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May 16, 2023 - Dinesh D'Souza
53:25
VINDICATION Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep580
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This episode is brought to you by my friend Rebecca Walzer, a financial expert who can help you protect your wealth. Book your free call with her team by going to friendofdinesh.com. That's friendofdinesh.com. Coming up, I'll review the findings of the Durham report, arguing it uncovers an election interference scheme involving Hillary, Obama,
And the FBI. America needs this voice.
The times are crazy, and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
The final report of Special Prosecutor John Durham is out, and its findings couldn't be more stark, couldn't be more clear.
It is that the U.S. intelligence agencies had absolutely no basis for opening up an investigation into the Trump campaign and later into the Trump presidency on the basis that Trump was somehow a Russian asset, that Trump was colluding with Putin or with Russia, that the Russians were working through Trump to influence the outcome of an election, in other words, to give Trump the election.
All of this was fake.
This was a fake operation that began, as we now know, in the Hillary campaign.
The Hillary campaign planted the idea of Russia collusion.
And by the way, the Obama administration was in on it.
Because let's remember... Andrew McCabe, Deputy Director of the FBI. Peter Strzok, who was the Deputy Assistant Director for Counterintelligence.
Lisa Page. They're not going to be able to do all this stuff on their own.
Durham talks about a briefing that former CIA Director, well, then CIA Director John Brennan had.
He briefed, and this is in August of 2016, he briefed Obama.
He briefed Vice President Biden.
He briefed the Attorney General, Loretta Lynch, FBI Director Comey, and he told them that there was a story coming out of the Hillary Clinton campaign that was trying to implicate Trump in Russia collusion.
So the important point here is not only did the Hillary campaign cook it up, But Brennan knew that this was coming from the Hillary campaign.
Brennan told Obama and Biden and these top officials in the Biden administration, this is coming from Hillary.
They all knew. They were all aware that this was ultimately a framing, an effort to frame Trump.
And of course, massive election interference.
We now see, by the way, when you combine this with the...
More recent information about the 51 intelligence officials signing what they know to be fake.
In other words, they're getting a call from the Biden campaign.
Hey, we want to say that this Hunter Biden laptop, which reveals all this Biden family corruption, we want to say it's Russian disinformation.
And then Mike Morrell goes, okay, well, I'm willing to run with that.
And I'm willing to call other people, by the way, including Brennan and others, and get them to sign.
And all of them knew. None of them had any information that this was a Russian disinformation, but they wanted Biden to win the election.
So what we have here is we have the intelligence agencies at the highest level interfering and trying to shape the outcome of now two presidential elections.
I mean, I don't even, it's very hard to grasp the magnitude of all this.
Hillary Clinton came within inches of stealing the presidency in 2016.
She almost got away with it.
And once she didn't get away with it, she tried to continue to put the blame on Trump and delegitimize his presidency.
Let's remember this went on for three years.
So we have election interference in 2016.
This was, of course, what Durham is talking about, investigating Trump based on Clinton campaign lies.
And then, of course, we have election interference in 2020 by the same intelligence community working hand-in-hand, this time not with the Clinton campaign, but with the Biden campaign.
So this is very serious stuff.
And Durham's report has a kind of Strange quality.
At one point, Durham says in the report that it is a crime to knowingly provide false information to the government.
That's exactly what Hillary did and Hillary's campaign did in 2016.
So Hillary should be indicted.
Hillary should be arrested, charged.
But there's no indication that Durham is doing this or even recommending it.
Rather, he's merely putting the facts out.
And he's giving the idea that this was sort of just the FBI and the intelligence agencies regrettably falling short of their standards.
And I find this to be woefully inadequate.
This is a case where Durham is not following through on the implications of what he himself knows and what he himself puts in the report.
Here's what happened. Here's who did it.
This is, again, not corruption at the mid-level, but at the highest levels of government.
This is not only highly unethical, it's illegal.
It's unconstitutional.
It is election interference.
And yet, what? You're now going to express the hope that the FBI fixes itself?
First of all, why is it going to fix itself?
How is it going to fix itself?
What mechanisms are there to rectify the situation?
Oh, well, the leaders will take note.
No, the leaders are...
The people who have been doing this all along, including the leadership of the FBI, now.
So we are dealing with massive corruption at a high level of government.
Corruption that rivals, if not exceeds, the corruption of other countries.
We often think this stuff happens abroad.
Banana Republic stuff.
Third World stuff. What's happened in the United States is just as bad, if not worse.
Here is...
Here is Durham again.
And the point here is that none of this really stops if it isn't stopped.
Now, I know that the Republican GOP has already asked Durham to come and testify, so they are going to try to put more exposure, more sunlight, more clarity, more focus, more public recognition of what has really happened in this country.
But I think that the bad guys are saying, if we almost got away with it in 2016 and had no accountability— And then we did get away with it in 2020 and there's no sign of having accountability there either.
Why not try it in 2024?
After all, if you have a scam, it's kind of like I've got a racket.
It's working really well.
Even if it comes out, nothing seems to be done about it and therefore the racket continues because after all, we stand to benefit from it and the other side seems powerless to stop it.
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Guys, I'm really happy to welcome back to the podcast our friend Simona Mangiante Papadopoulos.
She's an attorney. She's an entrepreneur.
Her website is agape, A-G-A-P-E, by simona.com, or you can follow her on Twitter, at simona.com.
M-A-N-G-I-A-N-T-E. Simona, welcome back.
Hey, I'd love to begin by asking you about the Durham Report.
You and George Papadopoulos are in the Durham Report.
Do you see the Durham report as a vindication?
What's your take on this report that was a long time coming and doesn't seem at this point to be pointing to any prosecutions, but nevertheless does expose, I think, a very big scandal?
Hi, Dinesh. Thanks for having me in first place.
It's always a pleasure to be on your show.
As you know, we were acting parts of this Russia hoax, and first and foremost, my husband, as, of course, a Trump advisor targeted by this Fabrication of crimes rather than prosecution of crimes by the FBI. And we see now these reports coming up with discrediting completely the work carried out by Mueller.
We know by now that what they call the conspiracy theories are actually facts.
This collusion scheme was nothing but a delusion As many have been defining this attempt to prove an interference between Russia and the Trump campaign, this was a completely hoax.
But as regards to the so-called spy gate, I'm pretty much amazed not to read in the Durham report the name of the key player, the one who started it all.
He happens to be the same person who in many ways got me involved as a witness in the Mueller investigation.
And his name is Joseph Mipsud, the infamous professor that approached George in London to set him up with false information.
So we know by now that many players have been absolutely neglected by this report.
I was expecting actually to find out much more content and Most importantly, to see people charged.
I believe, though, this is only the beginning of what we're going to expect in the future.
I believe that these people are not ignored.
I think there are more information coming up leading to that.
We know that Uram has been visiting Italy twice.
He did visit Italy twice to acquire information about this professor and the I even spoke recently with an Italian journalist which was inquiring exactly about the reason why, despite his visits to Rome, we don't have absolutely any reference to the key player of the entire Russia collusion, delusion, which is Joseph Mipsud.
And I repeat, I was testified under oaths to Congress, Senate and to the FBI about this professor at the times in which the prosecutors were trying to portray me as an asset of the Russian government.
So we know at which extent the fabrication of crimes goes.
They define a narrative and then they try to build up this narrative Regardless of any evidence.
And I leave that on my skin.
You have seen me there out at the Senate, the Congress, certifying about a subject that now is not even acknowledged in the Durham report, which is odd.
Odd, but as I said, from a side, the narrative has been completely debunked.
So we know now that Donald Trump was never deserving of having an investigation open and being arrested all over his presidency.
It is absolutely a protective investigation.
Many people have been subpoenaed based on a groundless investigation as well.
So we have to understand that there is also this aspect that is outrageous when we use a fake investigation to Getting to people, private documents, communications, and just basically trying to fish for any sort of a crime.
You know that during the infamous time of the Russia delusion, we have been liars.
You know, everybody's been charged for crimes that were completely unrelated with the Russian delusion and their lies were immaterial to the investigation.
So there is absolutely a great joy to seeing Durham It's finally putting an end to this.
But on the other hand, I think it's a matter of accountability.
People are looking for charges, criminal charges.
Many people have been unfairly charged and even arrested, while we see now an acknowledgement that all of that was fake, but still we don't see anybody hold accountable.
Though I believe there is more to come.
Let's take a pause. When we come back, I'm going to ask Simona Mangiante about some new harassment and intimidation of her by the Biden administration.
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I'm back with Simona Mangiante Papadopoulos.
Her website, Agape by Simona.com.
You can follow her on Twitter, at Simona Mangiante.
Simona, you were talking about the Durham report and you're making the point that the Durham report does kind of cover up certain things or at least doesn't bring them to the forefront, such as the guy Joseph Mifsud, who planted on George the idea that the Russians are spying, expecting him to take it back to the Trump campaign so that they could then build a case. So it was a complete frame up is the point I think you're making. And your point, I think at the end was also
very important, which is that if we don't stop these people, they will never stop.
So if there's no accountability, if these agencies aren't held to account, they'll keep going.
Now, as an indication or proof of that, recently you received a letter from the Biden administration.
Talk about who sent you the letter and what the letter was about.
Well, Dinesh, I received this letter from FARA units of the DOJ, and the letter was about inquiring my potential registration under the Foreign Agency Act as a result of my political run in my country, Italy. Alright, so let's explain what we're talking about.
So, FARA, what is that?
The Federal Agency Registration, something like that?
Basically, it's the agency that oversees the registration of people acting as foreign agents.
Now, you, Simona, are not a foreign agent.
You don't represent the Italian government, but you are an Italian citizen, and you ran for a, as I understand it, local office in Italy in the recent election, and that was the provocation for sending the letter.
I also note, by the way, that Italy is an ally of the United States, so we're not talking about a foreign government.
Talk about what the letter said earlier.
I was going to call it a nasty letter, but it's probably more accurate to call it an intimidating letter, a threatening letter, a kind of a chilling letter.
Any normal person would be like, what is this?
What did the letter actually say?
Basically, this letter was suggesting that I have some sort of obligation to register under a foreign agency act to be supervised by the American government, specifically the unit of the American government, as a foreign agent acting on behalf of the Italian government.
Based on the misunderstanding, I believe, that I was running for a Foreign constituency for Italian Americans.
Now, let's take a step back.
It's very easy to access public records and clarify this information.
Everybody can Google the Italian election.
I was actually running for a seat as a senator in the region of Turin, in the north of Italy.
And my campaign was absolutely unrelated to the United States of America, so there were no obligations to inform the American government, or even less, to be supervised for my political campaign in Italy.
Furthermore, there are some very interesting aspects of this letter, which is particularly aggressive and Intimidating, though I'm not intimidated at all, actually I found it ridiculous, in which basically they said that during one of my rallies in Italy, I was mentioning one of the people in the crowd started to praise Donald Trump.
Now, the fact that I am known in my country, in the United States, as a Trump supporter, it's nothing to do with any interference.
At the most, I was interfering trying to condition an Italian opinion about what American politics is and not the other way around.
I'm saying, I'm taking as an example Donald Trump in Italy.
I'm not having an example of Giorgio Meloni in America, which I did, of course, by matter of expressing my own freedom of speech and beliefs.
Now, this is Absolutely outrageous.
It gets even worse because for absolutely no reason, there is absolutely no ground for me to register under FARA. Why?
Because first and foremost, I never received any money for my campaign.
I never campaigned in the United States.
I never lobbied in the United States.
I never communicated to Any officials of the United States about my campaign.
Nevertheless, the Biden administration is asking me to disclose all my communication with Italian officials and all members of the Italian government, which is absolutely incredible.
I mean, Simona, weren't they also trying to track your political activity in the United States?
And in fact, wasn't there—you came on my podcast several months ago.
You were just—I think I asked you about Giorgio Maloney and the Italian election.
We may have also talked about American politics.
I mean, you're a public figure.
In fact, to some degree, you were made a public figure by the sort of police agencies of the U.S. government.
But weren't they also trying to imply that your activities, including appearing on this podcast, were somehow suspect and made you a foreign agent of Italy?
Yes, exactly.
They list a number of podcasts, your podcasts, other podcasts including Joe Pegg's and other appearances on TV shows here in the United States, to make the point that I was trying to influence American politics through my opinions, while actually I was simply talking about my political run,
which I think is of interest as people were asking me what's going on in Italy, And expressing my opinion about the current Prime Minister of Italy, who happens to be a straight conservative, somebody whose example is clearly not welcome by the Biden administration, and I became again a target.
But what I found funny is that only three years ago I was under the radar of the American government for being a Russian asset, and now they upgraded me to an asset of an ally.
Simona, what's so crazy is that an Italian citizen is perfectly able to go on American TV, write articles.
You're not necessarily representing a foreign government.
If you do that, you're just a foreign citizen participating in a kind of broad debate about issues.
Where does this stand now?
Have you been able to get them to drop this nonsense, or are you still going back and forth with them?
Unfortunately, I'm still getting back and forth or forward to that.
My attorney was really clear into not only denying access to all confidential information and protecting my freedom of speech in a way such explaining that, talking about whatever activity or whatever belief I embrace has nothing to do with any foreign government.
Paying me to represent those interests abroad, then they should explain to both me and my lawyer what is the interest of Italian government in having me talking about my belief in Italian politics in Italy, because there is also this aspect.
So my attorney actually was really sharp and tough into requesting the legal grounds of this letter.
It's nothing more, nothing less than another attempt of harassment.
I believe at this point, yeah.
It just shows me, Simona, that the targeting, the harassment has not ended and the sort of police state, if you will, continues its machinations even unto the present.
Hey, Simona Mangiante, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.
I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Nash.
Always a pleasure. Thank you.
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I chuckled to see this on zerohedge.com.
Toronto anti-capitalist pay-when-you-can cafe shuts down after just one year.
Turns out that in Toronto, there's this leftist guy, and his name is Gabriel Sims Feuer.
Anyway, this guy is, from the rhetoric that I see in the article, completely rabid.
And he thought, not only am I going to rage against capitalism, I'm going to start a cafe that operates on anti-capitalist principles.
Or as he calls it, quote, an anti-capitalist, anti-colonial cafe shop and radical community space on stolen land.
Well, first of all, the land is stolen.
You shouldn't start the cafe.
You should give the land back.
Anyway, he starts this cafe, and his principle of the cafe is pay when you can.
So you don't have to pay when you receive the stuff.
And the stuff here refers to coffee, for sure, but also radical art.
Books, clothing, jewelry, and tote bags.
Yeah. Well, as it turns out, many people were like, yeah, I'll take the stuff now.
I'm not going to pay at all.
And, you know, basically a year later, this guy goes, you know, he's too stupid to even recognize why his cafe is closing down because the Marxist principle from each according to his ability to each according to his need is...
It doesn't work.
It doesn't really fit with human nature.
It doesn't really make any sense.
If you tell people that they can have stuff for free, they're not going to pay.
And they don't pay.
And instead of saying, hey, listen, you leftists, you're scoundrels, many of you can't afford to pay, but you're not paying.
No, this is what he says.
Unfortunately, the lack of generational wealth slash seed capital from ethically bankrupt sources left me unable to weather the The quiet winter season or to grow in the ways needed to be sustainable long term.
So the cafe has got to shut down.
Now, the problem with the socialists here is that their whole mentality is messed up.
They take something that is, to some degree, a legitimate principle, which is it's good to be able to help other people.
But notice that this guy is not really helping anyone.
He's not saying, listen, I'll use my resources, I will work hard, I will earn money, and then I will use that money to be generous to other people.
He's not doing that. He basically says, let's see if we can create a community based on socialist principles.
Now, it flashed my mind back, and some of you may go, well, what's the connection, Dinesh?
But you'll see the connection.
There was a prominent British socialist and feminist.
Her name was Beatrice Potter Webb.
And she was born into a wealthy family in Gloucester.
In fact, her father was Richard Potter, a businessman.
And her mom was Laurencina Hayworth, the daughter of a Liverpool merchant.
So she was born into a highly successful entrepreneurial family.
And yet, instead of trying to understand how her father made his money, how the Liverpool merchant accumulated wealth, she made this sarcastic statement.
She goes, you know, she goes, I was born into a family that habitually gave orders.
And she went on to say, every time I saw my father, he was giving orders.
And then she said, I never saw him ever take orders.
Well, dummy, the reason you never saw him take orders is that the orders he was taking was not from a boss, but from the consumer.
In other words, if you're running a retail business or any kind of business, you are taking orders.
When I make movies, I take orders.
Who I take orders from? Well, I think about the potential customer base that's going to go to the theater and watch the film.
I think about the people who are going to go to Barnes& Noble and buy my book.
And so, if I think of a wacky idea that interests me, such as a review of Game 6 of the Fisher of Spassky World Championship in chess 1972, I don't write a book on that subject because, quite frankly, hardly anyone will want to read it.
Not even the two principles involved.
Fisher, of course, is dead. Spassky is still alive, but not in good health.
So the point about entrepreneurship is you take orders from the people who are ultimately buying your product.
You have to empathetically imagine or envision what their wants and needs are and satisfy them.
So if this guy in Toronto, Gabriel Sims Fewer, paid more attention to what the customers in Toronto want, make a really good coffee shop, a really good ambiance, and people would want to pay.
And his coffee shop would probably still be in business.
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Guys, I'm really happy to welcome to the podcast Sarah Carter.
She's an award-winning investigative reporter, Fox News contributor, host of the Sarah Carter Show podcast.
By the way, you can follow her on Twitter at SarahCarterDC.
Her website, SarahACarter.com.
Sarah, wow, there's been so much going on in the news that I thought I'd start by asking you to comment on the Durham findings.
Do you find the Durham final report Exhilarating, disappointing, somewhere in between.
What's your take on what we've just learned?
I think there's two things, Dinesh.
And thank you for having me on your show.
I think your podcast is brilliant.
It's genius, just like you.
But I think I take away two things from this.
One, absolutely, Durham laid out the facts that Hillary Clinton had planned.
And basically, this is what I said on Sean Hannity's show.
The CIA and the FBI, working alongside Hillary Clinton, basically swatted a president of the United States using their training that is meant to be targeting foreign adversaries.
They then, again, turned it on the American people.
They lied about a duly elected president of our nation.
They not only targeted him, but they targeted the people that voted for him.
And in fact, the foundation of our country is fractured.
So now we have these agencies within our government that have been weaponized for political purposes, which runs contrary to our republic and what our founding fathers established our nation to be.
A two-tiered system of justice now exists.
And I think the most unfortunate thing, this is for me, right?
And this is my personal opinion.
I believe that William Barr and John Durham failed miserably.
Look, the report was fantastic.
It laid it all out, but it didn't go far enough.
How is it possible that you can target a president of the United States with an apparent operation to interfere in an election and there's no one that's going to pay the price for it?
I don't understand that.
And I can understand why the American people are so frustrated.
We are the last bastion of hope in the world, in a sense.
We are supposed to be founded on liberty and freedom and principles that make our nation responsible.
Better, a beacon of light, whatever you want to call it, for people from all over the world, which is why we see our border being flooded with people coming from every place on planet Earth, which is why our nation is built up of this beautiful tapestry of people from everywhere,
because we believe, each and every one of us, whether you are from Cuba, like my mother, and searching for a better life outside of communism, or whether you're from North Africa or Afghanistan or Pakistan or India, wherever you are from in the world, you seek a better life and you count on the United States as being a just and righteous nation.
And then when we see what just happened, it's absolutely gut-wrenching.
To some degree, I can't tell if Durham is naive in that at the end, he just calls for reform so that these things don't happen again.
If you take into account the magnitude of what happened, which is to say powerful networks of intelligence agencies conspiring together with a political campaign to almost rig the result of a presidential election when that fails to then harass that president and delegitimize his presidency for a whole term— I mean, they complain about the January 6th guys going in the Capitol for like a short amount of time.
These are people who are doing these machinations for years with the media in full collusion.
Pulitzer Prizes are handed out on the basis of reporting that's now we know to be all fake.
And as you say, what happens next?
Because isn't it obvious that the bad guys, and there are a lot of them, will continue to do this stuff if they are never held to account?
Yeah, there were no consequences.
When there are no consequences, even in our own families, I always try to simplify it, right?
If you're telling your child that something is wrong and you don't hand out any consequences, like restriction or removing a cell phone or saying you can't do that, what happens?
Your child does it again.
Well, now we're dealing with very egregious, in my opinion, criminal acts.
Look, Dinesh, let's just use a hypothetical.
That is a real hypothetical, though.
Let's say you are working for the Central Intelligence Agency, and you want to run an operation against an enemy state.
And let's say it's not just an enemy state, but it's a leader of that enemy state.
Let's go back to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.
And you say, you know what?
I want to run a disinformation campaign against Saddam Hussein, and I want him to be scared.
I want him to think that everyone around him is out to get him.
Some of it's true, some of it won't be so true, but we're going to leak it in the media and then we're going to target him.
Hey, guess what? You need presidential authority to run a disinformation campaign against a world leader.
Who got the presidential authority to utilize taxpayer dollars for training that was meant to target enemies overseas to run a disinformation campaign against the president of the United States, their own president?
Who pays the price for that?
And by the way, there were no consequences, which is the reason why you continue to see the targeting of President Trump by these same actors, these same players, the targeting of his allies.
Right? By these same players going after you, going after anybody who was around President Trump.
We have seen the most egregious acts committed.
Our Fourth Amendment. You know, no unreasonable search and seizure.
All of a sudden, what happened to Carter Page?
What happened to the FISA court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, when they realized, oh, hey, guess what?
The FBI handed us a bunch of lies.
They signed off on paper that they knew was a lie so that we would grant a warrant to spy on an American citizen.
And we still don't even know.
We still don't even know how far it's gone.
I mean, to me, Sarah, the creepy thing is this is not clearly a Peter Strzok, Lisa Page operation.
It was approved at the highest levels.
And we also know that John Brennan briefed Obama on it.
He briefed the top Obama officials on it.
And he conveyed to them that this was a Hillary Clinton operation.
So Obama knew. Obviously, Hillary Clinton knew, all these guys knew, and yet they carried it out.
So I agree with you, the implications are pretty staggering.
Let's take a pause. When we come back, I'm going to ask you about the border, and I'm also going to ask you about a remarkable children's book that you've authored.
We'll be back. Thank you. If aches and pains are the problem, Relief Factor is the remedy.
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Feel the difference. I'm back with award-winning investigative reporter Sarah Carter.
By the way, her website is SarahACarter.com.
Sarah, let me begin by asking you about the border.
This is another remarkable situation.
You've got people pouring over the border, swarming the border towns of Texas.
And it seems, again, a flagrant disregard of immigration law.
They're using technicalities.
Hey, you need a court date?
Come back in 2026.
Come back in 2027.
In the meantime, be our guest in the United States.
And once again, isn't the striking word here there's the lack of accountability.
Evidently they feel a sense of we'll just do it.
Courts won't stop us.
Republicans can investigate us, but they can't do anything.
And so the media will cover for us and actually talk about the fact that things are actually very orderly down on the Southern border.
And so this chaos continues.
You're absolutely right, Dinesh.
I've spent 20 years of my career in and out, off and on, on the front lines of the border, of the southern border.
I have never seen it this bad.
I spent all my time, just last week, I was in Brownsville, Texas.
I can tell you that across the river, there were over 22,000 people just in Brownsville, across the river in Matamoros, waiting to come across.
They were skirting around the concertina wire that was being put up by the National Guard and by our Texas Department of Public Safety that are doing the yeoman's work, right?
Trying to protect our country and the state of Texas from this hordes, a tsunami of people.
And I just want to make it very clear that this is not about being anti-immigrant.
This is about being very pro-immigrant on my part.
I have seen so many children devastated, tragically destroyed by these human traffickers and these drug cartels that are bringing children into our country at the behest, by the way, of the Biden administration, who is not abiding by any laws.
So not only do we have our law enforcement officials' hands tied behind their backs, we have children being trafficked into our country for the most sadistic reasons.
We have children in our nation that have now disappeared into the fabric of our nation that our own HHS can't even find.
And also, coupling all of that, we're losing American citizens not to an epidemic of drug addiction, but to counterfeit pills in our country that are killing our citizens, that are all over our streets.
They are filled with fentanyl and our border is being taken advantage of by our adversaries like China and others.
And right now we're in a situation that I don't know how we're going to recover from, because with over 8 million people in just Biden's term alone, and over more than a million.5 right now known gotaways, How do we know who's in those groups?
And bringing some common sense and decency back to the Western Hemisphere.
We really have failed miserably.
And I feel bad because I love my country so much.
I know you do too.
This is our nation.
We want to protect it.
But I believe like so many in the past, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
And we need to do something now to protect our country.
2024 can't come fast enough, Dinesh.
It seems, Sarah, these days you have to fight, we have to fight on every single front.
One front that you're fighting on, pretty remarkable, a new book, and it's called Joining the Amazing Club, Awesome Sauce.
I mean, what a title! And here's the book, and of course, beautifully illustrated.
And tell us a little bit about why you decided to do a children's book and a little bit about the plot of Joining the Amazing Club, Awesome Sauce.
I was so excited. I was actually a little jealous.
I kept seeing all of you, everyone, conservatives, writing for Brave Books, and I wanted to be a part of the family.
So, of course, I had Brave Book partners contacting me to put people on my show, on my podcast, you know, who had written books.
And I said, well, wait a minute.
What about me? I want to do this.
So I kind of jumped in the middle and I said, I think this is amazing.
I have children. My husband and I have six between us, our youngest being 10.
And I thought, what a remarkable and extraordinary thing, right?
Writing books that have moral values and principles that we want our children to abide by.
And that's why I wrote The Amazing Club, Awesome Sauce.
And in a way, it's about following rules, but it was really about my experience on the border.
And it was a way of teaching children that rules are important, not only to protect them, but to protect others.
Others, you know, and this is the awesome, the Club Awesome Sauce is actually America.
It is the way I feel about my country.
And it's a fun 80s saying, you know, being a part of Club Awesome Sauce.
I'm dating myself right now.
But it's a way of saying like, look, We have this beautiful nation.
We all want to be a part of it.
We all have something to give to it no matter what.
And we want to protect those that are coming in.
And in the book, it walks the kids through that.
It's like, okay, we have this great club, but what if we just let everybody in and let everybody do whatever they wanted?
Well, it wouldn't be such a great club anymore, would it?
We want to know that the people that are coming in are people that really want to be a part of this great nation and want to be a part of that fabric, but we also want to protect them on their way in.
We don't want human traffickers and drug cartels being the middleman for our government and our immigration system.
And I can't talk to kids about those things, but they do get the concept of rules.
And they'll even say, yeah, my mom has rules.
Or, yeah, I have to be in bed by 8 o'clock so I can get up for school in the morning and feel good about myself and feel good about my day.
Or, no, my mom doesn't let me run around at night, at midnight when I'm 10 years old.
So that way I can be safe and protected mentally.
So children really understand that.
I think the sad truth of it is, Dinesh, our children are being robbed of their innocence.
Our nation is being robbed of its spirit.
And a part of me is just heartbroken about that because I know there are so many more good people than bad, especially in this country.
You know it. You get out there.
People want to hear what you have to say.
They listen to you.
They listen to what you've done and the great works that you've produced to expose the corruption in Washington, D.C., I think all we need to do is just start speaking out and just not being afraid.
Don't be afraid to speak out.
Don't be afraid to live by principles that mean something.
It's not that we're not accepting of others.
We are. I think the important thing is that we follow these principles, we follow these rules, and that way we could protect our families and have a great book like this.
So I'm just very excited about it.
And my kids love it.
Have a great book, and have a great nation, and really do our best to follow things through.
I mean, what a cool message and what a wonderful way to communicate it to people who don't normally follow, don't follow issues in all their complexity, young people.
The book is called Joining the Amazing Club.
Awesome Sauce. The author is Sarah Carter.
The publisher is Brave Books.
Sarah, thanks so much for joining me.
Thank you so much, Dinesh.
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Use discount code AMERICA. I'm going to conclude my chapter on natural law and divine law.
It's subtitled The Objective Foundations of Morality.
This is a chapter drawn from my book, What's So Great About Christianity?
By the way, the book available in paperback.
I think you'll find it a really good summary and a really comprehensive case of For God and for Christianity.
I modeled it very much on C.S. Lewis.
C.S. Lewis' work was in a way more focused on a single argument for God based upon morality.
So in a way, Lewis' argument dovetails very closely with the things I've been talking about in this chapter.
And Lewis' argument is that the idea of right and wrong is It's not a matter of your perspective or my perspective.
Moral practices might differ, but moral standards remain enduring.
And we've been looking at various types of objections to the idea of objective morality, not just the relativist objection, but the sort of Darwinian idea that morality is simply a matter of, well, it's kin selection, just a matter of us advancing the interests of people who share our genes, in other words, our close relatives, or the idea that morality is mercenary.
It's reciprocal altruism.
I'll scratch my back if you scratch me.
I'll scratch your back if you scratch my back.
And I tried to show that that'll explain some of what we call moral behavior, but it actually doesn't account for truly unselfish behavior, including not just sacrificing your life for strangers, but even very simple things like giving up your seat on a bus.
We think of conscience.
Conscience is the impartial spectator.
It is the voice within.
And some people think of it as just a feeling.
It's just an inclination.
It's just similar to feeling angry or feeling sad.
I feel like I should do this or do that.
But C.S. Lewis says, and I agree, that conscience is not itself an inclination.
In fact, it's better understood as a referee of inclinations, an umpire, an arbiter of inclinations.
And this is where Adam Smith's phrase, the impartial spectator, is right.
It's almost as if conscience steps back, takes a look at the different feelings that are pulling us one way or the other, and then goes, follow that one.
And so conscience in that sense stands apart.
There might be a strong inclination like the instinct for survival, don't help the person drowning in the river, a weak inclination that goes, yeah, I should help the stranger.
Conscience then intervenes on the side of the weaker instinct and says, that's the right one, follow that one.
Now, notice that the voice of conscience is clear and incontrovertible.
It's clear because it's almost like we can't mistake it.
We know what our conscience is saying.
We know this is wrong.
We also know that it's incontrovertible because there's no such thing as arguing with your conscience.
It's not easy to say if someone says, this is wrong, you've got this inner sense.
This is wrong. You can't go, well, conscience, I believe you're mistaken.
Let me give you four reasons why you're not seeing the situation clearly.
No, we can choose to ignore conscience.
But we can't deny it.
Interestingly, conscience does not use any power of compulsion.
It kind of whispers in our ear, if you will, this is wrong.
It urges us to follow its edict.
And it even has a certain kind of judicial authority.
It's almost like it is a judge.
It is making a kind of ruling.
We are obliged to do this no matter how we feel about it.
And yet, it doesn't force us.
We can ignore it.
We can reject it.
I don't know of any other voice in our experience that speaks to us in this way.
Conscience is our perennial guide, sort of our personal moral tutor.
It seems to require nothing beside itself.
It is unconcerned with convenience or reputation.
It seems to operate most strongly when no one is looking.
As I said, we can reject the appeal of conscience, but if we do, we can't help but pass judgment on ourselves using the very criteria supplied by conscience.
It has the ability to make us feel reproach, to make self-reproach.
It gives us remorse.
It gives us shame.
And it also gives us the feeling that these consequences are deserved.
So it's one of the most mysterious and powerful aspects of humanity.
For Immanuel Kant, conscience is a kind of noumenal voice that speaks to us directly from within ourselves, giving us a certainty that is unavailable to us from other outer or phenomenal experience.
This is a philosophical way, of course, to describe morality.
C.S. Lewis puts it more simply.
Conscience, he says, is the voice of God inside of us.
It's the voice of God inside.
Speaking to us through our soul.
It's the bridge that links the creature to the Creator.
And hey, even the atheist hears the internal clarion call of conscience.
Why? Because even the atheist has morality at the core of his or her being.
And while the atheist may have rejected God, God has not rejected him.
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