This week on Right Now, should the state really decide who lives and who dies?
I'm joined by Archie Battersby's mother, Holly Dance.
She'll be talking about this week's High Court victory against the judge's original ruling.
It grants them another chance to plead the case for their 12-year-old son's life support not to be turned off.
To watch the full episode, including all our other guests, please click on iconic.com and start a free seven-day trial.
On April 7th of this year, a 12-year-old boy called Archie Battersby was found unconscious at his Essex home.
Archie suffered brain damage and a High Court judge ruled that Archie had died and that doctors could turn off his life support.
Archie's parents, Holly and Paul, challenged the court's decision and this week won an appeal against the ruling.
They say Archie's heart is still beating and therefore treatment should continue.
We're privileged to have Archie's mother, Holly Dance, on the line with us now.
Hi Holly, thank you so much for joining us.
Obviously I want to focus mainly on the positivity and the fantastic result you've had in High Court this week.
But for our viewers that are from overseas that might not be so familiar with Archie's case, would you be able to give us a bit of a background as to what happened from April leading up to now?
Yes, of course. So on the 7th of April, myself and Archie had a weeping out for something to eat.
It's a vegetarian restaurant, went out for something to eat, popped into Tesco's on the way home to get some bits of the cinema.
I always go to the cinema. Went home, potted around in the kitchen for a little while, just putting some clothes away.
Then I went upstairs, asked me if I could order him a coat.
It was currently online to his brother, getting some ideas for new coats and he had found one.
Yeah, so asked me if I could order the coat.
I said, yeah, I'll do it.
We'll go pictures and then I'll do it when we get back and we're in bed later, Arch.
And I said, all right, thanks, Mum.
I went upstairs, said, I'm just going to charge my phone, put a few things away and then we're going to go.
And went upstairs, put my phone on charge.
I took a couple of phone calls.
Archie came in on the last phone call and...
He came into the bedroom and said I've got some sweets for you and he's got this big white drawstring swim bag I just laughed at him.
I said, no you haven't. The rabbit's in the bag, Arch.
And as he approached my bed, the rabbit poked his head out the top of the bag.
Obviously, the rabbit's safe. It wasn't like a carry bag on him.
He loved his rabbit.
Or loves his rabbit.
He said, the rabbit's poked his head out, so we both just started giggling and laughing.
I then sat to Arch. Like, I've had the rabbit downstairs.
Not going to be too long.
So he... I'm assuming he took the rabbit downstairs.
A couple of minutes later, A few minutes later, I've come out of the bedroom, called him because he was quiet.
I've called him and thought he was in the bedroom opposite, which was Archie's bedroom, bang, opposite my bedroom door, and his blue covers on the floor.
There was no movement, so I realised very quickly Archie wasn't in now.
Something caught my eye to the right of me, which is where the stairs are, and it was his rabbit at the top of the stairs, and then very quickly, I've noticed Archie there that straight away I was like, I'll take the rabbit downstairs and then very quickly realised he had something round his neck.
Yeah, so I've gone round and obviously he's got this hoop tied underneath his chin going round the back of his head.
So I've instantly yelled, Archie, Tried to pull him up and unhook the hoop over his neck.
I couldn't do it. I couldn't hold him and do it at the same time.
It was quite a big hoop. It wasn't tight around his neck.
Tried to get him down. I couldn't.
So I pulled the liquid chair forward.
So I was resting under his chin.
Run outside, screamed for help.
And then run back in and run straight back up.
Managed, obviously, I'm an absolute...
Frenzy at this time, absolute state.
Tried to break the hoop and I did.
I managed to snap it and then with that, oh, she's just become floppy and just fell.
So as he's fallen, I haven't got no banister there.
As he's fallen, he's fallen straight over to the hallway, like the floor, which is about an eight foot drop.
Yeah, and then I've run out, run down, like, In the state, really.
Archie, like, trying to wake him up.
CPR went outside, screamed again, like, help my neighbour.
I'd come round the corner at that time.
Like, I said, call an ambulance, call an ambulance.
And he's on the phone to the ambulance while I was giving Archie CPR. Breath was coming out of Archie's mouth when I was breathing in.
And I was pumping, obviously, away.
Not really knowing what I'm doing, but just...
Doing what I could really, and then my neighbour took over, and then the ambulance arrived.
So what do you believe it was all about in terms of having this hoop around his neck?
First of all, I thought initially he'd just been playing about, because the night before, which obviously we didn't realise until his sister arrived at the hospital, the night before apparently he had it on his head and he was opening and closing her door, Right. And the bedroom door.
And he told him to stop.
So he then put it around his feet and he was opening and closing the door.
He told him to stop or get out of her bedroom like siblings do.
And he did. He stopped and spent the rest of the evening in her room watching TV, watching films.
So, yeah, initially I thought he was just playing about.
I've got no reasons whatsoever.
I don't even cross my mind, not even for a second, that he was attempting to take his life.
I've just got to say that.
Obviously, I think that initially is what sort of comes to people's minds.
Archie's a very, very happy child.
Getting very geared up for his fight, his first MMA fight.
He's in gymnastics.
Ordered the coat or wanted me to order the coat obviously that evening.
Very, very happy boy. So yeah, that rules obviously that one well and truly out.
So initially we thought he's had some sort of freak accident.
It was very quickly then drawn to my attention and it still might not be this.
Four days later that someone went in on their six-year-old child and they were doing exactly the same.
That's what Archie was doing.
And when, obviously, she's like screaming, like, what are you doing?
He was copying an online, I won't say the name, obviously, I'm getting help for that, but he was copying an online challenge.
So, and apparently it is a bit of a thing that the kids are all copying at the moment.
So now, obviously, the police are looking in Archie's phone for me to see if they've got any evidence that he could have possibly been doing that.
Of course. So obviously the ambulance takes Archie to hospital.
How long was he in hospital before he got involved with the High Court and judges making decisions on Archie's behalf?
Right, so he arrived at Southend.
So we phoned the ambulance at 4.11.
He arrived at Southend, I think, don't cry me on that, just before 5.00.
And then...
We didn't actually arrive.
Obviously they've stabilised him and they came in and told me the only contact I believe I actually had with them.
I think I'm starting to feel a bit shocked by them.
But yeah.
Yes, coming in.
I'm saying that Archie is making attempts to breathe mum.
We've had to put him into neuroprotection to protect his brain.
We're just waiting for the panda team to come down from the Royal London Hospital.
We waited hours and we eventually arrived here at midnight.
Right, and did they make a decision very quickly in terms of Archie's well-being, or is it something that kind of progressed?
No, very quickly really.
Within about 10 minutes, I was told he's probably not going to make it.
And then a little while, oh, he's going down for a CAT scan.
And then a little while later, basically, we're going to wait and see.
And then no wait and see led to it, because he come from Southend to have a, I think it's called a cranioscopy, which is where they release the swelling.
So they cut the skull, release the swelling, I believe that's what happens.
And that is why Southend Hospital sent him here and that never took place.
So it feels then the decision was made far, far, far too quickly.
So obviously I'm assuming then you've obviously disagreed with that decision.
It's then gone to a judge who has agreed with them originally, with the hospital originally.
Well, so basically with regards to the decision, so that was obviously on the first night.
On day three, obviously he's still here, so he did get through the night.
Day three, still here, we was called into a meeting With certain members of the clinical team and told that Archie's brain dead.
Within a couple of minutes this was Archie's brain dead.
We want to carry out a brain stem test which is just a legal procedure basically to pronounce death and then we won't be doing it.
There's a DNR so we won't be resuscitating him if he goes into cardiac arrest which obviously I was like What?
12 years old. Followed very quickly by talking about we'll have time to get friends up and family to say goodbye and then a conversation with regards to organ donation to take place within about two minutes.
It seems like there's such a huge disconnect from the human element of the fact that, like you've said, this is a 12-year-old boy we're talking about.
Definitely no compassion or empathy at all.
So obviously you've appealed, you've won that appeal, which is absolutely incredible.
So what happens now?
There's another hearing on July the 11th, is that correct?
Right, so there's actually been, yesterday was the 10th court appearance, there's been at least one awake at least.
It's been very tiring.
The hospital had us in court within two weeks because we refused the binding stem test in.
The court then awarded in the hospital's favour and went ahead with the brainstem testing despite the risks.
They couldn't. They had to do a nerve test to see that Archie could respond to obviously this light test and the nerve test failed.
It showed that none of the Archie's muscles could respond.
So the hospital were asked whether Archie was on any muscle-relaxing drugs, and they actually asked three times, and then terminated the test because it couldn't be carried out.
And so, yeah, and then obviously back to court, there's another eight court appearances after that.
The judge awarded on the, not yesterday, the one before that, Archie was likely to be dead, her words, likely to be dead, on the probability of 51%, and based on an MRI image, was pronounced likely to be dead on the 31st of May.
And then, obviously, we've appealed, and that was overturned yesterday by the Court of Appeal.
Which is fantastic. I mean, the word likely is extraordinary.
When you're dealing with the life of a 12-year-old boy, it doesn't matter whether you're dealing with likely or unlikely.
So, I mean, your legal team have kind of determined that, you know, mistakes were made in that judgment and that ruling.
Obviously, they weren't taking yourself and your family and Archie's kind of will into it.
It was all very matter of fact.
What do you think will be different in July?
Do you think that, you know, you've...
Do you feel like there's a fighting chance now?
Yeah, I'm hoping that this time, obviously, we haven't been allowed any medical experts outside.
Independents come in and examine Arche.
We're still not allowed now. And I'm just hoping that, obviously, the clinical team here put through before that Arch is deteriorating because at the time the feeds were being withheld from Arch and he lost over two stone in white and the reason for that was he wasn't absorbing food which wasn't the case at all.
He's absorbing very well and so he was then I asked could he then be given leperomide which is basically like Imodium to stop obviously it coming from the other end and First of all I was told no and then they said yes.
My MP got involved in the meantime and his feeds were then resumed and have been consistent since and he's now gaining weight.
Obviously he's gained weight.
He holds his own body temperature at 36.5.
He just fought off sepsis.
So since he's been likely to be dead, he's fought off sepsis.
He's fought off a tummy bug.
Which explains why he needed the leperomy to start with.
He's feeding, he's absorbing and he's gaining weight.
His heart beats, his heart's very strong, never had a problem there.
I've just recently done a BMP test on Archie that reveals no damage on his heart.
So from the first or the one and only cardiac arrest, I think people are a bit confused for some reason.
It's sort of gone out there that Archie suffered another cardiac arrest the last time we was in court, which wasn't the case.
It was one and that was the original, obviously, incident.
Of course. He sounds like an absolute warrior to be fighting through all this stuff.
I find it strange.
For me, I'm thinking almost like, explain this to me like I'm five.
You're saying we want to get independent people to look at Archie, and they're saying no.
Explain to me why I'm five.
Why someone wouldn't allow that?
Surely you should be trying everything.
Well, obviously I've got my views on that, but I can't really...
I can't really say that.
I think that's going to be very much sort of future court case down the line, but I know why.
But yeah, I think it's down to members of the public really to ask that question themselves.
You know, what would be the hardship in, for one, allowing us our own independent team in?
What would be the hardship in giving Archie time to recover?
You know, according to the clinical team, he could have a heart attack and I can't really sort of get My head round it.
Well, I can, but obviously I think it's down to the public to get their head round that one.
No, and it asks bigger questions about, you know, what right certain people have to make these decisions, you know, to basically play God in a way.
Most definitely. It's extraordinary.
See, I say that apparently it's in the child's best interest and what Archie would have wanted.
I'm Archie's mum and a lot of the time Archie didn't want to go to school.
But as his mum, I have to send him to school.
You know, some decisions I don't think should be down to children to make.
You know, and with regards to this decision, no, it shouldn't be down to a guardian that spoke to Archie, or not didn't speak to Archie, but visited Archie's room and was in the room for about 30 seconds.
It shouldn't be down to her to make that decision to end Archie's life and it shouldn't be down to the hospital and it shouldn't be down to a judge.
It should be down to us as a family and it should be a personal decision.
I think it is a personal choice.
There's families out there that might want to not go through this and I respect their views and I think that people should respect mine.
I believe my son's still there and I believe he's going to make a recovery and I think he just needs some time.
Yeah, and you should absolutely be given that.
My heart goes out to you.
As a parent myself, it's extraordinary to contemplate the emotions you've gone through since April.
But the fact that you're fighting yourself and Paul and you've won this case this week is fantastic.
I just wish you all the best.
First time I've smiled in nearly 11 weeks.
Yeah, I can honestly only imagine.
But you're a true warrior.
And thank you so much for talking to us.
We really, really appreciate your time.
And I know everyone watching this will have their fingers crossed and is rooting for you and Archie.