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May 26, 2021 - Dinesh D'Souza
01:08:02
THE RACISM OF THE LEFT Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep 98
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The hidden and not-so-hidden racism of the left.
And Rudy Giuliani joins me to talk about why they're going after him.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza podcast.
America needs this voice.
The times are crazy and a time of confusion, division and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
A series of incidents involving race points collectively to the racism of the left.
And this is a very important topic because the racism of the left is camouflaged.
In fact, it's camouflaged as anti-racism.
The left positions itself, and the Democrats do, as if they're on a crusade to go after racism.
They're all about fighting racism.
This is the centerpiece of their agenda.
But when we look carefully, we begin to see that underneath that, There's all kinds of brewing prejudice and hatred.
Hatred really toward, in some sense, all the major ethnic groups.
And I'm going to unravel that in a moment.
Let me start with the incidents themselves, and then I'm going to talk about their deeper meanings.
So Joe Biden's assistant attorney general, and believe it or not, the attorney general for civil rights, turns out in her background to be an out-and-out racist.
In fact, a believer, and you could almost call it black supremacy.
Black supremacy. We're talking about Kristen Clarke.
Who was the president of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law.
Think about this. An out-and-out anti-white supremacist who is now having all these important civil rights positions and is now the number two person in the Justice Department.
It was Tucker Carlson who revealed several weeks ago now that Kristen Clarke, when she was a student at Harvard, Had signed a letter to the Harvard Crimson in which she said, among other things, I'm not quoting her, melanin.
Melanin is the agent that essentially is responsible for skin color.
I mean, I'm brown because of melanin.
Melanin endows blacks with greater mental, physical, and spiritual abilities, something which cannot be measured based on Eurocentric standards.
Now, interestingly, when this came up, In the media, Kristen Clarke tried to sort of cover it up and backtrack.
And she said, quote, she's talking here to the Forward newspaper.
She goes, it was meant to express an absurd point of view, fighting one ridiculous, absurd theory with another ridiculous, absurd theory.
So, basically, Clark is implying that she was trying to fight against the bell curve and the idea of sort of white superiority, and she was satirically juxtaposing against it black supremacy.
This of course is an out-and-out brazen lie.
And I say that because I went back to the Harvard Crimson, I pulled up the original article, the original letter, read it in its entirety, and read all the student responses to it.
Because, of course, if this was satire, you would expect the Harvard students to say, ha ha ha, Nice one, Kristen Clark.
You really pulled off a very witty rejoinder.
But no, all of them, both the people who supported Kristen Clark and the people critical of her, assumed that she was speaking seriously.
Why? Because she obviously was.
Even the editors of the Harvard Crimson criticized her and criticized the fact that she had never disavowed these views.
Now... That is incident number one.
Not only an affirmation of black supremacy, but literally rooting it.
And by the way, Kristen Clark at the time was the president of the Black Student Association at Harvard, rooting it in a kind of the pseudoscience of so-called melanin theory.
In fact, melanin doesn't endow you with anything intellectually or morally or spiritually.
This is all sort of nonsense talk.
But nevertheless, there it is.
Now... Let me pivot to a second incident, equally telling.
This is at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
There are flyers all over the campus, which basically say, and I'm now quoting the flyer, It starts with ending Jewish privilege.
So, the flyer, if you look at it more closely, says things like this.
In other words, whites may be doing well, but Jews are doing even better.
And it goes on to say that white privilege is better understood at the very top as really being Jewish privilege.
And so the campaign against white supremacy really turns into a campaign against the Jews.
Why? Because the Jews are better educated and they are richer.
And they are embedded in apparently these powerful institutions of finance and the media.
I mean, age-old stereotypes about Jews that really can go back.
You see them right there in early Nazism.
You see them in pretty much every anti-Semitic society.
This idea that the Jews are hated because their success is attributed to the fact that they are so wicked.
At least this is the anti-Semitic trope.
So, on the one hand, we see with Kristen Clarke the anti-white notion, the notion that blacks are superior to whites.
Now we see in the University of Illinois and Chicago the idea that Jews are sort of the uber-whites.
I mean, think of how preposterous this is.
In reality, you have black Jews, you have brown Jews, you have white Jews, you have Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
It's coming from all different parts of the world, different, quote...
levels of melanin, and yet they're targeted in the same way.
And now I want to turn to a third group, Asian Americans, who have been brutalized and beaten all over the place in a number of major cities, almost inevitably, in the prominent cases that you see, by blacks.
Blacks who beat them over the head.
Blacks who robbed their stores.
Blacks who called them names.
Blacks who punched them in the subway.
So this is not just a generic anti-Asian trend.
It is violence and hatred toward Asian Americans from African Americans.
Now, here's Eugene Chung, who is a former NFL offensive lineman.
By the way, a guy of Korean descent, who interviewed for an NFL coaching job in the offseason.
I'm now quoting him. He goes, they said to me, well, you're not really a minority.
And Chung says, I was like, wait a minute, the last time I checked, when I looked in the mirror and brushed my teeth, I was a minority.
And according to Chung, after he asked the interviewer what's going on, they said, quote, you're not the right minority.
You're not the minority we're looking for.
So the basic idea here is that Chung is being discriminated against because he's Asian instead of being a quote approved minority.
Instead of being, I guess they were looking for Latinos or they were looking for blacks.
And so what you have here is very clearly the prejudice of the left.
The racism of the left.
The racism of the left that seems to be directed against whites.
Directed against Jews and directed against Asian Americans.
When I come back, I'm going to explain the roots of that racism, which has an outer layer and a deeper, more insidious inner layer.
I'm talking about a series of incidents that reveal the racism of the left, anti-Semitism against the Jews, attacks and discrimination against Korean Americans and more broadly against Asian Americans, and then a kind of anti-white Prejudice that is, by the way, now becoming the systematic racism of our time.
Why? Because it's embedded in our history books.
And think about it. This is prejudice directed against whites who didn't do the crimes that they're accused of.
The idea here is that the historical crimes of whites are somehow transmuted or passed down.
To white people today who are found guilty for things that supposedly their ancestors did.
I want to probe the deeper meaning of all this.
Now, first of all, it doesn't escape my notice that the groups being attacked, whites, Jews, Asian Americans are by and large successful groups.
And I think they're being attacked for that reason.
They're being attacked because they do well.
Now see, when a group does well, it is very infuriating to what you could call the man farthest down.
If somebody is down at the bottom, They have to explain to others and to themselves why they're at the bottom.
Now, in the old societies, they could easily say, well, I'm at the bottom because, you know, I got the short end of the stick.
I'm at the bottom because the guys at the top all knew somebody.
I'm at the bottom because, by and large, I, you know, I was born into the wrong caste or whatever.
But in this case, as society becomes more open, equal rights under the law, merit, admissions tests, by and large now it's much more difficult We're good to go.
The Jews and the Asian Americans for being dumb.
But what you can say is that they're corrupt.
They're invidious.
That their success is because they're so conspiratorial.
And so you notice that anti-Semitism has all of this idea that the Jews are basically conspiratorial.
They're diabolical. They don't deal with you straight.
And the same prejudice is now being transferred over to Asian Americans.
This is part of the roots of modern leftist racism.
A racism, as I say, that's sort of camouflaged as anti-racism.
Hey, we're going after the oppressor.
Wait a minute. First of all, the whites you're attacking aren't oppressors.
You may be right about their ancestors, but you're not right about them.
The Jews are not oppressors.
The Asian Americans aren't oppressors.
Who are they oppressing? You're just going after them because they're disproving your doctrine.
You're going after them because they are, despite prejudice, proving that they can succeed.
So they're refuting the leftist idea that, hey, if you're a minority, if you're a person of color, you can't move ahead in America and the Asians go, watch us, hold my beer.
And so that's part of it. Now, that's the outer layer, but not the deeper layer.
The deeper layer that concerns me is this, and that is that the white liberals, the whites on the left, the progressive whites, aren't just prejudiced against successful groups.
They also, in a sense, are racist against blacks and Latinos.
And to do this takes a little bit of a sort of act of putting ourselves in the place of those minorities, something I've tried hard to do.
What if I were a black guy or a Latino and I'm listening to what the left is saying?
What are they really saying to me?
Well, here's what they're saying to me.
They're saying to me, Dinesh, You can't succeed because you don't have it.
We cannot expect you to do much on your own.
In fact, we don't attribute to you any kind of moral agency at all.
The only way that you can succeed is if you depend on us.
In other words, what they're saying is that the black guy ultimately is saddled with a certain kind of inferiority.
That the black guy won't make it on his own.
That the black guy must turn to the white savior to assume responsibility for and deliver the black guy to the promised land.
Now, notice the close parallel between what the left is saying now to blacks and And to Latinos.
And what the old racists, who, by the way, were also Democrats, were saying.
Here's the difference.
The old Democrats used to say to blacks, you're inferior because you're inherently lesser.
You're inferior because of genes.
You're inferior because of biology.
You're naturally inferior.
What are the modern Democrats and the modern liberals saying?
They're saying to blacks, you're inferior because of history.
You're inferior because you are an historical victim.
But in both cases, notice that the old Democrats and the new Democrats agree on this premise of black inferiority.
And they also agree on the solution.
What is the solution? Depend on massa.
So in the slavery days, says Frederick Douglass, his master used to tell him, Frederick, never worry about the future.
Never worry about what you can do on your own.
Don't plan for anything.
Rely on us.
Your happiness, your salvation depends upon trusting the white man.
And that is exactly what the Democrats are saying today.
They're saying to blacks ultimately, and this is why they hate the conservative blacks.
Notice that they treat them with such derogatory venom.
They don't hesitate to call them the worst names in the world.
Why? Because the great sin of those blacks is to say, we can succeed.
We can do it. We have moral agency.
We don't need you.
And so these people, these whites, turn on them with a rage that has to be seen to be believed, that ultimately insults these people, treats them as less than human.
In other words, uses the tropes of the old racism against them.
You're stupid, you're ignorant, you're a sellout, you're a traitor.
All of this kind of language is used, but the bottom line is that the conservative blacks refuse to To accept the premise of black inferiority.
They refuse it.
And so there is a deep, built-in racism on the left.
It pervades pretty much everything they do.
And, as I say, it doesn't just affect the people.
It's not just directed against successful groups like Jews and Asian Americans and whites.
In the end, it also turns on the very people it's supposed to help, basically saying to them, you need us.
Because inferior people like you need superior people like us to save you.
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I am really thrilled to welcome to the podcast someone who's really been a hero of mine, Mayor Rudy Giuliani, somebody who first came to prominence for basically fixing the crime problem in New York, making New York a livable and a safe city.
And also Mayor Giuliani was sort of a hero, one of the heroes of 9-11.
I've been very disturbed to see some of the stuff that has been going on with the left Thank you.
Rudy, if I may call you that, thanks for joining me.
I'm a great admirer of yours for years, Dinesh.
Thank you.
You're so good and you're so honest.
And similarly, you've been defamed in so many ways, you don't even pay attention to it anymore.
The rationality of your argument overwhelms all of your critics.
Well, it seems that one of the things going on today, Rudy, if I may say so, is that the Biden administration, through the Justice Department, is continuing something that might have begun under Obama, weaponizing DOJ against political opponents.
It seems in some ways we're seeing that with some of the January 6th protesters, the kind of over-prosecution, solitary confinement, all the stuff that's going on.
Would you like to say a word about what's going on with those guys?
Yeah. I mean, maybe it's one of the great shocks to me because you mentioned my early background.
I mean, I began, after two years as a clerk, I began in the U.S. Attorney's Office immediately.
So I spent the most formative years of my career, 17 years in the Justice Department, at the lowest level, assisting U.S. Attorney, trying cases, and then third from the top, under Ronald Reagan.
So I know every level of the Justice Department.
Ironically, I came in as part of the post-Watergate cleanup.
That President Ford, Attorney General Levy, Deputy Attorney General Tyler did so brilliantly and get great credit for now, historically.
I mean, they started a lot of the processes like, you cannot communicate to the White House from the Justice Department except through the counsel's office.
So that would avoid a lot of people at the White House calling up the head of the criminal division and saying, well, tell that U.S. attorney to drop the case on congressman so-and-so or whatever.
And a lot of the leaks.
It wasn't perfect, but at least there was, I think, from Ford, even through Clinton.
Clinton tried. And part of his bad relationship with Louis Free is he tried.
But he didn't succeed.
Somewhere around Obama holder, they corrupted the whole place.
And, you know, we saw some of it, but since there was censorship even back then, there was a lot more pursuit of conservatives for political reasons than we had any reason to believe.
And the whole idea that it was accidental turns out now, in retrospect, to be absolutely wrong.
Holder was a clear political operative, not a lawyer.
And he brought cases and dropped cases in conjunction with the president.
When we took over, meaning when Trump took over, he changed to the top.
But he didn't gut out the Justice Department.
He didn't take them all out, which is what he should have done.
So basically, when they say, they'll go back now and they'll say, oh, the Trump Justice Department said.
The guy in the Trump Justice Department who said it may very well have been somebody who was part of the operations to frame him and had just been moved over to the Justice Department.
In fact, in one case, the guy they rely on, the guy who was doing as far as stuff, was the guy who framed Flynn.
So they say, oh, the independent Farrer team announced.
The independent Farrer team is run by the same guy who framed General Flynn, who has a history of hatred of Trump, you know, this crazy stuff.
The person who organized the first that I know of, used to the Ukrainians, to get dirty information on Trump and Manafort for the benefit of the Hillary He was a Biden representative to the National Security Council.
He's also the guy that was the deep throat for the phony condition of the conversation between Trump and the president.
The same guy. They don't want to reveal it because it's like Alpha and Omega.
Very interesting. I remember at one point, Rudy, Attorney General Barr going before the Democrats in Congress and saying, hey, listen, don't accuse me of going after any of the Democrats because you can't name a single Democrat that I and the Trump Justice Department have gone after.
And in some ways, what Barr is saying is that he was trying to run a, you may say, nonpartisan Justice Department.
And the question I want to ask is this.
If we run a nonpartisan Justice Department on our side, and the other side weaponizes it on their side, then they're going to be able to do it with impunity, because they know that we will never do to them what they're doing to us.
You know... That was really almost as bad a statement as saying you weaponized the Justice Department.
That statement is saying you're new to the Justice Department.
If a Justice Department is afraid to go after Democrats, that's just as an injustice as going after innocent men.
They're letting guilty men go afraid.
I mean, here's the best example you can possibly have that the Trump Justice Department was not the Trump Justice Department.
It was instead a hangover of the Obama-Biden Justice Department that terrorized everyone, ultimately even Bill Barr.
I don't think Bill Barr realized how bad it was, and at some point he did.
And we know there's a marked difference in Bill Barr somewhere about three months before the election, maybe four months.
And then during the election proceeding, to say there was no election fraud, somebody got the bill.
Because maybe you can say, I'm not sure it affects the election.
You have affidavits from very, very innocent American people.
You know, engineers, postal workers, people who just volunteered to be poll watchers.
Democrats who say they told me to change ballots.
They told me don't bother to look for a registration.
They told me to take a ballot that had no registration and assign it to a phony registration.
I mean, there are simple witnesses like that who clearly there was fraud in each one of these states.
The question is, how much?
Is it enough to overcome?
And in some cases, you'd almost by instinct know that there is because the margin's so close.
I mean, it's only 10,000 votes in a couple of places.
Take Arizona, for example.
Just to exercise a logic, what you're so good at.
Is there any way in the world that not a single illegal immigrant voted in Arizona?
Not a single one. Arizona is filled with illegal immigrants.
Arizona allows illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses.
So unless you do a deep dive, illegal immigrants can easily vote using the driver's license as their record.
And they do. And they've been doing it for 20 years.
Arizona had the goal, the governor, Ducey, had the goal to put in a statement of votes that doesn't take account of any illegal immigrants.
So I, as an intelligent, just a relatively intelligent human being, say, that's a phony vote.
It could be 5,000 phony.
It could be 10,000 phony.
It could be the expert that looked at it, who's an expert in immigration, said it's 38,000 phony.
That's an estimate. But they would never give us the ballots to find out.
Had they been willing to give us the voter list, which they are still suppressing, even with this going on, they're fighting it.
If they were willing to give us the voter list, I could have run that voter list against the Department of Motor Vehicle illegal immigrant list, and that alone would have yielded some illegals who voted.
If they voted in Maricopa County, then you take their votes out.
You take enough votes out of Maricopa County, then Trump wins Maricopa County because it was for Biden.
This is stuff that you do in every election.
All of a sudden, this became like treason if you did it in this election.
And the simple reality is the president has not had A fair hearing on a single one of his claims.
And for that, I have to believe something's going on.
Rudy, let's take a short pause, Rudy, because when we come back, I want to dive some more into this.
I also want to talk about the question of why Trump never seemed over the entire four years to control his own Justice Department, just as you said.
We'll be right back.
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Thank you very much.
Now, when Jeff Sessions was there in the beginning, no one could understand, I certainly couldn't, why he sort of went Winkle on us.
He kind of seemed to be removing himself from everything.
And so you had a Justice Department run by the underlings.
Then when Barr came in, it looked like there was going to be a shift toward a kind of more sort of MAGA philosophy, if you will, at least guiding the department.
But somehow toward the end, Barr himself went limp and even declared that there was no real evidence of any election irregularities, and that seemed to close the DOJ book on this matter.
Now, my question is this.
Trump is a business guy.
He's used to running things.
Why would he allow a Justice Department, such a critical agency, To not be under his executive legitimate oversight.
That is not only a very good question.
I think you put your finger on one of the two or three core problems.
Maybe even one of the core problems that caused him the presidency.
I would say that he did not realize the length and the depth of the deep state.
And I will also admit, Dinesh, I didn't either.
Nor do I think any of the people around him, even those who had his best interest at heart.
The president at the very beginning surrounded himself with people who had his best interest at heart, and then people who were on their own agenda, people from the RNC who really hated him.
And they just came in to enhance their career.
But he wasn't taking too much advice from them.
Nobody pushed him hard enough on how bad it was.
And by the time we did, it was too late.
And I hold myself somewhat responsible for it because there's nobody around him that should know the Justice Department better than I do.
But I didn't believe it was that bad, Denish.
I mean, I thought...
I know he asked me to be Attorney General.
There's no secret about this.
He asked me to be Attorney General.
I only wanted to be Secretary of State, largely because I had been in the Justice Department for 17 years.
I like new challenges.
Had I become the Secretary of State, I would have just by instinct gotten rid of the top 10% layer of Obama people that were there during Obama.
I do it by instinct. When I became mayor, I got rid of 4,000 people.
Who worked for the prior administration.
Half of them might have been very good people.
Every once in a while, I retained one who had like a special expertise.
I retained the health commissioner.
She was great. Margaret Hamburg.
But almost everybody went.
And I remember people saying, oh, the government won't run.
Government ran better in my first four weeks than when I put people back.
Right? Rudy, I mean, you're pointing something that I didn't know, which actually is almost an American tragedy.
You're saying that you could have been the Attorney General and all of this would have been avoided.
For personal reasons and also because I really had great confidence in Jeff.
I recommended Jeff.
I've known Jeff...
I selected Jeff Sessions for U.S. Attorney in the Reagan administration.
He was one of the U.S. attorneys.
You know, you don't work with all of them, but I was in charge of the U.S. attorneys.
He's the one that I would say was one of the top ten.
He was a very aggressive prosecutor.
He revealed Democrat and Republican corruption in his state.
And that's hard in Alabama.
Nobody reveals corruption up until him.
He went after voter fraud hurting blacks in Louisiana and whites.
And then on the campaign, he was the first to endorse Trump, which was virtually heroic in those days.
Trump was like, you know, the madman who was going to destroy the country.
The Senate was afraid of him.
He was the first. And then I worked for four months very, very closely with him.
We probably traveled three times a week together.
We wrote speeches together.
We have somewhat different views on immigration.
And I think we met each other pretty well in the middle.
That ended up giving him a much more coherent immigration policy than just build a wall.
He wanted to be Secretary of State also.
And when I explained to the president why I couldn't do it, which included a personal reason, he said, who do you think?
And at this point, he had taken out Christie.
He had decided that Christie's bridge gazing was too new for a job like Attorney General and that it hadn't all been explored yet.
He didn't feel he did anything wrong, but he felt like it would put a question there.
And we both agreed, gosh, we've been better than Jeff.
To think that Jeff wouldn't be appropriately loyal to this day is impossible for me.
Do you think, Rudy, let me ask you with regard to both Sessions and then Barr, is it just that they came to fear the deep state?
Is it that the deep state may have had something on them?
Of course I don't know.
I know Jeff better than Bill, and I know the department better than both of them.
And now I know the department really well, because I had to work with him for two years on the other side, and I could see how...
All these pockets of Trump derangement syndrome people.
Southern District of New York is filled.
Of course, now if you think about it, it makes sense, right?
They're all basically Ivy League graduates.
Southern District of New York is like the Stuyvesant High School of the U.S. Attorney.
Stuyvesant High School is our best high school.
All the best students go there.
And the big problem now is that 65% of them are Asian.
So they call it, the black racists call it white privilege.
No, no, it's yellow privilege, not white privilege.
You're saying it's the same gang, the Stuyvesant High School, Yale Law School, into the Justice Department.
It's the New York, Los Angeles liberal elite.
I imagine makes up 80% of that place.
So to them, Trump is Satan.
I mean, Jim Comey's daughter works there.
I mean, to her, I'm sure Trump is Satan.
He's basically, Trump says her father was the worst director of history, FBI, and he was a liar.
Now, Now let it come from somebody more objective.
I hired Jim Comey. I trained Jim Comey for three years.
He's a disgrace. He has totally disgraced the FBI, and he's left it dysfunctional.
And Ray's big sin is he hasn't done anything about it.
So I think if I knew two years later what I didn't know when I made the decision, Even if I couldn't do it for personal reasons, first of all, I might have tried to fix things up so I could do it.
But number two, if I couldn't do it, I would find him a tough guy who would go in and clean the place out.
And I know people who would do that.
We do. And we thought Jeff was one of them.
In the case of Barr, he made the same mistake.
I thought he for sure, he went and he brought a couple of his own people.
But they get this idea that, well, because this used to be true 30 years ago, if I keep the professionals, they'll just be professional.
But they're not professionals anymore.
It isn't like when I came in, the Ford administration, right after Watergate, relied deeply on the staff.
The staff was better than us.
I was out for only four years, and I came in with Reagan, the beginning of the Reagan administration.
So I had been out of the Justice Department for four years, and I virtually was doing my same job except one level above.
The same people were there.
The same people switched from Carter to Reagan.
Maybe every once in a while you'd get a traitor.
But by and large, the department was the department.
You could rely on it. And when somebody said something like, this is an opinion from the professionals, That had real weight.
Now the decision from the professionals, more likely than not, is a position from Trump-hating ideologues We're desperate to make sure that something like Trump never returns.
I mean, it's one it's one thing, Rudy, to have ideologues who are like at BuzzFeed or The Washington Post.
But you're talking about ideologues who have prosecutorial power.
It seems to me that, you know, I mean, a thug with a badge is far more dangerous than a thug on the street because this is a guy who has, you know, you may almost say armored divisions that he can deploy against his opponents.
And you're painting the frightening picture that this is now what has happened in America.
And to make it even worse, when they fool themselves into thinking they're not thugs, they actually think they're respectable people.
I mean, Comey thinks he's a respectable human being.
A respectable human being doesn't do what he did.
A respectable human being doesn't sign a false Pfizer application.
A respectable human being doesn't bring to the attention of the FISA court all the information that he has about the Steele dossier or about the fact that Hillary Clinton paid for it.
I mean, he definitely lied, but he certainly committed the sin of omission.
There's no such thing as the sin of omission with a FISA application because he should know.
I helped establish the FISA court.
FISA court was originally a regulatory court established by Attorney General Levy.
And then became statutory under Carter.
And I appointed the first three lawyers.
One of them was Joseph DeGeneva.
And the obligation that we preached constantly was, this is one of the few things in the criminal justice system that's ex parte.
You get to do it all by yourself.
So you have to divide yourself into prosecutor and defense lawyer, because those judges aren't going to get the other side unless they get them from you.
And if there's any evidence that's at all exculpatory or explains it, or there's any doubt about a witness, in an ordinary warrant, you may or may not have to put that in.
Because the other side will get to see it and challenge it.
But here, this is an adversary.
You're almost as if you're a judge now.
And for the first four or five years, I think people took that very, very seriously.
I certainly did. Most of the ones I did were Cold War Russian-Chinese.
I don't remember. There wasn't this other stuff around at the time.
And you can't imagine how many double, triple, quadruple agents there are.
Sometimes the affidavit on just one person will be four pages long.
He worked for us. He worked for them.
He came back to us. He worked for them.
He worked for us and them at the same time.
But you wanted the court to get all that.
Because we're doing something that I consider really horrendous.
We're breaking into somebody's house.
We're tapping their telephone.
Those kinds of things, if it happens too widely, we become a dictatorship.
Absolutely. Rudy, let's take a pause.
When we come back, I actually want to talk about two people who have been in the sights of these thugs with badges.
One of them is you, and the other is former President Trump.
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I'm back with Mayor Rudy Giuliani talking about the deep state and all kinds of thuggery.
Rudy, let's turn to something that happened to you recently, which is the feds show up both at your office and at your home and do this raid.
Let me start by asking you just to describe where you were and what were you thinking as this was going on?
I was sleeping.
It was six in the morning. I was sleeping.
And apparently they've been trying to get in for some time, but I'm a very deep sleeper, very deep, and finally heard it and went to the door and saw...
What appeared to be an office, an outdoor area.
There are two apartments on my floor, my apartment and then way across the hall, another apartment.
So these people filled the entire hall.
They say there was seven.
It looked to me at that time like 20.
But they were not wearing the FBI, you know, military stuff like they did for Cohen and Manafort and Stone, which I thought was terrible.
Immediately, I knew there were FBI agents.
I mean, I can identify an FBI agent in a crowd of a thousand, because I work with so many.
And I was G-Man of the Year, by the way, five years ago.
I was considered to be the person in the private sector who supported the FBI the most.
And I did. And I do, if they fix themselves up.
Well, they said they had a warrant to search my apartment.
I said, you what? I got a warrant to search your apartment.
I said, let me see your badge. He chose me his badge.
It's a legitimate badge, a legitimate guy.
I let him in. He comes in.
He's accompanied by my poor superintendent.
Poor guy's frightened to death.
I said, I didn't want to let them in, but I said, don't worry, don't worry.
And I dealt with it very professionally because I've conducted 500 raids myself.
And I said, look, I don't even want to look at it yet.
This thing is completely outrageous.
You're being asked to do something that's totally illegal, but you don't know it.
And I'm going to deal with you professionally if you deal with me professionally.
But I got to tell you, I'm suppressing a great deal of anger.
I said, let me see the warrant.
So I look at the warrant. The warrant wants all the electronics in my apartment between certain dates.
Basically, during the time I represented Trump.
It sort of cuts off after the active investigation of Trump ends.
And it begins almost at the time...
So they might as well have been asking me, just give me all the electronics you had while you were representing Trump.
They were interested in nothing else.
You'll see why in a minute.
So I said also, would you just do me a favor?
I know you've got to search.
If you want, I can help you find the things you want.
But just don't throw everything...
You know, like, let's not break everything.
And I have to say, now, they were gentlemen.
They were reluctant. They never went in so far as—they did apologize, but they never went in so far as to say, well, we don't believe it.
But I'm going to give you an indication of why I think they did.
So they took about two hours, two and a half— I spent that time calling my lawyer, talking to my lawyer, speculating what it was about, talking to the agent in charge.
And then all the items were put out on the dining room table.
And I thought there were about 10.
It turns out there was more, about 20.
I just didn't count them right, because I'm starting to get them back now.
And we went through them, and I told them what they were, because some of that was not mine.
One was my ex-wife's old computer, which when we traded houses...
We must have missed it. In fact, I don't think she wanted it.
It's a big, gigantic computer you would never use anymore.
But they took it. I told her that's my wife.
This is way before I represented Trump.
Then there are a couple of old computers of mine that would have nothing to do with Trump here.
I told them that. Then there was one all wrapped up of another person who I had worked with during the hard drive investigation.
It was his thing.
I had it wrapped up. And I said, that's not mine either.
It belongs to so-and-so.
We said, well, we'll give it back to you if it does right away.
And then we went through mine.
They took two active laptops, two old ones, several active computers, an old one.
They took my Kindles.
I don't know what you want.
You want to see what I read?
I'll take my Kindles, but you better get those back fast because I can't go to sleep at night without this thing.
It's like my toy animal.
He said, well, we'll try to get this back right away.
I said, I don't use it as an internet.
So I think they determined that they got that back to me quickly.
And then they took devices, you know, even adapters.
And all of a sudden, toward the end, there are these two big hard drives.
And they asked me, what about those?
Because I was telling me what they were.
I said, that's inactive, that's active, that's inactive.
Oh, I said, oh, those, you'd be interested in those.
Those are the hard drives.
They reproduce all of Hunter Biden's laptop.
I said, well, one has the whole thing, and the other has the dirty pictures of excise.
You know, the pornographic pictures, I said, just to jam a little bit.
And they looked at me, oh, What?
No, we don't want that. So I took the affidavit out and I said, guys, you know, I don't know, maybe you can put me in a different role at a moment as your lawyer.
He says, all electronics.
This would be defined as electronics.
I don't want to get in trouble like I'm not giving it to you.
They said, no, no, no, we'll make a note that we didn't take it.
I said, you don't want Hunter Biden's hard drive.
So they walk out, and I'm saying to myself, now they busted into my apartment on the theory that I'm so dishonest, right, that I destroy the evidence, because normally you would give a lawyer a subpoena.
They busted into my law office, forget my apartment, which I think is completely illegal, and should be suppressed for the good of the country, so it doesn't happen again.
You should not be able to bust into lawyers' offices unless a murder has taken place inside that office.
Otherwise, if we do this anymore, people aren't going to talk to us.
And what do I say to a client who comes to me and says, you know, Mayor Giuliani, I have a terrible problem.
I didn't do it, but there are several incriminating facts that point to it.
I don't want to tell anybody that because I don't want those to get out.
But I didn't do it. I swear I didn't do it.
I said, well, gee, how many times have I said this?
The only way I can help you is if you tell me the truth.
If you don't tell me the truth, I'm like a doctor who you didn't tell the symptoms to, and I diagnosed the wrong disease.
So then when you get screwed up and you're sitting in jail 20 years from now, that's why you're sitting in jail.
But if you tell me the truth, and I know all the problems, I can give you the right advice.
And I'm not going to be perfect, but we're going to get a lot closer to perfect.
And it's hard to get people to tell you things that they are many times embarrassed of, even when they're innocent people.
Maybe it's all happened because the guy has a girlfriend and he doesn't want people to know.
Maybe it was in the era in which somebody was gay.
They don't want people to know they were gay.
That's why they covered stuff up, not from the government.
They would tend to hold that back from me because then you're going to go around saying they're gay or they're adulterous.
So people have to trust their lawyers like you do.
Yourself. Basically, since people don't have knowledge of the law, our job is to give them knowledge of the law.
Otherwise, they have no rights.
Now, if somebody asked me that, I just heard they went into your law office.
How can you assure us?
I have to give them the honest answer.
I can't. I can't assure you that some crooked prosecutor is going to get some silly judge to raid my entire office.
Look, they have records of other clients of mine.
They don't even know who they are.
This is terrible. They also, you know, and this is completely shocking, and it will tell you that the Justice Department was politicized during Trump, went and took my iCloud account, without my knowledge, right at the height of the impeachment, just at a time in which they'd be inclined to spy on Trump's legal theory.
Right before the impeachment, about two months before, they went and got a secret warrant.
So get my entire iPod account.
And that one they dated from the day I represented Trump to the present day of the war.
So it's crystal clear they're after Trump stuff, not some alleged private crime that I committed all by myself.
How they are allowed to get away with that.
And then they decided themselves what's privileged or not.
They got a little group of prosecutors together, none of whom know anything about me, the case, Trump or anything else.
And they look at the document and they say, Privileged, not privileged, not privileged.
They would have no idea.
They have no idea that person's name up there is a client.
They have no idea that that person's name up there relates very, very strongly to the Trump defense.
And then they read it all.
And I have to tell you, very suspiciously, the House Impeachment Committee had a lot of information from my files that I wondered at the time how they got it.
And there's a common denominator here, that guy Goldman, who's a virulent Trump hater.
Just go look at the deleted emails for five years.
Trump is a traitor. This is before he got on the committee.
Trump is a traitor. Trump will destroy the country.
Well, he's a common denominator.
He worked there and he worked for the committee.
So that is so wrong.
I don't even know how to describe it.
I mean, the court should throw that out.
On the theory that you're never going to get away with this again.
You never get to do this to anybody else.
You cannot breach the attorney-client privilege.
Because when you do it in a public case, if this were a private case and nobody knew about it, it would be bad.
But as a public case, it affects everybody.
Everybody gets it in their head.
I can't talk to my lawyer.
Rudy, let's take a pause. When we come back, I want to do a concluding segment in which I explore the wider implications of this, not only the effort to sort of go after Trump, but the question of whether ordinary Americans can feel safe given what has happened to our justice system.
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I'm back for a concluding segment with Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
Rudy, I see that what began it seems as a civil investigation into Trump has now been dubbed a criminal investigation.
I mean, I'm struck by the kind of historically unprecedented nature of this.
I mean, obviously, no American president has been, as far as I know, indicted, sent to prison.
So it looks like with the left here, they are not content to have Trump out of office.
It would seem that they not only want to prevent him from running again, but they would love to see him behind bars.
And it looks like This is what they are trying to push for.
My question is, is my instinct about this right?
And second, are they actually going to be able to get away with it?
What will they actually go after him for?
Well, your instinct is absolutely right, as usual, Dinesh.
The attorney general candidate for New York ran on a single-issue platform.
Honestly, I don't think she'd deny it.
Get Trump. This is Letitia James, right?
The New York Attorney General.
Letitia James, who had been in the city government.
That kind of candidacy somehow should be illegal.
You should not be able to run for the office of prosecutor with the sole aim of getting one person, particularly since she couldn't say, oh, I'm going to get so-and-so because there's a lot of evidence that he murdered so-and-so.
No crime! So what this is and has been from the beginning is a civil case in search of a crime.
They go down one line, they don't get it.
Another line, they don't get it. Another line, they don't get it.
So now they're going to make it a criminal investigation.
They're going to open up his whole life.
They're going to see, is there anything we can misconstrue?
Or anything we can get somebody like Michael Cohen to lie about and charge him with a crime?
I believe, but I'm not involved in this particular defense, that this is worth a motion to dismiss on the grounds of excessive prosecutorial misconduct, complete trashing of the United States Constitution, and something the Supreme Court has to hear to make sure that prosecutors never do this in the future.
Prosecutors should not be permitted to search your whole life unless there's evidence, some evidence, that you committed some kind of crime.
Now, there's evidence he didn't commit a crime.
Let's take all those tax returns, right?
Except for the one in audit, which is one, right?
All of them have been settled with the United States government by the IRS. The IRS has a civil division, and the most criminal tax cases are referred by the civil division to the criminal division when they see evidence of fraud, not just mistake. In 25 years, not a single one has ever been referred.
You can't possibly say the IRS is on his side.
They ordered him. I mean, most people get ordered two, three times, even businessmen.
He gets ordered every year, and the audits go on for two years.
I mean, they're dying to find something.
Even with that...
There's never been a referral for criminal prosecution.
That should be dead. You shouldn't be able to go over it.
You investigated them for a year and a half, you came out with a civil result, and now you want to go over it again?
Ridiculous. Then I don't even know what else they're looking at.
You know, gee, will you come and tell me?
They might as well put out a sign.
Please come and tell us that Trump committed a crime because we want to put him in jail.
It is a disgraceful investigation to the state and even more disgraceful investigation of the criminal justice system.
And honestly, let me tell you the truth.
They're not going to find anything.
I've been through his life pretty carefully, and then I knew him on the other side as a mayor.
And people may find this hard to believe, but he was one of the most honest real estate developers in the city.
He was one of the few that didn't complain when I didn't give him a project.
He used to get angry, and he'd work harder on the next project.
To this day, he hasn't complained that the biggest project I gave out in the city, which is the Time Warner complex, The biggest, the most profitable, I gave to his competitors.
To his competitor. The other three people who were denied went crazy on me.
They're all my friends. They went crazy on me.
He kept his mouth shut.
He waited for the opening. And here's what his revenge was.
He had a place across the street and he put up a big sign and he said, you can see the park better from Trump Tower.
So he made money off that the right way.
So I knew him, and this is why I was so anxious to help him.
I knew him to be a guy that had a big reputation, said a lot of things that kind of spun people around.
But I knew he was a careful guy, ultimately, represented by the best lawyers, very careful.
They're going to have a hard time finding anything.
Could they get liars like Cohen and others to...
Yeah, but so far, Cohen's lies have all been proven almost by tape recordings and to be false.
You know, he said, I was never offered a job in the administration.
And there's a tape, him talking to Chris Cuomo two days later, saying he was offered chief of staff.
You know, there's a tape saying that he wasn't at a meeting.
And then there's about four or five witnesses who say he was at that meeting.
So, so far, he hasn't been a good liar.
But, you know, they're going to pursue him unless they find something.
And they'll take something on Don Jr.
or Eric or anybody they can get.
But I don't think it'll happen.
I think it'll be a terrible, terrible expense, terrible pain.
And the AG's office in New York is not terribly good.
Usually, if you take him to trial, you whip him, like Ken Langone did.
Well, one of the things that scares me, and maybe we can close on this, is during my own case, which involved exceeding the campaign finance law, as you know, in fact, by the way, I hear it, you can confirm if this is true, that Trump had asked you, hey, you think it's a good idea to pardon Dinesh D'Souza?
And I believe you said, yeah, I do.
So if that's the case, I want to thank you for that, because it has sort of given me my rights and my American dream back.
I don't... If I told you the answer, I would be violating the attorney-client privilege.
But I will say I publicly argued for your part.
I mean, on television shows and along with a number of other people who I felt were subjected to purely political prosecutions, things that should be settled civilly and always have been, similar to what I'm being investigated for.
Foreign Agent Registration Act, not registering, one time For one Ukrainian, where I have proof that I referred his case to Vicky Tenzing, and she's under investigation merely because the poor thing took the case from me.
So, yeah, he did want me to represent him.
I didn't think it would violate the Farrell law.
I give up cases that are too close to the line, Denise.
I've always been that way.
That's why I was trained as a lawyer.
I was trained by a very honorable judge and a very strict U.S. attorney's office.
Nothing like this out of control office now.
And since I've been under the gun, under attack, I go even further.
And I said, well, nobody will understand.
So, Vicky, you take it.
And I never did. I never did it.
And for two years, I've been wanting to tell them that.
And instead of my coming in and telling them that and showing them some of the documents I have, they decide to go look for other things.
And then they smash into my apartment on the theory that I'm going to destroy evidence.
And here, I'm the guy whose lawyer has been calling them for four, no, not four months, for a year and a half, asking to meet.
I'll give you my documents.
Also, I've given almost all these documents to the State Department.
I've given it to them. They just don't know it.
I gave it to the U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh.
There's no evidence in the world that I would destroy documents or that Vicky Tenzing would destroy documents.
So that's a lie.
You know, that's the Comey lie.
Put a lie in the affidavit and fool the judge.
And the agents that interviewed me didn't think I would destroy documents because they took my word for things.
Exactly. This is a terrible case and I can beat it because, look, I've been doing it for 50 years.
I have the training to know how to handle it and deal with it.
But this is what they did to Papadopoulos and to Carter Page and to bankrupted people.
This is what they did to many White House staffers.
When I was representing Trump, half the time I would have White House staffers crying to me about how they were mistreated.
They were treated like criminals.
They had to spend $20,000 on a lawyer.
This is a tyranny.
I remember McCarthyism vaguely.
I read about it a lot because I remembered it vaguely.
And I would say without any doubt, this is much worse.
What's happening now makes the McCarthy period look rather limited.
Wow. Rudy, very sobering, and I know we've only scratched the surface, but I want to thank you for coming on.
Maybe we'll do it again and dive more into all these issues, but I really appreciate the time, and this has been eye-opening, and in some ways a little bit, well, more than a little scary.
It is. It is frightening. I mean, it frightens me, and I don't get frightened too easily.
Thanks, Rudy. Take care. With all the stuff going on both in the country and in the world, I'm looking back at the movie Trump Card, which I made last year, and I can't believe how eerily prophetic that film has turned out to be.
It's based on my book, United States of Socialism, and it looks like we are sort of on this dismal path in that direction.
Here's a little clip from the movie that gives you a feel of what the film sounds like.
Listen. What is the fundamentalist and jihadi agenda for America?
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Exactly. And I think it's more dangerous than the so-called Russian collusion.
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It's time for our mailbox, and hey, I'd love to hear questions from you, audio or video.
Please send them to questiondinesh at gmail.com, and I'll get to as many as I can.
Let's go to today's question.
Listen. Yes, this is John from Atlanta.
I'm a professor and surgeon at Emory University.
Thank you, Dinesh, for a podcast that truly cuts through the noise to tell the truth about current events, religion, arts, and entertainment.
By the way, your daughter's book is outstanding and should be considered the field reference manual for the pro-life movement.
My question is about the theme in movies and in life whereby an unlikely individual does great things or the call of the hero.
You mentioned how Michael Corleone only entered the family business when there was no other choice.
Donald Trump also reluctantly answered the call when there were no other adequate candidates.
The same could be said of you.
Have you seen this theme in other works of literature or in the arts and who is the next unlikely hero in American politics?
Thank you and keep up the great work.
Wow! I mean, what a question.
I love this stuff, and I'm really thrilled to be doing a podcast with this kind of quality of listeners.
So, keep them coming.
Now, as I think to literature or to philosophy, this notion of the reluctant figure is very important.
In fact, go right all the way back to Plato's Republic.
Plato talks about the Republic as a kind of utopia, which is to say a perfectly just society, but one that will, you may say, never come into being.
It may be an ideal, but it's not an ideal that's going to be realized.
Now why is that?
The reason is this, that the philosopher who Plato says should be ruling, the philosopher is the wisest man and therefore has, if you will, the title deeds to rule society, but the philosopher, says Plato, doesn't want to rule.
The philosopher, qua philosopher, as a philosopher, is a lover of wisdom.
That's what the term philosophy means.
And so the philosopher wants contemplation, wants wisdom, doesn't want to rule the city.
And second, not only does the philosopher, who is sort of the best guy to rule, not want to rule, the people don't want him to rule either.
They don't give their consent to the philosopher ruling.
Why? Because they don't recognize the wisdom of the philosopher.
And so Plato goes, we have a mismatch.
We want philosophers to rule cities, and we want people to want philosophers to rule cities, but neither party wants to do the deal.
And so says Plato, the best we can get in practice is not Philosopher's ruling cities, but rather a kind of middleman.
Somebody who is a sort of gentleman or a soldier who is tutored by the philosopher, who is in fact not reluctant, but is willing to rule.
I mean, probably the best example I can think of of that would be somebody like Alexander the Great.
Why? Because Alexander the Great was tutored by Aristotle.
So you have the philosopher who is preparing Alexander the Great to be, in fact, the ruler.
My mind flashes now to fast flash this forward a little bit to the Hollywood and Mel Gibson's movie The Patriot.
Remember that in The Patriot, Mel Gibson doesn't initially want to fight in the American Revolution.
He doesn't want to lead. He wants to basically be left alone.
He wants to be a farmer, look after his family, look after his homestead.
It's only when the British come and burn his stuff down and attack what he has that he gets motivated and sort of stagnated.
Stirred to action. And for me, this is actually kind of a metaphor for...
Well, it's a metaphor for America in general.
Think of how reluctant America was, for example, to get into World War II. We thought it was none of our business.
Leave it alone. It takes a lot of prodding and a lot of evil and a lot of attacks.
Ultimately, it was Pearl Harbor that sort of awakened this sleeping giant into action.
Now... Let me turn to Trump and to today.
I don't know who, if you will, the next sort of reluctant leader is.
I'm not sure. But what I do know is that there are out there today many conservatives, many Republicans, who are kind of used to living their life.
They're used to kind of going about their ordinary business. They don't want to jump into politics.
They don't want to be in the forefront.
They don't want to devote themselves to it. Why? Because they think that other guys can do that.
The Republican temperament is, let me make my business successful. Let me devote my time to my family. But I think what's happening is that the aggression of the left, the tyranny of the left, the intimidation of the left, is making a lot of reluctant people go enough is enough.
Putting a lot of conservatives and Republicans into exactly the same position that Mel Gibson was, so they say, I have to do more.
I've got to create more.
I've got to get more involved.
I've got to take over my school board.
I've got to... Participate in this.
I've got to lead in this way.
And I think this is a very good thing.
Why? Because in some ways, the reluctant leader is the leader that you can, is the honest leader, is the person who's doing it for the right reason, is not an opportunist, who's someone who'd rather do something else.
But when the occasion demands, when the country needs, when there is an urgency to be met, proves to be up to the challenge.
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