Decoding the Gurus - Supplementary Material 49: Calibrated Podcast Expectations, The Great Consciousness Debate of 2026, and Russell Brand is a Bad Guy
Aired: 2026-05-12
Duration: 44:27


=== Welcome to Decoding the Guru (09:49) ===

[00:00:28]  Hello and welcome to Decoding the Guru's supplementary material with your favorite two cranky, middle aged, academic, international hosts Matthew Brown, psychologist, Christopher Kavanaugh, psychologist slash anthropologist, cognitive anthropologist, if you like.
[00:00:45]  We're here and we're ready to talk about gurus and related topics in a supplementary material edition where we can let our hair down and Be ourselves, Matt.
[00:00:59]  We're not constrained to some rigid format of clips and responses to clips.
[00:01:03]  No, we're free.
[00:01:04]  Let our freak flag fly.
[00:01:07]  Welcome.
[00:01:08]  That's right.
[00:01:08]  We can have something approaching one of the personal conversations we have, which is mainly commenting on dumb shit we've seen on the internet.
[00:01:15]  That's just how we roll.
[00:01:17]  That is how we roll.
[00:01:18]  Yeah.
[00:01:19]  And I've got plenty of dumb shit that I've seen recently.
[00:01:22]  But how have you been, Matt?
[00:01:23]  How have you been?
[00:01:25]  I've been good.
[00:01:26]  We had a long weekend here.
[00:01:27]  And you're in Golden Week, aren't you?
[00:01:29]  Golden Week?
[00:01:30]  Yeah.
[00:01:31]  And yet, why am I in a suit?
[00:01:33]  Well, not a suit, but that's overstating it.
[00:01:35]  Why am I in a shirt?
[00:01:37]  Why are you at the office?
[00:01:39]  More to the point.
[00:01:40]  In a shirt at the office, Matt, because the universities in Japan, their cursed black soul means that they don't necessarily follow public holidays.
[00:01:50]  So, university decided that this is a public holiday today, but not for me.
[00:01:56]  I had a class and everything.
[00:01:58]  So, I think that's the legal.
[00:02:01]  Yeah.
[00:02:02]  I feel like the guy.
[00:02:03]  And that I think you should leave Skit.
[00:02:06]  I'm not sure you're alive, and it is, yeah, you quit canceling lunch, yeah.
[00:02:11]  So, yeah, but seriously, why are they scheduling classes on Golden Week?
[00:02:15]  I mean, university students, come on, aren't they?
[00:02:18]  They deserve Golden Week too.
[00:02:19]  I know, I know.
[00:02:20]  So, you can tell me, but it's actually, it's even worse because on the little calendar, the pocket calendar, it classifies it as a special day where it's like, this is a public call day, but it's got classes.
[00:02:31]  So, like, why, why did you decide that?
[00:02:34]  I guess because of summer.
[00:02:35]  I mean, come on, academics.
[00:02:38]  We get a little bit of a holiday in the summer, don't we, really?
[00:02:41]  So, yeah.
[00:02:43]  Yeah.
[00:02:44]  Yeah.
[00:02:44]  All year round, some would say.
[00:02:47]  Some, yeah.
[00:02:48]  Those right wing crazies, Matt.
[00:02:53]  You know, as well, am I announcing this here?
[00:02:56]  I'm not really announcing it.
[00:02:57]  It's not necessarily related to the podcast.
[00:02:59]  Don't worry, Matt.
[00:03:00]  You'll still be able to record episodes, but I'm going back to the Emerald Isle in the summer.
[00:03:06]  I'm going to go back for around two weeks to visit my homestead, look over.
[00:03:11]  The valleys and the mini mountains, and remind myself of my roots.
[00:03:17]  You know, touch grass as the kids like to say.
[00:03:20]  I'll literally be touching Irish grass in the summer.
[00:03:24]  Green, green grass.
[00:03:26]  Um, any great tourist attractions in Northern Ireland, Belfast?
[00:03:33]  Yeah, and the Jans Causeway.
[00:03:35]  Get the Jans Causeway.
[00:03:37]  Yeah, you've heard about that, right?
[00:03:39]  Yeah, Bushmills Distillery.
[00:03:41]  I know Bushmills well.
[00:03:43]  It's fine.
[00:03:44]  Yeah, we're a good friend.
[00:03:45]  A good friend of Bushmills.
[00:03:48]  And then in Belfast, there's the Titanic Quarter.
[00:03:51]  You can go see where that fine ship that had no flaws was constructed.
[00:03:59]  Look, that was just a lucky map.
[00:04:01]  It wasn't the fault of the engineer.
[00:04:06]  You can't blame the Irish for that.
[00:04:07]  It was the iceberg in the cabin.
[00:04:10]  We built it perfectly.
[00:04:11]  We built it perfectly.
[00:04:13]  If I could just see the Irish guy, like it was fine when it left you, yeah.
[00:04:18]  So, yeah, but it was fine, it was fine.
[00:04:24]  Like the Titanic was a freak thing, right?
[00:04:26]  The iceberg ripped a gash through all of the different compartments, right?
[00:04:31]  I know my Titanic Lord.
[00:04:32]  So it was well designed and well built.
[00:04:35]  There was no fault.
[00:04:36]  There's no defect.
[00:04:37]  That's what we keep telling them.
[00:04:41]  Yeah, the museum is actually really good.
[00:04:43]  I went there the last time I was back, and it's like a high quality museum because it was built recently.
[00:04:48]  So, you know, the displays and a lot are very nice.
[00:04:51]  But I don't need to go back.
[00:04:52]  I'm not going back.
[00:04:54]  I think what's is enough to go there.
[00:04:56]  So, yeah, but I don't need to do all the tourist stuff, Matt.
[00:04:59]  Me, I'm Belfast born and bred.
[00:05:02]  I've seen all the bomb sites, all the bullet holes, and the famously most bombed hotel in Europe, the Europa.
[00:05:11]  I don't need to do that, but I'm going to take my children on a black taxi tour, or at least the older one, to make him learn about the suffering of his genetic heritage.
[00:05:24]  I see.
[00:05:25]  Black taxi, black armband type tour.
[00:05:28]  Well, no, it's actually fun.
[00:05:30]  It's fun.
[00:05:30]  It's the.
[00:05:33]  The taxis in Northern Ireland, due to the troubles, the buses stopped running for a while because it was too dangerous.
[00:05:40]  Like my uncle, who was a bus driver, got petrol bombed, for example, Matt.
[00:05:44]  He didn't die because the bomb didn't go off, but he covered in petrol and it damaged his lungs and eyes.
[00:05:50]  So he had to quit working and stuff.
[00:05:52]  Anyway, lovely times in the 1970s.
[00:05:56]  But so because of that, black taxis, you know, like in the British movies, they drive around in their little black cabs.
[00:06:07]  In Belfast, people bought black taxis, then used them as buses.
[00:06:11]  So they went on like a set route and you could wave them down and you get on, and then other people are in the taxi and it goes along a little route.
[00:06:20]  So now you can go on tours by the drivers of those taxis and they take you around the famous sites of the Troubles and like kind of give a little, you know, like potted history of stuff.
[00:06:33]  So yeah, it's supposed to be fun.
[00:06:36]  Okay, good.
[00:06:37]  Good.
[00:06:38]  Well, that sounds fine.
[00:06:39]  That sounds fine.
[00:06:40]  I do want to go to Ireland.
[00:06:42]  I mean, mainly the southern part, but I guess I could pop into the north part as well.
[00:06:47]  Yeah.
[00:06:48]  Well, we'd all be happy to see you.
[00:06:51]  We're just hoping.
[00:06:54]  Oh, fingers crossed that Brian comes to you here.
[00:07:00]  A cold, dark day if you messed up.
[00:07:02]  I mean, if you go all the way to Ireland, you should at least pop into Belfast.
[00:07:05]  It's got really nice bars.
[00:07:08]  If I go to Ireland, I just want you to know that I will be telling.
[00:07:11]  Everyone about my Irish roots.
[00:07:14]  Oh, I thought you were going to say you're an Irish co host.
[00:07:16]  And I was like, yeah, I have a big deal over there.
[00:07:21]  Like, I'm sorry.
[00:07:22]  I know heaps of bloody Irish people here in Australia.
[00:07:25]  And you guys are everywhere.
[00:07:26]  It's nothing to brag about.
[00:07:29]  All right.
[00:07:30]  I know that.
[00:07:30]  Actually, today, you know, I know this is Irish heritage map, but it's important that listeners understand.
[00:07:36]  Okay.
[00:07:37]  I was teaching a course of like graphical representation or class about this.
[00:07:42]  What kind of graphs do you use with what kind of data types?
[00:07:45]  You know that it's actually much more interesting than it sounds.
[00:07:49]  Um, I think so.
[00:07:51]  I think so.
[00:07:52]  We are in a minority on this issue.
[00:07:55]  That's all I want.
[00:07:56]  I don't know.
[00:07:57]  I get very interesting graphs when I'm showing that, but I showed a graph of population in Europe time.
[00:08:04]  This is for you know, kind of time series longer, not longitude of that, but anyway, you know what I mean.
[00:08:11]  But one of them is the total population of Europe.
[00:08:14]  Over the past couple of centuries.
[00:08:16]  And the other one is the population in Ireland.
[00:08:18]  And it shows going up, up, up, and then a crash, and then it goes and levels out.
[00:08:26]  And in Japan, the students were like, What the hell happened there?
[00:08:30]  Where did Ireland?
[00:08:31]  Like, what happened?
[00:08:32]  And you're like, Gather round, and I'll tell you.
[00:08:35]  Yeah, I was like, Oh, good that you asked.
[00:08:38]  It's good that you asked.
[00:08:40]  But I did explain.
[00:08:40]  I was like, You know, the way all the Americans say they're Irish?
[00:08:44]  This is Australians, too.
[00:08:48]  That's right.
[00:08:49]  I think Ireland is just a.
[00:08:50]  It's just a soggy island.
[00:08:52]  It's a state of mind.
[00:08:53]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:55]  Exactly.
[00:08:55]  And that island's loss is our gain.
[00:08:57]  The New World, Chris.
[00:08:59]  Australia.
[00:08:59]  We're at the end.
[00:09:00]  Yeah.
[00:09:01]  As Australia, you know, excluding whatever.
[00:09:05]  The white, I don't know how to describe it.
[00:09:06]  The white population.
[00:09:10]  So the original Anglo Irish colonists, whatever, it's like 50% Irish.
[00:09:14]  It's like the Catholic, 40%.
[00:09:15]  Maybe 40%.
[00:09:16]  So maybe 40, 60%.
[00:09:17]  So, you know, that's why we have so many Catholic churches around the place.
[00:09:21]  There was a note of defensiveness in my description where they were like, What happened?
[00:09:27]  And they said, Was it the Troubles?
[00:09:29]  I was like, No, no, there wasn't that many or millions wiped out by the British.
[00:09:33]  But I said, No, it was a crop failure.
[00:09:37]  It was a potato blight, exacerbated by, or potentially exacerbated by colonial powers and their meddling.
[00:09:45]  Chris, just call it by its name genocide.
[00:09:48]  Genocide.
[00:09:49]  Well, no, but the thing is, I did feel like a little bit of shame when I was like, It's because there was a crop failure of the potato, and I could see in their eyes, they were like, Can they not have ate something?
[00:10:00]  Like, couldn't they have just ate the fish?
[00:10:05]  I saw that look in their eyes, or maybe it was my defensive reaction of like, So a single crop field and it wiped out a part of the population.
[00:10:14]  Like, it was a very important crop, okay?

=== The Potato Blight Metaphor (15:26) ===

[00:10:17]  Come on, if there was a rice failure in China or Japan, I know how would they do?
[00:10:21]  Well, they probably would eat something else, they would eat more fish.
[00:10:23]  That's true, they would think of that because they're innovators, Chris.
[00:10:27]  No, well, look, didn't Mao kill tens of millions through like.
[00:10:31]  Yes, so definitely that definitely did, definitely did.
[00:10:35]  So, yeah, so there we go.
[00:10:38]  What is this?
[00:10:38]  The racist history?
[00:10:40]  It could be, it could be, it could be whatever we want it to be, Chris.
[00:10:43]  We're still young.
[00:10:45]  No, um, well, look, we just released the um Gilchrist, Gilchrist, Gilchrist.
[00:10:50]  People have already criticized.
[00:10:51]  You got it right, Gilchrist, yes, Gilchrist, Gilchrist, part two.
[00:10:57]  Yes, we did.
[00:10:58]  Uh, part two.
[00:10:58]  So he's done, he's in the rear view mirror.
[00:11:00]  Thank god.
[00:11:01]  Well, we haven't put him into the grommeter yet, I forgot about that, but we will do that.
[00:11:06]  Actually, he's gonna rate pretty high, I think.
[00:11:08]  In the grommeter, I think he's like one of the specialist types that will stack high because, like, he's not high in conspiracy mongering, is he?
[00:11:18]  No, you probably actually, you may be right.
[00:11:20]  I spoke too soon.
[00:11:22]  Well, I just think he's a guru.
[00:11:23]  That's all.
[00:11:24]  He is a guru, he's absolutely a guru.
[00:11:26]  Yeah, I think he's a perfect fit to the concept.
[00:11:29]  And if he doesn't fit the grommeter, that's the grommeter's problem.
[00:11:32]  I think.
[00:11:32]  Yeah, that's right.
[00:11:33]  He says he's a subtype.
[00:11:35]  The sense makers, like I feel with the sense makers, whenever we cover them, when we don't cover them for a while, I'm like, oh, wouldn't it be nice to just hear them waffle on about some metaphor?
[00:11:46]  And the other one says, that makes me think of this metaphor.
[00:11:48]  And it'll be fun to hear them talk nonsense.
[00:11:52]  Then you listen to them.
[00:11:54]  And by the end of the third hour, you're like, I never want to hear another fucking metaphor.
[00:11:59]  Like they just take metaphors so seriously.
[00:12:04]  And it's not even.
[00:12:06]  It's not even taking the metaphor seriously.
[00:12:07]  Is what you pointed out, which is that they make a nice metaphor and then they assume that that means they've demonstrated all of their claims are correct.
[00:12:17]  And you're like, no, that's not what metaphors do.
[00:12:23]  I know.
[00:12:23]  Actually, even though we've seen so much of it, it wasn't until the Gilchrist episode that Penny kind of dropped for me, which is actually, he actually thinks this is not just a way to explain what he means and help people visualize and get the concept.
[00:12:38]  He thinks the metaphor is kind of proof.
[00:12:40]  It's an argumentative proof for what he's claiming.
[00:12:44]  The metaphor feels compelling.
[00:12:46]  Therefore, what he's saying has to be true.
[00:12:49]  So it really does speak to how they think.
[00:12:52]  Yeah.
[00:12:52]  Well, oh, can I also mention, Matt, just early on, I'll mention because I don't think it's notable.
[00:12:58]  It's in our genre.
[00:13:00]  Knowledge Fight declared they're packing up shop.
[00:13:04]  The final episode released, 30 minutes long, and they're ending Knowledge Fight.
[00:13:11]  And it's kind of interesting.
[00:13:14]  I would say, in my case, I've been a long term listener and I did think that they had this issue that basically they used to document, you know, Alex Jones and the kind of goings on in the conspiracy community, the fringes.
[00:13:31]  And you would see what they were talking about show up six months later or whatever in Steve Bannon and Trump.
[00:13:37]  But now there's basically no division between that conspiratorial wing and the.
[00:13:44]  Mainstream Republican MAGA movement, so you can see the kind of that they're talking about just all over the place.
[00:13:52]  So that was one thing that I thought there's like you know, it wasn't really detailing any more a niche, it's kind of talking about just what is visible on the mainstream Republican platform.
[00:14:06]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that.
[00:14:10]  I could see that.
[00:14:11]  Um, like I didn't ever really listen to them that regularly, I only listened to a couple of episodes on your recommendation, and they were fine, I enjoyed them.
[00:14:19]  But how did they talk about Alex Jones over hundreds of episodes?
[00:14:24]  Like, how many new things was there to cover?
[00:14:28]  Oh, there's quite a lot.
[00:14:29]  Because, like, you know, it's like covering conspiracy theorists in general, right?
[00:14:35]  They have these massive lore.
[00:14:38]  And in Alex Jones' case, not only does he have all of the conspiratorial lore, but he actually ran a network for conspiracy theorists.
[00:14:49]  Like, he was promoting.
[00:14:52]  Other figures, and you know, there's all the Sandy Hook stuff and all that.
[00:14:56]  But I mean, he also had people whose careers started there and that were like feeding into other networks.
[00:15:03]  So there was a fair amount to cover from what he was doing.
[00:15:09]  And they did various investigations, like they went back and covered his coverage of 9 11 when it happened, right?
[00:15:16]  And all of his narratives around there, like doing historical treatments and stuff.
[00:15:20]  So I do think there was like, you know, enough.
[00:15:24]  Material, it was.
[00:15:25]  I would have described it at least on Dan's side, you know, the host that we interviewed as a bit of an ethnographic uh adventure.
[00:15:34]  You know, they they went and they immersed themselves on in that topic and got to know it probably better than anyone else that's that's covered it.
[00:15:44]  Yeah, yeah, no, I can see that now.
[00:15:47]  Yeah, I could see it would be okay.
[00:15:49]  I'd kind of forgotten, but yeah, Alex Jones is this is not just him and he's ranting in his show, but there's like a hub.
[00:15:56]  For a whole ecosystem.
[00:15:59]  Ecosystem.
[00:16:00]  Yeah.
[00:16:01]  And the other thing to note is that I respect the way that they ended it because, you know, the Onion, we talked about it, Matt.
[00:16:09]  They bought Infowars or they leased it or something.
[00:16:11]  You know, there's all legal wranglings going over the IP.
[00:16:15]  But basically, the idea is the Onion will take control of that name and brand and they're going to use it to like put out satirical content, which is kind of counter to Alex Jones' agenda.
[00:16:25]  Right.
[00:16:26]  And they're going to feed some of the money back to the Sandy Hook families because otherwise, like Alex Jones had these schemes, you know, to buy.
[00:16:33]  Back the company via shell companies and all this, like goings on, right?
[00:16:38]  So, this was one of the better solutions out of the available options, right?
[00:16:43]  And gives some money for the families because Infowars owes all its money, you know, now to the Sandy Hook families, basically.
[00:16:54]  And Alex Jones has declared bankruptcy and a lot.
[00:16:57]  But as we talked about, Dan had reservations about how possible it is to effectively parody.
[00:17:04]  Alex Jones, and that there might be issues around like not doing it well.
[00:17:09]  But Jordan, the other co host, went on Twitch and did a live stream that was really bombastic and divided the community quite strongly.
[00:17:21]  He basically accused The Onion of like profiting off the Sandy Hook families.
[00:17:27]  How dare all of you!
[00:17:30]  Jesus fucking Christ!
[00:17:34]  Ugh!
[00:17:35]  Fucking hell.
[00:17:36]  How much money do the family members get?
[00:17:38]  Is it an ongoing website?
[00:17:40]  So if they get a chunk of just the merch sales, isn't it your responsibility to keep the site going, even if it's not profitable, even if they're not making merch sales, because you're selling it right now?
[00:17:51]  You're selling the website right now as being for the fucking families.
[00:17:57]  That's what Ben Collins has done on multiple fucking interviews.
[00:18:01]  On multiple fucking interviews, he has sold it as this is being for the fucking families.
[00:18:05]  They will see nothing out of this bullshit.
[00:18:08]  Fuck you.
[00:18:16]  You're being told this.
[00:18:17]  This is what you are being sold.
[00:18:22]  Be clear on that.
[00:18:24]  Not the truth about what they are doing.
[00:18:29]  What they are doing is about what's happening right now.
[00:18:32]  It's about people subscribing to the onion right now.
[00:18:36]  The last time they did this, it was about people subscribing to the onion.
[00:18:39]  It's about people subscribing to the fucking onion right now.
[00:18:42]  Or people buying onion merch right now.
[00:18:46]  Not giving them enough and made reference to them having articles about, you know, the kind of poke fun at the reaction in the wake of school shootings or whatever in America, where, you know, nothing changes, right?
[00:19:01]  And The Onion has this article that always reposts, which is thoughts and prayers as the only nation where this happens declares it's impossible to stop this from happening, right?
[00:19:11]  Like, and I mean, he framed that as them like profiting off the death.
[00:19:16]  Of, you know, like people in school shootings.
[00:19:18]  It's for the memes, man.
[00:19:20]  And it's for subscriptions to The Onion.
[00:19:23]  It's for the memes and it's for subscriptions to The Onion.
[00:19:29]  And let me tell you something.
[00:19:33]  This is how, yeah, let me sum it up a lot better for you.
[00:19:36]  Let me sum it up a lot better and a lot clearer for everyone involved.
[00:19:41]  All right?
[00:19:43]  Why did The Onion have this idea?
[00:19:47]  Is it because it's the funniest thing?
[00:19:50]  No.
[00:19:52]  No, it's not because it's the funniest thing.
[00:19:56]  It's because every time there's a school shooting or something school shooting related, people post an advertisement for the onion.
[00:20:07]  So it was like kind of a morally outraged rant about them not doing things right and they were going to help Alex Jones and all this kind of stuff.
[00:20:17]  And it was quite like a strong, hyperbolic thing at times.
[00:20:21]  And then people were wondering what are they going to do when they.
[00:20:25]  Come back, right?
[00:20:25]  Because they took a little bit of a gap.
[00:20:27]  Are they going to cover Alex Jones at his next place?
[00:20:30]  What are they going to do about the onion parodying and stuff?
[00:20:33]  But the return episode and the final episode was basically them saying they have a difference of opinion around this and some other longer term differences, differences in values, like kind of irreconcilable differences.
[00:20:48]  You were talking about a video that not everybody who listens to our show saw.
[00:20:53]  Sure, but probably a lot of people did, where you had some takes on the onion.
[00:20:57]  I'd say harsh things to say.
[00:20:59]  Still do.
[00:21:00]  And I do think that this video had a lot of response to it.
[00:21:05]  A lot of people had a lot of feelings about it.
[00:21:07]  I had a lot of feelings about it as well.
[00:21:10]  But I did believe that it was part of something that we could work through and we could come to the other side of.
[00:21:18]  Yeah.
[00:21:19]  But so the point that I want to make is that for me, that catalyst, people may believe that to be like a straw that broke the camel's back.
[00:21:28]  And that's not entirely true.
[00:21:30]  No, absolutely not.
[00:21:31]  The video itself, I don't agree with.
[00:21:33]  Almost anything you said, except for the underlying points you were making.
[00:21:38]  I agree with a number of those in terms of righteous passion about things not being fair.
[00:21:47]  But I don't agree with a lot of things that you say.
[00:21:49]  And we deal with that as we have through the course of this show.
[00:21:56]  We have dealt with that.
[00:21:58]  And through discussions that we've had after this and in response to this, it What's really true is it's more clear that we're not there anymore.
[00:22:09]  Yeah.
[00:22:10]  That it's, we're not at a point where you and I can really work through some of our greater differences in the way that is what made the show interesting and fun.
[00:22:20]  And to pretend that we can is going to cause trouble.
[00:22:24]  And I think that it hurts people.
[00:22:26]  And for that reason, you know, this being the kind of catalyst, this rant and the onion and that they're going to go their separate ways and leave, you know, the nine years of work to speak for itself.
[00:22:38]  And, It wasn't cantankerous or anything.
[00:22:41]  They were both there.
[00:22:42]  They were both saying, you know, like, I really respect everything that we've done and all this kind of thing.
[00:22:48]  I mean, I guess I have my bright spot.
[00:22:50]  My bright spot is I love you very much and I'm so grateful.
[00:22:55]  I'm so grateful.
[00:22:56]  Sure.
[00:22:57]  Yep.
[00:22:58]  That's my bright spot.
[00:22:58]  Love you too and I'm grateful as well.
[00:23:01]  Yep.
[00:23:01]  So, anyway, let's not beat around the bush.
[00:23:04]  I think everybody's kind of put it together by now.
[00:23:05]  Yep.
[00:23:06]  We're done.
[00:23:09]  Let's do it the way, let's go out the way we did at QED.
[00:23:12]  Let's forget to show up for the banquet.
[00:23:15]  But basically, you know, this is drawing a line under it.
[00:23:18]  And Dan announced that he's going to go and do, like, he spent, you know, the past decade covering the far right stuff.
[00:23:24]  So he's going to go do some travel blogging type stuff instead or travel podcast.
[00:23:29]  So, and another podcast that ended not exactly similarly, but had like an abrupt ending was the Oh No with Ross and Carrie, where one episode they just recorded separate.
[00:23:45]  Goodbye, things, and then cancel that.
[00:23:48]  And it seemed like there were upcoming projects that had been announced and stuff, so it was quite abrupt.
[00:23:52]  But in that case, there was like a lot more behind the scenes drama that went on than after.
[00:23:57]  So I kind of, I genuinely do think that that's a respectable way to call things to an end, right?
[00:24:07]  That like you have a difference of opinion, there's an event which means that maybe the original point of the podcast is, you know, not as relevant as it once was.
[00:24:20]  And you decide like you want to go do something else.
[00:24:22]  So, so long and thanks for all the fish.
[00:24:25]  All right.
[00:24:25]  So I think that I think we've made a point about the way that neither of us really see moving forward on this.
[00:24:35]  And I don't believe, based on our, you know, some of the fundamental difference that we have and some of the not being really able to work through whatever it is the tension that creates the interesting dynamic between us.
[00:24:52]  I, I, I.
[00:24:55]  It makes it difficult for us to say, okay, well, why don't we try something else?
[00:25:00]  And so I don't know exactly what your plans are or if you have something that you would want to direct people to in the future.
[00:25:09]  I have some projects that I'm working on and I hope people will check them out and will go to them and hopefully they don't suck.
[00:25:19]  We'll see.
[00:25:20]  But we're not going to be working together in the immediate future.
[00:25:26]  Not in the immediate future, no.
[00:25:27]  It's not a hostility, it's not a hate, but it is a.
[00:25:31]  I mean, at the very least, I need a break.
[00:25:32]  I mean, at the very least, I need a break.
[00:25:34]  Isn't the best for all parties.
[00:25:35]  For right now, especially, yeah.
[00:25:37]  Well, I don't think this can ever happen to us because we have not foolishly.

=== Avoiding Reactive Tunnel Vision (15:13) ===

[00:25:44]  That's right.
[00:25:45]  There's that.
[00:25:45]  There's that.
[00:25:46]  And we haven't foolishly shackled our horse to just one guru.
[00:25:53]  We embrace them all, and they keep coming, thick and fast, don't they?
[00:25:57]  So there's never going to be an end, it's never going to stop.
[00:26:00]  Um, until one of us gets too old and tired and unsober to continue, which one of us?
[00:26:12]  I wonder what will happen.
[00:26:13]  Could be healer, could be healer, but could be healer.
[00:26:16]  Yeah, you just gotta keep me sweet, keep playing your cards right, Kevin.
[00:26:20]  I'll stick around.
[00:26:21]  Oh, is that the way it goes?
[00:26:23]  Well, well, yeah, like the thing that we've talked about in interviews and other stuff is you know, you and I do the podcast primarily because.
[00:26:32]  We enjoy it, right?
[00:26:34]  Because these are things that we talk about and find interesting and stuff independently of ever recording a podcast.
[00:26:43]  So, if it were the case that we just became super depressed and it was something we hated doing, I mean, we wouldn't.
[00:26:51]  Oh, God, no.
[00:26:52]  Oh, God, no.
[00:26:53]  No, no.
[00:26:53]  This is my whole philosophy of life.
[00:26:56]  Like, the whole reason I work at a university and I don't work somewhere else is because I've structured my life around.
[00:27:02]  Doing things that I enjoy doing.
[00:27:05]  And this is a natural extension of that.
[00:27:07]  And it is fun, right?
[00:27:09]  Like, we're just talking about the Gilchrist episode.
[00:27:13]  And by the way, before you say you don't want to listen to Sense Makers anymore, don't forget we have Meeting in the Meta Crisis coming up.
[00:27:20]  Don't worry.
[00:27:22]  I always forget.
[00:27:22]  I'm like, you know, I forget after a week or so.
[00:27:24]  I'm like, I'll be getting to hear from them again.
[00:27:26]  Let's hear from them again.
[00:27:29]  But, you know, by the end, yes, maybe we're a bit irritated and had enough, you know, but it's like eating a big meal.
[00:27:35]  You know, yes, yeah.
[00:27:37]  Afterwards, you get the check, and you're like, What's this?
[00:27:39]  Why did I pay for all of this?
[00:27:40]  I don't want this.
[00:27:42]  Um, I thought you were gonna go with the feeling of feel like you're full up that you meant too much, but well, you are.
[00:27:49]  Well, you are.
[00:27:49]  It costs too much.
[00:27:50]  It costs too much.
[00:27:51]  No, I meant like you're so full and you're not hungry at all, so you can't.
[00:27:55]  Why am I?
[00:27:56]  Why do they do this?
[00:27:59]  Um, but um, but it was interesting.
[00:28:01]  Like, I it is like it's someone like McGilchrist who I didn't know anything about before we started.
[00:28:07]  You described it as at the beginning, they're like an interesting little puzzle.
[00:28:11]  Like, what's the deal with this guy?
[00:28:13]  And I didn't, you know, I had no prior expectations going in.
[00:28:19]  And then you dig around and the mists begin to clear, and you're like, I think I know what kind of guy this is.
[00:28:25]  And but you know, he's a bit different in this way and that way, and then you find out they're into demons, and then it you know that that's usually how it ends, but yeah, it's usually but but it is.
[00:28:38]  I mean, he's not just about the demons, obviously, but you know, part sense maker, part religious, you know, person, part part kind of the old fashioned like English pastor type, yeah, character.
[00:28:53]  He he yearns for you know a simpler time and so on, and so so much of it you can identify with.
[00:29:00]  Or some of it you can identify with.
[00:29:01]  Some of it is, you think it's silly.
[00:29:03]  Some of it's quite sophisticated.
[00:29:05]  Other times you look at the sophistication and then it turns out that, you know, even though a lot of big words are being used and a lot of philosophers are being cited, it isn't really very sensible or reasonable.
[00:29:18]  But it's always an interesting journey.
[00:29:20]  So, yeah, I'm still enjoying it.
[00:29:22]  Yeah.
[00:29:23]  I do also think that, like, you take someone like Ian McGilchrist that, like, you know, I went and I do this.
[00:29:31]  In part because the speed at which I consume podcasts is much higher than most people.
[00:29:36]  But like, I listen to a bunch of other, Ian McGill, Christoph, right?
[00:29:39]  That's where we got the Demon clips from.
[00:29:41]  And the thing is that, you know, the format of the show is supposed to be that we're taking a single piece of content, usually, and like focusing on what's in that.
[00:29:53]  But our argument is that often what people talk and the way that they argue carries across, you know, other materials.
[00:30:00]  So it's like, you know, random.
[00:30:03]  Probabilistic sampling, right?
[00:30:04]  Yeah, it's surprisingly representative.
[00:30:06]  People are surprisingly consistent.
[00:30:09]  Yeah.
[00:30:09]  And I can say that, like the Ian McGilchrist thing, yes, there's different kinds of presentations, right?
[00:30:16]  He's not always going to bring up demons controlling AI.
[00:30:20]  It very much depends on the company, right?
[00:30:22]  That's a topic you only bring up with certain special sense readers.
[00:30:26]  But I can very readily recognize his motifs now.
[00:30:33]  You hear it in almost every appearance.
[00:30:35]  It seemed like I saw new clips of Scott Galloway and I immediately recognized, oh, yeah, that's what he does.
[00:30:41]  That's how he frames things and stuff like that.
[00:30:43]  So, yeah, I think it is interesting.
[00:30:46]  Like, I mean, if you wanted to, you could go and detail Stefan Molyneux's horror show of a back catalog, right?
[00:30:55]  Thousands and thousands of episodes.
[00:30:57]  If you did that, you would find all these unique horrors that nobody had came across before, right?
[00:31:02]  Where he's been particularly horrific in ways that you didn't anticipate.
[00:31:06]  I mean, we took a random couple of episodes.
[00:31:08]  And we discovered a whole bunch of ones I've never heard anybody mention.
[00:31:12]  But, like, at some point, what Stefan Molyneux does is fairly well known.
[00:31:19]  So, if you're doing that, it is mostly because you want to, I don't know, right?
[00:31:24]  Maybe you want to explore the cosmology of a particular character.
[00:31:29]  Yeah.
[00:31:29]  And that, like, Knowledge Fight did with Alex Strange.
[00:31:32]  And that's fine.
[00:31:33]  But it is all variations on a theme at some point.
[00:31:36]  Yes.
[00:31:37]  And Alex, I think, like, in their case, to return it to that point, They've done more than you could have ever expected anyone to do documenting that world.
[00:31:47]  And some of their coverage is excellent.
[00:31:50]  Like the stuff they did over the Sandy Hook trials, the depositions and stuff.
[00:31:55]  That's what I listened to.
[00:31:56]  That was really good.
[00:31:57]  Very informative.
[00:31:58]  Yeah.
[00:31:59]  That was incredibly good.
[00:32:00]  And that was, I might say, the peak in some ways, you know, in terms of the analytical content, because they were covering stuff that nobody else was showing.
[00:32:09]  But overall, that kind of thing is like useful for people to be doing.
[00:32:17]  Doing it if it's like draining your soul.
[00:32:19]  And I kind of also respect that Dan is now going on to do something completely different because it's, yeah, it's just, it's nice to see that they don't feel pigeonholed that, you know, they have to do another thing, which is, okay, now we're going to cover another figure in the same way.
[00:32:37]  Like if you're not feeling that, like, yeah, don't do it.
[00:32:42]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:42]  I mean, you know, do it, you know, do it any way you like, basically.
[00:32:46]  Everyone should do it any way they like.
[00:32:47]  But one, Thing I like about the way we do it is that we do approach them as interesting little puzzles to be understood, and then if they deserve it, make fun of them.
[00:33:04]  But that comes later, right?
[00:33:06]  Sometimes we might do that.
[00:33:09]  But I mean, they are like strange fruit, right?
[00:33:13]  They are exotic flowers, right?
[00:33:14]  And that's why we find them interesting, right?
[00:33:17]  And I think you do learn something from.
[00:33:20]  Unusual characters, a bit like, um, oh, what's his name?
[00:33:23]  That documentarian he just did.
[00:33:25]  Oh, Louis Ferru.
[00:33:27]  Like, you sort of learn something from the edges from these extreme examples.
[00:33:33]  I think it is good.
[00:33:33]  And so, I think we approach it from the point of view of curiosity, even if the curiosity is what the fuck.
[00:33:41]  Um, but that's it.
[00:33:44]  But you know, I know that you could approach this from the point of view of like activism, right?
[00:33:50]  Which is these people are terrible, they're doing terrible things.
[00:33:53]  They're anti vaxxers and anti vax is bad and it should be stopped, right?
[00:33:57]  Yes.
[00:33:57]  They're arguing for a stupid version of consciousness.
[00:34:03]  They're reactionary consumption.
[00:34:04]  White body dualism.
[00:34:05]  We have to smack that down or whatever.
[00:34:06]  And, you know, do what you want.
[00:34:08]  Everyone's free to do what they want.
[00:34:10]  But I think if I had that attitude, I would burn out very quickly.
[00:34:16]  But I think you could still have good things.
[00:34:19]  For instance, I think being informative about stuff like Lab Leak or what the kind of narratives that anti vaxxers are doing, you name it.
[00:34:27]  I think you can still have a positive effect on the world simply by approaching things from the point of view of curiosity.
[00:34:35]  Yeah.
[00:34:36]  Yeah.
[00:34:37]  And, you know, like you say, I think the general thing is that in most cases, you're never going to win against like human irrationality or tribalism or any of these kind of things, right?
[00:34:52]  You can make dents in individuals or, you know, point out hypocrisies and all that kind of thing.
[00:34:58]  But, The appeal of conspiratorial narratives and stuff is just, it runs deep.
[00:35:05]  So I think you have to be realistic about what you can ultimately achieve and be at peace with that.
[00:35:13]  Like, I don't think when we are dead that there'll be an end to gurus or anything like that.
[00:35:18]  No, there'll be new ones and they'll be doing new things.
[00:35:22]  And that's just, you know, that's the nature of humans and the way that we're organized.
[00:35:27]  But it doesn't mean that it's wrong.
[00:35:29]  To try and, you know, point out what Russell Brand is up to or any of that shit.
[00:35:34]  Like, no, I think it can still also be valid for people to try.
[00:35:39]  Right.
[00:35:40]  Right.
[00:35:40]  Like, yeah.
[00:35:42]  So, you know, whatever your thing be, it's up to each individual person.
[00:35:48]  But I do think that like activist style approaches can lead to burnout pretty quickly.
[00:35:54]  Yeah.
[00:35:55]  Yeah.
[00:35:55]  Like, yeah, it's kind of connected to having, I guess, calibrated expectations about human psychology, which you mentioned, Ryan.
[00:36:02]  Like, there are some things that are human constants, like being tribal, status seeking, motivated reasoning, hypocrites, and, you know, enjoying comforting illusions and so on, right?
[00:36:14]  This is stuff that like, People are always gonna do, but that's not to say the world can't get better, right?
[00:36:20]  Because the world has gotten better, demonstrably so, right, over the last thousand years or so, and it'll probably continue getting better in fits and starts.
[00:36:30]  So, you know, I think, um, I think there's a certain mental set which is that if you just destroy the bad things, you know what I mean, get rid of these bad people or rectify this injustice or whatever, then, then sort of people are perfectible, and that if we create the perfect set of Principles and systems or social conventions or whatever, then we'll live in peace and harmony and everything will be fine.
[00:36:56]  And I guess I don't believe that.
[00:36:59]  No, because you're working against human nature.
[00:37:02]  But it's not a kind of fatalism or cynicism either, right?
[00:37:07]  There is a middle way, right?
[00:37:08]  Which is, yeah, things can incrementally get a little bit better.
[00:37:12]  But like anti vax, just to take one example, that's been around ever since they invented vaccinations.
[00:37:18]  And it'll probably, Around for the foreseeable future.
[00:37:23]  And, you know, you're not going to eliminate that kind of thing.
[00:37:27]  So you have to just calibrate what you can do.
[00:37:30]  I mean, you should do what you can, but yeah.
[00:37:34]  Yeah, but that's so like our message there, for example, you know, Matt and I are very firm advocates for vaccination.
[00:37:41]  You won't find firmer, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:37:45]  And against anti vaccination.
[00:37:47]  So it isn't like the moral is don't.
[00:37:51]  Don't bother trying to combat anti vax stuff, yeah.
[00:37:54]  Right, we have tried demonstrably, right?
[00:37:58]  But, but, but you're right that, like, ultimately, I think it's much more healthy and realistic to accept that even doing that, you're just not going to ever completely defeat the appeal of anti vaccine narratives because you know they're basically digging into naturalistic fallacy and concerns about corporations and so on and so forth.
[00:38:22]  So, yeah, yeah, but.
[00:38:24]  I think the other danger too, if you take a kind of a crusade attitude to the bad things, the things that you're criticizing or whatever, which is that you can get rather reactive and you can get a kind of tunnel vision where the thing that you are focusing on, which is legitimately bad, it's not a good thing, becomes a little bit all encompassing.
[00:38:49]  And you lose a sense of perspective, I think.
[00:38:53]  And you can see that.
[00:38:55]  And you can see that on whatever the political persuasion.
[00:38:58]  I can think of left wing activist examples, but I can also think of the anti woke.
[00:39:03]  Oh, yes.
[00:39:04]  You know, like these people, they started off in some cases just liberal, moderate, centrist type people and progressively became extremists and really unreasonable people.
[00:39:18]  And I mean, you know, some of them were probably unreasonable to start with.
[00:39:22]  You might say some of them were hiding their power level, as our friend Aaron might say.
[00:39:26]  But I think many of them legitimately.
[00:39:29]  Basically, radicalize themselves precisely from the same sort of psychological dynamic, right?
[00:39:36]  Which is that the thing that they observe that's bad, they obsess over it, and it gets magnified to the exclusion of everything else.
[00:39:44]  And that loss of perspective means that they're now on board with everything that is anti, which is not that, you know, which is not good, right?
[00:39:54]  MAGA is not good.
[00:39:55]  No.
[00:39:56]  So, yeah.
[00:39:57]  Well, yeah.
[00:39:58]  And that, I think, is an example where our approach is different than some others, because, like in our case, for example, Yes, gurus have become more influential with the rise of populist movements and so on.
[00:40:13]  But they're not the only thing that matters.
[00:40:17]  You can look at things around economics or history or trends in media or all sorts of different approaches to things.
[00:40:26]  And the psychological guru dynamics are just a component of what's going on with any movement or moment in history.
[00:40:36]  So we find it interesting.
[00:40:38]  But it isn't by any means the only or most important thing that is out there, right?
[00:40:44]  But on the other hand, listeners, if you think Chris is wrong and you think gurus are the most important thing and have to be stopped, subscribe to our Patreon, come in at the top tier, $10 a month.
[00:40:54]  You can contribute to the cause, all right?

=== Support Us on Patreon (02:51) ===

[00:40:57]  He's not necessarily right.
[00:40:58]  He could be wrong.
[00:41:00]  I think best to be on the safe side.
[00:41:03]  Yeah, I'd prefer they didn't subscribe if they're going to be annoying to find out, to be honest.
[00:41:09]  But sure, sure.
[00:41:11]  Come one, come all.
[00:41:12]  You know the problem with the people who subscribe to our Patreon, Chris?
[00:41:16]  You know, what's the problem with them?
[00:41:17]  Why do you want to tell them that?
[00:41:19]  You know, it really grinds my gears about them.
[00:41:21]  I mean, I thought that the Patreon would be this little walled garden where I, the influencer, just get to have, you know, universe, you know, just strut around like a big deal, right?
[00:41:32]  That's what.
[00:41:32]  Like a big cock, right?
[00:41:33]  Yeah, big big cock.
[00:41:34]  Yeah, strutting around.
[00:41:35]  Shaking your tail, fellas.
[00:41:36]  That's it.
[00:41:37]  That's right.
[00:41:37]  So we started up the little thing, Matt's Foodie Corner, which was mainly a place meant for me to post.
[00:41:44]  My efforts at cooking and for then for people to congratulate me on how awesome it is.
[00:41:50]  I don't know that's what its purpose was, but sure, carry on, carry on.
[00:41:53]  Okay.
[00:41:54]  In your head, yes, that's what it was, right?
[00:41:56]  Matt's foodie corner.
[00:41:58]  I thought it was a way to get the food posts out of the being feed, but yes, carry on.
[00:42:03]  But it seems that there's a strong correlation between guru enjoyers and like professional chefs, like professional bakers, people that go to French restaurants in Paris.
[00:42:15]  And take photographs of their food, basically outdoing me at every turn.
[00:42:20]  And yeah, so, you know, if you're really good at, you know, baking and maybe stay out of the maybe, yeah, just call your jets.
[00:42:30]  Just call your jets.
[00:42:33]  I don't know what message you're sending to the patrons like that, but you can, you guys can post.
[00:42:38]  I don't mind seeing your nice food.
[00:42:39]  I live in Japan, so I just, I'm perfectly content with all the food that I enjoy.
[00:42:45]  Seen the delights of culinary traditions across the world, but uh, for much of that, there that's him.
[00:42:52]  Well, look, now, Chris, before we flood up, we have to get to uh, inerring grievances, um, stupid things we've seen on the internet.
[00:43:00]  I've got a couple of things.
[00:43:01]  Did you have any any uh, topics you want to raise?
[00:43:04]  Well, I know, Matt, that just now we've been you know talking about how we accept all these different ways, different approaches that people have.
[00:43:13]  We never dare disparage any of them as being better or worse, we simply exist in pure.
[00:43:19]  Transcendent bliss, accepting everybody as they are, come what may.
[00:43:23]  However, Michael Shermer isn't that, he's a self styled skeptic.
[00:43:28]  He actually has a publication called The Skeptic.
[00:43:31]  I think it's fair to say neither of us is a big fan of his approach to things, but I believe recently you came across some particularly.
[00:43:41]  If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at patreon.comslash decodingthegurus.

=== Full Episodes and Bonus Shows (00:39) ===

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