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Oct. 17, 2025 - Dinesh D'Souza
57:22
TRUMP AND HEAVEN Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep1192
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Is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians?
The revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.
The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation.
What if there was gonna be a resurrection of another people, an enemy people of Israel?
The Dragons prophecy.
Watch it now, or buy the DVD at the Dragons Prophecy Film.com.
Coming up, Debbie and I here for our Friday Roundup, we're gonna talk about Trump's view on whether he's gonna make it to heaven, hostage reunions that strike home with us, uh the dragon's prophecy, the latest on that, whether the Jews killed Jesus and why Maria Corina Machado deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.
By the way, the Dragon's Prophecy, the number one DVD right now on Amazon, so check it out.
Go to the movie website, it's the Dragons Prophecy Film dot com.
You can stream, you can order DVDs, the various tabs are on there, so you can choose how you want to get it.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
America needs this voice.
The times are crazy, and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh de Souza podcast.
Debbie knows as well as anyone else that when we have a new film and there is a torrent of publicity, and we're in the throes of promoting it, but we're also hatching new pro new projects projecting into next year.
Things are a little hectic in the D Souza household.
Which is to say that we've we've commented on it on this lately, that our kind of intensity begins from the time that we wake up in the morning, but it seems to go to the to the very last minute.
and I've been joking the last couple of, well, the last few nights, that I actually cannot get to sleep.
Yeah, yeah.
And and the reason is we get into like an intense conversation.
Um I think the most recent one was uh you were you were telling me about the mullahs, and I think we were discussing the question of why Trump did the strike on Iran but stopped at that point.
He even prevented Israel from going further.
Right, right.
And and all I remember was I was starting to fade and fall asleep and I hear you whispering into my ear, what's your position on the mullash of the mullahs gonna wait the morning?
I'm not the president of the United States.
I don't have to take imminent action.
I'm merely articulating my own stance, right?
Well, we were talking about all of all of the countries where where the um basically we're where the dictators have been taken down.
And unfortunately, instead of becoming a better society, the infiltration of the terrorists, the Islamic terrorists, is has gotten worse, right?
Assad goes down and in a way Syria becomes more dangerous.
Yep.
Uh of course when Mubarak went down, Obama pushed the Muslim Brotherhood, so that was um He tried.
He tried and uh until eventually the military stepped in and uh and thwarted the Obama scheme to hand over Egypt to the Muslim Brotherhood.
Yep.
Uh of course Saddam Hussein, you could make the case that he was a uh he was a guy, a secular leader standing against the radical Muslims, and ironically his um ouster strengthened radical Islam.
In fact, sh strengthened the Iran faction, the Shia faction, pro-Iran faction uh in Iraq.
So yes, this is the kind of thing that you and I are often discussing at 10 p.m.
Yeah.
When most normal people are just like, you know, they're they're watching an entertainment or they're winding it down.
Well, if we're not watching a a criminal who done it, we sometimes do it.
Sometimes we do that, but if we don't do that and we go straight to bed, we just well, lately I think you know, you've been doing media nonstop, so I don't get to chat with you during the day.
So that's like the only time that we actually get to talk, get to chat.
And so um, but you're really funny because when we go to sleep, or when we go to bed, you fall asleep.
Right away.
Right away.
It doesn't take you very long, and I'm still kind of trying to get, you know, I'm trying to wind down.
And and the funny thing is I'll talk to you and then I don't hear anything back, and I'm like, oh, you're asleep.
And then I and then I close my eyes and all of a sudden you say something, and I'm like, oh wait, you're awake.
And so that was that I think that was the the Mullah thing.
Well, of late, um uh we we also had another adventure uh this week, yeah, which really began on Sunday when I was hacked on my ex account.
Yes.
Now in social media, we you know, we have a couple of guys who help us.
We have a guy who helps us, a good friend of ours, young fellow who helps us on Instagram.
Uh we have some help on on Facebook, but on X, it's pretty much all me.
I'm so that's my primary kind of um launching pad uh to post ideas and memes and things like that.
So I get an email that says, in effect, you have violated copyright laws, which by the way, this is familiar to us.
We've gotten strikes on YouTube because we supposedly have violated copyright, but it turns out it's not.
We haven't.
It's a singer we we got a license to use his song for our movie.
So uh but there is a copyright algorithm that pulls this stuff up, and so I thought that's what it was, and I thought, oh, come on, you know, we are using our own footage, but they're like, you have to appeal this if you don't want your account suspended.
And I'm like, I have a new movie out.
The last thing I want is have my ex account suspended.
I click on it, I put in my password to appeal, and I realize it's hackers.
They've taken over my ex account.
I have they locked me out.
They locked you out.
And not only that, they're posting their own memes on my ex account, basically trying to promote cryptocurrency.
Which is not a bad thing.
It would not necessarily a bad thing.
Well, they're promoting like some sort of Trump meme.
And um, so in any case.
It was Trump.
Trump hacked my account.
That's right, he as if he needs my five million followers.
He literally doesn't.
But anyway, so the point is we were able to get the account locked.
Uh they were able to like delete these offending imposter memes, but it was quite a battle.
Yeah, and this is because you know people in X. You know people and still you can imagine a just a uh a person that has you know just a few followers, if they get locked out, they pretty much will be locked out.
Well, I mean, look at my account.
I've been locked out essentially.
You've you have you are being shadowback or suppressed for five years.
Yeah, for five years.
I've even tweeted out to Elon Musk to look into this because you're not the only person.
Others have to are in the same position.
I don't know if this is a leftover algorithm from the old regime that they just haven't like they haven't caught it and they haven't stopped it.
Yep.
And I'm not, you know, I'm But the funny thing with these companies, I think you've got these high-tech companies, and they're so in many ways so sophisticated.
But one thing that they don't do is they don't have a person you can call on the phone.
You send them an email, like we did this, right?
We send them an email on on Sunday, they reply on Monday, asking for information, you provide that information, you don't hear for 24 hours.
Then you get an email On Tuesday, basically sending you the same form to fill out again.
You're like, I just filled this out, and then when you reply, you don't hear till Wednesday.
So it wasn't until basically Wednesday evening when I got my account back.
And and I gotta say, this may be actually showing the degree to which we have become social media addicts.
Because think about it.
I was in fact, let's say off of X for 72 hours.
Normally, not exactly a giant, you know, period of time.
For you.
But for me.
An eternity.
It felt la it felt like a long time.
It felt like why like why shouldn't this problem be fixable like in 30 minutes?
I was actually not that upset.
Was a little part of you kind of chuckling because you're like, Dinesh is off social media.
This is actually the world before we got all these social media platforms, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I remember years ago when I told my mom, uh, who's now passed away, but at the time she was, and and she's like, Dinesh, like what is Twitter?
And I go, Well, it's this platform where people basically offer their thoughts about things and also they describe what they're doing.
She goes, What they're doing.
I go, I yeah, mom.
Some people will even say things like, I just had you know eggs and bacon for breakfast.
And my mom paused, and I just remember what she goes, how horrible.
How horrible.
She found the very idea that this existed to be appalling.
Well, and to be honest, um, you know, I've been I've been on X Twitter since 2009.
Yeah.
I think you were you also about that time.
In fact, yeah.
I mean, yeah.
And I have seen it just progress into something not so good.
I mean, there are there are good things about it, but I do think that people just go off the rails.
I mean, recently, um, because of because of the movie and because of our support for Israel, our support for the Jews, this this woman, um, yeah, this is fascinating.
She's a kind of a Candace Owens acolyte.
Yeah, so she got super weird, and and she basically accused you of being a what is she call you?
A Hindu.
A Hindu.
Meaning Hindu plus Jew equals Hindu.
Yes.
And says that you are actually Jewish.
Right.
Because in India, it was well, what she says of the Portuguese throughout the Jews under the time of Ferdinand and Aragon, uh, Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella, and she says some of those Jews fled to India to Goa, uh, which is in fact where my family's from.
But what she doesn't know, she assumed that because my last name's De Souza, I must be Portuguese.
And so this is how their reasoning goes.
Dinesh is Portuguese, the Portuguese Jews came to India, therefore Dinesh must be a Portuguese Jew.
Uh, and this is how, with these leaps of logic.
Now, of course, the flaw here is that my family converted, but I don't have any Portuguese ancestry, so there goes your theory.
But she had a theory about you.
Oh, she had a theory about me.
And not only that, but first of all, she said she went to my ancestry.com, right?
Right.
And she said that it was private, so she couldn't actually extrapolate what what I am, which is hilarious because if she were to do that, she would find out that I represent the entire world.
Right, exactly.
You know, you are unusual individuals.
I am an unusual.
You've got you've got Native American, which of course includes Asian, because that's the Asiatic.
Yes, a lot of Native American, a lot a lot of black from Africa 11%.
Yeah, about that, yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, and then I'm scattered throughout the world.
But but the interesting thing is she's like, well, yeah, with with your mother, your mother looks like a Jew.
And first of all, how insensitive of this piece of, you know, what's well, your mother's Mexican American.
She's but when she's been and she has been dead for a year and a half.
So for her to post a photo of my mother, how insensitive of an individual that claims to be Christian, which obviously is not, but claims to be, to do that with my my deceased mother.
Like, what is what is what's the same thing?
So what you're saying is what you're getting at here, you're saying that these platforms have become the degraded uh stomping ground of really weird people who won't let up and are not checked by any sense of balance or journalistic decency or objectivity.
I mean, our point is not that they're outing us for stuff that they've really found out that we've been trying to suppress, not at all.
The opposite.
Uh their basic thing is we must be taking the positions we are.
Not because we're sincere, not because we have opinions, but because we're all we're basically secret Jews.
Right.
Yeah, that's I mean, I la you don't laugh as hardly as I do over this kind of stuff.
No, because I think it's insensitive and I think it's it's um you're disturbed by it more than I am.
Yeah.
I mean, I I I just I don't like it.
I don't like it at all.
And I did want to lash out, but then I was like, yeah, I don't really want to get in a fight with someone that has two followers anyway.
But yeah, yeah, well, not to mention these people can be bottomlessly mean spirited, some of them.
And uh and it is a little unnerving that they are in general on the right.
Yeah.
You know, um, let's talk about the film.
Uh here we go.
This is the DVD.
I've been brandishing it around.
We're very proud of the fact that it's the number one DVD in the country.
Now we're not talking about the number one DVD of documentaries.
We're talking about the number one DVD, period, on Amazon.
And that shows that people are buying the film.
They like the film, and this is a way the DVD is a way to own it, right?
And so, you know, some people say I don't have a DVD player, well, fine.
But but a surprising number of people do.
They're really interesting.
They like they like one.
Exactly.
They're like they're they're not expensive, and you can and there are a lot of great DVDs out there that you could that you could watch.
Well, you can create a little library of them.
Well, we have a couple of friends, including some important people coming to our house to watch the film, and we could try to stream it in our media room, but we would rather do it by DVD because the DVD, the Blu-ray, they're high quality.
It's like watching a movie, and it's just great to have it physically right there.
This is just a regular DVD, it's not a Blu-ray.
It's a regular DVD.
Yeah.
All right.
Uh now the film is streaming on three platforms.
One is Salem Now, that's Salem Media.
The other is Rumble, and the third is the platform uh allied with the Epoch Times.
It's called GJW.
That's um that's their streaming platform.
By the way, the tabs of all the platforms are on the website, the dragonsprophecyfilm.com.
So you can choose where you want to watch it, click and uh and watch.
Now we have been quite stunned by the not just the I was telling you that in reading all these reviews, and they're now, you know, a dozen or so of these, they're just over the top favorable.
Not only that, but I've scoured them to find criticism, and I can't.
There's not a single review to my knowledge that says, oh, you know what, the film did these three things well, but could have done this thing better.
No, nothing.
Only positive.
And I think a lot of people are taken aback by the spiritual depth of the film.
I think that is actually what's disarming them.
And um, and um then, of course, we have, you know, people like Laura Trump have seen the film, really like it, uh, Roseanne Barr, Mark Levin, so Glenn Beck.
So this is a film that has just brought gushing praise, and we are gratified by it actually, not for ourselves.
We wanted to make a really powerful film that will get this message out to the world.
And um the other thing I want to mention, and is that we're grateful to Prague or you because what Prague or You did was this week, they took over for a day the X platform.
They created what they call the mini doc, which sounds a bit funny, but it's basically our act one of the film, the opening scene of the film.
It's about 20 minutes.
So it's a it's a chunk of the film, but it's a chunk which leads to all the questions that the film explores.
So it keeps you wanting more.
And they they uh they called it something like the Book of Revelation and the Great Revival.
And they uh promoted it heavily on all platforms.
It's apparently gotten something like 35 million impressions.
Uh more than a million people have watched this mini doc.
And I'm hoping that a bunch of people watch it and go, hey, this is so fascinating.
I need to watch the full film.
Uh but whether you watch the full film or not, the the clips, the nuggets, the uh are getting out there very widely.
And uh not only here but also in Israel.
I'm getting all these requests to go on these podcasts in Israel, and you know, this is all very unfamiliar territory for me.
We've visited Israel, but it's not as if we are ensconced in the environment over there.
So it's interesting to me.
I did a podcast with a rabbi.
I did a podcast with another guy who's very much into biblical archaeology.
In fact, he was saying, I didn't see in the film the uh the cave at uh Macfella.
This is going back to the time of Abraham.
Abraham goes to the Hittite and buys a cave for his wife Sarah to be buried.
Apparently, those caves are the location of those caves is known.
And so he was, and I'm like, wow, I mean, I know about it, but no, that's not in the film.
Uh he's like, you gotta come, you gotta come check this place out.
Well, I mean, you are going to be doing a 12-part, kind of a little like little videos, 12-part series of of biblical archaeology, so you can definitely put that on the list.
Yeah, I've got I'm gonna have to narrow down.
I told Prager, you I want to pick the 12 most important discoveries of all time in biblical archaeology, things that validate the Bible in in big and small ways.
Because I'm I'm just as impressed by small details in the Bible uh that suddenly prove to be true.
People who make cameo appearances in the old testament, uh and uh suddenly you find their name on a clay seal and you're like, wow.
So, yes, I'll be as soon as the uh the sort of whirlwind of this film subsides, you know.
In fact, sometimes when I go on these podcasts and shows, they're like, Okay, Dinesh, like what's your next project?
I'm like, I cannot even think.
Oh yeah.
Uh, you know, it's hard for me to think to the end of the day, let alone to the next project, because well, you know better than anyone else the kind of media I do, which begins early in the morning and essentially is back to back.
Yeah, I don't see you for a couple weeks, really.
Exactly.
Or a month, well, we we kind of see each other, but even our meals are have to be like planned around the media and and we certainly can't go out.
And walking in the morning.
I've lost a buddy.
You've lost your walking companion because he's on some Israeli podcast.
Or actually, I'm doing Christian media, I'm doing some Jewish media, and of course I'm doing the normal conservative and secular media.
Interestingly, the left is staying out of this.
Yeah, which is kind of strange because you would think that they would want to exploit divisions on the right.
Like, hey, you know what?
There's a well, to be fair, I think there's already a lot of division on the right over this topic.
No, but I'm saying you'd think the left would try to make hay of it.
I think they're letting no, I think they're letting us, you know, do it ourselves.
You guys go and they're enjoying it.
They're sitting back in their spectatorial seats.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is interesting.
I mean, there's been, you know, I guess I was on Piers Morgan, but I noticed that like CNN, uh, even News Nation, which is where Chris Cuomo is, they are biding their time uh and kind of staying, kind of staying out of it.
But look, we feel very uh blessed that this film has hit a chord.
Um it's hard to know that that's gonna happen when you make a film, right?
You you a film is almost like you make it.
It could even be really timely when you make it.
That does not mean it'll be timely when it's released.
Yeah, honey, but there are so many things that happened during the making of this movie that I knew it was special from the beginning.
I I knew that God had a plan for it, and I knew that it was gonna be the perfect uh, you know, combination of of all the things that you mentioned, you know, the the conflict, the prophetic conflict the the prophetic meaning of the conflict, the the bringing the Bible to you know to live, because look, you cannot look at all of these bibli uh biblical archaeology sites and go, nah, the Bible's not real.
No.
They you know, it's a story, it's a made-up story, it's a fairy tale.
You cannot do that by looking at the facts.
You you deny the facts, you can deny the facts, but it's like denying that the sun comes up in the morning.
Well, and this is really important because this is not true Of the scriptures of other religions, right?
You cannot say, uh, here's the Quran and let us know archaeologically validate the Quran.
Can't do it.
Can't do it.
No.
Let's take the Hindu scriptures.
Let's take the the, you know, or even the kind of classic texts of Hinduism.
Uh there is some philosophical insight in them.
I don't want to deny that, but I'm just saying, in terms of factual authentication, in terms of the historicity of, let's just say the Ramayana or the Mahabharata, these great Indian epics.
No, you're not going to be able to establish that at all.
And so the Bible stands in a class of its own in this regard.
And you were joking, in fact, we were putting together the credits for the film.
And it says, you know, uh written and directed by Dinesh Jesuza and Debbie D'Souza and Bruce Schooley, and you're like, wrong, wrong, wrong, right?
You're like, oh yeah.
You're like written and directed by God himself.
Yeah.
Right.
Using these three uh guys to carry out his mandate.
Right.
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Speaking of uh the supernatural speaking of God, let's talk about Trump.
Well, what about LeShai and her and her work?
Well, we'll come to it.
Let's let's do Trump first, because we're talking about God in heaven, and we'll come back to Lee Shai next.
Okay, God in heaven.
So Trump makes this uh really comical statement that he's he's not sure he's gonna make it to heaven.
He's by the way, talking on Air Force One.
He goes, I'm really pretty high up right now.
He goes, but uh, you know, flying uh way above the uh above ground level, and he goes, uh I don't really know if I qualify for heaven.
He goes, but you know, I have helped a lot of people.
What do what do you make of this Trumpian uh uh this sort of theological uh statements by Trump?
Well, I think that he needs to know that good works don't get you to heaven.
Well, you know, I suppose that's right, but it seems like think of it.
If you and I were sitting next to Trump and you said this to him, I don't even think he would know how to react to that.
I'm not sure he would, and I'm not sure I would say that.
Right.
Exactly.
I'd be like, I'd be like, that's right, Trump.
You know, you're close to that.
Yeah.
No, I I don't know.
I do think that he needs to surround himself with really solid Bible believing Christians.
I'm not, I don't know that he does.
You know, I and Good point.
And uh and I think that that, you know, because salvation is really quite simple.
It really is.
There are people that that don't understand what salvation is and what it takes to be saved.
It's really simple.
It's a relationship with Christ, and you have to ask for it, and it and it happens.
You're saying it's a free gift, and all you have to do is receive it.
Yes.
Right.
And that doesn't take not does it not take a lot of effort.
It actually, in a sense, the risk receiving it by itself takes no effort at all.
Now, what comes with it is the is the inward transformation that produces a a different kind of life.
Yes.
And that is in fact the Christian life.
Yes.
Um we noted that when we went to Charlie Kirk's funeral, that there were profuse invocations, by the way, not just generically of God, but of Jesus Christ.
Trump himself did very little of that.
Um in fact, Trump somewhat sardonically disputed Erica Kirk's I forgive the murder of my husband by basically saying, Well, that's that's not the way I think.
Yeah.
I mean, I I actually loved it too.
I can't forgive my enemies.
I want the worst without.
You know, and and Trump is Trump.
And you know, when when you always say that God made when God made Trump, he threw away the mold.
It's true.
It is true.
In general, it's true, but you know what?
In this case, Trump is in the he's in the old testament tradition.
Yeah.
An eye for an eye.
Yeah, he's a good thing.
Straight out of the old testament.
And actually a lot of people are like that.
Even people that are Christian, that are that you know, like for example, I mean, I've I I came to to Christ a long, long time ago.
Uh I was a worship leader.
I I feel like I know the Bible really well, but I struggle with forgiveness.
That's been something that I have struggled with all my life.
I I hold grudges, and I shouldn't.
I really shouldn't, obviously.
Yeah, you know.
Well, when we think, yeah, when we think back, we can always think of people, and they they it could be a number of people, it could be one person, it could be a few, who you genuinely believed have really wronged you.
Right.
And and have wronged you not just in the sense that they uh it they said something that was mean spirited, but they set you back in such a way that it took you a long time to recover, and in some ways there are people who don't recover at all.
And so forgiving those things is really hard.
Really, really hard.
Um, but um, but I but I know I you know we're all flawed.
We we are in fact when when you come when you ask to receive from from Jesus to come into your heart, i it's the most flawed people that he that he willingly does it to be.
Well, the flawed people are often the people who come to the best self-recognition of what it is that they need.
I also think that forgiveness is in a human sense unnatural.
And I say this because the impulse of the eye for an eye, the impulse of retribution, that is the most natural form of justice.
Revenge.
Revenge.
Yeah.
Right?
Now, to say I forego the revenge, uh I absolve you, uh, that is something that requires grace, in my opinion.
Um it's not something that comes from us, it actually comes from God.
And I think for the Christian, it is a little easier because the Christian at least should be in constant awareness that God has actually already done that for us.
So he's not asking us to do something that he hasn't already done.
Exactly.
So we have to act in there's a great book by Thomas Akempis called The Imitation of Christ.
We have to act, you know, in the imitation of Christ in this in this regard.
All right.
Uh Lee Shai, our um I won't say our friend, uh, but when we went to do the filming of this film, we got a little window into Lishai Miran's world.
Uh This very tiny uh kibbutz uh on the edge of Gaza.
It's called the Nahalas kibbutz.
And um talk a little bit about our experience there.
Yeah.
Because this is a story that actually has a happy ending, although not a happy ending without a cost.
It does have a happy ending.
Well, you know, as we were driving to this kibbutz, obviously we we really didn't know where we were going.
Right.
This was kind of, you know, the we we saw it in the schedule.
We had we had joked about not going to Gaza.
Right.
Right.
And then all of a sudden we're we're going there.
We're going to the border.
And uh not only are we going to the Nova festival site, but we're also going to a kibbutz that was you know besieged, right?
And and has bullet holes and has all the insignia of blood and and carnage.
And not just bullet holes, but um, you know, those big what are the the Oh, yeah, those um I don't even know what you call them, but they're not just guns.
They're like they're like cannons.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like unreal.
But anyway, as we're driving, I, you know, uh, we talked about all the videos that I kept, and I couldn't help but kind of have a deja m deja vu moment because I'm like, I've seen this before.
I've seen this road.
I've seen this road before.
I've seen this house before.
And and then when we when we met her, I was like, she looks very familiar.
And as you're chatting with her, because you you chatted with her a little bit before you filmed.
That's right.
I briefly all of a sudden, I'm like, of course.
This is the live stream that I have.
Um her neighbors of her house and her neighbor's house, yes, and her in the footage.
Two neighbors, right?
One of them had a teenage boy that had a mother and a father with his two sisters, and they were live streaming basically the torture of these people, right?
Right.
They had um they had done something to the father's knee or leg.
He was bleeding profusely.
Right.
And they they wanted to take the boy, the 17-year-old boy with them to get into the other houses.
And so use him as a not a ruse, but to use the threat of shooting him.
Right, as a as a ruse to get in, right?
Right.
So hit they used him.
Then it dawned on me that I had the video of the other house he was going to go into, and Leishai's house.
The other house, and I've talked about this before, I think I talked about it a a couple a year ago, maybe, of this family.
It was it was the mother, the father, the tr three children, one of their girl, one of the daughters was had just turned 18 years old the day before the October 7th, right?
The cake was still on the table.
The 18-year-old birthday cake was still on the table.
They go in, they shoot this 18-year-old girl in front of the entire family.
They shoot her brains out in front of the dad, the mom, the children, they're all horrified.
The dad is on her.
Uh, I mean, it's it's a scene that you just you cannot forget.
You you cannot forget this.
So they come out and and so they're in the kitchen.
They they make they make them sit in the kitchen.
Then at the same time that this is happening, the young 17-year-old boy is going to Le Shai's house, trying to get in there.
He does, he brings Le Shai, her husband and her two babies, to their house.
Right.
They go in, they're all sitting at in the kitchen.
By the end of it, they kidnap, first of all, they kill the 18-year-old girl.
They killed the boy, the 17-year-old boy.
Yeah.
They kill his parents.
Yeah.
Okay.
Both of them.
And uh, and they kidnap Le Shai's husband, Omri.
Omri, and they kidnap the the lady's husband, the the one who just lost the 18-year-old daughter.
They kidnap both men, take them to Gaza.
They kill that one man, and Omri survives.
Omri comes home.
He comes home.
So this is, you know, like again, as you're I mean, what I'm saying, what we're seeing here is the way in which we develop, because you put this together piece by piece, a detailed familiarity with the incident.
And I'm, you know, I'll say just in terms of filmmaking, normally, if you have somebody like Ali Shai talking about their story, either we just have them talking, or we have to recreate the story so people have a visual image of what that must have been like.
In this case, we don't have to recreate anything because you have the actual footage.
Now, in fairness, we do not show the most graphic footage.
We don't show anybody's head being blown off.
Um, but what what we're really saying is the footage, even though it comes with a graphic warning in the film, is a greatly understated account of what actually happens.
That's right.
That's right.
I think if the American public and the world public had seen this footage on October 8th, we wouldn't be having this kind of debate quite the way it we are now.
Because let me put it this way.
I think the problem in our visual culture today, even more so than in the past, is that is that it is one thing to know about something, and it's another thing to experience it.
To see it.
Yeah, it's like if I were to tell people, you know, I grew up in India and and for example, this is what my life was like as a kid.
No, well, they're not gonna have a good idea of that.
They'll have no real, no real mental picture of what that's like.
But if I show them a video and I go, here's my house, there I am at eight years old.
That's my mom, that's my grandmother, this is what we ate for breakfast, this is the vendor selling bananas on the street, you know.
Then people go, Oh wow, well, that's what it must have felt like.
So our film does this for October 7th.
It puts you on the scene, and it allows you to, and in fact, what is I think particularly uh eerie is you see October 7th, not from the point of view of the victim, but from the point of view of the attacker.
See, now notice in a typical horror film, you'll have a family placidly sitting at dinner, their everything is very nice and and uh and perfect, and then somebody breaks a window, right?
And there's let's say a home invasion underway.
You're seeing it from the view of the victims, their terror.
But in the dragon's prophecy, you see it from the point of view of Hamas.
Of the devil.
You see this is almost like you know how serial killers will sometimes make a recording of their because they want to relive it and they're proud of what they did.
Hamas the same.
Hamas, you said it was this is like mass serial killers.
Yeah, right?
That uh this is serial killing on a grand scale.
Grand scale.
But you know, the the thing about the the filming is that we had we gone to another kibbutz, I wouldn't have had that footage.
Like I wouldn't have put it together like that.
But it was just this particular like I said, this was this was God.
I mean, it really it was, because there's no way that that that could have happened the way it happened.
It so I knew that this was like God wanted us to show this.
You know, and even and even if you had it, you had so much footage, so many hours of it.
Yeah, the ability to connect an event that you just have in an archive with the particularity of us being at that kibbutz, talking to that woman.
Um, and and now, of course, thanks to Marina Medvin, our friend, we've seen not only photos but video of the remote of um Omri coming home.
Yeah, yeah.
And uh, you know, the kids just jump into his arms and they start playing with the ball, and it's just so beautiful.
It's beautiful because of its sort of simplicity.
And you and I were struck by the extreme simplicity of their living conditions.
I mean, this is like a three-room house.
Uh there is nothing on the walls, there's barely a couch to sit on, um, a few kitchen utensils.
I mean, uh, even by Indian standards, I mean, if my family saw it, they would say these people are really poor.
And and yet, you know, this is a happy family that had been ripped apart for two years.
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No, it it really it was so tragic, but it was such a beautiful reunion.
I'm glad that that these hostages um were able to come home.
I know that they are going to have a really really rough road ahead of them.
I cannot imagine what it must be like to be captured by these demons, tortured.
And and you know, I've I've heard accounts that it wasn't just Hamas doing the torturing and and like being like horrible to these to these Jews.
It's the citizens.
It's the Palestinians.
It's the Gazan civilians.
Yeah.
I think that the fable distance between Hamas and the civilians greatly overstated.
Oh.
Uh that pretty much every civilian home in Gaza has a stash of weapons.
Um the civilians are the ones who shelter Hamas.
It's not just that Hamas grabs you, you're a human shield.
The civilians very often are like, come over here, I'll show you where you can hide.
Yeah, so we we have to make that distinction because it's not always the human shield aspect.
It's the I want to be a human shield.
Right.
Right?
Right.
So how can I help you achieve your purpose?
Maybe the children don't do that, but their parents do.
And the children are themselves indoctrinated.
Now again, we have to, we have to say that they're innocent in the sense that somebody has put these ideas in their head.
But um, you know, but I remember that scene, this is not in the film, but from social media where the basically the Palestinian old guy, he sees an IDF soldier and he's sending this kid to throw rocks at the guy and daring the IDF soldier to shoot the kid.
The kid is willingly throwing the rocks.
Now the IDF soldier holds back and doesn't do anything like that, but it's almost like the older man is inviting him to shoot.
Of course, because he's trying to create a propaganda image that will then benefit the cause.
I mean, the whole thing is so at some level, you you're almost uh, you know, morally speechless, right?
At the um at the depravity of it all.
And I think in a weird way, what's happened with this film is it has by highlighting evil, it has highlighted good in the same way that when you are in extreme darkness, The light becomes all the more dramatic.
The contrast becomes more clear.
We wanted to talk, by the way, about a couple topics before we're out of time.
One of them is uh this ongoing issue about did the Jews kill Jesus, to which you say what?
No, we kill Jesus collectively.
Meaning the sins of the world.
The sins of the world.
And and again, I always say, you know, God sent his son to bear the the to suffer at the cross for all of us for our sins.
There really isn't anything that the Jews could have done or not done because it was predetermined already.
This is Jesus' mission.
He actually came to die.
And so would you rather that let's just say the Jews didn't kill him.
Let's just say that Jesus died a natural death.
Well then he wouldn't have died for our sins.
That's right.
So do we actually want Jesus to have made it, died of old age?
Well, I think people actually forget who Jesus was or is.
Yes.
You know, you made the point the other day, and I thought it was very right on that Tucker Carlson was saying at Charlie Kirk's funeral, well, Charlie Kirk was a bit like Jesus, in the sense that basically he upset the authorities, uh, he upset some really bad people.
Uh in the case of Jesus, Tucker insinuated these are like the hummus eating people.
Uh and so as a result, you know, they killed him.
Well, at a superficial level, you could say that.
Yeah.
But the reality, as you said, is no, Charlie Kirk and Jesus died for two completely different reasons.
Uh Jesus came to die.
Uh, and Jesus' death was not only foretold.
I mean, Jesus, for example, when Judas was betraying him, Jesus knew about that.
Jesus said, you know, at the Last Supper, I know you have to leave.
You have a job to do.
So Jesus knew what was coming.
Yeah.
And Jesus, this was between Jesus and God.
Right.
Um.
And uh now, I do think that there are some people who say, well, yeah, but that's the that's the theological reading that our sins kill Jesus.
We now also need to look at the historical reading of who, just as a historical matter, who did it.
And I think the answer is it makes no sense in a society where Jesus is in the middle of an intermural debate, basically with other Jews, about who's right.
Are the Sadducees right?
Are the Pharisees right?
Who is the Messiah?
What is the right pathway to salvation?
He angers a group of the authorities.
They conspire in a very clever plot.
Uh, they have to get the Romans to sign off on it.
They kill him, but to blame the whole society, let alone all subsequent generations.
This is absurd.
Look, who killed Charlie Kirk?
That American kid, right?
So did Americans kill Charlie Kirk.
Great analogy.
You know what I mean?
America killed Charlie Kirk.
Let's blame the Americans.
They killed Charlie Kirk.
No, it was a particular cabal of Americans who either knew about it in advance, maybe conspired together.
But the idea that somehow not only that the whole society bears responsibility, but all subsequent generations of Americans are now suspect because they kill Charlie Kirk.
Right.
Right?
So you're saying this is not a it is it is kind of an equivalent in that sense.
But again, you know, we have to look at Jesus in a theological way because that's how he came to us.
That's his purpose.
That's his purpose.
That's his mission.
Exactly.
And, you know, we can we can go through the Bible, we can go through all the scriptures and everything that that says basically that Judeo Christianity is one.
Now whether, you know, so this the New Testament obviously takes on a new covenant with Jesus, but the covenant of the of the land and the promise that Abraham, you know, that God gave Abraham for his descendants and those descendants and the the rest of you know generations to come, that was not, you know, in in debate.
The way I put it, uh I put it in the framework of Augustine's city of God and city of man.
So in the city of God, in the spiritual realm, there is a new covenant.
That's right.
We agree.
Uh however, in the city of man, Which is the city of nations and covenants and deeds and uh and pacts.
In that human city, God gave this land to this particular people and to their descendants in perpetuity.
And it's very clear he never took it back.
That's right.
Nor did he give it conditionally, nor did he say that the Jews have engaged in bad behavior and forfeited somehow the right to the land.
All of this is just the invented gobbledygook of people who are who are twisting the basics of Christianity.
That's right.
We have just a little time.
I want you to talk about somebody you know and pretty well, somebody in fact, who's been messaging you uh pretty much as we speak, uh, and that is uh the great Maria Corina Machado.
Uh-huh.
Um now, when she got the Nobel Prize this year, uh, there are people who said, Oh, you know, this is uh this is a disgrace.
It should have gone to Trump.
Let's leave aside Trump's eligibility, which I think no one can deny.
Um, but let's talk about why Maria Corina Machado does, in fact, deserve the Nobel Prize.
Um, and because she is a a wonderful person in her own right, an extremely brave person.
Let's start by talking about what is the nature of her bravery.
Well, Maria Corina went after Hugo Chavez over 20 years ago.
From the beginning.
From the very beginning.
She was a she was an attorney, she wasn't a politician.
But she knew that he was going to be very, very bad for Venezuela.
She knew it then.
Uh, in fact, when um when he had a recall election.
Uh yes, um, she basically went up against him and said, Hey, you this this is fraud.
There was fraud in this election.
We need to investigate.
And then she was at the crosshairs because she went up against Hugo Chavez.
So this woman has been has been a freedom fighter in Venezuela for over 20 two decades, really.
Her whole life, she has dedicated her her adult life, she's dedicated to the cause of getting Venezuela back again, you know, making it great again, right?
And uh at her own peril, because you know, she's she's had to go into hiding.
Um, she cannot leave the country.
If she leaves the country, she can probably never come back.
Yeah, she had in the in the recent election, she they they banned her from running against Chavez.
So she had a against Chavez.
Against Maduro, sorry.
Uh she had a designated sort of surrogate, which is if you want to vote for me, vote for this guy because they're not letting me run.
Now they had the election rigged.
This is the nature of a dictatorial regime.
But interestingly, the designated surrogate fled to Spain.
Yeah.
He lives in Spain right now.
But Maria Corina, no, she's still in Venezuela.
So she is holding the fort, as they say.
Yeah.
And she is a rock of strength.
Yeah, she is.
And um by the way, we are trying to get her on the podcast.
Yeah, yeah, she's gonna be on the podcast soon.
Um, and I wrote a piece back in 2020 uh about her.
Uh really good piece, but it's but because the publication is no longer functioning, it kind of disappeared.
I'm gonna look for it again, and I'm gonna see if I can publish it somewhere.
But it's a conversation, it's a really great conversation with her about the election in Venezuela, about you know, the future of Venezuela, a lot of things.
Um, and I called her, you know, a freedom fighter.
So um, and you know, we helped her when she was campaigning.
So she's a really good person.
Um there there are factions of the Venezuelan citizens that don't think that she goes far enough.
In other words, they want her to be like the equivalent of MAGA, and they say that she's more of the equivalent of a like a rhino.
But to that I say you can't go from a communist country to MAGA.
There has to be a lot of you need to move in stage.
Increments, right?
And and so she would be the one to move because she is she is a a uh a capitalist, right?
And she does believe in freedom.
And so all of those things I mean, she's Catholic, she's conservative, she's capitalist.
She's very pro-Trump.
In fact, she said to Trump.
She dedicated my Nobel Prize to you.
You deserved it.
Extremely gracious, by the way, and She's very humble.
She is not um, you know, it it didn't go to her head, let's put it that way.
Well, you and I watched a very interesting scene, which is the very pompous guy from the Nobel committee calling Maria Corina at night to inform her that she had won the Nobel Prize, and she was so overwhelmed that this guy burst into tears.
The Swedish guy.
I mean, you know this is like a Bjorn Borg bursting into tears.
And you and I were very overwhelmed because it was so out of character.
Yeah, and to be fair, a lot of a lot of people, a lot of magas that followed Trump that loved Trump were like, no, he should have gotten it.
Um well, the the criteria, I believe, uh stopped on January of 2025 before Trump did any of these other things.
So I think the real test to see if Trump gets it or not is in 2026.
I see what you mean.
You're saying that oh, I see.
You're saying that they have a certain period and they review who has done the most to advance peace and the principles adjacent to peace in this bracket of time.
That's right.
So if they don't give it to him in 2026, we know that it's deliberate.
Because he he does deserve it, right?
But but I mean, I don't think Trump's achievement is on trial.
It's actually the Nobel Prize that's on trial, right?
Yeah, well, I mean, we know that if if they gave it to somebody like Obama.
Yeah, it reminds me of a uh there's a kind of a scene, uh kind of a funny scene where you have this guy while he's looking at the Mona Lisa, you know, and and he you can tell he's really baffled by this painting, and he's screwing up his face and he's turning his head and he's looking at it from the ground.
And finally the you know, the curator comes up and goes, you know, because he's looking like, you know, is this really a painting?
And the curator goes, sir, you know, the painting is not on trial.
Meaning your your artistic judgment may be on trial, but the painting is not on trial.
Yeah.
Trump's achievement is not on trial.
That's right.
That's right.
We all know the truth.
But before we go, what do you think of this government shutdown?
Well, you were telling me there's some data that says, well, people are blaming the the Republicans for it.
Um look, I think that using the shutdown as a pretext to thin out the ranks of the bureaucrats.
Brilliant move by Trump.
I would go even further and faster than he's doing it.
I would just start liquidating agencies and sending people home.
Nothing is gonna make the Democrats spring right back into action and concede on this than seeing their beloved useless bureaucratic class all being sent home.
By the way, not just sent home temporarily, removed from office.
Yeah, but do you really think people people are that dumb that they're blaming Republicans?
I mean, how dumb do you have to be?
Look, uh, I think uh very often this what this represents is the initial uh blast of the media, which is going to try to blame the Republican Party.
Over time, people begin to realize, oh, you know what, the government shutdowns not all that bad.
Uh hey, it's not really affecting anything that I have to do with.
Hey, this is probably gonna actually result in the government spending less money.
So I always look not just at how people see it at first glance, kind of at first sight, because first sight is then modified by second sight.
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