Still in the land of the free and restocked with important new insights from his US travels, Matt is confronted with the Gurusphere's predictably depressing reaction to the election. And what's that we hear in the distance... is it a honking car?Supplementary Material 1800:00 Matt's American Ethnography10:59 Eric Weinstein is waiting for the call14:32 Huberman, Krauss, and MAGA Sycophancy18:39 Boghossian and other would-be Intellectual Clerics of the MAGA regime22:52 Sam Harris criticises Elon Musk, Joe Rogan, and MAGA32:05 The Fifth Column, The Free Press and World Weary Both Sides-ing53:19 Election Reflections: Macro and Micro Causes01:04:40 Longer Term Trends01:10:08 Sarah Haider and the Hip Vibe of the New Right01:24:00 Richard Dawkins Dual Nature01:31:08 A Plea to Sean Carroll and our Listeners01:33:06 An important note on BoulderingThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1hr 36 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurusLinksEric's phone is not ringingHuberman making his pitchKrauss being a sycophant to ElonBoghossian's lack of interest in protests in HungarySam Harris Making Sense 391: The ReckoningA Special Place in Hell: Adios Amigos: The Special Place FinaleThat graph mentioned about the loss of support for incumbent regimesDawkins being a fool on TwitterThe Fifth Column: #234 - Come On and Zoom! (Wagnerian Opera Edition)
Hello and welcome to Decoding the Guru's Supplementary Material Edition, where the psychologist Matthew Brown and the anthropologist Christopher Kavanaugh, that's me, are able to cut loose, let our locks down, kick back and relax,
and gaze upon the mysteries of the guru's fear as they swirl around us.
Swirl, Matt, swirl around us.
And as usual, for the coming months, Matt is in...
Good old US of A. Howdy, partner.
Howdy, howdy, howdy.
I'm here in St. Louis, Chris.
I'm in the throbbing, beating heart of the American Midwest.
It's a groovy town.
It's a groovy town.
I've only just got in here this evening, but we went and had some food.
I'm going to get some...
Did you have some grits?
I've had grits elsewhere, Chris.
I've had grits elsewhere.
But I'm going to get some jazz and blues, meet up with some patrons here in St. Louis.
It's going to be good.
Everyone seems calm.
The post-election thing, everyone seems a little bit depressed.
I don't know if that's normal.
Maybe it's got something to do with the election.
Who knows?
Oh, well, that's good to hear because everyone online is losing their collective shit in various different ways.
It's nice to hear that the people in the actual real world are carrying on listening to jazz music and whatnot.
You know, good to hear.
Well, at this particular time, in real time, We're hearing like one Trump nominee for positions after another and never has the clowns emerging from the clown car before been more apt.
Oh, there's Bozo.
Honk, honk.
Oh, it's turtles.
I tell you what, when I saw Matt Getz's beaming face being nominated for something or other, Department of Justice or Education, who knows?
Is he attorney general?
He's attorney general.
I think so.
Something involving justice.
Now we know, Chris, how the Romans felt when Caligula appointed his horse as a member of the Senate.
Now we know.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I do appreciate a certain schadenfreude for the various heterodox and, you know, the kind of MAGA apologists.
But not pure MAGA cultists.
They're kind of like just always saying, "Oh, the liberal media is misrepresenting Trump or whatnot."
A few of them have noticed the honks coming from the car and the people poking their head out the window and they're saying, "Wait a minute.
Is that car full of clowns?
Is this clown approaching?"
But I do feel this is what Trump promised.
He promised a bunch of Fecking morons.
And he's delivering it.
And I imagine Jordan Peterson is ecstatic.
He's probably just disappointed at how moderate the people are.
Because Tulsi Gabbard, some of them have to go for a Senate confirmation.
Now it's the Republicans that are the majority in the Senate.
So we'll see how that goes.
But Tulsi...
I think the director of intelligence is the position.
And notably, this is a concerning appointment, given that Tulsi has a long and decorated history as an apologist for various totalitarian regimes.
Assad, most notably.
I saw today, Matt, people were sharing a clip where three days after the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, Tulsi made a tweet urging Zelensky.
To respond with the spirit of aloha to the Russian reverence.
So, great news.
Great news.
Great news.
As we hear more and more of atrocities and executions by Russian soldiers, I mean, that's a very reasonable thing to ask of the Ukrainians while they're being invaded.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not a great time.
It's not a great time for Americans.
But, you know, I mean, I don't know.
They soldier on.
It's easy to...
Let politics overwhelm your life.
But, you know, I'm out here.
I'm in the real America.
I'm in the heartland.
Yeah, you're eating burgers.
I'm eating a lot of burgers.
You're walking here.
I'm walking here.
That's what I'm saying to Bill.
I'm walking here.
And they go, yep, you are.
Go ahead.
Yeah, no, Chris, I mean, look, I have many, many reflections on the United States.
Probably too much to fit in here.
But have I already said?
There's two things that Americans really do well, and that is...
Hamburgers.
The hamburger and...
Do you remember the second one?
Fried chicken.
Yeah, they do other things as well.
They make F-35 stealth jets and things, but mainly it's the fried chicken and the burgers that I...
You just cannot help but respect how much effort goes into it.
It's really good.
It's better.
Like, you think you know...
I know good chicken.
What the hell are you talking about?
So one of our patrons was like, this is Karaage erasure that Matt is filling out on the podcast.
And it is, you know, Japan has its very good fried chicken as well.
So I'm just saying, don't be an American imperialist about this, okay?
Oh, Chris, remind me, what's the addictive conveni chicken called in Japan again?
What's it called?
Famichiki. Famichiki.
Yeah, yeah.
So an Australian chef that I really like, I've forgotten his name, but he cooks everything and he cooked Famichiki.
He cooked Famichiki.
I saw it.
I sent you the link.
It seemed a bit elaborate.
I'm a pirate.
Famicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicicic 30-second TikTok where he's like, you know, you put this in and you fry.
But it was like a 20-minute measuring art, all these things.
I was like, is there that much that goes into it?
You think it's easy to make because it's sold in a convenience store.
You think the process is simple.
But it's like this is factory processed food, Chris.
There's many steps in the conveyor belt.
Yeah, seemingly so.
So, yeah.
Well, Matt, look.
Okay, so we've established, you know, people continue on in the real world.
America's food has some culinary specialties which you're enjoying.
And now, we know about the wildlife, right?
We know squirrels are good.
What other insights have you got for us?
Anything?
You know, what kind of things?
Things that maybe the Americans don't see?
You're like, you know, the anthropologist of the 21st century.
You're there.
What are you bringing back to the world that the Americans don't see about themselves that the rest of the world needs to know?
I know.
I've been keeping my mind open for these sorts of hot takes to sort of reveal something to them that they don't know already.
Yeah.
But there's very little, to be honest.
It is pretty much everything is on the tin.
They're much like Australians, except a bit weirder.
That's it.
That's pretty much how I would describe them.
I mean, one thing that did strike me, Chris, is what a big place America is.
We were at Kansas City yesterday.
Kansas City.
Do you know Kansas City?
I know that Dorothy was not there anymore at one point.
You're thinking of Kansas, the state.
I was aware of Kansas, the state.
Wow.
I didn't even know there was such a place as Kansas City.
I didn't even know it existed.
It's a big city, Chris.
It's a big city and it's an impressive city, actually.
Yeah, it's a big deal.
And so I feel like I've got a feeling of what a bear moth.
The United States is.
It is actually a pretty big deal.
It is huge.
There are cities you've never heard of that are bigger and better than the city that you're from.
What?
Bigger and better than Belfast?
Yes.
Very much so.
I'm getting a visceral feeling of why America is such a big deal on the geopolitical stage.
So, you know, well done.
Well done, America.
Good job.
They had a whole continent to run around in and make their playthings.
So, you know, they had an easy run.
They're playing on easy mode.
But, you know, still well done nevertheless.
That's my take.
Well, I'm still finding it hard to conceive of a city that could be more...
Advanced culturally and technologically than Belfast.
Yeah, that blows my mind, just that idea, the very concept.
We were just talking before the podcast started about potential taglines for the cities, and I think Belfast could be, it's not as bad as people say.
It's got a lot better.
That would be...
Good ways to advertise it.
So, yeah, I should be on the tourist board for Belfast.
I could give them some good slogans.
Well, it's not known as a big tourist destination, Belfast.
It's true.
But I've been to...
What is it?
You have tourists in Belfast?
Really?
We've got so many tourists, we can't...
Deal with them.
Come on.
Come on.
Be honest.
It's true.
It's a popular tourist location.
Who's going to go to Belfast when Paris is right there?
Why would you go?
Look, there's many famous...
Where was the Titanic made?
There's a Titanic museum.
There's the Game of Thrones tour where you can tour sites that were around the Game of Thrones.
You can take the Troubles tour.
You can take a bus around and see the bullet holes and the bomb places and the sectarian murals.
There's tons of things to see.
That sounds like a fun family holiday.
Yeah.
I'm shocked you don't understand.
Like, Belfast is a premier destination for all the ghosts.
It is!
Don't laugh.
Okay, there's Bushmills Distillery.
How about that?
Well, that's not in Belfast.
Oh, okay.
That's not in Belfast, is it?
Oh, well.
Or the Dance Causeway, which is also...
I mean, it's not in Belfast, but you can all get to them, at least straightforwardly, from Belfast.
I get the picture.
Belfast is near some places the tourists might want to visit.
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so don't be smart yet, Matt.
Yeah.
So can I tell you as well something amusing?
It's not amusing.
It's depressing.
But it comes with a sliver of amusement on the side.
So do you remember we had Eric offering his pre-election pitch for being in the administration?
And then he was getting slammed by Mike Cernovich for, you know, not being properly MAGA.
Do you remember this?
I remember that.
I remember the pitch.
I remember the pitch.
Now, it's the post-election period, Matt.
The phone still isn't ringing.
It's still not ringing.
Oh, no.
Poor Eric.
Eric has released a tweet lamenting this fact.
And it's impossible to parody Eric because he just does it better himself.
So listen to this.
For whatever reason, the campaign doesn't reach out much.
I don't know why, but that is an observation.
So I don't want to take crap for observing it.
I think that's the Sernovich rejoinder.
There are many dissident experts out here.
Their phones are not ringing.
And when you point this out, it is treated the wrong way.
Boohoo!
Everyone has a handout.
It's so dumb.
It's funny.
Because these are exactly the people who have stood up for...
Free for 30 plus years.
Just effing call them.
They precede MAGA.
Bottom line, there aren't enough hardcore MAGA among the experts who know where the bodies are buried to run and fix the government.
But there are dissident experts everywhere who will work even better in these positions.
People who are aligned with the idea of clearing out the rot and who aren't famously aligned with ideology.
Patriots, if you will.
And he goes on.
And he's referring to other people, of course, Chris.
He's not referring to himself.
No.
No, well, he does mention, he goes far to try and find other experts that he might recommend.
He's not so gauche to speak about himself, but he is quite fixated on how the phone isn't ringing with these non-MAGA dissidents.
And he says, the transition team doesn't understand the dissident expert landscape.
And doesn't seem to care to either.
It's about loyalty.
I don't know if that is true because I've never spoken to anyone in the campaign.
If it is wrong, then just place some calls out here.
But I'm not hearing from anyone I know among the heterodox experts.
Hey, I just got a call from the incoming administration.
I hear those calls coming to other people, but not the quiet folk.
Oh, dear.
I know.
I feel like they could just give him a position.
Like, come on!
There must be some random government position.
Come on!
They're giving positions to basically any idiot at this point.
They're even inventing positions at the Doge department.
Government efficiency.
So they're inventing positions really nilly.
I think they could invent one for Eric.
Come on.
He's already got the jacket.
No budget required for him.
He's wearing the jacket.
He's sleeping in the jacket just in case he gets the call.
Just in case the helicopter lands on the front lawn.
Oh dear.
I know, poor Eric.
I mean, Eric would be doing this if it was the Kamala cabinet or whatever, right?
This was always what he was going to do.
And similarly, I've been appalled, not surprised, but like impressively appalled at the sycophancy in the heterodox folk.
Now, there are, of course, part of, you know, like Red Scare or whatever, of course, they're going to be excited about this.
But I'm talking about people like...
Huberman.
Oh, Huberman, you know, science advocate, Matt, podcaster who likes to stay out of politics.
He was tweeting out about how the structure of federal health and science institutions is about to change and how he believes, you know, that this could be a transformative moment and that people should buckle up for the changes.
And somebody was saying, you know, That they support him as a voice in the new administration for health policy.
And he says the person's name was Nicole Rusty.
Thank you, Nicole.
I care very much about what happens to NIH funding for research and the allocation within that bracket, especially the need for more and larger modular R01s.
And I do believe it can happen with the current funding margins if certain reorg takes place.
This is one of 14 items listed thus far.
Right.
So this is Huberman making this pitch, you know, that, you know, we shouldn't be out here prejudging what the Trump administration is going to do for science.
You know, we should be open to these changes.
And I'm here.
I've got ideas.
Or Lawrence Krauss, the physicist, he tweeted out, get the DEI out of science funding.
Elon Musk, my newest piece in National Post.
Then he quote tweeted and said, Very pleased that Elon Musk emailed me back to say, definitely!
Happy to support his efforts in this regard.
And somebody responded, noting that his friend Sean Carroll should take his attitude.
And he said, yep, definitely.
But Matt, that's it.
They're all phoning, you know, like casting out their lines to try and say, I could have a role here.
I'm on board with reorganizations.
I'm non-ideologically aligned about that.
You look at Trump's incoming cabinet.
Imagine trying to be a climate scientist under the Trump regime.
I strongly anticipate that you won't be allowed to talk about climate science, at least in terms of emphasizing global warming.
You know, there's going to be so many things that are anti-science.
And you can see that from the simple fact of the attention and praise given to RFK Jr., a noted anti-vaccine advocate.
But none of these...
Science advocates seem to be that concerned about that.
It's just, yes, the DEI, it's gotten out of hand.
That's the real issue here.
Yeah, I know.
And I've seen Sabine Hossenfelder make similar kinds of comments there.
I mean, actually, Sean Carroll does stand out as someone that they don't particularly like because he doesn't follow along with this particular anti-institutional And I've been listening to a fair bit of Sean since we covered him,
just for fun, because I've been doing a lot of traveling and I've got a lot of time to kill.
And Chris, he's good.
You know, he is a rare case of someone who is actually ethical about these things and not self-aggrandizing and not tapping into this conspiratorial, paranoid, anti-institutional line that others do.
But, you know, it is sad and weird that he's unusual.
He's a unicorn, Chris.
And when we started this podcast, we weren't picking gurus to cover based on how much they were part of this MAGA Trump train.
In fact, my mental model was that they were these eccentric, iconoclastic, kind of individualistic type people who might be frauds and might be dodgy in all kinds of ways, but I wasn't picking them based on their propensity to be political toadies.
And what's really interesting to me is how much that is the case.
Like, they have all moved together in this one direction.
And I guess the answer is that these people are opportunists.
They are frauds and they are opportunists very much like Applebaum talks about these toadies in the Eastern European context with new dictatorships coming online.
These are people, like Eric says, very explicitly.
He's waiting in the wings.
He's got his jacket on.
He's ready to do what's required and sing from the hymn sheet if only someone will please give him a nice, comfy job, right?
Well, similarly, a good illustration of that exact character, Peter Boghossian, right?
Someone who styles himself as a heterodox intellectual philosopher who was forced out of academia because of his out-there...
Opinions and his willingness to challenge orthodoxies.
But he has, for quite a few years, been going on these paid speaking tours in Hungary, right?
And not just going to Hungary and talking about the problems in the West and how important, you know, Orban's regime and whatnot is, but actually in America, going on podcasts and kind of promoting Orban's regime, right?
And I remember...
For example, he was complaining about some topic about speech restrictions or whatnot.
And I pointed out to him a large protest that had taken place because of Hungary's repressive policies around education, where loads of teachers all had come out.
There was a big protest about urban government restrictions on the media and education systems and whatnot.
And Boghossian responded to it saying, Oh yeah, this looks concerning, you know, I'll look into that and maybe need to talk about it.
And of course, never did, Matt, right?
Never did.
But Bogossian now as well has now moved to presenting himself as a candidate for the Secretary of Education.
He's, you know, tweeting out and getting retweeted by various idiots, Rob Schneider and whatnot, saying that he could.
He could reform the education system in the US.
So it is what you say that like the main thing is kind of this desire to get attention and power.
And yeah, like it's the level of sycophancy cannot be overstated.
And also the willingness to kind of abuse yourself to like meet yourself appealing to these political or business leaders.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
It's a strange characteristic for renegade intellectuals to be so sycophantic.
Yes.
Indeed.
Indeed.
Yeah.
It is contradictory.
And I think I'm influenced a little bit by these history books I've been reading about the 14th and 15th centuries.
But it is like a pre-democratic, a pre-modern kind of state of mind.
This worship of these sort of leaders.
Whether it's Joe Rogan or Donald Trump and this whole ecosystem of sycophants and flatterers who suck up to them, you know, hoping for a favor in the court.
And this is probably the wrong thing to say, but like in the Middle Ages, the peasants, right?
The rabble, right?
Us slobs.
We would worship these people, right?
These people at the very top.
They thought the king was ordained by God, that he loved his people, that he was there to guide us all to some sort of beautiful future.
And we see the same kind of thing with this populism.
And, like, I know it's a long bow to draw, but I just feel that there is something fundamentally unmodern, undemocratic about this entire ecosystem.
It feels pre-modern.
It feels feudal.
In the way they operate.
And maybe that's just a way to understand what's going on.
Anyway.
Yeah.
And, you know, I also, Matt, will point out that, you know, we are critical of Sam Harris at various times and for various reasons.
And he did...
A podcast episode in the aftermath of the election result.
And as you might anticipate, the kind of first half of it is him talking about his bug burrs, the progressive left, the mochism and trans ideology that led to the alienation, right?
He does warn at the start about people in the post-election period pegging everything to their pet.
But then he does go on to do it.
But nonetheless, I think he gets credit at least for flagging up at the start.
But then in the second half, unlike the people that we're talking about, he does go on to criticize people like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk.
And I have something that I really must say to Joe Rogan and the other podcasters who interviewed Trump.
You can't have it both ways.
You don't get to say that this was the podcast election and that these long-form conversations are incredibly important for people to hear.
So that they can make up their mind about who to vote for.
And then take no journalistic responsibility whatsoever to get your facts straight or to expose obvious lies when you're talking to the most prolific liar on earth.
You don't get to spout endless conspiracy theories about how our election system is dangerously broken and vulnerable to fraud.
And then when your candidate wins, say, oh, well, Trump's victory was just too big for them to rig the election.
No.
How about realizing that there was nothing significantly wrong with our election system in the first place, and that all these concerns about fraud were lies coming from your candidate and his surrogates, and they were telling these lies in preparation for not accepting the results of the election had he lost.
And you let your platform be used for that purpose by people who were willing to shatter our politics and even risk provoking a civil war.
Out of personal self-interest.
Every podcaster who interviewed Trump managed to make it seem like all the bad things that have ever been said about him were the result of some left-wing elite media conspiracy.
To interview Trump or his surrogates responsibly would have required that you put them on the spot for any number of odious things he has said and done, and for things he said he intends to do in his second term, all of which are well documented.
and many of which should be totally disqualifying in a presidential candidate.
It's not enough to just turn on the microphones and have a conversation.
And it doesn't matter that it's three hours long, if all you're going to do is launder the man's lies by ignoring them in the interests of maintaining good vibes.
There is a complacency and an amorality to the way you approach this that was actively
Well said.
Wow.
That's well said, Chris.
That's well said.
Yeah, I think that's a good illustration.
You and me, our bones of contention and disagreements with Sam Harris are well documented.
Well documented.
Well documented.
But he's in a different category from the sorts of people we were alluding to just previously.
Likewise, with Destiny, I don't condone Destiny's behavior.
I don't endorse Destiny.
But I don't put him in the same opportunistic, lickspital, Category.
So, you know, I respect that.
I know that you've probably got another clip there of Sam saying something that's going to make me rub my forehead.
Oh, no.
No?
Well, yeah.
I mean, there is no shortage of clips that you can do that with Sam.
But I feel like in this case, you know, the important distinction is that he is not in that category of sycophantically praising.
Elon Musk and Trump know that they have the levers of power.
And that is a distinction worth highlighting.
But there's another category, Chris, and I think you've mentioned it before.
You've been listening to the fifth column recently, and these are people that aren't necessarily gagging to perform Ligspital services, but they do have a kind of ambivalent both-siderist.
They present themselves as being...
Above the fray.
Yeah, no.
Ironically commenting on these things, but they probably don't equip themselves as well as Sam Harris in relation to these kinds of political events.
Is that fair?
That is fair.
I do have some clips that speak to that in that set.
So just before we go to there, I will play one more clip of Sam, but it won't make you regret saying something nice because I think this is a similar kind of...
What is so frustrating about Trump supporters is that they refuse to acknowledge any of this.
They simply refuse to acknowledge how pathological our situation is and how pathological Trump himself has made it.
Whatever story you have in your head about all the good Trump might do in a second term, he's a disruptor.
He's got all the tech bros in there with him.
He's just crazy enough to scare our enemies.
Or he's just a bullshitter and he won't do half of what he claims he'll do, so don't worry about it.
Whatever story you're telling yourself, here is what is true now.
We are returning a man to the Oval Office who, as a sitting president, would not commit to a peaceful transfer of power and who tried to steal the 2020 election, all the while claiming it was being stolen from him.
And he has lied about this.
Ever since, knowing that these lies stand as a continuous provocation to violence.
And there are court cases pending, seeking to hold him accountable for all of this.
Cases which, now that he'll be in control of the Justice Department, will be dismissed.
We're putting Trump back in power when we know that he can't honestly discharge his oath of office, because he has no respect for the Constitution.
And half of our society is not only willing to run this risk, they're positively jubilant about it.
At a minimum, you should acknowledge that these events have seriously injured our politics.
Again, whatever happens over the next four years.
Yeah, well said again.
Well said again.
Yeah, I think he's at his best at times like this, really.
What he's saying there is quite...
It should be obvious.
It is quite simple.
And it is entirely true.
Yeah, it's a low bar.
It's a low bar, but he's willing to say it clearly and explicitly and forcefully.
And that is the odd situation that America finds itself at this point in time.
Like, I'm not one of those people that thinks that everyone who's voted for Trump is totally irredeemable and totally evil or, you know, are they recapitulating whiteness or is they trying to usher in a fascist?
Dictatorship or whatever.
I think a lot of people are voting for much more prosaic and not necessarily very clever, but not necessarily very dastardly reasons.
But what it does exemplify is that there is, at the very least, a great deal of complacency about the democratic process.
And I don't know.
I think it is worrying.
And look, I think there will be a clown show over the next four years.
It seems unlikely that things will go well for the MAGA administration, that they'll either do the things that they said they're going to do, in which case it's going to be a car crash, or they are not going to do the things that they said they'll do,
but very much like Trump's wall that was only ever partially built.
And, you know, and Trump is just going to enjoy himself in his dotage, have an enjoyable retirement, being the king of the world, and nothing of substance will happen.
Either way, it's a great shame for the United States of America for that to happen for four years.
And, you know, Sam there is just calling it as it is.
I agree.
And like I say, there are a bunch of people doing that currently, who were critical beforehand and are critical now.
The self-styled, independent, non-aligned, heterodox sphere, that willingness is rare.
That is actually less common than you would anticipate.
And so we mentioned the fifth column, and I have listened to a bunch of the fifth column stuff.
I find a libertarian, frustrating, we'll be putting it mildly, but I kind of...
I like them for the reasons that you've highlighted, Matt, about the kind of cynical approach.
Weary journalists that are annoyed with other journalists.
That's something I can get on board with.
In the same way, I like Private Eye in the UK.
I like the boozy, hard-bitten, cynical approach.
It's a vibe that I endorse.
I listen to them semi-regularly for a while as well, Chris, but I haven't listened to them.
Recently, but you have.
Yeah.
So the thing that undermines that, however, is the more that they are kind of unwilling to criticize certain groups because of their interests or ideological alignment.
Hard to tell.
We covered Moynihan doing the very softball interview with Megyn Kelly, and it just so happens that the fifth column guys appear on Megyn Kelly's show.
Regularly.
Chris, this wouldn't be another case of people in the infosphere scratching each other's back.
This wouldn't be going on with...
No, no.
Surely not.
Surely not.
That's not possible.
Yeah.
So in a recent bonus episode or subscriber episode, they were talking about various issues, right?
But they're mostly...
Drinking in the liberal tears, the overreactions in the wake of the Trump victory.
That's mostly what they're currently focused on.
With nods that, you know, they will criticize the new administration, you know, when it becomes relevant.
But they're not focused on that yet.
They're currently just enjoying the, you know, the liberal meltdown.
But Moynihan was talking about the free press and it's...
You know, your campaign has the success of a runaway freight train.
How do you do this?
So one of their listeners called in asking about how successful the free press has been.
And this is Moynihan's response to this point.
No, it just seems like they've kind of grown really, really fast.
Really fast.
And I am privy to those numbers because despite the fact that I don't work there on staff, I have a contract, so I do.
I can do other stuff for other people, but, you know, basically beyond the fifth column, if I'm on camera and doing stuff like that, I do it for them, which is fine.
And it's a limited thing, and we'll revisit it soon.
But, yeah, the numbers are really good.
Astonishingly good.
And what I'm really interested in is that if you look at the comments on the Free Press, it's like, you know, it tends to seem a bit MAGA sometimes.
The commenters are very active there.
Much more than we do.
Much, much, much more.
Much, much more.
And then...
If you look at the people who actually subscribe, and when you have this many subscribers, you do surveys of this stuff.
I mean, it's the number one full stop website on Substack.
Number one.
That's a lot.
That's a lot of people.
And so there is obviously internal conversations about keeping the content fresh and making sure we have diverse points of view and not getting stuck in some kind of echo chamber, which people who criticize the free press...
And I'm not here as an advocate of free press in any way, but I just say this from my own personal experience, is that there are people out there that have decided that Barry and the free press are the enemy.
And like, oh, you know, this is such a free...
Like, if you actually look at the content and you don't pick and choose, there's like an incredible weird variety of stuff.
I mean, Douglas, for instance, writes a column on Sunday about poetry, which is one of the most popular things on the website, which is totally wild.
He'll be like, write a thousand, two thousand words on a Wilfred Owen.
I mean, Douglass is a very interesting guy who has a deep reservoir of knowledge on a huge number of subjects, but it does do exceptionally well.
So Moynihan, you know, works for the Free Press, but, you know, they'll revisit the contract soon, so it's not like he's unable to speak his mind.
But when countering, and yes, the comments may look like they trend Roller Maga under everything that the Free Press...
And yes, the Free Press might have had some softball interviews with almost everyone that is now appearing on the Trump cabinet.
Not entirely.
Matt Gaetz wasn't there, but Vivek Ramaswamy and whatnot.
But there's a lot of diversity.
There's a wide range.
There's things that you wouldn't expect there.
Matt, would a right-leaning outlet with a bias, would it host columns by Douglas Murray on World War I poetry?
I mean...
What else do you need to see the wide array of ideological point of views that the Free Press regularly represents as a Douglas Murray column about British history?
Yeah, I don't know much about the Free Press, really, Chris.
I'm just looking at some of the recent headlines, how I learned to stop worrying, except Donald Trump.
I raised $50 million for the Democrats.
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