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May 23, 2024 - Dinesh D'Souza
47:04
DEADLY FORCE Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep839
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Coming up, I'll consider the alarming implications of the Biden DOJ's lethal force mandate in the Mar-a-Lago raid.
Abe Hamade, congressional candidate in Arizona, joins me.
We're going to talk about election integrity in that key state and also what it's like to endure a nasty primary campaign.
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When the FBI raided Mar-a-Lago, they came with a set of instructions and orders.
And the instructions were, and this is the critical line, use lethal force if necessary.
They were not instructed to use lethal force, period, but use lethal force if you have to.
And this has caused, I think, understandably, a major stir.
And it's not just because of the single line about using lethal force.
It is also about the fact that there is a sort of planning system that goes into that.
So, for example, the FBI, when they came to do the raid, they brought a medic with them.
Why would you bring a medic?
Well, in case somebody gets injured, you have a medic to treat them.
They also identified a local trauma center where you could take people to if it was necessary.
So, in other words, if people get shot in a firefight, hey, here's the local trauma center, go there.
So, these are the details as they have now come out.
And it is not insignificant that the government tried to suppress these details from coming out.
In other words, this has not been known from the start.
You would think that if all of this was quite normal, no big deal, standard operating procedure, because this is what we're hearing, and I'm going to get to that, that if that were the case, then...
There's no reason to try to fight to keep this information from getting to the public.
But it's gotten to the public only now, and only as a result of the determination and persistence of Judge Eileen Cannon.
Which is why the left hates her so much.
Why? Because she's actually kind of a legal street fighter.
She actually kind of fully understands what's going on here.
She fully understands her own position as a judge.
And she's like, alright...
I'm gonna teach these people a lesson.
And that's what she's doing. And it's kind of beautiful to watch.
Now, we have had a chorus of people, never-Trumpers, Democrats, media people, saying that we should not get worked up about this.
Why? Number one, Trump wasn't there.
And there's a good deal of finger wagging to the effect of, well, the FBI obviously knew he wasn't there, Dinesh.
So this is not a case where they were trying to, quote, go after Trump or assassinate Trump.
That's irresponsible talk.
One shouldn't even think that, let alone say that.
Well... Yes, but included in the documents were actual references to what might happen if Trump showed up.
And so, yes, the FBI knew he wasn't there, but they also knew he could turn up.
And so, the idea that sort of this was being carried out in the absolute expectation of his absence, not true.
They didn't think he was there, but they also thought he might arrive.
Now, a number of these legal reporters are pointing out, but not only the legal reporters.
In fact, a number of the FBI whistleblowers, friends of ours, people like Kyle Serafin, who has substituted for me on the podcast, people like Steve Friend, good guys, have said, you know...
This is, in fact, standard procedure.
And, in fact, Steve Friend texted me, and he was making an argument which I don't think is badly motivated or really unfair.
He said, look, I don't think they should have done the Mar-a-Lago raid, says Steve Friend.
But he goes, but, you know, the problem is when you do a raid, there's no other way to do it than to do it with guns.
Why? Because FBI people carry guns.
So, unless you have like a disarmed FBI, no guns, you're going to have to have guns.
And if you have guns, what does that mean?
That means that you have to consider the possibility that somebody will block you, will resist you, and therefore the The use of force is inherent, this is the argument, the inherent to an organization that is approaching a target and a suspect armed.
So, I understand this argument and I understand that and there's a sort of a big back and forth and Dan Bongino has gotten into it and a number of other people.
One of the January 6th attorneys is on one side, Bongino is on the other side and they're fighting about proper procedure.
In other words, what happens in the case where you've got armed agents approaching?
What happens when you have another federal agency, in this case the Secret Service, on the other side?
What are the risks of a firefight developing between the two?
What do the rules and regulations say?
This is a procedural argument, but to me, it doesn't really get to the heart of the matter.
Like, here's one of the reporters, I think Sarah Isger.
Anytime the FBI takes an adversarial action, an adversarial action, meaning against someone that is on the other side, hostile, like executing a search warrant, there is a deadly force policy.
If there's a danger to you or the public and there are no alternatives, you are authorized to use deadly force.
This is standard policy.
Okay, I understand that.
Here's Garrett O'Boyle, FBI whistleblower, good guy.
The DOJ deadly force policy is literally in every FBI order, read verbatim to every agent involved prior to the op.
This is a giant nothing.
Well, no.
Why? Because this is not a standard situation.
I mean, is it so hard to see that?
We're not talking about a normal circumstance.
A normal circumstance is you've got a situation where you've got a guy who's, let's say, holed up in a ditch.
You're going to approach him to deliver a search warrant.
Yeah, you have a lethal force policy if things get to that.
But on the other hand, this is not something that has to be applied uniformly when you consider the situation.
What is the situation? Well, let's remind ourselves that we are talking about an effort to collect documents.
So, do you want to go and shoot up the home of the former President of the United States over document collection?
Are you serious? No, that makes no sense.
Second of all, we're talking about a facility that is under the heavy protection of the Secret Service.
That's not a normal situation right there.
You've got a situation that is inherently secure.
The documents are inherently secure because they are under the protection of the Secret Service.
There is absolutely no reason to go in ready for a firefight under any circumstances at all.
Let's say the Secret Service misreads your objectives and opens fire.
Do you kill them?
Do you move in into full force?
What do you do?
What do you do in these situations?
So it's standard policy to authorize shooting your Republican political opponent when you raid his home for no good reason after running your own...
I mean, think of it. These are the people who have run the Russia collusion hoax.
These are people who have run scam upon scam upon scam.
Right now, they're running a scam in New York, acting as if...
Think of it. We have the Russia collusion scam.
That was the 2016 election.
And now they're alleging a second scam that Trump tried to rig the 2016 election by, you guessed it, paying off Stormy Daniels, as if that makes any sense.
So all of this, you know, it's standard policy, history bears it out, we do this kind of thing all the time, really doesn't make any sense.
Well, let's test to see if it makes any sense.
The FBI showed up at the Biden property.
The FBI showed up at other properties.
In fact, they went to Mike Pence's property to look for classified documents.
Did they have this same policy in effect?
The answer has to be determined.
Jackie Heinrichs, the reporter for Fox News, says that a source at the FBI told her that, yes, in effect the same policy was operative.
But Julie Kelly kind of, I think, spiked that notion by saying...
Produce the document.
In other words, here is the document that clearly says lethal force in the Trump case.
Where is the equivalent document for Biden?
Where is the equivalent document for Mike Pence?
Answer as far as I can see, because I mean, if I were Jackie Heinrichs, and I saw that, and if I had the document, I'd produce it.
But no reply, no answer, no production of documents, which to me suggests that what the FBI was doing is kind of trying to con Jackie Heinrichs and saying basically, hey listen, it was an unspoken understanding that the same rule was in place.
True, we don't have any documents to prove it.
True, we have no attachments to give you, but take our word for it, which is the one thing we've learned not to do.
We don't take their word for it.
We don't believe them.
We don't give them the presumption of veracity.
The truth of it is, this was, at best, if it was not a sly assassination attempt...
An assassination attempt, again, made all the more disturbing by the fact that this wasn't some, you know, some lone kook, some John Hinckley.
This is the actual police agencies of the Biden administration being unleashed on Trump.
It wasn't that.
The best explanation, the kindest, gentlest explanation, is that this was a horribly handled situation in which they took a sort of standard document with standard policy and go, yeah, go to Mar-a-Lago.
without somebody reading the document going, wait a minute, this isn't a normal facility, this isn't a normal situation, this is the former president of the United States, the Secret Service is involved, this is a document dispute, so this standard policy doesn't really apply in this particular case.
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Guys, I'm really delighted to welcome back to the podcast my friend Abe Hamaday.
He's a congressional candidate for Arizona District, Congressional District No.
8. Abe is a former U.S. Army Reserve Captain and intelligence officer.
He was also a Maricopa County prosecutor.
He grew up in the district.
He went to school there, and he is now campaigning for Congress.
So you can follow him on X at Abraham Hamadeh, H-A-M-A-D-E-H, or his website, Abe4Arizona, which is A-Z, Abe4AZ.com.
Abe, welcome. Thanks for joining me.
It's been a little while since we chatted.
And, you know, I gotta say, I'm scrolling social media and I see these, like, outrageous, preposterous, and, you know, to me, downright stupid attacks on you.
You know, Abe is a foreigner.
Abe doesn't care about America.
Abe is in favor of illegal immigration.
And I'm like, you know, you can have a campaign, but this to me makes absolutely no sense.
I wanted to start by asking you to tell a little bit about your American story, and then we'll talk about the campaign.
But I also want to talk to you about the issue of election fraud and your race for Arizona Attorney General.
So let's begin by just finding out who is Abe Hommadei.
Perfect. Thank you so much, Dinesh.
You know, I was born in Chicago, unfortunately.
My family came here from Syria.
I have family from Venezuela also.
So, you know, countries that are basically taken over by the Marxists and the radicals.
But we moved out here to Arizona when I was six years old, and we lived in the district, and we had a small business.
But You know, it's an all-American dream story, Dinesh.
We were on food stamps at one point.
We climbed the economic ladder.
You know, now we are very prosperous, you know, luckily, and we're blessed.
But I look around.
My brother's successful in his world.
My sister, she married an NBA player.
And here I am running for...
Congress trying to save my country.
And I didn't know I was going to be in this battle, but here I am, Dinesh.
You mentioned I was a prosecutor.
I was a prosecutor at Maricopa County Attorney's Office, which was a great honor to be putting up criminals behind bars.
But I was also a U.S. Army Reserve Captain Intelligence Officer.
I served overseas in Saudi Arabia for 14 months during 2020 and 2021.
So I saw both President Trump and Biden's foreign policy at work.
And we were getting attacks from the Houthis, missile attacks from the Houthis.
Biden, I don't understand why he decided to declassify them as a terrorist organization.
Very bizarre while we were still getting attacks.
I'm looking around us.
When I first ran for Attorney General, Dinesh, I got back to America for my deployment and I said...
I no longer recognize my country.
And I think so many people feel that way now more than ever.
It's kind of like information overload.
Here we are talking about, I've never talked more about transgenders ever in my life, Dinesh.
I don't think we have this problem.
And now here we are talking about that.
We're talking about the most ridiculous things like possibly cutting children's penises off.
It's unbelievable how they call that gender-affirming care.
The Marxists are so masterful in their words.
I'm very concerned right now we have been taken over by the Marxists.
When I decided to get in this race for Congress, and I'm proud to be endorsed by President Trump and Carrie Lake, two other warriors that have been fighting for election integrity alongside me, I looked around and I said, right now we're on a rescue mission to save the America that they stole from us.
And as I go around the district, so many people are concerned about the wide open border.
We have to go to war with the cartels.
I think it's obvious that these people are an enemy, a foreign terrorist organization.
So we have to get a lot more aggressive.
And then you look at election integrity.
I've gained so much knowledge in everything I've gone through, Dinesh, that I can't wait to go to Washington, D.C. with people like President Trump and Carrie Lake, who also understand that without election integrity, no other policy issue matters.
So we've got big challenges ahead, but I think this election is unlike any other.
It's not just about policy differences.
It's about courage.
We need people with courage to say what needs to be said and do what needs to be done.
But yeah, I see these attack ads.
This race is getting nasty.
But I think the people of Arizona, they've been seeing me fight.
They know I'm from the district.
They've been seeing me fight. They know You know, what is needed at this time.
So they're not easily tricked. And that's why we're leading the polls.
And that's why the attacks are coming my way.
So I don't mind. I've been attacked for years when I got involved in politics.
So it's nothing needed me.
Let's come back to the campaign.
I want to focus on your race for Attorney General, a race that I believe you won, and as I believe Carrie Lake won her race for the governorship.
Now, in Carrie Lake's case, there was the issue of the...
Allegations of fraud, cheating in the voting systems, and so on.
In your case, your case was in a way much simpler because you weren't, in a sense, saying, hey, listen, the machines, or hey, listen, the mules, or hey, listen, the suppression of the vote.
You were basically saying there's a whole bunch of votes here and they haven't been counted.
Now, frankly, I find it a little hard to believe how that could even be the case.
So tell the story about...
Just how you discovered this, how is it possible to have uncounted votes in an attorney general election, uncounted to this day?
So the race was decided by 280 votes out of 2.5 million, the closest race in Arizona history, where Arizona has had precedent to remove a governor that was illegitimate.
I mean, I don't know any other state that has done that, Dinesh, but here in Arizona, we actually have that law and the precedent on our side.
And you're exactly right.
In my legal cases that I filed, I want it to be a little different because typically election integrity issues and lawsuits, they always deal with fraud.
And here in my case, I never alleged fraud.
I didn't need to. That's how much we won by.
There's still 9,000 uncounted ballots.
And this is how you know it's so crooked.
the Maricopa County office, an office I used to work at, they withheld the information about the provisional ballots until a week after trial. We requested it before trial. So obviously, when the media loves to say, oh, there is no evidence, Abe, well, we can't have evidence that the government withholds it from us. And that's what the biggest miscarriage of justice.
And everybody in Arizona sees it here. All the lawyers, I mean, this has been really damaging to the legal system because the actors like Katie Hobbs, who withheld the recount discrepancy, because before the recount, we were down 511 votes, and then we went down to 280, which is a huge shift in one direction to Nashville.
And by the way, that was because of the machines.
That was because of ES&S machines down in Pinal County, which 13 other counties use.
So you look at the miscarriage of justice where Katie Hobbs, the now governor, she was Secretary of State at the time, you have Maricopa County.
They have been rewarded basically for withholding evidence because here we are, we're still in that legal battle.
And those uncounted provisional ballots, you know, it took us months to discover why this was happening because of how long the government was withholding information from us.
But what we discovered was a lot of these voters were legitimate voters.
They've been voting in the past elections.
I know the husband of a state senator who's really strong in election integrity.
His vote didn't get counted.
He's an army veteran for 30 years.
So you look at, it was a system-wide failure.
And the corrupt cabal here in Arizona is covering it up instead of wanting to address it and acknowledge that their failures has led to an illegitimate attorney general.
But, and that's why I'm loving doing this lawsuit because I'm exposing how corrupt the system is.
If we can't even get a shot at an honest and fair trial, which would allow us to count these votes, then basically what the Democrats and what the media have been so successful in these past few years, you can never challenge any election ever again.
And that's why I'm putting the...
We're getting sanctioned, Dinesh.
I've been sanctioned more than...
Any other person in Arizona for filing election challenges.
Can you believe that? The closest race in Arizona history is being sanctioned the most.
Why is that? Because they know I won and they have a hard time.
They think I'm just going to go away, but luckily I've got the support of the people and I'm enjoying exposing these phonies and crooks for what they are.
Here they are. They took, you know, I took my oath of office as a veteran, Dinesh.
That meant something to me.
Our constitution meant something to me.
And to see these judges and the legal system, you know, being totally captured by a compromised media.
They're so scared of what the media has to say that they're willing to not follow the law.
It's a very dangerous place to be.
So, we're still challenging our election results of 2022, but I think ultimately I know what their ruling is going to be.
Even though we kind of had a success last month, we had one dissent in a court of appeals decision, which has never happened in an election integrity case here in Arizona.
So we had one judge out of three who sided with us.
So that's why we're going to the Supreme Court now of Arizona to see whether they're going to give us a new trial and count those votes.
Let's take a pause when we come back more with Abe Hamade on this topic.
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It's D-I-N-E-S-H, Dinesh.
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I'm talking to Abe Hamadé, the Trump-endorsed congressional candidate for Arizona District 8.
Follow him on x at Abraham Hamadé, his website, Abe4AZ, Arizona, Abe4AZ.com.
Abe, you know, you raised an important point because there are a lot of people far away from Arizona who say, Well, Abe Hamadé, Carrie Lay, give it up, man.
These guys have been filing lawsuit after lawsuit.
it's not going anywhere. They try to present it like you're, you know, you can't accept having lost. But what you are revealing is that there are, there is a trove of uncounted votes. Now, you mentioned a moment ago that they withheld information about the existence of these votes, but presumably now the existence of the votes is disclosed.
And now you have a mystery because regardless of how political the Attorney General is or how political Katie Hobbs is, this is going to judges in Arizona.
And that's my question for you.
Is there widespread judicial corruption in Arizona?
Is it the case that on the topic of election integrity, these judges freak out and they don't want to be, quote, second guessing an election?
You mentioned also the sense of being afraid of the media.
Do they not want to be called, like, election deniers?
What do you think is going on at the judicial level?
That makes it difficult when you would think a judge would be like, wait a minute, these votes haven't been counted.
These horrible people have been trying to stop it from being counted.
Let's start counting the votes tomorrow.
Why isn't that happening? And you would expect it, especially here in Arizona.
The Supreme Court is all seven of them are Republican appointed, Dinesh.
And yet they've sanctioned me for bringing up this election challenge.
And they say they were not following the process.
And yet here we are. 18 months after that election, and Arizonans are still fighting for justice.
I think there's a mass formation psychosis going on with this election denial, whatever they want to call it.
They call all of us crazy, Dinesh.
even this one, the closest race in Arizona history, where there's been challenges that have overturned elections throughout American history.
And usually, it favors the Democrats, oddly enough.
It's because they are so successful in the argument of counting every single vote.
And somehow, they discover.
But you can go back to Washington state and the Dino Rossi case.
That one, he was up in the election day.
Then it switched over.
You can go to Al Franken.
Remember that in Minnesota?
So it's very common.
And yet, here we are in 2024, where, by the way, Dinesh, those machines that failed on election day, I mean, it was 60% of the machines that failed, where you couldn't vote, basically, for hours on end because the tabulator wasn't reading it right.
In my congressional district, it's filled with the highest number of senior citizens.
They couldn't wait in those long lines.
So that's why I'm fighting, ultimately.
So anybody who questions, you know, why we're doing this, I'm doing this to expose the compromise system.
And because at any just legal system, you know, the people that would be punished are the ones who withheld evidence.
If I did that as a prosecutor, I would be disbarred.
And yet, here I am getting bar complaints, Dinesh.
And so...
You know, I tell people this all the time.
I got into politics at a young age, and so I got a lot of time on my hands.
And I figure out that I want to know how deeply corrupt the system is.
That's why we're continuing to fight this.
If there is an honest legal system, we would get those 9,000 ballots counted.
And by the way, we know that they are 75% in favor of us.
How? Because they're all election day votes.
And that's how we won 75%.
If you look Mark Elias, he's really quiet in our election case.
Mark Elias is the Democrat super attorney.
He's always screaming count every vote, but with our case, he knows we won that race.
And it's presenting a huge challenge for the legal system here in Arizona.
But coming back to the judges for a moment, I don't understand how you could have seven Republicans who would take such a uniformly hostile position on an issue that seems so clear cut.
I mean, what is their stated rationale for not allowing your challenges or just simply saying Let's go look at the votes.
Obviously, the votes come out the other way and your expectations are wrong.
Well, there you go. But to not count votes that are sitting there on a shelf, so to speak.
I mean, how could you justify that?
Yeah, you know, I was serving overseas in Saudi Arabia during the 2020 election and the aftermath.
And I guess Arizona, you know, we had the election audit here in Arizona.
And I think, I didn't realize until I got back here and until recently that this was such national news at the time.
And so I think some of these judges, they remember that time period.
And if you look at Georgia, very similar, right?
There's Republicans in Georgia who are adamantly opposed to any reform for election integrity, even though we know there's such a compromised system.
So I think some of these Republicans, I always say they're, you know, oftentimes they're controlled opposition.
And what I mean by that is they don't even know that they're controlled.
What makes them controlled is that they're afraid to do the right thing because of pressure from the media or from the cocktail hour.
Our parties that they want to go to.
So I think ultimately, you know, it sounds crazy to say that, but I don't know any other justification why they wouldn't just follow the law.
And Dinesh, Arizona has literally precedent to remove a statewide office holder when they were illegitimate.
They've done it multiple times here in Arizona, but somehow, you know, after January 6, I think that changed So many people, especially in the judiciary, minds on a lot of this.
But ultimately, those votes were cast by real people, and they should be counted.
And we won that race.
And I wish Arizonans had justice, because right now we're dealing with such tyranny from this illegitimate attorney general, who is illegitimate, yet look at her abuse her position of office, going after the alternate electors, going after Trump associates.
It's It's despicable.
So now, Abe, you've pivoted, I think rightly so.
You're continuing the election challenges, but you're running for Congress.
Your main opponent, it seems to be Blake Masters, the guy who ran in Arizona before as well, ran for the Senate, I believe.
And here's my question.
I see some sort of I won't say back and forth because the acrimony seems to be coming mainly from one side, which is the Masters campaign attacking you.
But my question is this.
Is there an ideological difference between you and Blake Masters?
Are there issues that define the differences between you?
Or is it the case that this is a campaign that's being run largely on personality factors?
I think it's a combination of both.
I think Blake Masters, if you saw, he lacks courage, Dinesh.
In Arizona, we all witnessed when Kerry Lake and I stood up against his corruption, he ran into the arms of the corruption.
I don't know if you know this, but...
Doug Ducey, he was the governor of Arizona at the time.
He refused to meet with me in the general election, yet he went out there with Mike Pence to endorse Blake Masters.
Why is that? It's very suspicious.
You know, I don't think Blake believes in election integrity.
He never talks about it.
Here, I think I've become an expert on it in such a quick amount of time, and I'm really motivated by it because I think it's...
I think it's unacceptable what they've done to the American people, and there needs to be justice, especially the way that they go after you.
So I think that's kind of the biggest policy difference is I don't see Blake ever taking election integrity seriously.
And you look at who I'm surrounded with.
I'm surrounded by Carrie Lake.
I've been endorsed by her, President Trump, Kash Patel, Rick Grinnell, so many of these, Bernie Kerik, so many of these strong patriots that have fought the system and never capitulated.
I think that's so important.
Now more than ever, we need people with courage.
We need warriors in Washington, D.C. standing with President Trump as we root out this deep state and take out these evil villains once and for all.
So it's a little bit of personality, too.
You know, Arizona, he's not from the district.
He's from Tucson, which is two and a half hours away.
And honestly, my district was hit the hardest with those election machines going out, and they saw Blake quickly abandon the fight.
I mean, while they're still counting votes.
So, you know, I think...
Ultimately, Arizonans, that's why I'm up in the polls.
That's why I'm getting attacked so nasty, because I've stood strong to who I am, and I've earned the trust of the Arizona people, and I can't wait to represent them in Washington, D.C. Good stuff, Abe.
Well, I wish you well. I've been talking to Abe Hameday.
He's a congressional candidate, Trump endorsed for Arizona District 8.
Follow him on x at abrahamhameday.
His website, abe4az, abe4arizona.com.
Abe, always a pleasure.
Thanks for joining me.
Thank you, Dinesh.
I'm continuing my discussion of the folkways, the customary practices of the Quakers, the Anabaptists, the kind of religious dissidents who came from England, from the northern Midlands of England, moved to Delaware, Jersey, Pennsylvania, and then further into the Midwest.
And I want to talk about, begin by talking about their marriage ways, their gender ways, the ways in which the Quakers were different from, say, the Puritans in New England, and also the Cavaliers or the Royalists who came to Virginia and established the culture of the American South.
Now, Puritan culture and the same with Virginia culture was quite distinctly patriarchal.
It was patriarchal in somewhat different ways, but the Puritan father, the father of the family, was the undisputed head of the household.
Now, this was primarily the spiritual head of the household, but it trickled down into everything else.
In Virginia, you'd have to say that there was a similar patriarchal structure, but now based upon social hierarchy and convention, the father was the leader of the household, kind of the way that the king is the leader of the society and of the army.
But for the Quakers, not so.
Not that the Quakers said the father is not the head of the household.
It wouldn't go that far.
But the Quakers basically believed in a rough equality.
Equality is maybe the wrong word.
They really believed that husbands and wives are buddies.
Husbands and wives are comrades.
Husbands and wives are friends.
And kind of, they are doing this kind of together.
So, we see this, for example, in Quaker preachers, women.
One of the earliest Quaker converts was a woman named Elizabeth Hooten, and shortly after converting to Quakerism, she becomes a preacher.
So, the Quakers allow this in a way that would be almost inconceivable in a New England congregation.
The Quakers had worship common to men and women.
They sat together.
Now, there was some segregation when women and men met to discuss other matters, not worship, but business matters or social matters.
And George Fox, the Quaker prelate, explained this.
He said, So, he goes, The Quakers, by and large, allowed property to be inherited by boys as well as girls.
And so there is this sort of egalitarianism.
And I would argue that you still see, you saw a lot of that in the American Midwest.
And it was noticed by observers who traveled through the Midwest that you had this idea that husbands and wives were friends.
People wouldn't say things like, my father's house.
It's like, this is my family's house.
this is my dad and mom's house so there was a sort of presumed equality in that sense between between men and women now the Quakers were very straight-laced in this respect they were like the Puritans and by straight-laced I mean not just in behavior but also in appearance modest dress you know necklines have to be pretty much up to the neck no low-cut anything that sort of stuff and now we
We turn to Quaker naming habits.
Quaker names, very interestingly, unlike the Puritans, the Puritans by and large went for biblical names, and biblical names very often drawing on the Puritan heritage.
Old Testament names and some New Testament names, but not all.
The Virginians went also for biblical names, but they tended to go for the biblical names of saints.
And also for English names that came out of the royalist tradition in England.
Names of kings, Catherine and Charles and so on.
By and large, the Quakers went for, you call it family naming systems.
So, it's kind of like this.
If I'm Dinesh, then I'm going to name, and I have three sons, I'm going to name one son after my dad, one son after my grandfather, and the third son, you guessed it, Dinesh. And so, the historian David Hackett Fisher gives an example.
Thomas Morton marries Rachel Thomas.
Their children are named after either the grandparents or the parents themselves.
Here are the children. Joseph, parent.
Richard, grandparent.
Mary... Parent on the other side, James, Thomas, name of the dad, Rachel, name of the mom, John, parent on the other side, Joseph, grandparent on the other side.
So family names, and I'm not talking about the last name, I'm talking about the first name, is passed down constantly from generation to generation.
Now, so those are the family ways of the Quakers.
Let's talk about their religious ways.
By and large, I've talked about, but I want to describe in a little more detail, the Quaker church.
Basically an unadorned building with pretty much nothing in it.
And not only nothing physical in the building to see, the Quakers also believed that little or nothing needed to be said in the building.
In other words, it is quite possible for 30 people to go in a building, sit down, say absolutely nothing for 30 to 45 minutes and then leave.
And this would be, in fact, a Quaker religious ceremony.
Why? Because everybody is sort of tapping into the, quote, inner light.
They don't need to communicate.
They are drawing on divine resources as they believe, coming from within themselves.
And when the Quakers spoke, it was kind of weird stuff.
Here's a guy, a Swedish traveler, describing a Quaker meeting house in Philadelphia.
And he says,"...the guy stood up to talk." I'm now reading.
we sat and waited very quietly from 10 o'clock to a quarter after 11. An hour and a quarter, nothing is spoken. Finally, an old man in the front pew rose, removed his hat, turned hither and yon, and began to speak, but so softly that even in the middle of the church, which was not large, it was impossible to hear anything except the confused murmur of words." Wow. So after an An hour and a quarter and the guy goes...
No one can hear what he's saying.
They go, later he begins to talk a little louder, but so slowly that four or five minutes elapsed between sentences.
He says a sentence, four minute break, the next sentence.
Then it says, after this, he stood for a while and moved into a sing-song method in which he was now actually making sense, but at the end, quote, just as he was speaking at his best, he stopped abruptly, sat down, and put on his hat.
So, Quaker meeting service for you, guys.
And some of this you can still see today.
This echo of the Quaker way.
Now, why do the Quakers do this?
Because they believe that, by and large, they were trying to strip vanity out of their life.
So, no adornment, no fancy clothes, no fancy food, no fancy talk.
Less is more.
No big words.
No show-offery.
You want to...
Debbie's like, uh-oh.
You can never be a Quaker. Dinesh is not suited for the Quaker lifestyle.
Probably true.
Debbie thinks this especially because of the part about the speaking.
Because she's like, once Dinesh gets going, very hard to stop him at the microphone.
That too, but also the food.
And also the food.
Exactly. Good point.
We're going to come to the food.
We're going to come to the food probably.
I don't know if I'll get to it.
Well, maybe I'll get to it now.
Quaker food. Yeah, basically the Quakers, I'll say don't like food.
Yeah. Their philosophy is nothing complex, everything simple, and the founder George Fox says there should be no feasting, no reveling, no banqueting.
So, it's an anti-food philosophy, but again, it's aimed at a kind of deliberate simplicity.
Quakers often would take it upon themselves to exclude foods.
Some say, I won't eat sugar.
Why? They say, because sugar is grown by slave labor.
Other Quakers go, I'm going to ban salt because it has taxes that come out of military campaigns.
The Quakers are pacifists.
They're like, no salt.
Another woman gives up butter.
The Quakers think that baking is a little too exotic and to be avoided.
Are they skinny people?
Frying is absolutely out of the question.
Debbie's like, these people are actually pretty healthy, which may be true.
But their favorite food is boiled.
Boiled food. Wow.
Unbelievable. Boiled breakfast, boiled...
They don't really have lunch, but boiled breakfast and boiled dinner.
And boiled dumplings and boiled puddings are kind of Quaker.
Even today, if you go and you see Quaker foodstuffs, it tends to be stuff that is boiled.
The Quakers sort of invented cream cheese, which essentially came out of partially dehydrated sour cream.
And, of course, to this day, Philadelphia cream cheese, this is something that the Quakers made and ate.
They liked the idea of dehydration, so they would have preserved pork, preserved beef, essentially dehydrated materials.
And this was the Quaker philosophy.
It was essentially summarized by the idea of going plain in the world.
And I would argue that even today, if you were to classify people, you compare the Northeast, you compare the South, you compare the West and the Midwest, and ask, which are the plain people of America in terms of their dress?
Who are the guys most likely to come in a casual shirt to a business meeting, to wear a tie with either no markings on it or stripes or dots?
To speak in a very simple way.
To eat unbelievably boring food.
You're basically, you now meet the Mike Pence's of the world.
And it's no surprise that you generally will not see me at their home for dinner.
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