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Oct. 22, 2021 - Dinesh D'Souza
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THE UNRAVELING Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep202
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In this special episode today, I'm going to conduct an in-depth interview and conversation with investigative writer Julie Kelly.
She writes for the website American Greatness.
She's been the primary reporter looking at the events of January 6th and the whole unraveling of the public and the leftist narrative surrounding January 6th.
So we're going to get into the The details of it, what new information is coming out, how it undercuts what the left has put out starting on January 6th itself, and the startling implications.
This is the Dimash Kudaibergen podcast.
The times are crazy and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
Guys, I'm really happy to welcome to the podcast Julie Kelly.
Julie is the journalist, the investigative writer who's been doing indispensable work on January 6th.
In fact, sometimes I feel like she's the only one who's doing it, and her articles are just a necessary source of information for what's going on on the ground.
Julie, welcome. Delighted to have you as always.
Let me start by talking about the sort of master narrative of January 6th, because this narrative came right out the gate.
Almost before the event itself was concluded, you sort of had a flurry of terms, riot, terrorist action, insurrection, coup...
And the underlying idea was that you had a Trump-instigated, planned operation to overthrow the government, to stop the democratic counting of votes, a usurpation of power that was basically being driven by a murderous mob that killed a police officer, Brian Sicknick, in the process.
So this was the narrative that was amplified across the media, from the print media to the television networks.
And here we are, what, nine months later, and it appears like all of it has, well, I don't know if I'd say all of it has completely fallen apart, but it's mostly fallen apart, hasn't it?
What is your take on where that narrative stands today?
Well, thanks again, Dinesh, for having me on and for continuing to cover this.
You were one of the first people early on to cover my work and help expose, as you're saying, the crumbling narrative about January 6th.
So what's interesting, Dinesh, is I went back and looked.
The term insurrection actually started that afternoon in a series of tweets by Democrat lawmakers who were in hiding from these insurrectionists.
So that was the term that was seeded early.
I suspect it was not a coincidence.
It was not just, you know, all these people organically started using this word, including George W. Bush and his wife in a statement around 6 o'clock that night.
It's almost like it was preconceived.
And so to this day, though, Dinesh, more than 650 Americans have been arrested.
The DOJ and FBI round up new people every single week to charge with various crimes.
Mostly misdemeanors.
But no one has been charged with insurrection.
No one has been charged with sedition.
No one's been charged with seditious conspiracy.
There are people who have been charged with conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding.
But what's happening in the courts, as awful as it is to many of these people, does not line up with the narratives.
And to your point, major parts of this story are breaking down from what happened to Brian Sicknick to now new video I know we'll talk about that was released just this week that again undermines what we were told about what happened that day.
Julie, we'll get to the video in a moment.
Let me ask you this.
You made the remarkable observation that not just the Democrats, but there were people on the conservative side, Republicans, and George Bush was certainly not alone in almost immediately embracing this narrative, endorsing it.
And to this day, many of those people want to stay away from this narrative.
They appear to have conceded the ideological point.
They have in a sense abandoned the field as far as the January 6th defenders are concerned.
How do you explain this very peculiar behavior on the part of the opposition on whose behalf many of these people saw themselves fighting?
That is really the frustrating part, I know, for me, but more so for the people who were there.
They were there to protest what they believed that justifiably was a rigged 2020 election, which we know now is true.
Even Time Magazine Acknowledged it, right?
In February of 2021, how all these powerful interests work together.
They said to fortify the election, but that's not what it was.
It was to steal it. And so these people showed up in droves, hundreds of thousands of people on January 6th, and they had been there in November to rally, and they had been there in December at rallies, the Stop the Steal rallies.
But, so this is really the base of the Republican Party, and certainly We're good to go.
On the House Judiciary Committee, I haven't heard him blast anyone for what this DOJ is doing, a clearly partisan prosecution of innocent Americans charged with trespassing while their lives are being ruined.
And so I think what happened in early on, most of the Republicans bought into this insurrection, they backed away from it, they're afraid of being labeled part of the sedition caucus.
And even as all of this crumbles and this prosecution is now exposed to, most of them still refuse to say anything.
And I will say Donald Trump too was late to the game himself in calling out what's been happening and defending these January 6th protesters and defendants now, as I said, more than 650.
In Trump's case, Julie, I think I have a slight explanation for why he might do that.
And that is, of course, the left was trying to tie him to the insurrection from the beginning.
It was his insurrection.
He instigated it.
What I find it harder to believe is as information emerges...
Why the Republican Party would be so craven, so cowardly.
It's almost as if the swamp is theirs to protect also.
Well, when we come back, Julie, you had alluded to the videotape, so let's dive into this videotape.
This is videotape reluctantly released by the government, and we're going to examine what that videotape shows.
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I'm back with investigative writer Julie Kelly.
Julie, by the way, writes in American Greatness.
It's amgreatness.com.
You can check out her articles and lots of good work that American Greatness does.
One of my favorite sites on the web.
Julie, you know, there's been some new video that's been released, released reluctantly by the government, which has 14,000 hours of video, but they're only releasing it piecemeal, typically when they're forced to.
And they were forced to release some video in the Ethan Nordean case.
And what I want you to comment on is, what does this video show vis-a-vis the kind of official narrative that protesters stormed the Capitol, they broke in, they attacked law enforcement, they forced their way past these brave law enforcement officers who were trying to stop them.
And we look at the video and we see what?
And we see that's not the case.
We see on the Upper West Terrace between about 2.30 and 3 o'clock that afternoon, the double doors had been opened from the inside.
There were Capitol Police officers standing right there as more than 300 protesters entered the building.
Now this would be an access point to the rotunda right in the middle between the House and Senate wings of the Capitol building.
So they were let in.
A lot of them were acknowledging police, you know, saying thank you.
There's no audio. But I've talked to people who have audio, and that is exactly what they said, what was happening.
So here we have yet again video evidence that contradicts not just the media narrative, not just what Joe Biden and Merrick Garland and Nancy Pelosi insists.
But also contradicts more offensively what the Justice Department, what prosecutors are writing in court documents and motions in the case of Ethan Nordean, that he forcibly made his way into the Capitol building.
That's not the case at all.
So you have prosecutors misleading courts.
And not explaining accurately what happened.
And certainly the 300 people who entered there did not even think that they were trespassing or doing anything wrong.
They were let into the building by U.S. Capitol Police.
It's very clear from that video that that was the case.
I mean, what struck me watching the video is the sort of sheer serenity of it.
I mean, I realize there's no audio, but it looks like it's no big deal.
These people don't act like they are mounting some kind of a crusade.
It's almost like if you're in a museum and you want to go down a wing and maybe the wing says closed, but there's a security guard there and he doesn't say anything as you walk by.
And so people get the implicit message that it's perfectly okay to come in here and have your voices heard.
Now, do you think that the courts can disregard the evidence that the video shows?
How have these judges proven to be in taking a look at this kind of evidence?
Most of these judges are an embarrassment, in my opinion.
And this goes from Trump judges to Obama judges.
There's still a few Reagan appointees on the D.C. District Court.
They have gone along with whatever this Justice Department has asked for, from pretrial detention orders to continuing to delay these cases 30, 60 days at a time, and then not pushing back on discovery.
Look, nine months later, the government still does not have a full platform for all the digital evidence that can be shared with defense attorneys.
What they did was arrest people first, try to build cases later, and now still don't have all this video available for defense counsel.
Well, how can you have that nine months later?
Almost 10 months now.
So the judges keep going along.
I don't know what will happen in the case of Ethan Nordean.
He has been behind bars since he was arrested in February.
Will this matter when they show the judge and try to petition for him to be released from jail?
I don't know. I'm doubtful.
Because these judges are fully invested in this narrative, too.
They are personally offended that hundreds of thousands of deplorables entered their personal fiefdom on January 6th, and they want them punished, just like Joe Biden's Justice Department does.
I think it was Senator Ron Johnson who had made the allegation that there was a kind of opening that was made possible for these guys and large numbers of people went through it.
Would you say that this video evidence, this new video evidence corroborates what Ron Johnson has said?
It definitely does, Dinesh.
So Ron Jackson is one of the few lawmakers in Congress who has access to this because of his position.
I believe he's head of the permanent, one of the subcommittees on intelligence.
So he saw this video over the summer.
He sent a letter to the then-acting director of U.S. Capitol Police with a list of questions, including who those officers were.
Were they investigated?
Were they deposed? And if not, he wanted to speak to them about what happened.
Of course, There was no response, but it definitely does corroborate and verify what Ron Johnson said in that letter.
But again, Ron Johnson is basically the only senator, Republican senator, who's even interested in this and trying somewhat to get to the truth.
When we come back, I want to talk about...
Some specific cases involving January 6, starting with the case of the two Trump supporters who seem to have been killed on January 6 under highly suspicious circumstances.
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I'm back with investigative journalist Julie Kelly.
We're talking about the events of January 6th and their implications.
Julie, let's talk a little bit about the case of Ashley Babbitt and also the case of Roseanne Boylan.
In the case of Ashley Babbitt, here you have a Trump supporter who was coming through a window, admittedly pushing her way through a window.
My first question is, was she the one who broke that window or did somebody else break the window and then she tried to get through it?
Someone else broke the window and I believe has been charged as well, yes.
Okay, so she's coming through a window, and you've got this officer, Lieutenant Mike Bird, and he claims that he was in grave danger himself, and so were other elected officials, and in order to protect them, he was compelled to use lethal force.
Now, on the face of it, isn't this an absurd statement?
I say that because you've got Capitol, you've got police officers and security behind Ashley Babbitt.
You've got police officers and security in the building.
Mike Byrd is not the only one there.
There is Ashley Babbitt herself, as it turns out, was not armed.
But the point is...
All these people could easily have shut her down, knocked her down, immobilized her.
The idea that one 100-pound woman could pose a lethal danger to all the elected officials there, including Mike Byrd.
I mean, isn't this a patent absurdity?
It really is.
And the way that you describe it really illuminates How unfair, how unjust it was that she was shot and killed in that almost at point blank range.
I mean, he was standing right there.
There was no reason for him to shoot her at all.
He had his gun drawn, actually, Dinesh.
There's photos that show him with his gun drawn as he's racing through, running through the gallery or the chamber leading up to the window.
And his gun was pointed at several different people while he was going through.
Now we know that he's also been caught leaving a loaded gun in a bathroom in the Capitol building.
So this is not a responsible police officer.
He should not have been there that day on the job.
But the biggest outrage is the cover-up, right?
So he was allowed to keep his identity concealed for months by both the media, who knew exactly who it was, and also, of course, U.S. Capitol Police.
And so he finally had the opportunity to reveal himself to Lester Holt in an interview, defend himself, portray himself as the hero, And of course, every internal investigation has exonerated what he did, and he'll be back on the job, which he absolutely should not be.
But what's really too disgusting is how the media has portrayed the killing of Ashley Babbitt.
Somehow she deserved what happened to her, that she was a conspiracy theorist, that she followed Q. She was some kind of Trump cultist.
And so I guess in that case, it's okay for a federal officer to shoot and kill someone in a public building like he did, and the media just covers up for him and then justifies on his behalf that she really had it coming.
I mean, Julie, if you apply the exact same standard that they used in justifying this killing, namely, you've got a protester.
She's agitated.
She is breaking the law by coming through a window.
Therefore, it's perfectly fine not just to use force but to use lethal force.
I mean, imagine if that standard were applied to the Antifa and BLM protesters across the country.
I mean, there would literally have been thousands of them executed by the officials.
In other words, by the authorities.
Why? Because A, they're breaking the law.
B, they collectively pose a danger.
Who knows what they're going to do?
So that even if they are unarmed, it's perfectly okay not just to shoot them, but to kill them.
So, how is it the case that this absurd double standard has been accepted, as you say, both by the government and by the media?
Does it simply just come down to the fact that, hey, she's a Trump supporter, it's open season on her, oh no, these are our guys, we can't treat them the same way?
Right. Of course, it's a huge double standard.
And so think about this, Dinesh.
Why didn't anybody shoot the woman who confronted Jeff Flake, a U.S. senator, in the elevator in October of 2018 when she was berating him in an elevator?
Where were the people shooting, people menacing, like Senator Rand Paul and his wife when they left?
A lot of lawmakers that BLM and Antifa were harassing, I believe it was last September, September of 2020, when they left a White House event.
I mean, they were right in their faces, including a disabled Republican lawmaker.
Where were the cops?
Would it be okay to shoot them?
Can you imagine if a US Capitol Police had shot the woman who was harassing Jeff Flake in the elevator?
I mean, the double standard is so egregious, but to your point, it's because she was a Trump supporter.
So it's okay. Never mind that she's a veteran with tours of duty overseas, including Iraq and Afghanistan.
It doesn't matter because she voted and supported Donald Trump.
A friend of ours, this is Congressman Troy Nels.
He's also a longtime sheriff of Fort Bend County.
He makes a very interesting point here in a letter that is sent to the Attorney General.
He says, if Ms.
Babbitt was still alive today, would the federal charges levied against her ever warrant the use of deadly force?
So let's say that she wasn't killed.
What would she be charged with?
Breaking and entering? Being unauthorized in a public building?
Well, those don't seem to be offenses that justify the unleashing of lethal force against her.
So, what I find remarkable is also, and is this not a fact that they have not released the files and the testimony that was used as the basis for them to make the decision that this guy was, that whatever he was doing was completely kosher?
That's right. And I know Judicial Watch got about 500 pages of documents from D.C. Metro Police, which conducted an investigation as well.
But U.S. Capitol Police, I'll tell you, this is a great gig.
They are technically a part of the legislative branch.
So they're not subjected to any FOIA requests.
That's why they can... Keep these 14,000 hours, which technically belong to US Capitol Police, they can keep that video surveillance video under wraps.
That's why they don't have to release any of the internal details of the investigation, so to speak, that they conducted on Officer Byrd.
They don't have to release any of that.
They're totally unaccountable agency, which they want to expand to other states, by the way, like Florida and California.
So let's make sure that doesn't happen.
But yes, this would never happen in any other situation.
A federal officer shooting and killing an unarmed woman in a public building and getting away with it.
When we come back, I want to ask Julie about a judge who did find civil rights violations in the case of a January 6th defendant.
We'll be right back.
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Or go to balanceofnature.com and use discount code AMERICA. I'm back with investigative writer Julie Kelly, who writes for American Greatness.
We're talking about January 6th.
We've just talked about Ashley Babbitt.
Now, there is one case, Julie, in which a federal judge, and I don't want to overpraise this guy because he's actually responsible for the defendant being in jail in the first place, but this is District Court Judge Royce Lambert.
He did find that in the case of Christopher Worrell, one of the defendants, That this guy's civil rights are being violated, being violated by the D.C. correctional officers, by the warden, and he did take some steps to try to correct it.
Describe what he found and what the basis was for that finding.
Christopher Worrell, his home was raided last March.
He was charged with a number of offenses, including allegedly attacking a police officer with pepper spray.
He has been detained ever since.
He was moved to the D.C. jail from his home in Florida to the D.C. jail where he's been since April.
Chris Worrell suffers from non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
He also fell and broke his hand in May.
And neither one of those ailments has been attended to by the monsters who run this D.C. gulag, who are doing everything they can to punish these Trump supporters.
And so Judge Lamberth, who, as you noted, has kept Chris Worrell behind bars, denied his release in June, and still has a motion pending before him to release him so he can go home and take care of his stage 3 cancer.
Which needs intensive chemotherapy and radiation, according to one of the medical examiners who looked at him.
And so Royce Lamberth has been asking where the jail stood in terms of making sure he got the needed surgery and his cancer care, and the warden and the director of DC Correctional's Department of Corrections refused to turn over those documents to the U.S. Marshals so they could take care and make sure that Chris Burrell was getting the treatment that he needed.
So by the time they finally turned those documents over, it was too late.
Judge Lamberth was very irritated that his orders had been ignored.
He found both of the warden and the director of D.C. DOC in contempt of court and then referred the matter to the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department Claiming that not just Chris Worrell's civil rights were being violated, but potentially everyone inside that D.C. jail that now has about 40 January 6th defendants and wants them to investigate what's happening there.
Will they? I doubt it.
But at least it was a little glimmer of hope for the men who have been languishing in that jail for months.
I do see from NBC a report that either yesterday or the day before, a group of U.S. marshals did go to the jail, I guess following up from Judge Lambert's ruling, they interviewed January 6 inmates.
I don't know what their conclusions are or whether any actions were taken, but they do say that they're following court orders.
Now, surely Judge Lambert knows that if he turns this over to the Justice Department, this, of course, is the Biden Justice Department, the very people prosecuting these guys.
I mean, what is the probability that they're going to go, oops, we've got to really go after these offending wardens and so on?
Why didn't the judge do the more obvious thing, which is, listen, I'm going to let you get released now so you can get this kind of tree.
Wouldn't that have been a more appropriate kind of condign way of dealing with the situation instead of turning it over to a bureaucracy that can't be trusted in the first place?
Absolutely. He should have immediately released Chris Worrell.
He has a motion pending before his court, another one by his lawyer asking for him to be released so he can go home to Florida, get the proper care that he needs.
Royce Lamberth did not do that.
Royce Lamberth was not really mad on behalf of the J6 detainees.
He was mad because they weren't abiding by his order.
Now, as this progresses, of course, Judge Lamberth has a few cases before him.
From the same Justice Department, I'm not so sure that he is just going to be satisfied with some basic report from the U.S. Marshal Service or even DOJ that says, oh, he went in there.
I heard this. You know, they mopped up the floor.
They cleaned some of the sheets.
They made it look better because it's filthy in there.
I'm not so sure he'll be convinced or appeased by any of that.
So we'll see what happens in the next hearing in this particular case.
But what is great, Dinesh, is that this gives a solid basis for a lot of these men to turn around and sue the government for what they've done to them by using Judge Lambert's words that they were being treated differently because they are January 6th defendants, which is, of course, factually true.
You mentioned, Julie, that these guys have had a hard time not just with Obama appointees, but they've had a hard time with Bush appointees, they've had a hard time with Reagan appointees, even with Trump appointees.
Is that because all these judges see themselves as part of the establishment, they're protecting a system, and Trump and the Trumpsters are a challenge to that system?
So to that degree, even if these guys are Republican nominees, I think that's a big part of it, Dinesh. He has kept someone named Tim Hale Cusinelli behind bars since the middle of January.
Tim Hale is not accused of any violent crime, no violent crime.
He's the alleged white supremacist.
And so he has repeatedly not only kept him behind bars, but just delayed his trial, which was supposed to start November 9th.
And Judge McFadden, because the government doesn't have their act together, delayed his trial until May 23rd.
of 2022, which means Tim Hale, who's charged with no violent crime, not attacking a police officer, no vandalism inside of the Capitol building, did nothing wrong.
Went in, took some pictures, and left.
So Judge McFadden is going to keep him behind bars at least 15 months until his trial is supposed to start at the end of May, which will probably get continued again.
They have no evidence against Tim Hale.
And McFadden continually, while he makes little comments, he actually said, Dinesh, I feel like Tim Hale's Fourth and Sixth Amendment rights are being violated.
He said that over the summer.
So he knows what this Justice Department is doing is wrong and violating clear constitutional rights to protect these men like Tim Hale, but yet he continues to keep him behind bars and now delaying his trial seven months into the middle of next year.
And wow, Julie, am I not right that this is the exact guy who actually, I think as far as I know, the first judge to raise a question of the comparison between the treatment of the BLM Antifa types and the January 6th defendant.
So even though he recognizes or seemed to recognize the disparity...
Still, you're saying his actions don't support this finding.
Let's take a break, because when we come back, I want to ask Julie about some of these other cases.
I mean, to me, heart-rending cases, which I think justify the description of these January 6th defendants as political prisoners.
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I'm back with investigative writer Julie Kelly.
She writes for American Greatness.
You can find her work at amgreatness.com.
Julie, let's talk about some of these January 6th defendants and their cases, looking at what they are alleged to have done And then sort of matching it against the way that they are treated.
Because obviously, justice isn't just a matter of whether you broke the law.
You could be speeding, but you're not going to get your arm chopped off for that, or two years in prison for that.
The penalty must fit the crime.
There has to be some proportionality.
To satisfy the basic requirement of justice.
So let's start with the case of George Tanios, a guy who, as you say, his fiancé told him, you've got to go to D.C. on January 6th because there's history being made there.
So this guy goes to D.C. Let's talk about what happens and what happened to him.
So George Tanios and his friend Julian Cater went to D.C. on January 5th.
They wanted to watch Trump's speech.
And then they really didn't have plans to go to the Capitol, as George told me.
But they went anyway because, you know, there was a big crowd headed that way.
Neither one of them ever went inside the building.
What they are accused of is conspiring to assault Officer Sicknick and two other officers with pepper spray.
But Dinesh, what this case really is about is after the New York Times was forced to retract their January 8th article claiming that Brian Signick was bludgeoned to death by fire extinguisher used by Trump supporters, that was a total lie.
And so they had to retract that.
Then they had to pivot to the fact, well, Brian Signick had to die for some reason, something to do with Trump supporters.
So the next thing that they came up with is that he died from an allergic reaction We're good to go.
So, both of them are charged with conspiring and three charges for assaulting a police officer using a deadly or dangerous weapon, which is pepper spray.
Of course, you know, Dinesh, that never applied to any of the Antifa BLM rioters who did the same thing to federal officers.
But in this case, they were both arrested.
FBI raided their home.
Julian Cater was actually arrested by the FBI when he got off a plane.
And they were immediately sent to the D.C. jail where Julian Cater remains.
George Tanios was finally released on appeal.
Judge Hogan, an 83-year-old Reagan appointee who forced both of them, denied bail to both of them.
A $15 million bond package, I will note, by Julian Cater's family still denied that.
And George Tanios finally was released on appeal in August.
But this is just another egregious case of the double standard.
Can you imagine if we had a special jail for all of the BLM and Antifa rioters who assaulted police, threw bottles at them, threw cans of soup at them, physically confronted them?
None of them are being held, denied bail like these two men.
And so they are simply being charged to keep alive the lie that Brian Sicknick was killed by Trump supporters, even though we know he died of natural causes of a stroke, unfortunately, at the age of 42, had nothing to do with what any Trump supporter did, including Julian Cater and George Tania.
you.
Very disturbing.
Let's turn to Thomas Caldwell, who's one of the Oath Keepers.
But this is a guy who is a veteran, as I understand.
He's also handicapped.
He has no criminal record.
He served the country for 20 years in the military.
Let's talk about what he did or what he's alleged to have done and what has happened to him since.
So Thomas Caldwell is a disabled veteran.
He suffers from spinal injuries from his service.
He can still get around, but it's very painful.
65 years old, he and his wife went to Trump's speech.
Well, they tried to get to Trump's speech.
It was so crowded. But then they walked towards the Capitol.
They wanted to do a little bit of sightseeing.
He never entered the building.
He is an alleged Oath Keeper, which he never joined the Oath Keepers.
So, the FBI raided their Virginia farm.
Neither one of them, he and his wife Sharon, of course, have a criminal record.
Busted down their door at 5.30 in the morning, guns drawn at both him and his wife.
They dragged Thomas Caldwell through the grass, threw him up on a police vehicle, this is per my interview with him, handcuffed him, interrogated him for two hours without a lawyer present, raided their home, took every family photograph that they have, all of their devices. And this happened on January 19th.
He then was charged by the grand jury on January 27th with conspiracy.
This is part of the big Oath Keeper conspiracy case.
How can you put a conspiracy case together, Dinesh, in two weeks based on what?
Text messages? So it didn't matter.
Thomas Caldwell was also denied bail.
He was sent to jail in Virginia, where he languished for 49 days in solitary confinement, 53 days in jail total before he finally was released.
And so he faces several charges, but he's got a very good lawyer, unlike most of these defendants.
Who's fighting back against the government charges.
But that is what happened to a decorated military naval lieutenant commander and his wife who did nothing wrong either.
This is what this government is doing to people across the country.
And what you're saying is that the basis of his charges is not that he entered the Capitol because he didn't, is not that he was violent in the Capitol because he wasn't, but is it because he is alleged to be part of a ring of Oath Keepers who together supposedly conspired to, what, storm the Capitol?
What are they accused of?
Because none of the Oath Keepers, as I understand, even got in the Capitol, did they?
Yes, they did. Here's the terrifying thing that the Oath Keepers did.
It's really scary. They wore their military garb.
They went into the Capitol in a stack formation.
They had no weapons.
They didn't attack any police officers.
They were inside for about 20 minutes.
They took selfies. They didn't touch anything, didn't vandalize, didn't do any of the more violent crimes that people are charged with, and they left the building.
That's the totality of this huge conspiracy.
I don't know. What is so criminal, federal criminal conspiracy to have, you know, a dozen or so people enter in a stack formation and do nothing violent or criminal inside of a public building?
It's just preposterous.
But this is supposed to also feed the narrative, just like Julian Cater and George Tanya's.
This is supposed to feed the narrative that there are these dangerous white supremacist militia groups lurking across the country, waiting to attack our democracy, and the Oath Keepers is one of them.
But we still don't have person one in the Oath Keepers case, Stuart Rhodes, the leader of it, who has been charged, and that's raising a lot of questions as to why.
When we come back, I'd like to probe this matter of the Oath Keepers further with Julie Kelly.
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I'm back with investigative writer Julie Kelly.
We're talking about January 6th and we're talking, Julie, about the Oath Keepers.
Now, what's remarkable is this is supposed to be the most terrifying of all the insurrectionist groups.
Yet, as you say, what they did was march in the Capitol.
They were there for about 20 minutes.
And they took photos and left.
So this gives you an idea of the mismatch between the rhetoric and the reality.
But there's one real anomaly, and I know that the guys at Revolver News have been all over this.
It's the anomaly that the Oath Keepers has a leader.
He recruited many of these guys into this.
He brought them to D.C. He was organizing their efforts.
I believe he didn't go in the Capitol, but he was constantly monitoring people as they did go in the Capitol.
And this man has not been arrested.
He has not been charged.
And I think Revolver News' implication is that this guy is probably an FBI guy or an FBI informant who had been Deposited or who had essentially been used within the oath keepers to bust all these other guys.
Talk a little bit about Stuart Rhodes and about his role in this whole matter.
Yes, and I'm glad that you gave credit to Darren Beatty at Revolver News.
He's really the one who is digging into this and raised the first questions about why Stuart Rhodes, who is the head of the Oath Keepers, who is person one.
In every single conspiracy, I think we're now at the sixth superseding indictment in the Oath Keepers case, yet here he is more than nine months later walking around a free man.
And the question is, why?
If there was a conspiracy to attack the Capitol, Stuart Rhodes was central to that.
And then the New York Times sort of came in to clean up like they love to do and said, oh, Stuart Rhodes submitted to an FBI interview in May and turned over his cell phone.
And then they gave his cell phone back.
You know, nothing that's happened to any of the other Oath Keepers.
So why is he still not charged?
We have the first trial dates have been set in the Oath Keeper case.
We have three people who are in the D.C. jail.
They've been there since last spring.
Again, not charged with any violent crimes.
But they're detained for some reason, and Stuart Rhodes isn't.
And so that's raising a lot of questions.
And now we do know, thanks to the New York Times, There were at least two federal FBI informants who had infiltrated the Proud Boys and were on the ground with them that day communicating with FBI handlers.
So the idea that there was no FBI informant, anyone involved in the Oath Keepers, it just defies plausibility.
Well, Julie, what seems to give this idea that the FBI not only had informants, but to some degree was involved in January 6th, but possibly was even the instigator, at least of some of what happened on January 6th, is given credibility by the fact that we see that MO, that modus operandi, played out in the Governor Whitmer kidnapping case.
Talk for a bit about the parallels between the Governor Whitmer kidnapping case and January 6th.
So the court proceedings in that case are really revealing in terms of how it could support the FBI's involvement in January 6th.
You have now 13 people charged for crimes for the, I call it the kidnapping case, because of course the FBI is the one who came up with the kidnapping of Gretchen Whitmer, which coincidentally was covered by the news.
These arrests took place as early voting was going on.
In the key swing state of Michigan, they announced these arrests on October 8th.
They blamed Donald Trump for it, etc., etc.
But what happened is there was one FBI informant or agent for every person who was arrested.
They have at least a dozen FBI informants and undercover agents who were involved in this plot who did everything, Dinesh.
They orchestrated it.
They funded these surveillance trips.
They set these guys up to buy explosives, and that's when they were arrested.
So now that that case, the federal case, has a 90-day continuance given by the judge because the defense wants to investigate all of the FBI behavior.
Now, I've written about some of it.
People can read my articles at amgreatness.com about what's going on in that case.
It is fascinating.
But the FBI started what's called Operation Cold Snap in the spring of 2020 to infiltrate these militia groups.
There is no way that they just did that for the Whitmer plot and a few other plots that they were trying to pull together and not for January 6th.
It just does not make any sense.
I mean one interesting tidbit right out of your article Julie is that the very guy who was directing the FBI operation in the Whitmer kidnapping bust Was then transferred to Washington DC where he is now a key figure in the January 6th investigation So this is not just a matter of seeing intellectual similarities between the two cases The guy running this operation over here has been moved over here, and he's now directing the January 6th
Follow-up is that correct?
That is correct Steven D. Antono, I believe is how you pronounce his name.
He was head of the D of the Detroit FBI office field office who oversaw this operation The arrests were made on October 8th.
On October 13th, he's promoted to the D.C. field office.
Now, why was he moved around?
There's no such thing as coincidences in Chris Ray's FBI investigation.
And so there was a reason why he got that plum assignment and why he was out of the box talking about what the FBI was going to do to all these people, rounding them up across the country because of what happened on January 6th.
So there are no coincidences.
We're going to find out a lot more about the FBI's central involvement in what happened on January 6th.
I mean, Julie, I think in retrospect, when you look at these, I think back now to Governor Whitmer's press conference, where she sounded totally shocked that there was an effort to kidnap her.
She sounded totally shocked that these groups were doing this.
And as you say, she pointed the finger at Trump.
But knowing what we know now, she already knew about the plot.
She had already been tipped off about it.
So all of this was a kind of theater or drama that she put on to create, as you say, a public narrative.
But She was in the know.
She knew all along that she was never in any real danger, didn't she?
She absolutely did know all along.
And she did give this dramatic press conference.
Joe Biden came out with a statement condemning Trump for the alleged kidnapping plot.
Democrats were all over that, as you recall.
So think of those headlines that were created, not just in Michigan as voting was going on, but across the country and blaming Trump for these evil militia men who were trying to kidnap one of the plots, Dinesh, The FBI tried to orchestrate at the same time was a plot to assassinate the Virginia governor, Ralph Northam. I guess they couldn't pull that off before the election, too.
But there's clear evidence that the FBI tried to put that together, too.
And so there is just such a corrupt and moral rot at this FBI. Also, interestingly, Dinesh, Kash Patel says the only person they could not get a hold of on January 5th and January 6th From the Joint Chiefs to the Defense Secretary down the line, the only person they could not reach was Christopher Wray.
Why is that? What was Christopher Wray doing on January 5th and 6th?
It would be nice if somebody asked him that question during one of his congressional hearings.
When we come back, I'm going to wrap it up with Julie Kelly.
We're going to talk not just about the significance of January 6th, but what you can do to help some of these defendants and also some of these families that are in dire straits.
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I'm back with investigative writer Julie Kelly.
We're talking about January 6th.
Julie, this has been a Herculean endeavor for you.
You were on it right from the beginning.
You've stayed on it.
You're in the courtroom listening to these cases.
You report on them as they happened.
I mean, you've devoted a chunk of your life to this.
Talk about what it's meant to you and why you've done it.
It seems like this is something that, I mean, you're at the core outraged by what you see.
Talk about the experience as it has changed you.
Well, thank you for that.
Yeah, I mean, this just should not be happening in our country.
And what really I think upsets me the most on a personal level is watching the government go after very vulnerable people, being gratified at destroying innocent Americans, tearing up their families, having them alienated by their neighbors.
One man's church kicked him out because he was there on January 6th.
But this just is, this is twisted.
There's something really wrong with the people who are doing this.
And of course my heart aches for the Americans who are caught up in this, for their innocent family members, especially their kids.
And so it has become not just a professional obligation, but a little bit of a personal crusade too.
And so that's really, you know, it's been illuminating in a lot of ways, but I think at the end of the day, and I tell people who call me all the time, their family members or the detainees, defendants themselves, they said, look, at the end of the day, you are going to be exonerated.
We are going to get most of the truth of what happened that day.
And I just tell them millions of Americans are praying for them every day.
And that's really, you know, the most that we can do.
You mentioned not just the innocence of some of the defendants, but the innocence of all of their families.
Debbie and I were interested to learn that there are now, there's a kind of community that's developed among these defendants' families.
They talk to each other.
They do kind of an inventory of what their needs are.
And as you say, some of their lives have been totally wrecked.
And they're scrambling to find even basic necessities.
I want people to know if there's something that they can do to help because no help is coming, or very little, from the Republican Party.
So as a result, it's up to ordinary citizens.
You're doing your part.
We're doing our part. What can an ordinary guy who goes, listen, you know, I'd like to help these guys.
What can I do to relieve the suffering of their families?
What can I do to make their lives a little better, even as they go through this Biden administration incarceration and torture?
Well, I want to thank you and Debbie again for your generous $100,000 donation to what's called the Patriot Freedom Project.
It's patriotfreedomproject.com.
You guys really helped seed the initial major donation there.
They keep pulling in donations every day.
There is huge need I mean, almost all of these people have lost their jobs.
They were fired immediately.
Businesses have been shut down.
Of course, the men who are detained can't support their families.
Even the ones who are released are on home detention or home incarceration.
They still can't work.
So these families really need support.
And so I'm so grateful, and I know the family members are too, for what you and Debbie have done.
And that's really the best way to help.
We're also helping, that fund is helping defray some legal costs.
Of course, there aren't a lot of lawyers stepping up to help these lawyers.
Folks pro bono.
And so that is really doing a lot of the heavy lifting financially.
And it's just one of the women I know you had her on, Cynthia Hughes, who's a family member of one of the detainees.
So they've sort of taken it on themselves.
But it wouldn't have been possible without your early generous donation.
So again, thank you to you and Debbie.
Well, Julie, that means a lot.
Our goal was, you know, we want to ask people to give and it would make no sense to do that without doing what we can.
So the website is patriotfreedomproject.com.
Julie and I both know the person who is dispensing those funds.
She's completely trustworthy.
She's a working class woman married to a cop.
And these are people who have a very good, close-to-the-ground assessment of who needs what.
So there's no money that's going to go to administrative costs or any sort of rigmarole.
You're given money to direct needs.
And so anything that you can do, guys, to help out here would be greatly appreciated.
Julie, what an eye-opening conversation.
Thank you so much for joining me.
And keep up the great work that you're doing.
You too, Dinesh. Thanks so much for covering this.
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