Danny Jones Podcast - #294 - Psychic Spies, Scientology & Best Evidence for Life After Death | Jeffrey Mishlove
Aired: 2025-04-03
Duration: 02:03:54


=== Human Potential Movement (10:47) ===

[00:00:01]  Thinking Aloud.
[00:00:07]  Jeffrey Mishloff, thank you for coming, sir.
[00:00:09]  Pleasure.
[00:00:09]  It's a pleasure to meet you.
[00:00:10]  Likewise.
[00:00:11]  I'm a big fan of your show.
[00:00:12]  Thank you.
[00:00:13]  One of my favorite parts, not to discredit all of your episodes and all of the incredible interviews you've done, but I just have to tell you the intro to your show is the favorite intro to a podcast I've ever seen in my life.
[00:00:25]  Oh.
[00:00:25]  Do, That is the best jingle I've ever heard.
[00:00:29]  I want to steal it from you.
[00:00:30]  All right.
[00:00:31]  Yeah, it goes back to the 1980s.
[00:00:35]  It's gorgeous.
[00:00:37]  I absolutely love it, man.
[00:00:38]  I'm a huge fan.
[00:00:39]  How, for people listening, explain your background.
[00:00:43]  You've been interviewing all kinds of fascinating characters in the world of telekinesis and remote viewing.
[00:00:54]  How long does this go back for you?
[00:00:56]  1972.
[00:00:57]  1972.
[00:00:58]  Yeah.
[00:00:59]  And you used to do this on, was it?
[00:01:01]  Radio, or was it television, or how did this all start?
[00:01:03]  It started on the radio, KPFA FM, in Berkeley, California.
[00:01:10]  If you had known me in 1972, when all of this began, I was a graduate student in criminology at the University of California, when I had probably the most powerful, mystical experience of my life.
[00:01:28]  And it turned me around.
[00:01:31]  I realized I could no longer.
[00:01:34]  Continue on a career track which was focusing on the negative side of human deviance, crime, and psychopathology.
[00:01:47]  I was working in the psychiatric unit of San Quentin Prison.
[00:01:51]  Oh, wow.
[00:01:52]  At the time, doing group therapy sessions with murderers and rapists.
[00:01:56]  How was that?
[00:01:57]  Well, it was.
[00:01:58]  I bet it had to be fascinating.
[00:02:00]  I'm grateful for the experience I had.
[00:02:03]  I found the inmates there to be very interesting.
[00:02:07]  People, human beings, just like you and me.
[00:02:12]  What I found was unfortunate is that the prison staff didn't see it that way.
[00:02:17]  They thought of them as somehow non human.
[00:02:20]  They would use phrases like they're a different kind of cat.
[00:02:26]  Yeah.
[00:02:27]  Which I thought was sad.
[00:02:28]  But at any point, after having had, it wasn't just a mystical experience, it was what we would now call a shared death experience.
[00:02:39]  A shared death experience?
[00:02:40]  Yeah.
[00:02:41]  Yeah.
[00:02:42]  How old were you?
[00:02:43]  Well, let's see.
[00:02:44]  1972, I was 25, 26 years old.
[00:02:49]  25.
[00:02:49]  25 years old.
[00:02:51]  So what happened?
[00:02:52]  My great uncle Harry, who was thousands of miles away in Wisconsin, died.
[00:03:00]  And he died, it would have been 9 30 in the morning, his time, 7 30, my time.
[00:03:08]  I was in bed, asleep, when he came to me in a dream.
[00:03:13]  Is the most powerful dream I've ever had in my life.
[00:03:16]  And I awakened from that dream.
[00:03:19]  I was just sobbing, tears of joy, and singing at the same time.
[00:03:25]  Singing?
[00:03:25]  Singing.
[00:03:27]  What song were you singing?
[00:03:28]  I was singing from my Jewish religious tradition one of the most sacred songs.
[00:03:33]  Which one?
[00:03:34]  It's called Avinu Malkanu.
[00:03:36]  It's only sung at what we call the high holy holidays.
[00:03:40]  Which one is that?
[00:03:40]  I'm trying to remember which one that is.
[00:03:42]  How does it go?
[00:03:43]  Avinu Malkanu.
[00:03:47]  Oh, you woke up singing that.
[00:03:48]  I woke up singing Avinu Malkainu.
[00:03:51]  And crying.
[00:03:52]  And crying.
[00:03:53]  Tears of joy.
[00:03:54]  I was so touched.
[00:03:57]  And I wrote home, I said, How's Uncle Harry?
[00:03:59]  I had a dream about him.
[00:04:01]  My mother phoned me as soon as she got my letter and said, How did you know Uncle Harry had just died?
[00:04:08]  Literally at the moment of my dream.
[00:04:11]  That's why it would fit the definition of what is now known as a shared death experience.
[00:04:18]  It's like he took me along with him partway for the ride.
[00:04:22]  And at that point, I said, I need to switch my career direction away from the negative side of human deviance to look at the positive side.
[00:04:34]  Of human deviance.
[00:04:36]  Well, that death is definitely a negative thing.
[00:04:38]  I mean, that's kind of scary.
[00:04:39]  No, it's not.
[00:04:40]  It's not?
[00:04:41]  No.
[00:04:42]  Death, I mean, yes, we biological creatures are frightened by the thought of death, but it was the most beautiful experience.
[00:04:52]  How so?
[00:04:53]  Well, it's hard to put into language, into words, to tell you what joy I felt that I would be.
[00:05:05]  Just overwhelmed with this sense of peace and bliss and love.
[00:05:13]  Who was the gentleman, Steve, that we had in here who wrote, who did the study on near death experiences?
[00:05:19]  That was Jeffrey Long.
[00:05:20]  Jeffrey Long came in here.
[00:05:21]  I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he was explaining to me how these people have experiences when, for example, when two people are in a car crash or a car accident together and one dies and one survives.
[00:05:36]  The person who survives has a near death experience and explained.
[00:05:41]  There's been multiple accounts where one of the one that survived explained this near death experience where them and the person they were with kind of ascended into this ethereal dimension and the other one was like taken away and then they came back down into their bodies.
[00:05:59]  And this apparently is an account.
[00:06:00]  I forgot the name of it, but I think it was something like shared, something similar to what you said.
[00:06:05]  It was very similar.
[00:06:06]  But where they were both in the same situation.
[00:06:08]  Yeah.
[00:06:10]  It often happens at a deathbed when grieving relatives are around a loved one who is dying that they'll go along at least partway and experience the transition.
[00:06:24]  What do you think that is?
[00:06:26]  Well, I think it's like going home.
[00:06:28]  I'm pretty convinced that we are much larger than our biological selves, that we also have a spiritual component.
[00:06:42]  To our psyche and the spiritual component, I don't know that it's infinite or eternal, but it's close, much closer to that.
[00:06:53]  It's much, much larger than just being a Homo sapien here on planet Earth.
[00:07:00]  So that must have been an interesting transition for you.
[00:07:04]  When you were in these prisons, you were spending your days interviewing essentially psychopaths, right?
[00:07:11]  Like murderers, rapists, some of the worst human beings on Earth.
[00:07:14]  That's right.
[00:07:17]  And with your understanding of the human psyche and the makeup of the human condition, what do you think led you into the direction that you ended up going after you had this experience when you were 25?
[00:07:35]  Well, I agonized over it.
[00:07:37]  Like, how do I change my career?
[00:07:40]  How do I find a path that will allow me to devote my lifetime to looking at what I call the positive side of human deviance, which is mysticism?
[00:07:51]  Creativity, psychic functioning, and intuition.
[00:07:55]  And, you know, I was at one of the world's great universities, but they didn't have programs along those lines.
[00:08:03]  You could.
[00:08:04]  What university were you at?
[00:08:05]  Berkeley.
[00:08:05]  Berkeley.
[00:08:06]  Oh, wow.
[00:08:06]  Yeah.
[00:08:07]  Okay.
[00:08:08]  Were you reading books on this stuff prior?
[00:08:10]  Did you know any?
[00:08:12]  Have you heard any like crazy, phenomenal stories, exceptional stories about stuff like this before this happened?
[00:08:18]  Yeah.
[00:08:19]  You see, I'm a child of the 1960s.
[00:08:22]  Really, I remember.
[00:08:23]  Yeah.
[00:08:23]  My undergraduate work.
[00:08:26]  Went from 1965 to 69.
[00:08:29]  I was exposed to the human potential movement.
[00:08:34]  I was exposed to psychedelics.
[00:08:37]  I, in fact, during the B group, you were in college during the Vietnam War?
[00:08:41]  Yes, the University of Wisconsin.
[00:08:44]  Oh, wow.
[00:08:45]  I did a senior honors thesis on the psychology of religious mysticism.
[00:08:51]  So I was very aware of the literature at that point.
[00:08:56]  Point, I had just chosen a career path that was different.
[00:09:00]  I mean, it's one thing to have an avocational interest in the paranormal and mysticism, it's another thing and a much more difficult thing to pursue it professionally.
[00:09:13]  Yeah, I saw you interviewed Terrence McKenna many times.
[00:09:16]  That's badass.
[00:09:18]  That is so cool.
[00:09:20]  What was he like?
[00:09:21]  Lovely person and one of the most articulate human beings I'd ever known.
[00:09:27]  Yeah.
[00:09:28]  Fascinating.
[00:09:29]  How did you guys?
[00:09:30]  Did you just reach out to him to be on the show or were you like, did you guys work together on anything or?
[00:09:36]  No, we never.
[00:09:36]  How did you guys come in touch?
[00:09:37]  Work together, but gosh, it's been so long.
[00:09:43]  Yeah, for sure.
[00:09:44]  You know, I did those early programs in the San Francisco Bay Area.
[00:09:50]  Right.
[00:09:50]  And Terrence was there and so many of the people I interviewed were there.
[00:09:56]  I used to think of the Bay Area as the capital of the consciousness movement.
[00:10:00]  What year did you interview him?
[00:10:02]  Oh, it would have been in the 1980s.
[00:10:06]  What?
[00:10:07]  Okay, in the 80s.
[00:10:08]  80s, maybe 90s.
[00:10:10]  Okay.
[00:10:11]  The TV program that I hosted, the original Thinking Aloud series, ran from 1986 to 2002.
[00:10:24]  Okay.
[00:10:24]  And then you were in, were you in the Bay?
[00:10:27]  You weren't in the Bay Area in the 70s?
[00:10:30]  Yes, I was.
[00:10:31]  Oh, you still were?
[00:10:32]  Oh, yeah.
[00:10:32]  When were the Manson murders?
[00:10:34]  I don't remember.
[00:10:34]  Yeah.
[00:10:35]  Was that the same time?
[00:10:36]  Well, I think so.
[00:10:39]  Have you ever heard of Tom O'Neill, the guy who wrote the book called Chaos?

=== CIA LSD Experiments (03:57) ===

[00:10:49]  He did a.
[00:10:49]  So, Tom O'Neill, he was a journalist living in LA, and he, in the.
[00:10:54]  God, I forget what year it is.
[00:10:56]  Essentially, he worked for an entertainment music magazine in LA.
[00:11:01]  And, oh, it says the actual year.
[00:11:04]  Yeah, I forget the year.
[00:11:06]  69?
[00:11:06]  Okay.
[00:11:08]  Yeah, August 10th, 69.
[00:11:09]  So I moved to the Bay Area in 69.
[00:11:12]  Oh, really?
[00:11:13]  Okay.
[00:11:13]  Yeah, I just arrived.
[00:11:14]  You just got there.
[00:11:15]  In August, yeah.
[00:11:18]  So, again, Tom O'Neill was working in, I want to say it was like the year 2000, maybe.
[00:11:26]  He got an assignment to write basically an article on the 30 whatever year anniversary of the Manson murders.
[00:11:34]  So we started doing that.
[00:11:35]  And.
[00:11:37]  After about six months, he wasn't interested in this at all to start off with.
[00:11:42]  But after about six months, he started to get all these leads and start getting interested in it and getting led down all these rabbit holes.
[00:11:51]  Like whoa whoa like, couldn't believe what he was finding out about the, about you know what actually happened and all like he's like this isn't matching up because you know the famous Helter-skelter book that was written by the prosecutor um, that was his familiarity with the, with the case, and he was like everything that he was learning was not lining up with any of that stuff.
[00:12:10]  And, long story short, he ended up getting fired from the magazine because he was taking too long and he kept reporting on it.
[00:12:19]  So he would like dedicate the next 10 or 20 years To reporting this, and he followed up on everything from Manson's probation officer and all the people that were surrounding him, all the people that were a part of that clinic, that Haight Ashbery clinic in the Bay Area in San Francisco.
[00:12:43]  And they were doing, apparently, that clinic was funded by the CIA and they were doing these experiments on people.
[00:12:53]  It was part of this operation called Chaos, where they were, you know, it was, it was.
[00:12:57]  Basically, in conjunction with MKUltra and the other one, I forget the name of the other one, but they were doing experiments with LSD and amphetamines.
[00:13:08]  So, giving people amphetamines and LSD and seeing how they could manipulate the mind or control the mind.
[00:13:17]  Yeah, it was chaos, MKUltra, and I forget the name of the other one.
[00:13:22]  Like, Manton kept getting let off probation.
[00:13:25]  He was not supposed to be let off probation all those times.
[00:13:27]  For all these crazy, crazy things, you know, like stealing cars and all this stuff.
[00:13:32]  And he kept getting let out when he shouldn't have been let out.
[00:13:36]  And the fact that he kept going to this clinic that was connected to the CIA and funded by the CIA and all this stuff, it's a fascinating book, but it takes place right in the area where you were, right after those murders.
[00:13:47]  And then, Jolly West, are you familiar with Jolly West?
[00:13:50]  Jolly West was a CIA chemist who did.
[00:13:58]  Famous for injecting the elephant, that giant circus elephant, with LSD.
[00:14:04]  I think he gave him like a couple ounces of LSD and ended up killing the elephant.
[00:14:09]  And he was really proud of that.
[00:14:11]  He bragged about that openly.
[00:14:12]  And Jolly West was also the guy.
[00:14:15]  Yeah, there he is, Joylan West.
[00:14:16]  He was connected to that clinic in Haight Ashbury.
[00:14:19]  He actually visited Jack Ruby in prison multiple times before he died.
[00:14:26]  So, and he was connected to the CIA.
[00:14:30]  So, anyways, that was a long tangent, but it's interesting that this was all going on the same time you were in that area.
[00:14:36]  Yeah, it was.
[00:14:38]  You got, when I think of the Bay Area as the capital of consciousness, you had both the high and the low.

=== Haight Ashbury Connections (05:29) ===

[00:14:46]  So, okay.
[00:14:47]  So, you were talking to people like McKenna.
[00:14:50]  You were talking to people like Jacques Valle back in the day around the same time, right?
[00:14:55]  Right.
[00:14:56]  So, this is just what you went into.
[00:14:57]  You went into journalism, essentially?
[00:14:59]  Well, I was agonizing over what to do for months.
[00:15:04]  Because there was no pathway at the university, and I was a graduate student in good standing.
[00:15:12]  And one day, after months of trying to figure this out, I woke up with a certainty that the answer was going to come to me that day in a dream.
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[00:16:46]  Now back to the show.
[00:16:48]  And I went to bed at night feeling very confident.
[00:16:52]  I'm going to have the dream tonight and it's going to point me in the right direction.
[00:16:58]  And I did.
[00:16:58]  I had a dream.
[00:16:59]  And in this dream, I was visiting some friends who lived across town in Berkeley and married student housing, came up to their apartment, knocked on the door.
[00:17:09]  Nobody was home.
[00:17:11]  In the dream, I found a key, let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room.
[00:17:18]  And there in the middle of the living room floor was a magazine.
[00:17:23]  I picked it up.
[00:17:24]  It was called I, E-Y-E, which in fact there was such a magazine back then.
[00:17:30]  And then I woke up with this feeling of exhilaration, like I have the answer now.
[00:17:37]  But I had no idea what it meant.
[00:17:40]  None at all.
[00:17:41]  So I did something very unusual.
[00:17:44]  I've never done it since, never done it before either.
[00:17:48]  I put on my tennis shoes, ran five miles across town, came to this apartment.
[00:17:55]  knocked on the door just as I had in the dream, and nobody was home, as I had dreamt.
[00:18:00]  And I happened to know where they kept a key hidden.
[00:18:04]  I took the key, let myself in, walked into the living room, and there in the middle of the living room floor, as I had dreamt, was a magazine.
[00:18:14]  It was called Focus, which for any of your viewers who are familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area, that's the magazine of listener-sponsored radio and television, KQED.
[00:18:28]  And as I'm paging through this magazine, it dawned on me for the first time in my life, I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the nonprofit section of the media, which was a complete change because at that moment, I didn't own a radio or a TV.
[00:18:50]  In fact, I had an attitude about them.
[00:18:52]  I felt that electronic communication was phony baloney, that the only authentic human communication was face to face.
[00:19:01]  And I changed my mind at that moment and went to KPFA Radio in Berkeley, where I live, which was a nonprofit radio from the Pacifica network.
[00:19:14]  And I said, I'd like to volunteer.
[00:19:17]  And they said, even though at that point I had a master's degree, they said, sure, sit at this desk.
[00:19:24]  And when you hear the buzzer from people trying to get into the front door, push this button and let them in.
[00:19:31]  And I gladly did it.
[00:19:34]  Within three weeks, I had learned how to produce a radio program.
[00:19:39]  I had produced one.
[00:19:41]  The program director liked it and he said, We have a regular slot, a program called The Mind's Ear, every Tuesday and Thursday at noon.
[00:19:51]  Would you like to host it?
[00:19:53]  So, within just a few weeks of my dream, I'm sitting at a table like this with 10,000 people listening in on the conversation and world class experts from everywhere who are on book tours coming through the San Francisco Bay Area.
[00:20:11]  And all the subjects that interested me the most showed up.

=== Scientology Origins (15:14) ===

[00:20:16]  And that gave me the confidence to go back to the University of California and take advantage of a very obscure rule they had, which is if you are a graduate student in good standing and you want to do a doctoral dissertation in a topic where no department will sponsor you,
[00:20:40]  but you can find three faculty members from different departments who are willing to sponsor you, you can create your own unique individual.
[00:20:49]  interdisciplinary doctoral major.
[00:20:52]  So I did that in parapsychology.
[00:20:55]  Parapsychology?
[00:20:56]  Yes.
[00:20:56]  Okay.
[00:20:57]  For people listening, for normies out there, what is parapsychology?
[00:21:00]  Parapsychology is the scientific study of extrasensory perception, telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, and mind over matter or psychokinesis or telekinesis.
[00:21:16]  Woo woo.
[00:21:17]  Crazy out there stuff.
[00:21:19]  Well, it is crazy out there, but we're talking about applying The scientific method.
[00:21:25]  Yes.
[00:21:28]  When I first learned about this stuff, I was like, this is bullshit.
[00:21:33]  This is complete horseshit.
[00:21:35]  There's no way this is real.
[00:21:36]  These are people out there that have just gone too far, read too many science fiction books until I realized about the program that was quite literally funded by the US military.
[00:21:53]  To do this stuff.
[00:21:54]  And if the US military and the CIA is willing to spend millions of dollars on this stuff, like David Morehouse explained, there's got to be something to it.
[00:22:04]  And the way he put it is I think it was the way one of the generals explained to him, or somebody in the intelligence agency explained to him, he goes, If there's a 1% chance that this works 1% of the time, it's worth a lot of money, especially during the Cold War.
[00:22:23]  So, And I've talked to, I don't know if you're familiar with Jack Sarfati.
[00:22:28]  Oh, very much.
[00:22:29]  Oh, really?
[00:22:30]  He's a character.
[00:22:32]  He's a funny guy.
[00:22:33]  I love Jack.
[00:22:35]  Yeah, we went and talked to him in San Francisco, and he was explaining the background with the SRI, the Stanford thing that was going on back then.
[00:22:44]  Back in 1975, I published my first book, The Roots of Consciousness, and Jack Sarfati wrote an appendix that was published in that book on physics and consciousness.
[00:22:57]  Oh, really?
[00:22:57]  Yeah.
[00:22:58]  What did he say about it?
[00:23:00]  He said that consciousness was related and psychic functioning was related to what's known as the EPR effect in physics, the Einstein Rosen Podolsky hypothesis, which is now known as quantum entanglement.
[00:23:19]  Okay.
[00:23:20]  Anytime I try to ask him something, he just calls me an idiot.
[00:23:22]  Danny, Danny, you're a schmuck.
[00:23:24]  It's the Kapoynikin principle, okay?
[00:23:26]  You got to understand it.
[00:23:27]  You don't understand the Kapoynikin principle, you're a schmuck.
[00:23:29]  You don't know science.
[00:23:32]  He's a national treasure, that guy.
[00:23:34]  Well, he's very arrogant.
[00:23:37]  A touch of arrogance.
[00:23:40]  But he's great from Brooklyn.
[00:23:42]  You know, it comes with it.
[00:23:43]  It comes with the territory.
[00:23:44]  His story.
[00:23:44]  You believe his story?
[00:23:45]  Yeah.
[00:23:46]  His story about when he was a kid, when he got the phone call?
[00:23:47]  I'm very familiar with his story.
[00:23:50]  I have no reason to disbelieve him.
[00:23:54]  On the other hand, I don't know what to make of it.
[00:23:57]  Yeah.
[00:23:58]  So apparently he got a phone call for people that aren't familiar.
[00:24:01]  He got a phone call when he was like, I forget how old, 12 years old, something like that.
[00:24:05]  Sorry, Jack.
[00:24:05]  I'm f***ing this up.
[00:24:08]  And it was some sort of.
[00:24:11]  Being explaining to him, do you remember what it was?
[00:24:14]  Yes, he said it was an intelligent robot.
[00:24:19]  Oh, that's what it was aboard a UFO that told him that it's from the future, right?
[00:24:26]  And that he is going to meet certain people and that he has been destined to help provide a scientific understanding of our relationship with alien beings.
[00:24:42]  Yeah.
[00:24:45]  Hell of a story.
[00:24:46]  It is.
[00:24:47]  Hell of a story.
[00:24:48]  And it's, you know, if there's anything to it, it explains his attitude towards all this stuff, you know?
[00:24:54]  Well, I also think you have to appreciate that when you're dealing with paranormal phenomena, there's a trickster element involved.
[00:25:04]  So many authentic paranormal experiences end up misleading people.
[00:25:12]  How so?
[00:25:12]  What do you mean by that?
[00:25:13]  Well, for example, now Jack Sarfati believes himself to have solved the mystery of UFO propulsion.
[00:25:20]  Oh, yeah.
[00:25:21]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:21]  He figured out warp drive.
[00:25:22]  Yeah.
[00:25:24]  All of that.
[00:25:26]  I have no idea whether his hypotheses are correct or not, but he's convinced that they are.
[00:25:34]  But I think a true scientist would say it's just a hypothesis at this point until it's been demonstrated experimentally.
[00:25:43]  Yeah.
[00:25:45]  Yeah.
[00:25:47]  It's just interesting that there was all that money going into the guy, you know, him, Hal Put off and those guys at Stanford back in the day to do this stuff, this remote viewing stuff and this like this magic stuff that with Uri Geller and well, Serfati didn't get any of that money.
[00:26:08]  No, no, but he was there with them, wasn't he?
[00:26:10]  Well, very much on the periphery.
[00:26:13]  Yeah, he was on the periphery.
[00:26:14]  Right, right, right.
[00:26:14]  He's not going to like this.
[00:26:16]  Sorry, Jack.
[00:26:17]  I love you, Jack.
[00:26:21]  Have you heard of Annie Jacobson?
[00:26:23]  Yes.
[00:26:23]  She wrote that book called The Phenomena.
[00:26:26]  Yes.
[00:26:27]  Fascinating book.
[00:26:29]  And it starts out explaining the story of Uri Geller.
[00:26:35]  And who was the guy who discovered Uri Geller?
[00:26:37]  Andrea Puharik.
[00:26:39]  Andrea Puharik.
[00:26:40]  Yeah.
[00:26:40]  Right.
[00:26:41]  Yeah.
[00:26:41]  Did you?
[00:26:42]  You wrote about Puharik quite a bit, right?
[00:26:45]  Yes.
[00:26:45]  I knew him.
[00:26:46]  For people that don't understand, can you explain who he was?
[00:26:48]  Oh, you knew him personally?
[00:26:49]  Oh, sure.
[00:26:49]  Really?
[00:26:50]  Yeah.
[00:26:51]  I invited him to come and present at Berkeley.
[00:26:55]  in 1972 at a big conference I sponsored called The Frontiers of Consciousness.
[00:27:03]  It's where he gave the very first public report of his work with Uri Geller.
[00:27:09]  And then I invited Uri Geller to come and present and demonstrate his abilities at Berkeley.
[00:27:15]  I think that would have been in early 1973.
[00:27:19]  It was Geller's first major public appearance in the United States.
[00:27:23]  Can he really bend spoons?
[00:27:25]  Yes.
[00:27:25]  Really?
[00:27:26]  Yes.
[00:27:26]  You've seen him do it?
[00:27:27]  Yes.
[00:27:29]  Like picking up a random spoon, you've seen him pick it up and bend it.
[00:27:33]  Well, because David Morehouse was telling me he saw him do it at a restaurant, walked up to someone he didn't know, picked up their spoon and held it and made it bend.
[00:27:44]  Many of these things were witnessed by other scientists, but I myself have personally witnessed maybe three or four instances of that sort of thing.
[00:27:55]  How does that work?
[00:27:57]  Good question.
[00:27:59]  How would you guess?
[00:28:00]  Well, I suppose you'd have to say reality is much more malleable than we normally take it to be.
[00:28:07]  We live in a world that we think operates according to the principles of Newtonian physics.
[00:28:13]  And that simply applies maybe 99.9% of the time, but not 100%.
[00:28:23]  Hmm.
[00:28:24]  Yeah.
[00:28:25]  There was something Annie was explaining in her book, The Phenomena, where there was this new.
[00:28:33]  Part of physics that they were that Puharic was looking into.
[00:28:37]  I forget the word, it was some crazy scientific word, but like essentially what they found out was um, there was a guy by the name of I want to say his last name was Baker who worked for the CIA and he was the polygraph specialist.
[00:28:56]  And one day, I guess he was sitting in the agency board and he said, looking at a plant, he was, I'm going to hook up this polygraph to the plant, Cleve Baxter, Cleve Baxter.
[00:29:05]  Yes.
[00:29:06]  You're an encyclopedia on this shit, man.
[00:29:09]  So Cleve Baxter said, I'm going to light this plant on fire and see what happens to the polygraph.
[00:29:14]  And as he struck the match onto the matchbox, right when he lit the match, the polygraph went off the charts before he even touched it to the plant, which is crazy.
[00:29:27]  And then I guess he went on to cut a plant into multiple pieces, put it in different areas, and see if somehow do tests to see if there was any connection between them.
[00:29:37]  Yeah.
[00:29:38]  Are you familiar with this stuff?
[00:29:39]  I am familiar with it.
[00:29:41]  And to my knowledge, other people have attempted to replicate his findings and have not been so fortunate.
[00:29:49]  Oh, really?
[00:29:50]  Yeah.
[00:29:51]  It often happens in the field of the paranormal.
[00:29:54]  And so, what we don't know is to what extent was he influencing the experiment using whatever native psychokinetic abilities he might have had.
[00:30:07]  So, how long did it take you to get your degree in parapsychology?
[00:30:10]  About seven years.
[00:30:11]  Seven years.
[00:30:12]  I got it in 1980.
[00:30:14]  And did you just choose what to study and like what to read, or how did you go about doing it?
[00:30:18]  Well, it was independent study.
[00:30:20]  So I had a lot of leeway.
[00:30:22]  I was very self motivated.
[00:30:25]  My first book, The Roots of Consciousness, was published in 75, five years before I got the degree.
[00:30:33]  So I considered that book to be sort of the equivalent of a qualifying exam to demonstrate to my academic committee.
[00:30:43]  That I knew the field.
[00:30:44]  It was like an overview of the whole field, that I understood the territory.
[00:30:51]  And did you ever get contacted by the government, the military, the CIA, anything like that to work on any of these special projects?
[00:30:56]  No.
[00:30:57]  Why not?
[00:30:58]  Well, probably because of my history as a pot smoking psychedelic.
[00:31:04]  All these guys were pot smoking hippies in the 60s, weren't they?
[00:31:08]  That was ubiquitous.
[00:31:10]  I don't know.
[00:31:11]  If you had a government contract with the CIA, probably not.
[00:31:18]  Really?
[00:31:19]  Yeah.
[00:31:19]  So how put off?
[00:31:20]  And these guys are foddy.
[00:31:22]  These guys were straight up not touching any of that stuff.
[00:31:25]  That's my impression.
[00:31:28]  I've never seen them use any substances of that sort.
[00:31:33]  I heard Hal Puthoff used to be a Scientologist.
[00:31:35]  Yes.
[00:31:36]  That's interesting.
[00:31:37]  That's definitely true.
[00:31:38]  What do you make of that?
[00:31:39]  Many of the people in the original remote viewing work Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swan, Ed May were Scientologists.
[00:31:48]  Really?
[00:31:49]  Yeah.
[00:31:49]  What do you make of that?
[00:31:51]  I think that L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, was onto something.
[00:31:56]  Really?
[00:31:56]  And he was able to.
[00:31:57]  Communicated to these people and and that I don't endorse or support Scientology, but I think there's something there worth taking a close look at.
[00:32:10]  You know he was the most prolific science fiction writer of all time.
[00:32:14]  I think he wrote more science fiction than anyone like.
[00:32:16]  He's published more science fiction works, I think, than anyone in in history as far as i'm aware, and it's just the.
[00:32:25]  You know the, The way that thing is structured, and you know, there's so many horror stories of Scientology, of people being kept as slaves.
[00:32:34]  Yeah, and uh, I actually interviewed um, the father of David Miscavige on this show years ago, and he was telling some some terrifying stories of what he had to go through like that when he was in Clearwater.
[00:32:50]  This is like 10 minutes away from where we're sitting right now is the flag, the head of Scientology where Eleanor Hubbard used to where he parked his ship.
[00:32:58]  And his dad was explaining how they kept him there and he had to escape.
[00:33:03]  He planned out this crazy, dramatic escape, how he had to get out and he was chased by security.
[00:33:10]  And there was a moment where he was being spied on by David Miscavige's people and he knew they were following him everywhere.
[00:33:18]  And there was a point where he was at the grocery store and he had a literal heart attack at the grocery store.
[00:33:24]  And he knew that those guys were there and they could have helped him.
[00:33:27]  So he was waving for them to help them because they knew that they were hired by his son to spy on him.
[00:33:32]  And they just left and didn't do anything and they were like apparently, like David wanted his dad to just die.
[00:33:38]  So that's very sad, it's very sad and it's yeah um, it's, it's so interesting that all these guys were so so into it.
[00:33:47]  Well, before it was Dianet uh Scientology, it was known as Dianetics okay, and that was the name of the book that he published.
[00:33:54]  Right yes, right and um.
[00:33:56]  I had a mentor in my early years in in the parapsychology program, Arthur M Young, who was the founder of what was known at that time as the Institute FOR THE Study OF Consciousness.
[00:34:09]  He was also the inventor of the Bell helicopter, the first commercially licensed helicopter.
[00:34:16]  And he and his wife, Ruth, went through Dianetics and became Dianetic Clears.
[00:34:22]  Really?
[00:34:23]  Yeah, before Scientology even was founded as a separate organization.
[00:34:28]  And they got a lot out of it.
[00:34:30]  Yeah, I've heard there's a lot to take from it, right?
[00:34:32]  There's a lot of good stuff.
[00:34:33]  There's a lot of good stuff in that.
[00:34:34]  in the book, like, like eliminating all the negative influences in your life, focusing on, you know, and all the most, all the richest people in this town are Scientologists.
[00:34:45]  Not all the richest people, but let me put it differently.
[00:34:48]  Um, most of the Scientologists are very wealthy folks around here.
[00:34:51]  And I don't know what that is.
[00:34:53]  I mean, is there, there's definitely something to it that's really beneficial for, for people before, maybe before you start getting into the guy, the Zenu galactic overlord that came out of a volcano and, you know.
[00:35:08]  I think it's probably true of most cults.
[00:35:10]  They all have something of positive value to attract people.
[00:35:15]  Yes.
[00:35:16]  But then you get the organizational politics and things go bad.
[00:35:21]  Yeah.
[00:35:22]  Yeah.
[00:35:23]  Like the, what was the cult where they all wore the Michael Jordan sneakers and then they all did, they committed suicide in California.

=== Catholic Church Secrets (04:26) ===

[00:35:31]  Oh.
[00:35:31]  They thought they were going to like beam up to a spaceship to, because there was a Hail Bob comet, right?
[00:35:35]  Right.
[00:35:36]  Bo Peep, I think they were known as.
[00:35:38]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:39]  They thought they were all going to like go up to a, they get like beamed up to a spaceship after they killed themselves.
[00:35:44]  Heaven's Gate.
[00:35:44]  Heaven's Gate.
[00:35:45]  That's what it was.
[00:35:46]  Yeah.
[00:35:46]  Mm hmm.
[00:35:48]  That was a real setback for the field of remote viewing as well because a prominent remote viewer was associated with, Promoting the idea that the Halbop comet was being accompanied by a mysterious spacecraft.
[00:36:05]  And so this cult built on that belief, which was not true.
[00:36:09]  There wasn't a spacecraft accompanying the comet, but there had been some photograph, I think, published that might have led one to draw that conclusion.
[00:36:19]  But in any case, the Heaven's Gate people took that to be true.
[00:36:23]  And then the suicide resulted.
[00:36:27]  And so people tended to blame.
[00:36:30]  the remote viewers involved who got on, as I recall, the Art Bell show and proclaimed, you know, that there was a UFO coming along with the comet.
[00:36:42]  Yeah.
[00:36:42]  And, you know, we think they're all crazy, you know, but maybe they did get beamed up to a spaceship and maybe they're the ones that are laughing.
[00:36:50]  They think, you know, look, these guys don't, they think we all just killed each other and we were all idiots, but, you know, we're on a different, we're in a different planet now.
[00:36:56]  We're flying around and flying saucers.
[00:36:58]  Maybe they, uh, We're onto something.
[00:37:01]  Maybe.
[00:37:01]  Maybe the Scientologists are onto something.
[00:37:03]  Who knows?
[00:37:04]  Maybe all these documentaries and all this stuff, it's all just propaganda and strategic deception so that human beings can't figure out that Scientology really is.
[00:37:13]  Maybe all that shit's real.
[00:37:14]  Who knows?
[00:37:14]  Well, there's a lot of misinformation.
[00:37:16]  Yes, there's a lot there.
[00:37:18]  It's hard to know what's real these days.
[00:37:20]  Really hard.
[00:37:21]  That's where a focus on evidence and empiricism and the scientific method can be helpful.
[00:37:29]  Hmm.
[00:37:30]  Yeah, specifically in downtown Clearwater, in the area that's 10 minutes away from here, there's this beautiful downtown area with all these, you know, it's on the water.
[00:37:39]  It's great.
[00:37:40]  Lots of tourists come.
[00:37:42]  Scientology bought basically, like, I want to say it's 75, 80% of all the retail storefront buildings that are right on the main strip there.
[00:37:55]  And they just leave them empty so that, like, businesses don't come because they want to keep it.
[00:38:01]  Just Scientology land.
[00:38:03]  Apparently, they don't want it to be like full of tourists.
[00:38:05]  But there's like this weird shadow war going on between Scientology and like the mayor of Clearwater because they want to bring in businesses and tourists.
[00:38:13]  Scientology doesn't.
[00:38:14]  And Scientology is worth all this money and they apparently, you know, still have a ton of it.
[00:38:18]  And I think they're the biggest real estate holder in the world.
[00:38:22]  They own more real estate than like any business in the.
[00:38:24]  Can you fact check that?
[00:38:29]  See how much real estate Scientology owns?
[00:38:31]  Because I heard.
[00:38:33]  I know like years ago they used to be like the top one or two holders of commercial real estate in the US, but that's probably not true anymore.
[00:38:42]  I found a nice little picture.
[00:38:45]  Y'all can chew on that.
[00:38:46]  Not just in Clearwater though, like in the US.
[00:38:49]  Oh, in the US.
[00:38:50]  Yeah.
[00:38:50]  How much real estate does the Church of Scientology hold?
[00:38:53]  It'll be hard to compete with the Catholic Church.
[00:38:56]  Oh, yeah, for sure.
[00:38:58]  Well, do they really own real estate though?
[00:39:01]  They're kind of a different beast, right?
[00:39:02]  Well, they have these cathedrals.
[00:39:04]  Right, right.
[00:39:05]  All over Europe.
[00:39:06]  And the U.S.
[00:39:07]  Yeah.
[00:39:08]  The Catholic Church is a crazy one.
[00:39:10]  Yeah.
[00:39:11]  That's, you know, I heard there's a lot of spooky in the Vatican, too.
[00:39:17]  Yes.
[00:39:18]  So, I mean, we're here talking bad about Scientology, but there's a lot of bad shit that the Catholic Church has done, too.
[00:39:27]  Well, of course, we have the witchcraft burnings, amongst other things, the Inquisition.
[00:39:34]  But at the same time, the Catholic Church has a very rigorous process for evaluating claims of miracles performed by saints and so on, so that there are some very interesting cases of human levitation.
[00:39:51]  For example, that had been very carefully investigated by the Catholic Church.
[00:39:56]  Yeah.
[00:39:56]  You know, Jeffrey Kripel?

=== UFO Manifestation Claims (15:14) ===

[00:39:57]  Yes, indeed.
[00:39:58]  Yeah.
[00:39:58]  He was telling me that he was called by some guy who was like at the Department of Energy or something, or DARPA.
[00:40:04]  I don't remember what it was.
[00:40:06]  Or some aerospace company called him up to do a, I forget the word he used.
[00:40:13]  He called it like an intellectual lounge where they wanted him, a professor of religion, to explain to them human levitation in like antiquity or propulsion.
[00:40:24]  And it's for propulsion.
[00:40:25]  Propulsion.
[00:40:25]  Yeah, he was a propulsion expert at like JPL or something like that.
[00:40:29]  But what were we talking about before we got on the Scientology tangent?
[00:40:32]  Remote viewing.
[00:40:33]  Remote viewing.
[00:40:34]  Yes.
[00:40:34]  We were talking about how a lot of remote viewers, legendary remote viewers like Hal Podoff, were Scientologists at one point.
[00:40:39]  Now, Hal Podoff was a researcher, not a remote viewer.
[00:40:43]  Okay.
[00:40:43]  Okay.
[00:40:44]  He was also a physicist, right?
[00:40:45]  Yes.
[00:40:45]  He was a physicist.
[00:40:46]  Ingo Swan, who was considered by many people the father of remote viewing, he was psychic, he was an experiencer.
[00:40:55]  And he was also a Scientologist.
[00:40:58]  Yes, and he wrote a lot about him in the Phenomena book.
[00:41:00]  Yeah.
[00:41:01]  Ingo Swan, who had like a really strange childhood.
[00:41:05]  He was a Scientologist his whole life.
[00:41:08]  Well, I don't know when he started or when he separated, if he did.
[00:41:12]  I'm not sure the exact details, but he was a Scientologist and he was instrumental in bringing Ed May into the program.
[00:41:22]  And Ed May was a Scientologist.
[00:41:24]  So I assume that, and also Pat Price.
[00:41:28]  Was a Scientologist, another one of the top remote viewers.
[00:41:31]  So there's definitely a strong connection there.
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[00:42:48]  I would love, I would just love to hear.
[00:42:50]  I don't know if you've ever heard a Scientologist, like one of those guys, explain or make a case for Scientology, right?
[00:42:58]  I've never, because I don't know if they're allowed to.
[00:43:01]  I don't know if they're allowed to like publicly go out and like have debates about Scientology because I know there's a lot of.
[00:43:06]  Weird rules with it.
[00:43:08]  I would just be interested to hear what those guys have to say about it and what they have to say about all the naysayers and all the stuff that's come out about it.
[00:43:17]  It would be interesting.
[00:43:18]  Yeah.
[00:43:18]  Yeah, it definitely would be.
[00:43:21]  And so Ed May is a guy that you wrote a book about, right?
[00:43:24]  No, I didn't write it.
[00:43:25]  Who's the guy that you wrote the book about called The PK Man?
[00:43:27]  The PK Man is a fellow named Ted Owens.
[00:43:29]  Ted Owens, okay.
[00:43:30]  He's a kid.
[00:43:31]  Ed May's the guy who did the Bell helicopter.
[00:43:33]  No, no, that was Arthur M. Young.
[00:43:36]  Arthur M. Young, okay.
[00:43:37]  When Hal Putoff left the remote viewing program at SRI, he went down to Texas to work at a think tank there.
[00:43:47]  And where he began doing other work like looking at UFO propulsion and things of that sort.
[00:43:54]  The program was taken over by Ed May, who is a physicist brought into the program and also a Scientologist brought into the program by Ingo Swan.
[00:44:05]  Okay, okay.
[00:44:06]  So tell me about the PK man.
[00:44:08]  The PK man is a fellow named Ted Owens.
[00:44:11]  Okay.
[00:44:12]  I met him in 1976.
[00:44:14]  I'd been aware of his reputation before then.
[00:44:17]  But There is a remote viewing connection because I met him at SRI.
[00:44:22]  Oh, wow.
[00:44:23]  International.
[00:44:24]  Hal Putoff and Russell Targ were running the program there.
[00:44:27]  Russell, incidentally, is not a Scientologist.
[00:44:30]  Jack always talks about Russell.
[00:44:32]  Russell Targ.
[00:44:33]  I recently published a book of 15 interviews with Russell Targ.
[00:44:38]  Is he still alive?
[00:44:39]  Yes, he just turned 90 last April.
[00:44:42]  Wow.
[00:44:42]  What's he doing nowadays?
[00:44:43]  Well, at the age of 90, he's slowed down a bit.
[00:44:51]  But he still does interviews.
[00:44:53]  Yeah, that's amazing.
[00:44:54]  Yeah, you could probably get him.
[00:44:56]  Oh, I would love to.
[00:44:58]  He's a very good friend of mine.
[00:45:01]  I would call him a dear friend.
[00:45:02]  Do you guys live close to each other?
[00:45:03]  No, I used to live in the Bay Area.
[00:45:06]  So Russell and I would get together practically every week.
[00:45:10]  Oh, okay.
[00:45:10]  But now I've moved far away.
[00:45:13]  Right, right, right, right.
[00:45:15]  So the PK man.
[00:45:16]  The PK man, Ted Owens.
[00:45:18]  I was invited to SRI to experience remote viewing for myself.
[00:45:23]  It was February.
[00:45:25]  1976.
[00:45:26]  Right, right.
[00:45:28]  And I did.
[00:45:29]  I did what I regard as a successful remote viewing experience then.
[00:45:37]  But while I was there, the people in the office were all abuzz about this character, Ted Owens, because he had been writing to them for some time, saying they had achieved already a lot of notoriety, which they didn't want, because of their work with Uri Geller, the Israeli psychic.
[00:45:57]  And Ted Owens was writing to them saying, why are you wasting your time with this Israeli psychic?
[00:46:03]  Because I'm the world's greatest psychic.
[00:46:05]  You should be testing me.
[00:46:07]  And this went on for some time.
[00:46:10]  I'll see you bend a spoon, buddy.
[00:46:12]  They kept ignoring him.
[00:46:15]  And then shortly before my visit, he wrote to them and he said, I'm going to prove to you that I am the world's greatest psychic.
[00:46:24]  And he said, right now there's a terrible drought going on in California, which there was.
[00:46:29]  It was so bad that they piped water where I lived across the Richmond Bridge into Marin County.
[00:46:38]  Oh, wow.
[00:46:39]  And people would say, if it's yellow, let it mellow.
[00:46:44]  Don't flush your toilet.
[00:46:46]  If it's brown, flush it down.
[00:46:48]  So, very serious drought.
[00:46:49]  He said, I'm going to end that drought, and you will know that I ended it.
[00:46:53]  It will happen in a matter of days, and there will be every crazy kind of weather snow, sleet, hail, and UFO sightings.
[00:47:02]  which is my trademark, and your local newspaper will publish an article saying that the drought is ended.
[00:47:11]  And at the time, the newspaper stories were saying no end in sight to the drought.
[00:47:18]  So this happened like three days later after Owens had sent them the message.
[00:47:22]  So Russell Targ sent him back a message saying, That was a very good prediction.
[00:47:31]  Congratulations.
[00:47:32]  And Ted Owens wrote back to them and said, Hell no, it was not a prediction.
[00:47:37]  I caused it.
[00:47:38]  Huh.
[00:47:40]  And that's when they.
[00:47:42]  Said, we can't have this guy here.
[00:47:44]  We're working with the CIA.
[00:47:46]  We're getting government funding.
[00:47:47]  We need to keep a very low profile.
[00:47:50]  But, Jeffrey, you're a young, promising graduate student.
[00:47:53]  Would you mind taking this file that we had, a large file of communication from him, off of our hands?
[00:48:00]  Maybe you could follow up on it.
[00:48:02]  Who said this?
[00:48:03]  Al Put Off and Russell Tower.
[00:48:04]  They told you to take this.
[00:48:06]  Yeah.
[00:48:08]  Which I did.
[00:48:09]  I took their file.
[00:48:11]  And I met Ted Owens a few months later in England.
[00:48:16]  I was attending a parapsychology conference in England, and it turned out that word got out about the drought in California.
[00:48:25]  In fact, they published a little news story about it in a magazine popular at that time called Psychic Magazine.
[00:48:34]  People in England were then experiencing a drought that summer, and they heard about it, and they invited Ted Owens to come to England to end the drought there.
[00:48:46]  And when I arrived in England, I had friends who said to me, if you want to get your picture in the front page of the London Times, all you have to do is walk down Piccadilly Circus carrying an umbrella.
[00:49:01]  People will think you're crazy and they'll take your picture and you'll be in the front page of the newspaper.
[00:49:06]  And so the day that Ted Owens arrived in England, it began raining and pouring so bad it shut down what they call the tube, the subway.
[00:49:17]  System in London.
[00:49:19]  And a few days later, the newspapers said drought is over, just like that.
[00:49:26]  Wow.
[00:49:27]  And so I met him at this conference and we became friends.
[00:49:33]  And that's when I initiated a research project with him that ran until his death in 1987.
[00:49:43]  And I collected, I think, about 160 examples of This sort of demonstration that he did over and over and over again to try to prove to people that he had these abilities and that they were real and that they could be very useful.
[00:50:01]  What was the most compelling evidence that you were able to come up with about him?
[00:50:07]  Well, when I went through the files, one of the things that really caught my eye was the fact that he said he could make UFOs manifest.
[00:50:18]  Eyewitness testimony from police officers who said, Yes, Ted Owens said he would cause a UFO and I saw it.
[00:50:25]  And so I said, Could you do that for me?
[00:50:29]  And he said, Yes, he would.
[00:50:30]  He would create a demonstration in the San Francisco Bay Area where I lived.
[00:50:38]  It would be within, he said, I'll make three UFO sightings within 100 miles of San Francisco and you will know that I caused them.
[00:50:48]  And as the process I was in touch with him a lot.
[00:50:53]  One day I'm on the phone with him, and he said, I feel it coming really strong.
[00:50:58]  He said, This is going to be one of the biggest sightings ever.
[00:51:02]  He said it will be seen by hundreds of people.
[00:51:06]  It will be photographed, and the photograph will be published on the front page of one of your local newspapers.
[00:51:14]  And that happened four days later.
[00:51:17]  Exactly.
[00:51:19]  What was the date?
[00:51:20]  Can we find it online, do you think?
[00:51:22]  Well, if I recall correctly, it was the Berkeley Gazette.
[00:51:28]  Berkeley Gazette.
[00:51:29]  It was the newspaper.
[00:51:30]  I think the photo was December 12, 1976.
[00:51:35]  I hope I have that correct.
[00:51:39]  So, and we would search for like UFO sighting or UFO.
[00:51:44]  I don't know how you're going to search it.
[00:51:46]  I can send it to you if you want.
[00:51:48]  Okay, Steve can find it.
[00:51:49]  Yeah.
[00:51:49]  If you can find it, it would be good.
[00:51:52]  It was on the front page.
[00:51:53]  And here's what happened.
[00:51:55]  It's a more complex story, but the art department at Sonoma State College, as it was then known, it's now Sonoma State University.
[00:52:08]  Sponsored an exhibit of a very unusual art form where there was a pilot named Stephen Pulaski who had a small airplane with smoke trailing out the back and he's making designs in the sky.
[00:52:24]  This is his art form, and so the whole art department is out there with their cameras.
[00:52:32]  A UFO shows up right in his airspace, so it's seen from the air and from the ground, it's photographed.
[00:52:41]  And videotaped.
[00:52:43]  The photograph was published on the front page of the Berkeley Gazette, as Ted Owens had told me.
[00:52:49]  And the videotape was broadcast on the Channel 9 Evening News, KQED, in San Francisco.
[00:52:56]  What did the UFO look like?
[00:52:58]  It was lozenge shaped.
[00:52:59]  It was about, I don't know, 30 feet.
[00:53:02]  Like a tic tac?
[00:53:03]  Yeah, similar.
[00:53:04]  And.
[00:53:06]  What color?
[00:53:10]  I don't recall that a color was specified offhand.
[00:53:14]  But I have to, there you go.
[00:53:16]  That was a tough one.
[00:53:17]  All right, we got it.
[00:53:18]  Boom.
[00:53:18]  Can you punch it on it?
[00:53:21]  Yeah.
[00:53:22]  Oh, I think I found a more higher resolution of this specific.
[00:53:26]  That doesn't look like anything.
[00:53:29]  Well, you see, what I'm pretty sure you're looking at is the airplane itself.
[00:53:34]  Oh, okay, with the smoke.
[00:53:35]  That's the guy with the smoke.
[00:53:37]  The back.
[00:53:38]  When I have reviewed the videotapes, I have reviewed the photograph, it's not at all clear to me that a UFO actually showed up.
[00:53:46]  But I've also interviewed the witnesses who insist that it did.
[00:53:51]  So it's a little more peculiar in terms of understanding what actually happened.
[00:53:58]  But Ted Bullock.
[00:54:00]  Okay, yeah, that's the plane.
[00:54:01]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:54:01]  There it is right on the fly plane, man.
[00:54:03]  Let's read what it says Aerial artist UFO encounter.
[00:54:06]  What is the little fine text underneath?
[00:54:09]  Where the fuck are you?
[00:54:09]  Right there.
[00:54:10]  Yeah, right there.
[00:54:11]  Stephen Pulesky, who, when permitting, creates aerial art by flying a stunt plane overhead while leaving trails of colored smoke.
[00:54:19]  Was startled Wednesday by performing over Cal State Sonoma.
[00:54:23]  Puleski suddenly became aware of a circular white object only a thousand feet away.
[00:54:28]  The event was also captured on Channel Nine TV cameras, and Puleski said videotape reruns check out and confirm the existence of a curious co pilot in the sky.
[00:54:39]  Puleski, a visiting professor at UC Berkeley, may have attracted a vast new audience for his unique art forms.
[00:54:48]  Interesting.
[00:54:49]  Yeah.
[00:54:51]  Wow.
[00:54:51]  And this is right.
[00:54:52]  How long after the guy told you there was going to be sightings?
[00:54:57]  Four days.
[00:54:58]  Four days.
[00:54:59]  So were there any like repeatable experiments that you could do with him that you could document and test?
[00:55:11]  Very difficult.

=== Government Deception Tactics (15:57) ===

[00:55:12]  It's not because this doesn't pass scientific method muster, right?
[00:55:17]  No, but what I did attempt to do because I had very little time, I said, can you do this for me?
[00:55:22]  And he said, yes, starting now for the next 90 days, I'm going to do this.
[00:55:27]  So I thought I'd try to create a control group.
[00:55:30]  Right.
[00:55:30]  Because I had no idea how many UFOs would appear on any 90 day window within 100 miles of San Francisco.
[00:55:38]  Exactly.
[00:55:38]  So I took San Diego, which is a city of similar size on the West Coast and similar social environment.
[00:55:49]  And I had friends who were students in the physics department there.
[00:55:54]  And what I did to test, I sent letters out to all the law enforcement agencies within 100 miles of San Francisco.
[00:56:02]  I had the San Diego people.
[00:56:04]  Send letters out to all the law enforcement agencies within 100 miles of San Diego as a way of comparing.
[00:56:11]  And we actually didn't get three sightings, as Owens had promised, we got two in the San Francisco Bay Area.
[00:56:20]  In San Diego, they got none.
[00:56:23]  So there was, you know, it was a semblance of trying to impose as many scientific controls as possible.
[00:56:30]  But when you're dealing with a character like Ted Owens, it's usually not possible because he.
[00:56:38]  Like to see himself, he called it the Owens effect.
[00:56:42]  He hoped people would use that like the Geller effect for bending spoons.
[00:56:47]  But his idea was that just as you can bend a spoon with your mind, you can affect large scale systems.
[00:56:54]  So he tended to focus in on droughts, on UFOs, on power blackouts, hurricanes, tornadoes, heat and cold spells, large scale systems like that.
[00:57:07]  They're very difficult to.
[00:57:08]  Evaluate statistically.
[00:57:10]  It's not like a clean laboratory experiment.
[00:57:14]  Right.
[00:57:14]  Yeah.
[00:57:14]  You can't measure it in a lab.
[00:57:16]  It's not repeatable.
[00:57:18]  Well, he did repeat the demonstrations.
[00:57:23]  I have documents for 160 some of them.
[00:57:28]  And I would say offhand that roughly two thirds of them worked out the way he said they would.
[00:57:36]  And very unusual things happened that probably had to just my Intuitive sense, maybe a probability of happening of 1% or less.
[00:57:48]  So, did you ever do any experiments with him, like bringing in a box with something in it?
[00:57:52]  You're like, tell me what's in this box.
[00:57:55]  No.
[00:57:55]  Or, like in Annie's book, she talks about they suspended something off the ceiling, like they suspended a flat platform from the ceiling and they would place things on top of it and they would have to go out of body to go figure out what it was.
[00:58:08]  Sure.
[00:58:09]  Those are interesting experiments, but they're different than the things that he claimed to be able to do.
[00:58:15]  I convened a meeting. of researchers, J. Allen Hynek showed up and many other researchers to try and get the scientific community behind doing some serious testing with Ted Owens.
[00:58:31]  J. Allen Hynek, who was very familiar with the case, said, I wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.
[00:58:39]  And the reason is because the phenomenon he produces come out of the unconscious and they're unpredictable and Not into it.
[00:58:50]  So I wasn't, you know, I was a graduate student at the time doing this kind of research.
[00:58:57]  One of my professors at Berkeley, a parapsychologist, resigned from my committee because I was engaged in looking at UFO phenomenon.
[00:59:06]  Really?
[00:59:07]  Yeah.
[00:59:08]  Why would they do that?
[00:59:09]  Because they believed that UFOs and parapsychology should not mix.
[00:59:14]  And there's still parapsychologists today who hold to that belief that You know, it's like we've got one paranormal science and we shouldn't mix it with another one because it would be too difficult or too controversial.
[00:59:32]  What do you think about UFOs?
[00:59:34]  I think the evidence is overwhelming that they've been around for a long time, probably going back to ancient times.
[00:59:43]  I think, as you expressed earlier, the hypothesis that they could be time travelers from the future, I think that's a very viable hypothesis.
[00:59:53]  Yeah, it's my favorite one.
[00:59:54]  But we don't know.
[00:59:56]  It's a mystery.
[00:59:57]  And you referred to Jeffrey Kripel earlier.
[01:00:00]  It turns out I interviewed him last week.
[01:00:02]  Oh, no way.
[01:00:03]  Yeah.
[01:00:04]  And as he points out, he said, from his point of view, the purpose of these phenomena is simply to push us outside of our belief system.
[01:00:14]  Whatever our belief system is, it's going to provoke us to look at things from a different angle.
[01:00:23]  It's interesting.
[01:00:24]  To see how the media and the government tries to play with this thing.
[01:00:29]  Yeah.
[01:00:30]  You know, when you have all this stuff in the press and legacy media, and you have people like this Grush guy and this Lou Elizondo guy come out and do all these podcasts and publish these books.
[01:00:42]  And it's just, I'm very, very, it makes me more skeptical.
[01:00:47]  And I think I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say that.
[01:00:50]  I feel like, and I've said this many times before, I feel like with the trust, for the government in the US right now, if the government was to come out and say aliens are here, these UFOs are from this Zeta Reticuli, whatever you want to call it, planet, and we made a deal with them, I think there would be probably a very, very large percent of people that say, that basically do a 180 from believing it to not believing it, just because the government admits it.
[01:01:21]  I think that's very likely.
[01:01:25]  I don't know what to say about trust for the government.
[01:01:29]  I tend to be more trusting.
[01:01:31]  You do?
[01:01:32]  I do personally.
[01:01:35]  You went through the Vietnam War.
[01:01:37]  Yeah, that's right.
[01:01:39]  I went through the Vietnam episode where people said, don't trust anyone over 30.
[01:01:44]  That was the way we thought back in those years.
[01:01:50]  So I have come to appreciate that as bad as the government might be, what are the alternatives?
[01:01:58]  The various, well, for example, let's talk about the media.
[01:02:03]  Mainstream media has a very bad reputation.
[01:02:06]  Oh, yeah.
[01:02:07]  Nobody trusts it.
[01:02:09]  Except for some people, something my mom trusts is still.
[01:02:12]  I trust it.
[01:02:13]  You do?
[01:02:13]  It's compared to the alternative.
[01:02:15]  Yes.
[01:02:17]  I have a cousin who was a reporter for the New York Times, Steve Roberts.
[01:02:23]  It was Cokie Roberts' husband.
[01:02:25]  And he put it this way.
[01:02:27]  He said, let's take the Drudge Report as an example of the alternative media.
[01:02:33]  The judge report is very proud of the fact that their articles are 85% accurate.
[01:02:39]  He said that would never be acceptable in the New York Times, 85%.
[01:02:46]  That's just sloppy journalism.
[01:02:48]  So, as much as we can question the mainstream sources, whether it's the government or the scientists or the media, the alternatives are even less reliable.
[01:03:01]  I don't think so.
[01:03:02]  I disagree.
[01:03:02]  I think the alternatives are people like yourself and people like me and podcasters who just like to talk to people about stuff.
[01:03:11]  And there's no sort of incentive to not talk about things because of advertising.
[01:03:19]  Like, I don't.
[01:03:21]  Shy away from topics because I have an advertiser.
[01:03:24]  I don't talk about certain things because other people are, I don't have like editors or producers that are telling me what and what not to talk about.
[01:03:33]  You know, you have things like I think it came out a couple years ago that I was like 80 to 90% of the advertising dollars that came in through MSNBC and CNN and Fox were from pharmaceutical companies.
[01:03:51]  During the pandemic.
[01:03:52]  So, like, what is your incentive to question anything when literally 90% of your money is from the pharmaceutical companies?
[01:04:01]  And, you know, especially, and then I had a friend, Jack, who was a former army ranger and was, he's a self published independent journalist who was doing a story on the Ukraine war.
[01:04:13]  And he was doing a story on how the CIA was working with a NATO ally to conduct sabotage operations inside Russia.
[01:04:23]  So, they were blowing up ammunitions, cargo banks, blowing up railroads, and all this stuff.
[01:04:28]  He spent like probably six to eight months on this story.
[01:04:32]  And he had lots of very credible sources in the military, retired CIA officers who confirmed all this.
[01:04:39]  He did all his work, crossed all his T's, dotted all his I's, and he was working with an editor at one of the top three publication newspapers in the country.
[01:04:50]  And they were going back and forth throughout the whole process like, this is great.
[01:04:53]  They were getting ready to launch it.
[01:04:55]  And I think it was in December they planned on launching it, hitting the button to Published the thing, and right before they went to publish it, the editor of this publication said, Okay, the final step is we need to get a sign off from the deputy director of CIA.
[01:05:10]  So he's like, Okay, so they get on a three way call with the deputy director of the CIA, and he says, I completely deny everything that's in here, this is false.
[01:05:26]  So Jack, my friend who was publishing it, says, Okay.
[01:05:30]  I guess that's fine if you deny it.
[01:05:33]  We'll include that.
[01:05:33]  The deputy director completely denies everything that I've said in this article.
[01:05:38]  Instead of publishing it, the editor of the publication says they have an off the record agreement with the CIA and the deputy director.
[01:05:47]  So if he denies it, we can't publish the article.
[01:05:52]  So if you have the government controlling what journalists can put stories out, then what is that?
[01:06:01]  That's not journalism.
[01:06:01]  That's the opposite of journalism.
[01:06:04]  Well, I can well imagine that an article of that sort has all sorts of geopolitical implications.
[01:06:12]  It could lead to war.
[01:06:14]  For all I know, there might be.
[01:06:16]  Sure.
[01:06:17]  Sure.
[01:06:17]  And that was his argument.
[01:06:18]  That was the deputy director's argument that it was bad for national security.
[01:06:23]  But that's a slippery slope.
[01:06:24]  That's a very slippery slope.
[01:06:26]  You can say anything's a hindrance to national security.
[01:06:30]  That's why Julian Assange is where he is right now.
[01:06:33]  That it's a good idea to have conversations about any topic.
[01:06:38]  Yes, totally.
[01:06:40]  But that's not the same as subscribing to the viewpoints of people with whom you're having those conversations.
[01:06:48]  I certainly get the impression from you that you're willing to talk to all kinds of people, but you don't necessarily buy what they're telling you.
[01:06:57]  Right, totally.
[01:06:58]  So, yeah, I think from my perspective and just in general, I don't think that these legacy media outlets are going to survive much longer.
[01:07:11]  I think it's similar to what happened with newspapers.
[01:07:13]  I think they're eventually going to die out.
[01:07:16]  And I think that independent journalism, podcasts, stuff like that is going to rise up and take over.
[01:07:22]  And I think people trust that more.
[01:07:24]  I mean, you can see that with this last election.
[01:07:27]  The guy who won went on every single podcast known to man, including the biggest one.
[01:07:32]  And the candidate who lost didn't.
[01:07:34]  She went on like two podcasts.
[01:07:36]  So it's like if the podcast, I think it's mainly with young people too.
[01:07:40]  I think there's an age group.
[01:07:41]  I think a lot of boomers still trust in legacy media.
[01:07:44]  Like my mom isn't a great example.
[01:07:46]  All she watches is television.
[01:07:47]  And she believes everything she hears on the television.
[01:07:50]  And with that kind of media, you don't hear any arguments to anything, right?
[01:07:55]  It's kind of like an echo chamber.
[01:07:58]  And with social media and with conversations like this, you can get a back and forth, a disagreement, a counterpoint to something.
[01:08:05]  And I think that has a lot to do with why people trust this independent media so much more, especially young people.
[01:08:13]  I think it's healthy that these conversations are happening.
[01:08:18]  In my field of parapsychology, we're pretty much excluded from the mainstream of government, education, science, almost all mainstream institutions.
[01:08:31]  And it's a shame because there's 150 years of solid empirical evidence.
[01:08:36]  Right, right.
[01:08:37]  Is it empirical evidence, though?
[01:08:38]  Yes.
[01:08:40]  Do you think the CIA or the government or the military is still doing this kind of stuff, still spending money on this?
[01:08:44]  David Morehouse seems to think so.
[01:08:47]  Think so.
[01:08:49]  And every time that I have a chance, I ask people who have been involved in the government what they think.
[01:08:56]  And I hear different things.
[01:08:58]  Ed May, who we've referred to earlier, I asked him this question recently.
[01:09:03]  And he said he doesn't think so because there are so many more effective ways these days of gathering intelligence that we don't need remote viewing.
[01:09:13]  That makes sense.
[01:09:14]  On the other hand, it was very useful in circumstances where none of the conventional methods. were available.
[01:09:23]  And I personally have to think that if the government isn't doing it, it would be a mistake on their part.
[01:09:33]  And I also happen to think that given the social controversy and the fact that if they do it publicly, there's going to be all sorts of hoo-ha about, you know, this is the work of the devil and so forth, that it's better for them to keep it secret.
[01:09:50]  Right.
[01:09:50]  Yeah, totally.
[01:09:51]  Yeah.
[01:09:51]  I mean, there's so much stuff that's secret that you don't hear about until 20 years after they start doing it.
[01:09:56]  Like another thing Annie wrote about in her DARPA book was like the stuff that they're doing never comes out to the public for another 20 years.
[01:10:02]  Like it's not, it doesn't come out to consumers for, like for example, Elon Musk's Neuralink, the chip that he's putting in people's brains to help them recover from paralysis or, you know, eventually if you extrapolate into the future, imagine what it could be used for.
[01:10:19]  But she claimed in her research that they've been experimenting on that with soldiers since the early 90s.
[01:10:29]  So, so.
[01:10:31]  And I think that's where most of the money goes too, right?
[01:10:34]  A lot of the budgets, these black, dark budgets, the black budgets that you don't see about, it's not reported to Congress, go to the stuff that has to be kept secret for national security reasons or whatever to go towards this stuff because the most money that gets put into technology and innovation is for war.
[01:10:55]  Right?
[01:10:55]  Yeah.
[01:10:56]  I can tell you, parapsychology got the tiniest little pittance of that $20 million over 20 years is not a lot of money for the government.
[01:11:05]  Right.
[01:11:06]  The way David Morehouse.

=== Time Travel Paradoxes (11:46) ===

[01:11:09]  Was explaining this to me was, there's actually There were experiments done, or you know, when they did the remote viewing programs, the he explained he laid it out beautifully how they do it, basically how they sit down, They have the person sit down, they don't tell them anything and they basically give them like some coordinates and ask them specific questions about what they're experiencing, and they were able to Determine whether or not they were being accurate or not,
[01:11:38]  and apparently they were a lot of the times.
[01:11:41]  A lot of the people were yeah, And you, so did you ever do anything like this specifically?
[01:11:47]  Yes.
[01:11:47]  When I went to SRI International in February of 1976, I did a classic remote viewing protocol.
[01:11:56]  It was one in which they had the outbound experimenter, who happened to be a friend of mine, Elizabeth Rauscher, who was a physicist.
[01:12:05]  And she went off to a location at random.
[01:12:08]  They had a list of 100 or more target locations.
[01:12:12]  And they get into the car, they roll some dice, they choose at random an envelope.
[01:12:18]  from the list of targets and they go to that location.
[01:12:21]  Okay.
[01:12:22]  And so I'm sitting inside of a Faraday cage, which is an electrically shielded room in the radio physics laboratory at Stanford Research Institute.
[01:12:35]  And so no radio signals can get in and out.
[01:12:38]  If I had a walkie-talkie, they couldn't have signaled me.
[01:12:43]  Right.
[01:12:44]  To let me know where they were.
[01:12:46]  It's also an advantage because it's quiet in the sense you don't have any electronic noise.
[01:12:52]  Right.
[01:12:52]  that might otherwise interfere with your neural functioning.
[01:12:57]  So I'm in the room and what I imagined that I saw looked to me and I drew a picture.
[01:13:05]  I thought it was a rack of clothing at Macy's department store.
[01:13:10]  And that's what we would call in the field of remote viewing analytical overlay.
[01:13:16]  I had an image.
[01:13:17]  I drew a picture of it, but then I misinterpreted it.
[01:13:21]  The actual target happened to be a highway overpass.
[01:13:25]  Over Highway 101 in Palo Alto.
[01:13:28]  But if you took my picture of all these hangers coming off of a clothing rack and hold it up next to a picture of the highway overpass that had a cyclone fence surrounding it, they were identical.
[01:13:44]  My drawing matched the target perfectly, even though I totally misinterpreted it.
[01:13:49]  And this is often how remote viewing works.
[01:13:52]  So we tell people who are doing remote viewing.
[01:13:56]  Don't try and interpret what you see.
[01:13:59]  Just report the raw sensations.
[01:14:03]  So try to get as directly to the impression as possible without any interpretation because the mind is always trying to interpret and can easily misinterpret things.
[01:14:14]  They were nowhere near Macy's department store.
[01:14:18]  Yeah.
[01:14:18]  Do you think that this is an ability that everybody has or that it's only manifest in certain people?
[01:14:26]  I would say.
[01:14:27]  By virtue of being a sentient human being, everybody has it.
[01:14:32]  I would say this.
[01:14:33]  Earlier, you were talking about why you disbelieve that psychic functioning could be real.
[01:14:40]  You had a skeptical attitude.
[01:14:42]  But the truth of the matter is, from the materialist perspective, we shouldn't be conscious at all.
[01:14:50]  What do you mean?
[01:14:51]  Oh, just looking at the human body.
[01:14:53]  Just looking at the human body as a machine, there's no reason for consciousness.
[01:15:00]  Conscious, or no explanation.
[01:15:02]  How do you take dead matter?
[01:15:04]  Billiard ball like particles bouncing around and get conscious experience.
[01:15:10]  Yeah, that's a good point.
[01:15:11]  It's called the hard problem of consciousness in philosophy, and it's never been resolved.
[01:15:16]  Yeah.
[01:15:17]  But it's an artificial problem.
[01:15:19]  The problem only exists if you take a materialist perspective and say that, you know, the foundation of all that is real are atoms and molecules and protons and electrons bouncing around each other like inert billiard balls.
[01:15:38]  You could also take the perspective that other philosophers have taken called idealism, that actually reality is based on consciousness rather than matter.
[01:15:53]  Have you ever?
[01:15:56]  There was a theory that we've talked about on this podcast many times.
[01:15:59]  There was a guy, Chardon.
[01:16:01]  You heard of Chardon?
[01:16:01]  Thierry de Chardon.
[01:16:02]  Yeah.
[01:16:03]  He had a theory about sort of like a universal consciousness that exists.
[01:16:08]  The newosphere.
[01:16:09]  The newosphere.
[01:16:10]  Yeah.
[01:16:11]  Yeah.
[01:16:11]  Can you explain that?
[01:16:12]  I'm rusty on it.
[01:16:13]  Well, in some ways, people think of him as a materialist.
[01:16:17]  You could almost say that the satellites that we have, all the electronic communication, the internet is part of the newosphere.
[01:16:26]  Okay.
[01:16:26]  Yes.
[01:16:27]  Yeah.
[01:16:27]  That was a good way.
[01:16:28]  It's a good analogy for what he, the way he, because there's, I think there was, there was examples in history or studies that were done where like a primate on one island would discover one thing at the same time.
[01:16:41]  That a primate on an island on the opposite side of the world would figure something out.
[01:16:44]  Yeah.
[01:16:44]  Right.
[01:16:45]  And the idea is that they're connected somehow consciously with a butt, like in this ethereal layer of consciousness that exists around us and we're just tapping into it.
[01:16:53]  There was a researcher named Rupert Sheldrake who developed that idea.
[01:16:58]  He called it the morphogenetic field that connects all conscious beings.
[01:17:04]  And a biologist named Lyle Watson wrote a book called The Hundredth Monkey, which they talked about.
[01:17:11]  About the monkeys on some Pacific islands learned how to take rocks and crack open coconuts.
[01:17:18]  And as soon as they discovered that this could be done, another island with similar monkeys, 100 miles away, began doing it as if the skill somehow was communicated telepathically.
[01:17:33]  Yeah.
[01:17:34]  Yeah, there's definitely something to that.
[01:17:36]  There's something to that.
[01:17:39]  It's almost impossible to measure.
[01:17:42]  And it doesn't like how do you explain that through physics, right?
[01:17:45]  Like, you can't, that's right.
[01:17:48]  Uh, so well, you can if you think about it, and I'll give Jack Sarfati some credit for uh thinking about quantum entanglement, right?
[01:17:58]  Right?
[01:17:58]  Right?
[01:17:58]  As a way because quantum entanglement does suggest that everything is interconnected, we're not separate from the most distant galaxies, right?
[01:18:12]  Yeah, the multi worlds theory.
[01:18:15]  And this somehow connects to time travel in some weird way.
[01:18:20]  There's the block universe, right?
[01:18:24]  Well, there are all these different theories, the many worlds theory, the block universe theory, are all separate, I think, relatively unrelated methods to account for what you could call the great mystery.
[01:18:39]  Yes.
[01:18:40]  So is the block universe consistent or compatible with quantum entanglement?
[01:18:47]  No.
[01:18:47]  No, the block universe is not consistent.
[01:18:49]  Well, you know, I'm not a physicist, but the block universe came out of Einstein's theory of relativity.
[01:18:56]  Mm hmm.
[01:18:57]  And the idea of quantum entanglement comes out of quantum theory.
[01:19:00]  Right, right, right.
[01:19:01]  They're both really good theories.
[01:19:04]  They both make excellent predictions, uncannily excellent predictions, but they're incompatible with each other.
[01:19:11]  And that's the big mystery of physics right now.
[01:19:14]  How do you reconcile relativity with quantum physics?
[01:19:18]  So far, nobody's been able to do it.
[01:19:24]  Yeah.
[01:19:24]  I think, you know, like we were talking about earlier with.
[01:19:28]  The Michael Masters theory on time traveling humans, like the way, and then how that works in, I think that works in the block universe in a way to where, like, if we could figure out backwards time travel, or the way he started it out was like, if we wanted to go to another star, like we wanted to leave our solar system, rocket time, the way we're traveling, if we travel close to the speed of light on Earth,
[01:19:56]  time travel is like at a thousand times, a thousand X, right?
[01:19:59]  So, like, If we're traveling from one edge of the universe to the other, it takes us like at light speed 44 years, something like that.
[01:20:08]  And on Earth, that would end up being like 40 million years or something crazy.
[01:20:13]  13.8 billion.
[01:20:14]  13.8 billion years?
[01:20:16]  To cross, in fact, probably more than that because that was the original Hubble diameter of the universe, but it's expanded since then.
[01:20:27]  But from the point of view of a traveler on a spaceship, at light speed, it takes no Time at all.
[01:20:34]  Right.
[01:20:35]  It would take a couple decades, probably.
[01:20:37]  No, zero.
[01:20:38]  Really?
[01:20:38]  Can you Google that?
[01:20:39]  How many, say, how long would it take to travel from one, from what, uh, across the universe at light speed?
[01:20:47]  Not the universe, across, uh, yeah, across the galaxy.
[01:20:49]  The galaxy, right.
[01:20:50]  Oh, the galaxy.
[01:20:51]  The Milky Way.
[01:20:53]  The Milky Way is approximately 120 light years across.
[01:21:00]  So 120 light years.
[01:21:02]  Okay.
[01:21:02]  So that'd be 120 years.
[01:21:05]  Yeah, from the point of view of somebody on Earth, or 100,000, I'm sorry, it's 100,000.
[01:21:11]  Okay, maybe they were talking about the solar.
[01:21:13]  How long would it, how many light years across is our solar system?
[01:21:18]  One.
[01:21:18]  That's one light year?
[01:21:19]  Yeah.
[01:21:21]  Two light years.
[01:21:23]  Okay, anyways, I don't know what he was explaining that rocket time, like if we were to travel across, say, halfway across the Milky Way, right?
[01:21:33]  So 50 years roughly?
[01:21:34]  No, the Milky Way is 100,000 light years, so halfway across.
[01:21:39]  be 50,000 years from the point of view of somebody on Earth watching it.
[01:21:47]  But from the point of view of someone on a spaceship traveling at the speed of light, which is an impossibility, incidentally.
[01:21:55]  Photons can travel at the speed of light because they have no mass.
[01:21:59]  So if there are a photon, it would take no time.
[01:22:04]  So from the point of view of a photon, time and space don't exist.
[01:22:09]  Right.
[01:22:10]  So, like, if somebody was to try to go, if hypothetically we figured out light speed, close to light speed travel, the person doing that trip would have to kiss everyone they know goodbye.
[01:22:19]  They would have to kiss the world goodbye because the time they got back, the world would have surpassed so many years.
[01:22:25]  It would be gone.
[01:22:26]  Like, it would be millions of years or hundreds of thousands of years in the future on Earth.
[01:22:30]  That's right.
[01:22:31]  So, like, the point he was making is that it would be futile to go on a trip like this, right?
[01:22:36]  To go on a light, steep speed trip out into the galaxy because, let's say, after 10 years of rocket time on that trip, human beings on Earth would have evolved so much that they would have figured out how to get there with a full belly full of breakfast.
[01:22:52]  They would pull up right next to them and they would have had a left that morning.

=== Stoned Ape Theory (08:14) ===

[01:22:55]  It's like, what have we done?
[01:22:57]  We've wasted 10 years of our life and the human beings have evolved.
[01:23:02]  Yeah, if we get faster than light travel, perhaps.
[01:23:05]  Right, right.
[01:23:06]  That's the case.
[01:23:07]  But, you know, there's the twin paradox.
[01:23:09]  You could have two twins and one travels at the speed of light some distance, comes back, isn't any older.
[01:23:17]  The other twin could be decades older.
[01:23:21]  Yeah.
[01:23:21]  So if we were going to try to do that, if you wanted to get some scientists, Or, astronauts to go out and do this, it would be nice to have backward time travel first so they could go back and see their family again, right?
[01:23:34]  Would be nice, yeah.
[01:23:36]  So, if we were to ever figure out backwards time travel, which I don't know how we would do that, um, there have been seminars on it held at the University of California at San Diego on what they call retro causality, right?
[01:23:51]  In other words, a particle coming from the present could influence something in the past, yes, yeah.
[01:23:59]  And so, it's a question that.
[01:24:00]  Physicists are just starting to look at and are taking seriously.
[01:24:05]  Yeah.
[01:24:05]  And that ties into like precognition, precognitive dreams, stuff like that.
[01:24:10]  Yeah.
[01:24:10]  Eric Wargo wrote about that in Time Loops as well.
[01:24:12]  That's right.
[01:24:14]  So, yeah, his theory is like in the future, if there was like some sort of global thermonuclear war and it killed off a lot of humans, our species would stagnate and we would be homogenized and we would sort of like.
[01:24:31]  We would basically be, you know, we wouldn't be as diverse as a species as we are now.
[01:24:37]  Like, so, so if there was some sort of cataclysm or, like I said, a globe thermonuclear war or something that killed off a lot of species, his crazy theory is I kind of like the theory.
[01:24:49]  I don't think it's that crazy.
[01:24:50]  If we were that capable, we would go back in time and take DNA from past humans to try to diversify our species in the future, right?
[01:25:02]  And maybe that's what's going on.
[01:25:04]  And if you look at all the cases of the abduction cases from like John Mack, right?
[01:25:09]  He, a lot of them are, a vast majority of them are like extracting eggs and sperm from the people that are being abducted.
[01:25:18]  I don't know if it's a majority or not, but it, but there's many, many reports like that.
[01:25:23]  Right.
[01:25:23]  Whitley Strieber.
[01:25:24]  Yeah.
[01:25:25]  He's a big one.
[01:25:26]  Betty and Barney Hill.
[01:25:28]  They're like the most famous ones, but there's, there's apparently a lot of them.
[01:25:32]  And also a lot of them say, Of all the cases I think that were documented by John Mack, I think it was like a 70 30 split between the people who actually asked the beings who they were.
[01:25:49]  30% said they were from some star system, and like 60 or 70% said they were from the future.
[01:25:56]  So that's interesting.
[01:25:57]  And then he's an anthropologist.
[01:25:59]  So what he explained to me was there's this concept called pedomorphism, where I'm going to try to articulate this the best I can because it's complicated.
[01:26:09]  But so he was explaining that in evolution, the farther evolved, the farther evolved, at least for primates, they get, the children of the ancestors look more like the adults of the future descendants, right?
[01:26:30]  So if you look at a baby chimp, it's kind of cut like a bulbous head, sits straight up like this, right?
[01:26:36]  Its body is kind of small.
[01:26:37]  It's more a proportion of a human being, of a human being today.
[01:26:41]  When the baby chimp grows up, it's got a smaller cranium, big muscular body.
[01:26:46]  It's kind of like hunched over.
[01:26:49]  He says that this is something that you can extrapolate into the future of our species, that in 100,000 or a million years, full grown human beings are going to look like the toddlers of today.
[01:27:03]  And if you look at all those accounts, they look like children, those beings.
[01:27:06]  I think it's a very viable hypothesis that the inhabitants of UFOs are.
[01:27:13]  Future humans traveling backward in time uh every, I don't know of any reason to rule that out.
[01:27:23]  It would explain the pyramids.
[01:27:29]  Yeah, it might explain a lot of other mysteries, a lot of crazy mysteries.
[01:27:33]  Right, even I mean, the biggest mystery might be the existence of the human race, to begin with right yes wow, That's deep.
[01:27:45]  Well, consider, you know, 300,000 years ago or so, there were our so called primate ancestors.
[01:27:54]  They didn't, from what we can tell, have large brains.
[01:27:59]  They didn't have speech the way we know it.
[01:28:02]  They certainly didn't have our various scientific and mechanical skills.
[01:28:08]  We don't know that much about them, but something changed.
[01:28:12]  Something changed very dramatically.
[01:28:14]  We are nothing like gorillas or chimpanzees, our closest.
[01:28:19]  Biological relatives.
[01:28:22]  And this is, what is the name of this theory?
[01:28:25]  That aliens somehow genetically alter?
[01:28:29]  Well, this doesn't tie into McKenna's theory, right?
[01:28:33]  No, there was a fellow named Zechariah Sitchin who first proposed it.
[01:28:39]  He began looking at the cuneiform writing of the ancient Assyrian people and their descriptions of the gods.
[01:28:49]  And as he interpreted the cuneiform literature, it looked To him, as if these gods were actually coming down from some other location and performing genetic experiments on the local population to mix their genes.
[01:29:06]  So now that hypothesis is widely disseminated across.
[01:29:11]  This is the Anunnaki theory, where they came down and created a slave species to terraform the earth.
[01:29:16]  That's right.
[01:29:18]  Yeah, that's a wild one.
[01:29:20]  That's a popular one for sure.
[01:29:23]  As far as I know, it It's viable.
[01:29:27]  I can't say that we have strong evidence for it, but it does resolve this mystery of how did humans, modern humans, evolve out of primates.
[01:29:41]  Yeah.
[01:29:41]  Did you ever talk to Terrence McKenna about the monkey mushroom theory?
[01:29:49]  Yes.
[01:29:50]  What's the name of that theory again?
[01:29:52]  I don't know that it has a name.
[01:29:54]  No, there is a name for it.
[01:29:55]  What stoned ape theory?
[01:29:56]  That's what stoned ape theory, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:30:00]  That's a that's probably my favorite one, you know.
[01:30:04]  It also makes sense.
[01:30:05]  There's every reason to think, not just apes, but many other biological creatures like to alter their consciousness in different ways.
[01:30:16]  Yeah.
[01:30:17]  I had a guy in here a couple months ago from India.
[01:30:22]  And he was explaining to us, Steve, maybe you can remember the name of these monkeys.
[01:30:25]  There's these monkeys that are in India that love to eat psychedelic mushrooms.
[01:30:31]  And he was explaining how they act so much like humans, where they will only have like, like, They don't have a lot of kids.
[01:30:40]  They stay with one mate, right?
[01:30:43]  They don't go out and find a bunch of mates like other primates do.
[01:30:47]  They stick with one mate forever and they only have children with them, a couple children.
[01:30:52]  And they raise them, and a lot of the way they live and the things they do in their environment are very, very similar.
[01:31:00]  And he thinks that they're basically evolving with the mushrooms in real, like stoned ape theory happening in real time.
[01:31:08]  Can you find the name of that monkey?

=== Remote Viewing Applications (03:50) ===

[01:31:10]  Do you remember that?
[01:31:12]  I don't remember it.
[01:31:12]  That's okay.
[01:31:13]  I'm trying to find it.
[01:31:14]  It's all right.
[01:31:15]  But you did some sort of competition or something with that billionaire dude.
[01:31:23]  Oh, yeah.
[01:31:23]  The Bigelow essay.
[01:31:24]  Bigelow.
[01:31:25]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:31:26]  What was that about?
[01:31:27]  It was to write a 25,000 word essay on the best evidence for survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death.
[01:31:40]  Why did he want to do that?
[01:31:43]  Well, shortly before he announced the contest, his wife died.
[01:31:52]  And he also had a son and I think a grandson who had died from suicide.
[01:31:59]  Oh, no.
[01:32:00]  Yeah.
[01:32:01]  So he had developed.
[01:32:02]  And I think, to be fair, he had had an interest in the afterlife going back a long time.
[01:32:09]  He had sort of pushed it off to the side.
[01:32:12]  But at that point in time, his wife had died, his grandson and son had taken their lives, and his aerospace business had become basically,
[01:32:31]  how to put it, the governor of the state of Nevada during the pandemic had declared his aerospace business to be a non-essential business so that the employees I mean, he could have kept them on the payroll, I suppose, but they couldn't come into the factory.
[01:32:51]  So he let all the employees go.
[01:32:53]  They were swept up by other companies.
[01:32:56]  And in effect, he no longer had a business.
[01:32:59]  Oh, no.
[01:33:00]  So he decided to do this.
[01:33:03]  Wild.
[01:33:04]  Yeah.
[01:33:05]  I mean, I think it's a very creative solution.
[01:33:07]  Oh, it's super creative.
[01:33:09]  I mean, like people that are willing to spend that much money to do something like this, where there's no monetary return, like there's no profit to be found just out of.
[01:33:20]  pure creativity and curiosity.
[01:33:26]  That's really cool.
[01:33:28]  Yeah.
[01:33:28]  And what was the, so what was the, how did it work?
[01:33:30]  So he, how did he pick people to do this?
[01:33:33]  Well, you had to fill out an application in order to be qualified to write the essay.
[01:33:40]  He wanted serious people who really understood the field.
[01:33:45]  And as I recall, there were maybe 1,200 people who filled out application forms.
[01:33:51]  Some 200 of them were accepted.
[01:33:55]  To write essays.
[01:33:56]  Okay.
[01:33:57]  And how did you get picked?
[01:33:58]  You obviously filled out an application.
[01:34:00]  I filled it.
[01:34:01]  Well, here's the interesting thing.
[01:34:04]  I first heard about the competition from Leslie Kane.
[01:34:10]  Oh, yeah.
[01:34:12]  She works for the New York Times, right?
[01:34:14]  Well, she was a stringer for the New York Times.
[01:34:17]  She'd written articles about UFOs.
[01:34:19]  She had written a book about survival.
[01:34:22]  And she said to me, about survival.
[01:34:25]  Yes.
[01:34:26]  She has a book called, I think it's titled Surviving Death.
[01:34:30]  Oh, wow.
[01:34:31]  Or something of that sort.
[01:34:34]  Was known.
[01:34:35]  And in fact, now that I think about it, I heard about the essay and I reached out to her.
[01:34:39]  I said, Leslie, you should enter.
[01:34:42]  You just published a book on the topic.
[01:34:44]  And she got back to me and said, No, I'm one of the judges.
[01:34:49]  And then she said, You got to listen to this podcast with George Knapp because Bigelow was asked who should enter the competition.
[01:34:57]  And he said, People like Jeffrey Mishlov should enter.

=== Near-Death Experiences (04:54) ===

[01:35:01]  Who said George Knapp said this?
[01:35:02]  No, Bigelow.
[01:35:03]  Oh, Bigelow said this.
[01:35:04]  Okay.
[01:35:04]  Oh, wow.
[01:35:05]  Robert Bigelow said, People who have been studying this material all their lives.
[01:35:10]  That's so cool.
[01:35:11]  Yeah.
[01:35:13]  All right.
[01:35:14]  So walk me through.
[01:35:16]  Well, I told you about my experience with Uncle Harry.
[01:35:20]  Yeah.
[01:35:20]  That was sort of the beginning of my essay because it changed my life.
[01:35:26]  And what I found in going through the literature is that people who have had profound shared death, near death experiences often experience profound life experiences.
[01:35:39]  Changes.
[01:35:40]  Right.
[01:35:40]  Example would be Bishop Pike.
[01:35:44]  I don't know if you remember Bishop Pike.
[01:35:45]  This is in the 1960s.
[01:35:47]  He was the Episcopalian Bishop of California.
[01:35:51]  Episcopalian Bishop of California.
[01:35:54]  Okay.
[01:35:54]  Yes.
[01:35:55]  And his son died.
[01:35:57]  His son died of suicide.
[01:35:59]  And he was terribly distraught.
[01:36:04]  And he was in England at the time meeting with the Episcopalians in England and the English Catholics.
[01:36:12]  And They had a very close relationship with the spiritualists in England.
[01:36:17]  And so his friends said to him, why don't you go and see this particular medium?
[01:36:24]  The name is on the tip of my tongue.
[01:36:28]  And he went, he visited a spiritualist medium who began bringing him very detailed communications from his deceased son, along with the deceased son's godfather, a very well-known theologian.
[01:36:44]  Again, the name is on the tip of my tongue.
[01:36:46]  And so convinced him that these are authentic communications, he resigned as Bishop of California so that he could pursue this further.
[01:36:56]  Wow.
[01:37:00]  Wow.
[01:37:00]  That's profound.
[01:37:02]  A person whose life was changed dramatically, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, a very well known medical doctor who began writing about the stages of death and dying.
[01:37:13]  She got into that field.
[01:37:17]  Well, she had this longstanding interest.
[01:37:20]  And there was a time in her life when it felt like it's not going anywhere for her.
[01:37:25]  She was doing workshops and seminars.
[01:37:28]  She just didn't feel like they were connecting and she was ready to give it all up.
[01:37:33]  And she was about to tell her supervisor at the University of Chicago that she's going to change her career direction.
[01:37:43]  And as she's sitting there about to speak to him, they're standing in front of an elevator, as I recall, when a woman steps out of the elevator and says to her, May I walk with you to your office down the hall?
[01:37:58]  So instead of resigning, she walks with the woman toward her office and she recognizes, wait, this woman is Mrs. Schwartz.
[01:38:07]  Mrs. Schwartz is the woman who first informed her about the near-death experience.
[01:38:13]  Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, simultaneous to Raymond Moody, was writing about the near-death experience.
[01:38:20]  But Mrs. Schwartz had died 10 months earlier.
[01:38:24]  And here she is walking down the hall with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
[01:38:28]  They get to the office and Mrs. Schwartz pleads with her, you must not.
[01:38:32]  Give up your work.
[01:38:34]  Promise me that you won't give up your work.
[01:38:37]  And Elizabeth Kubler Ross had the presence of mind to say to her, okay, I will make that promise, but would you mind writing that down in a little note for me?
[01:38:49]  And Mrs. Schwartz did, wrote down the note.
[01:38:52]  Mrs. Kubler Ross kept that note.
[01:38:56]  And then Mrs. Schwartz walked out of the office.
[01:39:00]  Elizabeth Kubler Ross immediately stuck her head out the door to see if she could see her walking down the hall.
[01:39:06]  There was no one there.
[01:39:07]  Yeah.
[01:39:08]  Wow.
[01:39:08]  And that, you know, another example of a life-changing story.
[01:39:12]  Right.
[01:39:14]  The one about Elizabeth Crone is pretty bananas as well.
[01:39:18]  She's the one who was walking into her synagogue and got struck by lightning.
[01:39:21]  Yes.
[01:39:22]  Yeah.
[01:39:23]  She became a good friend.
[01:39:24]  She left her body and said she went to this crazy garden, this ethereal place, and she had a choice to go to the afterlife or to go back to her body.
[01:39:33]  She chose to go back to her body, which is why that's that's that's that.
[01:39:38]  Blew my mind that story.
[01:39:39]  That's funny, part two, where the I guess the um somebody saw her get struck by lightning and walked it.
[01:39:44]  They ran to the synagogue and said, Is there a doctor in the house?
[01:39:47]  But everyone raised their hand.
[01:39:50]  And as I recall, it turns out there was a doctor who was like the best one, right?
[01:39:54]  For lightning strikes, right?

=== Reincarnation Possibilities (15:44) ===

[01:39:56]  What are the chances of that?
[01:39:57]  Yeah, good lord, yeah, yeah.
[01:40:00]  And she explained like how she walked in the synagogue and she was like trying to talk to people and get help or whatever because she thought she was hurt, but then she realized that.
[01:40:09]  No one was like acknowledging her, interacting with her, and then she turned around and saw her body laying on the ground.
[01:40:15]  Yeah.
[01:40:16]  And then she noticed she's floating six inches above the floor.
[01:40:20]  Right.
[01:40:21]  Yeah.
[01:40:21]  Right.
[01:40:23]  That's so wild.
[01:40:25]  Okay.
[01:40:25]  So, so you wrote about this and you ended up winning this whole competition?
[01:40:29]  Yes.
[01:40:31]  That's wild.
[01:40:32]  How much money did you win?
[01:40:33]  Half a million.
[01:40:33]  Half a million buffs?
[01:40:34]  Yeah.
[01:40:35]  Wow.
[01:40:36]  You pay cash?
[01:40:36]  Give you a suitcase full of cash?
[01:40:40]  It was a check.
[01:40:41]  Yeah.
[01:40:43]  Actually, let's pause real quick.
[01:40:44]  I got to take a leak real quick.
[01:40:45]  All right, Steve.
[01:40:45]  All right.
[01:40:46]  Those are the two biggest questions, you know, that we have is what happens after we die and are we alone?
[01:40:53]  And you're right on the leading edge of all this stuff.
[01:40:55]  And where did we come from?
[01:40:57]  And where did we come from?
[01:40:58]  Right, right, right.
[01:41:00]  So, what do you think happened?
[01:41:01]  What do you think is going on here when people are having these near death experiences and where are we going?
[01:41:07]  I think that the near death experience represents the early stages of the afterlife.
[01:41:13]  The early stages of the afterlife.
[01:41:15]  Okay.
[01:41:16]  Yeah.
[01:41:16]  I don't think, after all, the people have recently died or nearly died.
[01:41:22]  Right.
[01:41:23]  And so this is like, I think the afterlife could be viewed as a progression.
[01:41:28]  I think there are probably almost infinitely many possibilities over time.
[01:41:34]  But, you know, initially you've got to get oriented.
[01:41:38]  Yeah.
[01:41:39]  But what do you think happens after that stage?
[01:41:41]  Where do you think we go?
[01:41:42]  Well, I think.
[01:41:44]  One obvious possibility is reincarnation.
[01:41:46]  There's good evidence that people do or can, let me put it this way, people can reincarnate.
[01:41:53]  Not that they have to.
[01:41:55]  And not that everybody does, but it's an option.
[01:42:00]  Another option would be to move into other dimensions of, you could call it the supersensible realm, other hyperspace dimensions or dimensions, non physical dimensions.
[01:42:16]  Another option might be to reincarnate, but not on Earth, on other planets.
[01:42:23]  I think there's every reason to think that all of those possibilities are. open to people depending on their choices and their destiny.
[01:42:34]  Do you believe in God?
[01:42:37]  Personally, yes.
[01:42:38]  What do you think God is?
[01:42:40]  I think God is the one consciousness that unifies us all.
[01:42:49]  Yeah.
[01:42:50]  Yeah, I tend to agree with you.
[01:42:52]  Yeah, the more and more I think about it, I think that God is the universe.
[01:42:58]  Mm hmm.
[01:43:01]  Or the universe is within God.
[01:43:04]  Or that.
[01:43:04]  Yeah.
[01:43:05]  Yeah, definitely.
[01:43:08]  So after you won this award and you won all this money from Bigelow, after he wrote you the check, what did you do?
[01:43:17]  You have any conversations with him about this?
[01:43:20]  And is he trying to explore this further or push the boundaries of this?
[01:43:24]  Well, he set up an institute called the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies to explore life after death.
[01:43:34]  He invited me to join the board of directors.
[01:43:38]  But subsequently, I think he's an entrepreneur.
[01:43:42]  I think he's moving in other directions.
[01:43:45]  He's creating a new foundation that is taking over that institute.
[01:43:50]  So I don't know what's happening.
[01:43:54]  I think I have to get back in touch with him.
[01:43:57]  He's been very actively involved in politics this year.
[01:44:00]  Oh, has he really?
[01:44:01]  Yes.
[01:44:02]  Interesting.
[01:44:03]  Yeah.
[01:44:04]  He was, in fact, one of the early.
[01:44:06]  He's in Nevada, right?
[01:44:07]  He's in Nevada, yes.
[01:44:11]  Yeah, what were you saying?
[01:44:12]  He's doing a lot.
[01:44:12]  He became a DeSantis supporter.
[01:44:15]  Oh, really?
[01:44:15]  Yes, he gave millions of dollars to DeSantis, and then he got.
[01:44:20]  Really?
[01:44:20]  That's interesting.
[01:44:21]  He got fed up.
[01:44:23]  Why DeSantis, you think?
[01:44:24]  Well, I did have many conversations with him about it.
[01:44:30]  I think he felt that after the January 6th insurrection that Trump.
[01:44:38]  Was not a viable candidate.
[01:44:40]  Oh, and he wanted DeSantis to be president.
[01:44:42]  Yeah.
[01:44:43]  And then, and then after DeSantis signed the bill to make abortion illegal in Florida after what, six weeks, he felt that was too extreme and he switched his allegiance to Trump.
[01:44:59]  He did.
[01:45:00]  Yeah.
[01:45:01]  Interesting.
[01:45:03]  Interesting guy, man.
[01:45:05]  To have that much money and to be willing just to throw it out at all these crazy ideas and crazy, you know, just like.
[01:45:13]  Dump millions of dollars just into curiosity that's not going to pay you back.
[01:45:18]  All the people with the most money in the world just seem like they do the things that's going to make them more money.
[01:45:24]  Well, I give him a lot of credit.
[01:45:25]  I think that nobody has done more to bring the field of survival research into public prominence.
[01:45:36]  I heard something a while ago.
[01:45:38]  I don't know if it's true, but I heard that with all, like there's some sort of rule in the FAA where if pilots or commercial pilots or anything see any kind of UFO or unidentified object in their airspace, they have to report it to his private, I think it was his private aerospace company, but not the FAA.
[01:45:59]  Are you familiar with this?
[01:46:02]  Yeah, sort of.
[01:46:03]  He set up what was called the BAAS, the Bigelow Aerospace Advanced.
[01:46:12]  And something.
[01:46:14]  And then he was close friends with Harry Reid, who at the time was the head of the U.S. Senate.
[01:46:21]  And he arranged with Harry Reid to begin researching the potential threat to national security that might be imposed by UFOs.
[01:46:35]  For example, if nothing else, aviation accidents.
[01:46:39]  Right, of course.
[01:46:40]  And they set up a program that was funded called OSAP.
[01:46:46]  Yep.
[01:46:47]  Advanced weapons.
[01:46:49]  I forget the exact initials.
[01:46:52]  And it ran through his aerospace company and they began collecting data.
[01:46:59]  And so they reached out to, because nobody was making a systematic effort to collect it.
[01:47:05]  Well, there were some organizations like MUFON that were doing some of it, but they reached out, as you point out, and asked the various aerospace, air traffic control people and so on to report to them.
[01:47:21]  I had, you familiar with James Fox, a filmmaker?
[01:47:24]  Yes.
[01:47:24]  Yeah, he was on here and he was telling me he had a meeting with, he actually said it on the podcast, he had a lunch with Bigelow.
[01:47:32]  And he said at that lunch, he told him that he knows for a fact that aliens are walking among us.
[01:47:42]  Bigelow told James Fox.
[01:47:46]  He didn't say he believes it.
[01:47:47]  He says he knows it.
[01:47:47]  Well, he hasn't ever said that to me.
[01:47:52]  Although we might have had, you know, we had many conversations.
[01:47:56]  I've done four interviews with Robert.
[01:47:59]  But I think it's likely.
[01:48:05]  I don't have any evidence for it, but I think it's likely.
[01:48:08]  Yeah, that's the thing about this whole thing, right?
[01:48:11]  There's no evidence of anything.
[01:48:13]  We don't have any evidence.
[01:48:14]  Like this phenomena hangs out on the edge of human perception, and it's almost like it's on purpose.
[01:48:23]  Yes, Jeffrey Kripel said it seems as if it has a purpose, it's to kick us out of our habitual ways of thinking that we know anything.
[01:48:33]  Yeah.
[01:48:35]  But in terms of evidence, now my field of parapsychology has evidence.
[01:48:40]  Yes, and far more than the UFOs.
[01:48:44]  We don't have any evidence of that.
[01:48:45]  I mean, we have people see UFOs or documented accounts, these pilots seeing things, but there's nothing.
[01:48:51]  There's nothing.
[01:48:51]  I mean, even with Grush, right?
[01:48:53]  He came out, and I mean, I've grushed was everywhere for a while like talking about this.
[01:48:57]  These of these whistleblowers, these people that were in this skiff that that testified that they knew there was aliens.
[01:49:03]  He even said there was biologics, whatever the hell that means.
[01:49:06]  Right.
[01:49:07]  Um, and then he came out with the story about the football field size UFO that he walked into.
[01:49:11]  It was like 100 feet.
[01:49:12]  It was like 40 feet long on the outside.
[01:49:14]  When you walk into it, it's as big as a football field.
[01:49:16]  Like I just my brain goes to like, what kind of strategic deception is this?
[01:49:21]  And this guy's is this this guy useful idiot?
[01:49:25]  Um, one of the and and Another person who Annie Jacobson told me about and I got educated on after she told me was Paul Benowitz, his story.
[01:49:34]  Yes.
[01:49:35]  And ever since I learned about what happened to Paul Benowitz, that really kind of changed my view on all of this stuff.
[01:49:41]  In my city of Albuquerque.
[01:49:43]  Yeah.
[01:49:44]  Yeah.
[01:49:44]  So he was like huge a UFO activist going to all these meetings and these conventions about UFOs, right?
[01:49:51]  And he was seeing these things flying above the mountains over an Air Force base.
[01:49:55]  And Richard Doty, the counterintelligence guy, went and said, hey, can we check out what we heard that you're seeing some stuff?
[01:50:00]  Let's see what you got, right?
[01:50:02]  Just to see like what kind of information you actually had.
[01:50:05]  And he told Paul that he thinks they, I think you're onto something.
[01:50:07]  I think these are aliens.
[01:50:08]  These are UFOs.
[01:50:10]  And the purpose, which makes total sense, was to use Paul as a conduit to poison the well of the UFO community, to tell them that it was UFOs or aliens and that the, you know, we don't know what this is because that they assumed, and they're probably right, that there was Russian spies within that UFO community that were trying to figure out what we were doing, right?
[01:50:34]  Because they suspected that it was technology that the Air Force, the CIA was testing.
[01:50:40]  Right.
[01:50:40]  Well, I think there was.
[01:50:42]  I think there were various experimental aircraft.
[01:50:45]  Right.
[01:50:45]  Yeah.
[01:50:46]  And that they didn't want that to be known.
[01:50:48]  Exactly.
[01:50:48]  That's what I meant.
[01:50:49]  Right.
[01:50:49]  And that was the whole point of it.
[01:50:50]  Right.
[01:50:51]  So I wonder how many people right now, like Grush included, are being Paul Benowitzed?
[01:50:57]  Yeah.
[01:50:58]  We don't know.
[01:50:59]  And a great example of this is this gentleman I had on the show.
[01:51:04]  His name's Chris Bledsoe.
[01:51:06]  He's from North Carolina.
[01:51:06]  Yeah.
[01:51:07]  And he sees these orbs, these light orbs that fly around.
[01:51:11]  I know, Chris.
[01:51:11]  Yeah.
[01:51:12]  Yeah.
[01:51:12]  And he took me and Steve out to the beach the night before we did the show with him and his family.
[01:51:18]  And he started saying these prayers on the beach, like praying for these things to show themselves.
[01:51:21]  He believes that they're angelic beings.
[01:51:26]  And after like an hour and a half, there were these weird lights that came up off the ocean, would move around in weird ways.
[01:51:34]  They definitely weren't airplanes because we saw airplanes that were coming in, the air traffic that was coming in and landing in Tampa.
[01:51:39]  It was a very specific flight path.
[01:51:41]  There were a couple specific flight paths that we could see a pattern with the airplanes.
[01:51:44]  They were flashing lights.
[01:51:46]  These were not those.
[01:51:47]  We got it on video.
[01:51:48]  Steve, you have the video?
[01:51:50]  Ever since I changed computers, I don't.
[01:51:52]  We don't.
[01:51:53]  I had to refind it.
[01:51:54]  It's on Dropbox.
[01:51:56]  But, anyways, so like that was wild.
[01:51:59]  But at the same time, I've never seen anything like that before.
[01:52:02]  But at the same time, I've never stared at the sky for two hours straight.
[01:52:05]  Yeah.
[01:52:06]  You know, so is this stuff always there?
[01:52:08]  Well, it reminds me of Ted Owens saying, you know, there's going to be a UFO that will be photographed and shown on the front page.
[01:52:14]  Yes, that reminded me of that.
[01:52:16]  There's a whole category of people who.
[01:52:20]  Practice the art and Ted Owens trained people to do this of summoning lights in the sky.
[01:52:26]  Right right, and uh it it is.
[01:52:29]  It's not so different from bending spoons, right right right, I guess not.
[01:52:34]  And and the other thing about him is that there was more people.
[01:52:38]  He was visited by so many people in the military and within NASA and within other CIA agencies, CIA one guy from the NRO, some really shadowy guy in the NRO that was coming to like his kids, Football games and stuff like that, and like becoming befriending them and trying to figure out, inviting him to the launches at NASA and Cape Canaveral.
[01:53:04]  Your friend John Alexander became good friends with him and like reinforced his belief that these are angelic beings, these are angels.
[01:53:13]  We want to know how that we want to figure out how you're seeing these things.
[01:53:17]  And like they've cemented his belief of this stuff, and at the same time, these are people who are trained liars for the U.S. government, not all of them.
[01:53:27]  But, like the CIA, that's typically what the CIA is supposed to do.
[01:53:30]  Like, you know, in when Area 51 was started, when the CIA pilots started testing the first jet planes, they had to bring gorilla masks in the cockpit with them for in case they came in visual distance of a passenger airplane.
[01:53:46]  If they saw a jet airplane flying, they would put the gorilla mask on.
[01:53:50]  So, if they were to go to the bar and say, Hey, I saw this fucking crazy jet propelled airplane today and it was a gorilla flying it, right?
[01:53:56]  It's strategic deception.
[01:53:59]  We've been playing these games forever.
[01:54:02]  That's a possibility.
[01:54:04]  On the other hand, as I know, Chris Bledsoe is also close with Diane Posolka, who is a religious scholar.
[01:54:11]  Yep, and they work together.
[01:54:13]  And who has pointed out that the biblical descriptions of angels actually are much closer to the phenomenon that he's reporting than to these sort of Hallmark card depictions of little cherubs with wings.
[01:54:30]  Hmm.
[01:54:32]  Yeah.
[01:54:34]  So I think that the supersensible realm is populated by all sorts of beings, including angelic beings, including demonic beings, including alien beings of the widest variety, and that humans are encountering them.
[01:54:55]  And from what I know of the, which is very little, of the people in the intelligence community who have reached out to Chris Bledsoe, I think many of them.
[01:55:05]  Have also had similar experiences.
[01:55:07]  Yeah, they have.
[01:55:08]  Because you're working for the government doesn't make you immune.
[01:55:12]  Right, right.
[01:55:14]  It just gets just knowing the history of the things that they've done and how much money and effort they put into strategic deception to keep people ignorant of what's really going on for national security, whatever their explanation is, whatever their excuse is.
[01:55:30]  There's also healings associated with Chris Bledsoe's experience that you can't explain as simply government deception.

=== Strategic Ignorance (03:55) ===

[01:55:40]  Yeah, that's true.
[01:55:41]  Yeah, there's a lot of stuff.
[01:55:44]  He made a very compelling case on here, and I didn't know what to make of it.
[01:55:47]  Like, no one's ever been able to show me something like that before.
[01:55:51]  And, like, there were other things.
[01:55:52]  There were, like, shooting stars flying above our heads, like, less than 100 feet above our heads.
[01:55:59]  Like, it was wild.
[01:56:01]  You know, there was a character in Las Vegas.
[01:56:04]  He called himself the Prophet Yahweh, and he claimed he could produce UFOs on demand.
[01:56:11]  And so some local TV crew said, let's take him up on it.
[01:56:15]  They went to a public park and he said, they started praying and pointing at the sky and they caught on video some strange object hovering above them.
[01:56:28]  Yeah.
[01:56:29]  In the sky.
[01:56:29]  I think it's actually a normal human talent that most of us never develop because it wouldn't occur to us that we can.
[01:56:40]  But it's probably more widespread in the population than we know.
[01:56:44]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:56:45]  I think, I think too, I think it's probably, I think human beings have like ESP or whatever you want to call it, like a heightened sense of sensory ability or more senses that we that are suppressed and buried inside of us because of the technological world that we live in.
[01:57:09]  Yes.
[01:57:10]  We live in these concrete jungles with artificial light everywhere and, you know, everything is.
[01:57:16]  On screens right in front of us.
[01:57:18]  And, you know, we, and when there's this phenomena that happens, I don't know if there's a name for it, but when people go into like the Amazon rainforest for the first time, they take their feet off and they walk around and they're there for a couple hours.
[01:57:31]  It's like something awakens within them where like the cadence of the crickets or the monkeys or the birds above them, like something is being awakened in them.
[01:57:44]  We're like, wow, I kind of know.
[01:57:46]  How to sense stuff in a different way now, right?
[01:57:49]  That they never experienced before living in our modern technological society that we're accustomed to and that we don't ever escape.
[01:57:58]  I totally agree with you.
[01:58:00]  I think Alan Watts, a philosopher, wrote a book called The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are.
[01:58:09]  We live in an environment where it's to the economic benefit of.
[01:58:17]  People in business, you know, to have workers.
[01:58:20]  And if the workers all began exploring, you know, their deeper potential, what would become of the workforce?
[01:58:28]  Right.
[01:58:29]  Right.
[01:58:30]  Yeah.
[01:58:31]  It goes against the world we live in because the world we live in is based on money and capitalism and profits and making and inventing new things that are going to just drive the economy.
[01:58:45]  And it's this train that we're on, this trajectory that, humanity is on right now.
[01:58:51]  It's on this, we're here to evolve technology, right?
[01:58:58]  And it works right in line with the world economy and capitalism, the way we're.
[01:59:03]  Like if there's no way to get off the train that we're on right now, the way that we're, like the path that we're on as a society and humanity, it's like the direction we're going, it's almost like not the direction you want to go.
[01:59:17]  No, you have the transhumanists saying we're just going to merge with machines.
[01:59:22]  Will we become eventually one big machine?
[01:59:25]  And it's very de souling.
[01:59:30]  Yeah.
[01:59:32]  And unfortunately, most people are caught up in it.

=== Human Science Institute (04:18) ===

[01:59:36]  And, you know, to talk about the things that interest me the most mysticism, psychic functioning, and the like there may be one or two percent of the population that gets seriously involved in even appreciating.
[01:59:53]  These fields.
[01:59:54]  Most people are too busy just trying to put food on the table.
[01:59:58]  Right, exactly.
[02:00:00]  And another guy who talks a lot about the same stuff, who you interviewed, Jacques Valet.
[02:00:07]  You've had talks to them a couple times, right?
[02:00:10]  Yes.
[02:00:10]  What did you make of him?
[02:00:12]  I have the highest respect for Jacques Valet.
[02:00:15]  I first interviewed him in 1973.
[02:00:19]  And I think my most recent interview with Jacques was about maybe within the last year or so.
[02:00:25]  Oh, wow.
[02:00:27]  And you do a lot of in person ones too, or do you do mostly remote?
[02:00:31]  About, well, when I lived in the Bay Area, they were all in person.
[02:00:36]  Right, right, right.
[02:00:37]  People showed up.
[02:00:38]  Yes.
[02:00:39]  And then I moved to Las Vegas, and it became about 50 50.
[02:00:43]  Yeah.
[02:00:43]  Most people eventually will pass through Las Vegas, but now I live in Albuquerque.
[02:00:49]  So we're a flyover city.
[02:00:52]  Yeah.
[02:00:52]  I find that the in person interviews are just way more better.
[02:00:56]  They're way more.
[02:00:58]  Real, and there's like a certain magic you lose through a screen when you're having a conversation like this.
[02:01:05]  Yeah.
[02:01:07]  But it's true, and I appreciate that you went to some expense to fly me here to be with you in person.
[02:01:14]  Yeah.
[02:01:15]  It makes a difference.
[02:01:16]  I appreciate you coming, man.
[02:01:18]  I'm sorry the hotel was lousy.
[02:01:20]  Next time we'll get a better hotel.
[02:01:21]  It was fun.
[02:01:24]  It's been fun talking to you, man.
[02:01:25]  Thank you again for your time.
[02:01:26]  You're welcome.
[02:01:27]  And tell folks listening where they can find all of your amazing interviews and search for you on all the platforms.
[02:01:34]  I'd like to share with people two things, if I may.
[02:01:38]  First is the New Thinking Aloud channel on YouTube, which is newthinkingaloud.com.
[02:01:45]  It's all one word, and allowed is A L L O W E D. Not a L O U D.
[02:01:52]  And I'd also think that some of your viewers may be interested in a new program.
[02:02:01]  The first time in 40 years in the United States, it'll be possible to obtain a higher degree, a master's degree, or a doctoral degree in parapsychology.
[02:02:13]  And I'm working very closely with the California Institute for Human Science to set up that program.
[02:02:24]  We've just launched it and we will be offering these degrees and expanding the program.
[02:02:31]  So if you have viewers who are really serious about getting engaged in 150 years of empirical evidence about human paranormal experience, this is an incredible opportunity that is now available.
[02:02:48]  That's incredible, man.
[02:02:49]  Yeah.
[02:02:50]  And you have the most comprehensive library on your channel.
[02:02:55]  Of interviews and folks that have been deep in this stuff for their whole life.
[02:02:59]  Joe McMonagall, Jacques Valet.
[02:03:03]  Is your Terrence McKenna on this channel?
[02:03:06]  Your Terrence McKenna interviews?
[02:03:07]  If you dig deeply, you could start.
[02:03:10]  It's down there, towards the bottom.
[02:03:11]  It's crazy how long you've been publishing.
[02:03:13]  I was watching that one and I was like, I was watching some of your interviews and I was looking at the date published.
[02:03:17]  It was like 13 years ago.
[02:03:19]  Well, I found that the Pacifica Radio Archive still has some of my interviews going back as far as 1972.
[02:03:29]  Wow.
[02:03:30]  That's fascinating, man.
[02:03:31]  Yeah.
[02:03:32]  Really cool stuff.
[02:03:33]  Well, thanks again.
[02:03:34]  I will link all of your stuff below, including your YouTube channel, so people can go check that out.
[02:03:38]  And thanks again, man.
[02:03:40]  I really appreciate those thoughts.
[02:03:41]  My pleasure.
[02:03:42]  And let me just add the California Institute for Human Science.
[02:03:46]  Their website is cihs.edu.
[02:03:51]  Cool.
[02:03:51]  I'll link that as well.
[02:03:52]  Thank you.
[02:03:53]  Cool.
[02:03:53]  All right.
[02:03:54]  Good night, folks.