Unknown Origin: Bret Weinstein Speaks with Jeremy Rys on the Darkhorse Podcast
Bret Speaks with Jeremy Rys on the topic of alien life, contact, and how to come at this topic analytically with proper care. Find Jeremy at his website: https://alienscientist.com/Find Jeremy on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/alienscientist ***** Find Bret Weinstein on Twitter: @BretWeinstein, and on Patreon. Please subscribe to this channel for more long form content like this, and subscribe to the clips channel @DarkHorse Podcast Clips for short clips of all our...
You know, one of the only cases from history that I think you can't explain with, you know, Chinese lanterns or some other types of misidentification would be like the 1561 Nuremberg case where they literally thought they saw a sky battle take place.
You have to wonder if there's like...
What would have happened over history if, say, the Roman army found something like this?
Maybe there is a Star Wars type battles that have happened.
And some of that stuff is debris that's floating around.
It's asteroids.
Maybe some of that stuff's fallen to Earth and landed.
And what would have happened over history if, say, the Roman army found something like this?
Where do you think it would be today and where it would have ended up? - Hey folks, welcome to the Dark Horse Podcast.
I have the distinct pleasure of sitting this afternoon with Jeremy Riss, also known as Alien Scientist.
He is perhaps a bit obscure to most of you.
I have been following his work for years.
I initially encountered him in the landscape of what are colloquially known as conspiracy theories and what set Jeremy, a part, was his scientific approach.
For every conspiracy theory that he believed in, he seemed to debunk a dozen.
And I know that conspiracies exist.
I am pleased to find anybody who deploys a proper scientific toolkit in sorting the wheat from the chaff.
And so in any case, I've been watching him from afar.
More recently, I've been paying attention to his work on so-called UAPs, or UFOs, as those of us who have been watching this space for years formerly called them.
And I've invited him on Dark Horse to talk to us primarily about the UAP question.
Are we being visited by extraterrestrials?
Have we been in the past?
Should we expect some sort of contact between us and them in the future?
So, Jeremy, without further ado, welcome to Dark Horse.
Thanks for having me, Brett.
I'm a big fan of the podcast.
Awesome.
So, I'm not sure quite where to start here.
I will say most of my audience is probably not terribly familiar with the UAP question.
They've, of course, read stories in the mainstream press and, like me, don't know exactly what to think about them.
I'm certainly Cautious, and the reason I haven't ventured down this road very far, is that so far what I've seen has the feel of a PSYOP to me.
This feels terrestrial in origin, which does not mean that I don't believe That there are extraterrestrials with advanced technology in the universe.
In fact, evolutionarily speaking, the fact that we exist suggests the likelihood is very high that there are many other such civilizations.
But as for whether or not they've been to Earth, I'm a skeptic and I thought you'd be the guy to help us sort it out.
It's an interesting question when you're dealing with, you know, when we study things in nature we tend to use blinds and as Many scientists who are studying this phenomenon has pointed out, how do you study something that's studying you and doesn't want you to study it?
And this perhaps technologically thousands of years more advanced, maybe it's, you know, you know, so it uses invisibility cloaking and stealth technology that's way beyond what we have.
So, this is a good question about whether they exist or not, and whether what we're seeing out there is actually them, because if it is them, then they obviously want to be seen.
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Yeah, I was gonna say exactly that.
To the extent that the modern UAP version of whatever is taking place is happening, those entities want to be seen.
Whether they're terrestrial or extraterrestrial, whatever cloaking they have is obviously not working because we have a large number of highly credible reports.
People have certainly seen something.
Yeah, there's a number of cases.
The Battle of Los Angeles, they fired anti-gun turrets, anti-aircraft guns at this thing for hours.
Obviously, there was something there.
Some people suggest it was an early form of this projection technology that they were using multiple spotlights as well.
It was in the Hollywood Hills in California, so they had a lot of these spotlights that they'd shine in the sky back then.
And so they had them all pointed up at this object, and they feel like somehow that could have created a hologram effect.
And that's indeed how, I believe, they created the Tupac hologram on the stage.
They used a smoke machine and three projectors to triangulate the imaging.
Sorry, I'm going to keep slowing you down because I really want to understand this.
My impression in the modern version of the UAP question, the thing that stands out to me most is that you have what appear to be objects, they appear to be moving through the atmosphere, At speeds that are improbable without an apparent means of propulsion, which could of course just mean they use some other kind of propulsion.
But the thing that really doesn't sit well with me is that they don't appear to make a tremendous noise, that the displacement of air is, you know, who knows, aliens could have technology that would cause the air displacement to be neutralized in some way that we can't understand.
But if they're not bothering to cloak themselves visually, it's a little hard to understand why they would be doing that.
And I'm even doubtful that it could be done that effectively.
Or whether it's being done by them at all, or whether these things are man-made altogether.
And that's one thing that's missing from a lot of the mainstream conversation is the technology side of this.
If you do get the technology side of this, you ask anyone in any UFO conference how UFOs fly, and your answer is going to be element 115.
And it almost seems like they've poisoned the well on the scientific physics side of this.
Anyone in the physics community that wants to get into UFOs is sort of hit with this, you know, oh, God, this is just not something I even want to associate myself with scientifically or academically.
Whereas if you really get into the science, like in those OSAP, DIRD reports, that's the defense intelligence reference documents, you can search that on Black Vault and come up with some of those files.
You get into the real cool stuff like metallic glasses, for example, which have electronics.
Elasticity and strength beyond, you know, carbon fiber, beyond steel and other things.
And you talk about metamaterials, which are used in cloaking devices and invisibility shields, and also apparently in some of these warp drive skins, allegedly in the terahertz range.
Interesting stuff you find and then you get I was looking into terahertz and what scientists were working on terahertz and looked up classified terahertz and found Oh, here's a guy that was working at Wright State University right next to Ray Patterson who brought a bunch of you know work Home with him and got a year in prison for it because it was classified Related to whatever he was doing that the US Air Force was apparently, you know
funding or interested in because they're the ones who showed up and busted them.
So you find interesting cases like that, which I kind of, I don't think anyone was reporting on that story.
It was out there in the news and they had broken it.
The first news report actually was from, you know, Fairbourn, Ohio.
And it was, it said that they busted the guy for a marijuana grow.
And then like the story changed.
It wasn't really marijuana plants.
It was classified documents, and that was just kind of to throw people off the trail.
But the real story came out.
I picked it up, and I don't know if anyone else picked it up or really talked about it, but I thought that was an interesting connection because it kind of verified, well, at least they're doing classified research related to this.
Maybe it was a setup or a plant, but to get a guy to do a year in jail, that's kind of hard for a PSYOP.
Well, I mean, yes and no.
Look, it's not hard to come up with a proof of concept of how you might get somebody willing to spend a year in jail.
Either they've got something on them and it was a better deal than he might have had.
Or, you know, obviously most people will have their price.
And anyway, it's not hard to imagine how it could be done.
I'm not saying it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just go look at look down.
It's hard to, you know, look down the conspiracy rabbit hole sideways at some of this stuff.
Can I back you up a bit, though?
There's something that you breezed by there that I think is important for us to discuss.
You just feel free to correct me wherever I've got this wrong.
No, slow me down because I go off on this stuff.
I've been doing it way too long.
Yeah, you're in deep.
With respect to things like propulsion technology.
A, I should say, my brother Eric has obviously been active in this discussion, and one of the things that he points to is that the crossing of large distances, which is the number one obstacle presumably to any advanced civilization getting here, might actually not really be about propulsion at all.
That it might be about space and time not functioning in the way that we have come to understand them, and that it might be possible to cross large distances without actually crossing them.
And this is necessary, I'll just point out.
That our galaxy itself is a hundred thousand light years wide.
Light, which we understand to be traveling at the fastest speed possible, takes a hundred thousand years to get just simply across the Milky Way, let alone to anywhere else.
And, you know, so that means that, you know, light that we are seeing from the other side of the galaxy started its journey 90,000 years before humans started farming, right?
How long did it take the light to get there from the photons perspective?
Well, an interesting question and believe me, we are almost immediately out of my depth Mathematically and physically I you know to be a Misconception of it and the idea is that if you can focus a number of your photons on another point in space-time Is from the photons perspective is that those points are entangled and the pilot wave?
interpretation of the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics says that that those waves travel forward and back in time and And then then decide which way to go So we are out of my depth, but let's just say the
We can black box the question of how an alien intelligence might have found itself in proximity to Earth, and we can put aside skepticism with respect to whether or not they could be here at all, because there may or may not be mechanisms for crossing those large different distances on timescales that sound reasonable to us.
And if they exist, then the things that are seen here on the Earth side of that journey Are not likely, well again out of my depth, but are not likely to be whatever it is that crossed those large distances.
They would be local transportation?
Is that fair or am I just...
Yeah, I think within an atmosphere, maybe the vast distances of space, if there's nothing in between, they might be able to do some type of a warp drive where you are able to entangle to another point in space-time and then shrink the distance between using quantum entanglement.
But the, for at least short distances, there's plenty of other technologies that, you know, some of the stuff was discovered, the Biefeld-Brown effect discovered in 1928 and was classified for 90, you know, 80 years.
2008, Obama declassified it along with a whole bunch of other stuff and it, you know, very quietly.
Turns out the B2 Spirit Bomber uses a version of this where they positively charge the front leading edge of the wing and negatively charge the exhaust stream, and it helps with lift and propulsion as well as the radar signature and invisibility of the craft.
But this has been used for a number of years in programs including by Ames Research Facilities in the 40s when Brown was trying to sell this idea to the military and they told him he was crazy and that his idea, there was nothing to it.
But meanwhile, Ames went and stole the idea and was using it in the X1 to positively charge that nose cone, that needle on the front end of the wingtips and the nose cone.
And when they positively charged that, it created this like ion cloud, which would deflect the bow shock on the front end of the craft.
So when it went supersonic, it wouldn't rip apart.
And it was a key component of how they broke the sound barrier, and it was Brown's technology.
And then Brown came back again in the 50s, 1956, with Andrew Bonson in North Carolina with Bonson Labs.
So, you have Bonson bringing Brown in, and a number of other researchers came and visited, including Bryce and Cecil Dewitt from the nearby University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, the husband and wife team that your brother talks about on Joe Rogan and stuff.
So, there's a number of these cross-pollinations, but John Lear, actually John Lear Sr., Well, let's figure out how to address this.
the slides that's uh you know john lear's dad who's the guy that the cia pilot who broke the story at area 51 and basically was the i don't know he's like the grandfather of the bob lazar legend in my opinion which that's a whole nother rabbit hole
well let's figure out how to address this so so far i think what we've concluded is um there are superficial limits to travel over long There's lots of reason to wonder if there might not be mechanisms that would bypass those limits.
So, could there be an alien intelligence visiting our planet?
There could be.
We can't rule it out.
If there is, it is presumably either never was and it's recently arrived or is no longer interested in completely disguising its presence.
So the question of the blind is, the blind is lifted if what we are seeing that is being described as UAPs are in fact related to something extraterrestrial.
I, and you tell me if you share this, but I am extremely skeptical of direct observations of these very rapidly moving apparent aircraft within or craft within the atmosphere in large measure because they do not create
The sonic booms, for example, that one would expect when something moves faster than the speed of sound within an atmosphere as a result of its impact on the displacement of air.
And what wouldn't do that is a projection.
Let's just say from above, maybe.
If you had something projecting onto particles in the atmosphere, you know, water particles, let's say.
There's also laser-induced plasma effect, proton beam that they can use, anything that can excite.
They cross the beams, and the point the beams cross, there's enough energy there where it actually can create like a plasma in the air.
And the plasma would allow you to project something, is that the idea?
So there's, you can project, you can also dot matrix project like 3D images by patterning where the dots, where the dots cross in the air.
Okay, so to connect the dots for viewers and listeners, the idea is it is very technologically difficult to imagine craft that that can move through the atmosphere at incredible speeds, Even more difficult to imagine craft that can do that without creating sonic booms.
What makes this Much more tractable from both the perspective of the speed at which things travel and their failure to create the usual sonic consequences of a craft moving through the air would be something like Laser pointer right if you put a laser pointer and you put the dot on the ground for your cat.
There's no Meaningful limit to how quickly you can move it across the floor because a tiny movement of your fingers moves the thing feet and so were somebody interested in projecting something that appeared to be an object on to something like plasma or water particles in the atmosphere or whatever it was and They could then move it incredibly rapidly, and the prediction of that hypothesis would be that it would not have sonic consequences.
Yeah, you would not have a sonic boom with that, and for the audience, if they want to look more into this, the technical term the military uses is ECCM, or Electronic Counter Countermeasure, and the term that you can look up to find the video on it is Pentagon
talking plasma grenade or talking Pentagon talking plasma balls should find a video on it.
You can find some of those declassified videos on it.
And some of these declassified videos that other people are finding through FOIA are going back to some of these companies from, you know, 20 years ago, you know, or longer than they may have had this.
So, you know, You got to think in the 1960s when they were developing lasers at Q Division, which was a lot of the stuff that they did at Q Division still classified.
What would be the first thing you did, you would do as a scientist after you built two lasers?
Cross the beam!
Okay, so let's now talk about things that don't fit this model, okay?
I can think of a couple.
You will know more if they exist.
One is radar signatures.
And the other is I've seen one video which I have to say at the level of The deep fakes of other things that I've seen I can think of no obstacle you couldn't No obstacle to faking this at a video level, but I've seen one instance where a craft appeared to have an impact on the water that it was traveling
Slightly above now that is not predicted as far as I know by moving the equivalent of lasers project images It could be a missile and certain the advanced missiles that they're building now including torpedoes employ a new type of technology called super cavitation and the way that they do this is through a directed energy
Actually, that they use like a focused maser that focuses a microwave that heats up air or water in a pocket at a target, at a focal point, a couple feet or inches, however long in front, whatever they've calculated is the optimal focal point, but in front of the nose cone of the craft.
And when they direct that energy there, It basically super cavitates the air or water in front of it, so it creates a vacuum for the missile.
It pulls the missile forward.
Huh?
It pulls the missile forward.
Yeah, it can pull the missile forward, but it also eliminates the sonic boom because it's crap.
I don't know that it makes a noise still, but it's not quite as loud as a sonic boom because of how it's eliminating the air, so the air doesn't It doesn't tear through the air and create the same turbulence effects afterwards.
I see.
So if these were objects moving at high rates through the atmosphere, is it possible the sonic boom could be cancelled?
If you had this type of super-cavitating technology with these lasers.
NASA started developing this in the 1980s out of Rensselaer Polytech Institute under a guy named Dr. Lake Marabu, L-E-I-K-M-Y-R-A-B-O, and he was the head scientist on it.
There's a number of other patents you can look up, if you look up blasting air in front of hypersonic missiles.
Got it.
That will give you an article that you can find all the patents and stuff on.
Okay, so I think where we are is there's a lot about the modern observations of UAPs that is most easily explained as projections that can move at an arbitrary velocity without displacing air.
There are possibilities for how the natural consequences in air might be partially or completely cancelled.
So far, I haven't heard anything, I mean, you know, my cynical take as a... Can I add a couple more things?
Sure.
For the people to, they can look up, I interviewed a guy named T.D.
Barnes, that's Theodore Barnes, he's the head of special projects at Area 51 for about 40 years, he worked out there.
And he seems to think that all these pilots are seeing is, and I asked him this in the interview twice, he says that they're seeing our spoofing technology.
It's our lasers and our ECCMs and these capabilities that we have.
What's an ECCM?
That's the electronic counter counter measure.
In an interview also on the drive, he talks about Project Nemesis and Project Palladium, which is interesting because Project Palladium was a system of these balloons with radar reflectors inside.
So they were actually these pilots that were reported seeing a cube inside of a sphere It's actually not a cube, it's actually an octagon, an octahedron inside of the sphere.
But the octahedron inside the sphere is in the patent from Project Palladium, and they go back to like 1947, the patents on these things.
They've been building these, and they're radar reflectors, and the radar reflectors are what is called DRFM technology.
That's digital radio frequency memory.
Now, that's similar to what the Stingray is that the FBI uses to eavesdrop on people's cell phones.
It basically takes the digital radio frequency signal from your cell phone, copies it, and then pretends to be – or from the cell tower and then beams it and pretends to be the cell tower by copying it.
The briefcase that they put somewhere that allows them to intercept your transmissions without your knowledge.
It doesn't need to be a briefcase.
They can put it inside of a rock now.
Oh, a rock.
Cool.
Yeah.
I will tell you, if they are listening, they got to up their fucking game because my cell phone malfunctions at a rate that is unnatural.
And so if you're going to invade my privacy, at least do it with quality tech so you don't disturb my ability to live a life.
That's just my editorial comment on that front.
All right.
I disrupted your flow here.
No, that's fine, man.
I was pretty much done after the balloons.
A lot of this is technology that people aren't aware of, and if they do the research, they're like, holy crap, you could literally fake all this stuff.
But then the UFO people get all mad at me because they're like, well, you're just like Every UFO case now, you can just explain it away in terms of our technology.
So what if aliens really do show up and you're just over here saying it's laser beams and our advanced drones that have hypersonic capabilities?
Well, I would push back on those people because, A, We are dealing with a scenario in which if those things that people are observing are aliens who wish to be observed, they can settle the question any day they want to.
Right?
Right.
So you're either dealing with the aliens are ineffectively hiding themselves from us, Or, you're dealing with aliens who can settle the question.
As far as the radar signatures, that's a more interesting answer than I was expecting.
My sense was, you know, if the people who are doing the projecting, maybe from space, of what seem to be objects moving at improbable speeds without propulsion mechanisms through our atmosphere, want to seed something into a radar that is not a natural consequence of the radar detecting something in the world, they could presumably do that too.
But what you have proposed is that there are technologies which allow the projection of a phony radar signal, which makes perfect sense.
I will tell you, in my graduate work, I was a bat biologist.
I worked on echolocating bats.
I did not work on echolocation, but nonetheless, my bats were echolocators.
And there's always a question about whether or not an animal that has this capacity can Put a signature in front of another animal, right?
Like, how sophisticated is this?
And maybe in the case of bats, it's unlikely.
Maybe it'd be more likely in the case of something like, you know, dolphins.
And, you know, to be honest, I don't know that there's any evidence that they can, but the possibility of it is something that's been on people's minds for many decades.
Right, well we have acoustic metamaterials, so what if there's like a moth that has a metamaterial of hairs or cilia on the back of its, you know...
The abdomen that reflects the bat's radar sonar signals or something.
Well, it's actually very similar to, you know, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I used to lecture on this.
The paint that is used on the stealth bombers and fighters is an extremely fragile material for exactly the same reason that moths are covered in this soft stuff, which is radar absorbing.
And so, you know, there's all sorts of tricks that the stealth technology uses.
One of them is that instead of being rounded, where there's always a tangent facing the radar source, the, you know, because the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection, if you make a faceted aircraft, then if you aim a beam of something at it, it tends to reflect off in a non-useful direction, right?
But in addition, you cover the thing with something that is absorbent, and much less of the energy gets reflected back at all.
So, once again, we have reproduced an insight that selection built into creatures before we knew anything about it.
Right, and it's also responsible for the chitin on various uh scarab beetles because there's ones that are silver there's ones that are emerald green there's ones that are gold um and that is all just a change of the permeability and permittivity of the of the chitin um manifolds and as a metamaterial essentially i did not i did not know that yeah it's it's super interesting
There's also a whole theory that the metamaterials can be used for anti-gravity, so we have people that are experimenting with those as well.
I don't really understand how anybody could be anti-gravity.
No one's got anything to show.
We've tried 50, we've had 70 plus years of everything that the government's tried, a lot of the declassified stuff going back to the, you know, the 50s with Bonson Labs and Bifeld-Brown effect all the way to the, you know, 80s with David Alzafan and Boeing and 80s with David Alzafan and Boeing and this idea that spin-tronics or NMR would have something to do with it.
But that actually started in 1946 with the discovery of nuclear magnetic resonance with Edward Mills Purcell, who actually headed the CIA's Project Rainbow, which was the CIA's study into that exact, they have the equation for radar reflection.
And they said, how can we minimize, you know, the radar return signal from these things?
Or how can we use...
The other solution was the DRFM technology that copies the radar signal and sends the spoof signal back with the data that they want.
And that's more complicated.
And it's interesting because that was developed at a place called Site 4 out at Tonopah Test Range during the 1980s is where they did all that.
They had a big mock-up of the Soviet radar.
They rebuilt the Soviet radar system with their exact frequencies and everything and then figured out how to counter it.
And that's the kind of stuff that they would do out there.
And it's interesting that it was at a place called Site 4 because the only other place we found was a Site 4 where they built the B-2 Spirit bomber at Plant 42 in Palmdale, which is in the whole Site 4 that Bob Lazar talked about.
I've never found any evidence for anything at Papoose Lake In fact, it's a radioactive wasteland, and it floods in the wet season.
It seems like a whole big, deliberate misdirection that is going on in the mainstream, especially with what happened on Joe Rogan.
um, the Joe Rogan podcasts where, where they had, uh, he, he got really sucked into that whole Bob Lazar rabbit hole and never got, never seemed to get out of it.
Yeah.
Well, um, you know, uh, I find Joe an extremely reasonable guy.
And you know, he says flat out that he desperately wants the alien story to be true and that that clouds his judgment.
I must say, I also desperately want it to be true because Not only would I be beyond fascinated as a biologist to have any insight into what life looks like elsewhere in the universe, but I also, as a humanitarian, believe that we are in Very deep trouble with our technology and our rate of technological change, and... It would be a godsend, yeah, if we could get a piece of something, you know?
Well, if we could just, you know, to the extent that some alien race had found its way to Earth...
That means they've probably solved the basic game theoretic puzzles that seem to be putting us in such great danger.
And if they, you know, let's put it this way.
I'm willing to run the risk of an alien race that is not favorable towards Earthlings.
I find that unlikely.
I think it's very unlikely that there would be anything to take from us that would be worth
Having they might be fascinated by us as another example of life and they might be interested in You know bringing us in on some of the deeper secrets of the universe so that we might survive the next 150 years I'm willing to take the risk of any of those possibilities because frankly the danger we pose to ourself is now ourselves is now so great that
That, while I'm not giving up on us, I do think our best hope would be somebody who's figured out these answers, letting us in on them.
It's interesting.
I want to mention a couple things that relate to this, and I want to start with one of the last things that Bob Lazar said.
He changed his story, actually.
He never said this before at the Joe Rogan Podcast.
I believe it was on where he said.
That he believes now that these things, if there's a hangar full of them, he thinks that they were from an archaeological find, that they were dug up.
I thought that was kind of interesting because one of the only cases from history that I think you can't explain with Chinese lanterns or some other types of misidentification would be like the 1561 Nuremberg case where they literally thought they saw a sky battle take place.
You have to wonder.
Type 3 and 2 civilizations out there.
Maybe there is a Star Wars type battles that have happened and, you know, some of that stuff is debris that's floating around.
It's asteroids.
Maybe some of that stuff's fallen to Earth and landed.
What would have happened over history if, say, you know, the Roman army found something like this?
Where do you think it would be today and where it would have ended up?
It would have been deemed a holy relic, and it would have been brought back to the church, and it would have been locked away in the Vatican basement vaults for eternity, and that's where it would be today.
Yeah, it's funny, you know, this is almost the case with dinosaurs, right?
Right!
That material's been near the surface, you know, found presumably by many people over the course of history and prehistory, but nobody knew what to make of it, right?
The discovery that, you know, what those creatures actually were is relatively recent.
And so, yeah, you could imagine all kinds of misfiling of materials that made no sense to the people who encountered them because, frankly, they didn't even know where they lived in the universe at the time.
Yeah, certainly the prevalence of dinosaur bones in the geological record is something that shows up a lot more than alien debris or spaceship parts from another galaxy or anything like that.
It doesn't exist as far as we know.
And if it did, it's interesting that I don't know where that material will be today, but there's a couple people that claim to have pieces of this stuff.
Gary Nolan, for one, and others.
It would be nanotechnology, I would assume, of sophistication that would be beyond anything that we know.
Again, I think that the coolest things I've seen is the idea of metamaterials and quasicrystals and the whole idea of photonic crystals and photonic circuits that we're getting to a point with our computer chips and our computer technology that we're going to be able to build, you know, 5D memory crystals and things that our data storage capability is going to go through the roof and our computational power usage and also CPU size is going to
Just be exponentially increased with the next gen, once we make that leap from electronics to spintronic photonic devices.
You mean CPU capacity will be increased?
Just the power usage that we have to use, because now you're pushing photons around, which take a fraction of the energy it costs to push electrons around.
They don't produce nearly as much heat waste.
You know, the resistance inside these, you know, photonic cavities in computer circuits would be astronomically lower than, you know, the copper wiring and other... Oh yeah.
Photons are light as hell.
Yeah.
That was a terrible pun.
Hopefully you'll forgive me and continue the conversation.
But okay, so let me just figure out where you live on this topic.
All right.
You believe that alien races are plausible.
The Drake equation, it's almost certain that we're not alone, I would say.
I would agree.
That technologies which might allow us to bend space or to utilize entanglement in some way Suggest that there probably isn't an actual bar to great civilizations separated by what seem to be large distances.
Yes, but we also have to believe we have to like push this boundary, man.
This is our civilization and our survival depends on it.
Sure, but despite the fact that you believe those things, it sounds to me like what you've said is you don't believe You believe that this is more likely a PSYOP than an actual visitation that we are?
Well, it'll be the first time that they've done something like this.
I mean, you look back to 1988 with UFO TV Live, they had this whole broadcast caught with the aviary it was called where they brought out all these guys and cloak in cloak and dagger and didn't show their faces and had voice mods on them and we of course we know all their names today and they've been associated with you know distant ufo disinformation and stuff like that um one of the guys is actually owl from the aviaries was how put off
which is interesting and how put off does have a history with psychological warfare operations he did that whole stint with the men at stare at goats um with albert stubble being and those guys that they um and And the book Psi Spies by Jim Mars, I read all about it.
So he's got some interesting history of the stuff he did at SRI International, but he's also got some interesting physics and the whole idea of this polarizable vacuum approach to general relativity where if you change the permeability and permittivity of free space in between things, then you can warp those distances but he's also got some interesting physics and the whole idea of this polarizable vacuum approach to general relativity where if you change the permeability and permittivity of free space
And physics.
So really interesting stuff in the literature there, but I don't know if he got that idea on his own because he worked closely with a lot of other interesting fellows like Bernard Heche from Caltech who worked as a staff physicist but I don't know if he got that idea on his own because he worked closely with a lot of other interesting fellows like Bernard Heche from Caltech who worked as a
You know, not just a lot of work.
In mid-1994, I think, 1994 is when Miguel Alcubierre published that warp drive paper, and the community kind of just went nuts, you know?
So they were like, well, we're gonna have people looking into this, and they did!
Alright.
So, here's the question for you, though.
You believe it is possible that we have been, or are being visited, or will be, You do not buy, as I don't, the evidence that is on the table, because it all seems to have a more rational explanation that is terrestrial.
What have you seen that gives you pause, that makes you think, actually, that one might be more easily explained by aliens and their technology visiting the Earth?
If there's nothing, there's nothing, but I'd be curious to see if anything.
There's a couple ones you just wonder if they're real or not, certain things, certain cases.
There's one video that was supposedly recorded of a UFO flying over, and it instantly prints a crop circle in a field, and it was supposedly captured on a Regular camera, although this I don't haven't seen the chain of evidence or any any of the proof for that because it really just looks like Early, you know advanced CGI or something that produces it.
Yeah, you know certainly hard to accept anything.
That's just pixels, you know You know I was super into this stuff early on when I first got into it and I was convinced that it was not you know, like that there might be another cover-up.
And I took that angle very strongly in a lot of the research that I did because people like Bob Lazar, who sent me down that rabbit hole, like they're hiding a hangar out in the desert with nine saucers in it.
I mean, come on, that's enough to get any one young kid interested in this stuff and the potentials that it might hold.
It's interesting when you start getting into the real physicists that didn't work as senior staff physicists for Lockheed Martin and you're like, wow, Lockheed Martin was looking into inertial control and also free energy systems and stuff like that.
It's interesting, but it's more interesting, I find, than the fake stuff, which is, you know, the whole, you know, there's no proof for any of that.
And the Element 115 thing is like, you know, it was a...
I could just add numbers to the periodic table and guess element 129 and say that it has antigravity.
Where is it?
It's been discovered and it's not stable in anything more than a few milliseconds, and it's not antigravity yet, so we're still waiting, and the jury's still out.
You know, NASA studied field propulsion in 1979 under Alan Holt.
There's a number of other studies that you can look to and say, well, they studied this stuff.
NASA references UFOs as being an inspiration for why they did the study.
You know, so obviously NASA scientists were taking some of this stuff seriously and trying to look into it and do research into it, but I haven't seen direct evidence of anything yet hard that proves it.
And then the physics that we do have that do look promising is, you know, things like Laser etching lithography of quantum dots, you know, laser etching quantum dots onto metal surfaces and then layering these metamaterials that you can create from the laser etchings and the things that those will do.
And then also layered graphene with other types of, you know, borophene and other types of Interesting two-dimensional materials create some really interesting effects that we'd really like to study more.
But again, these things are super expensive to play with, basically.
Well, my understanding is that is changing.
Jim Torr's lab seems to have come up with an inexpensive process for mass-producing graphene in a useful form.
I actually know Jim a little bit, and I have nothing but respect for the guy's capacity in the realm of nanotech.
It's incredible.
So anyway, there's no doubt.
We are on the verge of many a material revolution where, you know, tiny amounts of matter can be arranged in ways that have extraordinary properties and presumably any sufficiently advanced race elsewhere in the universe would have
um encountered those things and leveraged them in all kinds of ways that are hard for us to imagine so um but i want to go back because you described something fascinating here which you know uh strengthens my sense about who you are and why i would listen to you on a topic like this you describe yourself as
More credulous with respect to the visitation of Earth by aliens earlier, and the more you've studied and learned, the less you are convinced that the evidence that they have been here exists.
You haven't seen anything that compels you.
I think that that's a very powerful story for somebody who believes that it is readily possible To have convinced themself out rather than convinced yourself into the idea that it has happened or is happening.
You've gone the other direction and that's exactly what I would want to see.
I would want to see the scientific skepticism cause you to in fact realize that there's a more likely explanation for what we have so far seen.
So you want to get into why I got to that position, and I'll cap it off with the best evidence that I've actually seen so far through my study of trying to prove this out.
The thing is, you get burnout because if you really believe too much in a case and then you find out, you start digging more and more and eventually it loses its footing.
You debate it with enough skeptics that you realize that you learn more about the case as you debate it with more and more people and engage more with skeptics.
You can't just sit in an echo chamber and with a bunch of people who agree with you.
You'll never get really anywhere.
And even if you do, what's the point?
Because you're just staying inside of a closed hole.
So that kind of got me out of that.
And I realized pretty early on that technology was the way out of all this stuff in the science, really proving it out if you can do an experiment.
If you're saying that you have a technology which can turn steel into dust, then show me and demonstrate it.
Build it and then show me how to do it and how much energy it uses and everything else.
And then we can do it.
We can go from there.
Or show me anti-gravity.
So yeah, so we have 70 plus years of the government studying this stuff.
And I have a massive archive that we've assembled of all the different studies.
But after two years of doing APEC and getting guys like Ronald Evans on from Project Green Glow over in the UK, He was on BBC like a week after he presented on our show and basically gave like the real deep, you know, this wasn't like the BBC's 10 minute video coverage on it.
He presented for an hour and then submitted to an hour Q&A where we just grilled the guy on, you know, asked him anything we wanted about this program that he worked on.
Over at Britain's Area 51, Porton Down.
Really interesting stuff, and they're doing some really cool research over there.
They have a super sensitive quantum gravitometer.
It measures quantum gravity to basically detect any little disturbance.
So if UFOs are flying around, it will be able to detect them.
But not the first time, again, that What you find is that there's counterintelligence that have seeped in and done things like the aviary that I talked about.
One of those guys was a guy named Richard Doty.
And there's a documentary I think anyone who gets into UFOs should watch.
It's called Mirage Men.
And the story of this guy named Paul Benowitz, who is an amateur radio operator and had a bunch of radio equipment too close to an NSA surveillance operation and something that they were some top secret programs that they were running out of.
of What's the name of the Air Force base down in New Mexico there?
Anyway, he stumbled upon this and got a little too close to it, and so they assigned this U.S.
Air Force OSI, Office of Special Investigations agent, Richard Doty, to the case.
Yeah.
Doty befriended him and then started planting stuff.
They started beaming radio signals into his stuff and made him feel like that he had stumbled across an alien operation and that it was the NSA talking to aliens and it was this big thing and it made the guy go crazy.
Actually, Paul Bennewitz, the true story, and he actually committed suicide because of all of it.
They had thrown him off the trail of it when he was going off the deep end.
Doty said he had tried to approach him and tell him the truth, and he didn't want to believe it.
He was so deep into the rabbit hole at that point, he didn't want to believe that.
He wanted to believe that he had stumbled across this big alien thing rather than that it was a top secret Air Force project and that they were trying to throw him off the case.
And then it talks about other operations, like Project Plowshare was one where they were doing underground nuclear testing, and then they wanted to monitor some of the radiation effects in the downstream river systems in neighboring towns and cities.
And what they were doing to do that is sampling some of the local livestock, like cattle, and they were removing the thyroid glands from the cattle because, of course, thyroid has There's radioactive iodine in the environment off stream from this nuke test, it's going to get picked up by your thyroid gland.
That's going to be the place they're going to be able to detect it.
Basically, the military was taking people's livestock, cutting out the thyroid glands, and then to throw them off this trail, they were cutting out other organs and dropping them from helicopters and sucking all the blood out and doing all this weird stuff.
They were really after the thyroid glands for the radioactive iodine, but they were doing all this weird stuff and blaming it on aliens so that they didn't have to pay the farmers for their cattle.
Question about that.
The radioactive iodine has a very short half-life.
I think it's eight days or something like that.
They were doing this in the immediate aftermath of their underground tests?
Yeah.
They were testing, and then they were doing the cattle mutilations to blame it on aliens, because some of the local farmers were getting suspicious, and they were trying to throw them off the trail, apparently.
And then, of course, you take the other side of this, the play devil's advocate, or conspiracy's advocate, and say, oh, well, maybe the government created this explanation just to cover up the aliens doing this.
Yeah, I mean, and this is one of the problems with a landscape of secrecy is that it actually throws a monkey wrench into the normal use of Occam's razor, right?
Because anytime you have something in which a cover-up is an actual functional piece of the thing, What is a cover-up?
Well, a cover-up is something that attempts to create the impression of the way some dots should be connected that isn't the correct way to connect them.
And so anyway, again, this is why I have appreciated your work for many years is that you, you know, my own feeling is Occam's Razor works even when you're dealing with conspiratorial stuff.
But it only works when you have all of the information.
When you have a subset, especially a curated subset of the information, you have to be ready to see a violation of Occam's Razor and realize that you're missing evidence.
Where's the cover-up?
Here's the cover-up.
It goes way beyond that, beyond Occam's Razor, when you deal with a cover-up, because what you have is an institution which has control of 90% of the mainstream media, where they can direct a message, create a false movement, prop up their fake leaders of this prop up their fake leaders of this false movement, lead an entire movement in the wrong direction.
Because you go back to Thomas Pynchon in Gravity's Rainbow, if they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers. - Mm-hmm.
And that's the whole concept of the game here, is that they create a false, they prop up all these know-nothings with the misinformation so that they can put those front and center, create this movement, you know, attitude that we're gonna knock down the doors and get the answers to all this stuff, They ask the wrong questions and then it gets debunked and then everyone loses hope and goes home and says, you know, like, oh, maybe this was, there was nothing to this.
And then if there is programs there, they're not getting talked about and they're also hyping everyone up, but that it's aliens and that we need to, you know, get the government to disclose the truth, you know, to bring out the saucers and the aliens and to bring it up.
But what if that's not the case?
I don't, we don't have a ton of, we have some interesting circumstantial evidence for that, but we don't have any direct evidence.
So the circumstantial evidence is kind of interesting.
You have this, well, one is you have this repeat event of the balloons over Super Bowl weekend, and they all get shot down, you know, blown out of the sky with sidewinder missiles so that there's nothing left.
And then they can say like, oh, they vanished without a trace, and we don't have anything left to do it.
But it was all, you know, spy balloons and these advanced balloon technology, and that's...
Of course, a repeat of Roswell, which they blame the whole thing with.
Alvarez, the scientist who did all the Project Mogul balloon experiments for the U.S.
military at the time, coming out and saying, this was all part of a really big weather balloon train and radar reflectors that we were using to track Doppler patterns in the clouds to measure the wind patterns with these balloons.
This was all part of our operation.
Some of them might have been spy balloons, too, that we were sending over as well, even early back then.
That was the whole cover-up for Roswell, apparently.
Then you have things like von Neumann in October, one of the top Manhattan Project scientists, the brain of the Manhattan Project, essentially.
It comes up with the idea of von Neumann probes, which are self-replicating space probes.
Probes that can go out and make copies of themselves and then go out and colonize the galaxy and make more copies and share and send information back and forth.
It's essentially like a type 3, what we call type 3 Kardashev now.
Now, did he just hear the rumors about Roswell and the alien crash saucer and come up with the idea on his own, just in his own brain, or did he see something and came up with that idea from that?
Well, it's arguable.
I say both ways.
Now the legend goes that whatever they recovered at Roswell, the Air Force intelligence officer on the scene, Jesse Marcel, later testified that there was a debris switch and that it was not of this earth, which started a lot of these conspiracy theories and rumors.
Of course, we know that the debris went to Fort Peck.
Fort Worth first, went to Fort Worth, Texas from Roswell, which was the division, the head of the 1st Army Division.
And then from there, Ramey took the press photo with it in the press conference saying it was just a weather balloon.
And from there, apparently that was where the debris switch took place and that the real material went to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base on another flight.
And that it was received at Wright-Patterson and stored in a place, I don't know if it was Hangar 18 at Wright-Patterson, I think it was Hangar 18 at the first, at Roswell.
Getting the important details mixed up, but interesting that in 1949, Battelle Memorial Institute, which is in Columbus, Ohio, which is 45 minutes from Dayton, Ohio, where Wright-Patterson is, they did a study into the metallurgy of nitinol, basically nickel alloys.
They were looking into titanium alloys, and they had a whole bunch of different titanium alloys, but the focus on nickel alloys was like three pages, when the other ones were just a page each.
They were really looking at nickel-titanium alloys back then in 1949 for some reason.
This was, of course, a decade before nitinol wire was discovered at Naval Ordnance Research Laboratories.
One of the interesting things about the Roswell debris that all these witnesses, if you go back to the original witness testimony, they described this memory foil, this memory metal.
That was a woven mesh fabric on a quantum level and that's why they said that it couldn't have been man-made back then.
It was just way too complex of a material.
No one's ever been able to reproduce a piece of that material or show that it's real, but I think the stories of it were interesting enough to wonder why they were looking into ways to... Apparently you couldn't cut or break the stuff.
It was really, really hard.
really durable.
And so right in this Battelle study, they have the scientists working on this carbon tetrachloride method where they dissolve this stuff in carbon tetrachloride and then measure the off gases to determine they have the scientists working on this carbon tetrachloride method where they
So they have these really complex ways of analyzing substances that might be indestructible, so to speak, in 1949, which is interesting.
seen.
But most interesting thing is that the research was under the director of this guy, Howard C. Cross, who came up in this Pentacle Memorandum that was found in J. Allen Hynek's notes.
J. Allen Hynek was the scientist that the U.S.
Air Force hired to, I had the Project Blue Book investigation from, you know, 1958, I think, till 68, maybe 55, if I'm correct. there.
I might be getting the dates wrong, but yeah, the Project Blue Book study, apparently there was two Project Blue Books.
There was a second Project Blue Book which dealt with this metallurgy side of actual, had access to actual materials.
And that was directed by Howard C. Cross of Battelle.
And there were a number of other interesting names on that list who I've never been able to really track down and find any solid information on any of those people looking through just conventional records.
If there's records on them, it's Battelle or somewhere else or whoever was involved in it.
But I thought that was interesting because if there was an operation, Battelle would be the place that would do it.
It's a quasi-governmental organization.
It's what Edgar Mitchell described to where these things were held in an interview.
He apparently knew something about it.
Or Gordon Cooper, I'm not sure which one of them.
But anyways, Battelle is an interesting organization because it manages all of our national labs.
So Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, they're all under the management directorship of Battelle.
So if you want to control science in this country, You could do it easily through a quasi-governmental organization like Battelle.
They would have the power and leverage to be able to cover up a UFO thing or be a container, so to speak, for a UFO file or something of this nature, if it exists.
And the other container that we know of that may have existed was actually uncovered by a Senator Barry Goldwater, who was told about this.
It was allegedly a blue room, it's called the Blue Room at Wright-Patterson, and that the Blue Room is where they store all the artifacts of unknown origin, apparently, whether that's Russian or Chinese or what have you.
There's speculation about that.
I don't know for sure.
I'm curious.
I'd certainly like to believe that there's a blue room and that they have pieces of alien technology in there that, you know, they're not releasing to the public because, you know, what happens when, you know, what happens when Al Qaeda gets a hold of free energy technology, you know, it's an anti-gravity and warp drive.
It's not going to be pretty.
So I can understand why they may want to keep that stuff classified if it does exist.
But at the same time, if everyone had it and they just, you know...
I don't know.
At the same time, I think that even if they did release it, the material science end of this is sufficiently so far advanced that it sets a high enough bar that you can't really reach that bar without some serious international collaboration.
So I really doubt that if they did disclose it or release it, that a rogue group would even be able to, like even Mao Zedong, you know, wouldn't be able to I mean, even Kim Jong Un wouldn't be able to build this stuff without some serious collaboration.
I think it's going to take a serious international collaboration and effort to develop So again, just to be clear, what you're saying is there may or may not be a Blue Room.
It may or may not contain alien tech.
physics that's coming.
So again, just to be clear, what you're saying is there may or may not be a blue room.
It may or may not contain alien tech.
So far, there's no reason to believe that it does that you have seen.
But if it did, there would be the expectation that it...
You offer a more generous interpretation of why it would not be shared.
My sense is that given the levels of governmental corruption that we have now seen, it is hard for me to imagine That the first instinct of at least some of the people who would have had access wouldn't be to privatize it for their own profit, which would then necessitate a cover story of why it wasn't being shared.
Right.
This is the plot to all the Disney's Witch Mountain films, where it's always some rich billionaire that wants to get a hold of that technology and leverage it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would agree, yeah.
Well, that's all very interesting.
Matches my own sense.
I have yet to see the thing that will cause me to jump.
Well, the other thing, Ray, is that the people that they put in charge of these things are very often uber-religious, you know, Christian types, and they convince them that this is demons, you know?
So they have to lock these demons away from, you know, normal societies.
And this is sort of the They use a religious philosophy, I think, in some of these institutions to keep this, because it seems like a lot of the people who I've seen are these people that are convinced that it's demons, you know, and that's their interpretation of it.
They don't want to go beyond that, and they're happy with that explanation.
But, you know, again, I seem to think that anything outside of the Well, actually, that brings me to something I wanted to recover from something you said earlier in the podcast.
And forgive me, it's now been long enough.
It's going to be hard for me to recover exactly what you said, but we were talking about the The mixture, you know, the getting people to ask the wrong questions.
And what I have seen, you know, if I look out at the intellectuals of the day, many of them seem to have a smug and at the same time, I think, completely inexplicable belief that conspiracies are not worth worrying about.
And many of them have a rationalization for why you don't have to worry about them.
You know, they're rare.
And so there's some sort of percentage argument.
I don't know.
But the whole thing strikes me as the product of a psychological operation.
That in effect, if what you did is, you know, first of all, I think those who conspire at a sophisticated level have learned certain tricks.
One of them is that you release - Yes.
Real information fused with garbage.
Yeah.
And what this does is it produces an experience that is near universal, where people who begin to follow one of these rabbit holes because there's something real to be discovered, embrace some piece of garbage, they get burned, and it's basically like a dog being swatted on the nose with a newspaper every time it, you know, It puts its snout somewhere.
They learn not to do it.
And so the basic point is, why would intellectuals who know full well that conspiracies have been a permanent feature of history from the beginning, why would they embrace a position that is in effect a non-starter, conspiracies aren't worth worrying about, if that makes no sense?
Well, because they're behaving like dogs Who every time they've contemplated a conspiracy have had their nose swatted and so they learn not to do it and they're now explaining to themselves why it's not worth doing, which is very destructive because of course it fosters conspiracy.
It creates a cloak for it in which it can operate.
Well, what we've seen during COVID is we've seen conspiracies operating almost in plain sight, right?
Conspiracies to suppress information.
Conspiracies to shape people's understanding, to exploit their fears, and even the revelation of it doesn't cause it to break and cause us to, you know, pursue an explanation of who did it and why and what their real motives might have been.
So anyway, I'm looking at a population that looks like It was trained not to ask the right questions, which dovetails very well with what you had put on the table.
Yeah.
It's also funny because who are they asking the questions to?
To quote Robbie Graham, the ultimate irony of the disclosure movement is that it deeply distrusts officialdom while simultaneously looking to officialdom for the truth.
And by imagining all answers to the UFO mystery to be out of public reach, deep in the bowels of the national security state, the disclosure movement actually places power into the hands of officialdom while disempowering the individual.
And I think that's profound, because who does the military look to when they need answers?
Well, for Project Blue Book, they hired who?
J. Allen Hynek.
Who was J. Allen Hynek?
He was a scientist.
There's a guy like me who is like, I'm super interested in UFOs, and I've already studied this, you know, for a decade, more without pay, and I'd be happy to study it for the government, you know, with pay, if I could just get, you know, if I just knew the right people, I guess.
Well, I've wondered about this from a different perspective.
You know, I wonder why there aren't, maybe there are, and I'm just not aware of them, but it seems to me That the idea of, you know, demanding that the government cough up the information about the aliens ought to be coupled with at least as prominent an impulse to just contact the aliens directly.
Like, why are people...
Not bypassing the government and saying, actually, you can't trust those people.
Why don't you come talk to some folks who are actually up to the challenge?
Why is there no private scientific institute with a beam that it's pointing up into the, you know, into the sky with an invitation to actually talk science and help humanity out of its mess?
We could go to the very large array down in New Mexico, the big radio satellite telescope array, and just set up a beam in the center of that thing with a landing pad, and it would be like contact SETI.
Yeah!
How about even just help?
We could use some help.
We're at that stage of history that undoubtedly, if you exist, you know happens where we are a huge danger to ourselves and our leadership is not up to the challenge.
You would think that we could at least put out, you know, it would be inexpensive to invite the aliens who very well may not exist in near proximity at all, but if they do, you know, why are we trusting The government's to talk to them.
I don't trust the government's to do anything else at this point.
I've seen too much.
I would be trusting it all.
In fact, if it came out and the government admitted to this or said anything about it, I would distrust that immediately.
Right where I am.
I would distrust it immediately, exactly.
The aliens are suffering from the distrustworthiness of government, which might be impacting their ability to actually talk to some of us folks down here who would be in a better position to do it well.
I'm just astounded by the two individuals that the Pentagon put in front of Congress for those hearings and how just clueless they were and underprepared.
I feel like the whole thing is a set-up misdirection where they can get They can post up their false front.
And again, this is like the idea of the pseudo gang.
It's called, you know, like if you watch Life of Brian where they had the Judean People's Front and then the People's Front of Judea.
This counter organization of a similar name and you pretend to be the original organization and then cause a bunch of trouble so that everyone hates your organization by, you know.
And that's the idea is that they can put a bunch of crap out there with fake scientists, fake whistleblowers and fake videos.
Get it all debunked where they can introduce this video and say, and then it gets debunked where they can literally find the star pattern in the charts and say, look, look, it's a triangular aperture lens.
It's creating the bokeh effect and not admitting to this.
And yet he's still trying to hammer down that door.
That's a psyop.
That's a psyop because we have such better evidence.
Anyone who...
Wants to look into this thing a little bit could find that and know much better questions to ask But when these are the people that are leading it and the information that's being you know presented It you're not gonna get there any answers Are you the answers you're gonna get are gonna be the wrong ones and it's and I think that there's a lot of that going on right now with regards to this because
There is credible information that at least from what I found for What we're working on that we're the public's not being told about and I think it's more important What's not being talked about than what is and with regards to this subject.
So yeah, that's that's fascinating Unfortunately, I have seen that pattern with kovat where - They create a bunch of fake doctors, right?
And then they'll create these fake PhD profiles on Twitter and you'll follow them thinking it's real information and then they'll start inserting a lot of bad information with it.
I saw that a lot. - That's certainly true.
Something has created false profiles, but even worse, there are, you know, there is a discussion of people who have decided to pay the price of not staying on narrative.
And that discussion has disagreement within it.
And then there's the official discussion, which pretends to have disagreement within it over questions that are effectively settled.
I mean, why are we still?
I mean, look, you can take your kid and you can get them an mRNA vaccine for COVID.
That doesn't make any sense, right?
The fact that the current version of COVID isn't especially threatening, that it doesn't threaten children, that we do have adverse events, there is no rational argument for that.
And yet what we have in the doctor's office and in the halls of Congress and everywhere else is the pretense that there is a rational argument.
Which it's hard to even imagine what it would sound like, right?
We're just, there's too much evidence now that that argument is dead in the water.
And yet, you know, actual needles are being put into actual arms that they should never be.
So anyway, there's something about the way, the degree to which officialdom is willing to pretend that an argument is viable.
You know, in the case of the UAPs, you're describing people who aren't expert being questioned as if they were and revealing themselves to be foolish.
But the point is, as you say, that is the diagnosis of a PSYOP, right?
That the purpose of such a thing, the purpose of querying people who are not experts is to be in public.
There's many different types of PSYOPs.
So like this bait and switch where they, you know, you bait them with what they think is, you know, the golden whistleblower, but you switch it out for a fake.
Then there's the straw man where you're presenting this as like, well, this is a UFO researcher.
And this is a, this is a conspiracy theorist.
And this is what they believe where you, you, you, you create a straw man version of that.
Then you can debunk the straw man where you, you can,
Keep those arguments in within a context where you can actually you know debate them like I Don't know I can go into many examples, but I don't know Well, I mean look I do think before we close this discussion out it is worth saying I first became aware of you not in the UFO UAP context, but I first became aware of you in the context of conspiracy
I would call them hypotheses.
I think we do ourselves a disservice to refer to them as conspiracy theories, that that's in fact part of the PSYOP that causes us to look away.
But in any case, there are many conspiracies.
We have to be forever vigilant because the incentive for people to conspire and take advantage of us is It's not going anywhere.
That said, the majority of hypotheses in the area of conspiracy are simply wrong.
And so what one needs is a toolkit for searching that landscape for useful information.
Without falling victim to either a reflexive embrace of conspiracies, or equally as bad, a reflexive rejection of the idea of conspiracy, which may solve the problem of, you know, you looking good to your friends at the cocktail party, but it puts us all in much greater danger of actual conspiracies succeeding.
And so the question is, how does one address that?
And my, from before I had discovered your work, I had concluded that the right toolkit with science that one has to be aware you don't have all the information and one has to navigate very cautiously.
But nonetheless, you can, for example, study... Not just that, but you also have to be aware that someone is actively trying to hide the real information from you and present the narrative that's being presented in the mainstream public, I almost like immediately assume is false, always, because that's what's always being put out there.
It's the cover story.
And the real information is always being actively hidden.
And I find that in Search Engine.
One of the biggest toolkits I can tell people is I use Yahoo Video Search now because it's like the back-end algorithm for how YouTube search algorithm used to work before they fixed it so that you can no longer find what you're looking for if it's a conspiracy.
I swear they have a tag on real information.
If you start talking about real information on your video, It just doesn't.
It doesn't show up in the searches anymore.
Believe me, our channel has clearly been flagged in a way.
Absolutely.
I watched it.
You guys were like getting twice the views on the live streams and then.
Yeah.
And then they've created the doldrums, whether that's actual, whether they actually are hiding us from the public or whether they are Are they pretending that we're reaching fewer people in order to dissuade advertisers?
I don't know what they're doing, but it is clear that, you know, it's more than a thumb on the scale.
It's a frickin' elephant on the scale.
And, you know, it has its impact, which hasn't changed what we do, but nonetheless, it does exist.
It's part of some mechanism to prevent certain things from being discussed in places where they can be heard.
But that does raise a question.
I do want to talk to you about the fact of the desperate need, I would say, the vacuum of people who responsibly deal with questions of collusion.
Um, something that I think you do exceedingly well.
I don't know what the ratio is between conspiracies that you have concluded are real and conspiracies that you have debunked, but you have certainly debunked far more Conspiratorial ideas than you have embraced it shows the same skeptical instinct that people have seen in this podcast with respect to UAPs.
I mean you you call yourself alien scientist.
You're certainly Open to and excited for the idea of alien contact, but it doesn't cause you to embrace things that are not supported by evidence Right.
So in any case do you want to say anything about?
How you have engaged questions of conspiracy and what you've learned about that general topic?
Well, it's certainly interesting to see the change in a lot of, you know, because I had a lot of family members and friends that had, you know, for years said, you know, you're going, you're like crazy, some of the stuff you talk about and everything.
In the last two years, I've had so many people come back and say, I'm going to start listening to you now, because everything you've been calling, it's like I can predict the future.
I'm saying that you have a group of people that I've been watching that have done A lot of things that are connected, and a lot of these pieces are connected.
Let's talk about Iran-Contra scandal, for example.
The closing statement that Daniel Inouye, the Senator from Hawaii, said at the end of the Iran-Contra hearings.
Is that there exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanisms, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of the national interest free from all checks and balances and free from the law itself.
When you look into the group that was connected to Iran-Contra and you start tracing these people through, it's a bad apples group.
It's parts of the agencies that have gone rogue over the years and were never reeled back in.
They've gone really rogue and been involved in a whole host of nasty and really devious things.
And now we are talking about something that must have been passed from one generation of rogue entities to another, right?
We have, I mean this is one of the things that is always the most troubling, it's hard to detect, but the most troubling thing in the landscape of responsible conspiracy hypothesis testing is that you find that things like The Kennedy assassination are connected in strange ways to things like the Watergate break-in.
Yes, yes.
Frank Sturgis and E. Howard Hunt.
They look just like the tramps that were arrested in Dealey Plaza and later released.
They were found in a train car and then E. Howard Hunt on his deathbed said he was a bench warmer on the assassination.
And details like that.
And then E. Howard Hunt's lawyer saying that, oh, what's the big picture?
And that him saying that E. Howard Hunt told his lawyer that it was, that they're hiding alien technology.
That was another interesting thing that came out of E. Howard Hunt's lawyer, that the big thing that this is all about is that, you know, he was going to blab, JFK was going to blab about the alien technology apparently, and that he had told Marilyn Monroe about it.
And that Marilyn Monroe was assassinated along with her girlfriend, Dorothy Kilgallen, who was the newspaper reporter that was writing.
Her last interview that she did was with Jack Ruby.
Wait, what?
Dorothy Kilgallen, her last interview that she did was with Jack Ruby.
It never got published, and she wound up dead before it got published.
All right.
Well, that's a connection I didn't know.
Yeah.
But I did know about E. Howard Hunt and the hobos arrested outside of Dealey Plaza.
Yeah, the tramps.
There's interesting suspects.
They look like some CIA guys that were dressed like hobos, and certainly bear a resemblance Frank Sturgis, E. Howard Hunt, and I think Gary Campbell.
And of course, the fact that people bear a resemblance doesn't tell you anything.
Yeah, there's been a lot of misidentifications and other people say it was Chauncey Holt and a number of other people.
Woody Harrelson's dad at one point was an allegation of that.
You look at the photography and the stuff that people have pulled out of there, like the Mary Mormon photograph and the Badge Man.
You know, there's the whole theory that it was a Dallas police officer, one of the Dallas police officers on the grassy knoll that took the shot.
But what we can say for factually certain is that in the investigation of Watergate, the assassination of JFK is mentioned as if there is a connection and there is a
Yeah, that was from the Nixon tapes, right, where he talks about the whole Bay of Pigs thing and says we better not get into that.
Yeah, and the Bay of Pigs thing was the Kennedy assassination, of course.
The Bay of Pigs was nicknamed Operation Zapata.
Zapata Oil.
Zapata Oil Company was George H.W.
Bush's company, and they had used the platforms, the Scorpion platform, as the staging operation for the Bay of Pigs invasion.
That's why it was nicknamed Operation Zapata.
Back to the whole issue of the Dallas police force, a lot of the Dallas police officers used to hang out at Jack Ruby's club, the Carousel Club.
In Dallas, apparently.
And one of them, the guy was a guy named Roscoe White, who looked just like JFK.
No, wait, no.
Tippett was the one that looked like JFK.
The one that got shot.
He looked like JFK.
And there's a conspiracy that he was the body double and that they needed to make him the body double.
Am I incorrect that his nickname was JFK?
He looked so much like him.
Yeah.
One of the other police officers was Roscoe White, and Roscoe White was in the Civil Air Patrol, and he was a platoon buddy with Lee Harvey Oswald, and he was also in the Marines stationed at Atsugi Air Force Base, which is where the U-2 spy plane flights were flown out of.
There's all these interesting connections.
You've got to read Crossfire by Jim Mars.
There's a really good early book on it.
And also Family of Secrets by Russ Baker.
He really nailed down a lot of other interesting connections on the whole JFK assassination for me, where I was just like, you know, this is just too deep.
And the fact that we're here 70 years later and they still won't release the files on George Joannides.
And that's just, that's just suspect right there.
And the whole issue with George Joannides, apparently he was at the Ambassador Hotel the night that RFK was assassinated, too, alongside David Sanchez Morales and Gordon Campbell.
Yeah, that's the thing is they have effectively trained people not to go down these rabbit holes because if you go down these rabbit holes you do find the number of connections is improbably large.
It's really quite remarkable.
But actually, okay, now that we've both taken the risk of exposing that we are not We are not of the mindset that conspiracies are so unlikely to occur that we won't entertain them.
Right.
Some people will view that as an indictment of our capacity to think.
And I would just, I would ask you this.
Maybe you can ask them to debate me and you could host it.
I was, I was thinking along the same lines.
You'd be willing, I know that you have offered in the past, but you're still willing to debate conspiracy skeptics?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I happen, I'm friends with Michael Shermer.
I quite like him.
He's a skeptic on all of these conspiratorial topics.
You'd be willing to debate him on Dark Horse?
Yeah, absolutely.
I went on Mick West's show two years ago.
Maybe I should get Mick West and do a revisit of his show at some point too, man.
That's a good idea.
OK, well, cool.
I would love to see it.
Frankly, I think the place that we are with respect to collusion is very unhealthy.
You cannot have a functional, complex society like ours and reflexively reject the idea of collusion.
What you have to do is actually be vigilant about figuring out where it has occurred.
So that you can drive the cost of colluding up too high to contemplate and reduce the amount of collusion that takes place, which is, you know, it's the opposite of where we are.
We've built a cloak for those who would conspire against us by pretending that it is sophisticated to ignore the possibility.
Right, yeah, and ignore the prosecution of people that, you know, should have been prosecuted for even earlier crimes before the ones that they were, you know, still committing, you know, free of even the slightest bit of scrutiny.
It's kind of...
It's kind of crazy what's going on in today's day and age, and I think it's more than welcome now that in this environment where we're waking up to the possibility that, wow, large-scale conspiracies can exist where you can have A large number of scientists or academics or doctors persuaded through means of also, I think it's important what you talked about,
I think on the last podcast or the one before you did, where you talk about incentivized, I think on the last podcast or the one before you did, where you talk about incentivized, where the people or individuals are And they're incentivized not to speak out against the narrative on an individual basis.
This is a key part of how propaganda works, and that's why Bernays you know, titled his book, "Crystallizing Public Opinion," 'cause it's about this crystallization, and in order to have a crystal, you need a unit cell, and that unit cell needs to be motivated by, you know, the forces acting upon it, which are the incentives. - Yep, that's very well put.
The fact is you can manipulate an arbitrarily large number of people with a relatively simple modification of incentives.
And in fact, you produce exactly what we've seen over COVID and presumably in all the previous cases where you've got a tiny number of people who are built around a different architecture, such that they are mostly or completely insensitive to the normal incentives.
And those people immediately start looking around and saying, well, wait a minute, none of this adds up.
And then you just have a wall of people insisting on things that obviously aren't true on the basis that they have all individually detected their incentives and are following them, whether they understand that that's what they're doing or not, whether they're You know, collaborators or useful idiots.
The point is, if you're using consensus in order to figure out what's likely to be true, a consensus of experts or a consensus of the public, then you are very easily manipulated because a consensus can be arranged simply by shuffling incentives so that most people will respond to them.
One of the things they did with the JFK assassination is they did not readily release the Zapruder film to the public.
What they instead did is they let a Dallas news reporter by the name of Dan Rather tell the public what was on the contents of the Zapruder film.
And from Dan Rather's incentive was, hey, I'm a young reporter trying to make a name for myself, and these guys promised me I'm a made man if I just sell their story for them.
And it's completely shocking, because, so, I don't think most people know this piece of the story, right?
We all, because we've seen the Zapruder film many times, have the sense that it's been around from the beginning, right?
Right.
The point is, it was briefly shown, and then Dan Rather installs whatever, whether he is a useful idiot, or... It was only shown to Dan Rather, and Dan Rather told the public what, the first time it was shown on television was 1968, I believe.
Oh wait, no.
Maybe even later than that.
Years later.
I have to look that up.
That's a good point.
Because it wasn't until I think a decade later.
It wasn't until like the 70s or something.
So what the public had was Dan Rather describing and even mimicking the motion of the President and in exact, in perfect contradiction of what is shown in the film.
I think it was like 78 that Geraldo showed it on TV for the first time.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Huh.
So what we have is effectively a false memory installed in the public on the basis of a seemingly reliable source reporting what he's seen and saying things that we can now compare to the film and can understand very simply are just false.
Right.
Yeah, it's very striking, and in terms of revealing how a false consensus is built, it is a truly remarkable piece of evidence.
It's the anatomy of a PSYOP.
Yeah, I think the public can't handle the truth, and if there's anyone that will die by the By the revealing of the truth, and I say let them die.
Well, I will go a different route, and I will say A. Those who would collude against our knowledge always come up with some excuse where it's in our interest not to know the truth.
And, you know, I'm sure some people can't handle the truth.
I know that many of us can, but what I know for certain is that Authorities cannot handle the power to decide when we are entitled to know the truth.
In a better society, they might be able to, but our society is so corrupt that, frankly, the truth must come out because what we've been sold is closer to the matrix.
It's more fiction than reality, and everything is at stake, including life and limb, clearly.
Yeah, I just don't understand how the intelligence agencies who call themselves intelligent can live with the fact that at the end of the day, their job is to lie to people and control people's minds through the information that they have exposure to and don't, and that seems to be the name of a lot of the games of counterintelligence anyway.
Rather than just pure people that working in just in collecting intelligence and spying directly but the whole idea of this counterintelligence that there are people that their job is to Lie to you and make sure that you're misdirected and that Your perception is managed and To a degree where you won't even be able to ask the right questions to get to the truth.
So it's... It has long been a place to be, man.
And I can't imagine the people that want to be on that side of that and want to make money and be paid and live with themselves doing that for a job every day where you're just like, all right, I want to disinform people.
I don't want to bring humanity up.
I got to be that boot that stomps them down.
Further and further into the ground so that you know, my bosses can stand up just that inch higher off there Yeah, they've they have lost any right to manage I mean not that they had any right to manage public perception, but whatever limited interest there might be in Controlling information they have so abused that that privilege that it certainly does not exist at this point
I heard lots of kids when I was younger who wanted to grow up and become teachers, but none that wanted to do the opposite of what teachers do.
To anti-teach, yeah.
Agreed.
Alright, well, Jeremy, where can people find you?
So, YouTube Alien Scientist is my channel.
I go live periodically.
You can reach me at thealienscientist at gmail.com, one word, if you want to email me.
I also have a website, alienscientist.com.
You can go and contact me maybe through there and reach out.
And I'm also on Twitter at Alien Underbar Scientist.
So I feel free to reach out anywhere at one of those platforms.
Fantastic.
Well, I really appreciate you joining me.
This has been very enlightening and hopefully real honest-to-goodness aliens will find their way here and bypass the government and talk to some of the few adults who are still running around on this planet.
I like your idea of the signal.
I got to start putting that out.
Yeah.
All right.
We'll pass the government.
What do you need them for?
Let's not empower them any more than they have already empowered themselves on our behalf with our tax dollars.
Exactly.
Our scientists.
All right.
Well, it's been a real pleasure and good luck and hopefully Michael Shermer or someone else will take you up on your offer.
