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March 5, 2024 - Dinesh D'Souza
48:22
THE LATINO FACTOR Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep783
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Coming up, I'll discuss the importance of voting.
It's Super Tuesday and also a new poll showing Trump's growing strength among Latinos.
Conservative activist, former Democrat Natalie Beisner joins me.
We're going to talk about how she went unwoke.
We're going to talk about the pro-life issue and also why relationships break down between so many young men and women.
Hey, if you're watching on Rumble or listening on Apple, Google or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Show.
The times are crazy.
In a time of confusion, division, and lies, we need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
Guys, today is Tuesday, Super Tuesday.
And so, if you are in one of the Super Tuesday states, like Texas, you need to get out and vote.
You need to make your voice heard.
This is your day to do it.
Now, you might say, wait a minute, we have Election Day coming up in November.
Why is it important for me to vote in the primary?
The reason it's important to vote in the primary is because you are playing a critical role in helping to decide what kind of Republican Party is going to go up against the Democrats in November.
In other words, I guess what I'm saying is that there are really two fights going on in the country.
There's one fight between the Republicans and the Democrats, between the left and the right, over the future course of the nation.
That fight will be settled in November.
But before that, prior to that, setting it up is going to be what type of Republican Party is going to be going up against the Democrats.
We need a unified Republican Party, but unified around what?
Is it going to be an establishment party, a globalist party, a Reaganite party, a Trump MAGA oriented party?
Well, the decision is really in your hands.
And this is true with Trump.
He's on the ballot. Of course, Trump is by and large running away with it.
And so to some degree that's settled.
But it's also really important to get out there and vote.
And if you're a Trumpster, vote for Trump because it's important to register your vote and for Trump to show strength at Super Tuesday.
This will also accelerate his path to the nomination.
I'm convinced that Nikki Haley is kind of hanging in there mainly to see if something happens to Trump, disabling him as a nominee, and thus, in a sense, handing the nomination to her.
That's kind of why she's in it.
But nevertheless, this is your day to send a message.
Debbie and I are going to be in Dallas with the big vote counts tonight.
We're going to check out the results and we're going to do a watch party in Brandon's district, the Denton area of Dallas, the northern suburbs of Dallas.
So we're going to be watching very closely to see how things play out.
Now, Trump has been running really strong in recent polls, not just against Nikki Haley, we already know that, but against Biden.
This is kind of significant because in 2020, I think apart from Rasmussen, there was not a single poll showing Trump even in striking distance of Biden.
Biden was just way ahead.
And yet, the election was a virtual tie.
The election was really close.
And let's just set aside for the moment the issue of fraud.
Let's just talk about the numbers as they came in.
Just a handful of votes tipping the other way, and the outcome would have been different.
Essentially, Biden won a number of the swing states by very close margins.
Again, how he won that is something I'm not going to discuss right now.
Trump is leading Biden in the critical swing states, and he's leading by a pretty sizable margin.
And he's leading, again, not in the Rasmussen survey or the Rasmussen survey.
He's leading in major surveys across the board.
The latest is the New York Times-Siena poll.
And what I got out of that was that Trump is tied with Biden's We're good to go.
Who voted in very small numbers.
I mean, what is it, 18 or 19% for Trump?
Thereabouts in 2016, Trump improved his margin somewhat, but not significantly in 2020.
He got a little bigger share of the Latino vote, but the Latino vote is he now has more Latinos than Biden.
In other words, he's beating out Biden for the Latino vote, and that is very, very bad news for the Democrats.
Now again, some people go, I've seen some headlines, despite illegal immigration, Trump is still leading among Latinos.
Well, you have to ask the question of a despite or is it really because?
Are Latinos being radicalized toward the Republicans because of the border?
Now, of course, when I tell Debbie some of these poll results, she always shakes her head and goes, well, I'm just not very optimistic about 2024.
And the reason is, of course, the cheating, the fraud.
Trump himself seems very aware of this.
And what Trump was basically implying is, I'm going to win so decisively that my margin is going to be too big to rig.
Now, Trump did not say that they're going to allow the cheating.
In fact, he implied that the new head of the RNC is going to be all over this.
And moreover, says Trump, he goes, when I get into office, I'm going to be putting these people behind bars so that there's going to be a massive crackdown on cheating operations, almost as if warning the Democrats ahead of time, listen, if you want to cheat, you're taking a great risk.
And in fact, you're completely betting that your side is going to win and then cover up all the cheating.
Because if you don't, don't think that you'll be able to elude prosecution the way that you did in 2020.
So this issue of election integrity has come front and center.
And it's very obvious that when I look these days and I see all these people talking about, you know, Jack Smith is desperate to have his January 6th case go before the election.
And even if the Supreme Court takes its time in deciding the issue of presidential immunity, let's hope that Judge Tanya Chutkin can accelerate the trial schedule so that the trial occurs before the election.
And right away you begin to think, Although the Democrats use the rhetoric, the public has a right to a speedy trial.
You can tell that what they mean by all this is we've got to get a guilty verdict on Trump.
We've got to sort of, if we can't get Trump physically off the ballot, we have to find a way to effectively take him off the ballot.
And we're looking at a judicial conviction that Even if the conviction is later appealed and overturned, it won't even matter because the shockwave will have gone through the country.
You've got a man who has the Republican nomination who has been convicted of a crime, and a serious crime in the January 6th case.
So this is all lawfare.
2024 is the lawfare election, and we're seeing it coming from so many different fronts.
So no one can, I think, confidently predict, whatever the polls say, where this is actually going to go.
All we can say is that the one predictable thing about 2024 is that many unpredictable things are going to happen this year.
We just need to be ready for all of them.
Financial experts thought we were in the clear.
They were anticipating around six rate cuts by the Fed this year, and then the inflation data came out.
Higher than expected, friends.
This isn't going away.
It can't. The U.S. is $34 trillion in the hole, and yet we keep printing money, which pushes the prices you pay every day even higher.
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Guys, I'm really happy to welcome to the podcast a new guest.
Her name is Natalie Beisner.
I first encountered her videos on social media and she tackles some really tough topics.
The topic of abortion, the topic of men and women and relationships.
And to say that she's a voice of reason is a kind of understatement.
She brings a kind of an eloquence to these topics that I find really striking.
So I wanted to invite her to the podcast.
She is a former atheist, a former feminist, a former Democrat, but she has moved in the right direction.
She is now a Christian conservative content creator.
By the way, you can follow her on x at NJ Beisner.
That's B-E-I-S-N-E-R.
Or on Instagram, Natalie Jean Beisner.
Natalie, welcome.
Thanks for joining me.
Thanks for having me, Dinesh.
Really appreciate it.
Let's start by just talking.
Since you're on the podcast the first time, I'd like to find out about your sort of political and moral journey away from feminism, atheism, the Democrats, the left...
Because maybe that's actually what gives you a window in being able to make the kind of videos you do today.
So talk a little bit about your background.
Well, first of all, how did you move leftward in the first place?
And then what caused you to pivot the other way?
I think I was reflexively a Democrat.
I grew up in Southern California.
I live in Los Angeles now.
I have lived in Southern California my whole life.
I was an actress for a while.
So I just think that people, especially I'm a millennial, People in Southern California, obviously the acting community, I think my generation as well.
It's different in different parts of the country, but everyone's just a Democrat.
And I think it's shifting now in a lot of ways.
But I thought that that was the compassionate way to vote.
I never really questioned it.
And I also want to emphasize that I was not politically involved at all.
I was not politically informed.
Yeah.
Democrat or Republican or any other party.
So I just, I never thought about it.
And what made me start to think about it and is the catalyst for my shift is summer 2020, living in Los Angeles.
I had, of course, lost my jobs because of the response to COVID, and I had complied with everything, like so many people, and I was doing everything right.
And I thought it was insane that I could go out and protest or riot.
It was very clear that I could do that.
On behalf of George Floyd, but I still couldn't go to work.
And whenever I brought that up to my liberal friends, all my friends were liberal, I would write these overly long Facebook posts, very polite.
I was constantly called selfish and I was called racist.
Which blew my mind because here I had been doing everything right and I just wanted and needed to go back to work and go back to my life.
And there was this refusal to acknowledge that I might have any honest reason for that.
And it was this weird tie-in between the response to COVID and then the response to George Floyd's death.
and there was this rhetoric going on online, because so many of us were online at the time we were all home, that it was only white women who really cared about getting back to opening up because they needed to go get their hair done.
And I just thought that was absurd, because obviously people of all colors go get their hair done, but also the hairdresser, that job is essential to the hairdresser, you know.
So and my job felt essential to me.
And that was really like a shifting moment for me, where I just walked away from the Democratic Party because I had thought they were for the underdog.
I had thought that they were for women and minorities and all of these allegedly oppressed groups, which I would push back on now that the folks that were told are oppressed are actually oppressed.
But... It was clear to me that it was nonsense.
And that went on, I want to also emphasize, it went on for well over a summer.
It went on for two years in Los Angeles.
So everything that I felt in that summer, I was proven correct.
We were in a mask mandate for two years.
Vaccine passports did come down.
I was not able to go into a bar or restaurant, which isn't the end of the world.
But I also have paid taxes in this state my entire life.
And the idea that I couldn't go in and get service as a law-abiding citizen is absolutely outrageous.
And it proved me correct.
And that really opened the floodgates to where it was almost like the veil had been lifted.
I do think in many ways the Democratic Party is cult-like.
You can't question anything.
If you question one thing, even if you check all the boxes, then you're persona non grata.
And I started listening to these other voices that I didn't even know existed, honestly.
People who are very well known, but I had never known.
And A lot of people that I had hated for no reason.
And I realized that the conservative perspective very often makes the most sense.
And it started this avalanche of shifting where I didn't jump from one extreme to the other.
But over the course of about a year and a half, I have become very conservative, very politically involved and informed for the first time in my life.
And I have a real passion for, I feel like I was lied to for a very long time.
And I would like to help to spread the truth because it sucks.
It sucks to be lied to and turn around and wake up relatively later than I would have liked and realized how many lives we were sold.
Natalie, let's talk about the pro-life issue because that is, I mean, I would argue even beyond the issue of a right, it's virtually sacramental on the left, this notion of a woman, quote, controlling her own body.
Now, there's some counter rhetoric that comes from the right to the effect of women, quote, choosing life.
One of the things I find interesting about your work is that even though you've made a journey from atheism toward Christianity, you nevertheless make the case for affirming life.
In its most basic, scientific, but also commonsensical terms.
In a sense, you're describing what people see when a woman gets pregnant and you're able to look inside and take a look and see, is it a baby?
Is it six weeks old?
What's it doing? You describe things at that level.
So talk a little bit about...
Do you think that the key to the abortion issue is simply the basic question of when does human life begin?
And once we take the answer to that question on board, everything else in a sense becomes more clear.
I wish it were that simple.
I don't think it will be that simple because the answer is clear that life begins at fertilization when a whole, individuated, genetically distinct living human organism is formed.
And that is something we know.
And I'm embarrassed to say it, but when I was on the left and I would have called myself pro-choice, now I would call it pro-abortion.
I think the modern day pro-choice movement is pro-abortion and they're proud of it.
I did not realize that life began at fertilization and begins.
I don't know if I blocked it out.
I don't know if it had been a minute since biology.
And I genuinely believe that a lot of people who argue for abortion do not realize that.
And that might be intentional ignorance.
I'm not excusing it.
But there is, I constantly hear the term potential human or a potential life.
And the fact of the matter is, and the reason that I often don't mention God, I believe God is on our side because, science is on our side because God is on our side.
I think we have God on our side.
I know we have God on our side.
All of the morality, the ethics, the science is on the side of life.
They have emotion. It's strong emotion and it's maybe justified, but it's purely emotion.
They have nothing else. And you don't actually need to mention.
The only people who mention religion are the people fighting for abortion and they want to turn it on you that it's your faith, it's you pushing your religion, but life begins at fertilization.
And the interesting thing is that these people talk about bodily autonomy and they talk about choice, but in the very act of abortion, they are robbing a human of bodily autonomy and of choice in the worst way possible, in a fatal way.
And these are the same people who also talk about the oppressed and these groups that are allegedly trodden on by the powerful, the stronger.
And yet, in the very act of abortion, they're doing that to pre-born humans, who I would argue are the most oppressed amongst us because they have no voice, they rely on us for everything.
And they're perpetuating this system of stronger people dominating weaker people, And it's almost like every single point that they have, they negate it themselves.
If you put any two points together on the pro-choice, quote-unquote, side of things, they will not hold water when they stand side by side.
And so... I wish that more people would realize when life begins.
I don't think that will be enough for people to wake up.
I think that we have been, as I said previously, lied to for so long, women especially.
There has been for decades now brainwashing of women to try to make us more like men, to where we work like men, work the same jobs, the same number of hours, to where we are able to have physical intimacy like men and not get pregnant.
We view our biology as some kind of Curse, etc.
So it is decades of brainwashing.
And of course, Roe for decades standing telling women that there was this right that indeed was not there.
So I think it will be legislation and also changing the culture as well.
I don't think everyone is going to be moved by the fact that life does begin at fertilization.
But I do believe a lot of people do not realize that.
and you have to come to terms with the fact that you are arguing when you argue for abortion, you're arguing the fact that being human and alive is not enough to have the right to your own life.
That you have to be human and alive and something else.
And that's a very slippery slope.
That's the basis for slavery.
That's the basis for every single human rights violation, that you have to be human and alive.
And also this other thing.
Also born.
Also cognitively developed, quote-unquote, enough.
Well, what is cognitively developed enough?
You have to be in the right environment, so you have to be out of the uterus.
You know, that is a very slippery slope to have humans determining that being human and alive is not enough to have the right to your own life.
We'll be right back with Natalie Beisner.
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Natalie, you were saying in the last segment that when you put the progressive arguments for abortion kind of under the microscope, they kind of all fall apart.
And it seems to me that when that happens, there's usually something else going on because people aren't that dumb that they're constantly making logical errors.
They're usually something at stake.
And it seems to me that...
There's been a realization on the left, and this kind of ties the pro-life issue to the issue of men and women that you talk about a lot, that abortion is the debris of the sexual revolution.
In other words, when you have a sexual revolution, you're going to have some Probably quite a lot of unwanted pregnancies so that you can't really question abortion.
You have to defend it however ridiculous your arguments because otherwise you put this other thing into question that you don't want questioned.
Now, I think the important thing about your work is that you're not just talking about pro-life but you also begin to look at what has gone wrong in the sort of connection between men and women Particularly in your own generation now.
Did you go from one issue to the other by seeing this kind of a connection?
Or is it just that you began to tackle the two issues separately and then observed, whoa, there may be a link between them?
I think I started talking about abortion because I'm very passionate about it.
And then the more that you speak and the more you're online, the deeper you go down the rabbit hole.
And what I have seen, especially online, and I understand that online isn't necessarily the real world, but I think it can point to real world truths because these are real people online speaking, oftentimes anonymously.
So they speak in ways that they wouldn't in real life.
And what I've realized is there is so much resentment From both genders, both sexes towards the opposite gender.
And there's all of this vitriol and hatred and heartbreak.
And I, you know, right now in the US, we have one in four 40 year olds who've never been married.
And that includes men too.
You know, it's not just a women's issue.
And I think that's a crazy number.
And so I started speaking about it because I'm tired of the battle of the sexist, you know, it's been going on for so long.
I think abortion is a huge part. Like I said previously, women have been lied to.
We have been pushed to be basically second-rate men, and we're never going to be as good of men as men are going to be.
We don't value the things that make women specifically women.
And so, really, it's no wonder that now we're here in 2024 and a man can allegedly become a woman and a woman can allegedly become a man and nobody knows what a woman is.
Really, the writing was on the wall for a long time because we have treated men and women as all but interchangeable.
And I understand why that would cause a lot of anger and resentment in both men and women because women have been lied to.
I think oftentimes women realize it What might be seen as too late to have the things that they desire.
A lot of times they're shamed for their desires, they're shamed for their biology.
And also men have been told for decades now that they're not needed, that women can do anything better.
You know, the dad is treated as the buffoon on the commercial or the television show, all of that.
And so I think there's just so much resentment and it's coming forth in the fact that so many of us are unmarried, we're getting married later and later, there's fertility issues, there's men who don't want to get married because of no-fault divorce and the biased courts against men and fathers and all of that is an issue.
Valid issues. But at the end of the day, I believe that the path forward is going back to God, you know, going back to traditionalism.
I know that will set some people off, but there's a reason that tradition is tradition.
And a woman's always going to be a woman, a man's always going to be a man, and families, even if someone really never wants to get married, they think it's crazy for a man to do whatever it is, Families are foundational to freedom.
And so we all have a vested interest in keeping the family unit, which is the basic building block of society, intact.
Whether it ever happens for you or not, whether you ever want it or not.
And so this vitriol against women or against men or against marriage is...
Absolutely destructive to our society.
And abortion, of course, has helped to facilitate that.
Contraception has helped to facilitate that.
I'm not coming for anyone's contraception, but with the advent of contraception, we get more abortions because women used to have a vested interest in protecting who they chose to go to bed with because we are physically more vulnerable.
Now we don't have that anymore.
So if something happens and something breaks or it's not used properly, you believe you have a right to have this intimacy without having the pregnancy because you can't afford it or whatever it is, so you go get an abortion.
So really, contraception has helped to fuel abortions.
All of it's tied back to the sexual revolution.
I know we can't put that genie back in the bottle, but you look around, so many of us are unhappy, dissatisfied.
The way we have been told to live doesn't pan out, doesn't work.
And so we do need a clearer path forward where men and women are working in tandem, complementary, the way that we were supposed to.
I mean, part of what you seem to be saying is that the effect of feminism was to create a certain masculinized woman that there has now been a, and maybe guys like Andrew Tate and these guys are a reflection of this,
a kind of male reaction against that, but Even though a lot of young men are attracted to that because they have grown up in this world of masculinized women, what you seem to be saying is that this is an unhealthy reaction because it radicalizes the problem even further.
And what is really needed is for both men and women to sort of lay down their arms, if I can put it that way, and kind of look at the way that their parents and grandparents did it, which was a better way.
And rediscover a more traditional formula which is a better way for not only men and women but also children to live more happy and fulfilling lives.
Is that a pretty good summary of what you're trying to say?
Absolutely. You know, our grandparents didn't get everything wrong.
They got some stuff wrong, and I think we've ultimately corrected a lot of that.
But we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and I think they call it the red pill, the manosphere, etc.
It's very toxic.
And it draws in a lot of conservative men, even Christian men, even though it is very much anti-Christian.
You know, it's encouraging men to sleep around, which the Bible is obviously clear for anyone who's a Christian on fornication, that there's not different rules for different genders.
So, I understand the appeal, but I believe it is just as toxic, just as extreme as feminism.
It's basically selling a different lie that men don't need women except for one purpose.
And you are fueling the very problem that you complain about.
You know, men complain about the fact that they have to put in double the effort for one-third of the woman that their grandmother was, whatever it is.
And yet, if you are complaining about the quality of women, the low quality that you think you see around you, and you are also sleeping with a bunch of women, which in your view makes them, quote-unquote, lower quality, although we all have, of course, inherent worth in Christ, well then you're contributing to the problem.
You're churning out these women who cannot become easy or promiscuous or loose by themselves.
It takes a man, it takes men, it takes multiple men.
And ultimately, women are responsible, adult women are responsible for their actions, adult men are too.
So it's no one gender's fault, no one's necessarily preying on anyone else.
But you are actively, as a man who promotes this movement, Andrew Tate, who I think says many valuable things, many honest, many true things, but when you promote promiscuity in men, you are contributing to the problem.
When you tell men to not get married, you are contributing to the very problem that you are complaining about.
There really is only one path forward, and I think so much of this is because we have lost God, and so everything has gotten so backwards and so crazy, and even if someone chooses to not believe, isn't there yet, whatever it is, tradition is tradition for a reason.
Traditional gender roles are traditional for a reason.
The truth is the truth. It will always remain the truth.
And families are absolutely necessary.
And people going around being promiscuous, talking smack on the opposite sex, whatever it is, it hasn't helped us at all.
It's not getting us anywhere good.
So we need to take a look at that and really think it through.
Yeah. And do you think, just to wrap it up, do you think that this is a turnaround that can in fact happen?
I say this because, you know, just if we take a look back, let's just say at America over the past 100 years, you see that when you have this kind of loosening of cultural bonds, let's just say the breakup of small towns and the way that small town America doesn't exist anymore, That doesn't seem to be an easy way to recover that.
And so, even if you're speaking truths and people are like, whoa, this would have been a better way to go, it remains another question about whether you can actually get there.
And I just wanted to close out by asking you, are you hopeful or optimistic that there can be a recovery of the things you're talking about?
Or is the recovery going to be limited to really pockets of people who go, I don't want to go the way that the mainstream culture is going.
I'm going to choose a different road for myself.
What are you aiming to achieve when you put your message out there?
Uh, so, well, I have my black pill days, just like anyone else, especially now, nowadays.
But ultimately, I am hopeful.
Like I said, I want to spread the truth because even though I don't think I'm going to change anyone's mind on social media, I don't think social media is necessarily geared toward that.
I think sometimes you plant seeds.
Maybe there were seeds planted for me.
In fact, looking back prior to 2020, in retrospect now, I can see that there were.
But I didn't take them at the time.
I remained in the dark for a long time, and that is what it is.
the truth, you know, it'll remain the truth, but I don't think it'll, we have to preserve it. Otherwise, the next generation isn't going to know it. It'll always be the truth, but it'll get lost in the mire. And so that is my ultimate goal. I do have hope, though. I think that things will shift, you know, it's becoming mainstream now for Gen Z women to talk about getting off of the hormonal birth control, you know, with regardless of religion, whatever it is, or not wanting to be promiscuous. They're talking about the effects on their mood and on their bodies, etc. And that is something that didn't happen.
In my generation. So that is hopeful that that's coming into the mainstream. I also think so many people are unhappy that eventually, we will realize that there's another way to live. That's what happened in my own life. I was unhappy. I had been living according to secular rules and the way the world tells us to live, tells millennial women to live. And it had led me to suffering. And then summer 2020 happened and all of that was put upon it.
But if I had already been happy in my life, I don't think I would have had some kind of awakening shifting moment. So I do think you have to suffer on a micro and a macro level in order to change. But ultimately, I do think we can change.
I have hope for the future.
I have no love for abortion or gender ideology or any of it, but the fact the matter is, even though we need to stop it, one side is killing their children.
They are sterilizing their children.
I think it should stop immediately.
But I believe the future will be conservative because the other side is not killing their children and not sterilizing their children, etc.
So I have great hope for the future.
I don't know if it'll be a mass, you know, coming to Christ and awakening.
Of course, I have hope for that.
But I do believe that these little pockets will continue to sprout up.
And what that means for the future of the United States, I don't know.
That's obviously a bigger question.
But I absolutely just anecdotally can tell you that being online, being in person, meeting people the last four years of shifting, so many people have had some type of shift in the last four years.
So many people had something happen in 2020.
It was almost impossible to not.
And so whether they became conservative Christian and started speaking online or not, they really, a lot of people have had the veil lifted from their eyes.
So I do have a lot of hope for the future, and I'm going to, you know, keep speaking the truth to that end.
Guys, check out her work on social media.
It's Natalie Beisner I've been talking to.
You can follow her on XNJ, at NJ Beisner, or Instagram, Natalie Jean Beisner.
Natalie, thank you very much for joining me.
Thank you, Dinesh. I'm talking about Harry Jaffa's great book, Crisis of the House Divided, and we are discussing Lincoln's Lyceum speech, a speech that is a denunciation of mob rule.
Lincoln wants to make some important points about mob rule, but he goes about it in a very strange way.
And I'm going to read a paragraph that gets to the heart of the matter.
Lincoln has a single...
Very clear example that he wants to bring out.
And he says that events happening in the state of Mississippi and in St.
Louis are perhaps the most dangerous example and revolting to humanity.
Now, here's what he says.
In the Mississippi case, he says they first commenced by hanging the regular gamblers.
A set of men, certainly not following for a livelihood a very useful or very honest occupation, but one which so far from being forbidden by the law was actually licensed by an act of the legislature, passed but a single year before.
Next, Negroes, suspected of conspiring to raise an insurrection, were caught up and hanged in all parts of the state.
Then white men, supposed to be in league with the Negroes, and finally strangers from neighboring states, going thither on business, were in many instances subjected to the same fate.
Now, this passage, if you really think about it, is very, very odd, because Lincoln is talking about the gamblers who apparently rounded up and hanged.
And you might expect Lincoln to say something like, well, you know, gambling is not a good thing, but hanging the gamblers is absolutely much worse.
But Lincoln doesn't do that.
In fact, he says, and now quoting him, Abstractly considered the hanging of the gamblers was of but little consequence.
They constitute a portion of population that is worse than useless in any community.
And their death, if no pernicious example be set by it, is never matter of reasonable regret with anyone.
The implication of this is that gamblers are so useless that it's not a big social loss to go ahead and hang them.
You have to begin to think about why Lincoln would say something so surpassingly strange.
And then he goes on to make it even stranger by turning to the case...
man in St. Louis.
Here's Lincoln.
Similar, too, is the correct reasoning in regard to the burning of the Negro at St.
Louis.
He had forfeited his life by the perpetration of an outrageous murder upon one of the most worthy and respectable citizens of the city, and had he not died as he did, he must have died by sentence of the law in a very short time.
As to him alone, it was as well the way it was as it could otherwise have been.
Lincoln seems to be saying that, yeah, they lynched this black guy, but kind of so what?
What's the big deal?
First of all, the guy is a murderer.
You know, Lincoln is, what I'm emphasizing here is what Lincoln doesn't say.
Because Lincoln could easily have said, well, listen, the guy has been charged with a murder.
But guess what? He hasn't been convicted.
He hasn't been tried.
He hasn't had due process of law.
But Lincoln doesn't say that.
Lincoln basically says he did the murder, and if we didn't string him up and hang him the way that the lynchers did, the law would have hanged him.
So the outcome is kind of totally the same.
So what you have here is, even though Lincoln is giving a speech defending the rule of law against mob rule, He seems in a very odd way to be saying that the people who lynched the gamblers and the people who lynched the black guy, as well as some white guys, as we'll find out very soon, there were some white guys who were also attacked by the mob.
And who were these white guys?
Abolitionists. They were abolitionists from the north who came down to St.
Louis, were attacked by a mob in St.
Louis, And Lincoln is, in a very strange way, not going into the details of the incident.
So let's talk about what the incident he's talking about.
The incident that he's talking about is a lynching that occurred involving an abolitionist editor named Elijah Parrish Lovejoy.
The Lovejoy lynching.
Now, Lincoln could easily say, hey, there was a white abolitionist who came down here and got lynched, and the lynching was terrible, and abolitionists should be allowed their free speech.
Lincoln is in a way defending the free speech of abolitionists, but he doesn't defend it that way at all.
In fact, he makes no real mention.
At one point he touches on abolition, but he doesn't really bring it up.
And you can't understand Lincoln's Lyceum address without realizing why.
Lincoln operates, makes an argument in this very strange manner.
As I said, what Lincoln appears to be doing is giving some support to the prejudices of the mob.
And now you want to ask why a leader in a democratic society would do that.
At one point, Lincoln famously wrote, and this is not directly connected with this speech or this incident, that in a democratic society, public opinion is critical.
Public opinion rules the society.
And so, for Lincoln, public opinion is always something that a democratic leader, a politician, should give deference to, should give respect to, even when this public opinion is mistaken or wrong or even prejudicial.
Because Lincoln's point is that even in prejudice, There is some wisdom.
I realize in the kind of things I'm saying, a lot of people, and certainly not conventional, call prejudices.
What to measure? Defending prejudices.
Lincoln's point is that prejudices usually arise from some aspiration to justice.
So for example, let's take the gamblers.
Why do you think that people rounded up these gamblers and hang them?
Lincoln is not in defense of the mob rule.
His old speech is against mob rule.
But his point is, gamblers are extremely destructive to society.
Why? What do they do?
First of all, these gamblers take the meager earnings of the family and waste it on gambling and drink.
So this is destroying the integrity of the household.
Think of all the abandoned wives, all the abandoned children.
So Lincoln's point is that the rage against this sort of gambling community on the part of this emerging temperance movement, Lincoln's like, I actually understand where that's coming from.
The desire to sort of go in there and shut these places down and grab these people and stop this is, even if it is a prejudice, it is a prejudice grounded in a desire for justice.
The same thing in the case of the murder.
You got this guy This black guy who is genuinely believed to have perpetrated an outrageous murder.
And what happens is you have this feeling of just rage in the community and people go, let's round up a lynch mob and go get this guy.
Now, again, Lincoln's point is that is not the way to do it.
But Lincoln has to begin by saying, Look, if the guy did it, and Lincoln's assumption is that he did do it, Lincoln's assumption is not that this is an innocent man, this is not like a replay of Gregory Peck and a very carefully staged plot in which it's quite obvious that the guy who's being accused is innocent.
Lincoln knows that in many cases the guy is guilty.
And so if you're really going to defend the rule of law, you have to defend the rule of law against the mob going after not an innocent person.
That's easy to do. He never even did it.
It's hard to do when you're saying the mob should not go after a guy even if he did it.
So this is the burden that Lincoln sets upon himself.
And this is part of what lifts the speech to something that's worth reading 150 years later.
It is attacking mob rule.
Not at its worst.
The mob is utterly out of control.
It's acting for no reason whatsoever.
No. Lincoln is acting as if the mob...
Does have a point.
The mob is trying to reform society.
The mob is trying to establish justice.
And yet, says Lincoln, mob rule is, for reasons that he's going to give in the speech, not the way to go.
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