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June 22, 2023 - Dinesh D'Souza
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THEY ALL KNEW Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep606
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Coming up, I'll show how all the major players from Obama to Hillary to Comey knew that they were wrongfully and treasonously framing Trump for Russia collusion.
Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich joins me.
We're going to talk about current events in terms of Lady Justice and her famous blindfold.
And Debbie joins me for our roundup.
We're going to talk about whether the Democrats were ever a decent party and whether Indian Prime Minister Modi is now Biden's best friend.
Hey, if you're watching on Rumble or listening on Apple or Google or Spotify, please subscribe to the podcast.
I'd appreciate it.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Show.
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John Durham testified before Congress, the House Judiciary Committee, on Wednesday, yesterday.
And in some ways I followed this with very mixed feelings because it was clearly the last chapter of this very drawn out, extended Durham inquiry, an inquiry that at the end produced not a whole lot.
A report, but not really what Durham was tasked with doing.
He was tasked with looking widely at issues of corruption, of the actions of the police agencies of government, the actions of the Hillary Clinton campaign, perhaps the actions of Obama.
And Durham...
Failed. I mean, he neglected his job.
He was ultimately a disappointment and a dud.
Now, to watch him preening up there, and in fact, even some of the news articles, Durham, you know, lays it all out, Durham doesn't hold back.
Well, when you're a special counsel...
Not holding back in testimony is one thing, but you're not supposed to hold back in your prosecutorial authority and in your actual investigation.
And unfortunately, this is where Durham, I think, has failed not only us, but really failed the country.
And in that sense, worsened and intensified the problems that we face as a society, problems with dual standards of justice and all the rest.
So, in that sense, I think the whole thing has been a sordid and sorry chapter in recent American history.
One interesting detail emerged yesterday from Durham's testimony that I want to focus on because it is significant in and of itself.
And that is, it is a detail that says that in 2016, the CIA received intelligence, which was shared with the FBI and was shared with Obama and with Joe Biden and with leading figures in the White House,
and to the effect that the The project to get Trump on Russia collusion, the idea that Trump was a Russian asset, was an idea originating with Hillary Clinton and the Clinton campaign.
So let's digest this for a moment because what Durham is saying is that it is not the case that That the FBI was misled about this.
They thought that Trump was a Russian asset.
They proceeded on that basis with kind of the honest belief.
No. The FBI was informed by the CIA in 2016.
Listen. The people who are cooking up this scheme to paint Trump as a Russian asset is none other than his political opponent, the rival political campaign.
And it wasn't just that the FBI knew about this and ignored it.
Ignored is actually Durham's term.
But there was a meeting in the White House with Obama and Joe Biden, and a lot of the top brass of the White House was there as well.
And James Clapper, who was at that point representing the CIA and conveying the intelligence from the CIA, James Clapper told everybody in the room, and I'm sorry, it wasn't actually Clapper, it was CIA Director John Brennan.
CIA Director John Brennan notified the group, including Obama, including Biden, that, hey, this is a Clinton campaign idea. And so right away, these guys should have been on high alert, should have recognized that, listen, it's not their job to advance one campaign over another.
It's not their job to use the police apparatus of the government to go after a rival political candidate. But this just shows the bottomless dishonesty of Obama, of Biden, of James Comey, who is also in the room.
The point is that they knew.
They all knew.
They were all in on it.
So here is Durham telling us something that we have long suspected, that this was a conscious, intentional, deliberate project to get Trump.
But he's stating it matter-of-factly.
And the problem I have with Durham is that you say something like this and then you have to ask, well, what conclusion do you draw from it?
And Durham draws the narrowest of conclusions.
Well, what this really shows us is that the FBI needs to be a little bit more careful in the future.
The FBI in this case, well, let me just read from Durham because you get a feeling of the type of rhetoric we're getting from this guy.
The FBI was too willing to accept and use politically funded and uncorroborated opposition research.
Well, yeah, they were too willing to do it, but it's one thing for them to say that they dropped their normal high standards.
It's another thing to say that they were part of...
Of a cabal that was trying to undermine Trump, prevent him from getting elected, interfere in the 2016 election, deprive the American people of their choice of who the president should be.
So this kind of lame platitude, this boilerplate rhetoric coming from Durham, I think is a massive disappointment and a dereliction of duty on his part.
We are seeing corruption at the highest levels of government and the people in the position to do something about it, in this case one John Durham, have fallen woefully short.
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Guys, I'm really happy to welcome back to the podcast Rod Blagojevich, former governor of Illinois.
In fact, the 40th governor of Illinois.
He's now an author, speaker, podcast host, and boy, does he know a thing or two about the injustice of our justice system.
You can follow him on Twitter at Real Blagojevich, B-L-A-G-O-J-E-V-I-C-H. Rod, a pleasure.
Great to have you on the podcast.
And, you know, we both have this thing in common in the sense that we were a target of political attack and Early on, before this was something that was widespread, before the public was really familiar about it,
do you think that this kind of political targeting has been standard practice in American politics, or do you think that it is now just kind of a nasty turn that seems to have developed only in the last several years?
Question. Before I answer that, let me just say that my whole life I've been having to spell my last name.
You know, people messed it up since I started in kindergarten and pretty much all through politics.
And now, after what they did to me, I spell my name a little bit differently.
I say B-L-A-G as in not guilty.
O-J-E-V-I-C-H. No, I think...
I think, Dinesh, it's the latter.
I think it's been something that's been gradually developing.
I think it's a lot like everything else in life, whether it's in professional sports or entertainment business, it's a copycat league.
I do believe that when these federal prosecutors were successful in taking out a Democrat governor at the AAA level all those years ago, they were emboldened.
They felt that they were able to do what they did to a governor.
Let's now try a president.
I think what they did to you is an example of sort of the weaponization of prosecutors going after things that are routine and common and standard practice that they now are criminalizing.
And now what they're doing to President Trump, of course, is at a level that's never been seen before.
It's an unprecedented, poisonous political hit by this prosecutor, Jack Smith, bringing criminal charges on a case involving a president's documents.
People have discussed this a lot, so I won't go into all of that.
But it's really preposterous.
And through my own experience, Dinesh's, they brought with it the charges against me.
It was not unusual for me to periodically say to my lawyers, you mean to tell me that's now a crime?
Since when did they change the law and make that a crime?
So I think we're facing something that's, I think, is probably the central issue of our time.
And that is these corrupt, uncontrolled, unchecked, weaponized prosecutors who inject themselves into the political process.
And Jack Smith What he's doing to President Trump, he has a history to doing to other people, Senator Edwards, Senator Menendez, And they're going to destroy our freedom and destroy our democracy.
And it really is, if you look at it carefully, I believe treasonous.
Because what they're doing is they're stealing from the people our right to choose our leaders in elections that are free and fair.
And doing something like this that dramatically prejudices the electorate against a particular candidate.
Not to mention the fact that this is third world politics and the kind of stuff they do in the former Soviet Union and probably today's Russia.
It's really outrageous.
And I think whether you're a Democrat or Republican, you've got to stand up to this and not be for it.
The problem is we live in a hyper-partisan age, and my party, the Democrats, are gleeful over this weaponization.
And so many of these guys, like Nadler, who I was with in Congress back in the 1990s, some of the very arguments that he made against what was being done to Bill Clinton back then, and there were some real serious questions about Clinton's behavior, He's now flipping and taking a position just the opposite of the sorts of things he was saying back in the 1990s, because Jerry Nadler, with all due respect to him, is just a hyper-partisan political hack.
Do you think, Rod, I mean, when I think of the playbook that is being applied in all these cases, it seems to have a kind of resemblance.
And let's look at your case for a moment.
You have an open Senate seat.
You were accused of, like, somehow trading for that Senate seat.
Now, it's normal when a political position opens up for politicians to discuss, well, who are the candidates?
And basically, it's also normal in politics to talk about favors.
You do something for me, I do something for you.
This is not exactly new in American politics.
I think what you're saying is they took something that was relatively routine behavior in politics and figured out a way to criminalize it.
Isn't that what happened in your case in a nutshell?
Absolutely. And the great irony is that the conversations that dealt with discussing a political deal about the Senate seat were initiated by then President-elect Obama.
He started the whole thing on election night, Grant Park in Chicago.
Before he gave that big speech that he gave in front of hundreds of thousands of people, it was a magical night.
I was backstage with all the leading political figures in Illinois and in Chicago, and national figures as well.
And I was approached by a labor boss who came up to me and said, Barack, call me last night.
He would like Valerie Jarrett to be the senator.
That was the candidate that he apparently wanted.
Wants me to come and see you and talk to you and see what you want.
And then we began those discussions.
My infamous effing golden quote was the next day.
After I went out running seven and a half miles, I'm laying on the floor talking to one of my advisors.
And I said, you know, so-and-so suggested that we just please Obama.
And I said, well, this is Zephan Gold.
I'm not giving it up for nothing, meaning a political deal.
And by the way, most people don't know this, but the appellate court eventually reversed those charges.
They said it was routine political log rolling.
I'd been in prison for four and a half years.
The damage was done.
And to this day, I'm still known for having done that, which I never did.
It was never a crime to begin with.
It was a big lie that they criminalized, and as a result, they hijacked a governor twice elected by the people.
I firmly believe unlawfully, unconstitutionally, and they stole me from the people.
And the people who did this, these prosecutors, surely that must be a crime when you steal a governor from the people who elected them.
And it surely must be a crime when you try to do this to a president.
Again, for things that are not crimes.
Let's take a pause when we come back more with former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.
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Feel the difference. I'm back with Rod Blagojevich, the former governor of Illinois.
We're talking about political targeting.
In your case, Rod, the targeting was coming, well, there was a prosecutor involved, I think Fitzgerald, if I'm not mistaken, if I remember his name.
But wasn't this ultimately a targeting by Obama in that Obama seems to have felt, this is my person, I want to get this guy in there.
The governor is standing in my way.
What if we can get him on something?
Do you believe that Obama himself was behind your targeting?
And I ask that because of a larger question.
We now see, for example, Durham testifying just yesterday that, hey, you know, there We're good to go.
And they decided, well, that's okay.
Let's go right on ahead.
You know, Dinesh, that's a good question.
In the wake of having seen what they've been doing to President Trump since the moment he became president and what you just referenced and what they're doing to him today, as I think back on what happened to me, is it possible that your interpretation that Obama may have had more of a hand in this than I ever imagined?
I believe it is potentially possible.
I mean, the fact of the matter is the FBI, they taped all of my telephone calls.
And yet to this day, 98% of those tapes are being suppressed, under seal.
I wasn't even allowed to use them in court to defend myself.
The night before I was arrested, I had made a decision on who my choice for the Senate was.
This woman named Lisa Madigan, if I could get a political deal that would help the people of Illinois, and Obama was going to be, Rahm Emanuel, Obama's chief of staff, was going to be the go-between.
They had arrested me the next morning at 6 o'clock, I believe, to stop that from happening.
And then it took four months to, you know, basically twist arms and get the indictment that they brought with a grand jury.
But they arrested me on a criminal complaint, which never happens, just to stop me, I believe, from making that Senate pick.
So is it possible that Obama and his people were aware, I mean, they were aware because we were talking to Rahm Emanuel, that I was about to make this deal and didn't like it?
You know, it's speculation. I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it.
To this day, I'm still trying to figure out exactly who was behind it, why they did it.
But I do believe that that prosecutor, Fitzgerald, who incidentally is very close to James Comey, Mueller, they're all part of the same team that brought the fake Russian collusion allegations against Trump.
I believe they're all part of a cabal within the Department of Justice and the people surrounding the Department of Justice.
And these are the people that are the cancer in our political system.
They're the ones who I think have to be, I know must be held to account for what they're doing and made an example of.
But for that to happen, we need a president willing to take them on.
It's among the reasons why I would urge all of your listeners to get behind President Trump and elect him so we can literally drain the swamp at the DOJ. Isn't this also a failure rod of the judges?
And I say that because when the tools of the law are being manipulated, so for example, there are tools like plea bargaining, and they have a legitimate purpose.
But when they're used to bludgeon people who are not guilty into taking a guilty plea because they're facing, you know, umpteen years of potential prison, then the whole system is out of whack.
But isn't it the job of the judge to then sort of call foul on it?
It looks like something very bad has happened in our judiciary.
The judges, whether it's the FISA judges doing rubber snaps, are just going along with the process.
It's a very astute observation, and you're absolutely right.
I was mistaken.
I thought that if I fought back like I did, asserting my innocence, which I know is true, meeting my obligation as the governor of Illinois to protect the Constitution and the rule of law, sworn duty on the Holy Bible that I took, That I had to fight back.
I had no choice but to fight back because I knew what they were doing was so corrupt.
But I did a fair trial.
And when they failed to convict me at a first trial, because they didn't, they then tried me a second time and they used unlawful standards.
They actually used literally a standard the Supreme Court said was not the law to get convictions for things that were legal.
And I was... How can I say this?
Not only disillusion, but I was thunderstruck that the judge went along with everything the prosecutors were doing and was essentially a co-conspirator with the prosecutors.
And then the appellate court that I thought would be fair and reasonable basically rubber stamped a lot of what was being done there because there's a buddy system.
That the prosecutors and the judges and the appellate judges in some respects are all part of the same team and they protect themselves.
I believe the reason I could never get justice in that court, even though they did reverse the sale of the Senate seat, they still upheld three fundraising requests that were perfectly legal and kept me in prison.
And if it wasn't for Trump, I'd have been there still until May of 2024.
Would have been a 12 and a half year time that I would have spent in prison.
Instead, it was eight years. Neither one was good.
But I had total street cred on this subject because of what I've gone through and what I've seen.
And your point about the judges is profound.
And the idea that the American people just trust the court system is naive.
And I was one of those people who did it.
All you got to do is go back to 1857 and see the top judge in America, Justice Tawny.
And he ruled in the Dred Scott case and said that no black American can be a citizen of the United States and have the opportunity to go into a court.
So the fact that we trust judges, I think history should show us that judges aren't always right and they're frequently wrong.
And in some cases, many cases, all too many cases, they're part of that system in that courthouse working with the prosecutors to move along the prosecutor's agenda rather than being the ones who are supposed to be the arbiters of justice.
I mean, equally disturbing to me is the fact that, you know, here you have in the case of Biden and the Biden family what appears to be genuine corruption.
And by that, I mean large amounts of money from foreign entities flowing into the family's bank accounts.
And this is documentable.
So, you know, you were accused of selling a Senate seat, but no money ended up in your pocket.
Trump is accused of holding onto these classified documents.
I don't see a shred of evidence that any foreign entity or foreign spy got access to the Mar-a-Lago closet.
And yet, in Biden's case, you seem to have at least smoke, if not fire.
Are you worried that this thing is going to be covered up, or do you think it's all going to come to light?
No, my experience tells me it's going to be covered up.
They're still covering up what they did to me.
98% of those FBI tapes, they still won't release them.
It'll show a very different story.
It'll show the prosecutors to be the liars that they are.
No, I'm very fearful about what's going to happen.
And I don't trust that President Trump will get a fair trial.
Here's what they're going to do, the federal prosecutors are going to do.
They're going to do with the documents from what they did to me with the tapes.
They're going to conjure up some excuse where they don't have to show those documents.
What they'll do in the Trump case is they'll just proclaim all of this stuff classified.
They'll over-classify stuff.
And because of that, they'll argue national security, and they'll say that we don't have to show these documents, even in a courtroom, to convict the accused.
Which is fundamentally completely against what the rules of evidence are supposed to be in a courtroom and the rights of an accused to defend themselves.
I'm predicting this is what they're going to do, those classified documents.
And I've had some experience as a former congressman.
I sat on the House Armed Services Committee before we went to war with Iraq.
I voted for that war because we were lied to, that there were weapons of mass destruction there in Iraq.
And I'm asking myself, could they possibly come in here and lie like this?
I said they couldn't.
They were patriots. They're Americans.
These are the best and the brightest. Now we know that they did a lot.
So I've learned a lot of hard lessons in the intervening years.
And I'm very fearful that President Trump, what he's facing when he goes to court, and hopefully he'll get that fair trial that we hope he gets, but I'm very fearful these prosecutors are going to use that over-classification excuse to not even show the evidence.
And in probably many of those cases, those very documents that are claimed are classified, well, probably nothing.
Because they lie, they cheat, And they're corrupt.
Very bad stuff.
Rod Blagojevich, thank you so much for joining me.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Dinesh.
Thank you for the work that you're doing because our country is at a crossroads and freedom is at stake.
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And, wow, that was quite an interview with Blagojevich, and you really like this guy, and I do too.
Well, you know, I followed his case.
Quite closely when it happened back in the horrible Obama days.
And I was so convinced that Obama had something to do with it and that it was Obama that threw him under the bus, as he did many people, you included, but that I felt like Like they were giving him preferential treatment and he was supposed to testify or they were supposed to at least show evidence of Obama being kind of in on it and they've scrubbed all that.
And so I was like, you know, if I had been Blago, I called him Blago, I would have been so angry at Obama.
And I'm not sure that he ever did come to that, but I think now he's starting to see the light.
Right. Because he didn't full blame him, but kind of.
Well, all these things require motive.
And so it's not as a prosecutor is just going to be unleashed, just going to go ahead and get you.
Somebody put him up to it.
Same with my case. It didn't just start off where the FBI decides, okay, well, this guy exceeded the campaign.
Someone said, let's go look at this guy.
Let's look at his bank accounts.
Let's do eavesdrop on him.
Let's find out something that he did.
So that person, I believe in my case, was Eric Holder, and he put up the Stooge Brerara to it.
And so this is how this works.
There has to be someone that initiates the hit.
Oh, yeah. And I think Blago in that sense is recognized.
Well, Blago represents a certain...
in the Democratic Party that we used to call the blue dog or the old style Democrats.
Yellow dog, blue dog.
Yeah, exactly.
There were a number of people like this.
And in the Reagan years, you could count on some of those Democrats to vote with Reagan on tax cuts and even with some of the anti-communist policies.
It looks like that strain of the Democratic Party is gone.
Do you think the Democrats have changed in the sense of becoming more radicalized?
Or do you think that they were always shady?
Well, you know, I told you that I am not sure that the Democrats have ever actually been a good party.
I think they've been a corrupt party.
I think that, in fact, I think that That Blagojevich was part of the corruption, but maybe perhaps not corrupt himself.
In other words, because he was so entrenched in that party, he didn't see it.
He's a good guy, and I do believe he's a really good guy.
I mean, I really do. And so there may be some good guys in the Democrat Party, But the party itself has always been about corruption.
As you know, as you pointed it out in Hillary's America, I mean, it was the party of slavery.
It was the party of anti-civil rights.
They themselves did not want civil rights.
And then this whole notion that we switch parties, of course, you've debunked.
So... Corruption is very old and it runs deep.
It began with Andrew Jackson.
It continued with Martin Van Buren.
Of course, it would be all the Democratic presidents leading up to the Civil War.
Then we fast forward to Woodrow Wilson, who was, I don't know if he was corrupt, but he certainly was tyrannical.
FDR was corrupt and tyrannical.
And look, there are some counterexamples, as you say.
LBJ. LBJ was thoroughly corrupt.
Now, people will say, well, what about Truman?
What about JFK? What about Carter?
But look, I mean, first of all, JFK was no model of human behavior.
This guy was himself, you know, in a sense.
He was a twisted guy and a tortured man in many respects, although some of his policies were decent.
Well, they were, you know, as I said, they were anti-communist.
JFK was anti-communist.
But it doesn't mean that he was not corrupt.
Yeah, I mean, he was in a way, JFK and Clinton were cut from the same mold.
They were corrupt. You know, they were lecturers.
They were basically philanderers.
But they were also people who were willing to cut corners and go after their opponents.
They were unscrupulous.
I mean, there was an amorality driving people like that.
Now, Jimmy Carter was probably not corrupt in a personal sense.
Yeah, but what I... But he was ideologically corrupt.
Ideologically corrupt. And as I told you, that I didn't really understand his corruption until he became good buddies with my...
I mean, the...
A horrific person, Hugo Chavez.
He absolutely adored Hugo Chavez.
Now, if you adore Hugo Chavez, you've got a serious problem.
Kind of like saying if you admire the gangster, there's got to be something in you that's okay with gangsterism.
And I think you're thinking specifically here about the fact that the Carter Center was very well aware of fraud in the Venezuelan election.
Yes. But they okayed the election because they wanted Chavez to get through.
So again, it was not a case where they were fooled.
It's a case where they knew better.
Yeah. And by the same token, you know, the Dems have always been the evil party, but I think we have always kind of been the stupid party.
Yeah, Republicans have a hard time grasping the magnitude of what they're up against.
They always want to be, oh, we want to be better than the other guy.
We want to show them by example.
This way they're going to learn, no, this is, you know, the cop doesn't apprehend the criminal by showing an example of law-abidingness.
Watch me as I cross the street just when the light turns green or when the flashing light turns and allows me to walk.
That's not what's going to motivate the criminal.
What motivates the criminal is the presence of the truncheon and the revolver at the policeman's side.
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It's time. The Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is in the United States.
I sort of chuckled this morning.
I don't know if you saw this, honey. You probably didn't.
But Modi and Biden are standing side by side, right?
And they're supposed to play.
Well, when there's a foreign visitor, they first play the Indian National Anthem.
And then, of course, the U.S. National Anthem.
And Biden is so dumb that when they start playing the Indian National Anthem, he puts his arm up to his side.
Oh, yes, yes. Then, as time goes on, the dummy slowly realizes it's not that you are.
And so what does he do?
Instead of just dropping his hand, which would be the sensible thing to do, he slowly slides it down as if people are not going to notice.
So, but here's an article that you have from CNN, an analysis of the India-US relationship claiming that Modi is now a newfound friend of the Biden administration.
Now, what I make of that is just this, that the United States actually needs friends in the Far East, because you've got the growing power of China.
So it actually, it's logical for the United States to be Good friends with Japan, good friends with South Korea, good friends with India, good friends with what you could call the countervailing forces in the region.
So there's a logic to this.
But of course, the banishing of Modi, the anathemizing of Modi, the making of Modi into a bad guy was done by Obama.
By Obama. Not only that, but in this article, they make it sound as though this is kind of a Biden thing, right?
And we know, because of talking to Trump, that he actually liked Modi.
Trump is actually very responsible for the closeness of the India-US relationship.
Not only did Trump and Modi get along, get along not in the sense that they're the same person, but But get along in the sense that they can do business with each other.
They're both strong leaders, but they're leaders who understand that you can make deals.
Deals based upon common values, deals based upon common interests.
But the way that this article makes it sound is that Embraced by the United States, meaning newly embraced by the United States, meaning by Biden.
And yes, we talked about the fact that he was actually banned from coming to the United States, I believe, during Obama.
Let's talk about why, because I don't think most people realize, why would Obama detest a guy like Modi?
Well, it wasn't because Modi was anti-Christian, right?
Let's make that very clear.
I believe it was because Modi was anti-Muslim.
So the key to Modi is that Modi's whole career is based upon the idea that India is a Hindu country.
Now, when India was first set up, became independent from the British in 1947, the Indian leaders at that time said India is a secular country with equal rights for Christians, for Muslims, for Hindus.
But what's happened is I think particularly in response to Muslim militancy, The Muslim militancy of the bin Laden era, but also of ISIS, a kind of increasing restlessness of the Muslim population in India.
Modi has been rallying the Hindus to say, well, listen, we're the majority.
We Hindus, it's our country.
In fact... This is the only country that the Hindus have.
So if you're a Christian, you can go to a lot of other Christian countries or a lot of other Muslim countries, but there's one Hindu country.
So this is Modi. And I think for Obama, that message was seen as anti-Muslim.
So Obama hated Modi.
Right. That's why.
And that's where Modi, so when it says how Modi went from being banned, they don't say he was banned by Obama.
By Obama. Yeah, so what Biden is trying to do now is pull back and pull back because he realizes he needs Modi because Modi is a necessary ally with the rising power of China.
Now, Modi himself is an interesting character.
A lot of the Christians in India don't like Modi because Modi's policies are essentially Hinduism first.
And so, Hinduism first means, even though it's really targeted or directed against the Muslims, anybody who's not Hindu is also affected by those policies.
And so, for example, there are laws in certain parts of India that Modi has been pushing and promoting that restrict Christians from evangelizing.
You can't go into certain tribal neighborhoods and proclaim Jesus Christ.
Why? Because that's illegal, according to the Indian laws supported by Modi.
Yeah. And I don't really know how this is, like, you know, again, I think he's very pro-Putin, Modi is, right?
And so I think that that is a little bit of a kind of a careful walk there because of that.
Yeah, but even there, I think, you know, look, India does not have oil.
This is the key. India and China are rapidly growing powers, and they both need a lot of energy.
And the Russians have a lot of oil to sell.
So the Indians are like, why are we going to cut off our access?
So the Indians...
They're really just buying oil from the Russians and they refuse to stop doing it.
Now, the Europeans have stopped doing it, but there are European countries like Norway and so on that have a lot of oil.
Right, right. So, anyway, pretty interesting.
And again, it kind of goes to show you how the media likes to hide things that...
Well, the other thing that they don't like about Modi is that he's a nationalist.
Right. But he's a nationalist in the same way that, say, Netanyahu was a nationalist for Israel.
And, of course, Mandela was a nationalist for South Africa.
And Trump was a nationalist for America.
Right. Exactly. So this idea that we hear now that nationalism is somehow, you know, a bad idea or somehow akin to fascism is complete nonsense.
In fact, if you want to know what fascism is, it is the marriage of nationalism to socialism.
And that's the part that the media always wants to hide, to downplay.
They leave it out. They act as if national socialism is nationalism without the social.
They just call themselves socialists.
They weren't really socialists.
Well, why don't they just call themselves nationalists?
Maybe they weren't really nationalists either.
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There's this interesting story that has generated a lot of, I don't know if, I think morbid curiosity is probably the right phrase, and that is the submersible that was a tourist vehicle to go see the Titanic with a couple of billionaires on it, five people in total, and the founder of the company called Oceangate.
And the submersible has gone missing and time may already have run out, although you just saw an article by the co-founder of Ocean Gate saying that there is still time.
Yeah, he says that you need to remain hopeful because he says that he firmly believes that the time window available for their rescue is longer than what most people think.
He continued as the clock ticked Toward the end of the availability of air supply.
There are a lot of kind of fascinating angles of this.
One angle interesting to me is that you have the CEO in an interview, this goes back now some time, I think the interview was with one of the TV networks, and he was talking about how he's a cheapskate and he doesn't like to, what he likes to do is improvise.
In fact, he says that the remote control that he uses to manipulate this submersible, he bought for like, I don't remember the amount, but he bought it like a GameStopper for like maybe a hundred bucks.
He was also talking about the fact that even though he's a white male, he doesn't want a company run by white males.
He wants diversity.
Yeah. So think about it.
We sometimes see this corporate slogan, we put diversity first.
I hope that this tragedy is not the result of, we put diversity first.
Yeah. No, I think this tragedy is, well, first of all, I think it's an avoidable tragedy.
I think that he hadn't apparently tested this that deep.
And with five people on board.
Yeah, and Juliana, my daughter, said, Mom, do you realize that this thing doesn't have any windows?
So they go all the way down there to see the Titanic, but they're not really seeing it with their own eyes.
They're looking at a screen of a drone that is actually shooting the image of the Titanic.
Oh, so they weren't planning to get out of the vehicle, but you can't.
They can't do that, but they can't even see it from the vehicle.
So I was like, what is the point in going all the way down there in something that you can't even see out of?
I mean, it's worth making the point.
It's a little bit of a blunt observation, but the point is this, and that is that it's hard to feel all that sorry for people who are undertaking these kinds of highly risky, voluntary, sort of not...
It's kind of like someone who undergoes a massive plastic surgery over all of my body, right?
I want to look different.
I want to be a different size, a different weight, a different height.
All they have to do is PhD.
That's all you have to do.
You don't have to go in any night. Do PhD weight loss instead.
Yeah, that's right. A lot more effective and less painful.
Well, the point being, then it goes wrong.
Oh, it's tragically wrong.
The person's face is maimed.
Well, yeah, but you didn't have to do this.
You weren't in an accident.
going into the ocean and being eaten by a shark, as I've always told you, that's one of the most avoidable deaths that there are, because you don't have to go swimming in the ocean at dusk when sharks are feeding.
You don't have to do that.
Now there's a distinction to be made here between people who take risk in a kind of heroic effort to gain new knowledge.
So let's say, for example, that there's a, well, let's take, for example, the Apollo 11, which went to the moon.
That's a risk, but it's a risk ultimately where you're exploring a new frontier.
You're trying to discover something new.
Let's just say the first manned mission to Mars.
To me, that kind of risk, the challenge or disaster.
Remember that? Things do go wrong.
But the people on the Challenger were heroes because, listen, they were willing to undertake something on, you can say, on behalf of humanity to be someplace where man has never been and learn something that man doesn't know.
That's a lot different than a bunch of guys who have a little too much money to spend, right?
And I also think, think about the guy who takes his son, right?
You know, that's a 22-year-old.
I think he was 19.
Was he 19? I think he was only 19.
Yeah. Just irresponsible.
I mean, really. I don't have any other word for it.
I mean, really. I just don't.
Well, you saw the interview with the guy who didn't go.
Oh, yeah. The guy who did not go and said that he didn't go because he felt like they were cutting too many corners.
Yeah. And he was very uncomfortable.
He had already put in $10,000 deposit.
And he was like, guys, I think I want my money back.
Well, this is what he goes.
He was with another friend and maybe with the founder of Ocean Gate.
I don't really know. And they were all drinking and they all thought it was hilarious to go down to the bottom of the ocean.
They're like, okay, listen, it's going to cost $100,000.
This was 2016.
Yeah, because now it's $250,000.
$250,000. Imagine paying $250,000 for a one-day experience in which you go down in a submersible.
You check out the Titanic, as you say, on a screen.
Which, my point is, why couldn't they just stay on the boat and do the same thing?
Send a drone down? Send a drone.
They've done that before.
I mean, that's how we've seen, we've been able to see the Titanic all of us have because of that drone that goes all the way down there.
Because, you know, quite frankly, that's a little bit too deep to be venturing into.
Well, you know, there are people who want to live dangerously.
Now, apparently, one of the guys on the boat is a relative of the Astor family.
I think the husband of...
It's one of the guys' wife...
Is related to the couple that went down together holding hands.
And that was the inspiration behind the Titanic love story.
Think of the bitter irony of it.
It's kind of like you discover that your ancestor fell off the edge of the Grand Canyon.
So you decide, I'm going to go and I'm going to lean exactly where this person leaned over.
Whoops! Down you go.
I'm not trying to make light of it.
What I'm trying to say is that, think of it, the relative now is ending up exactly where the asters did at the bottom of the ocean.
Yeah, exactly. But, you know, again, it's really sad.
I feel sorry for the families.
For sure. I intend to conclude today my discussion of the uniqueness of Christianity, the penultimate chapter of my book, What's So Great About Christianity?
And then tomorrow I'm going to do a special episode that focuses on the last chapter, which is what Christianity can do for you.
It's called A Foretaste of Eternity, How Christianity Can Change Your Life.
So a special episode on that tomorrow.
C.S. Lewis wrote, Christ offers us something for nothing.
He even offers us everything for nothing.
In a sense, the whole Christian life consists in accepting that very remarkable offer.
So the deal is pretty simple.
You don't have to do anything to be a Christian or to become a Christian.
You just have to say yes.
You just have to accept the free gift of salvation and accept it On the basis of faith.
Now, why would somebody say no to this?
Why would someone say no to eternal life on the condition that you do?
Well, not a whole lot, if anything at all, that you essentially receive with gratitude and humility the gift of salvation that God is offering you.
Well, it turns out that humans are rebellious, they are obstinate, they are prideful, a very important word in the Bible.
They prefer what Milton Satan called the easy...
They prefer hard liberty, as Satan calls it, to quote, the easy yoke of servile pomp.
So, as Satan sees it, I don't want to be in this sort of subordinate position to God.
And... The idea is I'd rather choose my own way.
I'd rather choose my own life.
So this is a hubristic resistance that many people feel to God's authority.
And this helps us to understand that a lot of unbelief, skepticism, atheism has a psychology behind it.
It's not based upon an inability to believe.
I don't see the evidence.
It's unwillingness, a lack of desire.
I don't want to believe.
The atheist sort of wants to shut himself off from God.
And this gives us an insight into the nature of heaven.
Sometimes people think God is flinging people into hell.
The gates of heaven are really closed.
No. The gates of heaven aren't closed.
You can just walk right through them.
And heaven is God's domain where God is eternally present.
Hell is where God is not.
So God doesn't really reject the atheist.
The atheist rejects God.
God doesn't fling the atheist into hell.
The atheist says, listen, I don't want to be where God is.
And God reluctantly goes, well, okay.
So the point I'm trying to make is that the gates of hell are locked from the inside.
Now, the Bible says that salvation is the gift of God.
And some people think that...
This means that God is giving us, offering us salvation.
But I think the Bible isn't saying that salvation is the gift from God.
It is the gift of God, meaning God Himself is the gift.
And the acceptance of this gift gives you eternal life, gives you what people call the born-again experience.
Now, some people don't like the term born-again.
To them, it suggests this whole idea of a kind of a second sailing, as Plato once called it, is a little weird.
And the idea that we're sinners who can't solve our own problems, we have to lean on God, this is felt by some people to be sort of degrading.
Aristotle, I think, would have found it that way.
Aristotle says it's kind of incomprehensible that a degenerate person can somehow have his life transformed.
But Christianity says not only that this can happen, but it actually must happen to each and every one of us if we are to be with God.
The evangelist D. James Kennedy says somewhere that Christ specifies the requirement of being born again, not to the woman at the well, not to the woman taken in adultery, but rather to Nicodemus, who's not a thief, he's not a prostitute, he's a learned and righteous man.
And Kennedy's point is that even righteousness is not enough.
Even Nicodemus needs salvation.
And if we think through the Bible, ask yourself, who do we know from the Bible has made it to heaven?
Who can we be absolutely sure is up there?
Well, it turns out there's only one person we can be positive is now sitting next to Christ.
And who is that? Well, it's the penitent thief who was hanging on the cross by Jesus' side.
He says, Lord, help me, for I am a sinner.
And Jesus replies...
This day you will be with me in paradise.
So this is, I think, a big encouragement for us because once we have confronted our pride, we recognize that we don't have anything to do.
We don't have to do anything to earn our heavenly reward.
In fact, there is nothing we can do to earn it.
What is denied to us by effort is supplied to us by grace.
So when we look around us and we see the decay of our life, when every earthly hope of redemption has failed us, when those whom we love cannot help us, when we have tried everything and there's nothing else to try, when we've tossed our last log on the fire and all the embers have flickered out, it is at this point that God's hand reaches out to us steady and sure, and all we have to do is take it.
This is the uniqueness of the Christian message.
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