it than almost anyone else that I've heard talk about it.
[01:55:58]  But I do believe that there's probably something like that.
[01:56:02]  Well, if you were one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of physics that the rest of the world doesn't even understand, and You now have weapons that are more powerful than the United States military, Russia, China, all of them combined.
[01:56:23]  And the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff wants some answers.
[01:56:26]  You're going to give them the double bird.
[01:56:29]  You're going to say, fuck off.
[01:56:30]  You're not getting any of our stuff.
[01:56:31]  We could take out every single military in the snap of our fingers.
[01:56:37]  So, like, you don't have to answer to anybody.
[01:56:39]  Yeah, if they're that independent.
[01:56:41]  I mean, that's a really good question.
[01:56:42]  And you're getting into a key area, which is how, what is the structure?
[01:56:48]  Of this secrecy for real, like who?
[01:56:52]  Who's running it?
[01:56:54]  Who's who's the guy in charge?
[01:56:56]  And does he answer to someone else?
[01:56:59]  Does he answer to them?
[01:56:59]  There's all kinds of possibilities.
[01:57:02]  Does he answer to right exactly?
[01:57:03]  And you know this is I don't know.
[01:57:05]  I don't have that answer.
[01:57:06]  This is interesting.
[01:57:07]  You know the I had this lady on recently, this woman who uh tracks money, uh in the government and government spending and budgets and stuff like this, and she was a head, she was a worked during the Bush administration And she was a part.
[01:57:22]  Talking about Catherine Austin Fitz?
[01:57:23]  Yes.
[01:57:24]  Yeah, she's a great friend of mine.
[01:57:25]  Oh, really?
[01:57:26]  Love Catherine.
[01:57:26]  I just had her on.
[01:57:27]  Fascinating.
[01:57:28]  And she was a brilliant lady.
[01:57:30]  She was explaining, yeah, she was explaining like how the money that went missing when Donald Rumsfeld did that press conference the day before 9-11 said there was $4 trillion missing from the receipts for the Pentagon.
[01:57:40]  I think his quote was $2.3 trillion.
[01:57:42]  Yeah, I got it wrong.
[01:57:43]  $2.3 trillion.
[01:57:44]  But yeah, no, yeah, that's all right.
[01:57:46]  And basically, you know, she looks at this whole thing from a balance sheet perspective.
[01:57:52]  Saying all these trillions of dollars have gone missing and they're not accounted for.
[01:57:57]  And if these things went to black projects, what we're speculating about with companies that have all this crazy tech is not that far off.
[01:58:07]  Yeah, a couple of things.
[01:58:08]  So, first of all, everyone should know who Catherine Austin Fitz is.
[01:58:11]  She's a real, a great benefactor to our civilization.
[01:58:14]  And she is a gem and a brilliant individual and a wonderful person.
[01:58:19]  She's like an absolutely decent, wonderful.
[01:58:22]  Yes, totally.
[01:58:24]  But she's also.
[01:58:27]  She has opened up this whole area.
[01:58:28]  Now, the thing about the 2.6 trillion in the summer of 2001, and that was 2.3, and that number actually they supposedly got it down to zero, if you want to believe that.
[01:58:41]  But what they really were talking about, as I understand it, and Catherine could probably do this far better than me, it doesn't, to my understanding, necessarily mean that $2.3 trillion went missing.
[01:58:55]  You're talking about unresolved.
[01:58:58]  discrepancies in the payment.
[01:58:59]  So you've got all these different accounting systems within the Pentagon and you've got – so there's a lot of opportunities for duplicate transactions to be recorded.
[01:59:09]  And so I don't really know how much money gets siphoned out.
[01:59:13]  There's definitely – I mean, I completely agree, a lot of money that's gotten siphoned out.
[01:59:18]  And what is the exact number?
[01:59:20]  It's $2.3 trillion would be – you know, the Pentagon's official budget in 2001 was something like 300 billion.
[01:59:27]  So you're talking a factor of eight.
[01:59:29]  So, how do you lose eight times your annual budget?
[01:59:32]  It beats me.
[01:59:33]  I don't know how that works.
[01:59:35]  My accounting skills are not very good.
[01:59:38]  I'm not finding it.
[01:59:38]  But clearly, we are talking about one thing Catherine said to me, I think, and she's probably written it.
[01:59:47]  She talked about when she first became Assistant Secretary of HUD, Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush administration back in 1989.
[01:59:56]  And her thing was always finance.
[01:59:57]  She's a financial whiz.
[01:59:59]  And she described, and Catherine, forgive me if I get this slightly wrong.
[02:00:04]  She said, I want to look at the full budget of HUD.
[02:00:08]  Was that it?
[02:00:09]  And they're like, You're not authorized.
[02:00:11]  And she said, The hell, I'm not authorized.

=== $4 Trillion Discrepancy (08:33) ===

[02:00:14]  So she said, They eventually wheeled in.
[02:00:16]  She described the library carts, you know, like where they have library books, like one after another, after another, filled with stacks of papers.
[02:00:25]  And she, I think she said something like, You know, God could not sort this mess out.
[02:00:30]  It was designed, it was so, it was physically unauditable.
[02:00:37]  And one of her points, I definitely remember this, was, It was, It was like designed by default, physically impossible to audit the U.S. government.
[02:00:47]  And she made a very, many, many astute observations.
[02:00:51]  She just said, Look, we have a system where these people are, they do not adhere to the rule of law.
[02:00:58]  They are above the rule of law.
[02:00:59]  Yes.
[02:01:00]  And I think, you know, that puts it as well as anyone has ever done.
[02:01:04]  Yeah, it's a terrifying idea that all this money is going to some stuff that we know.
[02:01:11]  And then.
[02:01:11]  Well, think of one thing here.
[02:01:13]  Sure.
[02:01:13]  So all of our history.
[02:01:15]  Right.
[02:01:16]  We I'm sorry to interrupt you.
[02:01:17]  No, all of our history has been a extremely hierarchical structure.
[02:01:22]  So you've always it's always been this way you have a king priesthood guys in charge and they own everything they control everything But in the last couple of hundred years we like to think that we have this democracy of some sort where everyone's participating and it's egalitarian and yeah, that's that's what we actually have Is it's a pretend democracy.
[02:01:48]  And both parts of that are equally important.
[02:01:50]  You have to have the people need to believe that they have a kind of democratic system, or else they'd be very unhappy because we want to think that we have a say in our system.
[02:02:01]  But the reality has always been there's always been elites, there's always been the guys on top.
[02:02:08]  And throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century, their goal has always been to figure out how do we let the people keep believing these little fairy tales.
[02:02:17]  While we keep running things the way we've always done.
[02:02:20]  And that's really what the system is.
[02:02:21]  And so now it's a system that is inherently dishonest.
[02:02:25]  It has to rule by lies because, and that distorts all of our politics too because everything's now out in the open.
[02:02:32]  You can't really, everything's got to be kind of tossed out there for the people.
[02:02:38]  And it's all a series of manipulations one after the next.
[02:02:40]  It's just we get propagandized 24 7, basically what it is.
[02:02:44]  Sure.
[02:02:45]  Yeah.
[02:02:45]  And it's built on lies.
[02:02:46]  And that's why they can't disclose certain things because they feel like that will unravel a whole other.
[02:02:52]  Layer of lies that will make people accountable for things.
[02:02:57]  People will go to prison, I'm sure.
[02:02:58]  I'm sure there will be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret information that lies.
[02:03:04]  Let's go back to UFOs.
[02:03:05]  I mean, 15 years ago, I co-authored a really cool book with a man named Bryce Zabel, and it's called AD After Disclosure.
[02:03:14]  So that was, I think, the only book-length treatment on how could disclosure happen?
[02:03:20]  How would it rock our world if it were to happen?
[02:03:24]  It feels like a different lifetime.
[02:03:25]  I mean, 15 years ago, 2010 was a totally different world.
[02:03:29]  It feels like, but one thing that I've always felt is that a genuine reveal of this whole UFO, UAP subject, like a true reveal, is highly, highly destabilizing.
[02:03:46]  Really?
[02:03:46]  Yes, 100%.
[02:03:48]  100%.
[02:03:49]  And this is why there is an absolutely, like, we are never going to give this up.
[02:03:54]  Like, there are factions that will never give this up.
[02:03:57]  They will never.
[02:03:59]  Look, think of it.
[02:04:01]  But they will never give it up.
[02:04:03]  They'll never willingly give up this system.
[02:04:05]  To protect us or to protect themselves?
[02:04:07]  To protect themselves, to protect the system that's in place.
[02:04:09]  Right, sure.
[02:04:10]  They may rationalize it to say, you people don't know where you're getting into.
[02:04:14]  We're protecting you.
[02:04:15]  I could see them justifying that.
[02:04:17]  Maybe they're right.
[02:04:18]  We don't know all of it, do we?
[02:04:21]  I believe in truth.
[02:04:23]  I like to think that most of us believe in truth.
[02:04:24]  And if I'm going to have faith in anything, it's going to be a faith in truth.
[02:04:29]  What else?
[02:04:30]  If you cannot believe in truth, What else you got?
[02:04:35]  So I'm going to believe in that.
[02:04:38]  However, so let's say now in 2010, when we wrote this, the country was not nearly as polarized as it is now.
[02:04:48]  So in 2010, we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world, well, you know, this thing happened, this sighting occurred, we can't really ignore it anymore.
[02:04:59]  Yes, it's real.
[02:05:01]  And some of them are not human and they're here.
[02:05:04]  That would be disclosure, right?
[02:05:06]  That's kind of what we all imagine.
[02:05:08]  And so, even under that scenario, I think it's way more complex now.
[02:05:11]  We can get to that.
[02:05:12]  But even in that scenario, I was, you know, even in 2010, I was all over 9 11.
[02:05:22]  I got into a lot of trouble among some UFO researchers because I was an early 9 11 conspiracy guy.
[02:05:29]  Were you?
[02:05:30]  Absolutely.
[02:05:30]  I still am.
[02:05:31]  Really?
[02:05:32]  I'm not going to be insulted by that pack of lies.
[02:05:35]  We'll come back to that then.
[02:05:36]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:05:37]  I'm, you know, I've.
[02:05:39]  There are people far more conversant with that than me, but yes, my dad worked at the World Trade Center back in September 01.
[02:05:46]  He had the day off.
[02:05:47]  My dad had the day off.
[02:05:48]  What?
[02:05:49]  My dad was a retired New York City cop at the time, and he had a really cool job as a fire safety director, as they were called, at the Twin Towers.
[02:05:58]  He shared his job with a really nice man who I knew was killed that day.
[02:06:02]  His name was Billy.
[02:06:04]  And it really affected my dad.
[02:06:06]  It was a real tough thing.
[02:06:08]  So 9 11 was a very personal thing on that level.
[02:06:12]  I mean, for anyone who went through that, of course, I'm not saying like more for me than anyone else, but my dad was there.
[02:06:18]  That's crazy.
[02:06:19]  So your dad knew a lot of people that died, and I'm sure you did too.
[02:06:22]  Yeah, a lot of firefighters, of course, and a lot of good people.
[02:06:25]  One of my theories on 9 11 is that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most emotionally and personally are the ones that have, and I could be wrong here, I think you proved this wrong, but those are the ones that have the least capacity to entertain any.
[02:06:42]  No, you're right.
[02:06:43]  Any of the alternate ideas of what happened, right?
[02:06:46]  That don't go with the narrative, right?
[02:06:47]  They seem to be the ones that go with the narrative.
[02:06:49]  The people who are more disconnected from it or even born after it.
[02:06:51]  You're totally right.
[02:06:52]  Yeah.
[02:06:53]  Yeah, I almost wrote a book.
[02:06:54]  I keep wondering about this on false flags, the history of false flag operations in our world.
[02:07:00]  I got really into it.
[02:07:01]  And in fact, I did a little TV series for Gaia Television a number of years ago on the history of false flags.
[02:07:10]  You can go find it, go to Gaia and go look for it.
[02:07:15]  That was much less than I had actually researched.
[02:07:18]  I did a lot more research on false flags than I did for that series.
[02:07:21]  But one thing that a false flag does to people, it's a real psychological head game that you play on people because you're creating this massive trauma for your society.
[02:07:40]  It's an emotional trauma.
[02:07:42]  And what you're doing is this horrible, horrible thing happens, and people are naturally going to be deeply upset by it.
[02:07:49]  And then what you do, this is the genius of it.
[02:07:52]  You find the solution immediately, whether it's Hitler invading Poland and saying we were attacked by the Poles, which is what he did, or any other – there's a lot of false flags.
[02:08:05]  America is the king of false flags, especially after World War II and all the covert ops that we have done.
[02:08:13]  But anyway, you create a catastrophe, a trauma that people freak out over, and you identify it.
[02:08:22]  You connect the emotion to the intellect.
[02:08:24]  So, you have the emotional connection to some kind of explanation.
[02:08:28]  And once you get that, people like my own dad, my father, you know, when I started really looking at 9 11, I used to talk to my dad on the phone about this.
[02:08:43]  And I have to be careful because I could get emotional.
[02:08:47]  So, just forgive me here.

=== False Flag Operations (15:10) ===

[02:08:48]  Sure, sure.
[02:08:50]  But my dad learns that, like, Richie.
[02:08:54]  Or you're looking into it.
[02:08:55]  I just saw this PBS thing and it just showed.
[02:08:58]  He talked about the pancake theory that was put out, the total bullshit theory.
[02:09:02]  But it was, that was put out within a week of the event.
[02:09:06]  This guy comes out and says, this is how it happened.
[02:09:08]  Like, no, you have no freaking idea.
[02:09:10]  What was that theory, roughly?
[02:09:13]  The planes crashing caused a pancaking effect.
[02:09:17]  Oh, yeah.
[02:09:17]  Of the one floor and the other floor and all the way down.
[02:09:20]  And it did not happen that way at all.
[02:09:24]  But it was, so anyway, that goes on to PBS, which is total.
[02:09:27]  CIA op, anyway.
[02:09:30]  And my dad bought into it.
[02:09:32]  Of course he did.
[02:09:32]  You know, I don't blame him.
[02:09:34]  And then he was like, he really had a struggle with the fact that his son was going all into this alternative theory about 9 11.
[02:09:43]  And I'd talk with him every week on the phone.
[02:09:47]  And he came around, you know, my dad.
[02:09:51]  We'll have to talk about something else.
[02:09:52]  So let's move on.
[02:09:53]  We'll come back to it when I can collect myself.
[02:09:55]  Sure.
[02:09:56]  We were talking about disclosure.
[02:09:58]  And what it would look like and what the incentives would be for disclosure, and how you did mention that you think disclosure nowadays would be far more complex than it would have been.
[02:10:10]  Yes, I do.
[02:10:11]  Yeah, I do because, well, because Trump, if I can, am I allowed to say that on YouTube?
[02:10:17]  Yeah.
[02:10:19]  You know, he hits the scene in 2015, basically.
[02:10:22]  Actually, it will do better on YouTube if you say Trump.
[02:10:24]  Yeah, well.
[02:10:27]  And, you know, I mean, How do you talk about this without 50% of the population shitting their pants?
[02:10:37]  So whatever I end up saying, someone's going to be upset.
[02:10:40]  But basically, you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had since Abraham Lincoln.
[02:10:49]  Lincoln was a highly polarizing president, if you really go back.
[02:10:52]  But here comes Trump.
[02:10:55]  And so now we're at a point where, whether it's Trump or anyone else, if it was Biden, It wouldn't be no different because a president who comes up there says anything on this and you've got half the country, half the world maybe saying, I don't believe you.
[02:11:10]  They're not going to believe it.
[02:11:12]  So that's a complication where we're in a kind of a post-truth world, essentially, where how do we actually reliably fact-check?
[02:11:26]  You have so-called fact-checkers out there now, and we all know it's nonsense.
[02:11:29]  It's so difficult.
[02:11:30]  And they're so politicized, and they're so ultra-establishment-oriented.
[02:11:34]  It's obvious.
[02:11:35]  People just lean into their audience.
[02:11:37]  Yeah.
[02:11:38]  So I think that really complicates disclosure as well.
[02:11:43]  I mean, look, we were talking earlier in this conversation about the congressional thing and yeah sorry, skeptics will just how, they'll just jump on anything and they'll cause a lot of noise and it works, yeah.
[02:11:54]  Well I, i've thought about it and I think i'm probably in that camp where, if the top top, top level of government came out and said aliens are real, I would probably think the opposite or something, and there's some sort of weird mix, right.
[02:12:08]  I mean, there's definitely a large amount of people out there who um, for you can't really blame them that no, you cannot.
[02:12:14]  And whatever the government tells them they, they think the opposite's true.
[02:12:17]  You're probably going to be right to a certain extent.
[02:12:18]  Think of, I think of the UFO reality as a mountain, Right?
[02:12:21]  It's a massive Mount Everest.
[02:12:23]  And so you're going to disclose that?
[02:12:24]  You're going to disclose that whole thing?
[02:12:26]  Right.
[02:12:26]  Right?
[02:12:26]  You think so?
[02:12:27]  Yeah.
[02:12:27]  So what you'll do is they'll take like a little freaking sliver and say, here, this is, and it would be a true sliver, right?
[02:12:35]  But it's certainly an incomplete.
[02:12:37]  And I'm sure it's a sliver that will provide the cover your ass rule very effectively to make you look as good as possible.
[02:12:44]  Yeah.
[02:12:45]  So it's going to be deceptive.
[02:12:47]  Yes.
[02:12:47]  Any kind of real official attempt at disclosure.
[02:12:52]  It's almost certainly going to follow that model.
[02:12:56]  I still maintain, and I've caught a lot of hell for this, and what can I say?
[02:13:00]  But I do think that a lot of the people who are pushing this now, like people like Hal Putoff, I've known Hal Putoff for over 25 years.
[02:13:07]  I admire and respect him.
[02:13:09]  And I think he's on the right side of this.
[02:13:14]  That's my belief.
[02:13:16]  People can say you're naive.
[02:13:18]  Well, whatever.
[02:13:20]  Lou Elizondo, I'll say the same thing.
[02:13:21]  Christopher Mellon, these are establishment people in a way that I've never been.
[02:13:26]  I'm not an establishment guy like that.
[02:13:29]  I'm a historian and I guess I do journalism.
[02:13:32]  I don't know what I am.
[02:13:33]  I'm a researcher.
[02:13:34]  Right.
[02:13:35]  But I'm not, I've never been in that world.
[02:13:39]  So I don't have, I don't think like they do.
[02:13:42]  Like I don't think, like a guy like Elizondo, people complain that he harps on the national security thing, but he's army counterintelligence.
[02:13:50]  What do you expect?
[02:13:50]  This is what they pay him to do.
[02:13:52]  Like that's his job.
[02:13:53]  His salary is to look for threats.
[02:13:56]  How do you expect someone who's to do that not to do that?
[02:13:59]  So, But I'm not, I don't look at it that way.
[02:14:02]  So I don't have a lot of their, you know, predilections to that.
[02:14:07]  But I do think like there are people who have a, like they're doing this in good faith.
[02:14:17]  They're not, they're not like saying, you know, we're going to screw them over.
[02:14:21]  I mean, everyone's got their angle.
[02:14:23]  Everyone's always looking out for their self interest.
[02:14:25]  That's human nature.
[02:14:26]  You can never not expect that.
[02:14:28]  But, but there are definitely the secrets, the real hardcore secrecy group that I think they are not.
[02:14:34]  And that they're those guys do operate very effectively.
[02:14:39]  Do you have, um, sort of like a checklist or do you have any sort of way to qualify people who come out in the public and start talking about this stuff to what whether or not, or do you even think about it whether or not people are credible?
[02:14:59]  Are they strategically putting out disinformation or some sort of a mixed bag?
[02:15:06]  That's a very fair question.
[02:15:08]  And I don't know if I can, like, I can't give you a mathematical equation to say this is, he fulfills all of these criteria.
[02:15:15]  There are certain things.
[02:15:16]  Because there's people that could be A, they could be just, well, I think it's complicated.
[02:15:22]  I think that there's people that are out there to make money and to, like, sell books and to do these kinds of things, but they could also be useful idiots to an extent.
[02:15:31]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:15:32]  And have more or less people in the government trying to encourage them.
[02:15:37]  Look, the best thing that you can, everything you said is totally on point.
[02:15:41]  I would just say, There are certain criteria that any responsible researcher should adhere to.
[02:15:49]  So, when, first of all, you want to, you know, we went through a period a decade or more ago when you'd have all of these totally anonymous so called whistleblowers that were out there, or people who said, I worked for this department or that department, but they provide no background where you can verify anything.
[02:16:09]  Like, the first thing you need to know is did this person actually work where they said they worked?
[02:16:13]  Like, did they do that?
[02:16:17]  Secondly, you know, you have to not jump to conclusions.
[02:16:23]  Probably the first best thing you could do.
[02:16:26]  And wait.
[02:16:28]  You have to wait.
[02:16:28]  Someone comes out with a claim.
[02:16:33]  I don't like knee jerk reactions to whether pro or con that go too far.
[02:16:39]  Like, you want to take your time with these things.
[02:16:42]  This is why I'm not always really comfortable talking about every latest little story that happens.
[02:16:49]  Even though I. Person, I feel pressured because, like, I've been doing this so long, people want to know what is hard.
[02:16:55]  It's really, I've noticed that with this topic, it is hard to avoid talking about specific people in this community, yeah.
[02:17:01]  And you get like, and it's hard not to go chasing after the latest headline, yeah, which is a problem because ideally, what you want to do is you want to stop and wait and go slow, yeah, so that other researchers who know more about propulsion than you do, who know more about the history of aviation than you do, who know more about the history of this department.
[02:17:20]  department than you do.
[02:17:21]  Like you want all these people to have a chance to chime in and provide their own perspective.
[02:17:26]  And that just takes time and it's nuanced.
[02:17:30]  But no, I don't know if I have a sure shot answer to these things.
[02:17:35]  I remember when Bob Lazar, you know, was, he's still, I guess, a little controversial.
[02:17:40]  He was much more controversial in the past.
[02:17:42]  And part of it is like you go by, for me, because I wrote about him over 15 years ago in one of my books and it was really, Difficult.
[02:17:53]  Like I didn't know.
[02:17:54]  What do I think about Bob Lazar?
[02:17:55]  I didn't know back in 2007, 2008 when I'm finishing one of my books.
[02:17:59]  And I ended up thinking I believe this man.
[02:18:03]  And I believed him because of the consistency of what he said over a number of years.
[02:18:09]  The fact that I never felt he tried to go for reach or to try to go into an area that was different.
[02:18:18]  And when he didn't know something, he would say so.
[02:18:22]  And then, of course, I did get to meet a number of people who knew Lazar somewhat well.
[02:18:27]  Not perfectly, but and I got to know George Knapp also very well during those years.
[02:18:32]  I have a tremendous regard for George.
[02:18:35]  So I ended up, you know, this is how I made my decision on Bob Lazar.
[02:18:41]  Fortunately for me, I what was your decision that he's legit?
[02:18:43]  He's telling, he was telling the truth.
[02:18:46]  Yeah, it seems to me that he would be a great candidate for the CIA to choose to come there because he's so easily discreditable because of his background and some of the stuff that he was.
[02:18:55]  Yeah, yeah, that's right.
[02:18:57]  Like the brothel and the other stuff.
[02:19:00]  Yeah, he did security work for, I think, a Nevada brothel.
[02:19:04]  I think it was security.
[02:19:05]  He put in some cameras for them or whatever he did.
[02:19:08]  There was the weird thing about his wife that happened to the first wife, I think, who like committed suicide.
[02:19:13]  There were marital issues.
[02:19:15]  And he went and got married, like while he was still married to her.
[02:19:17]  There was a bunch of really, which was, it's such a clusterfuck of logic when you're thinking about this stuff because you got to think like all of these things, which are utterly irrelevant to his story.
[02:19:29]  Exactly.
[02:19:29]  So it's like, on one hand, why would they choose this guy to do this thing?
[02:19:35]  But then if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens, if you're some intelligence operation trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the bag, you want people to question him and discredit him.
[02:19:47]  To think he's alive, possibly.
[02:19:49]  But but actually, if you hear his story, like the way he tells it, he made the initiative to do all of this.
[02:19:53]  So he he was very unhappy with his employment situation at the time.
[02:19:59]  He had met Edward Teller right, the inventor of the fuse for the h-bomb, and I think the original Dr Strangelove.
[02:20:06]  I I suspect uh, In Los Alamos in the early 1980s, I think 1982, and had a very good back and forth conversation, because Lazar is a crazy guy, he's a brilliant guy.
[02:20:20]  He developed this jet car, right?
[02:20:22]  And it made the cover of the Los Alamos local paper.
[02:20:27]  And he's meeting with Teller, and apparently Teller says, Call me sometime, young man.
[02:20:32]  And they had this kind of conversation.
[02:20:35]  And a couple of years go by, and Lazar is like, I'm going to.
[02:20:39]  He was able to get the job with EGG, which got him out to S4.
[02:20:44]  And then the only reason that he went public is he, Bob Lazar, forgive me if I'm getting any of this wrong, but he started talking about it to John Lear and his friend Gene Huff, who was a real estate friend of his at the time.
[02:21:01]  And they start going out to watch the displays of the craft.
[02:21:05]  And I think the second time out, they got caught.
[02:21:08]  And he got into some serious trouble.
[02:21:10]  And You know, had that not happened, I don't know.
[02:21:14]  I think he's talked about this.
[02:21:15]  It's like, you know, maybe I should have stayed in the biz and I could have, but he would have been a lifer and we have never heard about him.
[02:21:25]  Right.
[02:21:26]  So it's possible that he was selected for certain possibilities.
[02:21:31]  Yeah, you know, maybe.
[02:21:33]  They might have psychologically profiled him and think this is a guy that he doesn't seem to give a shit.
[02:21:39]  He says what he says.
[02:21:40]  Did you watch the interview with him or the, it was a, I think it was like a more of a debate or like a, Conversation with him and Stanton Friedman?
[02:21:52]  No, I knew Stanton Friedman very well.
[02:21:54]  And I know exactly what Stanton.
[02:21:58]  You know, yeah, Stan never, ever, ever, ever believed Lazar's story.
[02:22:03]  He called him a fraud.
[02:22:06]  You know, when I first met Stan, it was in 2001, a long time ago.
[02:22:12]  I was brand new.
[02:22:14]  I still had nice black hair, hope in my eyes.
[02:22:16]  You could look carefully, you could see it.
[02:22:18]  I had all of.
[02:22:18]  I had big round glasses still.
[02:22:22]  And I wasn't yet 40.
[02:22:25]  And anyway, so I meet with Stan, and he wanted the first thing he wanted to know about me was what was my position on Buck Lazar.
[02:22:31]  That's the litmus test.
[02:22:32]  Yeah.
[02:22:32]  And I was like, at that time, I hadn't even, I wasn't even really conversant with Lazar's story.
[02:22:38]  I had just worked my ass off to get the story of UFOs up to 1973.
[02:22:44]  That was the end of my first volume.
[02:22:46]  And Lazar, you know, he was after that.
[02:22:48]  And I was aware that I had to study him, but I, Hadn't yet really gotten on top.
[02:22:53]  But Stan wanted to know if I had the proper perspective on Lazar.
[02:22:57]  And I actually, I've always, I mean, I really appreciate and respect Stan, always will, but I did not appreciate that.
[02:23:05]  I felt that he was trying to pressure me in a way that I just don't like.
[02:23:09]  Don't tell me what I'm supposed to think on this.
[02:23:11]  I'll come to my own damn decision.
[02:23:12]  And even at that time, I was not inclined to dismiss Lazar's story, but I kept it off to the side until I felt that I had spent enough time to research it.
[02:23:26]  And yeah, at that time, this is still.
[02:23:30]  In the early 2000s and the late 90s.
[02:23:33]  But a lot of Lazar's interviews were available transcripts that he had done in like 1990, 91, 92.
[02:23:40]  He stopped.
[02:23:41]  I read them all.
[02:23:41]  He doesn't do any more.
[02:23:42]  He doesn't do any interviews anymore.
[02:23:43]  No, but in the early 90s, he did quite a bit.
[02:23:45]  Why do you think?
[02:23:45]  Do you have any idea why he stopped or do you have any theories?
[02:23:49]  It's hard for me to speak for him.
[02:23:51]  The impression that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was, you know, it's like time to move on.
[02:23:56]  It's like I put my information out there.

=== Jake Barber Testimony (08:00) ===

[02:23:58]  This is a crazy community, which it is and was.
[02:24:03]  You know, we don't really do a good job at managing ourselves.
[02:24:08]  It's impossible.
[02:24:08]  Yeah.
[02:24:10]  And there's also all these other whistleblowers that come out.
[02:24:13]  And one of the most recent ones that really screwed my mind up was the guy who went on Jesse Michaels podcast.
[02:24:22]  He was talking about kidnapping kids from Indonesia after an earthquake.
[02:24:27]  And then Michael Herrera.
[02:24:30]  Is that the one?
[02:24:30]  So Herrera, this guy corroborated Herrera.
[02:24:32]  Talking about Jake Barber?
[02:24:33]  Yes.
[02:24:34]  Yeah.
[02:24:35]  His story.
[02:24:36]  I did not hear this.
[02:24:38]  Jesse Michaels, great podcast.
[02:24:41]  It's basically the Herrera story.
[02:24:44]  He had a different angle of it.
[02:24:45]  He was a part of some different organization.
[02:24:48]  Basically, he says that he went to one of Greer's public whistleblower conferences and he heard Herrera talk.
[02:24:55]  Jake Barber says that he went there as a guy to catch whistleblowers, to prosecute them.
[02:25:04]  Then he heard Herrera talk and he's like, oh my God.
[02:25:07]  He says, oh yeah, you basically have it, but you've got the wrong interpretation of it.
[02:25:11]  I think so.
[02:25:12]  Like it's not a human trafficking kind of thing, which is, I think, a lot of people are.
[02:25:16]  So yeah, so Jesse brought that up about the human trafficking.
[02:25:18]  This guy, Jake Barber, got really upset when he called it human trafficking.
[02:25:23]  He said, no, it wasn't human trafficking.
[02:25:24]  We were capturing these people.
[02:25:25]  We weren't capturing them, but we were bringing them back here and holding them to use them as psychic manipulators or psychic pilots for these UFOs.
[02:25:33]  And he's like, they were in distress.
[02:25:36]  There was an earthquake and we were looking for children who were left-handed.
[02:25:40]  And homosexual because they have the highest psychic abilities.
[02:25:45]  And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about?
[02:25:47]  Well, hey, Leonardo da Vinci was one of those, wasn't he?
[02:25:49]  Yes, he was.
[02:25:52]  And, you know, you said they were keeping them and like feeding them certain things, like not giving them, I don't know what they were doing, restricting their diets somehow.
[02:26:01]  I don't know if they're keeping them against their wills, but this guy is talking about some way, way out there sci fi, stranger things type stuff.
[02:26:09]  And then it's like, How far do we allow these people to take us?
[02:26:13]  I personally have not formed a definite opinion on this one way.
[02:26:16]  I just haven't.
[02:26:18]  I mean, I'm aware of the story.
[02:26:20]  And we mentioned Stan Friedman.
[02:26:22]  Stan had a great expression.
[02:26:23]  He called something, he had a gray box, he said.
[02:26:25]  If I don't know if it's true or false, I put it in my gray box.
[02:26:28]  Yeah.
[02:26:29]  And there's a lot of things to go in a gray box.
[02:26:30]  Sure.
[02:26:32]  And that's one of those things where, I mean, I would say let's keep it open and let's find out if there's any other research I can.
[02:26:41]  verify it to some extent.
[02:26:42]  So you have Herrera, then you have Jake Barber.
[02:26:44]  So that's two points.
[02:26:45]  That's not equal to proof, but it makes it a little more interesting.
[02:26:49]  And maybe we can move on from there.
[02:26:53]  But that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field.
[02:26:56]  You're dealing with, I mean, by its very nature, the UFO, let me just keep saying UFO because I'm so used to it.
[02:27:03]  We say UAP, whatever.
[02:27:05]  UFOs represent, I mean, we talk about it in our society often enough, but I am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means.
[02:27:22]  I mean, look.
[02:27:24]  Imagine being across the table, not from me, but from one of them.
[02:27:29]  And imagine they have an IQ of 500 and they're looking right at you and they've got a telepathic ability.
[02:27:36]  Maybe they're connected to a hive mind.
[02:27:37]  So they know everything that you don't know and they can peer into your mind, into all the little avenues and recesses and like, and they don't laugh at your jokes.
[02:27:45]  We're going to run for the hills.
[02:27:48]  And even if they look like us, like that's intimidating.
[02:27:52]  There's no way that's not going to be.
[02:27:53]  Intimidating to run into beings like that that operate on a completely different level, that we will not.
[02:28:00]  We, we like to think that well yo, it will be like that one day.
[02:28:04]  I don't think so.
[02:28:05]  No, we're not going to be like that.
[02:28:07]  I'm not, and you're not.
[02:28:09]  Maybe a thousand years from now, who knows.
[02:28:12]  But is there any story?
[02:28:13]  Is there any crazy story that's out there right, the UFO, whether it be abduction or a sighting or anything that's like, there's no solid evidence one way or the other, that you know for a fact is true.
[02:28:24]  Oh, wow.
[02:28:26]  Probably.
[02:28:30]  I don't know.
[02:28:30]  That's a great question.
[02:28:31]  I wish I could have thought about this before.
[02:28:36]  It's kind of tough on the spot.
[02:28:38]  A story that has no.
[02:28:40]  Whether it be like a.
[02:28:42]  I mean, other than the fact that, you know, obviously we have like things like the Tic Tac, right?
[02:28:45]  It's like a.
[02:28:46]  We know that's.
[02:28:47]  We've had people testify and there's the footage, like the Go Fast and the Fleer stuff, but it's kind of like.
[02:28:53]  It's grainy footage, whatever.
[02:28:54]  And it's kind of like.
[02:28:55]  Take it for what it is.
[02:28:56]  It could be DARPA.
[02:28:57]  It could be.
[02:28:57]  Non human intelligence, but like, say, there's one of these whistleblowers that come out, like Michael Herrera or Jake Barber or Bob Lazar, right?
[02:29:04]  One of these sort of stories that you know for a fact.
[02:29:09]  Well, one, I mean, this isn't a UFO incident, but this was the Davis Wilson notes that I talked about a little earlier.
[02:29:14]  We talked about Eric Davis.
[02:29:16]  I knew for a fact when those things came out in 2019, that document, I knew it was real.
[02:29:21]  And there were a lot of people at the time who were saying it's fake.
[02:29:25]  One person said it was a movie script.
[02:29:26]  One person, a lot of people were just saying it's complete disinformation.
[02:29:29]  Yeah.
[02:29:30]  And I, for a while there, I was actually really, really pissed off at the rest of the research community because I was, for a little while, the only person publicly to take a stand on it.
[02:29:41]  Wow.
[02:29:42]  Yeah, and everyone's like throwing all kinds of shit at me, and that's fine.
[02:29:46]  But I'm like, and there were a couple of people who privately had said to me, I know it's real too.
[02:29:53]  I was shown this in whatever year, but I can't go out, I can't say publicly.
[02:30:01]  So I understood that's fine.
[02:30:03]  But during that whole period, There were some really snarky, nasty people that popped up out of nowhere and then have since disappeared.
[02:30:15]  It's like, who are you?
[02:30:16]  Who are these people?
[02:30:18]  Interesting.
[02:30:19]  Yeah.
[02:30:20]  But anyway, I always knew.
[02:30:23]  I always knew that would be vindicated.
[02:30:26]  I just didn't know when.
[02:30:28]  But then you get, you know, Jacques Valet talked about it in his Forbidden Science, one of his volumes, his diaries.
[02:30:34]  Oh, really?
[02:30:35]  Yes, yes.
[02:30:36]  He mentioned knowledge of it.
[02:30:38]  At the time.
[02:30:40]  When the astronaut died?
[02:30:44]  No, prior.
[02:30:46]  Before that.
[02:30:48]  Yeah, I think in his volume that covers 2000 to 2009, when Davis actually interviewed Wilson during that period, a valet knew about this.
[02:30:59]  And it's in there.
[02:31:01]  Also, Eric Davis himself, short of saying, I wrote them several times, interviews that he did in 2019, 2020, and then just at the briefing, Elizondo, this is one good thing Elizondo did, he mentioned that.
[02:31:20]  He introduced Davis by way of those notes.
[02:31:24]  And he obviously knows it's real.
[02:31:26]  Like that whole crowd, they all know it's all real.
[02:31:29]  But there's been enough confirmation.
[02:31:31]  And Davis himself, if you really listen to him, even in the briefing, it's quite obvious he makes it clear without saying he's got to be careful.
[02:31:39]  These people, those notes themselves are not classified, but they talk about something that is highly classified.
[02:31:46]  You know, they were private notes, so it's not like an official government document, but it is discussing something that is extremely sensitive.
[02:31:53]  Let's take this opportunity.
[02:31:54]  I got to take a quick bath and break.
[02:31:56]  We'll jump right back in.

=== Underwater UFO Tracking (15:09) ===

[02:31:59]  We're back, folks.
[02:31:59]  We're back.
[02:32:01]  We were talking about what were we talking about?
[02:32:04]  Steve, do you remember what we're talking about?
[02:32:06]  We want to talk more about the military aspect of this USO stuff.
[02:32:09]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:32:11]  Before we do that, one of my questions that I've been wanting to ask you is do you, I'm sure you do know about this base.
[02:32:18]  I talked about it with Jesse when he was on here, that there was a decommissioned, I think it was a Navy base in the Bahamas.
[02:32:28]  That was specifically in charge of tracking some of this stuff, this underwater UFO stuff.
[02:32:34]  Do you remember what I'm talking about?
[02:32:36]  Specifically, well, there was a system that was known as SOSIS when it was developed, the sound undersea sonar system.
[02:32:49]  And it was originally set up in that area, like near the Bahamas.
[02:32:54]  So I don't know if that's what he's referring to.
[02:32:55]  No, this was a base.
[02:32:58]  Steve, if you pull up the podcast I did with Jesse, it's in the timestamps.
[02:33:02]  I think it's its own dedicated timestamp.
[02:33:04]  I should know it if I'm just talking about it.
[02:33:07]  I think NASA was involved with it too.
[02:33:09]  I could put it into my second or third volume.
[02:33:12]  Atlantic Underground.
[02:33:12]  Is that what you were talking about?
[02:33:13]  The Atlantic.
[02:33:14]  Oh, Autech.
[02:33:15]  Yeah.
[02:33:15]  Autech.
[02:33:16]  Autech.
[02:33:16]  That's what it was.
[02:33:17]  Okay.
[02:33:20]  So apparently, the way I understand it is they had some sort of.
[02:33:26]  Maybe it was like a.
[02:33:27]  Whoa, holy macaroni.
[02:33:29]  Bless you.
[02:33:30]  Underground.
[02:33:32]  Or not underground underwater sort of base to track and detect things something like this.
[02:33:38]  Yeah, so I am aware of that and I do have a little I've learned a few things you Jesse may know more than I do I don't know I have to have to hear what he has to say.
[02:33:47]  Yeah one of the things that I try to do with this study is Two things what so one is track the cases and then the other is to try to understand the technological military political and other related developments that went on at the same time.
[02:34:05]  So when I try to structure this book, these books, I break them into chapters and at the beginning of each chapter I try to highlight like what's developing here, what's our technology, what's our politics, what's relevant.
[02:34:19]  And so the development of a lot of the Navy systems has gone into that section of each book, the chapters.
[02:34:27]  And so I remember I wrote about SOSIS and I have information on Autech.
[02:34:31]  It's related.
[02:34:32]  It's all similar.
[02:34:33]  It's basically their system for probing into the world under the water.
[02:34:40]  So off the top of my head, I don't really know what else to say about it, but it's as that description there says, secretive testing of underwater vehicles and weapons systems.
[02:34:51]  They called it the Underwater Area 51.
[02:34:54]  Yeah.
[02:34:55]  One interesting thing about it is its location.
[02:34:57]  So that's an extremely active area.
[02:35:01]  One thing I did when I collected all of these cases on my little Google Earth, I put a little yellow pin for every, as accurately as I could, for every single USO case I could find.
[02:35:10]  So that's why I can tell you.
[02:35:12]  Puerto Rico is a major hotspot.
[02:35:14]  That's why I can tell you Florida is a major hotspot area, this whole region here.
[02:35:18]  And so the fact that they've got something down there in the Bahamas, I just think is kind of interesting because that's a very, very active area for USOs in general.
[02:35:26]  One of the fascinating things he also told me was there is this secretive NRO character who was tied into NASA, who was a part of this base somehow.
[02:35:39]  Well, there's an underwater version of the NRO.
[02:35:44]  And it's URO, National Underwater, I forget the acronym.
[02:35:52]  There's a brilliant UFO podcaster on YouTube, UAPGURB.
[02:35:59]  Oh, I've heard about him.
[02:36:00]  Yeah, he's a very smart guy.
[02:36:02]  I've never talked with him, but if he's listening, I'm a big admirer of his.
[02:36:07]  Yeah, Jesse's had him on.
[02:36:08]  Yes, highly intelligent.
[02:36:09]  The National Underwater Reconnaissance Office.
[02:36:11]  Yeah, that's it.
[02:36:12]  Yeah.
[02:36:13]  Responsible for underwater reconnaissance and operates primarily in the waters of the Soviet Union.
[02:36:17]  Started in 1969, and it's There's a history there.
[02:36:23]  One thing that they were they collected a tremendous amount of intelligence against the Soviet Union out of the Sea of Okhotsk off the coast of Kamchatka there.
[02:36:34]  And they actually were able to place a device on an undersea cable there, like a listening device, to tap into Soviet communications.
[02:36:46]  And this is back in like 1970, 71 when they did that using the Halibut.
[02:36:52]  I think that was the submersible they used.
[02:36:55]  I think that was the one.
[02:36:57]  Or maybe the sea.
[02:36:59]  I think the halibut.
[02:36:59]  I can't remember.
[02:37:00]  But they were able to get very valuable intelligence for a good decade or more based on what they were doing there.
[02:37:08]  They're like, yeah, that's a whole story that we know a little bit about and we need to know much, much more because there's no question that they have got information that we just don't know and may never know.
[02:37:26]  They are the underwater NRO.
[02:37:28]  They are incredibly secretive.
[02:37:30]  Yeah, I heard that there's like probably over 20 intelligence or like three letter agencies that we don't even know exist that are within the government or the deep state.
[02:37:42]  I'm sure.
[02:37:43]  That we'll probably never know about.
[02:37:44]  Like I never would imagine, I never knew that the NRO had anything to do with UFOs.
[02:37:49]  Well, they're a good candidate for it, actually.
[02:37:52]  But we didn't know the NRO existed until the 1990s.
[02:37:54]  They existed in total.
[02:37:56]  secrecy for over 30 years.
[02:37:59]  The NSA, jokingly referred to as no such agency, was completely secret for more than its first decade.
[02:38:07]  Until the 70s it came out, right?
[02:38:09]  Well, there was a book in 1964 called The Invisible Government that mentioned it.
[02:38:15]  It was one book that but no, I don't really think it was truly appreciated what the NSA was.
[02:38:22]  And then it came out more in the 70s.
[02:38:26]  But it's still, like to this day, it's quite secretive.
[02:38:29]  But that was a secret agency.
[02:38:30]  Its existence was classified for many years.
[02:38:33]  I remember I was friends with a congressional aide 15 plus years ago.
[02:38:39]  I don't think he's alive anymore.
[02:38:40]  But he told me he was interested in this whole subject and said he was convinced that there was a very substantial agency involved in all this that was still completely off the boards.
[02:38:54]  No one knew about it.
[02:38:55]  Really?
[02:38:55]  So I believe that there are – I mean, look, I talked about we're having a pretend democracy a little while ago.
[02:39:04]  I think that's right.
[02:39:05]  What we really have, what the United States is, of course, is a massive empire that's trying to dominate, has always tried to dominate the world, especially since World War II, and as a result, puts institutions and agencies in place that it doesn't think the public really needs to know about, even though we're supposedly supposed to have this open, transparent society.
[02:39:27]  So I think there's all kinds of secrecy that's going on.
[02:39:30]  I would not be shocked at all that there were a bunch of three-letter type agencies that.
[02:39:35]  we don't know about.
[02:39:37]  It wouldn't surprise me.
[02:39:38]  Yeah.
[02:39:39]  Yeah.
[02:39:41]  It's crazy stuff, man.
[02:39:42]  It really is.
[02:39:43]  And another thing that Catherine Fitz was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground, like basically like underground cities that are connected by highways all around the country.
[02:39:57]  And she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to these things.
[02:40:02]  Yeah.
[02:40:02]  I've spoken with her about this.
[02:40:04]  In fact, off the record, And that's a real possibility.
[02:40:09]  You know, I used to know there was a researcher by the name of Richard Souder, Dr. Richard Souder.
[02:40:16]  Is he the guy that was killed?
[02:40:18]  No, not to my mind.
[02:40:20]  I think he's still alive.
[02:40:20]  Okay.
[02:40:21]  Yeah.
[02:40:21]  You might be thinking of.
[02:40:23]  I know there was a guy who talked about this stuff who was like mysteriously murdered or something.
[02:40:30]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:40:30]  I know his case extremely well.
[02:40:32]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:40:33]  And it'll come to me in a second.
[02:40:34]  Sure.
[02:40:34]  Why my brain is spazzing out of the mouth.
[02:40:37]  Souder.
[02:40:37]  Yeah, so Richard Souter did a number of books in the 90s and the early 2000s on underground and also undersea potential bases.
[02:40:48]  And a lot of his work was very good.
[02:40:51]  So he looked into the technologies that we know exist to go deep under the ground and to go deep under the ocean floor.
[02:41:01]  And that this is not an impossibility.
[02:41:04]  We actually have the ability.
[02:41:07]  All you really need is you need the ability to dig.
[02:41:11]  And if you're going to have a base permanently there, you've got to be able to extract oxygen from the water.
[02:41:17]  But we've had that technology.
[02:41:19]  That's what nuclear submarines are able to.
[02:41:21]  They're not under the water with supplies of oxygen tanks.
[02:41:26]  They have to extract oxygen out of the waters.
[02:41:29]  I think it's called hydrolysis, whatever it is.
[02:41:32]  And they're able to do that.
[02:41:33]  So at least theoretically, it seems that it would be possible that you could have a A whole array of underground and potentially undersea bases.
[02:41:45]  It's theoretical.
[02:41:46]  One thing that Richard found was he ran into this guy who did illustrations for the US Navy back in the late 60s, and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations portraying undersea bases and operations.
[02:42:05]  And he gave those illustrations to Richard, who published them in a book, which back in those days I was his publisher, so I know about it quite well.
[02:42:15]  He's publishing it now, but it's called Hidden in Plain Sight.
[02:42:18]  It's a pretty good book.
[02:42:19]  Interesting.
[02:42:20]  Yeah.
[02:42:21]  So to your question, what Catherine was asking about or talking about, these potential of under deep underground.
[02:42:29]  Underground, kind of a labyrinthian underground connection basis.
[02:42:34]  Uh, it's totally possible, is it?
[02:42:39]  Is it?
[02:42:40]  You know how true is it?
[02:42:42]  That's a question and you know, speaking against that we really would.
[02:42:48]  I would like to see some more actual investigative journalism on it.
[02:42:54]  That's, that's somewhat recent.
[02:42:56]  That can, that can support it, but I wouldn't doubt that it's, that is a possibility.
[02:43:01]  Yeah uh, Thinking of the other guy, Schneider, Phil Schneider, of course, might be the guy you're thinking of.
[02:43:07]  Oh, yes.
[02:43:08]  Phil Schneider.
[02:43:10]  That's a whole other thing.
[02:43:12]  I'd rather not get into Phil Schneider, but it's an interesting case, and he does seem to have been murdered.
[02:43:20]  I don't think he committed suicide.
[02:43:21]  I think he was killed.
[02:43:25]  Another thing, so Catherine was also talking a lot about these breakaway civilizations and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization, it's most likely going to be these bankers.
[02:43:37]  These top level bankers that control all the money.
[02:43:40]  I think that's got to be true.
[02:43:42]  And these people were taking some of this money, using money to explore space and explore these really esoteric things.
[02:43:48]  She describes it really nicely.
[02:43:52]  And she says, it's like imagine there's an open window in the room and the money's just flying out.
[02:43:56]  Right, right.
[02:43:58]  So, yeah, she says, it's like we don't have a closed system, it's open.
[02:44:03]  So that could really be the case.
[02:44:07]  You know how that works financially.
[02:44:08]  I think she could probably speak a lot more intelligently than I can about it, but the way she describes it seems quite, quite logical.
[02:44:17]  And then you have these characters like Elon Musk, who gets all these crazy contracts to launch these satellites into space and do all this work, gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the U.s government to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's, that he's made and kept his companies alive.
[02:44:38]  That Publicly, will basically say that all this stuff's Bullshit.
[02:44:42]  There's no evidence of this stuff.
[02:44:44]  If these aliens exist, they sure are subtle.
[02:44:47]  Like, we don't see anything like this.
[02:44:48]  I know.
[02:44:49]  So strange to me.
[02:44:50]  Yeah.
[02:44:50]  Like, that's a really, because he's made this statement many times.
[02:44:54]  And hey, I'm not smarter than Elon Musk.
[02:44:57]  That's definitely, I'm certainly not.
[02:45:00]  And I don't know as many things as he knows.
[02:45:02]  I have no doubt about that.
[02:45:03]  He knows far more.
[02:45:05]  So it's hard for me to say, oh, he's full of it.
[02:45:08]  But, For him, he's made this statement a number of times that he's not seen any evidence that there's anything extraordinary out there or he would have known about it.
[02:45:19]  And it's hard for me to know how to judge that.
[02:45:22]  I mean, there is a tremendous amount of actually very good space-based evidence for anomalous activity out in Earth orbit and beyond.
[02:45:32]  There's all kinds.
[02:45:33]  I mean, there was a young man named Jeff Challenger.
[02:45:38]  I knew Jeff.
[02:45:39]  He's not alive anymore.
[02:45:41]  He spent all of his time just pulling down NASA video footage from all the NASA space missions and just looking through them.
[02:45:49]  And he wasn't just some wide eyed, gullible believer.
[02:45:52]  He was, I think, a very, very astute, and he just kept finding all kinds of crazy things on these NASA missions.
[02:45:58]  Objects out there that just did not make a lot of sense, objects doing apparent U turns at one point, objects moving in angular motions in space.
[02:46:08]  There are things that you can put out there to explain some of them.
[02:46:13]  Maybe like a booster rocket went off and.
[02:46:16]  Ice crystals moved off at an angle.
[02:46:19]  But there's a lot of these types of things that seem very bizarre.
[02:46:22]  And they're not all American.
[02:46:23]  You have had a lot of statements from American and Soviet cosmonauts quite explicit, quite explicit about bizarre anomalies.
[02:46:34]  There's the Popovich couple, Marina and Pavel Popovich of the Soviet Union, both highly regarded cosmonauts in that country, both spoke quite openly about these types of things in orbit that they were aware of or had seen.
[02:46:50]  And quite a few Soviet missions where they talked about this, and enough American missions as well.
[02:46:56]  You know, I don't think you can just dismiss that.
[02:46:58]  So, for Elon Musk to say, you know, to dismiss it all, which with a wave of the hand, as he seems to do, I find very curious.
[02:47:07]  Yeah.

=== Elon Musk Skepticism (15:36) ===

[02:47:08]  Have you heard of the guy who allegedly works for him, who works for the NRO, who I think Diana Pesulka wrote about him in her first book, who has all these patents and like worked with this dude, Chris Bledsoe, and apparently like read him into all this super secret stuff, talked about all these crazy things.
[02:47:24]  Oh, this is the high level NASA individual, I think.
[02:47:27]  Yeah.
[02:47:27]  There were two of them.
[02:47:28]  There was one of them named Hal Povonmeyer, who apparently like mapped the moon.
[02:47:32]  And then there was this other guy, I think his name was Tim, who apparently said all kinds of stuff to Chris.
[02:47:41]  He told him, he brought him to Cape Canaveral, which is like two and a half hours from here, and said that when you go through the gates, just play your favorite song in your head because these people are trying to read your mind.
[02:47:51]  It's very interesting.
[02:47:53]  Very, very bizarre.
[02:47:54]  Yeah, that's an interesting book.
[02:47:56]  And I don't know what to say about this.
[02:47:58]  I mean, I've spoken with Chris Bledsoe myself a few times, a number of times.
[02:48:06]  Is that believable?
[02:48:07]  Yeah, that's totally believable.
[02:48:08]  Yeah.
[02:48:09]  Yeah.
[02:48:11]  I could believe what she wrote.
[02:48:13]  I can't say that I know, but I could believe it.
[02:48:17]  Yeah, I've been reading a lot of UFO researchers who have various takes on Chris Bledsoe, and quite a few of them have come out and made the assertion that he is like a modern day Paul Benowitz.
[02:48:38]  Well, one thing that I can say.
[02:48:41]  I actually did an extended interview with Chris a couple of years ago.
[02:48:45]  I think it might have been the first extended interview that he did with anyone on social media.
[02:48:53]  Could be.
[02:48:53]  When was it?
[02:48:55]  2017, 2018.
[02:48:56]  A while ago.
[02:48:56]  A while ago, I think.
[02:49:00]  So, a couple of things.
[02:49:01]  First of all, Chris is an absolutely super decent human being.
[02:49:06]  His whole family.
[02:49:07]  They're very good people.
[02:49:09]  And his original sighting, the one from 2007, I don't think there's any question about it.
[02:49:15]  In fact, just recently, a number of new people have come out to attest to that.
[02:49:19]  Certainly there's him, there's his son, and the other witnesses, I think all have come out.
[02:49:24]  I don't think there's any reason to doubt that.
[02:49:26]  And that's an extraordinary UFO encounter.
[02:49:28]  The orb stuff?
[02:49:30]  There was a craft that they definitely saw.
[02:49:32]  Oh, in the woods in North Carolina.
[02:49:34]  Yeah.
[02:49:34]  Yeah.
[02:49:35]  So I have no reason to doubt that at all.
[02:49:40]  And the subsequent activities that have had that have happened on his property, which I have not been to.
[02:49:47]  So you need to be upfront about that.
[02:49:49]  You know, it's hard for me to say.
[02:49:52]  I've not been there.
[02:49:54]  I've heard different types of stories, but I think it's fair to say that there is some odd things that are going on there.
[02:50:00]  Now, is it an up or not?
[02:50:01]  I don't know.
[02:50:02]  Yeah, I tend to.
[02:50:05]  I don't think he's making any of this stuff up.
[02:50:07]  I feel like my gut told me when he was explaining all this stuff to me was that this is something that he really experienced.
[02:50:15]  The thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and NASA are like clinging to him.
[02:50:24]  Well, there's a couple of ways to look at it.
[02:50:26]  One is that it's an op and they're screwing with him.
[02:50:29]  A la Benowitz.
[02:50:30]  Okay.
[02:50:30]  The other possibility is that they know that there's something to this.
[02:50:34]  Yeah.
[02:50:35]  And they want to understand it better.
[02:50:38]  Yeah.
[02:50:39]  Like that's why would that not be a possibility?
[02:50:42]  One of the things about Stephen Greer is that You know, he develops these protocols.
[02:50:47]  He calls them the CE5 protocols.
[02:50:48]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:50:49]  Okay, so people have different opinions on this, but there's no question, in my mind, that there is a consciousness element to this phenomenon.
[02:50:59]  That's real.
[02:51:00]  And there is no question as well that Greer did get interest from the national security state, I think partly because of this.
[02:51:10]  You know, one of the things he talked about, and it's true, as far as I can see, it's absolutely true, is he met with a gentleman named John Peterson of the Arlington Institute, who was. for many years on the short list of, you know, DOD secretaries and things like that.
[02:51:22]  He was one, but he's up there.
[02:51:25]  And also the then director of the CIA, James Woolsey.
[02:51:29]  And their wives.
[02:51:30]  Yeah.
[02:51:30]  All of their PowerPoint.
[02:51:31]  They went to some dinner together.
[02:51:32]  Yeah, they had dinner.
[02:51:32]  And this is, I think, in the late 90s, I think.
[02:51:35]  Yeah.
[02:51:36]  No, early 90s, because Woolsey was director of CIA in the early 90s, you know, under Clinton.
[02:51:46]  Yeah.
[02:51:46]  So why would they do that?
[02:51:50]  I mean, you know, in the early 90s, even Greer was not.
[02:51:52]  Is there any proof that he had that meeting?
[02:51:55]  Yes, there is.
[02:51:56]  Because the argument is over what it constituted.
[02:52:01]  Greer always called it a briefing.
[02:52:03]  Yeah.
[02:52:03]  And they wrote, they issued a letter.
[02:52:08]  I'm sure I have it somewhere.
[02:52:09]  It's searchable.
[02:52:10]  It's got to be searchable.
[02:52:11]  Where they just said, this was not a briefing.
[02:52:14]  This was an informal, like a dinner.
[02:52:18]  And they were clearly furious that he talked about it.
[02:52:23]  Wow.
[02:52:24]  They were clearly very unhappy about that.
[02:52:26]  So I think, yeah, he did meet with them.
[02:52:27]  And then you have to ask yourself, you know, I mean, Greer can talk about this much more forthrightly than I can, but he wasn't famous at that time.
[02:52:39]  Like, who knew him?
[02:52:41]  You know, he was this guy who had just gotten into the UFO field.
[02:52:44]  Yeah.
[02:52:46]  Medical doctor.
[02:52:46]  Talking about crop circles in England in the early 90s.
[02:52:50]  He did a little bit of that.
[02:52:51]  And he gets this interest from these very high level people.
[02:52:55]  Why?
[02:52:57]  I had a gentleman on here a couple weeks ago who brought me a newspaper article that he had.
[02:53:04]  He paid for some subscription to some website that could pull up PDFs of like ancient news articles.
[02:53:12]  And he was basically making the case that essentially what the news article showed was the description of Greer, the publishing in the newspaper of Greer, how he got married, when he got married to his wife and all this stuff.
[02:53:25]  And it was like a little blurb in the newspaper, how he got married at the Baha'i Institute in Haifa.
[02:53:31]  And I've never heard him talk about any of this stuff.
[02:53:33]  And this was like in the, I think it was in the 70s or late 70s, maybe.
[02:53:39]  And this guy was making the case that, according to him, because he was in Haifa, working in Haifa, got married there, and all this stuff, that now he's essentially a massage.
[02:53:50]  Well, first of all, I would never comment on some aspect of a person's life like that.
[02:53:53]  I have no understanding of it.
[02:53:55]  And it is not for me to get involved in anything like that.
[02:54:00]  Even if I had an opinion on it, I would not offer it publicly, but I don't think I even have an opinion on that.
[02:54:04]  Yeah.
[02:54:05]  So I'm just going to pass.
[02:54:06]  Yeah.
[02:54:07]  Yeah.
[02:54:08]  It's just interesting that people can come up with these crazy theories that, you know, who knows if they have legs or not.
[02:54:13]  But like, again, this is just, this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and these people that come out and make these extraordinary claims and, you know, ignore certain things.
[02:54:26]  And they, they, they talk very confidently about things and make extraordinary claims, but then, you know, leave certain things out that may not be foundational or may not support.
[02:54:44]  Their story.
[02:54:45]  You know, it's just part of the stuff.
[02:54:46]  I feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of put out there and question when you're put in the place of trying to evaluate whether these people are legitimate or not.
[02:54:55]  Well, one thing that I always have to remind myself of is that this whole subject, you know, I've kind of referred, alluded to this a few times in this conversation with you, but it's of profound significance.
[02:55:09]  And so that means there are people who have a stake on the pro side and on the on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is.
[02:55:20]  It's highly disruptive, and so there's going to be intelligence community interaction with this subject.
[02:55:25]  That is a fact.
[02:55:27]  There is way too much at stake, and those individuals will use their assets in establishment media.
[02:55:34]  They will use their assets in academia when appropriate.
[02:55:37]  They will use their assets wherever they can within the community itself if need be, and there's always been very high paranoia within the UFO community.
[02:55:49]  These conversations happen frequently enough.
[02:55:50]  It's like, who do you think is working for?
[02:55:52]  Everyone's an op.
[02:55:53]  Yeah, I mean, it comes up frequently, or it's come up frequently enough, I suppose I can say.
[02:56:00]  And A, I can just say to you very honestly, I do not know.
[02:56:05]  I cannot confirm anyone specifically that I can absolutely say they're working for the government or the intel community.
[02:56:15]  I've had suspicions.
[02:56:16]  I continue to have suspicions, and I'm not going to mention who I think those people are.
[02:56:21]  There's no win for me in that.
[02:56:23]  I'm not going to get into that.
[02:56:24]  Well, if anyone wins, it's the intelligence agencies because, I mean, according to the YouTube comments, I'm an op.
[02:56:31]  And then I question myself.
[02:56:32]  I've been called it many times.
[02:56:34]  I've been called Mossad.
[02:56:36]  Seriously, do you know?
[02:56:37]  Yeah, I don't know what to say about things like that.
[02:56:40]  So I've been.
[02:56:42]  Well, I think it works.
[02:56:43]  I think, like I said, I think it works in the.
[02:56:45]  If there is some sort of general opportunity in the intelligence community to.
[02:56:54]  Cover up secrets.
[02:56:57]  The fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a benefit to them.
[02:57:04]  Absolutely.
[02:57:05]  It's a really big problem.
[02:57:06]  Let's talk about this for a bit, if you don't mind.
[02:57:09]  So, I got into this whole field in the 90s when conspiracy theories were not really that much done.
[02:57:20]  There were people out there.
[02:57:24]  I mean, Jim Mars had already written his great book.
[02:57:27]  Crossfire, the plot to kill Kennedy.
[02:57:29]  I was good friends with Jim Mars.
[02:57:30]  I loved Jim Mars.
[02:57:32]  He was a great man.
[02:57:35]  But anyway, like the 90s were, it was, you were kind of out there.
[02:57:39]  And we were developing as a society a much more like critical view.
[02:57:48]  And then, you know, for me, 9-11 was what put me over the top, by the way.
[02:57:53]  9-11 put me, and I think a lot of people, full on in. the government as actively lying about basically every single thing.
[02:58:02]  Like I went there and I'm still there.
[02:58:04]  But the problem is when you think that everything is an op.
[02:58:11]  So that's a bit of a problem for me too.
[02:58:13]  Like I said earlier, like I almost wrote a book on false flags and the history of it.
[02:58:20]  So like there are lots of hops.
[02:58:23]  Like they happen.
[02:58:26]  But when you reflexively, I'm going to be careful how I say this, conclude that every single thing coming at you is like someone's motivated for some reason.
[02:58:41]  That's a real problem because think about what that does if you were to act like that in your personal life.
[02:58:47]  Like if your friend has something to say to you and you're not listening to what your friend's saying, instead you're thinking, what's his motivation for telling me that?
[02:58:54]  Totally.
[02:58:55]  That's a great way to destroy every friendship you've ever had, every relationship you've ever had, every society that's ever existed.
[02:59:01]  It's a really dangerous solvent for a certain amount of social cohesion we have to have.
[02:59:08]  You have to have, there's got to be a way to have some trust.
[02:59:12]  In things that come at you.
[02:59:13]  But the problem that we have is we have good reason not to trust a lot.
[02:59:17]  Like we have really good reason.
[02:59:19]  So, but I do think what we've fallen into is I call it a kind of a postmodern trap, which is when someone makes a claim about anything, frequently from a lot of people, the first thing you'll hear is, oh, that person worked for whatever agency.
[02:59:37]  They've got, they have an agenda.
[02:59:38]  That person believes this other thing in politics that I also don't agree with.
[02:59:43]  And therefore, I'm not going to subscribe to what they have to say here.
[02:59:46]  And so, in other words, we're doing identity politics, whether we've realized it or not.
[02:59:52]  We're not listening.
[02:59:53]  The one thing we're not doing is hearing their message.
[02:59:56]  We're not actually listening to their information or we're not evaluating the information.
[03:00:01]  We're judging the person because we think they're an op and they work for this organization here.
[03:00:06]  And the fact is, when you look at the UFO knowledge sphere over many years, go back to the 1950s.
[03:00:13]  This is a period I've studied a lot.
[03:00:16]  There were a lot of military insiders in the 1950s who were totally of the belief that we need to get information on this subject out there.
[03:00:26]  And they put themselves out there.
[03:00:28]  So because they were working for the Army or the Navy, am I supposed to then say, oh, well, they've got some kind of, they've got an agenda to prove?
[03:00:36]  That's a bad place to be because, you know, it prevents you from actually studying their information.
[03:00:44]  And the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this field.
[03:00:49]  that have something to say.
[03:00:51]  And it's a real, we're putting ourselves at a great disadvantage if we're playing identity politics with every single person out there and we're judging them, are they on the good side or the bad side?
[03:01:04]  That's not good because there's information coming in from a lot of different places, it seems to me.
[03:01:10]  Yes, which is why I appreciate when people like you who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff and are able to take the information from all these cases and sort of see where they all fit together and maybe where they don't.
[03:01:21]  And provide that to people in a balanced way.
[03:01:25]  I think that's super valuable and rare.
[03:01:29]  I never thought of when I was much younger, I didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature.
[03:01:33]  I didn't really know that.
[03:01:34]  But over the years, I've seen that.
[03:01:37]  And I believe in that.
[03:01:38]  I believe in realism when it comes to global politics or when it comes to national things.
[03:01:44]  I try to be what I consider to be realistic rather than dogmatic and ideologically driven.
[03:01:51]  I've got my own beliefs about all kinds of things.
[03:01:53]  But I also realize. that the world is, you know, I had a, I grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father.
[03:02:04]  And so that was kind of good because I was able to appreciate two very radically different worldviews that each of my parents had and to understand where they were coming from and to respect where they were coming from, which I do to this day.
[03:02:18]  And that was good for me.
[03:02:20]  And I think that when, you know, as we're in the world today, I just, I take it as a given that there's always going to be people out there who don't see the world the way I do.
[03:02:35]  And what am I supposed to like condemn them and just say, well, you're morally suspect because you have a different perspective on the world than I do?

=== JFK Assassination Conspiracy (02:30) ===

[03:02:44]  That's kind of ridiculous.
[03:02:46]  But yeah, we do it.
[03:02:47]  We do it all the time.
[03:02:48]  People on the right and the left, they all do it.
[03:02:50]  And it's very unfortunate.
[03:02:52]  We get all apocalyptic about things.
[03:02:54]  And we live in very dangerous times in many ways.
[03:02:57]  I'm not going to deny that.
[03:02:59]  Very dangerous on many levels.
[03:03:01]  But the fact is that it is not for me to.
[03:03:08]  to write someone off just because they see the world differently than I do.
[03:03:12]  Right.
[03:03:13]  Well, Richard, that was three hours.
[03:03:16]  You're kidding.
[03:03:16]  That was fantastic.
[03:03:18]  A lot of fun.
[03:03:19]  I enjoyed this.
[03:03:19]  Thank you.
[03:03:20]  Tell people where they can find your new book on USOs and anything else you're doing.
[03:03:26]  Yeah.
[03:03:29]  Well, I have my book on USOs.
[03:03:31]  It's sold on Amazon and it's an e-book, paperback, and hardcover.
[03:03:35]  And this week, I expect the audio book.
[03:03:39]  Finally to be out.
[03:03:40]  It's been submitted.
[03:03:40]  I'm just waiting for Amazon to approve it.
[03:03:42]  So that's, that's nice.
[03:03:43]  Um, I have a website called Richardolanmembers.com and um, there's a paywall, but there's a lot of free stuff there.
[03:03:49]  People can go take a look at it.
[03:03:51]  There's a lot of information there.
[03:03:53]  Great community.
[03:03:54]  I can't speak highly enough about the members of the site.
[03:03:57]  Uh, and I got my own youtube channel.
[03:03:58]  It's uh, just called Richardolan Intelligent Disclosure.
[03:04:01]  People can there.
[03:04:02]  We go look at that's right there.
[03:04:06]  JFK and UFOS oh, that's something we didn't go into.
[03:04:08]  Wow, that's a really uh wonderful.
[03:04:11]  I had a fantastic guest for that.
[03:04:13]  Going back to what we were just saying about how everyone has their own belief system surrounding everything, I've noticed that everyone has their own flavor of the JFK assassination.
[03:04:25]  Well, he was definitely killed in a conspiracy, in my opinion.
[03:04:28]  Yes.
[03:04:28]  I would definitely lay most of it at the CIA and the deep state.
[03:04:36]  I think Kennedy's assassination, I liken it to Agatha Christie's murder on the Orient Express.
[03:04:42]  And plot spoiler.
[03:04:44]  Everyone did it in that book.
[03:04:46]  Everyone did it.
[03:04:46]  Everyone had a motive to kill this guy.
[03:04:49]  And that's JFK.
[03:04:50]  He was, his biggest problem, I feel, is that he really believed he was the president who could run things.
[03:04:56]  And he ran into a bureaucracy that saw him as a threat on multiple levels.
[03:05:01]  So you had Federal Reserve.
[03:05:03]  You had Vietnam.
[03:05:04]  You had UFOs are part of that.
[03:05:06]  That's not a trivial part of it.
[03:05:08]  Not the whole thing, though.
[03:05:09]  No.
[03:05:10]  No.
[03:05:10]  I think the nuclear issue, you know, he was talking about nuclear disarmament with the Soviets.

=== Volume Two Case Study (01:21) ===

[03:05:15]  Yep.
[03:05:15]  So what he was showing, and then Cuba, that whole thing, and shutting down Operation Mongoose and all of this.
[03:05:21]  So JFK showed that he was an enemy on many fronts.
[03:05:26]  He had said, famously, he wanted to scatter the CIA to the winds.
[03:05:31]  And he tried.
[03:05:34]  He fired Alan Dulles and Bissell.
[03:05:37]  But he, yeah, they knew he was a real problem.
[03:05:40]  He was a serious problem.
[03:05:42]  And what was the ultimate motivation?
[03:05:44]  I think the ultimate motivation was they were like, No way we're going to let this guy run the country for another month because he is a danger on too many levels.
[03:05:54]  Yeah.
[03:05:55]  That's what they thought.
[03:05:56]  There's my book.
[03:05:57]  I totally agree.
[03:05:57]  There we go.
[03:05:58]  The history of USOs, Unidentified Submerged Objects, Volume 1, with two and three to come.
[03:06:04]  Yeah, they'll be out this year.
[03:06:06]  All of the cases, I've written them all.
[03:06:08]  I'm happy with how they read.
[03:06:09]  I keep adding new cases, but basically I have to be done.
[03:06:13]  And what is required is just breaking them into chapters and doing those little chapter introductions that I was telling you about.
[03:06:20]  Amazing.
[03:06:20]  So it'll be out.
[03:06:21]  Well, thanks again.
[03:06:22]  I really appreciate your time.
[03:06:23]  My pleasure.
[03:06:24]  Thank you.
[03:06:24]  We have some Patreon questions for our beautiful Patreon subscribers.
[03:06:28]  So we'll do that separately from the podcast.
[03:06:30]  We'll rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind.
[03:06:32]  Yeah.
[03:06:33]  Gladly.
[03:06:33]  But that's all for the podcast.
[03:06:34]  So thanks again.
[03:06:35]  It was my pleasure.
[03:06:36]  Good night, folks.