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Sept. 27, 2023 - Doug Collins Podcast
46:07
The goal is to win!
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You want to listen to a podcast?
By who?
Georgia GOP Congressman Doug Collins.
How is it?
The greatest thing I have ever heard in my whole life.
I could not believe my ears.
In this house, wherever the rules are disregarded, chaos and mob rule.
It has been said today, where is bravery?
I'll tell you where bravery is found and courage is found.
It's found in this minority who has lived through the last year of nothing but rules being broken, people being put down, questions not being answered, and this majority say, be damned with anything else.
We're going to impeach and do whatever we want to do.
Why?
Because we won an election.
I guarantee you, one day you'll be back in the minority, and it ain't going to be that fun.
Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast.
Today we've got a great episode.
Sean Spicer will be joining us.
Sean's a good friend of the program.
Had him on before to talk world politics.
We've got a big debate coming up this week.
In fact, today is the debate in California.
We're going to talk presidential politics.
Also a little bit of media.
We're going to have anything.
Sean's got a new program out.
We want you to know more about that and get all the details.
But still a lot going on.
And one of the things we talked about on Monday, we talked about the current situation in Congress.
It looks like it's getting worse, not better.
We'll see how it goes.
The Senate now seems to be like they're wanting just to play with Speaker McCarthy.
They're sending over a clean CR at this point.
At least that's the look of it at this point, which has no hope of being put on the floor.
I mean, McCarthy just doesn't have the votes for it.
Anyway, we're still on shutdown alert here.
We'll see how it all turns out.
But before we ever get there, we've got a presidential race to come.
Really, the unknowns are going to be debating.
Donald Trump's not going to be going.
He'll be in Detroit tonight.
But we'll see how it all works out.
But Sean's going to give us the inside scoop.
And we're looking forward to having him.
So just right after the break, Sean Spicer on the Doug Collins Podcast.
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Hey, everybody.
We're back back.
As I promised, Sean Spicer on the other side of the break.
And here he is, Sean, the man.
He's here.
Thanks for having me.
Good to see you.
Good to see you again, buddy.
It's been a while.
It has been.
I mean, we see you all over and we, you know, we communicate a little bit and run across each other, but hadn't had you back on the show, but glad to have you with us today.
Tell us, catch us up a little bit on what's going on.
Yeah.
So a couple of weeks ago, we launched the Sean Spicer show.
It was months in the making of figuring out a good, um, uh, a good show name.
And we just settled on the Sean Spicer show.
So, uh, that tells you some of the creative, you know, right.
I know.
Well, I followed your lead.
Um, And so we're on every night at 6 o'clock on the 1st.
It's a network that's on DirecTV.
It features Bill O'Reilly.
But most importantly, it's a podcast.
So it's Apple Podcasts.
If people are interested, go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Sean Spicer Show.
You can also go to YouTube, Sean M. Spicer.
We drop a new episode every night at 6. And, you know, I've been in politics.
You and I have talked about this for years.
I did my first race in 1993. When the Republicans were taking back over the House for the first time under Newt Gingrich and the Contract for America.
And so for me, politics is sort of like what a lot of you Georgia folks think of football.
I grew up at a Division III school, so I don't really have a football team.
So my Saturdays were spent knocking doors and doing campaign plans.
So I love talking about politics and vote counts and who's up and who's down, debates, caucuses, primaries, conventions.
But more importantly, the nuances, like how the rules operate.
Because I think too often on the Republican side, people who are complaining about the system, just frankly, and it's not their own fault because it's confusing, and in some cases intentionally so.
But I want people to understand how the game works.
And so that's kind of why I put the show together.
I started working in Congress slightly thereafter.
So same kind of thing, where to me, You know, part of this is to have a conversation with folks who are so interested in what's going on in politics in Washington, etc.
these days.
Yeah, well, I think it's so true.
And let's hit on that for just a minute, because I'm still speaking.
I know you do as well.
And I was in a meeting, a big rally, this summit, some Faith and Freedom folks and everybody this weekend.
And you see people, and there's a frustration level among voters.
I think you and I have talked about this before.
I believe part of it is because we have had Elected officials on our side, you know, I call it, you know, basically lying, but I mean, they're just not telling the truth with the voters on issues and things, and they're putting expectations up here.
When reality is here, you may get to here, but if you're telling everybody it's going to be right here, I mean, it's like telling your kids you're going to take them to Walt Disney World, and you take them to the ice cream shop around the corner.
There's going to be a disappointment factor there.
Yeah, it's taking ice cream.
Yeah, still get ice cream, but you know, hey, I wanted to see Minnie.
But you know what?
I think it's a great example that you're giving because right now I think there's a lot of people in Washington that are making false promises.
Look, the Democrats control the White House and the Senate.
If you think that they're going to give us the stuff that they have been resistant to so far, you're nuts.
I think we should get the best deal we can.
And that doesn't mean don't fight for it and Don't fight for more.
But to your point, there's a lot of people promising things that will never happen.
And we end up looking like we failed when, in fact, a lot of what we got was a win.
I mean, I had Jim Jordan on my show the other day, and he was talking about the fact that this is the first time in his memory that we've ever reduced, through the deal that they got on the debt ceiling, the size of government.
And now we're sort of threatening that deal because we want more.
And I'm all for more.
Don't get me wrong.
I want less government, less spending.
But at some point, it's like we're threatening the deal that actually moved us forward, and we're going after the folks who bought off on that deal, where I was like, wait a second.
That was a good deal.
It wasn't everything.
If we had a Republican majority in everything in the White House, I'd say that we could have done a heck of a lot more, but we don't.
Yeah, and I think what you're seeing there is, and here's the part of it, I think some of this has been planned since January.
I just do.
And not trying to discourage motives or anything else, but after what Kevin had to go through to become speaker and everything, it just sort of built to where we are now.
And it's just, you know, in that debt ceiling deal, the week after, you know, basically you had people saying, well, this is terrible and I'm not going to vote for anything else.
But here's the part, and I was up in D.C. this past week, and I talked about this with some members who said, we just need to fight.
I said, I get your fight.
But my problem is, some of you are now coming in with your best and final offer and leaving yourself no room to negotiate.
You're saying, you know, it's like going on to a car dealer's lot, and you know when you walk on that lot, you only have, and I'll just use an example, I only have $20,000 to spend.
You're not gonna walk up to the dealer and say, I've got $20,000.
You know, this is all I can spend.
You know, show me a car.
Well, that guy's gonna find a $15,000 car that he could have sold somebody else and sell it to you for 20,000.
You know, this is the part I've always struggled with.
Why does it seem like we have to go in Yeah, I'll take it back a step though, but why are we waiting to 10 days out from the government shutting down when this is a fight that we could have had in June?
Why aren't we selling the American people?
I've had members of Congress on the show for the last several weeks.
And I've said two things.
One, what do you want?
What is your goal?
And they'll say, well, we don't know yet.
I'm like, you need to be fighting for something.
And one of the things that I think we need to be fighting for right now is the agreement on border security, because that is something that every American should be for.
But secondly, when we talk about spending, And I've reminded members of this.
Back in 94, Newt had a bunch of examples.
They weren't huge, but they were illustrative of the waste that Washington has.
And part of what I've tried to say to them is, you need the American people to be on your side and realize that there's a massive amount of government spending that's wasteful, duplicative.
Outdated.
And if you can go to them and say, we want to cut this much money because programs like this, but right now we're having this nebulous conversation about 1%, 2% cuts, whatever.
No one knows what that means because it doesn't mean anything.
You come up to me and say, I want to cut 1%.
I'm like, of what?
What does that mean?
How does that impact my life?
If you come to them and say, hey, there's a program from 1827 that collects taxes on You know, used windshield wipers from buggies.
You'd be like, great, because that's stupid.
It doesn't exist anymore.
We don't drive buggies.
So I can buy in on that.
I realize that that's not going to impact my life.
It makes you sound like you have a plan and that you're making sense.
I just, I don't think Republicans right now get How to fight and win.
They don't have a plan.
They don't articulate it well.
And then they get down to this end.
And it's funny because everyone goes, well, how do you know we're going to lose?
I know we're going to lose because we have no message.
We have no strategy.
We have no endgame.
And the Biden administration is out there saying that we're going to threaten the lives of all these active duty service members.
We're going to put air traffic control training in jeopardy and all this.
And the average person is going to say, well, that sounds bad.
And the Republicans aren't telling me what they're fighting for.
So I'm with them.
Yeah.
Well, and also there's not been any discussion this week about running through a short-term bill that actually funds military pay or anything like that, which, you know, again, we did in 2013. I go back, I had a member, I was with a member last night who was with, in Congress with me during 2013 shutdown.
It was my first year there.
And if you ever had a message, like you just said, Sean, I think it's what you said, just parsing it out a couple of things that was really important.
And I've mentioned this to several members.
If they were so inept, not inept, but so concerned about spending and doing 12 appropriations bills, then why were you not voting against rules in May and June?
I'll give you the debt soon, maybe wait until June.
Voting against rules, then shutting the floor down and saying, Kay Granger, Kevin McCarthy, put these bills on the floor and then promise to get 217 votes.
That's another issue.
But the other issue last night, I was talking to this member who was, you know, he was very involved in this time.
You had Obamacare, because Obamacare was getting ready to start up in that October.
You had a, what would have been a message people could understand, like you said, they don't have that this time.
I mean...
You talk to five different members.
When you lose two rules in a week and you have different people voting against the rule for different reasons, you've got a problem.
Yeah, but the first point that you led with is the key.
We're acting like somehow this snuck up on us.
These 12 appropriations bills come up every year.
The fiscal year starts October 1. Where were they putting the plan and the message together back in May and June and learning to sell this?
Like I said, there's a reason we lose these battles is because the other side knows that they can go to the American people and say, you know, this isn't going to happen.
This isn't going to happen.
You can't get a passport.
You can't do this.
All the functions of government and we sound like we're morons and we can't do this.
I used to give a good or I thought was a good example is that Elected officials are like the cable man.
And I'll tell you what I mean by that so you don't get insulted.
If you have cable and your cable goes out and you call the cable company and say, my cable's out and they send out a repair person.
When the guy gets there, if they start saying, well, here's the problem, the coaxial is frayed, you generally go, I don't really care.
I give you whatever, 150 bucks.
I pay you for cable, fix it.
And if you're not going to do it, I don't want a bunch of excuses.
And elected officials, what happens is on the Republican side, we come back and we're explained.
We're like, I elected you.
I voted for you because you said that you were going to get all these things done.
You were going to vote for this.
You were going to get the budget in order.
You're going to make government work better.
And when you come back to me and tell me that here's 10 excuses why it didn't happen, to me, that's like me paying for my cable and you not getting it back on.
You're just giving me a bunch of excuses that make me feel like I wasted my vote.
Well, I'm going to take it a step further because I'm not offended by it.
I mean, I've actually lived it because I've watched it.
Here's the problem with it.
We don't walk in.
The cable guy doesn't walk in and say, I'm going to fix everything and you're going to have 4K high def when I leave.
And then they get to the end and they don't have anything.
There's no way they can put, they don't even have high def in their truck.
Okay?
You know, that's the bigger problem to me.
I've used this example before, Sean, in speaking to Republican groups especially.
And I've gotten to where now, and a lot of times part of my speech, I say, I'm sorry up front, because in the next few minutes, I'm going to offend you.
And, you know, because you just don't want to hear it.
We made the promise it was going to be done away with.
We had no plan and no idea of how to do that because Obama's in the White House.
It just wasn't going to happen.
Although we said it, we lied, basically.
We lied.
And then over the next six years up until 2016, 2017, we gutted Obamacare with eight different proposals that he actually signed That basically gutted the internal workings of it.
It still screwed up everything because we couldn't get to the best.
But yet, it really became more of a paper target than it would have been.
But yet, I can't go to Republican groups and say, look, we got these things that actually did this and took away this and took away taxpayer dollars and fundraisers.
And they said, because all you heard was, I'm doing away with Obamacare.
They don't see the fact that we actually did something because we set the expectations again.
Yeah.
Well, I had Nick Freitas on my show.
He's a delegate from Virginia.
And he's got almost a million followers on Instagram.
And he has these very simple messages about parenting and being a good citizen and being a good person.
And I was like, and I said to him, like, that's what we need more in the party is just simple messages about what we're doing and why.
But you're right, we keep setting up these expectations about what can be done and what can't be done and how we're going to achieve something.
And they're unattainable.
And then people get disappointed.
And as I said, I feel like the deal they got on the debt ceiling wasn't like the greatest thing in the world by any means.
But it was a nice step forward in considering the fact that we barely have a majority in the House.
We don't have a majority in the Senate.
We don't own the White House.
To make progress, that just shows that our one-third beat their two-thirds.
That's not a bad record to have.
Right.
And yet we're sitting around going, oh, we suck and we didn't do enough and dah, dah, dah, dah.
I think part of the problem too, to be honest with you, you mentioned getting to 217, 218 to pass these votes, depending on how many members are present.
I think we have a handful of members that don't want to win.
I think that they get more clicks and more $5 contributions when they talk about how crappy the system is.
And going along doesn't get you the online social media attention that being the loud, boisterous opposition does.
Yeah, look, here's the thing.
I think you and I both can agree.
So if anybody listens to this podcast, you know, just take a chill pill, especially because Sean and Doug don't want to fight.
Bull crap.
We've been there.
Okay, that's just bull.
But I want to win.
I'm sick of the message.
I want to win and I want to help them win.
But, you know, you just made a comment there that really, from my perspective, is this, which is harder, actually building a house or actually tearing one down?
It's much easier to tear one down, you know, than it is to build one.
And I think that's where we got to get.
But, you know, and now you've got the Senate, which, by the way, this is the part nobody understands.
I did a podcast on our podcast Monday, Sean, as I sort of broke this down as to why this is a problematic this week and why we're looking at a shutdown.
Because one of the things is, is there's 20 to 30 Republicans in the Senate that will vote for anything that Schumer and McConnell put up there, which completely undercuts anything you're doing in the House.
So they're willing to send it over and you're undercut.
This is not talked about.
And now we're hearing rumors as we take this that Schumer is going to send a clean CR. You just got to know that Chuck Schumer is sitting over there toying with Kevin McCarthy saying, here, Kevin, here's you a clean CR. We're not even adding anything with Ukraine in it.
Now, Ukraine money is in there, but we're not going to add any extra and anything else.
And knowing, knowing Kevin can't put that on the floor.
Right.
Right.
But yeah, they're playing chess.
We're playing checkers.
The reality is, though, you know, the funny thing is, if you passed a CR for the year, which is not what they want to do and not how they govern, if you pass it at last year's level, it's a cut.
So again, we're not actually thinking strategically about how to handle this because we could actually be cutting government.
And the Democrats, we would have the upper hand on them because we'd say, great, we're going to keep the government funding.
But when you keep it funding at last year's level, you're actually reducing the rate of growth, thereby cutting government.
But no one's against thinking strategically.
I was reading a book the other day that had a great Sun Tzu quote, and I'll butcher it just so that for the Sun Tzu fanatics out there.
But basically it says, tactics without strategy is just noise.
And that's exactly what's happening, is that we're doing things.
We're now talking about passing 12 bills and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that won't go anywhere.
We know that, right?
We know the Senate's not going to take them up, definitely not before Saturday night, if ever, because they've already passed their version.
And this gets back to what I keep asking members.
What is your goal?
What do you want?
And they'll say, well, we're working on it.
I'm like, we're five days from a shutdown, and if you can't tell me what you want, that's a problem.
Yep.
Well, that's what I told somebody the other day, and I said this, that I said, okay, I get it.
I mean, look, I would have went ahead with the CR from last week.
Okay, fine, Chip, y'all want to put HHS, HR2 on there?
You want to cut some support?
Fine, send it over.
I'm okay with that.
But my question is, is when the Senate gets that piece of legislation, And they do what we know they will do.
And I had a member actually look at me the other day, Sean.
I wish I was making this up.
I had a member actually look at me and say, well, they're going to have to accept some of that.
I said, no, they're really not.
And they're going to send it back to you.
And my question is, what do you do when they send it back?
That's the part that you're talking about, what I'm talking about.
What is the acceptable after that that you will then be willing to go home and say, look, we offered this, they came back with this, then we went to this, and we can actually get an agreement.
I don't see that right now.
Right, but again, here's the problem.
There's not a goal.
So my point is, if that's a prayer and a wish, they'll probably have to do that.
The Senate, to your point, that's why I'm saying they're playing chess.
Schumer keeps figuring out, how am I going to force their hand?
But they've got the Republicans on their side over there, which is ridiculous, but it's a fact.
So what is the plan?
And that's the thing, is they keep thinking, well, they'll probably have to do that.
That's not a strategy.
And they're just like, we think they'll do that.
And there's no indication that any of these guys in the Senate have any tolerance for doing this.
So why aren't we, on the Republican side, jamming them and saying, here's the bill.
It secures the border, it does the following, and we can sell this to the American people.
Now you go out, checkmate.
And try to tell people that you don't, you won't be for this.
But we, I don't, like I said, it's an easy sell to me, considering the images that we see in places like Eagle Pass, Texas, to go out and say, this is what we're for.
This is what everyone should be able to agree to on a bipartisan basis in terms of securing our border and securing our country.
And dare the Senate and the Democrats to vote against it.
Instead, we're like, well, what if we do this and then they do that?
And that's not, like, we should be You know, jamming them and being on offense.
Talk about, you know, you mentioned not wanting to fight.
I want to fight.
I want to win, though, to your point.
Right.
And you win when you have a strategy that says, here's how I'm going to win.
Well, and that's what I'm saying.
Send that, you know, send that CR from last week over, you know, that we got voted down.
Send it over.
Okay.
We'll see what they do.
More than likely, you know, you and I both know they're going...
Schumer could care less about the border.
He's proven that for the last two years.
But let's see what they do with it.
And then we can actually say, okay, I know they may do this, and here's where we come back at it.
I would rather see us go back and forth, being sending bills back across, going into a shutdown, than simply sitting here saying, we get nothing.
I remember in 13, by the way, here's a note for all of you.
It'll be a shutdown of the last, you know, worst, best case scenario, we go maybe Saturday night, Sunday morning, there's a shutdown for a few hours.
Worst case scenario, it'll be the middle of October.
And here's a little insight for all of you who don't know.
The House is paid once a month.
The military is paid once a month.
The Senate staffers are paid twice a month.
Circle October 15th is the date that senators will get very antsy about what's going on.
Happened in 13, it'll happen again, about making sure that their folks get paid.
So this is what we're dealing with as we go along here.
Well, I'll tell you what, the funny thing is, I was a Senate staffer in 95, and the credit union gave us these little loans that we could take out But I actually think that's interesting because I don't see a short-term...
I don't know.
See, the thing that's so fascinating to me is all these people get paid a ton of money, lobbyists, and I just think that every piece of conventional wisdom has been thrown out.
I kind of look at this and go, because they don't care anymore.
To your point, it takes a forcing mechanism like I didn't get paid.
Suddenly everyone goes, oh, well, hell.
I think the military thing is going to be interesting because that's the X factor that wasn't present last time.
And it's never been dealt with.
That DOD approach bill always gets passed, and so you can't claim that the, quote, troops aren't getting paid.
This time, that's different.
I can't believe, on the Republican side, again, going back to strategy, I would at least get that across the finish line.
Even if you stripped out and had a straight-up bill that said...
The armed forces of the United States will be paid and kept that narrower than DOD approves.
But just so that you could, as a Republican, go home and say in good conscience that you took care of them.
But Border Patrol, all these people, and I think to your point, I mean, what members make about $183,000 a year, something like that?
Yeah, about $172,000.
Okay.
So...
It's easy to say, and I know that some of these guys, you keep two houses and all this stuff, but for an enlisted E5, E6 in the military that's barely getting by, that has to buy groceries this week, that has to pay that rent, that has to make that car payment, they don't have the luxury of saying, okay, great, I'll just skip one and I'll make it again.
They might only get paid once a month, but they have a...
They all have budgets.
They know when the money comes in.
They know when it goes out.
And to say you're going to have to wait another month for—and DFAS, I mean, you know this, the Defense Financing Accounting Services, isn't exactly the biggest whizzes on the planet.
And so I think that once some of these folks realize who is getting hurt, It may change this equation very differently.
It could be.
Well, and like I said, I've got to go back next month.
In fact, I've got to go.
It affects travel.
It affects everything.
You know this from your time in the Navy.
It affects orders.
It affects some, you know, especially.
And here's the interesting thing.
Most people don't realize that most of our pay and travel stuff are done by civilians.
And they're going to be furloughed.
They're not going to come in.
And then, by the way, you're not going to save any money in a shutdown either, by the way, because at the end of the, whenever this shutdown does end, even if it means Republicans siding with Democrats and passing something, there's going to be an attachment in there that says all back pay will be done.
So you're not gaining any money.
It's funny, though.
Again, we could go on on this, but it is interesting to see who gets screwed in this.
The contractors really get screwed in this.
And some of these guys, I get, people might not have the most sympathy for, but a lot of things that are done in the federal government are done by people who are almost permanent contracts.
But those guys, because of the mechanism that the contract is done by, almost entirely cannot get paid back.
Yeah, let's switch gears.
I mean, like I said, we could do this every night for a while because it's just going to be interesting to see how it goes.
Let's switch gears.
Tonight, today's Wednesday, from podcast today to tonight, you got the debate out in California.
I just sort of call it, the guys and gals are going to debate.
Nobody, you know, so, and you're going to have a shrug, you're going to have Donald Trump in Michigan.
What did you see coming?
I'm curious from your perspective.
Did you see anything...
That inherently tells you that there was a movement.
We haven't seen necessarily.
From the first debate to this debate, everybody said, well, Donald Trump should have gone.
He should have gone.
We could debate that for years.
You know him like I do.
He wasn't going.
It didn't hurt him.
His numbers are stronger than they were then.
What do you see coming from the seven that are approved for this debate making any kind of a headway or difference?
Yeah, let me just first address the thing you said.
First of all, I've been an advocate that he shouldn't go.
I mean, any political consultant who had a candidate that a lead like he does, who served two terms, who served as the nominee twice, would be nuts to tell their client to go.
I mean, you just would serve as a punching bag and there's no purpose.
So, I kind of, I do think at some point, if it gets closer and enough candidates drop out maybe before Iowa, potentially, but right now, absolutely not.
I think this is a TV show tomorrow night, you know, tonight.
It's going to be seven candidates up there.
But what we did last time after this was rearrange the deck chairs.
Trump kept his 50 plus percent.
And among the remaining 50%, we just rearranged it a little.
So DeSantis went down a little.
Nikki Haley went up a point or two.
Vivek Ramaswamy went up a point or two.
But there wasn't any erosion in the Trump support.
This was just those guys trading with each other.
Tonight, to some degree, I think DeSantis and Nikki Haley probably have the two biggest opportunities.
DeSantis has a lot to lose.
Major donors, which are funding his campaign in a super PAC, need to see somebody up there that looks like they can take on Trump.
I don't think it'll move the numbers, but I think they want to see it or they're just going to move their money.
And I think that a lot of people were intrigued by Nikki last debate, and she has another opportunity to come out and show that she could be that alternative.
If DeSantis fades, she could be a cent.
That's what I'm looking for more than anything else because I just – I think the last debate, Vivek, was intriguing to a lot of people.
I think it was almost like a flash in the pan.
There's a lot of excitement.
He says a lot of the right things.
I just don't know that he's – I think he's got a ceiling.
And then Christie, I think it's just – he's got the kamikaze vote.
And I don't see Pence really picking up much.
So those are the two that I'm watching for.
Yeah.
It's going to be interesting.
It's surprising to you.
Look, I served with the governor.
I served with Ron for six years, sat right beside him in the Judiciary Committee.
You know, we've gotten know each other.
We came in together.
It's still a surprise for me, his run.
I mean, he's done very well as governor.
But Those donors are leaving.
You already saw one of his major donors.
Can I ask you this?
Not to flip the cards here, or the table on you, but there was a...
Oh my gosh, one of your colleagues who also sat next to him in the judiciary was very critical of him.
Did you share that view that he was not really talkative or personal, or did you develop a relationship with him?
We had an okay relationship.
Like I said, we sat there, we came in together.
He was very quiet.
He was not the...
Sean, you've been around politics a long time.
There are people who get elected that you look around and you say, how do they relate?
How do they win their district?
And not to say that Ron wasn't, but Ron was not...
He was just a quiet guy.
He would participate when he would go in.
But it was never one that you would just walk in a room and, you know, there's Ron DeSantis kind of thing.
It was steady and far.
And so I was a little bit shocked.
I mean, I don't think Washington fit him, and I think the governor's mansion has.
I think that's a good way to look at it.
But the speaking style and that has not really changed.
I mean, that's...
And so when I see some of these, it doesn't surprise me.
But then again, he's been elected governor.
He's been elected everything else.
So, yeah, it's...
But it does...
It is telling, though, that Florida, for me, that none of the delegation in Florida...
Except for one, who actually he appointed to the Secretary of State's position, have endorsed him.
I thought that was really...
And it's interesting also to see the split with him and Matt Gaetz, because if you remember, Matt was one of his biggest, biggest, biggest cheerleaders.
Oh yeah, he was his debate sparring partner.
Oh yeah.
I mean, and they sort of parted ways there.
I do have a question for you though.
Given DeSantis, and let's talk DeSantis a minute, because we just saw a poll that came out last week, had him fifth in New Hampshire.
Fifth.
Okay, now they're sort of moving everything.
And this is a campaign with Axiom, Jeff Rowe, and the Never Back Down, and all these PACs.
And his campaign side has not raised a ton of money than the PAC has.
But they spent, depending on how you want to count the numbers, they're upwards of between $50 and $100 million they've spent already.
Okay?
And he's doing nothing but going backwards.
Right.
I mean, are they at a Hail Mary?
Is the Gavin Newsom-Ron DeSantis debate in Georgia with Sean Hannity in a couple months, is that the Hail Mary they're looking at?
I mean, they're desperate, it looks like.
Well, I think that might be a pre-play.
The Hail Mary is, they're all in in Iowa.
And they believe that if they win Iowa, I've talked to his team, they believe that if they win Iowa, it changes the game.
Same way that Chris Christie believes that if he wins New Hampshire, it changes the game.
And I think they're right.
But that's what you're betting on.
So you're putting everything on the line.
Now, I don't see any other sell, right?
So I think that I would say this.
If Nikki Haley and or Tim Scott, I actually don't believe that both of them will make it to the South Carolina primary.
But similarly, if they were to stay in through the South Carolina primary and not do well, how do you go on?
I have always maintained that this entire race...
Will likely, very likely, be wrapped up by the end of the four early states before we head into Super Tuesday.
Now, the caveat is that if DeSantis does pierce the veil and wins Iowa, I think he lives to fight.
And I think that New Hampshire number changes real quick.
I mean, look at what Biden did in South Carolina once Clyburn's endorsement.
He was left for dead initially.
I think that's the whole thing.
The early states can propel you.
They don't guarantee a win.
You've got to be able to sort of take advantage of those opportunities.
But I think DeSantis' entire team is banking on the fact that he can win Iowa or come in a very close second and then make the case to donors, see, this guy, this Trump guy who you've been talking about, who everyone proclaimed was inevitable, isn't, I can do this, give me more money.
Yeah.
It's the old Rocky IV when he's fighting the Russians and he cut him.
See, I cut him.
He's human.
He's not a machine.
He's a human.
But here's the problem, though, Sean.
I agree with you up to a point.
But Trump's numbers in Iowa aren't moved.
Haven't moved.
Not in New Hampshire.
They ain't moved.
I mean, unless by December.
Here's the thing about Iowa.
Iowa takes, you know, a record turnout would be 180,000.
So if you can get 50,000, you're probably going to win it.
And You look at the people who've won it, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum.
We're on DeSantis' campaign.
I was out there at the fair.
I've talked to the governor.
I've been on the ground.
They will give the Trump campaign a ton of credit for where they've come since 2016, 2015. And then they give DeSantis' team a lot of credit in their organizing strategy.
This is like a massive student council election in Iowa.
So, and the same thing, New Hampshire is obviously a primary, but it's a turnout operation.
And I mean, think about in Iowa, you have to stand in a hall or a school or, you know, for hours.
That's commitment.
So you can have support.
But you have to have real support.
Someone's going to sit in that hall and move around from wall to wall and corner to corner as things get whittled down.
So that's why I'm saying, like, if you're DeSantis and you can just chip away at getting, you know, a couple hundred more a week, you know, you have a shot.
And I think that that's what their team is focused on, is saying, great, all we need to do Is chip away and get enough people that are willing to commit and make us not only their first choice, but their second choice, etc.
Two points I want to make.
One is, I've noticed this recently in President Trump and how he's been campaigning in Iowa and campaign South Carolina.
When he goes out and he does the speeches, but then he does the...
Well, you and I both know his retail.
When he goes into the pizza places, when he goes into those places...
I'm sorry.
In a Republican primary right now, I was a little different because of the caucus.
But I mean, that's the Donald Trump that's frankly not beatable.
That's just him.
He's not beatable.
If he sticks with that, it's going to be very interesting to see how all that plays out as we go forward.
The other thing is, and I have...
A curious thing, do you believe that there is an underlying not being said that because if you look at some of the numbers in previous campaigns, you've had people drop out already in previous cycles with numbers even better than some that are out there.
Is there an understanding about some of these campaigns that are still polling in single digits that they believe that the legal issues of the former president All we got to do is just stay in here.
These are false numbers because once trials happen or anything else, then we're going to be here.
We're the ones because they believe in somehow that he won't be there.
I know they don't say that out loud, but it's got to be thought about.
I think that's entirely it.
I think a lot of these guys are basically, you know, to tap into your NASCAR teams down there, this is drafting.
These guys are just like, okay, we're just going to sit behind the number one car, and we think that they're going to crash or run out of gas, and then we'll be there.
That's absolutely it.
Also, once the big cloud is lifted, then even if I'm number four or number five, I'll get some real attention.
But again, it's amazing to me because I think that if that's your strategy, which I think it is, you're really betting a lot on a huge shift that is just not inevitable by any means.
Yep.
A couple more questions, Sean, before we get going here.
The first one is, though, taking off what you said earlier, though, about, and I agree with you, I think this could be over by the middle of March, okay?
I really do.
If you look at the numbers and Trump does what I believe Trump's possibly going to do in these races, by Super Tuesday, it's over, okay?
You just should not go anywhere.
But here's an interesting question.
Let's say that after that, because most of these legal trials, again, most of them unfounded, most of them got a lot of problems with them, and they don't have to go to trial.
Are not going to be settled until after that time.
It's always talked about by the press.
It's almost like they're wonderlust that a brokered convention comes into play.
Where does this go if you've got a bulk of delegates?
Do we get into that narrative?
And especially if Trump doesn't back...
You and I both know the president pretty well.
I mean, he's not going to drop out...
At all.
So we went through this in 2015. I wrote about it in my first book, The Briefing.
Most of the delegates are bound, meaning that they can't do certain things according to the state rules.
Also, the parliamentarian can only...
I mean, it's a great cocktail conversation.
It's a great thing.
It's not going to happen.
If the president or the nominee doesn't drop out willingly It's not going to happen.
And anybody that's watched Donald Trump for five minutes, and I think that's probably a stretch, knows that he is never going to drop out, okay?
So I think that barring that happening, Any talk of a brokered convention is sort of like when you always hear, what if the Electoral College tied and we went to the House?
It's fun to talk about on a Saturday night over some drinks, but it's not a reality.
Actually, I would say that the Electoral College tying is a much greater likelihood than a brokered convention because there's actually a statistical possibility of that happening.
The rules don't really permit with a nominee a brokered convention.
Yeah, and I wanted you to get that out there because a lot of people believe that, you know, this is the binding.
Trump would have to actually drop out.
Right, but Doug, this goes back to, you know, we started this conversation talking about my show, The Sean Spicer Show, which is available on Apple Podcasts and YouTube.
Part of the reason I do this is because I hear these things the other day about, you know, like brokered conventions and, you know, the nominee will do this and Michelle Obama is going to run on the Democratic side.
And if you don't understand the rules and you don't take the time to do it, then that's the problem is that we get sold a bill of goods or I heard this thing that this is going to happen.
It's like, nope, it's not going to happen.
Here's how delegate allocation works.
Here's how, you know, what it takes to become the nominee.
And then here's what it would take to get rid of the nominee.
But if you don't understand the rules of the game, It's like watching a football game and saying, hey, those guys scored two field goals, so they're going to win the game.
And it's like, okay, well, the other team just needs to score one touchdown and they're already ahead.
But if you don't know the rules, then you can't actually make a smart and sound analysis of what's happening.
Yeah, and I think we're seeing that all over, unfortunately, now.
And there has to be some, you know, look, I know it's easier to say I'm an outsider.
I don't play by the rules and all this kind of stuff.
But at the end of the day, the unwritten rules of life and the written rules of politics will dictate a lot of what happens.
You can do it.
Alright, last question.
Dana Perino, former press secretary like yourself.
She's on the debate stage tonight asking questions.
What advice would you give as one press secretary to another who's now, she's been in media for a while like you have as well.
How do you think, what would you give Dana advice for tonight's debate?
Well, I would just start by saying I don't need to give Dana any advice.
She's one of the hardest working people.
I mean, I've known Dana a long, long time.
We're on Capitol Hill together.
And she works harder than anyone else.
And that's not just a throwaway statement.
She researches everything.
She studies.
She's meticulous.
The only thing I would say, and she knows this, so it's not advice to her as much as it is to everyone else, is let them, this is their debate, not yours.
No one cares what the moderator thinks.
Ask the issue, get out of the way, and allow that discussion to flourish.
She knows that, so this isn't a device for her.
But like I said, I feel very confident that she's going to do a great job because she works really hard and studies issues.
She knows what's on the mind of voters.
So I'm excited for her as a former press secretary to see someone like that get on stage and do it.
And frankly, this goes back to what I've been arguing for a long time, which is to get these professional news people, these moderators.
Dana's been in the game.
She's worked in the White House.
So we don't need a moderator that's a news anchor every time.
We can have Radio hosts and activists and leaders in the party moderate debates and then let organizations that care about the Republican Party's nominee, you know, The Daily Wire, The First, The Blaze, You name it, Breitbart, Daily Caller.
They should be moderating debates and being streamed for everyone to watch.
And then I always have this caveat that then C-SPAN would carry it.
So if you had cable, that would ensure that everybody could see it.
But I think we keep defaulting to this NBC, CBS, CNN model that does nothing to help our party understand the issues that are on the minds of voters.
Yeah, I mean, look, I would rather have, and I've been a part of these debates, so I mean, look, I don't think their number one calling on a debate is pretty stupid anyway, because they're not debates.
They're talking point, 30-second memos.
And so for me, what I would love to see is here, throw out, here's the topic.
Foreign affairs.
What is your view on Israel and how do you see America?
All of it.
Go at it.
But you notice when you asked me about Dana, that was my point.
The moderator shouldn't.
This isn't about them.
Throw out an issue.
Let the debate flourish.
I'm with you.
Put out an issue.
Tax reform.
Talk.
And then let them go at it.
Yeah.
And if they talk over each other, they talk over each other.
And then you bring them back in after a few minutes and you say, because at least they're actually having, I think Nikki Haley, you brought this up.
The reason I think Nikki Haley did well in that first debate was that she just basically said it and called out, you know, which is, you know, off the top.
And I'm sure she practiced it.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm sure she practiced it.
But it was, it came across as unscripted, although it's probably very scripted.
Mike Huckabee was on my show.
He had a great suggestion that he told the RNC, which is these things that you should start the debate.
Let's just hypothetically, for audience sake, say that you have an hour and you have six candidates and everybody gets 10 minutes and your clock goes down every time you talk.
So if you run out of time early, You're done.
If you manage it well, you can.
I mean, but like you make sure that everybody's got equal amount of time.
They're the only time and it's equal.
And I actually love that idea because it involves some strategy on behalf of the candidates.
They have to think about how to manage their talking points.
If they want to waste a ton of time talking about a particular issue that they care about, that's great.
But they know that they're up against the clock and that if they waste time, That's going to be held against him.
So I think that there's a lot of reform that can and should have been done.
And it's unfortunate how it ended up, you know, at this stage.
That's it, folks.
That's why you go to the Sean Spicer Show.
You can get it on Apple Podcasts.
Anywhere you get your podcasts, you can go find Sean Spicer Show on the 1st as well.
Always a friend of this podcast.
Always a friend that we've known each other for a while.
Go back.
Sean, it's glad to have you on the podcast today.
Thanks, Doug.
Congrats on everything you're doing.
Thanks, guys.
All right.
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