Supplementary Material 4: Passive Aggressive Therapists, Shit-posting Monks, and Weaponised Naivety
We ponder whether, due to our naivety, do we actually deserve the gurus and other topics, including: Is Hasan Piker even better than we said?The ethical quandaries of online therapy with Dr. KThe False Halos of Status and SuccessThe Rest is History Luther series and parallels with Secular GurusThe Power of Polemicists: Peterson, Trump, and Martin Luther?Secular vs. Religious GurusShit-posting MissivesOrthodoxic Atheism and Orthopraxic ReligionLex Fridman's Reflections on Intellectual HumilitySome important Messages from the hostsLinksGame Rant Article about Hasan Piker's donation to Strike FundsUncovering the Higher Truth about Jay Shetty by John McDermottCoffeezilla Interview with John McDermottDr. K and Doctor Mike: Debating The Value Of Eastern Medicine (Ayurveda)That stream with Dr. K and his wifeThe Rest is History: Series on Martin LutherArticle by Chris in Aeon about Orthopraxic ReligionLex's extremely humble tweet about his intellectual humilityThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1hr 19mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurus
Hello and welcome to Decoding the Guru's supplementary...
Friggin' hell, you'd think I'd be able to say that?
Supplementary Materials 4. The fourth edition.
It's a quadrology now.
Is that a word?
I don't know.
It could be a word.
It could be.
And...
After three years of podcasting, Matt and I now have pop filters so we can put plosive peas on everything.
And we can breathe.
We can breathe heavily into the microphone.
Should be fine.
That's right.
I did have a pop filter before, a long time ago.
A big one.
But since we got the other mics, apparently they didn't need them.
But they do need them.
So we've updated it.
People love these kind of behind-the-scenes details.
I like these fairy things.
Yeah, Matt has one that looks like an 80s DJ and mine is like a cropped afro.
That's the way I would put it.
So yeah, different characters.
I was selling some ones in hot pink, hot pink fluffy ones, and I really wanted those ones, but yeah.
Yeah, that's unfortunate.
That's unfortunate.
So, you know, Matt, this is the supplementary segment, right?
There's various things that we can look at and talk about.
One small detail to mention is, you know, we covered Hassan last time on the ideology merchandise line and Editor Andy put that up on the YouTubes.
So we got another round of commentary on it.
And I know...
There's no point to mention this every time this happens, but I just want to say once or twice that you then get a round of people saying, you know, we have the usual thing where people simply repeat the guy popping out of the well.
That's the main response.
It's just, you don't understand socialism.
That's right.
He's participating in capitalism in order to undermine it.
Yeah, it's just, it takes time and you have to really participate.
You have to get into capitalism.
You need the sports cars, you need the mansion, you need the fashion label, all of this.
He's playing the long game.
We get it, we get it.
That's right.
To defeat consumerist culture, you must first become consumerist culture.
That's the thing.
It's, you know, Sun Tzu, know your enemy, bye first.
Becoming your enemy.
Yes, yes.
So that's the main one.
It's fine.
It's totally fine.
That's the main one.
I mean, and it is fine.
We're just saying it's inconsistent with being a communist revolutionary.
That's all.
But the second line of defense is, Chris?
So a more rare line, a more high-quality cut of defense for Hassan was that he donates all the proceeds.
To strike funds and to support unionized workers and whatnot.
Not just that he has done that, but that he does it entirely.
All of the funds that he earns go to strike funds.
If that were true, I would say that you and I would definitely have to eat humble pie.
At least it would be consistent, right?
If all of the profits that he was making, he was...
Investing into support of stuff that aligns with his ideology.
That would be a defense, right?
You're just essentially using the tools of your master to take down their house.
So I asked the person that raised this for more details about this.
Because I had looked into it before we commented.
But they were like, you didn't even check.
You didn't even understand where the profits go.
And they said, you could just check his Twitter.
Hassan has talked about this a lot.
So I did check.
Hassan's Twitter.
And all I could find was reference to him donating around $100,000 or $126,000 to strike funds.
Now, that sounds like a lot.
I also find articles mentioning that.
But that is certainly not...
All of Hasan's profit from his merch line.
In fact, that was the amount that he earned in one day when he released a merch line a couple of years ago.
And this was covered in a whole bunch of sites that cover influencer culture.
So I knew that he did make a donation or maybe a couple of donations, but there was nothing in those articles about him now donating.
All proceeds moving forward or that he is not taking any profit from his march line.
Nowhere did he say that.
And it just, it struck me.
And so I could find absolutely no support for that.
And eventually when the person did provide details, they just said, there's an article on GameRant and the GameRant article is just talking about that one-off donation.
But the thing which that made me think about, which is kind of broader principle, it's like...
The gurus are often, you know, they themselves are a little bit shameless.
They can make claims or they can, you know, exaggerate things or whatever.
But their fans are sometimes way more extreme than they are.
Like Hassan has not said, to my knowledge, I can't find anywhere where he said, I donate all income from this to, you know, strike funds.
His fans, some of his fans, have that kind of impression.
And I've seen the same sentiment on other sites occasionally mentioned.
And it's just, it's impressive because it's kind of like people are going much farther than the gurus.
Even they will go in whatever they're claiming.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think it speaks to a broader point, as you say, of the psychological distortions.
That we do, the sort of contortions we put ourselves through in order to make things consistent and neat for us.
So if you're a fan of Hassan's, you want to believe that he is what he says he is, so you wave away these kinds of inconsistencies, even to the point where you believe a kind of a fiction, something which isn't documented anywhere, but they choose to believe it.
I mean, I think there's an exact parallel with what seems to me like this incredibly naive trust amongst...
The fans of Jordan Peterson or Brett Weinstein or whatever, Andrew Tate, you name it, which is that they will say that these people are just wanting to help us.
Jordan Peterson just cares deeply about young people.
He's not in it for himself.
He doesn't care about the fame or the money or any of those things.
He's on a mission to make the world better.
And his fans truly believe that, and it's true of pretty much all of our gurus.
And it seems to an outsider to be an incredibly naive interpretation of some of his motivations.
And so it should be no surprise that you see it with Hasan Piker's fans as well.
Because it came up as well when we were covering Andrew Huberman a couple of months back.
Because remember when we covered him, we made the point that there's a lot of ambiguity about...
Donations, right?
Because his podcast was called the Huberman Lab and his lab at Stanford was called the Huberman Lab.
But he was like, but these are separate and you can donate to the Huberman Lab or you can join membership at the Huberman Lab.
But it's like they're all branded very similarly and some of the proceeds from donations will be used to support research.
Yeah.
It's not quite clear.
And there's no reporting.
Like, there's no sort of regular, hey, we...
No, then, well...
No, you can go to his website and see where he's made, like, he does document we've donated some amount of money to support this researcher, but it's not accounting.
There's not like, we receive donations of X amount and we donated this amount or Huberman sponsors equate to this and we donate 70%.
No, no, no.
Just amounts that look kind of big.
Donated, but there's no relative comparison.
But when we raised that point, people were like, that's not what he's about, right?
He's not about profiteering or that kind of thing.
But whoever is making huge amounts of money with his podcast and his advertising and the fact that he can also cast it as being about philanthropy, research philanthropy,
that's extremely...
And so, yes, he will support research, but what proportion of the amount goes towards that?
To all the sweet summer children who don't understand how the world works, let me explain.
There are companies, like for instance Shell, that will spend quite a bit of money on very nice advertisements that feature Children smelling flowers and grassy fields.
And in those advertisements, they'll probably talk about some genuine donations that they've made to sustainable energy or clean water or things like that.
And they're real donations.
It's real money.
And if they print the numbers, they may look like large dumpers.
But this is an exercise.
This is a tiny proportion.
The gambling industry in Australia, a big part of its legitimacy is that they take, Chris, some of these profits.
And they give them back to the community.
They support local sports teams.
They have prizes and funds and things set up for young people.
They don't talk very much about the infinitesimal percentage that those charitable donations make up of their actual income.
I don't think anyone would be so naive to think that the gambling industry or that Shell, the oil company, are on a mission to make the world a better place and that's their primary motivating factor.
And yet, when it comes to these influences, whether it's Huberman or Jordan Peterson or Hassan Parker, somehow because of the parasocial relationship and because they've developed a personal ideology that their fans have committed to and invested in,
They will bend over backwards to suspend disbelief and turn themselves into the most naive chumps that has ever walked the planet.
Grow up.
Even as the people buy mansions and drive around its sports cars.
It doesn't matter.
Yeah, it's shocking.
Or in the case of Hassan as well, there was a leak just talking about, you know, their mind that he earned from Twitch streaming.
And it was a lot.
And that is not including all the other stuff that he's getting, right?
So there were various comments like people saying, you know, he's just trying to be sustainable.
I think he's sustainable already.
I think he'll get by.
I think he's going to make it, guys.
Don't worry.
He's okay.
So, yeah, it's quite impressive.
So that was something, Matt.
Just wanted to mention in passing that it's kind of remarkable.
The level of faith that people have.
Not cynical souls, these people.
At least not about very select individuals, at least.
That's the way to put it.
Yes.
Very cynical when it comes to those other guys, but not our favorite guys.
But those guys are bad guys, though.
So that stands to reason.
Well, Matt, another thing that I wanted to raise to your attention.
Coffeezilla was talking to a journalist, John McDermott.
About Jay Shetty.
Have you ever heard of Jay Shetty?
I have heard of him, yeah.
He's a kind of celebrity guru type, spiritual, psychological advice figure.
And there was a big expose in The Guardian published called Uncovering the Higher Truth of Jay Shetty by John McDermott.
And it essentially reveals that he's a bit of a charlatan.
He's exaggerated his credentials.
A lot of his authority rests on being a monk, but he was kind of unclear about a monk of what tradition.
He would just reference the Vedic tradition, but he was a Hare Krishna.
And he also presents it as having these transformative experiences where he encountered a monk.
And before that, he was a high-flying kind of management consultant.
He was a secular guy.
He came across this monk who transformed his life.
But that fails to mention that he's been involved in the Hare Krishna movement since like a child.
And there's videos of him online in material.
So that Road to Damascus moment was maybe perhaps not the thing which, you know, introduced him to the movement.
He was like a leader in various youth camps and stuff.
And he's exaggerated his credentials as many.
So there's an interesting discussion that Coffeezilla had with the journalist who did the investigative research on it, and that was very good.
But it did make me think about a figure who I've seen coming up in various content recently because I've been looking at streamers.
Have you heard of Dr. K?
No, I've heard you mention him a couple of times, but I know very little.
Yeah, I think his name is Alok Kanogia, and his online handle was HealthyGamerGG.
And he rose up by doing Twitch streaming content, but with a therapeutic bent to it.
So, you know, initially I think talking about...
Game addiction and social anxiety or these kind of things and doing streaming, talking about mental health.
But more so, I think, rose to prominence by doing streams with influencers where it's not therapy, Matt.
He's very clear.
It's not official therapy, but he's just going to talk through issues and ask questions that you might find therapeutic.
Might be beneficial, but it is not a medical therapeutic encounter.
And he is a licensed therapist, so that would be a problem if he was doing that kind of thing in public, right, without all of the constraints.
And I saw various things where he'd interviewed an influencer and actually seemed, you know, mostly decent CBT-style advice about how to reframe things or this kind of stuff, and maybe a bit.
Psychoanalytical or whatever for my taste, but you know, basically reasonable.
And then more recently, I came across an interview where he was talking to another celebrity online doctor called Dr. Mike, who apparently is another big figure online.
And it was called The Value of Eastern Medicine Ayurveda.
And it's like a two-hour conversation.
And now, Matt, we'll cover this conversation, so I'm not going to spoil it, all the stuff that goes on there.
But suffice to say, it's very good content for us.
And it will remind you of many things from the 90s and 2000s, if you had any interest in complementary and alternative medicine.
But interesting parallels with Jay Shetty are that Dr. K also frequently references that he was a monk.
I don't think he indicates what kind of monk, just a Vedic Eastern monk of some description, which is what Jay Shetty used to say.
So, kind of curious there.
He also got controversy because he was giving, I guess not therapy, was having a chat with somebody, a streamer who was diagnosed with depression, and they had a conversation where the streamer got...
Emotional, a bit distressed and so on.
And the streamer went on to kill himself later, right?
So this is a problem.
Quite an ethical quandary.
Now, not to say that Dr. K is responsible for that, right?
But if you are a trained therapist talking with someone that's diagnosed with depression and is dealing with suicidal ideation and mentioned that his family, his brother, killed himself as well, there's ethical issues.
There, right?
Quite large ones, I think.
Yeah, sure.
Anyway, we'll get into all that when we cover them.
But I have two clips for you, Matt.
And this is from a stream where Dr. K is on with his wife.
And him and his wife are answering questions from the stream.
Okay?
And somebody pointed this out to me on Twitter whenever I was making some commentary about the Dr. K content.
They were like, oh, you should see...
This interaction, they found it quite telling.
I wonder if you will.
So, let me play.
I have two clips for you.
And this is Dr. K with his wife, who seems a nice person from the bit on the stream that I saw.
So, here we go.
So, like, Kruthi and I had a similar period where she was, like, earning and a functional human being, and I was, like, struggling to get into medical school.
And I think that...
Okay.
I knew you were going to be there.
Um, yeah, so, but I think that, so that's what you know, right?
And that's exactly what his girlfriend is telling him, right?
So you're saying basically this sentence.
I feel like I'm dragging the relationship down despite her telling me that I'm doing fine as long as I'm working on myself.
Listen to her.
Yeah, so I think the perspective, this person is asking for my perspective because I've been closer to that situation than you have.
Tell him to listen to her.
No, I mean, that's not sufficient.
Go ahead.
So...
I'm a little bit concerned with how disrespectful you are to me on stream.
Okay.
What do you think about that?
I'm serious.
Um...
Okay.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Tell me more.
So, like, when you say go ahead, it implies that you're giving me permission to speak.
Oh, that's because we were both talking, and then I was saying, you can talk.
You can talk.
Right, and I will stop talking.
So when you say, like, you can talk, that implies permission.
What should I say?
Um...
I think maybe you should...
Yeah, I think it should be a little bit more...
Like, if I'm speaking, you should ask me if you want to interrupt to begin with.
Okay.
Right? Yes.
Ugh. Yeah.
How's that, man?
Healthy?
I don't like that, Chris.
I don't like that.
That made my skin crawl.
Did that spark joy?
Did not spark joy.
So the context there was, they were asked a question, right?
And she answered and may have spoke over him a little bit.
I don't think she did, but in any case, she said, go ahead.
Yeah, and he had to set her straight.
And it's not just the, you know, whatever it is, that ugly.
Power game thing.
But it's expressed in that newspeak, that kind of therapy language, like I'm sharing my feelings and now I want you.
It just goes to show, doesn't it, that you can put old wine in these new bottles and it's the same old nasty shit that people have been doing for hundreds of years.
What I think people should get is when you see that kind of language, what do you think about that?
I'm serious.
Do you understand why I'm upset?
Why did you do that?
That's weaponizing therapy.
It is.
Yeah.
It's manipulative, controlling.
It should be obvious to everyone what's really going on there.
I'm coming at this completely cold.
I know nothing about these two people, the context, or anything like that.
Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty firm ground to saying that that is not the conversation that a decent, normal person, well-adjusted person has with their partner.
Certainly, my mum would hit me over the back of the head if she ever heard me speak to my wife like that.
Yeah, and there was also two bits that I thought was kind of interesting about that.
And again, it is, you know, analyzing a specific encounter, but nonetheless, after he says, you know, do you understand what I'm saying?
And then she doesn't know what to say, so she says, tell me more.
So she kind of flips, Judo flips, like, tell me more about why you're feeling that way.
No, this is not the first time they've done this little dance, I'm sure.
No, and she also asks him, like, after she's trying to defend herself by saying, you know, no, I was just saying, you know, you go ahead.
And then she says, what do you want?
What would you like me to say instead?
He can't go up.
Well, if anything, that's what that big huge uncomfortable pause is.
It's worse when you can see the video because he's just, you know, like, thinking that he doesn't have a...
And what he could come up with was you should ask permission before you...
To interrupt?
Which doesn't even make sense.
Yeah, when you say something...
Because you're still interrupted.
Like, excuse me, I'm thinking to interrupt you.
Do I have permission to do that?
That was so freaking weird.
So that was uncomfortable.
So this person's a self-help type, clinical type guru who's helping people with their problems, relationship or otherwise, right?
Oh, yes.
And you can't see about the visual language that goes with that clip, but...
After it, it's extremely uncomfortable.
And, you know, they agree to move on and they make some jokes about arguing in front of the children, right?
The Twitch chat.
But the look in people's eyes suggests it's not exactly over, right?
And then later, this happens.
So this is after they've answered another question, you know, they've moved on to the other things, and this little callback happens.
I think telling each other in the moment Is way better than being like, four hours ago you did this and that.
Don't do that.
Right?
So if someone does something that bothers you, you let them know then and there, even if it's awkward and scares the children a little bit.
And it can feel awkward for both of us, but now we're fine.
We're good.
We feel better.
Is it okay if I go like this when you say, let's just think for a second?
Sure.
Okay.
You can continue to mock me.
I just felt slightly disrespected.
And maybe it's because Twitch chat was calling you, was calling me a beta cuck.
Y 'all, come on.
No, it's okay.
I mean, they can call me a beta cuck.
It's just if I feel disrespected, then I'll tell you.
What does that mean exactly?
Basically like they're saying I'm whipped.
Okay.
Right, so.
Okay.
Am I wet?
What do you think?
I don't think that's a thing.
I don't think...
I mean, that's the thing.
Sometimes you're going to be more dominant and I'm going to back down.
Sometimes I'm going to be more dominant and you back down.
It's never always equal.
Okay.
Let's do one more and then move to Twitter.
Is it over?
The clip is finished.
How was that for healthy processing?
You know what it reminded me of?
I recently watched that wonderful movie, Best in Show.
Have you seen that movie, Best in Show?
Yeah, yeah.
You know there's a very neurotic couple in there that's like these yuppies that they're super tense and they drive their dog, goes mental too, and bites somebody or whatever, so they're disqualified.
That's who these people remind me of, like just that absolutely messed up kind of thing.
But there's all of this language, very middle class, very, I don't know, clinical speak.
But, you know, this is...
You find some interesting things on the internet for us, don't you, Chris?
Yeah, well, the thing which I noted from that, and part of it relies again on the visual, is that when she says, can I go like this?
When you ask me to think about it, she like points at her head, you know, like, so she's making a joke and he looks annoyed and then said, you can continue to mock me.
I just feel slightly disrespected, right?
So he doesn't take the lighthearted escape and presents that as her continuing to disrespect him.
And then he brings up...
The Twitch chat is calling him a better cock, right?
And he's kind of saying, you know, yeah, I mean, I don't really care.
They're just calling me a better cock.
But then he moves on to, am I a better cock?
What do you think about it?
Just like, this is your healthy role model.
You should just completely ignore.
If anybody in your life ever calls you a better...
Just take 10 steps away from that person.
I was mainly struck by just the levels of passive aggression throughout.
He's litigating.
He's got some issue about not being respected enough and that he's not dominant enough and she needs to be in her place and asking permission to talk and stuff like that.
And he's worried about people on the internet.
Calling him a beta cuck.
It's just how absurd.
And he's the therapist.
He's the therapeutic.
And the other thing about him that I think is worth mentioning is that he's found a little bit around the issue with doing therapy online and not violating your code of ethics because that would in so many different ways,
especially when you Bear in mind that this is public therapy, like talking to people with a big streaming audience.
There's a whole raft of issues there.
Issues there, yeah.
He, by framing it as, one, not therapy, but two, spiritual guidance, because he's also...
This, you know, interested in Ayurveda and Vedic practices, and he can present it as its kind of Eastern spiritual guidance.
And then, Matt, the licensing bodies and whatnot, I feel like they're a bit scared to try and address somebody who's claiming that they're doing a non-Western complementary or indigenous practice,
right?
You cannot...
Apply the same restrictions to someone's spirituality as you would to their therapy, right?
Well, religions of all kinds, Chris, have always had a get-out-of-jail-free card when it comes to professional ethics and things like that, especially in the United States.
So, yeah, that is a good trip.
But I'm still flabbergasted how these two were reflecting on their own interactions just there and holding it up as an example.
To everyone about this is how you should.
You know, we were talking about people being somewhat gullible towards their gurus.
If you look at the comments under this, they're all saying how great, you know, they're modeling how to do conflict resolution in real time and, you know.
Sometimes I feel like we're just doomed.
We're just doomed.
What the hell?
What's wrong with you people?
And look, it's not the thing that everybody would have arguments with, you know, a loved one or a partner.
There's always going to be, like, strained times and nobody's relationship is perfect, right?
But I'll tell you this, I've never spoken to a partner in that way by saying, you will, you disrespected me there and you need to think about...
Asking my permission before you interrupt me.
Like that's just, that's not normal.
It's not normal.
I'm sorry.
There's issues there.
So yeah, I'm not a therapist.
I'm just a practitioner of cavernology.
It's an ancient spiritual practice.
So nobody tried to censor me by any professional bodies.
I'm just saying in cavernology, that interaction is a little bit telling.
Well, one of the things I really hate about language, like fashionable language, and there's so many different kinds.
There's the sense-maker-y type language, the academic-y language, there's the very corporate, formal language, and there's this sort of clinical language.
There are so many ways in which fashion's in language.
Can be weaponized.
And because they're new, because they're kind of special ways of talking that people have bought into, you can so easily smuggle in.
Like the worst kind of just old-fashioned bullying, controlling, insulting stuff.
But as long as you do it using the right language, somehow it's a magical wand where you can get away with it.
And I just really hate how effective...
That is, in all circumstances, you know, you see it in a corporate world, you'll see it in an academic world, you can see it in this world.
You might see it in social justice circles from time to time.
Maybe.
You might.
Some people might do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, but it's just a general observation, isn't it?
That just be wary of these special coded language things.
They can so easily smuggle in.
Just use your common sense and think about what is the person.
Doing here in plain language and don't fall for it.
Don't let anyone be passive-aggressive to you and controlling and manipulative like that guy is to his partner.
That's my advice for young folks out there.
That certainly sounds like something you would normally say, Matt.
So it's hard to pretend to do it.
For a second you look confused.
You look confused.
So it didn't exactly go as intended, that pun.
But, you know, I can be passive-aggressive, but not on command.
Not on command.
That's the problem.
So we'll look at Dr. K. He's a streamer, and there's a very interesting piece of contact with him talking to this Dr. Mike guy.
And it tweaks my buttons because it's talking about alternative medicine and different things.
And he's doing something more sophisticated than a Deepak Chopra person.
But not all together are different.
Anyway, we'll see.
We'll have a look.
That's for another time.
For another time.
I read that article in The Guardian.
We might even link to it.
But yeah, it's no surprise that Gwyneth Paltrow is a fan of this Shetty fellow.
Jay Shetty.
Yeah, he was in the White House.
You know, he was doing stuff with Biden and stuff.
And it's just an example that there are lots of people that can have high profiles, can be very successful and built on the foundation of lies, right?
Like, you see this all the time in, like, finance and whatnot.
But it's part of the reason why there are people who are millionaires or billionaires.
I mean, just recently, Sam Bankman-Fried, who was...
Celebrate it all over the place as a philanthropic billionaire who wants to give it all away, isn't interested in luxuries and whatever.
And as various investigations have revealed, it was all a deck of cards, right?
And he was up to stuff that he knew was wrong, but also he was doing various things to try and manipulate his published image and so on.
And he's been sentenced to 25 years for fraud.
Just five years ago, he would have been a figure that if you were pointing out he's wearing no clothes or that all his fortune might be based on a mirage, people would have been looking at you askew.
So there are other figures who are very wealthy and may at some point face similar consequences.
It's unclear, but just to say, don't assume that status and success and high profile equals.
That people are fundamentally honest.
And have good personal qualities.
No.
No, no, no.
Most people should know that, Matt.
They should know that.
But it seems to be something that people have to repeatedly find out.
So, yeah.
Now, speaking of that, speaking about patterns that repeat, speaking about morphic resonances that appear throughout history in different forms, the kind of egregores, if you will, Matt.
I was listening to The Rest is History, a very popular history podcast that you also like, and they were talking about Martin Luther.
I think they have a four or five part series on Martin Luther.
And they made the monk Martin Luther, not Martin Luther King, the person who kicked off the Reformation and Luther.
He spawned a whole race of enemies of your people, the Protestants.
Right, yeah.
The evil, heretic Martin Luther who tore asunder the one true church in Catholicism.
So they make some observations which I thought were interesting and speak to themes that we cover here.
So listen to them talking a little bit.
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