Danny Jones Podcast - #188 - Top Aerospace Scientists Suspect UFOs Are Biblical Time Machines | Diana Walsh Pasulka
Aired: 2023-06-04
Duration: 02:34:31


=== Religion Meets UFO Reports (13:02) ===

[00:00:08]  You are a professor of religion and religious studies, but do you personally believe in God?
[00:00:17]  Okay, so let me talk a little bit about what we do in my field.
[00:00:21]  In religious studies, it's a multidisciplinary field.
[00:00:24]  Let's put it a little bit closer.
[00:00:27]  Okay, some of us are archaeologists, some are historians, some are a combination of those.
[00:00:34]  And our method is that we take a step back from belief.
[00:00:40]  We study belief and how belief informs practices and worldwide movements and things like that.
[00:00:46]  Religion is a very powerful force.
[00:00:49]  People will die for their religious belief.
[00:00:52]  So we're academics and we don't actually, like, I don't tell my students what I believe because I don't think it's helpful.
[00:01:01]  We're learning about religion.
[00:01:03]  I'm not advocating religion.
[00:01:06]  But I personally, yes, believe in God.
[00:01:09]  But it's not part of my field.
[00:01:12]  We have atheists.
[00:01:13]  Some of the best people in my field are atheists.
[00:01:15]  Oh, okay.
[00:01:16]  So it's not being a minister or a priest or something like that.
[00:01:20]  I actually did get a master's degree along with priests in formation, Jesuits in formation, from the Jesuit School of Theology, which was affiliated with UC Berkeley.
[00:01:31]  It is part of the Graduate Theological Union, which is very similar to Harvard Divinity School, but Berkeley's version.
[00:01:38]  And then I went on to get a PhD from Syracuse University in religious studies, which is a field of international academics who study religion.
[00:01:48]  A lot of people are religious who study religion, but a lot of them are not as well.
[00:01:52]  So that's the first thing I just want to get clear what the method is.
[00:01:56]  And I've been a person who studied Catholic history for my whole career until I moved over into studying belief about UFOs.
[00:02:07]  And I took my method with me to study that.
[00:02:10]  And we could talk about how I got into studying UFOs because I think that's interesting.
[00:02:15]  But we take the method to study UFOs, which means we don't have to believe.
[00:02:22]  In UFOs.
[00:02:24]  I'm not out to prove that UFO crash debris are real.
[00:02:30]  And this is the subject of American Cosmic, my first book on UFOs, but not my first book.
[00:02:36]  So I think that's important to know I'm not out here crying for government disclosure or whether or not these materials are actually real.
[00:02:48]  I'm out to study the impact this belief has on populations of people, mainly people in the United States, but globally now.
[00:02:57]  Did your early childhood have anything to do with your interest in religion and religious studies?
[00:03:03]  Did you have a very religious childhood and upbringing?
[00:03:06]  Okay, so.
[00:03:07]  Sorry, two faceted.
[00:03:09]  And did your studies and your work at all influence your outlook or your worldview on that?
[00:03:16]  Yeah, I do think that people are impacted by how they were brought up and also what happens around them in culture.
[00:03:22]  So, of course, I'm not exempt from that.
[00:03:24]  That said, I didn't grow up in a particularly religious household at all.
[00:03:29]  My parents were what I would call, I'm from California, Northern California, and it was and still is an eclectic culture where there's new age beliefs and things like that.
[00:03:41]  So my parents were pretty eclectic.
[00:03:43]  My father was Irish Roman Catholic.
[00:03:46]  My mother was pretty secular Jewish.
[00:03:50]  And they were interested in a lot of things, philosophy.
[00:03:53]  So we did have a library of books about philosophy, and I read those as a kid.
[00:03:59]  And I was very interested in religion and philosophy.
[00:04:04]  And I did make the decision to study this pretty young.
[00:04:09]  So, yes, I think I was really interested in how people, you know, people would have pretty extraordinary experiences and these would shift their lives.
[00:04:18]  And I was interested in why.
[00:04:20]  You also have to understand that I went to graduate school during the late 90s, which was the time period of the dot com boom.
[00:04:28]  And so I'm in California.
[00:04:31]  Technology is just kind of flourishing at this time.
[00:04:34]  And I'm seeing that the infrastructure is changing the way people believe in their religion.
[00:04:40]  And so the digital infrastructure, and especially media technology like Star Wars and things like that, you know, people are beginning to have these, I would call them almost like mystical beliefs about things like the Force is with you.
[00:04:53]  And it was impacting their religious beliefs.
[00:04:56]  And so when I went to school, not only did I study ancient texts about religion, Different religions, but I also studied the ways in which people took their own beliefs and they incorporated the lexicon of Star Wars into those beliefs as well.
[00:05:14]  And those were part of the whole landscape.
[00:05:16]  So I really focused on technology and religious beliefs.
[00:05:20]  That was like my focus all throughout studying Catholic history and also studying what I study now.
[00:05:27]  I'm sure you studied religion and belief for a long time before you ever even thought of the UFO phenomenon.
[00:05:33]  Yes.
[00:05:35]  What was it that introduced you to this?
[00:05:38]  Like, what was that?
[00:05:38]  What was the moment like when you first got introduced to this and started to look into it?
[00:05:42]  And what were the biggest connections between this whole, the logic of the UFO phenomenon compared to early Christianity?
[00:05:50]  Right.
[00:05:51]  That's a good question.
[00:05:53]  This happened in 2000, late 2011, 2012.
[00:05:57]  And I had just finished a very major project that culminated in a book about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
[00:06:05]  Which is an afterlife destination for souls who don't quite make it to heaven, but are definitely not going to hell.
[00:06:11]  Okay.
[00:06:12]  And this doctrine kind of had fallen off the map for Catholics.
[00:06:18]  And I wanted to know why.
[00:06:20]  And so I did a lot of study of old materials in archives, manuscripts, and things like that.
[00:06:26]  And so I also talked about Catholic popular culture and how that shifted this belief.
[00:06:33]  And so at the end of that, I had a long conversation.
[00:06:35]  Catalog of reports of aerial phenomena from 1400, 1600, 1700, European Catholicism, you know, that I didn't quite understand, in different languages, by the way, and I didn't quite understand what they were about.
[00:06:52]  A lot of times people believed that these were either angels, sometimes flying houses, sometimes souls from purgatory.
[00:06:59]  And so I kept these and I knew that they were really interesting, but I didn't quite make the connection.
[00:07:05]  I thought, hmm, I wonder what this is about.
[00:07:06]  So I finished my book.
[00:07:07]  My book was in press and I'm on to the next book.
[00:07:11]  But I'm thinking that it's not going to be, it's going to be, it's not going to be about that stuff.
[00:07:16]  It's going to be about a Catholic bishop who was one of the first Catholic bishops in the States.
[00:07:22]  And I show a friend of mine this catalog and I say, what do you think of these reports?
[00:07:26]  And he looked through the reports and he said, oh, these look like Steven Spielberg films.
[00:07:32]  I mean, it looks like UFOs.
[00:07:34]  And I thought he was silly because I was a person who scoffed at this belief.
[00:07:40]  It was a coincidence, but there was a, Conference in my town for people who were experiencers, UFO experiencers.
[00:07:47]  So, I went to that and I heard them talk about their experiences, and I saw that these experiences that they were having were like an exact match with the experiences that I had cataloged from hundreds of years ago up till the present.
[00:08:04]  And I recognized that this was a continual pattern, and it kind of blew my mind at the time.
[00:08:11]  I was like, wow.
[00:08:12]  So, I did a little more exploring, and I started to look at primary source material from Catholic.
[00:08:20]  Experiences like from saints like Teresa of Avila, Saint Francis of Assisi.
[00:08:26]  And when I started to read the primary source material, I saw that it was also very similar to what you would see in John Mack's book, because at this point I read John Mack's book, Abduction.
[00:08:37]  And it literally, these experiences of the saints could be other chapters in his book.
[00:08:43]  And so at the time I knew Jeff Kripel, but not, he's a professor at Rice University.
[00:08:50]  Who looks into this type of thing?
[00:08:52]  And I told him, I said, Have you seen this?
[00:08:56]  And he at first said, No, Diana, no, I don't think so.
[00:08:58]  And then I took some of the stuff that I had translated and sent it to him and said, They're talking about little beings and aerial phenomena and, you know, other things that happened in John Mack's book.
[00:09:09]  And he was blown away too.
[00:09:11]  And that was the beginning of my writing about UFOs and looking into modern day reports of UFOs.
[00:09:19]  And honestly, didn't think.
[00:09:21]  I was going to experience what I did when I went into studying UFOs.
[00:09:25]  I thought it was going to be a natural progression of moving from, you know, using this method that I learned, moving from Catholic history into modern day reports of UFOs.
[00:09:35]  Honestly, I thought it was going to be pretty easy to do.
[00:09:38]  But when I got into the community of studying UFOs, I immediately saw that there was a lot of government misinformation, truthfully.
[00:09:46]  And I also, you know, met high level scientists that were studying in these programs.
[00:09:53]  And I didn't.
[00:09:54]  Actually, they wanted to know what I knew, by the way.
[00:09:57]  They were interested in my field.
[00:09:58]  They thought that they could learn from me.
[00:10:00]  So, this is what happened.
[00:10:02]  And this is how I wrote my first book about UFOs and my second book, too.
[00:10:08]  So, I found myself in an environment that was absolutely completely different from anything I had ever studied before.
[00:10:15]  Now, when you say these experiencers that you met with, their experiences were an exact match of what you were reading in some of these old.
[00:10:24]  Texts.
[00:10:25]  Can you give me some specific examples of what was the thing that stood out to you the most?
[00:10:31]  Yeah.
[00:10:33]  So, this would be disturbing for people who are fairly literally Catholic, right?
[00:10:40]  And by the way, I'm a practicing Catholic.
[00:10:41]  So, it was a little bit scary to read, you know?
[00:10:45]  But so, if you look at Teresa of Avila, she's a nun who is now a doctor of the church.
[00:10:52]  She's a very well known, beloved saint in the Catholic Church.
[00:10:56]  She had an experience.
[00:10:58]  That she had an experience with what she considered to be an angel.
[00:11:04]  But when you look at the primary source material, and this is in the 1500s in Spain, and it's during the time period when there was an Inquisition, Spanish Inquisition.
[00:11:17]  So it's not like she would want to have talked about this, but she did write about it in her diary.
[00:11:24]  And so she had this experience where she was basically praying and off to her.
[00:11:33]  She saw something that she couldn't really understand.
[00:11:37]  It was a being, and it was about three feet tall.
[00:11:41]  And she said it was very shiny.
[00:11:44]  And she said she was confused by it because when she saw angels prior to this, they would be imaginative angels.
[00:11:54]  She made the distinction that this was not an angel in her imagination, but this was an actual fleshy thing.
[00:12:01]  She saw it.
[00:12:02]  And so she was confused.
[00:12:03]  She didn't know what kind of angel it was.
[00:12:05]  And she said, it must be a cherub.
[00:12:08]  A cherub?
[00:12:09]  That's what she said.
[00:12:09]  What is that?
[00:12:10]  Well, it's a type of angel.
[00:12:11]  So in Catholic history, you have different types of angels.
[00:12:15]  And so the cherub is going to be.
[00:12:17]  Kind of a little angel, childlike looking.
[00:12:20]  And so she, but you could tell that she wasn't even sure it was that.
[00:12:25]  And so this can, this, by the way, can only be known by reading her work and looking at her own description of the event, because this is a very represented encounter in Catholic history.
[00:12:39]  And there's a very famous statue in Rome by Bernini, who is a sculptor.
[00:12:45]  And you see her, and it's this little angel, and it has a dart.
[00:12:49]  So You know how John Mack talks about an instrument that people are examined with?
[00:12:56]  So apparently, this little fleshy angel creature examines her.
[00:13:01]  And this was amazing because it was just very strange.
[00:13:06]  She said it examined her?
[00:13:08]  Well, it, yeah, it.
[00:13:09]  Like looked at her?

=== The Fleshy Angel Examines Her (10:02) ===

[00:13:11]  Okay.
[00:13:12]  So you have to understand translation from that time period.
[00:13:15]  So let's be super clear.
[00:13:17]  Okay.
[00:13:18]  So when I say I'm using the word examined, but probably I should not have used that word.
[00:13:22]  It basically said it took this dart and it thrust it into her entrails.
[00:13:27]  Those are the words that she used.
[00:13:31]  So, you know, it was something that I didn't expect to see.
[00:13:38]  So, this would be the example, but there were many more examples that weren't as famous.
[00:13:42]  That's the most famous example, the one that Catholics would know about.
[00:13:45]  But there were a lot of examples that I had that no one would know about because they're not digitized and they're in old manuscripts.
[00:13:54]  And there's lots of these, by the way, at the Vatican Archive and the Vatican Private Archive, which is also known as the Secret Archive.
[00:14:02]  And literally miles of these kinds of things and experiences.
[00:14:06]  Did you read this when you went there?
[00:14:07]  Yeah, I read a lot of it.
[00:14:09]  I did go there.
[00:14:10]  And I took one of the people that was a scientist who was studying this too.
[00:14:16]  And we both went there and looked at this.
[00:14:19]  He was really interested in these experiences because he was also trying to get data for what he was studying.
[00:14:26]  And this is the guy you call Tyler D in your book, right?
[00:14:29]  He keeps his name pseudonymous because he can't be exposed.
[00:14:34]  How long after you started researching this stuff did you meet him?
[00:14:38]  Pretty quickly?
[00:14:39]  Yeah, pretty quickly.
[00:14:41]  And how did you get introduced to him?
[00:14:42]  Okay, so he reached out to me and he said that he was interested in this field and he was working in the space program.
[00:14:55]  He was a mission controller.
[00:14:57]  And.
[00:14:59]  I wanted to know why he was interested in my work because I didn't make the connection that it had anything to do with space, you know, space stuff.
[00:15:10]  And so he explained that a breakthrough in his field was going to come from my field.
[00:15:15]  And so we started to communicate.
[00:15:19]  You have to understand that in 2013, 2014, I was still pretty reticent to talk with people who were affiliated with government stuff because it wasn't my field.
[00:15:29]  It wasn't something that I. Ever thought people would be interested in.
[00:15:33]  So it took me about a year and a half to actually meet him in person.
[00:15:37]  And so, yeah, so immediately I was, I met a lot of people.
[00:15:41]  I met the people that, you know, you call the Invisible College.
[00:15:45]  I met some of them.
[00:15:47]  So, yeah.
[00:15:48]  So, for a person who didn't believe in UFOs, had no understanding of the history, he thought it was all hokey.
[00:15:55]  You know, this was really a strange experience.
[00:15:58]  And you met other people like Gary Nolan, who came out, he was pseudonymous in the first book, and then he kind of like revealed who he was.
[00:16:06]  What was the connection between all these people?
[00:16:11]  Okay.
[00:16:11]  So, they're all studying.
[00:16:15]  What they believe is the modern day, you know, encounter with non human intelligence.
[00:16:22]  But they weren't studying it publicly, right?
[00:16:24]  Well, no, nobody was studying it publicly.
[00:16:27]  This was all before 2021, before the Pentagon, you know, reported that there were programs and that they were studying this.
[00:16:36]  So this was all, and honestly, I, you know, you have to understand, I just didn't, I didn't believe, even when I was in New Mexico, because I did travel to New Mexico with.
[00:16:47]  Gary and Tyler, and we were, we went to an alleged craft site.
[00:16:53]  I was still under this idea that they were somehow misinformed, or they were very, their belief was really strong.
[00:17:03]  And I needed to know why they believed this because they were both incredibly intelligent people, public intelligent people.
[00:17:09]  And so that's why I went.
[00:17:12]  I knew that there was a rising belief in UFOs, and I was trying to understand it.
[00:17:17]  And these guys were like a key to understanding it.
[00:17:20]  So Tyler had said, I don't think you believe in the physical parts of UFOs.
[00:17:25]  And I want to take you to a place where you'll believe after that.
[00:17:30]  And I was like, I'm taking my friend.
[00:17:35]  So I had originally asked Jeff Kripel to go with me, but he said, that's outside my comfort zone, Diane.
[00:17:41]  I'm not going to do that.
[00:17:42]  And so then I asked Gary.
[00:17:43]  I had actually just met Gary.
[00:17:45]  And he was really impressive to me, not just by being who he is, a Stanford professor, but also just really genuinely fascinated by the topic.
[00:17:55]  And he jumped at the opportunity to go.
[00:17:58]  And I also knew that he would be the person to go.
[00:18:01]  You know, if we were going to look for anything, it would be Gary who could figure it out.
[00:18:07]  And so, you know, after a while, Tyler was okay with that.
[00:18:10]  But at first, he wasn't okay with that.
[00:18:13]  And then he looked into Gary and he said, Yeah, let's go.
[00:18:16]  So we went to the New Mexico desert.
[00:18:20]  And you were like blindfolded or?
[00:18:22]  Yeah, we had to accept to be blindfolded to go into this place.
[00:18:27]  And we went there.
[00:18:29]  Took off the blindfolds and we spent all day, you know, accumulating what they believed were UFO debris from a crash that occurred sometime in the late 1940s.
[00:18:42]  And it wasn't Roswell.
[00:18:44]  And you actually found something when you guys were there during that specific day?
[00:18:48]  We did, yeah.
[00:18:49]  And it was hard to get.
[00:18:50]  I mean, the place looked like it had rubble.
[00:18:55]  Well, it did.
[00:18:56]  It had rubble all over it.
[00:18:58]  And, um, And Tyler told me that the rubble was from disintegrated tin cans from the 1950s.
[00:19:06]  And this was something that the editor of the book wanted me to take out because she said, I don't understand why you'd go to, well, she understood why I went to the place, but she said, why would the government put all this stuff out in the middle of nowhere, tin cans?
[00:19:21]  We just need to take that out.
[00:19:22]  And even though I didn't understand at the time, I said, look, we have to keep it in because it's still data, you know?
[00:19:30]  And so we kept it in.
[00:19:31]  Thankfully.
[00:19:32]  And what was it that you guys found?
[00:19:34]  Okay, so we did find some parts, two different types of parts.
[00:19:40]  One looked like almost like frog skin, metallic frog skin, and some other stuff that looked like it just looked like, honestly, I don't know.
[00:19:55]  Metallic frog skin.
[00:19:56]  Yeah, yeah, it was just both were really strange.
[00:19:58]  I still didn't believe.
[00:19:59]  I still didn't believe.
[00:20:00]  Even after Gary got stopped at the airport and things happened, like Tyler said they would happen, and.
[00:20:07]  Yeah, I still don't know.
[00:20:08]  I still don't know what to think about that.
[00:20:11]  But that did happen.
[00:20:12]  That was part of studying what I was studying.
[00:20:16]  And how did that alter or affect the trajectory of your research after that?
[00:20:22]  Like from then on out, obviously you had met Gary and you and Gary had become friendly.
[00:20:26]  But how did that experience going to that alleged crash site affect your mind and your thinking around this whole topic?
[00:20:35]  Yeah.
[00:20:36]  Okay.
[00:20:36]  So I think that we have to see that this is.
[00:20:41]  In its very most basic sense, this is a belief that would be considered by people in my field as a mythology.
[00:20:50]  This idea that we have parts of craft from extraterrestrials and we're back engineering those for technology.
[00:21:00]  This is actually an old myth.
[00:21:01]  This is, you know, the Greeks had the myth of Prometheus.
[00:21:04]  Prometheus was a, you know, god person who gave humanity fire.
[00:21:11]  Which was a tool and a technology, gave humanity technology.
[00:21:14]  So, this is like the modern Promethean myth.
[00:21:18]  That's how I was looking at it.
[00:21:19]  But it's something more than that.
[00:21:21]  And that's really what I was trying to figure out.
[00:21:23]  So, while I was writing the book, it was incredibly difficult to write as an academic because I felt like this is more than a myth.
[00:21:33]  Something really interesting is going on here.
[00:21:35]  And I'm in the midst of it and I have to write about it.
[00:21:39]  How am I going to write about it?
[00:21:40]  Because generally, a person in my field is going to write this academic book that basically says, You know, I was on this journey with these people.
[00:21:49]  They believed this and they keep their distance, but I felt like I couldn't keep my distance, that I was within the myth itself.
[00:21:56]  And so I wrote it kind of as a journey of how I was writing it, actually.
[00:22:01]  So even the book itself was not a typical academic book, even though it was published by Oxford.
[00:22:07]  It's a book that explores not just their belief, but also, you know, the interface of.
[00:22:16]  Me, a non believer, even skeptical, going through this process, seeing the people involved, seeing how the government's really interested in it as much as people are, you know, normal everyday people.
[00:22:30]  And this being kind of a very, very important turning point in history, really, historic.
[00:22:36]  And yeah, so I guess, you know, even with the second book, I kind of continued on that journey of describing it, basically.
[00:22:48]  How do you explain?
[00:22:51]  What's going on now, like in the public media, like the public facing media with like the Pentagon reports and the New York Times talking about and declassifying all these radar encounters with what these Navy pilots are finding and publishing these videos and saying that it's off world technology?

=== Gnosticism And Institutional Power (04:56) ===

[00:23:14]  What do you think?
[00:23:14]  Like, I know you said that you encountered a lot of misinformation and disinformation on this topic, and there's a lot of energy that goes into muddying the waters.
[00:23:25]  But what is your take on the, in the last however long it's been, like six years or whatever, that the U.S. has been trying to make this more public facing?
[00:23:35]  Why do you think that they're doing this?
[00:23:37]  Yeah.
[00:23:37]  Okay.
[00:23:38]  So, again, if you go back to what I study, which is the, you know, religion, you'll see that in mostly the traditional religions, like the big religions.
[00:23:47]  And since Christianity is my field, I'll use that as an example.
[00:23:52]  The early Christian church was completely different than the kinds of churches that, that, were institutionalized, radically different.
[00:24:01]  And what happens during the process of an institution, an institutionalization of belief?
[00:24:09]  Um, so this happens with the Roman Catholic church.
[00:24:11]  They take the Christian belief and then they institutionalize it in the fourth century.
[00:24:18]  And how they do that is they make other beliefs about Christianity heretical.
[00:24:24]  So you have gnosticism, for example.
[00:24:27]  Um, those books are burned.
[00:24:28]  You know, we do have Gnostic texts.
[00:24:30]  But what is gnosticism?
[00:24:31]  Gnosticism is a form Of Christianity that sprung up in the first 300 years of Christianity.
[00:24:39]  And it's, there's different types of Gnosticism.
[00:24:42]  So, different, we would call them denominations.
[00:24:45]  People believe that the knowledge of Jesus or the knowledge that Jesus had is something that they experience themselves, like the Holy Spirit.
[00:24:56]  They feel it.
[00:24:57]  It's more like an experiential knowledge.
[00:24:59]  The way I talk about Gnosticism to my students is I say, take a chocolate bar, okay, would you rather know the chocolate bar by eating it?
[00:25:08]  Or by reading the ingredients on the back.
[00:25:10]  So it's an intimate knowledge of something.
[00:25:12]  That's Gnosticism.
[00:25:13]  That makes sense.
[00:25:14]  So the Gnostic Church was like almost eradicated at that point, or it was submerged into the Roman Catholic Church.
[00:25:24]  So this is the type of thing that you see.
[00:25:26]  You see the institutionalization.
[00:25:27]  And through institutionalization comes some suppression of voices.
[00:25:32]  And so you're going to expect to find that.
[00:25:35]  That's what I'm looking at.
[00:25:35]  And I look at that in the second book.
[00:25:37]  So I was like, okay, we're institutionalizing this belief now about.
[00:25:43]  Extraterrestrials.
[00:25:44]  What are the voices that are being not heard or drowned out?
[00:25:49]  And why is there so much misinformation?
[00:25:51]  So it's a control of information that you see happening.
[00:25:55]  And that's what's happening now.
[00:25:56]  And with early Christianity, before it got institutionalized, it was suppressed, right?
[00:26:01]  Like you explained to me how earlier offline, how Jesus was like spreading this message.
[00:26:06]  And it was like in the Roman Empire, it was frowned upon and people were punished for practicing this religion.
[00:26:15]  Yes.
[00:26:16]  So being Jewish in the first century was hard.
[00:26:20]  And so there were many groups that were trying to exist.
[00:26:24]  And Jesus' movement was one of those groups.
[00:26:27]  There was another group that were zealots.
[00:26:29]  They were basically, they believed in armed rebellion, but there weren't enough of them.
[00:26:33]  So they couldn't pull it off.
[00:26:34]  So Jesus was basically teaching Jewish people, his congregation, the people who would listen to him.
[00:26:43]  He would always talk in parables and things like this, basically.
[00:26:46]  He was talking to people who were ready to listen to him.
[00:26:50]  He was okay with not everybody listening to him, by the way.
[00:26:53]  So he had a very specific message.
[00:26:55]  And so he was basically imparting this to groups of people.
[00:26:59]  And his followers loved him so much that they called him the Son of God.
[00:27:03]  Well, at the time, it was Caesar who was the Son of God.
[00:27:07]  So we tend to look back and think that they had this, you know, the people during that time period had this mythology called, you know, they had the Greek and Roman gods, and that was their mythology.
[00:27:18]  That was actually their religion.
[00:27:20]  So, Jesus' followers were identifying him as primary and the son of God, kind of like the head honcho, against Caesar.
[00:27:31]  And that would be called treason.
[00:27:33]  And so, the punishment for treason is crucifixion.
[00:27:37]  So, he was crucified for treason.
[00:27:40]  So, who was God?
[00:27:42]  Okay, so God would be if you look at, you know, God is either Apollo or Zeus.
[00:27:50]  That you know, so there's you know, but they had somewhat of a pantheism, an idea of there were various different forms of belief in God.
[00:28:02]  So, obviously, Jews had their own idea of God.
[00:28:05]  Um, so yeah, so it was competing divinities at that time.

=== Treason Punished By Crucifixion (15:35) ===

[00:28:10]  I can easily see the parallels in between how the right or the institutionalization of Christianity and the institution that wow, easy for you to say, institutionalization of, of.
[00:28:22]  The UFO phenomenon, how it has always been like this incredibly stigmatized topic.
[00:28:29]  And now they're making it more mainstream so people can.
[00:28:32]  I mean, there's so many blockbuster TV shows that cover this topic.
[00:28:37]  It's almost unfathomable.
[00:28:39]  But that's the thing that the government isn't necessarily talking about the ancient aspect of it or the religious side of it.
[00:28:47]  They're talking about it as it's just technology or like quote unquote aliens, possibly.
[00:28:53]  Yeah.
[00:28:54]  So I think this is interesting.
[00:28:56]  I think that the one thing that shifts this makes it different from the Christianity example.
[00:29:03]  You know, I would say that UFOs right now are having a Christianity moment where there's, you know, the institutionalization going on.
[00:29:10]  But the one thing that's different is that whereas the other was the focus on we have the divinity or we, you know, the Catholic Church is the one who has the access to the divinity.
[00:29:22]  It's an interesting shift in that.
[00:29:25]  This divinity is secular, secularized.
[00:29:28]  Can you define secular?
[00:29:29]  Oh, yeah.
[00:29:29]  Secular is not religious.
[00:29:31]  Okay.
[00:29:31]  There's no religion here.
[00:29:33]  But that completely goes against what I'm looking at.
[00:29:37]  So I'm happy to call it secular if that's what I found.
[00:29:40]  Like I said, I have no, I don't care.
[00:29:43]  You know, I'm not here promoting, you know, the existence of this or that.
[00:29:50]  I'm just doing my job, which is basically to see what I see and then make conclusions based on what I know and the data.
[00:29:57]  And so what I find is that.
[00:29:59]  The very people who are most immersed in the study of even the quote unquote technology are having experiences that I would call religious like experiences.
[00:30:13]  And these are changing them and shifting them.
[00:30:17]  They live really almost like monastic or ascetic lives.
[00:30:22]  So to not include that as data is probably, well, let's just put it this way.
[00:30:27]  I think it's interesting.
[00:30:28]  I'm including it because that's what I see.
[00:30:31]  So I think that the, Public facing aspect of it, not including that data.
[00:30:37]  I think that there are probably reasons for that.
[00:30:39]  One of which is they probably just aren't trained.
[00:30:41]  They don't know.
[00:30:43]  They miss it.
[00:30:44]  So here's an example the recent James Fox film about Brazil.
[00:30:52]  Yeah.
[00:30:53]  Okay.
[00:30:53]  So love his stuff.
[00:30:54]  He's great.
[00:30:55]  He is great.
[00:30:56]  Yeah.
[00:30:56]  So, and I talked to him, I don't know, about 10 years ago.
[00:30:59]  We talked, we were at a conference, and he said, So tell me about the religious aspects of this stuff because I don't see that connection.
[00:31:06]  And so, you know, I kind of, At the time, told him a little bit about it.
[00:31:11]  This was 10 years ago, he asked you that?
[00:31:12]  Yeah, yeah, about 10 years ago.
[00:31:14]  However, this last video of his, oh gosh, moment of contact.
[00:31:20]  Moment of contact, yeah.
[00:31:21]  Yeah.
[00:31:21]  To Varginha, Brazil, there was a crash landing, and apparently there was a being that was running around a town for a couple of days that was captured by the military, or two beings, rather.
[00:31:31]  So this was fascinating to watch, mostly because to me, what was interesting, you know, he's bringing the framework of what I would call the secular idea of the UFO as extraterrestrial crash lands.
[00:31:45]  And then the government covers it up, and people are.
[00:31:48]  Men in black.
[00:31:49]  Yeah, intimidated, and the being looks really creepy, you know, these kinds of things.
[00:31:54]  So, all those elements are there.
[00:31:56]  But what's also there, but what gets completely missed generally, is that this is in a Catholic country.
[00:32:02]  And the people that first see the being, they're like, what is it, a demon?
[00:32:06]  It's not a human.
[00:32:07]  So, they identify it.
[00:32:08]  And they also, there's a lore to demons as well.
[00:32:12]  And part of that lore is that they have cloven feet.
[00:32:16]  And they have a really terrible smell like sulfur.
[00:32:19]  And both of these are mentioned many, many times.
[00:32:22]  They come up repeatedly in the video.
[00:32:24]  And I'm thinking, if I ever see him again, you know, I'll say, hey, you did.
[00:32:31]  You brought up a lot of the religious stuff.
[00:32:32]  But of course, he didn't see it because he's coming from a secular framework.
[00:32:36]  But a person trained in religious studies is going to see that.
[00:32:39]  Or a Catholic is going to see that.
[00:32:41]  Somebody who's very Christian, they're not going to miss that.
[00:32:45]  Yeah, this kind of blew my mind when you told me this last night.
[00:32:48]  You mentioned the Clovis feet.
[00:32:50]  And the smell of sulfur.
[00:32:52]  And this is, so you're saying that this is talked about a lot in some of these Catholic texts?
[00:32:59]  Yes.
[00:33:00]  So I'm not saying that that's what it is because that's, I don't do that.
[00:33:04]  But I'm pointing out that when people had these experiences in 1500, you know, 1600, these are the same kinds of things that they would say.
[00:33:14]  They would say it smelled like sulfur.
[00:33:17]  They would wreck, they would talk about the feet and things like that.
[00:33:20]  Now, there are a variety of different, Experiences that have patterns, historical patterns.
[00:33:25]  But this is just one example.
[00:33:27]  It's a wild example.
[00:33:28]  And like I said earlier, there's really not that many documented cases of actual beings, right?
[00:33:36]  Like this, we're mostly used to seeing like these flying discs.
[00:33:40]  Yes.
[00:33:41]  You know, there's a couple rare instances where there's beings that are witnessed and people that have encountered these things like in their living room or in their bedroom.
[00:33:49]  But there's never been a case where there's been multiple witnesses seeing this thing that was actually taken by humans.
[00:33:56]  Into captivity.
[00:33:57]  Yes.
[00:33:59]  There are examples, though, from Catholic culture of this happening.
[00:34:03]  Like I mentioned the Teresa account where she sees a being, but she doesn't record a smell or anything like that.
[00:34:11]  But it more looks like the beings that populate John Mack's book or the beings that the kids in Westall or Zimbabwe see.
[00:34:24]  So, you know.
[00:34:25]  There's an image of the thing.
[00:34:28]  That's, I guess, in the newspaper.
[00:34:29]  There was an illustration done by somebody in Brazil.
[00:34:34]  Like, how does that thing get here?
[00:34:37]  Yeah, all I can tell you is how people have seen it for a long time, not just in the 21st and 20th centuries.
[00:34:45]  It's been around.
[00:34:46]  Yeah.
[00:34:48]  Movies and documentaries, I feel like they shift our memory of this kind of stuff.
[00:34:56]  They do, yes.
[00:34:56]  Like, people's memory of stuff, especially over a decade.
[00:35:00]  Can get distorted.
[00:35:02]  And then when you take into context that somebody's actually making a documentary that they're going to sell, you know, there's that famous line never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
[00:35:11]  You talk about this a lot in your book how you were kind of like in the middle of this world of scientists and this world of like the media and movies and Hollywood.
[00:35:23]  And you were finding like this connection between the two things.
[00:35:27]  Yeah.
[00:35:27]  Well, it's pretty obvious.
[00:35:29]  So, yeah, I spent a lot of time talking about technology in my book and cognitive science of technology and especially virtual environments and things like that.
[00:35:40]  And the more virtual something is, the more we.
[00:35:44]  Place it in our memory.
[00:35:46]  And I've written a lot about this, not just in books, but also peer reviewed papers and things.
[00:35:52]  And I work with people who are doing this kind of work as well for good.
[00:35:56]  Like when we see things in virtual environments, we believe them, even if we don't consciously believe them.
[00:36:04]  They act on our bodies as if we believed them.
[00:36:07]  So you can help people with PTSD in virtual environments.
[00:36:11]  You can train police officers to deal with stuff or even people in.
[00:36:15]  Space, right?
[00:36:16]  So they use simulations for astronauts and they say that it's so real that when they're in space, they feel like that's not as real as what they felt in the simulation.
[00:36:26]  So, you know, what does this have to do with us, you know, just normal people and our interface, constant interface with technology?
[00:36:35]  And I basically was saying that we're misremembering things and a lot of that's on purpose and intentional for selling stuff, right?
[00:36:46]  So people want to make a lot of money from their digital content.
[00:36:50]  And so, when this is an example, Jacques Valet had this happen to him.
[00:36:54]  I've had it happen to me.
[00:36:56]  So, for Jacques' case, he said that when Whitley Strieber's book Communion came out, you know, there's that picture of the alien on the cover of Communion, and it looks a lot like the James Fox alien.
[00:37:09]  Maybe a nicer version of it, a more friendly version.
[00:37:14]  And so, Jacques said that it influenced researchers, ufologists.
[00:37:18]  So, ufologists are people who study.
[00:37:20]  This topic.
[00:37:22]  And so they would go to a sighting, you know, a reported sighting.
[00:37:26]  And if people didn't, if people had seen stuff that did not look like Whitley's cover of communion, they would discount it as a legitimate encounter.
[00:37:37]  And Jacques said, you know, he just mentioned it.
[00:37:39]  And I encountered this a lot.
[00:37:41]  So after American Cosmic was published, I had people from all over the world sending me videos of their encounters.
[00:37:48]  And a lot of them were interesting.
[00:37:51]  And of course, now I have friends who look at that stuff and They're like, yeah, that's definitely not our stuff, you know, or something like that.
[00:37:58]  And I showed somebody who is a researcher, a well known researcher, I showed her a video and I said, you know, and she said, that doesn't look like a flying saucer.
[00:38:09]  And I'm thinking, well, how do you know what a flying saucer looks like?
[00:38:12]  You know, because we just don't know because we've only had drawings of flying saucers, you know.
[00:38:18]  So when you actually do, that's why in my next book, Encounters, what I did was I focused on people.
[00:38:26]  A lot of different types of people, too, like trained observers, people in the Space Force, you know, people who are just kind of normal people.
[00:38:36]  And if you go back to them and what they saw, it looks pretty different than what we see.
[00:38:44]  You know, there's similarities to what we see in media, but you can see how media is taking it and only focusing on certain types of encounters.
[00:38:52]  And I'll give you an example.
[00:38:54]  There was a really interesting example that happened, it was a UFO flash.
[00:38:58]  That happened in Brockport, New York in the 1960s.
[00:39:01]  And more than 30 people, credible witnesses, witnessed a series of UFOs.
[00:39:08]  The first person to report it, and this report went to NICAP, and this is in 67, was this night watchman.
[00:39:16]  And he saw, he went out into the parking lot of where he was, you know, working, and he saw a craft parked in the parking lot.
[00:39:24]  And he said he saw these little, three little beings come out, or maybe two, I can't remember, come out and run around.
[00:39:31]  And he reported it right away, and nobody believed him, and everybody.
[00:39:35]  You know, they thought it was a disc, they just didn't think it was a credible report.
[00:39:40]  But immediately after that, all these credible people started to see what looked like a kind of Steven Spielberg type UFO in the sky.
[00:39:49]  And I interviewed a witness to that event.
[00:39:51]  He was a kid at the time, a teenager, and he and his friends saw it.
[00:39:56]  And a lot of people saw it police officers saw it, teachers saw it.
[00:40:01]  And so NICAP then took their reports, but completely discounted.
[00:40:06]  The first guy's report because it was so weird.
[00:40:09]  So, there's a lot of different stuff happening in reporting.
[00:40:12]  So, you know, if the report is too strange, people won't take it seriously.
[00:40:17]  But if it's kind of, you know, mystical Steven Spielberg type UFO, people are like, oh, ready to believe it.
[00:40:25]  My previous view on this whole phenomena was like it's very technological.
[00:40:32]  And as soon as anyone started to mention anything about poltergeists or mysticism or.
[00:40:41]  You know, anything that is paranormal, I started to like take a huge step back and be like, okay, I can't take this person seriously.
[00:40:51]  But after reading your book and hearing how all of these people report all these similar experiences, even though they don't understand what it is, but they describe it to you.
[00:41:03]  Like, for instance, the guy, Gray Man was his name.
[00:41:05]  Yeah.
[00:41:06]  He had a crazy experience with this being hovering above him at night and he described it to you.
[00:41:12]  And you said what he described to you was to the T. Uh, the saint, Saint Michael, the archangel, yeah, he didn't even know it.
[00:41:21]  So, like, that was the point in reading your book where, like, I had to put it down and take a walk.
[00:41:26]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:41:29]  So, who is this guy, Gray Man, and um, was he similar to Tyler?
[00:41:34]  Well, he worked in the same field, um, and he has to be pseudonymous because of that.
[00:41:40]  So, he works in the same field, but he's not from this country, he's from Australia.
[00:41:44]  So, um, and he was really, really careful about.
[00:41:50]  Things that he's told me.
[00:41:53]  And so he had personal experiences that were of this phenomena, both seeing it as like something in the sky, like aerial phenomena, and also personal experiences.
[00:42:11]  So, what I found was that a lot of people who have, when there are sightings of things in the sky, like aerial phenomena, some people just see aerial phenomena and that's it, and they don't have these experiences.
[00:42:22]  Other people might even have the experiences not even in that vicinity and not even see something in the sky, but have experiences of it, which I found strange.
[00:42:31]  And again, I don't, I'm not concluding right now as to what's going on because there's too much.
[00:42:39]  I just don't know.
[00:42:40]  And a lot of people have to bring data, right?
[00:42:44]  We need more data, basically.
[00:42:45]  And we need more, more people like looking at this and taking the data and not discounting stuff because it's so weird.
[00:42:53]  I guess part, and I'm with you.
[00:42:55]  Like, I used to discount people like this all the time.
[00:42:59]  I don't believe in it at all.
[00:43:01]  I think that what we need is we need someone who's like that, who comes along and says that, you know, I was kind of trained to look at weird stuff because I'm in religious studies.
[00:43:16]  You know, what do people believe in religion?
[00:43:18]  Well, if you look at what you're, if you're religious and you're believing some stuff that can't be proven, you know, if you believe in angels, we've never proven that an angel exists.
[00:43:29]  We can't put it under the microscope.
[00:43:30]  So we have no, Objective proof of religion.
[00:43:33]  So, I'm already trained in this method.
[00:43:35]  So, looking at UFOs, we have a lot more proof of those.
[00:43:39]  You know, we have like radar, we have the government now basically saying, Yeah, there are these things.

=== Jack Parsons And Scientology (12:52) ===

[00:43:45]  We just don't know what they are.
[00:43:47]  You know, they could present a problem for us in airspace and things like that.
[00:43:51]  And of course, we have people studying them in these programs.
[00:43:54]  And a lot of the people that study them in programs have very weird experiences that are not talked about.
[00:44:00]  Even the history of the space program, the Russian and our space program.
[00:44:05]  American space program, you know, we have founders who had really interesting experiences like Jack Parsons.
[00:44:12]  Yeah.
[00:44:12]  On the one hand, totally bizarre, you know, and most people would not want to talk about that, especially if they're working for NASA or aerospace.
[00:44:22]  You know, they're not going to talk about that.
[00:44:23]  Could you describe briefly to people who Jack Parsons was?
[00:44:26]  Yeah.
[00:44:27]  So, okay.
[00:44:28]  So there's a couple of people that are recognized as the father of rocketry.
[00:44:34]  They basically created the calculations to get us into space, to get us.
[00:44:39]  Output transcript Out into space.
[00:44:41]  And one of these people is Jack Parsons, probably the most effective.
[00:44:48]  Werner von Braun is one as well.
[00:44:52]  But he actually gave a lot of credit to Parsons and said, Parsons figured all of this out.
[00:44:56]  And how did Parsons figure this out?
[00:44:58]  Well, he had a really interesting way.
[00:45:01]  He lived in the early 20th century and he was working on rocket technology, but he also was a friend of L. Ron Hubbard, who started Scientology, and Aleister Crowley.
[00:45:12]  And he had this.
[00:45:13]  Crazy life.
[00:45:14]  And he lived in Los Angeles and he would do rituals in the desert.
[00:45:18]  And he thought that these kinds of things would help him basically download this rocket technology.
[00:45:25]  And it's weird.
[00:45:28]  But as weird is Konstantin Tchaikovsky on the Russian side, who didn't have the same belief system as Parsons, but believed that he was in contact with angelic presences who would also allow him to, you know, create this rocket.
[00:45:47]  Technology, so that's what I'm talking about.
[00:45:50]  Is like the people who are the most valuable to this program are the people that are doing the stuff that most people would have discounted because it's so weird.
[00:46:00]  What was he doing hanging out with L. Ron Hubbard?
[00:46:03]  They were tell, and what is what I'm interested to hear your take on Scientology.
[00:46:08]  Okay, well, um, I don't ever talk about Scientology to tell you the truth, I do teach about it in my class, not publicly.
[00:46:15]  Okay, is that something that is on purpose or is just no one's interested?
[00:46:20]  No, everyone's interested.
[00:46:20]  Oh, okay.
[00:46:21]  Yeah.
[00:46:22]  You could get sued talking about Scientology.
[00:46:24]  Right, right.
[00:46:25]  You don't talk about it.
[00:46:25]  Yeah, I've had a lot of people on here talking about Scientology.
[00:46:28]  L. Ron Hubbard, I think he was one of the most prolific science fiction authors of all time.
[00:46:32]  Like, he wrote more science fiction than anyone.
[00:46:35]  Yeah.
[00:46:35]  And he started a religion.
[00:46:37]  And he started a religion.
[00:46:38]  Yeah.
[00:46:39]  Yeah.
[00:46:40]  Kind of interesting there.
[00:46:41]  Where were we?
[00:46:42]  What were we talking about?
[00:46:43]  I lost track.
[00:46:43]  Okay, we're talking about Jack Parsons.
[00:46:45]  Yeah.
[00:46:46]  So we were talking about how when you scratch the surface of.
[00:46:50]  The UAP UFO topic, and you look at the people who are the most successful at, you know, moving the needle, you're going to find that their lives are imbued with this kind of mystical practice.
[00:47:04]  And what is it about these people that they are able to do these quote unquote downloads that they talk about, that you talk about in your book?
[00:47:14]  Like Tyler has this specific protocol that allows him to connect with nature and this network of nature.
[00:47:21]  Yes.
[00:47:21]  So a lot of the people.
[00:47:24]  Basically, they're fought, even if they don't know they are.
[00:47:28]  In my field, we also study monastic traditions.
[00:47:33]  Like, you know, there's a history of monastic traditions, people who are monks and nuns, and they tend to live in communities with each other and work on their spiritual growth, basically.
[00:47:45]  Do things like pray a lot, you know, study a lot.
[00:47:49]  And so, what I noticed about Tyler was that he lived a fairly monastic life, even though he would never know that or call it that.
[00:47:57]  But he had these.
[00:47:58]  These, what I called protocols.
[00:48:01]  They were physical and spiritual and mental protocols.
[00:48:05]  And what I noticed was that a lot of people who were doing the same kind of work followed these protocols.
[00:48:11]  And they enabled them to download information that they were interested in.
[00:48:18]  They could be useful things like technologies or, you know, other things like artistic things, projects, and things like that.
[00:48:28]  Finished American Cosmic and it was out there.
[00:48:31]  A lot of people with this ability reached out to me.
[00:48:35]  And I met a lot of very incredibly successful people who were doing this their whole lives, doing this similar thing their whole lives.
[00:48:43]  And so I interviewed them too, because I wanted to know, you know, what's going on?
[00:48:48]  What were they doing?
[00:48:49]  Why are they doing this?
[00:48:50]  And so what I figured out for the most part is that religions, different traditional religions, were the traditions that.
[00:48:58]  Held these technologies, and now I see these protocols as like body technologies or you know, technologies of connection, and they would enable people to be super creative and help culture in many ways.
[00:49:14]  Like Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the church, she was able to do this, she was a nun.
[00:49:20]  Um, and a lot of the tradition in the Catholic tradition, the saints, they were doing the same thing, they were, you know, they had these practices that enabled them, they believed, to connect to their God.
[00:49:32]  That's just because we didn't have a global society.
[00:49:35]  Now we have a global society, and we can actually do analysis of what's going on when people are connecting.
[00:49:41]  Harvard's done studies of people who meditate and how it changes physiologically your brain structure, right?
[00:49:48]  Yeah.
[00:49:49]  So, you know, so I think that this is, if I were to say the one thing I learned most from my work so far into UFOs, is I learned about these protocols, and I met a lot of people who do them.
[00:50:00]  And that's what I'm interested in right now, is that because.
[00:50:04]  It seems to me that the other stuff is a huge distraction because if we could just focus on this type of thing, it would, you know, where people, you know, they're able to resist being distracted by media and, you know, focus on what they actually are interested in.
[00:50:25]  You know, what are you really interested in?
[00:50:27]  Instead of being hung up on, you know, being distracted by stuff and consuming stuff and going on to the next thing because you're bored.
[00:50:35]  Right.
[00:50:36]  So these people are never bored.
[00:50:38]  There's this thing that creative people, specifically writers and painters, they talk about when they're trying to get into a creative flow process of doing their work is when they start working on something, whether it be a poem or a piece of artwork, they just start by picking up the brush and just splattering paint everywhere.
[00:51:01]  And then once time passes, they start to get into this flow.
[00:51:06]  And some people like to call it the muse, where this thing just sort of comes out of the ether.
[00:51:11]  And creativity and things just flow through you without thinking.
[00:51:15]  That's right.
[00:51:16]  That's it.
[00:51:17]  That's similar to what Tyler was talking about, where he has just thoughts that enter his brain that have nothing to do with memory or anything he's ever learned.
[00:51:26]  They're just ideas that come out of the ether.
[00:51:28]  Yeah.
[00:51:29]  Yeah.
[00:51:30]  So he's not the only one.
[00:51:32]  There's so many people like that.
[00:51:36]  So, yes.
[00:51:36]  So to me, that's the most interesting thing.
[00:51:42]  And a lot of people were very interested in it.
[00:51:44]  So, I gave a class on it, you know, because, and people from all over the world took the class, and a lot of people who were doing it because they want to know what am I doing?
[00:51:53]  Are other people doing this too?
[00:51:56]  But doesn't, so the idea is that our bodies are, at the cellular level, it's all electronic, right?
[00:52:05]  Like the electrons in our bodies that make up our atoms and our cells and our DNA and everything about us.
[00:52:12]  We're like 90% water.
[00:52:15]  And the idea behind this is that, I'm sorry if I'm messing this up, but that our bodies are like these radio transmitters.
[00:52:23]  And that, if we can treat our body the right way and eliminate all of these outside peripheral signals, that we can connect to some sort of network.
[00:52:35]  Yeah.
[00:52:37]  So I've talked to a lot of people about this because, you know, at some point my own training fails me and I need to like access people who are really into AI or into, you know, that are scientists.
[00:52:49]  And so I've talked to a lot of them and, There are two different kinds of theories.
[00:52:53]  One is that it's like a network, right?
[00:52:56]  And there was a Jesuit priest in the early 20th century who felt this network.
[00:53:01]  His name is Chardon, Tellur Chardon.
[00:53:05]  Right.
[00:53:05]  And so he described it as the newest fear.
[00:53:08]  And so he felt this network when he was on the front in World War I.
[00:53:14]  And, you know, there's a lot of tension going on there.
[00:53:18]  And he felt like this was going to connect with technology in the future.
[00:53:22]  And he felt like, You know, his work is interpreted in different ways, but I interpret his work as basically saying that there's almost like a new form of a human that's going to happen in the early 21st century.
[00:53:36]  And he sees it as connected to this network.
[00:53:39]  A new form of human.
[00:53:41]  Yeah.
[00:53:43]  And a lot, so I met a lot of people who believe this too.
[00:53:46]  So he's a very well known philosopher in communities of people who are creating AI.
[00:53:51]  And so the belief systems of people who are creating AI, I, Interviewed them too because you know, you get because really I was interviewing people who were in Silicon Valley believing in aliens and ET and reverse engineering things, um, you know, in for American Cosmic.
[00:54:09]  Well, the whole world has shifted, AI is something that wasn't a big deal.
[00:54:13]  I mean, it was a big deal in that time period, but it's now become super public.
[00:54:18]  And so, um, during the time period that American Cosmic was published, and then this book here that I just finished, um, I focused on people.
[00:54:28]  Who were in these communities of AI.
[00:54:30]  And a lot of them know about this idea of the organic network that's now somewhat infiltrated with the actual other internet and how your body's impacted by competing with the internet, right?
[00:54:46]  Kind of.
[00:54:47]  I mean, let's put it this way some of them said that they do detox from the internet in order to connect to the original, I guess, network in order to come back and code.
[00:55:03]  Which is so ironic.
[00:55:05]  But yeah.
[00:55:07]  There's a deeper meaning here when it comes to our evolution.
[00:55:12]  We have the choice to either develop technology as a tool or develop something that is going to make us sort of irrelevant.
[00:55:23]  Yeah.
[00:55:23]  Or trample us.
[00:55:24]  Yeah.
[00:55:25]  There's like a fork in the road.
[00:55:26]  Right.
[00:55:26]  A fork in the road.
[00:55:27]  That's a good way of putting it.
[00:55:28]  Chardon saw this.
[00:55:30]  It's one of his warnings, you know.
[00:55:34]  And.
[00:55:35]  So, the person who is included in the book is this person that we call Moongirl, right?
[00:55:42]  And so she's one of the major creators of AI back when, you know, 20 years ago.
[00:55:52]  And so she's now seeing the fruits of the things that she created, you know, come alive in a sense.
[00:55:59]  And so she's the one who explained a lot of this idea to me and that, you know, That we do have to have a good understanding that, you know, there's obviously a lot of talk of the danger right now of AI.
[00:56:20]  And so she's saying that there's a positive aspect that we can take right now and we can utilize this and it'll be helpful.
[00:56:31]  But it seems like she also believes that AI is going to be sentient.
[00:56:36]  What is the connection between.

=== Assessing Spiritual Experiences (04:51) ===

[00:56:38]  This way of tuning the human body and being able to experience some of these paranormal aspects, some of these paranormal experiences in connection with it.
[00:56:53]  It's pretty well known in Buddhist communities of meditators and also within Catholic culture that if you pray, I mean, we're talking about the monastic traditions.
[00:57:03]  If not, you know, not your everyday Catholic is not going to be praying and then seeing an entity or something like that, or they might, but generally, no.
[00:57:11]  So, if you're doing this kind of practice where you're becoming sensitive to what happens during meditative or prayer sessions, sometimes you'll see something that is like what would be called a UFO or an entity, and it might disturb you.
[00:57:32]  But that's why there are communities that help each other.
[00:57:36]  So, that's why monks and nuns live together to help each other through these spiritual practices.
[00:57:41]  So, they would say, I know that in specific Buddhist communities, they say that's just a distraction.
[00:57:46]  That's not your goal.
[00:57:47]  You know, so if you see these things in the Catholic monastic community, you would tell your spiritual director, and they would most likely say the same thing.
[00:57:59]  Don't focus on that.
[00:58:00]  You know.
[00:58:01]  Now, are there good and evils?
[00:58:06]  Like, are there good beings and evil beings that people report?
[00:58:11]  Yeah.
[00:58:12]  And what determines whether these people experience.
[00:58:16]  Good or evil?
[00:58:17]  Well, within the Catholic tradition, definitely they would call it good or evil.
[00:58:20]  Within the Buddhist tradition, they would probably have unhelpful and helpful, right?
[00:58:24]  They wouldn't like put a value judgment on it, in my opinion.
[00:58:27]  I am not a scholar of Buddhism.
[00:58:28]  So, just to be clear.
[00:58:29]  Okay.
[00:58:30]  But within the Catholic tradition, what would happen is if you started to have locutions, which you know, you hear things or you see things, you would go to your spiritual director and you would tell that person, okay, this is happening to me.
[00:58:42]  And you would work through it and there would be tests to find out if this was an evil thing or a good thing and whether we should pay attention to it.
[00:58:51]  It's definitely something that has always been around in Catholic culture and is still around.
[00:58:57]  So, say, let's take the example of sightings of the Virgin Mary.
[00:59:02]  Okay.
[00:59:02]  All right.
[00:59:03]  So, People see the Virgin Mary.
[00:59:05]  All right.
[00:59:06]  It's kind of an often, if you go online, you'll do maps of Virgin Mary sightings global.
[00:59:11]  There's a bank that's right down the street from here.
[00:59:13]  Years ago, there was the sprinklers went off and it stained the glass on the side of this glass building, which was a bank.
[00:59:21]  And it created the stain that looked just like the outline of the Virgin Mary.
[00:59:25]  And it was all over the news.
[00:59:26]  And a church ended up buying the building and making it now a church today.
[00:59:30]  Wow.
[00:59:30]  That's amazing.
[00:59:32]  A church bought a bank.
[00:59:33]  There would often be.
[00:59:35]  These stains on the windows from the sprinklers, right?
[00:59:37]  And they were all different kinds of shapes.
[00:59:38]  But this day specifically created this shape of a Virgin Mary and they never cleaned it off.
[00:59:43]  They, in fact, like did something where they like coated over it and made it permanent.
[00:59:46]  Wow.
[00:59:47]  And then a church ended up buying it.
[00:59:48]  Wow.
[00:59:49]  That's really neat.
[00:59:50]  Yeah, it's wild.
[00:59:51]  But it's like it goes back to the thing like believing is seeing.
[00:59:55]  Like if you believe something, you see it everywhere.
[00:59:57]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:58]  So, okay.
[00:59:59]  So say you see, say somebody sees the Virgin Mary and this person seems credible, right?
[01:00:05]  They don't even want to talk about it.
[01:00:07]  But they do see it.
[01:00:09]  And they go to their priest and they say, Look, I saw this.
[01:00:12]  Here it is.
[01:00:14]  Oh, yeah, I remember that.
[01:00:15]  It's really beautiful.
[01:00:16]  Yeah, it's like 10 minutes away from here.
[01:00:20]  Wow.
[01:00:23]  So there are committees at the Vatican that assess these sightings and assess whether or not they're from God or not from God.
[01:00:33]  And so these kinds of things get assessed.
[01:00:36]  And that's not in secular culture.
[01:00:37]  So if you see something and you're like, Whoa, I saw this, people are like, Okay, right.
[01:00:41]  But if you do see this in different religious traditions, there are committees set up to deal with that kind of thing.
[01:00:49]  Is this similar to you mentioned something in your book that there's a person, I can't remember the name of this person, but there's a person who determines who is a saint?
[01:00:59]  Yeah, there's a whole committee that does that.
[01:01:02]  And it's called there's a postulator.
[01:01:06]  Postulators, that's what it was.
[01:01:08]  Yeah, and I've met one at the Vatican who was also, I think he's still there.
[01:01:14]  Yeah.
[01:01:15]  He doesn't, he's not on the internet or email or anything.
[01:01:19]  Now, what is this spiritual aspect of the phenomenon?
[01:01:23]  What does it have to do specifically with, going back to Gary Nolan's work, brain structure?

=== Socrates And The Cave Allegory (15:39) ===

[01:01:30]  And he talks about specific brain structure and a specific part of the brain that is developed.
[01:01:35]  And I think it's like what?
[01:01:37]  It's like 1% of the population?
[01:01:40]  I don't know what percentage it is, but he was studying.
[01:01:45]  I don't know if Gary's.
[01:01:46]  Talking about it with respect to spirituality or religion, but he's definitely talking about it with respect to people who access this data that allows them to do downloading.
[01:02:01]  That's what I meant.
[01:02:02]  Yeah.
[01:02:02]  Yeah.
[01:02:03]  So these are like high functioning people who are downloading information that's really helpful, generally, technologies.
[01:02:12]  And it's the caudate pudiman, the part of the brain that he was looking at.
[01:02:17]  What is it called again?
[01:02:18]  It's called the caudate.
[01:02:20]  The caudate.
[01:02:20]  I think it's the caudate pudimen.
[01:02:22]  I think that's it.
[01:02:22]  Cudate pudimen.
[01:02:23]  Okay.
[01:02:24]  These protocols that Tyler specifically talks about is not something that should be practiced by everyday people to try to access this, or is this something that all people can try to do?
[01:02:39]  Oh, I think that, I mean, honestly, it's, I think all people should do the things that he was doing.
[01:02:46]  I mean, maybe not to that extent because they're pretty intense, but I mean, he's just talking about having, okay, let's put it this way.
[01:02:54]  In many traditions, your body is religious traditions, your body is considered a temple.
[01:02:59]  Okay, well, what is it a temple of?
[01:03:01]  It's going to be a temple of God, right?
[01:03:04]  So it's a temple that, so this idea has been around for a while.
[01:03:09]  We just forgot about it.
[01:03:10]  And so it's being, you know, I'm looking at it and saying, hey, you know, this has been around for a while and these people are doing it to great effect.
[01:03:19]  And it's basically making sure that you're healthy and you keep your body healthy.
[01:03:26]  You know, if it is the case that we're transmitting and receiving information, that you're keeping it, your body clear enough and healthy enough to do that.
[01:03:35]  So I think it's kind of like a human thing.
[01:03:37]  I think a lot of people can do it.
[01:03:39]  Is it simple stuff, like getting good sleep, drinking a lot of water?
[01:03:42]  It's totally simple stuff.
[01:03:43]  Taking your vitamins.
[01:03:43]  Yeah, it's simple stuff.
[01:03:45]  But when you look at the science behind it, you're like, oh, so that's the reason why.
[01:03:49]  So getting enough water, our bodies, so Moongirl explained this to me.
[01:03:54]  She said, our bodies are like 90%, no, not, I'm sorry, like 80% water, 78, 80% water.
[01:04:00]  And Water is like the universal conductor.
[01:04:04]  It's conducting electricity.
[01:04:06]  And a lot of things that are happening in our bodies are electrical.
[01:04:10]  So we're just, you know, making sure that the water is clear in order for these things to, you know, to, in order for us to be at our peak.
[01:04:22]  You see it also with athletes.
[01:04:24]  You know, I mean, you have to be at a certain point in order to get into the flow.
[01:04:28]  Right.
[01:04:29]  A musician has to know the stuff really, really well.
[01:04:33]  In order to get into the flow.
[01:04:34]  So it's basically living in a very healthy way.
[01:04:40]  So this brings me to the study.
[01:04:45]  There's a part in Plato's book where he talks about the cave.
[01:04:49]  I think it's called the cave of allegory.
[01:04:51]  Oh, oh, you're talking about the allegory of the cave?
[01:04:53]  The allegory of the cave, yeah.
[01:04:56]  Dyslexia.
[01:04:57]  No, no, it's okay.
[01:04:58]  It's in Plato's Republic.
[01:05:00]  Right, okay.
[01:05:00]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:05:01]  It's a really interesting.
[01:05:03]  It's like a template for our time.
[01:05:04]  Like a lot of movies make use of it.
[01:05:06]  The Matrix makes use of the Allegory of the Cave.
[01:05:08]  It's kind of like a template that what we see is not real and there's something behind it.
[01:05:15]  And he talks about it with respect.
[01:05:19]  It's a really interesting book, by the way Plato's Republic.
[01:05:23]  Here's a diagram of it.
[01:05:25]  Yeah.
[01:05:27]  So, okay.
[01:05:28]  So I'll tell you what's going on.
[01:05:30]  Okay.
[01:05:31]  So Plato's basically in the allegory, he's talking to.
[01:05:36]  I'm sorry, Socrates, because Plato's talking about Socrates, who is his teacher, and Socrates never wrote anything.
[01:05:42]  So Plato basically mimicked Socrates, tried to.
[01:05:47]  Writing was a new technology at the time, and Socrates didn't like it because he felt like it removed knowledge from the actual source of knowledge, which was the person.
[01:05:57]  Okay, so this is happening at the time period.
[01:06:01]  So Plato wants to provide people with an understanding of what his teacher Socrates said.
[01:06:07]  But he needs to use writing to do it.
[01:06:10]  So everything's in dialogue.
[01:06:12]  So Plato's writing all of this in dialogue form in order to kind of preserve something of what Socrates is saying.
[01:06:19]  So, Socrates, so this allegory of the cave, this occurs in Plato's Republic.
[01:06:25]  Plato's Republic asks this question can we have a just society?
[01:06:31]  Can we actually live together without killing each other?
[01:06:33]  This is the question, right?
[01:06:35]  Can we have a just society?
[01:06:37]  Okay, so that's the question.
[01:06:38]  And so each chapter is a back and forth about whether or not between Socrates and Plato's brother, Glaucon, can we actually have this just society?
[01:06:50]  And There are lots of different readings.
[01:06:54]  I am not a trained philosopher, although I took a lot of philosophy.
[01:06:57]  I have like the equivalent of a master's degree in it.
[01:07:00]  Oh, wow.
[01:07:01]  But so I know a lot of philosophers.
[01:07:05]  I've talked to philosophers, mostly James Madden at Benedictine College.
[01:07:09]  He and I have had a lot of conversations about the allegory.
[01:07:13]  And it appears that Socrates at the end of the Republic is kind of the answer is.
[01:07:22]  We can't really have a just republic because we've gone through all of these scenarios and simulations, and it looks pretty bad for people because politicians are really pretty, they shouldn't actually be politicians.
[01:07:35]  It's like the people who should be politicians are not politicians, and you have to trick them into being politicians.
[01:07:42]  That's the best politician, right?
[01:07:44]  And that's not going to happen.
[01:07:46]  So, in the end, he throws in the allegory of the cave, and you're like, what's this about?
[01:07:50]  So, he's basically saying that life is like this.
[01:07:54]  We're all in this cave, and if you look at this image here, you see these people tied up.
[01:07:59]  So, people have tied them up, and what's worse is that they've lit this fire in back of them and they're doing puppet shows.
[01:08:08]  And so, these people just see the shadows of what's happening on the cave wall and they think that's reality.
[01:08:16]  Okay, so that's the setup, that's what life is like.
[01:08:19]  And then somebody gets out and like goes outside the cave and sees, you know, something real.
[01:08:25]  They see reality out there.
[01:08:26]  They see, like, the real world.
[01:08:27]  They see the sun.
[01:08:29]  And this is true.
[01:08:32]  And they realize that they've been fooled their whole life and they don't see what's real.
[01:08:36]  So they go back into the cave and they tell the people that are tied up, there's reality out there.
[01:08:43]  But sadly, what happens is the people who are tied up think that they're crazy.
[01:08:46]  They say, You're crazy.
[01:08:48]  Your eyes are ruined, you know?
[01:08:50]  And Socrates even says, Maybe they'll, you know, they might even harm that person, you know, because they're so angry at them.
[01:08:57]  So he basically says, What do we need then?
[01:08:59]  You know, what kind of, what should we do about this situation?
[01:09:03]  And so he and Glaucon agree that the best way to deal with this is through basically a conversation about what is real and a way to help each other recognize, like, kind of a community, the very basis of a community that looks like a monastic community, where people basically say, Wow, what's out there is really crazy.
[01:09:24]  We can't believe it.
[01:09:25]  So let's kind of talk about it.
[01:09:27]  And And really form this, what a lot of philosophers believe is this epistemology of good.
[01:09:34]  You know, that we can, you know, that this is the ascent from the cave is when a person starts to attain like a mystical knowledge of what is good.
[01:09:44]  And so that's what he believes is going to help us in this kind of situation that we're in.
[01:09:51]  You can definitely see the parallels of the situation that we're in with the allegory of the cave.
[01:09:56]  Yeah.
[01:09:57]  It's kind of mind blowing.
[01:09:58]  I know, I know.
[01:10:00]  That's why a lot of people who are doing media are using Allegory of the Cave as kind of a template, you know, for our time period.
[01:10:09]  But I think it's actually just the way that has been.
[01:10:12]  By the way, I want to say that this is a Western thing.
[01:10:16]  I don't know if the allegory is going to be structurally important for certain indigenous communities, frankly.
[01:10:24]  When you look around, you're like, wow, they don't actually have this situation where you have government.
[01:10:31]  And Socrates was killed by his government.
[01:10:34]  Right.
[01:10:35]  It was a pretty dire situation.
[01:10:37]  It seems like right now we're in the cave, but it seems like the way to break it or to break the chains is through this philosophy.
[01:10:46]  And through us finding out, like finding and discovering that everything that we're looking for is within ourselves.
[01:10:58]  Yeah.
[01:10:59]  I think that I honestly do think that this is a template, that it's and it's structural for at least this type of culture.
[01:11:11]  And the way to remedy, maybe you can't fix it.
[01:11:16]  But you can remedy it for yourself.
[01:11:19]  And that's to do what Socrates suggests.
[01:11:22]  And so I think it's really important to do that.
[01:11:27]  Will this be a fix it for humans?
[01:11:30]  I don't know.
[01:11:31]  And is there a fix it for humans?
[01:11:33]  Maybe not.
[01:11:36]  But if there is, we have to look at these kinds of things.
[01:11:39]  So I find correlations to early Christianity too, because when Jesus was talking to his community, and by the way, this would be something that they would have known about because, you know, they.
[01:11:51]  We're talking about a very Greek informed Jewish community in the first century.
[01:11:57]  So there's a called Hellenization.
[01:11:59]  So they're very informed by Greek thinking.
[01:12:02]  And there's philosophical communities of math mystics, basically, who sometimes are vegetarian and they're practicing these protocols.
[01:12:11]  Socrates and his group practiced these protocols too.
[01:12:14]  A lot of them didn't start learning and utilizing math until they were 35 to 40 years old.
[01:12:21]  They were, you know, because, yeah.
[01:12:23]  So it's really interesting.
[01:12:24]  So, You know, when you start to learn about that time period, Jesus' time period, you start to understand that it was very sophisticated what they were talking about.
[01:12:32]  And Jesus was also, in a sense, being the Socrates of his time, basically saying to the people who would listen, he wasn't even talking to everybody.
[01:12:40]  He was saying, this is what it's like, you know, and he would basically help his community.
[01:12:46]  And so he was initiating.
[01:12:47]  He also never wrote anything like Socrates did.
[01:12:50]  I mean, didn't either.
[01:12:51]  So they were very similar in that sense that they never wrote anything.
[01:12:55]  So he was also.
[01:12:56]  You know, he was also asking, could there be justice?
[01:12:58]  And he said, yes, there can, but this is the way.
[01:13:01]  And it was a spiritual and mystical way, just like Socrates.
[01:13:05]  And my reading of Socrates is that he's proposing a spiritual way, a mystical way, even though, ironically, the reason he was killed was because he was supposed to be, Athens said that he was promoting atheism among the youth, which I think is really ironic.
[01:13:20]  Tyler described a hierarchy of beings.
[01:13:25]  How do you make sense of that?
[01:13:28]  Well, it's really interesting to me.
[01:13:29]  So, Tyler's information about the protocols I thought was so good and interesting and helpful that I asked him to guest speak in my classes.
[01:13:39]  Oh, really?
[01:13:39]  Yeah, prior to the publication of American Cosmic.
[01:13:42]  So he would guest speak in my classes, and my students loved him, by the way.
[01:13:46]  So it would be standing room only when he was around.
[01:13:49]  And students would come and pack into my classes.
[01:13:53]  And he would basically talk to them about their own lives and what they were interested in doing and that type of thing.
[01:14:02]  And during the time period, he was really open about his beliefs.
[01:14:05]  And part of what he used to say was that there was a hierarchy of beings.
[01:14:10]  And he placed God at the top.
[01:14:12]  He was Christian.
[01:14:13]  And then he placed angels below God.
[01:14:15]  And then he placed beings, like off planet beings.
[01:14:20]  He called them off planet beings.
[01:14:22]  And then he placed, and this is where it gets really weird to me factions in the intelligence community and then normal humans.
[01:14:30]  That was the hierarchy.
[01:14:32]  Okay.
[01:14:33]  Was Tyler religious before you guys, before you, like when you first met him, was he a very religious person?
[01:14:41]  He was religious in a pretty normal way.
[01:14:43]  Okay.
[01:14:44]  So he went to church maybe a couple times a year, non denominational Christian.
[01:14:50]  He was very, very spiritual, but his spirituality wasn't.
[01:14:56]  I mean, obviously, when he met me, I taught him a lot about what I knew.
[01:15:01]  And when we were at the Vatican, he experienced a pretty intense religious experience.
[01:15:07]  And so now he's very religious, like Catholic, goes to church, works, I think, stuff.
[01:15:13]  After his experience at the Vatican.
[01:15:14]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:15:15]  And that was nothing that I promoted or wanted to happen, by the way.
[01:15:18]  It just kind of happened on its own.
[01:15:20]  I was fascinated by it.
[01:15:22]  So, yeah.
[01:15:23]  So, no, he was not.
[01:15:25]  He was not super religious.
[01:15:27]  Okay.
[01:15:28]  So, God is at the top.
[01:15:30]  Mm hmm.
[01:15:30]  Mm hmm.
[01:15:31]  Angels are below that.
[01:15:32]  Yeah.
[01:15:32]  What, in his view, are angels?
[01:15:36]  Well, he changed his view when we went to the Vatican and we learned a lot more about the saints and what was happening with them and their interfaces with what looks like.
[01:15:47]  Similar to what people are saying when they have UFO experiences today.
[01:15:51]  And he started to understand it from a broader perspective.
[01:15:56]  And he thought perhaps that the things that he was studying had to do with angels.
[01:16:01]  And so he was willing to decide that maybe the category of angels and off planet intelligence were closer than he had thought before.
[01:16:12]  Maybe they were the same.
[01:16:14]  And so he revised that, but he kept everything else the same.
[01:16:18]  So he combined angels and extraterrestrials?
[01:16:21]  Yes.
[01:16:21]  Well, remember, he's calling them off planet beings.
[01:16:25]  He's not calling them extraterrestrials.
[01:16:27]  Okay.
[01:16:28]  Isn't that the same thing, though?
[01:16:30]  Not to his mind.
[01:16:32]  Because I think he's keeping an open mind as to what they are.
[01:16:36]  He believes in them and interfaces with them, but he's keeping an open mind.
[01:16:41]  So he did.
[01:16:42]  Is the difference between when he says off planet, does he mean like stellar?
[01:16:50]  Or is he talking like, are we talking multiverse, like different dimensions?
[01:16:55]  Yeah, so these are the questions that he had.
[01:16:58]  Okay.
[01:16:59]  So he didn't know.
[01:17:01]  That's why he left it open.
[01:17:02]  I mean, I think that he believed that they're in space and that we encounter them, you know, in space.

=== Purposeful Encounters In Space (04:01) ===

[01:17:09]  Oh, we encounter them in space.
[01:17:11]  And they come down, too, to our atmosphere.
[01:17:13]  So I think that he calls them off planet.
[01:17:16]  They're not terrestrial.
[01:17:19]  So he claimed that we see these things in space?
[01:17:22]  Um.
[01:17:25]  Is that something you can't talk about?
[01:17:26]  That's what he believes.
[01:17:27]  Let's just say that.
[01:17:28]  That's what he believes.
[01:17:29]  That's what he believed at the time.
[01:17:31]  What is his opinion of the objects that the Navy pilots are seeing, like the Tic Tac objects and the other, the Go Fast and the gimbals?
[01:17:43]  Okay.
[01:17:44]  It was only the Tic Tac videos that I was able to get him to look at and ask what he thought about those and not the other ones.
[01:17:53]  So he looked at those and he said, The video quality is horrible.
[01:17:59]  And then he said, That's pretty similar.
[01:18:01]  That's what he said.
[01:18:02]  That's all he said to me.
[01:18:04]  He said, That's pretty similar.
[01:18:06]  Yeah.
[01:18:07]  But he said, the video is really terrible.
[01:18:10]  And he thought that that was probably purposeful.
[01:18:12]  I got the feeling he thought that was purposeful.
[01:18:16]  And it was very soon after that that we stopped talking about, we stopped working together.
[01:18:23]  Really?
[01:18:24]  Why did you guys stop working together?
[01:18:26]  Because his work was changing already and things were going really fast.
[01:18:34]  And my book was, you know, said a lot.
[01:18:38]  And I think that it was not in his best interest to keep communicating.
[01:18:43]  Did anybody seem to have the opinion that those modern videos are sort of like technology that has been developed by us?
[01:18:55]  Let's see.
[01:18:58]  I mean, yeah, there are some people who believe, who basically told me, this is after the book got published, who said that we have drone technology from a long time ago, way before people even knew that drones existed.
[01:19:11]  And so, yes.
[01:19:14]  So, it got a lot of very, you know, of course, at this time, I recognized the complete disinformation that was coming my way because I'm a professor writing about this topic.
[01:19:25]  And so, I'm like a magnet for anybody who wants to spin their story in public.
[01:19:31]  And so, I had to be really conscientious about who I listened to and took seriously.
[01:19:39]  And so, you know, but I did have people come and very, You know, emphatically tell me, yes, this is like, this is not what you think.
[01:19:48]  It's our technology.
[01:19:49]  And we've had it for a long time, that.
[01:19:52]  And then gave me evidence to show me.
[01:19:54]  But at this point, I decided I wasn't going to be doing that.
[01:19:57]  They gave you evidence to show you?
[01:19:58]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:19:59]  And of course, they're going to want it out there, you know?
[01:20:01]  So I'm like, I'm not doing this game.
[01:20:03]  Like, I felt like I did that before.
[01:20:04]  I'm not going to do it again.
[01:20:05]  Because at this point, I understood that I was going to be a target and was a target of people feeding me information they wanted to place in the public.
[01:20:14]  And you have, as a person, how do you discern that?
[01:20:17]  Well, right.
[01:20:17]  It's really difficult to discern that.
[01:20:20]  I used some of my friends who I trusted, like Jacques Valet, to kind of get a read on people.
[01:20:25]  Not like I'd ask him specifically.
[01:20:27]  I just say, Do you want to meet this person?
[01:20:29]  And if he said no, or if he didn't comment, I didn't know, okay, this is not, because he's got a, I think he's pretty good at discerning, you know?
[01:20:38]  And yeah, so I just chose to only write and publish stuff that I felt was responsible, I guess, you know, and could be.
[01:20:49]  I could say, yeah, that, you know, put it out there and say, yes.
[01:20:54]  It wasn't anything that I was going to put out there that I had a question about, you know.
[01:21:00]  So I was doing straight what's called ethnography, which is basically talking to people about their experiences and interfaces with this phenomena.

=== Responsible Publication Choices (03:04) ===

[01:21:11]  What for you, specifically with the new book, was there anything in there that was like really something that, Like, blew your worldview out of the water or like really shocked you?
[01:21:27]  Okay, that's a really good question.
[01:21:29]  I think the two things, the two chapters that are really impactful to me are side by side.
[01:21:39]  And the first one is with Moongirl.
[01:21:41]  And her worldview was really interesting to me because it's the new world.
[01:21:48]  You know, she augurs in this new world, her work, the way she lives.
[01:21:54]  And Speaks about it really.
[01:21:58]  She's articulate and eloquent about it.
[01:22:01]  And it's a, for a lot of people, it's frightening because it's basically us living with a technology that we've created that has huge potential to shift everything.
[01:22:15]  And this is what attracted me to the work of Martin Heidegger, the philosopher, in that he predicted this time period and said, only a God can say what's now thing type.
[01:22:26]  Right.
[01:22:26]  Yeah.
[01:22:27]  So, you know, I was like, wow, we're here.
[01:22:29]  And she's the one who knows most about it.
[01:22:32]  So, you know, This time period of, you know, intelligent technology, either something that we merge with or that something independent on its own is fascinating and something that I said, you know, is unprecedented for humans.
[01:22:53]  And so, yes, that.
[01:22:55]  And then directly after that, I know a person, actually, a colleague of mine.
[01:23:02]  I've known her for many years, 20 years.
[01:23:05]  And this is all.
[01:23:07]  Pre UFO and post UFO.
[01:23:09]  And when she was a woman in my department, I'm in a male dominated field.
[01:23:15]  So we spent a lot of time together.
[01:23:18]  She's a philosopher and she worked, or she was being recruited by the NSA as well.
[01:23:24]  And her father worked in what she called the secret space program.
[01:23:30]  And this was all when I was doing Catholic history.
[01:23:33]  So I always thought that was strange, but I never actually asked her about it.
[01:23:37]  And, but then when I started to study this, I was like, I need to ask her about this because it's strange.
[01:23:44]  You know, you hear all this crazy stuff about this secret space program and it's this and that.
[01:23:48]  And it's, you know, it's absolutely insane.
[01:23:50]  So I did an interview with her and I recognized that she was actually the child of a person who's in one of these programs.
[01:24:00]  And I met so many people in these programs, like Tyler, right?
[01:24:04]  And, you know, and these people have children.
[01:24:08]  Those children do not live normal lives.
[01:24:10]  And because their parents don't live normal lives because of being part of these programs.

=== Secrecy And Information Wars (07:30) ===

[01:24:16]  And so that was an insight.
[01:24:17]  I met a lot of these people.
[01:24:19]  And so there's like almost like an effect, you know, that lasts on these generations of people, their children.
[01:24:30]  And so I really wanted to talk about that, but I couldn't talk about it directly with some of the people who are now in the program.
[01:24:36]  So her father's been dead for many, many, many years.
[01:24:40]  But still, people around her.
[01:24:42]  Told her not to share the information because there was so much intimidation not to share it.
[01:24:47]  I mean, we're talking about he's been dead for more than 30 years, you know?
[01:24:52]  And so, but she talked about it.
[01:24:55]  It's so unsettling to think that there's this deep layer of fear and secrecy embedded deep in our government and in the world that you don't see or normal people don't even think about.
[01:25:08]  The deeper you go into this topic, it's just like the more of that you see.
[01:25:12]  Yeah.
[01:25:13]  I've started.
[01:25:15]  Having that idea that you have, like, you know, there shouldn't be this, and basically being kind of really affrighted of it, not wanting to be a part of it.
[01:25:22]  And then being around people so much in it, a lot of them were saying, it's worse.
[01:25:28]  Listen, it's better the devil you know.
[01:25:31]  The devil you know.
[01:25:32]  Yeah.
[01:25:33]  And so that kind of changed.
[01:25:34]  And then having them tell me exactly why it's better the devil you know.
[01:25:39]  And so that shifted my perspective.
[01:25:42]  And now I just, you know, maybe there's some wisdom.
[01:25:46]  And so I back off from it.
[01:25:48]  And so I just focus on the religion aspects of this.
[01:25:53]  I don't want to go into this.
[01:25:56]  You know, the secrecy of that chapter is the one in the book that I just kind of talk about it.
[01:26:03]  It's a safe way to talk about it.
[01:26:05]  We just have to say, yeah, it's there, that exists.
[01:26:09]  And some people believe that it exists for good reason.
[01:26:13]  Do you think that there are people that are like this girl's father who passed away, scientists that are deep within the shadows of?
[01:26:24]  Governments who are very much aware of this spiritual mystic thing that Tyler's being a part of, yeah, I do.
[01:26:35]  And what and do you think they're trying to purposely hide it or weaponize it?
[01:26:39]  I mean, because like all the history of the evolution of technology is competitive capitalism mixed with science for the purpose of war, right?
[01:26:52]  Like we're apes with nuclear weapons, right?
[01:26:54]  And and we just want to compete to have.
[01:26:57]  To be higher on the food chain.
[01:26:59]  And that's what's sort of inspired a lot of the most incredibly innovative technology throughout history.
[01:27:04]  So, do you think that that is why they're keeping this a secret?
[01:27:13]  Okay.
[01:27:14]  So, yeah.
[01:27:15]  So I would, I loved what you just said, right?
[01:27:18]  The rundown of kind of the state of affairs and technology.
[01:27:22]  But I would change one thing, and that's the people who create it are often not the people who utilize and operationalize it.
[01:27:30]  Right.
[01:27:30]  Okay.
[01:27:31]  So the people who create it, they probably keep this stuff, you know, grab the patents or, you know, grab the people themselves and use that.
[01:27:38]  But those people are not out to do wage war.
[01:27:41]  Generally, they have like their, hey, this is helpful for humanity in this case.
[01:27:45]  Right.
[01:27:46]  Okay.
[01:27:46]  So, right.
[01:27:47]  But you take any scientist or doctorate or whatever, whoever they are, researcher, and you give them millions of dollars, say, here, run free.
[01:27:55]  Like, do what you, you know what I mean?
[01:27:57]  We want you to figure out everything you can about this.
[01:28:00]  Like, that.
[01:28:01]  That essentially is what it is, right?
[01:28:03]  It's these people with agendas giving money to scientists and smart people.
[01:28:07]  Yeah.
[01:28:08]  So that happens.
[01:28:09]  Okay.
[01:28:10]  All right.
[01:28:11]  So that's one way to look at it.
[01:28:14]  Another way to look at it.
[01:28:15]  So again, after American Cosmic was published, lots of very wealthy people who do want to operationalize technology got a hold of me.
[01:28:25]  Still happens.
[01:28:26]  Okay.
[01:28:26]  And they'd like to talk to me and maybe connect them with Tyler or people like that, right?
[01:28:32]  But I always feel like they're looking for this.
[01:28:36]  You know, this idea of the reverse engineering, the data.
[01:28:41]  And what I found is that the data actually exists in the people.
[01:28:44]  So, you know, the data is passed down through an oral tradition.
[01:28:50]  It's not kept in, you know, a bunch of computers.
[01:28:53]  You know, you can't access the data, then put an AI on it and work, you know, work with it that way.
[01:28:57]  It's actually a transmission from person to person.
[01:29:02]  So, and also it's got the spiritual kind of mystical guise to it that a lot of them aren't.
[01:29:11]  Adequately prepared to understand or even see.
[01:29:14]  So I always felt like I was going to give them a disappointing answer.
[01:29:18]  You know, can you do this for me?
[01:29:19]  You know, kind of thing.
[01:29:20]  And I'm thinking, even if I did do it for you, you will not be able to access this because you don't understand what it is and how it gets passed down.
[01:29:31]  So a lot of the UFO communities, the people who work in them, are passing it down in orally transmitted tradition.
[01:29:39]  So it's something that.
[01:29:41]  And there's lots of reasons for that.
[01:29:44]  And part of it is just to keep it super secret because it's not, you know, you can't, I can't take my phone and get it from you, you know, like with a program or an app, right?
[01:29:55]  It's actually, it's in your body.
[01:29:58]  And it seems like something that even if somebody wanted to, it couldn't be used as a weapon.
[01:30:04]  It's not something somebody can weaponize.
[01:30:05]  Yeah.
[01:30:05]  And that's kind of cool.
[01:30:07]  Because once you discover it, it's like a whole other thing, like a whole other universe inside you that you can connect to.
[01:30:15]  Yeah.
[01:30:16]  But then why would you want to keep a secret?
[01:30:18]  Why would good people want to keep a secret?
[01:30:20]  Okay.
[01:30:21]  So I think that we have to understand that we're living in a world of kind of like war, right?
[01:30:25]  Like there's a lot of war going on that is not actually the war we see in Ukraine, right?
[01:30:30]  It's not that kind of war.
[01:30:31]  It's more of an informational war, but it has real effects.
[01:30:35]  It has effects on people's mental health, it has effects on what they believe, what they'll buy, what they won't buy, whether they're vaccinated or not vaccinated.
[01:30:43]  You know, this is actually in real time happening.
[01:30:45]  Yeah.
[01:30:46]  And so, um, So, we have to understand that those interests, you know, our security is a lot based on that, on this war that's going on.
[01:30:59]  So, how so?
[01:31:01]  Our security?
[01:31:02]  Well, it's really easy to infiltrate the boundaries of technology, like through different access points.
[01:31:09]  You know, when you open your computer, you're already a vulnerable target.
[01:31:13]  Whereas, if you didn't have that, you wouldn't be as vulnerable and war would be fought in the way in which.
[01:31:19]  Oh, okay.
[01:31:19]  You're saying like a mind war.
[01:31:21]  Yeah, yeah, virtual warfare.
[01:31:23]  So, what you're describing is like human beings, we are almost already cyborgs because we're always connected to our phones.
[01:31:32]  We spend most of our time staring at iPhone screens or whatever.
[01:31:35]  And it's easy to be that kind of stuff.
[01:31:37]  That media is very easily manipulated by somebody who has an agenda.
[01:31:43]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:31:44]  And by the way, this is nothing new.

=== Virtual Warfare And Ego (11:05) ===

[01:31:46]  Right, right.
[01:31:46]  I learned about this when I was a freshman in university.
[01:31:51]  Thought I was going to be a doctor.
[01:31:52]  So I was taking classes in nutrition and I was at a great agricultural school, University of California at Davis.
[01:31:59]  And all my nutrition classes, I thought I was going to learn about how to make people healthy and, you know, things like that.
[01:32:05]  But I didn't actually.
[01:32:06]  I learned about how we can make square tomatoes through genetic engineering that sell.
[01:32:12]  And yeah, they didn't have any nutritional content and how Edward Bernays, you know, shifted the four food groups and things like that.
[01:32:20]  I mean, my mind was like, whoa, okay, so this is what it's about.
[01:32:24]  And so, um, Yeah, so this is just the world we live in.
[01:32:28]  Edward Bernays is a wild character.
[01:32:31]  Yeah.
[01:32:32]  I watched a documentary on him by Adam Curtis.
[01:32:34]  Have you seen that one?
[01:32:35]  Yes.
[01:32:36]  Where he, I guess, he's the guy who brought consumerism to the United States, right?
[01:32:40]  Like, he's the one who developed it and brought the subconscious mind into marketing.
[01:32:44]  Yes, yes.
[01:32:45]  One of the great, one of my favorite parts about that documentary is how he consulted with, I think it was either an agency or it was with the company itself.
[01:32:54]  I think it was Betty Crocker.
[01:32:56]  And there was a cake mix they were trying to sell more of.
[01:32:58]  People weren't buying it.
[01:32:59]  And they found they did a focus group where I guess they studied housewives.
[01:33:03]  Yeah.
[01:33:03]  And the housewives felt guilty making this cake because they didn't do enough work.
[01:33:08]  So they added an egg.
[01:33:10]  Yeah.
[01:33:10]  Well, let's just put on the instructions, crack an egg.
[01:33:13]  Yeah.
[01:33:13]  And now they felt like they were doing the work.
[01:33:15]  They didn't have that guilt anymore.
[01:33:16]  And it started flying off the shelves.
[01:33:18]  Yeah.
[01:33:18]  So Bernays is kind of, you know, all over our culture, made huge inroads into everything.
[01:33:26]  So everything you have to think about from that perspective, like what we eat, you know.
[01:33:31]  Everything, the brand.
[01:33:33]  Yes, the brand.
[01:33:34]  And then I was just talking about this on a podcast a couple days ago.
[01:33:39]  The food pyramid.
[01:33:41]  Yes, it's like upside down.
[01:33:43]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:33:45]  And there was like a bunch of lobbying that went into the original food pyramid from like a bunch of food products or food brands.
[01:33:53]  Yeah, so I learned this, but you know, they weren't teaching it to me like, hey, this is kind of terrible and people need to eat better.
[01:33:58]  They were teaching it to me like, okay, this is the best way to do it.
[01:34:03]  And that's why, by the way, I started to take philosophy classes.
[01:34:06]  What do you mean by that?
[01:34:08]  Okay, this is the best way to do it.
[01:34:09]  Yeah, so they weren't, so there was no like self consciousness about.
[01:34:14]  Do we really want to make a square tomato?
[01:34:17]  So, what if it sells better and gets into a box and we're able to ship it anywhere in the world?
[01:34:23]  It's not really that good for you, right?
[01:34:26]  So, there was no question about the health of the people that were going to eat the tomato.
[01:34:31]  It was, is this the most efficient way to make money off of a tomato?
[01:34:35]  That's what I was learning about.
[01:34:37]  And there was no self consciousness at that time.
[01:34:39]  I mean, I'm hoping that it's changed since I was a freshman.
[01:34:43]  Right.
[01:34:44]  There's this.
[01:34:45]  Great quote in this show called Westworld.
[01:34:47]  I don't know if you're familiar with the Westworld on HBO, but it's Anthony Hopkins.
[01:34:52]  He's talking to one of the robots that he made and he's talking about human consciousness is like peacock feathers.
[01:35:01]  And he goes, Look at some of the greatest pieces, the greatest creations that humans have ever made.
[01:35:07]  He said, Look at the Eiffel Tower.
[01:35:09]  Look at Mozart.
[01:35:10]  Look at Rembrandt.
[01:35:13]  All of it is just an elaborate mating call, peacock feathers.
[01:35:18]  And it makes me, it like that really made me think like, even going to people like Elon Musk, right, who talks about this grandiose idea of I want to, I want to make our species interplanetary.
[01:35:30]  I want to send, you know, make, do all these great things, eliminate carbon emissions and all this stuff.
[01:35:38]  It's a, it's a terrific story.
[01:35:40]  But I always question like, is it really all just about becoming richer and making another, making billions of dollars?
[01:35:48]  Is it making more and more money?
[01:35:49]  Like, I always question, like, these crazy billionaires.
[01:35:51]  Like, if I was Elon Musk or if I was Jeff Bezos, like, what is the motivation really?
[01:35:58]  Like, when you really drill down deep into the core.
[01:36:02]  And I always wonder if it's just a big, elaborate display of peacock feathers.
[01:36:07]  I would suggest no.
[01:36:08]  I used to, I have, of course, thought about this, but a lot of it, yes, is.
[01:36:14]  But a lot of the great things are just done because of pure love and enjoyment.
[01:36:19]  You know, a lot of the, Like, think of the quote unquote stereotypical cliche starving artists.
[01:36:25]  Well, a lot of artists were doing their work and they were starving, but they were doing it anyway because that's where they felt most alive.
[01:36:32]  Absolutely, philosophers are, you know, the philosophical work.
[01:36:35]  This is not a mating call.
[01:36:36]  Right.
[01:36:37]  They're basically like doing this to survive, to live.
[01:36:40]  You know, a lot of them were on the edge of suicide because they saw the cave and they were like, is this it?
[01:36:46]  You know, I don't want to do this.
[01:36:47]  I don't want to play that game.
[01:36:48]  I don't want to play the game of the big peacock feather.
[01:36:51]  I'm not going to do that.
[01:36:52]  I'm not going to engage.
[01:36:54]  Yeah, touring is a great example of that.
[01:36:56]  A lot of people throughout history, you're right.
[01:36:58]  Yeah, so no.
[01:36:59]  So I can tell you, no, it's not all about the big P.
[01:37:02]  It's just the ones that we know about because they're so, just like Plato says, they're so out there and we see them and they're so in our faces.
[01:37:13]  And Socrates said this in Phaedrus, in this book, Phaedrus, that Plato wrote.
[01:37:18]  He said, once writing happens, he was criticizing the technology of writing.
[01:37:23]  He said, once writing happens, People aren't going to know stuff, and it's going to be really horrible to be around them because they're going to be completely all about themselves.
[01:37:30]  I'm paraphrasing, all about themselves, and they're going to be insufferable company instead of actually people that you want to talk to because they know some stuff and you have a good conversation with them.
[01:37:40]  They're going to be all about their ego, basically, is what he was saying.
[01:37:44]  So he was connecting writing to ego?
[01:37:48]  Yes.
[01:37:49]  Yeah.
[01:37:50]  So, like saying that there's, is it the idea that people could basically read a lot of books and gain knowledge through reading about it?
[01:38:01]  But not actually having it?
[01:38:03]  Not actually having it.
[01:38:04]  Yeah.
[01:38:04]  And it's really interesting, too.
[01:38:05]  I happen to think this is really an interesting point.
[01:38:07]  I do, too.
[01:38:08]  I think about this all the time, actually.
[01:38:09]  Oh, really?
[01:38:10]  Yeah, I do.
[01:38:11]  The knowledge by, there's actually a term I read recently where it's knowledge by, I've read about it.
[01:38:16]  Knowledge by association or by acquaintance versus, I think it was versus knowledge by association because everything we see in media, I think, you know, every single YouTube channel that's a guy who's a talking head who talks about politics, it's just, all they're doing is reading the news or reading Twitter and reporting on it.
[01:38:39]  They don't experience stuff, they read stuff.
[01:38:43]  Yeah.
[01:38:43]  Or they listen to stuff and then they report it back.
[01:38:46]  Yeah.
[01:38:47]  It's even on like the news, like the television news, those people aren't experiencing much.
[01:38:52]  Maybe there's situations where guys like go overseas into a war zone and experience being in the middle of a firefight and bullets flying everywhere and like meet people.
[01:39:02]  There's definitely that.
[01:39:03]  But I think most of it on TV is, especially when it comes to like the talking heads, all of it is what you're talking about.
[01:39:09]  Yeah.
[01:39:09]  Secondary knowledge.
[01:39:11]  Yeah.
[01:39:11]  They don't.
[01:39:12]  So, yeah.
[01:39:12]  So Socrates identified this as a, actually, when I look back at this and I reread him, I see it as a turning point in the, Western culture, in the sense that he actually referenced knowledge that people would get from their actual environment.
[01:39:28]  It almost sounds like, I can't prove this, but it almost sounds like he's talking about a download experience within the context of the environment where, you know, you have indigenous cultures where people have so much knowledge about their environment, right?
[01:39:45]  They can hear things like if you and I went out into the forest, like the rainforest, like in Brazil or something like that, and they would be able to hear.
[01:39:53]  The different sounds in the forest and know exactly what was going to happen, like either rain coming or whether a dangerous animal is going to be there or the state of the forest.
[01:40:05]  You and I wouldn't hear that at all.
[01:40:06]  We would go in there and we'd just hear what we would consider to be forest noises.
[01:40:10]  We would be able to.
[01:40:11]  So we don't have any intimate experience of our environments, right?
[01:40:16]  And so Socrates was actually telling Plato about this and talking about how there was a once when people learned from the trees and they had this knowledge.
[01:40:27]  But Plato made, I mean, Socrates made a joke and he said, But you guys, you're so young and knowledgeable, you wouldn't know about this.
[01:40:35]  So he's basically decrying this loss of this intimate knowledge and that technology was actually going to foster it even worse.
[01:40:44]  And it was going to create a type of person that was egotistical and think they know everything.
[01:40:50]  And they were going to be horrible to be around.
[01:40:51]  And I thought that was really funny.
[01:40:53]  But I agree with you.
[01:40:55]  I see that, I even see that in my own field, like people talking about a topic.
[01:40:59]  Like in my field, there's a push to publish.
[01:41:02]  We have to publish a lot.
[01:41:03]  And I just can't do that.
[01:41:04]  I have to actually be, I have to do field research.
[01:41:08]  I have to go out to communities of people who are doing this kind of thing in order to get information.
[01:41:13]  Like, how else are you going to get that information other than being around them?
[01:41:17]  But a lot of people don't do that.
[01:41:18]  They actually just read a bunch of books about it and they go on Twitter or wherever and they get that information.
[01:41:23]  And then they write a book like every two years.
[01:41:26]  And I just can't understand how first they could think that that's responsible, but, you know, put it out there for people to read because.
[01:41:34]  You don't actually know about what these people think or what they're doing.
[01:41:37]  That's why the data that's happening in the UFO community, you know, are you actually talking to these people and listening to what they say?
[01:41:45]  So, yeah, so there's this whole, you know, difference in knowledge.
[01:41:50]  Yeah.
[01:41:50]  And some of the people that sort of like take the ball and run with it are sometimes very charismatic or very economically minded, rather, or know how to make money and know how to capitalize on certain things and sort of run with it.
[01:42:07]  And some of the people that are actually like experiencing the stuff or doing like the real work.
[01:42:11]  And the real research, sometimes they may not have the skill in communicating it, but the people who have the knowledge maybe have a better way of connecting with people and communicating a message.
[01:42:23]  So sometimes I guess it can work hand in hand.
[01:42:26]  Yeah.
[01:42:26]  Yeah.
[01:42:27]  Like a lot of the people that I found that interface with this phenomenon, they don't have big platforms.
[01:42:35]  And even if they did, I don't think a lot of people would be able to understand what they're saying because they're so, really, a lot of them are so intelligent.
[01:42:43]  And out there, you know, and they're talking sometimes in mathematical terms.
[01:42:48]  Who's going to get that?
[01:42:49]  Who's going to understand it in popular culture?

=== Revelations From A History Of Satan (15:20) ===

[01:42:51]  Right.
[01:42:52]  All right.
[01:42:53]  Let's talk about Jacques Valet.
[01:42:56]  So there's a chapter in your book where you mention what I think was one of the most fascinating parts that stuck out to me the most was you go to his apartment in Northern California.
[01:43:08]  Can you describe what happened there?
[01:43:13]  Yeah.
[01:43:15]  So, okay, so I know Jacques and we've, you know, worked together and are colleagues basically for a long time.
[01:43:28]  And I, this one time, I went to his apartment and we were going to talk about the topic of the research that we were, you know, his research, my research.
[01:43:43]  And so he has a beautiful apartment.
[01:43:48]  And he has an amazing view of San Francisco.
[01:43:53]  And so we were in his apartment, and he showed me his library, which is really amazing.
[01:44:03]  And he had a lot of historical things from the history of ufology in the United States and things from European Catholic history, like it looked like.
[01:44:18]  Extent, you know, copies of books about angels and things like that.
[01:44:25]  So it was amazing and things that belonged to Alan Hynek and things like that.
[01:44:31]  And Alan Hynek was the guy who started Project Blue Book?
[01:44:35]  Yeah, he was one of the people in the head of Project Blue Book, like the main scientist.
[01:44:39]  And Jacques worked with him?
[01:44:40]  Yeah, Jacques worked with Alan Hynek.
[01:44:42]  Yeah.
[01:44:44]  And they were both part of the reason for that chapter was I wanted to talk about the elements of the mystical elements that each. were interested in, which include, they were not affiliated with any Rosicrucian temples, but they were interested in Rosicrucianism.
[01:45:02]  What is Rosicrucianism?
[01:45:04]  Okay, so Rosicrucianism is an esoteric tradition that looks like it comes from about the early modern time period, but its practitioners, a lot of its practitioners say that it goes back to Egyptian times.
[01:45:17]  But it looks like a, I mean, depending on which histories of it you read, you'll get a different Perspective, but it looks to be started around the early modern time period among scientists who had to be really careful.
[01:45:33]  In fact, the Invisible College comes from that early modern time period of Francis Bacon basically doing work as a scientist.
[01:45:42]  But at that time period, science was risky because you could be killed for doing it, you know.
[01:45:47]  So they called themselves the Invisible College.
[01:45:50]  And so Hynek repurposed that term for his group of people that were studying UFOs.
[01:45:56]  And you had to be careful of, you know, because if you're a scientist and you came out as a person who studied UFOs, you were immediately discredited.
[01:46:03]  Hynek was one of the first.
[01:46:04]  Guys, to like build this bridge between science and spirituality, is that sort of like the backbone of what this is about?
[01:46:11]  I don't know, I don't think he was one of the first guys, but he was he's definitely a well known figure who's not known to have done that, and so there's a focus I put in the book on his melding of the two.
[01:46:25]  And you were shocked, I think, to see all of the books that he had on angels that were.
[01:46:35]  In his library?
[01:46:37]  I was.
[01:46:38]  Would you ask him about that?
[01:46:40]  What did he say about that?
[01:46:42]  So, in the library, he showed me a lot of books about, you know, like I said, the history of ufology, like, you know, historical stuff from Project Blue Book.
[01:46:51]  Right.
[01:46:51]  That's the kind of stuff that I would expect to see in Jacques Filet's library.
[01:46:54]  Yeah, it's really interesting.
[01:46:55]  And so, but most of the library was dedicated to these very old books of angels.
[01:47:05]  And so he took out a couple and he showed them to me.
[01:47:08]  And he had a whole.
[01:47:10]  Row of angels and a whole row of like fallen angels type thing.
[01:47:14]  And he made some jokes about it, you know, well, if you have one, you have to have the other kind of thing.
[01:47:18]  And so, yeah, I guess the emphasis, I mean, I know that he has like a huge historical knowledge, obviously, with Passport to Magonia.
[01:47:28]  I mean, that's a book about the whole history of, you know, kind of the Western history.
[01:47:32]  It almost reads like a religious studies book about the phenomena in history.
[01:47:38]  And so, of course, I knew that he did have this knowledge.
[01:47:41]  I just didn't know to.
[01:47:43]  The extent to which he studied it.
[01:47:46]  So, having these books, especially purchasing them and having them, you know, it's one thing to go to archives, like kind of like I do, and read them.
[01:47:55]  But to get them and to acquire them, to keep them in your own home, these are old books that require a certain, you know, they could disintegrate.
[01:48:04]  The papers can disintegrate.
[01:48:06]  So, you have to have a climate controlled environment.
[01:48:10]  They're kind of difficult to keep.
[01:48:12]  So, he had a huge library of these books.
[01:48:15]  So, yes, so it just reconfirmed for me that the focus of that chapter should be on the spiritual elements in the history and his focus on this esoteric tradition, as well as Heineck's focus on this esoteric tradition.
[01:48:30]  It reconfirmed for me that that was appropriate.
[01:48:34]  And he gave you a book at the end of your meeting with him that day.
[01:48:39]  What was this book?
[01:48:41]  Okay, so.
[01:48:43]  A book on the devil?
[01:48:44]  Well, it was a history of Satan.
[01:48:46]  Okay.
[01:48:47]  And it was.
[01:48:48]  It was done by these Carmelite nuns.
[01:48:52]  And so he gave me the book and he said, You should try to acquire this book.
[01:48:55]  It's really good.
[01:48:57]  And I looked at it and then the paging on it was really interesting.
[01:49:01]  It was the last page was 666.
[01:49:04]  So he laughed and said, They had a sense of humor, you know?
[01:49:08]  And so, yeah, that was at the time I was really shocked by that and thought it was what, you know?
[01:49:16]  So it took me a while to actually talk to him about it because I thought, How do you ask somebody about this, right?
[01:49:22]  So I did ask him, and he said that, you know, and he's right.
[01:49:30]  So, the way we see it, he was basically suggesting it because of the ways in which, you know, how the ways in which the UFO are made to look kind of a certain way, but when you look into it, they look different.
[01:49:44]  And the same way with religious traditions, like Teresa of Avila's experience with the little angel.
[01:49:52]  If you look at pictures and paintings from that and the statue of that, it looks very different than the primary source material.
[01:49:59]  Okay.
[01:50:00]  Like the description that she actually gave when she wrote it.
[01:50:03]  Yeah, it looks completely different.
[01:50:05]  Than what you call it, telephone game.
[01:50:08]  Right.
[01:50:08]  Yeah.
[01:50:08]  So there's telephone game in texts, too.
[01:50:11]  Right.
[01:50:11]  And in representations of spiritual experiences.
[01:50:16]  So basically, he was saying that if you look at the history of this person, you know, well, not person, with this being, that it's going to look completely different.
[01:50:25]  And the people that did the best biography are these Carmelite nuns who had access to all of the primary source material.
[01:50:34]  Did you read the book?
[01:50:35]  So I did look for the book.
[01:50:37]  And I didn't do a hard search for it because I was so busy.
[01:50:42]  I haven't been able to, but I do want to acquire the book, absolutely.
[01:50:44]  So, no, I have not read it.
[01:50:46]  But, you know, his work is basically to look at these texts, just like my work is, to look at the primary sources and to create his own understanding of it instead of looking at what people say about these primary sources.
[01:50:58]  So, that's the work he was trying to do with that book and why he gave it to me.
[01:51:03]  I think he also gave it to me because I'm not sure.
[01:51:05]  He's funny, he's got a good sense of humor.
[01:51:08]  He may have been trying to.
[01:51:09]  To kind of shock me.
[01:51:10]  I don't know.
[01:51:11]  But it was pretty funny at the time.
[01:51:13]  So I'm sure you've done a lot of.
[01:51:16]  I'm just interested in this because I'm interested in the devil personally.
[01:51:20]  Okay.
[01:51:20]  And one of the famous quotes, I wrote it down here.
[01:51:24]  One of the old sayings that I love is the devil has always been the church's best friend because he kept him in business.
[01:51:32]  You've heard that, I'm sure.
[01:51:32]  Yes.
[01:51:33]  And I had a guy on here recently who was teaching me all about the devil.
[01:51:36]  He did a little documentary on the history of.
[01:51:40]  Lucifer, and he basically said that Lucifer was never real.
[01:51:45]  Well, I mean, that's like saying God has never been real, right?
[01:51:48]  So we can't actually prove the existence of the beings that people believe in, okay?
[01:51:53]  There's no microscope.
[01:51:55]  Okay, this being exists.
[01:51:57]  Right.
[01:51:58]  Which is kind of an interesting critique of religion because there's a lot of things we can't actually prove the existence of.
[01:52:04]  Like when we tried to prove the existence of atoms, you know, they kind of go around, electrons move in different directions, and, you know, so.
[01:52:13]  Scientists even have a hard time proving what they believe to be like real kinds of things.
[01:52:18]  Okay.
[01:52:19]  So, all right.
[01:52:20]  So, as a person who studies religion, when you start to look at the ways in which either Satan and there is a named Satan in the Bible, which is the Hebrew Bible, Christian Old Testament, and New Testament, right?
[01:52:40]  So, and Lucifer.
[01:52:44]  So you look at these, you see that the Bible's created, it's basically a bunch of different books put together, and they're written by different people over many, many years, hundreds of years.
[01:52:56]  Okay.
[01:52:57]  Okay.
[01:52:57]  So the depictions of like the Satan in the book of Job, for example, looks to be like, you know, he's kind of like a friend of God, right?
[01:53:08]  So if you look at that depiction of Satan, and then you look at the depiction of Satan in other texts, In the Bible, they look to be terrible or something completely different than that.
[01:53:18]  So, there's no, it doesn't look like there's like a cohesive person or entity that's Satan.
[01:53:26]  Now, if you look at the extra texts that go into the formation of, say, Christianity or, you know, different, like, if you, well, let's just take Christianity.
[01:53:39]  That's what I'm most informed in.
[01:53:43]  You'll see that there are other texts that talk about this being.
[01:53:47]  And, you know, and then you have people that have experiences of this being.
[01:53:52]  And or of evil, and they call it Satan.
[01:53:55]  So I'm not, I haven't listened to that podcast that you did with that person.
[01:53:59]  But in terms of the unreality of it, I would say that if you're looking at a cohesive person, you know, or a cohesive entity called Satan, it's not cohesive within the Bible.
[01:54:15]  You're not going to see that.
[01:54:16]  But if you look at it within the various traditions that discuss this person or assume it, and you know, In various denominations of Christianity, Satan exists or doesn't exist.
[01:54:29]  So, you know, there are some denominations that don't talk about Satan, even certain factions of one denomination that will talk about Satan or not talk about Satan.
[01:54:39]  So, yeah, that would be my answer.
[01:54:44]  I think James Fox's creature in Virginia could have been Satan.
[01:54:48]  Yeah, so when you, yeah, exactly.
[01:54:50]  That's my point is that you have descriptions of weird things like that.
[01:54:55]  And then people ascribe it to Satan.
[01:54:56]  They say, this must be Satan or this must be a demon or something like that.
[01:55:00]  And you still have that within Catholic cultures.
[01:55:02]  If you have a UFO sighting and there happens to be the smell of sulfur and, you know, these beings that look like this, they're going to say the same thing because they still believe in that.
[01:55:11]  That's still their culture.
[01:55:13]  What did Nietzsche mean when he said God is dead?
[01:55:17]  And you talked about before, like, you weren't a fan of Nietzsche until, like, there was this weird thing you talk about synchronicities a lot in your first book.
[01:55:25]  Yeah.
[01:55:26]  And how it was.
[01:55:29]  A synchronicity in itself, the fact that when you picked up a book by Nietzsche.
[01:55:33]  There were, okay, so synchronicity, when you do field research in religious studies, you find that no matter what religion or denomination, synchronicity for people, meaningful coincidences, it's like the engine of spiritual belief.
[01:55:48]  So people in the Catholic, when I was doing my book on purgatory, a lot of Catholics were telling me their synchronicities and them saying, so it was a sign from God, you know?
[01:55:57]  And I noticed this in the UFO community too.
[01:55:59]  People had like a lot of synchronicities.
[01:56:01]  I did too.
[01:56:02]  And people, Ascribed meaning to them.
[01:56:05]  Like, you know, I must be on the right path because this is happening and things like that.
[01:56:09]  And of course, when these things happen, it's pretty interesting.
[01:56:12]  It's like, wow, this is so interesting, right?
[01:56:15]  And I've had those experiences and have them all the time.
[01:56:17]  And of course, I step back though, and I don't want to ascribe any kind of overarching theory or meaning to them because they could just be by chance, right?
[01:56:29]  And so, Nietzsche, and so I've been thinking about this for a very long time.
[01:56:34]  And it wasn't the first time I picked up a book by Nietzsche.
[01:56:38]  Because a lot of my friends wanted me to like Nietzsche.
[01:56:41]  They would try, they gave me books and they'd say, read this, read this.
[01:56:45]  You're going to love Nietzsche.
[01:56:46]  And I would start to read him and I hated his philosophy.
[01:56:49]  I was like, ah, this guy's.
[01:56:51]  What about his philosophy did you hate?
[01:56:53]  He seemed really arrogant and he was very sexist and racist.
[01:56:58]  And I really didn't want to fill my head with that kind of philosophy.
[01:57:03]  So I didn't think he was really that interesting.
[01:57:07]  And so I never, it never stuck.
[01:57:08]  Right.
[01:57:09]  So one day, it was on New Year's Eve, and I was not out there partying with everyone, but I could hear everyone partying.
[01:57:20]  And I decided to try to get some sleep.
[01:57:22]  So I went to bed.
[01:57:24]  And at midnight, everybody was partying so much.
[01:57:28]  I heard everything.
[01:57:29]  I woke up and I was like, oh, what am I going to do now?
[01:57:32]  And I saw this book by Nietzsche by the bed.
[01:57:34]  So I picked it up and I opened it up randomly.
[01:57:37]  And I opened it up, by the way, it was The Gay Science.
[01:57:40]  And I opened it up to.
[01:57:42]  I think it was aphorism 273, but it was a book, book two, which was Saint January, Sanctus Januarius.
[01:57:49]  It was about the saint.
[01:57:51]  And I was like, okay, it's like the January.
[01:57:56]  It was January 1st.
[01:57:58]  So I thought that's a weird kind of coincidence.
[01:58:00]  And I opened it up and it was basically he said, today's New Year's.
[01:58:05]  And I was like, it is New Year's, you know?
[01:58:07]  And I thought it was really interesting.
[01:58:09]  I was hooked and I was like, okay, what is he going to say about New Year's?

=== Nietzsche And Random Aphorisms (14:07) ===

[01:58:12]  He said, today he was declaring his philosophy of Amor Fatih.
[01:58:16]  Which is the love of one's fate.
[01:58:18]  So, when you're disgusted by life and life gives you all these terrible things, you know, just look away.
[01:58:24]  Like, don't try to fight it.
[01:58:26]  Just look away from it into something different and more beautiful.
[01:58:29]  And so, that was his, like, that was some kind of revelation to him.
[01:58:33]  He was imparting that.
[01:58:34]  And I was like, oh, that's really cool.
[01:58:35]  I like that.
[01:58:36]  And I turned the page and basically I thought, what a cool synchronicity, right?
[01:58:41]  I really kind of, the feel of the synchronicity was really intense.
[01:58:45]  The next aphorism, the very next page was basically, An argument against ascribing meaning to synchronicities.
[01:58:55]  It was beautiful.
[01:58:56]  It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever read.
[01:58:58]  I was like, okay, like I was just about to ascribe significance to this synchronicity.
[01:59:03]  And now I feel like he's telling me not to.
[01:59:06]  Like he literally is telling me this.
[01:59:08]  And so I put the book, I put it down and I was like, that was weird.
[01:59:12]  And then I picked it up again and I've been hooked on Nietzsche ever since.
[01:59:15]  I love, I love, yeah, it was really, really interesting.
[01:59:18]  And it also made me really think about synchronicities, like what's going on with these things.
[01:59:23]  And so, um, I'm generally inclined to agree with him that, you know, he was really poetic in the way he said, don't, you know, when it seems like everything has this personal meaning for you, when something, even a terrible thing happens, but it happens for the very best, don't think that it's any kind of God that's leading you on your way.
[01:59:43]  It's the most beautiful, it's the epitome of being alive when you recognize this as the beauty of chance.
[01:59:51]  And I was like, wow, okay, I'm hooked on that interpretation of synchronicities.
[01:59:56]  And so I try to, when synchronicities happen a lot, and they do, I think it's just something that is actually, just like Plato's cave is structural for Western society.
[02:00:07]  I think that it's structural for being human.
[02:00:10]  Like we, people from indigenous cultures also talk about this as well.
[02:00:13]  And they say that rational science doesn't actually understand that when you're really in tune with your environment, like these things are, they just happen and they're part of being human.
[02:00:24]  And it's part of what makes being human.
[02:00:27]  Fun and interesting.
[02:00:29]  But you know, scientists are doing this too.
[02:00:31]  Scientists are having some pretty intense synchronicities.
[02:00:35]  And they feel like, you know, oh, this is it.
[02:00:39]  You know, this is going to help me with this technology or this equation or something like that.
[02:00:44]  So I think it might have to do with learning or being open to being taught by your environment, life, you know, something like that.
[02:00:55]  I mean, I'm still, to tell you the truth, I'm still trying to figure it out.
[02:00:58]  Yeah.
[02:00:59]  Do you think that this whole thing that's going on right now with technology and like ChatGPT and UFOs, do you think that this is becoming like a new religion for Western society?
[02:01:16]  No, I don't think it's becoming a new religion.
[02:01:18]  I think that people are, there's a religiosity.
[02:01:25]  Okay, so a religion is something pretty discreet, has a beginning and an end.
[02:01:29]  There's usually a person associated with it, like, you know, a figurehead.
[02:01:33]  And it's an ongoing kind of formation that has dogmas associated with it.
[02:01:40]  So, what I see right now with technology and especially AI and its association, you know, there's a what I would call a religiosity.
[02:01:49]  And this is what I identify as the UFO thing, too.
[02:01:53]  Because there are religions that focus and emphasize UFOs.
[02:01:59]  Okay.
[02:01:59]  So, like the Nation of Islam, it's found, you know, it's.
[02:02:04]  There's a belief in that religion that there's a mothership, and that in the end times, the mothership's going to show up again.
[02:02:11]  And that these little UFOs that people see, they're part of the mothership.
[02:02:16]  They're little.
[02:02:17]  Really?
[02:02:18]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:02:18]  This is the nation of Islam.
[02:02:20]  So this is a distinct UFO religion.
[02:02:22]  But what I see right now is this pervasive belief in UFOs kind of on the rise, given credence by the U.S. government, basically saying, you know, with the Pentagon report and a lot of the media associated with it.
[02:02:36]  And this is kind of this, you know, a lot of times we can't prove that religious things exist.
[02:02:44]  We base it on testimony.
[02:02:45]  And that's very similar to what happens with UFOs, you know, we have testimony and things like that.
[02:02:50]  So I see this kind of as an effect of technology, the decentralization of religion.
[02:02:58]  That's what I think is happening.
[02:03:00]  What do you think of the whole Bob Lazar story?
[02:03:03]  Okay.
[02:03:04]  So I don't have, I can't say.
[02:03:07]  I believe it or disbelieve it.
[02:03:09]  There's so much about it out there.
[02:03:12]  Obviously, he himself has been discredited by a lot of people.
[02:03:18]  I know people in the Invisible College who think it's not true, but I also know people who are even more like associated with some programs that interface with the phenomena and do work in that regard, are super scientific.
[02:03:36]  You mean people that do like back engineering stuff?
[02:03:38]  Well, they say they do.
[02:03:40]  I can't say whether they do or not.
[02:03:41]  I don't know, but they claim to.
[02:03:43]  Okay.
[02:03:44]  And they believe him and they say that Allah.
[02:03:46]  They believe him.
[02:03:47]  Yeah.
[02:03:48]  And they say that they believe that they've said that he's.
[02:03:54]  Now, this is like stuff I can't confirm, though, Danny.
[02:03:56]  So, you know, okay.
[02:03:57]  So, but they say.
[02:04:00]  So it's really confusing to me, too, just like for everyone else.
[02:04:03]  But one piece of information that I think isn't out there is that what they said was that.
[02:04:11]  If this information is going to come out, it's not going to come out through someone like with a PhD telling you this.
[02:04:17]  It's like it's going to come out through these people who can be completely discredited if needed to be.
[02:04:25]  The thing about him is like if he is this incredible whistleblower, like blowing the whistle on one of the government's most secret programs in the history of the government, right?
[02:04:36]  Like, how is he still getting like government contracts with this company and doing all this crazy work?
[02:04:44]  Because if you think of like some of the Whistleblowers of our modern time.
[02:04:48]  They're not still working with the government and living freely in the United States.
[02:04:52]  I know.
[02:04:53]  That's one of the perplexing things to me.
[02:04:56]  And for me to have people on this side who are so invested in the UFO thing for years and years and years, like their whole lives, and scientists adamantly against him, and then people on this side who have the same credentials, the same investment of time adamantly for him.
[02:05:15]  I mean, it makes it crazy for me.
[02:05:17]  Yeah, it's so polarizing.
[02:05:19]  Yeah.
[02:05:19]  And why hasn't he actually done like a real debate, you know, like with a scientist or with, I mean, he's done the public facing stuff.
[02:05:26]  Yeah, I don't think you could keep up with a scientist.
[02:05:29]  I mean, Excuse me, Bob Lazar, for saying that.
[02:05:33]  You don't think he can keep up with them?
[02:05:34]  No, no.
[02:05:35]  I mean, they're going to be asking him specific kinds of questions, you know, and I don't think he's able to.
[02:05:39]  Or maybe he's just, you know, there are clips of him saying he wish he never came out to talk about it.
[02:05:45]  So maybe he's just sick of all the media attention.
[02:05:48]  Why would he not want to?
[02:05:49]  Why wouldn't he be able to keep up with some of the scientists?
[02:05:51]  Like, if he was one of them, like, he seemed like one of the most, like, one of the smartest guys ever.
[02:05:56]  And he went to this secret, super secret place with all these other geniuses.
[02:06:00]  He was kind of a genius.
[02:06:03]  Yeah.
[02:06:03]  I think because a lot of people who are, okay, so let's take Tyler.
[02:06:08]  Tyler graduated from college, but barely.
[02:06:12]  Really?
[02:06:13]  Yeah, but has like more than 45 patents.
[02:06:17]  So a lot of these people who are geniuses, they're very specifically geniuses and they're downloading, but they don't have the infrastructure in their heads from years and years at MIT or something like that.
[02:06:29]  They're like, I don't know what you'd call them, like local geniuses.
[02:06:32]  They're geniuses in this one specific thing.
[02:06:34]  Right.
[02:06:35]  What was he specifically good at?
[02:06:37]  Okay, so he basically created the basis for a lot of biotechnologies that were used in different kinds of things.
[02:06:47]  And he created companies that were sold on NASDAQ for upwards of like $100 million and stuff like that.
[02:06:53]  And this was all done like privately without being involved in like any.
[02:06:56]  Were these like big government contracts or were these just.
[02:06:59]  No, he created these things.
[02:07:00]  He created the patents for them and some of them he worked with.
[02:07:06]  He flew his first big contract.
[02:07:10]  Thing that he created that was a biotechnology was an experiment that he flew on one of the space shuttles because it had to be done in like a zero gravity environment in space and it was successful.
[02:07:21]  But that was actually taken from him by the government.
[02:07:24]  And so he was mad about that.
[02:07:26]  So he quit the space program for a while and he went privately and did a lot of this stuff on his own.
[02:07:32]  So yeah, so then he worked with biotechnology companies to create these companies and then he was recruited back into the space program.
[02:07:42]  Oh, wow.
[02:07:42]  Did he ever go into space?
[02:07:44]  Almost.
[02:07:45]  Almost?
[02:07:46]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:07:46]  He was like 60,000, or I don't know.
[02:07:49]  It was like really high up, right?
[02:07:50]  Because he would go up there in order to look.
[02:07:53]  Well, I don't know exactly what he was doing.
[02:07:55]  I shouldn't really talk about it because I really don't know.
[02:07:58]  But no, he was a pilot, but he never went into space.
[02:08:01]  But he was the person who would help astronauts with stuff and mission controller and stuff like that.
[02:08:09]  And there was also a study by one of the women you interviewed based out of London who actually.
[02:08:16]  I found it was wild that the astronauts, the farther they got out into space, the more their brain changed or the more their moral code changed.
[02:08:27]  Is that what it was?
[02:08:28]  Yeah.
[02:08:29]  Dr. Ia Whiteley, she's at University College London and she's a space psychologist, which I think she created that position because.
[02:08:39]  Space psychologist.
[02:08:40]  Yeah.
[02:08:41]  So she helps people in extreme environments and space obviously is an extreme environment.
[02:08:46]  And she's a pilot, like an award winning, like.
[02:08:50]  She jumps out of airplanes and, you know, things like that.
[02:08:52]  She's a pretty intense person.
[02:08:53]  But yeah, so she knows the psychology of astronauts and of people, of pilots, and she's made flying safer for all of us, by the way.
[02:09:03]  She's pretty amazing.
[02:09:04]  Yeah, so the first two chapters of that book talk about her work.
[02:09:09]  And so, yeah, so the further pilots get out into space, the more, first of all, they can have a panic that they're not aware of.
[02:09:20]  And she's able to identify the panic through their voice, through using technology.
[02:09:24]  She can identify, like, Just the smallest change in their voice that shows that they're just about to have a panic because the further you get away from the earth, the more panicked you get, and the more there's a case for being totally irrational.
[02:09:38]  And since these pieces of equipment that they're in are billions of dollars, it would cost a lot of money to have someone freaking out out there.
[02:09:46]  And so, yeah, so I have some examples of astronauts when they're out there having these kinds of experiences of kind of creating their own rules and things like that in order to just because they're so disoriented from being in a place.
[02:10:01]  I think that just from being in space, honestly.
[02:10:05]  I'm not a lot of people have been in space, like now a couple hundred people.
[02:10:09]  So, are they able to simulate that on Earth?
[02:10:12]  They're trying to, yeah, they're creating simulations, and she works with that kind of thing, that effort to prepare them for what's going to happen when they're in space.
[02:10:21]  Okay.
[02:10:21]  Yeah.
[02:10:22]  And she's also working with a group for UAP stuff in order for people to report because there's a culture of shame regarding reporting stuff like this.
[02:10:34]  And so, she helped.
[02:10:35]  Pilots report anomalous information that made safety that made flying safer for everyone.
[02:10:43]  Um, so she's working on this with UAP right now.
[02:10:46]  Was Edgar Mitchell one of the people that first described this psychological effect of going deep into space and like seeing Earth as like this one little thing and seeing Earth as like this, yeah, he had separate beings disassociated from Earth?
[02:10:59]  Well, he wasn't the only one, but he was one of them who actually did something about it because it changed him so much.
[02:11:05]  But the idea that astronauts, when they go out and what they see, And then the earth.
[02:11:11]  Obviously, William Shatner just had this experience with Jeff Bezos's.
[02:11:16]  You know, he went off into space.
[02:11:18]  Right.
[02:11:18]  It was pretty horrifying for him.
[02:11:21]  And he cried.
[02:11:23]  So, you know, a lot of people think how great it would be.
[02:11:25]  You know, let's go out into space.
[02:11:27]  But then when you do get out there, it's a pretty intense experience.
[02:11:31]  Either, you know, sometimes it's good, but a lot of times it's traumatizing in certain respects.
[02:11:39]  It's a funny thing to think about.
[02:11:42]  The fact that these people change so much, like the deeper they get or the farther they get from Earth.
[02:11:48]  And it makes me think about how different are the morals of another species or another sort of being.
[02:11:57]  Yeah, you know, you think about that.
[02:11:58]  So remember some of the old novels about people stranded on islands, like desert islands, and how they form their own moral code and society.
[02:12:10]  Lord of the Flies.
[02:12:11]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:12:12]  So, in a sense, what Dr. Wiley's doing is she's looking at Lord of the Flies in space.
[02:12:17]  Oh, wow.
[02:12:18]  Yeah.

=== Indigenous Morals And Species (08:49) ===

[02:12:19]  That's fascinating.
[02:12:21]  Yeah.
[02:12:21]  Have you ever heard the stories of some of those uncontacted tribes?
[02:12:26]  My friend Paul Rosely, who I was telling you about, who wrote that Mother of God book in the Amazon, there's some uncontacted tribes in the Amazon too.
[02:12:32]  And whenever they come across other human beings, all they try to do is kill them.
[02:12:38]  They know they're humans, but they're like an evil presence to them, which is bizarre.
[02:12:44]  Well, I guess it's kind of true in the sense that if they're dying from the diseases that are brought, it's a bad thing.
[02:12:51]  But it's just like, it just blows my mind to think that there's still uncontacted tribes that are on this earth.
[02:12:58]  Another thing I wanted to ask you are you familiar with John Marco Allegro?
[02:13:04]  It sounds very familiar.
[02:13:07]  He was a linguist and he deciphered a bunch of like the ancient texts in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
[02:13:15]  And he spent like 20 years of his life going over the Dead Sea Scrolls and sort of like deciphering the language.
[02:13:21]  I would actually know this person.
[02:13:23]  Oh, yes.
[02:13:24]  Okay.
[02:13:24]  The sacred mushroom.
[02:13:26]  Yeah.
[02:13:26]  Yeah.
[02:13:27]  That's when that is a, I know about that.
[02:13:29]  Yeah.
[02:13:29]  So that's a.
[02:13:31]  Where did God come from?
[02:13:34]  What do Bible stories really tell us?
[02:13:37]  Who or what was Jesus Christ?
[02:13:39]  This book challenges everything we think we know about the.
[02:13:43]  Can you zoom in a little bit more?
[02:13:45]  About the nature of religion, the ancient fertility cult rites and symbols, the sacred mushroom as the emblem and embodiment of divinity.
[02:13:56]  The secret meaning of biblical myths, the language of religion that links us to our ancestors, the sacred mushroom in the cross, sets out John Allegro's quest through a family tree of languages to find the truth about where Christianity came from.
[02:14:13]  So, you've never heard of this guy, but you've heard of that idea, I'm sure.
[02:14:17]  No, I know about this book.
[02:14:19]  Yeah.
[02:14:19]  Oh, okay.
[02:14:19]  Yeah, and I know about this idea.
[02:14:20]  What is your thoughts on that?
[02:14:21]  I'm fascinated to hear what your thoughts are on that.
[02:14:23]  Okay.
[02:14:24]  So, it is the truth that.
[02:14:27]  A lot of religions incorporate, you know, either mushrooms or peyote or some type of, you know, plant medicine into their rituals.
[02:14:39]  But if you look at Christianity and how it developed, like the first and second centuries, you don't actually, I mean, if you're going to see some of those rituals and rites, they're going to be imported from the Hellenistic denominations of Christianity.
[02:14:55]  You don't actually see Jesus doing this, you know, he's not, he's actually part.
[02:15:01]  Mostly, he looks like he's part of a group of Christians that are affiliated with John the Baptist, who are against Rome and doing fasts and mystical practices.
[02:15:17]  So it depends on which version.
[02:15:19]  I mean, Christianity has different branches that branch off of it.
[02:15:25]  So I'm not discounting that for certain branches, but you're not going to see it in the Jesus movement.
[02:15:32]  Christianity.
[02:15:33]  Okay.
[02:15:34]  I don't believe it, at least.
[02:15:37]  There's the other book by Brian Marescu.
[02:15:40]  Brian Marescu.
[02:15:41]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:15:42]  The Immortality Key.
[02:15:42]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:15:43]  And so, you know, he does a good job of looking at these kinds of elements as well.
[02:15:50]  There are a lot of religions that incorporate plants into plant medicine, especially ayahuasca.
[02:16:01]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:16:02]  And that's just kind of.
[02:16:04]  How it is in normative rituals are meant to shift your consciousness.
[02:16:10]  So, yeah, this is nothing that's surprising to people who study religion.
[02:16:15]  I guess it would be surprising to a lot of people who practice religion in the normal way, you know, and kind of go to church and do this kind of thing.
[02:16:22]  They're not thinking about imbibing any kind of entheogen, you know, and like, you know, having these experiences.
[02:16:33]  But, yeah, yeah.
[02:16:36]  I think that's accurate.
[02:16:37]  It seems like there's a lot of stories that could have a close connection to psychedelic experiences, right?
[02:16:44]  Like the burning bush or even Ezekiel's wheel.
[02:16:48]  There's a lot of things people ascribe to hallucinations or psychedelic experiences, but it sounds like that could also be similar to what you're talking about with Tyler and this spiritual network.
[02:17:01]  I think so.
[02:17:02]  So, with Ezekiel's wheel, that's called the Merkabah tradition.
[02:17:06]  It's a whole historical, mystical lineage that goes to ancient Judaism and goes through, some would say, even Christianity.
[02:17:17]  And it's this idea that, you know, what Was going on with Ezekiel, where he was having experiences with these angelic beings that were often terrifying, but really fascinating and would impart this, you know, transmit this intense Gnostic wisdom to him.
[02:17:35]  And that this was the Merkabah tradition.
[02:17:37]  And, you know, some would say John the Baptist was doing that, and then Jesus was doing that.
[02:17:42]  And then even the Apostle Paul had his own experiences with this.
[02:17:47]  So these are experiences that I'm very interested in, but I don't affiliate them with.
[02:17:52]  Psilocybin or anything like that.
[02:17:54]  I think that they're actually, if they're actually having these experiences and they're not taking hallucinogens, they're interacting with whatever it is that Teresa of Avila interacted with or, you know.
[02:18:10]  Teresa of Avila, I'm jumping around a little bit right now, but it's all connected.
[02:18:16]  Teresa talks about like by location or there's a connection with her and New Mexico.
[02:18:24]  Okay, that's a, A Spanish nun, also.
[02:18:27]  Oh, so that's someone different.
[02:18:28]  Yeah, in the next century.
[02:18:30]  Okay.
[02:18:30]  And she's having.
[02:18:32]  So you'll know about her actually in the southern United States if you go there.
[02:18:36]  There are actually churches dedicated to her because there's the belief that she was bilocating to the New World near New Mexico and, you know, in the Southwest.
[02:18:51]  And she's called the Lady in Blue.
[02:18:53]  So if you Google the Lady in Blue, you'll get all kinds of stuff about her.
[02:18:57]  And so.
[02:18:58]  She was basically believed that she was catechizing, which was basically teaching the gospel to indigenous Americans in the Southwest.
[02:19:10]  And when some of the Spanish missionaries and people who were basically coming to colonize this part of the United States, of what was then for Spain, the New World, for indigenous people was their place, it was where they lived.
[02:19:29]  When they would come, the Some of the missionaries were bringing Spanish Catholicism, and the native people knew it already.
[02:19:39]  And they said, How did you learn about this?
[02:19:41]  And they said, Through this lady in blue.
[02:19:43]  Wow.
[02:19:44]  Yeah.
[02:19:44]  And so, and then when those same missionaries went back to Spain, they heard about her.
[02:19:50]  And so they asked if they could meet her.
[02:19:52]  And she was a cloistered nun.
[02:19:54]  And she described her experiences of coming here, and she described the foliage and the people that she met, and that type of thing.
[02:20:02]  So, what was going on?
[02:20:04]  How was that possible?
[02:20:06]  Well, Yeah.
[02:20:08]  So, okay.
[02:20:08]  So there's a lot of like, you know, there's a lot written about it.
[02:20:12]  And I don't know.
[02:20:16]  But I do know that she wrote one of her first books was a cosmology.
[02:20:20]  And then some people like you can reduce this to just fake, right?
[02:20:27]  That just didn't happen the way they said it happened.
[02:20:30]  But I've talked to people who are indigenous Americans who live in that area and believe absolutely in her.
[02:20:39]  So it's a thriving belief.
[02:20:41]  I'm not going to discount it.
[02:20:43]  Right.
[02:20:44]  And, you know, going back to these crazy experiences that some people ascribe to like hallucinations or psychedelics, like ayahuasca or psilocybin, it seems like it's a blurry line between what is that, like dancing elves or whatever it may be, and what is an actual like UFO, like what we're seeing today.

=== Transcending Dimensions With Earth Language (13:22) ===

[02:21:08]  Yeah.
[02:21:08]  So, what I think about that actually, I think that most likely, Pete, they're going to a real place, that there's this real.
[02:21:16]  Place and it's perhaps I can't, I'm not going to prove this.
[02:21:21]  It's interdimensional, it's another dimension.
[02:21:24]  And so, people who are taking these drugs in order to access this place, they're going to that place.
[02:21:32]  And people who are doing the protocols are going there too.
[02:21:35]  They're just doing it in a different way.
[02:21:36]  Do you think it's the same place?
[02:21:37]  I kind of think that.
[02:21:38]  Really?
[02:21:39]  Yeah.
[02:21:40]  What makes you think it's the same place?
[02:21:42]  This is totally like non professor talk.
[02:21:44]  This is fine.
[02:21:45]  This is what I think.
[02:21:46]  Okay.
[02:21:46]  So, yeah.
[02:21:47]  So, I've met too many people that have.
[02:21:50]  That have reported similar things and almost identical things.
[02:21:55]  Really?
[02:21:55]  Yeah.
[02:21:56]  I mean, it's just after time, you're like, okay, well.
[02:21:58]  And then there are the people that are doing the DMT experiments, you know?
[02:22:02]  Yeah.
[02:22:02]  So I think, you know, I don't know.
[02:22:04]  I mean, I think that it's really interesting, but.
[02:22:06]  They report like little elves or like they report geometrical patterns and shapes.
[02:22:12]  And a lot of them, they do it, they take this stuff and they experience the same exact thing.
[02:22:17]  Yeah, that's right.
[02:22:19]  I was able to.
[02:22:20]  I don't know if you know who Alex Gray is.
[02:22:23]  Oh, yeah.
[02:22:24]  Yeah, okay.
[02:22:25]  So I was at a really small conference with him and his wife, Allison, and they were explaining what their process of, you know, doing their art.
[02:22:35]  And they would, you know, they would take ayahuasca and wouldn't talk to each other, but they would have the exact same vision and then would paint it.
[02:22:45]  Really?
[02:22:46]  Yeah.
[02:22:46]  So that was when I first started to really consider, wow, what's going on here?
[02:22:51]  You know?
[02:22:53]  So, is there a way that these things can come in our reality?
[02:22:57]  And is that what, like, is that, do you think there's a, like, comparing these DMT experiences and the stuff that Alex Gray and his wife were experiencing and painting, do you see any, like, telltale signs that connect this to some of this biblical stuff?
[02:23:14]  Okay.
[02:23:14]  Well, okay, the biblical stuff.
[02:23:16]  So, listen, the biblical stuff is filled with people who are having kinds of experiences that are incredible, right?
[02:23:22]  So, you know, you have people, you know, and they're, they're, Interpreting it through a religious lens because that was the framework that they had.
[02:23:32]  What I see today is when people are talking about these experiences, what makes me kind of pay attention a lot is that Tchaikovsky talked about this, like Konstantin Tchaikovsky, he's the father of the Russian space program.
[02:23:48]  And he was basically calling out the artists and calling out the poets and the mathematicians and saying, You know, we're the ones who can access this information and bring it down and create things in our reality.
[02:24:01]  So he was saying that the human being is the bridge between that reality and this reality.
[02:24:07]  And that's what I found really interesting.
[02:24:08]  And it also gets me back, by the way, once I did publish the book, I had so much correspondence from mathematicians and artists.
[02:24:17]  Like they really resonated with Tyler and that downloading process.
[02:24:22]  And they each, I thought that these communities were completely different.
[02:24:26]  But I now see them as very similar.
[02:24:28]  So the artists believe that they're accessing some kind of place, right?
[02:24:33]  And then mathematicians also, not all of them, by the way, there's some that believe that they're imagining these places, but a good portion of them are what are called idealists, and they believe in the space of where these forms exist, like Platonic forms, and it's another dimension.
[02:24:49]  And once they access that, they can bring that information back to our reality.
[02:24:55]  So that goes back to the protocol.
[02:24:56]  So, what is it that humans are doing?
[02:24:59]  You know, what if we are these bridges, and, you know, part of our job is to keep our.
[02:25:05]  You know, our ability to maintain and cultivate this ability to be this bridge to create things, right?
[02:25:13]  And they so we can go to that reality, we can go escape this space time reality and go to that dimension by doing these protocols andor by taking these compounds, these or compounds that come from Earth.
[02:25:25]  Um, and then it appears that these things can also transcend into our dimension, and that's possibly what we're seeing.
[02:25:35]  I think so, yeah.
[02:25:36]  I think so.
[02:25:36]  With the space program, it looks like that's what was going on, but they weren't taking hallucinogens.
[02:25:40]  They were actually just accessing.
[02:25:41]  They were doing it naturally.
[02:25:42]  Yeah, yeah.
[02:25:43]  And, you know, as always, I think people need to understand that they should, if they do stuff like that, they need to do it responsibly, you know, because in, think about the churches that do it, like the Native American church, you know, the use of peyote.
[02:25:56]  It's done in a sacramental way, in a way that they believe is the benefit of their tribe or their culture.
[02:26:04]  And it's not done for recreation or, You know, so I think intention is really important.
[02:26:11]  If the intention behind it is to, you know, for the best good for all, I think it'd be great.
[02:26:18]  I think that not everybody, but, you know, even just a small percentage of people, like 10%, say.
[02:26:24]  Okay.
[02:26:24]  There's nothing to everybody.
[02:26:25]  Yeah.
[02:26:25]  Yeah.
[02:26:26]  Because I think that the effect would, would, and we're not talking about just taking hallucinogens and things like that.
[02:26:32]  We're talking about, you know, spirituality.
[02:26:34]  Yeah.
[02:26:35]  Yeah.
[02:26:35]  Spirituality.
[02:26:36]  Yeah.
[02:26:37]  I think it's a neglected part of humans right now.
[02:26:41]  Is there any possibility that these things could be us from the future?
[02:26:50]  Okay, so the UFO phenomena is like us from the future?
[02:26:53]  Yeah.
[02:26:54]  I mean, okay, if you're going to give, let's see, could it be us from the future?
[02:26:59]  A lot of people believe that, and I've recorded their beliefs in several of my publications.
[02:27:09]  My belief, yeah.
[02:27:11]  So my belief changes all the time.
[02:27:12]  Right.
[02:27:13]  So I never actually say what my belief is because it changes too much.
[02:27:17]  Right.
[02:27:17]  Right.
[02:27:17]  And I'll always talk to another really brilliant person who's like, then changes my mind.
[02:27:21]  And I'm like, oh, yeah, I believe that.
[02:27:24]  But I definitely have had my mind changed about time and us from the future.
[02:27:30]  So my ideas of time, you know, being there's no, you know, because a lot of the people that I'm talking with now, they don't even have ideas that time, there's this linear progression and they don't even speak that way.
[02:27:42]  Like the future and the past.
[02:27:44]  They're now, you know, their language is different.
[02:27:47]  So that's changed the way I think about time.
[02:27:51]  So maybe.
[02:27:53]  I can't say yes or no to that.
[02:27:56]  Is it us from the future?
[02:27:57]  I don't know.
[02:27:58]  I mean, if it is, why are they doing this?
[02:28:00]  Like, why are they hurting us?
[02:28:01]  You know, because some of them do.
[02:28:02]  You know, some people have burns and stuff.
[02:28:05]  So they shouldn't be doing that.
[02:28:06]  And that's part of what Gary's studying also, right?
[02:28:08]  Yeah.
[02:28:08]  Like Havana syndrome style burns and brain damage.
[02:28:12]  Yeah.
[02:28:13]  I wouldn't think that would be us from the future.
[02:28:16]  That's another thing that boggles my mind about the whole phenomenon because, like, before I was introduced to you, to your work, I was like really deep into the idea that going back to Rua Zimbabwe and the proliferation and sightings of UFOs over nuclear bases during the Cold War,
[02:28:35]  like, there was a crazy map diagram that was done on James Fox's Phenomenon documentary that showed all the nuclear tests around the world in correlation with all the UFO sightings around the world, how they correspond so.
[02:28:47]  Like, perfectly.
[02:28:50]  And then with the Rua Zimbabwe thing, with like these creatures coming down and communicating with the young kids, the school children, and telling them technology is bad.
[02:29:00]  That was one of the main things that those kids were getting like projected into their minds like, technology bad.
[02:29:06]  That like these things were trying to protect us or protect our planet.
[02:29:10]  So I was like, under, like, I had this idea and this feeling that this is all good.
[02:29:17]  But after looking into your research, it seems that they're not all good.
[02:29:20]  There's some, That are good and there's some that are evil, right?
[02:29:25]  Or is this these people that are getting damaged or are they getting hurt on accident?
[02:29:30]  Yeah, I think Gary's of the opinion that they're getting hurt on accident.
[02:29:33]  He could have changed his opinion since I last talked to him about that, but he thinks that it's like collateral damage, maybe.
[02:29:42]  However, as many good experiences that I've heard, and I've now heard many, like thousands, I've heard as many bad experiences.
[02:29:52]  So, I would have to suggest then that perhaps there are several different kinds of things that we're talking about.
[02:29:58]  Because, you know, the research that we've been doing, it's not, there's a lot of it that's not public.
[02:30:04]  And so, you know, we can't bring a lot of, you know, researchers to the table to talk about it openly, it seems, at this point still.
[02:30:15]  Right.
[02:30:16]  So, we're just beginning to understand it.
[02:30:19]  And it looks like different kinds of things.
[02:30:22]  Different kinds of things, different kinds of beings.
[02:30:24]  Yeah, that makes the most sense.
[02:30:26]  Yeah.
[02:30:27]  Because it's a nice idea that it is a super advanced species that is just looking out for us and trying to guide us in the right direction along the evolutionary path and not blow ourselves up.
[02:30:41]  There's also the connection with people like Tyler, how they're able to access this thing and children.
[02:30:49]  The biggest cases throughout history are just like Rua, Zimbabwe, the Westall School.
[02:30:55]  There's so many.
[02:30:56]  Depictions of these things or recordings of these things coming to schools and interacting with kids.
[02:31:04]  What do you make of that connection?
[02:31:06]  Yeah, you see, okay, so you do see this connection also within Catholic scholarship with like the Virgin Mary, the Virgin Mary kind of appearing to children as well.
[02:31:15]  So I don't know what I think about it.
[02:31:19]  I think that, especially when the kids, I think the best examples of the phenomena are the school examples because the kids grow up.
[02:31:29]  And they maintain their story and they're not going back on it and they believe it still and they still have the same message.
[02:31:37]  And that's quite amazing because you have corroborating evidence, you know, with Westall, with, you know, the Zimbabwe case.
[02:31:47]  And I think it's super compelling.
[02:31:49]  What is Ia's name?
[02:31:52]  Yeah, Dr. Whiteley.
[02:31:53]  Dr. Whiteley.
[02:31:54]  What is she doing as far as in regards to like babies and like teaching them to connect?
[02:32:00]  This network and like raising children in a different way.
[02:32:03]  You said there's some protocols that she's doing with young children.
[02:32:06]  Yeah, she's developed a program for infants basically because it's at that point that they're developing their neurons are connecting in order to create an infrastructure in their brains to identify different languages.
[02:32:22]  And she has identified a language, she calls it an earth language.
[02:32:27]  And she uses technology to take the language and to make it into graphemes, you know, like.
[02:32:37]  And then she's created a book.
[02:32:39]  I didn't know this, but babies don't see in color, they see in black and white.
[02:32:42]  And so the book is in black and white.
[02:32:45]  And she did it because of her own kids.
[02:32:47]  She wanted to share with them the beauty of the universe.
[02:32:50]  And she said that all the baby books were horrible.
[02:32:52]  So it was out of necessity that she did this.
[02:32:55]  So she's created this.
[02:32:58]  It's an immersive experience for these babies.
[02:33:01]  So they'll develop the ability to identify this earth language and it's nation independent.
[02:33:07]  So it's not English, it's not.
[02:33:09]  French, you know.
[02:33:10]  Oh, wow.
[02:33:11]  Yeah.
[02:33:12]  So she's doing this and it's really successful.
[02:33:16]  That's interesting.
[02:33:17]  Is this something you can buy, this book?
[02:33:18]  Or is this something?
[02:33:20]  Oh, really?
[02:33:20]  Yeah.
[02:33:20]  It's on Amazon.
[02:33:21]  I think you can put Earth language in and it'll come up.
[02:33:24]  And she's working with parents and babies and she's doing this.
[02:33:28]  That's really interesting.
[02:33:29]  Yeah.
[02:33:29]  Because that's close to what Michi Yukaku talks about when he talks to type one, type two, type three civilizations.
[02:33:37]  How, like, right now we're a type zero civilization.
[02:33:40]  And in order to become a type One civilization, we have to become like a planetary species, which is like it's all connected instead of like divided by nations, that we're all like together and not warring against each other and having a one world language.
[02:33:58]  We already have like an internet, right?
[02:34:00]  That's kind of like we're on our way, we're on the path to having like an earth language.
[02:34:05]  But that's fascinating hearing that.
[02:34:06]  Yeah, yeah, it's a really cool program.
[02:34:09]  Well, cool.
[02:34:11]  Thank you very much for doing this.
[02:34:12]  Yeah, I had a great time.
[02:34:13]  Thank you so much for inviting me.
[02:34:14]  Tell people.
[02:34:15]  People where they can follow your work and get your books.
[02:34:19]  Sure.
[02:34:19]  So I am on Twitter, DW Pasolka, and my books are on Barnes Noble and Amazon for which, wherever books are sold.
[02:34:28]  Perfect.
[02:34:29]  I'll make sure I link it all below.
[02:34:30]  And thank you again.