Inconvenient truths about the Boulder mass shooting?
Has Kristi Noem lost her backbone?
And Marjorie Taylor Greene on Badass Politics?
This is the Dinesh D'Souza podcast.
The times are crazy in a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
There's been another horrific mass shooting, this one in Boulder, coming on the heels of a mass shooting in Atlanta, in the massage parlors of Atlanta.
And sure enough, the left is out to cook up a narrative.
Now, remarkably, these shootings don't fit the left's narrative.
But the left's narrative right now, at this moment, is Joe Biden acting with a sense of uncharacteristic sort of urgency.
He's normally such a kind of sleepy, slow-pokey, bumbling type of guy, but he's like, oh, I'm going to take a rapid action.
Action on what? Action on guns.
Listen....future and to urge my colleagues in the House and Senate to act.
We can ban assault weapons in high-capacity magazines.
So, wow, I guess it was the gun that did it.
Now, it's kind of funny because when you see these horrific killings, and we've seen, unfortunately, too many of them, it's not always the weapon that's blamed.
Think of it. In 9-11, there were 3,000 people killed.
Did you see anyone go, let's outlaw box cutters?
Let's outlaw airplanes, because after all, the deadly weapon at 9-11 was, in fact, the airplane itself.
Now, people say, well, Dinesh, yeah, we did try to restrict box cutters on airplanes.
But the main screening after 9-11 was really simple.
Let's prevent fanatics and psychos.
From having access to airplanes.
So the logical consequence here or the logical implication here in the aftermath of Atlanta and the aftermath of Boulder is let's prevent dangerous fanatics and psychotics from Let's put those procedures in place,
but not prevent law-abiding people from gaining access to guns any more than law-abiding people should be prevented from buying a box cutter or boarding an airplane.
Now, the reason that the left is talking about the gun Is they really can't talk about the shooter or the motive for the shooting because it completely ruins their narrative.
So here's their narrative. Whenever a Muslim guy is involved in a shooting, the left knows only two words to say.
One is white supremacy and the other is Islamophobia.
So it's got to be right supremacy that did it, and it's got to be Islamophobia that is the problem.
But in this case, we have a problem.
Why? Because the shooter was Muslim, and seemingly a radical Muslim.
I'm going to go into that. And the victims, all ten of them, were white.
Now let's think about it.
In the Atlanta shooting, six of the eight victims were Asian American.
And the immediate implication was, hate crime!
This is a hate crime against Asian Americans, even though...
The shooter in that case, a white guy, said, I'm a sex addict.
I hate these massage parlors.
I'm out to get rid of them.
And so his motive appeared to be some kind of psychotic response to a sex addiction, nothing to do with...
And not all the victims were Asian American.
In this case, Boulder, all the victims are white.
And yet, no mention of any animus to word whites that might have motivated this attack.
Suddenly, the hate crime language has completely disappeared.
Now, let's turn to the shooter himself.
He's Ahmad Aliwi al-Issa.
Interestingly, when the Boulder police chief was talking about him, she kind of compressed his name.
She didn't say his full name.
Listen. The suspect was taken into custody at 3.28 p.m.
He was transported to the hospital for treatment, now in stable condition.
This suspect has been identified as Ahmad Alyssa, 21 of Arvada.
So, you notice the very...
I'm not saying this is a woman who's trying to put out a false narrative.
Not at all. But I'm saying there's that natural trepidation.
It's kind of a trepidation you see when even a woman who's raped is scared to say, the guy who did it is black.
Or in this case, the guy has a Muslim name, draw your own conclusions.
No, she sort of had to edit his name out of that natural fear that she'd somehow be called a racist.
So here you've got a head cop in the wake of a mass shooting, and what she's scared about is what they will say about her.
She's an Islamophobe.
And sure enough, almost comically, there are efforts to blame this on Islamophobia.
Here's a little snippet from a CNN article.
That says this.
The brother, this is the brother of Ahmad Aliwi Al-Issa, told CNN that in high school, bullies made fun of Alyssa's name and for being a Muslim, and that may have contributed to him becoming antisocial.
So here's the supposed motive.
Islamophobia made him sort of antisocial.
Now, omitted from the CNN article are all these very telling facts.
This guy... Al-Issa is a radical Muslim.
From his Facebook, and by the way, Facebook quickly took his profile down.
Seemingly, we don't want to draw attention to, but these things are revealing because on his Facebook you see, A, the guy absolutely hates Trump.
In fact, he calls Trump a racist.
He rails about Islamophobia.
This is the mass shooter railing about Islamophobia.
Well, What exactly is Islamophobia?
Is Islamophobia the belief that somewhere in our society there are some Muslim fanatics and crazies around who are capable of killing large numbers of innocent people?
Hello? Far from refuting Islamophobia, this guy is vindicating it because he is proving that the suspicion that you've got these crazies among us who are motivated by Islam is correct.
Is correct. Now this is a guy who's from Syria.
He's a Syrian immigrant.
He's very involved in the Syrian situation.
He blames Trump, he blames Putin, he blames Assad.
He's on the radical Muslim side of the Syrian Civil War.
All of this omitted from not only the CNN article, but much of the media coverage.
Why?
Because they don't want to talk about the shooter's motives.
The shooter was not a Trump guy, he was an anti-Trump guy.
Turns out that the shooter liked to read certain sites that he was constantly quoting.
Guess what they are? The Intercept, the left-wing political site.
The Washington Post!
NPR! In other words, the shooter is getting his information from the political left in America, and that information evidently is having a radicalizing effect on him.
Bottom line, this is a very telling mass shooting because it doesn't fit the narrative.
For this reason, one possibility is the left will just try to stop talking about it.
And the second possibility, perhaps more likely, is they don't want to talk about who did it.
They don't want to talk about motive.
Had it been a white guy, it would be automatically assumed.
The motive is white supremacy.
Yeah, the white supremacy. White man did it.
Whereas here, I'm looking at article after article after article on the shooting, and I noticed that nowhere does it use the word Muslim.
Never in the headline.
Man charged. Man charged.
A man did it. Not one article goes, Muslim man charged.
So what I'm pointing attention to here is the discrepancy in when the adjective makes its way into the headline and when it doesn't.
We're dealing here not just with what happened, a tragedy, but the deeply cynical, dishonest manipulation of what happened by some dirty, rotten scoundrels.
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Has Governor Kristi Noem lost her backbone?
Kristi Noem says that she won't sign a bill in South Dakota that would ban trans women, biological men, from participating in collegiate women's sports.
The South Dakota legislature decisively, overwhelmingly passed the bill in a Republican state, goes to the governor, she seems sympathetic to it, and then, boom, she sends it back.
No, I won't sign it.
Now, first of all, this appears to me to be political suicide.
And by suicide, I mean in terms of Christine Ohm's ability to be a leader on the national stage.
She was so perfectly poised to do that, that this kind of behavior does require some investigation and some explanation.
As to why she would do this.
Why she would engage in this familiar, tiresome Republican tap dance.
It's Jekyll and Hyde-ism.
I would always call it Nikki Haley-ism.
Remember when Nikki Haley was like...
We can't follow Trump.
He took us down the wrong road.
We were sold out by him.
And then five minutes later, Trump gave an amazing speech.
Trump has an amazing record.
So this kind of schizophrenia, this political back and forth, this two steps forward, one step back, I mean, I don't know if these people realize how sick of it we are, how onto it we are, how unforgiving of it we have become.
Kristi Noem is the person here in charge.
She could have done something about it.
Now, apparently what convinced her was she met with the Chamber of Commerce in South Dakota.
And they said to her, Oh, this is not a good idea.
This will hurt the state economically.
All these basketball associations will turn against us.
Some of them may boycott us.
They may not want to play their games in our state.
And Kristi Noem was like, Oh, okay.
Well, you know what? That does it.
You know, I'm not going to sign it.
And so this is a sellout, I think, of a very bad kind.
Now, Kristi Noem is trying to salvage it, just like Nikki Haley, with a pathetic kind of comeback.
And here's a pathetic comeback.
Today, we're announcing a coalition of athletes, leaders, and so on to sign a petition called DefendTitle9Now.com.
And I'm going to sort of do a Nancy Pelosi on it and, like, tear it up.
You know why? Because this is symbolic uselessness.
There's nothing. It does absolutely nothing.
Sign a petition, really?
Sign a petition and send you money?
Is that what you want? You know, many years ago, I was one of the popes.
It might have been John Paul II who said, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and I think about a serious problem and I say to myself, I better tell the pope about it.
And he goes, then I remember, whoa, I'm the Pope.
In other words, I'm in a position to do something about it.
So here's Kristi Noem.
When she's in a position to do something about it, outlaw men, biological men from participating in women's sports.
It's easy. There's nothing tough about this.
The science is on our side.
The morality is on our side.
She... Quakes.
She jumps out of the trench.
She deserts. And then she attempts to come back with this useless petition, which is almost an insult to our intelligence by saying, okay, if enough of us sign a petition, we could get a movement going.
And if we get a movement going, we might be able to get a law going.
And if we get a law going, we might get the governor to sign it.
You are the governor, Kristi Noem.
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It's really fun for me to welcome back to the podcast Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Right before we went on, Marjorie was joking with me because Debbie was kind of powdering my nose.
And Marjorie was saying, hey, you know, you've got some makeup on.
Maybe I should put some on.
And I was saying, well, this is the only time, Marjorie, that I wear makeup.
I'm not planning to run in the women's 100-meter dash.
Yeah. Marjorie, welcome to the program.
Great to have you, as always.
Thank you so much, Dinesh.
And I'm very glad that you're going to stay out of women's sports.
So thank you for that.
I'm quite a sprinter when I need to be, so you gotta be glad for that.
But let me ask you, psychologically, you've been now in D.C. for a couple of months.
You've taken, I think, more heat than most.
You've seen the kind of swamp and the cesspool that D.C. is.
Sort of psychologically, how are you holding up?
How are you doing? Well, this has been an unbelievable two months.
I was just talking with my staff this morning.
I am the most attacked member of Congress in such a short time as a freshman member, and a woman, to add that to it.
I've done nothing wrong.
They can't even file a report on me in the Ethics Committee, but yet the media has attacked me unbelievably.
The Democrats have Kicked me off of committees for no reason.
And now, you know, we had them introduce a resolution to have me expelled.
Again, for no reason.
I have committed no crime.
I've done nothing wrong as a member of Congress and even as a candidate.
Some people are just still offended for some things on social media years ago that I publicly apologized about and to the whole world.
But I refuse to back down and stop standing firm in who I am and in my conservative values.
And I continue to work hard to hold people accountable in the swamp.
And I think that's what offends them most.
What do you make of this craziness of Democrats?
I mean, they're in the majority party trying to kick out of Congress an elected representative of the opposing party, not to mention the fact that you've got people like Eric Swalwell, you've got people like Ilhan Omar, and these are people who have had far more unsavory associations than you have, and evidently, not only is it fine to have them in Congress, but they often are members of influential committees.
Oh, absolutely. You nailed the point, and that's what I've been saying, Dinesh.
We have Eric Swalwell, who had a sexual relationship with a Chinese spy, sits on the intel committee.
The Chinese spy even put interns in his office and helped him raise money, but yet he still sits on the powerful intel committee.
And just last week, Nancy Pelosi protected him when Republicans made a move to have him kicked off of his committee's We also have our sitting Vice President Kamala Harris, who shared the Minnesota Freedom Fund bail bond link, asked for people to donate money to bail out criminals who had just rioted in Minnesota, burning cities, looting stores, attacking police officers, federal building, and innocent people.
This is our Vice President.
Don't forget Congresswoman Ilhan Omar did the same thing.
The list goes on and on.
We could go back to Maxine Waters calling for Trump supporters to be attacked wherever you can find them in the streets and the words of violence and just flat out support for insurrectionists, right?
Antifa and BLM riots that this nation had to endure over the past year.
Democrats are the hypocrites and they never change their colors.
They continue to lie and attack people that they fear the most and clearly they're afraid of me.
We're hearing a lot these days about gun control in the wake of the Atlanta mass shooting and now the Boulder mass shooting.
I think what's interesting about it is that you have these mass shootings and they're horrific and they do kill a lot of people.
Ten people, for example, in the Boulder shooting.
But here I have in my hand some data on Chicago.
This was actually last year, 2020.
Chicago reports...
700 murders so far in 2020.
The article was December 1, so that wasn't even the total for the full year.
So think about it. 700 murders is the equivalent of 70 Boulder mass shootings.
And so, is it a peculiarity of human nature here that when something is normalized, we think it's okay?
Whereas, when you have the single mass shooting, it's anomalous and people go, oh, let's get a hold of the guns.
They don't want to get a hold of all the guns that the gang members have in Chicago on the streets.
And we're not just talking about Chicago.
It's the same story in St.
Louis. St. Louis actually has the highest gun violence rate in the country.
Chicago has more in numbers, but that's because Chicago's a bigger city, but it's the same story in Baltimore.
It's the same story all over the place.
What do you make of this sort of, what seems to me, rather selective indignation and demands for gun control when there should be a broader attention to social problems that go largely ignored?
Oh, Dinesh, this is the most important topic to be talking about, and our mainstream media does not want to talk about the very true facts that you just stated.
You see, Democrats want gun control, and they use any narrative to get it Every single murder is horrible.
Every single murder is wrong.
Every single murder is against the law.
But the Democrats pick and choose the murders that they want to use to pass the policies and the policies they want is strict gun control.
And they are going for it hard and you're going to see it happen maybe within the next few weeks and definitely over the next month.
You're going to see it in Congress and you're going to see executive orders coming straight out of Joe Biden's White House.
You see, we know that illegal guns are a problem, and most of those murders you talked about in cities like Chicago happen with illegal guns.
Gun control of legal gun owners does nothing.
Legal gun owners are the safest gun owners in the country, and they truly protect themselves, their families, and their businesses.
Gun control laws are a complete violation of our Second Amendment.
I'll be fighting them with everything that I have alongside my strong Republican colleagues that truly believe and support the Second Amendment because we cannot allow Democrats to take this away from legal gun owners.
That's who they're punishing with these bans on assault weapons, putting gun owners on lists.
Red flag laws and the list goes on and on.
You see out in Boulder, they already had red flag laws in place.
They already had mental health checks in place.
But yet this man who we've now found out is a Muslim extremist with strong views, radical views that way, went out and committed this mass shooting and all of a sudden the media's narrative has died down.
The shooting in Atlanta needs to be talked about.
This man admitted he had a sex addiction and he's clearly mentally ill and did a horrible, horrible thing by attacking these salons and places in some attempt to end his disgusting sex addiction.
Those are the real stories, but the media wants it to be Asian hate crimes.
They want it to be white men going out and committing mass shootings just so they can pass gun control.
But again, that's a lying narrative and we need to stick to the truth and those are the facts that you laid out very, very well in the beginning.
You mentioned a phrase that caught my eye and that is strong Republicans.
The need for strong Republicans to obstruct, to block, to stop bad things from coming down the pike.
Now, recently in South Dakota, they passed a fairly stringent and, I think, very sensible law that would prevent biological males from competing in women's sports.
Christine Ohm, who appeared to be sympathetic to the law, seems to have met with the Chamber of Commerce, began to worry about, like, what will the NBA boycott South Dakota?
Will we lose money in this transaction?
What are the costs if we take a stance?
And sort of, kind of went invertebrate on us on this.
And Kristi Noem is not a bad person.
She's on our side.
What I want to get at is and have you talk about, do you feel this kind of tug of both sides and this need to be strong?
Because it seems like there's something in the Republican temperament, not in you, but in others, that buckles when the pressure begins to mount up or when you begin to get creating pressures from the other side or from, in this case, the Chamber of Commerce.
Why would Kristi Noem have lost her backbone on this one?
I don't know. That is such a major mistake because she had so much support leading into this.
She's going to wipe out everything good she's done by not protecting girls and women's sports.
Chrissy Noem needs to do the right thing and keep the biological men out of women's private places like bathrooms, girls sports, women's prisons, rape Crisis centers, homeless shelters, biological men don't belong there.
The key issue is strong Republicans, period.
When Republicans stand strong on our values and we don't back down and water down our messages and water down our bills, we win and we fire up our base and we bring more voters out to vote for us.
This is how you fight back against the radical left But being politically correct and trying so hard to work across the aisle, even though the other side of the aisle is socialist, communist, or flat-out evil, destroying gender and God's creation and wanting to put biological men in places they don't belong that puts women and girls in danger.
You see, that's where Republicans are failing Republican voters and failing America.
And so, you know, some people might not like Maybe my direct language or President Trump's tweets, but that's what truth is.
Truth is a sword and sometimes it hurts and cuts, but truth is still truth and we need to stand firm in it.
And that's what Republicans need to do.
My last question, Marjorie, is this.
I mean, what I find baffling about this is that this is not Susan Collins, who's sort of in a kind of in a democratic state and feels the pressure to kind of hug the middle.
This is a state, South Dakota, where Trump won by 25 points.
Kristi Noam is safely ensconced.
So it's not political pressure in that sense that made her do it.
It seems it's more just this Republican tendency to want to sort of pull to the middle when there couldn't be a bigger time and more important time for us to hold firm, particularly on an issue like this, which I really don't even see the two sides of the issue.
As you say, it's kind of morally clear on the one side and kind of pure evil on the other.
Absolutely, Dinesh. And this is what we need right now.
We need Republicans that will not back down.
And we are where we are because we've had too many Republicans give in.
President Trump's first two years is the perfect example of why we lost the House in 2018.
Republicans in Congress did not pursue President Trump's agenda.
They didn't repeal Obamacare.
They didn't fund and build the wall.
They didn't defund sanctuary cities.
And they funded Planned Parenthood.
And that's a failure of Republican principles and a failure to the Republican voters that they promised they would do those things.
That's why we lost the House in 2018.
And when Republicans don't stand firm and fight back, this is why we're $30 trillion in debt and we're losing our country.
We can't be the Republican Party that just plays Mr.
Nice Guy all the time. We need to be the Republican Party that defends America, puts America first, and protects our freedoms.
Hey, Marjorie, instead of expelling you, I think I'd like to clone you.
Thanks for coming on the podcast.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks so much, Dinesh, and I look forward to talking to you soon.
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I don't quite know how Jen Psaki, the press secretary for Biden, will go down in history, but I don't think that the word truth-teller is going to be attached to her name.
Now, in fairness, Jen Psaki is able to engage in these obfuscations, prevarications, outright lies, because she relies on a courtier press.
Almost like the jugglers and jesters in the French court who are subservient.
They don't really challenge her.
Their job ultimately is to perpetuate the lie.
But the most recent lie has to do with the Biden administration releasing Immigrants, migrants, illegals really, who come across the border, release them into the United States without them even having court dates.
This has been going on in the Rio Grande Valley, and yet Jen Psaki says it's not.
Listen. Now that Border Patrol agents in the Rio Grande Valley are letting adult migrants go without even issuing notices to appear, is the immigration policy just becoming more of, like, the honor system?
That is an inaccurate depiction of what's happening at the borders.
Now, the only problem with this is that Jan Psaki is the one who is providing misinformation.
She's not accurate, to use her own words.
And there have been multiple media reports, notably one in Fox News, but one in NBC News.
I'm going to focus on the NBC one, so this can't be attributed to some conservative misinformation.
Here is NBC talking about...
Amid Surge, Border Agents in Rio Grande Valley Are Releasing Migrants Without Court Dates.
What's the proof?
Number one, NBC News has an internal document from the Border Patrol in which they are authorized to do this, to release adult migrants and families from custody before they have been given dates to appear in court.
The move, and now we're quoting the official document, is intended to mitigate operational challenges, including risks to national security, during significant surges of illegal migration as currently exists in the Rio Grande Valley.
And very specifically, the document goes on to note that there are some 5,000 migrants who have crossed over, and the facility can only hold 175.
So let him go!
No court date!
Go and contact us.
We'll contact you. And that's only if you even leave an address, if you even have an address, if you even know where you're going.
Then NBC News, not content with having the official document, interviews the migrants themselves.
And what do they say? On Monday morning, some immigrants who spoke on condition of anonymity said that they had, in fact, been released without court dates.
They said that before they were released, they were asked by U.S. border agents for contact information, which they provided, and were given documents with to be determined court dates.
So the bottom line of it is that NBC News here has, in fact, this is not an anonymous source told another anonymous source who told us.
They have the documents.
They quote from the documents.
They interview the migrants.
So in this case, the reports are clearly true.
The migrants are, in fact, being released without court dates.
This is a break with precedent.
This is not just a catch and release and show up at your court date.
They don't even have a court date.
And the Biden administration policy is complete chaos.
I think deep down, Biden himself probably knows this.
Certainly Jen Psaki knows it.
But she's not, in a sense, being accurate about it.
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I've talked a good deal on this podcast about the events of January 6th, and now I'm following as closely as I can the aftermath of those events.
And the more I dive into this, the more disturbed I become.
Recently on 60 Minutes, a federal prosecutor who led the investigation into this dude named Michael Sherwin, I made a comment about the January 6th arrestees,
and he specifically singled out the Proud Boys, being prosecuted under a statute called obstruction of a federal proceeding that would take their normal misdemeanor offenses, being in the wrong place, entering a federal building, trespassing, taking down a painting, But elevate those types of charges to felony charges that could carry up to 20 years in prison.
So the government is clearly out to destroy these people's lives, is treating them like these are very dangerous terrorists, seditionists, coup plotters.
Here's Michael Sherwin talking about it.
Listen. The most significant charge is obstruction.
That's a 20-year felony. They breached the Capitol with the intent, the goal to obstruct official proceedings, the count, the electoral college count.
Now, you should watch the whole interview.
The arrogance of this guy is literally unbelievable.
And the brute insensitivity to what he is doing, the impact of it on people's lives, what they actually did to fashion penalties proportionate to the offenses, none of this is even going on.
It's really a horror story unfolding before our eyes.
Let me go to the other side of the aisle and tell the story from the point of view of the wife of one of these alleged Proud Boys.
This is a guy named Christopher Kuhn.
This guy is a veteran, a decorated veteran.
Who is in fact, his wife says, not a member of the Proud Boys.
He knows some of the Proud Boys, but he's not a member of the group.
He wanted to protect the Trump supporters from Antifa.
He knew that Antifa has been in force in D.C., so he said, I'm going to go protect our team, so to speak.
That's why he was in D.C. He did enter the Capitol.
Now, he entered the Capitol, but he was not armed.
He didn't hurt anybody.
And yet, he is facing very serious charges.
Precisely this notion, this charge of obstructing a federal proceeding.
20 years in prison, my friend!
Now, I want to focus here on his arrest, because I'm going to tell it from his wife's point of view.
He was... We're good to go.
And then she goes, the FBI instructed Chris to come outside immediately.
A four-year-old was awakened from the chaos.
A house was completely surrounded by armed FBI and law enforcement, armored tactical vehicles, police vehicles.
For a second, I didn't realize there were about 20 FBI SWAT team members with semi-automatic rifles pointed at my son.
And she was distracted by the bright red lasers pointed at our faces, chests, and various points on my four-year-old son and I. Then she goes on to say, Her neighbors come over.
They take her to the hospital.
She's pregnant. She loses the baby, so she has a miscarriage over the sort of horrific scene created by the government deliberately in order, I think, to inflict terror on this family.
And this is how our government operates in the United States of America today.
This is the kind of practice that Merrick Garland, the bow-tied attorney general, is proudly testifying about before the Congress.
This is what the Biden administration is unleashing on Trump supporters.
Again, it's not my position that no one should be punished or that nothing wrong was done.
Laws were broken.
Punishments need to be doled out.
But they need to be punishments that are measured against the offenses themselves.
Instead of what appears to me to be cooked-up conspiracy theories from the left, bogus accusations, heavy-handed use of force, terrifying people who are not part of the problem...
And at the end, trying to send, I think, a message to all of us that we better submit and succumb and cower in terror because they are now our overlords.
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We've been living through for a year now this global pandemic of COVID.
And it's, as we get a little perspective on it, I was thinking about how are these kinds of events which really turn the world upside down or turn America upside down.
How are they viewed in history?
In other words, have there been precedents for this kind of thing?
And did people in the past who faced similar situations, or at least somewhat analogous situations, react in the same way?
I've got a fairly massive collection of great books that I like to read and dive into.
And I picked up Daniel Defoe's classic.
It's called A Journal of the Plague Year.
Now, Daniel Defoe, the British author, Author, very popular author, is known mainly for his work Robinson Crusoe.
He's also known for Maul Flanders and some other works.
But the Journal of the Plague Year is very eye-opening.
The plague year was 1665, a massive plague ravaging the city of London.
By the way, these plagues had been Showing up in Europe, they dated back to the 14th century when you had the Black Plague sweeping through Europe.
These plagues were brought by the Mongols from Asia.
They killed a third of the European population.
And they seemed to sort of swell and then wane from time to time.
The plague in London, for example, was horrible in 1665.
It was the last of a series of plagues.
And then somewhat magically or mysteriously, it just sort of went away.
And London didn't really have more of those types of plagues after that.
Now, interestingly, the plagues began to appear elsewhere.
So there were plagues in other parts of England.
There was a terrible plague subsequently in Marseille, in France.
And so the plagues didn't really disappear until the end of the 18th century.
Now, Daniel Defoe was actually a young kid at the time of the plague.
He was only six or seven years old.
So he lived through the plague in that sense.
But he wrote about it much later.
In fact, almost half a century later.
And he wrote about it using, it seems, the journal of one of his own uncles.
A guy named H.F. Foe.
Daniel Defoe, by the way, his real name was Daniel Foe.
But in order to be cool...
He went for Defoe.
He kind of extended his name.
Kind of makes me wonder one of my ancestors to be cool took Sousa and went for D'Souza, which is part of what makes my name so cool.
Anyway, Defoe, talking about the plague, he is very vivid in his descriptions about it.
I want to focus on when he's talking about a man who lost his wife and all his kids.
And the wife and kids, their bodies were thrown into a cart and brought for disposal.
And he talks about the person, quote, distempered in mind with his wife and several of his children in the cart, and he followed them in an agony and excess of sorrow.
But then Defoe says even though the man was mourning, it was, quote, a kind of masculine grief.
The man would sort of not give way to tears.
He was holding his tears back.
But then Defoe writes, No sooner was the cart turned around and the body shot into the pit promiscuously, which was a surprise to him.
And no sooner did he see the sight that he cried out aloud, unable to contain himself.
He went backward two or three steps and fell down in a swoon.
So think of how horrific this is.
The card opens and the guy sees his wife and kids just literally come flying out into the pit.
Boom, no burial, nothing.
And he just can't believe it and he's overwhelmed.
Now, the one striking fact that I note in reading Defoe and picking up not just what he says about this...
But what others say about it is the unmistakable religious sensibility that you see on all sides.
I mean, it's not all positive.
You have people who blame the plague on God and they denounce God for doing this to them.
And then you've got others who pray to God for deliverance.
And when the plague finally leaves, it disappears.
Here's Defoe himself. He goes,"...nothing but the immediate finger of God, nothing but omnipotent power could have done it.
The contagion despised all medicine, death raged in every corner, and had it gone on as it did a few weeks more, would have cleared the town of all and everything that had a soul." And then he goes,
in the very moment when we might say that vain was the help of man, man couldn't do anything about it, I say in that very moment it pleased God with the most agreeable surprise to cause the fury of it to abate.
So what you have here in Defoe is not just that kind of vivid description of the situation.
I'm not aware, at least up to now, of any comparable account of COVID that gives us that human sense of it with any literary value.
I'm not sure anyone 50 years from now will look back and read anything written now about COVID and go, wow, this was a work of literature produced under these circumstances.
At least I'm not aware of any.
And the other thing is the quality of kind of philosophical reflection, moral discussion, theological examination, well, it seems non-existent.
It seems maybe it exists in a few pockets of Christian and Jewish commentary, but by and large in the mainstream culture, I don't see it at all.
It shows us the way in which our society, Western civilization, has really become secularized.
And we tend to look at these problems not through the lens of transcendence, not through the idea of a divine creator who presides over the universe.
We don't even ask those kinds of questions.
We occupy today mostly secular space, which somehow seems thinner, more parched.
And philosophically and morally, less interesting.
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In an era of COVID-19, of coronavirus, it might be worth asking a strange question.
Why do we have viruses?
Why do we need viruses?
Why would God make a virus?
This may seem like a startling question.
In fact, I think many people would instinctively answer, well, Dinesh, this is absolutely ridiculous.
We don't.
We have viruses, but we don't need them.
The world would be better off without them.
It would be just great if the viruses disappeared from the face of the planet.
Why God did it if there is a God?
Who knows? But it seems to be kind of a divine mistake.
It almost seems to support the cause of atheism that God does not care about the world or about humans because why would he allow, not to mention create, these terrible...
So, viruses, these living creatures or quasi-living creatures, these parasites that seem to occupy not just human but also animal, the bodies of living things feed off of them and destroy them, threaten them, weaken them, make them sick.
Why would God do something like that?
And I want to answer this question, but answer it kind of in a secular way.
Answer it not by offering some biblical explanation for calamity, not some recompense for sin, not some discussion of the fall, but I'm actually going to turn to a field.
A scientific field.
You want to talk about listening to the science?
Well, you can listen to the science for the next few minutes.
This field is called viral ecology.
Viral ecology. It's a study of the role, the necessary role, that viruses play in not only preserving the planet, the biodiversity of the planet, but preserving all life, including human life.
The simple truth, and it's not something we hear talked about much, is that human beings depend on viruses.
Now, how is this possible?
Let me begin actually with a very good article that the BBC put out, which I'm going to focus on here to simplify.
It's called, Why the World Needs Viruses to Function.
So there it is. And the subtitle is, if all viruses disappeared, the world would be very different, but not for the better.
The article actually quotes a virologist at the National Autonomous University of Mexico.
This is Susan Lopez-Sharaton.
She goes, we live in a balance, in a perfect equilibrium.
She's talking about the ecological balance.
And she goes, I think we'd be done, done, without viruses.
And another scientist is quoted saying pretty much the same thing.
He says, first of all, this is Curtis Suttle, a virologist at the University of British Columbia.
He goes, almost all viruses out there are not pathogenic to things we care about.
And he goes on to say that viruses are necessary, necessary to human life.
He goes, when populations become very abundant, he's talking now about animal populations, he goes, viruses tend to replicate very rapidly and knock that population down, creating space for everything else to live.
So this is part of the balance of nature, that successful populations can wipe out all the others.
And viruses help to keep, you may say, the balance.
Viruses are also critical to what happens inside the ocean.
Without viruses, I'm now quoting from a virologist named Goldberg.
He goes, what scientists know for sure is that without viruses, life in the planet as we know it would cease to exist.
Now, how is this possible?
Well, viruses infect bacteria.
And the ocean is full of bacteria.
Viruses regulate the bacterial population inside the ocean.
And by doing that, they regulate the entire ecosystem of the planet.
Now, in the ocean, almost 90% of all living material is microbial.
And these microbes produce about half of all the oxygen on the planet.
We breathe in oxygen.
We need oxygen. The viruses enable this process of oxygen creation to occur.
The viruses kill about 20% of all the oceanic microbes and about 50% of all oceanic bacteria.
By culling microbes, viruses ensure that oxygen-producing plankton have enough nutrients to undertake high rates of photosynthesis Ultimately sustaining much of the life on Earth.
So, the broader point I want to make is this.
It's not the scientific detail that's crucial here.
It's the idea that the Earth is a kind of interconnected ecosystem, a sort of masterpiece of God's creation, but deeply in which the different parts, even parts that seem to us to be anomalous, hurricanes, Plate tectonics!
Do we really need earthquakes? Actually, we do.
We need hurricanes and we need plate tectonics.
And by the way, without plate tectonics, the Earth wouldn't be separated from the water.
Remember that two-thirds of our planet, more than two-thirds of our planet, is water.
It's not a question we think about every day, but why is the water separated from the earth?
Why doesn't the water swallow the earth and cover it to the height of several feet, if not several meters?
Why not? Why doesn't that happen?
Plate tectonics is part of the reason that doesn't happen.
But the bottom line is, the more you begin to study the architecture of God's creation, The more you realize that these dispensable parts of it, the things we don't like, the things that threaten us, and the things that make us sick, and in some cases the things that imperil our lives, are still necessary, not only for the planet's survival, but our own.
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It's time for our mailbox, our question of the day.
By the way, if you want to send in a question, send it in, preferably audio or video, to questiondinesh at gmail.com.
Here's our new one. Listen.
This is Marty from Omaha.
I am a conservative, Republican, retired police officer.
And my question for you today is...
How would you suggest that I talk to my relatives who are extremely liberal and still remain friends with them and not have them be PO'd at what I'm saying?
Now, I've already seen and heard your speak up, expose it, and ridicule it.
But if I do that with a relative, they probably are not going to talk to me for the rest of my life.
So there's my question, Dinesh.
And by the way, I love, love, love your podcast.
Marty, I'm going to raise a question you may have not thought about before.
Do I have too many relatives?
Now, this may seem like a very odd thing to say because, after all, we choose our friends, but we don't really choose our relatives.
But there are some relatives you really don't want to have to deal with.
And here is where I think ridicule comes in very handy.
I'm talking about sort of ridicule, not in the sense of being unpleasant or insulting or rude.
I'm talking about sort of Socratic ridicule, in which you ask them questions that they have no idea about, they don't want the answer to.
Or you ask them questions in which they know the answers, but the answers are lethally damaging to their worldview.
Now, I agree this kind of interrogation is going to sort of upset them, and they're going to stop talking to you.
But this is good news, because these are very annoying people, and you might want to have nothing to do with them.
So this is your goal to sort of separate yourself off from some of these questions.
Now, I, of course, know that we all have, you have, I have, Debbie has, well-meaning relatives who are good people, who are nice guys.
How to deal with them?
This is more tricky. And again, I recommend the Socratic approach, but employed a little differently, more gently and more, you may say, in the educational mode.
The goal here is not to deride them, not to insult them, but to get them to think in a different way.
Here's kind of a classic example.
A relative of mine, this was actually some time ago, he goes, a very nice guy, he goes, Dinesh, it is highly ironic and very disturbing that at a time when crime rates are going down, more people in America are incarcerated than ever.
And my response was basically to him in a very general way.
I go, hey, has it occurred to you that it's possible that crime rates are going down because the criminals are incarcerated?
So this is just a gentle Socratic way of turning the tables on him.
It's not ironic. It actually makes perfect sense that when you lock the bad guys up, crime rates go down.
And this is a way to get someone to go, huh, I never thought of it that way.
And this is how you don't break the bond of collegiality.