July 28, 2019 - David Icke
45:04
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| I'm a non-binary elephant. Podcast. | |
| Hello everybody and welcome to the non-binary elephant podcast. | |
| I'm Jamie Icke. Joining me? | |
| Gareth Icke. This week we've got former Derby County footballer Shane Nicholson joining us for our very first in studio. | |
| And you get your first view of Bino, which is what this podcast is named after, because it's non-binary, clearly. | |
| Shane, welcome to the podcast. | |
| Good afternoon, gentlemen. How are you doing? | |
| Very well, thank you. Very well. | |
| Thanks for joining us on a, well, it doesn't feel like a British summer's day, it feels like a fucking Spanish summer's day in there, doesn't it, to be fair? | |
| It's far too hot. It is far too hot. | |
| Typical Brits, moaning all summer that we've had rain, and now we're moaning it's too hot, and we've had about three days or so. | |
| We're now at the nights of a drawing in, lads, so let's enjoy it while it's here. | |
| Yeah, absolutely. If we can. | |
| Absolutely. We've got so much we want to speak to you about, obviously. | |
| I think quite a cool place for you to go back to the beginning, what got you into football in the first place. | |
| It's a sport that so many young kids in this country want to play, and very few make it to the professional level. | |
| So yeah, what was that like growing up, getting into football, realising you're good and you could make a career out of it? | |
| Yeah, well, I mean, I got into football through, kind of, because of my family life. | |
| My home life wasn't great at home so I needed an outlet and it was the fact that all the lads back then used to play football so I wanted to join in and it was something that I found out I was good at. | |
| So that kind of materialised from there. | |
| When you go to school then you become popular because you're very good at football which is something I found very How I got into it was because of the home life that I saw at home. | |
| There was a lot of domestic violence at home with my household and that's how I fell into football. | |
| It was only by chance. | |
| My dad enjoyed football. He loved football. | |
| He's a Man United, George, best supporter, fan. | |
| So it was by chance that I fell into it. | |
| If at the time it was horse racing, I'd have been horse racing. | |
| If it was boxing, I'd have done boxing. | |
| Whatever it was, it's just the fact that in the 80s, We all used to meet, or lads used to meet to play football in the park, and so I joined them one day and found that I had a lot of energy, and I became a natural at football, so it kind of materialised from there. | |
| You made your debut at 16, didn't you? | |
| Yeah. Which is crazy young. | |
| It is, yeah, but at 16, you don't think you're 16, do you? | |
| No, I suppose not, no. You think you're actually 25, 26, and my headspace, I certainly didn't act like a 16-year-old, actually, I was like a 12-year-old. | |
| Right. I was completely opposite. | |
| But for me, it was like, it was the perfect environment for me, football, because football back in the 80s when I made my debut, it was a massive drinking culture. | |
| Huge drinking culture. | |
| And it was nothing like what it is today, that's for sure. | |
| So for me, because my understanding of a man was what I saw my father, how he was. | |
| And he was an alcoholic. | |
| And everything that comes with an alcoholic, he was. | |
| He was a wife, Peter. He was a womanizer. | |
| He was everything. And so, in my head, I want to be this man. | |
| And so, I see what my dad does. | |
| And the words in my head ring. | |
| Because for many, many years, my mum, she says to me, don't end up like your dad, don't end up like your dad. | |
| And lo and behold, I ended up doing what my father did, which was not becoming a great person. | |
| You know, a lot of it's been publicised in papers and whatnot, national papers. | |
| So he wasn't a great person, he wasn't a great role model to have, that's for sure. | |
| And football then became, as I said to you before, it was an outlet, it was an escape for me. | |
| Because living a normal life, I couldn't deal with at all because I was a... | |
| I was very apt to speak in. | |
| I had no social skills whatsoever. | |
| Couldn't talk to people. And that's really how I started to drink in and take in drugs because they kind of gave me this, you found confidence. | |
| Right. And it kind of materialised from there. | |
| How early did that come into your career then? | |
| Because you were at Lincoln City at 16, then you went to Derby. | |
| Were you already feeling like you were kind of getting involved in that culture even that young? | |
| Yeah, I mean I always felt as a kid I was a bit weird and I was a bit different to everybody else. | |
| I don't know for what reason, I always felt I was a bit of a loner. Always. | |
| And I still do, in all honesty. | |
| Even though I've played football for 20-odd years, I still own it. | |
| I still like my own company. | |
| Even though I've got a family and kids, I still love my own company. | |
| I could go and live on my own on an island anywhere. | |
| For the next 10 years, I'm really good at doing it. | |
| I have to be careful. But isolation is what brings me problems. | |
| Right. But where did it all start? | |
| I mean, I noticed, I remember my first drink was at nine years old, ten years old. | |
| I remember it was like it was yesterday. | |
| And we was at school behind a wall and I drank a drink out of a can of lager. | |
| And it was like I was in a dark room and this light bulb just came off on my head. | |
| And I thought that was for everyone. | |
| It was just for me. | |
| So I was always just chasing that feeling from a drink. | |
| I never liked any taste of any alcohol or spirit. | |
| It was just the feeling that it gave me and it took me away from reality. | |
| Was that part of the reason you left Derby? | |
| Because it was West Brom, Sheffield United and Chesterfield? | |
| Would you feel like you were escaping something? | |
| Leaving the club, go somewhere else. | |
| It would be different when I go somewhere else. | |
| Certainly for the first 12 years of my career when I was active as an alcoholic and a drug addict, your shelf life can be very short at a football club because then they realise what a problem you are. | |
| On the pitch and on the training ground, I would give 110% I've given awards for being the best trainers at all different clubs, but not because I wanted to be the best, that was because I was always scared of the sessions ending. | |
| I never wanted training to end, so I'd always stay out because I didn't want to go back to reality, because I was rubbish at dealing with it. | |
| I couldn't deal with it. | |
| So, for me, I just wanted to stay on the training ground and then become the coach's friend and, oh, look at him, he's popular, he's good, he wants to keep fit. | |
| So, yeah, I mean, so that's how it started. | |
| What was your favourite football moment? | |
| I've got a favourite football moment of yours, but... | |
| Well, a lot will talk for Derby, certainly the goal against Sheffield Wednesday, but | |
| I only scored two goals for Derby and my other goal was better. | |
| Really? | |
| Yeah, I mean it was a half-volley right foot from the edge of the box, which I only stood | |
| on for 22 years of my playing career. | |
| Very, very rarely kicked with it. | |
| But it's just the magnitude of the other game made it what it was. | |
| But yeah, I mean, the baseball ground was a special, special place. | |
| Just driving down there, you know, down the streets and just an amazing place to play. | |
| It really was great memories. For people that, because a lot of people listen to this around the country, and so the baseball grounds, the football ground here in Derby, and it was, it's not there anymore, it was all terraced houses when the pitch was, the fans were close to the pitch. | |
| It was like a proper old British football ground. | |
| Yeah, old British football ground, a real cauldron of I mean, you ask many away team players, they hate it. | |
| If you ask a player nowadays, they say, what grounds do you not like playing at? | |
| Most of them will say they don't play anywhere. | |
| Because it's kind of a pantomime, really. | |
| But the pop side at Derby on a cold Tuesday night was not a pleasant place because you're taking a throw in. | |
| The fans come and grab hold of you and pour you into the crowd. | |
| There was quite a voice in for us. | |
| And that's for the home players as well. | |
| They actually let you know if you wasn't up to standards as well. | |
| There was a famous one against Fulham in the 80s when Derby needed a point to stay up. | |
| The Fulham guys got the ball running down the wing and a Derby fan jumped on the pitch and fly-kicked him. | |
| You can see it on YouTube. I've never seen anything like it. | |
| Just fly-kicked the guy and injured him. | |
| He went down and then there was a big melee and the ref just blew the final whistle and stopped the game. | |
| Derby stayed up. Unbelievable. | |
| I remember we were playing at Southend once. | |
| Martin Taylor was in goal. And it was at Roots Hall. | |
| Martin Taylor was walking back to take the goal kick. | |
| And the wall behind the goal was only probably about 3 or 4 foot and it actually fell over the wall and the fans pulled him in and all you can see is two big size 11 feet hanging over the wall. | |
| I've been trying to get on for ages. Bless her. | |
| But it was alright, but continue. I love Roots Hall. | |
| I've been there a few times. Really? | |
| Yeah, it's a lovely ground. Yeah, it's a nice place. | |
| Those old grounds are so much better than the soulless ones you've got now. | |
| I think so. I mean, you look at, let's say, let's use Pride Park as an example. | |
| Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, a lot was said last year about trying to drum up this atmosphere at the games and things like that, you know, and they've tried everything. | |
| You know, he's put flags out, they've got the young man saying the poem before the game. | |
| They've tried everything, but... | |
| For me, it's social media. | |
| It's phones. Oh, totally. | |
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. People are in grounds and they're on their phones now. | |
| They're not cheering and shouting and being voices. | |
| Because most people are on the phone and I'm one of them. | |
| I've done it myself. So, I understand why it's like that. | |
| I think there are a couple of grounds still. | |
| I mean, the noisiest grounds I've played, I'd have to say, would have been... | |
| Maybe not now, but Birmingham City, Stoke and Portsmouth with the three noisiest grounds that I've played at. | |
| Yeah, Portsmouth used to be great. | |
| Yeah, incredible. | |
| But I find it's the same with music. | |
| If you used to go to a gig and people would be jumping around and dancing and getting into the vibe and whatever, now they're just standing holding a mobile phone filming it. | |
| Do you know what's annoying? Because I was literally going to say the same thing. | |
| I literally was. Because I remember I took Erin, niece, to watch Ellie Goulding and she was going on about how once upon a time everyone just stood there with lighters. | |
| Now they just stood there with their phones filming it. | |
| No one's singing. No one's dancing. | |
| It's dead quiet in here. | |
| I always think with those videos like when are you watching that? | |
| Yeah. When do you watch it back? | |
| Because you could watch it live but you're watching it through your Is it worse than the video of somebody else or worse than the video of themselves? | |
| 99% of the time. | |
| We've become quite a narcissistic culture, haven't we? | |
| We have. 100% we have. | |
| Going back to football, what do you think are the main differences from then to now? | |
| I'll let you get a word in Edgeways. | |
| Within the game or what do you mean by the style of the game or just in the whole thing in general? | |
| Either to be honest, because what I was thinking is in terms of the support for footballers then, the support for footballers now, a lot of stuff that I see if a footballer's got an issue, it's very much a case of, well, he's on 100 grand a week, she'd grow up and get on with it. | |
| And it's like, well, yeah, mental health doesn't really work like that. | |
| Yeah. And I just wondered what the main difference is. | |
| Well, because £100,000 makes you immune to anyone's... | |
| Well, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, because it does it, doesn't it? | |
| Well, do you think the money has had an effect on that, whereas back in the day... | |
| Footballers were seen as real people. | |
| Salaries weren't that much more than someone would necessarily get. | |
| Now, because the money's so big, it's almost like they're not treated like humans. | |
| Money certainly has had a big, big part to play in it. | |
| It's changed the way football goes now because I think players have an awful lot of power. | |
| An awful lot of power. | |
| But going back to your question, I think that the sooner players realise that they're a commodity, they are just a piece of meat, rather than have this ego, which they teach you to have as a footballer. | |
| You're taught to be very selfish as a footballer. | |
| Even though it's a team game, you're taught to be very selfish. | |
| But you're actually just a piece of meat. | |
| And I think as a young player, the sooner you can realise that, that's all you are, you have a sell-by day, you'll have a better career. | |
| Because you just get used. | |
| Football clubs just use you. | |
| That's all they do. Use you. | |
| In my honest opinion, it's the modern day slavery sport is because, as we know, it's taking people's minds away from what's really happening in the world. | |
| And I understand all that. | |
| Because I detest what's going off in the game so much now, I've become an agent. | |
| A football agent. Because I read what football agents take away from players, take away from football clubs, and I think it's astronomical. | |
| I think it's just completely bonkers. | |
| Completely bonkers. Because they don't give anything to the game. | |
| What do they give? They call it problems. | |
| Yeah, but a footballer on silly money is at least playing football. | |
| So he's being part of the game, isn't he? | |
| Or she. So what do they give? | |
| Yeah, exactly. What service do they give? | |
| Do you know what I mean? | |
| Going back to your question again, for the younger players, if you look at every football | |
| club, I think Derby's got, is in probably one of the top ten in Europe for their facilities, | |
| grounds, it's that good. | |
| It's incredible. Everything is geared up to make the commodity better. | |
| Right. Physically. But mentally, and spiritually to a degree, there's nothing there. | |
| Really? In my opinion. Right. | |
| So it's, right, let's get this piece of meat to the best of its ability and let's try and make it worth the most while it's with us. | |
| And then get rid of it. Do you know what I mean? | |
| So it's more like a resource then. | |
| Yeah, or we use it and then if it's no good then we just toss it aside. | |
| And that's what they do do. That's what they do do. | |
| But as footballers you think, oh well I'm worth this, I'm worth that. | |
| But it's just absolute nonsense. | |
| So I mean, help footballers, it might seem there's an awful lot out there. | |
| And there is, but it's the same old thing with football. | |
| It seems like the footballers seem to have to wait until they've made that mistake Before they get help. | |
| And that's down to the footballer themselves. | |
| They have to analyse themselves, which they don't do as well either. | |
| But, you know, so there's still a lot more they could do, you know, with the drug testing, with the mental health, all sorts. | |
| There's so much more they can do, in my opinion. | |
| Yeah. Especially, I think, if you've got... | |
| I mean, I think, to me now, I mean, I'm... | |
| At 37, I had to think about that. | |
| Take a couple of numbers off. | |
| Yeah, but if you gave me 100 grand a week now, even at 37, with my life experience, I like to think I'm quite a clued up bloke, I know that I would mess up and do things and act in certain ways and make mistakes and blow it up the wall on something that was ridiculous. | |
| I think about me at 17. | |
| Yeah. Do you know what I mean? | |
| I mean, this lad... | |
| Hudson Adoy has just signed 100 grand a week. | |
| I mean, how old is he? 18. | |
| 50 million. 50 million deal. | |
| I mean, that's insane. | |
| I dread to think what I'd have done with 100 grand a week at 17, 18. | |
| Well, I mean, you look at Wayne Rooney... | |
| People talk about him a lot. I mean, he's come from top city state. | |
| You know, a young kid, council of state. | |
| All of a sudden, he's gone from, like, being on five round a week to, like, he was on something like eight or nine to nine, his first concert at Man United. | |
| Just a ridiculous amount. | |
| And because of the social media platform that people have nowadays anyway, you can't go anywhere. | |
| No. So, football really is a goldfish ball. | |
| So, they have a price to pay. | |
| Forget what money they earn. | |
| Because, yeah, it's beautiful. | |
| And people might say, well, how can you be a slave if you're being paid £150,000 a week or whatever? | |
| But, you know, he sorts him after his career. | |
| He can't go out and do what he wants to do. | |
| No. You know, he's had to go to America. | |
| You know, you're having photos taken. | |
| You're doing this, you're doing that. | |
| And, you know, one person that you don't have your autograph with or photograph taken... | |
| Oh, what a bad person he is because he's allowed a bad day. | |
| Yeah, yeah, of course. He's allowed a bad day, but because these guys earn vast amounts of money, it seems that they're at the disposal of the public and the media. | |
| Sorry? Go on, you can. | |
| I'll keep putting in. | |
| I say, I think that comes down to a misunderstanding of life in general and thinking that money solves all your problems. | |
| And someone having 100 grand a week, 200 grand a week, whatever, means they don't suffer the same problems that an everyday bloke suffers with. | |
| Like you're saying, having a bad day, being a bit down, maybe having a bit of anxiety. | |
| Money doesn't solve those sorts of things. | |
| I totally think it does. It just gives you more choices. | |
| It does. That's literally all it does. | |
| It gives you more choices. | |
| But, you know, I understand why Joe Public would say... | |
| Well, you know, I'd like to try that, I'd like to try that, because why wouldn't you? | |
| Yeah, you would, absolutely. You're getting paid to do something that we love, you know, that we enjoy. | |
| I always found it as a hobby, actually. | |
| If I'm completely honest, it was just a hobby for me. | |
| Yeah, I never saw it as a job. | |
| I just didn't see it as a job at all. | |
| It wasn't my calling, but I thoroughly enjoyed my career, even though I went through what I went through. | |
| I had some of the best times, some of the worst times as well, some of the worst times of my life, but some of the best times that made me what I am today. | |
| You have a career after football, in terms of coaching and stuff, and I think that says a lot about you. | |
| Or at least how people perceive you. | |
| Because when you were playing and you were making these mistakes and whatever, it would have been very easy to have just gone, waste of space, next, be a troublemaker, don't want him working with young players. | |
| But obviously people, particularly at Chesterfield, at the beginning, they were like, no, no, he's got something about him. | |
| And you can give some advice and stuff like that, which is, I always think that's better. | |
| I think it is. I just wanted to give something back. | |
| I didn't think that... | |
| I went through what I went through to just keep it to myself and then not share it with people. | |
| Absolutely, yeah. Because all these young people, we just talked about a couple of players, the vast amounts of money that they're ruining. | |
| They need help. Yeah, totally. | |
| They need help. But it's getting into the football clubs, though, because the football clubs are so closed off, they don't want to let outsiders in. | |
| Right. It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. | |
| But, yeah, I just think they need help. | |
| But, you know, to get into clubs like Chelsea, Man United and clubs like that, these are... | |
| Ruining it. And if someone like me got in there and was found to be hurt, to be helping a player, and then that got out to the press, imagine what that would do. | |
| Oh, Chelsea's got a problem with such and such. | |
| You know, just be open, be transparent. | |
| If you have got a problem, what is wrong with that? | |
| We're human beings. I listened to a little bit of what Gareth Bale said, he feels like he's a robot at the minute. | |
| I totally understand that. | |
| But people will go straight to me, what is on 600 grand a week? | |
| And what? What does it matter? | |
| But that then comes back to the piece of meat thing that you were saying. | |
| Yeah, of course it does. | |
| I mean, I remember... Russell Brands, I don't normally agree with a hell of a lot of stuff Russell Brands said, but when he was talking about the government were putting these people in place to do stuff with drugs and helping kids with drugs, and the people they were putting in were basically politicians. | |
| And Russell Brand was saying, well, why aren't you getting someone like me? | |
| Someone who's got a history of drug dependency and stuff. | |
| And who's turned their life around. And has turned his life around, yeah, so very much like yourself. | |
| And, you know, if I was Tottenham or Man United or whoever and had a problem with it, I'd... | |
| Maybe I'm being naive, but I'd want everyone to know that this was happening at our club. | |
| Yeah. Because this is a club that you can come to, you can play for us, and if you have a problem, we'll help you. | |
| Yeah, I totally agree. You know? | |
| Totally agree, but it is completely the opposite, as I said, because it's the brand. | |
| Yeah, everything's the brand, isn't it? | |
| We've got to protect the brand and, you know, and the FA do a great job of that, in all honesty. | |
| A lot of hiding it. Yeah, protecting it. | |
| I think the worst thing you can do if you're trying to help someone, or you need help, is have someone talk down to you. | |
| Which, if you've got a politician talking to you about drugs, they either talk... | |
| Well, actually, in fairness, half of them aren't too fair, aren't they? | |
| They're snorting out of cake than anyone. | |
| But talking down to you, rather than someone like you going, talking on their level, the same problems that they're going through, you've been through and you've come over, that's going to give so much more to somebody than... | |
| If you look how the modern day manager of football teams now has changed, if you look at the likes of Pep Guardiola, Pochettino, when I played, there was always a distant gap between the playing staff and the players. | |
| There was always a massive gap. Much, much closer. | |
| Much, much closer. I suppose you become more like a father figure. | |
| And that's what you want. But back when I was playing, it was like going to see the school teacher. | |
| You saw them as authority. | |
| And everyone that doesn't like authority, you're going to back off. | |
| If you get pushed into a corner, you're going to fight against it. | |
| And that's what I always do. | |
| Because they always deem themselves to be up there and you down here. | |
| But now I just see it as completely different. | |
| I watch Pep and I listen to Pep and Pochettino again, another prime example. | |
| I think he's incredible. | |
| And the relationship he has with his players. | |
| How does Pochettino keep the likes of Harry Kane and plays out at his football club without | |
| spending a penny for 16-18 months? | |
| How does he do that? | |
| Because Harry Kane is a world class centre forward, world class. | |
| But Pochettino has managed to keep him at the football club. | |
| Some might say, well he's 150 gand a week. | |
| Well he can go to Barcelona and probably 350 gand a week. | |
| But Pochettino has managed to keep him at Tottenham. | |
| And he's probably had to tell him as well, listen, we're not going to buy anyone for over a year, but please just stay with us. | |
| So, you know, that as well. | |
| It's that whole thing of wanting to play for a manager, isn't it? | |
| Yeah. Wanting to, I suppose if you use the example of a father figure, you want to impress and make your father proud to an extent, don't you? | |
| So he probably wants to go out there and win a trophy for him. | |
| Yeah. The same with all those young players that he's brought through. | |
| Same with Klopp at Liverpool, a massive fan of him for the same kind of reasons. | |
| Absolutely spot on, Klopp, what a hero. | |
| I think the game's changed, hasn't it, in the fact that those, like you were saying, those authoritative people, they don't work anymore. | |
| And I think that's why Ferguson was so successful, because he was that. | |
| He evolved. He evolved, didn't he? | |
| And he adapted, and he went from this nasty, horrible man... | |
| Who I would have, if I was a footballer, no chance would I have gone to Manchester United in the early days because he'd just be horrible to me and I couldn't cope with that. | |
| To the lad that was basically Ronaldo's dad for about four years. | |
| But do you not think that is something to do with, because if you look at the generation of footballers now, I think they are mentally weaker. | |
| I think they are literally mentally weaker and I say that because Everything at their disposal. | |
| Everything they want, they get. | |
| Look at kids now of eight years old, they're given a Derby County strip. | |
| They're in an academy. You know, look at 10-year-olds, they have mobile phones, they have everything. | |
| 14-year-olds got mobile phones. | |
| They can virtually buy anything on a mobile phone they want to buy on the never and ever. | |
| So what do they understand about the value of money? | |
| Nothing really. So they've got everything. | |
| Everything they want, they have. | |
| I just think that, and I've seen it. | |
| I've seen how managers have had to change over the years because players can't be shouted at. | |
| Because if you shout at them, you lose them. | |
| But when I was going to change them, I've seen Arthur Cox, I've seen Roy McFarlane and people like that. | |
| Just hammer me. Hammer me. | |
| Neil Warnock. Hammer me. | |
| Absolutely nail me. | |
| I remember playing Sheffield United and we played a friendly game at Plymouth. | |
| My first ever game. It was a friendly there and I took a corner and I put a corner and I didn't sprint back. | |
| Well, I got in at half-time and Neil Warnock absolutely roasted me and took me off. | |
| Just took me for my first ever game and embarrassed me to the hill. | |
| Never did it again, ever. Never. | |
| But I do literally think that the players now, they are much, much weaker mentally. | |
| I think people in general are mentally weaker. | |
| I agree. I think that's what social media is not up with that, is it? | |
| I just see so much abuse in it. | |
| I think people are just weaker in general. | |
| They get offended easier. | |
| Someone shouts at me, you're just back into a corner rather than the attitude of, fuck you, I'm going to show you that I'm going to do that again. | |
| You're going to talk to me like that again. That's the kind of old attitude that you need, to be fair, to be successful in sport. | |
| I think it would be interesting to roll forward maybe 10, 15 years from now. | |
| You know when these weaker footballers that have had everything on a moon on a stick, when they're at their retirement age, Because the percentage of pundits, the percentage of coaches and managers and whatever is so minuscule that the rest of them are just going to disappear into the abyss. | |
| And if they're mentally weak, can you imagine that? | |
| I remember listening to an interview with Wayne Bridge, and he was saying when he retired, and he's a pretty sharp, clued-up bloke, and he was saying for days he didn't really know what to do, because he didn't know what to eat, because he wasn't being told he was eating that way. | |
| Yeah. Listen, I completely understand that. | |
| Completely understand that. In fact, I saw a piece in the paper today about Chris Kirkland, who's been struggling with mental illness, and he's found himself back in the clinic again as well, so... | |
| I don't think footballers want simply that. | |
| That's the last thing they want. Because the first thing people will mention is the money that they earn. | |
| It's a double-edged sword, that's for sure. | |
| There's an awful lot of nice things that you can do. | |
| But playing at the top level, certainly nowadays, on social media. | |
| If I was a player now, I wouldn't be on social media. | |
| No chance. I would leave it. | |
| Could you imagine searching your name after a bad game? | |
| Because of my connection with Dog, I listen to some of the stuff about Richard Keer. | |
| We all have our own favourite players at football clubs, but some of it is beyond... it's just awful. | |
| You probably wrote half of it. No, it is, no. | |
| I'm not a fan of Keo, but when he got... | |
| His wife was abused and stuff, and that stuff was insane. | |
| That's what I'm on about. Yeah. | |
| Not old Keo's this. | |
| I'm on about that. Yeah, that stuff was vile. | |
| I mean, good grief. | |
| It's ridiculous. Yeah. | |
| But that happens a lot. | |
| I think, like, Bryson's the same. | |
| Obviously, Bryson was trained a lot to do at the gym that we're at, and... | |
| And the stick he used to get and stuff. | |
| I mean, it must be horrible to be their mum or their dad or whatever. | |
| Yeah. Yeah, not nice. | |
| Not nice at all. But as well, if you know them, which I do both of them, I couldn't meet a nicer guy than Richard Keogh. | |
| I've only got to meet him the last few years, three or four years. | |
| And everyone I speak to, they say, oh, we saw Richard Keogh in town. | |
| He saw his photo, this and that time. | |
| Oh, wow. Wow. | |
| Every person I speak to says good things. | |
| And Bryson... I mean, he can't be a nicer person. | |
| Every time he comes down to the gym, he's like, just... | |
| Yeah, just nice as price. | |
| Every time you ask for a shirt sign, he'll get it done, he'll do this, that. | |
| Just a lovely guy. And no one works harder on a pitch, either. | |
| No one works harder on a pitch than them two, to be fair, with a derby shirt on. | |
| No, no, they don't. Well, the stats we've got in Richard Kira, that season... | |
| I thought last season did very well last season. | |
| He played 64 games in total last season. | |
| I thought he did very well last season. I'll always give credit where it's due. | |
| For me, I'm not a huge fan of Richard Keir. | |
| I thought he did well last season. Because why? | |
| Because I just... I always think everything's quite desperate. | |
| You know, in terms of last minute challenges and stuff like that. | |
| Instead of just reading the game a little bit and maybe, you know, just stepping off. | |
| Because he's quite rabbit in headlights. | |
| And I think Derby need that calming influence. | |
| And I think that's where Tomori helped him last season. | |
| Because for a young lad, he was just calm and cool and collected. | |
| Anyone listening to America is going, I don't know what you're on about. | |
| They're footballers. Tomori's excellent. | |
| I mean, his first few games was a little bit shaky. | |
| Yeah. A little bit shaky. | |
| Which is to be, because he's a young man as well, because he's played. | |
| Shakir, you won't get a centre-half in this league, the Championship, that plays like he does. | |
| Why I like him and why I love him is because if he makes a mistake, 99% of the players will then, heads will drop and they won't continue to try and do what he does, but he doesn't stop. | |
| He still tries to get the ball and he's going to make mistakes because of the way he plays, but so many of the times when he runs out of the ball, he With the expectancy of players to run towards him, and he's still got that balance and everything to play. | |
| It only looks like a 12-yard ball, but it's a great skill. | |
| It's a great skill to have and to do, and I think he has been immense for Derby O'Dea. | |
| He put Marriott in for that winner at Leeds, didn't he? | |
| Yeah. Yeah, he did, yeah. | |
| Absolutely ballistic. I wonder who that was. | |
| Absolutely ballistic we did, didn't we? | |
| I wonder what that was. | |
| Probably the best game I've ever been involved in. | |
| The best. The feeling from that game was that was really our playoff final. | |
| Yeah. Just beating Leeds as Derby is amazing anyway. | |
| To do it in that manner when you've basically been beaten for three quarters of the game. | |
| And two games in the league being beaten twice. | |
| The one that mattered turned up. | |
| Yeah. Yeah. Where do you, to go back away from Derby and Richard Keogh, where do you see football going in terms of next 10-15 years? | |
| TV money, how that would change the game, or is it a bubble that's just going to go bang? | |
| Is it sustainable? | |
| I remember listening to Rodney Marsh saying one day on Gillette Soccer Saturday, imagine when there'll be a player on £100 a week. | |
| And he was saying it as if, like, we're going to have another move or something like that. | |
| Yeah, yeah, yeah. People are only 600 grand a week now. | |
| Well, bail could be, by the end of the week, a million grand, a million pound a week. | |
| A million pound a week. | |
| A million pound a week. A million pound a week. A million pound a week. | |
| I like that. I don't blame him by the way. | |
| I don't blame him by any sort of imagination. | |
| I understand completely why he would go there as well. | |
| Because I think that he suffers a little bit mentally as well. | |
| At 31 years old, I think he's won everything. | |
| He has won everything, but I don't think he's won the World Cup of course Premier Wales. | |
| He's never going to. No, he isn't. | |
| But over there, he's won an awful lot. | |
| So, you know, take your money and go and enjoy life a little while. | |
| Yeah. If you can enjoy it over in... | |
| In China, yeah, with the pressure off a little bit. | |
| Like, I saw you saying that. We were having this chat, weren't we, this morning, that you take it. | |
| Like you said earlier, football clubs are no loyalty to you now. | |
| So just take the money. Well, they don't want him anyway. | |
| They don't want him. And if someone didn't want me, and someone wanted to pay me almost twice as much, I'd go, all right, see you later then. | |
| Yeah, cool. It happens at football clubs nowadays. | |
| It doesn't sound an awful lot, but for a player like that who was probably their most expensive player on stage, or he was, and he's training with 23s or whatever, and I saw a clip yesterday that he was made to referee some training session or something like that, and then he interviewed him and he was saying, well, Gareth didn't play tonight because he told us he didn't want to play. | |
| Oh, right. Well, you know, he's probably fell out with him probably because he was told to referee in training. | |
| And you are made to do some Warnock was probably one of the best man managers I've ever known, but if you're on the wrong side of him, he was brutal. | |
| I've seen him at half-time come off and say to players, David Kelly. | |
| Remember David Kelly? He used to play for Wolves, a good 7-4 Sheffield United. | |
| Ned! Your career's over soon. | |
| Have a shower. That's it. | |
| You're done. Half time of the game. | |
| That's it. Your career's done. | |
| I mean, good grief. How brutal is that? | |
| I just told him his career was over there and then near Walnut. | |
| Absolutely brutal. What did you do? | |
| Just sell him? Done. He became his assistant manager. | |
| He came as assistant manager and did he go with Billy Davis, didn't he? | |
| So that Ned Kelly, he came to Dalby, he was assistant here for a bit. | |
| Ned, your career's over some, your legs are gone. | |
| Get your boots off, go in the shower. | |
| There's some great worn-out clips on YouTube in there. | |
| Right, shall I tell you about the story about Warner? | |
| Yeah, go on. We played Burnley. | |
| It's when Gaza was playing for Burnley. | |
| And we started the game. | |
| They were beating us 2-1. | |
| We came in at half-time. | |
| And there was always this rumour, this myth, that at Sheffield United, there was this little hole where the assistant manager would sit and listen to the team talk to the opposing team. | |
| And I thought, it can't be true. | |
| Anyway, we came in at half-time and getting beat 2-1. | |
| Warnock's marching around the changing rooms. | |
| You get Kevin Blackwell, his assistant manager, Blackie. | |
| Sends him out like that. | |
| And the way he's gone out, the ball goes, Warnock has his talk, the ball goes right there for off out. | |
| All lining up to go outside. | |
| Just before they go out, Kevin Blackwell gets thrown out this door. | |
| He's got a massive black eye. | |
| Sam Turner was the manager. | |
| I think his name was Sam Ellis as well. | |
| They found him in this little hole listening to their team talk. | |
| Smashed So it was true. | |
| It wasn't a myth. It was actually true. | |
| He had a little cookbook and he would do anything to win a game. | |
| Anything. Anything just to give him that extra 5 or 10%, mate, you would do. | |
| What's funny is I remember him actually really, really going off on one about Bielsa and watching the training. | |
| Spying on Derby. The irony of it. | |
| Oh, God. I've only told you off. | |
| Right. He was on TalkSpot saying that it was a disgrace. | |
| Hang on. Now I know he had spies in the wall. | |
| I remember when there was a manager, I don't know what his name was, he used to put sand in the corners of pitches. | |
| Because he played long balls, so then the ball would slow it down. | |
| They used to pee in your cups of tea at a half-time to not give you no hot water. | |
| It was king of the mind games. | |
| King of the mind games. | |
| Not that EP didn't seem, by the way. | |
| So when I said, how's the game different now? | |
| The worst thing I've ever seen when we got a tour of Old Trafford was that the magnetic board in the OHS room isn't magnetic. | |
| That's as bad as it gets now. You have to bring your own. | |
| That must be a real hardship for them. | |
| I do wonder, with the TV money though, for me, I think there's one more big payday, and that's when your Amazons and your streaming sites take over. | |
| Yeah, Facebook are talking about getting involved. | |
| Yeah, I think they'll be the next... | |
| Who is it? Facebook is what they're talking about getting involved in everything. | |
| Wow. But then where do you go from that? | |
| There's nowhere above that. | |
| Nowhere above that. It was BT coming in, wasn't it, that's giving it that bump again from Sky in the last decade. | |
| And then, like you say, once those big boys get on again... | |
| Yeah. Sky were the big one though, because I remember, I think ITV had the rights and it cost them about 5 million quid. | |
| And then, I think they tender the rights every... | |
| They used to tender the rights every three years. | |
| It's every five now, innit? And it's what? | |
| It's every five now, innit? Oh, is it? | |
| I think now, yeah. Well, it might have been five then, but yeah, ITV was, say, five million. | |
| I think it was about five, five and a half million. | |
| And then Sky came in, so this is about 92, 93, and it was like 380 million is what they paid. | |
| And it's like, what? | |
| How has that happened? Yeah. | |
| And that's... Let's keep going. | |
| So who's got the Champions League games at the moment? | |
| BT. BT had them last year. | |
| They paid 1.2 billion. | |
| Jesus Christ. Champions League game. | |
| 1.2 billion. For one competition. | |
| I don't get how they make any money out of that because I've got BT internet and you have BT sport for the first year and then at the end of that year you have to pay for it now and every time I've done that I've said I'll leave then. | |
| They've given me it free. They've had it four years for free now so they're not getting any money out of me and how many other people are doing that? | |
| Advertising. Yeah, I guess so. | |
| They'll go, this many people are watching this game. | |
| And also, what pubs pay for BT Sports and Sky is absolutely astronomical. | |
| And if you get caught, because our mate that runs the Simeon Arms on the Isle of Wight, Jamie, who owned it before him, He just, well, I ain't paying that because that's just mad. | |
| My pub's not big enough to warrant that kind of money. | |
| It's thousands of pounds a month. Really? | |
| Yeah, thousands. A month. | |
| It was thousands then. You're talking five or six years ago. | |
| And the rest. So he went, do you know what? | |
| Sod it. I'll just wire it down from upstairs because I've got Sky in my house. | |
| So he wired it down, and they send little people out every now and then. | |
| And someone came out, and obviously there's not a beer glass in the corner. | |
| And that's why the beer glass is there. | |
| When you go to the pub, there'll be a beer glass in the bottom right corner. | |
| And the fines, I mean... | |
| Yeah, extraordinary. He had a few quid, fortunately, but nearly did it. | |
| Wow. Yeah. So they make all the money off that. | |
| Yeah, but it's got to end at some point. | |
| Yeah, exactly. But I think one more payday. | |
| And then I think... When that payday stopped, clubs are still going to be wanting to outdo each other. | |
| And they're still going to be wanting to pay more. | |
| Well, I'll come to you, but you have to pay me more. | |
| And so then that's when you're going to find clubs going bankrupt and disappearing. | |
| And the only people that affects is the fans. | |
| Yeah, it is. I mean, look at Bolton at the moment. | |
| But the players would all just leave and go to other clubs and carry on. | |
| It's the fans that have lost the football club. | |
| Yeah, it is. And it's not like they're going to go... | |
| Oh, I've got to start following Burnley then. | |
| Because it doesn't work like that, does it? Well, it certainly wouldn't do with a football fan, neither would it, because they're so territorial, aren't they? | |
| Yeah, yeah. I have trouble understanding a football fan, if I'm completely honest. | |
| Right. Being a player, I really do. | |
| Until I'd stopped playing, and then you were actually involved in the crowd more then. | |
| So I understand it a little bit more now, but... | |
| Going back to what you just said, I mean, imagine telling a Bolton fan, no, we're going to support Burnley. | |
| Yeah. Grief. No chance. | |
| It just wouldn't happen, would it? It's caveman. | |
| It's in our DNA. Yeah, it is, yeah. | |
| That tribal thing, isn't it? It is, yeah. | |
| It's territorial. Territorial for certain. | |
| I mean, some of the comments you hear and read and... | |
| I mean, dear, mate... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| It's tribal, isn't it? | |
| It is literally going back to tribal. | |
| I've followed Derby for years when I lived on the Isle of Wight and I normally went to away games in the south or London. | |
| I'd sort of go Redding, Watford and then I was kind of my cut off until I had friends here and then I'd come up to Derby and I'd end up obviously moving there. | |
| And you'd just walk into pubs in different places. | |
| Naive little idiot me, I'd keep my Derby shirt on. | |
| And all other Derby fans have seen me coming in and they go, you know... | |
| My man will lend you a jacket, just put that on, you know, because you get your head kicked in. | |
| You're like, I'm just stood in a t-shirt. | |
| I've got a second thing to anyone. That's not the point. | |
| You're not the right tribal colour. | |
| It's only like the Bloods and the Crips, isn't it? | |
| Just wearing your colours. Yeah, exactly. | |
| You haven't got any different postcodes and things like that. | |
| But, you know, young you, why would you think that? | |
| Exactly, that's it. I'm like, come on, Joe. | |
| She's a young girl, do you know what I mean? | |
| She's not in some gown or something like that. | |
| She's supporting her football team. | |
| Why would she think that anyone's going to be abusive to her just because she's wearing a certain colour top? | |
| But they would. Yeah, they would. | |
| I mean, for me, I love the banter side of it. | |
| So I remember walking into one place and I had a Derby shirt on in Portsmouth, actually, and this fellow just went into a fancy dress. | |
| Little bits of banter like that, like, you know, you're just taking the mick, but I don't feel threatened by it. | |
| We're just having a bit of a joke, and that's fine. | |
| Some people take it so seriously. | |
| They take it so seriously. When I started here... | |
| Because I'm obviously from Newark and Nottingham. | |
| All my friends are Forest fans. | |
| For two years didn't speak to me. | |
| For two years. | |
| Again, that goes back to the I can't understand football fans. | |
| What do you mean? For two years? | |
| Yeah. But what makes no sense to me with that is the most obsessive, insane football fans or sport fans generally are in America, in North America. | |
| I mean, they literally would sell their child if their team can win a Super Bowl. | |
| But they all sit next to each other and have a pint and they don't fight. | |
| It's the second time you've said exactly what I was going to say. | |
| Really? Sorry mate. | |
| I think I like. But it's weird isn't it? | |
| Because I think America is like USA sport, woohoo! | |
| But they just sit next to each other, not bothered. | |
| When we went to watch the Rangers against the New Jersey Devils, ice hockey. | |
| Big rival, that's like Derby Forest now. | |
| There was a couple, one was a Rangers fan, one was a Devils fan, the lad was a Devils fan. | |
| When Rangers went 4-2 up, she literally just got up and screamed in his face. | |
| Really? You're going to have a round later. | |
| Was that alcohol at those games? | |
| Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Stand in the crowd as well. | |
| $10 a pint. And the rest. | |
| But... Yes, it is a lot more than that. | |
| It is, yeah. But that doesn't make sense to me. | |
| I know. Do you know what I mean? | |
| Because they're so obsessive and, like I say, USA. But... | |
| Yeah. They'd just get on at the... | |
| And it'd be lovely if we could do that at football. | |
| Yeah, we've so long lived at England at this reputation, didn't it? | |
| Football, hooliganism, it really kind of stemmed to me, didn't it? | |
| Yeah. Eastern Europe have kind of taken over from us in that respect now. | |
| Yeah, they are. Well, you're wearing a Sparta shirt. | |
| When we go to Sparta games, which you do a couple of times a year, they're ultra flags, so they're absolutely... | |
| They're all masks and all that. | |
| They've all got English flags on them. | |
| Really? Because it's where hooligans start. | |
| It's very odd. It's a birthplace, isn't it? | |
| Yeah, it is. It's something we pride of, the way. | |
| No, exactly. But it comes in a time when the economy was on its backside. | |
| And I do wonder if we do hit this other recession, another recession that people keep talking about, if we're going to go back to that time. | |
| It's an outlet. It is an outlet, yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
| Well, if we hit a recession, you'll see civil unrest, that's for sure. | |
| Oh, absolutely, yeah. Do you know what I mean? | |
| So, whatever, you want to say it's footballism, whatever, there'll be civil unrest either way. | |
| Yeah. I don't see the world becoming a better place very quickly. | |
| No, I don't, I don't. It's only going to get worse, that's for sure. | |
| Yeah. I remember talking to someone years ago and they were talking about an analogy. | |
| It was one of Dad's friends and he was saying that he thinks it'll be like a plate. | |
| So if you let a plate go like that on the table, it does that for a bit. | |
| And then before it stops and calms, it goes mental. | |
| That's what I think will happen. | |
| It'll be like that. What a great analogy. | |
| I'm sure it was one of Dad's mates. | |
| It might have been Dad, actually. | |
| Dad's probably listening to this thinking, you know, that it was me. | |
| But it's true. I think that's about right. | |
| It would just go crazy for a bit and then hopefully a new beginner. | |
| Yeah, let's hope so. | |
| Yeah, absolutely. That'll do us. | |
| We've rambled on for ages. We've taken a lot of your time. | |
| That's no problem, mate. It's been wicked, haven't you? | |
| It's been very warm, but it's been very enjoyable. | |
| Yeah, it is very hot, yeah. | |
| I was going to sign off for one more question. | |
| If you had two minutes with a young player, what would be the biggest bit of advice you'd give a 15-year-old player now at a professional club? | |
| Oh, what a great question. | |
| A 15-year-old player? | |
| Well done, Jake. That's a great question. | |
| I would ask him and I would tell him to be as transparent as he can. | |
| Never be scared to ask for help. | |
| Never ever be scared to ask for help. | |
| Again it goes, when I was a kid and I saw the staff and everyone else, I always saw them as authorities so I never wanted to go to them. | |
| And nowadays I do think that football clubs... | |
| They have welfare officers and people like that in football clubs. | |
| They should have, and this isn't blowing my trumpet, they should have people like me in. | |
| They really should because I've been through it and I've come through it and there's still, there isn't enough that have done that to go back into football clubs and I need to be there to be guiding them through. | |
| So what do they need to do? They just need to be transparent. | |
| If football clubs, and this is going away from your point, I'll come back to it. | |
| Football clubs really need to see that. | |
| To get players playing at their best, to get players playing at their very best, they need to be mentally, physically and spiritually 100%. | |
| But when they've got problems like they've got, and they haven't got the right people in to speak to these guys, they're not going to get 100%, so their commodity will not grow. | |
| So footballers need to see that having someone in will make that commodity grow. | |
| So it helps, everyone's a winner. | |
| The young player goes in happy every single day. | |
| His stack grows as well. | |
| He becomes worth 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. | |
| I don't want to mention names. | |
| There's a player at Derby that I was meeting and speaking to. | |
| A great lad. And he actually got sold. | |
| So you'll probably guess who he is. | |
| But I was helping him. | |
| A lovely, lovely kid. | |
| Didn't have any problems really. He just wanted to meet and have a chat. | |
| And all it was was just talking. | |
| because you never know what home life these kids have got. | |
| Just because they're young lad, one thinks, oh, their home life's great, | |
| but your home life might be great, but there might be things that you don't want to go back | |
| and talk to your mum and dad about, or certainly when you're 16, 17, 18, you don't want to know. | |
| You want to speak to someone who's going to sit there and just kind of be cool and just listen, | |
| and that's what it is about, just listening. | |
| So it's fine for a 15-year-old kid, it's very difficult because they're very impressionable. | |
| There's more Do you know what I mean? | |
| There's so much going on, so as a 50-year-old kid, what would I say? | |
| I'd say, be transparent and don't be scared to ask questions. | |
| Just don't be scared to ask for help. | |
| And that goes to, that's just the older players as well. | |
| We think because we're men, we can't talk. | |
| We can't talk. And I had a problem for years and years. | |
| I was a mute. Didn't know how to talk. | |
| Couldn't talk. My social skills were awful. | |
| Now I get paid at a football club to talk. | |
| And I knew I had to overcome my fear. | |
| I overcame it when I was 38. | |
| And I knew I did my first talk. | |
| I went to speak. And I was sick three times. | |
| I went to the next talk. | |
| I was sick again. And I kept doing it. | |
| I kept doing it because I'm stubborn. And I thought, I've got to be sure I'm going to do one talk so I'm not sick. | |
| And about the fourth or fifth one, I wasn't sick. | |
| and then continue and I'm still doing it. | |
| So it's about overcoming your fears as well. | |
| So for 15 year olds, just don't be impressionable, just don't be scared to ask for help. | |
| That's all I can say. | |
| Perfect. That's an amazing way to end. | |
| Lovely. Thanks for joining us. | |
| No problem. It's been an absolute pleasure, guys. | |
| Pleasure. Cool. | |
| Right, you've been listening to the Non-Binary Elephant Podcast. | |
| I've been Jamie Icke. I've been Gareth Icke. | |
| We will see you very soon. See you later. |
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